| IVOD_ID |
16808 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16808 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T08:30:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T19:02:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
10:31:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6093e86da1e12e7f156445fc32f41448fc080a0af5ed963d0f5afb65da1631aaa0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:16 - 19:02:00 |
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報告全院委員會,現在我們繼續開會今天分別審查司法院大法官被提名人蕭文森先生、鄭純惠女士、林麗穎女士之資格及是否事任相關事項我們分別由每位被提名人說明10分鐘之後再進行委員的詢問每位委員詢答時間20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1821.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1838.937 |
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採急問急答的方式進行輪到詢問的委員不在場視為放棄現在首先我們要請審查被提名人蕭文森先生資格相關事項請被提名人蕭文森先生說明時間10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1849.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1851.346 |
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主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1852.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1880.663 |
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大家早 我是蕭文森目前任職於中正大學法律系今天很高興以大法官被提名的身份來立法院接受審查我的報告分成兩個部分一個是我的生平學習還有工作歷程一個是事任大法官的說明首先我來跟各位介紹一下我的生平學習還有工作歷程我來自中台灣一個在我們台灣叫做三多 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1883.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1899.203 |
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巴勒多董事长多的社头乡我在那边享受了非常快乐的童年那我的国小跟国中都是在那边度过的那念完国中之后呢我到台北念师大附中师大附中完之后呢很顺利的进入台大就学 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1899.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1929.072 |
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那我们当时的台大的环境呢非常好因为我们有来自各国留学背景的老师我们有年轻的有年长的教授我们也有纯学术的也有纯理论的教师所以我们在那段期间里面呢享受了非常精彩的教学活动那很多老师呢也给我们讲授了很多外国的经验那从那段时间开始慢慢慢慢我也希望呢能够追随老师的脚步呢到国外去留学 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1929.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1954.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那大學畢業之後因為到歐洲跟美國不一樣我們要透過留歐的考試那很幸運的我通過留歐考試之後得到德國科隆大學跟慕尼黑大學的入學資格那我先到科隆大學念完語言班並通過語言考試之後我就到德國慕尼黑大學就讀博士班 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1955.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1972.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那很幸運的是我大學時候的兩位老師,翁業生老師跟廖益蘭老師的介紹,找到當時候德國慕尼葉大學的法學院院長巴杜拉教授,那我也在他的同意之下跟他進行博士的研究。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1973.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1995.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
當時在台灣其實學工法是一個冷門的課程常常被笑稱說找不到工作我為什麼會選擇工法呢第一個原因當然就是因為我到了德國以後發現我們在台灣所學的工法相對來講是比較落後的德國的工法學它的領域之廣研究深度之深震懾了我 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1995.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2011.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那第二個是很現實面的問題因為當時候台灣正在解嚴跟戒嚴的一個關鍵時期那工法學的人才其實是迫切需要的那我是想說這樣回來是不是找工作會比較方便一點我就學習工法 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2012.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2027.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那除了在這個課程的研究之外呢我也去學習了我們台灣在當時比較陌生的比如說歐洲的法律競爭法金融監理等等那在德期間的一個可以跟各位推薦的就是說我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2029.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2050.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
德國期間得到一個因為德國的政黨他們都有自己的獎學金我拿到基督民主聯盟政黨的博士獎學金一年半那一年半呢除了錢的支持之外呢讓我有機會跟很多很多國外來的各國的這個博士生啊能夠有交有合作的機會那這個其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2052.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2065.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
滿難得的那1992年呢我在我的教授 巴杜拉教授的支持還有另外一位德國法學家雷爾教授的鑑定書的協助之下呢 順利通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2066.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2094.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
博士口試也拿到博士學位那1992年我回到台灣那也真的很幸運在我們中正大學的法律所創所所長江玉雄的協助之下進駐中正大學任教那中正大學在當時是一個剛設立的國立大學環境非常優美環境非常優美那學生非常純樸那我在那個氣氛之下尤其是我們首任的校長林青江校長他基本上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2096.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2114.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
對老師也好,對學生也好,是一個開放的態度所以我在那邊享受了非常快樂的工作時光我的研究初期是憲法、行政法跟公平交易法後來就轉變成憲法、行政法、地制法還有傳播法我開設的課程也是環繞這個而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2116.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2132.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那除了在教學工作之外呢我也主持過多項的研究計畫那包括公平會國歌會等等那在校期間呢我也有幸啊擔任這個學術工作除了在學校的出版組擔任組長之外我也曾經擔任過 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2134.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2159.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
中正大學法律系的系主任以及中正大學法學院的院長這個行政工作讓我學習到各種意見多元的世界也讓我能夠除了一般的老師之外也能接觸到各個我們學校的公務人員這個對我的想法來講會有一些新的注入生命力除了在學校服務之外我也有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2161.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2186.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個所謂的社會服務啦我擔任過考試院內政部還有我們中部的因為我的學校在中南部所以包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣嘉義縣、嘉義市、台南縣等的書院委員會那另外呢也曾經擔任過這個交通部的法規委員會然後呢嘉義縣市政府、台南市政府的這個法規委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2187.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2213.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
換句話就說除了在學校的教學經驗之外我對於這個人民的溯源權還有法規的制定我也有參與目前來講就是進入學校已經三十幾年了希望有這個機會除了在學校的工作之外有機會再貢獻自己的才能這是我的工作說明接下來就是事任大法官的說明首先就是說我除了傳統的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2215.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2222.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個憲法行政法之外因為在德國的時間接觸到很多的領域所以我對於傳統的領域有 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2223.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2247.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
精深的研究之外另外就一些大家比較常忽略的然後認為可能是政治學門經濟學門或者財政學門的領域包括中央銀行金融監理審計規費預算特別功課等我有特別的琢磨另外針對比較新進的比如說工業4.0自駕車這個我最近也有發表一些論文那我之所以希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2249.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2272.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
涉獵這些的目的除了開闊我們法律人的觀點之外也希望將來如果有機會擔任大法官因為大法官不是只有處理法律專業的問題他涉及到人民生活各個面向涉及到國家各個的政策領域如果有這些知識應該能夠做得更完美一點當然除了這些之外我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2273.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2291.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
研究成果呢當然除了博士論文之外我自己有八本的專書三本的這個教科書一百多篇的論文那今年的五月六月呢另外出了兩本的學術專論那我這些著作裡面啊當然有些跟我們大法官的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2292.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2311.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
工作是直接相關的那我的第一本受到大家注目的是國家法就是國家組織篇這個當然就是涉及到我們整個權力分立制度還有國家各機關的這樣的一個運作等等那另外一篇是涉及到整個人權還有政府組織的一個爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2313.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2330.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那當然除了這些讓大家比較專業的比較深入的研究之外我有兩本教科書一本是傳播法的基礎理論跟實務另外一本是地制法的基礎理論跟實務這個是我作為一個法律學者我希望除了艱深的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2332.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2360.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
法律的知識之外對於其他有興趣法律但是他不是法律專業的人呢他也可以了解到我們現在的傳播法是什麼我們的地制法是什麼那當然除了這些專書之外呢專書論文期刊論文也是有很多涉獵到憲法的問題那有關於憲法訴訟法呢因為他的立法時程很長我在2007年就應這個這個月旦法學雜誌的邀請也發表了一篇當時針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2362.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2380.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
憲法訴訟法的一個草案的一個評論文章所以從上面的這個專業研究跟發表論文來看作為一個事先工作者的資格應該是沒有太大的問題那接下來就是闡述一下我對人權理念的這個還有維持憲政秩序的這個決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2382.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2402.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
基本上大法官是憲法的守護者那憲法最大的問題就是說它是用非常抽象的文字來規範人民跟國家之間還有國家跟國家之間的相互關係國家跟人民之間的關係主要是人權那各個國家之間的關係主要是權力分立跟制衡還有在現代民主法治國家運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2404.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2419.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
兩個不能偏廢那我就人權的想法是這樣人權隨著國際交流慢慢的普遍它有一個普世價值所以無論你是什麼樣政治制度保障人權都是最重要的但是保障人權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2420.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2449.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
程度跟種類會隨著國家的政治經濟文化不同而有所差異那國家機關差別更大因為國家機關的設計基本上沒有一個舉世皆准的制度所以在解釋國家機關之間的問題的時候沒有辦法用一個絕對的標準而是以該國的憲法規定跟實務作為一個基礎未來如果有幸的話我會以這兩個基本的任務來作為一個工作的重心 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2450.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2472.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我的報告到此結束 謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝蕭文森教授的說明我們現在要進行委員的詢問好 我們首先請吳宗憲委員詢問 麥玉忠委員請準備時間20分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2483.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2488.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
麻煩蕭教授麻煩請被提名的蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2497.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2517.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
蕭教授早安我在擔任新北市法治局局長的時候因為那時候需要多了解一些地方自治方面的事項有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2520.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2537.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2538.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2561.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2562.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2575.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2576.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2602.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健 翁岳昇 吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2603.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2620.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行 要與人民同戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2621.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2636.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2636.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2658.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母 缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2662.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2687.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權是不是?是或不是?當然啦,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁那我今天想要跟你討論的就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚就是行政院它刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2689.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2713.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2715.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2728.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2730.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2751.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這您書裡面寫的?這當然那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2752.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2779.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那這些錢呢 它本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦 例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦 等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月 主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消 還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了 然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給 你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2781.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2786.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2787.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2816.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2817.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2836.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2837.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2865.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2867.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2893.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計畫型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得適其財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2894.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2912.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2915.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2933.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2934.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2962.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
沒關係我了解了所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2963.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2970.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2971.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2993.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
過往的慣例是沒錯 但是假設啦 我們前提有假設沒有假設 好 他的財政如果沒有那個蕭教授 我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款 扯到計畫性補助款那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少 應該給 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2996.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3015.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3017.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3040.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
沒關係啦 就這樣啦 我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題 其實我說真的 我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題 這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係 地方是中央的吹喊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3041.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3068.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
當然不是 兩個是獨立的公法人對 所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3070.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3091.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算,優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3092.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3115.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3116.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3146.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
如果立法委員的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法委員的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3146.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3162.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3163.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3184.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我沒有刁難你你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦我沒有期待了那我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3187.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3212.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
其實我跟你說啦 我今天來這邊證 結果很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好 一定要讓他過等等我說沒有 我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你 我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是 我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3214.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3229.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3230.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3257.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3260.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3279.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3280.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3305.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3307.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3325.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3326.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3350.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3351.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3377.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3378.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3395.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3397.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3424.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3427.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3451.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
謝謝委員提問 調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利它是一個輔助性 但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是 當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3452.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3471.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3472.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3487.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我們國家雖然是五權但是呢除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後做完之後呢十幾年都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3487.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3504.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3505.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3528.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3529.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3546.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3549.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3570.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3571.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3599.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
一再強調 調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授 越時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍 這個我都認同這個我完全認同 就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK 但是主軸我們的想法是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3601.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3618.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁罰任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3619.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3631.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
我們連這樣子要去追究他責任權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3632.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3656.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3658.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3676.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3680.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3707.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3721.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3749.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好 接下來我們請第二位詢問委員 麥玉珍委員請詢問賴瑞龍委員請準備主席好 有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名的蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3759.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3781.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
教授好你在自傳裡面有寫得非常清楚基本人權是所有國家機關設定的目的必須以普世價值作為標準現在的政府用行政命令把遠洋移工排除在勞基法外境內聘僱 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3783.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3797.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
與境外聘僱的雙軌制境內聘僱移工每月最低工資850元美金境外聘僱只有550元美金國際媒體報導批評台灣這種制度等於現在奴隸讓台灣這樣認為全球低薪與勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3810.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3828.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
剝削的代名詞這套制度導致工資差距400美元這樣不合理的差別的待遇你認為是否合憲這種做法難道不違反憲法第7條的平等權嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3835.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3847.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
首先在我國的人權一般來講分成三種一種就是我國國民的權利一種是你要有20歲以上的人才有的權利一種是所有人的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3848.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3864.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那麥委員所指導的這個問題這個涉及到工作權嘛那工作權的問題剛好在學說上就有兩派一派是認為這個是身為人應該有的權利一個是作為中華民國人民應該有的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3864.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3890.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以這個兩派在學術跟實務界各有不同的說法那早期大家認為是說工作權要保障本國人民所以他應該比較接近是屬於中華民國人民的人權外國人不保障在裡面但是外國人的工作權呢從這個就業服務法開始施行之後其實我們以台灣的勞工跟外籍勞工都同時享有最低基本工資 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3891.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3909.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
你看那個趨勢就是說慢慢慢慢工作權應該也要屬於一般的人權也就是說只要作為一個人不管你是本國人外國人都有應該都是這樣那你提供的問題在於就是說對於不同的漁工到底他有沒有正當理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3910.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3936.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為第七條平等權不是保障機械式的平等而是只要有正當理由就可以做差別待遇這個是正當理由我知道你是教授有很多要論述當弱勢勞工因為行政的效率與產業競爭力而被排除保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3937.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3951.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
是柔弱的差別待遇有正當性嗎你認為政府現在用的行政命令自我檢選的法律所保障的勞工基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3952.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3978.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
基本的權益這樣是否違反憲法第七條的平等權我問的是平等權這個是行政命令表示我們政府是用在我們的勞工不管境外境內都是台灣的行政命令所以我問的是平等權不用你論述那麼多的相關的限制人民的自由權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3979.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4005.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
依照大法官的解釋可以有兩種途徑一個單純用法律一個有法律但是呢加上法律的授權所以你是認同這樣的行政命令行政命令只要有法律的授權前提是有法律的授權但是你覺得這個有平等權你捍衛平等嘛所以我們覺得你捍衛平等權你覺得這樣子有平等嗎我先講就是說只要他有法律的依據形式上就OK |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4007.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4019.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
行事上這樣子是公平的 差異400塊是公平的對我們勞工是平等的行事上要有法律 接下來平不平等是實質理由就是剛才我講的實質啊一個850 一個550 這個叫做平等嗎到底有沒有正當理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4028.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4047.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個要看到底他的依據是什麼我再猜一下行政命令跟憲法是真當理由所以我問你 若未來你當大法官你覺得是怎麼樣才是真當理由對政府在保障弱勢的族群的基本人權還有勞工權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4047.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4072.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
你認為還有哪一些需要立即改變的地方是我們要的你講的是平等權以你現在要平等捍衛的來去論述不是任何黨派的大法官來論述好嗎好如果要我說各級勞工有沒有這個保障不平等的地方我想第一個應該就是因為我在德國德國對於這個民間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4076.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4104.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個公司跟公務員都有休假而且這個休假是有償的就是給錢的那現在這個大家都知道每一個國家都會有但是我想說你未來當大法官嘛你今天等於是來面試大法官所以你未來對弱勢有哪一些覺得現在政府做不足哪裡需要改進的地方我想要聽聽你未來你要做的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4105.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4124.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
如果一般的公務員也可以有油廠的休假我希望一定程度的企業因為企業有大有小如果是上市的我覺得也應該給予一定時間的油廠的休假這樣才比較符合勞工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4126.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4140.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個平等這是我的想法 謝謝所以你只是認為是這樣子沒有說立即想要改變所以說你的方法就是現在大家政府在進行中不是因為你大法官後才要去改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4142.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4164.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
在第二個我想要請教的是我們國際勞工組織第118號漁業工作公約早就明確保障漁工基本權益台灣每次碰到國際的批評就用國內未訂立專法來糊弄我們的勞工過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4165.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4168.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
因為我們國家最近也簽了很多施刑法那比如說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4195.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4211.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
公正公約然後兒童權利公約那只要這些公約在我們國家有施行法那我們每個施行法第二條都說公約的內容是中華民國視為法律的一部分這就沒有問題啊所以我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4212.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4240.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
在這個兩公約你覺得就用在這樣子的一個保障上你認同嗎你覺得可以嗎只要他成為我們國家的施行法的內容他有法律效力行政機關司法機關當然要遵守這個大家都知道但是因為境外境內還有就是說你認為大法官的解釋是否把國際人權公約當作憲法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4241.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4262.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
伊函的重要依據如果未來有人提起憲法的訴訟 主張違反生成權還有就是工作權以及海上的資訊權我國的司法該如何應對還有其技術力 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4263.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4280.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
應如何定位我們想要的是大法官的回應好 謝謝大法官解釋憲法依據憲法憲政慣例等等那我們目前來講國際公約大法官解釋說我們自己去簽的條約有法律效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4280.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4303.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那施行法裡面第二條就講各個公約有法律效力那我們在整個國家的運作上面憲法是比法律高一點所以立法院所制定的施行法法律不可能高於憲法這個是我第一個要說明的但是不可能高於憲法並不表示說大法官不能參照公約的內容作為他解釋的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4304.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4322.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
直接作為依據我覺得不可以因為公約還不是憲法公約在我們國家是法律的層級而已但是把公約很好的內容作為它的解釋理由將這個解釋理由得出來大家所要的決定這個我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4323.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4350.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好所以呢現在我講的是這個大法官的解釋依據還有就是說我們生存錢工作錢以及海上的資訊錢這個部分大家都聽到你都聽到大家也知道這個部分的話現在在海上是很多沒有Wi-Fi沒有這樣的資訊錢但是你認同所以未來希望你大法官的時候你就要去推動還有在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4352.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4379.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
人口販運的繁殖法對於遠洋漁工的適用還有被害人的認定也存在很多的漏洞依憲法第22條與國際人權公約國家是否有義務提供有效的救濟與人權交易你認為大法官是否應通過宣誓的表現推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4380.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4390.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這樣子的交易強化憲法價值與社會的傳達你覺得有必要嗎好 謝謝國家當然有保護人民的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4392.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4415.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
所以你覺得有必要我們再加強這一塊嗎?義務要怎麼樣履行,當然立法機關、行政機關甚至僱用遠洋漁工的老闆他們要共同去尋找一個大家可以接受的一個方案我覺得國家有保護人民的義務只是這個義務的施行可能不是只有一種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4416.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4441.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那我覺得是有有這個保護義務但是要怎麼做因為這個涉及到經費的使用等等我覺得這個要如果立法委員可以制定一個大家可以遵守的這個最好如果沒有現有的法律行政機關可以跟這個遠洋公司的老闆坐下來大家共同協商一個暫時性的保護漁工的一個方法這是我的想法 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4443.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4460.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好謝謝我們希望的是說推動更多人知道這個交易所以我覺得問你有沒有必要但是你講的就是覺得好像是部分必要還是不必要所以我們在請教你長期研究憲法與行政法對於法治 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4464.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4487.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
司法的制度有深入的了解你是否支持台灣民眾黨推動的法院組織法修正允許重大案件進行法庭公開播送讓民眾跟信任司法看清審理的過程你認為法庭公開播送有必要嗎 你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4489.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4499.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我個人是這樣說啦對一個有正面意見跟反面意見的制度當然大家各有不同的堅持但是我講的是原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4501.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4522.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為法庭這個概念涉及到很廣那以我們近來所通過的這個原則如果我講錯的話請委員指正就法律省原則公開例外不公開事實省原則不公開例外公開那以這個觀點來講法律省我贊成因為我們的大法官的延遲辯論已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4524.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4543.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
公開很久了而且大家都覺得大法官在做辯論的時候因為大法官主要針對法律問題所以對法律省的公開我覺得沒有問題除非他有像法律所講的妨害公共利益等等那這個是例外事實省的問題這個應該是所有支持或是反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4545.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4570.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
法庭直播比較大的一個核心問題因為我們國家這個40省的定義我們本來是希望一省40省二省就不要重複可是現在最大的問題就是說一二省幾乎在做同樣的事情所以只要能解決這個問題40省再加上貴院所這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4572.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4596.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
通過的有一些例外的規定然後要由法官做最後的裁決那如果真的有妨礙公共利益那是不允許的有妨礙事實的真實發現我們裡面有寫就是我們有寫允許重大案件很明確的我們台灣民眾黨認為現行法官法的內部評鑑程度反華 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4598.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4618.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是繁複太多無法有效的監督不適任的檢察官或者法官能讓不當的行為無所遁形形成威懾力所以你認為法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4619.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4647.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
公開播送你認同我覺得我們這個就是很好但是說你不支持的部分你有沒有替代方案這樣子的話才是我們想要的因為你認同我們真的覺得也很開心的但是說你有一些不認同的部分你有沒有什麼替代方案例如就是說我們的金華城就是金華城案民眾質疑檢察官徵訊不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4650.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4675.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
黨檢媒直接輸送就像檢察官在審查就直接到媒體了就用傳證記就過去了現行監督機制如何應對類似的爭議公開播送讓司法過程公開透明增進就是公信力你認為公開有哪裡不妥的地方我希望你就是提出替代方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4676.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4688.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
公開最大的問題就是因為一般民眾在提公開的時候大概會涉及到兩個面向一個就是俗稱的空中的交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4690.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4694.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我們有說 允許重大方案不是普遍的剛才你說法官也有選擇或者是我們的個案都有選擇這個是我們是台灣世界有民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4708.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4732.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
所以希望你提出更好的如果就是我們公開使檢察官與法官更謹慎行事未來你擔任到法官你認同法庭公開播送這個是我們覺得是找回民眾對司法的信任也是提升司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4733.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4747.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
威嚴啦 所以你是認同的嘛但是就是說好 這個部分我覺得你當大法官的時候 你看要怎麼樣去有一個更好的提出方案能有一個長一點的緩衝時間 我覺得這是更好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4750.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4773.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
台灣民眾黨主張從民事與行政的案件事辦法庭公開直播以徵地風險測試的可行性例如就是我們現在的金華城案以你的憲法與行政法的研究專家事辦是否能夠提升司法透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4774.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4782.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
就是核限就是現在符合的憲法原則你是否支持這樣子的事辦策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4783.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4806.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
第一個就是說其實法庭直播跟國民法官對我們國家來講司法都是一個很大的新制度的這個引進那國民法官的推動時間相對比較久不過國民法官一開始推動的時候所以你支持嗎事辦策略而已策略可以但是不能用細數的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4807.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4817.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
國民法官在試刑的時候是用以前已經確定判決的案件我們是說例如而已沒有說沒有結對因為我們在修法的過程中民進黨不斷的帶風向啊稱法庭公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4824.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4841.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
播送會讓司法變成就是公審秀場把人民看見的審理過程接近司法做了片面的還有負面的解讀當實際上判決書早就在網路就示意的解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4842.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4860.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
甚至曲解你不支持是還是因為有其他的方案不能說支持個案我們是例如而已所以我們是要增進民眾對司法的信任現在的司法任由就是不完整媒體敘述的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4862.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4882.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
誤導的大眾由非專業輿論的決定司法的形象不如讓公開就是才呈現完整的呈現由人民來判斷也還是認為你應該繼續讓說只讓外界只看到就是端端起義的片段你認為黨媒 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4885.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4913.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
當減沒一條龍的政策嗎若你沒有信任我們的人民那司法如何讓人民信任呢我們要的事就是那麼簡單所以希望說你要去好好就是為了這件事情來去做更好的準備當大法官一定要就是中立你樣子是做了是大法官的人民的大法官不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4915.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4935.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
黨減煤的大法官因為司法公開是全球的氣勢法庭公開播送不是新鮮事而是重建人民信任司法關鍵的一步若你真心支持司法更透明更貼近民意就應該支持民眾黨的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4935.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4961.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
推動司法並制定明確的規範我們期待你提出具體的建議協助法庭公開播送從寺院走向常態讓司法不再是黑箱讓人民真正成為監督者這個就是我們需要的大法官人民的大法官找回我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4967.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4967.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
賴瑞榮議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4997.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5025.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好謝謝院長請那個曾文生大法官被提名人麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授蕭抱歉蕭文生蕭教授您好我想先請教一下很多人說去年一整年大概是整個憲法最具有危機的一年也是憲法法庭最具有高度的風險的一年這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5027.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5055.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
教授同意這樣的看法嗎不好意思我沒有聽懂你的問題有很多人認為去年一整年是台灣的憲法最有危機的一年同時也是憲法法庭最有危機的一年那蕭教授同意這樣的看法嗎憲法法庭從去年應該是十月以後就沒辦法運作這個當然對於整個憲政秩序的維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5056.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5079.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
人民權利的保障當然是一個很大的一個影響這點我承認那憲法上呢因為去年大概也是有史以來最多的這個提出違憲的一些爭議的部分那很多人認為去年一整年是憲法上面最具有危機同時也最混亂的一年這個蕭教授同意這樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5079.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5092.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我想危機也是個轉機啦可以讓我們可以深刻去體驗我們這部憲法的強韌跟他的弱點那我也希望可以透過這樣的一個機會呢讓我們的憲法更好讓我們國家更好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5093.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5121.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好 那我順著這樣來講去年的時候其實憲法法庭有做了一個就是違憲的部分針對立法院所謂的擴權法案的部分很多條文都違憲不管是從包括聽取國刑報告包括反質詢包括同意權甚至於相關的部分我先請教一下蕭教授你都同意去年這一整年憲法法庭的這樣的一個看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5122.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5150.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
部分贊成部分可能跟我基本的想法不一樣那贊成跟不贊成可不可以請你也說明一下贊成的部分當然因為很多跟我們這個大法官的解釋一樣比如說對於立法院職權行使法有關於人事權的這個部分基本上沒什麼問題對所以你是贊成的這個基本上沒什麼問題那第二個部分就是說比較有爭議的當然就是國情報告的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5151.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5167.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我想國情報告是定在我們憲法徵求條文只是大家對於這個國情報告進行的方式到底是強制性的任意性的或者總統來有沒有必要接受這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5168.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5197.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
立法委员的我不敢讲质询因为总统依照我们宪法征求条文的规定是没有要向立法院负责但是类似备询或是国事会议的这个询问那统问统答这个方式呢大家有争议那这一点这个部分来讲因为即使是在宪法学界呢都有不同的意见那大法官呢是采取不能强制然后进行方式呢也没有所谓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5197.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5214.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那個質詢當然不用講備詢也不可以這是一派的講法所以這整體上面你覺得聽取總統國情報告這件事上面是沒有違憲總統如果願意來立法院聽取報告這是沒有任何問題的只是我剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5215.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5236.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
