| IVOD_ID |
16789 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16789 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025062473 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-26T15:30:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-26T17:05:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:34:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce60931de57f1aa3690eb5714c0999f52418e1797692e3a0d1825aec5862d8f115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-26T16:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法部分條文修正草案」，請審議案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:30:02 - 17:05:00 |
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1900.224 |
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1906.13 |
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好 謝謝大家好 謝謝各位我們今天現在 |
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1914.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1936.078 |
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開始協商會議本日協商台灣民眾黨黨團拟據法院組織法部分條文修正草案協商進行前先介紹在場的委員首先右手邊莊瑞雄委員陳培宇委員左手邊羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1938.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1960.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
還有張祺凱委員、林國成委員、劉書斌委員非常感謝三個黨團都有代表到場我們今天列席的官員有司法院的副秘書長王梅英王副秘歡迎有行政廳的廳長吳作成吳廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1963.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1983.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
有行政廳的法官 李曉芬 李法官還有法務部檢察司的司長 張曉文以及主任檢察官 范孟山好 歡迎針對今天協商 我們就現在開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1985.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2010.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那台灣民眾黨黨團拟據法院組織法部分條文修正草案經過5月9號第三會期第11次議會決定自委員會抽出禁覆二讀由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商那後來呢有經過民主進步黨的黨團提出覆議那覆議不通過那按照原作的決定來通過那請參閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2012.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2017.691 |
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那提案的關係文書與會委員如果修正動議或機關有建議的內容請提出書面應發現場來進行討論那我們現在是不是先請我們一樣 |
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2028.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2046.252 |
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協商的時候我希望能夠比較有效率一點那各位黨團把自己的立場跟理由說明一下那我們是不是先請提案的黨團台灣民眾黨黨團的代表說明那是不是先請我們台灣民眾黨黨團副總召張祺凱張委員代表說明時間三分鐘 謝謝好 |
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2054.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2071.548 |
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台灣民眾黨是為了要落實總統府司改會106年做成的決議要求法律省的原詞辯論要前面直播而且嚴厲把事實省的特定案件進行直播這是推動公開透明的司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2072.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2101.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
而且是落實總統府司改會的這個決議我們這提了這個修正案明定法例審採取原則公開例外不公開事實審原則不公開例外公開另外我們明定說如果法庭的空間無法容納合理人數進行判定的時候法院得以科技設備將開庭的聲音影像傳到適當空間的延伸法庭公開那今天我們特別帶了一份資料來最近台灣民眾黨也做了民調 |
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2103.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2109.978 |
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高達71.7%的台灣民眾支持法庭直播包括 |
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2111.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2139.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
民進黨的民眾啊高達60.8%裡面有30.4%非常支持還算支持的有26.8%不支持的只有33.1%大概是2比1啦就是整體的這個台灣民眾目前有71.7%絕對多數認為應該要推動法庭直播連民進黨的民眾都高達60.8%然後不偏任何政黨的有70.3%看起來是一個公開是一個主流的民意另外從世界上來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2140.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2155.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
全世界七大洲啊除了南極洲之外都有法庭直播這包括不只是英國、加拿大連南非跟印尼還有這個印度都有我相信台灣應該沒有比南非沒有比印尼來的弱火包括鄭文榮、鄭麗詩 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2156.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2176.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在公聽會都特別提出來了他去全世界很多法庭看台灣的法庭真的是落後而且陽光一直沒有照進來連在印尼的法庭都比我們台灣的法庭公開友善所以這次這個修正案非常非常的重要那當然民進黨到現在還是持一個反對的一個意見所以我們今天不只把民調帶過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2178.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2196.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們也呼籲民進黨今天是不是可以比較適度的我們共同來討論看用什麼樣一個方式可以讓這個法案是可以通過的包括你們在提說可能討論時間不夠那我們可以可以在今天這個協商過後到了院會二讀的時候有多點時間彼此可以共同好好來討論我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2197.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2216.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
推動法庭直播也是民進黨很多以前民眾包括蔡英文蔡總統一直要推動的如果大家共同來努力讓陽光射進這個法庭我相信這個不是只有台灣民眾黨不是只有國民黨一般民眾多數民眾絕對多數的這個支持也是民進黨很多改革知識有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2217.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2241.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
包括水泳啊,古早的時尊,我也不認為它應該是直接這個案子,很期待今天可以透過好好的協商,讓這個法庭直播,這一個司法的改革特別是最近,從很多民調都看得出來,民眾對於司法有高度的不信任案甚至高達將近六成的民眾認為說,政治已經干涉到司法,干涉到檢調了,好不好我們共同來努力,讓我們司法可以公開透明謝謝,謝謝張祺凱委員,來請莊瑞雄莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2247.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2271.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其實蔡英文來跟我講,我還是會反對她啦不要以為蔡英文講的就是聖旨啦司法國事會議,它其實也不是做成這樣的一個決議啦如果說在我們法院組織法裡面,你說在法律審裡面你要來做一個公開,這個我沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2272.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2291.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我對40省我就真的有疑慮我就真的有疑慮而且當初司改國是會議裡面到也不是在講說在整個40省的部分在整個行政法院或者高等法院地方法院這些法院裡面他一定要去直播到不是這樣的決議他當年是在講說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2292.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2302.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
