| IVOD_ID |
16816 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16816 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-16T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-16T12:49:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:18:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcdb0e223ab9a8792390a0be61fea1481880a0af5ed963d0f5bf3cb92bc693ce245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、內政部警政署署長、教育部、勞動部、內政部移民署率所屬相關單位列席就「保護令不是萬能的?!如何避免憾事再度發生。家庭暴力防治法保護令核發，研析配套措施之檢討與精進，並提供相關統計數據」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 12:49:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1851.281 |
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1875.738 |
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報告委員會 初期委員8人 已讀法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開始開會 進行報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第21次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年6月23日星期一 上午9時1分至12時14分地點本院紅樓302會議室 初期委員王逸川委員等11人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1876.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1904.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
列席委員鄭正前委員等四人列席官員法務部政務次長黃士傑等人主席莊昭齊委員瑞雄報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請法務部部長法務部矯正署署長司法院及衛生福利部就現行預證與受刑人處遇機制之制度檢討進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議有委員王逸川等11人提出質詢委員楊瓊英蘇清泉提出書面質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1905.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1906.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
請問各位就上次會議事錄有錯或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1926.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1946.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
沒有的話依書確定我們接著介紹道場委員還有應邀列席官員首先介紹在場委員黃國昌委員王逸川委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員思考院副秘書長王梅英副秘書長法務部部長鄭明謙部長衛生福利部部長邱太元部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1950.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1970.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這邊先宣告 因為待會兩位部長另有要工所以法務部部長在10點半之後會離開衛福部長在9點半之後會離開 由次長來代理其餘會及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本日議程排定專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1972.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1983.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
現在進行報告每位範圍時間三分鐘首先我們先請司法院王副秘書長報告那接著請法務部然後再接著請衛福部好謝謝請王副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1993.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1994.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
保護令合法及違反保護令罪統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2013.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2032.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
今年的1月到5月,紧急保护令的核发率是94.05%,平均核发时间是2.08小时。第二,战时保护令的核发率是78.57%,平均核发日数是7.8日,通常保护令核发率是72.88%,核发日数59.8。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2037.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2051.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
19日另外在111年到114年5月各地方法院審理違反保護令罪及家庭暴力罪的案件呢申請羈押的被告人數是1074人嘴語羈押是789人財準羈押的比率是73.47% |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2057.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2077.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
法院對於家暴被害人採行友善的出庭安全措施第一個寄送被害人權益保障事項的說明書第二呢會讓家害人跟被害人使用不同的出入路線不同的等候處第三採行隔別詢問第四社工跟心理專家的陪同 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2078.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2089.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
初庭第五警察跟法警的安全護送被害人到院離院第六轉介地方法院駐法院的家暴服務處擬定被害人的安全計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2091.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2114.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
有關於精進措施第一點各地方家事庭積極與家庭暴力防治網路人員跨機關跨領域的密切溝通合作第二加強法官還有司法事務官關於家庭暴力危險評估跟家庭危險因子評估的教育訓練以強化危險意識 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2118.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2141.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第三,被害人撤回保護令申請的時候,請家暴服務處協助評估安全風險。第四,被害人申請延長保護令時,建制和警政、社政資訊的系統介接,以利在延長保護令的時候,可以及時使網絡人員知悉保護令。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2146.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2172.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第五在被告犯家庭暴力罪還有違反保護令罪的時候被告被魚之拒保的時候依家暴法第31條第一項規定審酌個案所需發付條件的保護令以防止家庭暴力的發生以上報告敬請各委員及先進不令指教謝謝好謝謝我們下一位請法務部長鄭部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2180.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2207.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席各位委員會報告並被質詢自報告如下進行指教我國是於民國87年制定家庭暴力防治法將家庭暴力行為是違犯罪本部所屬檢察機關經理司法警察機關共同合作強力執法嚴懲家庭暴力犯罪本部所屬檢察官一旦只有家庭暴力的犯罪行為的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2209.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2234.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
均及指揮司法警察機關及其介入偵辦 迅速蒐證 即使為必要強制處分對吳吉亞的必要被告 議事個案的狀況 依加報法的相關規定命被告遵守一定事項 並通知相關警察機關及加防中心本部首署 抬高檢署及各檢察署 均定期召開附幼保護會議從中央到地方 建立督導機制及橫向 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2236.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2254.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
聯繫平台強化家暴案件的偵辦及聯繫機制各地檢署經案期派員參與各地方政府召開的高危險案件的網絡會議共同就此類案件進行檢視及討論以提供相關保護措施本部每年定期舉辦附又 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2256.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2274.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
保護及性別平等研習會以強化檢察官偵辦此類案件的敏感度依據本部統計地檢署111年至114年1到5月家暴案件的起訴率約三成多違反保護令罪的起訴案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2276.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2303.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
起訴率激進五成11年至13年被告經結送的案件中呢依加報法通知比例將近百分之百依法預支付條件命令將近60%本部所屬的將持續努力嚴懲家庭暴力犯罪與政府各部門共同維護社會大眾的生活安全確保民眾權利獲得保障以上報告敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2305.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2307.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 謝謝部長 那下一位我們請邱部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2311.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2340.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生本部呈邀內席大院司法及法治委員會會議深感榮幸是就近日主題提出專案報告請請各位委員不吝會議指教依背景家庭暴力防治法以下稱本法實名定各職轄市縣市主管機關因依被害人需求提供保護措施外並授有民事保護令制度及相關刑事程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2341.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2367.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
別透過強力司法作為有效遏止暴力行為本法實施迄今27年本部之予於建立建構完善之保護服務三級預防體系積極加強跨專類之網絡橫向聯繫與合作督導地方政府落實推動加爆安全防護網計畫佈建各項中長程服務支援協助被害人創傷復原 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2369.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2384.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
二 疑似保護令制度及相關形式程序之檢討與精進一研究顯示保護令核發對八成加害人具有克制作用但對為加害人有犯罪前科精神病疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2385.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2404.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
或對被害人有嚴重暴力行為時其違反保護令及再度施暴的可能性比較高為因應複雜多元化之暴力形態本部集體強化與司法院、保護部、內政部、教育部、勞動部、國家通信傳播委員會等之跨網論機制相關檢討以精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2407.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2433.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
重點工作如下一 落實輔導以刑事司法機制強化加害人再犯預防二 落實危險評估機制強化被害人保護措施三 強化初級預防並深化性別平權意識決議家庭暴力樣態多人且複雜現行本法民事保護令制度及相關刑事程序雖能對多數人 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2436.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2455.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
加害人產生後製效果,濃縮網絡共同執行相關安全計畫,並呼籲加害人持續以其輔導機制,方能積極防範。本部曾答應各位委員會指教及監督,在此敬志謝神,並請各位委員繼續予以支持。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2460.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2476.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
請問其餘提出書面報告機關有無口頭補充沒有的話機關代表報告完畢相關書面請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我先跟各位報告就是我們今天的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2478.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2494.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
會議主要就是因為上個星期圖城有一起殺妻子及小姨子的命案讓外界對於保護令的實質保護意義到底在哪裡有所質疑所以我們今天召集各部會來開專報我們希望各單位的書面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2495.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2512.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
報告要提供相關的數據然後我們來檢討一下我們目前保護令這個制度到底有沒有可以精進之處有沒有辦法更強力的更高密度的保障我們的國人那希望這起的憾事將來都不會再發生這個是我今天召開這場會議的主要的主軸 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2514.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2528.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
現在我們進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2538.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2542.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
謝謝主席 有請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長 還有衛福部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2553.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2567.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
三位早時間的關係不一一問候我今天召委非常用心針對上週所發生的這個人倫的悲劇竟然有一個家暴男違反了家暴保護令了以後結果沒事把他放掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2568.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2589.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
放掉了以後回去把他的妻子跟他妻子的妹妹殘忍的殺害我想這件事情震驚全國才會導致今天這個專案報告的發生來首先請教我們的衛福部部長針對這一起悲劇衛福部認為有沒有什麼需要檢討的地方來請說明快點快點時間的關係快點 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2595.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2614.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我想我們當然就是要更加的來落實輔導以刑事司法機制強化強化人加害人的再犯預防那你講這個不會覺得很空洞嗎針對這個案子從衛福部的立場有沒有認為需要檢討的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2619.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2632.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在法裡頭規定預防性羈押這個案件的確做到但是在羈押後的附條件如果要釋放之前你可以有附條件但是沒做到以及沒有向法院申請羈押所以沒有向法院申請這個是誰要負的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2639.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2650.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
檢察官檢察官應該要負的責任我們下一個請法務部過去三年針對違反家暴保護令的案件案件數是不是持續成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2653.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2680.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我覺得這裡面齁其實發生這個事情真的是一個我們覺得不好意思啊請你不用上來講廢話請到旁邊去我並沒有請你回答請你到旁邊去那個趙偉啊是不是請他自指一下什麼時候是法治委員會質詢的規矩變這樣官員沒有受邀可以自己上來插話你插話如果有講建設性的話那我也就算了上來講一堆廢話 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2684.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2704.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
來 請法務部部長過去三年違反家暴保護令案件的數數量是不是逐年增加這個統計的確是從11年是1974112年是2267來我直接給你看啦地檢署辦理家庭暴力案件起訴人數自己看2022年4003件 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2709.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2730.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
2023年4204件2024年4445件這是家庭暴力罪違反保護令罪2574件一直到了去年已經到2895件了針對這個案件數不斷的攀升法務部有沒有研究背後形成的原因是什麼這部分我想再整個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2733.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2760.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個我想我們講到是受理那些移送的家暴的案件是那因為家暴法所以不關你們的事不是說我們是屬於沒有我的問題很具體啦他那個這個是屬於那個案件數不斷的攀升理由是什麼這個是主管的一個部委主管的來請邱部長那個法務部郭甩回給你了啦違反保護力的案件家庭暴力的案件每一年數量不斷攀升衛福部有沒有了解背後的成因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2762.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2766.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
部長你覺得你有回答我的問題嗎為什麼案件數每年持續增高如果社會安全網有補起來如果相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2785.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2812.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
家暴防治法保護的機制有做到為什麼每一年的案件數逐漸升高現在啦我不是要跟你檢討個案啦個案的態度剛剛司長講得很清楚了啦現在大家更關心的是一個宏觀的角度嘛為什麼案件數每年不斷持續的升高是這個社會變得更暴力了嗎還是家暴防治法在衛福部主管的範圍之內有該做的事情沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2813.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2841.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你如果不知道理由不知道問題在哪裡就根本不用期待你去解決任何問題我這樣說有錯嗎 請教部長是的 應該要了解原因你什麼時候要了解原因需要多久了解原因一個月好不好一個月提書面報告出來為什麼數字不斷的增加來 接下來請法務部部長按照目前家暴防治法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2843.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2865.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
觸犯家庭暴力罪刑事處罰是什麼就是那個家庭暴力罪跟違反保護令違反家庭暴力罪我們是法律人具體違反家庭暴力罪的刑事處罰是什麼這個應該刑法因為他家庭暴力罪有很多的類型那個要回歸到普通刑法所以就變成了是說回歸到普通刑法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2866.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2888.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那多徵的這個家庭暴力罪有什麼意義家庭暴力罪在家暴防治法裡面沒有給特殊的刑法規定啊從法務部的立場來講 讚不讚成61條是違反保護令罪啦不要混在一起嘛兩個不同的統計都給你做出來了你還在混我一談法務部部長對自己主管的法規要守啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2890.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2903.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
家庭暴力罪在家暴防治法裡面沒有特殊的刑法規定法務部站在法務部的立場 贊不贊成還是覺得從法務部的立場來講回歸普通刑法就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2906.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2930.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他那個氣死家暴法這有特別的規定有關你那個居體積壓或者是負條件那個是刑事程序嘛我現在在問你的是刑事實體法嘛那刑事實體法這個是回到普通刑法對嘛所以我就問你嘛針對沒有特殊的刑法規定回到普通刑法法務部站在主管機關的立場贊不贊成嘛我只有要問你政策立場的問題啊在那邊閃來閃去的這個裡面真的在第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2932.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2951.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
對啦 第二條有家庭暴力罪沒有特殊刑罰的規定嘛所以家庭暴力罪是主管機關是衛福部嘛是 所以法務部沒有立場就對了好 第二個第二個 違反保護令罪就違反保護令罪真正有執行刑罰的比例有多少 部長知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2954.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2962.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
違反保護令罪來我先直接請教你啦違反保護令罪按照家暴防治法裡面刑法的規範是怎麼規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2966.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2994.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那個是依照家暴61條的規定來處理嘛他的法律效果是什麼那個有期徒刑三年以下三年以下有期徒刑 講得很好旁邊的人一直來給你打pass我們接下來再往下看啦針對所有被判有罪的不好意思喔 請你回答問題啦針對違反家暴保護令真的有執行刑罰的真的有被關的 比例有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2996.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3001.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個從那個113年的話這個判決有罪的從19667人判決有罪是5290人那這個比例是 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3009.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3034.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
不是判決有罪的比例啦 真的有去關的比例啦這個是執行的啊 判決接近執行是有罪的嘛是啊 那區域需要關嗎那這部分我是 我這邊沒有統計這個資料來來來 看一下螢幕前的資料 看一下螢幕前的資料大家都沒壓沒緊 自己主管的法規也不熟 相關執行的狀況也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3035.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3053.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
還要補社會安全網笑掉人家大牙來看一下超過我寫的算科技啦百分之九十五以上事實上是什麼大概九十七九十八趴全部都罰金了事了全部都罰金了事了過去三年2022、2023、2024全部都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3057.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3079.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
針對這樣子法院判決的結果從法務部的立場滿不滿意這個是法院法官的一個判決所以從法務部的立場滿不滿意當然我們希望說因為他這個一個罪行要相當嘛那你覺得這個罪行有相當嗎那這個可以再討論嘛可以再討論什麼時候要討論因為這個是主管法官在出更多悲劇以後再來討論今天就在討論這個問題嘛今天不是就在討論這個問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3084.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3100.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
還在那邊打官腔我們有打官腔喔剛剛你講的是不是官腔有直播啦全部的人都可以做社會上面的評價當然這個我們對被害人的保護我們要做一個更徹底更充實嘛那這個主管法規是衛福部的主管的法規嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3101.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3115.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那我們希望說針對這樣子刑罰的結果從法務部的立場來講滿不滿意我們希望能夠更大的一個保護嘛希望能夠更大的保護針對你這樣子的一個希望要如何落實請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3116.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3140.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
你來國會殿堂不能只講希望啊我希望幹嘛我希望幹嘛公權力在你手上啊針對這樣子的希望你認為要如何落實我們這個立法政策我們尊重衛福部的但是我們希望說這個刑度是不是可以著量再做一個加重刑度著量加重今天部長講出了關鍵詞了講出了關鍵詞來請衛福部部長針對法務部部長這樣講衛福部立場贊不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3146.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3173.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我想我們這個會針對實際上的整體的原因跟解決策略裡面來研究需要多久 一樣喔在你剛答應我一個月的報告裡面把它寫清楚喔加報防治法規定在那邊是的我不要說你連法條都不熟啦具體落實的狀況具體落實的狀況今天要提專案報告了一問三不知啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3174.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3195.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
一問三不知啊原來來立法院裡面提報告來備詢這麼輕鬆啊大家都用混的沒有關係來繼續請法務部部長來我問你連政署可不可以認定個案有沒有違反行政中立這個行政中立是屬於那個內政部主管的一個錯錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3199.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3223.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
公務人員行政中立法的主管機關是保訓會是考試院的全責嘛那這部分跟廉政署有什麼關係來我們接下來再往下看廉政署提交給國會的報告沒有執掌行政中立的事項這個是今年4月23號所提出來的報告白紙黑字在上面寫得很清楚但很奇怪非常奇怪的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3224.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3252.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
昨天 罷團新竹市罷團的領銜人出來講說 廉政署認證新竹市政府違反行政中立大家看的是一片嘩然啦我們的廉政署管很寬啦不是他法定職長的事項他發行給罷團的領銜人說新竹市政府違反行政中立現在廉政署是在助攻罷團是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3254.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3276.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
蛤 廉政署是在助攻霸團是不是我看廉政署自己就先違反行政中立啦廉政署可以幹這種事喔來我們從事實層面來開始確認廉政署有沒有發函給霸團的領銜人 有還是沒有這個有發有發嘛 是密件還是普通件 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3277.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3299.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
是密件密件的內容可以公開嗎這個我不清楚密件的內容可不可以公開你不清楚喔這個竟然密件的內容我不清楚對密件內容你不清楚這個我尊重密件可不可以公開講清楚喔密件可以公開嗎這個密件是它是寄給領銜人的是可以公開嗎這部分我 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3301.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3310.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
你怎麼樣 連法律的原則都忘了喔啊 遇到綠色的霸團領銜人講話吱吱嗚嗚的喔密切的內容可以公開嗎來 請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3313.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3342.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
還是連這點基本的法律常識都沒有了這個密件內容齁 我說實在我不知道對啦 我沒有問你密件內容嘛我只問你密件內容怎麼可以公開嘛那這個密件的內容是不是跟那個公開的是不是這樣這個我無從判斷嘛對嘛 但是我只問你一個法律的原則密件內容能不能公開這個無從判斷密件的內容能不能公開 無從判斷我的老天啊這是我國的法務部部長喔你連法律的基本原則都不敢捍衛喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3343.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3371.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
密件的內容能不能公開那這個密件的公開可不可以公開就是依公文書的解密的條件來做一個可不可以公開顯然沒有解密嘛所以可不可以公開那這個是不是要公開我並不知道嘛我沒有問你有沒有公開嘛我只問你密件的內容能不能公開嘛這個領先人他所講的是不是屬於密件的內容這我不清楚嘛我沒有問你這個問題我問你密件的內容能不能公開啊連這麼基本的原則都不敢講喔蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3372.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3394.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我剛才有答覆就是一公文書你剛沒有答覆啊 跟我問你啊 密切的內容能不能公開密切的內容可不可以公開那是一公文書解密的一個條件嘛所以咧 現在就沒有解密嘛 所以密切的內容可以公開嗎這個你不清楚 沒有關係啦 全部的人你現在在這邊的回答 我怎麼問的 你怎麼回答 你有沒有回答問題全國人民都可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3395.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3424.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
全國人民都可以看都可以來評價我們現在的法務部啊 難怪廉政署膽子這麼大難怪廉政署膽子這麼大撈過界啦不是他主管的法規啊發函然後讓霸團的領銜人大剌剌的說哇 廉政署發函給我咧內容上面寫什麼東西啊清楚的指明啊新竹市政府違反行政中立啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3425.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3449.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我的老天爺啊連這署給國會的報告說行政中立不關我的事結果現在怎麼樣為了要助攻大罷免連法律人基本的原則尊嚴全部丟在地上面踐踏法務部部長密切的可不可以公開不敢回答奇怪中華民國刑法132條不是規定的很清楚嗎這不是國防以外一祕密的文書嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3450.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3470.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
奇怪了法務部部長連中華民國刑法這麼基本的規定都忘了喔這個領先人不是公務員嘛他不是公務員他那個是犯罪主體一定要是公務員嘛非公務員那非公務員的話那個業務上的業務上嘛那這個是領先人他是所以呢這不是業務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3471.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3492.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
哇 難怪喔法務部部長現在在司法法事委員會一向說他不處理個案的法務部部長現在這麼具體的在幫個案開脫了聽了你這樣講了以後新竹地鐵署的檢察官哪裡敢不辦啊你每次都問我個案的事情要逼我問個案的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3493.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3521.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
剛剛我問你的是抽象的法律問題啊你公開密件有沒有違反法律的規定你連這個都不敢回答跟我問的不是抽象的法律問題嗎這個最抽象的問題你都是一直在問我個案的問題現在就是問我個案的問題啊剛剛是你啊急著幫那個領銜人開脫欸拜託這個是你問我的這個是廉政署的執掌項目嗎密件可以公開嗎哪一個不是抽象的法律問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3522.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3549.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
蛤 法務部長幹成這個樣子喔來 再接下來請司法院 最後一題就好金榮重犯跑掉了 中文字啊我說關係很好啦案件還細數在立法院的時候民進黨的立委啊從案件細數中到最後全部都在幫他修法開脫啊什麼叫個案的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3550.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3579.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
