| IVOD_ID |
168168 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168168 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-01T12:56:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-01T13:16:46+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6ae3a98a11df106cb94221f8435d86457570c8d4d2e9dc7870bdfb2511f2cb5c7c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:56:34 - 13:16:46 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、原住民族委員會就「穩定原住民族就業、改善低薪與勞動權益保障，並縮小職業災害發生率及死亡率差距之執行現況與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部、衛生福利部就「開放家有十二歲以下子女家庭逕行申請外籍家事移工政策，對本國勞工就業、照顧體系負擔、兒童最佳利益及相關權益保障之衝擊評估與制度配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部、衛生福利部、行政院、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、法務部，就「職場霸凌申訴機制之檢討：以顏慧欣案為例，如何建構員工心理健康與職場保障機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】） |
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好 謝謝主席 麻煩請一下洪部長好 請洪部長請問好部長好 首先想要先跟您請教一下答案都跟你說了 跟你看了但是我想問的是原住民的職在千人綠 |
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39.653 |
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你給他看沒關係啊,那也不是今年的吧我要問你今年的114年原住民的職災遷人率是多少?跟委員報告,我們現在正在統計中那初步的資料是職災遷人率是3.267那全產業的職災遷人率又是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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我們可能要再查一下數據我幫你查好這2點你們也還沒公布我就不要聽你們公布了對因為113年我這邊簡報上面是前年的那去年的我們目前還沒有看到那這目前你們還沒公布那這個兩者的相差他有一些差距那部長你怎麼看待這個差距有什麼特別的意義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
101.594 |
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119.463 |
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的確原住民族他在很多他的就業跟職業上面可能是比較會是高風險的職場的確我們也看到這個狀況第一個來部長我跟你說一下我換算給你看那每年大約有上萬件的這個職災發生以114年來看總共有25371件意思是說呢在這個兩萬大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
129.648 |
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150.467 |
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大概25000件的植栽里面呢比例换算一下从这个刚刚植栽千人率这样换算起来我们大概原住民的部分有占了15000人那其他族群的部分加起来大约有1万人左右这个比例是这样看起来是很可怕的那 |
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152.048 |
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179.21 |
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原住民的這個職災宣導跟統計我們在過去在這個研究所就是我們前所長何俊傑的帶領之下他有特別建置了這個專屬的網站可以利用那這個網站在過去定期會分析原住民的這個職災的特性那這也顯示勞動部對於原住民高發生率的職災是有所重視的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
180.071 |
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202.734 |
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那只是說在他離開之後那我們最近想要再查詢這個網站那我特別上網去看你們在這個網頁3月30號的時候有更新這個要給你們拍拍手但是我很認真的再去看一下裡面的內容卻停留在 |
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203.795 |
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222.864 |
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去年也就是去年114年2月17日裡面的內容是完全沒有更新了所以本席會合理的懷疑所以我們是不是因為今天有這個專報然後你們要來備詢所以我趕快做個假動作那個網頁給他更新一下而且只有一人瀏覽那一人就是我們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
224.068 |
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241.654 |
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不是 他主要是他的資料的時間出來因為他可能涉及到勞保的資料然後我們還要跟內政部所以我們今年其實應該在三月中的時候重點是因為網頁今天三月三十要有更新而且這已經就是有過了一年多了這有一年多的差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
242.554 |
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260.866 |
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那比較重要的是說我們看一下113年是比112年植栽增加了64例那我不知道說114年它會繼續上升還是下降那因為我要講的是整體來說114年應該是下降的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
264.148 |
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285.583 |
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那我們下降聽起來很好 好消息 但我們來細看一下114年度職災死亡的人數是251人比這個前年度要減少了36人看起來如部長所說的 我們這個降災的成效看起來是不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
287.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
314.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我覺得還有精進的空間好沒關係但是至少看起來人數下降嘛那這個要給你拍拍手但是呢我們在西部看一下實際上是因為今年我們的這個近年我們住宅的開工數也下降了下降了兩趴那也就是等於少了將近三千戶左右那這個也是一個很重要的數據那我們這樣換算起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
316.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
334.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
可能就不一定是降灾成效良好了因为更何况在你们的制造业就是说制造业的死亡人数它是比去年增加了7人那total是你看在全产业 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
335.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
352.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個7不要小看這7個人這就已經佔了這個增加這7個等於佔了全產業的25%的死亡人數了好這個是很高的好那我們再看一下喔就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
356.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
369.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
教育跟宣導是當然是這個旨在預防非常重要的措施那感覺過去你們看起來是比較重視那畢竟就是說原住民利用這個我們遂時祭儀還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
371.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
