| IVOD_ID |
167957 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167957 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-26T10:53:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-26T11:03:54+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/62ea4221ea272c4ea2890e1c4b9ffdec1db4e8dc12ee0255144d5468a2b72bfd543d4706013f98b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:53:36 - 11:03:54 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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陳副主任委員志民 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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陳副主任委員志民 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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現在請洪玉祥委員進行詢問謝謝主席 我們請這個陳主委陳主委好 那早上我聽了很多我覺得你的挑戰是越來越大尤其碰到我們這種科技利益 你可能會更難過一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
51.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那第一個問題這個傳統問題還是要先幫忙問一下因為剛剛委員很多問了很多那我想我就不再贅述基本上來講我倒是覺得不管你是這個塑料農產包材這些的漲價就是我延緩出貨形成這樣子的我買不到這個塑膠袋這裡頭還要擴展到醫材的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
77.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
另外包含剛剛我聽到這些的土方之亂這些我想都是民生或者是業者的痛所以我這邊我就不再贅述那我希望主委的話就是儘快主動出擊就是說有時候你應該也可以學學金管會因為等到他發函去然後廠商再把資料調回來那都太慢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
78.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
102.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
苦民所苦你就去喝喝咖啡喝喝可樂也可以就你用什麼方式去讓民眾有這個感受我是覺得施政者我們作為一個政府要的事情那我就要跟主委討論的是說當我們這個數位經濟AI這樣子的一個技術進來的時候其實你的dictation就是你的偵測 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
104.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
126.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
法規這其實這個難度越來越高所以我是覺得你們可能要這個逢高計軌日夜不停的一個工作我現在跟各位談的一個問題是說當然我們在公平會不管是寡占聯合的漲價等等這些議題可是呢以前人的話呢你可能還會透過什麼電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
138.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
透過訊息 透過信件 對不對甚至像以前我們在這個科技業的話 面板 對不對在托拉斯的這個法案 反托拉斯這個法案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
167.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但是現在到了這個數位經濟的一個時代來講的話其實我是透過我的程式碼透過我的模型透過我的數據那這樣子來講的話再把它分成說我是人為去控制還是我這個模型或者是我在學習數字的時候我就達到聯合的拱斷的地步我覺得你這個難度是更高所以我是覺得說在法規上我看完你們的那些的報告你也許認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
現有的法規可能可以處理但我覺得應該是不太會一樣所以我想是提醒主委在這件事那太難的原因是什麼其實也就是說我們現在的話控制的核心是我的數據就是我的資料我的演算法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
另外的話我價格的制定我也不是用人怎麼樣看法因為我就機器奈米級的速度啪就搞定了然後你的那個共謀的證據也不是這些的信件他可能是到我系統的log對不對我的transaction我的交易甚至我要去比對你的call比對上我API的串聯這整個走下去的時候其實不是人可以處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
226.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以你的工具你的這個法規這個我覺得你們都要拘謹我現在先問一個簡單問題在你們所有的委員當中具有資工跟資訊背景人工智能到底有多少委員在委員的成員當中是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
245.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我是覺得也許你可以建議啦這個是值得越來越多我相信他會占到未來以後的一半以上不過我們有個叫做經濟跟資訊市場那個裡面就有一些電腦跟資訊方面的人對 因為我覺得他這個難度是更高道高一尺 魔高一丈所以我就提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為我今天要跟主委分享討論就是說我們要站在更前面一點去看這件事情那我這一塊來講的話主要是說整個AI介入進來的時候其實最左邊介入程度是低也就是說我們兩個共謀完之後然後我們去把它達成漲價合一之後我去調參數所以我們就聯合漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
270.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
299.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這個當中AI介入程度 因為AI只是我的工具而已我的這個程式是我的工具但是越往234右邊去越來越難比如說我們來看第二種的類型第二種的類型指的就是我們講的HUB的這個SPOC的模式基本上來講的話呢我們這所有的人都去買相同的模型 買相同的這些的演算法來控制我市場的銷售跟這個售價的行為可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
321.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
說實在的我們這些競爭者剛好是買同樣的東西那結果呢我們用的這個同樣的第三方的演算法達成相同的這樣子的聯合的拱斷的價格那這個在美國是有案例的就像這一個RealPage房租的AI的定價案所以像現在來講他可能都使用RealPage的AI |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
342.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後結果他們都是說看起來這同一個區域差不多類型所以下去之後價格是高度的一致而且不合理那這個時候來講當然房客去告房東房東才會說我們怎麼都是用相同的然後再慢慢賠償台灣有沒有這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
344.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
跟委員報告一下剛剛委員點出來正確就是那四個模型這個國際組織也都在從那四個模型去分析那的確沒錯前面兩個在傳統的架構底下比較可以處理但是等到你到了自主學習的時候那個難度就非常高可是這個還沒到右邊這個還在第一我了解我了解這個在台灣有沒有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
363.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
384.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就台灣有沒有發生我們最近剛發布的AI的那個政策聲明我們從回收回來的意見多數業者是認為還沒有出現這樣的現況但是我們持續有在注意這個問題那你的持續是用什麼樣的偵測的工具還是用什麼樣的方式我們有網路上偵測那個價格波動是不是有出現一致那這很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
384.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