什麼叫妨礙司法公正啊為了個案幫民進黨的喔 麻吉喔中文字在立法院推動修法但問題來了曾經逃亡過的中文字結果後來什麼不用羈押也就算了連電子監控都不用了人現在跑了啦什麼時候查得回來我不知道人跑了啦這個是確定的事實我之前在問法務部的時候你們也承認這個裁定 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3580.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3588.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
根本一開始沒有做等我質詢完了以後才衝衝補充做但關鍵的是什麼關鍵的是說啊 充換電話紀錄電話紀錄本來高等法院是A版 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3594.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3615.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
然後呢 後來又抽換成B版不予延長科技監控檢察官有無意見從A版抽換成B版那個時候大家在質疑喔哇 高等法院膽子很大喔自己執掌上面的文書可以說改就改喔那個時候高院發函說 絕無偽造不要妄加揣測很兇啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3618.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3628.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
很兇啊對提出質疑的人說沒有偽造不要揣測來我們來看一下法務部的調查報告法務部調查報告司法院有沒有收到有還是沒有有沒有收到來請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3646.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3653.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
包括委員這並沒有發給司法院所以到目前為止你都不知道嗎那問題就來了為什麼我跟你講問題就來最後兩個層次的問題他們的調查報告說 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3660.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3678.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
當初要追尋高檢署的意見檢察官跟書記官都說並沒有問到不予延長科技監控的部分那等於是什麼等於是大家之前在質疑高院篡改電話詢問的內容不是無敵放矢喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3679.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3699.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
當初高院是恐嚇人民喔說絕無偽造不要妄加揣測喔現在是法務部的回函說沒有這件事喔那沒有這件事情的話他們卻在案件審理單上面做了這樣子的記載在通話紀錄上面做了這樣子的記載這樣有沒有公務員對職長上面的文書內容登載不實的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3702.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3726.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那個報告委員我想分幾個層次回答第一個就是司法院依司法行政可以做的那個調查呢我們確實有調查出來當時書記官在他所記載的這個時間點他有這個通聯紀錄有就是有曾經打到那個檢方的這個書記官通聯紀錄是一回事啊通聯的內容是另外一回事啊大家沒有質疑通聯紀錄啊通聯紀錄有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3728.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3750.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
重點是內容的部分啊委員那我接下來報告就是說所以說到底會不會有涉及更嚴重的行政為師或者是有沒有涉及那個犯罪化他就是要看就是說實際上他們的內容是什麼那這個部分因為已經超過我們司法行政調查那個範圍了那這個部分我想就是檢察官他們那邊也有立案來看一下齁來來來你先看一下螢幕上面法務部的回函是 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3755.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3769.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
葉金台高院法官評鑑委員會處理現在有在處理嗎司法院的那個評鑑委員會現在他們有受理這個案件所以現在正在處理當中是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3773.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3789.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個是法務部回函給我的啊你們整個內部的行政作業外界無從得知 國會也無從得知嘛到我老實跟你講 這件事情的責任我一定追究到底憑藉委員會現在在進行當中已經密集開了非常多次會議了OK 好 希望齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3790.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3815.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
評鑑委員會的結果啊 趕快出來啊不要官官相護啊 很難看啊當初新北檢 八八會館縱放郭澤民的那個檢察官評鑑委員會的結論是什麼不用負評鑑欸 不用負評鑑欸官官相護到這種程度後來懲戒法院出來了懲戒法院就認定 為師重大要罰還啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3817.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3839.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
要罰還啊當初檢察官 評鑑委員會哇 講得理直氣壯喔情節不重大不用移附懲戒結果最後出來的結果是什麼被懲戒法院打臉了為什麼大家對評鑑制度現在又開始的批評跟不滿這就是理由嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3841.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3868.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這就是理由嘛檢察官評鑑委員會當初官官相互希望相同的狀況不要發生在法官評鑑委員會好 謝謝好 謝謝委員我們接下來請黃國昌委員代理好 謝謝那下一位我們請吳宗憲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3871.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3889.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們麻煩衛福部次長然後法務部長還有警政署副署長來 衛福部次長 法務部部長 警政署副署長最後可能再麻煩複密上台複密先休息一下 等一下輪到你的時候再上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3892.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3912.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 各位早安我想一開始我還是想要提就是因為這個今天主要是我們談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情那我想還是一樣我覺得這個人民安居樂業是政府的義務然後人民免於恐懼這個是憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3915.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3935.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
要求政府該做到這是人民的基本人權所以你今天讓我們人民在路上都隨時擔心害怕然後社會治安沒有處理好其實這政府自己我覺得是要深刻檢討我想我最前面還要提的就是因為這件事情之後大家社會上面來討論說到底保護令還有沒有用我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3936.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3952.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
保護令其實我自己的觀察它還是有它的一定的效果所以它對於八成的施暴者還是有它的嚇阻作用只是說我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚譬如說我們有沒有跟他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3953.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3972.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
發生什麼狀況 家裡有什麼狀況 要趕快報警然後在拿到保護令之前其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了我們有沒有跟人民多宣導這個甚至說陪你回去家裡拿東西這個都是警察有權利做的在拿到保護令之後呢對方想要靠近 可以怎麼辦其實警察官還可以羈押他 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3974.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3989.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這個也要讓人民知道再來呢你經濟上有困難那你進行了相關訴訟甚至你可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費這個東西我覺得都要讓人民知道而且要讓受虐者他有勇氣趕出來去請求協助我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3990.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4016.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
請各位這個要記在心裡這一定要多宣導啦我們今天宣導不是就是政府都整天花力氣都在宣導罷免然後都沒有人在管這個國家的民生然後人民的安全這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任那剛好那個法務部長也有提到說確實這段時間呢這個違反保護令的案子的數字在上升嘛那剛黃委員也有提到說其實到去年已經4497件了 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4018.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4036.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
也就是我們的這違反保護令這個家暴的案子其實一直在往上爬那我今天我想要請教一下部長就是說這個案子上個禮拜在土城發生的這個案子我想請問一下到底檢方這邊有沒有依照規定通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4040.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4069.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個委員報告這個有依照那個家暴法第六第34條之一有嗎 跟哪些單位通報你知道嗎有跟那個那個家訪中心跟那個警察機關好那我再問一下就是那個副署長 副署長勤務中心接到這些通報之後他後面有沒有做後續那個查訪或追蹤的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4070.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4098.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
跟委員報告我們這個案子接到報案之後我們同仁去現場處理那我們就有依照相關的處理的這個記錄之後我們也協助被害人申請保護令而且也有通報你們是一次性還是有持續追蹤我們有持續告訴被害人如果還有其他的施暴的狀況可以跟我們警察機關報案那次長齁那你們接獲那個地檢署的家暴傳真之後那你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4101.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4113.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們是持續的來追蹤那像我再請教那你們都說是持續追蹤那請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案這個持續追蹤才結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4116.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4130.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
就備案來說他的案件如果一個是走私法那這個部分我們會力挺陪庭那另外他如果後續還有一些離婚案件我們也會有一些專家來協助以及他之後離婚之後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4132.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4152.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個所有的身心復原或者他的這個重返這個我們說正常生活的這種工作社工都會陪伴那一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間我們就會視狀況跟被害人講我們這樣的服務會告一段落好 謝謝那這個就是我們要讓人民知道就是大家都會持續追蹤嘛 沒錯沒錯 比如說一次性問導遊 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4154.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4174.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
就是去看了一下就走 這個請各位 這個要做到好 那再來我想跟部長請問一下因為部長 其實這段時間 大家都有在批評檢察官嘛就是說檢察官沒有申請羈押 包括媒體 包括民眾那像剛剛衛福部也有提到說 這個是因為檢方沒有羈押所以如果連主管機關都說 這個案子是檢方沒有羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4176.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4193.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以我跟部長講當然啦我個人覺得啦就是說這個案子我其實從案發到現在我反而是幫檢方說了不少話我說這個東西其實今天就算我去在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料你有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4194.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4209.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這也是一個困難點但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方就是你能夠提供檢察官有沒有完整的資料讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內要去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4210.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4236.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
到底伸不伸壓 這個變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點嘛那我想部長 對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子那很多人都說我們檢方司法的羈押標準不一啦有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押 但最近都會押但是有一些案子大家覺得應該要押可是呢 都沒有押然後反而後面發生了很多問題 我想部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4238.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4263.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你有沒有辦法去導正這個社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的這個質疑啊你們有沒有什麼作為我想這個是因為委內當過檢察官因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一那有相關的事證就譬如台中的違例那個刺殺案違例齁當時外界是質疑說檢察官為什麼不押什麼腳保失誤案那後來專案小組鍥而不捨後來經過幾次的搜索跟約談 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4264.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4279.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
後來那個人犯有有有羈押羈押申請羈押獲准所以這個是一個浮動性的一個證據的狀態那有沒有合乎到羈押要件一定要合乎到訴訟法裡面要的犯罪嫌疑重大要羈押的原因以及他的必要性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4279.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4293.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
所以每個案件都不一樣 說我沒辦法去講說人民不接受啊 對不對我說人民不接受不是我空口嘛就是最近的公布的民調仍然對於司法的信任度其實是不高的我跟部長報 部長應該有看到這些數據嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4295.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4312.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
人民對司法信任度不高啊然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此的不一很多 就我剛剛說的嘛 很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押 或以前根本不可能押的案子現在都會押 而且狂押押了以後就一直延押都出不來那有的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4313.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4329.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
人民覺得生無痛絕 社會痛恨死了 欸卻都沒事喔所以沒有啦 我跟部長說啦人民對於司法的信任 就是在一個一個案子他們去累積嘛你是往好的方向去累積還是往壞的方向去累積 那就部長您要想辦法解決啊 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4331.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4344.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
因為這個我們也知道這個羈押權是屬於法官嘛那這個有沒有羈押的必要性以及何謂羈押的要件跟原因或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大這個法官有審酌有的連生壓都沒生壓啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4347.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4368.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
對 所以這個個案每個一個 請你不要 那這個時候沒有生壓被敗掉說那個案件以後沒辦法我們這個證明了 的確企業不捨行 我們就生壓了我點出這個問題就好 那因為您是部長人民對司法的信任度要靠您那我們只能點出問題 那因為行政權在你手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4369.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4393.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這必須 你的義務你要把它做好不過呢 針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的 就是檢察官他在辦理類似的案子的時候他能不能夠把一些重要的東西要考量進去 譬如說被告的心理狀態啦 報復心態有沒有酒飲藥飲啦 然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用這些高風險因子 你有沒有都要提供給檢察官喔然後包括就是說被害人 被害人 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4394.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4421.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們都知道我們在開庭的時候我們常常沒有時間傳被害人來尤其在內勤的時候內勤受理現行犯的時候我們沒有時間請被害人來嘛那這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是非常的重要警察官參考的資料所以是不是法務部跟警政組這邊溝通好對於一個東西麻煩在警察的立稿裡面要特別提醒他一定要去問這個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4424.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4442.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
被告有沒有長期對他有虐待因為申請保護令今天可能是第一次但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了那所以你們在問警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個加進去問而不是就單依一次那一次申請保護令的行為因為那一次申請保護令我以前看那個筆錄啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4444.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4464.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他就只有付給我那一次的違反那個申請要申請保護令的原因嘛那在我會以為只有那一次而且通常被害人在檢察官在審理這種案子的時候他也不會來啊我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄就我不知道他過往已經被痛扁了20年所以這一塊是不是請法務部跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4466.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4486.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
警政府這邊溝通好以後警察在問家暴案件的時候能夠就被害人過往的例子也許你不在這一次你要提告的範圍內但是能夠論述清楚讓警察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法去申請羈押去做判斷請問部長跟副署長這有沒有辦法做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4487.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4507.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
跟委員報告事實上那個衛福部就是說在7月14號那個法務部、衛福部等機關對我有做一個防治性、防暴、家暴、性侵防治小組推動的一個會議事實上委員剛才關心的那個就有建立一個家暴風險評估的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4508.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4527.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那的確如果說這些的高風險的這些因子就像有時候就有產生家暴情形但是希望把這些的相關的資訊給檢察官做一個申請羈押的一個重要的所以可以嘛好可以嘛對不對那麻煩要做到那這個我以後會盯著因為我跟各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4529.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4554.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這個東西被害人論述不夠詳細這是我以前實務經驗是如此那我希望將來可以改變好不好我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要生壓因為這次我都幫檢方講話因為我說我過往的經驗即使這個案子是我審理我也不敢說我一定會生壓因為他第一次被申請家暴案件嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4554.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4561.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那過往他到底有沒有過我不知道啊然後當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚所以我沒有生涯就出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4562.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4586.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
被害人 被追殺死了 結果全部人都罵檢方那檢方不是背了這個鍋所以 是不是麻煩這一塊能夠補清楚我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的好不好好 謝謝這個部分麻煩一定要做否則啦 就是說我想民眾齁 他不是要去聽我們做 你做過什麼啦他只想看你還能做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4586.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4613.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以你一直跟人民說我們開過什麼會議啊什麼什麼人民不甩你這個他只看你還能做什麼所以我這次聽到那個 譬如說那個丹納斯颱風走了以後然後有一些地方說五天沒有電可以用那你講了再多人民不管他只說我五天沒有電可以用我很生氣 我氣政府我人民只會這樣想或是說那個 你說好嘉南平原很多地方讓人家去種電嘛很多光電都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4614.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4636.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
利用嘉南 平原 結果反而最後缺電最嚴重是他們那他們心裡會不滿嘛 他不會去管你跟他說 我為了你們做過什麼我電網顧得多好 他不會去管這個啦所以我是希望說 到底我常聽到幾句話叫做檢討 測淨 研議 永遠是這幾句話但這幾句話的意思就是 就是沒有然後 就是沒有然後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4638.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4658.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下那另外就是司法院這次報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部沒有法務部其實這點讓我蠻驚訝因為法務部明明在這個家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點包括生壓等等那我 欸 司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部所以我看完資料之後我也覺得蠻訝異的是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎還是複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4669.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4697.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
報告委員我想那個是觀點的問題因為我們提到警政署跟那個主管機關的那個社政這個部分主要是從那個保護令的核發的這個部分也就是我們這次那個主題那那個法務部的部分呢是比較在就是說當他已經就是又呈生了到一個犯罪就是違反家暴罪或者是說違反保護令罪的時候就是才會有跟那個法務部跟檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4699.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4720.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
沒有 我只是說我看報告的時候 我覺得很驚訝 司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署會服務部 但是沒有提到法務部 我只是對這個點比較有疑問因為我們是側重那個保護令的那個部份好 沒關係喔 我想今天土城的這個事情喔 社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用但是我覺得我自己的實務經驗 過往的經驗告訴我 其實有它的用處 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4722.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4734.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
絕對有用只是說我們要把不好的地方繼續把它補齊一點尤其是檢察官在生不生壓這個事情上面非常非常的重要那你必須提供給他完整的資料否則他生壓也不會過 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4736.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4751.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以還是要麻煩大家一起能夠給檢方足夠的資料法務部長 我請教一下警政署跟衛福部可以先回座這幾天有個調查官他淪為搜捕手 這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4754.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4774.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
其實我還蠻訝異的過往去年有檢察官牽涉進詐騙案件有法官直接協助詐欺集團那有更多的律師跑進去參加詐騙集團這幾年發生很多但是呢這次讓我比較驚訝的是過往這些司法人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4775.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4787.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
參加詐騙集團 他們都是從事高位階的工作可能是幕後的首腦 可能是很重要就這一次連最幾層的搜捕手都有調查官去擔任那其實這個表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4790.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4805.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
表示部裡面在這個控管上面出了嚴重的問題因為搜捕手是很低階的調官至少一個月八萬塊吧那怎麼會去當搜捕手呢那過往那個檢察官或那個法官他們至少都還是最核心的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4806.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4830.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以這讓我很驚訝我不知道部長你有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡然後第二個更重要的點是我離開檢方之後我嚴守一個點就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧以及通訊監察等等的技巧我一律封口不對外說我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽我都不教別人這個因為我覺得辦案的know-how |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4830.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4850.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
是一件很重要的事情這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德但是如果今天調查官他直接加入變成是詐騙集團的搜捕手或車手或是首腦的時候他會把我們檢方調查官他們的偵辦的手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4852.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4878.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這是國家大災難部長你們有沒有在處理這件事這個的確是非常痛心的一件事情所以這件那個台中地檢的起訴了那調查局這件非常的痛心所以馬上就決議就開考機會一次計兩大國來免職那我想這個是要一介來之絕對不可再有這種的情形尤其是我們執法人員絕對不能去做本本就是要抓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4879.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4898.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
絕對沒辦法不能夠去進入還有跟加入兆團的這種事情所以這部分我們會當一回事處理好不好這個我們一定會這個我會要求全部的我所屬的機關絕對不能去碰而且有這種的話要全力來一起來插機我跟部長報告這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的搜捕手都有調查官要去當 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4905.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4934.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
跟之前完全不一樣 之前是那幾個祖賢 首腦 重大獲利者收不手 收一本簿子才多少錢而已啊他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人 就既然我們調查官會去擋 其實這是一件很嚴重 而且國家怎麼了我們的公務體系怎麼了 會讓我嚇一跳好不好 部長這個很重要的一件事齁那第二個 還有第二件事情 就是剛剛黃委員有問的那個那個林志傑臉書的事情啊 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4934.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4960.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我會重視這件事情是因為因為那個林志傑教授他常常來我們這裡我也認識他他是一個很不錯法學素養很不錯的教授啊他怎麼會去提到這個說廉政署去認證行政不中立因為我以為的行政中立法它的主管機關是權序不違請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎有沒有權 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4962.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4985.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個不是廉政署的業管的簽證對 所以說這個論述可能有問題喔就是林教授的這個 因為我很尊敬他嘛我以前在當檢察官就常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他他竟然會認為說違反行政中立這個是廉政署認證所以這個還蠻嚴重的 這整個是大錯誤啦還是說有修法 最近有修法都廉政署可以這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4987.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5006.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
應該沒有嘛目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的一個決定那第二個就是說我也覺得比較奇怪可能要麻煩部長去了解一下為什麼林教授他會拿到這個資料我們內部是不是有人洩密如果有的話那才是真正違反行政不中立才是真正違反行政中立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5007.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5025.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
好不好就廉政署我們是常任文官嘛我們是事務官我們不能夠把資料提供給人家做政治上面的攻防好不好部長不然以後我們都是法律系畢業嘛這個的確行政中立這是一個文官應該要做的基本的那我想這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5026.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5043.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
不管是廉政署我想各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立所以我跟你講部長我們這邊在座這麼多都法律人我們都法律系畢業法律系不要以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系好不好不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭這個就不好看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5045.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5065.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那個 所以請法務部要去調查一下看到底有沒有人洩密否則為什麼這個林教授會拿到這個密件好不好他的法律依據是什麼也許他有法律依據可以拿我不知道但是你們要去調查一下為什麼他可以拿到這個密件好嗎到底是誰給他的但是你要回覆我們一下到底是怎麼回事還有就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5066.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5082.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事還有密件可否公開啦不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個又是法務部又要背黑鍋了你們是不是應該發個信用稿或請廉政署要去澄清這件事情這件事廉政署處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5085.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5099.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
