| IVOD_ID |
16820 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16820 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
29 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-17T08:36:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-17T11:41:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:04:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eab29573f7f40ddb36c2e91769a1d91c6180a0af5ed963d0f586dc16c1b5a93f3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結專案報告案計2案。(一)原住民族委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第1目「一般行政」預算繼續凍結2,000萬元專案報告，請查照案。(二)原住民族委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第9目「原住民族教育推展－原住民族教育協調與發展經費」預算繼續凍結5,000萬元專案報告，請查照案。【預算解凍案如經院會復議則不予處理。】二、審查「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」等4案：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。(四)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:36:41 - 11:41:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1911.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1923.872 |
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大家早安請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員7人已足法定人數報告委員會我們現在開會進行報告事項首先我們宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1925.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1943.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第28次全体委员会议议事录时间114年6月30日星期一上午9时6分至11时28分地点红楼202会议室出席委员麦玉珍委员等11人列席委员郑天才委员等4人请假委员委员黄建斌丁学忠苏强慧等3人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1943.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1962.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
并席官员、原住民族委员会主任委员曾志勇暨相关人员、内政部、法务部、教育部、经济部、交通部、卫生福利部、文化部、国家发展委员会等机关代表暨相关人员、主席牛昭纪委员许婷。报告事项宣读上次会议议事录决定确定,讨论事项依审查行政院行情审议平补原住民族群身份法草案案。 |
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1964.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1982.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
审查委员林一景等22人委员赖会员等21人分别拟据评补原住民族群身份罚查案讨论事项和并寻答委员林一景赖会员书面说明提案要旨原住民族委员会主任委员曾志勇报告委员林一景等12人质询由原住民族委员会主任委员曾志勇及相关人员答复说明 |
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1983.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2011.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束委員張志倫高金素梅蘇巧惠丁學中所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關與一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議以上個案均另定期繼續審查條文已宣讀宣讀完畢好謝謝請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有沒有好我們議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2012.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2039.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
现在进行讨论事项请宣读一处理114年度中央政府总预算有关原住民族文汇预算冻结专案报告第二案原住民族文汇含为114年度中央政府总预算决议减送第一幕一般行政预算继续冻结二千万元专案报告请查照案二原住民族文汇含为114年度中央政府总预算决议减送第九幕原住民族教育推展原住民族教育协调与发展经济 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2040.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2066.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
與發展經費預算繼續凍結5000萬元專案報告請查照案二審查平埔原住民族群身份法草案等四案繼續審查行政院行情審議平埔原住民族群身份法草案繼續審查委員林一錦等22人你據平埔原住民族群身份法草案繼續審查委員賴慧媛等21人你據平埔原住民族群身份法草案審查委員鄭天才等19人你據平埔原住民族群身份法草案宣讀完畢謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2070.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2091.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們今天審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結專案報告專案報告案 業經本會於114年5月22號第11屆第三會期第21次會議決議 令定期繼續審查另外 平埔原住民族群身份法草案業經本會於114年6月30日第11屆第三會期第28次會議決議 令定期繼續審查原此本次會議繼續進行審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2100.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2123.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分我們張宏祿召委黃婕委員王美惠委員吳祁銘委員高金樹梅委員徐宇貞委員還有鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2126.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2150.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
觀眾朋友 今天我們討論原住民的相關事項我們原住民組委員會 曾志勇 主任委員好 各位委員會報告一下因為我們本日議程有新增的審查法案就是鄭天才委員有新的版本所以我們請提案委員要說明提案要旨我們請鄭天才委員說不說明 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2151.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2151.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
沒有同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2176.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2179.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
對於基本設施維持費有凍結百分之八那確定拿掉請問一下百分之八的額度是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2199.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2226.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
大概是5000萬那這5000萬你們以前以來都是怎麼用也是撥給我們鄉區公所也是撥給鄉區公所那最主要是看他們災害的部分比如說像今年的剛剛的那個颱風那這個是比如說像那個南馬廈桃園茂林 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2227.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2247.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
還有滿洲這個受傷比較嚴重那當然我們有一些經費就希望屹住在這裡在很即刻的幫忙他們所以是由園民會直接對所以這個就是在你們一般行政向下的部分嘛對不對災害準備金叫做這個是吧對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2249.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2271.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
類似災害就是說基本設施維持費嘛我記得這是在基本設施維持費裡面嘛那其實呢主委我在救救你喔基本設施維持費它本來就是原民會應該要給鄉公所的每年長期以來每年長期以來都有嘛是不是那這一次這個凍結百分之八的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2272.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2297.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就剛剛講的就是希望說有發生一些像災害尤其是災害啦我們希望臨時事故我們希望我們能夠就是說很快的來協助鄉可是問題是這以前本來就是他們的預算啊對我們那從以前從來沒有你們園民會苛扣他們8%我知道只有這一次園民會特別苛扣了這幾個地方的8% |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2299.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2325.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我跟委員報告我們以前我還沒有來以前就有這樣的就一流了沒有耶 就我了解你們都是給都是做給原鄉的這些因為這個所謂的基本設施維持費我講白了從蘇貞昌最早的時候我當立委我們整個鄉公所 鄉長去找他要的嘛一直維持到現在嘛原因是因為長期以來原鄉的這個經費不足是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2329.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2337.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為我們在統籌分配款的部分在原鄉地區是不足的所以我們希望中央能夠另外再給原鄉地區這些所謂的基本設施維持費 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2342.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2366.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
沒有錯吧我講這個歷史淵源沒有錯吧既然是這樣長期以來都有那我希望你們這個百分之八拿掉好不好你不要因為今天就是高雄有這個災害然後你覺得是OK那我們覺得其他的鄉也應該拿掉你讓尤其是這一陣子是風災最多的時候你看到新聞了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2368.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2383.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
馬上好他第二個風災又要來颱風就要來了那他會到哪裡不知道所以是不是你在這邊可以跟著我們所有的55個原鄉的地區的公所來保證這筆錢一定會給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2386.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2408.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我想我跟委員在這裡做報告說我們一定會這個本來就是要給地方是不是允許容許我們就是說我們來徵詢一下鄉區公所先讓我們跟他們做一個徵詢是不是如果把這個錢全部撥下去了那未來有一些災害如果一些緊急狀況我們就不知道要怎麼樣來你明明會有災害預備金啊你怎麼會這麼說幕僚你們不要在那邊隨便亂交主委啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2418.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2443.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好啦我們不要浪費那麼多時間啦所以主委你現在能不能告訴我就是現在取消百分之八這個部分我們這樣好不好我也我們即刻來檢討啦那我們也珍惜鄉區公所的意見我相信尤其是幾個民興災區啦比較容易受災的這個鄉區公所我們也尊重他們啦那這個是我們的這個所以你的意思苛扣這百分之八你是要重新分配嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2444.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2461.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不像以前這樣子按照這樣的模式分配下去嗎我跟委員講從以前就有預留一些就是說我們準備就是有一些緊急的時候我了解了但是也沒有到那麼多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2462.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2487.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
來 那個 是不是讓那個 處長說明一下好 處長你說明一下就從過去有機車費開始 原民會就一直有預留這樣的一筆經費主要是因應鄉鎮市區公所他們的一些緊急需求我知道 但是那個時候你們並沒有用文字 用公文給是 我們本來就想說要大家都是有一個默契嘛可是你們這次是特別行文嘛所以才會造成原住民的立法委員 尤其我 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2488.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2497.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為我很清楚這筆錢是我跟鄭天才兩個人去蘇貞昌當行政院長的時候 對吧那個鄭委員 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2499.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2528.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
張俊雄開始到蘇貞昌總共調了兩次耶所以我們很清楚知道這筆預算這筆預算等於就是鄉公所跟區公所他們口袋裡面中央不足的部分他們在在有一些運用的所以長期以來真的是對他們來講是非常重要的一筆預算那以前從來沒有用行文的規定要扣多少但是你們這一次特別用行文的規定好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2528.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2546.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那所以我這樣子我們就百分之八這個拿掉然後你說你要去跟那個公所他們溝通好不好然後你看五千多萬來講也不少啦所以呢希望如果今天這樣同意的話那這筆就OK好嗎我們就這樣處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2550.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2576.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好 謝謝高精素美委員請王美蕙委員主席 在剛才討論的時候看得出來以前民進黨的行政對關注民的照顧所以說在長久以來 鄭天才立委跟高精素立委不管是什麼人都委託關注民 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2579.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2604.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
關心和照顧,我相信我們在座不是關注民的那一套但是看到關注民的身口,我們也應該去協助、去倒三角但是剛才我聽到我們的主委說明星災區我聽起來覺得很感厚,尤其在最近嘉南的災害,說實在聽到明星災區 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2607.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2618.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主委 這個明星災區 後來不要再說一句 真正的災區對當地人都實在是很健康的還有在這個規定當中 我覺得剛才有說到這八八的問題說可以保護他們的公所 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2633.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2651.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我的意見是說,這次的災害在加以觀、阿里山區、在沙窟的關主民是管政府、內協組員、還是你們的關主民,有人到三天以這次 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2653.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2664.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你回答這次 前一陣子前一陣子你不要講 跟這次的經營你怎麼用是不是有什麼問題沒有請主委你講一下 民生災區不要再講了好 不好意思我們不是民生災區 不會再講民生災區就是經常頻繁發生災區的地方那這次阿里山 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2680.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2683.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
改善不是這樣,覺得這樣很粗糙的,這樣是很不好的來,那個最近發生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2690.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2711.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
阿里山這次阿里山的部分齁他還是就是連絡道路就是這個坡路到那個坡路中間這個連絡道路有攤房是有的有攤房但是現在都已經清除掉了當時他也有停電他也有停電我知道清除掉我現在是說我先抓好你們原住民拿去做什麼啦你們的單位拿去做什麼關心什麼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2717.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2724.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我不知道清楚還是沒有 我今天怎麼...百官百鄉經常在說的 去說到...跟二官這個阿里山苦茶 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2728.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2747.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我是說你怎麼關心啊好好來來來 組長包委員我們這次針對災後復原重建我們有三項措施第一個是提供臨時工作機會第二個是修善住宅補助每戶最高12萬第三個呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2748.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2760.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
是有關急難救助每戶最高是兩萬另外還有原住民中央發展基金的融資部分化的利息的減免三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2761.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2774.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
在這三項裡面 本市要來提供意見現在我們內政部委 包括這次立總統跟院長有支持之前的補助都是兩萬 五千 兩萬這次調整到五萬 你們要好下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2783.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2786.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
研究一下,因為這件事實在是很嚴重的,不能四點點說古代寶座這樣,就是這樣走,因為東西也都去過了,這件事也很嚴重的,所以你們的單位跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2799.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2826.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
主委你怎麼去了解不違法當中怎麼去協助他們這個這麼嚴重的受災害包委昨天剛好行政院陳金澤陳政委員已經邀請相關部會開會那據我所知內政部針對住宅休餐有救助措施啦那我想等行政院通過之後應該我們也會善用這個資源協助主人來申請這樣的救助 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2826.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2847.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好 義兄謝謝好 請問各位委員針對預算凍結案還有沒有什麼特別要補充或詢問的嗎好 那我們要做決定囉請問各位委員這兩案我們是否均同意動之讓他解凍同意好 謝謝那我們就委員會無異議均同意動之我們就提報院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2849.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2860.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好謝謝那我們預算解通案到此為止現在我們處理法案報告委員會現在進行法案處理請宣讀新增提案條文若有修正動議以及附帶決議我們請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2864.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2886.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
委員鄭天才等19人提案名稱及第一條同行政院提案第二條行政院設平埔原住民族群委員會為本法至中央主管機關其組織另以法律定之不受中央行政機關組織基準法規定之限制前項機關設立前本法鎖定事項由原住民族委員會辦理第三條至第21條均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2887.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2915.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
第二十二条第一项为平普原住民族群语言及文化之保障准用原住民族语言发展法及原住民族传统智慧创作保护条例其余同行政院提案第二十三条政府应以本法实行后三年内充分考量各平普原住民族群与其成员之历史发展脉络及现况并斟酌国家资源分配制定平普原住民族群基本法等法律或修正相关法律保障其政治参与交通水利 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2915.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2943.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