402.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為你沒有去比如說我們現在都是用這個隨便亂講我都用591出租房可是591出租房的那個模型或定價的模式他假設給我建議的時候那他就有可能會形成這樣的方式那你又不可能去說591出租房你怎麼把他的模型演算法這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
403.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
427.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以跟委員報告一下所以我在之前有談到就是說公平會未來針對AI數位這塊市場必須要趕快強化數位執法能力這個就是我擔心的問題那還有很多比如說像這個就是第三種的類型我用的是CHAP GBP你用的是GIMMA它用的是GLOCK甚至有人用不同的模型但是我們用的是相同的開源的這樣子的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
429.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
441.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
數據對不對比如說我這是所有的房市價格公開的交易資訊我都是所有這個地區的所得稅的什麼這些申報的資料結果這些模型去學這些數據之後推出一致的結論那這種東西未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
444.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
會怎麼防治所以還是回歸到剛剛談的就是說我們可能對 forensic就是那個數位的那個實證的解析解剖那一塊對所以我是說你在工具證據政策對吧它全部是另外一套因為你整個證據的保全跟dictator跟dictation這是完全不同那我再附帶講一點就是說目前以我們的法規來講對於特別是演算法定價是不是構成聯合行為目前我們的法規是有一些不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是因為我們的聯合行為只限於水平的競爭者所以剛剛委員談到軸扶式的卡特就是共同使用一個那他們可能都不在不同的市場當中所以從法律的要件看起來他們可能不會構成聯合行為所以我們目前的修法已經準備要那個條文修正就是不限於水平我現在都是提醒因為我走的比較前瞻一點因為這種東西我覺得未來只會越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
496.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
514.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以身為一個科技律師我覺得這件事情會對你公平而造成很大的問題當然還有自主學習的部分最後我耽誤點著這樣的時間來看這件事情就是說在這裡頭我們的併購我想各位委員前面都吞了很多那我覺得這有兩個層次第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
545.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
Grab的後面還是有一些的滴滴出行物資當然這個可能不歸你管這可能是投審會那邊所以你跟投審會經濟部的投審會可能還要再去合作這是第一道第二道比較擔心的事情剛剛很多委員都講過我透過間接的這樣子的一個行徑來達到這個不管是剝削這個我們的外送員或者是商家的這個漲價對不對就是定價把它偏高收費偏高的行為但是我比較擔心說如果撇開這些都是合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
546.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
566.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那因為Uber又是Grab的股東他們兩個之間的模型甚至模型不同也沒關係數據是去做交換的你也是查不到但是他這樣透過一個獨立的個體但是他中間是透過模型跟數據暗通款曲這個我覺得你的難度是更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
586.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以我相信這個證據的調查是有一定的挑戰度不過在證據調查之前的前提就是說假設這個它真的有辦法影響未來的Grab的營運模式那在它的影響底下那個13.5%的股權會影響到什麼程度有沒有導致價格大幅的上漲這個是我們在分析的時候一開始會先確定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
586.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
614.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
可是我覺得還是人為啦我覺得還是從技術的角度來講因為畢竟他還是占董事啊董事的話比方說你用我的數據我們兩個交換一下對不對大家來分析客戶的行為定價這常會發生這當然有可能只是說對陸同委員所講的那個證據的蒐集對我們來講會是個提示所以我們會持續不斷我再提醒那最後就是說反正我寫在這邊我希望你們將來對這些的政策定價法規那你會採取這項措施跑前面一點然後主動一點這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
615.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
616.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好嗎?好 謝謝 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-03-26T10:53:39.760000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-03-26T10:53:39.860000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席，我們請陳主委。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-03-26T10:53:39.980000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-03-26T10:53:40.020000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
陳主委。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-03-26T10:53:40.641000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-03-26T10:53:44.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
早上我聽了很多，我覺得你的挑戰是越來越大，尤其碰到我們這種科技立委，你可能會更難過一點。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
0.95 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-03-26T10:54:02.746000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-03-26T10:54:12.388000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
第一個問題，傳統問題還是要先幫忙問一下，因為剛剛委員問了很多，我就不再贅述。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-03-26T10:54:13.308000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-03-26T10:54:53.539000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
基本上來講，我倒是覺得不管是塑料、農產包材等漲價，或是延緩出貨形成買不到塑膠袋，甚至這裡頭還會擴展到醫材等這些問題，另外包含剛剛我聽到土方之亂，這些我想都是民生或者是業者的痛，所以我這邊就不再贅述，我希望主委儘快主動出擊，有時候應該也可以學學金管會，因為要等到發函去，然後廠商再把資料調回來都太慢啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
0.928 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-03-26T10:54:54.579000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-03-26T10:55:06.150000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
