| IVOD_ID |
16793 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16793 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
28 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-30T08:31:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-30T11:29:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:57:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea271ac346a99ec21c4f0709a7fb2e74837f81bba30f51cec2225e517d941577d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:19 - 11:29:00 |
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各位早安請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員10人以足法定人數好謝謝現在開會我們進行報告事項首先請宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2139.062 |
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2164.745 |
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立法院第十一届第三会及内政委员会第二十七次全体委员会议事录时间一百十四年六月二十五日星期三上午九十二分至十二时四十八分地点红龙二零二会议室出席委员苏巧慧委员等十三人列席委员张其凯委员等十三人请假委员丁学忠委员一人列席官员内政部部长刘师芳其相关人员行政院打击诈欺指挥中心执行秘书黄国施司法院刑事厅法官五元要民事厅法官毛彦成 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2165.566 |
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2179.038 |
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法務部政務次長徐其祥暨相關人員金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局組長黃超邦暨相關人員國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處專門委員蔡信儀數位發展部數位產業署組長個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2182.561 |
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2210.04 |
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主席张召集委员洪璐报告事项宣读上次会议事务决定确定讨论事项审查诈欺犯罪违害防治条例修正草案纪六案讨论事项合并询答委员王定宇王逸川说明提案要旨内政部部长刘师芳法务部政务次长徐熙祥报告委员苏巧慧等15人质询分别由内政部部长刘师芳及相关人员司法院刑事厅法官吴元耀法务部政务次长徐熙祥数位发展部数位产业署组长林青 |
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2210.62 |
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2239.222 |
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林青金融監督管理委員會銀行局副組長王立慧答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員高金素梅丁學忠林楚英楊瓊英徐富鬼所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會決議一請行政機關再行研議於二周內提出修正條文必利後續審查施以二討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
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2241.927 |
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2267.869 |
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好謝謝請問各位委員上次會議意思錄有錯或遺漏之處沒有好報告委員會意思錄確定現在我們繼續進行討論事項請選讀1審查行政院罕情審議平埔原住民族群身份罰草案案2審查委員林一景等22人擬拒平埔原住民族群身份罰草案案3審查委員賴慧媛等21人擬拒平埔原住民族群身份罰草案案案宣讀完畢 |
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2268.888 |
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2295.078 |
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好本日議程所列第四案因為未簽署不附同意書我們不予審查其他的討論事項我們今天進行合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先是王美惠委員黃婕委員還有林益菁委員關於這部分我們援助民主委員會曾志勇主任委員 |
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2299.218 |
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2305.304 |
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好 現在進行提案說明的部分 請提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請林議員進行提案說明 林委員有請 |
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2311.844 |
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2338.029 |
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謝謝主席各位同仁以及全國收看立法院直播的族親們大家好台灣的南島語系民主是先於中華民國憲法存在著既然身份與血緣與生俱來原住民族的身份的有無就不該單單只是靠國家權利的恩賜過去在原住民身份法制定前國民政府曾公告台灣省 |
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2338.689 |
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2364.335 |
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三包身份認定標準以行政命令的方式決定了原住民族的身份認定後來雖然在1950到1960年代曾經公告四次補辦登記但是錯過這幾次的身份登記的時間點就算你身上有著台灣南島語系的血緣還是無法變成我國的法定原住民族 |
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2364.995 |
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2385.421 |
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由此可見原住民族在法律上的概念是限期登記出來的可是這樣完全違法兩公約施行法所保障的民族自主權也影響著族親們的身份認同權本席選區的希拉雅族親們為了爭取法定的原住民族長年倡議並打行政訴訟 |
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2390.243 |
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2409.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
10多年下來終於判得憲法法庭111年憲判字第17號判決的一錘定音憲法本文第22條所保障的原住民身份認同權應照顧到所有台灣南島語系的原住民族憲法法庭的判決點 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2411.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2433.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
憲法法庭判決點出了過去這項歷史的錯誤並指示立法者應限期修法或立法現在用法律去保障民族平埔族親的身份認同權這就是我們立法者的責任不過立法應該如何的周延保障也是需要迫切思考的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2434.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2456.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
就無論如何我們不能再立出一部違憲的法律不能侵奪原住民身份認同權這項的憲法權利因此在本席的評普原住民族身份法草案的版本中將由原住民族委員會主管並由原住民族委員會進行相關的身份認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2457.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2474.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然而具體的身份認定的程序要如何判定在本席的版本中出於嚴謹的考量也會要求要檢據相關的文件例如日治時代的戶籍藤本資料或者相關公文書 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2475.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2493.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
又或者台灣學術機構的研究資料最後一部分本席先前則有要求國科會會同所有的學研單位進行全方面的學術資料盤點供主人們來檢索之用不過也有足先向本席反映公文書資料的檢附 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2495.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2507.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不應只侷限在中華民國政府的公文書而是可以參考新港文書等官方歷史文件關於法律條文要如何設計本席將繼續跟原民會來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2509.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2536.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
無論如何平埔原住民族群還是這片土地上最早的主人只是制度的不完整以及歷史上的差錯讓族親們的法定身份無法獲得承認族親們的身份誰決定這是一個值得思索的問題希望朝野能理性審議法案盡速讓族親們獲得應有的身份認定以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2539.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2562.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝丁一斤委員的提案說明那一位原委員提案說明已書面提出好現在我們請原住民委員會曾主委委員志勇進行本次法案的報告時間主委你再幾分鐘我們今天登記的人沒有那麼長五分鐘好不好好時間五分鐘好曾主委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2565.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2583.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席各位委員大家好 大家早行政院正式提出這個版本主要是根據司法院憲法法庭111年度第17號判決這個判決明確的要求只要一個族群還保有自己的語言習俗 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2585.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2608.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
傳統等文化特徵而且有歷史記錄可以證明既存於台灣的南島語系民主政府就應該依照他們的意願來認定原住民族的身份而且要在三年內也就是在114年10月27日以前透過修法或訂定新法來訂出明確的認定標準申請條件和程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2609.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2630.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
同時判決也強調雖然平埔族群保障的內容與範圍不在判決審理範圍內但也仍然提供政府後續的立法方向與指引判決指出立法者應該以憲法保障的意旨充分考量各原住民族及其成員的歷史發展脈絡與現況並且兼顧國家資源的分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2634.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2642.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
另以法律定制這部草案的重點大致可分成兩大部分第一是回應憲法的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2644.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2665.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
草案規定評估原住民族的認定標準包括語言習俗文化特徵跟歷史紀錄以及申請審查到公告的流程也考量到身份的變更未成年子女還有因為婚姻或收養的關係產生的身分轉換等情況都有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2666.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2686.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那麼第二是實踐憲法的指引依據憲法判決的精神要求政府就政治參與、交通水利、醫療、土地、社會福利等等面向要考量平埔原住民族群的歷史與現況並且斟酌國家資源的分配另於法律定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2687.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2709.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
另外針對大宴委委員所提出的版本都涉及到原住民族權利體系的核心基礎我們本會競表尊重但為了要遵循憲法判決的意旨並且尊重原住民族各界意見的最大共識我們也建請採納行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2710.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2736.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這部法案不只是回應憲法法庭的要求更是讓平埔原住民族群在法律上正式被認可讓這些歷經多年爭取的族人終於能名正言順的獲得他們應有的地位與尊重最後衷心期盼各位委員支持行政院所提版本讓平埔族群在歷經長年的正名運動之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2738.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2744.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
能依法取得其原住民的身份獲得應有的地位與尊重謝謝好謝謝曾主任委員接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2751.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2776.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢問委員質詢前原例做以下幾點宣告第一本會及原住民委員時間發言時間六分鐘必要時延長一分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘我們在上午十點三十分截止發言登記我們今天因為法案處理我們就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2778.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2782.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好謝謝現在進行詢答首先請登記第一位林怡瑾委員發言介主席有請園民會曾主委曾主委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2800.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2827.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主委早 首先先謝謝主委履行承諾在6月6號特別有來台南與我們台南的立委跟在地的希拉雅族親們來舉行座談會那本席要強調歷史一再的錯誤不代表就能忽略部分群體的權利那行政的怠惰跟立法進度的延宕也不能以此當作藉口讓族親們在身份的認定上孤立無援 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2830.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2854.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那本席有看到就國民黨的立委他的法律提案說明中有兩大謬誤第一他說自清朝日治時代以來就有生番熟番的區別所以世代與民客這個生活領域相同的平埔原住民族還有這個自認與生活這個跟生番 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2855.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2865.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
就是說跟他們身分地內的山地原住民跟平地原住民有別喔這是一大錯誤齁那這個大的錯誤齁在台灣的那個南島語系 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2871.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2893.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
民族他並不因為這個殖民者的殖民程度有別這個就在於失去被認定同為這個台灣南島語系的一員嘛 這個主委你認定嗎 是是好那第二個這個委員他有指出說因為國大的修憲喔 他有明確排除這個平埔原住民族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2894.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2911.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
以及後續立法院沒有積極處理這個平埔族群原住民的修法所以現行的台灣的這個法定原住民族與尚未被認定為法定原住民族的其他台灣南島語系民族這個兩者他覺得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2912.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2937.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
分別的獨立的族群而且互不隸屬我覺得這又是另外一大錯誤那錯在什麼地方 錯在立法的消極不應該來決定所謂的族群別所以本席反覆強調血緣是與生俱來的那歷史上的立法錯誤即便是這樣歷史上的立法錯誤可是它 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2938.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2952.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
一度他排除了這個平埔族成為所謂的法定原住民的身份可是憲法法庭給立法者補考的機會所以我們這個時候就不該再以過去立法的消極來再次錯誤推斷這個族群分別獨立且不隸屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2958.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2974.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那好 那我現在要呼籲朝野的立委就是說我們必須要真的要理性來審理法案然後盡速讓族親們得到應有的這個身份認定那而不是說借法案的審查來分化挑撥這個族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2978.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2991.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
針對以上本席所說的有委員認定這個平埔族群原住民不是原住民而且還要吝嗇所謂的平埔族群委員會這個部分不曉得主委你怎麼看謝謝委員我想是這樣在憲法的判決也很明確的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3001.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3018.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
只要是他有一定的這個不管是語言習俗傳統等等歷史記錄他有一定的這個可以證明他是台灣我們南島語系的這個族群的話就必須是我們的就是也是台灣的原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3019.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3036.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