卫生医疗经济土地及社会福利等权利第24条同行政院提案修正动议1第10条第二项前项审议会委员应为11人至23人任意性别委员不得少于总额三分之一其余同行政院提案提案人委员王美惠等4人修正动议2第二条本法所称主管机关在中央为行政院在直辖市为直辖市政府在县市为县市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2944.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2970.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
提案人委员高金素美等四人附带决议有关本法第23条规定三年内应制定或修正相关法律以保障平普族群权利一事未落实立法意旨请主管机关于本法实行后六个月内盘点并提出应办理法律制定或修正事项之具体细目规划执行其成及分工机制以加速平普族群权益推展提案人委员高金素美等四人宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2975.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2999.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
謝謝提案條文修正同意附帶決議我們都已宣讀完畢所以我們現在進行討論我們請問一下這個委員會各委員我們要不要進行大體討論不用還是直接進主條好謝謝那我們就直接進行主條的協商那我們現在進行主條協商那我們就坐在一起吧今天這樣討論比較快麻煩一下大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3065.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3086.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好那我們現在開始逐條討論齁那個我們就以院版為母版嘛對不對然後各個委員的版本參酌對照這樣可以嗎好首先名稱法案名稱平埔原住民族群身份法請問各位有沒有意見這大家都一樣沒有沒有意見那我們就通過來第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3091.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3100.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
各提案條文內容都相同認定平埔原住民族群保障平埔原住民身份認同權特制定本法請問這條大家有意見嗎沒有第一條第一條這個都一樣啦沒有好我們就通過囉好不好照原本通過好 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3114.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3135.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第二條,主管機關,這個大家要有一點分歧按照院版的說法,主管機關在中央為原住民主委員會在直轄市為直轄市政府,在縣市為縣市政府那林一景委員等人提案,賴慧媛委員等人提案,跟行政院版本相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3136.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3153.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
鄭天才委員等人提案是說要設平埔族群委員會那我們剛剛這邊又有修正動議這個高金素美委員提的修正動議是說主管機關在中央應為行政院顯然大家意見比較不一樣那麼針對第二條的部分我們現在請各位發表看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3155.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3174.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們王美惠委員然後林益菁委員主席然後再高菁委員好請主席謝謝在這裡我覺得文化最主要的規範平埔族關注民的新聞的認定另外也要規定辦理平埔族社會和經濟的總統的調查為何保存和發展平埔族文化的認定和 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3184.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3184.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
但是不管本法是不是在這個期間來成立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3191.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3216.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這些工作人員都一定要做的原住民會是不是有所謂完成準備包含增加多少人經費多少人力要如何如何盡進去使用請原住民會說明一下因為是不是做這個也要調整以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3220.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3243.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝林益菁委員然後高菁委員我們待會委員講完我們政府機關同意回答好不好高菁委員之後是政天才委好 林益菁委員有請好 謝謝主席主席現在是第二條還是第一條第二條那不好意思我晚到我可以第一條也補充說明一下沒關係第一條大家都第一條都一樣都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3245.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3274.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
沒關係 如果只要講一下 留個記錄是不錯的了解了解好好 謝謝 謝謝我想是這樣的 今天的法案審查我想我一開始先要聲明立場就是說我是強烈支持就是我跟吳麗華委員等人有一同提出直接對原住民身份法的修法我想高基金委員也贊同來保障評估原住民的身份認同權益因為憲法法庭當初判決的時候有所保留留給行政機關跟立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3275.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3294.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
立法的空間就是說直接修原住民身份法或修身份法專法都可以所以才變成今天我們用評普原住民族群身份法這個草案的這種情況那從另一個角度的思考就是說既然大法官並沒有裁決一定要立專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3295.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3311.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那我覺得我們就要來好好的審思是不是應該把吳麗華委員的版本拉進來一起審才可以對得起這次憲法法庭最完備的處理因為畢竟是本質上幾乎相同的東西都是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3311.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3326.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
都是要照顧評普原住民族的身份認同權啦那我想說再強調一次就是說評普原住民族的身份認同它經過大法官憲法判決的民文保障那我覺得作為立法者真的要絕對來落實這樣的判決結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3329.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3352.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那所以今天我們選擇在憲法這個判決的框架下來進行這個法案的審查那我想該有的身份的這個認同保障就絕對要周延所以回復權利這件事情我覺得就是要有毫無區別的保障我想某程度應該是要這樣子才能回應這個判決 憲法法庭的判決那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3354.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3366.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
最後我再提一下就是說因為我們現在這個法案名稱叫做評普原住民族群身份法那我是比較納悶的是說為什麼要加族群兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3368.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3386.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
為什麼不能直接就是用平埔原住民族來代之因為我們在我想主委應該很清楚我們在台南座談會的時候那個萬振雄長老就跟你強烈建議說不該寫平埔原住民族群族群這兩個字應該要拿掉否則他在法律上 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3387.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3403.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
就是有一些所謂的區分嘛你不把平埔原住民當作原住民來看所以我覺得如果可以把這個族群這兩個字拿掉那這樣子的話會感覺跟整個全部的原住民族是有共同政治的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3404.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3428.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
政治命運的民主啦所以我覺得是不是就是平埔援助民主這樣就好我想這個部分我再講一下那好 第二條不好意思第二條是這樣我覺得最大的爭議還是就是來自鄭天才委員他提案要設立這個平埔援助民主委員會那可是我覺得無論怎樣的立論就要把平埔援助民主跟人民會切開來管轄我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3431.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3451.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
不是很適、很妥適啦齁因為我們如果從憲法判決來看喔其實很明顯很明顯這個不該這樣子區分那我想簡單講一下就是說在憲法法庭111憲判自第17號判決的判決理由他的理由書的第27段大法官有指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3452.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3477.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
大法官解釋憲法應隨時代進步 哪年時代脈動做出因應符合時代需求的解釋不該拘泥於這個憲法部分條文用於形式也不該用於修憲過程的字字片語自使這個憲法保障人權的本質那這個重點在哪裡 重點就是憲法跟憲法解釋都是寫要保障人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3478.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3500.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以我覺得我們應該有新的進步的寬容的展現那所以我覺得在憲法法庭這個判決有書都已經有明確表示還沒有身份的其他的台灣原住民族領印在身份認定上被認定為都是原住民所以我覺得就沒有設立平埔原住民族委員會的必要性以上 謝謝好 那我們按照剛剛的順序好不好接下來是高金委員然後鄭天才委員然後黃婕維OK |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3508.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3509.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們讓政見者委員先吧好非常謝謝大家第一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3519.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3547.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
刚提到这个是不是要从修正原住民身份法这个部分因为宪法的判决是给了两条路一个是修原住民身份法另外一个就是另制定专法所以行政院经过召开很多场的人民会到各地区开了很多场的说明会 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3548.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3574.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
包括平埔族人的說明會也包括了原住民的說明會所以他們後來採納了憲法判決的第二種方法就是另制定專法這是第一個那修原住民身份法行政院曾經提出在第九屆這個很重要請大家聽一下行政院在第九屆立法院第九屆的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3576.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3602.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
提出過修正原住民身份法針對平埔原住民在106年開始內政委員會審查審查完出委員會從107年送到院會當時民進黨是集於絕對多數那是行政院版本喔但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3604.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3626.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我不知道是什麼原因什麼理由但是並沒有把行政院版本二讀三讀從107年108年到109年的1月31號第九屆結束所以這個部分就必須要去去深思思考那既然現在行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3628.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3644.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
依憲法的判決送了這個令定專法也就是現在的版本所以我建議就是以現在的行政案的版本包括現在有的這些已經提案的一起來討論這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3646.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3662.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
第二個我的條文之所以會建議就是說另外成立平埔原住民族群委員會最主要就是說因為按照憲法的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3664.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3689.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個平埔原住民的相關的權益要另外去評估去考量去調查然後去決定他的相關的權利所以有這樣的一個情形之下如果我們同意讓他成立一個平埔原住民族群委會另外一個機關的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3691.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3718.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
對於平埔族人的權益的爭取保障會更好這個是我個人長期當公務員然後當立委之後的一個思考所以我才會提出這樣的一個條文因為也許大家會說為什麼都是原住民還要分成兩個機關呢我跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3719.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3747.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
曾經曾經陳水扁總統時代曾經政務委員建議要成立一個民主事務部民主事務部然後包含什麼包含原住民的業務客家的業務蒙藏的業務包括其他少數族群的業務當初我們原住民是反對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3749.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3755.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
事實上一個機關如果處理不同的潛意不同的族族的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3757.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3780.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這個當主任委員的或是當主管的都會常常會會有一些爭執內部啊會有這樣的一個情形所以我的我是認為說真正如果要去爭取保障平埔族人的潛意真的是要另外成立一個機關啊比如說就像同樣是這個漢族為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3783.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3807.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有閩南有客家我們就願意讓客家委員會成立這個就是有他的不同的地方就是因為有他的不同所以我們怎麼樣去加強他的權益的保障就成立一個機關這個是當然我知道很難被接受但是我願意讓大家知道說我的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3808.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3833.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
真的是包括後面的條文我都會繼續來跟大家做說明給大家做一個參考以上 謝謝謝謝 請高經緯人好 謝謝就我了解這個草案是從蔡英文到現在已經歷經了十年也歷經了我們的前主委 宜將主委還有現在的曾主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3834.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3844.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那麼我更了解的是曾主委對於這個現在行政院送出來的這個版本呢其實呢跟我們的總統賴清德也見過面所以呢我們現在討論的是行政院的版本那麼剛剛第一條呢名稱已經通過了然後現在我們來談的是第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3855.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3862.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
第二條我記得大家在六月底的時候這邊有非常多的內政委員會的委員們的質詢我們講得很清楚平埔族群的權益不是原民會一個單位就能決定的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3870.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3875.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
不管管是我們原住民的立委這樣認為紅路委員也認為很多在場的委員其實大家都認為這件事情是非常大的事情所以不會是一個園民會這麼一個小小的單位目前的園民會其實在整個行政院的體制裡面可能算是原住民裡面的一個幕僚單位而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3894.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3923.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以他很难做一些决定所以呢我觉得就是说行政院他应该要负总责要统筹的主要原因有三项那么我今天的修正动议大家看一下我说的主管机关是要放在行政院的原因是这样那么什么原因呢我提一下大概有三点第一个是人民会本来他的业务的能力就非常不足了 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3924.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3941.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
怎么可能还能够再扛住更多而且我们来看一下现在原住民族人口我们是占全台湾的人口2.59%理论上我们的中央应该要编列811亿给圆明会可是现在圆明会只分到126亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3943.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3966.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
只佔我們的預算裡面的0.39%更不要講原民會裡面的公務人員的原額到目前來講還沒有補足那麼說白一點原民會連現在原住民應該要有的我們的原額還有預算都爭取不到我們又怎麼樣能夠期待平埔族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3967.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3990.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
回來了之後 園民會可以幫他們爭取到應該要有的權益上一次主委就講大概第一波會有十萬人嘛對不對然後第二波第三波還會更多那所以呢我們認為平埔族的權力他其實是分散在一大堆的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3991.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4006.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
而人民會他根本也沒有所謂的統整的能力我們看一下評估的權利跟法律我們把它攤開來看一下我算過至少他算在了各部會包括什麼考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4007.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4020.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
文化部教育部海洋環境內政衛福等等這部會這些部會都關心到平埔族我們的鄉親們的權益這個一個園民會他怎麼能夠來做這件事情園民會調查出來平埔的權益涉及了多少個法條總共有127條的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4036.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4052.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
283條的法規命令我再次要請問一下大家一個園民會它怎麼能夠統合呢這樣子是一個非常大跨部會的工程如果沒有上級機關的行政院來統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4053.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4069.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我认为什么都推不动了我们必须要务实来看这件事情好了第三个我在讲就算有行政院他统筹我们的经验是过去其实呢这个法案就拖了十年了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4071.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4087.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
然后呢94年我们原基法通过的时候光是一个34条哦在34条里面我们也要求各机关在三年之内各部会要修法配合我们原基法哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4088.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4108.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
行政院呢透過原基法的推動會來追蹤結果大家知道嗎我們光是原基法通過94年的原基法的34條裡面花了10年才把一些各部會要修法的都配合完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4109.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4112.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
現在我們要叫園民會一個機關而且他緣額真的那麼少然後他要管那麼多的事情目前的事情都管不了了那三年之內在我們這個法條裡面有定三年之內我們的平埔族群要搞定他所有的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4130.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4138.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
