IVOD_ID |
16798 |
IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16798 |
日期 |
2025-07-02 |
影片種類 |
Full |
開始時間 |
2025-07-02T08:29:59+08:00 |
結束時間 |
2025-07-02T11:55:00+08:00 |
影片長度 |
03:25:01 |
支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea38e81df39d48cf289b5fa2f296a935340d5b2c3b93916c39b13c0bb3106f63a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
會議時間 |
2025-07-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會「行政區劃立法技術」公聽會 |
委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 11:55:00 |
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好我們現在開始開會跟大家報告我們今天召開行政區劃立法技術公聽會主要探討的是這個行政區劃的相關法律應該用實體法還是程序法來進行行政區劃的事項是否要授權或委辦地方自治團體來訂定自治法規行政區劃的專法跟地方自治法的關係應該是什麼 |
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要不要統一由行政區劃的專法來設定或者是地方制度法另訂相關專章再來行政區劃程序中是否要納入公民投票的制度如何促進公民的參與以及程序相關保障這些等等相關議題我們特別舉辦一場公聽會聽取各位學者專家的高見我們會詳時記錄各位的意見並且列入立法院公報記錄之中作為未來行政區劃法在修法的時候的重要參考依據 |
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那今天的程序首先我們先介紹一下今天感謝大家出席的專家學者相關的委員以及政府機關代表來這照順序就好了對不對我們今天謝謝大家謝謝各位學者專家熱情與會首先是我們江明修政大公共行政學系江明修教授中國地方知識學會紀俊成理事長 |
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民船大學 公共事務及行政管理學系 習戴琳 副教授國立台灣大學法律學院 林明強 林明強 特聘教授對不起我們東吳大學法律系 胡培彥教授逢甲大學土地管理學系 李長業 助理教授 |
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國立台北大學公共行政及政策學系 呂育成教授東吳大學政治系 陳立剛副教授輔仁大學法律學系 姚孟昌助理教授以及輔仁大學法律學系 楊子惠教授我們官員的部分 今天我們內政部由董建宏政務次長代表內政部出席 |
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好 那我跟大家報告一下我們今天公聽會的程序第一 我們先請今天的主管機關內政部進行簡短的報告我們再給學者專家來進行發言我們一 初期的簽到順序來做原則每位學者專家發言時間為8分鐘 |
transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2206.815 |
transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2229.973 |
transcript.whisperx[6].text |
本院委員如果要發言請自主席來登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為五分鐘最後通通發言結束之後我們再次由內政部的代表來做一個簡單的回應說明那也跟大家報告一下我們的發言台正前方大家都可以看到這個倒數計時器發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲提醒結束的是按鈴兩聲 |
transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2231.454 |
transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2237.378 |
transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好現在我們有請內政部董事長建宏針對今天題目進行報告董事長有請主席各位委員各位學者專家代表首先代表本部部長對於各位委員就內政部業務所推動的相關的業務進行關注與指導表示由衷的感謝之意 |
transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2259.071 |
transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2283.706 |
transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那麼今天貴委員會召開行政區劃立法技術空聽會那本部應要列席報告深感榮幸那就針對本部針對行政區劃的立法我們主要重點是著重在於辦理行政區劃調整時應有之程序設計並基於憲法第108條對於行政區劃之權限劃分及尊重地方在程序上賦予地方可因地制宜提出行政區劃調整的計畫 |
transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2286.553 |
transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2307.821 |
transcript.whisperx[9].text |
至於行政區劃所涉及的各類實質問題已有其他專業法規可以處理建議應該讓行政區劃的立法聚焦於建立一套全國一致的行政程序使各級機關可以得以遵循那麼以下將分別就今日公聽會所列的相關的議題進行說明敬請各位委員及學者專家先進進行參考 |
transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2309.437 |
transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2331.116 |
transcript.whisperx[10].text |
首先有關於議題一,針對行政區劃法律應以實體法或程序法規定之問題因應各界對於行政區劃法制之要求本部從81年起推動立法,為歷經多次送立法院審查未果主要原因都在於各界對於行政區劃的實質調整圖貌有所不同想像 |
transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2332.157 |
transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2359.754 |
transcript.whisperx[11].text |
為了避免各界誤解查案涉及實質調整本部在109年起推動行政區劃程序法之立法希望聚焦規範行政區域調整之應有程序使各種行政區域之實體調整的意見可以在程序中充分的表達與匯聚並且使各級機關在辦理行政區域調整時有所依循所以在立法政策上面我們就建議優先推動行政程序法之立法 |
transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2360.936 |
transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2375.378 |
transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那麼議題二有關於行政區劃事項是否得以授權或委辦地方自治團體訂定自治法規問題那麼依據憲法第108條第一項第二款的規定行政區劃是由中央立法並執行之地方僅有執行權 |
transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2376.9 |
transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2400.86 |
transcript.whisperx[13].text |
行政區劃事項在憲法規定上不具有地方自治事項之性質且涉及各直轄縣市或鄉鎮地區等之新設、廢止或調整其程序上本應有全國一致性所以歷來所有行政院所提查案都賦予地方有因應地制移植提案權自無需在授權地方另以自治條例定之 |
transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2402.076 |
transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2431.414 |
transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那麼議題三有關於行政區劃專法與地方制度法之間的關係是否由專法定之或由地方制度法訂定專章的問題那麼現行地方制度法在改制直轄市部分已經有相關的規定其餘行政區劃類型並無規範考量改制直轄市以外之行政區劃類型其樣態以及考量因素顯然與改制現實直轄市不同基於立法經濟仍希望維持於分別立法委託 |
transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2433.756 |
transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2451.403 |
transcript.whisperx[15].text |
議題四行政區劃納入公投公民投票機制制度之問題首先現行公民投票法並未禁止行政區劃相關事項作為公民投票之提案是否呈案及後續投票事宜納入中央選舉委員會依公民投票法審認及辦理 |
transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2453.311 |
transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2471.128 |
transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其實本部在112年辦理之委託研究關於行政區化與公民投票關聯議題之研究結果而言主要認為以各國推動行政區化經驗而言公民投票並非必然之程序如果為了強化民眾參與機制公民投票並非唯一的方法等 |
transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2472.129 |
transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2483.393 |
transcript.whisperx[17].text |
為利行政區劃程序中強化民眾參與行政院在107年的草案本及本部送行政院審議中的草案版本都有要求各級機關研擬行政區劃計劃時應辦理公民民調調查及空聽會並參酌各該意見以達到民眾參與及程序保障之結果 |
transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2492.717 |
transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2516.053 |
transcript.whisperx[18].text |
至於議題五其他行政區劃法制相關議題的部分本部已經並同檢視國土計劃區域計劃都市計劃之情形都有因應行政區劃調整與跨域計劃之處理機制所以最後本部希望再次強調針對本次公聽會的議題那本部的書面報告有比較完淨的說明也請各位委員及學者專家先進進行參考並指教 |
transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2517.854 |
transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2545.8 |
transcript.whisperx[19].text |
再次感謝各位委員及各位學者專家先進對本部的指導謝謝好謝謝我們董建宏政務次長的報告那麼其他單位的報告我們在大家桌上都有書面好不好我們就請大家自行參閱我們同樣會刊登在立法院的公報那我們今天就接著往下走我們請各位專家學者來發言那如同我們剛剛所說按照初期簽到的順序第一位我們請呂育成教授發言呂教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2567.593 |
transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2590.899 |
transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席各位政府機關的代表還有各位學術界的先進還有各位與會的女士先生大家早安我是台北大學公共行政系李玉成今天非常榮幸有這個機會來參與這一個算是新但是算是一個非常老的老的這個議題我剛才提到在20年前我在念書的時候這個議題就已經被討論那我想為什麼這個議題看起來如此單純卻 |
transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2598.134 |
transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2612.917 |
transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這麼長沒有辦法決定我覺得可能還是在於整個議題不只是一個立法技術行政企劃它本質上是一個需要涵蓋各個不同層面的考量的一個議題好 那下一張 |
transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2620.188 |
transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2638.474 |
transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以我準備了一個簡單的PVT來凝聚這個焦點我想我先把我的結論先跟各位先進報告關於第一個這個討論提綱應該要實地法或程序法來訂定我個人覺得當然從一個兼顧程序正義跟實質正義的角度來說兩者都應該要兼顧 |
transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2640.776 |
transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2654.357 |
transcript.whisperx[23].text |
當然剛才次長所提到誰先誰後我個人沒有太大的意見但是正如剛才所提到區化它不只是一個行政區域或是界限的一個調整它可能是一個國土資源的再利用 |
transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2654.761 |
transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2680.611 |
transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以我覺得這兩個應該要兼併兼重那麼第二個呢關於這一個行政區劃的這個授權的這個議題剛才次長的意思是他當然需要站在一個法治的法律的角度來做這樣的一個規劃我個人完全同意但是就像目前我接到三個版本的草案其實所謂的區劃的劃分他包含的不只是我們所謂的合併他還包含的 |
transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2681.533 |
transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2708.409 |
transcript.whisperx[25].text |
特定地方自治團體的各種不同樣態或規模的一個調整所以我覺得這個內政部或是中央主管機關不妨可以用一個框架式的方式來規範至於比較小譬如說縣政府縣以下的這個相關的這個區域我覺得不妨用授權的方式來尊重地方自治當然基本上不能夠違反國家的這個法制這個大原則是很明確的 |
transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2709.795 |
transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2731.381 |
transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那麼第三個關於這個專法的這個議題事實上這個議題在過去這麼多年也討論過無數次那我個人覺得不管是專法也好或者是跟地制法做整併可能必須要考慮到我們對於這個行政區劃在做規範的時候除了調整這兩個字更重要的是到底要調什麼 |
transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2733.106 |
transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2757.422 |
transcript.whisperx[27].text |
今天之所以爭議很大的意思大家可能會站在譬如說我是從資源有些人是從流域有些人是從這個人口有些人是從經濟各種不同的角度那這個部分如果我們只是很純粹的放在地方制度法我個人認為反而會造成更多的爭議或者更多的討論因為我們很難用明確的方式去規範每一個實質的議題 |
transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2760.044 |
transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2779.193 |
transcript.whisperx[28].text |
內政部或者是這個中央頂多只能規範一個框架或者是實懲至於細部的東西我覺得可能還要納入各個不同的考慮那麼第四個關於公民參與的這個議題我完全同意公民應該參與但是在參與的過程中必須要符合權責相稱等一下我會提到的一個大原則 |
transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2780.214 |
transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2808.634 |
transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以是不是要透過複決或是透過公民投票我個人是比較保守我覺得這反而會模糊這個過程中的這個權責最後一個其他的這個議題事實上行政企劃法這個早案在很早以前就已經提目前事實上已經有國土計劃法還有剛才次長所提到的相關的法制那我個人覺得除了行政企劃法這個法制之外應該同時兼顧譬如說未來我們的這個永續置頂2050淨零排放等等這些議題 |
transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2809.975 |
transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2836.327 |
transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一併的去做考量雖然複雜度會比較高但是我覺得如果我們真的認為區劃是一個必須而且必要的工作可能更需要去關注這個議題好接下來針對一些重點我跟各位這個先進做一個說明所以就像這個標題所說的我們今天討論的不只是一個新設廢紙或調整區劃他其實更重要的是一個國家整體資源的重分配特別是面對現在的這個整個 |
transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2838.768 |
transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2854.677 |
transcript.whisperx[31].text |
環境或者乃至於這一個氣候等等環境的改變所以我覺得行政區劃在定的時候除了程序正義之外更應該要注意到實質正義的一個關注因為才能夠滿足各個不同利益團體或是各個不同的主張對於這個區劃的想像我個人認為不應該只是把它視為 |
transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2859.119 |
transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2886.436 |
transcript.whisperx[32].text |
一個區域這個範圍的改變就誠如幾年前我們在談新竹縣市合併的這個議題一樣看起來似乎是一個很簡單的一個合或併但是實際上它涉及的議題非常的多我們刻意去做簡化的結果反而讓整件事情難以被推動這是我個人的第一個那在實質爭議的時候特別是我們現在很強調的跨域很強調的永續的議題我覺得更需要去放到這個裡面來談下一張 謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2888.377 |
transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2903.829 |
transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以基於這樣的概念行政區劃的一個所謂的我個人覺得技術面最重要還是在權責分明的這個議題那麼關於這個地方知識團體他如果我們以縣的概念來看他是一個主要的利益關係的代表人 |
transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2904.329 |
transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2926.34 |
transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以他當然有權利去提出所謂的計劃但是他如果在這個知識團體本身轄區內的這個區劃我覺得他應該擁有相當的這個主導的權利而不應該全部都由中央來做做這個控管中央也可以不需要事事都要去做介入我覺得這樣的話可以造成達成這個 |
transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2927.891 |
transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2953.552 |
transcript.whisperx[35].text |
分層負責這樣的一個那至於民意調查跟人民團體我個人覺得他很難去強調他跟這個區劃議題的直接關係好比說我只是一個國際的環保團體那我對這個議題我如果擁有這個倡議權或者是某種的審議權我覺得反而混淆整件事情的一個權責的概念所以我這邊前面 |
transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2954.456 |
transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2974.829 |
transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我刚才这两天拿到包括107年的内政部的提案还有牛委员的提案以及邱委员的提案其实共同点不只是针对行政区画的范围它更强调的是治理更强调的是施政品质乃至于责任的归属 |
transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2975.447 |
transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3003.846 |
transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以再加上國土計劃法第三條的這個規定我覺得在技術上應該有這個下面三個重點第一個當然必須要依照這個自治的憲政的體制跟權限第二個呢應該要忠實的反映地方這個區域的特色還有專業的意見我還是強調這是一個兼顧政治兼顧民主但是更需要去慎重的考量整個台灣區域資源運用的一個 |
transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3005.587 |
transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3029.12 |
transcript.whisperx[38].text |
法治那麼只有這樣的方式才能夠讓這個法通過的同時我們的國土資源能夠做最好的應用下一張那麼最後當然我們區劃這個議題很重要但是我覺得更重要的是就像前一張投影片所說我們應該要透過區劃來解決四個目前更急迫性的這個問題好比說 |
transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3031.36 |
transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3056.507 |
transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們目前在這個流域管理跟資源管理上我們還有很多很多的這個整合的空間如果這些議題都能夠先有一個整合或是一個共識我相信在推動行政區劃的過程中應該會事半功倍才對以上是我的分享 謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝 呂一誠教授下一位我們請胡培燕教授 白衍 胡教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3062.902 |
transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3087.856 |
transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們主持人張偉 劉委員各位老師 各位先進以及各位我們行政同仁大家早安 大家好我是東吳大學胡柏彥非常榮幸有這個機會來參與這個大家已經討論十幾年的議題那也是覺得這個主席非常有勇氣的去面對這個議題可以顯見主席在這件事情上是很有政治的企圖心為什麼 |
transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3089.617 |
transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3109.205 |
transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我必須要說實在一件事情剛剛我們其實次長在報告的時候說我們在112年的委託研究計畫其實我有參與那個委託研究計畫所以這個關係要先說明但是我不是計畫主持人所以沒有辦法全然代表這個計畫來說說明第二點事情是我也只是負責做研究的人 |
transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3110.052 |
transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3133.051 |
transcript.whisperx[42].text |
內政部也沒有捲布在我的意見我也必須要先說說明這件事情但是呢那時候其實就有一個為什麼我們長久以來都要一直討論這個議題因為這個議題其實不是單純的法律問題是政治問題為什麼是一個政治問題呢其實我們到行政區劃法到目前的草案為止我們都會發現我們其實調整到哪裡我們調整的部分是鄉鎮區嘛 |
transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3134.972 |
transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3161.598 |
transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那其實鄰里的部分本來就是地方自治的部分而各縣市政府其實各直轄市大概都有地方我們鄰里調整的組織的自治條例的出現但是試問一件事情啊我們有調整過鄰里嗎我們有調整過幾次鄰里嗎我們的鄰里的問題基本上來講跟區的問題其實我們知道我們區的問題其實是在變成直轄市我們有六都之後其實大小差異非常大恐怕主席來的 |
transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3163.436 |
transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3177.615 |
transcript.whisperx[44].text |
桃園其實已經是相對而言比較單純了因為他只有13個區啊如果隔壁的新北的話有29那可能更多那13個區你就要面對一件事情中立非常的大那一個中立可能隔壁呢觀音就要 |
transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3178.515 |
transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3206.409 |
transcript.whisperx[45].text |
在隔壁觀音啊可能就要比兩三個以上的加起來人口數都不夠他中壢一樣大所以那個行政效能當中而言那個差異感基本上來講我們已經必須要去面對這件事情但是每每講要調整一件事情我們剛剛講的啊你要把人家里消滅掉里長都會直接跟市長嗆聲阿公不然你在這裡算什麼啊對啊都會跟市長講說你這本市裡面的民意制度都沒有我高你連里長都選不上你選什麼市長 |
transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3207.864 |
transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3224.421 |
transcript.whisperx[46].text |
你只要有遇到要調整這個調整其實對他有權利義務關係的時候民眾的抗爭感其實就很大所以這個問題基本上來講沒辦法單純的以法律去面對他這時候我們訂完之後這個不是內政部長要面對各縣市首長如果真的要去 |
transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3225.482 |
transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3238.691 |
transcript.whisperx[47].text |
劃分的話也是要面對但需不需要去面對啊 需 需要因為我們確實一件事情我們剛剛講的我們的地方自治是一個很奇怪的做法基本上來講我們沒有全然地方自治是因為我們基本上我們已經把那個結構架構劃分 |
transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3240.612 |
transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3256.444 |
transcript.whisperx[48].text |
在裡面了所以導致一件事情我們的鄉鎮區不管大小其實我們的組織規模差異性不大組織長得也是一樣但是會造成一件事情就是說其實大家要承擔的業務以及人口數其實是差別非常大了 |
transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3256.844 |
transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3277.573 |
transcript.whisperx[49].text |
而這個差別非常大將會導致一件事情是行政上效能的困境那針對我們現在幾個議題當中來做討論的話第一個部分當中行政區劃應該要以實體法或程序法定制說實在我們現在目前的行政區劃法草案其實主要規範的內容其實都是在 |
transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3278.653 |
transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3299.89 |
transcript.whisperx[50].text |
處理我們程序上的事項因為我們其實在處理區劃法這個部分當中可以理解的部分當中也是如何去劃分這個區劃這個程序的部分但是這個程序是不是會必然連同到實體是只是說如果我們討論的實體是所謂的有關地方自治團體權限劃分的部分這個部分其實 |
transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3301.091 |
transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3319.794 |
transcript.whisperx[51].text |
應該是在地方制度法當中已經有放在那裡但是如果一個比較好的適當方式也許我們應該同時把它換進地方制度法來討論但是地方制度法的討論的話就會造成一件事情那我們要把整個地方制度法都要拿出來修那如果這樣子的話我們行政區劃法的討論可能會更 |
transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3320.635 |
transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3335.808 |
transcript.whisperx[52].text |
拖延更久為什麼因為我們在25條以下關於各地方知識團體以下的這個區鄉鎮的職能要沒有變動特別我們其實財政措施劃分法有修正之後有關大家職能變動的部分其實也應該一併討論但是這個已經超過我們單純行政區劃的範圍之外了 |
transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3340.111 |
transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3355.186 |
transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那第二個部分當中我們行政區劃當然可不可以授權或者是委辦地方支持團體為之我們其實依照憲法108條的規定因為這部分行政區劃不是出現在107條專屬中央立法並執行的事項而是 |
transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3356.087 |
transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3375.532 |
transcript.whisperx[54].text |
立法並執行或叫做省縣執行但是我們可以理解啊其實我們的這個有關憲法本文當中的地方自治其實距離我們的現實其實是有一段距離為什麼因為我們現在台灣是處於六度環境但是我們其實在在憲法當中而言在處理直轄市的部分條文數非常非常的有限 |
transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3377.172 |
transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3396.352 |
transcript.whisperx[55].text |
這個部分會導致一個結果其實是跟我們現狀其實不相符的但是這個部分其實說實在如果我們只有一個執行事項的地方那地方當然不是說不能製條例只是說它在這個範圍裡面還有什麼空間可以讓它去制定這個其實是一個很大的問題 |
transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3397.213 |
transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3421.906 |
transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以基本上來講我認為說其實中央統一有一個行政區劃法的不管它叫程序法或者是不管是它叫放在地方制度法討論當中而已可能會相對於單純的部分而這個部分也會連結到第三個議題當中而已是不是要做一個行政區劃的專章因為我們現在地方制度法的第七條之一到七條之三確實已經有針對 |
transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3425.468 |
transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3436.954 |
transcript.whisperx[57].text |
縣市合併 單獨合併跟直轄市的這四項加以規範但很顯然一件事情基本上這樣的規範其實是不夠而且如果對於每個直轄市審核的人都會問一件事情是如果我要申請為什麼不會過 |
transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3439.824 |
transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3455.932 |
transcript.whisperx[58].text |
桃園市其實是靠兩百萬升格的那個部分它不是在當初所謂五都升格的那一塊同樣的 當初其實申請的不是只有台南市啊不是只有台東市啊被申請的那些縣市說我們想升格 我已經隔壁躺好了為什麼我們不會過 |
transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3457.333 |
transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3475.102 |
transcript.whisperx[59].text |
而這個部分其實恐怕而言基本上來講對於各縣市團體如果有意要去申請的話其實是一個問題而這個部分基本上來講不管用專章或專法的討論我覺得都是有必要的為什麼因為要讓大家有依循的可能空間存在至於說要 |
transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3476.274 |
transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3502.241 |
transcript.whisperx[60].text |
不要納入公民投票確實我是如同我們的報告裡面提的我認為一件事情是依照目前各國推動行政區劃的觀覽來說基本上來講公民投票並不是唯一或者是必要一定要去做的事情但有沒有國家有確實是有所以我們也不要否認這件事情確實是有只是說公民投票常常會造成一個議題就是我們其實最重要一件事情是如何產生這樣的區劃程序 |
transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3504.949 |
transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3530.311 |
transcript.whisperx[61].text |
也就是說我們的林裡要怎麼變動到我們的鄉鎮要怎麼變動它的區域要怎麼變動這個程序的變動這個位置的變動以及說我們要跟誰合併或者是我們要拆分成多少的鄉鎮我覺得這件事情其實更為重要而除了我們公民投票之外其實基本上來講我們更重要的一件事情是在前階段當中而言大家程序的參與的部分 |
transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3530.931 |
transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3554.848 |
transcript.whisperx[62].text |
否則公民投票其實很容易化一件事情就是大家支持跟不支持一件事情而且以我們目前的狀況來講我們在特別法裡面有規定公民投票還會面對一件事情這個公投到底是選委會要辦還是地方政府自己辦而這個時候就會產生新的問題 以上謝謝大家謝謝胡博焱教授下一位我們請麥立正委員發言 麥委員有請 |
transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3566.223 |
transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3577.151 |
transcript.whisperx[63].text |
主席 各位專家 先進 家人們 大家好行政區劃的立法技術其實不是多冷門的議題它關係到我們每一個縣市 每一個市民的生活品質過去30年 我國行政區劃的立法技術 |
transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3585.797 |
transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3592.262 |
transcript.whisperx[64].text |
行政催化的制度一直缺雜的專法從行政院1993年提出的草案到現在六次版本都沒有下文導致各縣市合併、升格等重大政策只能靠一致性的特別條例或政治協商這樣的制度漏洞 |
transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3610.896 |
transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3612.557 |
transcript.whisperx[65].text |
長期造成資源分配不均,也讓地方治理缺雜,預測性與穩定性台灣民眾黨在2022年就提出行政區劃程序的立法草案 |
transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3629.446 |
transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3631.728 |
transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們立場很簡單,不能讓行政區劃停留在過招的時代所以應該回歸程序為主,設立清楚的提案、審查、公聽會、公投等流程同時也要納入最基本實體的原則,例如 |
transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3654.386 |
transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3658.91 |
transcript.whisperx[67].text |
區劃後的財政責任與行政的效力怎麼確保我們也支持地方政府參與討論提供整體的需求但最終的審查與決策仍需要由中央依法負責並保障公民的知情與參與權 |
transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3678.291 |
transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3701.446 |
transcript.whisperx[68].text |
重大的改變例如縣市合併我們認為應納入公民投票的機制讓人民有實質的決定權行政區區劃的立法是我們補上制度的漏洞的重要的一步期待今天的討論 |
transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3702.927 |
transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3722.232 |
transcript.whisperx[69].text |
能凝聚更多的共識讓這部長期延旦的專法真正邁入實質的審查落地執行今天代表我們民眾黨歡迎大家也謝謝大家在百忙之中為了這個佈法來去討論謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝我們麥玉珍委員 |
transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3731.175 |
transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3734.378 |
transcript.whisperx[70].text |
下一位我們請紀俊成理事長發言紀理事長有請我們內政委員會的牛召集委員各位協助專家各位行政機關的同仁大家好今天非常感謝 |
transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3758.653 |
transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3783.892 |
transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個宮廷會也有邀請來參加這個宮廷個人是覺得行政區劃的問題是一個很重要的問題是我們地方制度裡面會說是一個最重要問題之一所以在民國80年我在內政部就和當時的法規會執行秘書有長達30分鐘的辯論 |
transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3789.935 |
transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3807.044 |
transcript.whisperx[72].text |
當時內政部是主張不要訂行政區劃法我一直提到憲法108條第一項第二款明訂行政區劃是中央立法並執行四項為什麼內政部可以說不要訂呢所以當時 |
transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3808.707 |
transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3837.017 |
transcript.whisperx[73].text |
法規會的執行秘書和我辯論了半個小時之後最後接受我的意見所以才會有82年的行政區劃法草案送到立法院我想這個過程知道的人可能很多人都已經揍鼓了事實上行政區劃應該法制化這是一個必然的但是行政區劃的名稱是不是一定要加一個程序 |
transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3838.032 |
transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3863.207 |
transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我就倒覺得可能有一話所添足為什麼呢因為我們中華民國的法律裡面有程序的規定多得不得了請問有哪一個加一個程序的只有一個就是行政區劃法草案就是我們的這個行政程序法對不對那是不是特別 |
transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3864.56 |
transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3889.315 |
transcript.whisperx[75].text |
連那個稅監計政法它是明定的是一個程序法它也沒有加一個程序啊所以我是建議內政部是不是一個比較簡單的容易了解的一個方法就叫做行政區劃法這樣來制定草案而且這個過去在立法院審議的雖然不是那麼順利 |
transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3890.526 |
transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3915.544 |
transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但是也沒有人挑戰說要加一個程序兩個字我這是一個建議第二個問題就是說行政區劃法到底和地方制度法的競合的問題我想各位都很清楚地方制度裡面最重要的之一就是行政區劃那為什麼當時地方制度法沒有納入行政區劃這個內容呢 |
transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3918.697 |
transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3944.256 |
transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我在這裡要向各位說明地方治療在起草的時候是已經決定要併入的因為我當時就是負責起草的人那為什麼沒有併入呢因為當時行政企劃的A5是地政司、防疫科在負責本來是民政司在負責在吳柏雄當市長的時候當部長的時候對於 |
transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3948.789 |
transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3965.147 |
transcript.whisperx[78].text |
某些人有一點不滿意所以他就把這個AUR移到地政司成立於荒獄科這個過程知道的人我想也不是很多那在這種情形之下荒獄科的蔡科長 |
transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3967.591 |
transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3993.226 |
transcript.whisperx[79].text |
當時就很擔心A5如果再重回到內政部民政司的話是不是他的A5就沒有了所以他在會議的時候堅決反對當時的黃部長就建議就採決說那這樣好我們就維持現狀所以說本來就要併入的我個人是覺得地方制度法如果能夠加累 |
transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3994.619 |
transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4007.962 |
transcript.whisperx[80].text |
第二章之一 叫行政區劃章的話就可以把相關的條文最多二十條納進來我們現在的條文只有八十八條左右 |
transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4009.008 |
transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4028.573 |
transcript.whisperx[81].text |
再加上二十條也不多我想日本的地方自治法兩三百條都有可能我們為什麼一百多條有困難尤其是現在內政部又有一個行政區劃科如果他和地方自治科能夠相互合作的話我們的地方自治業務 |
transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4030.523 |
transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4051.233 |
transcript.whisperx[82].text |
應該會更好、更妥當的、妥順的發展所以我是建議能夠合併在一起以後,將列第二章之一第三個問題,關於行政區劃的事情是不是要把鄉鎮市區的部分納進來的問題 |
transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4052.95 |
transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4079.684 |
transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為我們的憲法是規定到縣市的部分所以在地方制度當時為什麼授權鄉鎮市以下可以由地方政府來訂租賃條例來處理的規定也是這種考量的因為本來憲法就沒有授權到鄉鎮市所以這一個部分我倒覺得 |
transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4082.044 |
transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4106.364 |
transcript.whisperx[84].text |
縣市以上的一定是要根據我們憲法的規定啊由這個地方行政區劃法來規範那麼鄉鎮市以下的如果有關鄉鎮市區的部分只做一個原則性的規定然後細節執行面的規定以後授權地方之母因地制宜來規範不過有一個問題就是說 |
transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4110.509 |
transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4134.774 |
transcript.whisperx[85].text |
在當前我們的草原政治氣氛並不是那麼良好的時候如果要由鄉鎮市區的鄉民代表會來隨意通過區劃的調整我看難上加難所以我是認為如果涉及到全國性的一致性的鄉鎮市區的調整的時候那麼 |
transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4138.695 |
transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4161.39 |
transcript.whisperx[86].text |
可以在行政區劃法來明定有立法院的選議這樣才有可能通過,而且可能同時實施,否則的話不要說是三年五載,我看十年八載也做不了所以說這是我的一個看法,供各位參考那至於說,到底要不要訂這個 |
transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4163.347 |
transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4181.193 |
transcript.whisperx[87].text |
可以用公投的方式來辦理的問題我想各位都知道在美國這個國家他們有公投也只有這個教育方面的區域的劃分的問題我最近幾天遇到一個美國回來的學者他就是 |
transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4183.477 |
transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4208.132 |
transcript.whisperx[88].text |
加州的教育委員會的委員他說只有這個學區的有公投的問題沒有說西域有公投問題我想這個事實上都可以提供我們內政部主管機關來做參考 謝謝各位好 謝謝紀俊成理事長的發言下一位我們請楊子惠教授發言 楊教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4216.678 |
transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4244.531 |
transcript.whisperx[89].text |
主席各位委員各位機關代表各位老師各位先進各位先生女士大家好我是福倫大學法律系楊子惠今天非常榮幸受邀來參加行政區劃立法技術公聽會今天我們有四個要討論的這個提綱那事實上從這個提綱就一個公法學者的觀點而言提綱的一我個人認為是一個偽命題等一下會解釋 |
transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4245.151 |
transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4268.798 |
transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那提綱的重點在於二尤其是三那第二點是不是將授權讓地方知識團體訂定法規或是說由中央的專法定之跟第三點提綱的第三點其實這兩者是重點也是息息相關息息相關那第四點公民投票的問題我認為是法律裡面的配套 |
transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4270.114 |
transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4284.059 |
transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那我從第一點而言為什麼來說明為什麼我認為它是一個唯命題因為從公法學者角度而言實體法跟程序法這兩個概念其實在我們公法學上其實還是有它的 |
transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4284.841 |
transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4303.475 |
transcript.whisperx[92].text |
沒有辦法精確劃分的標準就如剛才曾經紀老師有提到前輩有提到我們真正的程序法的法典名稱沒有冠上程序那真正是作用法的比如說我們行政程序法真正從92條開始行政處分以下的 |
transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4304.844 |
transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4333.152 |
transcript.whisperx[93].text |
在第二條把它稱為行政程序事實上我們都知道它完全不是行政程序至少不是中文理解的程序而是作用行政作用或行政行為所以要自問說這個行政區劃要不要加上程序這兩個字或是不要把它認定為實體法我覺得這個命題或這個問題其實是沒有必要沒有必要因為我們幾乎不管有沒有程序或實體的法律裡面 |
transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4333.972 |
transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4344.161 |
transcript.whisperx[94].text |
嚴格而言我們真正叫做程序法如果要把它狹隘的認定是訴訟法只有我們幾部我們台灣規定的這個刑事訴訟民事訴訟甚至憲法訴訟行政訴訟但是這些訴訟法裡面難道沒有實體的規定嗎有還是有實體的規定 |
transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4350.146 |
transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4372.319 |
transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以嚴格劃分這個實體法或程序法來定它的架構或性質的命題我覺得沒有必要事實上從幾個版本的行政區劃法草案來看其實程序我把它姑且稱為作用程序中有作用作用中有程序 |
transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4372.97 |
transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4399.4 |
transcript.whisperx[96].text |
民程序實為作用事作用實為程序所以這個命題我是認為說沒有那麼重要重要的是要進入第二個問題就是得否授權或委辦地方自治團體訂定自治法規這個我從三個問題三個事項來看第一個憲法規範憲法規範第十章中央和地方標題中央地方的權限 |
transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4400.356 |
transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4424.796 |
transcript.whisperx[97].text |
以及11張地方制度以及我們徵修條文裡面的規定都沒有明文 憲法有明文是差別很大都沒有明文將行政區劃委託地方立法這是第一個從憲法規範的位階第二個從事項的位階因為我們一部法律規範就是從它的基礎以及事項行政區劃事項從幾部這個 |
transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4428.819 |
transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4453.222 |
transcript.whisperx[98].text |
各方各機關提出來草案來看多是涉及行政地方行政立法機關的組織原額財政收支劃分等等都是屬於中央的重要的立法權限較不具地方的性質這個相較地方制度法也是看得出來所以地方應僅僅是執行所以 |
transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4453.564 |
transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4482.132 |
transcript.whisperx[99].text |
在德國他們都常常也把行政稱為執行權是因為主要就是執行那第三從規範的結構跟性質而言行政區劃就是涉及這個全國的直轄市鄉鎮縣市等等新設廢止或調整所以不管在程序上組織上架構上必須應該有全國的一致性全國一致性不需要也沒有必要在 |
transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4483.786 |
transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4511.133 |
transcript.whisperx[100].text |
再授權給地方自治團體定這個自治法規那現在進入跟第二個息息相關的問題就我剛才也提到的這個簡單的講就是要一部法律還是兩部法律要並行我們要另外訂一部行政區劃法不管有沒有慣程序這個名稱還是要加一部地方制度法這個就涉及說如果他是兩部法律那兩部法律的關係我個人是認為我們還是要訂定一部行政區劃法 |
transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4512.557 |
transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4532.668 |
transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那在這裡可以同時講一下我個人認為這一次這個內政部提出來這個公聽會報告寫得很好很用心但就在這個議題三討論太少那我覺得這個才是重點那我個人是認為剛才講是要訂立兩部法第一理由這個地方制度法行之已久行之有年 |
transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4534.147 |
transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4546.703 |
transcript.whisperx[102].text |
都已經行之這麼多年了你要把它大動干戈或把它廢除把它原來的裡面相關的需要統一再一步專法行政區劃法規定我覺得可能不是很容易不是很容易 |
transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4547.423 |
transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4575.801 |
transcript.whisperx[103].text |
所以我個人認為說我們還是另外訂定一部行政區劃法但現在就是這兩部法律並存的話他們之間的關係從法學的觀點你是要規範未接的特別法與普通法還是適用未接的特別法與普通法甚至母法與子法的關係外部法與內部法的關係這是關鍵那從我們現在看的草案對照參考地方制度法的內容而言 |
transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4576.661 |
transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4587.051 |
transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們是可以可以從這個架構還有他的規範的事項來看如果要把行政區劃法定義為外部法 |
transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4587.858 |
transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4608.062 |
transcript.whisperx[105].text |
然後地方制度法是一個內部法這也許是一個可行的一個做法然後另外也可以用一個方法訂定就是地方制度法不用大修那在行政區劃法裡面這是一個最簡單的訂定一條就是地方制度法未規定則一本法 |
transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4608.522 |
transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4636.198 |
transcript.whisperx[106].text |
行之這也是一個立法技術上比較容易以後實行也完全會沒有一種適用上的問題因為他已經解決了這就是我講的剛才第二個方法適用未接上的關係兩部法律這樣那因為時間關係我進入第四個議題第四個議題我剛才說這是一個配套措施那我贊同內政部以及剛才幾位前輩的說的見解我們 |
transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4637.487 |
transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4656.994 |
transcript.whisperx[107].text |
讓公民參與有很多的方式那公民投票我是覺得最自私一份的最最最最煩惱的方式從誰要誰要主辦這個公民投票誰要籌辦那還有經費的問題經費人力財政資源這個是公民投票這個大東干戈所以我我個人認為只要有 |
transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4657.974 |
transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4684 |
transcript.whisperx[108].text |
公民的參與比如說像今天這個公聽會地方舉辦公聽會或是這個公民的這個民意調查民意調查那民意調查方式呢也可以詳細的規定公聽會也可以詳細的規定那如果不規定的話當然就是所有的都是依照行政程序法那如果要詳細的規定為了這個行政區劃他特殊的性質也可以在這個行政區劃法裡面詳細的 |
transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4685.445 |
transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4699.623 |
transcript.whisperx[109].text |
來把它規定 那讓民眾可以有一個參與的感那我沒有超過時間 我的報告到這裡 謝謝謝謝楊子惠教授的發言下一位我們請李長業助理教授 李教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4707.101 |
transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4721.429 |
transcript.whisperx[110].text |
主席好在座的各位專家先進大家早安好我是逢甲大學土地管理學系理財業我今天來受邀很榮幸的受邀這樣的一個公聽會那我個人也是誠惶誠恐因為我畢竟算是比較相對 |
transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4722.91 |
transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4737.343 |
transcript.whisperx[111].text |
對這個領域相對研究沒有那麼深入像各位很多專家像剛才季俊成老師有提到很多立法歷史的部分對我來講也是很有收穫好那我還是就我今天的提綱給予一些簡單的一些意見供大家來參考 |
transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4738.624 |
transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4765.875 |
transcript.whisperx[112].text |
第一個問題就是我剛才提綱上面就簡單按照這次開會通知上面所列的行政區劃法律引以實體法或程序法定制其實我剛才也我這邊主要是時間關係我就講我的結論其實我覺得它如同剛才尤其是剛才楊子惠老師有提到我覺得這個即使我們把它當作是行政區劃程序法其實在這個概念底下也可以規定很多實體的事項其實像行政程序法就是這樣一個典型的例子所以我不覺得 |
transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4766.835 |
transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4784 |
transcript.whisperx[113].text |
也許如果要聚焦在名稱上面的話我覺得當然如果說有像內政部所提的書面報告裡面提到如果說現階段加個程序可能會在立法技術上比較有這樣的一個空間的話也不是說不可以只是說它終究還是會有很多 |
transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4785.1 |
transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4812.472 |
transcript.whisperx[114].text |
實體的事項要面臨到一些規範的必要性所以例如說我在簡報上面我只是就我簡單粗淺說例如說像這個核定的概念它到底是什麼我們也這樣如果這種東西如果你不規定當然我們可以援引其他的法律來做一個界定還是說你要在這部法律當中去進一步去強化它尤其是在這個法律當中我們有看到有個叫做行政區域計劃這個當然也是一個在行政區域當中所提出來的一個概念 |
transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4813.152 |
transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4837.118 |
transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那計劃到最後這個行政區劃的完成中間是不是有一些可能要討論的實體上面的一個關係但我覺得這個是一個當然會來是不是要在這樣的一個法律當中做進一步的規定我覺得這當然就是一個實體面向必須要考量的而且可能在其他的法律當中並沒有看到太明文的可供參佐的規定這是第一個部分 |
transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4838.32 |
transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4863.399 |
transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個部分就是在講提供的第二部分在談行政區劃事項得否授權或違反地方自治法規當然我也如同剛才前面幾位先進所提到的我主要也是從第一個先從憲法規定來看這當然並不是憲法層級的自治事項只是說我們在地方制度法方面我們似乎在法規上也有給予一些由地方制度法本身來形成的自治事項 |
transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4864.332 |
transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4884.046 |
transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那我覺得就是在想說是不是要在地方制度法上面變成是一個地方制度法上容許的透過其他法律所規定授權而產生的這樣一個自治的規定我自己當然會覺得初步看法是沒有這樣的一個空間因為我覺得它還是如果回歸到憲法來講的話 |
transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4885.467 |
transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4910.205 |
transcript.whisperx[118].text |
它終究可能還是有一些全國一致性的一個框架性的必規範的一個性質的話我覺得可能就不適宜在這個時候授權給地方自治團體來制定地方法規不過我相信這次會有這樣的一個議題估計也是因為有很大的一個考量是在於說地方它終究有很多必須要考量的自己的特定的地方的特殊性 |
transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4911.465 |
transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4933.43 |
transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以才會有可能才會有這樣的一個考慮是不是要授權地方來制定這樣的一個自治法規那我覺得如果是考量這一點的話倒是可以將後面尤其在行政區化的草案當中有看到一直強調這種強調公民參與的部分因為公民參與更能夠凸顯如果我們把這個公民參與的程序很細緻的話其實它更能夠凸顯 |
transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4934.87 |
transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4950.296 |
transcript.whisperx[120].text |
我個人覺得可能比措選定制法更能夠凸顯在這個行政區劃計劃當中所產生的反映地方的特殊性這樣的一個各自的考量所以我覺得這個是當然就連接到等一下後面的一個問題提綱三的部分提綱三的部分是在講說是不是要有這個 |
transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4967.206 |
transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4996.085 |
transcript.whisperx[121].text |
就是行政區劃專法跟地方制度法之間的關係那簡單來說我覺得當然從憲法來看它這個中央立法並執行的部分它強調的當然就是法律保留但我覺得這部分它的法律當然指的就是刑事意義的法律就是所謂的法律未皆成己的這樣的一個法律至於說是不是要放在地方制度法當中的專章我個人目前認為是說初步的看法是認為說地方制度法它本身是帶有這種如果我們把它界定在這種框架性的 |
transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4996.705 |
transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5022.318 |
transcript.whisperx[122].text |
原則性的有關地方制度的法規的話那行政區劃是一個當中的一個重要的部分但是不是要我覺得比較把它單獨立法來凸顯它在這個部分有自己的法律的空間因為我剛才提到其實我覺得還有很多實體的事項可能還要進一步的做規範的話如果有一個單獨的立法可能會是一個比較我覺得初步來看是比較好適當的一個處理方式 |
transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5023.138 |
transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5047.27 |
transcript.whisperx[123].text |
然後過來提綱4談到公民投票制度以及如何促進公民參與的以及程序保障我第一個先回應就是第一個部分也談到公民投票我個人真的覺得是在這邊是認為說初步認為是說是不需要第一個是因為首先當然他到底最後能不能成立公民投票當然我們有公民投票法來處理這個案子最後會不會進入到公投 |
transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5048.03 |
transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5071.117 |
transcript.whisperx[124].text |
只是這個部分我們要不要在行政區劃法當中去討論我覺得這個是一個有困難第一個就是說你在本身如果你要在法律裡面討論的話你可能就會面臨一個問題公民投票的結果到底你要如何去影響到最後的這個決定我覺得這個是可能在立法上會遇到的一些挑戰跟困難 |
transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5071.977 |
transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5086.024 |
transcript.whisperx[125].text |
第二個也是會覺得說如果你最後核定不過然後再送公投的話是否會有一個現象就是說大家會覺得好那反正最後還有公投那我們前面就走完以後反正還有個主要戰場 |
transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5087.305 |
transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5112.581 |
transcript.whisperx[126].text |
合定不過我們還是可以公投我覺得有沒有可能會有這樣的一個現象這個我也是在一個思想的想像上的一個我自己覺得可能會有的狀況那我覺得這個當然就是促進公民參與一直我覺得其實反而是在我們現在很多法律當中都有規定的內容可是我個人有時候會覺得在實際上很多時候這個公民參與會流於一種單方輸出 |
transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5116.463 |
transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5134.819 |
transcript.whisperx[127].text |
就是機關到了以後大家聽我講完我的project是這樣你們覺得如何可是我覺得尤其是我們國土計畫法上路以後我覺得可能有一個很重要的精神就是在擬定計畫的時候就不斷的去參與大家的意見而不是單方最後來大家請看這是我的計畫 |
transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5136.524 |
transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5159.504 |
transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我覺得這個是我自己覺得它更如果這個更落實Maybe它更能夠讓地方的特色跟情況反映在這樣的一個行政區劃計劃當中然後最後變成行政區劃所以這個是我覺得當然是一個大方向的一個說明另外一個當然我那個PVT上沒有談到語言的重要性是因為我自己個人有時候去田野的時候鄉野的時候會發現 |
transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5160.945 |
transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5189.628 |
transcript.whisperx[129].text |
很困難因為那邊的阿公阿伯只會講台語你單方一直講中文他們其實最後我問他們說你們當時有沒有聽得懂政府單位來的說的是什麼他們說其實完全不知道在說什麼我就是來領個便當我就回家了我覺得這樣可能就流於我剛才講的公民參與很形式的一種公民參與我覺得這個可能我們如果真的要強調地方的特殊性跟必要性的話我一直覺得我們在公民參與這個部分其實可以有更多細緻化的設計的一個空間 |
transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5190.669 |
transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5206.639 |
transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好那最後也這個基本上談到相關議題的話我覺得就呼籲內政部所提的書面報告以上是我的簡單的意見請大家參佐謝謝好謝謝李承業助理教授下一位我們請陳立剛副教授發言陳副教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5215.524 |
transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5226.219 |
transcript.whisperx[131].text |
主席在座的學者專家以及我們行政院的同仁大家早安今天非常榮幸有機會參加這麼一個重要的一個公聽會 |
transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5227.304 |
transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5254.298 |
transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那就如前面幾位學子都提到這個議題在中央政府也好在立法院也好懸擋了多年那非常感佩我們劉委員有這樣的一個這樣的一個想法ambitious能夠提出這樣的一個公聽會那我想一開始我跟各位分享一下我對於新進區化的一個看法我想我們都知道國土規劃或新進區化是一個國家非常重要的一個基本的願景的規劃 |
transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5255.339 |
transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5260.089 |
transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那其實他牽涉到整個國家的發展的一個方向所以對我個人來講在參與我們的憲法108條第一項第二款 |
transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5265.8 |
transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5292.812 |
transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這樣的一個重大的業務我個人認為這是一個國家重大的治理業務應該是由中央政府以及我們立法院來做主要的一個諮詢所在當然在民意高漲的現實我們怎麼樣把民意的這個地方加進到我們國家治理的願景裡頭其實是一個我們必須思考的問題過去我們常常在很多國土規劃裡頭都是由內部很多的規劃 |
transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5294.116 |
transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5316.781 |
transcript.whisperx[135].text |
甚至有時候是不避免規劃那之後就公佈那怎麼樣在這個規劃當中能夠更廣泊周知讓更多民意進來這是可能我們必須要共同在思考未來行政區劃的時候共同思考的問題那針對有關於幾項的提綱我簡單提出我個人的一個看法因為嚴謹意義該的第一個有關於行政區劃或是應該以實體或法定剛剛有 |
transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5320.282 |
transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5348.887 |
transcript.whisperx[136].text |
很多的學者都提到在台灣的很多縣市法裡頭其實我們都會把程序跟事體共同進行所以我想這個問題應該是還蠻清楚的我個人建議是說應該是一起來進行可以一起來進行不必要特別規劃出一個所謂的程序法當然如果我們只是規劃成為一個程序法的時候我們就會有一個想法說那這個程序法所 |
transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5350.684 |
transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5370.98 |
transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所产生的结果是什么可能不知道所以如果这是中央立法执行的业务的话当然我们在程序规划的同时也希望看它生出来的政策结果是什么这个在我们的中央政府或是在我们的立法院都想要看到这个结果所以我个人认为说这个议题上应该是定型的 |
transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5371.38 |
transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5389.071 |
transcript.whisperx[138].text |
是會比較一起來規劃會比較適合我目前整個國家發展的生態這是第一點我對於第一個提綱的看法那第二個我想先談一下到底行政區劃第三個議題行政區劃法跟地方制度法的關係為何因為這是比較上位的概念 |
transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5390.151 |
transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5410.796 |
transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我個人過去很多次有機會參加內政部的很多所謂的內政部有關於地方制度法的一些相關的議題的一個討論我個人認為地方制度法是一個國家地方制度的基本大法它是一個Fundamental Law那它一般是一個大綱式的規範 |
transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5413.203 |
transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5439.275 |
transcript.whisperx[140].text |
比較好一點那有關於行政區域我個人會比較傾向說如果有可能讓它用專法來處理因為畢竟專法它是專業的立法能夠讓這樣的一個重大國家發展治理的一個重大法律能夠在專業裡面來處理這是我個人初步的看法畢竟在地方制度法處理當時我想可能因為是比較急需要把地方制度法趕出來 |
transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5439.975 |
transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5467.836 |
transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以就沒辦法有這個機會去做專章的處理所以我個人認同就是說剛才很多學者提到可以考慮可以考慮在一個新的專法裡面來做來加以處理這樣的概念這是第二題我對於有關於行政區劃跟地方制度法之間的競合關係的一個小小的看法第三點就有關於行政區劃是不是能夠授權或委辦地方知識團體就目前的相關的法律來看 |
transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5469.635 |
transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5492.896 |
transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這是中央的業務吧中央的業務那是不是有可能把非常基礎性的一些地方的一些比如說直轄市的區的整備很基層的這個所謂的鄉里的整備業務委註地方自治來實行在學理上我覺得是可行的但是在政治實務上面 |
transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5493.956 |
transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5521.933 |
transcript.whisperx[143].text |
在政治事務上面可能必須考慮到它的很多的專業性我一再來強調行政區劃分有非常重要的專業考量它是一個功能性的考量它是一個國家願景的考量那這個時候如果要把這部分的業務委託地方治理的時候或委託地方來籌備規劃的時候我們可能要去思考在事務上我們地方的整個政府或民意代表有這樣的一個專業的一個規劃能力呢 |
transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5523.139 |
transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5540.718 |
transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這可能也是我們必須要一併來思考的所以有關於行政區劃分是否應該委辦地方知識團體來處理我覺得這個地方可能要進一步再加以思考特別在實務上面的考慮那接下來談到這個所謂的公民投票的議題 |
transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5541.622 |
transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5561.757 |
transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我想這個議題跟剛剛所謂的委託地方辦理有點相關就目前的法制面來看我們是沒有相關的一定是要透過法律來加以公投那我個人看到過去很多的公投的案例大部分都是諮詢性的公投 |
transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5563.103 |
transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5581.201 |
transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我對於自立性公投的一個初步理解就是它有時候是有一些有一些是很多的這種所謂的地方性的還有地方部分意見的公投那它是不是能夠廣播周知的讓全體的地方的議員或是全體的民眾給他意見 |
transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5582.714 |
transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5601.04 |
transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個地方我並不是很清楚不過我們如果回歸過去有很多的這個所謂的地方的行政區劃議題的我們納入了很多有關於所謂的議會的諮詢諮詢性公投甚至在過去法案裡面有談到民意調查 |
transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5602.233 |
transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5617.363 |
transcript.whisperx[148].text |
科學性的民意調查都可以作為我們所謂的區劃分的一個重要的政策考量我覺得這個地方是可以來思考的我在這裡提出我個人幾點的看法第一個有幾個階段我覺得可以這樣來考慮第一個是專業的規劃 |
transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5620.236 |
transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5644.031 |
transcript.whisperx[149].text |
提出由相關的單位內政部我們的國發會等等國土或行政區劃分的相關單位來評估一個專業的規劃甚至在這個專業規劃裡頭也可以去做一個專業的科學性的一個密調查那當這個規劃出來之後呢我們可以放諸開放所謂的公聽會諮詢會各種方式的意見表達 |
transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5645.253 |
transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5672.235 |
transcript.whisperx[150].text |
第三個我們回到我們的中央政府我們回到我們國會立法院來做最後的決定所以我在建議就是說未來如果情人區劃法是一個專章的時候是一個專法的時候可以考慮有一個地方來規範公民參與的一個專章因為公民參與畢竟是重要的那怎麼樣來規範那個細緻性的公民參與我覺得是有必要來共同思考的以上簡單的說明謝謝 謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝 陳立剛副教授 |
transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5676.092 |
transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5693.58 |
transcript.whisperx[151].text |
下一位我們請姚孟昌助理教授發言姚教授有請主席各位先進以及我們與會的同仁非常謝謝立法院內政委員會特別是牛委員召集今天的會議這會議其實對國人來講非常重要 |
transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5698.322 |
transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5727.528 |
transcript.whisperx[152].text |
但朝野认为没有那么紧要为什么呢因为今天不管我们在讲行政区划不只是在县市的区要如何划分或邻里区要如何划分其实它会碰触到一个非常严肃的问题因为涉及到国家整体的发展这个整体发展涉及到可能世代正义环境正义各式各项新兴的议题都是国家必须要面对 |
transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5728.359 |
transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5753.252 |
transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因此我们在讨论这个议题的时候我个人认为不能只是一直focus在比如说实体或是在程序上面的区别可能我们要有更宏观更远大的一个一个企图才对也就是说我们到底要透过行政区划如何去建构去形塑我们的国家这才是要紧 |
transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5754.554 |
transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5772.65 |
transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那也因此呢其實行政區劃的問題早在1991年台灣進入到民主化之後其實就應該要去處理應該去面對所以我們看到內政部在1992年的時候其實就已經在研擬相關的草案但為什麼一直通過不了三次政黨輪替 |
transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5776.448 |
transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5792.891 |
transcript.whisperx[155].text |
已经过了30年还在讨论这个议题其实我们就可以明白它的关键并不是在立法技术甚至也不是在行政区划的这些立法原则它可能涉及到是基本国策 |
transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5794.434 |
transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5821.431 |
transcript.whisperx[156].text |