只不過是因為他歷史上的關係他比較沒有辦法那麼快登記當然我們還是要站在政府的立場尤其是延民會當然要承認而且要給予他應有的這個尊嚴跟地位我們本來就是要做的只是做得比較慢一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3038.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3053.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以未來平埔族應該也隸屬於所謂原住民委員會來管對不對是 是我們服務的對象好 OK那接著本席想要借一個假設的例子來跟您探討限期登記這個規範的瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3055.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3058.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
有一位新來的青年那他在現有的草案你們院版的這個版本通過之後沒有在期限內完成逐別身份登記後來他結婚生子那小孩長大之後有登記原住民這個身份別的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3072.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3093.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
然後想要再藉著他在日治時代這個祖先的戶籍登記去申請祖別的登記請問這樣他錯過現期登記的這個希拉雅的孩童有著族群的自我認同意識這樣子他還能繼續進行登記嗎那如果不能登記是不是現期登記這個就是一個很大的瑕疵 主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3097.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3124.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
跟委員報告這個五年是我們現在的草案的五年那當然我們在討論的過程這個五年是不是要延長到十年或者是十五年二十年我們還可以再討論我們是因為現在還沒定案但是一個法律總要先定一個要有一個時間性怕他的前例會延宕我們就定五年但是如果委員們覺得五年太短那當然我們都可以討論可是為什麼一定要有一個期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3125.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3140.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為我們希望在這個短暫的這個說五年也不短至少說讓我們可以明確的掌握到到底登記的我們的這個頻譜族群有多少人我們好做內部的資源的調整比如說這個資源一定會調整因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3141.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3163.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如果平埔族群多當然這個用的資源政府一定要盤點這個資源所以是因為這個原因才會希望他在五年內我們很快能夠知道多少但是我們知道如果五年委員覺得說還有很多的人他還是沒有辦法那麼快的就能夠知道自己是平埔族然後趕快來登記我們可以討論這個期限可以延長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3167.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3196.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好 其次的問題我們心火暗的時候再來講好 我最後要講一句話就是說有一本書叫沒有名字的人這本書有一句話說族群的邊界與框架是權利者認定的那主委我們雖然握有立法跟這個行政的權利可是我們絕不能重蹈這過去立法者所犯下的錯誤所以本席要最後強調已經形塑出文化的族群就應該被認可所以主委讓我們一起陪沒有名字的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3197.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3208.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
來走好身份認定這條路好嗎好好謝謝主委主委加油謝謝主席好謝謝林益菁委員下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢主席我們請主委曾主委有請委員好嗨 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3225.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3229.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
主委 今天我們要審北部族的官署名的新聞的草案在這裏面 你們有什麼想法不對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3242.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3259.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因為差一天喔,又天差一天了啦本時候要跟你討論的就是在第三條裡面你有說到,我們的憲法修法的第四條第二項第一款但是在我們的裡面,我們市民的裡面並沒有第二項第一款只有第一項第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3272.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3278.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
主委,這是小小過錯,對啦,這個有誤之這不能小小過錯這兩三不是像我們年輕人大人偷100,偷50也好,這是不一樣的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3295.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3309.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
條款裡面所定的和你所定的這是完全不一樣的所以主委這要最終去注意不能說小小過錯好不好因為這時候我來的時候不是開玩笑的因為我看到的時候我怕你問錯了再請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3323.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3337.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所有的專家都說這可能是你們的黨員寫得不對所以主委 老闆要比較好看好來 主委今天所要討論的就是18、20年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3341.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3352.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
法庭憲法裡面就判決說 全部主委就要在今年三年來就是在今年84年的十月來 就要來完成啦但是說實在的 主委 在我的辦公室也好 在家裡的服務處也好都有接到公民團體的建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3367.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3381.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
但是有我們的委員裡面的建議因為公民團體的建議是希望我們不要繼續修另外一個法是應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3383.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3403.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
全部主是關主民裡面的一份主是不是要在裡面的新聞來收到因為在公民團體的意見當中請問主委,你有聽到公民團體的意見嗎?來,你回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3405.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3416.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我跟魏旺報告,這個去年的時候,我們就已經辦高中的座談會,今年這個沒有啦,我知道你辦,我是主委,不好意思,我要打岔我就是說,辦,辦,他們的意見,我知道你有辦喔不過我剛才就來,你說你們沒有辦,我知道你有辦跟辦他們的意見,你有參與,有做參考沒有啦來,主委請你回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3434.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3436.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
在今天這個座談會 也有公民團體提起這個意見但是為什麼不直接就修原住民法 也有很多人在說 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3450.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3464.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
但是就是說這個看我們這個判決的這個立法的主文我們是希望就是說必須要能夠用一個專法更能夠來符合我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3465.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3486.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
平埔原住民族群的一些相關的權益這也是有人在說差不多意見是差不多差不多啦不是說都說一定要修身分法也有說要修專法這個修專法的這個共識比這個修身分法比直接修身分法比較多一點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3488.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3491.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
多一點點 比較多一點啦這樣喔 跟我聽是沒那麼多的主委 你是覺得麻煩 還是怕說有很多問題的參選所以你來做這個手法 這個問題不 因為我都覺得 不管什麼意見我們都要聽 因為我覺得 我們的委員他的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3514.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3524.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
也好,公民團體的意見也好,因為坦白說,大家都想一個關注民的一分數的時間,是怎樣你們要再分,要再分的,這讓他們覺得,不然我們再加關注民,又不公平,不然是怎樣要再分 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3539.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3542.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
說得那麼難聽,讓人說說話,就是今天大家的平埔族裡面所有的納入,原住民裡面的16宗,我們給1宗就好了,變17宗就好了,我們不會這麼麻煩,但是最重要的,我要說的就是,我們裡面的住院 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3565.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3576.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
是要公家用,還是要這樣用,這是很大的問題啦,主委,你應該聽我說的意思,是要這樣自己用,還是要公家自願公家用,這個是最重要的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3587.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3601.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們要越做越大,不是跟這些人的使用在這裡面,我要來請教主委,主委在213條裡面,全部講到教育及文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3607.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3618.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那這樣下去的時候 他們的祕密會更加有文化是不是跟我們現在的原住民 更加有差異啊你第二十三條來賓 怎麼會更加有文化有關這個語言跟文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3632.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3651.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
直接將來平埔族群是直接就可以適用現在的法律現在可以用啊現在我們就有在協助他們的尤其是語言啦他們的語言流速太快了所以我們現在就有在協助平埔原住民的族人在做這個語言文化這一定要做的現在也在做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3653.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3659.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
主委,在這裡面,我提供的意見,您要去瞭解,我們要修一個法,是非常簡單在這個過程當中,您也有說到,如果我們修衛生是不是讓他們去 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3669.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3676.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
認定他們的身份,在五黨五黨裡面,心事不足的時候,我們要改十黨,剛才你還說,也可以改十五黨,但是在這個規定要改的時候,沒有做,這裡的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3690.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3696.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
在那裡等啊等,慢啊慢啊,好,真好等啊,本身要跟你說的是,是要如何如何,他們長久以來,他們就要證出他們的身份,要如何去選擇他們,何時去定期,因為所了解, |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3710.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3713.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
在統計台的總統差不多有九十萬人的民眾我們現有的現在有六十幾萬人的關注人所以在這個規定當中我們要如何讓這些九十幾萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3730.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3734.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
在這個時間,可以出來登記啦你不能說,他說可以行,可以行他說行不完,也做不完,跟一個會議,也沒有資質要修法,我們就是有這個關係要修,要讓他們家裡可以認定他們的身份啦所以主委本身跟你說這個意見的時候,麻煩我們討論的時候,你們要去納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3759.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3766.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 謝謝謝謝 王美惠委員下一位我們請黃婕委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請曾主委曾主委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3781.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3811.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
委員好好 主委好今天這個評普原住民族的身份法其實就是依照憲判嘛要在今年十月之前必須要完成這個立法那我也知道說其實原民會都有下去開座談會了那所以我在這邊直接請教第一個這個在座談會上也很多人不只是目前的既有的原住民族還有接下來的評普族他們都有提出的意見就是到底要不要放入原基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3812.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3820.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個問題那可不可以請主委在這邊明確的告訴所有的原住民的朋友為什麼你們選擇不放入原基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3821.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3844.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我跟委員報告原住民主基本法他的成立是已經有3D原住民平地原住民後來才因為要規範3D原住民跟平地原住民才有原住民主基本法不是原住民基本法先先以這兩個民主的存在那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3845.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3869.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個憲法的判決也非常明確就是說這個所有的這個它的潛力保障的內容我們應該要依這個各組的客觀需求還要遵守國家的資源的分配我們來另一法律來定制所謂的這個基本法不是就是說不當然適用我舉一個例比如說這個有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3871.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3889.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
未來有關原住民的這個考試好 平埔原住民的加分考試加分優待是不是要跟山地平原來的加分的優待是不是一樣用這個扣打2%還是平埔原住民因為他比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3889.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3903.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
已經很久沒有享受這樣的一個而且很多人需要是不是要另外要外加不要再去佔這個不然就名額就變少了我只是舉這個例所以不當然適用並不是完全不適用這個原住民主基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3904.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3931.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好其實主委講得很清楚啦國家資源如何分配的問題那其實目前也既有的原住民族就是這16族大家的意見也是認為不希望放進去是因為擔心排擠到目前原住民族的資源那所以我在這邊就很直接的請教因為其實你們在既然說現在要訂定專法那專法裡面如何保障平埔原住民族他們也可以享有 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3932.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3945.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
資源這件事情是你們必須要往前告訴大家的而不是說因為擔心你們排擠到目前原住民所以我們另訂專法那請問另訂專法就不需要提供這些資源了嗎我舉個例子對現在就是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3947.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3974.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
社會福利以及你剛剛說的政治參與還有這些考試的問題這些名額的問題到底要接下來如何提供評普援助民族也可以有這一些資源是最重要的那所以我認為你們應該要有一些大方向的報告包括說其實這個政治參與也是很多人擔心的就是說那接下來如果評普援助民族他們要有自己的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3975.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3993.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
要有自己的一些民意的展現那接下來他們會有額外的這些名額的釋放嗎增加嗎或者另外投票嗎這個你們有考慮過嗎跟委員報告這個是大部分的人會有這樣的一個誤會就是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3994.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4020.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
即刻起的平埔原住民的身份我是不是馬上可以選立委或者是立委是不是可以開又就是說平埔原住民又產生立法委員我跟委員報告這個參選特別是立委這個是憲法規定的那憲法的這個精神目前就是沒有這樣的一個你必須要修憲要考量到修憲的現實所以這不可能第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4022.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4025.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