還有我真的是在立法院已經23年了我真的平心而論大家好好的思考真的能夠在三年內來處理127條的法律283條的法規命令嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4148.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4152.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
至於經費更不要講了經費 園民會到現在我們的一公頃六萬塊的金髮補償還不知道從哪裡來所以我相信在場的真主委一定很頭大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4166.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4195.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以我覺得我的我剛剛說的修正動議的版本我們務實來看所以我才會參照離島建設條例我們讓行政院做主管機關那行政院來統整協商來給資源不然的話我認為平埔族群的保障他只會繼續淪為空頭支票以上我的補充說明謝謝謝謝高金素美委員黃教委員有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4197.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4219.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好那我認為第二條其實是這整部法裡面最關鍵的一條因為我們必須要依照憲判17號來來進行這一步法的討論所以我認為這一條大家花時間討論是很好的一件事情但是我在這邊還是要強調因為其實在裡面有兩個版本是一個是正天才委員的版本是希望另設平埔原住民族群委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4220.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4242.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那在高金委員的版本裡面是希望主管機關變成行政院那我覺得這個其實要想清楚就是說這部法修法的複雜之處最讓人家擔心的然後各界有疑慮的其實就是擔心說這部法到底修了之後是加深不同族群之間的隔閡還是讓大家可以獲得自己的身份認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4243.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4264.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以我希望等一下主委可以先說明的就是憲判17號的精神有沒有辦法透過這一條去展現因為其實憲判17號裡面精神就是說平埔族是原住民族平埔族是原住民族那既然這個意思這麼明確了所以我們這個主管機關是不是主管機關就是原民會 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4266.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4283.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個其實主委應該要跟大家說明是不是這樣才是能夠保障平埔族的身份認同最重要的一個關鍵喔那當然目前我們政院跟移情委員跟讓會委員的版本裡面都是直接說主管機關就是園民會 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4284.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4301.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那所以我覺得這個在這邊一定要清楚的釐清就是這個如果我們另外再拉一個評普的原住民族委員會會不會反而加深不同族群之間的隔閡呢那我覺得這個一定要要釐清清楚那其實我有把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4302.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4329.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就是你們開了好幾場座談會有徵詢大家的意見那我看到六月的時候其實在台南廠有開一場會議那裡面的記錄有很多主人有提到說他們覺得社會福利跟政治的代表的席次要怎麼設計都可以另外再討論但目前最需要的其實就是要明確肯認他們的身份要讓他們知道說平埔族群就是原住民這件事情要能夠被設計在這個條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4332.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4349.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那這個也是我認為憲判最重要的精神啦所以我覺得不管怎麼樣這一條一定要清楚的讓平埔族可以獲得這樣的身份認同所以我希望這一條希望大家可以在這邊有一個共識以上謝謝謝謝我們請蘇曉慧委員然後張璐召委蘇委員有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4354.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4362.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好 非常感謝在我前面這個黃姐委員還有高經委員的發言我覺得都很有道理啦那尤其剛剛高經委員有提到的這段話他說這個如果我們要處理這個平樸族原住民這樣子的一個長年的爭議議題身份認定的這個問題的話其實我們要修正推動的會有跨越非常非常多不同的部會以及處理非常非常多的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4382.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4404.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
沒錯 這確實事情確實是這樣這也不禁讓我想起上一次在跟這個園民會的質詢的時候我是不是就也說到了其實在現有園民事務 園民問題它本來就是方方面面所有原住民的事務本來就是從教育 文化 衛福 社政 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4405.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4411.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所有所有的通通都包括了所以一個園民會其實就是一個小行政院所以你們的人力夠嗎你們的預算夠嗎當時其實園民會也是笑笑點點頭這是一個這樣大家都知道的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4421.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4440.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
因為原額就是這樣多那預算就是這樣多但是要處理的事務那麼多好所以剛剛高進委員提到的平埔族原住民的問題沒錯啊我也同意問題有這麼多但原民會難道就沒有嗎這是第一個問題所以你現在把平埔族放到行政院之下那我們原來既存的16族 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4442.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4470.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那還要原民會嗎還是也要拉到行政院不然兩者不是又產生新的不公平嗎這不是有點奇怪嗎好在第二反過來講如果我們現在平埔原住民是一個我們要擴大我們的認同同意這個土地上其實就是有平埔族的朋友們他們也應該具有原住民的身份所以我們依照憲判把它重新身份確認之後那 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4472.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4498.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
他不就是台灣的原住民嗎只是他是平埔族的朋友啊所以他應該是跟原住民這個大家庭本來就是在一起的啊好所以我的論點是這樣我認為不管是現在大家所熟悉的原住民各族群又或者是我們今天在討論的平埔原住民其實都是台灣的族人台灣的原住民他們應該是一樣的他們在這些不管是權利義務或者種種的狀況那麼政府要給他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4502.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4529.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這些所有的措施其實都應該由同一個單位一起來執行這個單位如果現在不夠力應該是讓這個單位更大更有力嘛比如說比如說上次也有人提過啊我們是不是可以考慮在我們的政務委員當中是不是能夠增設一個讓我們的原民會主委兼政務委員所以這個原民會主委他就具有跨部會協調的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4531.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4554.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這是不是反而是比較容易解決問題的方法我們是很認真在討論事情要解決原住民朋友長期的困境的嘛那再進一步而言大家說行政院啦好你把主管機關放行政院坦白講行政院的事情有多少大家也不是不知道那行政院作為主管機關他能夠把全部的心力放在處理原住民朋友的身上嗎我覺得這也有一點難 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4556.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4579.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
事實上大家也知道行政院這個單位本身真正的員額有多少搞不好還沒有員民會多我不是很清楚我現在一時間查不出來可能大家可以看一下所以行政院大家聽好像很大但是行政院事實上他也還是要交辦各部會才能處理事務不是只是掛一個行政院三個字事情就會直接解決所以我是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4580.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4595.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
誠意的 務實的 懇請各位委員朝著要把事情做好的方向爭取原住民族人朋友包括平埔族原住民朋友的權益的部分大家認真的思考一下主管機關到底放在哪裡能夠把事情做好 謝謝謝謝 蔣惠委員 紅蘇早委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4603.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4628.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
其實大家講了很多可是我在這邊我還是必須要再說一下我們現在處理的我們台灣基友的原住民族跟現在平埔族我們今天這一個的判決他判決我認為他解決的只是基因上的問題他的DNA是流了什麼的血要去解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4630.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4648.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
但我們今天要解決的不只是這個喔我們除了解決基因上的問題之外它的文化傳承它的什麼這些東西我們有沒有考量在裡面如果你要單純解決基因認同然後去保障它這個問題好解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4650.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4665.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
但整個平埔族的文化或什麼的這個是要不要去保留?我跟你講你有基因是沒有用的你要有文化要有什麼的這個族群才能夠長長久久你基因很容易被同化 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4666.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4684.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我們也必須要承認平埔族是在台灣是很早就在這邊的他的基因其實有一部分已經被很多同化了我們台灣人有一句話其實平埔族的基因你說你要找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4695.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4704.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
百分之百的你是在台灣你其實我不知道有沒有啦但我們今天要解決的不是只有這個基因的認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4706.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4732.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你如果要單純從基因你根本齁跟原住民族是不一樣的概念跟我們現在台灣既有的這很多族這是不一樣的概念我要先提醒大家這個概念完全不同那再來平埔族的文化什麼的我們要如何去保存如何去這才是我們今天的我認為啦要解決平埔族群的最重要的核心點是在齁他的文化他的的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4733.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4759.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那它的文化什麼的我覺得啦大家不用拘泥在說這個主管機關或什麼的我覺得啦如果單純行政院要去行政院只是一個督導的你在上面弄一個委員會或什麼去督導這個各部會能夠做得更好是目前比較可行的啦那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4760.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4780.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
你如果要在行政院要再用一個什麼平埔族的委員會另外一個類似原民會的組織我認為不切實際啦這個也做不到啦所以我覺得大家要思考一下啦那當然原民會平埔族我相信你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4781.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4795.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
應該多多少少有了解啦但跟現有的原住民不管是幾個族我覺得那個概念是完全不一樣的那你們反而現階段要在原民會裡面你們要先用出 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4797.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4811.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
一個我看你們是要觸摸什麼的一個三級單位要來專責這個平埔族的我覺得這個是目前短暫最好的辦法大家思考一下大家想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4812.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4822.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好 謝謝 這個我們剛剛在座的各位委員都已經講過一輪然後我看那個我看我們那個主委筆記已經一大堆了剛剛我們再補充一下然後我們先讓園民會那個回答吧我補充一下其實我也同意剛剛草匯委員說的只是呢我們我記得在113年的時候園民會組織法第三條我們在修的時候我們其實就希望園民會的主委能夠兼政務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4834.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4860.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
的原因呢就是那個就是原民會要跨很多部會嘛但是就很遺憾就沒有通過啊當時你們沒有支持啊對不對好所以如果是這樣子大家可以思考因為這樣的問題大家來思考這樣我覺得也是好事好嗎謝謝這我也補充一句以前只有單獨原民會如果現在要把貧富卜族放進去其實他兼政務委員我覺得是OK的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4861.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4867.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
喔不錯至少我們開始有一點點共識了這樣蠻好的來我們先請鄭村委員說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4872.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4897.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
各位首先針對這個主管機關的部分那當時我們主要是考量兩點第一點就是說在憲判17裡面他有特別提到就是說現在這個所謂的平埔族群他是屬於憲法徵修條文第10條第11項第12項所講的原住民族那按照原民會的組織法其實原民會他主要主責的任務就是統合原住民族政策然後保障原住民族權利跟執行原住民族事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4898.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4914.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以當時我們認為說就在這整個行政院的體制底下負責原住民族政策的負責憲法第十條第十一項第十二項整個原住民族權力保障的機關就是園民會所以當時我們就把這個主管機關定為園民會這是第一點說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4916.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4943.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那第二點說明就針對王美惠委員有特別提到就是說平母族群進來之後我們的機關組織要如何調整以資源要如何去挹注到這個平母族群身上這個部分我們也是參考這個111年有兩個憲法判決它是針對原住民身份分別是第4號跟第17號其實這兩個憲法判決它都有一個特徵就是說像第4號它就特別提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4944.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4967.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
原住民身份跟他所想的優惠措施他並不是理所當然就是說可以直接牽連在一塊的那到了第17號他其實是寫得更清楚他是直接寫說有關這個平埔原住民族群的這個權利是要考量他的這個歷史條件並且斟酌國家的資源另一法律定制他就寫得更清楚他可能不會跟現行的原住民會完全一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4968.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4989.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他是按照這個平埔族群的實際需求跟他的社會狀況來決定他的權益保障的實質內涵所以在這樣的前提之下我們行政院辦做了幾個設計針對平埔族群未來的權益他做了幾個設計第一個設計就是我們在因為我們在徵詢這個平埔族群的意見的時候他們有提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4991.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5013.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
個人權利可以等但是集體權利不能等集體權利就包含了語言文化這個因為他們認為說語言文化不在了的話他們的族群就滅絕了所以我們在我們的院版的第22條我們就特別規定在本法通過之後呢平母族群一旦取得身份之後他就馬上適用原住民族語言發展法跟原住民傳統智慧創作保護條例這是第一個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5014.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5034.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那第二個設計就是說針對其他的權利包含就是說憲法徵修條例第四條第十一項第十二項所列舉的這個各項權利我們就會進行這個資源的這個盤點進行這個平母族群社會經濟生活的這個一個基本的調查所以在我們的第四條裡面有特別規定就是說我們要定期舉辦針對平母族群去舉辦這個社會經濟文化的這個調查根據這個調查結果去設計符合這個平母族群的這個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5042.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5069.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以未來這整個機關組織的這個組社跟這個資源的盤跟這個資源的挹注他會按照這樣的一個狀況去逐步的去落實那另外就是我們也知道說平滸族群他也不會第一時間就馬上說98萬個人都要來登記應該是逐年可能第一年10萬個人第二年又增加一些人所以他資源的投注也是按照這樣一個人口的增加去逐步做調整先做以上的說明來 主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5074.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5100 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
謝謝各位委員那最主要這個行政院已經設立延民會作為原住民的整個政策的統合機關那平埔原住民族群它本來就是原住民那本來就是應該是原住民的事務委員會來做一個來做一個整個的統籌那當然我們還是建議拜託委員就是採用這個行政院的這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5102.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5118.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
因為這也是最大的一個公約數了為免這個又跌闖嫁污齁我覺得就是說建議就是說因為平埔原住民族確實是我們自己原住民族我們必須人民會擇武旁貸啦齁那是不是是建議來採用原來的這個行政院的提案好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5120.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5146.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我看大家問題很多你回答好像有點精簡其實我幫這個我們在內黨委員講一下不管是把主管單位變成行政院或者是要成立新的委員會不外乎八個字嘛就拉高層級增加資源嘛對不對我們現在政府端雖然希望大家以院版為母版這我們都非常尊重但請問我們原民會到底有沒有什麼針對拉高層級跟增加資源的規劃你不能講我們比較容易達成共識啦好不好我跟謝謝主席我跟委員報告齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5149.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5166.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
有就是說平埔屬於平埔原住民進來之後這個經費支援的拉高這是必然的那這個不是原民會的責任這是整個就是國家要考量所有的這個他們的整體的這個盤點支援的時候要用這邊來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5168.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5183.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
不是說這個不是只有園民會一個會就能解定因為你增加了這麼多人不管是文化啦 語言啦一些預算一定會增加嘛一定會增加那當然園民會的預算就必須要增加啊那這個部分我想這個我們會跟縣裡面 縣也知道這個狀況這個部分我想要做這樣的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5191.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5200.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 請問各位還有沒有想法補充好 高清委員主委 你很有信心耶哇 我這邊聽你真的很有信心我真的是太開心了實際上是如此嗎 不是如此如果真是如此的話那麼今天行政院的版本出來它就應該要有一條寫這些東西啊讓大家放心嘛你現在看到是完全沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5215.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5236.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