從你們的立法理由裡面 立法說明裡面其實也講得很清楚嘛就是大法官、憲法法庭跟最高法院跟最高行政法院召開言辭辯論的時候英語直播這個我肯認喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2304.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2325.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個我沒有意見 這個法律審怎麼樣來規範的一個問題所以我們常常一直在講說法律審原則公開 例外的部分涉及到國安 涉及到有一些可能涉及到隱私 善良風俗的部分那這些你可以去把它做例外的一個禁止那在事實審的部分 我的想法就剛好相反啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2326.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2352.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那剛剛張季凱委員我也看到你一直在講說民意啊 怎麼樣的民意代表多少法院的東西我就最怕民意啊司法如果要重新再倒回去的話我如果不要走到賤地裡面 我來做的書也三十檔啦司法就從來沒有被民眾信任過啦那司法沒有被民眾信任過第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2353.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2380.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
法院裡面的一個組成裡面 還有當事人的構造裡面他就很難去像民意機關 像政治人物 你做得好壞就誰能看得出來我常常在我們司法法治委員會裡面在講啦很多被講說是恐龍法官 恐龍的判決的我常常去講說 他們這樣的一個判決其實是傷害到國民的法律感情可是你如果真的去細究他的整個判決書你仔細去讀它的話 我還真佩服他們咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2383.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2388.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那個邏輯到還剩一貫咧可是就廠長法律很怪啦一貫的邏輯就導出一個民眾沒辦法接受的就很怪我說我們兩個假設我們兩個是對照黃國昌來審我來教你我講民俗就不要講憑書啦講憑書也可以我就要求判你一百萬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2402.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2406.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
要是你賠我一百萬 黃國昌要判你賠我五十萬我會說黃國昌不公平啦 貪污啦 羞辱人質啦 挺你民眾黨的啦因為你怎麼只有判我贏五十萬 張七甲你也一定不爽黃國昌你當我的黨主席 你怎麼沒有挺我 一定被莊瑞雄收買了不然怎麼還會 張七甲還會輸五十萬他怎麼判我們兩個都不滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2429.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2445.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以我的意思就是說這個法律尤其是法院的審判裡面你要把用一般所謂的民意的監督這很麻煩如果都要用民意來看的話那就不用去講三權分立啦或者說我們現在的五權的一個體制啦所以是不是用民意這個可以思考但是那個絕對不是一個絕對那我要講的就是說如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2457.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2471.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
當初的講法做成的是一年內去研議法庭直播的範圍跟條件為什麼我剛會罵你的原因是在什麼地方?你動不動就忽一忽,連討論你也不要討論,你就要政府惡賭 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2473.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2482.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個是多有名的為什麼我上上我記得是我兩個禮拜前我又召開那一場公聽會其實進赴二讀以後沒有案子的時候連公聽會都不能召開是剛好還好翁小玲有一個案子她談到整個那個法官的一個評議的部分因為所謂的透明的問題還卡到一點邊所以我才可以安排那個公聽會那一場公聽你很清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2502.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2504.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是啊 你就講了一個正文榮之詞而已啊哇 你實在是 你沒有注意去看啦我們不用小便啦 那一天叫做一面倒啦但一面倒 他們這樣也不是用多數來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2524.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2543.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果你肯認人家叫做學者專家應該是說他講出來的話他到底合不合理他們反對的合不合理不是他的顏色叫做什麼你剛提出那個民調我也沒有質疑你嘛我只是用另外一個方式跟你講說法院的判決如果都要用民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2545.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2564.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我最擔心的就是法院用民意 要是要民意 法官的組成 法院組織法就把它劃掉啊總統審全台灣最爭議的案件 六都的縣市首長 又給一數的今天都立法院來審 還有縣市議會來審 大家都代表民意啊司法用民意亂了 反而司法常常就是在對抗民意司法追求的是一個獨立審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2575.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2578.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他不應該讓民意來介入啊 會亂去人真的啦 如果要用民意來審喔審到尾巴 尤其是刑事案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2585.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2606.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你們害到你們啦 我要在語重心長跟你講法律省的 不 我再講一次 法律省我真的沒有意見啦那事實省 法律省我沒有意見嘛 這個大家都法律人 那個部分本來就可以討論但是事實省的疑慮的時候 你們沒有澄清我要講的是你們都沒有澄清嘛 涉及到國安理怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2608.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2611.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
當事人 尤其是兩兆 因為你有好多排除嘛 國安當然我知道你們會排除啊那像比如說涉及到善良風俗的問題啊 送導人因為秘密的問題啊你把證人找來的時候 你還沒有開始證言的時候 你怎麼知道他在講些什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2629.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2640.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那你已經公開直播了 公開直播 停停 沒要直播是這樣子嗎所以我的意思是說 大家這些疑慮要澄清 要講清楚不是不能立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2641.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2656.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
哪有不能立法的 立法案哪有不能立法的惡法了不起是被民眾幹掉而已啊立法案被修理而已啊違憲還有憲法法庭啊只是說現在運作比較困難而已啊所以我的意思是說我那一場的公聽會裡面真的也聽到很寶貴的一些反對的意見我們也要把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2661.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2669.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
聽進去,那你去說服他嘛,就把這些反對,我覺得不會啊,你這反對的,你就亂講啊,像那麼多法官,那麼多有實務經驗的人,他們來講的這一些,我倒會覺得,如果要讓他,要讓他,你說要陽光進來,我也贊成啦,我意思是說,這個疑慮我們要怎麼做,這個疑慮是不是, |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2684.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2693.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們立法院有辦法自圓其說 贊成人有辦法自圓其說我保證你張七愷你講沒有啦 我沒跟你騙啦 你們怎麼會辦公室幫你寫一寫 你這個哪叫做對話呢 我的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2708.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2730.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你現在又聽不懂我的話你又聽不懂我的疑慮你又聽不懂事實審的部分你就會涉及到有這些的疑慮我強調的是說我們如果要求法官他要獨立審判的話你要獨立審判的話你用民意進來你說要陽光走進來這個大家聽了民眾都會贊成民眾會贊成但是審判制度的核心是獨立審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2738.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2764.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