可能涉及到基本国策而这部分可能就不是内政部或是立法院可以单方决定可能它的层级要更高所以这个部分是我想我们要点出困难所在第二个为什么会有行政区划的立法技术这个议题在讨论我自己大胆猜测也就是说是不是内政部觉得 |
transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5823.009 |
transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5849.263 |
transcript.whisperx[157].text |
實體的部分很困難不如我們先從程序方面著手可是能不能這樣其實剛剛很多與會先進都已經提出實體跟程序很難區分如果我們再進一步去看不管是行政院版的草案或是包含牛許廷委員領先提出來的草案其實重點很多都是在什麼都已經在程序 |
transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5851.792 |
transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5878.309 |
transcript.whisperx[158].text |
反而實體的部分我可能個人更關切的是立法原則的問題也就我們今天要行政區化你總是有個原則嗎他可以回應到國家發展的需要啦涉及到世代正義環境正義的這些相關議題那那個原則在哪裡我到現在為止我沒有看到這些相關的原則而這個部分呢才是要緊也就你這個程序你總是有一個結果 |
transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5879.229 |
transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5899.446 |
transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那這個結果不是說我們這個世代我們同意這樣的區劃就結束因為我們要對下一代有一個交代也就是說我們今天這樣的一個區分我們背後的考量是什麼那這部分的應該在立法當中要明確說明那我個人是覺得就程序的部分 |
transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5900.992 |
transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5928.413 |
transcript.whisperx[160].text |
特别我要点出来牛许庭委员的版本我看了之后他的程序比行政院的版本更为完备特别是有关民意调查这些公听会的部分这一点我觉得可以补强我们在2018年的时候那时候行政院思考可能不是那么周延的部分可是就原则的部分我想有几点我特别提出来可能我们要去思考 |
transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5929.403 |
transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5942.516 |
transcript.whisperx[161].text |
也就是我們在1990年代以後我們引進了環境影響評估那我們會問這個行政區劃會對於比如說區域的發展區域的平衡國家長遠的發展會產生什麼樣的影響 |
transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5946.604 |
transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5966.441 |
transcript.whisperx[162].text |
有沒有做這樣的評估所以在進行相關立法或討論的時候我們的相關單位不管是內政部不管是經濟部甚至我們的國防部各個單位或交通部都應該把這個評估要拿出來第二個它會涉及到原住民的部分 |
transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5967.571 |
transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5995.619 |
transcript.whisperx[163].text |
比如说原住民的传统领域那你要怎么去区别那我看到就说我们可以请原住民来发表意见了可是原住民来他一定会问嘛那原则是什么你要定这个传统领域的部分那个原则是什么你不是画一画这个就会回到我们过去所犯的错误那第三点呢可能涉及到的是 |
transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5997.318 |
transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6005.361 |
transcript.whisperx[164].text |
要怎么去咨询地方以及那些民意调查的影响的部分这个也应该要思考 |
transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6006.366 |
transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6032.066 |
transcript.whisperx[165].text |
另外我们的行政区划不是一次就一劳永逸他可能要定期检讨比如说在美国他每10年有一次的全民普查的部分我们要不要把这些定期检讨的部分也纳入所以让我们的主管单位能够在区划完之后不断的就影响评估的部分去估算然后去思考下一次 |
transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6032.833 |
transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6061.048 |
transcript.whisperx[166].text |
要改变要调整的部分到底是什么我想这些原则的部分可能是更为重要这是应该在立法技术的部分应该要把它考量到那以下就就提纲的部分我逐一去做回应第一个就行政区块可不可以授权委托给地方自治团体去定定我个人认为宪法已经明定了这是由中央立法中央执行或地方执行 |
transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6062.523 |
transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6085.474 |
transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那地方執行的部分如果有訂定地方自治法規之必要的時候那我們要去區別就是說它只能夠限定在這個地方因為如果有涉及到中央一致或全國一致的事項那這部分的絕對不能夠委辦出去因為這是屬於國會保留事項第三有關的行政區劃法跟地制法的關聯性有關聯 |
transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6086.687 |
transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6114.93 |
transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是各有其重点所以我个人认为是应该要分别去立法第四国人很关心的是公投的制度我有注意看了一下公投的概念里面在纽纬元的版本第12条有纳进去不过纳进去的时候是涉及到如果有中央不与合定了要怎么去处理可是公民投票它会涉及到公民投票法 |
transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6116.192 |
transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6143.577 |
transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那我就在想說那這個到底是屬於公民投票法的什麼樣的性質這是第一個我們要先去釐清第二個部分也就他賦予了中央有交付地方公投的義務那這個呢是很特別因為我們憲法通常是憲法的事項才有交由公民賦決的這個情形那我們等於說增列了一個一個規定到底要不要 |
transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6145.074 |
transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6162.64 |
transcript.whisperx[170].text |
要怎麼定才恰當我覺得這部分要從長計議這不是用一個條文就能夠處理他可能要跟公投法一併去思考以上謝謝謝謝楊光昌助理教授的發言下一位我們請習戴琳副教授發言習副教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6172.078 |
transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6199.517 |
transcript.whisperx[171].text |
主席內政委員會的召集委員 牛委員還有各位學者專家還有行政機關的代表我想大家早安大家好很高興今天能夠接受內政委員會的邀請來就行政區劃的這些相關的議題來提供一些意見我想首先要跟委員會做一下報告我事前雖然沒有提供但是其實我已經有做了一個發言稿想在會後再提供給大家 |
transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6200.487 |
transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6225.522 |
transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我想我們在談這個行政區劃到底是不是要加上程序兩個字我覺得我們如果純粹從法律的角度我們可能去看說它到底是實體法還是程序法但是我不曉得大家知不知道說在109年也就是當108年行政院的提案撤回之後然後再重新現在還在草擬我們再加上程序兩個字 |
transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6227.143 |
transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6252.806 |
transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個是第一次出現在過去30年來所有相關於行政區劃的立法上面第一次出現的程序兩個字所以我想這個台灣在討論所謂行政區劃法如果是從法案來看其實是在美國82年之後的事情民國82年內政部有提了一個行政區劃法的這個草案不過大家應該記得那個時候地方制度法都還不存在嘛民國82年 |
transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6253.747 |
transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6271.721 |
transcript.whisperx[174].text |
同時當時的民進黨籍的立法委員游宏他提出了第一個所謂的委員的版本那這些相關的這些提案即便不會再審查可是歷史資料都還保留在立法院的那個提案的系統其實我們可以看得非常清楚所以我覺得我們看了過去的 |
transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6272.961 |
transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6301.728 |
transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這麼多年的這個版本唯一在法律的名稱上冠上程序兩個字的其實就是那2022年的民眾黨民眾黨的立法院的黨團他們踢了草案叫做行政區化程序法可是因為屆期不連續吧所以我想目前現在我們看得到就是說我們第11屆嘛這個立法院大概只剩下這個主席劉永元的版本還有苗栗的國民黨籍的邱正英、邱永元的這個版本 |
transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6302.088 |
transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6320.432 |
transcript.whisperx[176].text |
就只有這兩個所以我就覺得我們在爭執說那個行政區劃的這個法律的名稱要不要加上程序兩個字可是其實就它的規範的內容雖然比如說我自己我沒有看過那個行政院版的行政區劃法的草案我猜測目前應該是院會都還沒有做決議嘛對不對 |
transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6324.032 |
transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6348.358 |
transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這裡有一些很奇特的故事我想大家應該非常清楚就是說過去30年行政院終於把行政區劃法的草案送到立法院那是我們賴總統在做行政院院長的期間可是等到他去做副總統候選人換了蘇貞昌做行政院院長之後這個法案就沒有了內政部曾經還有新聞稿裡面寫出說因為如何如何 |
transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6349.571 |
transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6376.674 |
transcript.whisperx[178].text |
今天報告也有提到所以我們就加上程序兩個字可是目前也沒有再繼續下去所以我個人覺得是說可能在108年的時候那時候行政院要把這個法案送到立法院可能是覺得有這個立法的急迫性可是沒有想到就過了五年之後這個急迫性似乎現在又消失了所以我並不知道說包括牛委員跟邱委員的這個版本 |
transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6377.515 |
transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6396.825 |
transcript.whisperx[179].text |
比如說國民黨團會不會去支持這當然我們不是講現在可能也許要等九月之後或是現在的賴總統跟我們那個卓院長他們有沒有想要把他放入在立法院的下一個會期的一個所謂的優先法案其實我們並不清楚所以我就覺得 |
transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6398.764 |
transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6422.426 |
transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個法案的名稱要不要加上程序兩個字我認為不是重要的這是第一個議題那第二個問題也就是說可不可以授權或是委託地方自治團體訂定自治法規行之那我們知道在那個憲法108條他是這樣寫就行政區劃事項是由中央立法並執行之馬或交由省縣 |
transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6423.826 |
transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6444.344 |
transcript.whisperx[181].text |
執行之所以從這個觀點我們可以看得到就是立法院他有一個針對所謂的行政區劃實際上他有一個立法的一個獨佔權我想這是沒有什麼太大的這個問題但是我們只是假設假設如果我們要授權給地方這自治團體他去訂定自治法國是說假設 |
transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6445.365 |
transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6466.562 |
transcript.whisperx[182].text |
假設可以,那在訂定的時候我認為他就可以用自治條例那如果用自治條例的方式的話我們就可以讓地方立法機關可以在地方行政機關他提案之後他去審查讓地方立法機關跟行政機關能夠去做一個分工那我要先講那第四個議題跟第二個議題其實有很大的關聯 |
transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6469.364 |
transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6492.095 |
transcript.whisperx[183].text |
也就是說那可不可以做公投呢現在在公投法的那所謂地方性公投的那個事項裡面其實有一個就是針對所謂的地方提出的自治條例也就是我們是假設就我們今天第二個議題如果我們允許地方去訂這個自治條例的話那麼在那個公投法的適用上地方性公投上現在我就認為沒有太大的問題那麼當然 |
transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6495.086 |
transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6515.255 |
transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那個可能剛才已經做報告的這些諸位學術的先進都有提到是說那在那個現階段的這個如果我們用公投的話他可能會滯失一分我想是沒有錯的但是因為目前我們看牛園的版本跟那個秋園的版本都有納入到有關公投的這個機制可是公投是被動行使 |
transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6520.097 |
transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6543.663 |
transcript.whisperx[185].text |
也就是說除非是中央他不與核定我們的改制的那個計畫我們才會去做一個公投那就沒有再講到細節那如果我們公投如果是順應地方的民意公投過了之後那行政機關比如中央要不要遵守講實話我們都知道那今天如果中央自己辦的公投的結果 |
transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6544.443 |
transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6571.548 |
transcript.whisperx[186].text |
按照過去的經驗來看那中央都有100個方法去說服他自己跟說服民眾他不去遵守公投的結果嘛所以我就覺得即便我們現在我們容許我們明明知道說什麼公投是自私議分可是我們保留這個制度因為是被動行使的嘛是一種消極性的防禦那就算我們把他納入那如果這個中央不遵守他當然還有其他的方法這個我們應該很清楚啦所以我覺得 |
transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6573.154 |
transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6579.662 |
transcript.whisperx[187].text |
接下來對不起我回來看這個所謂的第三個問題第三個問題其實已經我們非常清楚了就是說 |
transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6580.802 |
transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6606.721 |
transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那個要不要去訂一個專法或是說是能夠把它在地方置物法裡面另訂一個專章我覺得這都是可以處理的方式不過我覺得我們要留意的就是說現在的地方置物法那個第七條根據第七條之一到之三因為這個是牽涉到有關於縣市合併啊或是什麼如果就改之為直轄市的部分所以如果我們要另訂專法的話那我們應該要把 |
transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6607.321 |
transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6618.25 |
transcript.whisperx[189].text |
地方制度法同時要修正我們要把相關的跟行政區劃有關的就搬到那個新的地方制度地方行政區劃法或是行政區劃程序法嗎那如果我們 |
transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6619.775 |
transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6629.143 |
transcript.whisperx[190].text |
我們不要另訂一個行政區劃的一個專法那我們要在地方制度去訂一個專章的話那我們要把現在已經修正過了他已經適用從2010跟2014兩次第七條的修正就是為了這兩次 |
transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6638.904 |
transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6657.836 |
transcript.whisperx[191].text |
他當然沒有辦法遇到2014年桃園的改制啦也就是說他這個部分可能就要把它移到剛才季教授談到那個專章那所以我覺得如果我們去訂一個專法可是我們把第七條跟第七條之一到之三我們把它保留我就覺得這個在立法體系上來講不是非常的這個恰當 |
transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6658.536 |
transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6675.121 |
transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好那我想再給我30秒鐘我覺得我們還有什麼相關的議題那其實包括剛才那個次長的報告還有很多與會先進都談到有關國土計畫的問題其實我覺得我們更應該去思考就是說我們有沒有那個急迫性啊去做這件事情 |
transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6676.201 |
transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6697.478 |
transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那為什麼在2010跟2014年的時候我們有急迫性,甚至在之前我們已經預防性了,我們就先去修法,然後讓完成直轄市的這個改制。那鄉鎮市區可能面臨的問題是更多嘛。那鄰里的部分,反正那個是地方,就是像地方政府他自己他願意他就可以去進行,就包括新北市目前已經做了。 |
transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6698.118 |
transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6725.866 |
transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以我就覺得我們可能還是要去想想看說目前的170個區跟198個鄉鎮市他那個調整的急迫性民眾是覺得是不是有助於政府的施政效率或是他自己本身是一個行政區化調整之後的一個受益者我覺得如果我們考慮到這種需要調整的急迫性的時候我覺得我們盡速去完成立法那才有意義以上這個意見我想提供給主席跟大會參考 謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6728.035 |
transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6733.177 |
transcript.whisperx[195].text |
謝謝習戴琳副教授下一位我們請林明強特聘教授林教授有請主席 牛委員今天很感謝牛委員的邀請因為國民黨立委很少邀請我們台大法律系的教授 |
transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6757.157 |
transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6767.871 |
transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那這個是樹妹評審我從來沒看過牛尾炎所以剛才把董事長認為是牛尾炎對不起那因為我們的時間只有8分鐘我就很羨慕紀俊成老師他還有30分鐘跟內政部來辯論我們只有8分鐘在講什麼東西那我要寫一個簡單的東西那你看 |
transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6773.598 |
transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6789.499 |
transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個第一頁有關於今天的那個公聽會呢他題目就有問題了他講立法技術表示我們立法院對立法學呢根本就沒有了解這真簡單的問題怎麼會寫立法技術呢立法技術是很具體的程序的規定文字用於應該是得還是因 |
transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6791.461 |
transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6820.17 |
transcript.whisperx[198].text |
要不要怎麼那個才是立法技術嘛啊我寫的書你們都不看嘛這很可惜齁我在台大要教立法學的東西那我再講一遍立法學呢一定有幾個重要的步驟第一個呢現在發生什麼問題嘛第二個呢要不要立法嘛第三個呢要什麼要現行的法規呢去盤點一下有沒有可以應付的東西第四個呢才是規定說要怎麼樣立法才會進入到立法技術去那最後一個呢是要立法影響評估啦那我看下一張好了 |
transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6821.54 |
transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6846.571 |
transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我時間只有八分鐘 現在六分鐘而已第一個呢 我們的問題 我不知道他的問題來問他的五個問題一點意義都沒有嘛第一個問題呢 我們前面一個教授說這是假議題那根本不用回答他的問題嘛程序跟實體沒辦法分嘛 對不對你民眾有你 民眾有我程序跟實體呢 就程序中的實體規定哪些呢 舉證責任就是一個問題嘛公投是個實體問題還是程序問題 |
transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6849.989 |
transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6854.934 |
transcript.whisperx[200].text |
當作屍體問題怎麼是程序問題呢這個不是念法律的人就亂寫一通所以這兩個要分行政程序法裡面有沒有屍體問題有啊 迴避是屍體問題還是程序問題你要迴避的話是屍體問題還是程序問題問你你會回答的話可以離開了你不懂的話要上課嘛好 第一個 |
transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6868.661 |
transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6884.932 |
transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我第一個我贊成繼續老師的意見為什麼呢有沒有立法的必要性要先看看有沒有立法的必要性嘛我居然贊成你我的意見第一個呢不是說憲法108條第一項第二款我再講一遍108條第一項第二款大家講這個東西沒有人去仔細看它的條文是什麼規定的然後 |
transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6887.353 |
transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6906.029 |
transcript.whisperx[202].text |
後面再加一個 泡沫你們有沒有想到這個地方制度法第七條的第一項說要依照法律做行政區法有沒有法律呢 沒有法律啊這是開空頭支票啊我們立法院訂的地方制度法第七條第一項沒有法律啊憲法說要什麼行政區法法有沒有法律呢 沒有嘛 叫憲法義務的卸貸嘛誰卸貸呢 立法院卸貸嘛立法院每一個人都要檢討自己 |
transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6911.394 |
transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6924.109 |
transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這怎麼這樣子呢第二個呢我們法律有沒有缺乏第二個問題我們說第一個呢有沒有立法必要性我答案是跟季俊成老師一樣看法有必要兩個理由第一個呢憲法108號第一項第二款他要中央立法 |
transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6925.25 |
transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6940.909 |
transcript.whisperx[204].text |
第二個呢 行政程序 這個我們地方制度法第七條的第一項規定說要依據法律做行政區劃的調整你沒有法律規定呢 你不是對老百姓開空妥支票嗎那記者老師說 那時候是妥協協商的結果啦現在拖了幾十年都沒有動它 |
transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6941.77 |
transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6961.227 |
transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以紐委員有眼見 紐委員留名簽死這叫做紐委員條款 紐委員是我們行政區劃法的但是因為現在的這個問題是法律上有沒有缺法 這個是第二個問題到底現行的法律有沒有缺法 那我說現行的法律有規定嗎 有啊第七條到七條之三都有規定啊 |
transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6962.328 |
transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6982.209 |
transcript.whisperx[206].text |
幾條啊?四條那我剛才跟據老師討論說呢第七條本身就要修改第七條本身是不對的為什麼呢?因為它需要一些原則性的規定那其實廣義來講的話還有第四條怎麼樣升職俠士那個問題呢?也是行政區劃啊怎麼不是呢?所以第四條要寫進去內政部都不寫第四條有關係嗎?有啊法寫要不重要的國土計劃法 |
transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6983.03 |
transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7003.297 |
transcript.whisperx[207].text |