還有一些交通水利、醫療、土地、社會福利等等我們當然要斟酌所有國家的資源我們來整體的來做規劃跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4034.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4055.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
原住民族群 平埔族群多了以後當然用的資源就會多當然就要用國家的資源比較多這個我想我們人民會也會認真的面對這個是必須我們也會跟行政院來做報告當然資源就要放得多啊這是一定的所以也請平埔族的族人放心我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4056.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4078.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個資源一定登記的人越多當然資源一定會晃得越多所以這就是我希望接下來你們要審慎規劃的包括我剛剛說的這個政治參與的部分因為涉及到修憲因為其實憲法裡面已經把立委的總席次還有原住民的席次其實都已經寫得很明確了那如果接下來平埔族真的你們的專法下去了總共有90萬人來登記之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4080.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4101.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那這90萬人的民意是需要另外去進行修憲嗎你們的想法是什麼這個其實都要先事先想起來放那包括說還有剛剛提到的考試的部分是不是需要額外的加名額還有社福醫療的部分包括說請領各種老年給付的這個年齡是不是需要因應平埔原住民族給他們另外的這樣的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4103.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4111.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
還有勞工的權益包括說這個碎石祭儀前陣子也才討論過接下來平埔原住民族是有享有這樣的碎石祭儀的假期嗎這些其實你們都要全方位的去討論所以我不知道說主委在這邊有沒有心裡有這樣的構想關於各個方面社會福利也好這個各個制度的設計民意代表政治參與這些其實都要全方位的去考量才對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4129.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4139.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
有 我們的條文也有規定我們即刻就進行社會調查剛剛委員提示的這些我們都會都已經在陸續在做了但是我們希望做得快一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4141.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4170.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
沒錯這個就是這個時候最重要的因為我們不希望說原本的山地原住民跟接下來的平埔族人彼此之間會有任何的心結或衝突這個都不是我們立這部法當初的意旨也不是我們的精神是希望說可以保障更多的原住民族享有他們應盡的權益他們的資源所以呢我在這邊希望說既然你們都已經決定要用專法來審查了那這方面就要更務實的來考量好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4170.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4197.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是好這個真的要拜託主委那再來另外一個就是其實在我們的你們的版本裡面有明確的提到說要取得身份必須要有文化特徵的獨特性那我認為這件事情這個條件必須要更明確的告訴族人說我們要申請的取得身份其實你們列了好幾個條件嘛那有些人的質疑是說覺得這個條件比原本的原基法還要嚴苛喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4198.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4220.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以這件事情我希望主委也要審慎的思考是不是變成說我們平埔原住民族在爭取身份認同的時候他還要去舉證說對我們的文化特徵獨特性包括哪些哪些跟原本十六族不同跟漢人也不同所以我們必須要用非常困難的條件才能取得這個身份認同我相信這也不是我們的精神啦是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4221.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4240.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們這個是按照憲法的精神我們來這樣來這樣做個解釋但是實務上法條上我們都有規定是希望要用比較寬鬆的角度來認定我們的平埔原住民的族人好對這個就是要希望接下來審查的時候你們要寫明確的好嗎謝謝好謝謝主委好謝謝黃婕委員下一位我們請李博義委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4254.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4276.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
請曾主委曾主委有請委員好上個會期通過這個原住民組織法裡面很遺憾就是包含這個也把山原跟平原的主委要輪流擔任入法那也很遺憾我們所有的各族 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4276.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4304.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
各族的委員也因為待遇的問題全部辭光了這兩個遺憾這兩個遺憾就讓我們其實也理解到當時因為歷史的因素戶籍登記的因素那有山園有平原但是其實我們應該要更著重更重視的應該是各族各族群各族各民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4305.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4334.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
才是我們要加強這是這二十多年來的政府一直在努力的方向加強各族所以也是歷史的因素啦平埔族當時並沒有被政府所納入應該也是台灣原住民族啦那所以以廣義的台灣原住民族來講那其實你用現在的分法16族 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4335.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4362.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
其實也有學者認為這是狹義那應該把平埔族人也放入原住民族那是我們今天要討論的方向那有了這個方向之後我們才可以接下來繼續的來討論那過去因為歷史因素有三地原住民、平地原住民那也受原住民基本法的一些對於他們的文化、生活等等的一些保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4362.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4384.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那我們也同意那社會也越來越進步但是我們現在來討論的是平普族的相關的文化權益的保障而且這個也已經一開始就講得很清楚了主委你認為他不應該在原住民基本法的框架裡而用另外一個保護或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4386.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4404.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
對於他的文化這些基本的這些保護有一個另外一套的一個立法這基本的精神我們先講清楚但是我們接下來就要務實啦三立原住民、平立原住民到目前為止總人數大約61萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4408.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4426.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
主委你在上一個會期來這裡回應的時候回答的時候你說平地原住民平埔族平埔族人大概有多少98萬人98萬人你認為如果我們現在開始來登記以你的版本是3年嗎就是對5年那我跟委員報告說 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4432.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4449.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
登記齁 我們預估啦 研判啦不會說一下子登記就一下子就到98萬人啦這是一定 因為就好像我們過去山地跟平地原住民的登記也不是一下子就到今天的這個人數也許 也許到今年年底可能不到10萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4451.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4474.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我預估啊那五年呢五年大概就是說就看看後面的狀況就是說會不會全部98萬人來登記當然我們是希望我個人認為啊是我樂觀其成的原住民越多越好就是說大家就是才有才有更多的這個我們的我們會有更多的互動啊這個文化也會更精彩他是這樣子所以應該我認為要到98萬人可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4478.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4503.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
五年內啦 五年內才有辦法到98萬沒有辦法 絕對沒有辦法一下子就到位啦其實政府有沒有這個資源齁那可以如這個最理想化還原原住民族本身的身份那也保有他們的文化權益等等的政府有沒有這個資源到比如說五年 那你再加五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4505.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4509.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
5年的登記,可能後來再加5年在10年後,政府有沒有這個資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4511.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4538.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
另外對於平埔族我們現在看到的就好幾族了嘛有在這個文化部裡面文化資產這邊有定期活動的齁其實包含這個希拉雅族齁那還有包含台南大內大內投射太祖業績東山吉貝耍業績等等那還有高雄大武龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4539.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4551.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
阿里等等有非常有好幾個族這可能來主委請教一下大概會有多少平埔族的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4554.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4580.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
各位報告我們目前平埔原住民不是只有一個族一碼差不多九族十族差不多九個族因為現在在文化部裡面大概有十件就十族了最少九族所以我相信其實在未來台灣政府持續這樣子進步下去的話是有足夠資源那主委所以你的意見是 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4582.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4608.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們這些平埔族,未來他跟我們目前原住民族16族裡面的資源是不會重疊的?不會,我們希望就是說我們希望是另外加三眼、平眼這本來就是一個形式多年了嘛,那平埔原住民族我們另外那我們即將遇到的問題也就是說你五年內登記的他所遇到的包含原住民族的教育法,他適不適用? |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4609.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4612.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
原住民族的教育法它是不是用我跟委員報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4614.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4640.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
像我們自己主管的法令 就是說原住民研法這個其實需要社會廣泛的討論也把當初我們對於原住民族的這些要立原住民族教育法的這些過程然後包含現今社會的狀況要一併的跟社會以及所有的各民族來做一個相關的討論那另外最重要的也就是最難處理的地方制度法要不要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4642.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4659.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
如果這樣子的話台南也有高雄也有那現在台南跟高雄市直轄市議員是山地山園跟平原是各二席二加二一共是四席但是又有總額的限制接下來的這個平埔族呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4660.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4680.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個要怎麼處理一定會碰到的問題拉長時間可能把這個時間拉到五年把很多包含教育地方制度這些都要一併的考量而且這個不是原民會一個單位可以處理的必須要廣大很多甚至要動到修憲你知道嗎所以這個我們期待那也 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4686.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4694.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
必須要審慎的來完成這些立法的討論謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝李博記委員下一位我們請張宏祿召委諮詢我請主委曾主委有請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4716.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4740.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
主委我記得上次我有質詢就是說對於平埔族的登記很多很複雜的工作那我上次質詢到現在也說長不長但我不知道你們我質詢完之後你們這個後續的準備工作你們進行的如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4741.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4757.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好各位報告齁這個法案我們提出來之後送到大宴來之後我們去年當然就已經開了九場的座談會那這個月北中南都各各我們就各開了一場那是由我親自來主持齁我親自來面對我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4759.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4782.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
平埔族人那所以我們也整理了他們大概有一些他們的主要的意見還有一些當然有主要有很多也是希望說就直接加入這個原住民的生活法這個也有但也有就是說希望就是說這個現在的這個原住民族基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4782.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4800.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
有的他們並不盡然完全適用是不是還要再外加一些就是說他們要另外再更保障他們這個都有我們都有整理很明顯的啦如果可以開放登記一開始開放登記你的地方的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4802.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4829.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
地方的有的是園民會有的是園民局有的是什麼的他們能力夠不夠那中央到底能不能有能力去承擔這一些很多平埔族人要來登記那跟委員報告這一開始我們主要是先解決這個認定原住民族就是他是平埔族然後就要認定他個人個人身份先做這個身份的這個登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4830.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4854.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
後續的潛力義務 我想我們也會很快的就跟上能做的我們就先做了 東北這個不容易啦 但是就是當然我們還是要先做不是啦 知委 我知道 這些我都知道啦我是說他要登記的時候 可能一下子湧了好幾萬人來要來登記那我們能不能負擔這一個啦 上次我的質詢 大概是這個方向嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4857.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4885.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我覺得啦 你們還是要及早準備啦尤其要跟地方要準備啦尤其是 我不知道主委你說平埔族身份的認定啦齁其實 齁啊 有一句話啦齁有登山公母登山馬啦那其實啊 很多人搞不好身上都有平埔族流的血液喔這個我們預估大概是一百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4886.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4910.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
對不對,但有可能更多啊所以你們這個很多的必須還是及早準備另外啊我們院版12條裡面有寫一個這個登記期間的限制登記期間的限制就是5年嘛,剛剛也有人講,必要時再延長5年 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4912.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4930.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
主委你覺得這一個5加5這樣子你覺得有沒有時間夠不夠會不會太短這個跟委員報告我們跟平埔族的族人就是說北中南還有到東部做黨的時候他們也認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4932.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4961.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
是不是五年太短是可不可以五年過了是不是再延長或者是有人是講是不是可以定二十年那這個我想我們也多尊重我們現在回來之後也在想是不是跟將來進入這個法條的審查是不是也跟大院委員來做一個請教就是說是怎麼樣是不是一定要二十年嗎還是十五年還是到了以後再來延也都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4963.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4975.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主委其實我為什麼會提這個問題你知道嗎有判例如果你這樣子給他限制他的他的身份是與生俱來的如果用年限來這樣子的話會不會有違憲的問題會違憲的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4988.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5004.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你們應該去研究一下這個是會不會因為他的身份本來就是與生俱來的啊對不對那我請教一下如果說剛好5加50年對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5006.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5031.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
他剛好人都在國外或什麼的他來不及回來或他回來的時候發現他有這個身份那他要登記我們跟他講說完全不行這個狀況也有可能會出現喔所以我覺得我們這個真的是要再討論那如果說以我們現在採取登記制 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5034.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5056.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
會不會說來比如說現在有一個葛馬蘭族但會不會再出現他新取得的叫做葛馬蘭平埔族會不會有這個情況出現我跟委員報告齁不要說平埔原住民你現在山地原住民齁也有排灣族他是山地原住民他也是平地原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5057.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5080.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