處理案件的是廉政署但是廉政署沒有問題我沒有看到問題是林志傑教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立那這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪因為行政中立他是全區部那邊在管的那為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5100.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5127.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
聯政署可以認證 這就是法規上面的不對啊那我不想要法務部被黑鍋 所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告這件事情 不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念 覺得法務部或聯政署配合政治人物在那邊亂搞嘛我是為了法務部著想 所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下好不好 謝謝 那請這部分真的要出來澄清啦然後最後我請教那個 複密 最後不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5132.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5147.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個週末一直有很多網軍在帶風向他說7月11號三讀通過的那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例是預算案他說依據憲法70條立法院不能夠增加預算我想請問一下 複密 這個東西是 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5152.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5171.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我先講一個啦 大一我們都上過法學序論的課啦 對不對你也上過嘛 中央法規標準法 法律可以定名為法 律 條例 通則 這四種對不對那我想請問一下 條例是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5173.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5196.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
是不是謝謝委員垂詢齁那因為這邊是在那個立法院那司法院並不是這一個條例的那個主管之一我問你我是請教你大一的法決序論啊中央法規標準法第二條法律可以定名為法律條例通則四種東西那請問一下條例是不是屬於法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5198.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5204.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這次主要是說有一些狀況有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話他說這個特別條例的通過要編列預算所以叫特別預算就是預算的一種所以這叫做預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5224.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5239.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
然後我這邊東看西看我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦因為條例它就屬於法律的一種啦所以這個沒有說所謂的因為這個條例將來政府要編預算所以叫做預算案這個都胡說八道這個委員的法律程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5240.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5260.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我已經是長期不敢恭維了那當然他自己要開記者會他要這樣講我就尊重他的發言權利但是我覺得這法律是完全不及格不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯既然審查條例那就是法律案不是預算案立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案這兩個東西都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5261.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5283.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
法律規定是立法院可以審查的 既然它叫做條例 那就是法律案過往也有很多 像譬如說老農津貼暫行條例它就是條例 所以它是法律案所以當年賴清德要求這個從4000拉到5000塊當年也沒有人說賴清德違憲同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲 莫名其妙 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5284.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5304.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
再來 議後特別條例發六千塊 這個也都是條例所以這個都是當年立法院過的 那這個都是法律案我不懂說為什麼到今天 條例會變成預算案然後他的解釋更好笑 叫做這個條例過了以後 政府要編列預算 所以這叫預算案如果這個成立之後 那過往我跟你講幾十年齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5305.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5314.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
有非常多的案子全部違憲而且很多是民進黨完全執政實在通過的條例都會違憲2003年還有2020年都有 我查到很多條例 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5321.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5339.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我覺得很奇怪這個國家已經瘋了連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人那我再補充一個所以說昨天那個董保成教授他教憲法的嘛董保成教授就說他一出來講這個就是法律案啊這就不是預算案啊那為什麼會講這個是法律案這個是預算案不能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5340.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5361.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容264跟391就是預算跟法律完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5362.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5372.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
你這個就是假裝講的好像四字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5373.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5394.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
他依據憲法70條以及預算法91條他認為他將來不會編類不去執行我講第一個憲法70條就完全錯誤了因為憲法70條立法院完全沒有違反因為我們審的就不是預算案我們並沒有增加預算我們審的是法律案這第一個沒有違反憲法70條第二個有沒有違反預算法91條沒有通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5396.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5415.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
行政院 他說立法院沒有通知行政院 但我跟各位報告7月3號 院長召開了協商郭智輝部長親自到這邊來 而且還發表說明院長還跟他說謝謝郭部長 說得非常清楚那今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告還是郭智輝 他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5416.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5430.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
整天在那邊想他從業的事情嗎最基本該向院長報告的是都忘記報告 害院長出來講錯話說違反預算法91條請院長 總統院院長搞清楚很多事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5431.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5446.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我覺得不能亂講話 你如果不知道不能講啊你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明結果你當天 你的部長還來這裡說了一大堆耶還被院長感謝 還被立法院長感謝 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5448.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5458.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這國家不能這樣啦 不能連院長 連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人都在帶頭說違反預算法91條 違憲法70條 這個都在騙人 這個都不對我想我們還是舊法論法的時代啦那 蜂蜜 您剛剛說這跟你無關嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5469.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5498.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
好啦那我也不為難你我想可能請你講也不方便啦那我也跟各位報告過往老農津貼暫行條例以及醫後特別預算特別條例那罰六千塊那個其實都是以法例案的方式處理所以拜託有些人不要再騙人好 謝謝各位好 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝吳宗憲委員剛剛吳委員提到一個調查官竟然跑去當搜捕手怎麼會幹這麼低階的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5500.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5516.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我想警政署應該知道理由啦我想警政署應該知道理由你們如果真的有去追這個案子的話警政署就聽得懂我在說什麼好 那個我們接下來那個請就是主席還給那個昭文好 謝謝我們下一位請林倩琦委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5537.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5549.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我先交代一下背景那感謝主席然後府委員同仁非常感謝主席今天讓我們一起來針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5552.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5574.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
保護令是不是萬能然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事在發生本席這邊有些看法所以不好意思 需要請那個官員上台嗎會 可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長待會再請嗎對對對 我先交代一下衛福部次長 次次長和部長先離開部長已經先離開了嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5579.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5605.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 沒關係啦那因為土城這個案我想讓大家都非常矚目那剛才我們也在今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否那當然也有比較我們法界的專家都提到了這個檢察官生壓的重要性那今天我們就這個案件來討論它不是一個單一個案我們就從個案裡面來看一個國家保護機制在 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5608.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5627.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
維護人民安全的這樣一個關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題衛福部你們在先前的這個家庭暴力通報案件在2020年就有大約15萬件一直到2024已經到18萬件了剛才也委員指出來這樣子的案件越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5628.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5651.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
然後在案件當中呢親密關係的暴力是最多的那佔了幾乎一半通報的這個一半的數量那被害人主要都以女性為主佔比已經到了七成所以就有一些研究就開始指出國內的這個親密關係的暴力從發生到正式通報的時間現在已經有點縮短 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5652.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5668.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
大概在平均4.2年那我們的看法我這邊的看法是應該社會大眾目前對於通報意識的這個意願有逐漸提高所以也讓通報率有增加是的沒錯那這個數字本席這邊看到兩件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5668.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5697.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強所以拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了那第二個部分應該是這個案件量也勢必提升從現在開始那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報時代的制度會有一些挑戰那風險又如何控管我想這是我們今天在討論本席這邊待會要來跟你們就教的一些核心問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5698.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5727.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以我們先談一下保護性社工的量能所以在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分根據全國的資料跟時事的新聞目前整個國家應該來配置1985名的保護性的社工但是到今年7月案件發生的時候缺額還達到了610人就是大概有三分之一的人員在編制裡面沒有補足 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5727.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5753.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那更有一些律師也指出來一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件那扣除大家要做的行政與管理人力那個實際的負荷是非常驚人的那剛才我們也都提到保護令不是發下去就結束而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的這整個的概念來落實成行動那麼社工人力的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5754.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5772.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
其實有點像是我們對被害人說你們自己小心一點好自為之所以就導致剛才我們有人在討論這個保護令到底有沒有用所以目前我來請教衛福部部社工的缺額是不是有一個結構性影響家暴實質處理的風險介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5775.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5802.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那缺額怎麼樣補足那這個風險如何介入這是第一個問題那目前你們有沒有這個補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程那有沒有考慮將保護性的社工與案件比例來做一個明定或納入加防中心的評鑑或各縣市政府考積來確保整個案件的品質現在已經不是只有數量問題那本席建議啦我們是不是來比照護理人員的護病比 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5803.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5818.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來然後讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護而不是永遠疲於奔命那他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題那就導致這樣悲劇發生我們又再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5821.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5847.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
另外在第一線有督導指出社會安全網的社工起薪大概四五萬家房中心的社工大概四萬三那麼就新鮮人的起薪這樣還算可以但是目前的薪資漲幅有限那相關的配套其實還有機會進進所以衛福部這邊有沒有一些檢討要增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障那這個部分是不是以上幾個問題可不可以簡短的做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5849.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5871.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心我首先必須要說這個土城這個案件我真的是非常痛心那我們現在目前我也跟委員報告就是說這個其實整個有關保護性業務還有你說家暴我也必須要在這邊非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有我們的警政還有我們的法官還有其實裡面事實上是一個整個網絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5872.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5886.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工但是這整個事實上是一個整個社會安全網的一個整個網路的關係我剛才指出來這幾個問題你們是不是已經有在做或者是已經在研議未來要做是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5888.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5911.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以剛剛說第一點是網絡合作另外第二就是說您剛剛有問社工的部分我們現在您剛剛說是1比90我們現在目前是這樣如果說是那個成人保護的話應該是1比 案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這一個社工那有時程嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5916.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5937.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
有 我們跟各位報告 我們現在目前 其實社安網我們現在目前已經 我們有1.0 已經大概完成現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0那這裡面其實就有包括您剛剛所說的有關於社工 同仁 他的整個人員的我們原本現在缺了大約三分之一那怎麼樣 在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少 這個有一個進度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5939.298 |
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5965.591 |
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我們現在目前的整個社交網站還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我那就我剛才談的這個數據性的問題然後跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的一個做法所以我這邊也有先提出跟提醒你們那在薪資的這個漲幅你們可能也要考慮進去要不然就會跟你們其他護理人員這樣子的一個問題其實一直都存在那我跟委員報告我們在保護性社工其實比起一般社工同仁事實上我們事實上是有一個整個佳績 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5966.351 |
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我們有一個所以加擠的這個部分 是不是跟我這邊講出來的落差你們也算一下讓我這邊知道 好不好 好的 好的那接下來我們來探討一下那個橫向通報跟高風險個案的這個識別問題那有一些學者提出來就說這個制度最危險的72小時內除了通知對於實質防護的介入與當事人這個雙方心理處遇的問題其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5992.833 |
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6016.225 |
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有待加強 那我們這個制度是不是在改善的關鍵 針對有前科自制力低 甚至可能有精神問題的這個對象可不可以 有沒有建立風險的識別跟加強性追蹤的系統是不是先就這個部分來回應是 我跟委員報告 我們現在事實上 我們有一個那個TIP TIFDA的一個量表 這事實上就是所謂的風險就是說這個加害 它如果大於5的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6020.127 |
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6030.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
討論出來的人 評鑑出來的人你們有一些追蹤系統嗎包圍有 我們現在 它有一個分數啦分數大於5的話 那這樣我們就會有一個整個追蹤對於這個加害人的一個整個追蹤的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6035.275 |
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6052.605 |
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好 那個你可不可以給我相關的細節書面講比較清楚因為你們口頭回應我都沒有一個數據的這個概念好 好不好沒問題那另外在這個還有僅靠社工跟警察在繁重業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估是恰當嗎土城殺人案當中就是檢方 警方還有社政單位你們每一個單位都依法了可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事所以我們想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6064.611 |
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6091.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
各部會啦 那目前因為是我今天可能著重在這個衛福部你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎有沒有高風險個案快速的一個反應機制讓檢警 社工 警察 醫療 心理方面的人能夠很快的將這樣一個連結系統來建立所以在保護令合法的72小時之內那高風險的一個監督可以進入預防的介入你們目前有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6092.768 |
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6104.492 |
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包括有 我們如果說一旦有這個發生這個事情的時候其實我們這裡面有一個整個通報還有一個整個那個橫向聯繫的機制那我也跟委員報告我們快了 時間上我們前天才剛開完一個檢討會議我也必須要說就是說在整個保護令核發的過程裡面其實整個我們警政同仁還有我們社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊我想我們的一些相關的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6121.417 |
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6123.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
司法院有一個問題很快要請教因為上次也是時間的關係就沒有列入公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6140.332 |
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6148.821 |
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這個問題是有關於你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件的裁判費的調整措施本席在4月9號是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊他說要給本席一個報告然後10號應該是複密署長在這邊但是你們廳長這邊也沒有給我報告那這個問題其實是蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6159.232 |
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6174.032 |
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我可能在這邊先提一下未來有機會我還會再監督這件事所以上次我跟副秘書長在談到你們這個訴訟費調整的一個措施你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情後來我相信你也有查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6174.372 |
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所以其他的委員會跟您在詢問的時候也有做了一些回應但是本席在這邊要提的就是說雖然你們的原因是因為物價跟行政成本上升所以你們做了一個非送事件跟民事訴訟的裁判費的一個調整但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況本席這邊要來提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6199.514 |
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6219.777 |
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你們在訴訟標的在新台幣十萬元以下裁判費就增加了五成基本上就一半了那第二個部分是在十萬到一千萬之間的增加了三成那麼非財非產權事件在審申請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成雖然二十幾年沒有調 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6220.478 |
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6233.95 |
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但是這樣子的這個調升那是不是對中小企業來講衝擊是非常的大那麼對當然企業如果比較大他的資本比較雄厚或許影響沒有那麼大但是對中小企業來講應該是非常大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6235.731 |
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6245.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那尤其對一般民眾這個影響應該是更大這是本席上次要提出來的但是因為第一天是4月9號這個廳長後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告他當場是承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6252.577 |
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6267.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
但是隔一天是您這邊您當然也知道這個那天我看我們也沒有機會討論來溝通但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的一個狀況最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6269.272 |
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| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
民眾所碰到的這些問題其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映所以以司法院來講當然你們透過物價調升一個成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6285.596 |
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訴訟費但是呢對於一般民眾好像財產爭議啊身份確認家事的這個糾紛或原本對裁判不服的這樣一個救濟程序都因為你們的調生而產生的影響這衝擊是非常大的這個是實質上的一個問題但是另外也就是說你們在以這樣子一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6305.063 |
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6328.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
行政成本的提高來調升的情況下你們在調升的時候也沒有充分告知跟有一些討論所以導致本席剛才講的一般民眾其實有一些影響那針對低收入戶、中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人我想影響更大你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6329.554 |
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6357.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那個首先我先回答最後一個問題就是有關於就是說如果那個當事人他因為經濟上那個弱勢而沒有辦法就是使用那個來打訴訟的話那這個為了確保人民的這個司法禁用權跟訴訟權法律實際上都有設計這個訴訟救助那個訴訟救助的這個制度他其實是可以來利用的所以你們有針對他們有一些彈性的責免機制的一個設計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6359.313 |
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6371.363 |
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那你可以簡單的回應嗎?就是他可以向那個法院申請就是說 先剛開始的時候可以免納就是這個訴訟就做了那個制度開始的時候免納 那以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6375.346 |
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6392.319 |
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跟委員報告 訴訟就做裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序桌所預繳的費用是減掉一部分的費用就全免然後等到訴訟結果出來以後再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6393.14 |
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因為基本上就會有兩兆 不是被告 那就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎對 因為民事處都會有訴訟費用本席講的是 因為你們調升了這個費用但是可能在一開始對於民眾他們就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理那這個部分可能 我在講說因為費用很高 所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6414.011 |
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6434.471 |
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或是他會擔心後續跟委員報告一下其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成五成聽起來好像非常龐大可是實際上它是一千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6435.672 |
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6459.502 |
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回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是多了五百元 妳先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增加一半也很多通常我們在調薪的時候 就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的 五百塊對妳來講可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6460.562 |
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6476.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不多 但是對一般民眾來講它就會成為一種考量那這個比例像是非常高的跟委員報告齁其實那個調整除了就是反應物價之外也有一個很大的就是事實上是一個策略的一個考量那你的意思是說你們東西如果不是很重要的時候你就不要來進入這個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6478.228 |
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6504.726 |
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在我國我們有很多就是訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度啊像是那個鄉鎮調解或者說到法院來的時候有很多調解跟和解的這些那個機制那我們也希望說民眾就是說如果說他現在的這些財產權事實上是在的這些爭議是在幾萬元就是不是這些那個龐大化他們可以先使用就是說法院以外的訴訟以外的這一些那個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6510.369 |
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6528.118 |
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訴訟費調升是也變成是對民眾的一種門檻那民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的這個了解然後先不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟他可以去選擇他可以去多講的好聽一點是他可以去選擇啦那講的比較實務的部分呢因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6531.239 |
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6553.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
複雜跟一個非常龐雜的一個程序但是就是說基本上你們也拿這個訴訟費的提高我想那是一個比例原則啊那是一個比例原則就是我們調高的事實上是額度就是說他那個請這樣好了本席可以請教所以你們在這個過程當中有充分跟民眾來告知或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎有學者的參與嗎那個委員因為我是那個就是當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6559.352 |
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6585.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對 那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月間很久了這個很抱歉 這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個 那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟延期它要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的究竟途徑 |