行政區劃 行政區劃那都不重要的東西重要是什麼 重要是要怎麼樣來對目前的行政區劃哪些問題你用什麼觀點來做批分嘛 第一個呢是歷史傳統文化嗎 不是 絕對不是所以呢 胡柏英教授說呢 這是一個正式性很濃的法案所以國民黨跟民進黨啊 大家都不會推啦一定不會推的 因為什麼 因為他設計到莊稼的問題 |
transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7008.43 |
transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7021.155 |
transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以要政治的變化太大所以國民黨都不敢動啊那民進黨敢動嗎我再也不會動了我再也不會動我是很悲觀的有生之年看不到他這個草案推出來我看到所以今天開會是白開的很可惜第二個呢 |
transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7022.628 |
transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7038.193 |
transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們的改革呢要符合經濟的效能跟最低的規模啦改革就是要符合經濟效能不要說有個縣市政府呢光是發工業薪水就要破產這種東西呢是一個區域化的醜聞嘛一個縣市政府呢連工業薪水都發不出來這種區域化對嗎第三個呢沒有辦法確保地方自治的量能嘛 |
transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7044.168 |
transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7057.807 |
transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以地方的權限都很小 收垃圾嘛要嘛蓋小型的地方工程工作就很少嘛所以財權就不會很多 私權很少嘛所以它不需要區劃再來呢不符合社會跟政治的期待因為什麼是因為我們不符 |
transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7058.868 |
transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7065.974 |
transcript.whisperx[211].text |
不期待做一個大有為的政府啦我們想說小阿美的政府這跟公共行政界想說小阿美的政府啊你現在區劃的話都變成企業併購一樣啊越併越大大吃小對不對然後呢若被強的吃掉那我們的區劃呢就是這樣子喔我跟你講說越來越大越來越強小的東西就被併掉這是什麼這是德國經驗啊德國本來是有400多個縣市現在變成200多個德國面積是台灣10倍 |
transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7085.529 |
transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7100.935 |
transcript.whisperx[212].text |
台灣的十倍那現在他已經三成一半了那等一下會談到這個問題那台灣的問題像什麼像台北市跟新北市像新竹市跟新竹縣嘉義市跟嘉義市還有一些部落地區隔一座山就兩個鄉隔一個海是兩個區這莫名其妙像什麼像台南的鹽水地區為什麼這五個鄉鎮不能併為一區台南鹽水地區台中的大頓地區為什麼不能併在一起 |
transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7114.873 |
transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7128.261 |
transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這都歷史因素嘛 我們今天是用什麼因素 什麼觀點來討論行政區劃這個都不能講清楚 到底是用歷史文化的因素還是用什麼 用日本時代那個定下來的區域呢 還是用政治的算計我答應你 因為是政治算計 |
transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7129.805 |
transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7145.876 |
transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這很簡單嘛 為什麼呢 因為有動手甲過嘛所以當初沒有苗栗嘛 現在有苗栗嗎 有啊為什麼苗栗人都當信徒市市長啊所以他們就不服氣說給他多個苗栗 讓他們去選那從台灣新六度呢 可以規定區域的規劃呢 區域的調整啊 勢在必行這是答案第一個 那看下一張 我時間快到了 來 |
transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7154.642 |
transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7168.379 |
transcript.whisperx[215].text |
區域調整有優點跟缺點不要忘記任何的法規都有優點跟缺點所以立法學一定要指出它優點跟缺點這個優點跟缺點不是純粹法學的東西它要結合今天在座的公共行政甚至你都沒有邀請經濟學界的人來參加 |
transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7170.461 |
transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7190.186 |
transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那第一個呢 行政組織單純化 第二個呢 組織合理化第三個呢 我這個書面呢 在什麼 在學者專家最後一頁有所以不用照相 這邊都有提示那第一個 強化地方知識執法量能 避免財務脆弱能力的支持然後呢 符合現代交通經濟的整合趨勢舉個例子 為什麼要加宜蘭線因為宜蘭呢 隔一座山不好通過 現在呢 有血稅咻就到了 |
transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7197.233 |
transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7215.785 |
transcript.whisperx[217].text |
對不對?宜蘭應該併入什麼?併入新北啊不是嗎?對不對?那新北跟台北呢?接壤地方像什麼?像新北的汐止區跟台北南港區這兩個應該整併嘛因為它是生命共同體的嘛不要雙子星合作企業訂了都又不太履行對不對?那怎麼對呢?這是它的優點我再講一遍地方區的調整呢?可以讓組織呢?單純化變成它比較什麼?比較單純達到最小的經濟規模最合理的經濟規模這是很重要的 |
transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7227.134 |
transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7228.47 |
transcript.whisperx[218].text |
但是他有缺點喔下一張 |
transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7230.185 |
transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7258.004 |
transcript.whisperx[219].text |
第一個呢 這個會有很多什麼 很多政治案件第一個呢 上司接近市民組織呢市民缺乏職階小 然後對什麼對什麼 對那些服務的機構呢 它就越來越嚴比如說呢 你新竹 台中市跟台中縣合併之後呢你要辦事情的話 還好我們台中縣的縣政府呢 還留在豐原還有一個豐原的東西可以辦事情那否則的話 你跑到台中市的話 就很遠喔 不是很近喔所以它會造成什麼 造成跟市民有點距離感所以它有缺點 |
transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7260.565 |
transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7266.888 |
transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那我換妹妹寫第二個缺點政治的效應極其大這要寫進去 我不要寫在上面政治效應非常大 為什麼跟選區現在目前脫鉤呢跟轄區現在要去脫鉤的比如說板橋可以選兩個立法委員為什麼可以選兩個立法委員對不對 這個很有趣啊為什麼很多我們台北市大安區只有選一個立法委員而已最近又要罷免了 對不對所以這個都很有趣啊 再下一張 |
transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7288.325 |
transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7300.609 |
transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我用德國的歷史 等一下你可以聽聽我們的紀老師的法國歷史德國有做區域改革嗎 有 有區域改革1967年到1978年之間 大量減少縣市 大量減少鄉鎮市大概縣市已經變成200多個 |
transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7305.611 |
transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7327.137 |
transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那鄉鎮市本來是有幾千個變成現在變成只有減半兩千多個但是它的人口數目就增加經濟規模就增大所以它的優點那手段它制定什麼制定一個區域調整法那區域調整法是一個專法所以我就要贊成專法我不再贊成季老師的說在二章之一加一個一章我覺得應該專法你說你永遠的專法應該是對的 |
transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7328.997 |
transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7340.101 |
transcript.whisperx[223].text |
為什麼呢 他條文不是二十多條而已的啊因為我們今天沒有進入到牛委員或是邱委員的提案這兩個提案呢 應該進來之後呢 加上內政部提案因為他們沒有提供給我們啊 你說你上網去查啊但是呢 那個東西呢 八分鐘講不完啊這應該另外再給我三十分鐘齁 對不對要三十分鐘講 慢慢講才有辦法說 講到到底是哪一個東西嘛哪一個版本是有用力的比如說牛委員的版本啊 加上邱委員版本加上內政部版本 加起來之後呢 就perfect的條文嘛 |
transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7355.487 |
transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7361.309 |
transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那這要多少時間呢?8分鐘講得完嗎?講不完,就一直按鈴,沒辦法再來呢,德國效果評估,德國的草案是由他們聯邦國會通過的但是它有授權地方制定更細的執行規範所以很多人亂解釋說,108條的第一項第二款沒有給地方的權限胡說八道,你有沒有上過憲法啊?我在台大教四年憲法 |
transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7380.535 |
transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7401.28 |
transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個呢 讓地方執行的話 這個執行的權限呢 就可以定執行的什麼 自治條例 當然可以啊那紀老師想更細說啊 譬如說呢 鄰里跟鄉鎮呢 就地方去規定我們就規定什麼 規定憲法上的自治組織呢 神 現在就被動神了但是呢 直轄市跟縣市呢 我們可以規定 |
transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7402.02 |
transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7428.063 |
transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以鄉鎮市跟後面的那個林里我們可以由地方來決定所以這個是108條第一項第二款的解釋因為由地方來執行的話地方要法規才能夠執行哪個是法規呢自治條例怎麼可以不行怎麼說不行怎麼解釋呢這憲法有沒有及格基本的憲法知識都沒有這當然是一個非法所以德國效果評估是部分成功部分失敗 |
transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7428.843 |
transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7449.898 |
transcript.whisperx[227].text |
為什麼呢?因為德國聯邦憲法說這個改革法律是合憲的合憲的那我們的合憲我的猜測雖然不是大法官但是我可以說這個符合憲法裡面的108條第二項第一項的第二款的規定完全合憲啦怎麼會沒有怎麼會違憲呢?然後呢為什麼呢?他有缺陷不貼近民意人民喇喪失職業參與的機會為什麼呢?他沒有公投啦德國沒有公投德國制度是沒有公投你再聽一聽看這個 |
transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7457.56 |
transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7472.475 |
transcript.whisperx[228].text |
季老師他說法國等一下他會講法國是公投沒有過所以公投進去的話一定不會過那我說你可以調整一下讓公投參加投票的人超過二分之一同意的話就可以繼續調整不要說總人數的二分之一總人數一定不會過 |
transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7473.576 |
transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7496.931 |
transcript.whisperx[229].text |
總共是20幾個 只要參加人只有30%人投票但是60%人贊成區域調整的話 就讓他過嘛 對不對那這個要怎麼樣 這個要並同修改公投法 所以中選會要來嘛那管公投法 所以呢 公投法不修訂怎麼辦呢很簡單 我們定在我們的區域調整法裡面把它規定說 這個成績過程當中要加上一個公投要件 |
transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7497.867 |
transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7525.023 |
transcript.whisperx[230].text |
不管是從下而上或上而下德國是從上而下來的它是因為經濟規模有下面的話他們的歷史因素他們會有不法接受所以公投不會過所以他們沒有公投那這個叫做區域調整法這個法案可以再講二三十分鐘這個非常細的東西好那下一張 最後一張那總是要回答你們的問題所以我把技術良知拿掉我告訴你沒有技術良知那區域法應該包括實體跟程序的規定才是個完整立法 |
transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7526.204 |
transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7534.379 |
transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這很簡單 這個沒有一個學者反對的對不對 我如果你說 請問哪些要件可以做區域調整 要件是實體的程序 |
transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7535.407 |
transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7555.783 |
transcript.whisperx[232].text |
你要不要規定?大家規定啊,難嗎?不難嘛,怎麼會難呢?你抄法國抄德國法就可以拿出來,日本法規定啊,都有啊都可以翻什麼什麼,用checkGDP翻成中文就可以看了,沒有問題的第二個呢?第二個呢?第二個問題是具體區劃法可以授權地方資產你訂定啊,自治法規,答案是可以的啦,主要是不行呢? |
transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7556.443 |
transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7577.988 |
transcript.whisperx[233].text |
當然可以啊 為什麼呢?憲法108的第一項接管它只是規定中央的國會可以做框架立法具體實施的話是可以交由地方自治團體來訂定自治法規來規範更細的東西嘛這才是對的嘛 怎麼會錯呢?怎麼說不行呢?這是全國一致性質嗎?哪有呢?我說台南的鹽水地帶這個調整難道還是全國一致的嗎?全國都是鹽水地帶嗎? |
transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7583.889 |
transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7592.651 |
transcript.whisperx[234].text |
想想看你也知道,對啊,台中大敦呢?大敦是一個生活的、文化的、歷史的一個脈絡,對不對?一個部落因為一條河川,部落住在河流的兩岸,卻形成兩個區、兩個鄉鎮,這個對嗎?他們講一樣的原住民語言,就要分成兩個地方,這樣我們的中華民國區劃是莫名其妙。 |
transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7605.894 |
transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7615.984 |
transcript.whisperx[235].text |
莫名其妙 甚至於開會都要翻兩個會通我們台大的實驗營就有策劃那種情形一座山的兩邊 兩個部落不願意同時來開會為什麼呢 因為是兩個鄉鎮 莫名其妙然後第三個問題 自治法跟區法關係如何是應該自定專法還是自治法規裡面增加那個不是一筆是一張 |
transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7628.991 |
transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7647.902 |
transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我覺得參考德國立法因為他條文看起來不會第二十條我不再贊成一張我認為說應該特別立法德國的例子就特別立法他的例子他條文的規模之多讓人匪夷所思因為他們德國立法技術就是非常細緻一張一條可能就七八項一項七八款 |
transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7651.624 |
transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7669.042 |
transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這很細很細的規定 這個在劣勢呢 奧地呢 沒有像德國人這麼複雜再來第四個呢 民眾參與跟公民參與 這是德國最大的區域改革縣市因為什麼 因為它的區域改革呢 是由上而下 不是由下而上台灣的區域變動呢 有兩種方式 一種是由上而下的 |
transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7670.253 |
transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7687.416 |
transcript.whisperx[238].text |
由行政院來或是我們內政部來決定要不要做區域調整那我們缺乏由下而上的這種區域調整什麼叫下而上民眾自發性的比如說因為馬祖遶境因為馬祖的管轄權只有在北港而已 |
transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7688.514 |
transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7710.284 |
transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他沒有辦法到哪裡呢到其他地方去所以我們就把整個區變成一個地方也可以啊這是人民的想法對不對然後呢民眾參與呢我覺得這個呢公投法一定不會改變我跟你保證公投法效力一定很差那我們在規定在哪裡呢規定在我們的有關於行政區發法草案裡面把公投的程序呢列為他啟動程序的一環 |
transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7711.204 |
transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7731.992 |
transcript.whisperx[240].text |
要經過地方的公投之後才可以進行那這個效率呢中央主管機關不可以視而不見因為我們常常看到說公投完之後呢沒有通過結果政府機關不理他哪一個呢?廢核嘛有用嗎?沒有用嘛你怎麼樣?就在這裡面在行政區域裡面規定效率對不對那萬一公投過的話呢 |
transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7733.533 |
transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7754.333 |
transcript.whisperx[241].text |
公投法本身就要修改它的公投要件包括這個東西在內要叫包裹修法中華民國立法院從來沒有包裹修法的概念所以這個法律通過之後要修改哪一個第一個要修改地方制度法第二個要修改國土計劃法第三個要修改財政收入發文法第四個要修改公投法 |
transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7755.199 |
transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7778.415 |
transcript.whisperx[242].text |
如果修改啊 這個整個包裹修法才能完整避其功一役嘛這很重要 很基本概念但是呢 講了半天 講了三四十年都沒有人聽這個立法院就是這樣沒有辦法去好好的去討論這個問題所以第四 第五個其他問題這個問題呢 我覺得是最重要 今天沒有人談到到底我們的行政區劃法的達成目標是什麼目標文化歷史嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7782.026 |
transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7799.138 |
transcript.whisperx[243].text |
還是經濟效能呢 還是政治社會跟選區的融合我就講說 大家不願意把它掀出來嘛 為什麼呢因為它是政治性很高 第三個政治社會融合就是一個政治性很高的法案嘛它會造成國民黨跟民進黨 甚至民眾黨都會很反彈民眾黨不知道會不會啦 我不知道大家國民黨民眾都不敢動 因為國民黨執政從來不敢把這個行政區劃法推出檯面 |
transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7810.287 |
transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7816.333 |
transcript.whisperx[244].text |
民進黨的時候呢 更不是願意 因為那就是莊角嘛我動莊角的利益呢 我這本身就會什麼就會皮脂不純啊 毛漿煙腐啊對不對 那皮就不在啦對不對 都被你整病完啊那你為什麼 你會下次選舉呢 會很悲慘所以我認為說不急切啦 今天開會結論說不要急啦 慢慢來 |
transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7831.668 |
transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7840.379 |
transcript.whisperx[245].text |
大家共識討論完之後呢 20年以後再說嘛所以我說有生之年不會通過這個草案啦因為什麼 因為政治利益太大了你要把一個鄉 一個區 一個鄰 一個鄰把它變遁整理成為一個經濟規模的一個自治團體的話 |
transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7846.747 |
transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7865.658 |
transcript.whisperx[246].text |
超乎想像的難在台灣的話是超乎想像的難這是我的簡單的看法不好意思超過太多時間那這個意見僅供參考雖然說只是一個潑冷水但是希望牛委員應該有毅力直接面對困境往前走對不對你總會走過的痕跡會留下歷史紀錄人家會記得牛委員不記得其他人了好 謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7872.401 |
transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7895.192 |
transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好,謝謝林平江教授,這鏗鏘有力,而且大家聽得津津有味,所以稍微超時一下是沒有關係的。我跟各位學者專家報告一下,其實當初我們提行政區劃法,這個理想當然是比較高。我的選區貴山,裡面有一個角落叫回龍,電話區碼是02開頭的,基本上跟新北市是同一個生活圈,但它因為行政區劃的關係在桃園。 |
transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7896.713 |
transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7910.301 |
transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我在當年競選議員的時候2018年第一次競選議員的時候在那個地方的主打就是我們應該檢討這件事我們那時候會這樣提這樣的一個政見其實就是因為當初2018年剛剛也有教授有講到那時候行政院正在討論行政院跟立法院正在討論行政區劃法 |
transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7912.402 |
transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7935.786 |
transcript.whisperx[249].text |
結果後來不知道發生什麼事反正藉其不連續或怎麼樣就沒下文但我想這是我跟回籠鄉親一個承諾不管有沒有成功我們總要勇敢的往前走所以我們很在乎這樣子的一個案子那我們提案一向的理想都非常豐滿我們能夠想到的好的概念我們會先丟但我們請教的時候非常謙卑所以謝謝包含李平鄉教授非常精準的回答今天各位也提供了很多不同的意見這些意見我再次承諾 |
transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7936.246 |
transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7961.956 |
transcript.whisperx[250].text |
都會成為未來在立法院討論的時候很重要的參考依據我想今天經過學者專家大家的討論跟辯論之後很多意見有提前收束之後未來委員之間彼此之間也就沒什麼好操嘴的因為他們一旦要提什麼到底是實體還是程序什麼什麼的大家都有學者專家的記錄可及這我想對於推動法案審查的效率會有非常正面的積極的影響我們會繼續努力好 下一位我們請江明修特定教授請江教授有請 謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7975.529 |
transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8004.241 |
transcript.whisperx[251].text |
主席在座所有先進大家早安剛剛聽完林明湘教授的課以後覺得好像髮洗充滿我們不必這麼悲觀當然我們也知道他就是一個預言家或許今天所討論的所有議題都是一百年後還會再重新討論到時候我們又要問我們自己這是怎麼樣的一個國家 |
transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8005.645 |
transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8033.577 |
transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這需要在座每一個人對整個國家未來的發展多多少少都應該進行一份責任感使命感我上次很多很多年前來參加立法院公聽會的時候那次的公聽會給我印象非常不好十個學者專家中有九個贊成國營事業民營化就一個反對後來記者就來問我說江教授為什麼只有你一個人反對呢 |
transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8034.482 |
transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8064.111 |
transcript.whisperx[253].text |
他說因為只有你沒有拿那時候叫經建會沒有拿他的委託案聽了以後當下就覺得說這是怎麼樣的一個國家所謂國營事業民營法現在證明他就是就是財團吃國家馬沒有被吃掉現在還在繼續攻陷我們的國家那今天又是又是企業那個併購的問題了現在就是說政府之間怎麼併購的問題當然從法理上來看的話有很多的 |
transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8065.816 |
transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8094.529 |
transcript.whisperx[254].text |
都是值得做 應該做的事情所以我剛剛也問了一個學者 趙永茂教授到底這個行政區判的它整個立法的動力是什麼那我們不願意說 只是從一個政治權力的角度來看誰得利 誰將得利這樣談的話 把這個國家看太低了我們國家的真正的所謂政治經濟菁英共同的共識是什麼 |
transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8096.287 |
transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8111 |
transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這才是我們學術專項所關心的嘛也是我們民眾所關心的嘛所以今天剛剛所談的很多很具體的討論包括法律所謂的技術問題的討論的話我就給它跳過去我做一些反思 |
transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8115.114 |
transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8143.562 |
transcript.whisperx[256].text |
台灣的行政企劃它不是憑空而出的所有公共政策它都有歷史的淵源可是如果說我們探索這個淵源的時候我們很多問題是沒有辦法從根本上來解決清帝國時期為什麼會那時候被一釜三線最後在最後要被日本統治前十年倉促建省到時候那時候所有事情都還沒有完備包括很多憲令都還沒有拍的時候 |
transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8144.558 |
transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8172.195 |
transcript.whisperx[257].text |
倉促建設也就是說每一個行政區發的變通他都有他的國際跟國內的需求日治時期的變通也是很清楚的為了他殖民統治的需求還有很多向南南向政策還包括說他的整個經濟的掠奪等等都是跟日治時期都可以考證出來的 |
transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8173.547 |
transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8199.065 |
transcript.whisperx[258].text |
然後呢 到中華民國的時候呢 剛剛好像是習委員 又是林明祥委員 開玩笑苗栗縣的設立本身 這很清楚的嘛桃竹苗的那個無家勢力太大了 設一個縣分掉它的力量這些都是政治上的角力 可是呢 我們學者不能只有談政治 |
transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8199.858 |
transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8214.922 |
transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們還要談一個說真正為台灣未來好的制度設計是什麼到目前為止我們是六都十六縣市簡單來說在六都十六縣市今天的真正問題在哪裡就是直轄市的規定為什麼直轄市的規定是讓直轄市獨大讓十六縣市無從發展 |
transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8225.476 |
transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8239.123 |
transcript.whisperx[260].text |
這是地方制度法的重大問題應該廢除這個直轄市規定 或是給它做調整不然的話 我們的地方自治永遠沒有機會翻身地方永遠沒有翻身 繼續沉淪因為我今天不是來上課 很多氣就不講了 竭力容顏 |
transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8247.113 |
transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8274.733 |
transcript.whisperx[261].text |
今天我們行政區發一定要談這個東西嘛行政區發最後的真正的影響是影響到老百姓嗎沒有影響到老百姓影響到政客的利益而已啦是不是就是你看馬上就是變直轄市以後呢選區很多不見了很多政客沒有地方去了然後我們有很多很多的討論好那沒有辦法培養政治人才不管那個人才是黑色的還是紅色的還是藍色的還是綠色的 |
transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8276.377 |
transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8291.889 |
transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們姑且命名為政客或政治家需要培養的竭力容顏跟行政取法絕對是相生不相克所以我們要思考這個問題再來再度提醒這個國家需要談社會公平正義的不能只有經濟發展效益馬上就是所斷面的 |
transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8304.005 |
transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8320.614 |
transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們民主生發的問題大規模的合併意味著什麼地方政治的自治的降級我們現在還有地方自治嗎我們沒有了只有中央一權獨大然後獨大到行政院嗎立法院也沒有在總統府這是有問題的國家我們的公共服務呢一味追求效率經濟規模其他的都不顧了嘛三峽地區 |
transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8333.513 |
transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8362.288 |
transcript.whisperx[264].text |
或者是烏來都不用有公車的嗎大府卓蘭池潭都沒有公車的然後越是越窮的人越沒有資源去移動這是一個合理的國家嗎偏向地線服務據點可能面臨被裁車後整變是對的經濟上來看是對的可是實質上要怎麼服務他們我前兩天在那個普延彰化普延 |
transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8363.288 |
transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8390.468 |
transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我跟一群朋友創辦了一個兒童偏鄉的健康守護組織三年了 到那邊去非常感動可是更加嚴重是我們沿海地區的單親兒童還有沒有被照顧到的孩子一大堆天龍國很難看到這種現象這是真實在台灣 我們台灣不能有兩個一個叫非常有錢 一個叫非常沒有希望 |
transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8391.844 |
transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8398.526 |
transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這是我們談權政區法的時候一定要考慮到社會公平正義的問題再來呢 在地認同是我嗎好 那我跳過去在地認同好 我現在都念標題了啦還是我可以比照靈敏特評教授就是可以特選講法嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8419.42 |
transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8446.427 |
transcript.whisperx[267].text |
所以在地認同也很重要我們台灣位在哪裡台灣最美好的風景在人情位我們的嚴峰地區的文學這麼窮鄉僻壤出現這麼多文學家我們在最窮困的地方我們有最好的台灣文學家出現所以我們需要維持我們的在地位在歷史跟獨特的文化的鄉鎮裡面我們的在地性跟人文氣息是不是可以保存我們需要empower我們的地方 |
transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8447.045 |
transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8463.331 |
transcript.whisperx[268].text |
而不是一直把剝奪把它當成一個偏遠的地方然後最後把它丟在一旁邊最好不要看到因為它對國際的大都會來看的話他們是好像看起來是我們的恥辱我們不應該如此所以實際上來看的話就是說好實際上來看的話我現在一一回答好了雖然問題林教授都已經回答得很好了行政區罷要實流程序 |
transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8475.444 |
transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8504.697 |
transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我覺得這個時候要反思的是地方自治精神是不是可以回到我們的法的立法的過程關鍵地方自治跟地方創生是否還是我們所珍惜的第二個 行政區辦是否授權跟委辦我認為是要從中央授權到地方的賠利要同時去思考我們需要建立一個公平透明的法律框架我們要最大程度的 empower 地方 |
transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8505.489 |
transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8534.614 |
transcript.whisperx[270].text |
而不是只是授權跟委扮當然我們知道地方的情況很多很令人失望地方的黑金還有地方的派系幾乎是盤根錯節無法動搖可是呢他們也是台灣的一部分我們要如何培立更好的公民社會力量來對抗這些黑金跟這些派系的盤根錯節然後也標榜了黑金跟黑金跟派系的第二代第三代第四代 |
transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8535.868 |
transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8562.493 |
transcript.whisperx[271].text |
如果上過林明湘老師的課說不定他們也會質辯會不會改變成另外一種甚至促進地方的公民社會力量我現在當然有點開玩笑的心思但是現在整個方向上我們還是要 empower 地方專法跟地方制度法的關係的話我現在覺得地方制度法就是一個惡法它的深隔迷失非常有問題回歸到適當規模的治理 |
transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8563.851 |
transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8591.113 |
transcript.whisperx[272].text |
打破縣市合併 擴大規模就能提升所謂建真地的迷思現在從中央往地方很多的公共政策下去的時候民眾怎麼看法浪漫台三線老百姓說你的浪漫我的悲哀就是如此而已嘛美麗口號之下的話老百姓有機會改變自己跟改變自己的家庭改變他的階層嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8594.022 |
transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8609.011 |
transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為社會階層流動這個問題在行政區法裡面如果不好好審視的話包括我們原住民的文化本身的永續的問題當臺灣的原住民已經慢慢在淪喪的時候就是說他的整個發展在淪喪的時候我們的臺灣的特色是不是就沒有了福爾摩沙就已經沉淪了第四個公民投票這個問題 |
transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8624.318 |
transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8651.628 |
transcript.whisperx[274].text |
或者是我們在法裡面所謂的公民複決我想大家就清楚公民投票跟公民複決是不同的但不管如果就是說 顯示區發的變更本身它不可能像剛剛好像是內政部還哪裡的這個說明書裡面提的它說無關於民眾 只有政治體制的連結而已我剛剛稍微翻頁一下 我覺得非常大策拓策 |
transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8653.038 |
transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8679.452 |
transcript.whisperx[275].text |
行政西方一定是影響到我們居民的權益因為還有我們的生活方式跟我們所認同的我們祖先世世代代所生活在這個地方所產生的人多的集體記憶所以這個公民參議院不只是象徵性的點綴它其實應該成為整個區域規劃過程中的核心動力跟引導的關鍵力量所以我是贊成說我是覺得不管叫公民復席或公民投票一定要引進最後一個是要其他 |
transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8682.751 |
transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8700.615 |
transcript.whisperx[276].text |
其他我就一個富裕 倡議民主的審判還是我們要繼續努力去做的目前的整個政治的鬥爭 贏到的時候各排鬼胎完全紗縫了眼 完全不顧我們民眾不顧我們台灣的發展如此的沒有對話的團結是有問題的從被動的諮詢到主動的賦權聽起來多麼是天方夜譚 |
transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8711.877 |
transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8732.874 |
transcript.whisperx[277].text |
作為一個學者在立法院這樣的一個神聖的殿堂裡面我們必須要去呼籲我們還是要有一個前瞻性的看法把這個相關慈禧的一些議題來看從前端的父權我覺得我們應該有社區宴會 審議會議不管任何的公共政策我想相關行政程序法 |
transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8736.309 |
transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8763.363 |
transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個資訊公開法都有相關的設計都可以去參考的從過程中的賦權公民社會組織要讓它恢復到它的自主性不要再用政治經濟去收買他們讓他們有實力去做一些地方建設跟監督的工作法律賦予NPO社區大學等等這些公民組織有更制度性的一些角色 |
transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8764.048 |
transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8788.967 |
transcript.whisperx[279].text |
負責組織的相關的議題的審議會診民間的意見監督程序的公開透明就是說我們的社會不在於說直接就是個人派系就是政治決定或者個人直接就上到那個就是說中央跟地方之間完全沒有buffer我們的社會需要有很多很多這樣的像生態公法一樣的公民組織穩定我們的社會最末端的父權 |
transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8792.911 |
transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8811.28 |
transcript.whisperx[280].text |
讓公民投票作為最終的權力的防線如果行政機關有最後的核定結果的話跟我們地方領區的共識有重大落差的時候必須有最終的解決機制對不起 林明鏘教授 那不是大法官那應該是公民投票以上我簡單的提供一點前件 謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8815.929 |
transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8825.435 |
transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個報告委員會我們待會在這個陳艾爾副教授發言結束之後休息五分鐘上上廁所什麼的下面我們請陳艾爾副教授發言陳副教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8833.362 |
transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8862.603 |
transcript.whisperx[282].text |
主席還有各位委員各位先進大家好因為只有八分鐘而且我打算遵守時間所以我直接就針對這個議題來說明首先關於行政區劃法律應該以實體法還是程序法來規定我覺得這個取決於什麼叫行政區劃所謂行政區劃是指行政區域的新設廢止或調整 |
transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8864.024 |
transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8881.382 |
transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就這個部分來講 我個人認為單純程序的規制不可能原因是因為光是要談行政區劃的新設費值或調整 它就一定要有實質的標準 |
transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8882.583 |
transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8904.438 |
transcript.whisperx[284].text |
就是為什麼要調整他總是要有要件這個不是只是調整了以後會有哪一些法律後果那這些法律後果要不要規定的問題而已這最根本的關鍵那林教授還有江明修教授也都提到為何要做區劃調整那那個部分的實質的要件顯然必須要納入所以 |
transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8905.098 |
transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8930.227 |
transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就這個部分來講這是第一個我想做的答覆那第二個這個部分其實應該也不影響內政部所規劃的說希望能夠強化行政區劃的這個調整的應該要遵守的程序這個兩個其實是不相妨礙的這是第一個那關於第二個議題就是關於行政區劃的事項可不可以授權或委辦地方自治團體來訂定自治法規 |
transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8931.207 |
transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8947.706 |
transcript.whisperx[286].text |
就這部分我要說行政企劃在我們憲法108條第一項第二款是明訂左列四項由中央立法並執行或交由省縣執行也就是說除了中央立法以外其實是可得交由省縣來 |
transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8949.007 |
transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8961.257 |
transcript.whisperx[287].text |
執行的從這個角度來講這個就這個執行的部分本來就不是不能交給地方來做這是第一個那第二個其實如果我們去看這個從107年以來的 |
transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8965.36 |
transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8981.056 |
transcript.whisperx[288].text |
行政區劃的相關的法案都可以看得出來大家也都實際上體認到這個行政區劃的調整跟地方息息相關然後所以其實也大部分都是賦予給地方自治團體發動的發動提案的權利 |
transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8985.04 |
transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9008.077 |
transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那從這個角度來說其實有很大的關於行政企劃的調整的流程其實必須要由地方來辦理然後必須要地方來遂行那就這個角度來講在這個層面上面這個行政企劃的相關的法律的草案裡面也顯現出來他本身就會在法律裡面賦予給相關地方知識團體 |
transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9009.378 |
transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9036.501 |
transcript.whisperx[290].text |
辦理的這個權限那如果針對這些法律賦予給地方自治團體辦理的權限有必要要來訂定這個相關的法規的話我看不出來為什麼一定要排斥說地方針對這個部分沒有訂地方自治法規的空間那另外我也要提醒這個內政部在這個公聽會的報告裡面我也仔細拜讀過其實寫得非常好那但是 |
transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9037.262 |
transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9053.563 |
transcript.whisperx[291].text |
在裡面有提到關於都市計劃法國土計劃法這些空間規劃的法制都沒有授權地方政府另外用自治條例來訂不同的規定這個部分我覺得要很小心這個都市計劃法的第85條其實是授權 |
transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9055.525 |
transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9059.13 |
transcript.whisperx[292].text |
直轄市來訂相關都市計畫法的施行細則這是都市計畫長久以來的這個傳統因為那個地方涉及到都市各地方知識團體的這個地方規劃的高權的這個部分所以我們這個將來 |
transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9073.007 |
transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9082.53 |
transcript.whisperx[293].text |
內政部在寫這些落筆的部分其實建議要更加慎重所以其實就這部分我的結論就是當然他不能抵觸中央就一致性的事項來立法的這個界限但是他應該還是會有就他被賦權的部分有定自治法規的空間那第三個議題是關於行政區劃跟地方制度法的關係 |
transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9100.154 |
transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9124.89 |
transcript.whisperx[294].text |
其實會談到這樣的問題最重要的應該是因為地方制度法第7條然後跟第7條之1到第7條之3針對跟這個行政區劃有關的部分有部分的條文那其實我覺得最核心的這個原則性的條文是在第7條那他提到這個 |
transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9126.251 |
transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9144.704 |
transcript.whisperx[295].text |
關於省直轄市縣市等等的新設廢止調整依法律規定定之其實就這部分來講其實就是要準備有其他的法律來做規定那另外這個要改制直轄市的規定是依本法那就是依照地方制度法那至於鄉里林的 |
transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9145.864 |
transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9170.558 |
transcript.whisperx[296].text |
編組跟調整是由直轄市縣市來認定其實就第7條本身的一個立法設計上面他其實就已經做了安排那我認為說這個修法最小的空最小的最務實的做法其實就是還是要有一個行政區劃法那他可以跟地方制度法目前的條文做很好的配套基本上也會彌補了 |
transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9172.679 |
transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9178.261 |
transcript.whisperx[297].text |
剛才提到的這個林穎香老師提到的這第七條第一項那是空的這個部分的疑慮那這是第三個這個議題那第四個議題是關於行政區劃程序當中要不要 |
transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9189.586 |
transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9205.207 |
transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個納入公民投票的制度那要怎麼樣來增進這個公民參與跟程序的保障應該這樣說我想要第一個要指出的是德國在他的基本法第29條關於邦的區域的變更是明定 |
transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9206.629 |
transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9219.108 |
transcript.whisperx[299].text |
應有公民投票的決定才可以這個是德國在聯邦的層級唯一有規定要公投的事項可見對於改變邦的這個區劃的這個部分 |
transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9221.371 |
transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9237.769 |
transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他認為這是極為重要而且跟民眾息息相關的這個事項那我也很贊成剛剛江明修老師特別提到內政部的公聽會的報告裡面有提到說關於行政區劃的調整只跟地方自治團體有關跟地方住民有關這個真的不應該這樣寫啦 |
transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9241.952 |
transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9257.758 |
transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個完全是從這個行政的角度出發然後完全忘掉說這個區劃調整這個政治有政治的權力的考量是一回事然後但是這個不能忘掉行政區劃它對地方住民的直接的影響所以應該講說都市應該講行政區劃的這個部分我認為啦 |
transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9265.22 |
transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9282.987 |
transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個保留公民投票的空間不是不可以那因為也有外國的立法力但是這是屬於立法政策的問題這我們並沒有像德國是把它規定在憲法裡面這是立法政策的問題那如果立法政策上面認為說反正有公民投票法如果真的要做公投的話就去做 |
transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9283.587 |
transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9306.763 |
transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那但是至少要在行政區劃法裡面考量到這個行政區劃對地方住民的深刻的影響至少在兩個部分應該要強化這個公民參與的部分一個部分是關於地方自治的團體在提出相關計畫的時候應該要有比較嚴肅的公民的參與另外一個關鍵的點就是中央主管機關在核定這個計畫的時候這兩個核心的關鍵的階段應該強化公民參與 |
transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9314.368 |
transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9325.531 |
transcript.whisperx[304].text |
最後這個議題我也贊成我們內政部在公聽會的報告裡面的相關的說明 以上謝謝陳艾爾副教授報告委員會我們休息五分鐘 |
transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9339.07 |
transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9366.971 |
transcript.whisperx[305].text |
謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9367.312 |
transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9370.606 |
transcript.whisperx[306].text |
響鐘 |
transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9716.411 |
transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9726.257 |
transcript.whisperx[307].text |
好 各位學者專家請坐 我們繼續進行公聽會下一位我們請這個紀和鈞助理教授發言紀教授有請主席 牛召集人 然後各位先進今天很榮幸能夠接受內政委員會的邀請來就這個 |
transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9744.502 |
transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9760.624 |
transcript.whisperx[308].text |
其實我不太喜歡想那個行政區劃立法技術我覺得就直接講行政區劃法草案我們直接來討論比較合理因為就像前面幾位先進所講的其實這個是一個早就該立法的一個 |
transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9762.162 |
transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9784.226 |
transcript.whisperx[309].text |
立法的疏漏啦不要再等了我是希望不要像林明強老師所講說都一直不定這樣不好其實這個應該早就要定了那因為我們委員會有說我可以做一個powerpoint所以我就做了一些簡單的powerpoint作為我的發言的輔助 |
transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9793.953 |
transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9816.298 |