就既有的條文的話既有的執行刑事法上那當然是沒問題啦因為總統有這個主動被動都有他的權但是如果依照後來修訂過的話有些部分已經框進去了其他已經影響到了總統的權限包括行政立法間的均衡照憲法上 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5237.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5259.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
行政院是對立法院負責所以總統是來得來做報告那來不來包括怎麼來其實都是可以經由相關的溝通和協商這也要尊重總統的意願但是把某些部分明定在上面的時候這已經侵犯到憲法也侵犯到總統這也就是去年大法官會議認定違憲的地方我再請教一下蕭教授您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5261.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5284.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
強制性當然是不允許的因為有義務到立法院接受質詢的是因為行政院要對立法院負責所以強制總統來這個基本上可能在民主責任政治負責上面這個是在法律上是不允許的但是如果總統願意我強調是總統願意然後立法院也歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5286.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5312.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
甚至總統也願意接受立法院的提問那這個我覺得這是一個在憲政慣例上憲法沒有禁止我是說基於大家自願的情況之下這個憲法沒有禁止啊如果可以形成憲政慣例讓各個機關都可以良好的溝通這個我贊成只要不是用法律強制這個其實賴總統也講過他也願意來立法院啦齁但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5313.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5340.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
當藍白的國會多數用強制把這東西加在這個職權行使法上我認為其實這已經是違憲也就是說他已經侵犯到了總統的權利他的主動權跟他的一些意願這個已經侵犯到了所以我還是要強調我是認可去年這一條被認定為是違憲因為他已經侵犯到了憲法的相關的分工的權限同時間他也侵犯到總統個人的一些權利了 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5341.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5365.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這樣是擴權了這樣已經是超越了我們還在強調我們憲法的設計上面是行政院對立法院負責總統是由民選出來的總統可以到立法院來做國情的報告但是那個是基於他的主動跟他個人的意願但絕對不是透過職權新法的修法給予他一定的強制性我認為包括怎麼做怎麼做這個都超出了憲法的範圍所以我認為這個是違憲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5368.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5396.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
接下來我再請教一下其他的部分藐視國會罪的部分您怎麼看 有沒有違憲有關於藐視國會罪這個問題其實大家所比較熟知的藐視國會罪是美國但是我個人是這樣認為只要你是對立法院負責的立法院的質詢 立法院的調查基本上政府官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5398.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5417.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
質詢的時候就是首長那其他的官員就是備詢的時候基本上呢不管是在調查或是質詢的時候基本上應該到場這是第一個那當然有例外的規定比如說生病這可以請假這個沒有問題第二個呢至於台灣有沒有藐視國會的這個問題其實當初在585號解釋有對這個問題稍微做一點處理那我個人的立場是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5427.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5445.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們不必像美國那麼嚴格說藐視國會就是一個刑事責任這個我覺得太過因為刑法應該是最後的一個手段但是對於所謂的因為這個藐視國會還要定義比如說無故不來在質詢期間無故不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5447.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5467.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這個某種程度應該是沒有尊重自己也妨害了立法院這時候給適度的處罰是應該的但是這個處罰絕對不是刑事責任所以我蠻贊同這次大法官的解釋就是說把這種藐視國會的責任定在刑法這是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5469.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5495.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
但是我贊成什麼 我贊成適度的透過行政責任所以蕭教授其實也認為這個是違憲的行事責任是違憲的因為你有太多 如果是政務官他有政治責任要處理甚至於很多行政有行政責任可以處理但是你用刑法 更何況是這個部分的定義上其實並不存儲什麼叫做藐視國會 你的回答不如我意 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5496.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5514.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你頂我的嘴你回我的嘴那你不回答算不算藐視國會那你回答的內容你聲音稍微大聲一點算不算藐視國會大聲幾分貝叫做藐視國會就有太多模糊的空間其實會讓所有的行政官員更何況這個藐視國會還涉及到一般的人民藐視國會我的觀點只涉及所謂的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5521.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5547.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
一般人民不是用藐視國會因為一般人民不用對國會負責啊國會是邀請我來協助你們行使你們的職權啊那怎麼我來了還要被你處罰人民我是不贊成的是啊人民基本上沒有任何的他有什麼非得要到你立法院來接受你的對啊他有就是人民我們講人民還是所謂這個民主就是人民為主嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5548.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5574.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
哪有人民為主然後我還要被所以還出現很多對人民的這些處罰你司法上都還要有任何有罪才能夠對於給他處罰的立法院憑什麼因為人民不來或不做什麼就被你處罰這是完全所以我認為這個違憲是非常清楚的那我要順著剛剛問那反質詢的部分呢反質詢的部分所謂的禁止反質詢這個部分蕭教授的看法呢什麼是反質詢什麼樣的定義叫反質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5575.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5580.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
你認同用所謂的講反諮詢然後所找造成這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5582.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5605.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
因為質詢的定義在我們國家憲法裡面也沒有規定但是立法院有質詢之權行政院長各部會首長有應邀質詢的義務這個沒問題我想委員應該也是可以贊成的那現在最大的問題就是說因為質詢他基本上在法律沒有一個定義所以反質詢在法律上可能也 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5606.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5623.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
不容易明確所以大法官在解釋的過程裡面他是不是針對這個有沒有必要性我個人的看法是說他一開始就覺得這個定義違反法律明確性大法官也沒有直接的去說到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5624.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5643.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
可不可以處罰 而是說這個處罰訂的構成要件太不明確了實際上根本沒辦法執行所以它違反法律明確性違反法律明確性之後呢造成了立法院在行使職權的時候很容易逾越職權我覺得它最主要的原因是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5645.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5673.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
定的太不清楚了實際上沒有辦法執行它是基本上是以違反法律明確性作為它一個違憲的理由同時間違反明確性同時間我認為它對於權力分立上面有造成相當的因為行政立法其實當然這個立法院是在監督執行行政院但是也有相互尊重的關係那如果你所謂的這個反執行下去的話那什麼樣行政機關跟立法機關之間什麼樣的互動就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5674.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5698.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
比如說我現在跟這個蕭教授這邊這樣子我們是一個詢問詢問那怎麼樣在其他狀況下在立法院正式狀況下那是質詢跟官員之間質詢那你怎麼去認定怎麼去認定什麼樣的狀況下是反質詢甚至於有沒有可能因為這樣而導致的行政機關其實變成他沒辦法善加去比如說我禁止你講話我不准你講話或者是說你講的話這個內容部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5701.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5724.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
就是說他會讓很多的部分反倒不見得因為質詢的過程其實是讓國人更清楚所有事實的真相嘛你當然要讓行政機關官員能夠回覆你能夠說明你那如果你認為行政機關的人對你是嚴重的不禮貌或者是侵犯了那個那有政治責任要負責有行政責任要負責啊那人民也在究責啊人民也追究這些責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5724.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5744.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
對於任何的官員如果對待立委是不尊重的人民也會去救責就是說你把那個反諮詢把他硬抓進來這個恐怕不只是剛剛定義不明同時建議可能侵犯到行政立法間的相互權責會讓行政權大量被弱化掉這反倒不利於國家長遠的發展我不知道那個蕭教授同意這樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5747.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5756.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
有關於這個質詢的問題當然因為我沒有在會場但是我個人有一個基本的想法就是跟沿路免責權一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5758.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5780.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們中央的言論免責權是沒有限制的但是我想地方的言論免責權是要職務行使範圍內所以立法院的言論免責權在憲法並沒有這樣的一個規定但是我們地方制度法有所以我基本的想法是這樣質詢只要是在立法院行使職權範圍之內當然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5783.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5797.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
政府官員就有回答的義務但是如果這個質詢已經超過了你的職權行使範圍比如說私生活那這個我們當然不回啊不回也不會有什麼責任問題啊但是假設是在職權行使的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5799.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5813.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你不回答或是彼此之間有衝突當然剛剛委員講的是正確的政治責任政治責任是優先的那政治責任當然包括我對你做口頭譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5814.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5834.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我對你的預算不通過我對你所提的法案呢不通過這就是政治責任甚至立法委員可以透過自己問政因為我們現在資訊很公開嘛那我也常常在網路上看到立法委員剪輯了他在立法院的那個東西給人民看給人民做最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5835.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5864.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
裁決這是正確的其實有很多很多的方式有很多的究責方式但是如果你用所謂的反秩序這種方式你等於是讓雙方之間沒辦法有充分對話溝通的可能性的時候當如果行政官員過渡的時候不要說行政官員立委過渡的時候其實都會負起相關的政治責任相關政治責任也都會產生相關的行政責任人民也都在看人民也都會對於所屬的政黨跟所屬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5865.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5879.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個給予一定的壓力跟責任所以我認為這個其實你把它用這樣的反質詢反倒是我認為反倒是讓問題更加的複雜化而且是違憲的所以我想因為後面還有那個我就到這邊了那接下來我想請教的去年的部分才化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5880.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5902.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
藍白國會立法院多數通過了這個財務法3753億整個強行修到了放到地方去但是他沒有把錢放下去但是沒有把事權放下去那當然也造成中央的財務上面出了問題那我想請教一下對於這樣的部分當然因為後來大法官會已經沒辦法開了你認為這個部分有沒有違憲的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5904.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5926.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
有關於中央跟地方財政的收支依照我們憲法的規定這是屬於中央的權限就是中央跟地方的財政的劃分是中央的權限所以我們自古以來就有財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法在京省也就是民國八十八年做了最後一次修正以後到目前為止已經經過二十幾年沒有修正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5927.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5947.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以我覺得修正應該是有必要的只是這個內容到底應該怎麼修正才可以但是修正如果沒有經過行政機關的同意而直接就用立法院的多數的暴力表決方式直接表決掉了直接撥出去3700多億錢分下去的事權沒有分下去這個難道沒有侵犯到行政權嗎立法院在制定法案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5948.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5966.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
通常可以請行政院來表示意見但是我好像沒有在立法程序裡面聽說要得到但是財政收支劃分國家的財政這屬於行政權的一部分國家財政這件事情是屬於行政權的一部分包括總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5967.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5984.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
包括財政這個都是屬於行政權的一部分如果立法權可以透過立法院的多數強行的表決強行不尊重行政權的話這個有沒有侵犯到行政憲法上有沒有侵犯到行政權的問題我想制定法律應該是立法院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5986.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6010.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
財政收支劃分法我們今天講的是財政收支劃分法不是說中央要把這個預算的時候把錢編給誰那如果單純以財政收支劃分法這個法律的話這應該基本上是屬於立法院的權限當然要做的讓那個法律更好除了立法院黨團大家要認真討論協商之外邀請相關的院 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6012.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6035.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
邀請相關的院列席尤其是在委員會的時候列席說明他的立場這個一向是立法院向來的慣例所以我想這個可能我還是要再提醒因為如果照這樣的論點的話那有可能他會讓整個行政機關的權限算大一下我還是要提醒預算權是行政機關的重要的權限要不然為什麼要選出 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6036.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6054.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
總統而任命行政院長為什麼立法跟行政這些相互監督如果照這樣的處理的話這已經傾向於你講的內閣制的精神了那如果內閣制當然就沒有問題但是我們處的不是一個內閣制的精神如果你把行政權用這樣的方式可以整個把財政可以劃分掉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6055.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6080.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那基本上立法院可以決定行政機關做任何的事我讓你做什麼我不讓你做什麼這會造成責任政治不清楚到底這件事情比如劃出去之後中央沒有錢不能做這件事情的時候這個責任算誰的要追究的是行政機關的責任還是追究的是立法院的責任會完全不清楚我認為這件事情蕭教授可能要再清楚的說明不然這可能會造成社會很大的問題預算的這個制度呢總共可以分成四道程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6081.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6102.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
第一道就是總預算的提出,這個當然是行政院的權限甚至如果我記得沒錯,立法院的預算案也要併到行政院的總預算案所以預算案的提出一定是行政院的職權,這我們憲法有規定但是預算的審議這件事情來講,這是立法院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6103.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6129.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以立法院是可以審議的但是預算的編列跟增加與否這個是由行政機關的權限嘛所以我認為這個部分從預算的提出當然是行政院的權限負責人也是行政院負責嘛預算權當然是行政院在做負責嘛對不起我剛剛還沒講完前面是兩道第三道就是預算執行這是各個機關各個院的權限也就是說你拿到法定預算之後怎麼執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6130.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6157.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
立法院自己決定 行政院自己去決定最後一個也是很重要的 就是審計審計的制度呢 依照我們的設計 三個機關介入立法院 行政院提出 然後呢 審計部 局長 法院這我了解了 最後一個 剩一分鐘我再問一下 最後一個啦去年一整年 因為大法官不足因為憲法 訴訟法修改 一定要十個人才能做成決定之後整個憲法法庭幾乎被癱瘓掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6159.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6172.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你認為這個部分有沒有涉及到違憲實施癱瘓掉行政大法官會議的問題讓憲法法令整個被癱瘓掉的問題這有沒有違憲如果就我們的制度來講我們本來大法官是15個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6173.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6195.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以法定名額跟現有名額如果一致的話這個規定沒有問題因為我們本來就是三分之二那現行中央有沒有違憲如果這次一樣全部不通過那一樣是無法做成決議嗎所以我的意思就是說原則上這個規定在現有原額跟法定總額一樣的時候運作沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6196.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6216.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
但是呢 如果在例外的情況下 蕭教授 有沒有違憲 這樣的處理方式直接限縮了一定要十個人才能做決議 這件事有沒有違憲所以我的意思是說 如果在例外情形讓他這個嚴格的規定 讓大法官沒有辦法運作那這個呢 要增設例外規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6219.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6244.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那你同意可以來作戰一樣無法通過沒有人去做可以來實施大法院只會來召開做成實現這個每一個國家規定不一樣因為有些國家它有司法的制度我們國家一向大法官的程序都是立法院制定的這個跟其他國家最高司法居然強有自己的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6247.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6273.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝我們賴瑞榮委員的詢問也謝謝我們蕭教授的說明 謝謝好 我們接下來請登記第四號第四位翁曉琳委員請詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6276.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6304.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
陳金威委員請準備院長好這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6311.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6331.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好委員好是蕭貝廷議員好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6332.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6347.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
的這個候選人那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6347.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6361.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6363.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6391.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6393.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6418.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括這個行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6419.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6442.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6443.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6468.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6469.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6490.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個附議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6494.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6507.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
憲法上兩種不同的設計那附議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事先我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個附議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6509.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6527.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復议大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復议的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復议要總統跟行政院同意才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6528.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6544.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6546.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6570.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6572.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6579.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6581.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6606.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6607.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6632.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
而且更夸张的是大法官还受理了所以就是说从宪法法庭的角度我们明明看到了现在存在这样的一个宪政的问题就是政府机关会用拿这个视线当成一个他们政治对抗的手段但是我们绝对不希望看到宪法法庭变成是一个政治恶斗的底下的一个工具而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6632.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6637.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
首先就有關於立法院提起釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6659.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6664.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6665.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6694.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6696.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6716.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6717.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6743.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那當然啦 因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6744.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6766.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我想任憑誰都可以看得出來這大法官明顯的心正為什麼這麼說呢因為過去我們認為說這個少數立委提起這個釋憲他必須是從早期這個可能一開始是必須要投下反對票而且呢還要等到他是不是有之後曾經有再提出修法案修法案衛國 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6766.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6793.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说啊你们明明知道我们在这边抗议 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6794.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6812.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於腐爛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6815.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6837.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6838.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6867.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在立法憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6868.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6889.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6893.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6911.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6911.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6925.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6931.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6959.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
辦更重要的事情要去做更重要解釋的一個空間那接下來我要談的就是說因為剛剛前面的委員們有提到有關於這次的憲法訴訟法的修法那麼將憲法法庭的評決門檻還有做成違憲的判決的門檻都提高那麼您認為這是不是屬於立法形成自由有關於最高司法機關的程序的權利那目前來講全世界分成兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6960.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6980.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6981.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7004.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7006.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7027.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
包含司法院以及少數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7028.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7048.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
形成的空间要给立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的这样的一个裁量的权利那么接下来本席再请教就是说因为在去年宪法法庭连续做了两件引起社会舆论哗然的判决一个就是反FACE113 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7049.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7050.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我要先講哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7071.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7098.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7099.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7124.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7125.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7143.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
是 本先生在那邊提醒你不僅是美國 日本 法國 德國都有科處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要要去科處這個鳥食不會醉的刑事責任那對於刑事處罰呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7146.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7146.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
在585號解釋裡面對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7166.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7180.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7180.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7190.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰還對 但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7197.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7221.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
是我不知道就說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的構成要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7222.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7238.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7240.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7261.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7268.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7292.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但是大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7293.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7312.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7313.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7333.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較抽象的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院真的要處罰我們還要經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關這個認為哪個人民他這個像我們最近報稅如果有報稅不實立刻就處罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7339.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7343.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們在立法院我們要去處罰一個政府官員有類似像這樣違法事實的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7344.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7372.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚已经说了假设我们立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7373.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7397.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
還要繼續去推動處罰藐視國會的這樣子一個條文您認為會違憲嗎您曾經在20多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的這個拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7399.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7414.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7416.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7437.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
首先就是有關於這個有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7438.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7448.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7449.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7473.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那這個當然有拘束力啊如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題啊所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7473.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7491.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
他也要與時俱進啊能夠跟呃民意而做呃就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充啊修正的這樣的一個一個機制所以呢而立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7492.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7514.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的 是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭宣告違憲這應該不夠重違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7528.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7534.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7550.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7573.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好謝謝我們現在接下來登記第六號陳金威委員請質詢請說明請詢問然後何新淳委員請準備好更正登記第五位賴會員委員質詢問以書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來我們請六號陳金威委員請詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7576.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7580.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
主席你好我想請蕭教授謝謝蕭教授你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7591.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7619.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7620.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7644.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授 主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7647.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7664.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7668.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7694.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7696.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7714.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定它有兩個機關可以一復懲戒一個是醫師公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7715.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7738.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7739.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7760.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7762.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7784.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7785.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7814.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7815.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7844.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢喔才被移送懲戒的狼藝喔還有很多是在這個台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7845.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7867.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7869.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7895.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那這個案子如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中溯源會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副醫長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說醫師公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用我抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7897.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7899.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7901.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7929.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
他沒有辦法去讓他的醫師因為懲戒的手段很多他沒有辦法讓他上司醫師的資格證書但是他可以暫時讓他業務他可以停止他執行比如說一年三年所以假設是現在這個問題的話我覺得不一定因為你要醫師懲戒的話要送到那個醫師懲戒委員會那醫師懲戒委員會又耗時耗力啊我覺得這個方式不一定是正確的反而是應該在 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7931.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7942.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7949.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7975.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7976.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7997.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那我如果記得沒錯的話啦我會再去調查但惠福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7997.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8014.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8016.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8035.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛黃委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8037.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8060.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有例外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8060.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8077.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職啦 卸職啦沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8080.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8099.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8101.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8123.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
但是如果是一般的醫師的話那另外可以參考的就是教師法就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會再下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8126.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8150.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8154.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8172.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統這個問題妳就撒不清楚主席我今天問的問題這只是百分之一欸主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說它初始的本意是這樣的設計對 您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各支法授權的範圍內我們可不可以完全的確認這叫做暫緩公平的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8176.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8188.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
主卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條主卻了我們要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的這條是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會主卻這一種行為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8192.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8210.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
你不敢講 以前是法務部 現在我想我們來問國發會國發會有人來嗎 現在是什麼這麼簡單的問題 整個政府沒辦的人 我就靠聽這麼簡單的問題 這麼做到保釣處長副署長會沒辦的 我就回答你現在是在爭笑喔八位我想那個 前面 以前是這樣子啦齁 那我想未來我們一定來齁 把他處理這句話我已經聽過齁 很久很久很久了欸啦 我認真做案什麼認真做案 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8214.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8234.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
主席我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家親善公公都什麼都不知道,阿也說白痴又搞不清楚我跟你們說,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你們搞不清楚這樣你們做保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8235.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8249.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我們很清楚好那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有執照的嗎不是大聲大聲就好你這個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚你你 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8251.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8261.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
現在是怎樣 自己搞不清楚 你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊 哪裡很清楚以前就是因為公司法的問題 如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊 我就是問你啊 我就是問你檢討什麼 我用什麼你現在是在做什麼 你現在是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8267.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8273.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
大法官提名您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8296.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8316.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8317.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8340.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
沒有什麼特別的問題至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8341.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8363.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8364.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8393.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8395.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8423.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8425.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8449.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8450.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8470.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去當醫師那也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8473.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8494.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我也有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀很會開刀之外我當然也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8495.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8522.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8523.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8540.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8542.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8571.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8572.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8596.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理 數級形式等等被懲戒接落的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8596.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8614.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8615.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8636.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8638.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8639.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們不能說全有跟全無啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8648.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8672.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8673.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8700.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說您意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是您一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8701.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8720.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
指引到其他的工會去看嗎 還是怎麼樣不是 他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒 他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料 那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8721.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8740.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8743.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8759.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8761.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8789.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8790.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8792.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8820.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8844.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好接下來我們請登記第七號本院核心村委員詢問好謝謝院長我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8850.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8875.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好 委員好蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8876.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8894.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8896.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8914.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為大法官不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8914.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8942.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
而且能夠與時俱進所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8942.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8957.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好 謝謝謝謝委員提問首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8958.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8987.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個輔助性的決定性的工具還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的教育背景當然會有特定的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8989.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9005.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9006.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9022.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9023.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9042.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9043.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9067.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