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6586.357 |
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那這個其實民眾就要在法律的這個概念上基本上要提高很多那這個門檻是不是適用我們司法院其實做蠻多宣導的就是說民眾可以多使用這些那個替代措施就是所謂的那個ADR就是說像對阿到鄉鎮條件專業來講我們都知道這個是什麼但是就一般民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6607.964 |
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6629.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們召委,我就要講一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西, |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6631.229 |
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6653.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有一點overloading所以本席這邊指出來是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6654.204 |
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6676.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6677.734 |
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6687.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊喔就是口頭是不是對對對是是是對你們有那個相關的資料但是專案報告另外先前在政策形成的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人這個詳細我們再補 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6697.22 |
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6722.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6723.553 |
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6750.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
然後再來是你們雖然也剛才您說你們有做一些宣導所以這個宣導的效能跟你們有時候講了那講了呢民眾知不知道他的困難點在哪裡還是說你們就是講了但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在所以這是本席的幾個重點好不好那請你回去如果說那個時候您還沒有到職那可不可以看一下相關的這個資料然後再給本席一個比較完整的一個回應好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6750.925 |
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6765.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好的 這件事情我會一直提啦所以請你們還是確認一下看這整個過程當中合不合適然後尤其是對民眾的衝擊這個是我們最關心的 好不好好 謝謝謝謝 現在我們請王逸川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6787.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6807.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
好 謝謝召委 我們是請這個衛福部麻煩次長請這個移民署麻煩移民署委員好好 次長是請教一下現在對這個法院核定的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6810.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6836.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
暫時保護令還有通常保護令的時間20幾天跟50幾天站在衛福部的立場這個數字你的感覺是什麼報告委員我們站在我們立場我們首先必須要講一下就是說所有我們這些真的是網絡合作大家都是齊心協力那關於這個部分站在我們的立場我們當然希望能夠加快 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6837.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6861.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就是說整個的時間上面能夠來加快但是這個裡面我們也知道整個檢察官還有法官他們在審酌相關的這一個部分他確實需要更多的一些整個資料這個緊急的是2到3個小時對 沒錯 緊急的話是2到3個小時那這個暫時要到23天依照你的瞭解 或者是部里頭同仁的瞭解這個為什麼要這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6865.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6890.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
緊急規定四個小時以內而且它就是有立即發生可以在電話通訊上面處理是快速的那也不用太多的舉證但是暫時保護令跟通常保護令如果他申請的款項越多他舉證市民的內容要更多而且他要開會審理就是開庭審理所以你們可以接受啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6891.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6914.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
按照站在備案立場我們當然是越快越好但是法官他在審理上面他有他的職權那這個部分我們是當然是一直在要求也在每次的會議裡頭也跟司法院拜託是不過司法院有他的理由問你接不接受我們可以理解啦你們可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6915.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6933.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就是說衛福部針對這種暫時保護令跟通常保護令二十幾天到五十幾天站在衛福部的角度你們是可以接受的不是 包委員我們當然是希望能夠對被害人來說當然是希望能夠趕快啦但是這裡面確實就是說趕快跟這個數字之間你認為癥結在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6941.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6958.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
是這個當事人這個被害人啊他舉證啊或者是更是更的這一個提出了相關的說明啊或者是他的申請啊這一類的對法官來說啊哇你每次都不完整啊我就跟他調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6959.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6972.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
就跟他拖很久,我們法官也很忙,要叫我們裁決,我們資料都不夠,你說的都一天兩天,當然也時間會拖很久嘛是這樣嗎?等一下等一下,是不是這樣?是嗎?那問題就出在你們啦你們要協助啊?如果讓那個當事人自己去跟法院去對這些東西啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6989.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6991.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以這樣的時間當然會拉很長那這個對法院來說這個案子他也不可能為了你一個案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7000.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7029.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
專注在一個案子處理起來因為他手上一定很多案子要採所以這個是可能這個衛務部要跟這個當事人這樣的一個機制能縮短我覺得這個縮短不在法院縮短應該是衛務部協助的讓他能夠這個大家對上的這個速度更快第二個衛務部判斷應該申請保護令而沒有去申請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7032.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7058.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
應該申請保護令喔而他沒有去申請他可能很怕去申請他申請了會繼續被打就說我去申請結果被那個這個打我的人知道說你竟然給我申請他會怕嗎或者是這一個壞人啊這個加害人直接跟那個備案講說你去給我申請看看聽說你喔要申請你就給我申請看看申請一次打一次就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7060.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7078.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
你們判斷這種第一個他不知道要申請或者是他威脅不能申請的黑數黑數所以我們現在這個司法院那裡都有統計就是每年幾件幾件那你衛福部站在你們的角度你認為這個黑數大概會有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7080.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7109.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
應該逐年有降低因為大家開始宣導然後但是的確還是存在有這個所謂的權控關係甚至呢有這個威脅恐嚇那特別是因為他們的是一個家庭成員關係基於面子問題當然有考量到如果一旦申請之後這件事情就已經是公諸於世了那可能他後續有一些擔心疑慮就如剛才委員所說的的確是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7110.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7116.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
衛福部看委託什麼學校的老師把這個黑數了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7118.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7146.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這個黑數一定存在沒錯那存在的原因大概了解一下讓自己能夠知道說不要只看到司法院那個數字司法院那數字已經拿進去申請了嘛那有一些他就不敢去申請嘛好的這一個數字好接下來請教這個因為我在很多的這個部會的報告裡頭看到說你們都要督導直轄市政府縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7148.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7177.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那你們督導 所以實際上負責這一些相關的這種保護令 相關這種輔導聽起來都在縣市政府 是這樣嗎是的 沒錯包委 我們現在目前就中央這邊我們衛福部事實上是有關於這個相關的政策跟法律啦但是持續的執行地方的話就是說有那個社會局裡面還有家庭暴力防治中心但是事實上這事實上是一個整個網絡這個除了以家防為中心事實上我們也需要警政的這個同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7179.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7184.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
各別的個案啊 各縣市政府如果沒有做好的話 你們怎麼督導啊在這裡面我們會有一些相關的一些整個考核啦像那個社政考核 還有像 當然主要還是教育訓練我再譬如說今天早晚排這個會議嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7202.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7229.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
像這樣的一個很明確的這個個案站在衛福部的角度衛福部一定會問這個縣市政府沒錯 包委我們就是在禮拜三我們才剛召開一次請新北來說一句話衛福部一定會請這個縣市政府說明這一個個案嘛然後這個縣市政府的社會局過去在這個個案裡頭做了什麼事嘛沒有什麼需要精進的作為嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7231.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7246.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那請問這個個案現在的縣市政府他們的社會局過去處置的作為是一個通案的處理還是這個案子有比較不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7249.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7261.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
跟委員說明這個案子是一般案件就親密關係暴力案件的一個縮影也就是它是一個同案那我們在處理上面分兩個部分我不講你們 我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7263.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7284.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個縣市政府這個是一個通案就是說發生在各個縣市政府那相關地方政府的社會局也都是這樣子處理的所以這個案子在你們看起來這個縣市政府的社會局在這個案子裡頭就只是這個地方政府他們裡頭的一個通案之一啦是是這樣講沒有錯嗎好那這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7287.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7303.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
就是說這是一個通案那也發生了所以站在部裡頭的立場那你們總是要有作為嗎我們有訂一個叫做重大家庭暴力案件的一個檢討的一個計畫我是說它是一個通案那也發生如果它今天是一個個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7303.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7329.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們沒有必要討論討論個案是沒有意義的討論個案就大家開始推說這個縣市政府的社會局在搞什麼東西這個衛福部在搞 這是個案嘛但是我們現在討論的是一個通案那通案也發生悲劇喔現在這個是一個通案 那也發生悲劇所以站在部裡頭的立場總是要去改變的而不是說找來縣市政府大家來開個會我們考核一下 評鑑一下然後呢 這個找幾個專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7333.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7344.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
怎麼學者專家去輔導弄完之後做個會議記錄結案這個事情還是沒有解決因為這一個通案還是發生了悲劇嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7346.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7364.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
報告委員其實我們在事後有一些檢討其實最主要事實上就是陳如剛委員所說的這個通案的機制那這個機制裡面其實最主要就是說保護令當然是由這個法官他來裁定可是事實上就是說在整個檢察官他到底要不要就法官檢察官要不要提起之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7365.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7379.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
事實上有兩兆的資料一個是左邊就是警察警察要提供一些相關的一些案件還有社工這邊我們事實上他也要提供更詳細的譬如說他的家庭背景還有事件發生的平均這案子也有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7380.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7405.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
社工都還沒介入嘛我不知道這個案子啦我說這種案子有可能社工從頭到尾也不知道嘛因為它就發生在家庭內部社工也不知道所以你要請社工提供什麼其實難度也很高啦我說這個案子如果既然是一個通案最後也發生了悲劇那顯然就是部裡頭的相關的機制要調整沒錯 沒錯好 接下來我請教這個移民署啊好 謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7407.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7423.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這移民署因為你們的報告裡頭也有提到關於這個可能是新住民這身份的人他們有受到相關他們有申請保護令的這些課題嗎我看你們各案都有十四幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7425.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7452.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
請問這個新住民朋友在台灣啊受到家暴他們知道申請保護令嗎我們都會在宣導我們在服務站都有辦應該是這樣我們新住民一來的時候我們都會有關懷訪視那如果說也會做一些相關的法律宣導那每個服務站定期會辦一些講座的話那有關家暴的那些宣導都是在那個講座裡面都會做這一方面的宣導那參與的人數很少嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7455.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7475.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們會另外我們有培立網那網站上也會有包括新住民培立網是網站跟實體上的多語言的啦多語言也有多語言的這個家暴的這些類似的保護令的申請的方式有我們在新住民的培立網上會有那你們覺得現在這個事實起見是合理的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7477.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7496.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們是盡量啦因為就像委員講可能會有些黑數存在那我們也是一樣你們既然是移民署嘛新住民朋友來到台灣他未必還沒拿到中華民國的身份證這一類的嘛他來到這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7497.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7515.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
他可能對中華民國法令也不熟對這些可以保護他的措施他也不熟那會前去參加你們這些宣導活動的新住民朋友也許也不多那他可能在台灣各個角落那他可能也會遇到這些跟家暴有關的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7516.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7534.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
他也求助無門他也不覺得應該求助啦也有可能是這樣啦反正就是來到這裡了嘛這裡就這樣了也許有人就這樣認為那有些人他要求救他也不知道向誰求救嘛那有一些他可能就去跟這個他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7536.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7564.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
原來的這個國家的朋友剛好大家聯絡上你可以去申請什麼家暴令、保護令諸如此類的事情我是說移民署在這件事情上要想辦法因為畢竟中華民國的國民在這裡大家在不管語言上各式各樣的宣導上大家是清楚的可是新住民朋友來他可能對這一個中華民國有在保護的這件事情他不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7565.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7581.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那移民署這個我知道你們都有例行性在辦這些活動但是參與的畢竟都還是整個新住民朋友參與的總人數比例上還是比較低啦所以這個我是建議移民署在這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7583.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7602.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
應該要能夠來協助否則很多新住民朋友如果在家庭裡頭發生這些事情真的我們也看不到他也不太容易跟外界接觸到說他被家暴這一類的事情這一塊可能移民署你們要努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7602.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7628.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
去想辦法來協助透過各地的協會各個不同國家在這邊他們都有新住民相關的協會他們是團體就是請他們也來協助提醒他們說這個事情其實中華民國是有保護的不要讓他們在這邊覺得很孤單這樣子也不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7629.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7654.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好不好 好 那希望移民署在這個題目上能夠努力 謝謝謝謝委員主席好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 謝謝主席首先我先請 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7657.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7659.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
徐次長 因為縣部長已經離開了徐次長還有張司長 檢察司的張司長麻煩次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7669.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7685.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
市長好,我想現在這個大罷免其實已經進入了最後的階段,那在這段很緊張的時間裡面,我們也看到了目前陸陸續續,其實一直以來一直都有很多造謠的文宣, |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7687.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7712.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那麼還有呢也有看到霸團現在因為都在吹票所以也出現了一些可能涉及到契約會選的相關的案件那麼以這個我們這兩天看到的這個新聞就是賴昆成這個農業信用保證基金會的董事長賴昆成那麼他在臉書上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7713.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7733.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
就有po了這個文就說那如果這個花東罷免能成功就會號召親朋好友包台鐵專列發起萬人遊花東時速伴手禮都會安排挺大的商家那麼這段文字說實在話其實已經也構成了違反選罷法這個契約會選的這個相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7737.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7745.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
然後呢不只如此啦還不只這個例子然後我們也看到在花蓮縣議會的民進黨團的總召張美惠議員同樣的也是說她願意出資包遊覽車然後在外漂的青年返鄉投票投這個罷免票 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7757.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7785.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那麼諸如此類的案件請問就是檢查署這邊是不是應該要有所動作我當然不是只是指這兩個個案還有就是還有其他的一些相關的案件我想現在檢調單位應該是隨時都要去關注類似的這樣的一個可能涉及到有不法情勢的案子並且要積極的要啟動調查否則的話我覺得這是已經妨害投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7786.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7813.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
防害這個有關於這個罷免投票的一些問題各位委員報告我想委員指教的都是正確的那相關剛才委員所提到的這兩個案子那台東地檢署已經簡報分案那另外一間花蓮地檢署是借貨電話檢舉也都已經分案我想這是具體的個案那在這裡我們也不方便干預或指示或指導不過委員提到一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7814.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7829.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
任何外力來干預罷免投票的進行的話都是違法行為那本部所屬的各檢察機關 調查局在接獲類似的情資一定會全力的進入了解查查 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7830.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7846.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好那麼謝謝次長那當然本席這邊也要提醒另外一個案子就是這個林志傑教授他在今年大概也是三四月的時候就是反正總之就是到這高雄的一家咖啡廳他說請人家喝咖啡然後說要發臨署書 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7847.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7871.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那麼這個案子其實已經有經過舉發大概四月份的時候就已經舉發了可是到目前為止其實也都沒有任何下文雖然說好像聽起來就是有地檢署已經也分案了不過只要在這裡提醒的就是說因為現在外界對於整個司法選擇性辦案只辦藍不辦綠的這個印象是非常之深而且也多所批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7871.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7889.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我認為說法務部其實在這個事情上面其實要特別的謹慎最好就是你的辦案的標準做法速度一致那麼就不容易讓就落人口實讓人質疑說司法是不是有雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7892.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7912.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
報告委員我們執法絕對沒有雙標也沒有所謂的辦哪一個政黨不辦哪一個政黨的問題那剛才委員所關心的這個案子呢新竹地檢署在今年的3月26號就已經分案那目前是移轉到熊檢接續偵辦中我想所有的偵辦的進度方向都按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7913.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7933.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
檢察官他所排定的期程在進行中那也算是因為是具體個案那本部也不方便干預或者是指示或指導我想這個委員剛才所提醒的都是對的那我相信檢察官依法來來偵辦案件的話絕對不會有任何的特定的預設立場我想這個是大家可以放心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7934.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7936.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 那麼我想謝謝次長這邊的回覆但是這些案子是全民都在看全民都會去關注到底我們的檢調單位的辦案的進度如何那麼這個辦這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7949.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7968.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
其他的政黨的案子是如此的迅速可是呢如果說一旦涉及到跟綠營有關的相關的案子呢那速度又如此的緩慢我想這是大家都會看在眼裡那這邊也提醒次長這個要特別注意有關於司法雙標的問題好那謝謝您請您先回那麼我接下來呢要請問的是司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7979.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7981.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
王富密王富密早因為今天的專題報告主要是談保護令所以這邊有些問題想請教您我們知道其實前些日子在新北市土城發生了旱事 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8002.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8027.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
有家暴記錄的謝姓男子因為違反保護令那檢察官當時沒有向法院申請羈押也沒有責付等等強制處分後來開庭後就無保釋毀那但是隨即這個違反保護令的這謝姓男子就當場就砍殺了他的妻子還有他的小姨子那目前這個謝男是在羈押章當中那隔天呢又有另外一個也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8029.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8050.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
有家暴記錄的父親他的太太雖然有申請保護令獲准可是有家暴的父親他無視於保護令還是當街對孩子施暴只是因為他小孩不小心打翻飲料所以這父親氣到當街拿著安全帽猛打 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8050.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8067.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
等等那像這些事情這些案子其實讓我們一再的去重新檢視到底家庭暴力防治法裡面所設置的這個保護令制度在法治以及在實務的執行上有沒有需要補強的地方那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8071.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8094.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們首先來看就是其實從2023年加暴法修法之後也擴大了保護範圍還有強化數位性暴力防治以及預防性羈押的那些措施那麼從衛福部的相關通報案件的數據來看也看到整個的案件比例是上升的那這當然也一方面顯示了民眾通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8095.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8115.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
的意識提升但是另外一方面也顯示出家暴問題是越來越嚴重我們可以看到不管是在各個不同類型裡面的家暴案件從120年到113年其實都明顯的提升但是在這裡有一個問題就是說其實法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8121.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8138.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
在合法家暴令的這個這樣的一個程序當中其他還有一些不同的這個可以處置的措施包含可以針對加害人去實施處遇計劃依照家暴法第14條第三項的規定那麼可以針對家暴人去 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8141.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8158.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個要求他要完成一定的處遇計畫那法院可以命相對人接受認知教育輔導 親子教育輔導 心理輔導 其他輔導 以及就是可以要求命相對人接受有沒有必要實施精神治療 靜癮治療 以及其他治療處遇計畫的鑑定評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8160.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8184.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
这是在我们法条里面我们清楚的规定可是呢现在就是在实务上面有出现一些对于法官来讲比较难处理的问题就是如果说今天有相对人他不配合去进行处狱计划的鉴定的时候以目前来说有没有相关的处罚机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8188.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8188.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個部分我讓那個廳長來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8193.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8220.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
謝謝委員有關處一計劃的鑑定叫省權鑑定如果是加害人不願意到場法官就會繼續開庭強制他到庭那麼地方主管機關所組成的鑑定小組有醫師、社工師、心理師等我們法院有提供讓他鑑定的處所所以是用這個方式以通知書命他一定要到場那如果他不到場呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8222.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8245.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那如果他都不到場因為我們已經有調取了相關的資料那三位專家委員看到資料以後他有兩個處理方式一個就是說他這樣已經足以提出鑑定報告書給我們那所以相對的人就沒有到場那另外一種一定要到場的那我們就會強制他到場或到醫院去鑑定這是這兩個方式來進行以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8245.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8257.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
其實我的意思就是很簡單我的問題很簡單就是如果說今天命當事人要來做鑑定但他不做鑑定如果說依照剛剛廷長的這個解釋好像還是沒有聽到就是他有沒有任何的法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8259.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8285.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
還是只是說是目前沒有定法則但是呢那個法官的通知書裡面已經命他什麼時候到哪個地方通常都是到法院鑑定那這個命令他如果違反那我們下一個部分就是會請那個家防官就是他轄區家防官去告知法官強制他到場這樣子那他如果不到場呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8288.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8303.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那不到場最後我們會也交給那個主管機關組成的三人鑑定小組就直接就寫了這個鑑定報告要收集資料我們會把他所有相關的資料都收起現在就是說是因為這也是有這個法界的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8306.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8329.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個法官他們有反應 其實沒有這個督促跟裁罰的機制其實會造成就是說是真的要求當事人要去做鑑定 可是他們就不從那這個後續的程序也很多 如果剛剛聽廷長那樣解釋的話所以我認為說這個部分可能建議司法院要研究看看是不是要增加相關的裁罰的機制好 那麼接下來還有第二個部分就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8331.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8353.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
現在依照家暴法第十四條第一項第三款的規定命相對人簽出被害人目睹家庭暴力兒童及少年或特定家庭成員的住居所這是法官可以要求可能有家暴嫌疑的相對人他要簽出那麼因為法院核發簽出令之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8354.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8378.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