公開好事啊台灣走到什麼已經走到什麼這樣的一個階段了哪有可能秘密審判不可能啊只是說你那個公開是要對特定人公開還是對社會大眾公開還是公開的方式你認為那種公開判決書的公開或者說一個實體的空間理論公開你認為是不夠的你一定會去直播那就把這些疑慮來講清楚的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2765.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2766.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝那個不好意思齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2791.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2810.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那個謝謝莊惠琼委員大家也可以感覺到那個主席雖然一開始宣告每個黨團代表每一輪發言以三分鐘的原則但基於我對莊委員的尊重我也是讓莊委員暢所欲言雖然莊委員發言的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2811.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2823.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有時候用我當例子但我也是保持著冷靜客觀的精神不會因為這樣而被冒犯因為以我來講的話你說一個一百萬的案件五十萬要向我收賠這個是已經對我的人格 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2829.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2850.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
構成重大汙辱行情沒有對啦對啦我行情沒這麼差啦我簡單這樣講就好了啦好那第二個事情我也要澄清的事情是說因為今天討論的法院組織法我們在處理的是有關於法庭裡面的錄音錄影可不可以公開播送的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2852.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2877.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
還不涉及到我們要把審判者交由一般的人民來進行民意投票這樣子的問題我們沒有提這個法案因為我怕有時候有一些網友沒有看到法案的內容產生誤會以為我們在修法院組織法是要把審判者交由人民來投票不是這樣子的提案我們現在提案的核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2879.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2899.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
其實是有關於就法庭的錄音錄影可不可以公開播送那公開播送其實有兩種一種是Live的就是所謂的直播那另外一種呢是Delay Live就是實際上面發生的它有發生池葉在外國的國家實踐的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2902.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2918.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
例子其實還蠻多的在法條上面我想要做觀念上面先做這樣子的一個澄清不過第三點也感謝我們莊瑞雄委員因為我覺得大家有不同的立場在民主社會裡面很正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2919.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2938.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那促進對話這個是好事那最起碼我們往前邁了一步嘛剛剛莊委員也表達了站在民主進步黨黨團的立場就法律審的部分他基本上是贊成的那我們現在核心的關鍵就是說事實審的部分原則上是禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2939.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2963.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
例外的時候公開這個例外公開 事實審的例外公開這個例外是不是要把它保留那這個其實就現在我們能夠藉由黨團協商把我們的爭點進一步的集中化來整理爭點我覺得這個黨團協商也是有意義的啦那不曉得說那個志強委員 來 請羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2969.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2993.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我想今天有關於法院組織法的修正我覺得也是一個很好的契機特別是近年來我們司法的公信力就是逐漸的下降司法作為我們今天社會公正的最大的一個屏障如果司法公信力不被信任的話實際上對整個社會來講都是一個非常不利的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2994.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3023.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那大家知道信任基礎有時候就是來自於透明透明到什麼程度那就是兩面刃嘛那各有利弊但是呢我今天還是在講說比方說舉例子我們現在在討論的第一個修正的條文就是比如86條它上面訴訟之辯論跟裁判的宣示因公開法庭刑之但有妨害國家安全公共秩序以及善良風俗之於者至於使法院得決定不予公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3024.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3049.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
其實涉及一個最根本的問題就是這個條文本身它是秉持的一個公開精神希望能夠透過一個公開透明的方式然後讓大家能夠去見證司法的公正但是呢現在大家也知道所謂的公開如果說錄影影像它不能夠透過某種方式來去傳送給社會公眾的時候的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3050.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3066.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
大家就會受地方場域場所的限制雖然說今天我們立法院我們現在現在這個也是在直播當中啊可是我跟你講說我們這個地方我們是公開透明但是抱歉我們不能影像不能夠外傳我只准你到場這邊來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3067.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3092.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
但座位有限你來的話如果人滿的時候你要抽籤要什麼方式來做那我說實在那不就是折損了公開的美意嗎所以換言之我們的司法其實也想要把公開的精神放在這整個包括辯論跟裁判的宣示上那既然是如此的話我們應該再多往前走一步那如果說一開始我們就反認為公開會傷害司法審判獨立的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3094.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3114.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那你不要講說影像的播送你連公開都不該公開啊更何況大家看原始的條文裡面妨害國家安全公共秩序善良風俗本來就可以不公開嘛而且是由法院來決定所以這個部分我覺得算是本身相當的走遠只是說今天民眾黨的提案在這個公開基礎上往前多走一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3115.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3135.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
也就像公開的可及性增加啦就不再是受限這個場域那至於是你要用Live還是Delay Live這都是還可以才討論甚至法院可以決定我看裡面是由法院來決定嘛所以總而言之我覺得我們今天應該是還是怎麼去力促司法更得到人民的信任從這個角度來去出發的話你會覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3137.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3151.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
事實上我們把公開的這個基礎之上讓影像也可以讓社會公眾可以有接近可以接近這些影像的一個真實那我覺得對於法庭的所謂的一個司法的公信力是有幫助的 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3152.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3178.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好 謝謝羅志強委員時間控制得非常精準那意見也表達得非常的透徹非常感謝羅志強委員那因為我剛剛也說了啦因為我們如果協商的時候一個各黨團立場的表達各黨團各自負政治責任這本來在民主國家當中責任政治的精神本來就是如此那我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3180.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3193.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
今天參與協商各個黨團的代表都是民意政治的專家也不勞我贅述那我只是希望說在接下來法案處理上面能夠更有效率一點所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3194.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3217.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