你贊成吧 是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9068.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9091.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的視線都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9096.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9116.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
對司法對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做我們與惡的距離你有看過這一齣戲嗎很抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9118.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9120.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我為什麼會提起這一齣戲這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9138.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9163.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果照這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9164.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9183.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9184.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9204.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強要讓一般人聽得懂而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤 二心村盤 三心地下彌生 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9205.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9224.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9228.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9257.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9258.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9272.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9273.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9289.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9290.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9303.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9306.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9321.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9322.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9337.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9338.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9367.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9369.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9373.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9390.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9401.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是 我覺得因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9404.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9427.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有間接民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9428.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9455.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9457.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9472.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9473.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9495.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9496.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9521.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今天五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9522.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9541.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9543.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9568.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9570.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9589.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9592.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9603.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9610.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9637.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說他不會有例外規定他就全部都到齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9638.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9657.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9658.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9678.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9679.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9693.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的基金跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9695.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9714.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9717.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9732.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9733.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9750.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所以你會建議 如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議 如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲 那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9752.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9770.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9771.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9789.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9790.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9809.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9810.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9831.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的 全部推翻所以你在未來憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9832.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9849.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你剛剛講的要能夠開得成如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9851.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9880.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9881.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9907.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢 限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診 跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢 醫生就沒開藥給你吃 沒有藥方人民是現在看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬書出問題但是沒有給我解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9908.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9917.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
沒有不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9918.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9940.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個梭理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待不僅僅是梭理梭理完之後要有解方要明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9942.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9959.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9960.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9984.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛委員所講的你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9985.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10011.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善謝謝是啊所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10012.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10032.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
的這個問題事件的一個案件的能夠來尋找出一個說你的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠呢有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10033.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10054.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10060.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10088.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝何新淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人蕭文森教授的說明報告全院委員會我們針對大法官被提名人蕭文森教授的詢答部分到此為止我們非常感謝被提名人今天列席答詢現在我們休息十分鐘休息之後進行大法官被提名人鄭淳慧法官之詢問現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10675.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10688.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
報告全院委員會,我們現在繼續開會,進行審查大法官被提名人鄭純惠法官之資格是否私認相關事項。我們現在首先請鄭純惠法官請說明時間10分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10705.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10720.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家好 我是鄭淳慧今天帶著嚴肅的心情 以大法官被庭人的身分在這裡接受委員們的提問審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10722.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10751.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
有關我個人的血經歷以及專長裁判等請參見先前提出的問卷以及相關資料這些詳細的書面資料應該可以供委員們審查及評斷被庭人的法律專頁憲法訴訟制度的運作攸關國家憲政秩序的維護人民基本權利的保障參與裁判行程的大法官責任重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10752.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10781.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
代表民意的立法院對於大法官被提名人的審查除了專業能力更關心被提名人對大法官職責的理解以及依法獨立審判的態度是所當然因此我就從我如何形成司法審判相關理念的過程說明我對於大法官職責的理解以及依法獨立審判的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10783.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10810.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我是張化仁因為父親工作的關係在我小學的時候全家搬到台北家中的經濟雖然不好父母親總是教我們要為人本分專心讀書父親對於子女的選擇秉持著尊重開放的態度給我們充分的自由我的母親是個細心睿智的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10811.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10839.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
常常提醒我們要舉止得宜勇於認識因為有他的鼓勵我才能夠在艱困的環境中持續追求夢想到今天站在這裡我的求學過程平順就讀北一女時有幸遇到許多熱愛人文志同道合的同學相約報考法律系在台大法律系就讀期間因為受到李鴻熙教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10841.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10865.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
傳達民主自由憲政的理念以及蔡敦明教授闡述無罪推定等刑法原則的啟發開始思索民主與基本人權等問題後來聆聽王澤健教授分析民事法的體系概念以及邱蓮功教授講授當事人程序權保障的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10867.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10891.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
更引起我對於民事審判與程序的研究興趣也讓我學習到用簡明的圖表精確的解說複雜的法律概念在後來從事審判事務工作時能夠在訴訟上具體實踐當事人程序權的保障做成可以獲得當事人信賴的公正裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10893.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10913.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
在塔達法律研究所師承柯澤東教授研究當事人自主解決紛爭的仲裁制度在處事哲學及專業法學上都獲益良多恩師們的教誨跟薰陶深深地影響我對於審判工作的理念跟態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10915.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10941.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
大學畢業後當年十月間法制人員高考及格因為考慮家中經濟隨即一分發到法務部法律事務司工作同年底律師高考及格隔年司法官考試及格在法務部法律事務司期間負責法令的詮釋跟法案修正的幕僚工作開始接觸司法實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10944.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10965.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
陳碧蓮司長對於司法工作認真而且嚴謹因為她的因應期許讓我決定進入司法界從事審判事務工作八十年六月司法官二十八期結業分發到台灣台北地方法院派到刑事庭庭長黃文鑾 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10967.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10995.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
堅守獨立審判的理念辦案公正積極他的耐心指正讓我在從事審判工作的開始就建立了公正嚴謹的辦案態度遵守正當法律程序並且兼顧被告被害人的人權維護後來調任法務部司法官訓練所的民事組導師再回任台北地院民事庭法官兼庭長 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10997.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11023.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這段期間曾經就國泰世華銀行在新店新建員工宿舍所產生的多件紛爭進行調解以中立持平的態度傾聽當事人的意見盡力促成雙方溝通尋求可接受的解決方案經過一年多的反覆協調最後調解成立兩百多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11024.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11045.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
平衡了當事人間的實體跟程序權益避免無止境的送累之後歷經台灣高等法院的法官庭長最高法院的民事庭法官持續辦理民事審判事務至今已經超過30年一路走來 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11046.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11075.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
沒有偏見的傾聽最大與最小的聲音公平對待一併考量依法獨立審判早就是深植在我心中的工作準則在任職法官期間基於教學的熱忱在中原大學文化大學法律系兼任講授民事訴訟法課程並且擔任法務部司法官學院民事組的講座兼召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11077.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11100.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
另外在法官學院講授民事法律實務課程透過審判經驗的傳承確立訴訟權的保障跟公正審判的正確觀念調任最高法院的法官後廳長陳國珍也不時提醒法律審除了應該要確保裁判法律適用的正確跟嚴謹性 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11102.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11118.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
也應該要從普羅大眾的角度去檢視裁判的妥當性盡用終審法院裁判的評議並參與學術研討會的磨練更強化了我的法學論述能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11120.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11137.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
期間曾經參與最高法院第1、2、3屆的民事大法庭本於獨立審判跟自我負責的態度提出多件不同意見書例如最近造成各地方法院民事執行處重大負擔的人壽保險解約金的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11139.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11165.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我就從財產權跟人格權保障者衝突與限制的觀點獨排眾議採取否定的見解提出不同意見書最近保險法部分條文已經修正明文限縮人壽保險契約解約金的強制執行範圍也可以具體化減少保險執行案件的數量減輕法院執行的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11167.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11176.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
由於在最高法院期間的歷練使我更能適切地去運用法律解釋原則跟表述憲法保障基本人權的重要意涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11178.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11202.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
對我而言 法官依法審判這件事情不是所謂理念的陰然而是這幾十年來透過我的家庭教育學校教育的養成經過實務上一件件的個案裁判日積月累自然形成的深層內化而且確實履行的時然 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11204.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11221.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
上萬件的裁判也是我對於依法獨立審判態度與履行最真實的記錄最近常有人問我在這個時刻為什麼會接受大法官的提名與推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11222.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11243.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
首先我認為被推薦進而被提名代表對於所有長期默默辦理審判工作的法官給予最大的信任與肯定畢竟司法過勞是眾所周知的事能夠長期辦理審判並堅持辦好每一件案件並不是件容易的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11245.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11259.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
其次就是基於法律人根深蒂固的使命感在可能的範圍內為成長所在的這片土地盡自己的能力維護民主法治是無可推辭的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11261.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11283.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
如果我能獲得信任成為憲法法庭的成員必定堅守一路走來的依法獨立公正審判的態度共同承擔守護憲法的責任為維護自由民主憲政秩序及成就人民信賴的司法全力以赴謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11289.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11317.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
謝謝鄭成慧法官的說明現在我們開始要進行被提名人的詢答首先我們要請黃珊珊委員請詢問主席我請鄭法官麻煩請被提名人鄭法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11318.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11318.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11330.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11350.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我想這是您被提名之後第一次在立法院尋答我想因為在法界大家對您都算首席從刑事庭到民事庭到現在在大法庭我想過程裡面您剛所說的有一個很重要的事情就是強制執行撤銷了保險契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11352.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11365.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
讓債權可以撤銷債務人的保險契約讓執行法院可以直接執行從112年12月9號這個裁定出來之後造成了全國大混亂您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11369.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11389.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
整個地方法院翻天覆地而且全國有幾十萬件相關的保單被撤銷弄到我很佩服你當時寫了不同意的意見書所以你的意見是說執行法院沒有法律的授權是不可以介入所謂的債務人跟第三者的契約 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11391.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11412.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我的基本的態度是這樣,債權是平等的所以欠債要還錢,可是你的債權沒有比我的債權更大嘛更優先,否則的話你可能進一步難道可以去終止別人的工程款或租賃企業嗎可是你的意見沒有變成大家的意見所以最高法院做出了那個把 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11413.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11438.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
債權人的權利無限上綱到可以侵害到債務人或其他第三人的權益尤其是受益人跟被保險人這兩個人受到的影響不比要保人少而且甚至更多尤其是爸爸媽媽買保險的小孩突然間他的保障沒有了這才是問題所以我想問說您在寫完這個之後您有做過哪些努力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11440.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11462.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
還是就沒辦法他們這樣裁定就算了你知道現在立法院已經修法了嗎對我知道但是因為我是一個法官只能在我審判的範圍內去表達我的意見那因為大法庭的多數見解出來之後我覺得你接下來要做的是大法官大法官就不是只有表示意見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11463.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11488.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
大法官是要引領國家制度的進步大法官是要捍衛國家的公平跟正義如果這件事情如果假設他進到憲法法庭你會做什麼決定跟你原來的主張一樣嗎對我原來的主張我是會支持的如果可能的話你還會去說服其他的人來支持你的見解嗎我想這個我也努力過 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11489.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11515.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
也會努力我覺得至少來說服立法委員接受你的見解我們也可以協助修法所以重點當法官當然法官不予但是如果要當大法官將來可能不只是自己寫完就算了尤其不同意見書寫出來之後我認為還要更積極的去說服其他的大法官甚至來說服立法院不然中華民國不可能同婚合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11516.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11527.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
你懂我的意思嗎好 謝謝委員好 所以你也要有這樣的野心跟魄力你寫了這麼多不同意見書但沒有成為主流意見我覺得當一個大法官可能要更積極一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11529.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11557.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好接下來是這是我在找您的資料裡面很努力的找到您的資料不多但是我看到這個資料今天要好好的來跟政法官請教這是25年前民國89年您在台北地方法院當民事庭長的時候當時的台北地檢署檢察長黃世民曾經因為台北地院沒有羈押一個台開案的被告講了一句 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11558.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11586.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
法官對有錢有勢的人就不敢羈押所以弄得台北地方法院將近30個法官站出來發了聲明而且是由鄭純惠庭長出面代表說明這個是你當年的新聞你還記得這件事嗎是這個標題非常非常的明確叫做不自白就生起羈押這是錯的今天中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11588.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11604.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
司法改革喊了幾十年我們也開過司改國是會議我們也修了相關的刑事訴訟法25年前的您的呼籲今天來看依然是個問題我先講一下您當時的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11605.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11633.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
第一個社會跟司法制度的設計是要求法院扮演超然中立的裁判者角色在打擊犯罪的同時要兼顧人權的保障絕對不容許法院不問證據配合一方當事人檢察官的要求定被告的罪政法官這依然是你現在的主張嗎就是法官不可以因為不問證據就配合檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11634.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11663.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
需求定被告的罪你還講一句羈押是保全被告保全證據的最後手段羈押被告法律上有極嚴格的條件要避免依法依無罪推定的人受到重大的傷害檢察長這樣檢察長公開提出的申請羈押的被駁回然後就說法院不敢押有錢人的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11664.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11692.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
您的建議是請檢察官多提升科學辦案的技巧善盡舉證的責任減少對被告自白的過度依賴尤其不可以用不自白就申請羈押的取共手段政法官25年前的話今天拿來台灣現在的中華民國司法現狀依然適用您覺不覺得很可悲 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11694.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11715.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我覺得就是我目前是沒有在刑事審判的工作但你每天看到的新聞有沒有這樣的事情發生我覺得這個我的理念是沒有改變那具體的情況就要看這也是我們所有法律人在學校剛剛講那麼多老師從蔡德銘老師所有老師教的都是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11716.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11740.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我也是台大法律系我們的老師一樣我們的法感應該是一樣的所以這是我們這個年代的人共同的價值我想這也是你繼續的價值這些話留到現在的中華民國依然適用我覺得非常的悲哀而且已經25年了25年來這個過程我們修了相關的刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11741.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11769.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
檢察官不可以用任何不正詢問的方式不可以用強暴脅迫利誘甚至詐欺最重要的是不可以疲勞詢問對吧疲勞詢問是什麼夜間不得詢問除非當事人同意可是幾乎當事人都會同意因為他想趕快回家所以我們的制度有規定但是現實沒有辦法履行25年前這樣的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11771.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11796.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
如果相關的個案我們當然不談個案但是羈押是保全被告保全證據的最後手段這也是在保障人權跟發現真實您認為發現真實重要還是保障人權重要我想這個本來就是一個權衡要找到平衡點發現真實不該侵害人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11797.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11826.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
發現真實本來就應該用科學辦案去蒐集證據而不是押人取供現在的問題是您講的不自白就生壓是現在所有檢查體系做的事情包括很簡單最近為什麼大家看到司法這麼不受信任我們都知道中華民國所有的民眾對法院的信任對司法的信任不滿一度超過七成相信的相信的 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11827.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11841.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
滿意的不到三成這個錯已經很久了但是一直改不過來為什麼你認為司法不受人民信任最重要的原因是什麼最大的因素是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11843.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11868.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我覺得有一部分是司法的本質就是他不一定會被大家人所接受因為但是剛剛就像前面的蕭教授說的應該有一半的人贊成啊因為在法庭有一半的人是勝訴的另外一半的高興就算了連一半的贏的人他也不是不滿意啊為什麼他可能也認為在程序上面受到了不正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11871.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11892.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
參與訴訟的人應該不會到都不會滿意 進衙門都不會滿意的好 我認為啦司法 因為我們從事法律這麼多年我覺得最大的問題是標準不一對剛剛黃世民講的沒有錯啊台灣人的腦袋裡面就是有錢判生沒錢判死啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11893.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11915.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
台灣人很多人覺得有關係就沒關係啊沒關係才會有關係啊甚至很多人是認為說司法黃牛這些人要走後門然後甚至有很多很多的人在看到了不同的新聞之後做了不同的標準才產生了對司法的不信任講個最簡單的例子最近發生台中的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11917.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11942.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
過了幾天發現他們家好像被詐騙了才現在去開官驗屍如果你是法官你是檢察官你會不會覺得這是有點離譜而且那個可能是詐騙的共犯15萬元交保另外一個個案有人做了圖說要去對檢察官不利做了梗圖這些人收押進鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11944.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11951.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
法官你認為我們的比例原則還有所謂的積壓條件是出了什麼問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11954.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11982.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個部分我就不做具體評論但是我想講我的理念就是審判工作在程序上一定要就是嚴守正當法律程序那至於這樣的結果最後做出來的實體裁判是可受公平可受公平但是沒有辦法得到人民的信任現在人民的感覺是檢察官的面子高過人民的性命檢察官的面子 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11983.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11997.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
去把檢察官照片貼一貼的人要收押進鑑另外只能五個人把它當成一般刑事案件詐欺案件不重要命案沒有關係這才是台灣人最大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11999.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12019.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
標準不一是司法不信任的最大的原因所以我想再問你一下這個案子你今天我拿出來的這份東西我認為啦應該是你相關的司法審判實務裡面的資歷裡面最重要的一項很可惜沒有在你今天的報告跟你的簡歷裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12021.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12040.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
如果這個價值是你當大法官繼續堅持的價值我相信我們很多的委員會願意支持但是現在中華民國就碰到了很大的問題我們的檢查體系只有一個手段叫做不自白就羈押不自白就羈押是你反對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12041.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12058.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你認為它是錯誤的可是我們現在每一天不管看哪個社會新聞都看得到這才是我們今天碰到最大的問題所以我想問一下您當大法官之後對於羈押的要件還有相關的這些程序規範您認為現在還有哪些可以改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12062.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12087.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
是說關於羈押的要件羈押的程序的問題這個程序的問題因為現在是刑事訴訟我不具體講但是我要講的就是說再怎麼樣明確其實都可能有台兩地所以這個部分就是要看檢察官的良心還有法院的道德勇氣現在是法院有沒有道德勇氣像你們當年一樣可以把這個案子駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12088.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12102.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
然後更簡單講你要好好去找證據不要只是把責任推給法院讓法院來幫你幫你做定罪的人這才是問題這邊旁邊最重要的是我還是要請您記得這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12105.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12126.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
你說檢察官應該提升科學辦案的技巧善盡舉證的責任減少對被告自白的過度依賴尤其不可以用不自白就申請羈押為取共的手段所有的人被申請羈押他絕對是非常非常的驚恐所以才會有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12128.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12154.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
該認的罪也認罪不該做的自白也自白造成非常非常多可能接下來的冤獄我希望這件事情您的價值繼續能夠堅持好第二個部分我想問一下身為女性還有剛剛講的受刑人現在有一個會在憲法法庭可能會受理的案子你認為受刑人是不是應該受到憲法人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12157.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12161.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
受刑人除了他自由被限制之外他還有沒有基本的人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12162.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12188.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這個到法官會議解釋已經有非常清楚闡述過了就是說除了他被羈押同時連帶的那個之外其他的憲法上的權利我現在給政法官看兩封信這兩封信是受刑人他們作業在裡面要做一些工作這個作業裡面非常清楚這個受刑人寫的信是說他是現代版的奴隸制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12189.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12207.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
旁邊這封信說他們每天為私營企業拼命工作卻連維持日常生活所需都無能為力只能在裡面巴結老大奉承有錢有勢的人最後受使人學到的是有錢真好有錢就好不在乎是非對錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12208.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12228.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
只想出去再繼續幹一票更大的接下去這個案子應該會在憲法法庭審議也就是他們每天都很認真的在工作但是他們一個月大概是五百、六百塊的工作費法官你覺得六百塊一個月是合理還是不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12230.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12247.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
對於這個事情就是說這件書信啊其實就是就法官的立場就是我一定要看到全部的資料所以我沒有問你別的我只問你一個月六百塊工作費你覺得合不合理六百塊一個月不是一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12250.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12268.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
監察院就證過了正常在裡面大概要1000塊到3000塊的基本買一些日用品什麼的費用大概是3000塊然後我們做了那些手作啊蛋糕啊什麼的大概一個月是600塊這是一個工作權還是一個基本人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12270.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12292.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這是一個說是工作權嗎這個工作權應該是她是有在工作只是她工作的內容她的這樣的報酬我只是要問說您對於她們有基本人權我覺得這個還是要捍衛好做基本的調查接下去是身為女性我想有兩個問題要問你第一個性別平權跟傳統優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12294.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12320.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
大法官會議解釋曾經針對台灣特有的叫做祭司工業做過相關的解釋那祭司工業我想也是民事體裡面常常碰到的案子那裡面很清楚以前都是傳統以來就是男性才是繼承人但是民法在我們立法的時候早就已經是一律平等包括婚姻包括繼承所以祭司工業等於是在民法之外的一個特殊狀況多年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12323.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12338.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
以前都是男性優先後來立法之後把有規約的還是繼續依規約沒有規約的用男性的部分大法官認為違憲所以廢掉了現在剩下的就是有規約的還是繼續有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12343.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12358.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
黃昭元大法官在裡面做了解釋做了一個非常非常生動的解釋他說憲法法庭只處理了條明文排除女性的真小人而沒有處理以尊重司法自治為名實質排除女性繼承權的偽君子 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12361.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12387.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們的憲法法庭之前做了這個違憲審查違德不足做了一半所以我想問一下政法官你認為就算有規約的我們是不是也應該慢慢的讓它回歸正軌讓慢慢的讓它回到性別平權就這部分就是隨著時代的進步性別平權本來就應該越來越重視的時候這部分確實是需要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12389.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12406.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
對 也就是說以前不會有同婚以前不會有這些男女平等的討論以前連女生都不能投票的現在這樣的狀況我們要改正如果這個案子可能的話我也希望您在憲法法庭要表達自己的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12407.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12434.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
同樣的勇敢的像你剛剛講的那些不同意意見書一樣第二個部分也是我們立法院一直在討論的有關代理孕母代理孕母是賴清德總統他在當院長當立委的時候的倡議而且他領銜提案憲法也規定民眾享有結婚自由跟自由組成家庭的自由權另外還有所謂的憲法第七條不應有差別待遇的平等權 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12435.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12464.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
但是現在的問題在於我們現在的衛福部說有爭議所以擺著所以我想政法官也很清楚我們的民法曾經因為憲法把你解釋說因為民法沒有提供同婚登記的制度所以違憲沒有提供這樣的機會所以違憲我現在要說的是我們的人工生殖法或相關的法律沒有提供代理孕母的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12466.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12486.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
是不是可能違憲就這個問題我有在那個書面的部分有做答覆也就是說他是不是應該要允許 至少沒有給我這個選擇就像這個賴清德說的連借卵借精都可以的為什麼沒有代理孕母連選擇的機會都沒有所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12488.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12512.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
案子這個制度如果我們的法律沒有提供給需要的民眾這樣的選擇權其實比照民法有關同婚的部分他也應該是違憲的請你書面回答我我想對你在書面回答我最後我想問一下有關大家你們進到假如你們回到憲法法庭可能會碰到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12514.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12531.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
立法院不可以增加預算但是立法院的法律案你認為法律案是預算嗎這個部分我在書面裡面也有提到就是說這個雖然不是我的專長但是就我的初步的理解我覺得法律案當然從名稱上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12540.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12552.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
謝謝黃珊珊委員的詢問也謝謝我們政法官的說明報告全院委員會我們上午的會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續委員的詢問現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
14260.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
14264.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
14303.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
14304.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
14484.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
14487.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
14746.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
14746.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
16857.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
16858.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
17184.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
17184.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
18087.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
18088.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
18986.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
18987.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
19281.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
19282.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
21593.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
21598.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
報導協議委員會 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請伍麗華委員詢問謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
21634.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
21650.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
21651.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
21672.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
21673.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
21699.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
高雄公專 女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中 高雄公專 屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
21700.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
21722.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
21724.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
21746.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
21748.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
21764.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
21769.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
21790.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
21795.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
21796.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
像今年二月 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
21811.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
21833.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
21834.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
21863.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
21863.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
21891.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權利都讓不給他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
21892.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
21909.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以雖然名字是我的但是實際上這筆土地已經是對方的所以我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
21911.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
21933.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
非原住民以借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
21934.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
21949.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
21950.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
21968.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
21969.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
21997.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
21999.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
22000.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以呢 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
22001.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
22030.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得当提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第71条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
22031.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
22044.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
22046.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
22074.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在4年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
22075.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
22098.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果將您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
22100.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
22124.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
22126.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
22137.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
22139.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
22157.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
22158.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
22183.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以像原保地它是開發辦法這樣的法律位階它其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項它所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
22184.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
22212.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣子一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
22212.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
22227.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
22229.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
22246.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
22248.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
22273.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
22274.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
22300.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好 謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