有啊 一樣 這個其實現在就有了所以 那麼你是譬如說撒基拉亞現在是平地原住民也有可能我們平埔原住民裡面也會有撒基拉亞族對啊 對啊所以主委你很清楚我現在所說的問題那所以未來我們台灣的原住民族會不會超過三四十族一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5086.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5110.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
不會了應該16再加現在平普最少是可能最多是10個組16加2626不會再我想來平普組現在10個大概10個大概10個那我們現在目前的本來就有的大概就16組對對不對那我剛剛跟你所說的會不會出現一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5113.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5129.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
葛瑪蘭的平埔族你也說有可能啊對不對所以你光平埔族裡面也有可能有16個他認為他是比如說葛瑪蘭的平埔族或什麼等等的會不會有這種情況出現會啊會啊因為他又是葛瑪蘭嘛他是平原對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5140.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5168.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
不是我跟你講很多情況都可能發生啦主委你知道我在說什麼所以未來台灣的這個原住民族絕對不是像你們剛說的10族然後再加16族26族也有可能會更多這個我都覺得啦我們在這個立法的過程或什麼我們都要必須要去考量啦因為從以前到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5170.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5198.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
通婚太多了啦對不對你不能限定他說他只有一個啊對不對這通婚那麼多啊尤其是平埔族或什麼都有他的各我們現在講的平埔族的始祖裡面有很多都有不同的文化啊對不對他連講一講他的文化是都不一樣的啊對不對所以我說的那種情況有可能會再出現很多族啊對不對我們要提早因應啦好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5202.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5209.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好 謝謝張宏祿 趙偉的諮詢報告委員會我們在高精素美委員諮詢完之後休息三分鐘下一位我們請徐玉珍委員諮詢謝謝主席 我們請那個曾主委已經曾主委 辛苦了被訓談了主委早喂 好主委 剛剛這個張宏祿那個委員在問您的時候您說平埔族有十個族群請問是哪十個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5230.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5241.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
譬如說希拉雅,還有嘎哈烏,百載還有道卡斯,大舞龍還有巴布拉,還有馬卡道祖還有巴布薩,還有凱達格蘭至少這九個對嗎?你剛講十個還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5247.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5262.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
紅咬 紅咬張畫的紅咬我們看一下這平埔族 因為我大概有做了一個表格不過我這邊是做了九個啦所以這邊的話 您看是哪一個族我們還沒放進去他哪一個沒有放進去所以我想其實剛剛卡哈烏沒有放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5275.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5300.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
就是少一個嘛對不對所以其實也是剛剛張宏魯委員特別講到事實上是不是有真的這十個而已還是還會有更多所以其實我們大概要討論的就是說平埔族現在到底他有多少族群他有多少的人口這可能都是我們要討論的重點那我們可以看到現在院版有一個這個平埔族平埔原住民族群的身份法的一個草案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5301.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5309.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我们可以看到这其实依据宪判自第17号的判决主文清楚的指出其实原住民主其他的台湾原住民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5310.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5336.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
及憲法增修條件第十條第十一項跟第十二項前段有規定保障的原住民族國家應該要維護他的語言跟文化那就這樣來看我們可以看到貴會的報告其實你引用的是黃大法官等協同意見書的說法認為現行法律對原住民族的各項優惠的事項與取得平埔原住民族的時候並非當然適用而另以法律定定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5337.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5361.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那所以主委您的意思是這樣的立法是不是已經預設說平埔族沒有辦法跟現有的原住民族享有同等的權益我跟委員報告現在的三眼平眼當然他們有目前在硬做的一個權益但是平埔原住民的族人一直以為就是說他現在一進來馬上就適用這個三眼跟平眼其實他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5362.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5382.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
自己平埔原住民所遭遇到的一些多年來的所遭遇到他們所損失的有時候是延延超過三延跟平延當然他們就不一定要完全適用現在的原住民所以你的意思是要比現在原住民更多的資源跟更多的保障跟更多的權益嗎如果照你剛剛這段話的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5384.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5413.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
過去他們欠錢尤其是他們的語言文化的流失是特別的嚴重當然我們就要用比較特別不是適用於現在的這個原住民基本法更要用另外的專法讓他們就是說他們讓他們的錢利更能夠更好更周圍這樣子好那請問一下主委我們現在平普族到底是多少人口內政部的統計內政部的統計就是說大概是會有98萬的人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5414.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5434.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這也是你5月22在這個備詢的時候提到的平埔族有98萬人那我們現在的原住民大概是61萬人那你剛剛提到的聽起來好像是平埔族權益資源應該要更多因為他們過去犧牲太多那這樣的話我們以原住民現有的這個今年的年度預算是122億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5437.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5464.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
是61萬人那如果你在把評估98萬人都納入的話請問一下主委你有沒有初步預算每年需要新增多少預算才不會造成族群間的資源排擠好 更為報告我們講98萬不是不是今年年底一下子就98萬一定登記的時候不可能一下子就98萬好 那如果登記了一半我們都會有我們都會現在我們正在盤整就是說我們假設到今年年底10萬人來登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5466.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5486.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
當然明年的預算當然就是必須預算那如果你預期10萬人那如果一次來了50萬人那你的預算要怎麼辦我跟委員報告這個預算當然我們要跟醫院裡面來做報告行政院來做報告當然國家的資源就必須要更多來預註來照顧那你這樣會不會排擠到其他部會的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5488.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5502.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個我想預算的部分嚴明會的預算就那麼多不可能說平埔原住民的的這個主人進來我們的預算還是那麼多這樣的話所以所以今天我們大家要其實比較質疑的就是說好現在我們平埔主要證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5503.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5527.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
可是你原有的原名的預算就這麼多那你們要怎麼去爭取多一些的預算進來而且你就像剛剛講的大家來登記到底多少人會登記其實不是你能夠預測的萬一一次我就跟你講萬一98萬人你們的宣導太好了因為福利更好所以可能一半的人就來登記那你的預算可能就要跟現在一樣多那理論上是不可能嘛因為你就會排擠到其他預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5528.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5556.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以我覺得這個應該你們都要先設想好不是說現在這個法丟出來之後我們就先讓他法案過然後之後再來慢慢想這些問題應該要超前部署應該要先了解啦是可以嗎主委我們會我們已經在盤點齁大概譬如說我們如果是年底十萬人進來十萬人來登記平埔園住民族那我們的這個好那主委你一直講十萬人我是不曉得這個依據怎麼來啦那如果變二十萬呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5558.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5572.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以我的意思就是說你一定要有一個依據你只講十萬一定有你的依據但那個依據要讓大家知道你的推估是不是可行的還是推估是不是正確的然後還有就是再來就是好剛剛講的資源之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5573.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5594.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
還有一個就是屬於政治的權利就是我們現在這個憲法增修條第四條就是平原跟山原各三人的立委保障好 如果未來平埔族也取得了原住民族的身份那到底他的部分要歸入平地原住民呢還是山地原住民還是應該要修憲給予平埔族獨立的保障席次呢目前你們有沒有什麼規劃各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5597.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5609.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這個有三顏平顏的席次這是憲法規定的那將來平埔原住民族他們說他們也要有一個平埔原住民族的規定這個要修憲 考量到修憲的現實就是修憲沒有那麼容易所以你現在把平埔族證明完之後然後告訴他我們沒錢也沒人 那這個修憲更困難那你平埔族證明的意義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5622.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5640.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們能做的先做 譬如說以語言先救 文化先救那你一下子要修憲沒有辦法現在爭取平埔族全英的這些人他們只希望的就是文化先做嗎 相關的先做嗎他們想要爭取的是這樣嗎其他的我們三年內會修法來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5642.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5658.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因為我們不可能一次全部都到位我想要提醒你的是我覺得不管你想要當然我們都知道不可能一步到位但是我覺得你們原民會還是應該有充分的一個準備也就是說相關可能遇到像我剛講的說政治權利生活權利還有身份認定跟財務的負擔其實都是你們必須要整體考量的否則的話你貿然推動下去然後過了這個法之後後續的應該要怎麼來去處理其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5672.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5684.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
聽起來原民會應該都還沒有一個還沒有一個完整的一個配套啦所以還是希望原民會這邊要有這樣子完整的配套再來談這個平補主我們這個草案的通過好嗎好謝謝喔謝謝委員好謝謝徐嶼森委員的資訊下一位我們請高金素美委員資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5697.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5723.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好 辛苦了主委主委有請今天我要感謝這個牛許廷召委這是一部難得由行政院主動提出的原住民族的專法我在立法院這麼長一段時間只要是有關原住民族的專法跟法案從來沒有行政院版本都是立法委員的版本而這是破天荒以來有行政院他主動提出的原住民族專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5725.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5743.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那麼執政黨自己呢 不願意把它優先處理如果不是我一再拜託我們今天的牛召偉排案的話我想今天這個案子根本也沒有辦法在我們內政委員裡面來順利審查這是我第一個要講的 我心裡面的感觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5744.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5767.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那麼今天我們審查了這部平埔專法的立法是因為憲判自第17號的判決憲法法庭的判決它有三大要求第一個要求是三年之內修正原住民身份法或者是另訂特別法期限是今年的10月27號很快就要到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5768.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5785.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
二 明文規範原住民族的認定機制跟族人的身份登記第三 針對平埔族群的權力保障要考慮它的歷史背景還有資源的分配並且要以法律明定但是我們今天看到的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5786.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5801.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
真的是有把平埔族人的要求放在這裡嗎真的是有把當時做市長的賴清德市長現在已經是總統的承諾有放在這裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5802.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5827.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們再來看一下,不僅僅是賴清德喔早在2016年的時候,蔡英文總統她也就公開承諾了她說請尊重平埔族群自我認同權要歸還原住民族的身份以及完整的民族權利而去年原民會你們報告上也講你們會依照憲法判決來修正原住民身份法 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5828.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5855.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
可是我們現在的這個草案既沒有修原住民身份法也沒有一次歸還身份跟權利然後呢還要把平埔族群另立專法然後把問題切割出去這跟當初不管是賴清德的承諾或者是蔡英文的承諾完全不符合啊所以呢我們看到有非常多的平埔族的族人抗議啊雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5857.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5883.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
主委您說你開了很多場的會議也跟大家說明了很多但是我們要看一下更誇張的是第23條的條文23條的條文寫說政府還要再花三年來嚴寧保障平埔族群的土地、醫療、交通、參政等等的基本權利的配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5884.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5898.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我们看一下宪法判决已经是三年前的事了政府花了三年才提出法案结果具体的权利还要再拖三年而这样的立法节奏 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5899.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5913.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
講白了就是一拖再拖這要讓我們平埔族人再等三年嗎然後在這裡我要請問一下主委三年之後能保證會有完整的配套法案嗎請問各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5917.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5936.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們是希望在三年內能夠全部都來做到但是有的這個法例其實不用到三年我們第一年就可以做的我們就必須要先做了有一些是當然我們是期待希望三年內所有可以照顧到平埔族人的法例我們都希望能夠把它訂好是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5936.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5957.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好啦 我們拭目以待啦 我是非常懷疑啦因為呢 就連原基法以及明文保障的權利其實呢 你們都沒有保護到我們現在的族人就在上週 最高行政法院112年度上至第487號判決講得非常的清楚 說什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5961.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5990.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
原基法第21條裡面原住民族的傳統領域的土地包括公有地也包括私有地原民會 諸位聽清楚了嗎也看清楚了嗎這個不是模糊地帶喔這個是我們的法律明文規定啊而且呢是最高行政法院已經說的所以呢根本就不需要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5991.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6006.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