在主席的身份上我試圖的希望能夠把針點能夠更聚焦一點看今天協商能不能夠稍微有一點點進展那在這樣子的情況之下我是不是能夠因為看起來核心的真實條文是第90條的規定因為這是總共有五個條文的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3218.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3242.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那我現在是不是可以先請教一下第一個針對第86條的規定現行法院組織法86條規定訴訟之辯論及裁判的宣示應公開法庭刑之但有妨害國家安全公共秩序或善良風俗之餘者法院的決定不予公開這本來就是現行的條文那台灣民眾黨黨團所提出的是在增加兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3244.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3264.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第二項的規定說前項應公開的程序在法庭空間無法容納合理人數時法院可以以科技設備將開庭的聲音影像傳送至適當的空間的延伸法庭公開刑制那第二項的規定依照我目前的理解在實務上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3264.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3286.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
也有採刑在實務上面也有採刑有的時候法庭比較小那去的人比較多有用延伸法庭那有的時候當然社會矚目的案件即使是延伸法庭都要抽籤即使是延伸法庭都要抽籤特別是在目前法院操作的實務上就實際的本法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3287.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3311.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那法院他們本於他們自己針對法庭空間的指揮權常常把非常多的位置都留給我們司法記者的好朋友這也無可厚非讓司法記者的好朋友他們有比較多的空間跟可能性坐到位置來報導不管他們人來或者是不來因為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3312.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3331.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
參與法庭活動的經驗還蠻多的有的時候看到空空的一堆位子都沒有人坐我也很納悶後來才發現原來是保留給司法記者這我也可以理解司法記者很忙常常法庭進進出出的要報導很多案件但不管怎麼講現行的延伸法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3332.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3354.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
把他的明文化規定在法院組織法當中那同時相關法院組織法的規定來與准用所以我想如果大家允許的話我是不是可以先就沒有爭點的部分來過濾一下針對86條這樣子的修正不曉得水泳你有意見嗎 來請我這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3358.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3381.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
涉及到法院的實務是不是防腐蜜 你如果在問議長審判實務你們應該最清楚嘛 這個也應該你們可以提出一個更好你們的看法你們的看法是怎麼樣 這條給你們來看不然如果是一個公開法庭 它如果是一個延伸法庭的一個概念的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3383.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3401.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
一般立法院會認為沒有什麼啦,但你們實務上你們的看法是什麼,也要尊重,那時候是你們整個,因為涉及到整個訴訟指揮,到最後又是審判長嘛,那你說審判長本來在一個法庭裡面,那後來又變成一個延伸法庭,那對實務每一個範圍裡面,對你們來說有困難嗎,我們也聽聽他們的看法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3407.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3432.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我先跟委員報告一下第二項的規定是說法院得以科技設備傳送我沒有寫因 是得所以顯然就是讓法官因地制宜但沒有關係針對86條增訂第二項第三項的規定現在是不是可以請司法院我們的應該是代理秘書長是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3434.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3436.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
副秘書長是不是好來我們請那個副秘書長過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3442.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3463.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
我們現在就只針對那個86條86條目前現在這樣子的那個規定因為它沒有明定是在那個同法院之內啊所以說操作上還有就是一般人看到這個法條的時候他會跟那個遠距訊問兩個會產生就是會有那個會有疑義啊就譬如說有人爭執以後有人爭執 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3465.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3488.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
就是當事人證人鑑定人甚至於被告可不可以在不同的那個法院內有沒有要求那個延伸法庭甚至於我們現在先不要講90條的這一個那個法庭那個公佈如果說以後有人要求說譬如說在那個高雄地院台北在開庭他要求在那個高雄地院去開了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3491.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3504.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
把這些影像傳播到這邊來的時候那這都是一種變相的又是一種變相的法庭的公播那所以這一條就是說他應該就是沒有明定在同法院內這會是一個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3506.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3527.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
對不起我先插一下我們就把焦點先說因為目前台灣民眾黨黨團所提案是針對當初司法院在討論法院組織法現行已經有延伸法庭這個事實基礎我們先確認現行的延伸法庭是沒有法律基礎的我應該沒說錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3530.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3555.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
現行的延伸法庭沒有法律基礎給他法律基礎應該是一件好事現在只是在法條文字上面你們有意見所以目前的文字如果說將開庭的聲音影像傳送至同法院之延伸法庭公開刑之加上同法院三個字請問司法院可不可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3559.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3570.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
文字上的是同法院內同法院內嗎傳送至同法院內傳送至同法院內之延伸法庭公開刑事 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3571.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3597.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這樣司法院是不是就同意了但是另外一個問題就是說因為其實所謂的那個延伸法庭其實精準講事實上現在目前他所開放的就是旁聽席啊你不可能就是有兩區嘛法庭有兩區我就說啦你們有什麼建議現在就直接講因為包括延伸法庭我都是按照司法院之前討論的文字在你的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3598.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3621.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這不是天上掉下來的吧那現在如果司法院覺得同法院之適當空間可以嗎延伸法庭四個字也不要了那你司法院主要有一個立場嘛你有意見我尊重那你具體文字的修正是什麼今天來協商就要準備好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3621.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3639.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
要不然今天司法院打算協商來講空話嗎86條第二項司法院有沒有具體修正文字現在就可以說了就 呃 適當空間同法院內適當空間之旁聽席啊來記一下齁 那個議事人員記好 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3641.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3658.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
同法院適當空間之旁聽席是嗎同法院內同法院內適當空間之旁聽席是是嗎公開行之公開行之嘛好那個議事人員把它記下來第二個第三項准用的條文有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3660.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3676.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
第三項準用的條文有沒有意見如果有意見請具體指明準用哪一項有意見這部分沒有意見所以86條的部分我們是不是就剛剛依照司法院的修正建議通過可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3681.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3691.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
請問各黨團的代表我們依照86條的規定就依照司法院剛剛文字修正意見通過請問各黨團代表是不是都同意可以齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3697.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3722.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
好 可以喔 好 謝謝那接下來在進入90條核心的條文之前我們來先看一下91條先看一下91條的規定91條目前現行法的規定有妨礙法庭秩序或其他不當行為審判長可以禁止其進入法庭或命其退出法庭必要時可以命勘管制必停時 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3724.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3739.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這是第一項的規定那台灣民眾黨所提出的修正建議各個委員 司法院手上應該都有書面我們來看一下法庭開庭時 應保持肅靜不得有大聲交談鼓掌 吸菸 飲食 食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3740.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3760.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
攝影錄音錄影及其他妨礙法庭秩序或不當行為那第二個違反前項規定審判長可以命其停止該行為禁止其進入法庭或命其退出法庭必要時可以看管至開庭時其以攝影錄音錄影審判長得命其消除 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3762.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3775.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
攝影錄音錄影之內容前項處分不得聲明不符前三項的規定與審判長在法庭外執行職務時準用之針對九十一條的修正請問民主進步黨立法院黨團有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3796.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3809.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
先讓他們討論一下,台灣民眾黨黨團是你們提案的,所以你們贊成嗎?中國國民黨對於這樣的條文修正,不曉得羅委員?羅委員贊成嗎?那我們讓民主進步黨黨團的代表商量一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3814.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3831.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
主席現在講的是第一 91條第一項嘛是 其實有1 2 3項其實都念完啦 因為水泓你看一下你就知道了第一 他本來的第一項是把法律要件跟法律效果寫在一起我現在的寫法是第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3832.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3845.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
寫你不可以做什麼事情然後呢 你如果做了什麼事情你做了那些事情可以發生什麼訴訟法上的效果寫在第二項也就是把現行的規定更具體化明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3848.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3868.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
然後給法官在指揮訴訟的時候更清楚的法律授權基礎我是覺得第一項有一點畫蛇添足啦那個有妨礙法庭秩序或其他不當行為其實是很概括啦你現在是說把距離化就是說說話太大聲啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3870.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3884.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
怕補愛、吃婚禮、飲食這些其實都是在妨礙到整個法庭的秩序啦很明顯那也不用用到不當心話沒有啦 水泓我幫你報告一下啦這也是當初司法院自己的條文啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3886.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3901.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我就不喜歡獵人之美嘛我意思是說對我來講這個真的是話捨天但是你要注意喔那個莊委員我跟您報告一下現在錄音錄語它的法律效果審判長可以把它除去掉在現行的條文裡沒有明文喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3903.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3932.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
你有看到嗎?那個是核心喔就是說你不可以偷入啦我如果抓到你偷入,我可以叫你把它給消除掉這個有法律授權不是規範更清楚嗎?明確化齁,把這幾樣放進來就代表說沒有啦,我老實講啦這個是給法官授權,如果司法院等一下表態不要我可以代表台灣民眾黨黨團直接說明這一條就不予修正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3934.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3956.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這條是盲腸啦 那看你司法院這邊那就看司法院要不要啊那主席我可以請問一下民眾議員因為寫法的版本是你們寫的九十一條第一項你們想要明文表示這些行為你們認為是所謂不恰當嘛那可是剛剛瑞雄委員提醒是說如果比較廣泛性的寫法叫做妨礙法庭秩序者或其他不當行為我認為可不可以把第一項如果你們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3958.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3960.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我跟陳委員報告一下法律人在寫條文的時候絕對不會像出現剛剛你那種寫法啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3978.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3983.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
沒有 我的寫法是根據原來的版本不好意思 請你尊重主席的會議主持好不好你要問問題 我同意讓你問問題那我現在就要回答你的問題那你總要讓我回答完嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3994.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4012.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我就老實的跟你講法律人不會這樣寫條文第一個寫一個很抽象的概括第二項的法律效果突然出現說如果有攝影錄音錄影可以叫它消除你如果有第二項的法律效果第一項就要把它寫進去要不然這個條文的結構看起來就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4013.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4035.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
非常非常的怪異沒有關係我們尊重司法院的意見啦我剛也說了如果司法院認為這個是盲腸沒有必要要不予修正台灣民眾黨黨團也可以同意來請司法院表達看法主席如果可以就那個討論順序的話我們覺得比較不好意思現在是我在主持會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4037.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4056.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我要先說真點你是來列席的我給你機會表達意見現在不是司法院在主持會議請司法院列席的代表尊重我的會議主持針對91條的修正請問司法院是同意還是反對認為沒有必要請司法院表達看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4058.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4076.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
列的話它是會比較周延那但是這邊所謂那個攝影的話就是我剛說了就是說因為你前面那個地方開放那種那個法庭可不可以那個攝影誰來攝影那如果說這邊的話就是比較周延的話它應該是禁止的是自行攝影啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4079.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4103.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那我具體的講不得有大聲交談鼓掌吸菸飲食物品自行攝影錄音錄影及其他妨礙法庭秩序或不當行為也就是在攝影前面加自行兩個字司法院的立場是不是這樣那加自行這兩個字請問台灣民眾黨黨團是否同意同意請問盧委員是否同意請問莊委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4111.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4123.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以我們91條請議事人員記好91條修正的條文依照司法院的建議在攝影前面加上字型兩個字請問第二項的規定請問司法院同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4133.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4156.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個應該是必要時得命看管制必停時吧好 那個是別制 那個把它改成必停時那除了這個以外 司法院文字還有沒有其他的意見文字沒有文字沒有嘛 好 那第三項 第四項的規定有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4160.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4186.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