22303.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22332.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第1項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22333.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22353.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域化色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22354.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22380.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22381.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22405.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的話設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22406.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22410.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22412.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22442.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22442.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22442.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那是否都應該要參考這個見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22460.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22476.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22477.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
22502.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
22503.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
22525.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
22526.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
22550.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
22555.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
22581.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這些都算不算所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那一些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
22583.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
22606.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面踐行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
22607.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
22636.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
22636.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
22665.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
它只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
22667.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
22688.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這個我是贊成的謝謝您那這樣的一個機制不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
22689.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
22709.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
因為我覺得這個是原住民自決權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
22712.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
22723.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
是願意嗎可以好謝謝你我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
22727.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
22754.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
22756.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
22772.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
22773.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
22793.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
22798.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
22813.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
22814.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
22839.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
22859.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
22861.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好 謝謝吳麗華委員的詢問也謝謝貝提名人政法官的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
22886.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
22889.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
好 謝謝 接下來我們請翁曉琳委員詢問 陳素悅委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
22913.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
22919.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
主席好 在這邊有請曾法官被提名人法官再請被提名人 請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
22929.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
22949.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
政備提名人您好,我想您被提名為大法官,然後身為未來有可能執行憲法,然後擔任憲法守護者還有人權守護者的角色,這樣的一個重要的職務,所以接下來本席想要請教您一些比較實際上的有關於憲法判決的一些問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
22950.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
22977.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我不知道说您有没有知道一个新闻就是本周一呢在土城有发生了一件汉人听闻的一个街头杀人案他是一个有家暴前科的凶嫌那么事实上他在开这个要申请紧急保护令的这个停开完停之后呢他大概心生不满就开车去冲撞他的妻子还有小姨子然后随后又持刀杀害了他的妻子 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
22977.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
22991.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
跟小姨子當場這兩個女生就失去生命跡象然後送醫急救後仍然是宣告不治那麼兇嫌在落網之後他就說他有精神病 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
22993.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
23020.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那么这样当然他这样的说法就让人不禁想起就是在去年宪判之八号的判决里面其实大法官对于死刑就设下了重重的条件障碍其中有一项就是如果说有精神病者的话就不可以处死那么没想到这样一个宪法判决竟然就成为凶手想要逃脱死刑的护身符 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
23021.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
23041.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
现在是不是只要自称有精神病的然后只要犯下了这种滔天杀人的大罪就不能判死那么这就是回到我刚刚讲的就是因为大法官现在他作为一个宪法守护者人权守护者其实在解释人权议题的时候要非常的小心谨慎虽然说我们也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
23042.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
23060.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
大法官其实在解释的过程当中他希望能够更进一步的去强化人权的保障但是我们也观察到近年来大法官在开展这些人权或是自由权保障的议题的时候常常会忽略了台湾社会的主流民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
23061.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
23082.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那跟多数国民的法感情还有国内的法文法文化是背道而驰特别是可能也严重的这个跟我们国民的对于公平正义的一些标准看法相左那么所以像是几个比较众所瞩目的宪法判决除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
23083.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
23111.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我们刚刚讲的死刑有条件核限的判决宪判自8号的判决之外另外像是大法官宣告通浸罪违宪法院命诽谤人强制道歉的这样的一个处分违宪还有也限缩了侮辱公务员罪的范围等等这些宪法判决其实看在国人的眼里总觉得好像大法官是活在云端很不接地气根本不了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
23112.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
23138.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
民间社会对于正义的价值跟坚持所以呢当然我们也知道了大法官决定做成这些宪法判决的它的这个本质它就是有抗多数决的这个特性可是如果大法官他持续的忽略多数的民意那么不思考国民主权的意义同时做出这些宪法判决可能就会严重侵害到社会的观感 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
23139.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
23161.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
人民的这个法感情这个也可能会对于法律和实务界会带来很多的困扰跟障碍所以在此的本席想请教你就是你如何看待大法官解释对于社会可能会带来的重大冲击而在人权保障以及社会影响和社会冲击之间你认为要怎么样取得平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
23164.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
23190.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
23193.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
23209.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
不一樣的解釋內容那這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分那至於抗多數決的部分我覺得是在少數族群的權力保障上面這個部分要特別的去留意它 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
23209.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
23238.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
23239.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
23262.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
因为侵犯了个人性自主权而违宪之后而违宪就是大法官在791号解释就是基本上宣告通奸罪违宪所以我们现在已经是没有通奸罪了那么近年来其实也有出已经看到有些地方法院的判决他依循着大法官的解释 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23263.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23286.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
因為通姦除罪了所以呢在這個進行相關的這個民事的損害賠償相關案子當中他就否定了配偶權的存在那會認為說其實受害的配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌的配偶的那一方去請求民事損害賠償的權利那不知道像這樣子的一個見解您是否認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23288.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23305.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解就是目前多數還是會認為說配偶權裡面的忠誠義務應該也是算是民法保障的權利之一也就是身份法義之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23306.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23328.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
因為大法官其實在791號解釋有說其實這個通姦罪它雖然它是維護忠誠義務的本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務但是大法官認為說其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務可是這個議題就在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23335.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23342.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
如果說婚姻關係當中你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務可是又不承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23344.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23367.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
肯认性的忠诚义务是婚姻忠诚义务当中一个很重要的环节所以我想请教政法官您认为在大法官所讲的忠诚义务的概念之下排除了性忠诚义务之后我们的婚姻忠诚义务还剩下什么还有些什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23368.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23392.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23393.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23409.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段去那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23410.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23429.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
所以配偶权里面还包含了哪些内涵因为大法官其实是更重视的是个人的性自主权那么也认为说其实配偶跟配偶之间他不能够透过性自主权利去绑住另外一个人所以从这个角度来讲配偶权里面他还可以有些什么样的内涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23432.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23459.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這個配偶權的這個部分大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身份法義就人格權的一部分所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶的意思所以受侵害的時候他是可以請求損害賠償或者是在某程度之下他也可以變成離婚的室友我想這個應該都是法律有明文規定的所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分是還是存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23460.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23485 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
不过就是说因为确实大法官的这号解释它的影响层面是很大的然后包含大法官也在解释当中他认为说刑法通奸罪的违宪除了一方面他可能是侵犯了个人的限制主权之外还有一个重要的理由就是因为他在追溯审判的过程当中他有干预人民的隐私 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23485.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23506.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
所以在這裡我想請教的就是說難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中在處理有關於這種婚姻的出軌的事件事件中在調查證據或是在當事人舉身的過程當中不會有干擾個人隱私的問題不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23509.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23532.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
就是關於民事訴訟的舉證這個部分關於證據能力我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定的這麼明文這麼嚴格所以通常我們就會去用應該是用比例原則去做衡量也就是他對於那個隱私的侵犯跟他所要達到的這個舉證的目的這個手段之間是不是有相當性合理性這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23534.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23553.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
譬如說錄音啊或者是其他的就是狀況不一樣要具體來看因為其實通姦罪的這個問題在向來我們很多的學術單位或是媒體去做民調其實台灣的多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23554.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23570.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
可是呢大法官其實已經不止一次了他在很多的憲法判決上面很明顯的看到他基本上就是違反多數民意包含像通姦罪的除罪化我覺得他這是通姦罪被宣告違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23572.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
23587.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
这个议题其实都引起了社会上面非常多的讨论这当然我觉得它实际上也影响了法院实务的判决现在当然是已经有法官有做出来我们刚刚讲他否认了 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
23588.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
23610.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
配偶权所以认为说你那个受害的配偶他是无权向出轨的配偶请求损害赔偿的权利固然您说现在这可能还是少数法院少数法官的见解但是我觉得大法官的这个判决事实上他未来有可能会让整个婚姻制度的保障越来越示威 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
23611.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
23639.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
因為這樣的見解這個已經使得就是通姦行為從一開始我們認定他是有罪之後告處罪那未來有沒有一天可能就是整個通姦行為就合法化了因為當民事法院的法官也越來越認為說我順著大法官的邏輯事實上似乎是沒有配偶權存在的就是已經沒有不具有配偶權因為大法官意思就是說要尊重每個人雙方的性自主的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
23641.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
23650.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那在這樣的情況之下有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為是合法化就算是配偶出軌其實也得不到任何的損害賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
23653.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
23679.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
首先我要講就是說我們的剛剛講到這些就是地院的見解某程度還是要受到審計制度的檢視這樣子所以說原則上他還是要受到審計制度看最高法院的見解那另外說社會變遷有沒有可能走到內部那我想這個誰都不敢說所以您認為這個791號解釋有沒有之後有機會再修正或改變的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
23680.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
23696.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那就要看具體的情況了好好的那麼接下來呢我再請教另外一個案子那麼就是我們知道其實這個賴清德政府上任之後他們已經採取了很多的措施對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
23699.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
23728.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
23730.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
23747.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
111年等於說當了一年多的職務在111年年底的時候就卸任了等於說他都已經卸任了可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除石雪燕議員的公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
23749.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
23774.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
一個很關鍵的理由就是說因為呢石雪硯議員在當他在當議員的那一年之內當時並沒有檢附上司原國籍的證明文件所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定因此要解除他的公職本期在這邊想請教你的就是大陸配偶是外國人嗎是用國籍法的規範嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
23780.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
23804.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例吧應該是適用兩岸關係條例對不對應該是不適用國籍法所以內政部基本上他這個隱據國籍法的規定說已經取得大陸身份證已經取得台灣身份證的陸籍配偶他要提出上司原國籍證明的這件事情是不是就很荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
23805.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
23827.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個部分因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚而且我們大概是以戶籍為準吧所以在兩岸人力關係條例裡面講的就是說必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍或者是護照所以是戶籍的問題那這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚我就沒有辦法就是任意的去評論它 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
23828.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
23845.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
是謝謝政法官您的這個您畢竟是專業的法官很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定當然本席現在今天講的這個完全就是內政部他之所以要解除石雪燕議員公職的一個理由就是說他在任職的一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
23846.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
23875.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
当时在一年之内因为依照内政部自己规定说必须要在一年之内要提出上市原国籍的证明文件所以这个新闻爆发之后其实舆论华人认为说一个大陆籍的配偶已经取得我们国民身份证你要叫他怎么去放弃原国籍的证明所以我认为说其实内政部的这样的一个要求基本上就是一个违法违宪的要求另外我再提一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
23876.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
23893.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
另外一个案例就是最近有一名师大附中的学生他去申请国防医学院那只是因为他是在南京出生回台湾涉及不满20年所以就被国防医学院拒绝拒绝录取 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
23894.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
23909.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
拒绝收他那么最主要的原因就是因为在国防医学院的招生简章当中呢当然他有讲就是必须要在台湾设计20年然后才可以有这个有录取有可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
23909.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
23930.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
就是可以成为国防医学院军校学生的这个资格那么这个中间其实还涉及到一个就是民进党政府的从2018年开始他们当时就修订了人民关系条例的实行细则在里面的规定就是将陆配子女 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
23931.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
23955.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
在大陸地區出生如果說他在出生一年之內沒有回到台灣涉及就會變成大陸地區的人口我覺得關鍵點在這邊我們知道其實有很多台商家庭他們可能工作生活在大陸和小孩在那邊誕生但是他只要出生一年之內沒有回到台灣涉及之後他竟然就變成了大陸人請問您知道這則新聞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
23956.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
23962.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
我有從報章上面得知這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題因為他要去考這個大學他可能還沒有滿20歲所以他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
23980.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
23996.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
是 所以你有沒有認為說其實這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這個學生的受教權已經違反了平等原則我不敢直接這樣子說但是我覺得這個是有討論空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
23997.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
24026.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
是 那麼我認為說其實像這樣子的問題未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的這個標的那麼對於就是兩岸人民關係還有對於就是現在陸配或是我們講新台灣資質他們的權利的保護我也希望就是未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考能夠多維護他們的權利好 那接下來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
24029.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
24055.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
請教一個問題麻煩跳到比較後面這個PVT賴清德總統他在之前的憲法演講裡面團結演講裡面他有說這個立法院不可以去介入考試院的職權運用多數去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度這是屬於考試院的權利請問您是否同意這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
24058.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
24065.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這句話因為它的那個背景跟實際上想要表達的那個內容我並不是很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
24066.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
24091.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
不过就是这是真的就是赖清德总统说的话他首先先讲了宪法第83条考试院为国家最高考试机关然后掌理什么考试任用权序等等这些资格那么当然他主要是在讲就是说是立法院不应该任意的去修改警消人员的退休金条例也不应该任意的去提高军人待遇条例所以呢他认为说这是属于 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
24092.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24116.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
考試院的職權那麼如果說立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度請問如果說不是立法院去立法去規範公務人員退休輔續制度請問考試院要怎麼做考試院可以自己制定辦法制定規則嗎他可以自己制定立法嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24121.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24146.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
這個部分我真的沒有辦法很直接的回答我就是從形式上來看我想這應該就是依法吧對不對考試院必須依法行政必須依法去管理好謝謝翁曉琳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的政法官的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24158.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24170.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
被提名的人要不要喝一口水你喝完水我才能提名上好我向您好謝謝接下來我們請陳樹越委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24185.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24192.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
謝謝院長請院長邀請大法官被提名人鄭純惠女士麻煩再請被提名人鄭法官請說明鄭被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24209.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24215.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
想請教政法官您知道現在社會最深惡痛絕的犯罪行為是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24217.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24241.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
應該就是這個詐騙事件吧詐騙 對 確實因為這個詐騙現在層出不窮然後受害的民眾非常的多那造成這個財產的損失甚至就是說這個生活上的一個壓力所以社會鄉親真的是深惡痛絕那也期待我們的政府可以拿出有效實際的作為來打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24242.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24258.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那可是我們最近就是說有看到這個有關大法庭針對就是詐騙的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例當中的有關被害自白並且繳交犯罪所得就可以獲得減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24259.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24289.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
其中的犯罪所得到底是指個人獲得的報酬還是被害人全部的損失就是有關這個規定就是在今年的五月最高法院刑事大法庭有做出了裁定那這個裁定就是針對認為說這邊的犯罪所得指的是個人的報酬所以詐欺犯罪的被告只要自白並且繳回實際報酬就可以減刑那這個裁定做成之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24289.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24318.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
引起民众的议论认为说这样的裁定等于是将诈欺合法化了为诈欺犯大开方便之门甚至就我所知法务部也认为大法庭采取这样的见解已经背离立法的意旨那也就是会因此造成不当的减刑的结果本席想在这边请教政法官针对这样子大法庭的一个裁定您认为适当吗恰当吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24321.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24337.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
首先因為我是辦理民事審判所以對於刑事大法庭做出這樣裁定他實質考慮的那個因素跟最後的結果這個我是沒有辦法提出評論但是我認為大法庭最後做出來的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24339.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24352.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
法律見解是可以受公平的那透過公平就是社會上去或者是學者他們去提出相關的意見那就有進一步討論的空間也可以再有修正機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24353.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24366.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
因為社會的公平 社會的意見真的是認為這樣子的裁定是沒有辦法被接受的認為這樣子對於詐欺犯人是太輕了這部分法務部也要提出修法的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24374.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24388.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那當然這個就是我本席就針對這部分我有提案就是希望就是說針對這個部分我們還是要認定為是這個被害人的一個損失這樣子的話才有辦法達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24390.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24413.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
遏止的壓力當然再回過頭來我再請教就是說因為對於打詐真的是社會的期待也因為大家都認為說在法令上或者是說最後的審判的結果都是太輕了就是說對於詐欺犯的判決都太輕了所以沒有辦法有效的遏止 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24414.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24429.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
所以在這個就是日前豐原那一家五口就是因為疑似詐騙案然後走上絕路這個案件發生之後可以說是引起社會各界非常大的一個震驚 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24429.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24445.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
所以本席在地方就接獲到很多鄉親真的是非常的就是非常的關心而且希望我們針對這個部分提出比較嚴厲的一個修法那甚至有鄉親主張說針對詐欺的主謀要 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24448.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24472.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
要求處以死刑然後針對共犯也要處以重刑針對這個部分請教政法官就是說您認為要怎樣才能夠有效來遏止詐騙這個部分怎麼樣有效遏止我想這個也是多面向就是立法行政這些各方面至於立法要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24473.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24497.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
刑度這些問題我想這是屬於立法裁量的問題但是可能也是要比較各個法條之間的相關性然後就是聽聽各界的意見這樣做一個比較就是我覺得這個是屬於立法裁量的問題這個我目前也沒有深入研究我也不敢做太就是太明確的說明這樣子那 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24500.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24529.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
回到剛剛的問題啊就是說這個大法庭是司法院就是為了要解決這個裁判的歧義統一法律的一個見解所推動建立來取代以往這個判例的一個新制度那就我剛剛舉的這個例子因為針對這個就是剛剛說的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例當中的這個被告自白並且繳交犯罪所得這個定義的一個裁定引起社會的一個嘩然 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24530.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24549.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
所以到底就是說最高法院的大法庭所做出的統一法律見解的裁定到底能不能做到真正的一個解決問題彌平這個爭議或者是造成更麻煩的一個實務的一個困擾所以對於這個大法庭的一個成效我們是否要進行這個通盤的一個檢討關於那個大法庭我就從民事大法庭的這個運作來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24557.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24583.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
也就是說大法庭制度它其實是希望統一法律解釋這件事情就是回歸到司法權的本質透過法庭裁判的方式去處理它那實施之後其實我們講從程序面它確實有讓當事人參與也有請專家學者來參與讓整個程序變得更公開透明那至於說程序進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24585.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
24613.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
最後做出來的多數的實體見解是不是大家都沒有意見那這個就很難說那因為本來實體的見解就是可受公平那出來如果說社會或學界都有意見那就有一個討論的空間可以促使法學的再進步那至於那個剛剛委員提到說是不是應該要做定期的成效評估像國民法官那樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
24613.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
24635.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那這個因為是屬於司法行政的問題但是我覺得如果要做他要去做一些問卷調查的方法或對象可能跟國民法官是有一點點本質上的不同因為他畢竟是一個專業的法律間接所以這個部分大概應該要再做進一步的去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
24637.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
24657.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
法律希望救社會秩序的手段,如果說救詐欺的行為沒有達到遏止的效果的話,我個人是覺得這部分是不是應該也要進行檢討? |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
24658.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
24681.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我想委員對於這個部分應該是有很深的期望因為這是社會基層的期望因為基層的老百姓他們都真的覺得說沒有辦法看到政府很有效的打仗所以他們會覺得就是沒有信心所以我們還是希望就是說法律到底就是要維持社會秩序的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
24682.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
24711.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
一個防線一個手段所以我們還是希望說就相關的法律也好或者是這個大法庭也好應該都要有實際的一個成效才好啦好那接下來本席在針對有關就是這個羈押權的部分來請教我們政務法官就是我們看到就是最近就是發生了有這個民眾在網路上散播就是檢察官法官的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
24712.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
24741.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
個資就是這個照片然後經過偵辦之後也把這個犯嫌找到了那也經過檢察官法官開庭審理後然後遭羈押禁建可是我們看到說這個遭羈禁建之後民眾黨的黃國昌宣稱說這樣子的一個行為是濫權羈押迫害人權所以修法刻不容緩那我想請教鄭法官您針對這一個案件您的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
24745.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
24749.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
你觉得积压就是说怎样的积压是合理性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
24751.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
24777.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
這樣的羈押是合理性的我覺得這個部分因為是要個案判斷這個也涉及到檢察官的核心的裁量權所以我沒有辦法去做評斷但是我覺得就是說就司法是最後的防險所以要維持司法的依法審判獨立對於司法人員的安全確實有保障的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
24778.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
24799.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
是 那因為本席就是跟您就叫一下政法官因為本席就他的一個記者會的標題我就覺得非常的矛盾因為他說濫權羈押迫害人權修法刻不容緩修法他是重點在修法那我們檢察官羈押的話他應該就是依法來進行羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
24801.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
24812.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那如果說他要修法就是表示說這個法律是有不適宜不不恰當的地方嗎如果沒有的話那應該就就不是合理的一個羈押嗎是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
24812.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
24841.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
如果是依法羈押當然就是合法的那他現在要來修法那要把它修法等於就是要把它放寬呢還是說要來因為我們都知道這個司法法律就是最後一道防線嘛那他等於是要把這個防線打開所以這樣子的話我覺得就等於是在干預司法了因為具體的那個修正草案並沒有看到所以也沒有辦法知道修正的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
24842.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
24861.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
當然就沒有辦法做進一步的那個平息是那我們真的就是不樂見說這個政治人物就是說利用這個職權來干預司法我覺得這樣子是非常不可取的也不是民主的社會一個正常的一個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
24862.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
24883.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那再来就是针对在就在最近嘛三个月六月二十七号那在野党夹着人数的优势三读通过法院组织法的修正案就是新增法庭的直播的一个规定那明定就是法律审裁原则公开例外不公开 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
24884.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
24912.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
事實審裁原則不公開例外公開那審理如果涉及重大公共利益或者社會矚目案件就得依當事人申請或依職權裁定來以適當方式實施公開播送那就這個部分不曉得政法官您的看法如何我想這個不管是就是法界團體提出這些無非都是要保護參與程序關係人他的基本人權就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
24914.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
24936.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
法條已經通過了那法條通過的那個部分他就是說目前看起來就是他有做一些原則的限制那他為了就是要因應實際上那個每個個案不同的情節他也運用了很多不確定的法律概念比如說什麼適當方式播放啊或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
24937.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
24962.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
違反國家安全 供需兩署這些等等這些不確定的法律概念讓法官去做裁量那這個部分因為實施辦法是由司法院定的那我想那個司法行政單位應該會針對這些做一些比較妥適具體的那個規定以去保障就是說我們需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
24963.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
24992.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
裁判就是說如果立法目的是公開透明那除了這個之外我們更應該要兼顧所有參與程序的人他的權利的保障因為尤其是比如說像證人他其實他是為了遵守法律給他作證的義務來到法院那其實我們也應該要去保護他相關的權益那這些怎麼樣去兼顧我想司法行政單位他應該會去想辦法落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
24994.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
25013.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
是 事實上就是說有關這個法庭公開直播的議題也是討論很多年了啦是各界都沒有取得這個共識那這一次就是在野黨強推法庭的直播當然他們也夾著這個多數已經通過了不過在討論的過程當中法律界就是包括法官 檢察官 律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
25014.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
25029.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
學者也都齊聲的反對然後甚至有多達二三十個學界民間團體都發這個聲明來反對所以對於這樣子的一個倉促的一個推行法庭公開直播我覺得說對於未來可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
25029.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
25042.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
在法庭有關案件的一個審理上就是對人權的保障或者是名譽權人性的尊嚴等等我想這個都會造成很大的一個衝擊所以就 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
25046.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
25063.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那個正被提名人因為你未來會是憲法法庭的這個法官那就是有關就是憲法法庭保障這個人權就是基本的一個保障所以就這個部分你覺得要怎樣來做的話會比較恰當 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
25065.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25086.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
就是如同我剛講的也就是說法官在裁因為他有的並不是絕對那所以如果在裁量什麼叫做適當方式或者是在篩選那個案件怎麼去解釋這些事情的時候其實可能法官本身他就會去考量平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25088.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25104.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
訴訟關係人他的基本人權的保障然後用什麼樣的方式去讓他不會受到侵害那我想另外一個問題是當公開播送了之後這些資料怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25106.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25130.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
會不會被使用怎麼樣去限制它的使用我想這是另外一個更需要去注意的問題因為畢竟現在資訊時代所以這個公開播放之後如果這些資訊流出去的話我們應該要怎麼樣去就是保管它然後讓它的使用是有正當目的我想這個也是另外一個很重要的課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25131.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25153.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
好 謝謝那接下來本席想再針對有關的這個不在籍投票的這個問題來請教政法官因為這個議題當然也是討論很久了那目前我們也是沒有一個共識那因為在目前以台灣的一個狀況因為我們也面臨著就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25154.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25169.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
對岸一個敵對的一個勢力對我們可以說是虎視眈眈而且是無所不用其極的一個滲透那想請教政法官就是說在這個階段您認為來開放不在籍投票您覺得適當嗎關於不在籍投票這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25174.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25201.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
如果照目前法律規定公民投票法它是有明文規定可以不在即投票但是要另外以法律定制所以這部分公民投票的不在即投票是需要立法去把它明定的那至於除了公民投票之外那因為公民投票它本身會比較沒有爭議是因為它是針對事情也就是說就是立法原則啊重大政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25201.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
25222.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
所以針對事情的不在即投票相對爭議性會比較少但是針對人的投票爭議性相對就會比較高那因此就是除此之外為什麼全面不在即投票會引起這麼大的爭議大概也在這個地方那全面的不在即投票大概就是怎麼樣去考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
25224.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
25252.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
投票的秘密性公平性還有整個社會的信賴性我想這個是很重要那其實也是蠻困難的所以可能還要進一步的去形成共識是那就是說如果說沒有辦法進行全面的開放不在己投票如果是針對只針對開放特定族群比如說對原住民身心障礙者開放不在己投票通訊投票的話那您的看法又是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
25253.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
25268.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
就是說如果是針對特定族群的話如果這些特定的族群他確實有這樣的一個不在籍投票的需求的時候那為了去保障憲法上保障的那個選舉權 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
25269.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
25285.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那這個部分我想立法上確實有需要去優先考慮就是在全面投開放不在籍投票之前也許應該可以先去考量就針對特定族群他確實有沒有辦法到 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
25287.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
25316.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
實際的投票所去投票這樣的一個狀況而為了要保障他的投票權這個部分我想是可以就各個族群他的那個需求的特性去做一些考量那這個部分我覺得是可以優先考量的是好謝謝那最後剩一點時間那本席想再請教一下被提名人就是我們知道大法官這個憲法法庭非常的重要那大法官也扮演著維護自由民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
25316.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
25344.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
憲政秩序的關鍵的一個角色那未來如果就任大法官之後在人權法制方面還有憲政體制的運作方面以及基本權利的保障方面您最關注關心的議題會是什麼請您簡單說一下所謂最關心議題因為如果是憲法法庭它基本上就是個司法司法就是要受理具體的案件了之後才會去處理它才會去處理它 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
25345.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
25374.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那所以對於大法官來講現在的社會因為尤其是像我們現在已經邁入就是高齡化的社會社會衍生的一些變遷會影響到很多的層面那當它發生了一些需不需要進一步去做一些價值判斷的時候那這個等到有具體個案的時候我想這些都應該要去做考慮了 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
25375.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
25403.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
好那謝謝政法官謝謝陳樹越委員的詢問也謝謝被提名的政法官的說明好接下來我們請林倩琦委員請詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
25417.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
25424.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
主席院長各位同仁大家好那我們請正被提名人麻煩被提名人正法官請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
25435.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
25460.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
鄭被提名人 鄭法官您好首先感謝您出席今天的被提名人的審查本席在您的自傳裡面讀到您的整個成長背景應該對您人格上有很大的影響在學習的過程當中對於每位教師對您的影響您也一語以道之把這個重點講得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
25462.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
25479.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那您在擔任民事大法庭的這個法官的時候呢,您也意識到法律見解對於有一些爭端的解釋有一些局限性,那您認為超過這個職場的法律爭議,需要由大法官以憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
25481.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
25503.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
訴訟來評估那麼整體憲法訴訟的解釋呢對於社會的價值選擇還有這整體的社會走向是有很大的影響所以本席相信您在這個過程當中對於大法官這樣一個工作應該是有一些使命的所以今天本席就以下幾點要來跟您就教 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
25505.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
25514.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那第一點是有關於司法信任跟這幾年大家朗朗上口的司法改革那麼根據TVBS在今年5月15日公佈的民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
25518.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
25538.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
司法改革是所有政策當中滿意度最低的項目大概有百分之三十的民眾表示滿意但是大概有百分之五十八的民眾表示不滿意民眾常常認為司法審判會引發一些爭議對司法信任度不足的一個主因 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
25539.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
25556.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所以另一方面,這幾年實行的國民法官制度的調查當中,有89.8%的受訪者在參與審判前即信任司法。在參與審判之後,又對司法的信任度提高到了98.7%。 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
25559.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
25587.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那顯示了這個國民法官的這個實質參與後民眾對司法就更有一些信心但是整體社會對於司法改革的成效還是有一些疑慮所以本席認為能夠讓民眾接近司法了解司法其實也可以提高一些信任度那也就是說制度的設計呢如果能夠讓人民有更多的實質參與應該對於整個司法信任是可以有機會修復的 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
25589.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
25618.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
所以本席想要在這邊請教正被提名人 正法官您擔任法官超過三十年那麼是不是有體察到人民對於司法不信任的這樣現象呢那或許我再更進一步問那這幾年來大家對於司法改革尤其是這九年那自從這個司法會議開完了之後呢對於整個成效不彰的這樣一個看法的根源會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