transcript.whisperx[310].text |
由於本身是法律背景所以我們在討論很多事情的時候都要先問到底法律是什麼如果大家看不到電視螢幕的話我的powerpoint都在書面上面都有了我必須要說其實我們不管是憲法跟帝制法 |
transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9818.354 |
transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9846.57 |
transcript.whisperx[311].text |
早就有行政區劃尤其是地制法其實這個第四條第七條第七條之一都有行政區劃了不然怎麼會有說直轄市縣市鄉鎮市新設調整或者是這個廢止依法律規定行之他沒有這個行政區劃的名字但他有實質啊結果呢 |
transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9848.215 |
transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9868.065 |
transcript.whisperx[312].text |
並沒有這樣的法律這本身是很奇怪的那也許當年地制法在起草的過程中因為他必須要接續兩制法就是我們的省縣自治法跟直轄市市制法的規定再加上過去可能有一些 |
transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9869.165 |
transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9887.838 |
transcript.whisperx[313].text |
法理上的增值所以沒把它訂進去但是已經經過26、7年啦應該要訂啦應該要訂啦那當然我們地制法7之1條是一個很特別的條款就是它是一個升格條款其實它也算是一個行政區劃條款因為我們 |
transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9890.621 |
transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9901.372 |
transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個台中縣市它是合併嘛然後這個當年的台南縣市也是合併高雄市併了高雄縣所以它也有行政區劃的調整啦行政區劃的調整我認為我們縣行如果我們從地質法的角度來看我們的縣行法其實很明確的講 |
transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9913.336 |
transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9936.148 |
transcript.whisperx[315].text |
省 縣 直轄市 縣市以上因為他具有憲法上的地方團體的資格所以他的行政區域的調整一定是法律明定啦一定是法律明定 為什麼因為他具有憲法的地位難道我們可以違憲行為嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9938.382 |
transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9948.408 |
transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那如果針對鄉鎮市而且我們要特別講一個我們現在還多了一個很特別的區叫什麼叫做直轄市山地原住民區喔 |
transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9949.386 |
transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9972.66 |
transcript.whisperx[317].text |
他的這個行政區劃的變更應該是屬於什麼可以交由縣市還有直轄市以前直轄市是沒有下級地方知識團體可是現在他有了他必須他可以承擔這樣的責任再還有什麼就是村裡村裡的這個改變甚至後來造成了一次的大法官解釋 |
transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9975.371 |
transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9990.137 |
transcript.whisperx[318].text |
為什麼我們在講行政區劃的時候我拜讀了我們內政部還有各部會的書面意見當然就如前面的先進所講內政部作為主管部會寫的最完整的但是呢似乎 |
transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9990.737 |
transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10010.231 |
transcript.whisperx[319].text |
好像也覺得說行政區劃就是一個程序規定對實質沒什麼改變或沒什麼影響但是我們看我們這個4-498跟4-553它都告訴我們一件事情就是地方自治團體是屬於住民自治是屬於 |
transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10011.773 |
transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10036.51 |
transcript.whisperx[320].text |
垂直權力分立它跟基本民主法治原則有關係所以當然有實體的需求所以硬要把它區分成程序跟實體我如同前面的先進所言我認為這是一個不太適當的法律政策的選擇 |
transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10041.701 |
transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10057.779 |
transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以呢我針對第一個議題就是行政區劃法授權到底是要委辦還是授權我個人認為我們應該要問他是不是具有憲法上地方自治的這樣的團體地位為準 |
transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10058.94 |
transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10085.336 |
transcript.whisperx[322].text |
為什麼我在這個省打了一個問號因為我們原來的憲法的地方制度章是以省縣為主但是現在我們其實是以直轄市為主了所以省變成一個問號可是大家要注意喔當年經省的時候不管是省的工人業務的這個調整它還是有法律明定制喔它並不是 |
transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10086.417 |
transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10104.425 |
transcript.whisperx[323].text |
行政院想怎麼做什麼,而且為了這件事情,4-498還特別討論到底省是不是具有,不,4-467還特別問,省是不是具有獨立的地方自治團體的身份,還是它只是行政院的所謂的派出機關 |
transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10108.186 |
transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10125.896 |
transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以這是一個很重要的議題更不要講直轄市縣市它還存在不管是憲法本文跟徵求條文它都存在的時候它如果改變當然需要法律授權至於鄉鎮市還有直轄市山地原住民區 |
transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10127.037 |
transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10147.483 |
transcript.whisperx[325].text |
還有區跟村裡我認為這是相當地方自治地方分權的這個概念應該要由他們自己委託我們中央第一個框架式的法律由他們訂定自治條例自治法規應該是自治條例不可以自治規則啦自治條例呢來做調整來做調整這個由於這個 |
transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10155.107 |
transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10178.406 |
transcript.whisperx[326].text |
在受這個邀請之前我有稍微去爬梳了一下相關的各國的這樣的一個地方行政區劃的這個改革因為我比較熟悉的是法國所以我就用法國的例子來跟大家做介紹其實法國大家認為他是中央集權國家可是他從1982年以後大規模的推地方分權 |
transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10179.227 |
transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10197.374 |
transcript.whisperx[327].text |
大家看看這是法國近二十年來的地方行政區劃改革這只是五個主要的法律喔其實他每年都在改喔尤其是什麼尤其是他這個當時在改的時候是由什麼是由薩科西當總統的時候委請前總理 |
transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10201.866 |
transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10211.369 |
transcript.whisperx[328].text |
組了一個委員會專門來推地方分權這件事情還出了一本很厚很厚的報告這是他們每一任總統在講為什麼因為我們要配合現實的環境我跟前面幾位老師師長有一些比較不同的意見是我認為直轄市是重要的但是我們的問題不是他重不重要而是我們太多 |
transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10232.713 |
transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10246.819 |
transcript.whisperx[329].text |
最近法國才正在討論一個問題就是什麼就是去修改他一個很有名的法律叫做巴黎里昂馬賽特別法就要強化它2010年他的這個地方自治行政團體的改革法是他最重要的核心基礎大家看一下第一個他明確的認知到如果只推 |
transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10261.505 |
transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10276.959 |
transcript.whisperx[330].text |
行政區劃的重劃 主力很大 所以他們推什麼推市政合作組織 類似於我們的什麼我們的行政法院 只是他是跨縣市合作的那樣方法而且像這種鄉鎮市的這種合作組織後來在2016年以後 都變成新市政了 |
transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10283.104 |
transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10306.82 |
transcript.whisperx[331].text |
變成新市政第二個什麼就是他建立一個大都會我們現在如果我們看法國的大都會現在總共有22個他不是地方自治團體但是他具有地方自治的分權功能再來就是什麼就是他強化直接民主尤其是去選這種市政合作組織的審議會的委員 |
transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10313.243 |
transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10325.449 |
transcript.whisperx[332].text |
這邊要提到一個問題就是到底要不要公投這個案子這個問題我提供一個2013年法國很有名的公投叫做亞爾薩斯一體化公投當年呢 |
transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10326.567 |
transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10351.894 |
transcript.whisperx[333].text |
歐蘭德總統在做總統的時候他要推地方改革他希望要用直接民主他選的第一個是什麼就相對比較單純的亞爾薩斯因為這邊可以看到亞爾薩斯是整個是一個大區他有兩個省下俠兩個省夏洛林省跟上洛林省當時就說啊我們一定要用公投的方法由下而上結果呢 |
transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10354.662 |
transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10383.123 |
transcript.whisperx[334].text |
最後結果是不同意 為什麼是兩個省如果平均的這個平均數是50%同意喔可是個別兩個省各有不同意的夏洛林省因為認為他合併以後他的財政會出現一些問題所以他不要上洛林省認為什麼認為反正合併了以後我們是老大所以我們不用太去在乎就因為這個樣子所以公投失敗所以才會有出現 |
transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10386.292 |
transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10393.478 |
transcript.whisperx[335].text |
為什麼他2014年2015年又重新推動兩個法律而這兩個法律就是強制要進行行政區劃的改革這個是法國大區就是我們講的省以上的大區原來有多少原來在法國本土有18個可是現在變13個為什麼就是因為發覺公投根本沒有辦法達成 |
transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10414.619 |
transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10435.794 |
transcript.whisperx[336].text |
而且當你在推行政區劃的時候大家爭執三件事情第一件事情這個大區叫什麼名字所以才會出現這麼好笑的把原來的幾個大區合併起來就叫同一個名字這個名字長到不行後來都用縮寫了第二個爭執是那麼大區的區置方在哪裡區置方在哪裡 |
transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10439.727 |
transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10452.434 |
transcript.whisperx[337].text |
第三個為爭執的問題是那麼以後大區議員席次如何分配所以我們在做行政區劃的時候他不會只是程序是因為他會牽涉到後面這些的問題啊 |
transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10455.08 |
transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10480.592 |
transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我個人認為我們在做行政區劃的時候有原則有實體原則跟程序原則實體原則第一個很重要這在從法國的經驗來講它有一個很重要是什麼叫做共和國不可分割原則什麼意思就是不可以出現國中之國我們現在六都有一個麻煩的地方就是因為它太大它太強了它有的時候像是國中之國 |
transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10482.622 |
transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10505.617 |
transcript.whisperx[339].text |
第二個 區域分配 區域均衡發展原則這個是我們在講這個行政區劃的時候似乎都沒有聽到 好像覺得不重要其實它最重要啊還有相對的法律保留 這我剛剛講了還有程序的條件 正當行政程序在這邊我先設想了我們的正當行政程序是什麼第一個 預告明確的計畫 |
transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10507.11 |
transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10535.006 |
transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我認為主管機關內政部或者是我們立法院如果要推這樣的一個行政區劃的時候請拿出明確的區劃的計畫這樣公民才有機會去審議不要每次都說我們先開公聽會開公聽會就是大家都知道是什麼各說各話的啦再來是什麼組織公正的審議委員會第三個賦予公民參與的平等機會我 |
transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10538.004 |
transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10552.097 |
transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我必須說我對於公投這件事情我並不認為那麼容易啦沒有那麼容易啦沒有那麼容易如果沒有政黨的加入的話政黨藝術加入公投通常是不會過的 |
transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10554.687 |
transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10571.112 |
transcript.whisperx[342].text |
而且我認為行政區劃具有雙重效力 一個實質效力這邊我特別要提的是什麼 就是住民的地方性權利跟義務的界定這件事情是地方事務所明定的行政區劃涉及這件事情啊 它怎麼會只是程序要件呢 |
transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10574.807 |
transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10598.675 |
transcript.whisperx[343].text |
最後我的結論不好意思我有點超過我認為我的行政區劃法如果草案制定有四大基礎第一個它是相對法律保留第二個行政區劃具有實體性跟程序性具有雙重效力第三個我認為地制法可以設專章但是我覺得不太可能只有20條 |
transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10600.135 |
transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10614.783 |
transcript.whisperx[344].text |
如果我們用法國法的例子的話這邊也跟大家稍微科普一下我們的地制法才八幾條法國的通用地方自治法典2700多條所以地方自治是很多的啊 很多的最後一個 我認為 |
transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10624.554 |
transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10643.271 |
transcript.whisperx[345].text |
公民審議就可以 但是要不要直接上升到公投這是立法政策的問題但是我持保留態度謝謝有點超過 謝謝謝謝 介和軍助理教授下一位我們請黃建民教授發言 黃教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10650.506 |
transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10672.122 |
transcript.whisperx[346].text |
好 梁委員還有各位先進與會的各位專家大家好那我今天非常榮幸受邀來討論這個議題那為了節省時間呢那我就直接進入這個委員給的這個四個重要的一個討論的提綱 |
transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10673.303 |
transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10692.68 |
transcript.whisperx[347].text |
第一個就是實體法或是程序法來定制我想這個實體法跟程序法已經大家表達很多的意見實際上在這部分聽起來也是相對比較有共識事實上這個行政區劃法通常都是把這個實體跟程序把它融合在一起所以基本上 |
transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10694.02 |
transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10719.585 |
transcript.whisperx[348].text |
對於這些區劃的一個太陽區劃的原因那它的那個區劃的一些原則那這個實體的規定包括那後續區劃前區劃審議的階段包括到後續的這個處理那我想這些程序的規定也通通在這樣的一個法律裡面所以基本上我想它應該就是實體跟程序的融合那至於要不要加上程序我個人也覺得並沒有那麼樣的必要 |
transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10720.425 |
transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10744.526 |
transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那另外第二個就是這個行政區劃事項得否授權那麼委辦地方知識團體定自治法規定之等不過我們就從這個憲法剛剛很多專家所提到的一個條文那以及這個地方制度法第七條的這個規定的內容來看那個這些鄉鎮市及區包括省 直轄市 縣市是依法律 |
transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10745.587 |
transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10764.649 |
transcript.whisperx[350].text |
規定行之所以從這邊看起來應該是他想要定一個專法的這樣的一個方向至於說這樣縣市改制跟其他的合併它就是依本法那就是規定在七條之後的這些條文至於林理的話就是由直轄市縣市來定制 |
transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10765.129 |
transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10785.334 |
transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所以在這個部分如果是對於他主要的這些重要的劃分原則那當然可能還是必須透過法律來制定那至於說到底能不能授權或委辦那就看他後續執行的這些比較細節的部分當然他必須可以由地方來訂定 |
transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10786.514 |
transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10815.797 |
transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那這個因為行政區劃從這個它的屬性來講我想一個是比較剛性而且穩定性因為這個行政區劃它是整個國家統治權力的一個安排因此我想原則上應該是沒有去授權地方來以自治法規來決定它的這個整個區劃的這些重要的原則或是區劃的太陽那至於說它這個一些特定的這些程序的處理那這個部分應該是可以考量的 |
transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10816.874 |
transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10838.534 |
transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那再來就是第三個問題是行政區劃專法跟地方制度法的關係是什麼那是不是由必須透過專法來訂定那基本上我想我們現在的包括前面第七條的規定那以及說我們從幾個從兩個角度來看就是說他可能可以 |
transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10839.314 |
transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10862.229 |
transcript.whisperx[354].text |
訂立專法讓它變成是地方制度法另外的一個特別的一個法那這樣的它可以凸顯出行政區劃的專門性那另外也符合我們第七條的法律保留的原則所以說我個人覺得應該在訂定這個專法上面我個人還是比較贊成的 |
transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10863.65 |
transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10878.764 |
transcript.whisperx[355].text |
至於第四個問題是納入公民投票制度如何去促進公民參與跟程序的保障我想各有它的優缺點當然我們對於民意的重視民主的這些價值我們都是非常的認同 |
transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10879.725 |
transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10905.652 |
transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那只是說在操作上那可能必須要更加的損失那我們在牛委員的那個查案裡面事實上已經融入了這個在12條的這個部分嗎已經融入了這個有條件式的這個公民賦決的條件那透過公投那當然這個公投呢他有他的優點也有他的缺點當然在整個執行公投上面可能會碰到很多的這個 |
transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10908.033 |
transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10925.403 |
transcript.whisperx[357].text |
需要去突破的地方比如說如果說像我們彰化那彰化我們有一個分原鄉分原鄉實際上跟草屯鎮它是整個在生活互動上是相對比較密切但是分原鄉它其實是在彰化縣裡面 |
transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10926.303 |
transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10953.087 |
transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那如果說這個將來如果要公投的話到底要怎麼投是分員投還是草屯一起投還是因為分員它又涉及到議員的選區立法委員的選區還是說這個同屬立法委員的選區跟議員選一起來投還是整個縣一起來投那這個可能會有很多的討論空間所以基本上我覺得我認同這個對於民意展現的一個重要性但是民意展現是不是一定 |
transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10953.767 |
transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10972.127 |
transcript.whisperx[359].text |
必須要透過公投可以在審慎的討論來因為我們在這個比如說在林委員的這個查案裡面第6條不是第8條的部分已經有訂定這個查案之後他有這個公告他可以辦公定會那其實他也是一種民意的展現 |
transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10973.969 |
transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10988.882 |
transcript.whisperx[360].text |
接著我想提一下我們在整個區劃的過程裡面事實上有幾個問題就是說我們的整個的區劃過去我們之前的經驗 |
transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10990.703 |
transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11011.274 |
transcript.whisperx[361].text |
過去是以省為中心的這種區劃的考量在直轄市六都時代之後它已經轉變為以都為中心的這種區劃的考量那事實上我們今天會變成六都十六縣市那跟我們一開始的這個馬總統執政時期它有一個原先的藍本是這個如果各位不健忘的話就是三都十五縣 |
transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11012.414 |
transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11038.033 |
transcript.whisperx[362].text |
但是在當時的這個三都十五線的一個規劃算是有比較專業性的一個考慮那後來因為整個強調自主的一個合併那造成了原來三都十五線可能沒有完成的一個改革包括新北市的合併包括基隆市新竹市跟嘉義市等等這些就會變成現在的一個現狀所以我的意思就是說一個 |
transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11039.355 |
transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11052.75 |
transcript.whisperx[363].text |
原先比較有系統化的規範如果說以這個由下而上那不去做一個由上而下由下而上的這種協調的話那他可能到最後的一個結果可能會 |
transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11054.651 |
transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11071.779 |
transcript.whisperx[364].text |
脫離原先的規劃會非常的多那這個是在晚近我們這幾年所完成的這個行政區劃的一個經驗我們大概可以看到這樣的一個結果那另外就是說我覺得我們六都時代的行政區劃的特質從這個特質來看我們或許也可以突顯說現在 |
transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11072.939 |
transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11101.352 |
transcript.whisperx[365].text |
行政區劃法那為什麼有它這個提出的重要性因為我們現在的這個六度之後我覺得已經在很多資源分配已經明顯變成是六度群組跟非六度群組那之前的這個考量說直轄市所帶給那個區域發展的這種火車頭效應是不是仍然還存在還是說它只是一個磁吸效應一個大的磁鐵我們從這邊實際的結果來看都可以做很多不同的檢討 |
transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11102.591 |
transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11128.686 |
transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那這個我想在整個從大家如果這個不陌生的話就是還不見外的話我們之前新竹縣市在前幾年也提過這個他要合併改制直轄市的這個議題所以這個直轄市的議題事實上前面幾位專家也提過了就直轄市那變成是一個整個區劃的一個主要的角色那變成大家都在增設直轄市 |
transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11129.406 |
transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11153.312 |
transcript.whisperx[367].text |
因為它基於這個資源爭取的一個考量那到底直轄市它有沒有真正扮演這個火車頭的角色這是我們可以再思考以及說整個直轄市還有一個重要的議題就是它的區界的一個調整一直到現在我們都沒有真正去處理這樣的一個問題那以上就是我個人的幾點看法提供給各位參考 謝謝 |
transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11156.227 |
transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11161.443 |
transcript.whisperx[368].text |
謝謝謝謝黃建民教授最後我們請趙永茂名譽教授發言趙教授有請 |
transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11176.167 |
transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11204.419 |
transcript.whisperx[369].text |
學界的同仁大家好我沒有帶PPT我簡單做一個報告然後我再把我的一些報告其實我有打出來我再傳給我們的助理第一個我先要回應一下就是說我們在做政治的推動一些變革或是法律的變革但其實我們一直忘了 |
transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11205.168 |
transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11227.921 |
transcript.whisperx[370].text |
地區跟人民實體需要上的變革是什麼東西他們需要的是經濟社會文化的發展我們政治跟法律都是工具但是我們要了解的我們現在談的這些東西事實上在歐洲的發展在美國發展已經比我們先進60年了 |
transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11230.12 |
transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11256.928 |
transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們在82年在談這個東西的時候到現在都還沒有完成但是事實上我們也做了那麼地方自治法我們也在2010年我們也做了一些變革也做了一些實體的這些所謂直轄式的這些變革跟整合但是我們事實上我們到現在為止 |
transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11257.472 |
transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11285.573 |
transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我們行政區劃法的還沒有建立但是我們也做了所以我意思是說這個政治性的東西呢的確涉及到剛才有幾位朋友也提到了的確是本來是應該要找點力的那我今天就針對相關的問題我提了幾點來做一個呼應那第一個我要首先要說明就是說 |
transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11287.301 |
transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11314.38 |
transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們第一個就是我們在做一些實體也好或者程序也好那事實上我們基本上都應該是整合在一起的特別是我們必須要特別強調的就是怎麼樣讓地方跟地區實質的這些經濟社會文化的發展能夠達成區域性的發展的目的才是我們要的 |
transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11315.458 |
transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11318.4 |
transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那在國外在推動這些東西的時候是它的彈性它是很有彈性的也就是說我們不是只有談這實體的規範或者程序的規範但是我們的目的在哪裡也就是說基本上我們是希望就是說我們只談了這一些修法上的這一些相關的問題 |
transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11337.267 |
transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11347.403 |
transcript.whisperx[375].text |
但是這修法的問題裡面第一個我要談的一個是太晚了我們極限落後了很多但是我們也做了很多的政治的一些變革 |
transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11348.52 |
transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11372.235 |
transcript.whisperx[376].text |
自治法也建立起來了我們到底是弄一個專章還是做一個專法其實都可以但是基本上我們在專章的建立上面以及我們這個法的上面我們基本上可不可以也要做一些分工我們地方自治法上面有那麼有一部分的這些企劃在裡面也做一些規範特別是 |
transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11373.615 |
transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11392.93 |
transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我們這些縣市之間我們要升格要合併要升等等等也做了但是我們要建立這個法的時候是不是我們必須要一個考慮的是我們在裡面等一下我會做一些建議我們的確也做了一些規範 |
transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11394.349 |
transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11420.616 |
transcript.whisperx[378].text |
但是我要第一個我要提的一個就是說我們在建立這些東西的時候我們是不是要考慮的一個就是我們在建立法例的這個情況之下條文的情況之下有一個非常非常重要的是我們只規範你這個不同區域內的不同政府之間包括中央政府在推動這些區劃的過程裡面的規範但是我們 |
transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11424.028 |
transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11446.979 |
transcript.whisperx[379].text |
也要了解一個在英國或者是日本剛才有幾位也特別談到德國跟法國這個已經是60年前的他們陸續在推動這個Regionalism這些發展的東西也推動區域政府之間這些合作一些法制外內共同協力合作的這些推動 |
transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11448.134 |
transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11473.052 |
transcript.whisperx[380].text |
但是有關推動這些作業上的以及鼓勵上跟約束中央政府跟地方政府的這些東西其實我們談的不多也就是說法是一個不是政治來促進而是要由這些社會以及地方的社會他們自己要有這些發動的能力我們也做了但是有一個非常重要的是 |
transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11474.178 |
transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11499.053 |
transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們在做這個東西的時候我們中央政府跟地方政府跟區域內的地方政府之間的促進他們這樣要重劃跟整合的這個力量跟法制沒有也就是說有些東西不是要促進它來整合就法律的建立而是怎麼促進它整合跟區域發展的這個規範我們沒有在裡面 |
transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11503.429 |
transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11530.764 |
transcript.whisperx[382].text |
來形成或者是來提供所以我的意思重要的就是說我們怎麼樣在政府跟民間的協力發展政府間跟民間的協力發展的這個精神跟在透過法律上的怎麼樣能夠來表示這個精神這個部分是不是也應該在這個上面應該再來加強這第一個第二個部分的就是 |
transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11532.247 |
transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11549.877 |
transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們在推動這些東西的時候第二點我要提的一個部分是說在日本他在推動包括德國或者是法國剛才也提到了他們在推動區域的一些整合的這些法制 |
transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11551.055 |
transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11562.528 |
transcript.whisperx[384].text |
怎麼樣能夠充分的授權以及怎麼樣來促進地方在整合之前有一些共同發展的誘因 |
transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11565.205 |
transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11572.13 |
transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那麼這些發展的誘因跟一些發展的計畫是不是在相關的法例上面也應該要做一些規範那麼這個規範也等於促進地方跟區域內的地方政府在行政區塊合併之前必須要做一些相關的協力合作的這個精神以及這個協力合作的這一些誘因 |
transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11592.606 |
transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11616.776 |
transcript.whisperx[386].text |
怎麼樣促成七一內的地方政府跟中央政府在促進這些發展上面的這一些怎麼樣進一些政策上的責任或者是發展上的一些責任這個部分在國外的相關的這些推動上有一個部分值得我們去重視的是他們在發展這一些不是只有說在 |
transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11617.469 |
transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11640.492 |
transcript.whisperx[387].text |
合併的作業而是促進地方的協力發展堂的規範如何來加以倡議或是在法條上面怎麼樣來規範地方的地方政府跟中央因為比如說你鄉鎮這一級或縣市的話可能需要中央政府或是縣市政府也同時來 |
transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11642.113 |
transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11670.015 |
transcript.whisperx[388].text |
加強這些方面的一些協力或是協助那麼這個聯邦政府對一個州的之間的一些互相的發展怎麼樣能夠也能夠加以協助而促進那麼這個部分的話如果沒有能夠努力的話可能在未來即時剛才也提到了有些可能它有合併了但是它事實上它覺得這個合併是有一些困難的 |
transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11671.124 |
transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11687.532 |
transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那這個情況之下事實上也不一定要合併但是協力合作跟共同發展也是我們在國家在某些或是學術立場我們是非常希望在這方面也能夠同時加以重視的這是第二個部分另外就是 |
transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11691.957 |
transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11714.724 |
transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我在法條上面我們這裡面有提到說如何能夠促進這些地方的公民參與或是公民投票我想是一個共同的發展趨勢但是有一些包括鄉鎮捷這一級或者區政府這些整合性的一些發展在當時在直轄市的這些 |
transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11718.218 |
transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11741.554 |
transcript.whisperx[391].text |
合併發展上面是留下來還沒有解決的一些問題但是這些問題的話怎麼樣就是說有一部分的是要規範上級的自治機關鼓勵下級的自治機關之間的整合的發展這個部分是不是也要加以重視跟補強也就是說在有一些部分的可能縣市級 |
transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11743.308 |
transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11765.786 |
transcript.whisperx[392].text |
這一級就可以對下級的區公所或者下級的鄉鎮公所這些合併的問題他們就可以做個相關的決定那麼再配合地方自治權的一些發展這一塊怎麼樣能夠再加以強調一下這一點也是在其他國家相關法制裡面也都有的 |
transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11766.638 |
transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11791.091 |
transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那另外就是說你透過公民投票跟公民參議是非常重要但是也有一點是說有一部分的剛才提到就是說這個部分可能在鄉鎮這一級的一些區劃可能縣市這一級他就可以做一定的這個決定了也就是說不一定一定中央行政院只能做一個監督性的一些核准 |
transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11791.547 |
transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11807.698 |
transcript.whisperx[394].text |
但是可能也要尊重下級的自治機關對這些記憶自治的精神以及地方自治的權利的尊重可能在這個部分是不是也同時要再考量一下就是說由縣級可能對於鄉鎮級的這些整合 |
transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11808.26 |
transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11836.672 |
transcript.whisperx[395].text |
合併可能他就可以達成一定的這些決定的這些地位那麼另外就是說我們在公民投票的時候我們如果說公民的複決最後我們必須要跟上級的合併包括中央的合併之間的關係也要達成一定的考慮否則你一旦公民投票以後你合併以後再同意他公民投票 |
transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11837.577 |
transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11858.663 |
transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那這個可能也會造成很多的困擾是不是公民投票也在他的在他在議會或是地方決定以後就可以進行那一併由他的上級監督機關或者是中央機關做最後的核定這個部分再做比較好的理清可能在未來的立法上面可能會比較比較完整一點 |
transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11860.151 |
transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11874.257 |
transcript.whisperx[397].text |
以上我想我提供大家一個參考那最主要也是說我們希望就是說將來在立這個法的時候應該要多增加一些倡議這個倡議給地方 上級地方政府 |
transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11875.735 |
transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11885.503 |
transcript.whisperx[398].text |
中央政府有更大的預算支持的壓力協助地方發展的壓力也等於來刺激地方的經濟團體地方的相關社會團體也能夠參與這一些活動有這種倡議的這個協力發展的倡議不一定要達成區劃但是達成地方的發展才是我們 |
transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11899.542 |
transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11924.555 |
transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所希望也是地方社會所寄望的以上謝謝各位好謝謝趙永茂名義教授的發言好那我跟大家報告一下因為現在時間近中我們中午不休息延長開會時間至會議結束我們要先請機關代表對不對因為今天我們學者專家都發言完畢我們現在請今天列席的與會機關我們內政部董事長再次進行簡要的回應說明董事長有請 |
transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11932.878 |
transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11941.104 |
transcript.whisperx[400].text |
主席各位委員以及各位今天與會的許多學者先進還有我們相關的同仁大家好 |
transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11941.892 |
transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11962.89 |
transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那麼在剛才聆聽我們許多位學者專家的許多的寶貴建議以及看法之後事實上本部覺得非常的有深入的了解以及透過這些學者專家的許多的建議包括說對於我們整個的法令程序實質相關的一些建議或者是說 |
transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11963.79 |
transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11977.866 |
transcript.whisperx[402].text |
地方自治的議題以及如何進行相關的議題的修正跟地制法之間的關係還有我們如何納入公民投票制度等等我想大家都有一些深入的看法以及提供給我們許多的建議那麼站在內政部的立場 |
transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11978.427 |
transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12006.303 |
transcript.whisperx[403].text |
事實上當然我們會希望說我們先把程序規範先把它理清楚這個部分我想在剛才的許多學者專家的提案裡面的建言裡面也都有提到就是說程序上跟實質上其實是一個互相的東西但是程序對本部來講可能會更重要是因為我們希望透過程序的規範的明確讓大家促成許多的溝通我想許多的學者專家也提到了這件事情 |
transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12006.923 |
transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12035.334 |
transcript.whisperx[404].text |
因為整個的行政區劃的重劃的過程裡面其實涉及到了許多的不同的議題像剛才我們江教授所提到的事實上行政區劃是一個歷史的過程那麼我也在剛才不同的學者專家裡面看到了一個我過去熟悉的名詞三都十五縣那我要跟各位報告當時我就是負責撰寫三都十五縣的研究生那所以這個 |
transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12037.469 |
transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12064.188 |
transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我看到這個名詞其實是給我很多的感慨啦好那我也深刻的理解事實上就如同包括我們那個我們的老前輩在一開始那季老師所提到的記憶上所提到的我們從1991年92年開始要這樣子一個行政區劃的立法至今我們其實經歷了許多的事情那麼民主社會的變遷也非常的大 |
transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12064.708 |
transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12084.086 |
transcript.whisperx[406].text |
我們在民主制度上也做了很多改變但是我們的歷史結構事實上是必須要被我們考量的也因此站在內政部的立場為什麼我們還是要去談程序這件事情是我們先把程序明確化完成化之後促進地方的溝通跟共識的建立然後有效的去思考在整個歷史脈絡的空間結構之下 |
transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12085.768 |
transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12100.706 |
transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我們怎麼樣去進行一個更好更合理的一個有效的行政區劃這才是一個比較有意義的過程就如同說在歷史上我們都很清楚雲林縣之所以叫雲林其實是一個很有趣的故事 |
transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12101.887 |
transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12118.646 |
transcript.whisperx[408].text |
它其實是從竹山鎮今天的南投竹山鎮往下看下去那一片雲海底下那些茂密的森林所以叫做雲林所以當時的竹山鎮在歷史上在日治時代它其實是雲林縣的一部分 |
transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12119.673 |
transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12131.88 |
transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那我們今天透過不同的行政區劃把它變成是南投的一部分所以雲林縣之所以叫雲林的故事就不存在了只存在在歷史記憶裡面那我自己在讀書的時候我在紐約讀書那麼紐約市為什麼會變成今天的大紐約市在1898年的時候 |
transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12140.104 |
transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12161.301 |
transcript.whisperx[410].text |
紐約市因為當時的政治經濟結構的問題,包括城市,原本小紐約市,也就是今天馬哈頓上面的一些政治的一些議題,以及布魯克林大橋建立之後跟布魯克林區的一些互動,更關鍵的是在世紀轉移的過程裡面,那麼紐約市要跟倫敦市去搶誰是世界最大的城市。 |
transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12162.562 |
transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12177.794 |
transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我想每一個時代都有不同的意涵所以在當時紐約市在1898年就合併了布魯克林區皇后區那成為大紐約市那在這個過程裡面其實每一個時代都有他的不同的意義跟想像 |
transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12178.414 |
transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12205.689 |
transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那這些不同的意義跟想像對我們來講我們就要回歸到在法令上內政部的法律執掌裡面我們還是要不斷的在強調我們當然都理解也深刻知道在整個法令的制定以及行政區劃的過程裡面其實它不是只有一個程序面的問題它更不是只是一個法律的問題它涉及到人民的實質的權益它涉及到人民的感情以及人民對歷史土地還有生活圈的一些概念 |
transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12206.269 |
transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12224.994 |
transcript.whisperx[413].text |
但是我們必須要強調的是在行政體系我們依法行政的狀態之下程序的先例先行以及法制的完成完整性才能夠提供給大家這些對話的空間與討論的空間所以這也是為什麼本部在一開始我們在整個報告裡面會特別強調 |
transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12225.934 |
transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12254.423 |
transcript.whisperx[414].text |
行政區劃的立法我們會特別強調是應有之程序的設計是包括在這個程序設計過程裡面提供給大家對話的空間討論的空間以及必要性的程序的規範法治程序的規範使得許多的事情要處理的時候有一個明確的法律的基準透過這些法律的基準讓大家來進行實質的討論以及對於人民權益的尊重跟保護所以以上是我們內政部簡單的回應 |
transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12256.684 |
transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12275.266 |
transcript.whisperx[415].text |
今天所有學者專家的指教而大家相關的指教也會成為我們後續相關立法的過程裡面我們做參考的一些依據再次感謝主席以及各位學者先進的指教 謝謝好 謝謝董事長請問各位學者專家還有沒有第二輪發言 |
transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12277.237 |
transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12303.815 |
transcript.whisperx[416].text |
應該還好啦 剛剛大家都應該都有表達清楚表達所以我們也希望內政部可以盡速處理這個從民國82年 那年我才3歲到現在30幾歲我們希望可以看到順利的落地謝謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見我們今天所有初列席人員的發言跟提供的書面資料通通會刊登公報以外也會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及所有初列席人員參考 |
transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12304.716 |
transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12310.389 |
transcript.whisperx[417].text |
再次感謝各位的參與我們今天有週五準備便當請記得領取謝謝大家今天的宮廷會到此結束先來散會 |