自從106年原住民族土地或者部落範圍土地劃設辦法公佈以來,原民會你們就配合行政院一再的推卸責任,說法律沒有授權,私有地不可以處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6007.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6010.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我認為你們真的一直長期以來在誤導社會誤導各部會我認為這是惡意的來詮釋法律這也嚴重的傷害到了原住民族的土地權利更可惡的是什麼竟然我們有執政黨的立法委員尤其是原住民的立法委員刻意的混淆視聽然後帶風向說這個要修法才能夠處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6033.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6060.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我認為呢這是站在殖民者的立場講話為了政治的利益然後犧牲掉我們所有族人的權益這讓我憤怒啊明明最高行政法院已經說得很清楚了再講一遍原基法裡面第21條說的原住民族傳統領域土地包括公有地也包括私有地請問一下園民會這還需要修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6062.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6072.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們當然充分尊重最高行政法院對這樣的一個個案的裁判這不是個案 他的明文規定的字已經寫了原住民的傳統領域包括不僅僅是公有地也包括私有地 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6081.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6107.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我再說一下其他部會更得寸進尺像能源局呢在執政黨委員的要求之下他草率推出什麼地熱探勘指引這個明目張膽的要把諮商同意的限制放在公有地上面這也擺明了為開發業者護航要迴避跟部落協商的法律義務而 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6109.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6113.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我自己出生的地方和平區也陳情抗議我們的台電在傳統領域之內開發居然用什麼這是私有地為藉口完全就不尊重部落也漠視我們諮商同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6127.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6141.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
現在呢法院已經判決出來了請問主委法院再講一遍法院說原基法的第21條原住民族傳統領域的土地包括私有地您支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6142.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6161.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我想委員謝謝我們會跟這個中央地方我們一起來做這個通話性的檢討這就是我現在要告訴您的我要請原民會你們立刻修正韓式然後新聞各部會告訴就在上週 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6162.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6180.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我們的這個法院的判決說什麼原住民的傳統領域土地不論公私有都必須要踐行諮商同意權可以嗎可以好謝謝好繼續我要問你最重要的問題了現在已經幾月了主委6月底好原住民主要發禁法補償大概是幾月份會發 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6188.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6213.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
最快9月1號開始發放最快9月1號 你現在已經不到兩個月了吧不到兩個月吧我知道呢 園民會你們3月份的時候已經行文給行政院要求要追加預算然後補足行政院掃編的23.9億元的進法補償可是呢 行政院一直沒有正式回應您 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6214.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6237.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
還沒有 對嗎我們還繼續在 繼續在周四你知道嗎 上周四的時候 黃國昌主席他有質詢 他質詢副主席長副主席長已經公開的在立法院回應他了一兩個月之內 就會提案請問主委 這是真的嗎 您知道這件事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6238.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6262.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為我們已經很早就辦就希望能夠我知道啦你三月啊所以行政院根本就沒有聽到你的聲音啊所以才會只聽到黃國昌主席執行的時候我們的副主席長告訴他一直逼問之下才說這一兩個月之內就會提案所以主委這是我提醒您的這也是我告訴您的我希望呢您趕快跟主席長說黃國昌召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6266.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6293.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
在這邊質詢副主計長已經答應他一兩個月之內會提案可以嗎請主委你們也公開的跟族人具體的交代如果我們的行政院不依法追加預算把23.9億不足的進法補償給原住民的話這會造成很大的困擾第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6294.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6300.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
有人說如果領不到一公頃六萬塊他就會離開立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6301.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6324.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
第二個行政院的卓榮泰這個院長他親自在草野協商的時候在行政院簽名簽字寫說要用追加預算這是屬於一個行政院首長的承諾如果今天連行政院長的承諾都做不到的話那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6326.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6348.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我們的族人還要相信誰我們的國人還要相信誰第三個我要提醒您如果不是用追加預算而用我們的綜合發展基金的話這件事情知識體大為什麼綜合發展基金主委你清楚知道已經要破產了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6349.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6372.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
如果在破產的狀況還要原民會去找出這23.9億無非就是要讓我們基金以後要做的事情不能做甚至於要讓主委您自己擠破頭找出23.9億來補足這個缺口這個委屈原民會不能夠吞下去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6373.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6389.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個委屈我們全國的原住民的族人也不能夠吞下去啊因為這是在立法院三讀通過的法案必須要用公務預算來補所以這是非常清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6390.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6414.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我們的行政院我們的國家不能夠帶頭違法已經違法過一次了不能夠再有第二次主委這是我在這裡衷心的提醒你真是非常的重要好嗎好最後我要再提醒您的是我認為原民會你們真的非常的努力了但是我要坦白講你們並沒有能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6415.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6443.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
因為為什麼決策權全部都在行政院那我再講一下目前平埔族群相關的權利散落在哪裡不是只有園民會啊主委您知道還有文化部還有教育部還有衛福部還有經濟部等等不同的部會包括最重要的未來這些人進入到原住民大家庭之後他的選舉制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6444.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6450.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
的預算夠不夠 按照現在原民會的預算夠嗎你認為 不夠 不夠對不對你剛剛一直告訴我們說第一次這個登記可能會有十萬人光是登記這個費用就要錢了耶請問一下行政院有給你嗎 這個登記當然我們也會拜託內政部 護政系統他們來協助我們 給你了嗎 有答應了嗎目前還沒有 我們還在申請 好 所以您看 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6473.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6490.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
光是不管是賴清德不管是我們的蔡英文嘴巴上講要恢復這些人的權利要跟我們原住民回到同一個大家庭該面對的問題總是沒有面對所以呢現在請問一下園民會你有整合協調的能力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6492.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6519.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
有一些我們該拜託的我們當然會拜託其他部會但是該我們做的我們盡量就是都已經就希望準備好了就是希望我們馬上要成立就是審議會要審他們的民主別這個我們也都主委這不是你能做的但是我剛剛說的很清楚您不能做的非常多對吧誠實的說嘛所以我認為行政院呢必須要出面 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6520.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6536.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
負起這個責任因為這是蔡英文的選舉政見因為這是賴清德當時做台南市長的時候答應了平埔族人的所以我認為行政院如果重視這件事情他就必須要出面來負起總責統籌協調各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6540.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6558.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
從上而下規劃好一套完整的補償的平埔族群權利保障體系不要讓沒有能力的原民會當作不想回復平埔權利的遮羞布不要一等 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6559.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6576.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
又再等三年 一直在拖延下去平衡族群的基本權利還有法律地位不能夠再被推來推去無限期的延後所以今天我會要求園民會一周內提出具體的書面回應我會提這個書面的這個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6581.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6601.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
所以希望 主委這件事情很嚴重我剛剛替您說了很多話我認為 園民會包括您一直以來都很認真 都很努力但是你們真的都沒有決策能力今天很重要的幾點第一點 平埔族群的這些回復權利不是你園民會一個人的事情必須要行政院統籌 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6602.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6623.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
第二件事情原住民族的進法補償要依法用公務預算公務預算在今年沒有補足的麻煩用追加預算這也是卓榮泰說的承諾好不好第三你要行文給各部會我們的傳統領域的土地不是只有公有土地包括私有地 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6623.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6645.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
要不然的話 原民會你們要處理的案子就會非常非常的多我們人力已經不足了在處理這些事情的話 會去掉我們非常多現在你們應該要去做的一些事情好嗎好請主委擔起這個責任來 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝高金素美委員按剛剛宣告 休息三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6988.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6992.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好 我們繼續開會 我們繼續請牛許廷召委發言謝謝主席 曾志勇主委有請主委好你已經到了 很好 謝謝主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7007.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7025.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7026.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7043.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏要怎麼樣來做掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7044.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7071.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這有一個數據來講我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補組預估人數各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7072.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7092 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7093.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7108.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7109.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7128.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7136.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7162.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7163.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7189.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口名簿只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 以釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 但是有的他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7190.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7214.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
並沒有註記喔 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7216.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7243.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
都要符合捏都要符合喔那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦你來講應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下跟委員報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7244.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7268.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7269.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7286.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啊沒有我再給你補充說明一下再跟委員報告所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7287.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7308.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7309.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7329.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓到不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7330.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7343.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
好 那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件有多少人大概是多少 120 你來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7349.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7362.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7364.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7385.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7386.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7407.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
因為他是要一族一族一族的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛希臘雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7409.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7431.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7432.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7460.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7461.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7470.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7472.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7499.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7500.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7527.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
當然要再增加11億嘛 對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛好 謝謝我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位我就剛剛講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7529.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7531.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