25619.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
25632.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
您要不要先就這個部分就您的觀察您的看法這個回應就我從事審判工作這些年我覺得其實司法信心的核心是裁判的正確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
25634.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
25653.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
也就是說如果你的裁判是正確的能夠得到當事人的信賴的話慢慢的司法就會獲得大家的信任那除了參與程序的人之外其他的人他們沒有參與程序某程度都是透過外在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
25655.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
25670.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
報導去得到說司法到底公不公正但我覺得至少在我的經驗裡面我覺得審判獨立這件事其實是有的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
25671.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
25700.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
司法行政應該要做一些怎麼樣的事情讓民眾可以了解其實目前審判獨立這件事應該不是個問題那可能第二個層次就會變成說那大家對於每一個司法裁判的最後的結果可能不一定會滿意那除了說當事人兩兆他會有一兆是敗訴的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
25701.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
25730.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那所以他絕對不太可能會滿意這樣的一個司法的結果所以這個是司法本質上面不容易得到全部人的滿意或者他滿意度不高這樣的一個本質的問題那我覺得只要每一個法官他堅守他的獨立審判做出正確的裁判這個才是司法獲得人民信心最根本的問題那另外一個就是讓人民能夠了解司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
25731.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
25754.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
對 所以讓 本席剛才也提到所以讓人民比較多的了解那對於整體的溝通是有正面效益的那您剛才談到這個審判不利大概是這裡面很重要的一個原因那當然整個社會上呢對於訊息的來源會有一些價值的判斷所以本席認為社會目前的氛圍是對於有錢有勢者可以氣飽潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
25756.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
25777.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
跟大法官可以不顧名義來增加死刑判決難度的現象有一些憂慮我想這是現階段大家對於司法信心產生危機的很大一部分的一個原因所以您在這段當中也提到社會價值需要由全體社會成員長期凝聚共識來形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
25778.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
25807.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那麼大法官是否有義務來反思司法體系與民意的距離特別是您本身也是個教師那您如何看待這段距離的形成跟化解之道這個當然就是要視具體情況而定就是在面對不同的個案的時候它所牽涉到的那個比如說大法官解釋它所牽涉到的憲法價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
25807.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
25834.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
是集體價值還是少數人民的就是少數族群的權利如果只是少數族群的權利的時候這個時候你可能還是要優先去保護它因為它絕對沒有辦法透過民法就是民主的多數決去獲得保護但是當它的那個憲法價值是涉及到整個社會的共識的時候這個時候我們社會是怎麼樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
25835.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
25862.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
民意基礎就是說大家的價值觀是怎麼樣這部分確實是需要考量的是的謝謝您的這個回應所以看起來如果司法上有一些跟民意相距太遠的這個部分我相信如果您有機會擔任這個工作應該也會對這個部分提出一些看法方法及省思好的那第二個部分本席想要針對這個您剛才其實有講到的司法獨立跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
25864.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
25883.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
後續本席這邊談的一個司法獨立跟政治干預的這個問題那麼您在自傳裡面也談到獨立的司法是法治國家的根本那麼本席非常認同這樣一個方向那麼您是否有在司法生涯當中曾經遇過來自政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
25884.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
25899.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
或特定的一些事例或者是行政機關關說的壓力這是本席一個假設性的提問那不曉得您是不是在這個部分有遇到這樣的問題所以如果有這樣子的情境 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
25900.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
25923.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那您在這樣子的狀況下您如何自處那如果未來擔任大法官尤其是面對高度敏感而且具有政治性的釋憲案件您如何自我要求確保不受政治力的影響就這個部分應該是說就是我多年來這樣子從事審判工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
25924.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
25954.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
那應該是說當你樹立一個形象你是不會被關說的你就不會被關說所以我是沒有遇到這樣的一個情況那至於說我們在懲判案件多多少少也會遇到一些敏感性案件或怎麼樣但是我們就我的經驗就是依法懲判這個部分我覺得也沒有什麼好猶豫或者是有需要去特別顧慮的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
25954.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
25974.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
好的,本席這邊跟你分享一個案例,讓我們來這個部分來做一些省思。上次的大法官的人事案,其中有一位劉靜儀教授遭到民進黨的整體封殺,結果這個理由實在很令人難以置信,也就是他竟然理由是多次辱罵民進黨。 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
25976.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
25990.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那麼在立法院的柯總召更直接表態不讓他過關那這個會帶給外界一個看法就是說執政黨好像不容許有獨立意志的大法官的存在那急於控制憲法法庭那麼請問您 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
25992.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
26013.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
當執政黨將政治忠誠視為人事審查的最高指標的時候您不知道這個部分有沒有警覺您如何保證自己未來進入憲法法庭以後面對這相近的情況來自政黨行政體系的壓力仍然能夠堅守法律人最基本的認知跟良知 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
26016.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
26026.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
這個部分我沒有辦法評論但是就我個人而言我只能說就像我在口頭報告講的就是我三十幾年來的審判歷程就是我的保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
26028.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
26049.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
好的謝謝您對這個問題的回應好那接下來一點本期想要跟您請教比較實務上的一個案子案例是關於警職人員退休制度的核限性那警職人員與一般公務人員在考試任用服勤制度上有一些重大的差異那麼2017年到2024年間警消 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
26052.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
26077.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
因為因公死亡的人數佔了整個軍公教將近四成顯示他的工作在整個風險裡面顯著的偏高然而整個退休的制度跟一般公務人員是一樣的本席在認為這個部分似乎有一些違反平等原則當中不同的事物應有合理的差別待遇的一個憲法精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
26078.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
26092.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
那麼立法院在今年出三讀通過警察人員人事條例的部分條文提升了警消海巡退休所得替代率民進黨揚言要提起釋憲那請問您認為依據憲法上的平等原則這一個條文有違憲之餘嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
26098.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
26126.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
您是否認同本席的觀點也就是實踐平等應該承認井消海巡工作的特殊性給予合理的差異待遇如果在不同的處境當中給予相同的待遇是不是會違反實質的平等那本席認為保障井消海巡的退府權益不僅是社會正義也是憲法應有的要求那您對這件事情的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
26128.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
26151.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
關於這個問題如果從委員提出來的就是說會提出釋憲的話那我應該就不方便在這裡表示意見因為這個我想這個我就不方便在這邊表示意見那您對於本席剛才所講的這樣一個憲法的精神的一個看法呢就是本席提出的這個觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
26152.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
26159.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
憲法精神當然沒有問題那具體到條文裡面怎麼落實這部分我就沒有辦法提出評析 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
26160.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
26182.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
本席尊重你在你的專業上的回應接下來本席要針對去年12月立法院修正通過的《財政收支劃分法》促使中央對地方釋出更多的財源因為原有的制度對於中南部或非直轄市的城市不太公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
26183.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
26201.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那資源上的分配有一些不平等那這次修法有助於資源更合理的分配例如根據財政學者黃耀輝教授有一些分析新治下的部分縣市的分配管可以增加一倍以上那麼這對城鄉差距的是具體有感的 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
26201.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
26230.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
那這樣子的改善不僅在垂直失衡跟縮小分配比例上不均的修法其實大多數縣市跟學者都很肯定但是行政院在今年又申請釋憲認為這樣子的一個舉動削弱了中央財政的權限並違反憲法第147條的精神那麼請問立法院以多數通過的這個法律調整財政結構是否屬於立法權之正當行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
26231.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
26252.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那麼民進黨總召稱財化法是準憲法因此不可以透過一般修法途徑變更財政結構您對於此點是否認同那本席認為憲法第147條明文保障地方發展與平衡那麼整個修法正是實踐這樣一個理想怎麼會反過來申請釋憲說違憲您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
26257.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
26285.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那這個我也要抱歉因為委員這件好像已經申請釋憲了所以我真的也所以即將申請釋憲跟已經申請釋憲因為這個是我們法官倫理規定所以確實我也不太方便去表達我個人的意見那本席也請你假設未來有機會您是在這個位置上那本席剛才所講的概念跟細節還有實踐的方式是不是可以請你列入你在這整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
26288.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
26288.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
26307.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
26335.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
即將提出像本席即將跟您提出來有關原住民議題的一些討論那當然本席在這個部分想跟您請教有關於原住民族在司法系統當中的地位跟文化理解那麼司法院目前已經設置了原住民的專題顯示司法機關正視了這個文化差異跟制度落差那這是重要的起點然而呢這個原民的法學者還有社會觀察者還是會指出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
26336.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
26352.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
實際運作當中整個司法官對於原住民族傳統文化的規範不足或將原住民的價值用法律體系來套用那麼在這個法理理論當中導致實質的正義很多時候沒有辦法落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
26353.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
26374.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
那您是否了解原住民專庭的設置背景跟現行的功能那原住民族在司法體系當中遭遇的文化落差跟實質的障礙您是不是有比較深入的了解那剛才本席也聽到您的一些回應跟詢答相信您對一些案例是有了解的那對於這個原住民族專庭的一個看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
26376.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
26390.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
就這個部分我想就是我曾經看過就是有學者提到說原住民的司法他其實就是原住民站在一個遠離部落的異族法庭也就是說對他們來講確實是陌生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
26392.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
26418.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
即便是一個原住民專庭他某程度對他們來講還是陌生的他還是在一個國家體制下的這樣一個架構系統這部分我覺得可以分成兩個部分就程序面跟實體面那程序面這個司法行政他有做一些就是希望可以落實實質平等所以他就會有一些機會平等比如說訴訟救助啊法律輔助啊然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
26419.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
26439.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
這是在程序方面 對然後希望他可以地位平等所以他就希望有一些同意當然目前原住民的那個就是與別的同意的那個人數應該還是這個同意當其實還是會有一些落差啦會有一些落差其實最主要的困難應該在實體面 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
26441.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
26457.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
也就是說我們怎麼樣去體認到說原住民的文化跟就是說他們的比如說部落的習慣法跟我們一般的成文法其實是有落差的那我們怎麼樣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
26457.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
26459.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
所以本席在這邊比較憂心的部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
26474.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
26496.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
大法官缺乏文化的這個敏感性那麼憲法來保障原住民的美意就很容易變成無形中又加諸了許多限制就如同您理解是在國家法治架構系統概念下所以您未來在審理涉及原住民族權利案件的時候是不是會主動來補充文化知識並且採取 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
26497.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
26511.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
多元詮釋的方法向您了解這個習慣法跟成分法的一個差異透過這樣子能夠來避免主流價值又在這個程序當中產生了許多對原住民族的壓迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
26513.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
26533.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
是的,像我觉得原住民族他们大概非常重视他们文化的话语权或者是诠释权,我想这个部分在遇到纷争的时候就有一些事情的解释上面应该要重视他们的诠释,也就是我们不能站在我们角度去看一件事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
26533.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
26554.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
是的而且這個話語當中其實還包括了話語體系後面的這個文化跟邏輯概念所以這邊提出來跟這個被提名人您這邊做一個討論所以我在這邊最後引用謝明陽大法官在過去原住民的這個解釋裡面在803號解釋的這個部分他提出來一個不同意見書的結語 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
26556.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
26577.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
然後做一個摘要的舉例他因為這樣一個事件呢在這個事件解釋之後對於原住民族狩獵仍然是維持非常嚴格的上對下的一個管制手段這個其實跟您剛才也有表達的這個原住民對自然這個權的一個概念其實是相呼應 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
26578.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
26596.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
所以這個事件所持的觀點基本上還是認為原住民族的狩獵行為危及治安而且危害到生態環境跟野生動物因此必須嚴格限制其獵鄉及狩獵的對象不僅不能持有功能較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
26597.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
26619.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
安全列槍進行狩獵之前也必須事先許可且其狩獵對象必須有所限制這樣子的觀點基本上就是對原住民狩獵文化沒有對等與充分的了解本席在這邊分享這一段給您希望未來如果您有機會在這個位置上可以真正省思這些話語當中所代表的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
26620.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
26639.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
今天鑑於時間的關係本席最後做一個結語在您自傳當中本席看到了您豐富的司法歷練跟法律素養也表達了對社會價值跟法律規範的深刻體悟因此本席期待你未來如果能夠出任大法官不僅能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
26641.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
26670.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
26672.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
26691.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
謝謝林千祺委員的詢問謝謝也謝謝被提名人鄭法官的說明鄭法官被提名請喝口水喝完水我們就要開始了 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
26696.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
26723.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
好 謝謝接下來我們請登記第六號 鍾嘉斌委員許問許新義委員請準備主席有請正被提名人麻煩再請被提名人正法官請上台說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
26737.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
26765.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
好 正被提名人您好我今天要跟您請教就是關於維護憲法法庭運作以及三級三審制度和大法庭制度是否比照國民法官制度定期檢討首先請教一下您有看了昨天政府院長被提名人在這裡接受審查質詢的情況嗎有昨天有看嗎那麼上週我們的有一個公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
26767.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
26789.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
也有各黨的代表和學者專家就大法官的同意權審查表示意見您有參酌嗎?有在當中我特別強調大法官的資格審查不可以淪為對大法官的思想審判您同意嗎?是可是就在昨天我們看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
26790.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
26814.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
院長被提名人接受在野黨的質詢的時候出現了連番累次的詢問詢問被提名人說你支持廢死嗎你認為對於被提名人在審查的時候詢問是否立場支持廢死可否成為在同意大法官提名的一個交換條件您的看法怎麼樣我覺得應該是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
26816.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
26841.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
被提名人個人的主觀想法其實都不會影響他對憲法解釋的客觀性很好表示在野黨他輪番的就他們的政治立場反對Face而要求被提名人表達他們對Face的立場另外也有在野黨委員要求被提名人就目前的憲法爭議要進行憲法訴訟像 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
26846.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
26874.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
到底立法委員提議增加原住民族的不管是金髮補償或是老農津貼這樣的侵犯預算權的方式是否有違憲有委員提出來詢問院長被提名人你覺得被提名人可以就這個問題進行答覆嗎這個應該是很難因為違憲不違憲不是被提名人說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
26876.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
26890.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
所以說你認為憲法裁判是根據憲法價值還是大法官的主觀想法這個我大概在書面也有提過我認為憲法解釋對就是這個就是你要不要念一遍讓大家聽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
26891.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
26891.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
是的,所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
26914.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
26930.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
您在您自己的書面說明未來身為大法官所應為的行為準則但是仍然今天不少委員在黨委員詢問你對特定案件未來如果成為大法官你的審理的傾向您覺得可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
26932.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
26961.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
我想那個立法院代表民意他對於大法官提名人提出一些期許這個是難免的但是這個都不會影響到審判獨立很好所以接下來我要請教一下你非常熟能的領域我所知道您在台北地方法院多次曾經當過刑庭的法官民庭的庭長好了這個案件呢是在去年看了新聞有一個六歲的女童繼承了他另外一個生父的實際遺產一千五百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
26962.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
26981.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
但他生父的既有配偶跟他生父跟他配偶的子女因為過去授贈3億的股票但是呢他拋棄了繼承結果稅務機關以他總遺產是3.2億要求這個唯一的繼承的女童要繳納5千萬的遺產稅這個案件您有瞭解嗎有 有看過好 那麼這個案件後來是不是進行了現判 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
26988.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
27009.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
113憲判11號其他繼承人負擔擬置遺產稅是違憲的他說到立法的目的是為了租稅公平但是不能絞殺性租稅第二受證配偶是繼承人因依比例剋稅第三受證配偶不是繼承人其他繼承人不負擔增加的稅額這已經是繼承的憲判你對這樣憲判的內容比照原來的案例您的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
27011.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
27025.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
我想這個憲判是從平等權的原則去檢視這個法條的規定也就是這個六歲的女童她其實並不是受證語的人可是她變成其他人拋棄繼承之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
27026.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
27049.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
他變成要去負擔這個遺產稅反而超過了他繼承的遺產確實是不公平的而且就是針對這個負擔能力相同而作差別待遇的這個平等權的解釋我覺得這個憲判11號的那個內容應該是值得你作為一個民庭的庭長所肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
27050.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
27078.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
所以看起來憲法法庭你看就這個個案來講如果照現行的稅務事件救濟流程他會在課稅處分之後由於當事人進行行政訴訟復查訴願形成不斷的循環萬年稅單無法得到救濟但是經過了違憲審查透過這樣的一個終局判決的提出釋憲確定派出之後他申請違憲審查廢棄判決宣告法律違憲立即失效限期修法是不是這是人民權利的另外一種救濟是 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
27080.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
27106.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
是的好那我再請教一下那麼現在呢有人主張說大法官啊不應該去陷入政爭成為執政黨跟在野黨的一個仲裁者您對於這樣的訴求認為大法官過去在憲法法庭的審理介入了在野跟執政的政爭你的看法如何我想這個部分大概應該還是要講說就是依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
27107.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
27122.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
法律的規定來裁判大法官針對那個權力分立最高就是各個國家機關之間的權限就是糾紛如果有申請的話他還是要依法裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
27123.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
27140.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那我們看一下實際的案例其實從2011年到2022年我們看到了其實不管是舊制的大審法還是新制的憲法訴訟法其實違憲審查憲法訴訟其實包含國會所申請的比例占了極低透過法院判決過程由法院提出的占了兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
27141.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
27157.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
而高達七成五四分之三是由人民因為受到他認為不法侵犯他權益的判決而申請訴訟憲法訴訟而得到憲判的救濟你覺得這麼說起來是不是憲法法庭最重要的保護的是人民的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
27158.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
27188.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
我想憲法法庭受理的絕大部分的案子是人民申請關於基本權利侵害的這個憲法解釋這個是事實好那麼這樣說來憲法法庭的運作就是因為憲法是人民權利的保障書那麼對於憲法忠誠就是對人民的權利忠誠你認為釋字第632號當中說的所謂的憲法忠誠就是憲法機關發揮其應有的憲政功能不能因人事的更衣而有一日中斷及時產生繼任人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
27188.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
27214.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
你覺得過去憲法法庭在憲訴法遭到立法院惡修之後是否在野黨惡修憲訴法的確也造成了對憲法運作的一個損害您的看法呢我只能說憲法法庭目前沒有辦法運作確實會造成申請人他的一個權利確定的延宕 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
27215.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
27234.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
所以蓄意讓憲法法庭停擺是違反了憲法忠誠原則也違反了憲法作為人民權利保障書這樣一個重要的保障而侵犯了進一步侵犯了人民的權利好那我們繼續來看好那麼剛剛提到了一個稅務行政事件審理法草案您對這個草案有所關注嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
27236.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
27254.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
這個我知道但是我並不是很明確了解內容因為這個跟我的專業有一點點距離是的沒有錯這是本席去年在司法委員會我們審理要解決萬年稅當的問題認為法院自行推計課稅不再由機關核定同時機關作為新主婚不得再次的溯怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
27255.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
27269.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
這樣的一個進步的立法您覺得它是源自於什麼樣的緣起跟之前的憲判我們看到的113憲判11號是不是促成了這樣的一個新法的制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
27271.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
27295.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
我想這個法律大概應該主要還是要貫徹依法公平科稅跟正當程序救濟的這個原則那我們再來談談遠一點的釋字七十八號它裡面提到的對於婚姻平權的問題憲法要求有關機關因本與本憲法公布之日期兩年內依本解釋意旨完成相關法律之修正或制定請問這裡的有關機關包括哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
27299.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
27323.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
有關機關就是需要去制定法律的權限機關那就是可能是立法院或者是行政院後來行政院送出了我們的4至78號實行法立法院也通過了所以可不可以這樣說憲判的結果包含行政機關包括立法機關因依循憲判的意旨對於法律制度進行必要的修補 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
27325.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
27347.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
憲法的解釋它是有拘束各機關跟人民的效力是的所以我剛剛說的就是說其實憲判的結果不僅保障人民的權利憲判的效力也給予相關機關尤其是立法機關必須針對大法官或憲法法庭對於現行的法制度的不完美它的缺陷我們進行補救這您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
27352.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
27366.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
憲法解釋或者是憲判的那個意旨如果是這樣說應該是有拘束力的那我來看看你應該很熟悉的這個憲判113年憲判八字號它是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
27370.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
27394.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
關於剋除死刑的問題他說有關機關應於本判決宣誓之日期兩年內依本判決一時休官相關的規定那剛剛的這樣的說明那麼相關機關是不是包括司法院或者是立法院113憲判對於死刑的憲判解釋有關機關應該就是有立法權限的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
27395.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
27417.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
那是不是包括刑事訴訟法是法務部法院組織法是司法院監獄刑刑法也是司法機關是不是這樣子就是依照那個宪判的意思宪判的意思好但是這裡面是不是包括了法院組織法法院組織法應該對於死刑的判決為一致決應該透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
27419.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
27436.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
法院組織法來修訂但是你知道嗎立法院前不久才完成了三讀的法院組織法有修改這一條嗎目前沒有沒有看到但是你知道修改了哪一條嗎修改了法庭審判要直播啊您對於法庭直播結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
27438.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
27464.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
贊成支持本案的國民黨立委包括曾振堅委員他的個人的案子他在之前受理的時候他要求不公開審理您覺得當庭的法官去報宅說你們不是支持法院直播嗎為什麼你的案件要不採公開審理呢您覺得這個案子您的評論是什麼這個當事人的要求法院要不要准許這個都個案判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
27465.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
27481.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
所以說我們來看一下其實我剛剛講了兩件事情就是一個兩個憲判一個行政院提出立法院訂了4至748號施行法來完成我們大法官憲判的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
27481.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
27506.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
但是另外一個憲法的意旨要求死刑一致決必須修改法院組織法但是居國會多數的在議長就悍然的拒絕沒有照你剛剛說的有關機關必須遵照憲法的意旨去進行修法反而修出了一個法庭直播的法院組織法我個人是相當離憾那接下來再跟你請教的一個就是一個你應該相當熟悉的就是111年最高法院108年 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
27507.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
27522.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
抗大致第八九七號民事裁定您在您的這裡面也說明了這是一個關於地方法院民事執行處有關於人壽保險契約解約的執行想請教一下你在這個案子上您的立場跟見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
27524.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
27549.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
我的立場應該就已經在那個螢幕上你要不要簡單的說明你提出的是不同意見書我初步是認為就是有幾個理由第一個是債權的平等性也就是債權是平等的所以欠債需要債務人還錢可是能不能去介入債務人跟第三人的契約關係我覺得這個要有法律的 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
27550.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
27563.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
所以在當時的這個大法庭的裁定,您是相對不同意見的,是不是這樣?是那你也為什麼你會覺得不同意見?你說您看到了後來地方法院民事執行處的湧射似乎您有預見了這個樣的解釋會造成後續的這樣的結果,是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
27568.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
27591.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
那個時候另外一個考量點就是執行是一個非送信職他是要迅速可是這個大法庭的多數意見他當然有給就是給執行處一些裁量就是必要時可是這種必要時對於司法事務官來講就是一個很難處理的問題也會造成那個具體標準的不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
27591.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
27620.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
而且財囊就會造成時間的延宕案件的激壓所以說你本人你從司法體系的基層做起你知道在我們地方法院的辛勞所以本席我們看一下在本席去年擔任司法法治委員會召委的時候我覺得這本案接到民眾的陳情我們也實際看了民事執行處的勇懾終於在短短一年多一點的時間我們就迅速的完成保險法的修法未來我們這樣的一個金錢債務是不是可以把它作為一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
27621.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
27641.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
人壽保險可不可以作為金錢債務的一個執行標的已經有到了一個救濟所以我要說明的是說其實大法庭司法體系所做的決定有時候就像您說的必須體察民意的過程當中由民意機關向立法院來為必要的修補你同意嗎具體的情況是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
27645.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
27671.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
是的好謝謝好那最後我來請教一下我們看到裁判得為申請標的三級三審如何維持這在大審法的階段跟限訴法的階段這裡面我們提到一個問題就是說人民申請憲判獲及到裁判本身憲法法庭是不是會淪為第四審的問題我們看到這是在11年憲判第八號這裡面講的是一個異國婚姻之後的婚生子女 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
27671.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
27699.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
的一個處分的問題那麼這當中呢當時的憲判當中有五位大法官提出不同意見書想請教一下您對於過去一整個憲判您可以給我們做一個意見的回饋就這個11年憲判第八號這件事情就是說他的實體結論可能大家也會有不同的意見就是要不要受理應該做成什麼樣的裁判但是我想說的是因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
27700.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
27725.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
在裁判理由裡面他有提出一些關於憲法法庭跟各級法院就是分工區分的一些標準那這個某程度去闡釋了那個憲法訴訟法第61條第一項也就是怎麼樣叫做具有憲法重要性以及貫徹基本權利所必要那這個為什麼重要這個就是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
27727.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
27750.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
避免憲法法庭變成第四審最重要的一個判斷標準那他有提供了一些比較容易檢視的那我想進一步說的是說他大概有區分成積極的違憲跟消極的違憲那我想可能要進一步考慮的是消極的違憲的這一塊比如說你沒有去審酌到那個基本權利的權衡這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
27751.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
27776.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
也許還要進一步的去看各個訴訟的訴訟性質比如說像民事訴訟他是當事人主義那當事人沒有提出來法官可不可以依職權斟酌這些訴訟程序的特性可能也要考慮那這些都有待將來憲法法庭在具體的個案去把它一一的去更明確的讓他有一個標準這樣就不會被人家說他是第四審 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
27777.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
27799.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
這也是本席請教你的原因因為這在當年有不同意見書它的重點就誠如您所說的第一裁判憲法審查制度不是要成為第四審第二所會發生根本性的錯誌才會予以判決才能廢棄第三就該案來講子女並非申請人所以是否法官的裁定並無不當那麼要不要進行違憲審查這個有所保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
27799.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
27827.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
所以你也很認清也重視這個事情在未來的憲法法庭不會有類似讓民眾或司法體系有這樣的疑慮是嗎是好那我們來看一下那麼剛剛已經請你評價了憲法第118號那麼你怎麼拿捏是否發揮與否的界限變成了避免憲法法庭破壞的三期三審變成第四審之外我們來看一下最後一個問題我們憲法我們當中統一解釋法令的權責拆分 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
27828.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
27850.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
這在憲法當中第78條規定司法院解釋憲法並有統一解釋法律及命令之權但是在原來大審法的階段呢是由我們的大法官來進行但是到了限訴法階段就拆分了分別是由憲法法庭進行對於這個憲法法庭它審理的底下案件統一法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
27851.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
27876.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
及命令的解釋但是另一方面呢法院組織法當中也對於提案庭提交的案件有拘束力這是不是就是我們現行的民事刑事大法庭的一個由來是好那請問一下您有所了解所謂的國民法官法嗎有國民法官法它是不是每年在試刑期間每年都要提出一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
27878.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
27887.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
那是不是在六年之後要來評估是否繼續實行實行六年之後為什麼國民法官制度要做這樣的一個評估的一個期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
27895.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
27909.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
一個新制度的建立不是那麼容易要定期的去檢討它這個制度那我就本期最後就就你個人你也參與了民事大法庭做出了那個影響到諸多保險人被保險人的權利你也提出了一個保留相反意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
27909.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
27929.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
你認為未來我們的大法庭制度雖然是依據我們的現在的憲訴法拆分出來交由司法院成立的兩個大法庭但是他事情到現在兩年多他所做成的裁定已經造成了一些可能我們死掉未及的後果你認為是不是應該有個定期的方式比照國民法官的制度來進行檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
27931.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
27952.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
我覺得這個可能是司法行政他要去考量的事但是如果要做也就是說他要考量的問卷的那個調查的方式好謝謝宗家兵委的詢問也謝謝被提名人證法官的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
27964.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
27976.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
請被提名再喝一口水我們就要開始了好謝謝接下來我們請登記第七位徐欣怡委員請詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
27990.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
28007.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
謝謝主席 本席請鎮法官麻煩再請貝提敏鎮法官請說明鎮法官您好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
28009.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
28030.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
您被總統提名為中華民國的大法官本席相信這個是身為法律人的榮耀本席也看過您的自傳還有相關的學經歷本席也對於您過去的專業學經歷深表敬佩今天我們會站在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
28031.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
28051.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
主要就是為了我們要替人民尋找值得信賴的民主憲政忠誠的守護者我想您也了解大法官他不只是法條的解釋者他更是民主憲政的守護者防火牆所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
28052.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
28071.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
我想今天希望您能夠放開心胸把握機會在這裡非常坦誠而且明確的來回答以下本席有三大重點的議題要請您向大眾來表達今天您要 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
28073.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
28099.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
在這裡向大家證明您是值得託付的也是會守護我們民主憲政的大法官首先本席想跟您請教現在台灣社會對於重大暴力犯罪仍然有很強烈的判死的情緒民調也顯示有八成以上的民眾支持死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
28101.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
28113.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
本席就想請教您對於死刑制度的基本立場是廢死還是保留就這個問題首先我想要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
28114.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
28135.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
法官個人對於死刑純廢的主觀想法並不重要因為憲法的解釋是要依據客觀存在的價值體系法官不會因為他個人價值的偏好去取代憲法的價值所以死刑要不要廢除的這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
28136.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
28153.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
他其實是問題是說大法官可不可能經由憲法的解釋去廢除死刑應該是這樣的一個問題那就這個問題也就是說從憲法的目前憲法建構的價值體系裡面死刑是不是合憲還是違憲那就這個問題來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
28157.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
28173.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
我的結論應該就是不管是從113憲判8號他從生命權的保障去著眼或者是其他大法官他從國家刑法權手段的這個憲法保留事項去 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
28174.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
28203.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
探討目前來講就是死刑作為國家刑罰權的手段的這一點是沒有違憲的那在沒有違憲的前提之下要不要廢除死刑那我覺得這個是民主程序要去解決的因為您剛剛提到了我們一一三年憲判制第八號的判決所以我們特別把它設定的七項程序保障列出來我想您很熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
28204.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
28233.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
那所以本席在這邊要接著追問因為剛剛您也有提到我們這七項裡面前六項實務上多已逐步落實那部分已透過這個法服制度或內部改革在進行所以您是否認為這六項就前面六項的程序保障已經足以對被告實質具有公平的訴訟權利保障請您檢答這個部分是不是這前面六項就夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
28234.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
28256.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
不要看第七項我要講的就是說目前實務上確實已經在做這六項所以這六項就足夠了那這第七項您覺得它是可能辦得到的嗎要一致決各級法院合議庭一致決那您支持或反對這個一致決的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
28259.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
28269.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
這個我覺得是一個程序上的問題就是說從我第一個我想就問您是非題這個一致決您支持或反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
28271.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
28297.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
就是這第七項的 要各級法院合議庭須一致決妳認同嗎 妳認同要一致決嗎她的前提 我覺得就有商榷的餘地啦也就是說從程序上的觀點做不到嘛 對不對 一致決是不可能的是不是可能 這個都不是我們說的你要她每一審所有法官都判死 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
28298.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
28308.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
那這個是幾乎是不可能好 沒關係雖然您說這個是不是可能的你無法來這個回答那所以您支持這個一致決的設計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
28310.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
28335.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
我的我的問題是說他有一個前提問題我覺得他是關於那個刑法是不是就有死刑這件實體法規定是不是合憲的一個申請其實適不適合納入那個程序法的合憲性要件這個我覺得是值得商榷的那尤其是不是刑法他本來就規定有死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
28336.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
28356.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
不是我的意思是說是不是需要一字決他才合憲這樣的論述是有一點點需要討論的而且一字決這件事情是現在我們的法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法都沒有的那大法官提出這樣的一個可能大家會覺得很突兀主要是因為在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
28357.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
28383.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
辯論的過程當中他也沒有就是說大家並沒有聚焦在這個地方所以可能大家都沒有呈現這個焦點以至於判決出來了之後大家就會覺得這個部分是沒有受到就是比較充分的辯論跟討論那所以如果您當年當年您就在憲法法庭你會支持這種結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
28385.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
28405.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
這個我沒有辦法回答假設性的問題妳還是可以坦誠一點回答因為大家也在看妳的態度還有立場我剛剛的那個回答其實已經有就是說就是審判的範圍跟程序的保障這個部分是需要去討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
28406.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
28426.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
我們的憲法不該偷偷改變我們社會對死刑的共識所以本席在這裡本席也表達本席的立場很清楚就是台灣現在應該保留死刑這不僅是法律問題這更是社會正義跟民意的交匯點 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
28427.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
28451.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
我們社會上有超過八成以上的民眾不贊成實質廢死 八成以上因為很多人擔心如果一旦我們國家的最高刑法死刑廢除了治安將惡化 而惡犯無所畏懼所以我們不能讓法律它成為冰冷的文字忽略了民眾的恐懼與憤怒 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
28453.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
28471.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
那也有人說這個廢除死刑是文明進步的象徵但是本席更相信真正的文明進步是既能懲治邪惡讓惡徒畏懼也能夠保護好人防止無辜的蒙冤您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
28473.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
28494.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
我目前也認為就目前我們的整體社會秩序跟民意還沒有達到廢除死刑的共識而且我也認為就是說它的前提應該是被告跟被害人的權益都要受到尊重跟兼顧尤其是被害人的家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
28495.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
28510.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
也就是說被害人家屬不管他是不是願意去原諒被告或者是他拒絕去原諒被告這個都是他的自主選擇權我們都應該要尊重好 謝謝您那接著本席要進入第二題第二題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
28514.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
28532.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
有關司法遷移在實施憲政體制而且賦予法院司法審查權的國家像美國還有很多先進的民主國家司法遷移已經成為許多法官奉行的司法理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
28533.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
28554.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
您應該知道司法遷移吧我想您的法學素養也是非常好的所以本席第一個想問的就是說司法遷移對您而言是什麼這個大概就是司法自治吧也就是我們就是依法審判司法遷移只是一個自治嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
28556.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
28581.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
就是他在面對 除了是依法審判之外在面對一些其他權力衝突的時候在什麼時候介入他必須要持有的態度那所以像在當代民主社會中立法者他是代表人民的意志我們是民主憲政的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
28583.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
28610.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
經過政黨政治在國會的討論協商整個民主程序形成的法律這樣多元的整合是整個代議政治的基石所以請問當法律的核限性受到挑戰時大法官是否應該謹慎的介入立法裁量您認為違憲審查的最低介入門檻界限是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
28613.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
28626.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
這個問題很抽象可以請委員再具體一點嗎其實很簡單就是立法院是我們中華民國最高的立法機關立法院通過的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