可能這當事人他也搬了但是事實上當事人沒有義務去主動呈報他最新的住所所以一旦發生了這個事情之後其實法官也不知道說這個相對人他要搬出他確實也搬了但他搬到哪裡不知道這是目前實務上面有沒有可以處理的這個機制或是你們有沒有思考過這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8380.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8383.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這部分我們發了簽署令以後立即會通知分局的加防官去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8395.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8406.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那分局交往去執行的時候就會要求他把東西弄好 簽出來那這時候會有個執行書上面會記載他簽到什麼地方怎麼聯絡然後再回覆給我們目前的機制是可以確認才有辦法繼續通知他來繼續開因為這時候有時候 但是現在就是說很多法官他實際上就在發通知的時候也找不到這個人因為他可能只是說他說他搬出去搬到哪個地方那後續沒有追蹤嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8425.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8450.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
目前我們所有家事庭都是聯絡那個家防官 轄區的家防官去查核 回報給我們好吧 反正就是實務上來講事實上這個執行機關是很難掌握到當事人的行蹤也很難就是有效的去執行相關的通知那還有一個問題就是說因為 請問現在這個保護令的案件涉及保護令的案件 收不收裁判費 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8453.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8475 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
是不收嘛 就是目前這個保護力的案件是不收裁判費所以當事人是可以比較容易的就提出申請啊那麼但是現在實務上也遇到這個問題就是如果說申請之後當事人他不依照通知出庭也就是法官可能庭期都安排好了然後也告訴他什麼時候可以月卷等等的但是後來當事人他臨時又撤回 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8476.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8502.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
撤回案子這實務上好像還蠻常發生這樣的一個問題那麼最後可能法院法官也浪費了時間那麼同時也可能會耗費很大量的時間經歷 油資費用等等多次去通知當事人但是卻都聯繫不上這是實務上常常會看到的一個狀況這種情況是不是會造成司法資源的嚴重浪費同時也增加了司法人員的工作量 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8503.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8525.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
也就是說不收裁判費這件事情它可能會造成濫刑的去申請保護令那個謝謝委員垂詢確實就是說收不收裁判費它確實就是這個政策它一定就是有它考量的點那但是也會有就是說它的那個弊端那當時確實這個也是那個就是經過了很多研議之後的那個策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8527.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8554.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那要另外跟那個委員報告就是說在實務上其實那個撤回齁他比較大的一個就是說我們實務端會比較concern就是說因為家暴的這個申請人常常是處於那個弱勢所以說他這個撤回他到底是不是爭議所以說在我們就是法院端接到那個撤回的時候通常我們還會開啟後面的程序就是說把他那個轉介到駐法院的這一個那個家暴那個中心啊就是去讓他去接觸那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8555.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8570.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
跟當事人真正再一次評估說這個撤回是不是等於他的那個爭議好了解然後我想我最後一個問題基本上也要提醒就是先回到剛剛就是說因為不徵收裁判費所以呢常常會看到有些已經安排好的這個保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8571.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8595.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
令的案件的停期等等就突然之间又没有办法开而且其实现在家事法庭的法官他们的压力负担是非常重的所以呢这个部分我认为说应该通案的检讨然后呢最后就是说有关于就是现在我们看到就是要求这个实务上要求加害人的处遇计划常常面临到加害人的参与动机很低中途逃脱中途脱落率很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8599.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8618.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那麼也就是說你給他了一些相關的處遇計畫但實際上也沒有完成那這個事情的話我希望就是是不是法務部可以對不起司法院可以給我一個報告因為就你們現在報告來講只有提供違反保護令法院審理案件數已經裁判結果但是並沒有就違反強制處遇計畫的案件數進行統計資料是 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8622.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8642.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
對 那這部分是不是可以請司法院之後給我一個你們的統計資料就是到底實際上它的完成率為什麼那麼低 而且這個就是就是實際上沒有看到相關的案件統計書 好不好 那就請司法院會後再提供給我好 麻煩你們可以兩個星期之內提供給我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8646.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8651.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們先做會議程序的宣告稍後在李委員昆城詢答完畢後休息五分鐘接下來我們請省委員發會進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8689.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8712.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
主席各位同仁我們今天這個我們討論就保護令的部分來討論事實上從早上的詢答到現在大概其實這個保護令問題我想這次發生這樣的悲劇這個社會各界當然大家都會很重視而且有很沉重的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8713.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8731.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那但是我們在這個委員會我想我今天大概還是希望說就整個保護令問題他很多很多的環節我希望說能夠聚焦我個人聚焦在幾個環節第一個首先是這個保護令的核發有關保護令核發的部分我可能要先請司法院麻煩複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8732.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8743.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
等一下我們會再就違反保護令罪的這些兩行的裁判第三個部分是針對落實保護令的執行第三個部分可能要請衛福部這邊來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8744.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8757.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
首先先就保護令的核發的部分其實剛剛大家都有談到我們保護令分成通常的保護令還有暫時的保護令還有緊急的保護令這個保護令因為它 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8764.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8782.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
三種不一樣的型態所以事實上它的核發率也都不一樣就是說申請到這個核發那我看這個保護令核發的統計這也是我們今天的書面報告所列出來的數據這個事實上如果是緊急保護令因為它緊急所以它的核發率事實上是很高的到94% |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8785.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8798.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
但是到這個暫時保護令跟通常保護令這個核發率就差不多掉到七成四到七成七之間了那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8802.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8827.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
相當有四分之一的比例的案件是被駁回或者是被害人自行撤回也有可能他會凸顯說我們在合法標準可能在不同的地院不同的法官還有他可能會存在間諜不一致或者是對於證據門檻的要求不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8831.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8850.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
就叫我們司法院是不是有掌握我們不同的地院不同的法官在合法的標準上面有沒有不一致的狀況我們有沒有一個審理的參考指引或者一個共通的判準我們目前有沒有做這樣子的參考指引或者是共通判準的一個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8851.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8868.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 謝謝委員那委員這個部分因為涉及比較那個食物的問題我請那個廳長來回覆因為過去事實上幾年前也有具體有這個輿論指出說某地院的某法官他只要是這個保護令他就一律不合法的狀況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8871.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8895.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
謝謝委員的推詢那我們這個我們通常保護令跟那個緊急保護令我們都有核發那個法官審查的一個指引有這個指引有這個指引具體的指引同時我們也統計各法院核發的一個高低然後這個就是我要問的有統計各法院核發的高低有那我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8897.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8917.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個各地方法院的各縣市的地方法院的核發率的落差或者是有異常的情形有沒有這個我們統計出來一看齁我們兩個部分一個就是說核發率速度最後一個就是這個所謂處理計畫令核發這三個數據我們都有去比較分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8918.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8947.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
有沒有這個比較大的落差或是異常的情形過去有沒有發現我不用具體指數啦報告委員到沒有發現說落差到這個10個百分比以上沒有異常到10個百分比大概都是3到6個百分比的一個落差但是我們就在教育訓練裡面找了許多的專家來訓練這個部分就是我要講的重點就是我們的這個內部教育跟這個內部改善的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8948.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8966.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
雖然說沒有差到10個百分點以上但是你可能有就是就是這個這個這個地院他就一直他的狀況他的核發率就就一直偏低他他在在整個整個這個這個統計過程裡面他的狀況就偏低是不是他對於這個證據的的的門檻要求比較嚴格或者是他他這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8969.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8986.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
對他的見解可能跟其他的地緣有不一致的地方這部分就是我希望就是我們應該一定要針對各個地方法院做這樣的統計如果異常或者是這個這個落差比較大的狀況我們要做內部教育的改善或者是去探討他的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8988.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9011.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我現在講到這個統一見解的部分好謝謝我講到統一見解的部分我就就另外一個也是在這個家暴防治法裡面有關統一見解上面認定的一個比較困難的地方就是關於這個家暴防治法第三條第一項第二款現有或曾有同居關係這個家長家屬或家屬間關係者這個同居關係的認定這從我們從2007年開始把這個同居關係放進這家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9016.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9019.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
暴力防治法但是事實上到現在為止這個同區關係的認定我們現在還沒有一個統一的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9025.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9049.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
好 謝謝委員催省 目前因應這個大法官748這個所謂同性同居關係 對 擴大目前所有實務家事法官受訓以後我們都是採比較寬鬆的認定 採比較寬鬆的認定只要曾經共同居住同儕生活一小段時間都算入以保護這個危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9051.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9079.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這個部分判準要統一啦不然這個常常會導致這個被害人沒有辦法及時獲得保護令是針對統計關係的認定上面因為過去的標準一直都不是很一致這部分我希望說能夠統一標準那接下來我就針對我講的第二個問題關於違反保護令罪的一個法律效果的部分這是我們的這個違反保護令罪這個家庭暴力防治法第61條它所零零總總有許多的規定它其實規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9081.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9090.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個違反了所有這些款項條目全部都是所謂違反保護令罪那我看這個違反加罷法第61條的這個違反保護令罪我看這個統計數字我們這個資料是從這個111年開始到今年的5月的統計數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9102.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9125.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那這個整個你是不是看一下我所提供這個表這個也是你們的書面報告裡面的統計那這從111年到今年5月雖然我們在這個第61條規定它的行度是三年以下有期徒刑但是事實上我們看這個統計到一年這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9130.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9154.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
真正大多數的判決都是6個月以下的有期徒刑有2335個罪次那拘役有7000多個罪次罰金有300多個罪次那徒刑超過6個月只有52個罪次真正判到一年以上的我們剛剛列這個時間一年以上只有兩個人只有兩個人判到一年以上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9157.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9177.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這樣子的判刑我們實務上的判刑我想了解這樣對於高風險的累犯我們有足夠的嚇阻力嗎那個謝謝委員垂詢那個確實這一塊就是因為違反違反保護令他跟那個實施那個家庭暴力罪是不一樣的所以說這個部分他那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9183.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9207.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
其實那個司法院也有訂了就是給那個刑庭那個法官就是有關於這一個部分那個量刑那個審酌那個事項參考那我想這個部分最重要就是說法官他要有這一個部分的這種危險那個意識啊就是他在有這種敏感度這四年多來齁這個拘役有七千多個這一次但是真正到一年判到一年以上的時候只有兩個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9209.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9227.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
只有兩個人但是我們事實上刑度是要三年以下我們一年以上都只有兩個人而已所以這個對於這個當然這個每一個個案有每一個個案狀況法官會就個案下去審酌然後予以良心但是這樣子的統計結果對於這個我個人認為說對於高風險的累犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9232.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9240.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我們可能要規劃提升行住的適用標準或者是參考指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9242.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9263.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那是不是我們可以研議說我們重複對於針對重複違反保護令或者是這個能夠強制並行這個保護管束我們有沒有這樣規劃就是針對這個重複重複違反保護令者我們能夠同時並行強制的這個保護管束可不可以我們有沒有這方面的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9264.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9287.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我想這個部分是可以再研議的那因為這個部分就是法規主管機關因為並不是司法因為大多數的案件我們都沒有沒有這個搭配保護管束也沒有包括緩刑的輔導這些都沒有所以這個累犯的風險這部分我們一直沒有辦法一直沒有辦法有效的遏止跟委員報告一下就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9294.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9315.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
違反那個保護令罪齁剛剛有講就是說他跟就是說實身的家庭暴力罪他不要那所以說其實如果說他是真的陳生違反這個保護令然後同時又去做這個暴力行為的時候我知道但是不對你在違反保護令本身就要給他科以因為我們法條就已經科以他三年以下有期徒刑是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9315.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9331.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
的刑度了但是事實上在良刑上面跟這個刑度有很大的落差到一年以上只有兩個人在四年來只有兩個人判到一年以上但是我們就是不是一定要發生家庭暴力之後我們才給他刑度這本身違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9333.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9350.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
違反這個保護令罪他本身就有他保護的法益這個法益我認為要提高這個對這個法益的保護的這個強度你才有辦法遏止後來之後發生真正加零暴力的這些案件嘛這個邏輯應該是這樣子的好那這個我們這個事辦院請回我最後針對這個我剛剛講有關於落實保護令的執行的部分我請衛福部請衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9359.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9381.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
因為這部分還是衛福部大概是最重要的主管機關這個市長我們這個監察院因為在113年有發生過這個在當街有母子在那邊罰跪的這個案件引起社會的高度關注那監察院在 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9382.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9384.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
在這個113年7月17號監察院有一個113設掉0011的調查報告齁這裡面有針對我們衛福部齁在執行這個保護令的這些東西提出一些一些這個這個問題啦齁那這個這個就是我我這個這個監察院調查報告市長這個之前有沒有了解這個這個這個調查報告監察院調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9409.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9418.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沒有的話我大概提示就是幾個重點第一個就是有關加害人的處遇計畫開案比率逐年下降從107年的5.8%到110年降到3.33%這個逐年下降這個問題我們衛福部應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9428.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9444.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
就他的原因齁以及他的這個進行資源盤點有關於這個這個省錢鑑定齁這個他的比例齁能不能明確的啟動標準跟資源的配置計畫提升儲育的實效性呢這部分是大概監察院報告的重點齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9446.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9469.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這部分我希望說你們能夠予以重視那等一下因為時間的關係我可能也沒有時間讓你回答我希望說你能夠用書面給答覆我另外一個很大的重點就是說有關於目前衛福部很多案件都以被害人失聯為結案的理由這個比例非常高被害人就失聯了連聯絡不到被害人就結案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9470.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9478.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那這個監察院的報告就直接指出說這蓮西衛國的案件齁占親密關係的這個暴力這個暴力案件齁在被通報率是65%的65%非常高 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9481.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9502.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以這部分是不是就顯示我們這個失聯的個案讓我們這些追蹤的機制都已經失靈了那這部分是不是請衛福部就這個家庭暴力被害人失聯案件進行全面的盤點提出一個具體改進的書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9503.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9510.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好的 非常感謝委員的指正 我們會後續提供給委員這個報告 謝謝謝謝陳委員 那下一個我們請羅志強委員發言有請法務部許次長委員長 次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9530.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9556.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們社會近年來其實一直發生很多讓人家心痛的家暴案件那當然最近最讓大家痛心的就是土城發生的這件案子一個有家暴前科的男子那違反保護令被捕 已經被捕了卻在檢方無保賜回後開車衝撞妻子跟小姨子那隨後當街砍死兩個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9558.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9570.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
其實這件事讓大家警醒到我們的保護令制度其實存在非常大的漏洞保護令的制度還有非常多要加強改進的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9571.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9588.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那有許多案件的共同點其實就是被害人都已經多次向政府求助可是相關機關在保護令的核發執行跟配套上卻沒有辦法及時有效介入那造成一些難以挽回的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9589.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9610.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以這一點真的要拜託我們法務部主管機關要面對問題提出具體改進的作為我想請問次長您有掌握到地檢署執行家庭暴力案件裁判確定情形逐年變化的情形就違反保護令罪的部分近年是惡化還是減緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9620.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9640.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
根據我們的統計資料的確從109年以來到113年案件數是有增加從1萬出頭到1萬7千件那我們起訴定罪率其實也都到94%以上定罪率也是非常的高所以案件量是有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9641.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9660.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那增加的當然它的原因很多像除了在法制面以外可能在社會的一些救助啦或者是輔導各方面還有家庭因素這個因素很多你剛剛講的是家暴案件的總數也是增加那是不是我講的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9661.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9676.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
執行所謂家庭暴力案件裁判確定情形就是違反保護令罪的這個部分也是增加那在110年的話是1758件到去年113年是2389件但今年的1到5月就是1034件所以看起來全年可能會接近2500件會比去年還多 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9688.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9703.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那對於違反保護令的人 你剛剛有講過定罪率目前大概是多少 定罪率違反保護令罪是97.1對 所以算是非常的高也穩定啦但是絕大部分的所謂的犯罪者都是怎麼判處的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9704.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9732.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
是 剛才看到司法院提出來的資料大概G1為多啦對 四分之三是判處G1跟罰金嘛那以113年來說的話是2405件的被告案件有1745人判處G1106件是罰金那你覺得像這樣的一個處分對於違反保護令的加害者有所謂的威嚇力嗎 會因此畏懼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9734.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9748.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我跟委員報告我想我們當然在我們的立場我們當然希望一定的刑度對於被告的才會有嚇阻的作用不過我們現在看到的大部分都是單純違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9751.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9766.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那個 家暴法的61條其實真正的判重罪應該同時半生的那些殺人 殺人威脅 重傷害等等或者是恐嚇這些重罪呢 會把它吃掉了所以看不出來其實有重罪的一部分在那裡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9767.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9792.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那單就違反61條就是大概我們看到的情形是這樣那在我們的立場當然是希望說要有一定的嚇阻作用不過這個是法官獨立審判的立場我們不方便評論這中間其實就形成一個矛盾點那我就拿土城這個案例來說的話那之前這位所謂的那個加害人他的家暴形態是什麼他的被判處理的狀況是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9793.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9822.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
他前面有一個是傷害罪不過他傷害罪還在偵查中就是五月的那個17號那一個案子為什麼講中間的矛盾點你剛剛在講就是說有些案件感覺是輕微或是怎麼樣但有些比較重的有處理啦就是比較伴隨一些嚴重的一些犯罪的話會有一些更重的一個判刑嘛對不對可是問題就在於說其實你像土城這個案子對不對他傷害還在偵查中但他下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9822.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9846.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
就立刻跳到是殺人而且是兩條人命第二個是違反保護令罪第二個檢察官當天受理的是違反保護令的內刑那現在就是說我們經過開會的結果如果有風險評估報告以及被害人願意提供給警察更多面向的資料我想我們的檢察官絕對是有這個警覺性跟敏感度 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9848.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9862.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
比較具體的東西給檢察官如果大家有這種期待希望把他記押起來讓被害人有機會可以處理一些事情的話這個要提供比較多的資料給檢察官做參考其實我覺得現在看到比較擔心的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9863.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9885.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
有些家暴常常都有累犯的狀態對不對有些家暴會有這個狀態然後出犯的被告大概平均刑度是1.5個月累犯被告的平均刑度是2.3個月那也是算是比較低的一個刑度然後另外就是說這些到底對於所謂的加害人的我剛剛講前面的威嚇力是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9886.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9911.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那就是一個最大的問題 其實說真的 社會上真的很多的一些我覺得被家暴的當事人 他們惶惶不可終日你像這個土城的案例 那個被害者其實他已經是被苦惱了很久 但是呢到最後也是申請家暴 也一樣保護你也沒辦法保護到他所以這是我覺得第一個要問的問題那另外我想請衛福部也上來一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9918.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9940.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們請次長我想請問因為今年是家庭暴力防治法滿27週年那你覺得我們現在目前成效如何報告委員有幾個部分第一個就是說我們通報數確實在成長那這個其實也顯示有關於家庭暴力防治因為過去是所謂法不入家門 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9941.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9966.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
現在目前經過這27年的一個努力其實我覺得現在目前社會各界對於這一個部分的敏感度它有增加所以它的通報數目也跟著增加這是第一點另外第二點我們現在目前也在各個社區我們有成立這一個所謂的防暴的這一個林暴力容忍的一個宣講師總共有514位的這一個宣講師那我們希望也能夠連結地方特別是這個民政這邊的村里這個里林長這邊來注意這個部分那其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9971.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9984.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
委員你也知道這裡面其實有通報義務包括整個學校還有醫院警察等等這些我們現在目前都做一個整個全面還有另外一個就是社安網這邊我在這邊也真的要非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有法官還有整個警政這邊我們的通力合作所以整個這個網在27年這樣下來我認為現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9995.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10022.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
就是說有相關的網的鋪設這一點我覺得算是一個成果我先這樣講 確實案件的通報數是大幅增加但是也可以看到我們現在好的方向是過去家醜不外揚的心態有點改變大家願意來去把困境對外求助 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10023.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10037.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
但是事實上你也可以看到從整個的案件的呈現的狀況來講其實也還是在趨於嚴重就是家暴案件還是趨於嚴重那這我也看到為何不說需要司法警察醫療社福一些教育體系的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10039.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10061.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
合作然後共同來幫助被害人遠離傷害那我再想問一下在土城這個案件發生之後我看到衛福部14號有召開跨部會會議間認定該案件從保護令的申請到核發其實程序都沒有問題是不是然後但是遺憾的是最後沒有得到這個檢察官的認可沒有申請羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10063.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10081.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
然後未來會對司法機關加強合作那遇到特殊狀況在申請羈押時來提供多一點有力的佐證這法務部的一個檢討的態度那我覺得請問一下法務部你認同衛福部的說法嗎那請問像這種東西怎麼去防止未來的類似悲劇 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10082.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10105.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