苦民所苦，你就去喝喝咖啡、喝喝可樂也可以，看你用什麼方式去讓民眾有感受，我覺得是施政者、作為一個政府要做的事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.94 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-03-26T10:55:07.791000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-03-26T10:55:29.365000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
我今天要跟主委討論的是，當數位經濟AI技術進來的時候，你的detection（偵測）、法規其實難度越來越高，所以我是覺得你們可能要焚膏繼晷，日夜不停的工作。 |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.871 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-03-26T10:55:30.827000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-03-26T10:56:19.169000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
我現在要跟各位談的一個問題是，當然公平會主管的是寡占、聯合漲價等等這些議題，以前的人可能會透過電話、透過訊息、透過信件，甚至像以前我們在科技業時，面板在反托拉斯法案的時候，但是現在到了數位經濟時代，其實是透過程式碼、模型、數據，這樣子的話，再把它分成是人為控制，還是這個模型或者是在學習數字的時候就達到聯合壟斷的地步，我覺得你這個難度是更高。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.961 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-03-26T10:56:19.349000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-03-26T10:56:33.016000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
所以在法規上，我看完你們的報告，你也許認為現有法規可能可以處理，但我覺得應該會不太一樣，所以我想提醒主委在這件事。 |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.981 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-03-26T10:56:34.257000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-03-26T10:56:35.718000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
太難的原因是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-03-26T10:56:35.718000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-03-26T10:56:49.658000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
其實也就是說現在控制的核心是數據，就是資料、演算法，另外，價格的制定也不是用人為的，反正用機器奈米級的速度處理就搞定了。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-03-26T10:56:50.378000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-03-26T10:57:20.619000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
然後共謀證據也不是這些信件，它可能是到系統的log、transaction（交易），甚至要去比對code、API的串聯，整個走下去其實不是人可以處理的，所以你的工具、法規等我覺得要俱進，我現在先問一個簡單問題，在你們所有的委員當中，具有資工及資訊、人工智慧等背景到底有多少委員？ |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.904 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-03-26T10:57:20.619000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-03-26T10:57:22.582000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
在委員的成員當中是沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-03-26T10:57:23.683000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-03-26T10:57:30.328000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
所以我覺得也許你可以建議，這個只會越來越多，我相信它未來會占到一半以上。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
0.848 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-03-26T10:57:30.628000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-03-26T10:57:37.192000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
不過我們有個單位叫做經濟及資訊室，裡面就有一些電腦及資訊方面的人。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.839 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-03-26T10:57:37.513000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-03-26T10:57:39.254000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
因為我覺得它的難度更高。是。 |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-03-26T10:57:39.694000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-03-26T10:57:41.936000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
道高一尺，魔高一丈，所以我就是提醒。 |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-03-26T10:57:43.076000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-03-26T10:58:10.200000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
因為我今天要跟主委分享討論的是，我們要站在更前面一點去看這件事情，這一塊主要是說整個AI介入進來的時候，其實最左邊介入程度是低，也就是我們兩個共謀完，達成漲價合意之後，我去調參數，我們就聯合漲價，這當中AI介入程度低，因為AI程式只是我的工具而已。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-03-26T10:58:12.420000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-03-26T10:58:54.442000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
但是越往右邊二、三、四的類型去，越來越難，比如說我們來看第二種類型，第二種類型指的是我們講的Hub-and-Spoke模式，基本上，所有人都去買相同的模型、相同的演算法來控制其市場的銷售及售價行為，可是說實在的，這些競爭者剛好是買同樣的東西，結果用同樣的第三方演算法達成相同的聯合壟斷價格，這個在美國是有案例的，就像RealPage房租AI訂價案。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.88 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-03-26T10:58:55.162000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:18.359000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
所以現在來講，他可能都使用RealPage AI系統，結果看起來同一區都差不多類型，所以一使用下去之後，價格是高度一致，而且不合理，這個時候當然房客去告房東，房東才說我們怎麼都是用相同的系統，然後再慢慢賠償。 |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.915 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:18.359000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:18.799000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