28627.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
28647.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
司法院他應該不是立法院的這個上級機關所以對於立法通過的這樣的一個法案那大法官介入您覺得這個最低介入門檻是什麼可以任意介入嗎還是應該多謹慎的介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
28648.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
28664.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
這個部分我想我們向來的那個司法院的釋字的解釋先例他有去闡釋這個界線他有什麼他有去闡釋那個的界線也就是說原則上他的那個程序的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
28666.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
28684.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
就是他的程序審查他通常他就有一個比較寬鬆就是有一個標準在那實體的內容的話當然就要看有沒有抵觸到憲法的基本原則我本席就在跟您討論這個我們也觀察到很多您剛剛講的解釋文像四字204號228號477號 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
28688.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
28715.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
有太多過去大法官解釋他都再三的強調一件事立法裁量是憲法賦予立法機關的自由領域可是我們觀察到現在近來市縣機關的憲法法庭有越來越嚴格的審查密度以及越來越侵入立法裁量權範圍的趨勢所以這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
28716.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
28740.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
本席想表達的就是說我們的法官 大法官們其實都是學有專精 這個法學素養非常好但是也是屬於學歷優 可是背景純粹單一都是法學出身 同質性高但是立法院是來自全國民眾的名義 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
28742.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
28753.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
113席的立委是帶著不同區域的民眾的民意來到立法院包含不同的領域教育 經濟不同的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
28755.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
28783.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
這樣的一個民意來到立法院有等於說從我們整個我們國家的我們從社會的底層到頂層我們從山邊到海邊從本島到離島我們這113席的立委他是代表全國的民意在這裡制定出來的法令法條這個我們大法官可以任意的這樣子介入嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
28785.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
28802.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
您的看法委員如果講任意當然就不行那是不是這個司法遷移是不是應該謹慎世界各國還有過去很多的大法官都是這樣的一個態度所以本席要請你表達您針對司法遷移您的態度我的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
28807.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
28832.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
所以就是剛才講的那對於這個過去對於這個立法院通過的法條但是呢這個大法官就這樣子有很多呢介入否決您的看法你都沒有了解有這樣的所謂的介入或者是那個當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
28834.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
28861.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
對於那個有沒有違反了憲法的基本原則大法官還是要去做審查這個是無可避免的審查是OK但是要不要介入所謂的審查跟介入這個怎麼樣去定義最後判決出來包含你看刑法他有死刑剛剛我們講刑法有死刑可是大法官他怎麼可以他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
28863.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
28891.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
解釋出來以後他要一致決這個就違反啊您剛也講啊沒有 我的意思是說我要講的就是說其實如果是法治國原則的話各個領域都必須要受到拘束本席覺得您對司法遷移似乎沒有很重視但是因為時間關係本席要進入我們今天第三個本席要跟您請教也要聽您的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
28893.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
28913.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
就是您應該了解什麼是麥卡錫主義麥卡錫主義有聽過有聽過不熟悉嗎請說就是像幾百年前的中世紀就是所謂的獵巫現象您了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
28915.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
28942.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
請問委員要問的是就是好比如說幾百年前的中世紀人們呢因為這個無知或是恐懼點燃了這個獵巫的火把那也就是說對於很多的事情沒有任何的證據然後就隨便的栽贓或隨便的入罪所以我們今年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
28943.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
28953.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
所以台灣今年我們114年台灣社會現在正陷入一種麥卡錫主義的陰影您的看法呢你還是不知道我不是不知道我是要請問一下委員指的是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
28964.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
28991.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
說陷入這樣的陰影指的是什麼樣的事件或者是針對什麼樣的事情麥卡錫主義我花一點時間是在50年代我不是說這個主義我是說我原想要問說目前社會上所以你知道麥卡錫主義了了解現在社會上對於很多這個立場不同的人比如說現在我們的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
28993.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
29019.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
有很多的民代媒體甚至國安單位或者是匿名帳號對於人民或政黨進行無證據的指控甚至指控為什麼共諜紅色滲透共產黨中共同路人這種指控讓台灣陷入一種麥卡錫主義的意念您不知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
29025.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
29043.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
所以我原想要問的是什麼那對於這樣的麥卡錫主義現象您的看法是不是確實存在這樣的一個現象它是一個事實問題啊所以我沒有辦法去做回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
29045.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
29068.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
現在很多啊 社會上好 那本席具體的來問好了如果有公權力或是輿論的勢力對異議者進行無證據的政治標籤和懲罰是否構成了對基本權的侵害我這樣問好了抽象的問題當然會構成那具體的案例是不是 好 譬如說譬如說 我再具體一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
29069.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
29086.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
沒有任何證據可能這個有些人他只是出席某些場合見了某些人然後就被貼標籤或指責說是舔共是中共同路人是共產黨你覺得這樣是不是侵犯了所謂基本權對當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
29089.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
29106.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
委員問的這些問題其實都是一個假設性的問題沒有假設性,現在都發生,您很少看一些媒體或輿論嗎?不是,我的意思是說,它到底是確實的情節是什麼?這樣子無證據的指控,這樣的行為是否違憲?是否有侵害基本權? |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
29114.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
29142.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
如果照委員講的所謂無證據的指控那他當然是有可能侵害了他的權利是就是這樣但是到底現在都這樣怎麼樣的情況這個我們當然就是要個案來認定這個是作為法官沒有辦法去回答這樣算不算那樣算不算我要有具體的案例看到相關的事證但現在您沒辦法判定但剛剛您已經回答了以這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
29144.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
29171.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
譬如說我們的憲法我們是保障我們的民眾思想包括言論各方面的自由那甚至剛剛本席說的沒有任何的證據隨便看到出席某些場合他就直接指控而且就貼標籤而且大肆的撻伐這個應該就危害了整個的基本權也是違憲的行為吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
29177.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
29182.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
我還有時間委員是要回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
29185.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
29214.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
因為抽象的問題如果照這個構成要件符合當然是但是具體的情況是怎麼樣我沒有辦法回答這樣子也就是說如果他真的是無故地去做這樣假設去個中國大陸回來就被貼為舔共或者是共諜或是紅色滲透這樣的指控是不是就是違憲好謝謝徐新委員也謝謝貝提敏兩位相看兩無言 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
29216.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
29222.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
现在休息十分钟休息之后进行对大法官被提名人林丽颖检察官审查事宜现在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
29815.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
29832.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
報告全院委員會我們現在繼續開會進行審查大法官被提名人林立穎檢察官之資格及是否私人相關事項我們現在請被提名人林立穎檢察官說明時間為十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
29849.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
29864.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生大家好 我是林麗瑩目前為台灣高等檢察署主任檢察官並自民國111年1月起迄今調最高檢察署辦事服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
29865.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
29880.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
今天很榮幸以大法官被提名人身份前來大院接受審查我的家庭學歷及經歷請詳盡簡介及我的自傳今天僅簡單重點說明並略加補充如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
29882.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
29911.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
个人自小在公教环境成长教育向为父母所重求学过程也较为顺利民国76年于台大法律系毕业后继续在台大法研所攻读硕士学位研究所我选择进入公法组虽然之后职业生涯从事刑事法领域为主的检察官工作不过研究所阶段的学习也累积了宪法行政法等公法基础 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
29912.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
29933.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
碩士畢業當年以交換學生至奧地利維也納大學交流,返國後短暫在剛成立沒有多久的行政院大陸委員會法政處服務數月後,從此執牙迄今將近三十年主要都是擔任各級檢察署檢察官及檢察行政工作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
29935.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
29957.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
擔任一審檢察官期間 法政列車進入司法改革新里程當時有敢於檢察官定位不明 擔心檢察權行政化後易受政治干擾便和陳瑞仁等一群對檢察制度有理想的基層檢察官共同發起設立檢察官改革協會 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
29958.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
29972.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
呼籲捍衛檢察官司法官屬性健全檢察人士制度使檢察官辦案不受來自上級或政治的干預獲得基層檢察官及民間司改團體廣大迴響及支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
29973.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
29998.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
此一檢改運動持續多年許多改革訴求也陸續獲得法務部正面的回應今日的法務部檢察官人事審議委員會票選主任檢察官法官法關於檢察官身份定位檢查一體陽光化及指令權界限等規定均為多年來檢改的具體成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
29999.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
30015.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
經歷檢察官改革運動88年全國司法改革會議不僅刑事訴訟法在法治人權要求下空前大變動檢察制度也一直面臨挑戰又再度喚起我研究的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
30016.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
30031.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
由於個人深感德國法治下定位檢察官為法治國守護人的理念強調檢察官中立客觀義務追訴犯罪同時必須兼顧人權保障才是檢查制度的核心價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
30033.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
30047.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
為探究學歷根本個人毅然申請留職停薪從88年底至92年間前往德國進修主要研究刑事訴訟法特別是有關檢察官職權的內容與定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
30048.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
30068.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
此次傅德進修重點不在學位,而是實地深入了解德國刑事司法的實務,因此積極進行法院實務參訪、見習、觀摩刑事審判、審前準備工作、參審和議庭審理程序,對德國刑事審判實務有更直接的體認。 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
30069.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
30092.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
此外 當時我國尚無裁判憲法審查制度德國的憲法訴願則早已深入其公民社會而我國憲法訴訟法中的裁判憲法審查即引自德國的憲法訴願幾乎每個月 德國聯邦憲法法院就會有重要的裁判出現媒體都會加以報導評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
30094.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
30111.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
縱然也常有憲法法院是第四審的批評但同時也顯示該院判決不僅對司法實務也對公民社會有深廣的影響力特別是刑事法領域不乏觀涉到個人權利的憲法訴願決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
30113.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
30135.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
堅強的邏輯論證背後顯露著具有生命力的人權思想及價值讓我深深體認民主法制的規格與深度是國家現代化不可或缺的基石相信我國實施的憲法法庭的新制也將會讓憲法意識廣泛進入台灣公民社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
30137.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
30153.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
而由於德國是歐盟歐洲理事會的重要成員國因此歐盟法歐洲人權公約也成為司法實務及學術研究不可或缺的一環縱然留德時間有限但四年的研究與實務間隙 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
30155.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
30167.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
對德國刑事司法、歐盟刑事法制、歐洲人權法院有更深入的理解也影響日後我參與國內法制作業、司法改革業務的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
30168.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
30185.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
英國92年自德國留學返國後奉調法務部檢察司工作承辦刑事訴訟法相關業務當時司長蔡碧玉女士給我除了檢察官工作外司法行政業務的啟蒙個人收獲良多 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
30186.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
30211.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
而在檢察司期間適逢司法院釋字第585號釋憲案因此負責承辦法務部參與釋憲辯論的籌備工作之後也曾受大法官會議之邀參與釋字第654號在押被告與監辯護人自由溝通權第665號重罪羈押條款要件意見徵詢會議而開始接觸釋憲業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
30215.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
30236.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
此外,歸建檢查機關後,我仍參與法務部與德國洽簽受刑人移交協定工作,這是法務部第一件與歐洲國家簽訂的刑事司法互助協定。我國刑事判決並因此獲得德國承認,並陸續移交多位德國受刑人返回德國。 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
30237.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
30249.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
那以下呢簡短說明我司法行政主管的歷練一百零五年一至八月間個人從台灣高等檢察署檢察官奉調到司法院擔任政風處長一職時間雖短但對 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
30252.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
30272.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
司法風紀維護與監督業務有更具體的接觸同年9月在調任法務部綜合規劃司司長一職主要任務為同籌全全國司法改革國事會議法務部的幕僚作業並列席司改國事會議因此中官自 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
30273.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
30297.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
法務部檢察司服務以來對於近二十年刑事訴訟法相關法案以及相關修法經過我多有參與並了解也因此多次參與外部學術研討會擔任報告人或語談人因此本職檢查工作外我仍從事刑事法的研究工作同時也在司法官學院擔任檢查實務講座傳承檢查實務經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
30301.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
30319.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
最後以限職和挑戰待結語目前個人在最高檢察署辦事除了一般非常上訴業務外主要負責最高法院刑事大法庭言辭辯論業務此外並協助法務部因應憲法法庭有關刑事法憲法訴訟除協助賺你意見外並擔任訴訟代理人參與言辭陳述我的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
30324.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
30335.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
總長邢太昭總給予充分尊重讓我有很大的發揮空間目前工作重心均為終審法律意見的研擬以及關涉刑事法憲法爭議的研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
30337.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
30361.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
刑事訴訟法向來被稱為憲法的側陣儀不論是訴訟程序法規或個案裁判動輒牽動憲法基本權爭議個人認為國家追訴犯罪的任務與保障基本人權同為憲法誡命如何平衡兩者除了立法者的立法行程外憲法法庭的大法官扮演了個人基本權的守門人 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
30363.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
30382.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
憲法訴訟法自111年初正式施行以來憲法法庭做了多件有關刑事法案的判決去年憲法法庭共作出11件判決其中就有7件為關於刑事實體法或程序法可預見的未來將有更多涉及刑事法領域的憲法徵訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
30383.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
30406.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
個人有公法研究的基礎加上刑事法包括實體法與訴訟法的實務經驗跟學術研究自認為對於憲法爭議更具敏感度也有熱誠參與憲法訴訟的審判尤其擔任檢察官的經驗更能掌握國家追訴犯罪的公義與相關訴訟人權包括被告與被害人的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
30407.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
30427.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
很期待有機會承擔起憲法及人權守護者的任務的挑戰個人認為大法官被賦予獨佔的憲法解釋權富有續造憲法的任務但即便如此大法官亦不應高於憲法因大法官作為釋憲者也承擔了維持法治國秩序功能的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
30429.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
30454.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
應謹慎避免超越憲法解釋的界限並尊重其他憲法機關的權責如果獲得大院同意我擔任大法官職務我將秉持以上的信念中立客觀並各尊憲法獨立審判謝謝各位並請不吝指教謝謝被提名人林檢察官的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
30456.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
30483.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
現在我們開始進行委員的詢問首先我們請張雅琳委員詢問蘇清泉委員請準備謝謝主席有請林立穎大法官麻煩被提名人請在板 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
30493.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
30509.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
委員好您好就是司法院大法官這幾年來呢攸關國家憲政制度的推動也協助國家奠定許多重要法案的一些論點因此對於時事和民生我想要跟被提名人來做一些請教首先呢就是有關於這次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
30510.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
30524.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
土城發生了兩名姐妹遭受46歲的性性男子亂刀砍傷導致不幸身亡這件震驚社會的不幸事件我想有許多的思考我簡單整理了一下一些相關的事件的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
30525.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
30543.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
首先是在整個案發前我自己整理的這個從案發前到7月7日案發殺害總共有五個機會我覺得好像我們可以來檢討一下首先就是針對於說我想在這個一開始案發前其實它是已經在取得保護令的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
30544.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
30573.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
那前一天呢其實這個加害人已經違反保護令去這個住處大吵大鬧而且毀損了一些物品那我認為再來接下來就是關鍵的措施點第二點跟措施點第三點這樣子在這兩個公權力介入的時間點上面檢察官認為這是情節輕微但是證明就像剛剛說的他其實已經跑到受害人家都大吵大鬧了而且是已經有在保護令的狀態之下這其實已經是第一個警訊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
30575.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
30599.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
老師呢隔天家事法庭法官也沒有進一步的裁定加害人去接受輔導處遇的計畫我認為不論是檢察官或者是法官其實都沒有實質的具體的作為認為加害人是情緒不穩定恐怕會釀成大禍的一個可能性所以呢我想請教被提名人就是在您豐富的一個檢察官的生涯裡面一定有 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
30600.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
30622.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
偵辦過許多案件那面對這樣子一個不幸的案件呢我們可以怎麼樣去確保被害人的生命安全專家和學者其實也有一些提醒就是保護令的核發前後會是關係人情緒最激動的時候都希望大家可以多注意但是我們不可能只叫民眾自己多注意嘛對不對我們應該還是有一些實質的做法所以我想要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
30623.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
30636.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
被提名來討論我們有沒有可能來參考一些英國的案例例如說像這個2021年英國的家庭暴力法案它大幅的加強了對家暴受害者的法律保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
30637.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
30655.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
首先呢 就是對於施暴者的一個限制措施它是可以量身訂做的一些限制的機制就例如說它可以要求施暴者接受行為矯正課程啦或是酒飲啦 藥物啦 治療等等等等的而且更不一樣的地方是他們的法院可以並備賦予明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
30657.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
30675.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
的權利命令電子監控甚至可以施令我們這個施暴者要佩戴電子標記可能是腳療之類的來監測他是否有遵守同時呢施暴者也有通報的義務要向警方提供現在的住址等資訊的更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
30676.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
30697.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
讓政府可以去追蹤如果需要的話他還可以規範禁止施暴者在特定距離出現禁止透過電話或網路聯繫受害人那這個做法在2023年事辦之後呢中部地區針對500名高風險的家暴嫌苛者在出獄後強制佩戴GPS電子腳鐐 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
30699.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
30724.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
這個成效其實蠻不錯的大概有2700個受害人免於遭受服刑中的施暴者騷擾所以我想請教就是說像英國這麼重視人權的國家對於加害人的保障其實也都開始使用像這樣子的電子標示的方式來確保我們這些人不會被受害那我也想請教您認為經過這個事件我們是否也應該要來思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
30725.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
30738.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
納入這樣子的一個電子標誌的可行性不能夠讓我們的家保保護令只是一張行政命令而是可以實際保護我們被害人的保護傘可不可以請您發表您的一些想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
30740.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
30760.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
謝謝委員的提問對這個案件也表達遺憾不過我就不對個案評論但是委員有提供很多國外的案例來供我們參考尤其他們的制度像電子監控這樣的制度其實目前電子監控設備在我國也其實有引進的 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
30761.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
30788.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
那目前最初剛開始是在做性侵害犯的這個假釋期間的這個保護管束的這個附帶的一個措施那這幾年也慢慢就引進作為交保被告的防逃機制之一那看起來成效不能說完美但是事實上可以提升有效的提升這些比如說防止他去做繼續做危害行為的這個目的可以監測他到底在哪裡對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
30790.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
30803.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
這個效果是不錯的所以目前如果可以試辦到對比如說在保護令可以附加這種電子監控那其實應該效果會更好因為就我所知保護令常常是要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
30804.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
30823.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
不得去離被害人幾公尺住家幾公尺之內不能靠近辦公室幾公尺之內不能靠近其實如果是只有這樣子的命令一張紙其實很難執行重視我們現在其實有一些警力或者說是社工在輔助但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
30824.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
30844.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
人力畢竟是有限的而且時間那麼長那我想電子監控確實是一個非常不錯的也謝謝委員這種提示那當然如果大院可以通過相關的立法的話那我想可能就可以立刻讓這個制度可以實現讓受害家暴的被害人可以更多保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
30844.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
30867.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
那這可以如果就聽起來就是你的立場是其實蠻支持的往這個方向來給我們被害人或是這些家暴的受害者可以有更多的一些保障對不對那接下來我也想要請教一樣是在兒少保護的這個領域也是一樣是一個爭議的案件就是之前黃子嬌在創意私訪的一個案件當時呢他去年被查出持有兒少性剝削影像 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
30868.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
30881.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
但是初期檢察官只有對他作出緩起訴結果導致社會強烈的反彈民間高度的關注跟不滿最後是發回續刑偵查最終在五月的時候將他正式起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
30882.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
30904.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
這個事件其實是反映了我們目前的制度上面面對兒少性影響性剝削這些案件的時候我們對於持有行為的嚴重性跟社會期待之間其實存在著落差也凸顯出檢查體系第一時間對此類的兒少保護意識和法律適用還是有檢討跟精進的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
30906.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
30923.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
所以當時黃子嬌他會被還起訴我記得那時候我有看那個書他裡面是寫說因為他認為黃子嬌態度良好且持有的少年性向只有供他自己看並沒有散佈或販售因此只給他還起訴兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
30925.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
30950.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
那雖然說根據刑事訴訟法第253條之一的規定檢察官得參酌刑法第57條所列情況及公共利益斟酌是否對被告為緩起訴處分但是我認為這件事情其實是這個持有的行為其實是牽涉到兒少保護的一個核心價值因為他的影像可能會擴散到其他的外流會帶來很大的一個實質影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
30952.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
30959.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
那這已經不是單純個案可以衡量的範疇也抵觸了整個社會對於兒少保護的一個要求跟公共利益的基本底線 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
30960.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
30986.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
所以呢如果使用緩起訴就會顯示出我們對於兒少保護觀念並沒有這個觀念呢其實並沒有在檢察官所認定的公共利益但也會削弱司法對於兒少性剝削犯罪的防治意志也可能造成社會的一個錯誤的示範效應所以這件事情呢其實蠻值得檢討我們現行的緩起訴制度對特定的犯罪類型是否應設限 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
30987.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
31015.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
或增設明確的排除條款來符合公共利益與兒少最佳利益的要求那目前呢其實司法官呢其實是有一些相關的一個課程讓檢察官學習兒少訓問的一個技巧來減少對被害兒少的二次傷害但是在整體的兒少保護制度我們其實是很少去針對於兒少保護和起訴之間來進行討論這也就會造成了所謂的認知的落差也難以落實真正的兒少最佳利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
31019.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
31034.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
所以我想請教就是說您長期擔任檢察官您認為檢察官在面對涉及兒少的刑事案件時我們應該如何妥適的運用起訴還起訴或不起訴等處分權限才能夠真正的落實兒少保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
31037.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
31060.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
關於兒少保護我因為之前擔任主任檢察官的期間大概有三年也在婦幼組如果我回想我們當時會運用到譬如說起訴大概就是性侵害案件或者說是比較嚴重的一些妨礙性自主的案件甚至是集團性的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
31062.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
31078.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
會還起訴的其實不多通常是所謂的兩小無猜的案件那因為兩小無猜現在只要這個一方未滿一定的歲數就會有構成這個一定的刑責所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
31079.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
31100.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
當時也許雙方是有感情的只是父母反對那這時候我們會透過一些這個庭外的機制雙方如果都可以和解父母也可以接受的話就會進行緩起訴那至於不起訴那當然如果是證據不足的即使他是重罪我們證據不足也只能不起訴處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
31101.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
31127.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
那就像剛才委員您提到的其實第一審檢察官所做的緩起訴不進入法院的緩起訴或這個不起訴其實還是有監督機制的他還是可以去救濟像剛才委員您提到的那個案件其實我們高檢署就是有撤銷發揮要他再行偵查那這個也是一個我們司法機關自己內部的一個過濾審查機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
31131.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
31149.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
這件事情最主要是想要表達就是說我們可能對於兒少因為一開始檢察官在做這個緩起訴的時候他其實是沒有理解到這件事情對兒少的影響那我想這也是我們希望整個整個體系啦司法體系裡面都可以更理解這個兒少的這個概念這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
31152.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
31175.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
一樣繼續是兒少相關的議題就是說我們現在因為大法官其實是人事未定所以我們憲法法庭的審理程序陷入停擺其實有很多的重要案件無法受理其實有一件事情非常非常受到許多社會的關注就是兒少性侵案件的追溯失效的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
31176.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
31202.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
好 那這個問題我就合併了待會我也會去講轉型正義好 這個也是追溯時效的一個問題就是在根據法務部的統計自民國93年到113年底已經有1040件性侵案件因為時效屆滿 遭檢察官不起訴這代表有1040個勇敢提出指控的受害 被害人連法院大門都無法跨進一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
31202.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
31224.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
這不只是法律制度的缺失也對他們其實是第二次的傷害所以說時效制度原意其實是要保障證據穩定與訴訟效率但是在兒少性侵案件中卻往往與被害人創傷沉默長期壓抑的實際狀況產生衝突其實我們不能夠忽視這樣子的一個制度性的排除跟壓迫所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
31225.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
31246.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
也許將來極有可能需要透過憲法層次的審查檢視我們現行的追溯實相是否違反憲法所保障的訴訟權與人性尊嚴是我認為是當前憲法法庭不容忽視的一個重要課題那其實呢這幾年不管是很多的民間團體像人本利新啊其實他們都揭發了相關的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
31247.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
31266.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
像是有一個去年4月報導者有報導一個2023年有一位匿名叫S的他在事發中超過20年才向他的母校國小提出投訴可是最後還是因為超過了追溯期而無法起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
31268.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
31292.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
根據我們刑法第八十條針對性侵的這些相關案件最長其實是可以達到三十年了但是這項延長是至2006年7月1日修正施行之後才開始適用將原先的二十年拉成三十年但是如果是發生在這之前的即便他提告都會被一御追溯時效追溯時效為由駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
31294.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
31306.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
所以呢我想就是其實澳洲的許多的澳洲的皇家委員會的調查性侵的被害人其實平均要超過23.6年才有辦法訴說自己的創傷經歷男性有更長 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
31308.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
31335.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
所以刑法追溯時效制度的設計是否在特定情況下其實已經構成了對憲法保障的訴訟權跟人性尊嚴的侵害我認為這個是一個非常關鍵的地方我也認為我們必須要重新檢討目前的追溯時效的一個設計所以我想請問您認為延長這一項兒少性侵案您認為是否可以延長或者是取消才能夠讓我們的被害人真正有足夠的時間去告罰得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
31336.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
31338.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
讓加害者得到應有的懲罰呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
31339.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
31365.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
謝謝委員的提問關於這個問題也是我們很重視的問題我個人也非常重視我留學德國一陣子那也知道德國對於性侵害相關的追溯權時效他對於受害人的追溯權時效他的起算點如果他是在幼年被性侵的話他的時效起算是從他成年之後才開始起算 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
31366.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
31395.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
除了德國之外各國都有不同的針對性侵害犯的追溯權時效他有做特別的設計讓他可以拉長延長或取消甚至是取消沒錯有一些國際公約也認為應該要做取消時效追溯的任務那麼我覺得第一個階段我們可以做的我覺得還是在大院的手裡只要大院願意支持這樣的法案通過的話應該速度會更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
31396.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
31413.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
我想這個其實但是因為大法官還是蠻重要又要來解釋這件事情所以我還是會有這樣子的期待不過聽起來您應該是支持往這個方向去努力的對不對好那接下來也是一樣其實我有特別關注到您在朱慶恩冤案的一個堅持跟努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
31414.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
31429.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
就是即便當事人其實已經過世了可是你沒有放棄追求司法的正義持續推動這個非常上述與再審讓這個當事人在去世22年之後獲判無罪我認為這是為無辜者洗刷冤屈 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
31430.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
31453.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
而且也創下我國檢察官成功為已故被告人平反的司法先例我也非常的感謝您對於法治與人權保障的一個努力那接下來就想要請教可是我們還有許多的受害者到現在還是沒有得到真正的平反那最主要就是說在很多的政治檔案條例通過之後呢很多人才知道他的家人死亡的真相是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
31455.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
31468.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
這些都是在2019年之後才發生的在這之前其實是沒有辦法得到這些資訊可是現在一樣殺人罪的追溯時效為30年可是解嚴現在都已經超過38年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
31470.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
31490.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
依據法律不溯及既往這線其實是在現在的法律架構之下它無法獲得補償可是就如同您剛有提到就是說德國其實都有很多更能夠去看到這些困境這個制度上面去做一些調整不管是德國也好它其實在1979年就已經完全刪除了謀殺罪追訴權的時效 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
31494.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
31510.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
亚洲的韩国也在1995年制定了518民主化运动特别法以及迫害宪政秩序犯罪之公诉时效特别法那都有明文的去讲说要排除公诉时效也就是破坏宪政秩序罪与集体杀人罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
31525.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
31540.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
謝謝委員首先我要先澄清朱慶恩一案不是我一個人的我只是做其中的一個小螺絲釘其實這是我們司法體系我們內部自省很多人共同努力來促成平反的 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
31540.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
31557.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
那包括檢察界跟法院我們都共同為這件事情做一個平反是很多人的努力再次特別要提出說明也感謝很多一起合作的夥伴讓這件事情終於可以完成讓被害人的清白 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
31558.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
31577.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
至於這件案子真的也是拖了很久所以今天委員您提到就是說關於這種結構性的歷史性的這種迫害那我也覺得應該要有一個制度去做一個類似像它應該也是轉型正義的一環應該去做這些努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
31578.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
31591.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
我覺得這還是可以多方去討論就是說該如何突破它的追溯權的限制然後去追溯我比較擔心的是其實如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
31592.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
31609.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
平反像現在已經有很多歷史的重新的詮釋新的故事在讓我們了解但是如果是訴訟法上面的確實我們可能要從多方面去努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
31611.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
31630.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
我想這個部分因為它也是回到跟剛剛那個題目其實有點接近的就是性侵害的追溯時間好那我其實是蠻期待就是說未來如果您擔任這個大法官的時候其實是可以來做更多的就是針對這個題目來做一些說明因為其實我想最後一個因為時間有限我簡單來問我最後一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
31636.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
31666.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
如果您擔任大法官我們遇到這樣子的釋憲申請你認為我們應該如何平序平衡正當的法律程序與實質正義呢因為正當的程序跟法律實質之間其實追求的是一種動態的平衡正當的法律程序我們保障的是國家權利行使的正當性可是如果我們一昧俱力行事我們就會忽略個案中明顯的不正義就會造成法治變成是一個壓迫的工具所以我想這個是需要大家一起來努力的所以我想問一下您會如何平衡呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
31667.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
31692.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
其實剛才委員您提到的這些都是可能當然我不能去做假設性的問題然後我現在的身份也不適合去具體深入評論但是我想提出來各方面需要權衡的包括個人的基本權利第三人的權益還有社會的公共利益都是在憲法上做憲法審查的時候都必須要做衡量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
31693.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
31716.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
好我想這個因為轉型正義的路還很長未來我們就一起來努力謝謝謝謝張雅琳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人林檢察官的說明請請喝口水喝完水 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
31720.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
31743.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
好 謝謝接下來我們請蘇清泉委員請詢問好 謝謝主席也謝謝吳宗憲委員給我對話那我們請貝提敏人麻煩再請貝提敏人 林檢察官請上臺說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
31754.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
31779.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
好 林主任警察官 你好你好我今天問你五個問題我是一個心臟外科醫師所以我們醫學都是講實證醫學我也不喜歡講個案我們就用通案來講第一個問題看到這是美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
31781.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
31807.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
美國的人口有三億四千多萬人台灣的人口兩千三百四十四萬我們的人口不到美國的七%六點多%美國的大法官九個我們台灣的大法官有十五個那當然你可以講什麼不同那我今天要每個問題都要請你好好答因為你要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
31809.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
31838.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
被我們質詢我要好好的讓你答我不會一直講話那這個美國的九位大法官他還要接受各州聯邦法院送上來的案子宜蘭雜症一大堆那台灣的十五個大法官我們看他們不審理刑事跟民事的案件我請問我們的大法官是在忙什麼是在忙什麼你照理所指的回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
31840.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
31858.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
是謝謝委員提問關於就是這個四縣機關的人數其實各國規定不一樣那他不一定去跟一個國家的人口數成比例畢竟他是一個憲法的特殊救濟管道那有時候人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
31859.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
31883.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
其實九位大法官美國聯邦最高法院九位在各國看起來他是數目比較少的那大部分都會超過大概是12位以上15位那剛才提到就是說九位大法官處理這麼多疑難雜症那我們15位大法官處理的就是台灣這邊可能一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
31884.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
31904.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
案件可能無法跟美國聯邦最高法院他收到的案子來做比較不過兩個法院的案件都非常非常的多據統計其實美國一年聯邦最高法院會收到大概七八千件的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
31905.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
31925.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
七八千件沒錯但是他真正的受理的案件數呢可能只有幾十件因為他也有他有所謂的選案的機制也就是說不是所有的案件到了最高法院他就會必須審理那大部分會是因為覺得不是重要的案件或是還沒有成熟 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
31925.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
31946.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
其實到了最高法院他要處理的問題都是重要的憲政問題或重要美國的就是如委員您說的沒錯他除了憲法問題之外他還要處理的是一般法律審上訴的問題所以呢他必須是重要的法律問題憲法問題他才會處理我要問的就是相對於美國這個還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
31948.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
31970.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
各州聯邦法院送上來的一大堆依然雜症,我們相對的,我們的大法官這邊,這都沒在處理嘛,沒處理這個嘛,他只有憲法。有這麼多事情嗎?有這麼多事嗎?我一直很懷疑,我們都是要量化嘛,據你所知,他們是在沒用什麼啦,我要把他帶回來是在沒用什麼啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
31971.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
31993.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
大綱送上來的案子行政院送上來什麼違憲什麼亂七八糟的案子你們是怎麼在處理還是說反正就是照執政黨的意思是這樣嗎你會這樣嗎因為我現在是被提名人陸平燈亮水鍋通的事情應該不會去管吧沒有錯我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
32001.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
32016.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
第二個案子,這個最近大家全台風動,就是一家五口,都大人大賤,都燒炭自殺,這其中有一個他的女婿是在我們屏東機場的軍官, |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
32021.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
32032.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
是在平常聽到他回去奔喪跟我們的人也有認識這種在台灣 現在的台灣有可能發生這種荒唐的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
32034.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
32057.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
還有剛剛前一個問說那個殺人的那個殺人的殺了太太跟小姨子那個是一個護理師男的護理師所以你現在你的其實主任檢察官你已經辦了很多刑事案件看你的那個學金力也非常完善那像台灣現在發生這種事情這個你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
32059.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
32086.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
因為你們是我們台灣法律最後的捍衛那你的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員提到這詐欺案件跟很多被害人家庭因為悲哉累累或者一生的積蓄被騙光所以走上絕路這個其實我們在辦案的過程中常常都會接觸到其實檢察官對被害人受害的罪感同身受 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
32087.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
32113.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
所以我們在打詐其實檢方真的是使盡吃奶之力我可以這麼說想盡辦法像委員如果有注意的話我們還曾經呼籲之前就是呼籲跟各行政部門結合我們認為打詐不能只是在後端的偵查必須在前端就開始做行政管理管制所以有大院接受大院大院也支持我們這樣的看法其實通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
32116.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
32145.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
詐欺 打詐的詐為條例那這個是特別法通過之後呢 我們也積極實施甚至最近出現一些問題可能還會再就修法補救特別是賠償被害人這個部分這個齁 這個他是去騙這個叫他拿卡出來說買黃金啊 什麼東東的然後他真的用他的卡去買去給他用額度他也給他錢耶第一個月 第二個月就給他一些MORAS |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
32146.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
32158.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