也沒有意見嘛好那所以針對第九十一條的規定我們就依照司法院修正建議的條文就依照司法院修正建議的條文通過好來我們再來看九十三條的規定請問司法院有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4195.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4207.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那只是配合前面的修正啊93條的規定請問司法院有沒有意見意見好 93條的意見 照台灣民眾黨黨團提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4216.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4238.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
好那我們現在因為現在就是施行的日期第115條嘛以及大家所增值核心的條文第90條的規定那第90條的規定我們就一項來處理就一項來處理第一項的部分90條的規定第一項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4240.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4266.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
法院開庭時處法律另有規定外應語錄音必要時得語錄影針對第一項的規定因為本來的規定我們要提升規範密度把它移到我們剛剛已經通過了第九十一條的規定了那現在針對九十條台灣民眾黨立法所提出來的九十條的第一項請問司法院有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4269.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4271.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
法律省原則上我們應以適當的方式公開播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4286.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4309.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
但有妨礙國家安全公共秩序善良風俗或造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害之餘者可以裁定不予公開播送那這個部分剛剛三個黨團似乎是有共識了因為莊委員也代表民進黨黨團就法律省的部分沒有意見那就第二項的部分請問司法院有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4312.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4333.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
像那個主席跟各位委員報告這部分司法院還是有意見的因為就是說法律省他應該是就是沒有問題的應該是限於那個法律爭議啊就是就像現在我們的那個先訴法也有那個公開可是現在目前條文的設計他是整個那個概括的那個開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4335.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4357.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那所以就是在過去我們開了這麼多次的那種法規諮詢會就是這些專家學者來就是提供了很多寶貴就是國外法上還有很多的那個就是最大的疑義還是在於說對於二次濫用在現行的這個草案裡面他完全沒有去做管制的相對的那個配套啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4358.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4376.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那特別是我國目前對於這個數位管制的那個傳播呢是沒有那個管制機制的就是包括那個網際網路內容的管理還有數位平台的問責到現在都還沒有那個見證對不起我停一下因為你當你講的話連我都聽不懂的時候我就必須要打斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4377.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4398.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你說我國現在關於數位網際網路都沒有管制就所何止?可不可以具體一點?我聽不懂啊你的意思是說譬如啦像現在我們在協商的時候是全程公開直播嘛是所以司法院的意思是說連我們這種直播都要數位網際網路要管制嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4399.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4406.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
是這個意思嗎所以你現在就不是抽象的指網際網絡有沒有管制的問題嗎你現在說的是只有司法權嗎所以跟一般的網際網絡沒有關係嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4417.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4446.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為我怕到時候這個公開直播播送出去一直沒有講清楚會引發很大的誤會喔所以你們所講的是涉及到司法權的網際網絡的內容要限制是這樣嗎你的立場是什麼 理由是什麼要講清楚要不然你講抽象的東西如果連我都聽不懂的話我相信現在在看直播的人沒有人聽得懂您就所何止請說得更具體一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4447.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4468.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
就是因為這些公播即使是法律省它公播出去的影像一出去之後就沒辦法收回來了那現在就是可是這是一個司法權的一個運作就是說如果有人就是把它片斷的就是把它二次那個去再去不到那個使用的時候我目前那個草案跟目前我先停一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4469.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4491.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
目前憲法法庭的直播針對你剛剛所講的片段的二次的使用司法院頒布了什麼管制辦法剛剛你講的嘛因為如果問題的焦點是在於說所謂的二次使用那現在憲法法庭的引帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4492.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4510.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
二次使用的很多啊各大新聞媒體網路上面的YouTube內容非常的多啊如果有人變造偽造裡面的內容那當然他要負法律責任嘛那沒有變造偽造裡面的內容針對你剛剛所講的涉及司法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4511.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4522.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
公開播送二次使用針對憲法法庭目前的公開播送請問司法院訂了什麼樣子的規範可以讓本院在修這條的時候作為參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4527.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4554.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那個在有關於憲法法庭現在目前公佈出去的這些東西就是說有被濫用的時候不管制這個問題要不要檢討這本來就是一個可以檢討的先提一下喔所以你是承認就憲法法庭的部分剛剛你所說的司法權已經公開播送出去二次使用的管制司法院也承認目前司法院針對這個所謂的二次使用等等你們自己也沒有任何的規範嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4557.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4560.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
剛剛你說的就是這個意思嗎也沒有任何的規範嗎 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4562.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4587.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
目前是沒有好 目前沒有這樣的規範那顯然這個是一個真的議題還是一個假的議題我相信每個立法委員跟台灣每一個公民大家都可以理解剛剛你們所提出來的argument它的有效性的設成範圍幾乎是趨近於零我講的比較文言一點但我相信大家都聽得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4588.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4607.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