可以做 就這樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7532.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7560.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是延民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7560.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7590.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平原很安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7590.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7615.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間 沒關係我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後 他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7616.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7632.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員謝謝劉昭偉的質詢也謝謝主委繼續呢我們請吳啟明委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7643.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7663.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好主席我們一位同仁請我們主委主委好主委針對我們今天討論的原住民的身份我們平補主的身份的法案那本席比較關心的就是我們上一次有有在推動就是進法補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7664.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7666.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那進化補償從剛開始我們是2.4萬公頃那到2024就變成7.8萬公頃 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7679.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7708.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那今兒我們從2萬3萬到目前的6萬但是你增加的這些工程那在本席這一邊最主要的說你認定的是2.4萬公頃那現在增加7.8公頃那裡面存在什麼意思存在了很多都是有人顧有人在炒作在本席這邊的資料真的非常不應該啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7710.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7730.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
在原住民他們的總人口他們所實際領到的只有16%那其他的都變成在大地主然後是不是還有人刻意去炒作去說過這些我們都要查也不能說政府的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7731.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7750.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
就讓知情的人他們去炒作那這樣對我們整個原住民我們當初我們所設計出來的要給原住民的生活原住民的的地主他們能來領到這筆錢那你現在變成了整個都荒腔左反了請主委來做說明好這個我跟委員報告這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7758.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7780.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
淨化補償當然是從一開始的2.4公頃現在慢慢變成7.8公頃多有很多原因第一個就是後來也很多我們自己的原住民的族人他們的土地他們也都來只要符合這個規定他們就來申請做淨化補償這個是有的那志祺委員剛剛講的那個就是集中在少數的這個少數人來領取這個資源的話我們也有做整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7787.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7802.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
大概就是說這個超過5公頃的超過10公頃超過20公頃的大概佔這個比例大概是5%左右那我們希望就是說我們也會整理來追蹤超過20 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7805.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7823.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
超過20公頃是怎麼樣登記來我們在了解這個過程為什麼會有人登記到那麼多的公頃這個才是重點這個為什麼會有這樣子我們現在也在追查在本席的資料有一個人就掌握了160多公頃那這太遜了吧還有都集中在400多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7829.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7834.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那這都不成比例啊那都證明都有人刻意在炒作啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7837.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7859.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們當初的設計是要給我們原住民他們那些岩墾籠這才有意義啊那你這樣就變成一些在炒作的你還是要去把它設定都不能這樣就讓他們說這對我們真正的原住民是一個非常不公平的事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7860.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7884.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
對,這個就失去了營運,所以我們現在正在勤查做盤查跟委員報告就是說到底為什麼會集中在個人其他,當然有的是透過買賣有的是透過是正義還有繼承,那我們現在會把它整理起來就是說不希望這樣的這個炒作變成是集中在少數幾個人這樣那就失去了這個,失去了這個營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7885.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7911.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
要給我們原住民他們增加他們的收入對他們以前彌補 以前對他們不公平的那你現在都是集中在400多人 還有一個人佔了160多公頃那這真的是太離譜了吧我們希望 主委你一定要去徹查要是炒作的話 我們政府就沒必要發這筆錢好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7915.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7934.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這一定要很嚴謹去徹查然後再來就是我請問一下主委我們的國際機場那個A13現在做好了我聽說整個品質也不是很好廠商進駐的意願也不高那現在整個營運的狀況怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7936.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7939.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這是桃園市政府當初跟會議員申請的計劃目前已經在去年的8月1號正式營運了 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7951.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7974.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這是因為我的資料裡面它還有漏水的問題啊還有整個工程的品質的問題啊這個部分桃園市政府正在跟OT的廠商還有就是說當初施作的廠商在做協調跟處理因為我們花了十億啊 十億這也是很大的金額啊我們一定要負責監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7976.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8004.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
既然就已經做了那整個營運的狀況也不是很理想那都是我們要去改進的好不好那主委你那個針對那個靜瓦補償那個少數人一定要去徹查好不好這樣才比較公平不然我們原住民山區我也知道對靜瓦補償我從來都是支持但是有一點就是我們是要落實真正的在原住民身上好不好好謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8008.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8026.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
謝謝物其林委員的諮詢下一位我們請張志倫委員諮詢張志倫委員好 報告 張志倫委員改書面諮詢下一位我們請鄭天才委員諮詢好 早安 委員好你好 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8038.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8067.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
首先要謝謝我們召委這個高精素美委員還有我分別拜託了召委好幾次終於安排了這個今天的審查會這個平埔原住民的法案事實上這個在106年9月22號行政院就函送了原住民身份法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8067.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8077.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
送到立法院在內政委員會召開了106年11號106年12月20號106年12月21號107年12月24號四次的委員會議終於送出去但是民進黨團在立法院絕對多數但是並沒有列入二讀三讀的審查所以沒有三讀通過所以才會憲法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8097.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8108.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這個接下來的這個判決之所以沒有通過我不知道但是一定是認為此事體大好這個憲法的判決111年10月28號做成的111年憲判制第17號判決三年內要完成這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8122.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8150.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
修法或者是另訂專法為了這個部分本席也曾經質詢過卓榮泰院長甚至這個寫信給陳時中政務委員也寫信給卓榮泰院長要趕快把平埔原住民族群身份法趕快送來吹了又吹終於這個我們今天可以審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8152.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8181.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好 演兵會的報告裡面特別提到就是這個憲法判決裡面也提到這個斟酌國家資源的分配當然也要看平埔族群平埔原住民的相關的這些這個生活發展的一個情形要另以法律定制這個我們賴會員賴委賴會員所提的說要適用原住民族教育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8182.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8209.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個部分演民會也有做了一個說明事實上我們要很很明確的要很明確的會影響最起碼幾例就幾例光我們現在的原住民三眼平眼就讀大專學生的出債協力沿漢之間差距34% |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8212.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8240.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
而且是從107閒年度的31%點多還持續的在增加拉大這個紀律對我們原住民族的教育程度的提升會嚴重的很大的影響所以我們有時候要用透過數字數據來讓這個相關的委員或是其他的社會大眾的了解影響會很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8241.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8269.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好這個行政院版評普原住民族群身份法你的第22條啊明定適用原住民族語言發展法及原住民族傳統自衛創作保護條例原住民族傳統自衛創作保護條例沒有問題但是對於原住民族語言發展法看起來沒有問題事實上如果我們細看原住民族語言發展法第25條 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8271.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8299.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
就提到原住民參與公務人員特種考試公費留學考試 應取得原住民族語言能力認證這個就會有解釋的問題啊因為你寫適用嘛既然適用了這個原住民族語言發展法那就要他取得認證 就要他就可以考原住民行政特考啊公費留學考試啊像這個第26條 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8301.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8328.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
原住民族研發展法第26政府機關公立學校及公營事業機構依原住民族工作權保障法進入人員是應優先雇用既原住民族以言能力認證平埔原住民他也會以言能力認證他通過了之後我有啊然後你要讓我適用這個所以會有這樣的一個爭議所以要很謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8331.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8356.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以本席的版本是準用準用會更嚴謹就不會到時候也產生這些爭議這個我們來討論的時候審查條文的時候要去留意還有一個很重要的很重要的行政院版是說政府因本法施行後三年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8358.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8387.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
充分考量各評估原住民族群以其成員之歷史發展脈絡及現況並斟酌國家資源分配這個部分都是憲法法庭的判決後面這邊制定或修正相關法例保障其政治參與交通水利衛生醫療經濟土地及社會福利等權利看起來是沒有什麼問題符合憲法法庭的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8388.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8413.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
但是會慢你還要去每一個法例去你到底要制定什麼法例也不明確所以本席的版本直接就寫制定平埔原住民族群基本法等法例或修正相關的法例來保障這些以下的為什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8414.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8437.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
你直接提出平埔原住民族群基本法就可以很明確的知道哪些是需要制定的在這個基本法裡面就會有所有的就會有所有的權益的保障或是都會在這裡面會更明確所以這個部我們設法 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8438.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8467.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我们要想办法去协调人民会协调相关的委员下次审查的时候能够朝这个方向就会很清楚直接提出草案大家讨论平普原住民族族群基本法大家直接可以讨论何况立法院已经商读通过了新住民的基本法所以这个部分是一个很好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8467.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8497.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
應該往這個方向去努力才能夠充分的保障時間的關係譬如說很快的本習及國民黨的立委已經提案修憲了徵修條保障平埔原住民的立法委員的名額這個叫修憲今天你都有提到那個涉及到修憲超過38個人的立委已經連署了 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8498.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8527.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個就是我們要積極的積極的去去推動積極的去推動包括地方製度法知道嗎地方製度法三條我們已經把它本來是要總額原住民的立委三年平年原住民的議員的名額本來是在總額之內我們去年已經把它修了總額之外啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8529.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8555.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
總而之外了所以要修地方制度法增加平埔原住民的一年的名額就很容易了所以這個不我們要把它充分的說出來讓平埔原住民能夠知道我們是真正為他們爭取錢我們是積極的來去爭取錢因為不要一直牽扯在 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8556.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8583.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
要不要適用原住民族基本法我們直接就制定平埔原住民族群基本法那才是一個更快 而不是在那邊爭執 好不好我們可以明確的往前是不是這樣好可以嗎可以 可以我們進入這個條文的實質審查的時候再來因為你都沒有聲音不好啊 還要有紀錄謝謝啊 謝謝好 蔡責任蔡責任加油加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8585.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8594.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
好 謝謝鄭天才委員下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8605.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8620.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們要請教一下我們的主委我們延民會為了推動原住民人權保障的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8621.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8639.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
推動的工作 設有人權工作小組但在延民會官網上 我們看到最新的記錄還留在2023年第三的會議但根據我們延民會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8641.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8670.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
原住民委員會人權工作小組設立的要點在每六個月最少需要召開一次的會議但是目前我們官網公開的資料就是最後一次就是這個日期所以我們在2023年11月9號就是距離現在就是遠遠超過我們的設定要點所以說這個半年請問一下我目前超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8671.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8690.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
一年半的時間我們延民會這邊的人權工作到底是有沒有召開這都是問號再問號啦所以再回應一下好 謝謝委員其實我們都有看不過更細的是不是那個我們的處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8690.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8709.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
就更清楚的這個說明好跟委員報告就是2024年的我們有按規定每六個月開一次但是我們就是可能漏掉了把那個會議紀錄上傳到網站那2025年的部分因為我們委員任期到所以上半年我們在聆聘委員聆聘之後我們會按照那個規定再召開這個委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8712.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8736.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以你們有召開都沒有更新要開什麼不知道所以如果有開的話為什麼公開的會議記錄會停留在2023年我還要注意到第三個會期記錄裡面我們的出席的小組委員像剛才你說的但是我們只共十位兩位請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8739.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8746.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