對不對那只有在第23條的時候就是說三年內要處理掉所有的東西嘛這裡面都沒有講到預算啊那所以就是我坦白說啦今天行政院的版本其實在歷經快要十年這樣提出來還是提出這張版本這個本來就已經要被譴責了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5237.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5264.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
是不是那因為這個憲法法庭的關係所以我們就必須趕快要加快腳步來處理這件事情所以我的建議是這樣好不好那個第二條的部分因為其實整條法律案其實就是第二條跟第二十三條是最有爭議的所以第二大家有爭議我們就先保留第二條好不好然後呢我們繼續往下好嗎因為因為真的是有時間的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5264.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5290.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 謝謝高經委 正有此意那大家聽 我剛剛聽大家都說好好不好那我們第二條先保留 我們往下走 可以嗎好 第二條要保留來 第三條好像這個我們因為我手上有一份這個原住民族委員會有個條文對照表啦那他好像有講這個引用的部分到底憲法針對條文是幾項幾款嘛好像有一個引用的狀況我們是不是先請那個園民會說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5294.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5310.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
坐著講沒關係坐著講我想這部分是行政院版的物質所以我們應該是委員賴慧如跟徐慧文的提案是正確的是第四條第一項第二款好所以看引用的部分有物質嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5311.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5333.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
應該是第四條第一項第二款嘛一項二款嘛請問在場委員是不是大家都反覆確認過了好不好所以是按照賴慧園委員版本通過因為其他都一樣嘛對不對好那我們第三條的部分我們照賴慧園委員版本通過好第四條請問大家有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5336.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5353.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
沒有因為各提案條文內容相同那我們就照院版通過可以嗎好第五條請問大家有意見嗎沒有同樣因為各提案條文內容相同我們就採用按照行政院院版通過第六條請問大家有意見嗎請林議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5358.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5378.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
謝謝主席 在這一條我們想針對審查基準提出修正動議我們有看到在草案第五條 它說評估民族合定是要該民族的語言、習俗、傳統等文化特徵至今仍然存續而第六條是指出 至今仍然存續之審查基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5381.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5397.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那我認為說在西拉雅原住民身份案這個這則憲判的他的那個第26段憲判書裡頭第26段他有提到說未符合憲法徵修條文特與保障原住民族文化等之意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5398.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5415.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就原住民組織意義及保護範圍其認定應避免反於歷史事實國際保護原住民族潮流而施足過度嚴格所以應做較寬鬆的認定重點大法官就是說要 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5416.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5431.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
不能過度嚴格所以本席認為說在審查基準應給予寬鬆的這個看待所以我提出這則修正動議就是要把憲判理由書的這段文字加到第二項那目的當然就是要讓判決主文 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5433.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5459.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
就是說有這個客觀歷史記錄可積啊然後這樣子的話才能就是把這些主文嘛弄進去然後這樣子的話我們從寬認定比較有一個理由基礎那所以如果後當然啦後續的檢附資料怎麼樣認定你的身份當然不可或缺不過作業上我覺得真的要從寬從簡那技術讓被認定的原住民族獲得認定這樣好 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5461.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5474.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好 謝謝 這手上資料大家有嗎這個剛剛我們林一吉委員 剛剛我們內政委員簽名的修正動議有6 8 12 23 24齁這個確定大家手上都有嗎再照這一份齁 我們看一下好 我們請黃介委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5477.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5493.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好 謝謝我也想要呼應一下怡君委員的這一條因為這個我想要請主委說明一下因為在上一次質詢的時候我有特別問到尤其是這個裡面因為你在申請要成為平埔原住民族的時候你族人必須要自己證明說他是有文化特徵獨特性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5495.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5501.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那這個文化特徵獨特性到底要怎麼去證明我認為主委這邊應該要多加的說明因為其實在你們的立法說明裡面並沒有提到那其實根據憲判的精神確實是應該要從寬然後就是讓比較用讓他可以用鬆綁的方式去認定自己的獨特性而不是到時候你們列出一些有的沒的條件然後反而去阻礙了他們去證明自己說自己是平埔原住民族這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5524.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5542.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
而且那我還想還有一個疑慮就是說如果假設現在A族他們先去透過他們自己一些方式去認定他有獨特性了那B族其實跟A族有類似的有類似的一些特徵那會不會因此變成你們說因為A族先認定了所以你們B族沒有辦法透過這一條特徵去證明他自己我擔心的是會有這個衝突的問題所以你們應該要說明說接下來你們到底大概審查的方式是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5554.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5570.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
會不會有彼此競爭或者是你們會去用一些方式把人家篩掉這個是你們要多加說明的謝謝所以我認同這個移經委員的修法的這個修正動議應該要把憲判的這個精神放進去謝謝好謝謝我們請張侯路召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5573.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5596.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我不反對林一錦委員跟黃國健委員的看法不過我是先說第六條我建議如果要我們可以先保留為什麼我要說現有的原住民族的他們的比如說他們的豐年祭什麼他們的過年就跟我們不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5597.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5614.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
但平埔族大部分的過年就跟我們現在所有的台灣人其實是同樣的但他有保留他的一些不一樣的文化但全台灣我舉一個例子所有人幾乎都有拜地基族吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5615.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5643.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
對不對拜地基族其實這就是平埔族文化的延伸啊對不對那如果太今天來放鬆有拜地基族的都可以變成平埔族這一點我們要考量一下因為全台灣每個人都有拜但這真的這個就是平埔族的文化嘛所以你平埔族其實跟台灣這些在台灣生活的既有的文化其實很多都融合在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5644.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5663.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我不反對喔 我也支持林議警委員這個看法但如何去判定 如何去什麼我覺得我們要多多思考不然你到時候你到時候2350萬人齁我跟你講大概1800萬齁有敗地基組的都是平埔族喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5664.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5685.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我們在立法也要考量這一點所以我建議這條保留我認同林議員的看法但我們要再思考一下 我覺得保留其實我也同意洪祿委員所說的我相信剛剛洪祿委員所說的 其實大家也都 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5686.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5706.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
清楚知道我們所擔心的跟我們的看法那我就請園民會來回應一下目前我們最後兩族認定一個是拉魯瓦一個是嘎那嘎那夫對不對那是不是按照我們現在第六條的第一第二來做認定回復他們的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5707.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5728.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那如果是這樣子的話那個事實上 移情委員的修正動議的那一項其實呢 我們是不是不要放在法律裡面我們就把它放在附帶決議裡面然後讓這樣的精神也可以進去以上我的建議 謝謝好 這個粉絲也是同意 原民會這個來做一下說明好不好 來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5730.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5747.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
首先說明就是說林警委所提的這個修正動議的第三這個第三項修正動議它部分的文字是跟第四條剛剛已經通過了第四條的第二項是有部分文字是一樣的就是說避免防禦歷史適時及國際保護原住民族潮流 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5748.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5760.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那當然我們理解就是說這個修正都營它主要的目的是希望就是說因為平母族群過去400年因為它是它很多文化特徵已經消失了所以它希望就是說應該要做比較寬鬆的認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5762.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5786.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那但是如果說做這個修正動議我們會建議就擺在第十條因為這第十條是在審查整個皮姆族群的民族認定的時候第十條是一個比較程序性的規範那在這程序裡面有一個比較實質性的要求就是說在審查的過程當中應該要遵照這個修正動議的原則可能擺在第十條會因為這個不只是針對這個文化的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5786.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5803.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
甚至後面的這個歷史特徵等等的應該都歷史特徵或是維持族群認同甚至是客觀歷史紀錄等等的他可能都會適用這樣的一個原則這是第一個部分那第二個部分高經緯有特別詢問就是說當時阿魯阿根、橄欖谷是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5804.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5831.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
的審查的過程是不是也跟第六條的過程一樣確實我們當時雖然說並沒有明文的規定但是在審查的過程當中我們也是經過了委託學者調查調查的內容大體上就是他們的語言是不是存在他們的習俗是什麼有哪些傳統有哪些文化特徵等等甚至他們的生活領域等等的都做了一個調查之後當作一個佐證的基礎報到行政院去核定所以基本上我們當時過去從9組到16組都是依循這樣的程序去做認定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5834.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5850.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好 我們請紅路召委補充一下我覺得啦齁剛這處長他講的這個有一個觀點我非常不認同那如果你們原民會用這種的方式來處理這個問題我覺得你們會出很多的問題他剛說平埔族很多文化消失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5857.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5883.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我的觀點跟你完全不一樣是後來的移民被平埔族同化了他沒有消失是我們後來的移民你跟著被他同化了他的文化還在你們現在應該要分的兩個很清楚被同化現在全台灣很多的習俗文化什麼的哪一些是本來就是平埔族的只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5884.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5899.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
後來的移民完全被同化了然後還有一些特別的族群平埔族裡面特別的族群他們還保留原來更傳統的文化那些他沒有同化後來的人你這個歷史觀點跟這個立法的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5899.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5919.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我覺得我跟你完全不一樣那我覺得我看到的是一個歷史的事實那如果你們原民會是用這一種立場來做這件事情我跟你講今天審這個我覺得沒有必要了你們這種觀念是完全不對的林警委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5926.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5941.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
謝謝主席我想我因為剛剛有說明當然我這個修正動議是真的想把憲判的精神放在這裡面那當然要保留我也同意如果可以按照這個高薪生 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5941.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5958.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
委員的這個提議就是說辦用附帶決議的形式來展現那這樣子的話是不是更好那如果大家有共識是不是也請原民會擬個那個附帶決議的這個文字出來那大家來檢視如果可以的話是不是可以這樣來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5959.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5985.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好 我們請曾主委再補充一下尤其剛剛我們洪督召委講的用時尚確實要小心啦因為它其實確實是含化的過程互相影響融在一起嘛對不對 這是本席對這事的了解好 來 請主委好 謝謝委員 謝謝曾委員的這個指教我想我們會做一個就是希望最起碼有一個基本條件我們怎麼認定但是我們是用會有一個來審議會比較採用比較寬鬆的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5989.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5999.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
來認定我們的平埔族群這個部分我們的原則是掌握在這裡因為將來的認定是不是平埔原住民族這不是我們延民會在決定它會有一個審議會他們自己的族自己來選他們的人是不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6004.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6015.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
比如說我希拉雅是希拉雅一個審議委會來審你是不是希拉雅族群的人是這樣來的所以我想這個部分我們會堅持從寬的一個而且會比較寬鬆的來認定是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6023.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6046.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以我們用附帶決議的方式來處理可以嗎那我們是不是原民會來你這個把精神什麼的用很精準的文字因為也確定嘛剛剛原民會主委有承諾這是政策方向嘛寬鬆是政策方向嘛加上一個附帶決議讓大家更清楚好不好這樣大家比較比較有具體的成果好那條文的部分我們第六條我們還是在照院版條文通過大家有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6048.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6070.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
來 黃路委員請我覺得啦吼第六條其實大家都也沒有太大的反對都有共同的看法啦吼但我覺得附帶決議當然是一個一個方式啦但如果你跟他入法也是一個方式但入法當然是比較嚴謹啦吼我覺得是這樣啦吼那我個人是認為啦這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6074.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6095.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我認為是一個重要的法案,多討論一兩次我覺得沒有關係所以我覺得第六台要保留,我們也要給人民會一些壓力啊對不對,你附帶決議他們就沒壓力了啊那我覺得要給他們壓力啊,他們剛剛的歷史觀點跟那種主管機關觀點我真的非常不認同,要給他們壓力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6099.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6107.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
好沒關係附帶決定照你啦好不好但沒關係因為第六條反正我們今天就是把它先跑一輪我們再看狀況來做處理好不好那我們第二條一樣先保留可以嗎好再來往下走第七條的部分請問大家有意見嗎因為各提案條文內容相同啊也沒有修正動議嘛對不對那我們就照行政院版本通過可以嗎好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6128.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6134.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
第八條一樣有喔 我們第八條是不是林議員有修正動議好 我們就請您說明一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6135.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6162.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
好 謝謝主席這條是有關於原住民族認定的這個歷史記錄那我提出這個修正動議加入一則概括條款在第四款那內容就是申請民族之成員本人或其直系血親尊親屬於其他歷史時期之各項客觀證據有足以證明其屬於台灣南島語系民族之執訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6163.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6186.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那理由在於將客觀歷史記錄這個嚴格的限定證據的這個識格性那這種限制實在是太過度這個狹隘那忽略了他許多重要的這個歷史資料來源雖然說第三款學術研究資料或許可以補足這份缺陷可是他能不容易取得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6188.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6213.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
或者是否容易被人民得知這一點是存疑的喔那更何況台灣歷史慢慢長河或許有些人家族就留有幾百年的什麼原住民殖民者交易的這個私文書那這點好像就不一定有第二款或第三款的通格那當然它事業又可以作為一種身份認定的這個證據佐證所以本席主張加入這種蓋鍋屌管 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6214.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6240.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
就是讓更多歷史的證據可以被使用那也同時可以採用與否當然也要看審查會最後的決定那黃昭元前大法官他在憲判同意書結語他有指出只要是國家能夠維持戶籍登記制度並採任日治時期戶口調查部及後來官方紀錄為認定原住民的依據之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6240.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6262.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那所謂原住民組織自我認同原則就必然受到制約那我覺得為了使這份制約有所鬆綁並符合判決理由書的第26段講到的不能過度嚴格所以我覺得將其他足以證明 足之證明的這個客觀歷史記錄納入也才符合大法官意見書的看法那這項動議請大家支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6265 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6266.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果我們從這個行政院版的第八條來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6283.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6311.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個第一款第八條的第一項的第一款就說這個從那個日記時期的附集資料附集資料現在的原住民現在的原住民都只有一這個附集資料只有一附集資料 現在的原住民現在既有原住民身份的都只是一日記時代的附集資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6314.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6338.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