針對法律審的部分 司法院還有什麼其他的意見因為目前那個法律審的辯論裡面他其實不是只有單純的那個法律爭議的問題的辯論他有很多像那個死刑辯論裡面因為像憲判8也說了就是有關於那個死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4608.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4636.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
他要經過在第三審要經過那個辯論那所以說這一些那個辯論裡面他其實會有很多那個事實認定還有一些那個個資的這一些那個情況那所以就是說這個立法他並不是由個案去審酌而是採了一個那個原則公開這個立法那但是在但書的部分他排除範圍其實是非常少的所以這個部分我們認為是這個就但書的部分啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4637.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4663.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
司法院有主張要怎麼樣擴張嗎因為你剛剛所講的是你擔心但書的部分嘛剛剛你講的是死刑辯論可能會牽涉到事實可能會牽涉到隱私嘛講了一堆可能嘛上一次司法院來找我的時候我有公開請教過你們嘛最高法院一年行多少件延遲辯論2024年行了多少件延遲辯論 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4666.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4692.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
請司法院回答最高法院2024年行了多少延遲辯論最高法院應該是十件左右十件嘛一年十件一年十件的延遲辯論我想應該當然啦很多人民會很好奇很多人民會很好奇很多法律人甚至會更好奇依照民事訴訟法474條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4696.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4723.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
第三審上訴原則上陰形言詞辯論不必要者不在此限大家不懂的事情是立法者已經告訴我國最高法院第三審民事訴訟陰形言詞辯論但不必要者不在此限但我們的最高法院是把立法者講的話當耳邊風因為對最高法院來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4724.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4750.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
每一年兩三千件的案子全部都是單書全部都不必要原則上因行延遲辯論的一年不到十件那當然我們的立法院自己也要檢討為什麼立法者在2003年的時候建構所謂金字塔型的訴訟制度的修法當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4752.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4776.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
要求第三審因行延遲辯論我們最高法院的法官竟然可以無視於立法院的屆命我就是不開延遲辯論請問你要怎麼樣那當然這個是本院要重新去檢討的事項那但是我們今天回到問題的真點我們現在針對90條的項法律審 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4781.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4809.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
有關於錄音錄影的公開播送每一年民情案件加起來十件十件那我想對於最高法院所會造成的負擔應該是如果要把這個稱為負擔恐怕都有點太沉重那沒有關係對於最高法院的負擔恐怕是相當輕微的 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4811.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4830.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那現在呢 司法院是認為說 但書的規定範圍太窄因為我有但書例外的規定嘛涉及到國家安全公共秩序善良風俗或造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害之餘可以裁定不要公開播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4831.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4857.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那我要提醒司法院的事情是請對照法院組織法86條的規定86條在公開主義跟例外的不公開主義的時候在例外不公開主義是用三個非常概括的事由授權法院得不刑公開審理包括了國家安全、公共秩序、善良風俗只有這三個喔這三個要件都非常的抽象喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4858.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4885.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好那回到我們這邊90條第二項但書的規定90條第二項但書的規定妨礙國家安全公共秩序善良風俗這個不行公開審理的當然就不適合公開播送那進一步考慮到會造成個人生命身體隱私或營業秘密重大損害可以裁定不公開那司法院如果認為90條第二項的但書設成範圍還是太窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4888.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4890.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
請問司法院有沒有什麼具體的建議 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4895.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4918.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那個委員就那個就那個二次濫用部分那個委員那邊剛主席那邊已經有做了就是說我剛二次濫用已經說過了嘛你們剛剛自己都承認你們針對憲法法庭公開播送的二次濫用目前司法院的規範是零嗎可是憲法法庭他所辯論的是屬於憲政層次的那個問題那個就是說他需要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4919.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4944.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
對啊那個憲法法庭在進行死刑違不違憲的辯論的時候我也有看啊你確定裡面都只有抽象的法律問題沒有個案嗎你如果要欺騙一般的社會大眾大家沒看過你或許可以這樣講我會建議司法院的官員回去看一下憲法法庭死刑辯論的時候有沒有講到個案沒有講到個案他們在審什麼當然有講到個案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4947.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4972.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
就是這些人他們提起憲法訴願進一步提升到法規範審查全部都克服到個案怎麼會沒有個案憲法法庭在進行死刑違不違憲的辯論的時候怎麼會沒有提到個案整場延遲辯論我都仔細聆聽過了這樣子的區別恐怕不是一個有效性的區別 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4974.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5002.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以就單書的部分司法院有沒有意見司法院是認為說比較適當的他是應該是就是從那個立法例不是一剛開始的時候原則用概括的全部通通都開放而是應該就是說在一定的條件底下由那個法院就個案去審酌那這個也是當時我們在那個法規諮詢會的時候大部分專家的意見那那個司法院有建議的條文嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5009.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5023.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
司法院有建議的條文嗎請回答司法院有建議的條文嗎不好意思主席在請教司法院副秘書長請問司法院有建議的條文嗎有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5026.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5052.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
司法院第一個立場是希望不要訂我瞭解先停一下啦司法院的立場我瞭解但是因為剛剛副秘書長跟大家講說你們希望是在一定的前提要件下再公開所以我再進一步的請教你你剛剛所表達的立場你們有沒有建議的條文沒有就沒有沒有關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5053.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5075.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我沒有逼你一定要申條文出來因為現在全部都在給你們機會讓你們拿條文出來所以司法院有沒有建議的條文沒有 你就說我反對就好了主席 這條我這樣我這樣看 話不要這樣用這種片面式 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5076.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5096.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我在講法律的部分但現在司法院講的是沒有那種單純法律你構成要件事實要含設到法律到底有沒有構成的時候一定會去講到事實啦這個司法院的擔憂我知道可是呢我倒會覺得啦這個司法院這邊也考慮看看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5097.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5120.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為畢竟修正的條文裡面是在跟你講說這個如果說這個一個案件細數到最高法院去的時候如果是在一個法律審的時候你涉及到有妨礙國家安全、公共秩序、善良風俗或造成個人生命身體隱私、隱厭秘密重大損害治癒者你本來就可以裁定不予公開的做一個播送 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5121.