臺灣有沒有這樣的問題？ |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:20.060000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:33.928000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員點出來的是正確的，就是那四個模型，國際組織也都從那四個模型去分析，的確沒錯，前面兩個在傳統架構底下比較可以處理，但是等到了自主學習模式的時候，難度就非常高。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.939 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:34.608000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:35.969000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
但是這個還沒到右邊喔！ |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:35.969000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:35.969000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
這個還在低…… |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:37.130000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:37.390000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
我了解。 |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:37.570000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:37.790000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
這個在臺灣有沒有？ |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:39.591000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:40.372000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
臺灣有沒有發生這部分？ |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.7 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:40.492000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:51.683000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
我們最近才剛發布AI政策聲明，從回收回來的意見顯示，多數業者認為還沒有出現這樣的現況，但是我們會持續注意這個問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.925 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:52.143000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:54.585000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
你的持續是用什麼樣的偵測工具？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:54.986000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:55.987000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
還是用什麼樣的方式？ |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-03-26T10:59:56.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-03-26T10:59:59.670000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
我們在網路上有偵測價格波動，是不是有出現一致的情況。 |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.792 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-03-26T11:00:00.031000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-03-26T11:00:00.051000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
但這很難。對。 |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-03-26T11:00:00.831000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-03-26T11:00:18.121000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
因為你沒有去……比如說，我隨便亂講一個，我們都用591租屋網，可是591租屋網的那一個模型或定價的模式，假設它給我建議的時候，就有可能會形成這樣的方式，那你又不可能說591租屋網怎麼把它的模型、演算法這些東西…… |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.849 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-03-26T11:00:19.566000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-03-26T11:00:27.532000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
跟委員報告一下，所以我在之前有談到，就是公平會未來針對AI數位這一塊市場，必須要趕快強化數位執法能力。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.979 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-03-26T11:00:28.633000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-03-26T11:00:37.419000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
這個就是我擔心的問題，還有很多，比如說這個就是第三種的類型，我用的是ChatGPT，你用的是Gemini，他用的是Grok，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.712 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-03-26T11:00:38.480000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-03-26T11:00:46.151000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
甚至有人用不同的模型，但是我們用的是相同的開源資料、數據，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-03-26T11:00:46.151000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-03-26T11:01:01.065000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
比如說我都是所有的房市價格、公開的交易資訊，所有都是這些地區的所得稅申報等什麼的資料，結果這些模型去學這些數據之後，推出一致的結論，那這種東西未來要怎麼防制？ |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
0.877 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-03-26T11:01:01.586000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-03-26T11:01:09.332000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