對 那現在現在要增加這個第二 第三 第四 這是之一喔第八條是之一喔 只要集中之一就可以囉好 我來說齁當初內政部所調查的所謂的98萬人他是一第一款而已喔他只是一第一款 附體資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6340.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6368.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
日記時代的他們估算算出來是不是估算算出來就98萬耶所以如果再加上二款三款四款那就更多更多這個是我們必須去思考的我們必須去思考因為這個未來誰都沒有辦法認定了誰呢就審議會就是自己決定就剛剛跟尊主委講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6368.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6396.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
CIR組就成立一個CIR組了就是所謂的專家寫者嘛一定是這樣誰有那個去那個去考古人沒有辦法就專家寫者所以這個部分這個是必須去思考也就是必須思考這個憲法判決裡面所考量的所以在這樣的一個情形之下就會衍生到我剛才講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6398.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6425.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
在一個機關裡面然後不同的不同的這個認定的方式然後不同的權益就會有這個因為我自己是老公務員當久了我才會說才會說成立一個自己的機關然後自己的立委自己的議員相關的權益的爭取我都提啊憲法申修條我也提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6427.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6436.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
平埔原住民的立法委員我也提了我也提案了平埔原住民的議員直轄市議員 縣議員這樣的話這個整個整體會有一貫性這個是一個我才會有這樣的一個建議以上來 委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6449.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6471.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主席,在這裏我認為我們想這個法律上雖然是他們的平埔族說什麼我們小時候說我們族歸宗讓他們知道他們是原住民但是也要有一個限度啦你如果沒有一個限度到最後你說去認定來的時候到目前為止我們查的差不多九十 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6477.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6483.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
九十八萬人,如果這樣下去,我相信八五萬人也有可能所以這種我們再討論一下,因為我認為民主歸宗本來的一貫住民,本來就要讓他回來但是你看看的時候,我認為這個問題是很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6502.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6518.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以說主委你們的單位要審慎去評估一下以上好 我們是不是先請原住民委員會說明一下來 請針對第八條修正動議提供一下這個官方的意見 有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6525.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6550.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那當然就是這個修正動議裡面的文字它其實有跟這個憲判的文字有一些就是說它把這個各項客觀證據把它納進來那當然在憲判時期裡面它的文字其實是以日治時期的文字為主就是說註記為熟評者它是判斷標準之一那當然這樣的一個也會延伸到就是說可能清朝甚至說和治時期的一些客觀證據都會把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6551.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6576.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
都會把它納入進來那當然這個部分這個方向我們基本上是表示肯定那但是就是要怎麼樣去做證明這件事情我們可能他的一些操作操作上的一些方式我們必須要再去做一些思考需要再去做一些思考是一個怎麼樣的思考法請問各位還有沒有什麼意見要補充的嗎針對第八條修正動議的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6578.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6598.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我覺得保留啦保留但保留前我還是要請這個園民會目前現在還是我跟你講方向大家都是認同但如何去定義如何去有一個標準你們園民會我是不是這樣子你們目前手頭上有多少的貧苦豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6600.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6622.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
他們的文化,他們的資料,然後什麼的你送一份給我們內政委員會,讓我們看嘛也看你們到底有沒有認真去做這件事情嘛你們明明到現在連平埔族的文化你們都沒有掌握我們來定這些以後只是更多的事情沒辦法解決啊你應該給我們一份這個資料啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6626.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6639.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好那我們第八條先保留可以嗎好謝謝來第九條沒有修正動議大家都長得一樣請問大家有人有意見嗎沒有那我們照願滿通過OK嗎好謝謝第十條第十條好這個提案條好像有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6650.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6673.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
落差對不對然後我們網美會委員有提修正動議這條主要在討論這個審議委員會嘛審議會審議會到底的人數門檻到底是什麼樣子好不好大家行政院提案跟委員提案有一些若干的落差還有我們新增的修正動議請大家一併參酌來請問第十條大家有沒有什麼特別要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6673.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6676.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
來 請國民會委員主席 在這裡我會提出這個意見 我是覺得說我們的規定是11人以上 但是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6686.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6688.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
以下的人我們都沒有去立定所以我參考文化及各個單位我以23人以下因為我覺得要有一個限制才對不然這樣寫說應該11人以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6708.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6734.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這樣 我覺得 我們的生活這樣還不好但是 我覺得說我們尊重提案跟行政院說一人一雙謝謝好 這次把委員會成員的上下線就寫出來了嘛11人到23人 對不對這是網美會委員修正動議的精神請問大家對於這樣子的說法來 請張宏祿召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6742.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6754.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個文美會委員的那部分我是沒有意見但第十條這樣子寫我越看越覺得好像不夠完善你這些邀請專家學者組成審議委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6760.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6789.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這些專家學者他是有準博的不只是權力耶我講句難聽一點的算或不算都在他手上耶對啊我覺得如果只這樣寫不對耶你只有你沒有其他的防弊條款耶我覺得這一條沒有防弊條款耶那專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6790.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6802.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
也不見得他每個都很清楚拼譜族的文化那人家他有這些相關的條件可以申請的你就只有這樣子哇這樣子我覺得這個專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6806.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6821.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
你一個身份的認定就你這幾個人認定他的身份哇 他比法官還大捏他比誰都還大捏我覺得這一條是不是大家再思考一下應該要有防弊條款捏 不應該就這樣子對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6824.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6848.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
好 原民會說明一下吧你們那個審議委會的組成齁政策邏輯是什麼你們本來預估的人數是什麼然後執行的模式是什麼好不好原民會做一下補充說明好這部分我們當時參考就是原住民族從9族到16族我們在執行過程當中我們在做委託研究之後就會召開這樣的一個審議會那大體上也是邀請這個專家學者來組成這個會議去審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6852.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6866.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那我們做出設計這個條文它其實我們在處理不同的族群的時候是會找不同的審議會的委員因為曾如張委員剛才有提到的就是說其實不是每位委員研究評估組的委員他一定每一組都熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6867.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6892.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以我們會專門針對那一組去做一個量身定做一個審議會然後去找比較熟悉這個族群的這個學者專家或者是一些民間人士去參與這個審議所以當時會把審議會定為11人以上主要也是考量就是說也希望有多一點的人來協助那在審議會之前我們其實會也是一定會先做一個委託研究委託研究之後是當作一個審議會在審查的一個基礎資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6893.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6910.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那審議會的決議它是提供給原民會單座就是要呈報行政院核定他的民主的一個基礎的資料所以我們這個審議會審查通過之後我們就會把這個決定報到行政院去做核定但是程序是這樣 單座的設計是這樣主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6915.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6919.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
來 請王美鳳委員主席 其實這裏面的內容 剛才張鋒夫早晚說的說11人醫生 23人醫學 大家都沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6930.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6944.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
是現在你專家要來研議他平埔族是不是他是平埔族的人你的官族你的園民會人是有參加或不參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6946.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6958.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
他的官署名平部署的代表是不是可以參加因為這個參加這個專業的時候說實在依依的認定耶到現在我們好高興的是說你請專家是他什麼調的他什麼專業來請的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6969.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6974.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
是幾個幾個,我剛才主委所說的說,你要做原住民的平府主,就是以平府主,他們來賓的人來認定,如果這樣下去,你如果請專家來,這樣就不省事了,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6993.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6998.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因為我覺得第十條這樣看起來原民會你們其實是有一些疏漏的地方那我認為就是你看因邀請相關領域的專家學者組成審議委員會那請問一下這些相關領域的專家學者是誰你怎麼領聘他的標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7016.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7032.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
是不是你要在最後一項裡面是說要另一辦法定之就是你要聘請這些相關領域的專家學者他的背景啊他到底的專業程度是什麼因為你只有講說要邀請相關領域的專家學者來要組成審議這些人但是他的權力太大了他到底夠不夠專業你沒有一個那個聘聘這些專家學者的辦法這就很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7044.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7070.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那是誰邀請是你園民會邀請你園民會認定他是相關領域的專家就邀請他來嗎這個是有一點疏漏的地方啦是不是請大家可以討論一下是不是在最後一項裡面可以加一下好 政務組我只想請教這個園民會平埔族你們現在認為平埔族裡面到底有幾族啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7073.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7099.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我想請問一下這個問題因為目前至少有10組至少啦你們認為只有10組嗎其實還有其他的組就是學者研究大概有到15組的我跟你講就我所認知的也有不知道哪個組我忘了只剩一個人會講他們原來的主語 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7101.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7110.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
對不對 那人家文化學者有特別去錄音 去收集他這個那一個人 那一組你去哪裡找專家來給我看我想請問啊所以我提出這個就是 這個問題是有複雜的喔不是你們單純想的喔 對不對所以這個問題 我認為這裡沒有防弊不對啦 應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7131.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7146.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
有一些族群就像我剛剛舉的只剩一個人會講族語對不對 你要怎麼去認定那一族只剩他一個人喔其他的都沒有喔那一個人可以成族嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7147.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7166.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
如果專家學者說你這只有一個人我不認為你這個是那問題怎麼辦我今天提出來的是這個問題所以我覺得第10條他們裡面院版這個我認為寫的也不夠完完善啦保留你們再去改來啦你們再去改來給我們看啦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7171.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7195.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那個其實我覺得相關領域四個字太模糊了啦因為你看以文資審議會對不對他要寫專家學者民間團體代表應具備該審議會所設文化資產類別之學術專長或實務經驗然後才人數什麼什麼什麼他其實要很明確的界定就是說我到底要具備什麼樣的專業技能或者是某一些什麼樣的身份條件你才可以成為審議會的成員那另外因為這個每一組都有可能會有申請案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7195.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7224.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那我們現在園民會裡面到底有沒有足夠的學者專家這我是用請教的心態如果不夠他會不會變成同一群人決定非常多事情的狀況我覺得園民會也做一下功課提供一些相關的數據一定要讓大家比較放心好不好那方法上到底是把它直接寫出來哪些領域或者是用高級委員的想法就是說我們另一辦法定制可以讓它比較完整那個辦法相關的方向要先出來那麼這一點要通過的機會比較大所以我們今天還是先做保留我們請園民會再補充一些資料可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7225.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7230.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
好 謝謝那麼第四條我們保留11條請問大家有意見嗎各條長得一樣那我們照約滿通過可以嗎可以謝謝12條我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7239.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7265.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
民進委員 薛徹東一對不對好 請請他說明謝謝謝謝主席這條我想這個限期登記喔不管是學界或者是這個律師界其實都有人批判那就連上次在巡打的時候也有多位有提出質疑那當時主委也有回覆喔這個本席說這個五年錄喔不夠是不是要延長到十年或者十五年或二十年都可以再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7266.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7290.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那所以本席在這裡我就提出一個跟賴慧雯版本一樣的修正就延長到20年不過我想另外新增一項就是說公告期間這個屆滿後仍然可以得由該組或個別申請人以書面續名理由向主管機關申請補充認定程序主管機關也可以斟酌其情形予以受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7291.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7306.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那我們可以看到就連這個限期登記黃昭元前大法官也在這個憲判的協同意見書有提出質疑他說如果未來再有這個登記期間的限制讓原住民沒有辦法補登記的時候憲法法典還是會有權審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7308.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7308.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那謝謝 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7332.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7354.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
有關於這個民族成員身份認定要件的公告時間現在有個五年的版本修正綜藝跟大陸委員是二十年的版本請問各位委員針對這個年限長度因為我看我們這個園民會的意見是尊重大院審議結果園民會對於這件事情的想法你要不要再補充說明一下就尊重就尊重二十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7359.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7366.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
延長五年這是沒有...都是一樣的嘛對不對是前面第一個到底要公告幾年嘛來 委員主席 抱歉在這齁我...我覺得說主委不是尊重啦是要你們有作為是覺得做完 跟我們時間不夠跟我們演那現在又還沒演十年要說二十年你就說尊重這樣就都白爛啦又沒辦法完成啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7388.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7392.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
你也要說出你做主委對平埔族要如何協助讓他們能夠立法,能夠認主歸宗跟你說二十黨尊重,這樣你就開罵了今天不知道大家剛開會,開到現在開會是應該開的沒錯,但是在裡面聽出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7414.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7422.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
主委你說二十天尊重,我聽起來覺得是做一個主委,我們說實在的還不應該啦,以上黃副主委我覺得啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7432.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7455.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
既然要尊重啦那你20年什麼什麼的我覺得就不用討論了啦但我有一個想法就是說你這一個他是不是平普組的哪一組裡面的他是不是有寄予有這個身份這個什麼的政府沒有權利剝奪他申請為這一個組的一個時間的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7459.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7481.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