警察官遇到這個案件沒有羈押然後衛福部也講說會強化提供佐證資料那這個部分我想請法務部來講這個個案到底中間銜接出了什麼問題我想這個合作絕對是跨部會的那首先第一個就是要建立所謂剛才講到的就是家暴風險評估機制這個成立以後這個就是一個非常重要的佐證 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10106.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10135.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那今天才能夠讓檢察官有這個素材可以申請法院來同意羈押如果沒有這個東西的話我想要申請羈押是非常非常的困難那我們也會加強宣導跟教育訓練我們同時要讓檢察官有這個敏感度我想這樣子的多方的努力我想應該可以其實市長我覺得就這個悲劇它有一個蠻核心的問題就是說保護令核發後的執行力不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10136.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10161.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那造成法院合法保護令但執行院還是有非常多漏洞那造成今天這個防護的不夠來才造成所謂的被害者今天遇到這樣的一個不幸那許多的加害人是公然違反禁令那被害人多次報警那最後也只能等到法院的判決結果出爐但是那個時間差就是樣成悲劇的可能性就在那個時間差裡面發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10162.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10168.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那我倒是有一點就是說實際上警政署能不能請警政署上來一下我想問警政署有多少案件涉及加害人違反保護令但後來沒有被立即強制居體那地方警察機關是不是有存在不敢積極介入家庭糾紛的心態呢有這個問題存在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10190.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10207.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
以目前我們員警處理的經驗我們對家暴案件都很重視所以如果說是我們向檢察官申請具體那沒有成功那我們還是會注意他是不是有持續施暴的這個狀況我們不會去我問的第一個問題其實是數字性的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10209.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10226.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
就有多少案件就是加害者違反保護令然後有多少案件是他沒有被強制拘提就因為比例是多少他已經違反保護令但你也沒有強制拘提他這比例是多少我們目前查獲違反保護令的案件有百分比應該是大概16%是 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10229.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10256.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那我們逮捕現行犯的人數有也將近一半就是我們如果以114年來說我們違反保護令案件是4497件但逮捕現行犯的人數有2176人所以還是有一個落差嘛 對不對好 我想問一下 還有一個就是法令 法院可以命令被加害人佩戴電子腳鐐嘛 對不對可以嗎這個部分要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10258.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10282.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
抓暴的部分沒有 只有性侵害的部分才有只有性侵害的部分才有我覺得有些科技偵查手段可能也要稍微研究一下因為我看到過去有些科技偵查手段對於有一些犯罪的案件類型可能會產生一些防止案件所謂的一些悲劇發生的現象那我想這個部分可能要請我們相關單位再多加研議以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10285.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10308.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請李坤成委員發言謝謝主席那我們請這個司法院的副秘書長麻煩副秘然後法務部的次長 衛福部的次長兩位次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10315.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10342.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
今天我們談論這個主題那當然主要事發是主因是在7月7號吐沉這個不幸的事件那這件事情其實大家都知道那我現在想請問一下包括我們社法院法務部還有衛福部如果啦如果有機會阻止悲劇的話現在你們來想當時候在做哪些的一些程序哪些措施如果做下去的話有可能防止這個悲劇來發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10343.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10344.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們先請那個副秘書長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10348.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10376.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟委員那個報告就是有關於那個家暴那個防治呢他是一個全網絡的就是他連結各機關那就是說從一剛開始譬如說他合法保護令的時候他一定要有充分的那個資訊給那個法院所以呢就是說像那個警政機關他們那個家防官或者是說主管機關他們那個社工呢就是對於評估要很精準的去評估說這個個案他是不是屬於一個高風險的那個個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10377.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10392.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那也因此就是說它的這個其實現在都已經有相關的這些評估的量表了就是說這些要非常精準的把這個風險因子把它給抓出來那像譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10393.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10421.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
就這件來講咧當初是有哪些環節疏忽掉的在法院這部分我現在要連結講就是說像這一件進到法院來的時候呢事實上我們開庭所有的相關的措施就是保護措施什麼隔離這些也都做了那當時7月7號當天就是說被害人他離開的時候也有護送他社工有護送他坐計程車離開了那所以說其實在法院端這些該做的都做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10424.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10425.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那這是由誰來寫的? |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10440.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10451.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這是由那個家防官家防官來寫的那家防官是是比如說是這個被害人他的陳述嗎警政機關警政機關警政機關他來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10455.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10476.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那個受害者他的被害人他的陳述嗎那還是這一個警政機關他們怎麼樣去去做這件事情那市長要那個學市長要做個說明嗎還是警政署要做個說明這一個是警政署的警政署因為剛剛複密有提到這一塊因為我想說有哪些環節可以把它補起來的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10479.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10499.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我跟委員報告一下這個親密關係的這個危險評估表我們叫TIDA量表它有八項是要詢問被害人自己的感受那有五項是被害人自行陳述他是不是覺得有危險的狀況那它這個八項裡面呢都是很具體的譬如說對方是不是有曾經做出一些危險或動作傷害等等當初的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10500.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10508.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
在這個陳述裡面這個量表裡面所陳述出來的是很低的是很低的是很低的初期的時候是很低一直到7月2號因為他前幾天這個發生有這個槍隊人對他還有一些打電話騷擾他或者是有一些騷擾這個到他的工作場所去騷擾的動作他又重複再去報案的時候他自己的評估的這個危險程度就很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10528.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10551.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
所以那個時候我們就把他通報成是一個高風險的個案所以當時候有通報通報給 社政系統那法院或是說檢察官那邊知道這個情況嗎如果在這個通報的階段是還沒有進入到法院或者是檢察官因為他這個案子在初期五月份受理的時候那這個斷層就在這邊有出現了一個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10554.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10567.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
不是因為他這個案子初期的時候已經有申請保護令在等待審核對 我是說後來當這個受害人他說這個已經你們也認為說他是屬於高風險了但是呢在法院端或是說檢察官那邊還沒有得到這個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10571.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10592.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
超危機的個案就是進入社政系統的評估跟我們在保護令執行的對 只有到社政系統而已但是還沒有到法院端還沒有到檢討院那邊到法院端就是我們依照它違反保護令罪的狀況我們再調查對 我是說最新的啦最新的那個情況就是說剛開始被害人可能覺得說風險沒那麼高但是後來風險有提高了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10593.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10602.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那風險提高之後我要說的就是說除了社政單位知道之外然後在法院在檢察官那邊是哪時候那所以檢察官知道這個訊息嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10612.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10637.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
沒有 這個案子到7月7號我們才拿到相關的資料對啊 那所以就是斷層就是在這邊嘛我這樣問啦 就是說大家都在這邊嘛那斷層就在這邊 就是當受害人他已經覺得說這一個他的先生 這個謝姓男子已經對他造成一些高風險的一些 有可能一些傷害的可能性那但是呢 在法院或是在檢察官這邊沒有得到這個訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10638.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10650.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
他只有通報到社政系統所以我在想說這個當你們知道這個訊息之後你們要怎麼樣通報目前是這條線是沒有那還是說有但是你們沒有去做咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10652.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10676.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這個部分因為它涉及到地檢署的管轄不同土城分局的這個案子我們第一階段已經處理了但是後來到工作場所去騷擾的時候是台北市所以我們台北市是報台北市的檢察官指揮那是在7月2號所以這個部分我們有通報但是這個地檢署的管轄不同那所以說你有通報給台北地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10677.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10679.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以這樣問起來這個就是一個問題了啊就是說當你們知道說這個風險增加的時候但是在檢察官或是在法院這邊並不知道這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10691.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10715.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我這樣聽起來是這樣子嘛那我再請教一下徐次長那這件事情呢你們有做過檢討嗎有我想我們最主要是有兩點第一個就是我們就是剛才問的我們這些我們的網絡的人的夥伴一定要建立高風險評估機制我們各部會呢資訊要及時能夠串接以提供給檢察官這件事情來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10716.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10744.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
對就是事後檢討就是這樣就是說我們現在就是你們有這個狀況的話一定要趕快通報告把相關的資料每一次只要聯繫檢察官的時候一定要把所有的資料都附在裡面包括7月6號那一天有他毀損的時候你用違反保護令罪過來的時候你相關的評估報告跟所有的事證都要附在那一個案子裡就現在沒有那當時是沒有沒有沒有附所以你們也不知道不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10745.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10770.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好 那我請一下那個衛福部 我們市長那這件事情 因為你們前幾天也開過會嘛是 沒錯那對這件事情呢對 沒錯 確實就誠如剛剛許市長剛剛所說我們現在認為就是說確實這一整個我們當然是社政 可是裡面有包括警察還有包括這一 就是警察通人還有檢察官這邊剛剛說的整個資料串接啦這個部分我覺得是我們事後檢討我們認為應該要趕快來補齊的部分所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10775.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10793.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個斷層就發生了訊息之間彼此沒有流通啊對 沒錯就高風險的這一個通報啦通報的情況好 那我再請問一下現在就是說按照資料來講有這個發給保護令之後有八成的加害人沒有再有肢體的暴力但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10794.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10813.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
還是有兩成還是有兩成那這兩成的話你們要怎麼樣去做處理就是說能夠讓已經合法保護令之後我們還是希望說加害人的這些肢體暴力的行為能夠降到最低其實剛剛有提到就是說第61條其實我們現在目前是說三年以下其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10815.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10837.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
當天其實也有這一個 也有委員建議其實這個刑責 就是嚇阻的部分或許可以再來提高因為我們現在三年 可能提高到譬如說就是說一定的這一個年度不過這個當然是牽涉到整個修法的那個過程還有另外一個就是說就提到說這一個違反這個家暴法對 沒錯 它的整個是一個嚇阻的這一個那刑事訴訟法這方面咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10841.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10847.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個部分不是衛福部的權責 這個我們就尊重法務司法院這邊的一個權責那我再請問一下 災報法第31條有所謂的預防性的羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10857.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10872.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那我們預防性的羈押是不是大家覺得說因為沒有足夠的一些證據或是怎麼樣所以很少去用到這一條預防性羈押這部分我是不是請那個那個副秘書長或是徐市長你們都回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10875.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10888.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我跟委員報告 預防性羈押的話當然就是一個防止這個進一步的危害發生但是它有一個要件就要重複反覆實施的要件所以這個案子是沒有它 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10889.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10909.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
他的現存的資料是沒有這樣不符合但是關於這個31條預防性羈押你們使用這一條的機會大嗎因為我看說這個檢察官申請羈押混准大概100多件而已113年總共違反保護令罪是6048人那預防性羈押153人偏低啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10913.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10925.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這個有要件的我知道有要件不是說我意思是說是不是因為他的要件就像市長所講的要一個反覆實施要有危險有危險一個羈押還是很慎重的對啊 可是因為這個個案大家又開始要討論說這個所謂預防性羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10931.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10953.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
真的實施上這一條 雖然法有定但是好像實際上能夠用到這一條的機會不多所以我們就是要補那一塊所謂的反覆實施有立即為再犯罪的風險所以我們才會是說這一個高風險評估要隨著案件要進來檢察官才能夠判斷說是不是符合這個預防性羈押這個很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10953.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10968.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
好 那我最後再問 因為時間要到 主席站起來了那問一下副秘書長 我們加法保第31條這個我們有所謂的刑事保護令嘛那刑事保護令的這一個合法的比例是不是也是偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10969.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10996.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
不是說在這一件 因為他這一件 譬如說他問完之後發現說他沒有羈押的必要但是呢 至少我們可以包含31條的第一款到第五款都有一些條件可以要求我們的被告要去遵守那像這個案件也沒有嘛我的意思是說 我們是不是可以為了增加嚇阻力來提高刑事保護令合法的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10997.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11016.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那個報告委員齁 這個案件中他的那個羈押事實上他沒有向那個法院那個申請羈押所以說法院當然也無從就是會去下這些相關的這些那個保護令是那過去咧 就是說這個合法刑事保護令的比例咧好來來 那一個次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11022.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11042.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們在偵查中發這種刑事保護令目前大概是六成因為我看一下你們這個數字這應該是大概五成五成五到六成左右啦但是就是說這個預知的比率六成然後按照這個下面是哪些款項 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11044.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11060.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
比如說第一款到第五款啊大概的是有哪一些範圍通常是第二款一二款都有可能那個是比較立即的那個危險那我是希望啦就是說剛剛看也發生說有一些斷層 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11061.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11089.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那剛才就是說第31條這個預防性羈押的這部分我是希望說藉由這個個案我們再去討論你們怎麼樣把這個反覆實施然後具有這個傷害性這邊把它這個不論是更明確化一點點或是說看怎麼樣去做一個說明跟解釋讓這一條有實際上應用的一個機會啦我們會加強宣導跟訓練好 謝謝主席好 謝謝那我們依據先前宣告我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11410.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11422.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好我們繼續開會我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止那接下來我們請吳思堯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11434.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11438.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11453.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11477.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
這個不管是複密或是許次今天有我們的在野黨的委員剛剛在其他的委員會質詢語出驚人他說我們當然對於台電的理性員工他因為救災而大家全民為他集氣但是剛剛最一個好消息他慢慢的恢復心跳了所以全民一起為我們辛苦的台電人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11478.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11499.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
給他最高的祝福,希望他能夠挺過難關,能夠早日康復但是呢,非常遺憾在野黨的委員,剛剛在未還委員會語出驚人他說台灣葉克摩最厲害的是柯文哲醫師所以呢,不可以把柯文哲關著,要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11501.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11520.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
台電董事長去醫院幹嘛經濟部郭部長去醫院幹嘛要把柯文哲放出去去救台電員工才對我們需要一個正確的法治教育如果說醫生犯罪不能關因為他要救人 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11521.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11536.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那一樣立法委員犯罪不能關因為他要去選民服務有存在這種謬論嗎來我們法界代表推派一位等一下呂次長你可能也想要回應一下來看是徐次好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11539.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11567.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
你認同這種說法嗎我們需要給國人正確的法治教育跟委員報告我們尊重陳委員的發言任何人都可以講他想講的話但是因為他所提到的柯市長他現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中目前沒有辦法是不可能也不應該有法律的程序他是被告的嫌疑人來呃呂次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11569.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11587.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
科醫師現在可以出去執業嗎報告委員 這個我們也是如同市長剛剛說我覺得這個我們尊重陳委員的一個高見但是這個法有名文也有相關的規定那我們其實這法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11589.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11602.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們同樣的面對這樣的立委質詢我們要清楚的向國人法治教育否則呢今天可能網路上社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為我們依循法治國家任何的被害嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11604.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11626.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義但是循程序中他現在在演壓中而且也剛開完演壓廷我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害所以現在要救台電員工要把柯文哲放出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11626.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11641.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們也再次呼籲希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業的安全我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算來強化國家的電網韌性來強化優化人民的供電安全好 謝謝 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11642.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11665.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
今天質詢的主題呢我們針對當然土城的不幸事件讓我們通案來從個案來檢視通案的制度我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的槌尋他說違反保護令的裁判情形呢他恐怕是認為過輕啦因為拘役的七成三六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%但是整個定罪率是來到97%嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11671.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11683.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那我另外具體的統計了近十年2015到2024家暴案件執行家暴案件最終經過司法的程序去偵辦最終的有罪判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11685.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11704.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
有68.75%這十年來 居易是四成 六個月以下是16%當然也有無罪的 那也有相當高的比例 27%是不受理的因為可能有人撤銷 撤回 或是和解嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11705.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11721.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以說如果就這個數字來看可能會誤導了國人認為說即使有保護令的制度即使有違反保護令罪即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法大家投入來偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11723.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11749.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
但是我不希望因為家暴真的是清官很難去定家內事他還是要依循他犯罪的事實而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦每個case狀況不一樣而且我們要符合憲法23條的比例原則我們更要符合罪行相當的原則重罪不能輕放但小罪也不能重罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11751.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11774.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪行相當的原則所以我是希望說我們的案非常遺憾我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了犧牲寶貴的生命但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰重罰重罰就可以了事我的論點你們都同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11776.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11780.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好 下一頁你們三個都站得很遠耶那誰代表一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11781.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11808.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
來 呂氏你要說嗎我簡單有回應那個委員我們其實前幾天有開一個檢討重大案件檢討會議其實有委員也有提到就是說其實有時候你用這個重法你用這個重案比如說你該羈押當然要羈押可是如果不該羈押你違反比例原則其實反而會刺激到這一個整個加害者的情緒他以後就導入也許有人想要挽回家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11809.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11830.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
有很多面向要考慮 我稍後在政策面會讓您回應我們的主席也應該能夠理解所以我要說亂世用重點就對了嗎亂世用重點的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策也就是防止家暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11831.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11845.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我的看法 事前的防範防治絕對是重於事後的重罰所以事前的防範是什麼就要從制度下手尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議我們訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全的計畫而且呢 必須是跨系統的協作 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11856.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11881.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
也就是不是只有衛福部的事也不是只有社政機關的事更不是只有警察機關的事也不是推給司法機關就能了事所以民團的呼籲我相信你們都聽進去了高風險個案的個別化安全計畫的跨系統協作而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11883.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11891.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長衛福部常常被究責但是這是一個跨系統的協作所以說呢下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11895.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11916.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的幾個五大結論所以最重要的是不是就是你認為這其實對我長期關心的人來講我會覺得很多都是我們一再強調的只是執行要更落實你有沒有認為哪一項是我們新的指引要跟國人報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11918.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11942.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
報告委員非常感謝委員對於我們推動小組的關注我們這五個大重點裡面其實剛剛法務部徐市長他有特別談到未來在有關保護令的核發的部分其實我們一定要有一個警政這邊的資料還有我們社工這邊的資料一定要提供更詳實的一個information要不然其實老實說我們檢察官其實老實說也非常辛苦他們也不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11943.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11959.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
他們一定要看這個相關的這個Information所以這個是我們未來在這個部分一定要來強化的部分也就是說對於施暴者他的進一步的Data譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科他是不是有精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11959.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11973.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
相關的疾病他是不是有酗酒吸毒各方面會讓他更成為施以暴力在保護令的執行期間的那個危險因子嘛所以這需要跨系統的協作來 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11975.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11996.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好不用不用那就回到前一頁那我作為立法委員我過去在台北市議會我也分享一個我當時催生的一個機制可以讓我們的警政系統來協助我們今天內政部副署長也在因為我們知道我們在地方都會每一季都會開開地方的治安會議那治安會報呢我幾乎當議員的期間我都會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12001.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12029.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
治安會報就是包括我們的各地的分局譬如說我在北投分局的治安會報士林分局的治安會報然後會邀請我們所有的派出所的主管所長會邀請我們所有的里長我們地方的重要人士包括民意代表我當時就催生了一件事情也就是說在治安會報的時候來我們警政署的代表治安會報的時候其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的你知道哪些案類嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12031.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12035.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
就是刑事案件 重大刑事案件 哪些類 竊盜 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12037.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12050.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
重大的刑案像殺人案或者搶奪或者是像詐騙或是竊盜等等都有那家暴的部分如果家防中心一般來說也有參加所以有跟國會會談我想要副所長報告當時我當台北市議員十多年前我每一次參加治安會議我發現這是一個很好的機制每一次的治安會議你都被人家所以可以告訴大家我們的轄區內以北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12066.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12083.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
發生了幾起刑事案件傷害案件發生了幾起詐騙案詐騙案是現在新加入的data讓大家都能夠互相有警示當時我就要求把家暴案列進去因為立定的協防最知道說我們這區裡面可能有已經有家暴案發生的家庭或者是潛在的高風險的家庭唯有透過各地治安會議一計一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12096.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12105.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
所有的里长都在 领长也会参与的时候让他知道这一次 这一季我们北投区发生了几起家暴案 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12106.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12129.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
大家就會啟動了那個預警的機制大家就會互相的通報互相的協力因為連治安會議也會有地方的這個像我們的關渡醫院啦我們的地區醫院也都一起來參與那是一個很好的場域針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12131.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12148.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
在我那時候要求之後台北市開始啟動了把家暴案類成為每一季的治安會議的追蹤管考的項目而且要跟所有的社區參與者報告跟說明我不知道這樣的經驗在台灣有沒有被施行被複製還是您認為我們可以來推動還是已經上路了 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12151.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12179.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
因為台北是之後喔 郝龍斌的時候是我催生的時候 那時候有叫去趕走後面柯文哲之後就倒倒啊 沒叫去趕走我不知道說現在的狀況是什麼我認為這是一個全國可以來推動的委員這個提的部分是我們警察局都會在社區辦理這個社區治安座談會那有沒有列入交報案現在台北市有在實施那我們會通知其他的縣市也可以來交報你認為這樣是不是一個好的方式這就是社區協防 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12181.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12204.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
社區協防 讓社區了解他們這樣的狀況過去人家說不要介入人家家務室但是現在我們一起來當管家婆我們繼續來家務 為社區安寧為我們所有的家庭 大家好生活 大家安全大家做回來做管家婆 好不好所以我希望這是一個好的機制可以推行到全國 好不好大家加油 辛苦了 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12207.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12232.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
謝謝吳委員,那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席,我們請司法院王富密還有衛福部理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12242.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12254.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我剛剛在聽前面委員在答詢的時候我就在看你們衛福部跟司法院的報告那我特別看到我們司法院的報告跟衛福部的報告又不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12257.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12274.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
司法院的報告裡面就是法院核發的通常保護令的件數裡面113年這個地方應該是12457啦113年這個地方可是我是覺得很怪啦我們不是2023年就已經修法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12275.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12295.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那通常保護令呢 這樣的一個數字我認為會有一點誤導啦因為你本來修法完以後就通常保護還有這個暫時保護 還有緊急保護這個部分你反而沒有加進來啦所以你算出來這個部分是23.71可是我去比對啊 我們衛福部啊113年是19900 反而你就把它加進來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12300.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12327.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
你的數字就變成是 通常保齡令 核發 我相信你這個一萬九千九是包括暫時跟緊急 對不對兩個數字你們不一樣嘛 113年兩個數字你們就兜不起來了嘛兩個機關的數字就完全不一樣啦報告委員 我們衛福部這邊是參考司法院那邊所提供我們的數據是嘛 我意思是說你一百三年 你倆的事就沒講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12329.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12348.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
對不對 你說送到兩個機關113年怎麼 我一看 阿太 你在查多少可是呢衛福部這個地方喔你們真的算數也有問題啊你把2954你去把它除以那個母數19900除出來你怎麼會得到23.7又去抄司法院你計算機你馬上按18點多而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12360.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12380.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
跟委員報告 我們今天的報告全部都是載入在我們美季的推動小組裡面的資料而這個資料是司法院提供的公開的資料 以上說明不不不 我不跟你們講你們什麼公開資料 我在講說哪一個叫做正確第一 兩個機關數字不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12382.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12398.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
第二 你衛福部 你要仿照司法院可是你這個總數就跟他不一樣啦那你後面的裁定率反而又一樣怎麼會一樣呢2954 你們機關裡面有沒有人來除以19900 是多少絕對不可能等於23.7啦全部GDP雖然今天當機 可是我的計算機沒有當機啊我再算一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12411.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12425.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
送到我們這個資料兩個機關很明顯就不對2954除以19900你們自己也算一下看看你們14%而已啊14.8不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12431.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12442.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
不要開玩笑 你們的意思衛福部你的意思是說是司法院提供你們的資料那司法院如果提供你們的資料你怎麼會出現113年的時候你又跟司法院不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12443.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12469.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那我一問的之下呢司法院很明顯原始提供的113年的那個是法院所核發的通常保護令的件數一定是沒有加入暫時跟緊急嘛那你沒有加入的話我要問的就是說可是我們修法以後就已經有暫時這本來就有暫時跟緊急為什麼兩個又沒有列進去為什麼刻意把這個排除那排除我都會覺得啦我第一個想法就是說這要誤導這真的會誤導 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12472.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12500.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
會認為說 啊這個裁定率齁 那就比較關鍵部啊 受益就比較好看我擔心的是這個但是兩個機關之間 好不好以後數字不要這樣這很明顯 這機關之間的數字啊就完全不同然後衛務部你們自己也要打屁股的地方你們把那個數字 把人家抄過來你們也沒有時機去算母數 如果你要引用一萬九千九百的話那命相對人 完整加害人 廚藝的件數 既然是兩千九百五十四它就絕對不會是二十三點七 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12503.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12529.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
不要浪費我的時間啦我只是跟你們講說那個機關的數字不能這樣子啦那我想我今天最主要要來就教的就是說啊我們整個家庭暴力啊這個整個防治裡面啊我看跨部會裡面大家討論完以後也都得到一個結論就是說這個保護令要讓它有效那被害人你要及時獲得這個救援那加害人也要有效的去做一個處遇那當然保護令它真的不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12530.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12551.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
一個仙丹啦你說有合法的一個保護令就一定可以達成怎麼樣的一個效果法官也不是審法官有些案子發生了不幸的案件我們再往回推我們就覺得說當時如果你把它做一個更嚴厲的一個強制處分的話後面的事情都不會發生但重點是當初的市政都還沒有辦法讓法官達到這樣的一個新政啊所以這怎麼樣來你說不管是補破網也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12554.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12577.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那還是要怎麼樣的一個機制本席有幾個看法就是說你這保護令的一個核發裡面那類型大宗的包含強制遠離被害人居所學校跟工作場所跟其他經常的一個特定場所那我們去看我想負面應該很清楚就是說你去看國外保護令你要不要加電子的一個監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12578.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12598.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
加強執行力跟即時的一個反應你說看英國的話他們確實法院可以去透過對施暴者的保護令賦予必要的一個電子監控那你像在法國裡面他們也這幾年他們也對家暴家害人實施科技的一個監控 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12599.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12623.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
家暴的加害人接近受害者一定的一個距離你這個整個系統裡面就會發出警示給警方或者被害人有爭取反應的一個時間也證實了 也被證實有一定的嚇阻的一個效果但我不曉得就是說我們有沒有可能有沒有可能往這方面去做其他國家這樣的一個立法律去做你們有沒有去做研議請複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12626.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12653.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那個謝謝委員提供這個方向那那個司法院目前是沒有就這個演繹司法院因為也不是那個交報防治法那個主管機關那但是就目前那個刑訴修了之後呢有關於那個替代羈押的那個處分加上了這個電子監控目前成效實施的成效效果是非常好的所以說委員提出這個方向我覺得確實他的那個可行性是蠻高可以來加以演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12654.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12677.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我也不敢說到底一定要不要到這樣的一個強度啦我只是提出說國外的一個立法令讓我相信的那個最主要也是著眼於說對讓被害人有更強更堅強的一個後盾但是我有一個問題要來提出來的就是說我們在2023年修法以前你這個通常保護令都可以裁定加害者處以的一個計畫那修法以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12680.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12696.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
你就變成說縣市主管機關申請緊急跟暫時保護令也可以要求法院來裁定加害者的一個處遇可是你去看反而我會發現整個建樹裡面我怎麼去統計看完以後我反而會覺得說怎麼會變少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12698.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12717.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這就很怪啦 這就變成說你為什麼法院裁定加害人廚藝的件數會變少那你加害人 我們在2023年修法完你就本來就增加了這個整個主管機關也就可以去申請啦那為什麼 為什麼你去看數字來看的話反而那個加害人廚藝的件數會變少這什麼原因 我到現在想不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12721.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12732.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
有沒有辦法給我提供一個想法為什麼又增加地方機關可以了那你反而建樹會減少什麼原因啊 有人有辦法說明什麼原因嗎來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12739.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12764.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
謝謝委員的推詢我以上做一個報告那個112年12月6日修法增訂了那個交辦法16條第三項也就是說主管機關申請警保令跟戰保令他可以以他們的職權同時申請核發處議計劃令那但是我們統計的結果113年那11,088件的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12769.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12793.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這個件數裡面只有255件主管機關依這個新法來申請佔百分之2.3那麼到了今年1到5月齁只有4200次件裡面統計結果只有99件主管機關依這個新法來申請只有2.32.32那等於說這個申請量很低那麼要在警保 戰保 荷蛙 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12794.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12824.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
處理計畫是依照這個新法那個不是一直檢發通保令可以一直檢發但暫保令要發處理計畫是主管機關申請所以這個申請量很低所以才會有相關的一個互動因素但我們在那個通保令申請率低但至少還增加了一個機關他可以來申請我的意思就是說理論上新法通過以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12825.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12839.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個件數應該增加才對啊是 那下面一個數據是113那個依照16條第三項申請核發儲備計畫14件 戰保8件114 1到5月核發這個儲備計畫的戰保警保9件 戰保是10件這個是我們統計出來的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12848.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12864.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我看最主要問題可能不在這個地方啦我相信複密可能也會很清楚啦其實這可能會涉及到任何官員尤其是法官在職教育訓練的問題法官真的不是萬能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12865.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12888.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
你像譬如說啊 家暴這一件你說法官會比我們第一線的 社政這些人員他們的對於整個 如何去做處理 會更了解嗎我都很懷疑 我去看啊這司法案所提供的書面報告裡面 你看那個第十到第十頁大部分都比較指導的一個心態但實際上在第一線社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12889.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12902.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
警政這個恐怕他們更理解整個實際上的一個處遇我今天提出來的意思就是說我希望說我們這個衛福部因為你這個定義你算執行機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12904.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12928.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我今天提出來我只能從法院端司法端的這些概念或者數字來跟大家比較表面性的一個探討因為資料是你們提供的但我都覺得這個問題必須要衛福部跟司法院跟法院端這邊密切去做合作並釐清強制的一個處理相關的一個作為要不然 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12930.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12952.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我們這2023年通過 你看今天報告裡面我是覺得講得很好啊這個司法院裡面的開宗明義就講保護令它不是萬能啊 雖然是點上一個問號而已啊那確實它絕對不是一個萬能啊尤其是大家都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12955.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12959.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
加萊斯 法官有時候也比較不喜歡猜這個有時候 雙方當事人來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12961.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12986.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
有時候都比較情緒性法官你也很難去在有比較充分的一個證據之下去做出很隕蕩的一個裁定那這個東西沒有第一線的社政跟警政的人光靠法官不夠法官有時候大家覺得有時候在第一線的人反而是最關鍵的可是真正到最後做決定的又是法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12987.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13003.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
一定是這樣啊所以我反而會覺得啦這個部分真的是必須要再想一下你只說好像都是用指導的一個心態這樣去看我反而覺得法官在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13004.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13031.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
有必須要 必須要他整個專業上或者職場上的一個在職的一個訓練必須要去加強 法官沒那麼厲害 尤其是處理人家剛才就比較年輕的面面 大家學的幾乎都是法律啊學的是法律啊 但是整個像這一種的相關的一個處遇啊其實我倒覺得有點擔心啦我希望我們衛福部這個地方啊看要怎麼樣 因為你們在地上嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13032.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13053.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
法官是卡站在法律面嘛那實際上他的認知跟他的接觸法官也沒有那個時間啦也沒有那個時間啦那幾乎比較把關情的那你說對他說你送去上市局的資料那實際的情況是怎麼樣他未必會全貌會清楚啊好不好我告訴你啊 府民你簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13055.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13083.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
沒有貶低的意思啦但是問題我就覺得說法官真的沒那麼厲害啦你沒動作法官那麼厲害你像我常常看你們那個裁定啊除非有重大案件啊不然把台灣碼複製貼上來差不多都是這樣就覺得這樣就會告大家嘛事實上也不用過度著墨太多啊所以就簡單的就出去了啊除非社會重大矚目然後就開始勾結一些事實寫得很漂亮大部分都是如此嘛這個我們不用去諱言嘛但是涉及到相關主義的部分可能就不應該如此處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13085.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13104.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
非常感謝委員指導我們的方向也是這樣子認為因為家暴防治它是一個網路的合作所以法院所做的判斷都要靠第一線就是他們所提供的資料譬如說像是這種評估量表它可以很精準地反映出加害人危險因子 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13107.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13133.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
或者說他是不是以前有再犯啊就是有要飲酒飲就是這一些那個高的這一些那個風險他能夠就是具體那個提出來那法院他才有素材可以去做一個正確的一個裁定那第二個就是委員所那個指導的正式就是我們這邊也一直強調說我們要對於就是說辦理這個案件的法官還有那個司法事務官呢就是加強這個教育訓練讓他們有這個敏感度 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13136.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13150.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
當然,我的結論就是說,我們的家庭暴力防治法,我們在1998年去立法通過,那可是亞洲第一部以保護被害人為核心的一個家暴的一個防治的一個專法。家暴事件現在,以前的觀念叫做家務事,就是整個社會的一個事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13156.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13176.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那你只要說對家暴家害人的一個制度性的輔導的處理方法設計得當的話你更有機會去回應法律跟社會一個規範進而去家害人降低再犯的一個風險啦所以兩個機關拜託 再加一點 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝莊委員 那下一位我們請陳培宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13200.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13201.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13213.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13229.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
好 兩位午安那我想今天非常多委員都關注相關的比例跟數字我們就直接切入重點其實所有的問政跟包含主席兼排這個專報我們都是希望憾事不要再發生所以如果我們來看一些比較細緻的東西我們就來往這裡去想 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13230.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13253.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
如何做 做哪些事情然後哪些事我們漏掉導致憾事一再的發生那我們今天也許就有機會來討論了我知道你們其實很快因應這個土城的事件你們立刻召開了跨部會的會議我想這個動作非常的快那我現在想要知道一下因為還沒有看到會議記錄可不可以簡單的說明一下我們只有看到新聞稿目前是說有五個決議包含第一個強化第一線專業人員的教育訓練還有嚴寧跨峽通報跟應變機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13258.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13277.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
盤點刑事程序的銜接處理針對雙向加害或被害案件的提出新指引還有最後提供完整的心理輔導跟支持這是目前在新聞稿看見的可不可以讓你們簡單補充說明一下後續在這件事情上如何跟第一線的工作人員可以做對接可以希望憾事不再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13278.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13307.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
非常感謝委員對於我們這一個五大決議的一個關心那我剛剛也有在回應其他委員的時候我特別談到這五點裡面我個人因為我當天也是主席我認為這裡面這一次如果以後要避免其實最重要事實上就是以這個保護令為主它的整個核發還有整個積壓的一個情況的時候我們要提供就是左邊就是警政的這個同仁還有右邊的就是這個社工同仁必須要提出必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13308.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13332.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
的一些相關的這個訊息讓這一個檢察官還有讓法官他在裁定整個這一個所謂保護令的時候有必要的necessary information那這裡面的必要的這個訊息包括幾個部分第一個事件發生頻率第二個家庭背景的這一個陳述還有第三個剛剛所說的情節輕重第四個就是剛剛我想那個司法院副秘書長有特別提到我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13336.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13349.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
這個整個高風險的這個量表TVDA的這個量表那我想這一些其實基本上都應該第一時間趕快競速而且完整的提供給這一個檢察官來做相關的這一個整個這個判斷好 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13351.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13373.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
如果你要談到保護令我們等一下確實會談到這個部分當然我們看到第一線還有包含你們跨部會的會議結論如果根據剛剛次長你所說的事件然後背景然後情節輕重高風險良表這些東西可以透過警政跟社工的努力快速叫個檢察官做出後續的判斷那我們來看一下因為過去當然有一些憾事這些憾事我們認為他們呈現了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13376.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13401.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
現在我們所看見不同的缺漏我們來一一檢視一下這些缺漏有沒有可能在你剛剛說的那些措施當中去補足回來第一個基隆五歲小孩被爸爸把枕頭悶殺可是其實當時母親已經有提出這個保護令的申請可是他其實遇到的是保護令的空窗期因為新的事件我想我就不再多說還有相關人員的知能跟敏感度甚至我都會說這個相關人員其實還包含這個孩子的媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13402.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13425.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
因為媽媽在通報的時候其實沒有通報說孩子有受虐跟受到家暴的情況所以這裡的相關人員我甚至還想提到的是被害人本身他們意識到他的孩子也需要求助第二個是化室的槍殺案這個女子她拒絕保護令所以我們認為這裡的問題可能潛在的問題是其實資源有到位了大家也都知道要投入 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13425.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13453.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
可是當事人拒絕的時候國家有沒有什麼樣的角度跟可能性我們想要積極協助他的時候我們可以怎麼做第三個新聞是才剛撤銷保護令就被前男友砍殺這個內湖的案子我們看見他潛在的問題是保護令失效或者是撤回後的人身安全行為人處遇跟輔導機制我認為這題就相對複雜囉包含保護令失效撤回後人身安全還有行為人處遇跟輔導機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13455.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13468.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
剛剛莊委員也提到輔導人行為人處遇的事情最後一個新聞是國民法官審新北沙夫案幾乎被判刑七年兩個月他長期被行為人制約早上王逸傳委員又提到這些事情也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13469.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13489.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我們不要看個案我們來看通案全面的盤點新聞背後所看見的潛在問題回應到您剛剛說的五大會議結論跟後續的相關配套你認為我們有沒有機會把這一塊慢慢補起來當然今天時間有限那我就先提出我們辦公室研究跟觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13490.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13509.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
可是確實我們是希望你們的跨部會會議跟後續的政策推動跟你剛剛說的所有配套可以未來再看到類似事情或是避免類似事情發生的時候這些潛在的問題可以獲得解決當然我知道都還要再努力但我們來看一個其實這個我也很想跟您討論是 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13511.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13527.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個統計數字是來自行政院的網站統計資料我不確定你有沒有看過不過沒關係我跟你說第一個這個數字可以看到的是家暴的通報數量連年上升而各式各樣家暴的原因也都持續上升其中親密關係佔了五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13529.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13556.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我在跟我的同仁讨论的时候我认为有一个很重要的原因是大家的意识提升了所以我们就通报但也有可能这是其中一个原因第二个原因是双向都有通报就是加害人跟被害人在一个有争执的情况下都会通报我们做过研究你们一直点头但对我们想要是对的所以我不知道你们为何不怎么看这个数字当然我们有我们的解读我也想听听看次长您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13557.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13574.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
陳如剛委員所說我們從1998年通過之後27年其實大家的整個這個家庭就是整個這個防暴意識提升我也要跟委員報告就是說另外一方面我們保護師其實在各個社區我們都有推那個所謂的防暴社區的這個觀念然後來訓練這一個防暴師來做這個廣為宣講那其實剛剛陳如剛委員所說的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13580.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13593.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
上升了其實另外一個確實還有一個所謂互惠通報的這一個部分就以這次土城的這個案件為例其實事實上他自己本身他甚至他自己他也申請這個所謂保護力是這個所以我剛說的雙向通報的問題沒錯我剛很開心聽到您說防暴師因為我確實認識好幾位防暴師講師 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13599.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13617.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
確實他們告訴我們第一線的狀況是有講了之後真的還蠻多人就意識到說原來這個情況是屬於加報的內容所以可能通報上升這個時候問題就來了要問的是那第一線社工現在你們的盤點我其實懷疑會不會嚴重人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13618.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13628.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
報告委員 確實啦 因為通報案件上升我們按照規定 承認保護的話應該是1比30兒童保護的話應該1比25現在目前確實都有社工案量過多但是我們找不到這麼多社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13642.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13667.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
所以我們現在目前在社安網第二期2.0的部分我們現在就是要來也跟行政院這邊報上去就是說我們現在要趕快來補足這部分的這個人力的這個gap那當然也就是說社工這個各學校那個社工的整個這一個教育的部分我們也要趕快來做相關的這個培訓工作好我很樂意我很開心聽到你剛剛說的你們已經跟行政院討論在社安網2.0但是我可以確定一下因為我聽這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13668.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13687.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
你們大概預計什麼時候可以逐步跟上這個數字1比30或者是1比25你們的規劃沒關係還是可以讓市長來回覆謝謝謝謝委員關心其實處理交報案件這麼大量的通報其實我們更要精準的把人力用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13688.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13698.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
該做對的事情上面所以我們的分級分流的部分做了一些處理那包括用替打量表來這個評估或者是我們先做評估篩選出高危機案件然後把人力用在這個上頭那另外我們也結合民間團體我們一共每年有37個民間團體幫我們做這個親密關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13711.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13737.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
風險低的中低度但是有意願有需要服務的案件我們有37個團體在幫政府在後端協助這些婦女讓他們能夠脫離暴力所以單純看1比30我覺得是可能還可以再看資源的這個部件以及這個案件的分流處理這樣的一個機制可能更有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13737.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13757.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13757.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13786.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
只是說我們如何真的可以把人補到位而且補到位之後因為前一陣子還有一個文章說其實社安網前一個版本的困境是社工變很多了資源好像也到位可是好像彼此就固著在自己的工作崗位上彼此之間的合作可能就少了一些過往的經驗那我相信也許在未來社安網2.0的版本當中社工跟社工之間在服務同一個案子的過程當中如何緊密的接軌互助合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13786.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13804.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我認為不會只有在兒少案件當然因為我在胃環每次都為你們兒少可是今天在這邊我們問的是我是家暴案件剛剛司長你說的我都認同但後續的接軌我知道也不要只追求人力我們一起努力好不好我再補充一下好 跟你補充主席都是他一直說喔這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13805.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13819.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我們現在要分級分流這個高風險我們現在目前用TIVA量表大概測出來大概10%所以我們會把我們的這個社工主力會放置重兵在這一個所謂的10%的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13820.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13837.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