六位人代表六位是代表來開會的不是本人所以主委這個比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8747.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8772.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
要收管嗎所以我們小組委員是由組委聘任的像我們組委上任後呢小組的會議有無這些有沒有到齊了或者有積極去推動嗎因為我們沒看到你講的我們也沒有看到網路都沒有了你們怎麼樣去開會或者這樣子的比例是開會有效嗎各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8777.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8795.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
剛剛講的這些我們的會議記錄有一些就是我們有開但是沒有上網的我們會補足很快的我們回去趕快補足那至於這些代理的是會裡面的主管是代理外聘的委員還是一樣的出席開會你是說外聘的是沒有代理是內聘的有代理這樣的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8806.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8831.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
如果是內聘的代理的話 大家都要送班來開會都沒有來 還找別人代理這個叫內聘嗎不是 科學院處長他有其他的業務來代理的大部分都是科長以上一年要開兩次會 就是還有其他的所以這些都不重要 不重要這個委員還要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8835.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8840.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個我回去會再要求跟委員包括我們回去要求就是不可以這樣子都是代理的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8841.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8845.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對啊 因為代理是說外聘還是內聘 我們這小組裡面十個人就是兩個請假 六個代理所以這個是開這個會 是沒有開還是有開 開的效率如何 也不敢放在網路所以這個真的是我們覺得這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8867.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8882.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以說你說根據我們這樣子的重要規定就是不僅是拍刃還有就是繼續這樣子的方式的話我們覺得說我們前任委員有沒有續聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8883.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8895.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
或者是說所有的小組有沒有按照這樣子去開所以我們今年在審查預算我也注意到我們延民會不管便利預算的計畫還有就是說我們的推動上 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8899.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8902.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
都是說經常讓人覺得說 人民會相當就是不消極很敷衍 不認真 所以我們覺得說連我們剛才你說的 連內聘都不把這個當一回事所以我們覺得說這樣的小組為了配合行政院的人權保障 收集的督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8922.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8927.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們原住民族是說司法我們的人權但是我們種族歧視等的爭議案件我覺得是非常重要的一件事情希望我們原民會要更積極才真正的讓我們原住民朋友的權利真的有保障因為這個是人權的委員會開到你六六 我們的人權在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8948.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8976.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
所以這個部分我希望是我們的主委真的要重視啦好第二個就是要想要請問一下今天的我們的憲法法庭在11年的宣判原住民身份違憲後依法在3年內要完成這個修法還有另外訂一個特別法今年10月就是到期限了所以呢在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8977.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8980.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
言明會在五頁積極業務報告中也說到務實推動原住民主法的體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8989.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9009.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
體系制度所以我們報告上也有寫113年開始在辦了九場一見徵詢會議請問這個會議中有多少現有的原住民族代表還有有多少真正的就是來自平埔 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9010.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9037.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
體系組的這個評補組的族人參與或有就是目前掌握的人數還有我們的會議質詢的族人占比了多少但是我們都沒有看到所以我們希望說真的要聽大家的意見還有參加嗎不是用講的所以我們希望這個真正就是聽大家的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9040.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9053.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我們所有的座談會會議紀錄也會在網站上來呈現而且我親自去主持的就是一定是平埔原住民的族人來參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9054.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9081.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那當然有一些場是人比較多比如說像台南有到七八十個人至少七八十個人來那最少都超過五十個人參加不但是只有平埔原住民的族群我們召開原來的山地原住民跟平地原住民我們也召開五場因為這個多少他們也要讓他們感受到就是說他們也要表達意見對這個平埔原住民生物法草案的這個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9084.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9093.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
成立之後這個成立之後發布之後對他們有什麼影響我們也必須要做說明所以跟委員報告我們會在網站上來呈現參加的人數還有內容我們會補齊對還有他們的就是我們的群體的意見因為目前已經有九個提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9105.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9122.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
就是我們的民主的識別申請嘛這是我們但是我們的就是屬南島語系的民主制其他的原住民民主也是在這個這個這一群寫者共同發表的聲明呼應主管機構應該禁訴依法核定並公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9126.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9131.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
避免就是延遲了我們族群的權利所以說如果你有這樣子去開會那很多人為什麼還有說在報告中就看到的是我們的特政研議辦理我們民主認定的程序作業目前研議的如何還有審查的時間多長 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9151.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9155.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
如果是有明確的話為什麼還有人再來去所以我們希望說在實務推動不只是法規的訂定而且說在乎整體的政策資源排擠還有重新分配我們要請教我們的主委說在我們掌握的 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9171.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9192.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
平埔組人口數多少還有未來增加這個組別的時候必須我們延民會現有的配置資源會不會不夠是否已經佔用的人數有向行政院爭取這些的預算嗎我們平埔組未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9194.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9204.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
經特別法認定族群公告後取得身份是否直接應用原住民族的基本法有無就是銜接應用的問題這個都是到目前為止報告中我們是沒有看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9211.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9225.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我跟委員報告你當然我們現在在盤點那最重要是這個法這個法過了之後我們立刻就做後面的這些這些工作當然我們已經都準備好了準備好了他今天要三年準備什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9227.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9230.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
準備好我們到今天報告也沒看到所以我們希望我們就是目前有區分啦剛才我們也有我們的政委也有說我們分就是山地原住民平地原住民未來新增了平埔族的後呢我們原住民後我們如何在倡政權還有不論就是任何我們的種族的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9254.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9260.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
就是都要平等的參與所以原住民是否針對就是我們平埔族的族群整體的規劃不管是社會福利、教育輔助或者文化的傳承與鼓勵的方案如果有的話這個部分因為已經快三年了現在來排但是我們看到報告裡面都沒有了所以說你準備好這好到一、好到二、好到好這個我們都沒看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9282.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9284.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以說如果真的剛剛的這些討論議題如果我們原住民內部都有討論希望你真的拿出來讓大家覺得是說不要耍傻所以說我們必須說只要就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9299.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9302.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
判限我們的我們這個針對這個憲法跟對這個需求我們一定要真正的落實不要等我們朝委在排的時候你也拿不出東西拿不出東西就說有有有我們就看不出來所以我們希望真正的屬於我們原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9321.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9337.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
的需求還有說不同族群的權利我們主委更用心的啦最後是不是讓我們有一些我們的會議資料等等是不是我們補充一份給我們麥委員好不好好好所以要拜託一下謝謝好謝謝麥委員最後我們請徐信委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9351.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9376.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 謝謝主席那曾主委好曾主委好好 曾主委今天本席想要就原住民未成年少女的關懷來向您提出質詢我們很希望每位原住民的少女都能夠像高山百合那樣盛開然後像朝陽一般的燦爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9377.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9397.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
本席先請教你,你知道我要問什麼問題嗎?你們有沒有發現原住民少女有哪些你們沒有做好,而且很有問題的?原住民少女的相關關懷,在你們是哪一個單位? |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9398.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9425.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
在這裡 社福處是不是叫做什麼 社福處那跟委員報告沒有 我是請問主委沒關係 你知道社福處就好主委 您知不知道有沒有在注意一些很多人關心原住民各方面上次本席質詢問您這個原住民學生退學的問題你也不知道數據那原住民少女有什麼問題 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9426.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9435.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
是不是有些家暴的問題家暴所以你知道有家暴問題然後還有呢大概是家庭的問題什麼的問題家庭這個是我等一下要講的現在我們看到今天戶政司也來了內政部戶政司的一個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9456.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9478.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
2021年全國15到19歲的少女生育15到19歲她就開始生育的這個比率全國的比率全國這樣的少女的比率是千分之3.5那你知道原住民少女這樣的比率是多少嗎你們有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9482.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9508.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
應該是2到3倍 錯 4到5倍所以這麼高 17.2人家3.5 你們17.2所以剛剛主委你不敢講我聽到旁邊的幕僚說原住民未成年少女有什麼問題除了家庭暴力 他再講了一些問題所以你知道家庭的問題 那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9511.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9518.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
顯然你們沒有注意那這一個問題你們覺得可以怎麼樣來來防治或者是來改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9520.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9546.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
當然即刻我們就是要求就是我們的散佈在各個縣市的原家中心我們要他們原家中心我們要他們去追蹤 要他們去去追蹤 宣導然後包括我們的這個你要宣導什麼 重點是宣導嘛他們的問題你們要解決其實這些少女 你看她才十幾歲要去關懷 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9549.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9574.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
要去關懷,你怎麼關懷?我想請教,你們有沒有可能建立原住民少女陪伴員的制度?可不可以?原家社工就可以囉,還有社工員也可以可是你社工都沒有掌握啊,才會這樣比例,你看比一般我們全國的數據高出這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9576.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9604.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
特別是原住民少女我相信你們應該要很清楚從國中到高中他的一個銜接期很多人會離鄉寄宿所以他面臨了孤立還有歧視所以產生他高等於是很早就生育的這種高風險點很多學者都研究這個數據也一直有但是我沒有看到你們在重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9608.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9635.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個謝謝委員的指教我們即刻就說要馬上要加護中心還有我們的社工園要去追蹤而且剛剛講委員講的希望解決他們的問題你追蹤是針對已經有這樣的你繼續關懷他那你不能讓這種情況一直發生所以你要去找那個根源嘛那很多少女他如果有陪伴園制度他有孤立無援的時候他才有人可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9638.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9663.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這種投訴或者是尋求對他的支援啊所以你們那個原家中心的那個是叫輔導員社工員他對我們很多的這樣的一個少女他平常他也沒有辦法掌握啊我們會要求啦你要怎麼要求那你在執行面有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9666.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9689.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 你剛剛有講家暴 那家庭問題 很多還有失能家庭的問題 你們要怎麼解決好 那跟委員報告齁 那因為我們現在已經納入到社會安全網裡面那我們原家中心跟主流的社福中心是兩個齁 合作那我們現在針對齁 只要是說在家庭當中 個案當中我早就預期你們會講合作你合作的結果就是數據一直增加 不行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9689.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9715.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
所以我們原家中心222個社工園當中也會讓我們所有在前面的預防的一些相關宣導會做每年大概我們的場次大概都有一百多場以上社福那邊是不是在衛福部是的所以那我接著再請教主委你有沒有形成一個跨部會的一個機制因為這個跟原民會教育部甚至衛福部都有關啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9715.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9729.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
有你們有形成這個跨部會的機制那本席可不可以要求就是說原住民少女生活照顧撫育或輔導的這樣的機制有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9733.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9757.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
特別針對原住民因為我們現在都有跟衛福部有一個聯繫會議我們本身也有推動這個小組那我們會相關就是針對一些像這種你那個推動小組在哪裡在你們我們會內也有就是針對人民會裡面對 會內也有那你現在全國這樣散下去你們怎麼掌握因為我們現在各地方政府當中也有一些33位的督導那有 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9759.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9773.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
66個原家中心所以我們固定都有一個聯繫會議在掌握這些事情可是掌握你有沒有落實嘛是我們會加強落實那請問因為有關家庭暴力貧窮或者是要飲酒飲都可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9774.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9797.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