你可能有一件事情,一個考古或一個什麼,發現原來這個村莊的人他其實就是一個平埔族的一個後代然後他可能還有保留他們的文化什麼的他如果超過20年了,他可不可以來申請你剝奪了他,我覺得這一條的立法應該是反過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7483.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7503.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們希望他多少期間內完全申請但如果有新的市政發現的話他還有保留申請的權利我覺得我們的立法精神應該反過來是這樣子才對我不知道主委你的看法黃婕瑋先然後再高菁瑋 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7505.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7524.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好那我也是認為說其實主委你真的要做點功課啦因為其實前面每一條針對各個委員的意見你應該要有你們的立場然後你們說你們做了多少的研究所以在這邊給出一個足夠立論的依據才對啊啊每個都說尊重尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7526.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7533.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
要執行的是你們耶所以我覺得你們這樣子每一條都沒有認真的回覆委員其實大家會覺得你們很敷衍而且真的蠻不尊重今天的會議審查啦那這個我講一下其實我們每個人都是大家都是做好功課來的好不好請你們也做好功課 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7544.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7559.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
你們的版本是寫五年那那會員的版本是寫二十年那我這邊講一下因為其實有一個大法官在憲判十七號裡面的意見書他有特別提到說到底需不需要有年限這件事情這個是你們要回答的 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7560.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7587.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
因为其实他说认为说因为其实像是山地原住民的身份取得身份是没有实现的那平地原住民有那如果这样是不是有如果有一个实现的话是不是有违宪的疑虑这个是你们要在这里解释的啊那到底你应该要回答说到底我们有没有必要设这个年限例如说很多的平埔族群想要证明自己的身份那可能他要追溯的这个登记文件是很久很久以前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7588.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7592.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
甚至是日治時期的那這樣子的限制會不會對族人造成負擔嗎那或者是說在這個期限內登記跟他能不能取得原住民身份真的有關係嗎以上這些問題都是你們應該要回答的那還有另外一個就是說如果他在你們的年限之間他還沒有成為成人就是他可能還沒滿20歲那 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7612.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7634.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那像這些人他沒有辦法自己去登記那是不是就會因此而喪失他登記的條件呢這些其實這些疑慮你們都是要在這邊都先告訴大家的啊而不是說尊重尊重到底要尊重什麼好謝謝高靜委員為了節省時間齁我是覺得我同意張宏祿委員說的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7635.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7662.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就是說他只要是認定他隨時也都可以進來啊對啊那不要寫時間的限制啊那園民會你們可能去思考一下這個條文要怎麼樣去修會比較好好不好因為你五年十年二十年那種期限是真的很奇怪的一件事情你應該就是說對好不好對我們這個先我們這個先保留然後請園民會修一些那個文字好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7664.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7690.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我可以先給園民會的意見就剛剛我們有討論符合前項公告是第二段符合前項公告是民族成員身份認定要件得於公告期間這是關鍵因為得於公告期間內申請所以才有申請期間幾年的問題但我也是認同張召偉跟高進委員的想法也就是說如果你要開放他申請你要有一個時間不是很奇怪嗎所以是不是檢討這個得於公告期間這一句話你要不要拿掉其實就沒有時間的問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7692.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7719.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那這個東西原名會到時候做一下功課好不好那這條我們就先保留 OK我們到第幾條了 12條請問大家要不要稍微休息一下上個洗手間什麼的對啊 12處理完剛好一半要休息一下嗎 還是要繼續好 繼續好13沒有沒有我問大家我問大家我問大家我如果真的有需要我會喊休息好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7721.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7739.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 13條這個大家都一樣 請問大家有意見嗎好 我們照院板通過14條 14條是不是有宣傳動力 我管覺得沒有14條請問大家有意見嗎沒有 我們照院板通過 謝謝15條請問大家有意見嗎好 我們照院板通過16條請問大家有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7750.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7754.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
沒有 我們照院版通過17條 請問大家有意見嗎好 我們照院版通過18條 請問大家有意見嗎沒有 好 那我們一樣照院版通過後面突然之間很順利喔19條要看一下可以講啦因為都一樣 19條都一樣 OK 那我們照院版通過囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7781.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7782.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
20條都一樣 也沒有宣稱動議那我們照院版通過21條這個都是一些技術上的東西嘛對不對 技術的條文嘛好 我們照院版通過 可以嗎好那個林益菊委員的版本裡面有第22條對不對好 我們現在請林益菊委員說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7809.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7831.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好 謝謝主席這條我是一個新增條文那我內容參考是原住民身份法第11條那我認為這條應該要比照原住民身份法來寫入那原因是實際上戶籍登記可能有登記錯誤啊 遺漏或者其他原因那誤指誤登記為原住民身份者 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7832.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7839.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
需要被補正所以確實需要戶政事務所在知悉後書面通知當事人進行撤銷或更正登記或者由當事人向戶籍所在地的戶政事務所來申請查明並為撤銷或更正的登記我在這裡要補充說明的是說像我們台南市政府已經進行熟的身份註記很久了那也會特別註記評普族名的族別 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7857.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7874.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那截至今年六月底以前台南市已經有八千零四十五人主動來登進行評普族族別或熟的這個身份的註記那根據了解就在蘇焕志前縣長的時代就有更多的族親來登記過 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7875.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7901.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那只是縣市合併後大家沒有再來登記第二次那2008的新聞報導台南縣政府那時候的統計日治時期戶口調查部這個種族藍註記為熟或者是貧就是貧苦族的貧那這個貧苦族的總人數是兩萬兩百四十八人那所以戶政機關應有辦法去清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7901.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7907.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
並通知相關人來進行登記或更正登記所以我希望這一條可以獲得大家支持 謝謝新增條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7913.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7939.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對 因為我們本來的跟這個身份登記的版本大概就21條嘛就只是講說講說護身事務所怎麼怎麼來做處理登記後發生效力嘛但是林盈菊委員新增的第22條是因為說擔心有登記錯誤或輸入的狀況看怎麼來處理來 請高清書的委員請問一下園民會如果沒有多這個這一條是不是可以處理剛剛林盈菊委員所講的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7941.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7952.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
第二個就是登記錯誤的人他如果今天不來處理的話要怎麼處理因為它是個人的問題所以我現在請原民會來回答一下不好意思因為剛剛我也一直在看第17條的規定那其實這個都是姓名的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7970.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7998.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
都是因為姓名然後去取得這個不管是原住民族或現在是平埔族的身份那我覺得你們原民會幾乎就是抄現有的東西來啊你們就是抄原有的啊但不要忘了一件事情我剛一直在看17條很多平埔族的他早就都用漢名了 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7999.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8019.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
幾乎都是漢民了對不對那你用現在用原住民的這所有的族群的思考邏輯去定這些我覺得是不對的你們的邏輯就不對了你看喔你17條的第一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8021.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8040.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
他說依15條規定取得平埔原住民族身份後因並更姓名自未符合該規定那你15條裡面你這邊就是說取用父或母所屬平埔原住民族群之傳統名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8043.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8066.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
欸那你現在意思是說你所有的平埔族的族群你如果都要符合平埔族的你要回歸你的身份證上你除了有漢的漢人的這個文字漢人的姓名之外也要有平埔族的姓名喔要跟現在所有原住民一樣喔欸我覺得這個邏輯很奇怪欸我覺得這個委員大家要思考一下欸蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8071.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8099.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我知道第三款是從具平埔族原住民身份之父或母之姓嘛那你現在我們台灣的這個身份證這個你要從母姓從父姓你長大之後你也可以改喔你不是跟以前一樣一輩子都不能改喔你也可以改喔那他如果依照這個我們的相關的法律他要去改那他有沒有喪失平埔族的身份他連姓都改了捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8101.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8127.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
對不對那你這樣會不會有問題我剛剛 大家一直在念我一直在看15條 17條對 你會出現這個問題喔你未來我只要從他爸爸可能是有平埔族原住民的身分對不對那他本來就是 以血統來我剛剛講的 以DNA來講的話他本來就是平埔族的身分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8128.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8143.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
但依我們現在的法令可以規定他可以從母姓他一從母姓他就沒有了喔就沒有平埔族的身份喔這樣對他來講是不對的喔他沒有受到保障喔所以各位委員我們要思考一下這個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8146.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8156.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
洪祿委員我是覺得沒有問題啦例如我齁其實在技術性上是可以的我叫高津我還是把我爸爸的姓媽媽的姓給留下來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8162.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8185.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對所以其實就我的了解我們自己因為一般他是平埔或者是山地原住民或平地原住民他要恢復原住民身份的時候通常也都會要跟家人討論那家人也希望留下一個畢竟他是有兩個不同的基因存在所以這個問題可能會比較沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8190.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8206.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
就我們現在3D原住民回復原住民的身分或PD原住民的身分所以大家就很容易看四個字的就清楚知道就比如說某某某譬如說我們園民會裡面也有很多人也是四個名字的那個叫什麼字 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8211.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8231.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
杜璋梅中來來來 傅仲你就是其中之一你也是一個所以其實呢在我們恢復我們身份的時候其實我們絕大部分還是會想要把父或母那個留下來我知道高金委員你說的我懂啦但 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8232.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8258.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
在很多就是平埔族的裡面他其實就是我說後來移民都被同化了但有一點以前我們是慣夫性的很多這個慣夫性我們以前有慣夫性只是現在年輕一輩他不想那以前沒慣夫性是不行的那我們現在還有存在很多慣夫性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8261.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8271.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個我知道高金素美委員講的但我覺得這個問題未來可能會發生喔所以原住民我只是原民會我只是想要你們你們對這個問題有沒有解決你們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8275.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8282.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
你們能保證沒有問題嗎?這樣就好啦我只要你們了其實這個剛剛高經緯有特別強調另外一個問題就是說他要一個族群認同那我們希望原住民的傳統的名字能夠持續的傳承 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8293.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8320.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這也是在我們原住民要認同自己的族群跟自己的文化語言各方面所以我們在這個裡面的設計上是希望說你要成為原住民可能有一些部分你還是要回到原住民傳統文化慣俗語言這方面來去認同啦我想才會有這個後面但是以現行的所有的這個明智的使用是沒有困擾的啦在實際的事務上是沒有什麼困擾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8323.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8349.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那個傳統名字這個時候還不會用到好我們就先起我們就先從這個復口調查部日記時代的復口調查部我只要拿出復口調查部手翻手由這個不管你現在是什麼姓吶現在你不管姓什麼就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8350.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8378.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
就可以 所以那個傳統名字那是後面後面後面他要不要改我們沒有強制所以現在只要復國調查部查出來有 熟不管我現在姓什麼我就可以登記了就可以登記了那以後就是如果如果我後來有通婚後來再結婚的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8380.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8403.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
結婚的時候不是 就是他的孩子啦不是 就是他的孩子就是他的孩子有跟非原住民沒有原住民身份的結婚的時候他的孩子要從既有父姓還是母姓的那是後面的部分以現在來講他就是這個沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8411.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8429.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我完全認同鄭委員的說法我剛講的就是如果第二代對不對如果依17條的規定他沒有再從這個具有平埔族身份的父或母的姓他可能以17條的規定他就喪失了這個囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8434.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8457.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
對,然後剛剛高經委原理說他可以選兩個嘛,一起嘛兩個姓一起嘛,這是一個解決的方法啦但我這樣說比較不好意思啦平埔族的生活文化跟既有我們的這個現有的我們這原住民的這16族或什麼的其實文化是有不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8458.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8473.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
其實文化是有不一樣的有慣夫性的 現在又可以有他自己選擇從父從母的我覺得我擔心的是這個未來會不會發生這個問題啊所以我要請教園民會啊這個問題你們認為有沒有問題還是你認為不會發生這點我要請教你們園民會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8487.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8507.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
來那個我分享一下因為我前幾天我接到一個選民服務但是原住民身份一樣是姓名跟身份的那個我覺得真實出現的狀況反而是基層對這個東西的了解不夠因為他就是原住民的爸爸生出小孩然後到底用哪一條登記他是原住民身份結果登記錯了然後到最後是出生證明要撤銷重新登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8508.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8521.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那讓到大家都不太愉快我倒覺得應該在法律上面 法理上面這個名詞的部分應該是沒有問題我想應該是沒有問題但實務執行的宣導其實是不夠這是本席最近剛好觀察也談到這件事來 有沒有什麼要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8524.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8549.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就115條來看的話其實我們是已經有相當大的一個空間包含就是說取傳統名字或是說他不用改姓只要並列傳統名字或者是要改姓大概這三種類型那可能會比較大的問題就是傳統名字的這個部分就是因為我們知道說確實有些平母族群的傳統名字可能不一定有全部傳承下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8550.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8579.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那當然這個我們原民會也可以協助就是說將來也會協助各族去恢復他們的一些傳統名字因為像現在目前西拉雅族他們已經也開始在做調查了那其他族群我們也會協助他們慢慢把這些傳統名字找回來我個人的覺得啦你第17條的第一款這15條規定取得評估原住民身份後應變更姓名字未符合該項規定我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8580.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8591.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這個拿掉就沒有這個問題了他只要取得了你為什麼他改個名字他就喪失身份我覺得你這個拿掉不就問題都解決了我個人的看法我不知道大家的看法來請正天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8604.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8632.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
第一次登記的絕對沒有問題現在就是說子女子女就是說子女他子女的子女應該是子女的子女以後的那個部分他有時候為了一個什麼權益他出去改改名字嗎改姓改姓名嗎改姓然後他權益取得了之後又改回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8633.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8659.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
就是因為有這樣的案例就我們現在的原住民過去有這樣的案例才會有這樣的條文才會有這樣的條文嘛對對對就是這樣我請教一下我請教一下那個原名立委跟原名立委因為我們這個東西我上次處理那個選民服務案之後我自己跟我太太討論一下然後她覺得很奇怪她說照理來講原住民的身份跟名字她為什麼一定是掛鉤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8660.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8678.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
他丟了一個這樣子的概念給我所以我也蠻好奇的我們之所以在法條裡面這樣列就是說我一定要有原民身份是基於文化保存嗎還是有什麼樣的目的然後有了這樣子的一個立法邏輯我用請教的心態而不是聽一下大家的意見因為如果說我們在法條制定的時候它也有政策導引的目的也就是說我們鼓勵大家使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8679.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8698.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
傳統姓名對不對以利保存文化所以等等等等那我覺得這個條文可能要保留的機會就比較高那如果大家其實比較邏輯上是比較傾向說其實身份可以歸身份名字只是一個附加的或者是沒有絕對掛鉤用意的那也許也許就有另外一點思考的方式我們就聽聽這個主委要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8699.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8715.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我這邊請要說明,當時我們會做這個像第15條或是原住民身份法相同的規定主要是因為在現判室,就11年的現判室它裡面有特別提到就是說取得原住民身份必須要有一個認同的表徵或是文化的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8716.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8741.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
文化的一些連結性所以當時我們就採用了這樣的一個方式就是把它當作一個把姓名不然傳統姓名或是跟隨具有原住民身份的父或母之姓當作一個很重要的一個認同的表徵來做這樣的設計我來說明過去原住民身份認定標準還沒有法例的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8743.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8758.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
只有說重複性才可以我們的民法我們的民法說只有重複性所以父親是不是原住民母親是原住民這樣的過去就沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8759.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8787.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
所以我在制定原住民因為原住民身份法草案是我提出來的我在當處長的時候這個陳水扁當總統那個張俊雄當這個行政院長我是處長我提出原住民身份法這個因為法例就可以排除民法因為當時的民法就是重複性所以我當初制定原住民身份法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8788.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8815.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
原住民可以協議父母協議要從父姓還是從母姓排除民法第1059條的規定是當時所以後來民法也跟著我們去改了是這樣所以這個不是有為什麼會做這麼嚴謹的規定就是就是相關的這些資源啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8817.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8843.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
還是跟資源有關係政府機關考量的是資源就像我剛才講的為什麼第九屆的時候行政院版本原住民身份法修原住民身份法當初民進黨團沒有把它二讀三讀就是考量很多考量的真的是很多所以這個部分我的建議就是說因為現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8844.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8853.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
原住民他的相關的規定就是現在這樣我們是不是先照這樣那以後如果還有什麼可以再討論我還是要提醒所有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8860.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8873.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
如果原住民族現在各族用這個我覺得完全合乎這個原住民我剛剛一直強調的DNA學童或者是他們的文化習俗我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8874.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8899.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
沒有問題因為原住民族我們現在所知道的他們命名方式其實是一代傳一代一代傳一代的這樣子下去的但你所有現在齁在台灣的所有的平埔族我認為幾乎就是只有那個姓是傳承的其他都沒有了就只有這樣而已對不對那如果你17條的第一款英齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8902.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8920.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
他只要應變更姓名然後他就沒有這個是我認為你們園民會太不認真抄原來的法案這樣子抄過來沒有認真去做事情你們訂出的這一個那你這個以後會損害平埔族很多人的權利喔第一次當然不會的但後來一定會的啦 鄭委員一定會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8929.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8954.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
一定會啦一定會出問題啦一定有問題啦我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8961.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8985.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以我在這邊就是說其實時間還有啦我點出了問題來了啦我在這邊 請各位委員我剛所說的 像剛好比較不好意思 剛17條什麼這些是錯了沒關係 都討論我認為這個要討論 我跟你講 就算不要改你們原民會也要給我們所有內政委員一個答案啦 一個說法啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8986.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9011.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
對不對 你說服我們 我們就就那個啊 你不能這樣子一個法令就這樣隨隨便便就過啦這我 這狀況比較特別啦因為我們前面跑已經做了宣告 對不對那如果 當然我個人是傾向充分討論所以洪祝昭也提出的意見我是願意尊重但如果要把這一條改為保留我要證得大家在場委員內政委員會委員的同意啦大家有沒有什麼特別的意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9014.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9037.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
沒關係 高經委員覺得還OK嗎沒關係好那所以17條嘛好那我們17條一樣保留主要方向啦我們至少剛經過一整輪的討論的時候是洪路召委的意思其實是希望原民會提供比較完整的說法也就是這件事情的政策脈絡邏輯跟配套措施好不好以例後面再來通過OK |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9039.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9058.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好 那我們就這樣喔 前面我們就不再更動了 好吧好 我重新宣告 實際條我們改成保留好 二十二嘛 對不對因為這是林議警委員的新增條文啦所以看一下這個新增條文的部分戶籍登記錯誤脫漏或其他原因誤登或漏位登者 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9060.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9079.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
當事人戶籍所在地之戶證事務所因於知悉後書面通知當事人為撤銷或更正之登記或由當事人向戶籍所在地之戶證事務所申請查明並為撤銷或更正之登記來 請剛才就請委員會來回應一下沒有這一條是不是也可以處理好 我們回到這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9091.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9116.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
目前就是說這條所規定的事項它其實按照這個戶籍法的現行規定或者是它的相關的執法的規定它其實都是已經可以處理了甚至我們原住民身份法第11條雖然說文字跟這個一樣但是在實務上它其實是其實在做法上是更寬鬆就不一定要在戶籍不一定要在戶籍地所以這個部分我們建議就是說其實應該是可以不用登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9119.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9142.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
他的意思就是說 依照現行的法律是OK的你不要增訂這個 他都可以處理啦那就是看要不要增訂啦來 洪祿哲偉這一條我的看法是這樣啦齁你這邊把他寫得很死就是戶籍所在地他等於他所有事情他要回去那裡耶阿他如果在台北上班他就不用回去了你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9145.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9161.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
他們說現行狀況使用是不需要的嘛所以反而他比較方便啦所以你徵地這個可以不需要你這樣更嚴格咧好 好 好 了解好 我問一下李議員你的想法怎麼樣OK OK沒關係 其實覺得已經經過這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9163.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9185.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
對 已經提了嘛 然後檢舉委員會也在這邊做了確認 都留下記錄嘛就是一定不會有撤銷等等沒有條文的問題可以處理 而且是全台都可以處理嘛 對不對 好不好是 就是說 就因為我這個是參照這個原住民身分法原住民身分法啦 對啦那如果說這條不需要 就是說因為現行的法令已經可以使用了嘛 那這樣子原住民身分法應該也要檢討 要一併來檢討 對啊齁好沒關係 那另外一半 這邊我們就不堅持了好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9189.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9211.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我覺得啦在立法說明裡面你們寫一下然後給大家看啦我就寫一下就好了不用入法啦在立法說明裡面要寫清楚啊寫在21條裡面嘛因為21條就談的是登記上司恢復等等好不好我們在21條做立法補充的說明那22條我們就不許處理可以嗎謝謝好現在是院版的22條院版22條請問大家有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9218.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9219.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
來 請鄭天才委員 然後請李懿君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9223.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9250.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
第22條這個我的條文是寫準用準用這個原住民族語言發展法及原住民傳統智慧創作保護條例為什麼會寫準用準用而不是寫適用最主要是因為原住民族語言發展法裡面的條文有特別規定取得原住民的族語認證之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9253.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9280.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
就可以有關升學的保障或是原住民行政特考相關的就業的這些規定就可以適用所以這樣的情形之下這個就會在相關的這些措施配套措施都還沒有完成之前直接就去適用的時候就會受到很大的影響我特別要跟大家做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9282.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9296.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
現在的原住民跟全國的人就讀大專校宴的出債協力出債協力的落差是30%多 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9299.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9316.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們的少於百分之三十幾原住民跟非原住民就讀大專學校校園的這些落差高達百分之三十幾所以在這樣其他的配套措施都還沒有完成之前如果這樣子定的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9318.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9339.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
會直接嚴重影響到現在既有原住民身份的原住民的無論是他的就寫的保障或者是他的這些就業的這些保障都會受到很大的影響所以我建議就是用這個準用以上好所以鄭天曉委員提案是用準用然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9347.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9367.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
還有沒有委員要補充 請林議員好 這個第22條喔是我的這個動議的第23條 對對對好那那個 這一條齁 那個我是主要是針對就是一個保障語言跟文化的部分加入國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9367.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9387.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
然後是第二項強調評普原住民的個人基本權跟集體權那都要適用這個原基法的保障那第一項修正理由是在說因為國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法這兩部語言跟文資的根本大法不應遺漏在評普原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9388.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9412.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
尤其是原住民相關的權益保障的條文文字也都有散見在這兩部法的法律當中例如說我們國家語言發展法的第七條第八條 第十條 第十四條跟文字法的第八條 第十三條 第八十五條這些都有 那都相當重要所以我們可以看到說像我舉例像我們台南在地的那個新化口皮國小 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9412.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9420.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
它就是全台灣第一間希拉雅族的實驗小學那有關於這個族語的附贈他們就很積極的在push那所以我覺得這不應該被國家語言發展法去排除一樓那族語的教學跟族語老師的培育也應該適用於國家語言發展法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9438.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9458.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那再來就是說像台南在地的那個極被耍的部落那他們的極被耍的希拉雅族的業績也被文化部核定為國家重要民俗活動所以我是認為說文化跟語言的保障都要被這兩部法律來納入保障好 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9460.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9484.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
好 謝謝 來 原民會請說明好 政府做幾個說明第一個部分針對準用或者是適用的這個部分那當時我們會用適用主要是因為就是說像國家語言像原住民族語言發展法裡面可能會涉及到剛才鄭委員所提到的一些優惠措施的部分那那個優惠措施的授意它其實並不是依據這個原住民族語言發展法 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9485.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9512.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
而是依據比如說像原住民教育法或是其他的法規的規範那在那個法規規範的基礎之下然後在原住民族語言發展法裡面特別要求應該要有原住民族語言認證的這樣一個要求所以就是說我們會認為就是說剛才委員所擔憂的就是說可能會因為適用原住民族語言發展法而導致就是說這個原住民族權利受損這個部分可能我們應該是還不會發生這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9515.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9534.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那另外就是林議員所提到的這個修正動議說的這個國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法的這個部分那國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法的主管機關是文化部但是據我們了解就是說國家語言發展法他並沒有特別針對特定的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9535.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9561.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那文化資產保存法也一樣它並不是特別針對特別的族群所以這兩部法律它本來就是所有的族群包含平母族群它也都適用這兩部法律那可能會有差異的部分就是文化資產保存法它有另外授權訂定針對原住民族文化資產的調查研究的這個先行工作我們有特別針對這個部分訂定一個法規命令去特別去扶植這個原住民族的文化資產的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9562.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9577.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
所以這部分是否要增列進去我們可能要請教一下文化部的意見那另外就是第二項所提到的個人跟集體權益的發展的部分要適用直接適用原住民族基本法那這個部分我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9578.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9597.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這個憲判17裡面他其實是已經有提到就是說有關這個台灣原住民族他是屬於憲法徵求條文所提的這個原住民族那國家自應積極保障他的語言跟文化而且就教育文化等事項與以適當的保障輔助但是要怎麼樣去保障輔助要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9599.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9600.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
請問各位委員有沒有什麼補充意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9637.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9656.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
不好意思,我再補充一下,因為我剛剛沒有稍微提到,就是說在我的修認動力的第二項,我那邊有提到說要適用於原住民基本法,那其實很多的評普族親都很在意,就是說到底評普原住民能不能適用原籍法, |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9657.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9671.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那其實很多委員也都有主張原住民就是原住民嘛那不應該被差別的對待所以原基法的直接適用也應該是必須的那我想原基法很多的重要的條文其實包括像說 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9674.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9695.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
一些相關的社福啊或者自然自由的利用啊原住民的基本人權等等我覺得這個也都不應該忽略對於這個平埔原住民族的保障所以既然後面的條文都有提到說各階段權利要分階段進一步檢討了那為什麼原基法就不能直接適用這是我的疑問那 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9696.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9706.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以我是主張說其實原基法現在就可以直接使用在評估原住民身上這應該是大家要有共識的才對以上來 請鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9711.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9734.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這個第一個哈這個第22條這個部分因為那個跟林益錦委員的條文如果談到是不是用原住民族基本法那會在行政院版是23條在23條那邊所以是要一起談還是要分開談 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9736.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9756.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那我先先就這個22條我還是建議就是用準用這主要就是說雖然剛才嚴明會有做了說明我們還是要考慮到這個現在既有原住民身份的他相關的就業尤其是像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9758.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9783.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
原住民行政特考原住民行政特考這個部分這個跟就業有關係他沒有另外一個剛才你講的原住民主教育法就不一定適用啊就不是就會產生這些未來在解釋上會產生很大的這些問題所以這個部分我是建議還是用準用那至於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9786.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9812.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
林委員剛才講的那個基本法的部分是不是我們在23條的時候再來討論那至於這個要加這個文化資產保存法我支持啦可以加文化資產保存法那至於國家原那個是其實沒有分啦沒有分族群這個部分是這個讓這個大家那個了解以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9814.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9842.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
好謝謝各位還有什麼意見要補充看起來挺分歧的對吧到底哪些要適用然後是適用還是準用對不對大概是這兩個爭點我覺得我們可能需要一點點時間來凝聚一下共識好不好我們這條先保留可以嗎我們先把它跑一輪嘛好不好好所以這個月滿二十二條我們暫時先保留待會再討論二十三條文法施行後三年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9844.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9856.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那另一級委員等人提案是兩年內鄭天才委員的說法是說三年內但要制定平埔原住民族群基本法等相關法律好不好這一樣有不同的意見來我們請鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9861.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9876.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個本席的整個脈絡就是怎麼樣讓平埔族群這個相關的這些權益這個身份一定了之後相關的權益能夠很快的去推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9877.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9900.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以我才會提出這個第一個平埔原住民族群委員會自己有自己的機關自己的相關的這些民意代表去共同的去爭取自己的權益會更快會更有保障這是第一個第二個就是說因為憲法判決裡面特別提到平埔 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9902.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9925.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
原住民的相關的權益是要去另外考量另外去考量所以行政院版才會說制定或修正相關的法律制定行政院版制定或修正相關的法律那我因為公務員當久了所以我是想說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9926.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9954.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
平埔族群他的權益你到底要這麼多的法律剛剛念了很多法律嘛到底要制定什麼法律不明確然後要修正什麼法律要花時間去大家的討論因為都會跟相關部會要去溝通協調還不如直接就制定一個平埔原住民族群基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9956.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9983.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這個條文草案出來之後大家一起討論到底哪些是可以哪些是不可以那個方向會很快方向會很快就像這個新住民基本法有這個草案之後大家來討論就會很快不然的話到底是要制定什麼然後要修正什麼一條一條一個法一個法真的是會很慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9985.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10011.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以我的建議就是說直接就是制定平埔原住民族群基本法這樣的話對權益的爭取保障會更快 以上好 謝謝我們請林益菁委員我補充說明一下剛剛的修正動議是一年嘛 對不對好 我們請林益菁委員好 謝謝我的原提案是兩年那後來修正動議改一年為什麼會這樣因為我覺得這件事情真的不能等 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10013.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10041.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
講一下這個歷史遠遠,1994年台灣原住民族的政民運動中就有戈馬蘭族、凱達戈安族等平埔原住民族的隊伍參與抗爭,訴求政民2001年就開始有赴民赴權的運動2005年,台南縣政府率先承認西拉雅族為縣定原住民族那花蓮縣傅里鄉也在2013年認定大武隆族為鄉定原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10041.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10056.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
屏東縣政府也在2016年承認這個馬改報族為限定原住民我想這數十年來訴求身份跟父權沒有停過那說那麼多要講什麼就是說數十年下來政府難道都沒有盤點過嗎那就算沒有也應該要在憲法法庭判決後就要初步盤點而不是三年後才端出這樣一個所謂的身份法 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10069.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10095.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
台南市政府一直以來都相當支持這個希拉雅族跟拼補原住民族所以我們台南市有個自治法叫做台南市希拉雅族振興發展辦法那這有直接根據這個自治法規給予台南市的希拉雅族親各項教育文化、交通水利、經濟土地等社會福利的優惠我要表達的是說台南市政府能在地方自治範圍內做到了那其他縣市甚至中央政府沒有道理不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10096.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10123.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以我懇請原住民要審慎思考一年內要完成資源盤點的這個可能性也是給因應期盼的族親們一個交代以上好 請高清書委員我們今天在審的是行政院的版本當然各委員有權利可以提出自己的看法跟想法那我覺得我們還是要看一下我剛剛一直提到這個法大概十年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10125.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10148.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
蔡英文時期的時候也沒有提出來賴清德總統到上任現在一年多然後已經要到憲法實現的時候現在又再提出來所以事實上我認為應該是原民會也好政務委員也好包括是賴清德總統也好他們應該都盤點過我剛剛講到他的權益涉及到127條的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10150.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10153.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
283條的法規命令你一年怎麼處理我們真的要務實看這件事情所以今天行政院版提出是三年內我覺得大家是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10166.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10190.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那你一年我們務實的來看我們自己在立法院修法立法我們的時程那你內政委員會或者是其他委員會都不要排別的法案了嗎然後通通都排這個嗎也不太可能嘛對不對所以我們身為立法委員我覺得我們務實要看你當然一年感覺是大家都能接受聽了很爽可是事實上有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10191.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10197.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我覺得行政院的版本三年內應該有他們的考量以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10200.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10225.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
來 這個到底幾年比較能夠好好來執行跟安排相關的配套對不對來 原住民組委員會是不是提供一下說法這一次回答啦因為這一條是兩個爭點嘛第一個 多少時間內要處理第二個 方向上是否要明定比如鎮委員講說直接就修基本法那按照院版是說有一個方向完善法規就好好不好針對這兩件事情我們請這個原民會提出說明 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10225.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10247.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
好那這個部分第一個部分針對一年還是三年的部分那我們覺得說應該還是三年正如高基金委員所提到的就是說因為這個部分他盤點之後還要再去修法在修法過程當中就必須要去通訪考量原住民平埔原住民族的這個實際的這個需求所以需要一點點的時間所以我們認為說三年應該是比較合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10248.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10262.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那另外就針對這個政委員所提的這個平埔原住民族原住民族群基本法的這個部分那我們一方面在法制作業上就是說我們比較不會在法律條文裡面看到一個還不存在的法律的名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10264.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10289.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以過去我們看到法律通常立法就是說針對哪些事項要領以法律定之所以他不會說直接把法律的名稱定出來那這第一個那第二個就是說在政治參與交通水利衛生醫療經濟土地跟社會福利的這些領域的保障在原住民族現行原住民族的權益保障裡面這些並不是都規定在同一個法律裡面比如說原住民的政治參與他是規定在地方制度法跟公職人員選辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10290.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10309.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那交通水利它也可能是定在別的像衛生醫療它是定在原住民族健康法的這個部分所以它並不是說制定一部原住民族族群基本法它就可以涵蓋這些項目所以我們建議就是說可能還是制定或修正相關法律來統籌這個概念會比較完整好 請問各位委員聽了原民會的說明之後有沒有想法有沒有改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10322.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10333.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
沒有改變我們就要保留嘛主席,在這裡面喔,我是覺得這個時間可能要再多因為這個23...沒關係因為我的想法,從研究出來,覺得說政治的產物啦,交通的問題啦衛生、醫療、經濟、土地、社會、福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10351.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10364.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
跟議員的文化跟教育,頂頂這麼多,你如果說跟陶琴聲,你們就有一個概念啦跟這個時間報分幾百以上,但是聽起來覺得都沒做,跟鄉鄉就不會這樣,我的想法是覺得說,要做得好 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10374.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10386.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這是最要緊的 跟那個時間 大家看怎麼處理 我覺得說本學所講的問題 到目前為止 包括我們門檻 都阿伯做 以上好 那麼這一條 保留嗎 好不好23條我們先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10402.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10410.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
進到24條公佈的實行應該沒有問題吧這個是因為憲法法庭有時間壓力嘛對不對所以我們今天趕快來審嘛對不對所以公佈的實行那有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10412.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10416.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
主席 沒問題 要不要在這裡補充一下 剛才本席所說的 也不是他們自己可以做的很多交通部的 衛福部 跟經濟部 跟很多 說實在的 他們是發的驚 發不驚 這又是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10433.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10438.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
議長,我是說要解決問題,我們不要說說得這麼好聽,自己是看會怕,看不怕,這是最要緊,不過要拜託行政院院長他們幫忙協調一下,議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10451.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10470.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好 我們條文照院版通過嘛 好不好好 那我們第一輪跑完了 這樣我們休息協商15分鐘討論幾件事情 第一個就是這些保留條文要不要再凝聚共識第二 相關的附帶決議趕快行政機關跟提案的委員先做溝通 好不好我們休息協商15分鐘 現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10481.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10486.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們就把這個文字給你這個是第幾條的針對第六條他們希望審查寬鬆一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10511.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10511.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10512.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10515.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
很多很多 抱歉喔 問題這麼多 還真的問題太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10542.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10548.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
中文字幕志愿者 李卓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10558.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10559.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
稍微稍微 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10588.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10594.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
你不要這樣我...你不要這樣我...我來...我...你協商平台 平台之後再開一堆 其實就這樣子我們就要過去改 我知道 我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10606.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10618.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
他們有移出來了,移出來了,不在局面上,不在局面上,不在局面上, |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10631.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10639.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
其實到後來我這樣看就三角了我這樣有八角,你要有三角就四角三角是四角啦,是花多一點時間在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10658.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10661.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
還是給我看一下 但是能不能處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10682.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10682.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10700.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10702.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們是延續這一個 當然沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10726.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10729.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我會去職工 如果可以我就去28那個禮拜來買 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10746.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10748.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這樣就兩個禮拜然後原民會是要什麼理工 對不對我們跟原民會有交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10764.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10789.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
原理會也準備好資料好不好所以要保存在原理會那兩個我們先保留你們兩個好不好剛剛那個其實有講喔副大局因為一強就是第六強一強跟23強都保留我們保留任何人的資格好不好當然當然都是我們主要研究自己的資格喔因為我們都同意人家講的就是女士要嚴謹一點半的婚姻快點婚姻 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10790.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10793.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
好 各位 請坐 上樑我問幾條 好啦268 412 17 623嘛 對不對我問8個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10821.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10823.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好 大家請坐關鍵人物不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10833.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10858.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我直接跟大家報告我們剛剛休息協商的結論這樣比較快啦好不好真的大家同意是這樣子啦因為今天這樣我們經過第一輪的討論其實也算蠻有進度的啦很多基本上是有通過有達成共識的條文我們有來通過但是保留的部分有第二條 第六條 第八條 第十條十二 十七 二二 二三總共還有八個條文有些是方向還沒有完全確定有一些是委員希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10859.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10874.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個人民會提供更清楚的說明跟配套措施那我們這樣子就是說今天我們這八條我們就給它保留下一次本席就下一次排案的時候下下週啦我會再來安排一次這個的討論那我們這個下面討論我們就只討論這八個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10876.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10897.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好不好我們跟委員會有一個這樣子的一個共識通過了就通過了就不再處理這樣子我們兼顧了法案的推進效率但是也給了大家時間做周延的討論那我們要請原民會主委這邊針對這八個條文的爭議爭點詳細準備資料最好可以提早跟各個委員不管是提案委員修正動議的委員或者是提出意見的委員提早說明這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10900.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10924.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
應該要提出說明 好不好免得這個法案過不了關因為這個法案是有一點時間壓力啦 好不好我們要推進 好不好那我們就這樣子作為今天的結論 可以嗎那另外我補充一下 意思有說明我們有兩個附帶決議對不對第一個是跟著第六條第二個跟著二十三條那因為第六條跟第二十三條都保留了所以我們的附帶決議就跟著那一次一起處理 好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10926.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10932.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
好 那今天就這樣子了 好不好那我們今天要 我們還是要宣讀一下對不對好好 呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10950.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10977.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好報告委員會我們正式調這個模式還是要做一下那我們就請宣讀今天的協商結論請宣讀協商結論法案名稱第一條第四至五條第七九十一十三至十六十八至二十一二十四站一行政院提案通過第三條站一代會員等委員提案通過第二條第六條第八條第十條第十二條第十七條第二十二條第二十三條保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10979.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10998.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
擬請委員等提案第二十二條不予採納報告完畢好 請問委員我們按照剛剛協商結論通過請問有異議沒有好 我們有異議通過那我們做以下決議討論事項二 所列議案我們另定期繼續審查那麼本次會議到此結束先來散會謝謝大家 |