我們也領到五萬、七萬,到了第三個月、第四個月,他要欠的錢就不要再勞了,不要再勞了就叫討債人、討債公司來,討債公司來就說不然你站在家裡住,這就是成人人,就真的站在家裡住,住了還攀不過去,整個街坊都找不開, |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
32169.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
32195.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
這種事情我一直覺得檢察官或者是司法體系你們的那個養成都很嚴格但是有一點就是都在同溫層都在那個小圈圈你們講的就是法律問題聽一聽 聽一個小時我就頭暈了不像我們醫生每天都面臨生死啊我們社會性比較強我覺得你們這一塊你們要去補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
32196.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
32224.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
你們這個對社會的實務上人性啊或者是現在打詐騙人騙人的經驗花式一大堆你們的社會性不足你們要怎麼去補強不然每天在法院裡面在檢察署裡面都是在那邊法條在那邊打詐你們就有點像那個牧師啊牧師都在那邊轉社會性都不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
32225.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
32252.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
我每次在教會有時候講一下我都跟他們講說你們要融入社會檢察官檢察體系我看這一方面也要補強你的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員指教這確實這個委員說的我們會盡全力努力就是加強我們的這個各類的這個制式的精進不過這個打詐因為我們都會跟警方合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
32254.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
32277.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
這個詐騙的手法推陳出新他雖然詐騙手法很多種但是他都利用人性的這個是萬變不離其宗就是利用人心貪便宜通常我們覺得現在事後看大家都會覺得怎麼會受這個怎麼會相信呢這個怎麼會受騙呢可是在當下那個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
32279.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
32304.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
會立令置婚還有你們對於這些重大詐騙的你們的刑責也太輕了像我們上次這個IMB習近平就宜蘭啊還有還有外民代表牽扯在裡面一審判16年到二審就給他減輕人還在外面遊蕩還在那邊玩然後呢還搞不好要繼續再詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
32307.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
32335.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
我會覺得你們那個良心是落差太大那這種已經覺得是罪大惡極譬如說這害死五個人你們現在好像也沒什麼動作你懂我意思嗎所以這個你們要加強這樣子我們沒有辦法難怪我們在總統520被民調顯示你們司法司法不被信任排第二名 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
32337.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
32355.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
所以這個你要怎麼來加強我們會共同努力當然就是司法不被信賴常常民調就是司法的不信任度都不高但是我也從另外一個觀點給委員參考就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
32357.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
32380.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
可是事實上大概民眾有什麼難解的問題或者碰到什麼社會問題他們通常會說請檢察官出來請檢察官出來主持公道那常常又要檢察官跳出來主持公義其實也許有時候就是因為信賴或者期待很高所以對我們的批評會更多這個我們當然都受教 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
32382.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
32408.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
我們都很尊重專業像我就非常尊重專業我不懂得像我就閉嘴聆聽但是我們對你們的期許很高希望你們做但是你們做出來的事情要不能跟我們的落差太大這樣的話就對你們的信任就降低這樣你們當大法官我們就沒有成就感了來 第三個問題瑞士 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
32412.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
32433.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
妳有贊成有條件的廢死嗎?還是妳...我是認為這個死刑議題在台灣社會是一個高度爭議的問題,那要不要廢死應該是要由尊重民意,要由政治部門來做決定。那你們現在等於是實質廢死, |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
32435.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
32460.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
有五六個關卡 七半個關卡他是說死刑是核限的 目前死刑是核限的違憲 核限還是違憲 還是你贊成死刑目前我是檢察官 那我依法只要有死刑我們就依法執行 對 按照法律來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
32461.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
32487.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
那裡面有兩項就是說有精神障礙的不得判死刑有精神障礙的不得強解這個精神狀態是有階段性所以有時候裝潢賣傻也可以那要寫一些精神鑑定的診斷書也不是非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
32489.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
32513.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
只要自己有念點醫學的書是可以蒙蔽過醫婦人員所以這個在做判定的時候我希望我們檢查體系、法官體系跟醫生還有書記官要聯合要合一一起去判定像我做過那些禁制產的我也都非常慎重 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
32514.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
32517.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
因為近日產那個比較單純像這個金帳要脫罪的這個你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
32523.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
32544.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
這關於這個精神狀態那這個大法官確實下下了兩個這個門檻第一個是在審判中這個如果訴訟能力顯然不足的話自我辯護能力顯然不足的話不能判死三個他還這個如果有限制這個有第十九條第二項就是他的這個有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
32547.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
32562.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
這個19條第二項的即使不到這個完全不能為自主的狀況也不能判死刑再來就是到了這個判決確定即使已經判決確定死刑定業那如果他在執行的階段呢有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
32564.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
32591.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
無受刑能力因為這個精神身體上面的障礙沒有受刑能力也不可以執行死刑那這個大法官只提出來這樣子的這個意見至於具體的標準是什麼這確實我們食物界還在探索摸索形成將來確實這個一定是要透過醫學鑑定才有辦法去做認定就是你們要非常慎重我還有兩個題目所以時間有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
32594.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
32620.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
壓人取共這個圖要改的比較溫馨就是說只要在臉書或什麼弄一個圖出來說檢察官怎麼樣怎麼樣就當庭就生壓到現在還是壓著我會覺得會有落差反差像我們最近我們一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
32623.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
32647.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
就是罷免連署的什麼回往各支華還有那個有點偽造文書等等就一直押一直押一直押這個你沒有做嘛各縣市屏東那邊一大堆所以我很忙啊所以我請問你是在這一種的不合比例的你的看法怎麼樣我講話很含細人來聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
32653.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
32670.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
首先我要先澄清目前因為我是司法官基於司法官倫理對於個案我是不能做評論的不過既然委員提問我很誠懇的就一般我們羈押的時務提出一些我的經驗上面的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
32671.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
32696.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
那首先羈押檢察官只有申請權那申請之後要由法院來決定那法院要判斷的是依照刑事訴訟法的要件來判斷不只要有犯罪嫌疑重大還要有比如說餘逃或有篡證滅供滅證之餘而且還要有必要非押不可的情況他才會准許檢察官的申請的羈押的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
32697.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
32714.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
那通常決定要不要羈押除了要看罪名之外還要看他犯罪的規模如果罪名有人說五年要符合比例原則不要為押而押 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
32718.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
32726.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
押人取供是罪要不得的所以這個是希望你秉持這樣來最後一個問題319槍擊案好久好久了你有經歷過我請問你這個319這個案子是真的還是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
32740.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
32748.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
我到現在還懷疑,我每次問詹祺賢,他都不跟我講,他都笑笑的,你是當時參加的檢察官, |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
32753.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
32778.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
我現在澄清我對那個個案我不是承辦檢察官我是這個就是立法院當時有通過一個319槍擊事件真相調查特別委員會這個條例那後來因為在大法官釋憲找法務部去當關係機關那我們要去表示意見那我是負責撰寫法務部這個言辭意見的這個檢察官之一這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
32779.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
32805.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
你們檢查這些案子是多久可以解密一般多久解密是10年20年還是多久不知道這個檢察官的卷證是這樣子判決確定之後那可以來申請月卷那申請月卷有一定的資格跟要件有一些是保密的都可以揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
32808.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
32830.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
如果說是有涉及其他的機密的話那確實就不能揭露前一陣子我們李秀蓮前副總統有去拜會羅志強希望他提出總統副總統選辦法修正那他的訴求就是很重要的一點就是希望能更改 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
32832.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
32861.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
因為現在是總統候選人如果有被槍擊或者怎麼樣發生生命的話可以暫停選舉那他希望把副總統被槍擊或者是被打死有怎麼可以列入選舉暫停因為他感覺一點點他是主要要被幹掉的我不知道是真的假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
32862.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
32863.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
那這個你的看法怎麼樣還有1分34秒讓你表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
32870.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
32894.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
這個議題大概是政策方面的問題啦那如果大院認為這個適當的話應該也可以考慮那我個人就不方便在這邊表示意見好那妳最後妳就說妳這個是319妳是妳有承辦的檢察官那妳講一下妳的我不是我只是後半段法律的部分妳講講妳的觀點因為我們尊重專業嘛讓我們聽一聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
32898.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
32917.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
還有59秒其實有很多重大的案件在台灣歷史上重大的案件沒有偵破的然後大家各說各話眾說紛紜的很多像桃園也有一個很重大的劉邦勇 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
32918.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
32939.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
對 這件案子也是簡介一直不斷的也會在甚至內部有在重新檢視的過程檢警都在重新檢視不過我們作為執法人員就是這樣只看證據證據到哪裡辦到哪裡 說到哪裡這樣子 是好 希望你本著你的初衷謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
32942.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
32963.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
好 謝謝蘇清泉委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人林檢察官說明 謝謝被提名人請喝口水 你喝完水我就要開始了 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
32967.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
32972.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
好 谢谢 接下来我们请林义军委员询问 林义军委员请准备 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
32992.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
32998.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
謝謝主席有請被提名人麻煩再請被提名人請上台說明委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
33012.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
33028.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
你好 先恭喜你獲得總統提名的大法官接下來本席就有幾個問題政體想要詢問首先第一個問題就是說先請問被提名人這次你被賴總統提名為大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
33028.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
33050.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
因為外界都在批評說因為是綠油油的背景所以被提名那民間監督的團體的話也質疑說提名你是有政治上面的考量不符合大法官應有的中立和超然這樣加上你曾經擔任過法務部的綜合規劃師的司長曾參與賴政府的司法的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
33050.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
33063.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
讓大家質疑說你與賴政府立場的距離太近了那請問被提名人你有沒有什麼說明解釋還是你覺得自己被提名為大法官的原因是什麼那簡單回答就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
33066.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
33087.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
我跟現在的執政部門完全沒有我之前完全不認識也沒有見過面這個只有在電視上看過那參與因為我是公務員是檢察官當然會調法務部檢察司或者擔任法務部的綜合規劃司司長負責推動業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
33088.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
33113.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
那麼檢察官或者在法務系統擔任過職務之後去擔任大法官其實各國的實力非常多而且他們認為這個是讓大法官多元的一種很正常的方式不論是美國德國他們從法務系統司法部系統或者檢察官去擔任大法官的都非常的多甚至有擔任院長的都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
33114.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
33135.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
所以我覺得檢察官去擔任大法官其實是讓這個憲法法庭的意見更多元尤其檢察官對於人權的看法可能會譬如說在訴訟刑事訴訟的人權保障這一塊我們可能就不會只看被告我們還會重視被害人這一面 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
33136.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
33160.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
的觀點特別是這個其他相關訴訟關係人證人啊鑑定人這個經常在我們檢察官辦案過程中都會體會到他們在訴訟過程當中需要被照顧或重視的權利你的意思是說反正我現在重點就是說你被提名的話是跟綠油有背景是沒有關係的是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
33161.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
33189.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
是的我沒有好那我再接下來問題就是請問被提名人你在檢察官的整個的生涯中提起上訴案件的裁判結果最後都是被如果被撤銷原判決或駁回的比例高嗎還有你認為任何的公權力的執行是不是都應該不可以濫用不可以違反比例原則還是都應該要用合法還有用一些正當妥適的方式為之呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
33191.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
33202.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
第一個問題是提起上述案件的裁判結果最後被撤銷原判決的駁回這樣的比例高不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
33204.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
33226.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
目前在刑事訴訟當中因為如果是地院到高院的話他被撤銷然後在高院的層次他是自為判決那高院的撤銷之後自為判決比例是蠻高的但是如果是高院的判決上訴到最高法院那現在的這個駁回率就非常高高達九成都是駁回的 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
33228.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
33241.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
那也許檢察官上訴的成功的比喻會高一點現在目前統計起來看是這樣那不過上訴最高法院因為他是法律上訴那非常嚴格那通常都是上訴駁回為多 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
33243.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
33259.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
那我看你是刑事訴訟法的專家嗎我想請問根據刑事的訴訟法的第228條的第三項規定上面有寫說實施偵查非有必要不得先行傳訊被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
33260.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
33285.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
此外我現在根據最高法院28年上制第的2510號的刑事判例要指上面有指出檢察官偵查犯罪並非必須詢問被告所以我看有可能被告在整個偵查中都沒有被傳喚然後去地檢署開庭詢問有可能在整個偵查中都沒有然後就會做成了不起訴的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
33285.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
33304.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
那至於偵查中要開幾庭呢?多久開一次庭呢?這也很難說是不是這樣?我的意思就是說雖然偵查中沒有一個定數但除非是被告屢傳不到還有故意不出庭這樣的被告才會被拘提被羈押或通緝對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
33306.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
33335.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
我先回答第一个问题,就是确实我们在侦查中不要一开始或没有必要就传讯被告,因为被传讯就是一个,即使是传讯,当然当事人心情都会有压力,我们就尽量不要给当事人,特别是那种看起来要不起诉处分的案件,就不要给当事人造成这么大的负担,所以会不先传唤被告或没有必要就不传唤被告这样子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
33336.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
33341.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
但是要起訴的案件目前按照我們的慣例起訴被告是一定會先詢問被告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
33343.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
33369.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
起碼要讓他知道他的案件在偵查中另外一個針對無罪推定的原則我看這是國際公認的刑事訴訟的基本原則這應該是所有人對法律的基本概念也就是說被告在沒有經過法院審判定罪之前其實誰也都不能說被告是有罪的尤其是檢察官所以說要證明被告到底有罪還是無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
33370.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
33376.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
被告是否整個會被收押最重要的關鍵就是在於檢察官的舉證的責任對吧是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
33377.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
33405.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
那為什麼我們的檢察官現在都有那麼大的權限呢那他們可以把被告先押起來然後再找證據還是進行押人取供的非法的拘捕的行為呢所以我想請問一下就是提名人你認為檢察官如果像我剛才說的這種情況若是濫權的羈押還有押人取供的做法這個做法是正確的嗎有沒有符合無罪推定的原則中最重要的檢察官的舉證責任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
33408.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
33420.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
這邊我想先澄清就是說檢察官沒有辦法押人直接押人檢察官在羈押這邊就只能申請法院由法院來審查符不符合法定的要件像101條 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
33422.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
33446.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
他首先要判斷犯罪嫌疑重不重大這時候檢察官就要舉證了再來呢這個階段檢察官要舉證證明必須要有餘逃或者有篡證滅證之餘那法官認為還要認為有沒有其他替代方式要羈押法院覺得有羈押的必要他才會裁定羈押被告所以不是檢察官說要押就押 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
33447.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
33464.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
像今天早上有另外一位我的尊敬的學姐政法官被提名人那也有委員質詢他對他說當時他就是說檢察官你如果要沒有自白你就要來申請羈押他是不准的 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
33465.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
33487.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
所以我想法官在這邊的控制這個審查檢察官申請有沒有道理是非常嚴格的其實我們的積壓目前的積壓率確實也沒有確實是跟在國際間比起來也沒有那麼高檢察官都非常謹慎不至於會押人取供這個也是法律所不允許的跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
33489.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
33515.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
雖然剛才說的抓人的那個GPR還是必須經過法院的整個審理但是你也覺得說現在我們台灣的檢察官卻經常其實說真的大家也都知道都是自由新政要抓人就抓人要放人就放人然後檢察官的話對沒有犯罪證據的人還有對網路上做個梗圖或許他PO了一個文的民眾都可以說抓就抓說收押就收押這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
33516.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
33532.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
但是對犯罪事實證明確定的是詐騙犯這些還是殺人犯竟然都可以隨便的縱容所以依據你的專業那我想請問一下就是羈押的案件通常要有哪些要件才能羈押還有你認為現在的檢察官為什麼會對拘捕和羈押同時會一起進行審查呢而且常常是漏夜進行馬拉松式的疲勞審訊在這樣充足的整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
33544.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
33570.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
程序下面法官常會被檢察官以有篡證之餘而被檢察官說服然後被檢察官說服整個同意生壓這樣是不是有違反憲法第八條有關人身自由的規定呢委員您大概提了好幾個層次的問題第一個問題是這個你可以簡單說一下你的想法你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
33572.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
33599.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
其實現在的羈押按照規定就是拘捕前置主義也就是說即使是被檢察官傳喚來的話那通常檢察官會有一個預知說被逮捕其實它就是一個預知程序然後最主要是要送法院申請羈押那會有這樣的程序但是羈押的要件正如我剛才說的法院會嚴格去審查這些羈押的要件我特別強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
33601.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
33619.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
具體逮捕目前按照提審法被具體逮捕的當事人除了他有被他要按照程序被有權力告知他可以請律師可以保持緘默可以請求調查他有力的證據等等之外呢他可以申請提審他說你亂抓人我要馬上見法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
33620.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
33638.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
這個是任何國民他被具體逮捕他認為他被不合法對待的時候就可以立刻申請提審這個是先補充那羈押要件我剛剛說的這不是說檢察官要押就可以押人那法官要審查第一個犯罪嫌疑有沒有重大由檢察官來舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
33639.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
33664.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
第二個除了犯罪嫌疑重大他就是必須要證明有事實足認他有逃亡之餘或者他有跟這個其他共犯或證人有篡證滅證的可能性那這個要有這些要件那法官認為有羈押的必要才會有檢察官有法官來裁定羈押檢察官沒有辦法檢察官就只有申請權 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
33666.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
33695.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
不能自己決定我要逮人我要押人就可以那檢察官即使有拘捕其實你是內行人你一定也知道其實這其中當然也包含了法官的自由行政還有經驗他整個隱藏在其中因為偵查中的案件不是十分的明朗有時光以檢察官他就會以卷證還有書證 物證 人證那請問你的經驗你認為法官跟檢察官如何去認定這種罪嫌重大呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
33696.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
33725.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
那還有怎麼樣判斷他會不會有逃亡的可能還有勾串的證人呢這樣還有認為他怎麼樣羈押的必要性呢這些那麼多年的經驗我想這些是一些抽象的文字就像是我現在舉例就資深法官嘛他有不少的經驗但是都不見得可能未必都能夠精準的到位但偏偏現在我們的司法院的地院的法官很多都是非常資淺的法官就像是我現在舉例嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
33725.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
33732.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
就像是醫院現在急診是之前的醫師他要如何解救緊急危險致命的病患呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
33736.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
33759.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
就是如果剛才委員您的提問是第一審的法官太年輕經驗不足我不能判斷但是因為羈押他這個裁定是對人身自由很嚴重的侵害所以都有救濟程序通常決定羈押一審法官決定羈押之後呢其實還是會有裁定抗告到高院去 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
33760.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
33779.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
高院還會是做審查高院的法官就非常有經驗了那他不是地院決定了就拍板定案了還是有救濟程序的我們是法治國家任何一個決定侵害就限制人身制限制自由權利的都會有救濟程序那最後還是會有高院有經驗的法官來做審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
33781.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
33810.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
所以我剛才看你認為我們的檢察官辦案的時候偵查及起訴或不起訴的權限之大甚至濫權其實是超過任何一個國家的檢察官但是這樣是不是你就是應該要就是說像你剛才有提的就是進行司法改革並且可以汰除這些不適合的那些檢察官以維護被害人及被告人的人權然後這樣才能真正的落實的司法改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
33811.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
33835.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
因為我剛才有看你在口頭上整個報告上面也有提及到說參與基層檢查改革所以你擔心檢查權行政化後可能容易受到政治上面的干預所以共同的發起設立了檢察官的改革協會另外也在擔任檢查行政職務的期間曾經參與全國施改國事的會議及施改 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
33836.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
33850.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
司法改革的修法然後也希望檢察官辦案不要受到上級和政治的干預那我想要請問一下提名的那你現在認為目前的檢查改革和司法改革有效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
33853.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
33877.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
這個有不有效是要受社會公平我自己不能做評斷不過我是覺得整個檢查體系的風氣確實一直在進步當中那我們的這個監督機制也越來越嚴格像剛才委員您提到我自傳裡頭有提到的就是有參與這個全國司改國式會議那裡頭一個很重要的一個項目就是要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
33878.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
33904.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
在檢視這個法官檢察官的淘汰機制那現在法官法新的也就是這次改國是會議之後又修了一輪就是關於檢察官評鑑跟法官評鑑制度包括送職務法庭的這個程序那都把它再完備化最重要的就是加入外部委員他怕我們官官相護所以不管現在是法官評鑑委員會還是檢察官評鑑委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
33908.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
33927.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
通常自己系統的代表就是檢察官代表是大概三位現在是三位然後三位是法官六位六位是其他人士那還有三位是律師也就是檢察官就少數人大部分都是外部參與的評鑑委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
33930.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
33948.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
來擔保就是說我們是不會關關相護這是評鑑委員會的機制還有呢發動怎麼樣發動評鑑呢因為當事人我們現在那個心智也富以前是只有團體喔要像機關跟團體才來才能申請檢察官評或法官評鑑現在是當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
33949.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
33971.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
個人你覺得法官檢察官不公平你也可以直接跟這個評鑑委員會會提起說要評鑑法官檢察官所以目前目前的這個機制其實是相當的嚴格當然如果各界如果認為還需要精進我們都樂觀其成那大院如果覺得還不夠需要修正其實也是可以在這個還是可以再討論的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
33972.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
34001.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
好 那我再請教一下就是說我剛才也看到你在問卷中有提到你在最高檢察署的期間曾經參與你一句檢察總長的非常上述書相信你也應該也認為冤案其實救濟不利常年以來都是我國司法急需克服的整個的難題然後你也長期的推動司法改革所以相信對於民間司改基金會有個經典的冤案的案例就是水利專家前經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
34003.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
34020.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
水利署的河川局的賴丁普的局長的冤案我想你應該是也是有印象所以他查不到他任何的收回的證據但是在99年他遭判決了7年的有期徒刑監察院100年的時候公布調查報告為賴丁普的平反冤情 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
34025.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
34045.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
檢察總長一百零一年還有一百零二年前後兩次為他提起了非常上訴但都遭到最高法院的草率的駁回然後民間司改會對最高的法院提起了兩次的個案的評鑒要求懲處不適任的法官並持續的協助平反的冤案 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
34046.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
34075.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
根據了整個監察院100年的調查報告因為檢察官僅憑毫無證據的人力的一個記帳本而已就無視欠缺而被告收賄事實的證據這樣的堅持上訴明顯已經違反了整個的證據的法則無疑是基於有罪推定的心態違反了正當法律的整個程序的原則那所以我想要請問一下被提名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
34075.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
34100.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
如果冤案永遠是冤案那就算檢查總長提出了非常的上訴仍然孤城無力難回天啊仍然還是冤獄嘛那更何況是現在正在偵查中受到不當羈押不當偵訊的人那請問將來如果你擔任大法官對於冤獄違憲這些案件你會如何面對處理你會願意受理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
34104.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
34105.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
因為我現在只是問你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
34124.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
34148.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
問你的想法如果你是大法官你會願意嗎當然這些我目前對於案情不是很清楚也不了解後面到底有什麼樣的不公不義的狀況那如果真的有不公平或者有冤案有冤情我們都願意來加以平反其實目前我現在在最高檢察署我們經常在處理的就是確定的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
34148.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
34169.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
那覺得有冤情我們都在研目前也有幾個案件都在做研究這是我們的日常了包括一般的非常請求非常上訴還有重要的有組成專案小組在做審查的都有那我們努力做我們盡本分當然我們也都尊重法院的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
34169.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
34180.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
畢竟審檢不是一家法院有法院把關的標準我們檢察官檢察部門會盡量在我們的能力範圍內盡量為當事人爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
34183.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
34206.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
那我剛才也從你的自傳中了解你一直以來都是擔任檢察官我想請問一下如果你長期在檢察體系這些服務最高還是承認為主任檢察官這個位置相信你一定非常的了解審檢分立原則就是表示法官與檢察官在執行職權的時候彼此是獨立而且是互不干涉的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
34207.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
34216.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
那相信大家對你最大的質疑就是你是檢察官出身的長期在檢查系統裡面任職完全沒有當過法官好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝林議員的詢問也謝謝被提名人我們林檢察長林檢察官的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
34245.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
34272.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
好 接下來我們請林柱英委員詢問陳永康委員請準備謝謝主席有請我們的林大法官提名人麻煩再請大法官被提名的林檢察官說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
34285.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
34305.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
剛剛蘇欽前委員在提到對您詢答當中他特別舉出台灣跟美國的例子用台灣的人口跟美國人口做比較他說台灣人口只有2342萬而美國有3.4億但是他們的最高聯邦的大法官只有9位可是我們有15位 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
34305.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
34324.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
那麼我很特別關注您的回應您特別提到其實這個真的跟人口無關如果跟人口有關的話台灣只有美國人口的百分之六點八那麼我們現在可能只能有不到百分之一那表示說我們其實只能有一位大法官都不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
34325.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
34341.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
所以說我認為其實真正的重點應該是在於各國的制度怎麼樣來維護制度是非常重要的但是人口之外本席是女性 您也是女性所以事實上我比較關心的其實是性別平權的這樣的一個議題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
34342.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
34361.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
我們都知道就是在我們的以過去的經驗當中為了落實消除對婦女一切歧視公約那麼司法院近年也持續的在推動所謂的性別主流化的計畫希望營造一個性別友善的司法環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
34362.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
34371.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
從我所做的這樣的一個表格可以看得出來其實這十年來其實女性的法官人數已經逐年的增加現在反而是我們女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
34373.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
34396.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
的法官佔的比例超過了50%來到了52.6%我想台灣在性別平權上面的進步跟進展應該是在全方位都有所提升不過以我們現在大法官的比例來看的話我們可以看到目前如果大法官可以全數同意的話女性大法官的比例也可以有機會首度來到47% |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
34399.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
34403.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
也就是說因為我們現任的大法官四位女性 四位男性 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
34404.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
34433.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
那麼這一次被提名的有三位女性四位男性這樣全數如果通過的話變成女性七位男性八位所以我認為其實在這個部分如果真的有機會全部都通過的話那麼當然對於性別的部分是可以有機會能夠達到一個更接近就是所有的性別都沒有三分之一這樣子其實是非常好的一個狀況沒有超過三分之一所以我想就叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
34433.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
34450.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
因為我們知道其實對於民眾來講剛剛我知道蠻多的委員都會就個案來提起被提名人的一些看法但是其實回歸到整體的大法官所解決的相信他絕對不是個案的問題他必須一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
34451.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
34469.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
通案而且更上位的一個原則跟看法所以我想要從第一個問題來看身為女性的所謂司法從業人員再到接下來您可能成為女性的大法官在憲法的層次當中多元性別您如何來做保障或者是詮釋又或者是推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
34471.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
34491.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
謝謝委員提問確實其實在很多的申請大法官或申請憲法法庭做這個審查憲法審查的案件當中會涉及平等權的審查那特別像性別平等其實案例也很多像我們的民法裡頭像4.365 410還有470關於這個所謂的侵權行使的 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
34499.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
34525.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
還有這個財產這個夫妻財產分配的問題那甚至到了還有這個子女應該誰父姓誰母姓這些問題都是我們大法官透過性別平等加以調整那特別是在勞工權婦女的保障上像807條也是一個很好的解釋那我特別欣賞它裡頭還提到一段這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
34527.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
34554.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
婦女勞工不應該在夜間工作你應該不是禁止她夜間工作而是提出一個合理的調整方案去保障她的人身安全跟身體健康那我覺得我們未來大概在這個憲法法庭的視線也應該都會很注意這個性別平等特別是現在又更是性別多元的這個年代 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
34555.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
34583.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
這個是一個很大這個很有發展的憲法議題沒錯因為其實我們身為民意代表今天站在這裡就是幫助民眾把對於我們現在的大法官提名人他的背景他的看法讓全民知道然後來為全民來抽絲剝繭了解現在站在我們面前的這位大法官是不是事任就如同您剛剛所特別提到的其實很多時候因為現在藍白他們提出了憲訴法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
34584.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
34604.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
導致了很多民眾都會認為說 大法官的存在 到底他對人民的影響是什麼這絕對不是只是所謂政黨之爭 更不是所謂的政治操作就如同您剛剛所舉例的 其實這都跟一般民眾息息相關根據本席現在所做的整理 也請背景演員來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
34605.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
34621.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
我們在所得到的資料當中截至114年5月為止事實上可以提起申請釋憲的身份有人民法院地方自治團體跟立法委員而人民所申請的釋憲的件數高達7355件佔的比率是98.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
34628.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
34644.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
言下之意其實大法官或者是憲法法庭的存在這些四線案都是為了在他們窮盡所有各級的審所謂的法院審理制度之後作為最後一個保障的防線 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
34645.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
34665.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
所以我會認為大法官能不能夠具有站在人民跟憲法的守護者這樣一個上位概念是非常重要的那麼以目前所藍白修正通過的這樣的一個去年12月20號通過的憲法訴訟法的修正案導致現在我們的憲法法庭是無法運作的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
34665.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
34681.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
無法達到目前新法所規定的必須要10人以上審議然後9個人以上才能宣告違憲也就是說現在憲法法庭已經停擺了167天就如同剛剛你所特別舉出來的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
34681.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
34696.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
我也整理了一些案件讓大家來看也幫助現在在看直播的朋友了解就是到底憲法法庭以及大法官所受理的這些跟人民相關的權利義務的案件有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
34696.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
34720.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
比如說剛剛林貝婷女人也提到的有關於平等權的部分過去我們都認為說民法是以追隨父權為主但是在釋字第365號之後呢現在不是以父權優先而關於人身自由的部分警察不可以再隨意的臨檢危害到人民的權利自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
34720.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
34746.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
釋字第535號就是警察在對人民實施臨檢的時候是有其限制的另外有關於財產權的部分釋字第440號有關於國家機關在行使公權力的時候對於如果人民的財產有遭到損失或侵害的時候國家是必須要給予賠償另外有關工作權的部分剛剛前一位質詢您的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
34747.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
34762.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
林議局委員他是藥師出身我想他對於釋字第711號一定會特別有感因為過去的法令規定藥師只能在一個場域工作有了釋字第711號的解釋之後藥師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
34764.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
34780.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
的規定對於藥師職業的形成是不必造成限制所以是宣告違憲另外還有一個我想有關於言論自由的部分大家可能都沒有想到過去這個化妝品的廣告要先進行審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
34780.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
34808.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
但是在釋字第744號之後對於化妝品的廣告因為有其廣告的言論自由所以不用先進行審查本席要特別舉出來這些例子就是希望能夠透過今天對於大法官提名人的審議跟了解的過程當中我們也希望全民能夠感受到的是今天大法官的存在包括現在的憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
34809.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
34831.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
的停擺其實百分之九十以上是危害到了人民的權利跟義務我想這個部分林貝提名人你一定非常同意吧但是呢本席也稍微看了一下您的背景就是我知道您過去一直以來呢都是以這個所謂在刑事訴訟作為專長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
34833.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
34854.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
那我們知道其實刑法是對於人民來說是一個非常嚴厲的懲處在人民違反了刑法之後會給予這個一定經過法院的裁判之後的一定的刑法的裁量不論是服刑或是罰還那麼在您累積了過去的經驗之後接下來您要身為大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
34854.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
34873.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
但是身為大法官的時候您站在憲法這個部分您是必須保障憲法所給予人民的權利跟義務在這兩者之間喔你怎麼樣來把自己做一個身份上的轉換那麼會不會過去因為你比較專長的是在刑事訴訟的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
34874.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
34898.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
那你就會覺得說我就是要依法行政依這些法一審一審往上審之後你如何來判定我剛剛也聽到了許多的法令不論是民法我要釋法又或者是相關的這些法規的時候這個身份上面的轉換您如何依照憲法來保障人民的生命財產以及憲法所給予人民的權利義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
34900.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
34918.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
謝謝委員的提問我覺得憲法法庭它的組合確實是多元的所以要來自不同各種專業領域來一起審理憲法爭議的案件所以我相信在我的專長是刑事訴訟法那我也有一點公法的背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
34919.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
34942.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
至於在其他很多專業的領域像民法或者說是甚至一些公法領域我相信在憲法法庭它的這樣的組成之下我們可以互相激盪大家的基礎是會一樣的應該我會尊重其他在有專業方面領域的同仁的意見畢竟我還是被提名人這些都只能是假設性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
34943.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
34961.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
不過如果一般性的來講其實不管是刑事法領域或者民事法領域公法領域目前在憲法大法官的分配上都必須要有相關的領域的人進入才可以解決各方面人民碰到的爭議性的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
34962.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
34987.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
但是呢我也必須要強調就是目前在憲法法庭受理的案件當中呢其實刑事訴訟刑事法刑事法領域越來越重要越來越多我記得第一年111年那一年有20件判決只有刑事領域方面的是五件民事的也不多絕大部分是公法領域的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
34988.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
35003.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
到了112年20件也是20件案件終結20件但是裡頭就有9件幾乎是一半要是刑事法案件了到了113年更是超過一半11件裡頭有7件所以我相信我自己預測 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
35005.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
35018.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
未來可能會有更多的刑事法爭議的案件會進入大法庭進入憲法法庭就如其實委員感謝委員也把我這句話也提上來了就是刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
35022.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
35039.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
這是一位德國的學者他特別這樣提出來跟大家講說要很重視刑事訴訟法他動不動都會涉及到人民的權利義務那我想再補充一點就是檢察官背景的進入憲法法庭如果有檢察官背景進入的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
35040.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
35065.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
我們的看法會更多元一點我目前觀察大概大法在憲法法庭解釋的案件在刑事法領域都會比較是被告的人權但是被害人的這個訴訟權呢就比較照顧的少我去看再看看目前會討論到的就是4-805號而且是在少年刑事事件案件的程序裡頭他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
35067.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
35087.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
不過他提這個大法官已經提出來了這個被害人的訴訟參與權是憲法地位那我相信以後還可以再多在這方面努力讓我們的被害人的訴訟權可以更提升好我們期望就是接下來如果有所謂您所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
35087.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
35111.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
相關的刑事訴訟的背景能夠更健全台灣的司法體系那麼接下來我要問的這個也是一個現在非常夯的命題那就是AI人工智慧我們都知道其實過去我們講到的司法改革就是希望建構一個有效率而且便民的司法審判的制度跟程序但是AI的導入 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
35111.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
35133.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
到底可以如何來幫助我們的司法更有效率本稀有特別去稍微了解了一下在有關於司法效率提升的部分要減輕我們法官的工作簡化訴訟程序那您過去也曾經主著辦理過全國司改會的幕僚工作我相信對於司法改革你一定也很有想法那麼對於像現在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