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5146.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那一個案子你假設說你受命拿到這個案子以後你不可能說整個事實都不知道嘛你這個案子到底會不會涉及到這個涵澀的過程有沒有事實的公開會影響到營業秘密或者影響到國家安全如果會的話其實在法院這一關馬上就把它給撥掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5147.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5175.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我是這樣看私律到底有沒有周延我就就較於我們的司法院啊不然我的立場很一致啊立場很一致啊你單純法律審我沒有意見嘛可是問題是說法律跟事實審一定混淆在一起嘛沒有一個案件裡面只在講法律的嘛一定是某一個行為某一個事實要含涉到立法者所規定的過程要件裡面到底有沒有該當嘛該當裡面就該判什麼就是什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5175.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5185.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以這個過程裡面會涉及到事實那這個事實裡面到底會不會有國家安全啊有沒有營業秘密啊或者是有人格權啊這一些我是認為啦我是認為啦我就比較認為說因為如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5187.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5207.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
法官看到這樣的情況你本來就可以裁定不允許啦應該就有一個防避或者說踩煞車的權利還是指揮訴訟還是在法官的手上啊我不知道這樣設計了針對法律省的部分我們司法院的疑慮還是甚麼啦聽聽看那個莊委員的請教不曉得司法院有沒有要回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5220.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5245.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為這個地方他是用那個但書排除可是這邊都還限於像隱私還有那個秘密有沒有他還要在那個營業的秘密啊只限於營業秘密而且要造成重大那個損害所以說這個但書限的那個條件非常的那個窄所以我才一直問你們啊你但書覺得太窄你有沒有建議的條文要拉寬一點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5246.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5257.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我主席所表達的善意是一而再再而三沒有關係啦讓司法院回去思考一下今天在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5259.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5282.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
包括了民進黨黨團的代表莊惠玄委員雖然我跟他意見不太一樣有的時候他也常常討侃我但是莊委員的意見我也是很尊重他也都表達了就法律省他基本上面的看法但我們也是很善意如果這樣的但書司法院覺得還是過載看要不要回去考慮一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5283.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5304.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
該不要回去考慮一下提出你們建議修正的條文因為我必須要老實說第90條的部分各個黨派的立法委員有各個黨派不同的政治立場我們都尊重在立法院本來就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5306.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5331.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
在立法院本來就這樣很少有什麼條文是大家都點頭通過的因為有的時候我們點頭通過的東西到法院實際上面操作變怎麼樣有的時候也不是立法者預測的到像我們通過的有關於打詐的法案打詐的法案大概我們也很難預想到我們的大法庭竟然會解釋成那個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5333.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5350.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那幾次成那個樣子就搞得立法院很累現在打詐的法案又要重新的在推動修無法因為可能當初在立法的過程當中三個黨團大家都同意結果到法院去解釋的時候造成縱放輕重 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5352.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5370.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這些詐騙集團的法律後果大家看到大法庭的裁定看了也都很傻眼那只能逼著我們的立法者要更辛苦一點再重新的再修一次法律但這個都沒有關係這個都是過程今天針對這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5372.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5398.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們在一個公開透明的情況之下來進行直播各個黨團的代表都充分的表達大家的看法那都各自為自己的立場來加以負責任那但是也不是完全沒有收穫因為我們其中限制的標點是第一個第90條是不可能有共識那因為最後一條跟90條是連動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5399.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5424.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以最後一條也不會有共識那但是最起碼五條裡面我們有三條是有共識的那對於這樣子的一個協商代表了他還是存在他的意義那所以是不是請那個議事同仁把那個協商的結論可以印出來主席先宣告一下第一個第86條第91條均照協商內容通過如復見 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5428.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5447.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
第二個第90條及第115條均保留送院會處理第三個第93條照案通過如果大家都同意的話是不是可以請各黨團的代表把協商的結論稍微簽一下謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5478.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5484.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
市長那個協商結論你看一下,我協商結論都照你的意思出力 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5535.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5537.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
哈囉哈囉是不是都簽完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5564.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5588.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
沒有啦,你們可以發通知給院長,我沒意見,我完全按照議事規則啦你們可以...你們民進黨東團可以發請求給院長,這個是你們的權利嘛,我沒意見啦可是你這邊簽希望我們直接送院會處理?這個是我主席可以決定的事情,對那你們可以發函請院長協商,立法院職權刑事法本來就這樣規定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5600.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5621.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
院長協商依照立法院職權刑事法怎麼規定各位大委員看一下條文就知道了可以了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5624.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5630.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
沒有關係啊,都尊重好來把東西給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5657.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5664.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
你們的民進黨我說不知道,老科沒錢就沒剩沒有啦,我很小閒的,我能騎腳的錢就剩啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5673.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5698.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
好來謝謝喔那我們今天的協商非常感動有協商結論第86條90條均照協商內容通過如復見第90條及115條均保留送院會處理第93條照案通過好我們今天的協商非常感謝各位黨團的代表司法院以及法務部列席的官員們非常感謝大家的參與我們今天的協商到此結束謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5702.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5708.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
響鐘 |