所以還是回歸到我剛剛談的，就是我們可能對forensic、就是數位實證的解析、解剖那一塊，我們要強化…… |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-03-26T11:01:09.332000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-03-26T11:01:20.020000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
對，所以我是說你在工具、證據、政策，它全部都是另外一套，因為你整個證據的保全跟detect跟detection是完全不同。 |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0.873 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-03-26T11:01:20.300000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-03-26T11:01:46.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
我再附帶講一點，目前以我們的法規來講，特別是演算法定價是不是構成聯合行為，我們目前的法規是有一些不足的地方，就是因為我們的聯合行為只限於水平的競爭者，所以剛剛委員有談到軸輻式卡特爾，就是共同使用一個，他們可能都在不同的市場當中，所以從法律的要件看起來，他們可能不會構成聯合行為，所以目前的修法已經準備要做條文修正，就是不限於水平…… |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0.961 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-03-26T11:01:46.313000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-03-26T11:01:58.362000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
我現在都是提醒，因為我走得比較前瞻一點，這種東西我覺得未來只會越來越多，身為一個科技業，我覺得這件事情會對你公平會造成很大的問題，當然還有自主學習的部分。 |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-03-26T11:01:58.362000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-03-26T11:01:59.362000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
謝謝委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-03-26T11:01:58.922000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-03-26T11:02:35.152000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
最後我耽誤一點的時間來看這件事情，在這裡頭，我們的併購，我想各位委員前面都討論了很多，我覺得這有兩個層次：第一個，Grab後面還是有一些滴滴出行，是陸資，當然這個可能不歸你管，這可能是投審司那邊，所以你跟經濟部的投審司可能還要再去合作，這是第一道；第二道是我會比較擔心的事情，剛剛很多委員都提到它透過間接的行徑來達到不管是剝削外送員或者是商家的漲價，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.921 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-03-26T11:02:35.152000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:02.742000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
就是把定價拉高、收費偏高的行為，但是我比較擔心的是，如果撇開這些都是合法，因為Uber又是Grab的股東，他們兩個之間的模型，甚至模型不同也沒關係，如果數據去做交換，你也是查不到，因為它這樣透過一個獨立的個體，但是它中間透過模型跟數據暗通款曲，這個我覺得你的難度會更高。 |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.911 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:03.897000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:22.060000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
我相信這個證據的調查是有一定的挑戰度，不過在證據調查之前的前提是假設它真的有辦法影響未來Grab的營運模式，在它的影響之下，那個13.5%的股權會影響到什麼程度，有沒有導致價格大幅的上漲，這個是我們在分析的時候一開始會先確定的…… |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.99 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:22.460000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:31.688000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
可是我覺得那還是人為，我覺得還是要從技術的角度來講，因為畢竟它還是占董事，董事的話，比如說你用我的數據，我們兩個交換一下，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:31.688000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:35.331000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
大家分析客戶的行為及定價，這常常會發生。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:35.771000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:40.875000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
這當然有可能，只是如同委員所講的，那個證據的蒐集對我們來講會是個挑戰，所以我們會持續…… |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.923 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:41.035000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:41.496000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
我只是提醒。 |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:42.036000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:51.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
最後，反正我寫在這邊，將來對於這些政策、定價、法規會採取什麼樣的措施，我希望你們跑前面一點、主動一點這樣子，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.76 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
陳代理主任委員志民 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:52.085000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:52.105000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
好，謝謝委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:52.605000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:55.462143+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
謝謝洪召委的AI壟斷。 |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-03-26T11:03:55.762143+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-03-26T11:03:59.476429+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
我們現在請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。 |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0 |