35133.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
35155.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
透過AI近年司法院透過導入AI例如說開發AI的量刑資訊系統來提供職業的法官跟國民法官他們在類似的案件的量刑上面做一個裁量上趨勢的一個意見參考但是我們也知道其實AI它會有所謂的AI盲點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
35156.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
35176.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
如果我不知道這個林沛庭林人有沒有使用過現在現行的幾個市面上比較流行的比如說Gemini啊或是ChatGPT啊你有沒有上去真的問過他們問題ChatGPT免費的免費的有問過對不對我不知道你有沒有遇過就是他可以洋洋灑灑寫的貌似 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
35179.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
35203.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
正確但事實上如果你經過事實查核的時候他常常給你的訊息不見得是正確的沒錯會發現他會有錯誤的好那麼在這個部分我相信未來AI人工智慧導入我們相關的司法系統還是會是一個可可能的前進方向你怎麼來看如何透過AI的輔助來協助我們司法能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
35203.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
35226.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
架設一個更有效率但是又不侵害到個人隱私因為在很多的AI大數據跟系統當中會把許多的個案擺進去這兩者之間如何來做一個權衡如何在財產所謂智慧財產或制裁權或是個人隱私的部分跟司法獨立可以彼此能夠達到一個完美的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
35228.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
35253.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
好謝謝委員提問那這個是一個很新的議題那麼在司法系統裡頭引進AI其實已經討論很久了那就我了解司法院跟法務部其實都希望能夠引進AI的這種人工智慧那像現在的案件量非常的大去減輕司法人員的負擔那不過目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
35255.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
35281.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
這個專業型的AI其實是我對AI不是很了解這不是我的專業但是就我所知就是它還是有很多訓練上的就像委員所說盲點還有不容易訓練它的資料要為它很多資料來訓練它但是這個資料是不是是足以訓練它的資料這個目前還是有疑問的那我個人初步會認為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
35283.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
35300.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
就我這樣粗淺的有運用過AI的這個經驗上來看我覺得可以先幫忙處理一些比較大量但是是比較公式化公式化的對公式化的案件可以讓AI來處理還有呢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
35302.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
35312.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
針對司法詢問或司法有些民眾要來詢問一些訴訟的流程我覺得AI是一個很好的輔助機關輔助工具其實可以先從這個小的或者比較範圍或者比較不是那麼要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
35324.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
35347.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
類似人腦這樣子的活動還是可以仰賴AI來幫忙化解承擔一些工作量而且看起來好像會更讓民眾有親近的感覺因為您剛剛提到的當然就是AI的輔助的部分包括協助專業的法官或者是國民法官在一些比較已經具有一定公式化或格式化的部分來做一個資料參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
35348.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
35366.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
那麼但是我們也知道就像您剛剛提到的就是AI的訓練會進入大量的個資甚至於是大量的判例的部分那麼在這個所謂大量的個資的蒐集或者是進行分析的時候是不是也有可能會侵害到民眾的隱私或者是智慧財產權那麼在這個部分的話你又怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
35367.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
35388.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
喔沒錯 這個目前這個科技進步包括數位化甚至是到AI這種人工智慧所以會有一些新興的人權議題出現那麼司法 我相信司法院或法務部他們我們在研究AI輔助的工具的時候呢可能是會建立一道封閉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
35389.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
35405.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
就是单纯是比如说佛司法院的系统或佛保务部的系统它应该不是可以让外界去连线的系统那关于资料的处理其实因为现在不管是检方或者是法院端 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
35419.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
35439.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
包括我們內部的作業系統都必須特別做資安的考量好那麼其實剩下只需要最後一分鐘啦可能也就沒有時間再往下面的這個題目來做詢問但是在最後呢其實本席要非常提醒就是透過因為這個限速法的相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
35441.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
35462.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
這個法案的修法民眾開始更了解我們大法官的存在的必要性那麼所以說我也認為社會上對於我們整個司法的系統的過去有一些不了解或者是認為比較不信任的部分我也認為大法官必要把握機會讓民眾能夠更了解台灣的司法系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
35463.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
35486.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
那麼才不會在所謂的政治的鬥爭或操作之下反而讓我們的司法因為政治之間的這種所謂的藍白聯手底下大家的提問好像都覺得現在司法就已經成為政治的附庸我想這個完全是錯誤的可能也要仰賴接下來大法官能夠多跟民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
35489.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
35514.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
好 謝謝林柱英委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人林檢察官您的說明請坐請喝水好 謝謝接下來我們請陳永康委員詢問吳宗憲委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
35539.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
35547.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
主席有請大法官候選人林主任檢察官麻煩再請大法官被提名的林主任檢察官請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
35560.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
35588.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
委員好大法官候選人主任檢察官林女士你好我今天下午一直在聽取您對不同委員做的報告提及您的就學經過以及在國外研究的心得同時加入了我們司法系統從事檢察官的職業近30年來你努力不懈我在這邊表達非常敬佩 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
35589.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
35607.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
也感謝您對國家的付出那麼在您的報告裡面啊你曾經講過未來的大法官呢是具有司法憲法的解釋權但是呢大法官也不應該高於憲法那麼同時呢你也提到了如果將來擔任這個職務您會保持 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
35611.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
35634.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
中立客觀遵守憲法獨立審判這個東西對我們來講是非常重要的一個背書作為我們中華民國的國民這個守法遵法是我們的基本條件就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
35636.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
35659.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
面对了不同的情势下我们每一个国民都应该以遵守法律做我们的基本条件但是呢站在大法官的立场来看国家利益是超于政党利益但是在国家利益的前提下您又要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
35662.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
35687.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
維持每一個人民的基本權利所以奉公守法是我們人民的基本條件但是我從立法院的角度來看我們看到政府的這個政令可以改法條可以修以大法官的立場來看其實逐階不彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
35689.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
35718.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
節操不取所以奉公守節是比奉公守法的層級更上一層你對這個看法您覺得如何是的謝謝委員的提問我們說法律是最低的道德標準所以奉公守法是基本的是公務員應該遵守的那至於在道德層次的話那就是要看個人的節操跟品德謝謝您 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
35720.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
35744.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
這個我們最近聽到川普總統說對等關稅他並不只是經濟的問題他是跟國家安全有關我們也看到我們的這個關稅談判代表成員裡面有我們的國安局局長就表示我們也認同了對等關稅也是國安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
35746.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
35774.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
國家安全的問題並不只限於目前國安法的敘述那川普總統自認跟習近平主席他們是好朋友可以溝通所以美中是在一條道路上對向而來也許兩個國家的利益衝突但是呢如何溝通折衷妥協或者不退讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
35777.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
35802.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
這個脫鉤不斷鏈 鬥而不破每中雙方都知道對方的意圖跟想法意圖跟能力我們國內很多我們在立法院的同仁常常引用一句話司馬昭之心路人皆知為什麼路人皆知因為是同路人所以同路並不同道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
35803.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
35831.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
同道不同德同德不同心同心不同调因此用同路人来抹红抹黑是不客观缺乏法条依据的美国在1986年国会通过了高尼法案那么要求美国的总统要在任内要向国会提交国家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
35833.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
35857.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
戰略法的報告現在國家安全戰略所涵蓋的範疇包括了地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略所以在國家安全報告的底下他產生了國防報告軍事報告情報報告最主要的一個印太戰略報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
35858.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
35886.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
那麼川普總統在2019年的印太戰略報告這個裡面特別提到對台灣的立場以及支持的態度我想未來等川普今年的新的國家安全報告出來以後會修正他的印太戰略報告對台灣支持的立場會有更明確的說明那麼目前呢我們是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
35889.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
35915.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
正在發展我們的友好國家包括澳洲包括日本韓國乃至於菲律賓法國德國上個禮拜英國也公布了他的國家安全報告把上面的條件戰略因素啊經濟因素啊戰略環境啊預判未來的風險都做出報告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
35916.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
35943.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
我們國家至今沒有官方公布的國家安全戰略報告那麼沒有一個長期的戰略報告做預應而是等事件發生後政府來問如何反應如果有預應我們知道我自己的籌碼底線可以預估降低風險如果反應產生的結果可能付出的代價就比較高這個上面你可以看出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
35944.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
35973.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
基于国家利益国家的目标国家实力国内环境国际环境影响的因素综合评估有关两岸情势外交政策国防政策经济政策能源政策治安政策人口政策最后要的社会韧性那我们设定的国家安全在内的目的是什么呢促进繁荣社会和谐保护主权维护主权确保民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
35975.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
35993.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
強化安全和平必戰因為我們目前政府並沒有一個完整的國家安全戰略所以我們產生了很多的狀況就是對單一現象我們對賴總統的國安十七條的策略我們是表達支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
35994.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
36023.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
但是呢还是不够周延它并不能涵盖到国内外所有的因素而且许多的条例它是重复性对单一问题因此我们基于要支持国家强化安全我们提出国家安全战略法的一个概念各位看一下这个是啊去年的十月份中国大陆公布他十年来的二十二十项这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
36025.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
36052.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
有关的总体国家安全战略观那我们刚才在两边所列的是24项也就是说我们要以敌为师不足处武强现有已在执行的我们更要精进这个是我们的动机而是支持国家朝稳健发展避免风险国家安全战略法是大格局并不是国安法的条例 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].start |
36053.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].end |
36078.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].text |
比如說反滲透 防止侵中 賣台這些行為你要站在更宏觀的角度社會韌性 能源 醫療 科技同步發展那這個你可以看出來我們要強調社會韌性 民心安定經濟繁榮 軍事堅強 太和和平它在八個面向上都有不同的範疇定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].start |
36080.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].end |
36095.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].text |
那麼我們社會韌性防衛委員會提出了五個軸心那麼也談生出來了總統督導的特別委員會氣候變遷對策委員會韌性委員會健康台灣推動委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].start |
36096.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].end |
36126.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].text |
成業很好也有很多民間的專家共同參與它產生的結果因為它不是編制的一個政府機構所以它產生的結果要由各部會回去執行的時候這個成果並沒有納入年度的預算需求所以要變成政府的編制機構變成法律條文這個委員會的東西才能夠在編列預算有效執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].start |
36127.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].end |
36139.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].text |
因此我們的國防體制做個介紹我們是以體制的方式管理有總統國家安全戰略行政院國防部四個單位構成那麼體制中國安會是幕僚機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].start |
36142.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].end |
36157.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].text |
總統跟我們的國防法參考統帥權政大方針決定權緊急發布命令動員權根據第八條第九條二十四條行政院也有所謂的國防政策制定權督導所屬機關辦理國防有關事務權動員準備計劃擬定權緊急狀態徵用權民防組織成立權國防部就是國防事務權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].start |
36167.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].end |
36192.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].text |
那我们现在做出的建议其实是完全以宪政体制下国防权力分配给他一个提供强化就是国防重大政策决定权再加上总统有国家安全战略报告的核定权那么行政院就要提供报告的草案国防部就要中立这个草案的产生跨部会协调 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].start |
36193.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].end |
36216.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].text |
我們所有的目標是強化統帥權行政院增加他的責任義務公安部增大使命跟任務而不是部分院內同仁說這個叫侵犯統帥權這是違憲的因為他們根本不了解國家安全戰略的範疇來做解答那這個是目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].start |
36217.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].end |
36231.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].text |
組織的架構所謂虛線的部分就是協商而不是法律律定明確的職責那我們做出的建言就是由行政院向總統提報國家安全戰略總統核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].start |
36232.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].end |
36245.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].text |
然後由行政院把這個不管是機密版非機密版向立法院做報告立法院要進行預算審查去督導我們政府的執行所以這個構想的整個設計就是強化統帥權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].start |
36248.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].end |
36267.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].text |
增加行政院的責任義務擴大國防部的使命權所以這個跟侵犯統帥權的論述完全是不符的我想將來您如果在大法官的位置上統帥權事實上我們國家有統帥綱領 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].start |
36272.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].end |
36292.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].text |
這個從抗戰勝利以後日方提供協助一直到民國九十幾年李登輝總統我們國內都在修訂但是很少有我們的統帥真正去看這個統帥綱領因為國家安全戰略裡面含括的是哲學 科學 兵學以及用兵的藝術 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].start |
36293.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].end |
36314.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].text |
力限為高捏拿自己的底細知道底盤而不是去賭氣那下一個題目我要跟您講的就是站在我們憲法要維護國家主權的立場這張圖您可以看到就是我們中華民國公布的領海基線那麼聯合國海洋法公約在19 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].start |
36316.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].end |
36343.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].text |
二年通过一九九四年生效国际都根据这个来执行那么我们的行政院内政部也根据这个宣布的我们的领海基线二零一六年七月十二号这个海牙的南海仲裁庭判决的结果我们政府是完全不接受意思就是说我还是维持我原先对领土主权的宣誓 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].start |
36344.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].end |
36366.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].text |
那這裡面有一個明顯的就是所謂的民主礁也叫做黃岩島但是在這個上面各位看到的只是一個點因為我們國內不太重視運用科技顯示共同圖像在這個圖你看套上海圖這個圖在顯示出來你就發現黃岩島 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].start |
36372.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].end |
36386.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].text |
跟美济交啊几乎是同样尺寸一个黄岩岛可以容纳20个太平岛或20个东沙岛它的环交范围以我们做主权宣示划定领海基线将来呢我们就可以有权利申请 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].start |
36387.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].end |
36406.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].text |
經濟海域200里的經濟海域跟鄰近國家不管友好或是不友好的國家都會產生重疊區有重疊區就要進行溝通就要進行維護國家的權利那這個是我們非常重要維護主權的但是截至目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].start |
36407.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].end |
36434.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].text |
中國大陸跟這個菲律賓特別強調他們在黃岩島礁他的權利而我們政府沒有表態既沒有強調主權的伸張也沒有就管轄權執法或是匯江的行動我們希望未來如果擔任大法官對維護國家主權在憲法論述上的如何支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].start |
36436.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].end |
36461.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].text |
統帥權強化統帥權有一個完整的國家安全戰略使各部會的工作協調不只是陳峰垂直式的政策表達清晰可是水平性的跨部會協商這個條件比較弱我們需要是一個結構性的組織而不是各領域的人各個政黨人根據單一線上做論述我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].start |
36463.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].end |
36485.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].text |
候選人您未來如果有機會擔任大法官對於我們支持我們強化統帥權強化國家安全戰略的全局構想所以在各個面向包括產業包括能源包括海底電纜包括通訊包括金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].start |
36486.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].end |
36506.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].text |
包括社會福利這都是社會韌性再加上我們建立自主防衛的決心這兩個同步推進對外才是展示我們維護中華民國主權的決心跟信心我想請您就這上面兩點提出一點您簡單的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].start |
36508.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].end |
36522.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].text |
謝謝委員提問首先我非常感謝委員您花了很多時間其實我收穫良多了解很多以前我比較陌生的國防軍事甚至是外交領域的這些專業的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].start |
36526.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].end |
36551.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].text |
我現在是大法官被提名人將來還不確定是否會進入憲法法庭不過這個問題如果將來有可能要進入憲法法庭我是不太適合以這個身份來表示意見不過我覺得在進入憲法法庭的案件大法官要考量的是基本人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].start |
36552.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].end |
36579.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].text |
再來呢如果像這一類的有沒有涉及到這個什麼統帥權或者說是各部會的這個或者是行政院或立法院的權限那他涉及的是憲法機關權限的爭議問題那大法官要審查的界限就只有是他符不符合權力分立制衡原則那麼如果他有高度的政治性特別是機關爭議他都會涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].start |
36580.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].end |
36582.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].text |
政治問題那這部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].start |
36583.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].end |
36611.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].text |
大法官以我個人對我自己的信念在大法官執行憲法審查的職務要非常注意這個界限對於政治問題就盡量不要捲入政治漩渦除非它就是一個憲法權力分立或制衡的問題我只能比較抽象的簡單的做此說明也很謝謝委員給我這麼多的知識這個有很多是我第一次才看到聽到 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].start |
36613.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].end |
36638.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].text |
谢谢您表达看法我们作为一个中华民国国民我刚刚讲过了奉公守法如果担任了大法官就要奉公守节你的成绩要比我们格局更高你要看到是全国维护人民的基本利益但是如果在涉及到跨部会或跨院级的话有关国际关系维护我们中华民国权益的时候我希望立场要坚定看法要一致谢谢您 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].start |
36641.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].end |
36663.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].text |
謝謝陳永康委員的詢問,謝謝我們林被提名人主任檢察官的說明,請接下來第六位王美惠委員之詢問,以書面提出,我們列入記錄,刊登公報在接下來,今天登記第七號,吳宗憲委員請詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].start |
36674.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].end |
36698.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].text |
我們麻煩備題名人拜請備題名人林主任檢察官說明林主任你好我也好我是最後一位所以馬上就請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].start |
36699.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].end |
36709.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].text |
當了一輩子檢察官這是應該是第一次體會到疲勞訊問的感覺這是很多被告常跟我們講被疲勞訊問就是這種感覺不知道你有沒有這種感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].start |
36710.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].end |
36731.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].text |
訊問的時候也很疲勞我可以理解問比喻也是很辛苦我現在跟你請教一下我們來思考一個點我們先從羈押我先跟你討論一個羈押的問題民國84年剛好30年前當時的檢察官是自己可以決定羈不羈押因為當時你也經歷過那段時間檢察官可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].start |
36732.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].end |
36743.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].text |
主動可以直接說要羈押被告但是在4-392號其實他當時是認為這個部分是違憲的所以後來檢察官就沒有這個羈押權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].start |
36745.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].end |
36771.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].text |
其實很有趣的有一個民進黨在民國98年的時候曾經寫過一篇文章如果這篇文章放在今天我會以為是民眾黨寫的我把它念一下有興趣的人也可以上民進黨的網站拜讀他寫的內容就是司法獨立公正是民主國家的基礎司法人員手握積壓力氣其使用應該能夠通過最嚴格標準的檢驗才能 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].start |
36772.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].end |
36791.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].text |
將對人權的侵害降到最低這個有蔡英文前總統還有顧立雄部長等人都有在上面連署那我們的賴總統也曾經說過司法單位偵辦案件的手段就是壓人取共然後壓人當污點證人違反程序正義踐踏人權從此也傷害司法單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].start |
36792.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].end |
36806.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].text |
這些都是目前在任這些政治人物所寫的那我想請教您第一個問題就是你是否認同檢察官為了獲取被告的自白然後用押人取共的方式您是否認同這個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].start |
36807.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].end |
36834.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].text |
謝謝委員提問我相信委員跟我一樣就是檢察官經驗這麼多我們都知道我們的檢察官守則當然申請羈押要符合羈押的要件不可以以羈押手段來取共好 謝謝所以我想說這沒有錯啦我們都有一樣的共識所以羈押在我國這個制度其實它不是為了懲罰它是為了保全證據這個對或不對您說對或不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].start |
36836.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].end |
36851.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].text |
羈押是為了保全被告跟對也有保全證據包括就是因為他要他有一個羈押的適由是防止篡證滅證也就是他也有保全證據的這個功能所以不是一個懲罰不是懲罰他絕對不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].start |
36853.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].end |
36865.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].text |
所以在4.392號當時是動員勘案時期結束沒有多久當時的政府為了要繼續掌握他的行政高權所以他其實是反對這個議題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].start |
36868.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].end |
36885.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].text |
但是我們當時有幾位大法官包括施啟陽大法官翁岳昇 吳庚 王哲健這些大法官們他們並沒有選擇站在權力核心的那一側他站在保障人權以及維持我國憲政制度的那一側他就宣告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].start |
36886.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].end |
36914.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].text |
夾官擁有羈押權這個部分是違憲的所以我要提的這個點就是我看到的是以前的大法官他是勇於對抗當時執政而且那個時代他是有絕對權威的執政黨那個執政高權情況下當年的大法官是勇於跟他們對抗這個也是我現在希望現在的大法官也能夠擁有當時的那個風骨那個樣子的大法官的樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].start |
36918.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].end |
36938.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].text |
其實我覺得到最近我看到的政府是越來越走回黨國不分的時代所以我們看幾乎整個行政院就是聽總統的行政院其實各五權裡面真的除了立法院裡面的0.5權立法權還不認同政府之外其他五權裡面的4.5權幾乎都已經被 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].start |
36940.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].end |
36965.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].text |
那個總統拿下其實這個真的就走回以前行政威權黨國議題的那個時代那像今天我也在聽其他有立委在質詢其他的那個大法官被提名的甚至大法官被提名只要講到才化法等等跟目前狀況不一樣他還與待威脅的話都出來了我覺得立法委員的天職是監督政府絕對不是護航政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].start |
36965.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].end |
36976.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].text |
這是五權設計之下全世界三權設計之下立法權也都是監督行政權所以我也不知道說怎麼走到現在我們越來越走回 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].start |
36977.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].end |
37002.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].text |
走回黨國一體的那個時代所以這是我現在看到我們國家的現狀也是一個危險所以我也很期待我們選出來大法官是有那個勇氣除了你有足夠的專業之外要有那個勇氣跟政府say no告訴政府你違憲你做錯所以這就是我一直以來我對大法官的期待好那我再請教您 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].start |
37003.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].end |
37019.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].text |
下一個問題實行一致決我非常敬佩您在去年九月的時候你在高檢署的研討會裡面曾經有公開表示說一致決的要求實行判決一致決的要求會造成實務運作的困難您當時有點出這個實際的點當我們也再三講但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].start |
37023.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].end |
37049.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].text |
執政黨的立委以及執政黨的側翼律師們就說我們在胡說八道但是我們走過實務的我們憑良心講確實會造成此刑判決是很困難那我先請教您一個問題全世界有哪一個國家跟我們大法官要求此刑應經各級法院和議庭一致決包括市市省及法律省全世界地球上有哪一個國家有這樣的制度要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].start |
37051.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].end |
37068.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].text |
謝謝委員提問委員說全世界全地球我只能以我有限的我盡量去搜尋的這個結果來看目前要求對於任何案件要求是各省級 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].start |
37070.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].end |
37083.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].text |
除了第一審第二審第三審通通要一致決確實我沒有找到過再來就是當然就只有美國的陪審團他們在你不要學那個有一個很奇怪的立委講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].start |
37085.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].end |
37105.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].text |
有某一位立委啦在我談到市審及法律審沒有一個國家要求一字決有某一位立委跳出來說人家陪審團就要一字決陪審團跟法官其實不一樣所以美國的制度有陪審團也有法官一個認識一個用法不一樣的東西不能混為一談您是專業的檢察官請不要講政治的語言好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].start |
37106.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].end |
37120.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].text |
陪審團跟法官他設計就是不一樣一個認識一個用法在我國認識用法是有法官沒錯啦但是是不一樣的制度好那我再跟您說一下即使是美國上訴到聯邦最高法院的死刑也不需要一字決 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].start |
37121.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].end |
37135.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].text |
也就是說當初有一些我覺得在國會遇到一個狀況以及在社會遇到一個狀況就是不專業的人在法律上面不專業的法律人常常講著不專業的話但是專業的法律人又常常在這邊講著專業的謊話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].start |
37138.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].end |
37161.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].text |
而不講真話你說你是律師你說你曾經當過法官但你來這裡講的謊話騙全國國民當我們告訴國人說法律規定是這樣他可以站在這裡說我當過法官然後你什麼亂講但是這謊話是經不起打擊所以我我一直要求自己不可以講謊話我跟所有的人相處都這樣我不講謊話我可以選擇不講話但是我不講謊話因為謊話是經不起時間的考驗的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].start |
37165.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].end |
37184.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].text |
即便是美國即便是美國也沒有要求要到法律省到聯邦最高法院也要一致決並沒有這要求所以我國是全世界這個地球上唯一一個要求各省級包括市市省法律省對於死刑要一致決才可以下判決的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].start |
37186.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].end |
37205.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].text |
這部分我要先跟您說明一下好那我再請教你一個問題既然你是大法官的被提名人我也必須知道你知不知道大法官能做什麼以及不能做什麼大法官可以把自己當作是立法委員來創設死刑一字決的這個法律嗎可以嗎大法官可以取代立法者來立法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].start |
37208.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].end |
37226.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].text |
這個部分要分兩個層次來說如果大法官其實各國的大法官我想我們切重點不要繞圈子台灣目前在我們的釋憲慣例上那有時候如果是針對針對這是一個憲法的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].start |
37227.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].end |
37255.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].text |
譬如說要正當法律程序他確實會對立法者做一個要求譬如說之前釋字710號他說移民署你把人強制出境跟暫時收容你要給他救濟的機會這時候他就說你應該要讓他可以提出我簡單幫你講好了我知道你要講什麼但是你沒有講得很精確我如果講錯你可以說我講錯不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].start |
37256.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].end |
37284.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].text |
司法不是不能創設法律而是他必須在法律有漏洞的時候他才能創設法律他在法律沒有漏洞的時候司法是不能夠變成立法權喔但是法官他會利用判決他只能在法律有漏洞的時候他利用判決或是大法官他利用他的解釋去填補那個漏洞當然最後還是希望由立法院來去執行立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].start |
37284.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].end |
37300.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].text |
在三權分立國家是這樣在五權分立國家也是這樣您要說的是不是這個意思像您剛引的那個例子也是那一塊剛好法律有漏洞所以法官利用判決的方式去填補那個漏洞但是前提必須在法律有漏洞的情況下您的意思是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].start |
37301.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].end |
37327.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].text |
包括就是說有違憲的狀況違憲那是另外一回事法律跟憲法抵觸違憲那個是法律本原本存在那個跟立法權無關我想這個東西是一個重點好那所以我們提到了司法不是不能造法但是他必須在法律漏洞之下才能夠去造法但是呢法官評議多數決法院組織法的這個要求並沒有漏洞啊也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].start |
37327.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].end |
37351.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].text |
也就是說我們現在的大法官他要求法官一自決這東西真的就是造法因為法院組織法在這塊沒有漏洞我們法院的判決平易的時候只要是多數就可以了嘛他2比1這樣子就可以了嘛就會形成那個判決這個地方沒有漏洞所以大法官這個做法顯然是自己就違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].start |
37353.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].end |
37378.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].text |
你司法權就直接侵害了立法權我在這邊跟您報告所以司法權他只有在法律有漏洞的時候可以造法但是這次大法官他所謂的死刑判決要一致決這個地方沒有漏洞他卻造法這完全是不對這也就是看到我國的大法官過去那一批人他完全不像早期的是勇於對抗政府而是跟政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].start |
37379.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].end |
37398.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].text |
這搞在一起這個是我希望您如果有幸當大法官你要跟政府對抗要像個我就像個法律人像個司法官出身的我就敢跟執政者對抗所以我以前我在當檢察官的時候藍營執政時代我辦了很多藍營的人就那時候他們說我是綠色的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].start |
37400.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].end |
37422.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].text |
綠營執政我也辦了很多綠營的高官然後那時候又說我是藍營的檢察官所以我覺得但是我心中就是一樣持平的看證據在辦每一個案子這是我對自己的要求我也希望您有幸當大法官之後你也要堅持這個想法所以我覺得憲判八還有製造了更多的問題包括有一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].start |
37424.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].end |
37434.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].text |
這一次有37個死刑犯因為限判罷了關係他們可能都會回過頭去變成是他們要重新回過頭去法院審理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].start |
37435.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].end |
37454.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].text |
至少有兩個就是魯仁德署唯一實行那兩個最後法院已經直接說這個東西會依照大法官的意旨撤銷原判決把他們變為被告會回歸到40省的最後一個省級高院去那我請教羈押的要件您剛有講過我想羈押我國刑事訴訟法101條101之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].start |
37458.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].end |
37477.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].text |
逃亡串證或湮滅證據或5年以上重罪又有前開那兩項再來預防性羈押是不是這樣行使訴訟法是這樣我想請問這37位死刑犯如果非常上述成功回到普通法院至少這兩位輪得贖得現在最高法院已經說一定會成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].start |
37478.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].end |
37489.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].text |
如果回到普通法院審理的時候他們變成被告而不再是等待執行槍決之人也不是受刑人了我想請教您我們要怎麼樣繼續把他關著 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].start |
37491.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].end |
37520.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].text |
因為他還是有犯罪嫌疑重大而且他曾經被法院判決死刑確定過所以呢會從這些跡象來認定他是逃亡機率很高大概就是所謂的那個101條第一項第三款的室友所以呢他會魚逃有相當理由這時候就是相當理由有魚逃這時候就會羈押你會認為說因為他們曾經被判過死刑所以他們會逃亡我覺得這個邏輯很不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].start |
37521.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].end |
37547.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].text |
很不對你不能逃亡要有逃亡的事實在我們當講官的時候逃亡的事實就是他在國外有朋友他有足夠的經濟能力他可能到國外去生活就有逃亡的可能性那在這個時代他已經在裡面關了十幾二十年了他根本沒有經濟能力他也沒有朋友甚至帶著電子腳鐐他沒有逃亡的可能性啊請問你要怎麼繼續壓著他這是第一個第二個積壓也有一定的時間限制嘛頂多就是15個月嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].start |
37548.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].end |
37555.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].text |
那請問一下超過15個月以後我們要怎麼繼續壓他那這些人會不會再回歸到社會請問您的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].start |
37556.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].end |
37582.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].text |
跟委員報告就是因為他們所犯的是最重本刑是超過10年以下是依照刑事訴訟法108條那他是基本上在各省級他沒有延長次數的限制所以可以繼續羈押再來憲判第113年繼續羈押還是有期限我不管壓多久可以延壓可以延壓但是他有期限嘛對不對延壓三次變六次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].start |
37585.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].end |
37604.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].text |
那如果超過呢 超過以後呢我國有沒有存在無限期羈押的制度沒有 最長只能押五年那也跟委員報告就是沒有最長 羈押可以押五年我是說各省級加起來我現在我們不要 你還是跟我繞圈子你沒有回答我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].start |
37604.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].end |
37628.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].text |
再回到高等法院40審裡面我們最長能夠押多久你心裡很清楚第一個我們他符不符合羈押的要件我們不知道因為101條跟101之一他有沒有符合這要件這就是一個大問題第二個大問題他可能押超過這個時間也必須放人也就是說這37個死刑犯可能會回歸到社會啊你可以跟我講一定不會回去的理由嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].start |
37630.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].end |
37645.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].text |
我想這是要加速審判的問題啦這是法院必須要注意就是說如果這些他們都是重刑犯就我的經驗所知目前如果是殺人涉犯的是殺人重罪而且最嚴重的犯刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].start |
37646.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].end |
37670.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].text |
通常大概就一二三審都是再押的狀況不是不是不是 我跟你講齁 您是專業的檢察官我不知道你在回答什麼當然會再押 但是羈押有期限限制第一個羈押有羈押的要件 要件是什麼第二個羈押有羈押的期限限制就像我剛剛說的 您知道101、101-1是羈押的條件但是這37位死刑犯 他們可能不符合101跟101-1 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].start |
37671.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].end |
37699.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].text |
好即便符合他也有羈押15個月滿了你不能再押下去怎麼辦所以這就是這些人可能會回歸到社會像你還是答不出來該怎麼辦你就說加速審判對加速審判是一個用法但是他不是萬靈丹啊如果那個法官就是沒加速呢或是律師就是巧妙的拖過這羈押的期限呢這些人要回歸社會我在沒有跟你提這個是要麻煩您真的要注意一下這個狀況你回去也要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].start |
37701.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].end |
37717.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].text |
同事講其實有這個問題其實當時我們點出這個問題一樣在野黨的立委以及很多側翼的律師說我們在講鬼話但是我們後來請法務部請司法院來質詢的時候這些人專業的檢察官出身專業的法官出身就驗證了我們的憂慮是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].start |
37721.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].end |
37741.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].text |
會有可能發生的但是最糟糕的是我們台灣現在大家相信政客不相信專家我們能源政策我們該不該放颱風架我們該不該修法大家只信政客的嘴沒有人信專家這是我現在在這邊我心裡最難過以及我們現在台灣遇到的一個重大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].start |
37742.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].end |
37759.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].text |
所以我點出來死刑判可能會回歸社會我這些話絕對經得起每一個考驗所有專業的檢察官法官來都說我說的這是一個問題只有那些披著律師外衣的側翼以及民進黨的立法委員覺得不可能有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].start |
37761.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].end |
37773.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].text |
但是加速審判是一個解決方式但是加速審判你只能拜託法官審快一點這個跟法治上面能夠解決這個問題是無關的這是一個事實面去解決好我再請教下一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].start |
37777.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].end |
37789.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].text |
有關我們這段時間我們其實有一個反滲透法反滲透法還有國安法等等我們發現一個狀況就是在選前到處抓人到處辦結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].start |
37791.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].end |
37812.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].text |
你知道嗎有405件反滲透法、國安法在選前到處辦人你去一趟大陸回來他就把你抓起來抓去問話但是起訴不到四成而且到目前只有四件一審判有罪二審會不會有罪不知道好那這發生了一個問題政治人物我們在蔡英文執政的時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].start |
37814.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].end |
37842.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].text |
完全執政立法院訂了很多法律明確性完全不足的法律然後接下來用這個法律到處抓人去搞到他的政治上面的利益因為反滲透法以及國安法是完全不明確法律概念我也是希望您將來當擔任大法官能夠注意到這些違反憲法概念這些違反法律明確性原則的這些法律不應該存在不明確的法律就會讓執政者隨便拿個法條就辦你反正最後你無罪那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].start |
37843.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].end |
37871.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].text |
你的事選舉也選完了再來我會跟你講還有一個問題就是這段時間很多反滲透法的案子到最後變成是邀約大家去玩的人最後判無罪結果參加旅行團的人他因為剛去然後檢察官跟他說你這個只是小事你趕快認一認我給你還起訴結果他們還起訴確定了結果主嫌最後法院判無罪現在變成一個很可笑的局面主嫌判無罪這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].start |
37872.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].end |
37896.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].text |
他所謂的他邀請去消費的這些人被緩起訴處分緩起訴也是有前科也是有罪對不對你也很清楚所以這個麻煩高檢署真的也要去注意你將來擔任大法官也要注意這個點這個造成我們國內非常多的困擾主嫌無罪了結果底下那些參加旅行的人全部被緩起訴處分好不好國家不能這樣亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].start |
37899.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].end |
37904.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].text |
好 謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人林穎瑩主任檢察官的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].start |
37912.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].end |
37934.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].text |
報告全院委員會我們今天針對大法官被提名人林立穎主任檢察官的詢答部分到此為止謝謝我們被提名人列寫的答詢7月14號星期一上午9點繼續開會進行司法院大法官被提名人陳慈揚詹正榮之審查相關事宜現在休息 |