395.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
各類的活動像射箭、壘球比賽等等你們在這些活動上藉這樣子人數聚集的時候我們大力的宣導當然這是過去研究所所主導而且有看到一些好成績但是同時我在這邊也要提醒勞動部就是我們要注意數據的正確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
397.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那也不要像職安署就是說曾經他發布了然後又增加重大職災人數因為必要的時候部長你也可以請這個跟這個勞保局可以再確認一下部長是不是可以同意這樣的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
414.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
440.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們當然會請治安署跟勞保局都保持資料上面的對接那今年初其實的確有一度我們有增加幾個人重大自災人數但比較大的原因是因為當時其實有一些自災認定案件還在司法單位裡面其實檢察官還在認定那後來檢方把那個他的資料給確認出來以後他是自災所以我們也很直接的就把這些相關的數字加上去那我們都不會隱匿不會隱匿絕對不會隱匿 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
444.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
471.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
因为大家都会去看当年的这个换算的人数嘛那至于你说每年都要去解释为什么增加我们现在会是每季那我想这个部分就提醒你们我每三个月就公布一次那这个另外要也是要再提醒劳动部就是说我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
472.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
494.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是說在這個你們那個下降就是說數據一下下降太顯著太漂亮然後又沒有分析原因的時候然後發佈的時間又比往年要再晚我說這樣的種種的這個跡象會讓我們難免去質疑這個數據的真實性所以跟我們說明我們接下來會是每三個月每一季就會發佈一次好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
496.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
525.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那我們就拭目以待希望有所精進那另外就是說勞研所的這個績效跟部長是不是重視會不會有沒有在重視是有很大的關係因為這個機構呢他當然配合這103年2月勞委會升格為勞動部之後呢所有的預算跟人員呢都沒有變動那全部都是職業安全衛生的背景的研究人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
526.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
554.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那但是呢我們檢視一下這個政府的所長還有新來的主命呢都不是這個職業安全衛生的這個職安衛的這個專業的人去領導那本席只是想要請教說部長這樣子的安排在領導統一上會不會容易出問題那專業上有沒有說服力 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
555.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
583.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
會不會容易做出錯誤的決策跟判斷而不自知然後造成而且底下的這些專業的部署可能也不敢多說什麼那這些呢可能都會影響到部長做出一些在做判斷的時候做決策的時候可能會有一些落差那我想我不知道部長有沒有掌握這樣的問題或者認為這樣根本也不是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
584.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
599.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
跟文說明第一個因為確實我們研究所這邊過去比較多會是專案位的人員但其實近年外界越來越重視很多關於勞動市場相關的研究所以我們這幾年尤其是跟勞動力有關的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
599.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
616.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
包括跟就業有關的這也其實是在我們整個研究的範圍裡面所以我們整個接下來當然我們還是會保持因為我們的在這個研究所的一個優勢就是針對職安衛的研究的部分可是接下來我們也會要來強化在勞動市場上面的研究因為這也是現在包括大家提到缺工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
618.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
638.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
包括各種勞動型態的研究的問題這可能過去不是傳統職安衛範圍的但是我講的是我剛剛談的問題主要是集中在我們的第一層一層的這個專業人士的部分他們的專業因為畢竟這個領導你也可以平衡一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
639.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
654.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我的問題在這裡跟跟文說明其實因為現在那個王所長他之前在公布的重規師其實重規師就是掌握跟了解整個勞動部相關的政策其實都了解到都有一定程度的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
654.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
675.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以當然這個如果委員有什麼建議我們可以也再來跟委員聽取委員的建議那或者是有什麼提醒也可以再來提醒我們我想我點出這個問題啦那那個部長重不重視認為是不是有問題就是我也沒有辦法勉強但我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
677.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
696.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在針對因為我們是監督單位那我就提出這樣子的提醒那另外就是說今天另外的議題是霸凌那目前就是說有關於這個職場霸凌的諮詢專線我們查了一下除了1955之外還有這個職安署跟這個勞工健康服務的心理諮商專線並沒有專責的這個服務單位你們未來會設置嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
704.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
721.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
會想要設置在哪裡嗎我想接下來在預防重圓中心我們會來規劃相關的機制好這樣很好謝謝喔那職安署的這個職場霸凌申訴管道申訴專線跟傳真請問從這個職安法的霸凌專章通過之後接到申訴服務的次數次量有沒有統計有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
724.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
736.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對 你們有統計嗎跟委員報告 因為現行是條文還沒施行不過過去以來的不罰侵害的這個案件都有持續在接受跟統計所以目前是沒有啦因為還沒上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
739.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
766.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
因為只要是涉及到人的管理就有可能有這個霸凌的發生那這個涉及到客觀的事實跟主觀的感受那勞動部呢剛好就自己你們都遇到了那第一案呢謝一榮的案子勞動部從一開始調查是不成立的後來因為龐大的這個輿論壓力那我們又重啟調查然後又成立了這個就是他重新調查之後又成立了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
767.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
787.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
结果呢这个法院认定又霸凌案又不成立那另外一件呢是裁判法人职灾中心的主管的霸凌案那法人的内部调查经过他经过三次三次的会议决议才认定这个霸凌案成立过程看起来是非常严谨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
