| IVOD_ID |
167957 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167957 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-26T10:53:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-26T11:03:54+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ea2890e1c4b9ffdec1db4e8dc12ee0255144d5468a2b72bfd543d4706013f98b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:53:36 - 11:03:54 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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現在請洪玉祥委員進行詢問謝謝主席 我們請這個陳主委陳主委好 那早上我聽了很多我覺得你的挑戰是越來越大尤其碰到我們這種科技利益 你可能會更難過一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
51.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那第一個問題這個傳統問題還是要先幫忙問一下因為剛剛委員很多問了很多那我想我就不再贅述基本上來講我倒是覺得不管你是這個塑料農產包材這些的漲價就是我延緩出貨形成這樣子的我買不到這個塑膠袋這裡頭還要擴展到醫材的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
77.819 |
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另外包含剛剛我聽到這些的土方之亂這些我想都是民生或者是業者的痛所以我這邊我就不再贅述那我希望主委的話就是儘快主動出擊就是說有時候你應該也可以學學金管會因為等到他發函去然後廠商再把資料調回來那都太慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
78.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
102.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
苦民所苦你就去喝喝咖啡喝喝可樂也可以就你用什麼方式去讓民眾有這個感受我是覺得施政者我們作為一個政府要的事情那我就要跟主委討論的是說當我們這個數位經濟AI這樣子的一個技術進來的時候其實你的dictation就是你的偵測 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
104.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
126.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
法規這其實這個難度越來越高所以我是覺得你們可能要這個逢高計軌日夜不停的一個工作我現在跟各位談的一個問題是說當然我們在公平會不管是寡占聯合的漲價等等這些議題可是呢以前人的話呢你可能還會透過什麼電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
138.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
透過訊息 透過信件 對不對甚至像以前我們在這個科技業的話 面板 對不對在托拉斯的這個法案 反托拉斯這個法案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
167.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但是現在到了這個數位經濟的一個時代來講的話其實我是透過我的程式碼透過我的模型透過我的數據那這樣子來講的話再把它分成說我是人為去控制還是我這個模型或者是我在學習數字的時候我就達到聯合的拱斷的地步我覺得你這個難度是更高所以我是覺得說在法規上我看完你們的那些的報告你也許認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.843 |
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現有的法規可能可以處理但我覺得應該是不太會一樣所以我想是提醒主委在這件事那太難的原因是什麼其實也就是說我們現在的話控制的核心是我的數據就是我的資料我的演算法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.442 |
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另外的話我價格的制定我也不是用人怎麼樣看法因為我就機器奈米級的速度啪就搞定了然後你的那個共謀的證據也不是這些的信件他可能是到我系統的log對不對我的transaction我的交易甚至我要去比對你的call比對上我API的串聯這整個走下去的時候其實不是人可以處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.982 |
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226.602 |
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所以你的工具你的這個法規這個我覺得你們都要拘謹我現在先問一個簡單問題在你們所有的委員當中具有資工跟資訊背景人工智能到底有多少委員在委員的成員當中是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
245.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我是覺得也許你可以建議啦這個是值得越來越多我相信他會占到未來以後的一半以上不過我們有個叫做經濟跟資訊市場那個裡面就有一些電腦跟資訊方面的人對 因為我覺得他這個難度是更高道高一尺 魔高一丈所以我就提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為我今天要跟主委分享討論就是說我們要站在更前面一點去看這件事情那我這一塊來講的話主要是說整個AI介入進來的時候其實最左邊介入程度是低也就是說我們兩個共謀完之後然後我們去把它達成漲價合一之後我去調參數所以我們就聯合漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
270.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
299.505 |
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那這個當中AI介入程度 因為AI只是我的工具而已我的這個程式是我的工具但是越往234右邊去越來越難比如說我們來看第二種的類型第二種的類型指的就是我們講的HUB的這個SPOC的模式基本上來講的話呢我們這所有的人都去買相同的模型 買相同的這些的演算法來控制我市場的銷售跟這個售價的行為可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
321.903 |
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說實在的我們這些競爭者剛好是買同樣的東西那結果呢我們用的這個同樣的第三方的演算法達成相同的這樣子的聯合的拱斷的價格那這個在美國是有案例的就像這一個RealPage房租的AI的定價案所以像現在來講他可能都使用RealPage的AI |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
342.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後結果他們都是說看起來這同一個區域差不多類型所以下去之後價格是高度的一致而且不合理那這個時候來講當然房客去告房東房東才會說我們怎麼都是用相同的然後再慢慢賠償台灣有沒有這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
344.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.95 |
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跟委員報告一下剛剛委員點出來正確就是那四個模型這個國際組織也都在從那四個模型去分析那的確沒錯前面兩個在傳統的架構底下比較可以處理但是等到你到了自主學習的時候那個難度就非常高可是這個還沒到右邊這個還在第一我了解我了解這個在台灣有沒有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
363.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
384.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就台灣有沒有發生我們最近剛發布的AI的那個政策聲明我們從回收回來的意見多數業者是認為還沒有出現這樣的現況但是我們持續有在注意這個問題那你的持續是用什麼樣的偵測的工具還是用什麼樣的方式我們有網路上偵測那個價格波動是不是有出現一致那這很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
384.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
402.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為你沒有去比如說我們現在都是用這個隨便亂講我都用591出租房可是591出租房的那個模型或定價的模式他假設給我建議的時候那他就有可能會形成這樣的方式那你又不可能去說591出租房你怎麼把他的模型演算法這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
403.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
427.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以跟委員報告一下所以我在之前有談到就是說公平會未來針對AI數位這塊市場必須要趕快強化數位執法能力這個就是我擔心的問題那還有很多比如說像這個就是第三種的類型我用的是CHAP GBP你用的是GIMMA它用的是GLOCK甚至有人用不同的模型但是我們用的是相同的開源的這樣子的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
429.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
441.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
數據對不對比如說我這是所有的房市價格公開的交易資訊我都是所有這個地區的所得稅的什麼這些申報的資料結果這些模型去學這些數據之後推出一致的結論那這種東西未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
444.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
會怎麼防治所以還是回歸到剛剛談的就是說我們可能對 forensic就是那個數位的那個實證的解析解剖那一塊對所以我是說你在工具證據政策對吧它全部是另外一套因為你整個證據的保全跟dictator跟dictation這是完全不同那我再附帶講一點就是說目前以我們的法規來講對於特別是演算法定價是不是構成聯合行為目前我們的法規是有一些不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是因為我們的聯合行為只限於水平的競爭者所以剛剛委員談到軸扶式的卡特就是共同使用一個那他們可能都不在不同的市場當中所以從法律的要件看起來他們可能不會構成聯合行為所以我們目前的修法已經準備要那個條文修正就是不限於水平我現在都是提醒因為我走的比較前瞻一點因為這種東西我覺得未來只會越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
496.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
514.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以身為一個科技律師我覺得這件事情會對你公平而造成很大的問題當然還有自主學習的部分最後我耽誤點著這樣的時間來看這件事情就是說在這裡頭我們的併購我想各位委員前面都吞了很多那我覺得這有兩個層次第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
545.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
Grab的後面還是有一些的滴滴出行物資當然這個可能不歸你管這可能是投審會那邊所以你跟投審會經濟部的投審會可能還要再去合作這是第一道第二道比較擔心的事情剛剛很多委員都講過我透過間接的這樣子的一個行徑來達到這個不管是剝削這個我們的外送員或者是商家的這個漲價對不對就是定價把它偏高收費偏高的行為但是我比較擔心說如果撇開這些都是合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
546.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
566.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那因為Uber又是Grab的股東他們兩個之間的模型甚至模型不同也沒關係數據是去做交換的你也是查不到但是他這樣透過一個獨立的個體但是他中間是透過模型跟數據暗通款曲這個我覺得你的難度是更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
586.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以我相信這個證據的調查是有一定的挑戰度不過在證據調查之前的前提就是說假設這個它真的有辦法影響未來的Grab的營運模式那在它的影響底下那個13.5%的股權會影響到什麼程度有沒有導致價格大幅的上漲這個是我們在分析的時候一開始會先確定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
586.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
614.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
可是我覺得還是人為啦我覺得還是從技術的角度來講因為畢竟他還是占董事啊董事的話比方說你用我的數據我們兩個交換一下對不對大家來分析客戶的行為定價這常會發生這當然有可能只是說對陸同委員所講的那個證據的蒐集對我們來講會是個提示所以我們會持續不斷我再提醒那最後就是說反正我寫在這邊我希望你們將來對這些的政策定價法規那你會採取這項措施跑前面一點然後主動一點這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
615.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
616.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好嗎?好 謝謝 |