增加原住民少女提早生育的風險那你們有沒有投入針對他們的祖父母或是他們的這種創傷療癒的計畫來強化家庭的支持能夠阻斷這種這麼多少女他自己身心都沒有發展成熟你就讓他生育 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9798.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9808.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
是 因為這個是一個個案是從一個家庭個案當中因為我們講的Case就是個案會從個案當中他所有家庭的成員當中都會去幫他做一個處遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9810.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9836.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那可是你們平常對原住民這種家庭有這種家庭暴力不能有了個案才開始那就是發生了我指的是你知道嘛哪些家庭有家庭暴力這一定會知道嘛或真的特別貧窮的還有藥飲跟酒飲我真的不希望我第五會期還會在這因為下個會期很快就到了我給你們一些時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9838.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9857.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這一塊拜託好不好來加強我們自己原住民的孩子對不對他們這麼年少可不可以給他們一個很美好很燦爛很陽光的人生好嗎好謝謝加油謝謝好謝謝徐信英委員的諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9859.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9887.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
報告委員會登記發言委員除不在常則以外其餘均已發言完畢我們詢答到此結束張志倫委員高金素美委員蘇巧慧委員丁學忠委員所提書面質詢我們都列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢以及剛剛質詢未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會報告委員會本次會議僅進行法案條文宣讀現在請宣讀討論事項所列法案之條文請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9888.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9917.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
法名称行政院提案委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均为平普原住民族群身份法第一条行政院提案为认定平普原住民族群保障平普原住民身份认同权特制定本法委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案同行政院提案第二条行政院提案本法所称主管机关在中央委员原住民族委员会在指辖市为指辖市政府在县市为县市政府委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9918.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9944.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
第三条行政院提案本法用词定义如下依平普原住民族群指宪法增修条文第四条第二项第一款规定所称山地原住民及平地原住民之外寄存于台湾同属南岛语系民族之其他台湾原住民族其民族语言习俗传统等文化特征至今仍然存续其成员仍维持族群认同且有客观历史记录可及并依其民族医院申请中央主管器官报请行政院核定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9945.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9971.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
2.评普原住民指评普原住民族群之个人依本法规定登记取得评普原住民身份者委员林一景等提案同行政院提案委员赖会员等提案同行政院提案并着作文字修正第四条行政院提案政府应办理评普原住民族群社会及经济状况调查并应于各项调查统计及专题分析纳入评普原住民族群政府办理评普原住民族群相关事务时应符合宪法增修条文特于保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9972.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9996.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
原住民族之文化之意旨避免反于历史事实及国际保护原住民族潮流委员林一锦等提案委员赖会员等提案军统行政院提案第五条行政院提案平补原住民族群之核定由申请人简句申请书市民下列事项并简附有关佐证资料向中央主管机关提出依该民族之语言习俗传统等文化特征至今仍然存续 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9996.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10025.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
二该民族之成员仍维持族群认同三有客观历史记录佐证该民族为寄存于台湾之南岛与西民族四该民族成员之身份认定要件前项申请人为自然人者因为成年并有三十人以上为经合法立案之人民团体者应付立案证书为拎起等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第六条行政院提案前条第一项第一款锁定文化特征至今仍然存续之审查基准如下一申请民族之 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10025.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10048.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
民族语言习俗传统及其他文化特征具独特性二申请民族之成员兼就前款文化特征有持续实践之民族文化活动或生活事实委员林一锦等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第七条行政院提案第五条第一项第二款所定为持族群认同之审查基准如下一申请民族之成员有意愿组成特定原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10049.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10070.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
二申请民族之成员有显著认同自身为该族群体成员之自我意识并有与其文化认同有关之客观事实可自证明委员林毅进等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第八条行政院提案第五条第一项第三款所定客观历史记录指下列各款规定之一者一申请民族之成员本人或其直系写清 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10070.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10085.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
尊卿属于日治时期户籍资料内有收评或其他足以证明其属于台湾南岛语系民族之登记或登记形式二申请民族之成员本人或其直系写信尊卿属于日治时期户籍资料以外之政府公文书资料内 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10086.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10100.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
有足以证明其属于台湾南岛语系民族之资讯三申请民族之成员本人或其直系写亲尊亲属于公司立大专业校院或学术研究机构之研究成果内有足以证明其属于南岛台湾南岛语系民族之资讯 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10105.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10124.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
第九条行政院提案第五条第一项第四款锁定身份认定要件至审查基准如下一要件应具体明确二要件应有助于促进原住民族文化认同之目的三要件应符合比例原则主管机关应将第五条第一项第四款事项于政府公报及机关网站公告周知供任何人以书面或于指定网站表达意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10125.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10142.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
其公告期间不得少于30日中央主管机关应会及前项意见转交申请人就参彩请行提供回应或说明并入后续审议之参考委员林毅进等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十条行政院提案中央主管机关为审议第五条之申请案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10142.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10169.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
应邀请相关领域之专家学者组成审议会依第六条至第九条规定之审查基准进行审议前向审议会委员因为11人以上任意性别委员不得少于总额三分之一第一项之审议应经前向委员总额三分之二以上参与委员现有总额过半数同意审议会做成审议结果前应邀请申请人与申请民族之成员及直辖市县市主管机关陈述意见并得召开公听会委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10171.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10194.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
委员林英景等提案删除第三项,原第四项一列第三项,其余同行政院提案,委员赖会员等提案同行政院提案。第十一条行政院提案,中央主管机关就前条第一项之审议结果,应报请行政院核定并将行政院核定结果通知申请人,刊登政府公报,其公开与机关网站广泛周知,委员林英景等提案,委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10194.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10218.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
第十二条行政院提案依前条规定和定为平补援助民族群者其民族成员身份认定要件由主管机关公告五年必要时经中央主管机关征询该民族意愿后得在延长公告期间一次延长公告期间以五年为限符合前项公告之民族成员身份认定要件者得于公告期间检据相关事证项指辖市县市主管机关申请登在于该族民族成员名册 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10218.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10245.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
直辖市县市主管机关就前项申请之处理期间为二个月有意义时的喊请中央主管机关协助前三项民族成员身份认定要建制公告与征询民族意愿之方式登载民族成员名册之作业程序及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之委员林英景等提案同行政院提案委员赖会员等提案第一项前段之由主管机关公告五年修正为由主管机关公告二十年其余同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10246.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10271.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
第十三条行政院提案本法实行前已依其他法令核定制民族别其成员未依原住民身份法规定取得原住民身份者得依本法规定取得得依本法申请取得平补原住民族成员之身份并得不适用第五条第一项第一款至第三款规定本法实行前已提出平补原住民族群核定制申请尚未经核定者依第六条至第十二条规定办理 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10272.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10287.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
为林一景等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十四条行政院提案经登在于第十二条规定之民族成员名册者得依第二十一条规定申请取得评普员住民身份为林一景等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10288.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10307.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
第十五条行政院提案附货母为平埔原住民且符合下列各款规定之一者得取得平埔原住民身份一取用附货母所属平埔原住民族群之传统名字二取用汉人姓名并以原住民族文字并列附货母所属平埔原住民族群之传统名字 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10307.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10322.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
三从具评补原住民身份之父或母之姓依前项第二款规定取得评补原住民身份其子女从其姓者依依同款规定取得评补原住民身份委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10322.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10348.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
第十六条行政院提案非原住民今年满四十岁且无子女之原住民双亲共同收养双亲之一据评补原住民身份且符合下列各款规定者得取得评补原住民身份一当事人被收养时未满七岁二取用或以原住民族文字并列据评补原住民身份收养者所属原住民族之传统名字或从据评补原住民身份收养者之姓本法施行前未满七岁之非原住民为 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10349.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10365.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
原住民双亲收养者不不受前项双亲需年满四十岁且无子女规定之限制为离境等提案为赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十七条平补原住民有下列情形之一者丧失平补原住民身份一 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10366.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10394.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
一第十五条规定取得平补原住民身份后应变更姓名之位符合该规定二一前条规定取得平补原住民身份后终止收养关系三成年后申请放弃平补原住民身份曾因前项第三款规定申请放弃并丧失平补原住民身份且无同项第一款或第二款规定情事者得申请回复平补原住民身份其回复以一次为限一第一项第三款规定申请丧失平补原住民身份者 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10395.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10417.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
其申请时之执系写清被清除之评补原住民身份不丧失委员领警等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案第十八条行政院提案未取得评补原住民身份评补原住民身份当事人依本法取用并列评补原住民族群之传统名字或从信未成年时由法定代理人书面约定申请成年后依个人意愿申请 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10418.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10436.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
不受民法第1059条第1项第4项第1078条第1项第2项及姓名条例第1条第2项规定之限制依前项规定申请取得评普员住民身份除出生登记外未成年时及成年后各以一次为限委员领警等提案委员赖会员等提案军统行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10437.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10459.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
第十九条 行政院提案 评普原住民身份别 非依法律规定不得变更 父母属于不同原住民身份别者 子女未成年时由法定代理人书面约定 或成年后一个人意愿登记或变更身份别 前项规定 于依第十六条规定取得评普原住民身份者不适用之 委员林英景等提案 委员赖会员等提案 均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10460.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10482.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
第20条行政院提案评普原住民因依其父母父后母之所属评普原住民族群登记其民族别其评普原住民传统名字或重新依与其登记之民族别相关联前项民族别之登记变更及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之委员林一景等提案委员赖会员等提案均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10482.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10499.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
第21条行政院提案,评估原住民身份之取得丧失变更及回复之申请,由户政事务所受理,审查符合规定后,于户籍资料内登记其身份别及名字别,并于登记后发生效力,委员林一景等提案,委员赖会员等提案,均同行政院提案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10500.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10522.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
为01警等提案第22条因户籍登记错误脱漏或其他原因误登记为平补原住民身份或漏位登记为平补原住民身份者当事人户籍所在地之户证事务所应运之息后书面通知当事人为撤销或更正之登记或由当事人向户籍所在地之户证事务所申请查明并为撤销或更正之登记 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10523.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10549.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
第二十二条行政院提案评估原住民族群语言及文化之保障适用原住民族语言发展法及原住民族传统智慧创作保护条例政府应维护保存及发展评普原住民族群文化制定政策及规划区域发展时应评估对评普原住民族群文化之冲击影响并确保评普原住民之权益及发展各级教育主管机关应本于多元平等自主尊重之原则 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10550.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10569.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
并考量平补原住民族群历史正义及转型正义之需求推动相关教育政策促进全体国民认识与尊重平补原住民族群并得鼓励补助非盈利之机构法人或团体对社会大众进行平补原住民族群及多元文化教育委员李英景等提案第23条同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10570.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10597.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
委员赖会员等提案第一项修正为平补原住民族群语言及文化之保障适用原住民族语言发展法原住民族传统智慧创作保护条例及原住民族教育法其余同行政院提案第23条行政院提案政府应于本法施行后三年内充分考量各平补原住民族群与其成员之历史发展脉络及现况并斟酌国家资源分配制定或修正相关法律保障其政治参与交通水利 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10598.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10622.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
卫生医疗经济土地及社会福利等权利委员林一锦等提案第24条前段之政府应运本法施行后三年内修正为二年内其余同行政院提案委员赖会员等提案同林委员林一锦等提案第24条第24条行政院提案本法自公布日施行委员赖会员等提案委员林一锦等提案第25条均同行政院提案宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10625.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10631.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
好謝謝那我們就做以下決議討論事項所列議案我們另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |