| IVOD_ID |
16810 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16810 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025070920 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-11T11:30:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-11T12:42:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:11:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea0b181e571ea4451816bf8e932c588e1380a0af5ed963d0f58cf9860ca2c8a1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-11T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院內政、司法及法制兩委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等20人及委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」、委員陳玉珍等18人（第11002137號）擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等17人及委員高金素梅等18人分別擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」、委員陳玉珍等18人（第11006972號）擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」、委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」、委員李彥秀等16人及委員邱鎮軍等16人分別擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」、委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」、委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」及委員蘇清泉等19人、委員黃捷等18人、委員范雲等24人、委員徐富癸等17人、委員許智傑等26人分別擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。二、本院委員許宇甄等19人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」，請審議案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:30:14 - 12:42:00 |
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17.039 |
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17.18 |
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谢谢大家 |
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135.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
141.8 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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393.686 |
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396.032 |
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MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
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630.469 |
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631.391 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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718.598 |
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719.566 |
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由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
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824.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
826.186 |
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MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
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903.311 |
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903.411 |
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谢谢观看 |
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945.981 |
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947.534 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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983.251 |
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983.391 |
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感谢观看 |
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1026.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1034.531 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1054.48 |
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1065.299 |
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響鐘 |
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1108.49 |
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1109.206 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1137.242 |
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1144.172 |
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MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
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1167.677 |
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1169.65 |
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MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
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1235.055 |
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1235.155 |
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谢谢观看 |
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1308.427 |
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1313.64 |
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谢谢观看 欢迎订阅 |
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1366.855 |
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1370.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1512.588 |
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1530.037 |
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明镜与点点栏目 |
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1556.495 |
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1560.486 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1596.127 |
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1598.2 |
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MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
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1631.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1631.97 |
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谢谢观看,下次见! |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1698.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1699.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1756.323 |
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1757.244 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1889.401 |
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1904.528 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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1925.51 |
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1927.312 |
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MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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2009.694 |
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2010.35 |
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by bwd6 |
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2123.996 |
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2124.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
谢谢观看 |
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2197.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2197.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2234.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2241.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
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2279.233 |
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2291.32 |
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好 大家好我們今天召開這個地方制度法的這個協商本次協商委員賴思寶等分別擬據地方制度法部分條文修正草案等17案 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2292.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2310.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
於114年6月2號本院第11屆第三會期內政司法及法治兩委員會第二次聯席會議審查完畢並決議交由黨團協商第二徐玉珍委員等19人擬據地方制度法第55條及第56條修正條文草案於114年6月27日於本院第11屆第三會期第18次決議禁覆二讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2316.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2342.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那我們就在 相關的條文 我們在今天來進行黨團協商我們先介紹在場的委員及行政官員的代表委員的部分 我們王美惠委員黃婕委員張宏祿 昭緯我們高靜素美委員以及陳玉珍委員官員的部分 我們內政部 劉思芳部長財政部 阮慶華 政務次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2344.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2372.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
原民會鍾行華副主任委員好好我跟大家補充說明一下有關於本日的協商會議為了這個提高效率加速進度本期建議我們與委員會審議有共識的條文33條跟61條其實就經過充分討論已經有共識了還有那天委員會決議不予修正的條文我們就照委員會審議通過好不好可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2375.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2386.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
之前有共識的我們就照委員會版本通過好那我們今天就是55 56跟83之7嘛剩下三條還沒有共識的還有進副二讀55 56我們就進行協商可以嗎好我們請高進樹梅委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2392.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2408.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
建議周偉喔 第83條之7好像我們在6月2號的時候有提一個在修正動議版本今天大家是不是先看一下這個比較沒有預計我們就節省時間就先讓這個提在修正動議的通過可以嗎 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2409.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2435.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們先處理這個可以嗎 不好意思 謝謝我徵詢一下在場委員的意見啦因為83條之七狀況是這樣啦就我們在委員會的時候其實已經接近是有共識的狀態嘛那我們請這個相關的部會跟高清素美委員跟我們原住民各委員在座溝通之後其實是比較容易達成共識的所以我徵求一下在場委員的意見我們先從83條之七開始協商可以嗎好那大家手上有高清委員的再修正動議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2436.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2443.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
上面有寫1140602 9點53分的這個再修正動議或者是這一本議案關係文書的第71頁有列進去嘛 再修正動議嘛對不對好 請張宏祿召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2457.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2472.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那天我們大家都講得很清楚了啦就是只有文字的調整嘛對不對財政部有沒有來 如果OK的話我們就這樣子啊來 財政部 阮政次有問題嗎 按照再修正動議的條文來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2489.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2511.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為這邊高金委員在提的再修正東翼這部分上次討論以後基本上大家都有共識相關有意見的委員我們就也跟他們溝通大概都同意基本上都贊同所以我們對這個案子我們是尊重貴院的大院寫上的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2514.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2527.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好 謝謝我們阮政務次長請問在場委員跟相關的官員有沒有意見要補充的針對八十三條之七高軍宿美委員等提的再修正動議請問大家有想法或意見要補充嗎好 請劉仕旺部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2528.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2550.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不好意思我想不是屬於那個法議裡面的部分就是在83條之7的第二項裡面直轄市改制前各該山地鄉這個我們有問題因為改制直轄市之前叫山地鄉但是改制成直轄市之後叫山地原住民區所以剛剛的那個文字上面用寫的這部分寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2551.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2571.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
即改制後原個該山地鄉市權已由直轄市辦理之經費這個部分的話呢就是要不要在修正動議條文裡面的說明再說明清楚那這樣子我們在未來要配合的部分尤其是在民政單位配合比較好處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2573.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2601.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好 謝謝劉思芳部長的補充 真的非常仔細齁我重新念一下這個83條之7的第二點啦齁如果照 我只覺得條文直接修正就好啦直接來調整嘛 我們把它變成我重新念一次 直轄市改制前前 各該三地鄉前三年度總預算稅出平均數扣除上級政府額外補助之平均數及改制後各該三地原住民區市權已由直轄市辦理之經費好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2602.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2628.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
文字上做一下這樣的調整可以嗎好 請問各位有意見嗎沒有好那我們就照來我們再看一下螢幕啊我們為求周延好不好我們看一下螢幕螢幕看一個啦螢幕看一個好我們祖民哭一直哭啦哭啦 變成哭啦對啦想到現在哭他請祖民了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2635.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2659.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
就是說文字修正通過啊好不好對就在說明裡面給他做這個說明一下就好了我們直接修條文好還是修說明就好我覺得修條文直接把它講清楚會不會有問題說明裡面吧因為這是這個再修正動議版我請教一下議事可以再調整嗎因為已經是再修正動議了可不可以調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2661.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2671.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對 文字內容可不可以調整今天協商還是可以調整協商還是可以調整啦 好不好那我們在場委員簽個名啦 好不好 這樣比較簡單 好不好好好 今天我們在場的委員蘇銘先生好 好 卵市長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2676.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2690.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
跟各位委員報告還有主席那個原來的文字高經委員的原文字是說改制後原各該山地相得他有原這個字是吧對那如果說所以剛剛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2691.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2693.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其實劉部長講的是有道理 可是你看他喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2712.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2738.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們的條文裡面第一次向他有其他相關因素他後面已經寫了由直轄市恰商山地原住民區定資他的法令的前後是要定義那個之前的原住民鄉但他最後已經有寫原住民區所以大家要想清楚沒有就這樣因為他本來是多一個原嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2740.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2751.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
即改字後原各三地鄉嘛但是因為你既然已經把文字修正成三地原住民區嘛就把原字字拿掉嘛你改字後各三地原住民區市權等等等等後面一樣嘛如果是這樣子勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2752.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2769.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
不是啦不是啦這樣意識會不一樣嗎好沒關係這樣意識就不一樣囉這樣意識就跟原來的不一樣好那我們再討論一下沒有關係報告昭偉不同這個我同意那個剛剛鴻祿昭偉所說的因為在這個第四第四項裡面其他書那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2771.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2796.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
呃 呃 由直轄市洽商3D原住民區已經有講了所以呢對 已經都說了所以其實文字其實不用修正對不對不用修正 不用修正意思是這樣對不對對好 對對對那我們在說明欄的部分我們再討論一下因為劉部長建議在說明欄的部分做一下清楚的說明也可以嘛 好不好可以啦那我們在說明欄的部分做補助可以嗎好 那我們就條文文字我們就還是照原來高金委員的再修正東西通過可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2798.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2822.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好謝謝那我們83條之7我們就這樣處理喔謝謝有達成共識感謝大家好那我們現在進入55跟56條我跟大家報告一下為例討論我們一樣把這個各個委員的版本做了統合那統一變成55跟56的再修正動議是由本席來提出的這個大家桌上應該有是114071112點55 56條的再修正動議我們就以這個為討論基礎好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2828.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2834.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那我們就一條一條來喔請問第55條的部分請問大家有問題嗎好 請來 55條 請問各黨員有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2849.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2874.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
有請 沒關係 看誰要講好 請黃婕委員好 那這個其實我們在委員會都表達過非常清楚的意見了就是六都之中其實人口的差異還是非常大如果要考慮公平性那或者是要有一定的指標的話我覺得認為是比較有參考性而不是一概的設為三人那這個也是要避免因人涉事啦所以我還是認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2875.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2892.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這個我們在這邊恕難同意因為到目前為止也沒有一個好的理由來說服所有的人民說到底為什麼六都裡面所有的副市長都要設為三位而且各個六都裡面其實人口的差異非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2893.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2920.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那如果不用人口作為指標到底要用什麼作為指標這件事情在委員會我每一次都拿出來討論但是也都沒有獲得大家沒有很好的共識也都沒有一個可以說服人民的理由所以我還是認為如果不要變成說是因人受事不要因為說很像是蔣萬安條款那在這邊大家一定要更清楚的說明才可以說服大眾所以這一條我沒有辦法同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2922.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2946.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好 謝謝 我們請陳玉珍委員其實這個第55條的再修正動議六都統一設置這個副市長三人這樣的修正更顯示出沒有因人設施因為這個不管哪一都我們現在六都以前有以前我記得台南那時候要升為直轄市的時候也是有一些這個因為很多其他的討論那時候反而是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2947.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2959.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
有因為 要生他的做一些改變不過這沒關係啦因為不管是 直銷市不管是人數多還是人數少這個繁雜程度是一樣的一樣會有那麼多的事情 就像中華民國現在2300萬人跟這個其他這個國家不同人 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2965.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2973.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
需要做的事情還是那麼多的更何況根據我國人口的統計從113年開始我們現在大概2340萬人但是博發會有報告從今年開始會進入負成長因為我們生不如死的關係所以會進入負成長那129年以後總人數就會下降成2100萬人那所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2989.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3005.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
最重要不要因人設施而要建立制度那所以就因為我們不知道哪一個都就是六都不管台北高雄台南哪裡會增加或減少說不定高雄會增很多人那台北說不定會下降因為也許我們政府特別注重南部高雄的人口會不會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3006.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3023.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有可能啦 世界發展不一樣 由西到東都有可能以前城市的發展重心在西邊 現在發展到東邊來嘛那到時候難道又因為這樣子 又把高雄高雄現在幾位 然後到時候再增加嗎那所以就乾脆統一 直轄市就統一三位因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3024.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3051.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
不管你是人多人少你的那個縣市政府要管理的事情還是一樣多的而且事情多的話縣長下面的副市長要分工以後才不會說一下人數如果多多一個市長他本來原來管公務一個管教育原來另外一個講說管財政那人又少的話財政下又要分給另外一個人就是這樣會很混亂為了這個施政上面最終的我們施政目的最終是要照顧老百姓的福祉所以建立制度最重要所以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3052.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3064.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
六都我們就分成直轄市五十五條跟五十六條是一般縣市就直接就設定三人跟兩人這兩條是連動的大概是這個意思好謝謝陳玉珍委員好請王美惠委員主席在這裡我的意見我是覺得說剛才有很多我是還不能認同說很多人會負責任都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3081.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3083.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
跟你們都一樣的心 譬如說五十萬人和二十五萬人的福祉都兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3091.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3101.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
你們不可以依靈靠所家庭的範圍去設定一下因為我的主張 我覺得說沒有他們在設定那些都是騙人的啦沒有什麼的充裕 不會去給這個六都會三的市長大家也知道要做什麼用的所以說 想一個法要改一個法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3119.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3127.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
要審慎評估 要講出真正需要的問題存在啦不是因為 拿什麼人去擺副市長的這樣不好啦 以上好 謝謝 請李某議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3136.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3157.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
還是表達一下這在委員會裡面其實我們也是一再的來提出來那剛剛可能非本委員會的委員他對於剛實在討論的內容有一些不太了解那現在重點就是說六都目前遇到人口會低於250萬現行250萬以下才會變成兩位副市長的這個條例要因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3163.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3182.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
台北市他的人口不達250萬那所以好我就大放送來修所有的直轄市我全部都設三個副市長講的是好聽啦事實上就是為了台北市所以我們還是覺得你現行的250萬沒有辦法達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3184.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3203.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
當初的設計就是為了包含這些人口比例等等我們都必須要去衡量的情況下現行上為了台北市人口不足250萬而去修訂讓每個直轄市有三個副市長我覺得這個我們還是要再多討論這是我們的意見跟我們的立場 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3205.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3226.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好謝謝李博弈委員我再做一個補充啦就之前我們在委員會其實也提過嘛就大部分人對於副市長也好副縣長也好的主要職能其實就是跨局處的協調嘛那其實不管人多人少大家在局處分配基本上都是滿邊的狀態換言之六都大家都有三十幾個局處啦三十幾個局處那縣市政府大概也都是二十幾個局處左右啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3226.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3255.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那我們的意思是講說如果因為人口數量齁指甲是副市長有多有少那其他勤務分配是不太公平啦我們如果是從局處分配督導局處的角度跨局合作的角度其實多一點人力是有幫助的我想這是我們會之所以會主張統一標準的原因那第二個就是財政收支劃分法修正之後一定地方的市權會大幅增加啦那既然錢增加了人也要增加做的事也要增加我想這是大家都不會反對的方向好不好我想做一個補充我們現在請張榮路召委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3258.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3273.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我必須要說啦如果照大家我剛剛聽了這樣大家有不同的那個現在市長要幹嘛市長都不用做事啦都不用做事了嗎我想再做啦只有我當過市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3275.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3299.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我覺得這不應該啦真的覺得不應該啦你有一個人口有一個這個你也讓這個當市長的人他有努力把他這個他這個地區建設的好那你的建設好人民就會去你那裡啊你是有多少人要做多少事情那你才去說有幾個副市長我認為這才是一個合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3300.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3326.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不然如果要這樣說五個不是更多人可以做事嗎五個副市長不是更好嗎 對不對那你要想一想喔如果以這樣的話我們新北市的人口我們新北市的面積哇 那多不公平啊我們新北也是叫你們比照三個人這是沒有一個衡量的標準我認為是不應該的啦你要去修這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3327.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3342.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我也不反對但不能說不出一個理由然後就說要幾個要幾個所以我覺得這一點要思考一下好 謝謝洪都昭委其實我們今天討論大概在委員會的時候其實也講得差不多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3342.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3372.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那其實我們當初心態也蠻開放嘛因為新北市本來就是全台灣幅員最大人口最多的城市嘛所以我們那時候其實甚至都有討論過如果新北市要再增加其實也可以但就要有版本出來嘛都要有版本出來那沒有關係嘛我們討論到現在大家也發言的差不多我覺得論理也差不多啦好不好那這條顯然在今天的會議我們也沒有辦法達成共識好不好那我們就保留OK那56條56條是縣市的部分嘛副縣長副市長的部分好我們請問大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3374.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3387.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
一樣要保留來 一樣我們洪祖宇我覺得一般縣市更不能這樣一般的縣市人口面積的差別真的太大了真的差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3388.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3411.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們以現在我們中華民國所轄的領土裡面有幾萬人的也有上百萬人的那你都完全都沒有考慮就這樣子我覺得真的是我個人是覺得非常反對啦那尤其啊你說這個法案通過之後115年1月1號就適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3412.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3423.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我認為真的不應該欸你要也是下界試用啊我覺得才合理啊不能你這樣子馬上就試用我真的覺得這很多大家要考量一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3424.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3445.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 謝謝洪路昭委還有沒有委員要補充好 我們陳玉珍委員先好不好 我們盡量輪流陳玉珍委員 然後李柏毅委員這個我覺得喔 尤其縣市喔剛剛那個張洪路委員說 這個縣市當然縣市有大小但是麻雀雖小也只有五張巨錢啊就是跟我們的主張一樣剛剛直轄市也是有大小 要民國99年那時候台南市那時候也不夠革新的時候 那時候也 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3445.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3474.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我也台南市修了後來就變成直轄市嘛他說這過去了就是說一個縣市比如說金門縣市很小很偏遠很小那嘉義市也不是特別大的市啦那這些市也都是會需要有需要治理的事項不會小的地方不會自己比較輕鬆有時候老百姓的要求有時候還會更細緻要求的更那個服務更要到位啦這個是這個在小地方的這種這個公職人員的感受啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3474.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3498.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以我覺得就是縣市的話如果直下是三個那縣市兩個那我覺得這一點應該算是也是對國家對一個這個不管各個地方不管你人多人少偏遠就像我們對原住民的照顧一樣原住民的數更少啊我們要照顧他那至於會休說會休說是要從100明年的1月1號開始是因為是配合著這個財政說法化分法的關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3499.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3522.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我對這一點當然沒有特別堅持啦就是說是下一屆開始我個人也覺得還可以但是我們這個提出來的提案是明年開始主要還是為了財化法財化法那時候我在主審財化法的時候那個內政部的那個次長有特別講說財化法通過以後相關的這個都要修就是人啦包括因為責任會變大嘛事情要變多嘛所以責任會變大會變多財化法通過以後所以就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3526.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3541.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
就是其他都要更多人來做一點事情以上謝謝好 謝謝陳玉珍委員我們請李柏毅委員我先說一下好 可以 沒關係不好意思我覺得這個民主政治然後你選出的縣市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3543.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3566.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我選的是你縣市長欸你縣市長如果沒有能力你下次人家不選你了不是人多你就可以做好事啦我覺得是應該這樣啦你去我們有很多東西你服務的服務人員的比例跟什麼其實都有一個規範都有一個標準那我們等於說政府就完全沒有標準了完全都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3567.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3587.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我覺得如果你們要這樣子講那直轄市跟一般縣市的直等也不一樣難道直等高的就比較會做事嗎我覺得不是這樣所以我真的覺得這個要考量然後你說配合這個才化法我跟你講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3589.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3612.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
每年縣市長每天都在跟行政院要錢難道他當初要的錢多的他就沒有家人他就可以做那現在有錢多了就要多了我覺得這個邏輯不大對啦對不對你跟中央要補助款要了很多的時候你那時候也沒說我人手不夠啊你不要給我那麼多錢我覺得這個邏輯不對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3615.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3634.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 謝謝趙委員 我們先請剛剛舉手李柏宇委員謝謝 其實跟第55條一樣 55條 56條它的概念一樣 它的連動性是一樣的那我簡單講 我翻譯成白話文就是說國民黨加民眾黨得到立法院多數之後 藉由修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3635.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3653.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為他們的執政縣市多包含這個蔣萬恩市長如果在明年度那有副市長離職的話那他可能會少一個副市長哇哇叫沒有辦法拜託立法委員趕快來修法讓台北市雖然低於250萬也可以有三位副市長在 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3654.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3665.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
附帶放送所有的直轄市都可以有三位副市長之外所有的縣市因為我們執政的縣市長多再加一位到兩位的副縣長這是55條 56條我用白話文說給民眾聽是這樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3670.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3692.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
但是國民黨當然也是提出一些理由包含這個財化法給地方多那麼多錢所以要多給你副市長問題是現在地方該多做什麼事情都還沒有講好現在行政區劃有沒有要再重新討論都沒有講好的情況下急著在115年施行這不是為了蔣萬安 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3693.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3714.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是為了什麼這不是為了這些先是要多行是為了什麼我們今天的修法是這個所以我也是在這個協商的過程還是表達一下我們希望可以用很多方面來討論而不是這樣子直接的去做這樣的一個討論好 謝謝好 謝謝李博義委員我們請李恩秀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3715.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3738.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好 這個不管是不是才化法的修法其實中央的很多政策都是滾動式的調整我們好比社會安全網我們希望增加社工人員之前的食安事件有一些議題我們中央跟地方又重新分工所以很多事情是滾動式的調整在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3740.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3764.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
各縣市都有增加副市長這個對於未來專業的分工其實是好事你要想說我們各縣市中央只要一個政策哪怕譬如說是都更的調整或者譬如說我們現在推動的國家安全任性也好未來要增加多少工作的內容其實我們分工的更專業好比我們現在在談都更很多副市長他可能他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3764.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3782.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
文化或教育專業他一下子要跨那麼大的科別對於現在會不會踩到法令上的一些問題或者是因為處理這些事情他又要再去回歸到問更多專業的人員所以有時候在市政推動的效率就會打折扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3783.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3809.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
所以我覺得對於像王委員未來馬上就是市長所以未來專業的分工我覺得是好事一樁會不會因為多一個副市長增加多少的費用沒有因為增加一個副市長或多增加了多幾個機要人員那個是本來就配備在裡頭的這是第一點我要表達的第二就是說市政的推動是不能等待的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3809.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3834.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那才化法之後才化法是一回事但是我們很多專業分工其實平常就在滾動式的做調整所以我覺得這個時間點為什麼定在1月1號市政的推動不能等所以我再一次我覺得這件事情沒有分任何顏色2026選完之後各縣市到底是一個什麼樣的狀態跟狀況大家都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3836.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3862.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
各縣市有藍有綠但是對於各縣市的縣民跟市民來說行政效率相對是重要的所以我覺得我們不能立法院什麼事情都用政治來看待我每次跟民眾跟年輕的好朋友高中生在分享我說你們從電視上看到的都是藍綠很多政治議題但是在立法院有更多的是非政治議題我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3864.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3886.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
通過的反而沒有被大家關注到我們也處理到很多有共識的議題所以我希望這樣的一件事情是不分藍綠大家可以來看待縣民跟市民對於行政效率的推動還有副市長在專業的分工上可以更精準所以我希望是朝這兩個面向來去做討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3887.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3903.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
就是大家的看法我都尊重但是這件事情如果可以從不同的角度跳脫大家各自政黨的角度來看我們只站在縣民跟市民的角度來看的話可不可以有更多不同考量的地方以上是我的說法謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3910.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3932.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我還是再次強調啦如果跳脫藍綠大家就是看一個公平性那我認為原本的這個地方製度法的設計就是用人口數作為一個依據這樣是最公平的那現在你們說要把這個人口數的這個指標拿掉不論六都人口多少不論縣市人口多少全部都要增加一個副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3933.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3952.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那這樣公平性在哪裡你們不是說要用一個有公平的一個制度來看待嗎我看不出任何公平的一個指標那甚至剛剛這樣子其實以這個彥秀委員的說法好像把蔣萬安講得真的很無能真的很沒有效率少了一個副市長整個台北市政府就要垮了就要癱瘓了這麼嚴重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3954.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3968.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
啊真的台北市確實人口在減少啊那減少一個副市長就是依照這個人口的指標所以去調整的嘛那如果接下來如果台北市的人口又超過250萬了這個副市長一樣會補回來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3971.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3986.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那就剛剛的說法好像真的台北市沒有了這個第三個副市長哇 整個台北市變得超級沒有效率沒有辦法分工整個台北市就做不了事了那這樣不是更顯得這個市長真的做得很不好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3987.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4015.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以剛剛彥秀委員的意思是不是在指涉蔣萬安其實真的如果沒有副市長台北市就要垮了是不是這個意思呢那剛剛其實有講到這個養一個副市長到底要多少錢這個我們在委員會其實有討論過基本一個副市長就是一年700萬以上不外乎那些機要加上那些機要零零總總加起來可能要超過千萬有沒有這個可能可以請部長補充他們都有精算過 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4015.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4020.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那你想喔 補一個副市長700萬 一年700萬其實你把這個錢拿去補給基層的公務員可以多養好幾個 十幾個警消醫護委那你們希望說可以提升整個城市治理的效能可以提升整個城市治理讓更多市民可以做到他們服務品質更好那去補一個基層的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4040.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4064.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我認為更值得欸你們如果真的因為人口增加然後需要的服務的對象變多那我認為你們可以把這個扣打這700萬拿去增加地方的基層公務員的緣額甚至我覺得這個都還對於市民更有直接的幫助而不是為了蔣萬安一定要補這個第三個副市長好 以上好 謝謝 我們請陳玉珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4065.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4089.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我想我們討論事情從來也不是在討論某個人我們在這裡身為國會議員討論是制度所以我們在想說專業的分工最終服務的是市民是縣民所以不是說什麼誰有能責任各個縣市是不是誰在哪裡像那種颱風電影有沒有在國內是不是還要再討論我們不是在討論這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4090.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4107.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
就不討論這些事情所以我們就在討論這個條文所以我們不是要討論這些我們要討論怎麼樣幫人家來做服務錢我也不真正討論這些事情我們現在是說怎麼來幫老百姓做最好的服務不過我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4120.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4143.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
稍微保留啦,沒結果啦,給了以為啦好啦,那我再簡單說一下,我再舉個例子啦雖然人口按照趨勢來講,它會越來越少啦但是事情會越來越多啦我舉個例子,譬如說最近大家講為了因應什麼這個全世界的這個淨零排放,對不對是不是大家規定要永續漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4143.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4167.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那麼這個東西到了地方政治,它實務上它其實就是永續長由副縣市首長兼任嘛所以我意思是說副縣市首長的工作會越來越多也有人口少、子女化、居住正義等等多一點人本來就是有必要的那剛剛我們委員講說多一個副市長會增加一些些的財政負擔七、八百萬對不對,加上機要可能會多但我們每一個以直轄市政府來講,每一年的預算是一千多億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4168.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4193.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
甚至兩千億以上的這樣的一個預算規模財化法增加以來都是數百億以上的規模相關的事權也一定會增加所以我想這個我覺得不是什麼因不因人設不設事嘛如果大家淡化在我們也講明年還是日出嘛對不對因為一開始你們講這個事情的時候也講說馬上就上路是為了什麼什麼政治操作沒有的事情嘛我們就用日出條款的方式來處理這我想我們都是善盡最大的誠意啦那還有沒有委員要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4195.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4203.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好吧那看起來還是沒有共識吧那我們就只好55 56我們就保留好不好但沒關係謝謝大家至少我們今天83條之七有達成共識好 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4206.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4230.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
好 那我宣讀一下協商結論第一 協商通過條文83條17照委員高金素梅等五人所提再修正動議通過第二 保留條文55及56條我們就提報院會依議事規則處理第三 其餘均照審查會審查結果通過請問大家有沒有意見沒有好 那我們請協商代表稍微簽一下名好不好謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4238.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4242.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
回來了 已經回來了 去馬家鄉了一回國石頭回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4260.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4284.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
昨天晚上回來,台風已經過了我剛剛跟你講說不要再講了你講台灣頭我就要講台灣尾啊你們人比較少,我們四個人啊你們人比較少,這樣保留已經對你們很好啊他講台灣頭我就講一講台灣尾,不知道剛剛好唄這樣等一下又不是說那個這個跟那個有什麼他睡覺,他睡覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4285.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4298.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
也激動也激動,我幫你嘉義爭取政策好不好好,謝謝你,掰掰你要支持啊那我要宣告吧,還是不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4316.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4316.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
拜拜 |