788.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
802.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
但是呢這位被認定霸凌案的副處長卻還不斷的去提告申訴人證人還有調查委員結果呢反而被法院的這個判決書 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
803.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
826.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
把這個調查的這個過程結果認定霸凌案的理由公開那結果呢就變成了這個是霸凌專章通過之後我國第一件我們第一件由法院引用職安法認證通過的霸凌案成立那我想要請部長去看一下那份判決書就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
829.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
842.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
臺灣臺北地方法院114年度勞檢制第183號民事判決原告葉秀珊告證人原告之訴駁回我想我把這一份就先送給部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
862.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
890.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 這個看起來職安署負責的調查程序跟結果遠遠不如你們當時的這個職災中心能夠在司法認證上站得住腳那部長你知道嗎在有聽說這位副處長在調查階段有私下事先跟調查委員接觸我想請教部長調查委員的名單是不是不公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
892.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
920.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
應該是不公開吧他不能事先公開吧根文說明第一個在重建中心當時有幾件的霸凌案我們都依照相關的程序來辦理所以確實因為這當然涉及到一些個資那幾件案子那確實有霸凌成立的情況他不是到法院才認定霸凌成立是在我們在這個重建中心在法人的調查裡面就認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
922.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
947.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
成立的對而且認定完以後也做了相關的處置好在法人那個時候就認定成立是好那你可能要關注一下後續的發展對所以後來我現在後來又有他們的提告到法院部長我現在問的你要回答我我現在問的是調查委員的名單是可以事先公開的嗎因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
950.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
979.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為你們的這位副處長他事先去跟著這個調查委員接觸了啊你不知道這件事嗎你知道嗎調查委員的名單我們其實並沒有公開好那我想請問葉秀珊副處長他是如何得知調查委員是誰那他怎麼可以事先去找調查委員部長你要不要回去調查一下為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
981.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
989.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我不確定他怎麼知道但我要可以說的事情是說這個案子基本上這個內部的調查霸凌就是成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
990.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1018.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我要在這裡 我現在不是部長你稍等一下部長你弄清楚我的問題我今天我不是在跟你討論霸凌案我不是在跟你計較霸凌案在你們內部就已經成立還是到法院才成立我今天我在乎的是為什麼這個副處長他可以事先知道這個調查委員的名單如果你們在這件事情上不能好好把關的話那未來會變成什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1021.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1032.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以我今天在這裡要求我很清楚有掌握這個訊息業副處長他有跟調查委員他有去找他有接觸那 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1035.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1055.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
你要很正視我提出來今天這個問題因為他可能就是成為未來你們在處理所有的大靈案的一個很重要的一個破口所以如果你有相關的資訊的話其實你可以提供給我們但是問題是這個葉副處長到處告人搞不好我今天質詢完他也告我呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1057.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1070.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
雖然不會成立但是他可能也會到處告啦那我要提一下啦就如果你有明確的事實的話你也可以提供給我們部長你暫時不要再跟我反駁任何事情因為我告訴你有這件事情那我們要提出來是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1073.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1101.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我希望你做調查你去調查為什麼會發生然後你把這個調查結果跟本席報告跟我們所有委員衛環委員會的委員來報告我為什麼要你做這個動作因為未來如果有內部的人因此受影響而有特定的立場造成有一方被冤枉了那霸凌專章未來還可以保護勞工嗎還是說變成有利人士的這些可以興風作浪的源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1102.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1126.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
好我今天特別指出這個問題我是要你杜絕未來有可能發生同樣的問題所以你一定要回去調查所以委員當時在這個法人裡面的確有幾件霸凌案的調查霸凌案成立以後我們在人事上面都做了處理的就是希望杜絕也希望能夠讓法人有一個新的在人事上面一個新的開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1127.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1146.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以我們也不希望說未來負責調查的或者去做證人的都被變成被告或者是甚至被開除或者甚至被反告變成是霸凌的對象這些都是不對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1147.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1162.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以一般的法律都可以透過執法或者這個行政命令來確保這個法律的效果可以被發揮那你們現在既然訂了這個霸凌專章但是你們卻沒有這個實質程序禁止行為等等的宣示都沒有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1163.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1191.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
而且也沒有這個諮詢服務的專責單位所以我希望勞動部你們可以再繼續加油要有所作為讓自己通過的法案能夠真正發揮到保護被霸凌的勞工委員我還是做說明說現在附屬法規正在修訂中所以剛才委員剛才講到的幾個點包括禁止的部分在新的附屬法規裡面我們都有放進去對這是在去年底的修法之後然後再新訂的附屬法規那我們希望能夠在7月1號可以上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1192.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1208.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好那這個部分喔我剛剛講的那個調這個事先那個名單洩露然後被我是說那個葉副處長去找的這件事情好你們一定要好好調查清楚如果有委員有什麼相關資訊也可以再提供給我們我們來確認對謝謝謝謝陳營委的資訊 |