這樣我就要幫社工多爭取如果是高風險我相信社工的工作量跟心理負擔其實也很大我們後續也要積極協助這些第一線的社工心理素質不要只有風險加急啦市長我們在協助他們心理整備那個素質的時候也要給予協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13840.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13856.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這個我們後續再跟你們討論 接下來看司法院統計關於家暴通報還有保護令事件 一樣是持續攀升那這是司法院的資料 申請保護令的案件我們來看一下 第一個司法院現在一年有三萬多件的申請案 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13857.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13880.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那原因我們剛剛已經都說了嘛但是我其實擔心的是那第一線的法官他們過勞的情況其實不是只有在家暴案件工作量這麼大我們之前在屢次的質詢當中我們都不斷不斷的說現在我想知道不知道你手上有沒有資料平均一個庭或者是一個法官在相關保護令要扛多少如果以每一個庭或者是法官來算 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13881.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13898.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
沒關係 沒有嘛沒有算這個平均但是我說的一年三萬多件是對的嘛對好 但這個數字我相信你們應該有來自第一線的回饋跟聲音體感上可不可以告訴我們他們的工作量質感上應該是壓力很大然後案件也很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13903.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13924.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
讓我們知道實際的狀況我去年從士林地院過來那我在士林地院我們是六個法官加一個庭堂辦四分之一股所以大概是6.25股的能力那我們一年的通常保護令案件我離開的那一年112年年底我沒有記錯應該是1300件就光通常保護令所以我們一個法官大概一個月要收 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13928.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13948.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
六點二五一千三嘛所以一個法官一年收兩百件左右然後你看他上半天也大概就兩百多天都還沒有算他加班的時間然後一個月大概他還有其他我當時在市林地院的家事庭整個總總案量一個法官是八十件左右一個月一個月其實算多對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13950.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13970.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
過多超多很多很多你很客氣我都已經幫你說超多了啦其實是超多我要講的是第一線的這個量所以我相信這邊可不可以請司法院再回覆一下副秘書長你們有沒有打算在這個事情上做什麼樣的調整員額的部分或者是人力的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13972.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13986.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
謝謝委員關心這個事情因為司法院 各法院人力負擔非常非常沉重我們總原額法全國是一萬五千人這個數字馬上就已經要報表了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13989.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14012.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
所以說我們的那個法官必須是在三年前的時候就開始要算就是今年的考試是三年之後那個到位那我們現在就是說也陷入一個那個困境因為就是加一個那個法官的話其他還有書記官跟法助還有其他像其他的這些那個輔助人立法警什麼的那你們全部算在這15000是是是而且是全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14014.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14038.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
對那所以就是說你要加那個法官的話才能夠承受這些那個案件可是加了法官會不會就排擠其他的工作人員正當我們今天要上台質詢的時候我們還看到一個臉書專頁叫靠北法官助理我沒有在罵你髒話我說那個臉書專頁叫靠北法官助理是他們就有在說你們最近是不是有個會議要把約聘改成冤用是不是因為元額的問題是這個可以後續再說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14039.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14054.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
但是我今天這題就是要我不知道我們可以怎麼解決我們可不可以有機會回過頭來討論腫原額的問題你們自己這邊的傾向我們當然可以回過頭再跟人種討論但我想知道你們自己在第一線希望反映給人種的聲音會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14055.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14075.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
是 這也是司法院的政策那我們現在正在就是說很精準的就是做這個人力評估啊也有委託就是外面的這些學校那個教授來進到那個司法院就是精準的去幫我們看我們這些人力的那個評估到底還需要增加那個多少人然後有這些客觀那個數據去爭取大概多久要算出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14076.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14104.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我們基本的資料都已經有現在會診資料我們希望可以立刻就是去爭取好 支持 拜託去爭取因為光是靠北助理法官那個事情都已經在講法官助理的部分了那更何況還有法官還有剛剛來自第一線的同仁的聲音衛福部先請回 不好意思 謝謝所以司法院這邊稍等我一下好 所以我希望這個數字可以很快出來你剛剛說你們已經找專家學者做了研究我們辦公室可以跟你們要這個資料嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14106.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14133.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
還是你們可以讓我們大概知道一下你們的計算跟你們希望跟人總討論的部分嗎這我們會去彙整對好不好好謝謝好接下來那我們來看一下如果是這個案子你看人這麼多都還不要談通保戰保還有緊急保護令各自的一些狀況可是如果我們把人事的部分解決我們現在來看我現在想問的是第一個保護令常常被詬病的時間就是因為日期太長那我認為人力不足絕對是一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14134.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14150.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
那你剛剛說已經你們要希望增加人力所以這個我已經聽到答案了那可是第二個暫時保護令當時我們設立的目的是希望保護遭受家庭暴力的被害人那有一個所謂暫時性的措施這個緊急性的臨時保護措施可是目前我們現在算了這個時間給我們的數字是22天我很想知道這個22天是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14157.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14184.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
就是這個程序為什麼需要這麼久還是他其實還是卡在人力的問題戰保的部分戰保的部分現在平均值是22天沒關係讓後面的同仁回答沒有關係好謝謝委員我是中中委員廳長是這一部分是這樣根據加辦法的規定這個鑽石保護令它是得因為市政不足得開庭審理是 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14184.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14209.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那當我們的受理這個案子的時候一審查就會通知當事人補一些資料但是遲遲未補所以就會定期所以因為有定期所以產生他這個就是所謂市民啊優勢證據的資料不夠才會拖到二十幾天一般的通常都在七到十天你說暫保的部分暫保的部分平均是七到九暫保七到十天不開庭就發出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14210.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14214.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以我們22天的數字之所以會這樣是包括開庭的全部把它結案的可是戰保不需要開庭不是嗎它是寫得開庭所以我們去調資料的時候就是一直沒有補進來所以不足以市民有危險性的高度所以剛剛衛福部才會說資料要趕快進來最剛開始的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14232.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14254.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那我想後續確實需要衛福部協助司法院這邊好來謝謝那緊急保護令通常是法規規定是一天以內對不對24小時那4小時然後現在我們一年大概100多件對不對對好那我很好奇喔如果中間我們遇到空窗期該怎麼辦我剛剛說了戰保這個空窗期還沒發戰保對對對對對我現在說是還沒發戰保的空窗期我們有沒有什麼因應或者是保護的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14263.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14285.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
請說 請說委員好 我做一個報告齁如果緊急保護令的話不論何時我們承辦的法官一定法上四小時要發那現在是戰保有些直接就申請進來那有些是申請通保依規定我們看到那個量表那個危險量表跟這個人格性格有暴力我們是依職權發戰保 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14287.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14299.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
就是通報 依職權先發先依職權發這個戰報這個是法有明文所以法官的訓練在這個地方很重要但是資料如果我們可以彙整就是說網絡可以彙整立即就會取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14303.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14322.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
實務上的做法我聽懂了但是你剛剛說沒有空窗期真的嗎不會有任何一個案件有空窗期嗎我所謂的空窗期就是指在發出這個保護令之前就算它是戰保發出保護令之前還是你們認為相關案件它原本如果是申請戰保但是你們認為事態緊急你們其實會自行改成緊急保護令是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14323.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14348.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
所以就不會有空窗期不是因為緊急保護令只有機關可以申請是那暫時保護令當事人跟機關都可以申請對那現在剛剛的空窗期會有是在通保通保在進行中如果我們收集到的危險資料不夠所以法官就沒有依之前核發馬上介入的保護叫暫保沒有發暫保這個就空窗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14349.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14372.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
對 那怎麼辦嘛 我現在就問你怎麼辦我們有設計了三種 三套給全國家事法官來進行第一個就是立即連結這個駐法院的家暴服務處的社工立即去啟動這個做一個安全計畫給法官就是有哪些危險性好 所以是第一個對 第一個第二個就是我們知道很多兒童都目睹 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14373.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14390.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那目睹暴力的時候因為他這個發的戰保有禁止接觸那就沒有辦法看到小孩所以我們會立即發函給那個個管社工就是加防中心的請他提出迅速提出三到五天提出一個最快的訪視跟監督室會面計畫來保護兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14394.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14421.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那第三個就是說如果風險裡面他是藥物亂用人格異常等等那我們會立即啟動這個主動來做進行這個所謂的處理計畫鑑定同時呢處理計畫鑑定的同時也發函依法律規定給加防官就是我們分局裡面有加防官請他安排這個這個所謂轄區派出所的巡邏跟這個安全維護當然第一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14423.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14451.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
所謂做交報輔助做了安全計畫裡面可能就已經有啟動跟各館社工去所謂的庇護跟這個安全離開庇護保密這個措手以上好 謝謝你回答這麼仔細我其實就是要聽你講這個因為我認為剛剛空窗期的部分一定有你們已經知道的你們已經注意到所以你們做了一些預防措施但是現在社會大眾可能不理解因為一定還是會有一些少數個案出現那個所謂空窗期那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14451.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14471.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
在您剛剛報告三個做法當中我們後續再來跟你們討論還有哪些可能性是我們之後再透過法規範或是相關措施來補上我們今天就不再用這邊的時間但您剛剛回覆我那三個樣態聽起來可能是一般人之前還不知道但現在我們讓大家知道後續還沒有的我們再補上最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14472.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14495.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
當事人通報意願其實也是我剛剛有提到的部分那因為法不入家門家醜不外揚這樣的概念我們看到相關數字是家暴當事人平均要4.2年才願意通報我認為你們一定有做相關的宣導剛剛說有防暴時的部分我當然希望後續可以持續加強因為我時間有限我就不再多說另外一個其實我還是要提醒你們加害人處 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14496.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14517.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
的部分因為剛剛周瑞雄也說相關數字的比例其實是不合理的那加害人廚藥我認為應該衛福部會知道要花一些力氣再去調整進行相關資源的調整還有相關宣導這個部分可不可以讓衛福部回應一下因為確實最近國人覺得很擔心土城那個事情其實是加害人的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14519.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14533.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我們現在確實就是說陳副委員剛剛所說這裡面有相對人還有被害人的部分那這兩部分我們都必須要作為相關的處理計畫那其實以這個土城這個案例其實他們其實他等於搬 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14534.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14559.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這一個搬到屏東的時候 屏東社會處還有社工去做那這裡面我們未來也會請我們保護性社工這邊相關的處遇計畫 必須我們的整個教育訓練我們會來應該要來強化應該加害人處遇計畫我們還有努力的空間 簡單說就是這樣 好不好還有另外一個我也跟各位回報就是說其實另外一個最重要還是里長林長這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14563.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14586.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
這個部分但是我們就要協助里長跟里長增加相關的知能還有協助他們的資源配套不然等到他開始有意識他開始有意識然後他開始很雞婆而且雞婆是好心的他開始好心的去做這些事情的時候他可能也會開始感到無助因為後續的資源要減少這個部分我們就一起努力最後一個庇護所因為現在多處偏遠地帶我們如何改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14588.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14601.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
會因為就降低大家入住的意願我們如何保護被害人人身安全這個部分我們現在目前其實跟這一個社會住宅這邊我們也會來合作譬如說像林口林口社宅那邊就有一個相關計畫再給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14602.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14626.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
好 謝謝最後我的結論講得很清楚主席我要結論 我的結論就是這些我剛剛所有問的問題你們都回答已經有做到了跟還要努力的我們就繼續努力相關資料我們辦公室會再跟你們出所資就是人力的部分 申請保護令還有加爆防護措施三個月內好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席非常感謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝沒事對對對好 謝謝我們下一位請林悅請委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14646.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14652.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
主席麻煩有請我們的法務部徐次長跟內政部廖副署長還有衛福部的呂次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14661.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14680.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
委員好三位午安我相信今天司法法治委員會不會排這個主題因為我們7月7號發生了這樣的一個重大事件那這不是第一起啦過去實際上拿到保護令到底有對於受害人到底有沒有實質意義過去也曾經跑到人家家裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14681.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14698.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
把人家全家 娘家人全家殺了所以保護令明明就已經合法了卻如果沒有搭配人身安全的一個計畫的話也沒有及時監控我們加害人的行蹤的話實際上這就是一張紙那這張紙到底有沒有什麼用意只有對於守法的人才會有用 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14699.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14726.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
固定上 那法律上有 可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在 實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提 像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14727.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14741.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
當然沒有辦法及時介入 加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄 可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提 沒有電子 交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14742.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14761.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那這是一個很大的問題 就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略 風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的 我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14765.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14774.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這就這些實際上如果沒有看到這些機制被落實的話那今天這個案子如果講保護令的話根本就是一個空殼所以想問我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14779.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14801.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
廖副署長這邊想問就是說為什麼土城分局到底事實上是警員的訓練不夠呢還是怎麼樣怎麼會既然他已經多次有威脅又有一些前面的一些狀況那為什麼會資料提供的這麼的少通報內容又很簡略當時這個保護令合法在執行的時候確實他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14804.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14833.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的這個狀況那但是他們在執行的時候是因為雙方沒有碰面就是他雙方是做隔離然後而且被害人他們都雙方都沒有接觸到被害人也跟你們陳述他碰到一些狀況為什麼資料提供的會是這麼簡略在當時違反保護令罪逮捕的時候那個被害人的對對方面的這個陳述還沒有很很很完整所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14833.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14852.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
在這個歷次的施暴紀錄的部分這個我們以後會再加強訓練 嚴謹這方面的敏感度因為你這邊前面不夠多就引發了後端所以要問徐暢這邊就是說今天同樣的值班的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14853.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14858.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
他也算是我們覺得某種程度上事實上是漏接所以想問一下市長這邊說你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14864.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14891.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
我想我們已經開過協調會議那我們就希望說高風險的評估報告一定要隨著券進來甚至於有其他的一些事證也要跟著進來要增加一些素材讓檢察官在判斷是不是申請羈押的時候有所評據那也可以來說服法官來裁定羈押那這是一部分就是說把當時的加害人想要限制他的行動自由那這個是有效的可以防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14891.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14911.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
因為你的資訊不夠當然是判斷就會死準所以現在問題是出在那裡我們內請檢察官手上沒有這些資料所以為什麼我會提出特別提出這樣子因為我們自己在看到到底因為我剛剛看你們的我之前看你們的報告說有訓練像如果員警有訓練的話或者是在講說檢察官有訓練那我們就想問說負責的檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14919.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14933.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
值班的他不是富有保護的專責人員那他到底受過什麼訓練像你們提的這些訓練裡面110年的確有邀請說什麼性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理好這110年 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14935.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14951.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
辦的訓練我知道如果這很重要112年有沒有辦112年有沒有辦就你112年又是換另外一個是重大兒女的經驗分享偵辦經驗分享112年變成是人口販運的防治法就想問說所有的這些檢察官都有受過 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14952.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14973.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這樣的特別訓練如果不行的話照理來講應該有專責人員來做處理嘛所以我想問說當天值班的警察官他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足所以才會資料不齊全然後呢又缺乏一個專業的視角所以一直錯失了這樣子一個可以挽回的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14974.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14992.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
報告委員我們不斷地會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練那委員你剛才提到一個問題就是內情因為我們的婦幼值班是有專族來值班那個婦幼案件那是大部分都是性侵害案件不列同案那我們有特別的一個專責 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14993.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15009.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
可是這些人力不可能就是變成內勤因為內勤的話等於是每天都要有包括過年都要有人值班那有時候他因為維護保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接不是附幼的專屬承接所以會變成每個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15011.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15029.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
對 如果每個人都要的話那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性專業我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷不是在於說檢察官到底他有沒有這一個敏感度而是我手上就是沒有資料這樣子的話檢察官誰來都一樣副業主來也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15029.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15057.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是還是建議你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15058.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15070.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化如果看你們這樣子的一個脈絡我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的畢竟婦幼 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15071.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15087.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15088.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15107.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們應該講當講師因為你可能換是主管機關你會是最了解這一方面的有曾經有提供嗎另外一個是我對受害人的保護的這個你的策略會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15108.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15130.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
跟委員報告 其實我們都有一些相關的一個整個教育訓練跟宣導 也有跟我們的司法院還有跟法務部這邊共同合作另外一個就是說 其實我們在整個這個重大家暴的案件 我們也有一個整個處理機制就是重大的會議 我們在上面會對像我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15132.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15160.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
前天就是針對這個土城案子我們來來做相關的一個教育的一個了解那另外一個部分是剛剛委員剛剛有特別關心的就是對於整個加害人還有這一個還有這一個受害者他們的整個相關的處遇計畫那這邊我們我承認就是這裡面整個一些未來我們的整個對於社工同仁這邊的一些相關的整個這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15161.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15168.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
對 因為受害者還是事實上是你們的職責所在是是是 沒錯我們這邊的一個整個教育訓練我們應該也要來再進一步再來深化強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15169.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15196.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
所以就來問次長這邊問題三就是角色很模糊又沒有制度又沒有指引都很難去做為什麼加害人一度事實上是反控自己是被害人的是沒錯那導致系統面臨如果互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制沒有辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者所以針對這樣狀況一個想問次長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15199.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15201.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
進行法律規定並沒有說誰才能夠這個申請這個通報所以目前的互為通報的確是一個變成常態但是我們也知道應該看到回到那個案件的本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15229.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15257.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
家庭暴力特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼那將來我們在指引上面會很清楚的讓第一線社工人員知道那接下來到底這種案件要誰為主誰為輔到底資源要怎麼樣配置我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭可能要快因為食物界也跟我反映說沒有這個指引的話有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的那就要問市長什麼時候因為今天這個不是我剛剛講過不是第一期 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15258.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15283.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那互違這種告對方的應該也蠻多的那我不知道你們指引什麼時候要出來我們的數據是有掌握但是至於那個指引的內容就給我們一些時間那一些時間是多久時間可以三個月嗎好那再麻煩三個月內把這個指引弄出來所以也麻煩我們的警政跟檢查法院的這個資訊平台的一個互通 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15284.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15298.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
這些的歷史性的資料應該是要完整的而不是兼塗成分局送的比較少資料的時候使得我們的值班檢察官又漏接那護衛相對人的話麻煩這個評估工具在三個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15299.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15319.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件因為這件看起來他已經多次就已經有在反映這件事情要明確的去訂定這些相關的案件的所以請我們的法務部可能針對我們的值班的檢察官還有我們的警政單位應該要加強你們的專業訓練以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15326.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15348.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
像我先補充一下就剛剛林委員提到那個是確實實務上面的問題那我們是不是說請法務部在因為內勤檢察官在收案的時候他可能不會是婦幼專屬的所以剛剛林委員有提到說就教育訓練的部分不能只專注在婦幼專屬我覺得這有必要其實實務上面這部分再麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15350.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15377.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
次長這邊那個能夠協助處理一下然後另外就是我們今天有提到麻煩警政署那邊在製作筆錄的時候因為檢察官他在詢問時通常被害人就不會到場了是只有被告會到場那這部分呢就可能會產生檢察官他拿到的歷史資料是不足的所以我剛有提到說可能這個已經家暴20年但是送到地檢署的資料只有當次的那在檢察官來說會以為這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15378.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15406.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
多年來偶發的一個事情所以就沒有申請羈押這一部分可能要麻煩警政署這邊要請在警察在製作筆錄的時候一定要再問被害人就是說他們跟被告在相處的時候的一些狀況提供給檢察官判斷好嗎然後最後就是那個法務部這邊因為法務部這次給的那個報告就撤禁作為的部分其實沒有內容就是它裡面只有講到說你們開了幾次會然後做怎麼樣宣導以及適用的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15406.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15422.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
但是這個東西不足的像司法院的撤進作為裡面就有提到借接的部分有詳細去論述這一塊但是那個法務部的都沒有那是不是請法務部能夠在兩個禮拜內就這個撤進作為的部分能夠補一份資料給我就到底要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15423.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15443.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
好不好 不然你們原本給我的資料是只有論述你過往開的幾次會 並沒有徹徑作為好不好 好 謝謝那今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢 那詢答結束委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料或書面或以書面答覆者請相關機關請勿送交個別委員及本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15445.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15458.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
委員范雲、王宏威、徐欣盈所提書面執行均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |