| IVOD_ID |
16788 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16788 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-26T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-26T16:59:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:29:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e60931de57f1aa369b5fa2f296a93534418e1797692e3a0de65b12d1d734c84d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
三、審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
四、審查委員王育敏等24人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
五、審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
六、審查委員林淑芬等22人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
七、審查委員劉建國等19人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
【第三案，如經復議則不予審查；第四至七案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【逐條討論】
【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 16:59:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
357.346 |
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357.428 |
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谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1829.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1847.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們現在繼續開會本會議議程為第一繼續審查行政案函請審議委員林月琴等21人分別凝聚全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等兩案第二審查委員邱振軍等18人委員王玉敏等24人委員徐宇辰等18人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1847.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1874.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
委員林淑穎等22人、委員劉靜果等19人、胡敏玲拒絕民間安保險資料管理條例草案等5案那現在來介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位是蘇清泉、蘇昭緯好,再來是陳昭之、陳委員林月琴、林委員王振旭、王委員好,衛務部部長邱太元 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1876.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1892.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
還有我們健保署我們石崇陽市署長社會保險師代理市長陳真慧華規會參事陳信成董事處處長李秋晏資訊處副處長王美珠醫事師專門委員郭威中還有個人資料保護委員會籌備處法治事務組組長林育嘉 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1905.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1930.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
數位發展部華智處專門委員陳明宏謝謝資東安全署組長趙由靜謝謝華國部參事汪南君教育部高等教育師專門委員吳志維還有技術及職業教育師課長鄭淑珍國家科學及技術委員會生命科學研究發展處副組長徐均儀謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1934.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1934.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
抱歉抱歉謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1940.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1968.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 先做一下說明本委員會在114年6月9日第16次委員會議已就行政院及委員聯席等21條提案主條討論至第13條那審查結果既有第一條第三條至第11條先行保留那本委員會有再加委員邱振軍等委員王玉敏等委員徐宇峥等委員林淑雯等及本席等共5個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1969.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1997.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
與上述兩案並案審查本次交付之提案僅進行提案說明我們就不令做懸打齁那現在來請這個提案的委員說明提案要辭這些提案齁好我們修正等一下修正等一下我等一下部長這邊還要再補充報告啦報告完之後你要再處理下去齁謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2001.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2005.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那我現在是不是就請部長來做補充說明好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2019.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2047.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會委員會第十八次全體委員會議審查行政院委員行政院委員林蕾琴等二十一人委員邱振金等十八人委員王以明等二十四人委員徐宇貞等十八人委員林淑芬等二十二人委員劉建國等十九人擬計全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等七案本部呈要列席報告請就 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2047.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2069.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
各委員提案版本提出報告 敬請不定指教一 各委員提案版本 貴委員會於114年6月9日已就行政院及委員林立勤等21人提案並同委員王正旭、王玉敏、林淑芬、劉建國、陳高芝、盧瑄一等6人所提修正動議主條討論制草案第13條 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2070.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2095.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
通過條文三條,保留條文十條,當該委員就本條例提案新增五案本部意見說明如下,見請考量。1.草案第一條,委員徐益臻等18人版本,有關徐益臻等委員建議納入人工智慧應用之條文共九條,考量人工智慧屬資料利用方式之一,建議回歸人工智慧基本法處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2097.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2115.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
2.草案第三條及第六條,委員邱振金等18人版本,健保資料假名化改為去識別化,因去識別化,細指依資料加工程度之高低,區分為匿名化、假名化兩種,如採匿名化資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2116.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2133.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
加工後切斷與特定主體的連結,建議維持硯板3.草案第4條、第4條、第5條委員邱振金等18人、委員林淑芬等22人、委員劉建國等19人版本客人資料保護委員會為知議會當然呈言,將以授權辦法納入,並參採委員意見納入並有團體為知議會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2143.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2156.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
4.草案第6條委員王一鳴等24人、委員林時溫等22人版本有關主管機關指派副首長兼任資料保護長及應會同事為發展主管機關考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2158.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2184.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
資料庫應各執法修正條文以增訂公務機關應設各執保護長及依治安法規定應設治安長健保資料保護亦應捐照辦理五草案第七條委員王毓民等24人版本有關應會同事會發展主管機關考核受託機構將以授權辦法嚴定六 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2185.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2206.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
草案第八條及第九條委員習宇峥等18人版本有關健保資料不得用於商業保險就業審查及個人化行銷之目的及境外機構法人研究機單位等餘例不得申請因案本已定明申請目的限制須具有特別重要公義用本條例為國內法是規範境內機關購 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2211.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2238.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
學校等且申請者不得為特定目的外利用計畫以外之利用並有罰則建議維持願辦7.草案第10條委員習宇峻等18人委員林子文等22人版本有關刪除行政法人可再討論另應用大量資料之管理規範及應檢討必要性分析報告將以授權辦法嚴定8. |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2240.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2247.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
草案第11條委員臨時運動22人版本有關審查會成員參裁委員建議討論9. |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2247.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2261.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
草案第13條委員習主任等18人版本增訂嚴禁拍照、錄音及使用聯網設備避免健保資料遭非法複製或外洩將以授權辦法嚴定10. |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2263.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2276.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
草案第14條委員民事分等22人版本應公開健保資料庫運用狀況研究結果等資訊參查委員建議增訂11.草案第15條委員細針等18人版本有關明確規範回饋金提撥10%並列年度報告受立案監督將以授權辦法原定 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2287.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2304.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
12.草案第17條,委員王一鳴的24人、委員林思溫等22人版本,有關當事人與保險人締結健保契約時應載明,並徵求當事人同意。因健保為強制性社會保險與商保需締結契約不同。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2305.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2321.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
健保開辦以上事件如再逐一全面實屬自愛難行令保障當事人於本條例生效後一定期間得選擇其資料是否提供目的外利用建議嚴定一定期間讓民眾選擇適合退出方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2324.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2351.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
參採委員建議討論13.草案第19條委員邱振金等18人、委員林淳等22人版本條文不納入為維護國家安全應參考國法例對例外情況之規範如過資法、電信法等均有類級建議維持原版令第一款文字修正可再討論14.草案第21條委員習以臻等18人版本徵定妨害資料系統之行為人為 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2353.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2361.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
惡務部或委外機構人員時加重其罰則,因本條處罰對象為任何人,建議維持原版。15. |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2361.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2373.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
草案第二十三條,原王以明的二十四人,原習以正等十八人版本增訂,以取得資證保資料,應予銷毀,因申請者僅能吸出統計結果,無需銷毀。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2375.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2396.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
另徵令重複違反前項規定者永久限制其申請資料之權利原版已定名按次處罰機構建議維持原版結與以上緊究大院委員提案之本部意見進行報導上請委員繼續支持本部結束通過本條例立法在此敬請謝神 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2400.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2420.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好 謝謝部長的補充報告那有關本市會議各項書面資料均會列入紀錄刊登公報那現在我們要繼續來審查全體健康保護險資料管理條例草案等七案那其中有這個五個提案的版本為院會新增交付那提案條文內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2421.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2430.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
經理發入這個條文的對照表以便來做審查年同新收的這個修正動議那我們就不再宣讀列入記錄請問委員會有沒有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2436.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2443.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有 好 謝謝那我們就 上次審到13條那我們就接續從第14條來繼續審查以這個行政院提案條次為準進行討論那每個條文我們還是先請行政單位來做這個說明接著會再請委員來表示意見好 陳昭志委員 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2459.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2464.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我想先跟教委報告一下因為今天也有一些再修正動議是有涉及之前討論過的條文那我之前在版本就是說之前我們在判院版本機關認為放入個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2474.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2485.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
保護委員會因為那個部分我都用保留的方式那有摯愛難行部分所以我也根據這個部分才去進行相應的修正那而且同時我也還是要符合憲法的判決所以我才提出這個修正動議案所以我是不是說請 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2492.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2507.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
趙偉了解說我們今天是從頭看過一遍因為別人也有提出來從第一條的改變還是說如果都不動的話那就12條13條因為我們覺得因為因應我的再修正東西要稍微微調一些東西那如果不處理的話就很不好意思可能還是我還是會採取保留態度就跟趙偉說明一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2511.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2533.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 謝謝陳委員的提醒 基本上不會不處理因為我們是從第一案審到第13案那這中間有保留幾條 包含很多是你提出來的部分的保留那我們從10條審 審到27條完成之後等於是第一輪我們會再回到第二輪到時候就會處理到之前保留的相關的條文 這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2535.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2564.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這樣好不好你也一定處理得對你放心嘛 不可能沒處理啦好 謝謝所以你的因為我看你有幾個條文基本上都有修正都會再提修正動議嘛對不對有很多是這樣所以你的修正動議要就是說以再修正動議為主對 以再修正動議因為那天大家覺得有這樣我又回去我們又回去再演繹一次就是說提出我覺得比較可行的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2565.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2587.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 沒關係好 等一下主席要審麻煩就今天用再修任動議的部分好沒關係好謝謝好那我們現在就請各位委員參照這個衛福部有再提供這樣的一個對照版本給各位做參考那我們現在來進行行政院第十四條的條文審查那對應的委員有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2593.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2611.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對不對 第10條嘛 對堆穩委有林業勤委員等21人邱振興委員 王一鳴委員那個等我就不再念了徐政委員 林淑敏還有林靜國委員那這個修正動議的部分有這個王振旭委員還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2614.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2629.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
劉建源委員的修正動議還有這個李淑儀委員的修正動議還有陳昭樹委員的修正動議還有王志勛委員的修正動議好那我們就一併來做來審查請衛務部就各位委員及其他請衛務部來先做說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2639.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2665.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
各位委員大家好行政機關報告第14條行政院行政院的院版條文內容我再唸一次第11條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所得結果不得含有可識別個人身份資料前項利用結果申請者不得為第11條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2667.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2680.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
及第二項經核准特定目的外利用計劃以外之利用申請者於特定目的外利用計劃執行完畢後應將其利用結果報告提供於 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2682.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2699.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主管機關或保險人那林月琴的版本林月琴委員的版本有提到多增加了一項是特別要指資料的使用必須要經過被保險人事前同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2700.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2717.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
之外呢另外應該要特定目的外利用健保資料的使用應及時告知被保險人該資料去使用方式目的期間申請人及拒絕提供之方法那針對林月群委員的版本呢行政機關補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2719.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2744.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
委員所提到的要通知當事人這應該要通知資料的當事人這個部分行政機關的意見是我們會在後面的條文予以說明所以這裡我就是先保留希望委員可以讓我們採用14條的版本因為要讓民眾知道這件事情我們會有一個公開的訊息去說明並且讓民眾可以有選擇退出的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2748.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2776.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那接下來是林淑芬跟王正旭兩位委員提的版本他都有提到多增加了一項就是林淑芬委員的版本是希望能夠應該要公開對於申請利用應該公開核准案件數與清澈以及利用結果報告王正旭委員提到的是應定期公布使用健保資料之目的外利用情形及其他資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2778.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2797.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那這裡行政機關的意見是原來我們第14條的重點是在申請者使用健保資料統計分析完以後的利用結果我們希望他可以提供給主管機關或被保險人而且他不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2797.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2809.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
裡面的資料不可以含有可識別的個人身份資料至於幾位委員所提到的應該要公開的資訊行政機關現在說明就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2811.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2839.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們認為可以增加第四項可以增加第四項也就是行政院院版的文字呢再增第四項的文字可以參考王正旭委員所提的我再念一次我們增加第四項是主管機關及保險人應定其公開使用健保資料之目的外利用情形及相關資訊那我們建議寫這樣的文字是因為我們寫這樣的文字會 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2841.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2862.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
會比較寬那個淑芬委員所提的他就有提到說核准案件數與清澈及利用結果報告那我們寫的是公開使用健保資料目的外利用情形那這個部分我們會把淑芬委員裡面要求要公開這些我們都會公開那我們還會增加其他的相關資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2864.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2892.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
以上說明現在我再補充現在的那個清澈其實在衛福部的網站裡面都看得到都看得到以上補充好這個衛福部表示意見之後就請各位委員來表示意見那螢幕上都會有衛福部提供了相關的一些文字的一些修正建立的修正那等下也會再發說明資料給各個各個別委員來做參考好那來好請林署委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2896.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2914.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
最後一項我不太同意因為相關情形跟這個相關資訊案情形這樣字眼太抽象那我們建議我們的版本保留那唯恐說有這個漏掉的所以我們可以同意在我們的版本後面請大家是不是支持你 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2916.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2924.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
利用了這些這個健保資料作為目的外使用而且這一些所謂的行政法人然後醫療機構學術機構大學等等這一些範疇其實很廣義的很寬廣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2933.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2961.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
大家都可以來那你到底是有沒有真正的去運用到真正的學術研究之上或必要研究之上或是腐爛的在要資料我覺得這種狀況就是透過透明公開然後讓民眾也有知情權然後你把這些東西都給人民也一起看所以幫政府一起大家一起共同來把關我覺得這樣的東西就很簡單就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2964.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2987.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個機制要保留那重點就是說你到底核准了政府你到底核准了建樹有沒有腐爛你的清澈到底是什麼極力用結果報告而要建置一個可能專網頁上的一個入口或是一個一看就明瞭的專區然後讓我們可以進去裡面看那後面再加上說 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2989.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3007.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
如果在我們的版本是說應該公開核准件數清澈及利用結果報告及相關資訊我覺得及相關資訊這樣子才是對的否則什麼叫情形那你今天說你們在現在在其他地方已經有公開了未來你也可以不公開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3008.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3030.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
唯有法律明定上去我們才會相信這是真的會被確保的人民的知情權和透明度是被確保的所以我是不是想說請大家支持在我們的版本的最後一項是比較清楚的那最後再加上衛福部的版本就是集相關資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3034.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3052.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
不能夠直接就用衛福部的版本因為那個講紫色的概念不清不楚那隨便衛福部要公開什麼這樣的太抽象這樣子的話未來知情權會被打折他也可以不公開我們版本所要的那些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3054.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3082.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主席我這邊是不是補充一下那個因為剛剛我想這個林淑芬委員的這個建議的條文我們可以接受而且我們剛剛提的沒有去Quote這是第十一條第一項所以我是建議說是不是可以以林淑芬委員的版本略修就是新增最後那一跟行政院版本不同的是第四項主管機關或保險人 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3084.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3110.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對於依第十一條第一項申請利用應公開核准案件數頓點清澈頓點利用結果報告及其他相關資訊是不是可以用這樣來修正那因為其他委員的版本沒有去Quote是要第十一條第一項會變成所有的目的外利用都要公開但是我們有涉及一些是司法檢調 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3111.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3135.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
第10條就是行政院版本第10條的目的外利用那個是其他公務機關依相關職權來申請目的外利用那那些有些是不適合公開所以這邊應該公開的是屬於第11條就是由這個政府機關也好或學校法人等等來申請利用的的結果那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3138.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3158.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
會請像是可以把這個公開的部分呢是聚焦在第十一條第一項的申請利用那公開的事項讓他更明確化我們可以支持這個林淑芬委員的這個版本那只是後面再加上一個其他相關資訊讓他有點彈性以上的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3161.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3184.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
差異應該有三項,第一個是林委員是議第十一條的第一項,對不對?但是第二個差異是你們原本是,你們是要定期啦,應定期啦林委員這邊是沒有定期喔那第三個就是其他的這個相關資訊啦所以各位來,請王振旭委員,來麥克風給王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3187.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3211.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
謝謝主席 我想剛剛林委員講得很清楚那署長也做補充說明那代理市長那邊也針對於我提出來的臨時動議裡面在第四項有關於主管機關及保險人應定期公開或公佈使用健保資料之目的以外利用情形及其他相關資訊那我們也在立法說明裡面把這個需求為什麼會納進來的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3213.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3231.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那根據剛剛我們討論的結果如果要把在第四項裡面把第十一條第一項申請利用的部分納進來我覺得是比較完整那我還是建議應該要定期公開或定期公佈因為如果不定期的話我們執行起來就會有一些困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3231.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3244.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
到底什麼時候才算是適當的公佈時間或公開時間所以我會贊成是不是就重新把這些文字調理以後再請大家委員共同來致詞以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3246.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3260.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 謝謝王委員的建議來 請陳昭志委員好 謝謝昭委剛剛林淑英委員的這個案的動議修正動議我們都支持那我本來在今天的再修正的部分再修正動議的部分是加了一條說當時間屆滿的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3263.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3286.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們希望他能夠這個主動通知就是要主動通知健保署讓健保署能夠掌握資料的去向跟處理狀況作為他資訊管理資料管理者的必要的追蹤跟盤點等於是在補強行政這個可機性跟問責的基礎就是一個明確的部分就是太通知再通要通知這個健保署簡單來說這一條我們只是確保說有借有還 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3289.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3309.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
然後還得通知這個健保署讓管理者有完整的資料使用的一個完整記錄避免這個行政濫用就是說我們就是除了尊重林淑文委的意見之外我們是在修正動議有加這一條就是使用者到期滿就停止的時候要主動通知你們還是你們可能隨時再監測嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3313.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3322.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
時間到了要求屆滿期滿就是主動通知健保署讓你們可以直接去處理後續的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3324.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3344.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
加這個字而已 不用因為跟委員報告他們只能吸出的是統計結果所以他並沒有這些資料本身沒有這些原始的資料本身他是帶出的是統計結果所以他沒有銷毀的問題有銷毀問題的是第10條第10條由其他的政府機關夠那麼依法依其職權來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3353.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3377.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
目的外利用之後我們那個會有這個要銷毀的機制因為那個是有資料的傳輸這個本身是沒有資料的傳輸第11條的利用是沒有資料的傳輸它只有吸出統計的結果所以它沒有所謂的使用期滿的問題它已經去發表成paper了怎麼叫做使用期滿所以第11條的部分沒有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3385.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3406.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我這裡再補充 委員不好意思那個 張志偉委員您提的是您原來的文字是寫在您的第九條就是剛剛 剛剛署長所提的第十條署長已經有補充那另外就是因為政府機關構他所來要求要的 提供的資料呢因為他都是依據他的職權法律所以那一塊呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3407.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3436.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
基本上我們會在授權辦法裡面去明確定定因為他拿到資料之後到達他的使用期限他就應該要銷毀那個會在授權辦法裡面去明定現有的各個職權的法律都有相關的這樣的要求包括各執法裡面也有提到類似的你們有授權有要求你們也相信OK那就好啦沒有我們上一次的討論這樣有加上一條就是說如果那些機關構違反規定要如何處理和處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3437.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3465.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那個是之後 不是在這一條啦對啦 我說要記得喔因為資料給你們了 你們那些機關依職群來要了別人要不到都給你們了 你去濫用或是沒有把關好 你這要處分機關上次有講到要處分才是重點 沒有處分喔形同道德勸說 無好患論好好 謝謝這文字就在 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3466.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3481.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
螢幕上 各位委員看一下看這樣可不可以 如果可以的話就是等同是行政院跟營委員 市區委員等在修正都一頭通過了 好不好各位看一下文字那個頓點 清澈的後面是頓點那個集的後面要有集其他相關資訊 集的後面 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3502.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3519.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
好這樣可以嗎好可以的話那我們就剛剛宣讀了就以行政院林淑慧及林淑慧委員還有王世修委員等這個所提修正動議所提修正再修正動議通過好謝謝那接下來第15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3522.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3546.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
第15條的部分有分歸報告就是有這個委員林月琴、邱振軍、王玉銘、徐宇貞、林淑芬、劉建國還有這個院板當然還有修正動議是盧憲玉委員還有陳昭志委員所提的修正動議那還是請衛務部來做說明先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3549.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3571.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
行政機關說明第15條行政院院版條文的內容是第11條第一項申請者執行健保資料特定目的外利用所的結果產生產業利益者應提撥一定比率回饋金納入全民健康保險基金前項產業利益之認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3572.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3572.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
還有就是許 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3599.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3601.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那行政機關的意見是因為要產生這個產業利益呢事實上他所要耗費的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3628.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3655.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
是蠻長的那我們也很難預估說他大概會有多久所以呢我們那個多少年會產生利益者這個部分呢行政機關的意見是我們可以在授權的辦法裡面去明定包括提撥多少比例的回饋金我們也會在第二項的授權辦法去訂定因為產業力的認定還有提撥回饋金的一定比例方式及其他相關的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3656.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3675.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 所以那個親委員可以支持那個院版的條文 以上說明好 對不起我這邊委內做一個補充說明啦齁 那個如果委員不在了就不用特別針對那個提案委員齁 做再做說什麼樣說明好不好好 接下來請李委員 也請你來做這請 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3680.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3702.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
因為我的第八條本來就有在加碼不得那個就是不能作為盈利使用那所以我覺得在這邊大概可是有時候大概不是規定就好可能後端可能有利益的產生而且不是當下在申請的時候就會知道而是未來所以因為這個資料而研發出來商品之後可能會有些利益的產出 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3704.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3731.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以呢我覺得這筆回饋金有時候你只限定在申請時當然就是不對的要設定一段期限那如果你說拉很長坦白講如果等到20年坦白講他前面的付出的那個整個的也是成本很高所以那時候我們才會說用數年最後還是要有個期限否則的話好像會沒有任何的一個漫無目的的那我20年30年後你都還要可是我搞不好投出的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3731.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3752.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那個成本事實上是更高的那你後來因為後例要來算我前面的那你也不會把我成本算進去所以我覺得抓15年事實上是合理的所以才會在這邊特別去放這個15年所以自申請日期15年產生的利益應繳回一定的比例的回饋金以上那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3756.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3761.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
委員 行政機關這邊回應不好意思我待會再補充因為我剛漏了盧憲一盧憲一委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3765.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3791.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對 那個岳勤委員所講的15年內行政機關這邊回應是否可以 因為每個研究它可以產生的產業利益時間我想應該是都不一樣的可能有的短 有的長所以那塊是不是容許我們在授權辦法裡面去訂一個Range就是剛剛委員說如果是15年或許我們可以再訂個10到15年沒有 我們回去會再研究一下有那個空間可以讓我們訂在那個授權辦法裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3792.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3809.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
因為相關的產生產業利益的研究應該有很多元會依照每個申請者來申請的研究範圍跟目的有所不同所以有的或許時間短有的或許會時間比較長讓我們有可以定一個Range不知道這樣委員可不可以這樣好 請提出委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3815.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3836.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我的版本是沒有不過因為大家這樣討論我覺得是不是應該可以這樣朝這樣的方向我自己想的啦我不曉得是不是最適當的應該是說這個就是為什麼我們對11條的規範要嚴謹的原因而且要公開透明讓人民有知情權的原因就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3837.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3865.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們雖然名者限定機關和學術機構可以做研究其他都不行可是事實上呢我們卻允許它產出利益商業利益那其實這裡面大家沒有談的就是我們在這裡面允許了寄轉而且也允許了產學合作那事實上呢要做這種研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3868.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3892.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
其實有時候也是都是透過醫院或學術單位然後去進行所謂的研究那就是產跟學就是必須經常在那裡相互的配合所以要限定幾年不如要不要講說如果這個以寄轉或產學合作的方式而獲取寄轉產學合作或 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3895.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3916.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這樣去產出商業利益或其他方式而產出商業利益者獲得就要提撥了就是說也不限幾年啦你去大概計轉和產學合作之外因為為了避免還有其他模式嘛所以再加上或其他的其他的利用而產出這個商業產業利益者就要提撥 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3924.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3951.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
什麼的我的意思是說這樣子啦其實我的意思是說我們這樣規定好像是說只能做學術學術學術就跟產跟學都在一起啊那學術到最後也會計轉啊其實不如大家公開的給他講清楚計轉產學合作或其他目的外的利用而產出這個商業利益者就一定要繳回饋金好再請林月行委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3956.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3974.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我認為明訂期間有兩面性第一個就是行政機關本來就有義務去追你沒有訂的話雙方都不清不楚而且我不認為在執法你在訂的時候如果剛剛講說你可以有一些期限那每個產業不同那你就預期它本來就有些利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3975.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3997.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這個事實上是在不預期的狀況裡面本來就學術研究它本來就不能作為盈利只是後端如果因為這樣的研究後端如果去開發什麼藥的話得到一些利益的時候我們這時候應該要去要求繳回一定的比例第二個是使用者也可預期的負責任的期限是什麼時候我覺得這樣子會比較好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4010.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4035.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
來請王振興委員關於第15條我個人在之前醫院工作或者是在大學任教的時候其實我們很多利用健保資料庫所衍生的結果除了能夠得到這個學術上的價值同時是有機會是有機會透過這些方式來變成一個公共利益的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4036.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4053.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這個公共利益當然範圍非常的大包括產業利益其實最後也是公共利益的一部分所以我是建議說如果希望能夠讓這樣的公共利益可以得到最大化的話我會建議一開始就不要定的太 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4055.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4073.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
在一定的範圍裡面因為我們也了解所有的學術產出的內容有時候我們會回到10年20年前說曾經有哪一篇的論文引用了什麼樣的資料那最後得到出相關的結果所以如果我們把它定了太一定的Range就是一定的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4074.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4098.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
的話可能會影響到他未來利用所產生的最終的公共利益所以如果維持現在的文字的話我覺得可以是相對相對有彈性不過在訂這個事項的辦法的時候可能在裡面就要做比較完整的陳述這樣希望有比較好的規範因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4100.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4119.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
因為我們也了解嘛所有的這些資料的產出最終我們希望的是公共利益為導向那商業利益是其中的一部分那商業利益的產出裡面其實是產業利益的一部分這樣聽起來有點繞口啦不過我想概念上是這個樣子以上好 謝謝那請魏恩好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4127.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4142.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為上次我第15條裡面有增加說如果是因為研究原住民族健康資料所產生的產業利益應該納入原住民族綜合發展基金上次感謝我們衛福部有派人到辦公室跟人民會的長官一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4143.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4161.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那可是我有要求說希望這次的那個我們這個會議能夠邀請我們園民會可是我看名單裡面還是沒有園民會的那上次他們有一些建議看上次與會的官員能不能說上次我們的結論可以嗎跟給大家知道今天有出席嗎來請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4168.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4184.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
您剛剛提的那個是在第5條原住民道如果是15條的部分我那天有說到是說因為我們現在所有申請者來利用我們的資料跑出來的使用結果那使用結果如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4184.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4199.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
或有未來有機會有技術移轉或取得專利的話產生產業利益希望他能夠挹注到我的健保基金那因為挹注到我的健保基金是全民共享也就是說即使我不管是用哪 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4200.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4216.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
用哪些人只要用到我全國2300萬人民的資料統計出來的資料放到我的健保基金是供全民所去共享的所以我們建議是說就不用特別再納入原住民的綜合發展基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4216.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4237.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那另外呢委員裡面版本有提到說在第二項增加了一個有關援助民族健保製造所生產利益的認定與回饋事宜由中央就是由原民會會同本條例來訂定之然後因為那天跟委員溝通的時候原民會的代表也有在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4238.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4257.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個部分我們在訂定的時候我們會找園民會一起來一起來研議內容但是基本上我們這裡所訂的辦法裡面的細節原則上因為我們是針對所有的資料健保資料去做分析的所以不會特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4258.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4284.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
特別去續名這個原住民的部分那另外再跟委員補充那天有跟您提到是我們目前查衛福部資科中心裡面呢原民會呢基本就是都有委託單委託機構來跑原住民的統計年報所以呢我們現在公佈在網站上的清澈都可以明顯看出來那個是統計年報之用至於是針對那個原住民的研究呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4285.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4299.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
相對是比較少的但是如果有我們會到那個最後的審查機制那邊去做審查所以基本上我們的建議是希望那個委員還是同意讓我們可以採用院版 以上說明好 那個林院情委員剛剛王委員的開示他坐你旁邊不曉得能不能問通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4315.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4317.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
如果你認同之,我們就好處理之 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4323.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4350.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
他們兩個討論一下我再講一下就是說事實上我們行政院版的這個版本事實上就如同王正旭醫師講的你沒有限縮在一定程度事實上你未來這篇論文這篇paper如果被運用到這個這個產業界去使用那到底要限定在什麼時候30年後被用到了被用到了也要提撥40年後也要50年後也要是這樣的概念嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4351.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4374.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那我的意思是說他這個是兩面刃啦因為你如果沒有那只要quote一次就算用到了嗎所以我們才講說要不要先說在這個G轉的產權合作的或其他或其他什麼樣的利用而產出這個產業利益者 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4377.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4395.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個這樣有限縮當然限縮不見得是好因為我自己也不確定這樣限縮到底是不是好那所謂的利用是要怎麼樣的利用才叫做利用我學術上引用到了就全部都叫了這樣子好像也照你們行政院版本好像是這樣子喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4395.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4420.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那是無止無盡的喔那要怎麼提撥所以有些人說不見得是壞事就先說在我剛剛講的概念或是加上林月琴委員的概念不見得是壞事啦但我覺得我自己也沒有把握說這樣子是不是適當的但沒有的話反而好像無止無盡喔你自己講到最後自己也沒有把握 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4422.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4447.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
嗯你還講好好沒關係沒關係不行不行因為你這樣講不公平因為在這裡大家一起討論嘛大家把所有的可能都拿出來拋出來嘛那對那怎麼樣是對公共利益是最好的因為事實上醫藥界都一樣產業利益商業利益他也可以說這個全部都是公共利益啦藥學界我明明有請他去試醫他也說我這是為了大家公共利益我以後是要叫人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4450.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4464.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
啊到底這是產業利益還是公共利益所以醫藥界所謂的產業利益都連結到公共利益但是很不容易釐清啦很不容易對我是回應你剛剛講的最後那一句話啦我的意思是說我那一句話是要我不見得正確但要大家一起討論啦好啦好啦當然一起討論現在也是一起討論啦來請林彥行委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4473.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4503.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好 我剛如果是以王委員的話那就是跟我行政部門的是一樣我還是堅持用我這個就否則除非有講出更因為你定案辦法常常我自己在過去在跟政府去在處理事情的時候很常定案辦法事實上是沒有會去很落實去做所以我覺得定在這邊母法裡面還是會有好處的所以我還是期待事實上是定在母法裡面以上來那林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4504.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4518.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
要堅持要不要跟主席還有跟委員報告確實剛剛林委員還有兩位林委員提的我們也是覺得在執行面上讓它法律明確就是以15年 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4520.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4535.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
一般來講如果他是像剛剛記轉之後產生新藥很多的研究最後產生新藥的話大概10到15年所以以15年大概也算是一個合理的期程但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4536.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4560.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
要不要是只有在記轉來寫在裡面我是建議說把它放在我們第二項的授權法規我們有一個前項產業利益之認定從產業利益之認定還有提供活課金之一定的比例或方式這些都由授權法規來訂定因為它的樣態可能比較多 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4561.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4583.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我們怕在這裡把他限縮在只有計轉的話又掛一漏萬但是有一個連線我覺得是應該對這個利用者來講他也比較有一個可預期性不然他對我們行政單位執行也避免我們的責任無限延長 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4584.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4613.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
變成我們要追幾十年這樣所以用一個這個年限我覺得行政單位應該是可以執行這樣所以你的建議是就是採用那個林業勤委員的版本寫上年限這樣自申請日起15年內產生之產生之利益者 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4617.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4627.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
產生之產業利益者產生之產生之產業申請日期15年內產生產生產業利益者這也是領委的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4652.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4674.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以你們意見可接受林委員所提的版本是不是應該這樣說對不對好來請陳昭志委員基本上剛剛討論的精神我都接受但是我想請教健保署這裡產業利益的認定還有提不為定比率回饋金的這個意見請問這個是這個部分是哪個是誰來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4676.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4677.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
本法的主管機關定 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4702.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4717.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
還是你們啊還是你們在聘啊你們在找人啊就是還是你們在做嘛對不對就是健保署在執行不是健保署主管機關這部法的主管機關以行政院版本是衛生福利部好 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4721.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4745.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
就基本上就這樣規範是很OK啦只是說那到時候認定就很多方法囉很多標準很多見解啊怎麼認定啊就像剛剛林委員說啊quote一次用不用那造成的貢獻那個不得了那個最後的認定事情是一個大工程欸啊你要回饋多少比例一句話嗎主審委員一句話你就還多少錢嗎啊我如果放鬆一點你就不還錢嗎或者說這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4748.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4772.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這件事還蠻大的還蠻大的就是說你們確定你們在寫這條法條的時候一定要有相當的一個想法吧因為跟委員報告照說這個還是會循這個法治程序他也是要辦理預告辦理公告他是一個辦法他要定辦法不是一個委員會委員審查而已他要定一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4774.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4798.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
要明確啦一個認定老實說很廣泛很空泛我只是了解一下好謝謝那我們第15條就依照林業勤委員的版本來通過好謝謝那接下來我們來處理第16條那16條有行政院版委員林業勤、邱振軍、王育民、徐宇珍、林淑芬、劉建國還有這個修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4800.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4807.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
陳昭志委員所提的修正動議兩個還有陳昭志委員所提的修正再修正動議我們一併來討論那請衛務部先來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4815.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4839.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
第十六條行政院院版的文字是主管機關及保險人依個人資料保護法第十七條公開其持有健保資料之有關事項時應一定公開下列事項一當事人得就其健保資料之全部或一部請求停止他人為特定目的外之利用二 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4839.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4862.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
簽款請求之方式受理機關及其他相關事項這裡所有委員相關的版本大致上都同意願版的那行政機關這裡再補充待會在17條的部分署分委員有提到另外一些文字那因為行政機關經過經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4867.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4889.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
思考之後覺得擺在16條會比較好所以是不是我待會在17條的地方講還是我現在先一併講好我現在一併講就是淑芬委員她在第17條的部分有提到說本條例施行起一個月一個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4892.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4898.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
本條例施行起三十日內主管機關或保險人應停止受理依第十一條第一項申請特定目的外利用健保資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4919.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4939.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
然後呢再加一項當事人位於前項期間內請求停止利用視為同意其健保資料為特定目的外利用期間見滿後當事人仍得請求停止其健保資料之特定目的外利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4940.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4965.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那行政機關希望擺在這裡的原因我補充說明因為我們有關於民眾的退出權是從16條開始16 17 18 19這四條都在講退出權那16條一開始就提到說當事人是可以就健保資料的全部或一部請求停止利用那麼因為要讓因為這是我們首次做的讓民眾可以知道有退出權這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4966.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4980.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以我們在這個條例施行期三十日內主管機關跟保險人我們會停止那個我們第十一條第一項所提的是指申請者來跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4981.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4996.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
主管機關跟保險人來申請學術研究的這些因為他會利用到我的健保資料那麼我在本條例施行起30日內我就停止受理這個學術研究來申請利用健保資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4996.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5019.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那麼當事人我們就呃公開了一個月三十日的時間那我們會呃向民眾宣告公布那當事人好民眾如果沒有在這三十日內來請求停止利用我們就視同他同意健保資料為特定目的外利用那麼期間三十日後呢當事人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5020.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5044.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
雖然他可能之前沒有來跟我說說他要不讓他的資料被他人使用但是我在這30日以後呢當事人仍然可以繼續請求停止其健保資料的特定目的外利用接著我17條就會去續明當事人是如何來跟我們申請的一些相關的程序以上說明所以你現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5050.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5074.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
第16條你們也建議因為連動17條嘛所以你要依林委員的幫忙去做相關的修正嘛對不對對 是 調整 調整 調次好 那來 請陳教授委員我對林委員印象很嚴格不過就是現在我覺得還要做的一點而且我個人 我們黨團比較堅持的一點是因為這是大法官的這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5075.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5100.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
才覺得他是說要經過同意所以其實就是說我們希望能夠明白是要先經過大家同意所以我在個人修正動議案請大家參考原來的第十七條既然要加入這部分我個人在修正動議的條文是寫保險人與當事人締結全民健保契約條款應取得當事人同意這個跟退出不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5101.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5127.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這個是要取得他的同意使得由主管機關或保險人進行假名化資料庫的儲存管理對外傳輸會提供本法的依本法申請特定目的外使用那當事人得隨時填具申請書請求保險人停止其資料部的全部或一部分假名化資料的等等等等的目的目的外使用所以我們在是希望他是要要求同意不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5128.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5141.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
你如果沒有表達同意就等於你同意這個精神不太一樣所以我我們會比較堅持這一點就是要求要徵求同意這也是原來那個憲判的精神啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5144.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5170.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
要求同意跟委員補充 憲判的精神他是認同憲法法庭肯認我們那個學術機關的核限性但是他沒有要求要獲得民眾的同意權 憲判沒有寫到這個那唯一有缺失的地方是說因為我們現行的相關的法律沒有可以讓民眾可以來申請特定目的外例外的退出權 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5171.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5194.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以呢我們目前對於民眾這塊有事前同意權跟事後控制權憲判的主文沒有提到民眾要有事前同意權那我們在後面的條文17條就會去續名讓民眾可以來申請退出那我剛剛續名的文字裡面也是提說因為我們這是首次讓民眾可以退出健保資料那我們覺得應該要有一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5195.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5205.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
有一定的期間我們現在是定三十日內我們公告周知所有的民眾告訴他們說我們現在呢你們如果覺得你們個人的資料呢不願意提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5206.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5223.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
供第三方去做學術研究的話那在這30日內你們可以來跟我申請那如果你沒有來申請那麼我就視同你同意這個就是類似我就是等於是近在主管機關不好意思這一點我比較堅持就是說一個是被動一個主動一個當作他不知道就過去了就是說我這邊主張是要求個人明確的同意下進行而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5232.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5260.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他是應該有隨時可以持續的控制權就是說他是有一個很方便的管道當然這個比較細節部分他隨時可以撤回修改所以我我不希望他只是談那個紙上談兵啊就是說他這個所以我們是要求要這個要當事人取得當事人同意使得進行後面這一串的這個這個工作作業那如果院板沒有辦法接受的話主席不好意思我保留這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5263.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5269.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
市長要再回應還是林委員要講要不要等林委員講完再一併回應好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5293.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5308.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
目的外的利用健保資料使用時候應該就資料只使用方式目的期間申請人跟拒絕提供的方法等這個都要告知所以我的不是說你們前面所有人要所有人大家都同 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5309.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5331.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所有的人要原則上同意這沒問題可是我認為尤其是像這個應該還要去考慮到你每次使用的時候要被通知我們在做學術研究通常我們都跟我們的受訪當事人講隨時你如果要你都還有一個退出權可是前面都還要告知的非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5332.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5350.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那為什麼在使用這個的時候反而是不用我們都認為他都同意可是如果是罕病的話那這個一交叉比對都很容易知道是誰啊那而且他不同意被使用的話就可以退出所以我當初的14條我的第二項目的是在這邊不會是你一次同意之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5351.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5362.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
你們一直在做研究有一天如果我自己突然想到我可以去退出可是有些人並不了解你這樣的使用會不會涉及到他尤其我剛剛提到罕病事實上是會被教他比對到 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5365.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5390.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以14條才會最後那些款會增加應定期啦 公開啦來 另外如果可以的話 因為這整個概念就是說事前同意的叫同意權那事後的叫做退出權如果理想上可以的話我們都希望是事前要取得我們同意所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5391.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5415.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
理想上這樣子可是現實上我知道行政成本行政部門的人他們行政的成本對他們來講他們會抗拒那所以我才退而求其次說那至少整部法律在施行以前給我們一個冷凍期讓想要的人可以有真正的事前這個同意權全部都退出 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5416.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5428.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
但是一定大多數人都沒有辦法事前同意大多數人也不太因為大多數人如果全部都退出了也不值得研究了啦老實說啦會有這個問題那所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5433.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5449.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
理想上我也是支持陳昭之委員的概念但是因為現實就是這麼現實所以才會想到一個事前的同意的冷凍期和事後的退出權因為你叫大家都說要取得同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5453.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5465.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這個像第10條的那個法定職權的就不用取得同意了法律說我就要去調你的資料司法審判我就直接調來取你的同意這是不可能的但我們對第11條講的醫院的學術的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5470.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5493.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
還有什麼產業階的產學利用的這種要來理論上如果可以事前同意當然是更好但是他要事前同意作業的人還是官方啦就每一次每一案那事前同意要多久那要事前同意沒有取得的啊有取得的然後就到時候作業上也是官方的人要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5494.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5514.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
要去篩選要去跑所以這個就是行政成本的問題對他們來講我就可以聽聽行政部門他們到底行政成本會高到多高如果沒有的話我們當然也是最好每一件每一案一年300多案然後每一件每一案我們就每一件都跑 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5515.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5544.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那要同意權要拉多長那大家回傳時間會多長那他們整理要多少時間這個行政成本時間成本那會對整體的申請研究的人會有什麼影響可以聽聽看啦食物界可以聽聽看啦如果真的行政成本不高我也是支持每一次每一件都是事前同意當然是事前同意是當然是完整度比較高那行政部門也可以舉例的看看外國是怎麼弄的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5547.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5560.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
還沒有回應耶你要不要先等回應好 請先生就先回應三位委員剛才提手提的問題好不好好 跟委員報告我們這個回珠這個憲法法庭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5562.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5589.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這個主文第一點他就有特別提到我們為了這些學術研究或公共利益有它的必要然後資料經過提供者處理後或經收集者依其揭露方式而無從辨識特定之當事人這個跟法律的明確性原則比例原則尚屬無誤不抵觸憲法第22條保障人民隱私 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5590.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5605.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
權之一職所以以我們目前的使用方式那麼憲法法庭呢認為他是合法合憲那麼但是呢他在他的主文裡面的這個第四條則是提到那麼雖然我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5606.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5632.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
这些个人资料来使用在原始收集目的外利用由相关的法治来看的话则是欠缺当事人得请求停止利用之相关规定所以这个部分是有违反这个宪法第22条保障人民隐私权之意旨所以才有这个需要有这个退出权的行使所以在目前我们目前的利用方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5636.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5651.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
合法合憲只不過欠缺的當事人得請求停止利用這規定所以我們這個條文的主要的精神都是聚焦在 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5652.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5667.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
退出权的行使而不是再重新从每一个人再去取得告知同意因为我们在提供利用的时候呢已经把它做了一些处理那么包含让他无从辨识特定之当事人这是第一个说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5668.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5694.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
第二個說明剛剛林委員林慧琴委員也擔心會不會去串接之後就可以得知當事人因為我們現在所提供的資料都是經過主管機關或保險人處理不會把資料釋出大家可能有時候還停留在多年前有那個資料可以釋出的現在都是在指定地點特定時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5696.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5715.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
去跑資料這個資料都已經去掉可辨識性假名化了所以他不會再有去串接、比對、勾擊不可能有這個程序所以即使是罕病我想也可以不用擔心可以看出他是當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5716.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5742.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那么另外呢刚刚又有提到说是不是除了我们有个冷冻期那以后冷冻期的意思就是目前已经在接受健保服务的我们都已经有这些资料所以让他们有一个30天的时间来思考然后提出这个要不要退出的这个退出使用的这个权利的行使那这个我想是OK |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5743.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5760.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那但是如果未來每一個從叫做以這個陳昭志委員的版本叫做在締結全民健康保險契約的條款要取得當事人的同意那意思就是在申請健保卡的時候就要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5761.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5779.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
在告知同意要行使這個資料的提供權目的外使用目的外使用那這樣等於是發現保卡的意思就是都是新生兒啦或者是移工啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5780.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5803.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們現在每年最多會新產生健保卡發出去的大概五六十萬啦一年我們大概就是五六十萬那多數呢其實是這個移工啦因為他進來之後就會有這個健保他就因為工作他就可以依法取得健保的保障啊這個都是一段時間他又走了 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5804.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5822.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
他可能兩年之後他又回去了所以進進出出說我們每年要做製造好多的新的健保卡主要是這個另外有一群就是新生兒我們要發健保卡那個現在就差不多十萬十幾萬越來越少這樣所以這個行政成本確實是很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5824.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5848.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那么而且它的效益刚刚提到的那个移工的部分其实它就是两年它的资料其实可用性相对价值低新生儿的部分就通通都是要代理人的所以这个会造成我们的行政成本真的是很困难那所以我们是比较支持像林淑芬委员的版本这样给一个时间让现行已经 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5849.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5873.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
跟有健保卡的國人那麼他有一個一個月的思考去做這個退出權的行使那之後那因為你都知道這個法律後面的這個法律本法已經實施之後呢那你都可以知道有這個退出權的行使你就隨時可以來退出所以這是假設同意事後退出這個在其他國家在有一些這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5874.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5893.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
器官捐贈也有這種先例就是假設同意那麼退出例外這樣子我覺得是在不論是在大法官釋憲或者是在我們的行政單位的執行成本跟可行性上那麼是比較容易執行以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5895.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5904.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
主席不好意思我想再多談就這一條讓我們再思考我們要求保留要求保留因為他非常的關鍵謝謝好陳委員建議保留各位有沒有其他意見請王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5916.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5937.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
就是根據目前在討論第16條我想剛剛在陸委員很擔心的事情就是如果沒有辦法能夠取得同意權每一次都取得同意權的話未來執行上會不會造成這些民眾的權益的受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5938.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5952.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我是比較贊同說依照實務上我們如果真的要每次都取得同意權的話事實上那個行政成本真的非常的高那剛實務長也跟我們報告有關於到底誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5953.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5976.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
在除了第一時間取得同意權的授權的同時什麼時候還要再追加他的同意權事實上真的是有他的困難度所以如果依照現在包括林樹委員所提供的我們針對同意權在一定的時間裡面讓他去確認那退出權的部分呢也可以有額外的追加隨時可以再追加的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5977.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6005.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
相對來講已經是能夠保護到我們這些同意權人在執行過程當中所擔心為人所擔心的問題所以我會同意說如果能夠再從這個紅字上所追加的第三第四項的話應該是第三第四項就能夠符合當初在這個大法官所期待的這些內容的具體要求以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6009.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6022.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
你要回應的時候順便我也跟陳昭秀委員提醒一下你講那個得當是很同意那個應該是你在第17條裡面現在是要處理第16條所以等下17條會處理到你要講的範圍應該是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6031.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6052.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我再補充一點剛剛提到行政成本高應該是說我如果每一個學術案件我都要通知當事人獲得他的同意我一年有300多件我們2300萬的人民他就隨時會收到說你要不要同意你的資料所以對於民眾來講也是一個也是一個干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6053.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6064.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
除了我們行政成本高之外對於民眾來說他幾乎就常常就會收到說有人要做研究你的資料要不要同意讓這個學術研究去做研究以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6066.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6084.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我想這個條文我再補充一下陳委員所擔心的這個OECD在今年的6月那麼有出版了一個最新的報告是OECD Digital Economy Paper他這裡特別是提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6086.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6106.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這個二次利用資料的二次利用來實現公共利益裡面特別提到鑑於個人健康資料利用的整體公共利益多個國家已採用選擇退出OPTOUT就是OPTOUT模式在此模式下是預設為 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6107.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6131.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
同意利用資料除非個人明確選擇退出所以就是我們現在這一部法律所採取的原則因為他到每一個都要事前同意呢其實他的行政成本還有他的可行性是相對低的所以已經是多個國家也都採取op out就是我們現在的方式假設預設同意那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6132.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6144.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
個人可以選擇退出所以這個通常都是這樣的模式會高於op-in的可行性所以這個paper我們都可以提供給委員會參考這個是OECD已經正式發布的規定規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6150.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6156.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那OECD他發表這個關於健康這個資料的建議當中他也指出喔他並沒有說一定要你所謂的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6165.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6192.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
除非要在未經個人明確同意下進行健康資料再利用必須具備強而有力的透明化程序獨立審查機制那為什麼我一直強化獨立審查機制其他我們的條文我們會討論到這件事以及可供當事人查詢及控管的資訊公開制度所以你剛剛談的那個行政成本當然這個尊重你們行政成本的一個處理方式但事實上就是你要可以設計完善的一個申請流程跟受理平台有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6193.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6221.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
很多地方啊譬如說欠保快遺通啦網頁登錄啦這個等等等等然後這個如果他沒有辦法使用網路線你也有替代圖定啊電話的靈魂等等就是其實他的精神並沒有你說有些國家這樣做但是也有些他並沒有要碩士這樣的方向去做所以我覺得這一次我覺得還大家還是請大家再想想看你用被動的我先被納進去了然後我知道了我要退出了還是說你 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6222.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6244.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
讓他同意然後你們設計一個非常完善的方便力的一個申請跟受理的一個平台跟流程事實上還是可以回到我們今天為什麼要立專法的精神好我們現在處理有困難就保留好 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6250.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6276.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那我們先保留啦接下來處理第17條可能這樣就會比較更清晰一點那第17條有委員林月琴邱振鈞、王育民、徐宇甄林史文、劉建國等委員所提的這個條文還有行政院的版本那修正動議的部分有這個王育民委員還有劉建國委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6281.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6309.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
還有林署委員陳昭志委員還有陳昭志委員的再修正動議好請行政機關表示意見第17條第17條呢院版提到的有四項那重點是針對當事人他可以來填申請書請求停止他的健保資料利用另外如果針對當事人未滿7歲或者是滿7歲到18歲應該有當事人本人或輔助人同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6311.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6338.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個說明那最後呢第三項有提到是保險人如果受理第一項申請之後呢我們會保險人會註記申請日三十日內註記不得提供目的外的利用那最後一項就是我關於這個程序裡面停止資料的種類範圍註記還有通知內容等等我們會訂定授權辦法定之淑芬委員裡面所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6339.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6341.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好 委員沒有其他的意見要表示沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6368.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6370.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我想在因為我們現在是正式會議才會有記錄所以我想再表達一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6396.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6413.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就是說 抱歉我是看我自己的版本我自己版本的最後一項就是第一項停止特定目的外利用健保資料的總類範圍而註記及通知的內容及其他事項由主管機關定之跟行政鏈擺一樣嗎 抱歉我剛才的一樣的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6417.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6445.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那因為這個種類像CT檢驗就像這種範圍是不是涉及到特殊疾病罕見疾病等等這樣子那這種東西這個健保資料是純粹的文字報告的資料影片的資料基因的資料那影像的資料這種是全部都在範圍裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6449.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6470.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
根本不知道我們目前這些資料我們的範圍是都有到時候都可以來選擇要退出的是部分還是全部那至於說我們在提供利用的時候即使是我們過去也有用這個影像去做AI來協助診斷它就是要影像去做試煉 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6472.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6494.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
但是都會把那個可辨識性資料因為CT片上面都有一些名字還有身分證那個都會掩蓋完之後才提供那個做AI的這個Machine Learning所以那個部分我們都一樣會採用這個假名化的方式去處理因為就是影像資料啦這種都是可以去除的嗎對 可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6501.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6519.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
全部都是PDF檔嗎不會因為現在如果只用PDF檔它的可利用性很低PDF檔其實就好像是一張照片一樣我知道它後面的運用會受限影像資料就是PDF檔嗎不是不是影像資料不是PDF檔師傅我仔細聊那個修正多你沒有回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6533.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6534.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我們的方式是 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6544.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6567.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
對 我們的方式是由那個授權法規來訂啦因為有各式各樣不同的方式都可以就是未來也可能直接你就用那個 你的那個我們有那個My Health Bank健保的APP就可以來申請那個都可能 所以我們是用授權法規好 授權法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6573.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6583.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
來 各位同仁有沒有其他意見要保留先請保留 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6586.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6605.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 那十七條那就照陳委員建議先保留來 繼續我們處理第十八條那有院版 行政院版本 林業勤 邱振軍 王玉敏 徐宇貞 林淑溫 劉建國等委員所提的版本還有這個陳徹司委員的暫修正動議我們一併來討論請那個行政院來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6611.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6636.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
18條的部分是指說當事人如果經註記停止目的外利用之後呢保險人跟主管機關及保險都不可以在對外提供特定目的外的利用但是這裡還有加一個就是停止目的外利用的效力不溯及既往也就是我們在這個條例通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6639.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6666.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
意思就是說只規範通過之後 如果之前的已經學術研究已經申請核准的部分呢 就不說既往那各委員的版本呢 都同意願版以上說明好 這個應該沒有問題啦 招職委員是調適的問題而已啦對啊對啊 所以是不是叫行政院的版本來通過 好不好可以啦齁 好 謝謝 然後我們接下來來處理第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6670.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6690.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
19條的部分是在指那個推出的例外情形那我們例外的情形呢就是有我們列的三款一款是依其他法律主管機關或保險有提供之義務第二個是為維護國家安全第三個是為免除人民之生命身體或財產上的急迫危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6692.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6716.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那麼委員的部分是淑芬委員這邊有提到我們院版寫的是依其他法律那淑芬委員希望把它強化改為依第十條第一項規定主管機關或保險人有提供之義務那昭芝委員所提的部分呢因為她還特別加了兩個條件的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6720.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6740.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
行政機關這邊的意見是如果要更明確化的話呢我們同意採署非委員的版本就是把其他法律改為第十條第一項及第我們都增加了一個第三項的規定希望這樣更明確以上說明好請陳昭志委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6742.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6766.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有這個院版第19條的部分這個我們做了我做了一些加修正動議就麻煩大家參考一下當當事人請求特定目的外利用期及健保資料並經註記後符合下列條件者這個經審查會同意等下我們主席說會再回去討論經審查會同意後主管機關或保險人實則對外 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6768.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6797.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
提供特定目的外使用第一齁這個政府機構一第七條第一項各款規定為執行這個沒問題提升醫療品質公共衛生或社會福利之分析利用及科學研究第二個是政府機關無法及時有效透過其他方式取得所需資料導致分析或研究結果將產生偏誤因為我們認為原來的這個院版的字眼維護國家安全這免除什麼生命身體我覺得太空泛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6798.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6822.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個都是幾乎憲法層次的說明我們寫的是比較具體的方式為了執行提升醫療品質公共衛生或社會福利之分析利用及科學研究以及無法及時透過有效有效透過其他方式所取得的資料導致分析或研究結果將產生偏誤我們把它具體化明確化最重要的就是這個精神請參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6835.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6856.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
有關於委員說明的部分因為我們這個在原來院版的第八條裡面我們就寫得很清楚就是申請特地外目的特地目的外的利用就是用來提升醫療品質公共衛生等社會福利促進學術研究發展的公共利益那因為委員的版本裡面有特別在把 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6857.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6877.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這個是待會再回去的時候再說明就是委員的版本有再去序明說什麼叫做重大的公共利益掳裂了五款但是這裡我們是認為說是不是就可以不用再重述因為我本來的目的就是為了公共利益去做研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6877.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6901.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那至於第二點就是政府機關無法及時有效透過其他方式取得所需資料導致分析或研究結果產生偏差這個部分呢這個部分是不是無法及時有效這個部分是不是跟我這邊這邊的那個意思好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6904.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6930.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我比較無法 你們原來的條款其他法律機關有提供為維護國家安全為民族人民生命生理和財產急迫危險這想要說誰說的算數 我寫的具體一點比較具體到你們有法有法有法源可以處理是根據哪一條來做這件事情所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6931.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6960.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那醫療品質為什麼全文只能提一次為了執行具提升醫療品質公共衛生或社會福利的分析利用及科學研究而且你沒辦法即使這個精神也有點像再生醫療的那個醫療法某一些狀況無法即使有效通過其他方式所取得的資料導致分析或研究結果將產生偏誤對啊這個如果你對於覺得是國家安全或有一些急需東西他寫得更具體啊我這樣寫是更具體啊你那個是一個很空泛的形容詞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6962.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6979.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那誰來認定呢誰來認定為了維護國家安全這個大家都可以談耶那參考一下有困難嗎請問參考這個我的對第19條的再修正動議有困難嗎有哪裡困難或哪裡難行的地方來換林書委員請行事機關一併回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6987.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7012.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個第19條是很嚴肅的這個課題啦因為這一條是連你的事後退出權都被剝奪掉了那在這種狀況裡面我們就檢視這三款合不合理那所以它光是第一款依其他法律這個東西我在質詢的時候就講不通是說我就講說這行不通啊不是我講不通 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7015.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7038.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
其他法律我就舉一個例子這個是學者提出來的例子就癌症防治法看起來好像是有很高的正當性癌症防治法它就規定國家要提供充分的資源然後致力於推動包含辦理癌症防治的相關研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7039.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7057.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
即建立癌症資料庫在內的癌症防治工作聽起來好像天啊資料要提供研究也要做資料庫也要建立了可是依據這幾個字你就必須要全部都給他們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7059.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7084.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以這個法律沒有清楚的界定限制個人資訊自主的具體手段我的意思是說照這種概念如果你們要認為有這麼高強度政府的所有資料庫人比的資料都不能退出大家都要被研究的話那麼你就在癌症防治法裡面清清楚楚的界定我國家要做研究你們通通都不可以退出 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7085.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7110.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這樣才是正本清源的法律規範是要在這一個地方否則的話我們就限縮在你這個是霸王條款全部都不能退出所以我才第一款說那我們要限制在第十條第一項既有的職權的有限縮的而且第三項的他這樣子不是隨便一部法等一下他說我依據道路交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7111.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7134.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
管理條例我請你給我這一些東西為什麼不可以我要看一下有多少人有保險跟沒保險然後出車禍用了多少資源車禍跟資源使用的研究相關性我亂講的我亂講的聽我可能說我利用什麼某某某法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7134.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7152.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
所以這個當然是不行 第二個第二款就講為維護國家安全第三款講免除人民的生命身體財產上的緊急這個急迫的危險但是我的意思是說這個社會上學界也有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7154.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7173.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我們要任意的限制當事人的退出權的話這個不能夠這樣子寫啦你這樣子寫其實是不夠的而是應該要什麼比如說傳染病的危機來了那我們要訂一個特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7175.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7196.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那你對於這個主管機關對於特定這個事態的認定和公告你在立這個特別法的時候你是不是要去做到說大家所有的健保這個保險人每個人都要有克責說你有提供而且不得拒絕的義務都要把你的健保資料拿出來給人家去使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7197.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7222.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
才能夠說我們資料控制權被剝奪掉了而不是說這麼抽象幾個字就任由資料控制者無條件的剝奪當事人的權利所以在這種狀況在外國通常是主管機關你要在你的法律裡面明定那我們這邊才提供這樣子才是比較適當的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7224.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7250.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
國家安全的話 那國家安全又很抽象我們也可以要求一個機制 什麼樣的機制去設計出來然後作為一個把關但是因為那個各自保護會聽起來好像有道理是不是用這個機制那這個東西要送到現在各自保護會的主管機關誰我也是很擔心 各自保護會現在主管機關是誰 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7252.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7267.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
現在各支保護會陳委員主管機關是誰哪一個各支保護會的主管機關是誰各支保護法各支保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7269.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7292 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
會 主管機關是誰有時候我們也是要很擔心所以到底是要用什麼機制我覺得這裡真的是可以好好的再討論一下但是第一款那樣子改有限縮了那第二款要增加什麼可以討論那第三款的話我們在這123之外要不要增加一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7293.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7315.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這一些罷網條款的使用都必須要由來申請的這一些機關要訂出嚴謹的程序規定事實的認定不是你說急迫就急迫也不是說你威脅國家安全你就說就說你必須要去對於危險急迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7316.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7327.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
你對事實的認定的正當的法律程序要求要來要資料的那一些主管機關要講清楚要明定出來我們才提供吧 類似這樣子黃毓民 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7338.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7366.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好 針對19條我想請教就是說如果當事人他已經請求就是他已經簽了那個退出嘛那如果遇到剛剛講的這個國家安全對 那這樣會不會有衝突啊要不能退 這個就很嚴謹對啊 那這樣子這一條就是講大家都不能退不允許你退啊管理有沒有off out你這裡是不准的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7368.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7373.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
可是如果不準的話我覺得應該是要更明確的去界定是什麼樣的狀況是不 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7376.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7400.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以我們才講說第一款是限縮了這樣子了第二款第三款還是太抽象了國家安全對人民有危險這樣的事實認定不是國家政府說了一句話就算所以我們才講說要不要加第二項第二項要來談說這一些機關對於這個事實就是它的認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7402.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7420.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他不能夠太便宜行事 罷網條款動不動就拿出來你們不准退你對危險急迫的這個要件然後事實的認定他的正當的法律程序應該克責要來跟我們用這兩款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7420.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7437.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
要資料的人的機關要有一定的程序的把關我們才可以允許給他所以要增加第二項第二項要怎麼寫大家可以再思考所以我覺得不一定要馬上這一條就那個應該是可以保留大家再思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7438.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7459.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好啦 他連 我跟你連 你要回應嗎好 請來 請署長 謝謝跟 跟 張維還要跟委員報告先就陳昭志委員所提出的這個條文我們是有一些這個 這個考慮啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7460.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7478.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
意思就是說以陳委員的版本是說如果你這個已經註記不對外提供但是有符合下列的條件而且審查會通過仍然提出仍然可以提供也就是說他的退出權無效啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7479.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7506.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
意思是這樣可是我們在檢視他的情形下他現在的寫法第一款跟第二款是指限定在政府機關購他並沒有其他人可以使用這就是第一個限定在政府機關購可是回到政府機關購在本法行政院版本第十條他都是依法令來申請所以他本來就沒有退出權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7507.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7531.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那麼第十一條政府機關構跟其他法人學校可以來申請目的外利用那所以變成在退出權的部分政府機關構如果是依照這個行政院版本的第十一條來申請的那麼又經過審查會同意之後那就沒有退出權了所以這個是一個放寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7533.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7549.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這是一個放寬所以以陳委員現在的這個文字上呢我們必須去排除那個政府機關公第十條來的根本沒有審查會需要同意的問題因為它本來就是依法這不應該有審查會 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7551.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7569.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這個機制去再卡一次他本來司法機關檢調機關要來調目的外利用那本來就要提供了所以沒有這一個第18條現在陳昭志委員第18條的那至於依照第11條來申請的那就變成透過這個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7570.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7598.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就免退就沒有辦法行使退出權了所以這是不是要這樣子處理我們是保留啦那至於剛剛林淑芬委員我們是覺得改成就是能對外提供那麼一個是第十條第一項第三條因為這個是本來就有提供義務這個很清楚至於第二款跟第三款是不是參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7600.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7618.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
這個陳昭之委員的建議透過上面那個審議會或審查會同意之後再來認定這個所謂的第二款跟第三款的這個排除退出那麼也許是可以一個參考的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7619.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7640.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好 這位署長講得居心靡靡啦然後 想一下對啦 我知道 當然再想一下然後 那個時間也十點三十幾分啦給各位休息個十分鐘好不好然後大家靜一下 那請先希望再跟提案的委員還是意見不一樣的委員再溝通一下所以這一條應該溝通一下應該會順利啦好 謝謝 現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7652.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7665.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
其實他還在那邊做補償,因為他有查完,他到底是,他本來說是子宮肌瘤,二十幾公分的,可是你子宮肌瘤怎麼會過敏?對啊,所以那個補償的原因就是說,讓他比較好一點之後才要 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7676.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7699.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
然後我國是有馬牆跟馬匠然後出門去打架我都沒有去我只能陪你去我不知道 我不知道我最不想回家謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8429.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8434.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好,我們繼續開會,那針對第19條有沒有溝通了?有沒有共識?我現在不是在處理,我不是要問一個,不然你就這麼多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8451.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8465.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
來 先生待會請說明那個張偉豪各位委員我們是有有第19條的建議文字啦那個是不是請那個我們同仁給秀出來我們有建議文字啦那麼因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8466.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8482.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
剛剛也有跟陳昭志委員說明以陳委員現在的第18條的規範那麼他缺乏了我們在第10條這個政府機關構依法要來申請目的外使用那個是絕對沒有退出權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8484.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8507.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那第二個呢那如果是按照第11條來申請的才有退出權那這裡是在說不得退出啦那是針對第11條不得退出那麼如果以我們行政院現在的版本呢它是比較限縮性的一定要在國家安全還有免除人民生命財產急迫情形下才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8508.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8527.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
不准退出啦那是做限縮只是剛剛林淑穎委員說這個程序的認定應該要更嚴謹一點我們修正一些文字但是如果是以陳昭志委員現在的版本他就變成非常寬鬆只要經過審查會同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8528.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8553.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那麼因為他這個醫療品質公共衛生社會福利這個是非常廣泛的那反而變得很寬鬆只要審查會同意就沒有退出權了所以這個會不會跟大法官還有本法的設計的意旨相悖啦所以我們是比較保留這個想法這樣還是以行政院那幾個情況來考慮只是讓機制嚴謹一點這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8558.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8562.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好 各位聽署長這樣的說明來 請陳昭志委員 再來是范林書問委員你說委員你寫的 本來你還假說本來就是要審查會同意 你現在還是也是審查會同意 你還假說假說你覺得不妥的地方就第一條有明文 第十條第一項規定 第三項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8583.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8611.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我大家都覺得維護國家安全跟什麼美索人民生命身體或財產是急迫危險這個是很空泛所以現在你是用這個建議用前項第二款第三款所定型應該要經過誰來認定嘛就不是就是誰來認定啊那現在就是一個審查會但是報告主席審查會我們目前是在前面的條文會提到那審查會的召集人成員等等我們要有更嚴格的保證他的獨立性等等等等那個地方我們會非常強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8612.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8626.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那在這個前提之下這裡跑出審查這個審查會同意後才得到這樣子允許我個人現在是接受但是前提是審查會我們要盯著看我們今天還沒有討論審查會的組成跟運作來 換林書文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8633.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8650.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
不好意思陳委員 因為看是你現在第一項裡面非經各支保護會審查同意不得對外提供利用如果這個話就是說經各支保護會審查同意就可以都可以提供了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8650.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8674.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以的確是有一點風險那我們現在講的意思是說回到我剛剛講第一項第一項裡面的三款所以我才說要不要對於國家安全人民生命財產的急迫危險要約定認定 健行的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8676.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8698.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個要增加第二項這樣這是我的想法但是現在因為我們署長就很迅速的對訂出這個審查會我現在就說我們改成第四條因為名稱還沒有確認怕名稱會混淆所以這裡應該是說應經第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8702.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8716.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
之後我們再確認那個名稱目前的行政院版本是知議會所以就是第四條我現在要講的意思是說我本來是說以這個COVID-19為例它會有一個特別條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8717.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8731.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那你遇到緊急狀況重大的危難的時候你在訂特別條例的時候其實就要在上面明文規定出來讓我們每個人都有提供的義務這樣子才是比較正本清源 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8732.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8758.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
這樣你也不用擔心但是就是說第二款的國家安全國家安全這個我不曉得到時候會有緊急狀況到什麼程度會來不及因為我們訂那種特別條例都是需要一段時間那會不會有來不及這國家安全我就不知道了但像那種重大的生命身體這種都重大公共衛生傳染病這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8759.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8783.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我覺得好像還實效性上還可以我的意思是說在他們的特別條例裡面去界定然後去要求會比我們去幫他扛責好那在那裡有授權了我們這裡其實就不用再審查了我本來是這樣想那國家安全如果不行的話我們就回到哪有我們這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8785.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8809.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第一是執議會在審國家安全也不太對你知道嗎第二款跟第三款我們是在部裡面的下面搞不好是署裡面的下面的位階要去審國家安全要去審查人民的生命身體財產的急迫危險看起來我再怎麼看都覺得怪怪的位階上 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8810.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8814.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
行政位階低的要去審查行政位階高的人所提出來的問題要阻卻人民退出權的這個權利的你把他用這麼低的知議會的層級要去阻卻他的正當性還有這個急迫性我覺得可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8832.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8861.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
老實說 會被人質疑啦會被人質疑 也不太適當啦所以我正本清源都是還要到第二款第三款叫提出這一個國家安全有緊急需求了這個人民的生命身體財產急迫而緊急需求了提出這個這個需求的人要阻卻我們退出權的這一些機關他們要訂特別法了要訂要來要所有資料的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8862.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8874.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
讓他們去界定進去啦然後我們就提供的義務這應該才是比較正本清源的否則這樣寫我覺得可能會會被質疑來 請王子旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8881.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8903.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
針對這個第19條目前看起來的確要從不要太急著去把它確認它的內容我意思就是說剛剛林書文委員其實講得非常清楚我們如果用現在的方式來處理的話可能會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8904.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8922.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
蠻多需要處理的地方可是我們也希望他能夠未來讓其他的法律根據這部法律的通過以後要做相關的調整所以我覺得那個文字上應該還要更遮掩才能夠達到這樣的目的所以這條是不是先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8923.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8941.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
對啦我再補充一下事實上呢你用國家安全社會緊急危險你叫衛福部的這些審議會執議會要去扛責他扛不住所以變成都只能同意只能同意啊所以我們是扛不住那個壓力的也不應該是我們扛的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8945.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8962.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
跟這個主席跟柯委員報告剛剛確實如果是有特別條例的時候像Kobe這樣其實他會回到那個第十條第一項跟第三項的規定所以他就只有法律授權了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8963.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8987.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對 它的法律上去訂出來之後它就依法來了因為那上面就要有它特別條例上面要有如果它沒有的話也沒有所以未來所有的立法院的立法者要訂特別條例的時候通通都要注意這個事情其實也不是只有因為各支保護會成立了現在每一個法律都要拿出來一一的檢視了每一部法律遇到就要檢視 遇到就要檢視了 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8990.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9011.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
不過剛剛這個陳昭志委員是其實是希望有一個空間啦讓一個空間說除了這個什麼國家重大這個國安問題的啊或者是這個人民共產黨有一個空間所以我們有一點文字修正讓那個陳昭志委員的好意 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9012.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9027.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不是變成開一個很大的門但是還是有所限縮但是也許可以不需要原來的第二款跟第三款我們另有一個新的文字提供那待會再請各位看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9028.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9044.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
就是把第二款第三款就不要了然後弄成第四款的文字然後但是他還是要有一個機制去審查之後那麼這個不得就是不限制退出這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9055.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9080.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這個不行啦,這個門開更大了啦重大公共利益的促進,的健康促進這個門開更大更廣了,這哪裡有限縮這不行啦,大家他也說重大公共利益重大公共利益的健康風險,這太大了太大了,不行了啦,這不行了我只要說癌症防治法,他就可以用這款啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9081.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9092.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
你癌症防治法要叫人家提供的義務你要在你癌症防治法裡面把為什麼而且要提供的時候要進行什麼程序這種東西都要訂上去才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9095.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9111.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這個這一款我看起來是門開更大啦這個可能就是暫時不要討論這沒有辦法沒有跟委員報告其實這個剛剛陳昭志委員就是那個用政府機關購嘛所以我們這個寫法也是這樣這是重大公共利益的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9112.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9139.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
健康風險評估但是他是受政府機關委託是受政府機關委託所以跟剛剛陳昭日委員的政府機關委託那憑什麼讓我們沒有退出權就一個政府機關委託了我就沒有退出權為什麼要給你只要政府機關委託的我就通通沒有退出權呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9140.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9148.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
你要告訴我為什麼是政府機關委託的我們就通通都沒有退出權為什麼這不合理啦 這門開更大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9154.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9175.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
沒有,這個一個新的法律制定,坦白講是要非常嚴謹的啦那你們的原有的第二款,維護國家安全這個你要把這個放上去,基本上就有相關的一些因應的一些更嚴謹的認定的方式嘛,對不對被有人挑戰說這個你沒辦法處理這個是,這當時在 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9181.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9205.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
當時在起這個草案的過程裡面這個起草人應該在現場來做一個好好說明一個政府委託研究就比前面所有的東西都還要偉大然後就我們通通不能退出整部法就到這裡這一條就霸王條款中的最霸王了來林業情委員來 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9206.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9226.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
文字在這個可不可以在第二項改成前項第二款第三款之行使應為事件發生時以特別條例定制這樣你還是保留第二項第三項只是要有個單說我覺得我贊成淑恩委員講到你用一個製衣會審查那真的寬到不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9227.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9242.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所以反而不見得是好事所以反而事實上是如果我們認為要放二三款的話因為我也不贊成你們後來講的第四款二三款的話所以前項第二款第三款之刑時因為事件發生時以特別條例定制這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9249.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9270.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好 沒關係啦 這個林委員在建議的部分你們還是可以思考然後把那個條文草案再弄出來但是你要再增列那個第四款可能大家的擔憂又會更大所以是不是再想一下那我們第19條先保留我們繼續來處理第20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9274.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9295.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
現在進行行政院第二次條條文來審查那對應的委員對應提案的有這個委員黎彥勤、邱正軍、王一鳴、徐宇貞、林淑芬、劉建國還有這個陳昭樹委員的修正動議還有再修正動議我們一併來討論請行政大會來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9302.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9302.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
法則第20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9321.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9338.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
月勤委員有提到一個要把刑責加大我們是寫一年以上七年以下徒刑那月勤委員要處三年以上十年以下徒刑然後那個滑金的部分我們院版是寫一千萬那月勤委員是希望提高到五千萬元這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9358.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9360.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那一如為害國家的應該要五年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9369.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9395.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
來請部長我想健保資料庫是一種關鍵基礎設施所以在健保法就有一定的刑責是不是說我們在這邊的一個法則要不要跟健保法裡面的是一致的所以可能目前行政院版是按照健保法的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9396.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9399.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
建保法是安裝一致建保法裡面是怎麼規範的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9418.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9441.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
健保法八十之一條跟八十之二條當初是為了因應關鍵基礎設施的部分所以我們寫的竊取毀壞還有包括它的有機圖形跟罰金都是跟健保法的一致以上說明是是健保資料因為那邊已經有了然後因為健保的資料呢在行政院裡面它就是被列為關鍵基礎設施以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9445.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9470.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 請法務部是 主席跟各位委員法務部這裡補充一些說明因為是在那個行政院在112年的時候就已經有做就22部涉及保護關鍵基礎設施有加重刑責的修正草案那我們有關資通系統方面核心資通系統的部分也都有一併做考量那所以有已經有一個一致的立法原則跟模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9472.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9486.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
這個專條的方式做特別的罰則那這22部的法令其實都有一個一致性的處理那針對月期委員的版本因為看起來是月期委員的版本有增加一個意圖盈利然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9488.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9511.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
有處三年以上十年以下還有這個犯罪所得應全數沒收這個條文那其他的條文是跟院版一樣那就意圖營利這個條文我們做了一點小小的補充說明就是如果這個這個部分我們尊重委員增訂但是也尊重主管機關的政策決定那可是如果有增訂的必要的話因為委員在這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9513.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9535.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
構成要件的刑度都是一樣的三年以上十年以下那如果真的要訂主管機關也覺得有需求的話那是不是就訂成合併成一項那另外就這個犯罪所得應權數沒收的這個部分因為其實我們刑法的第38條之一已經都有規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9537.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9566.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那而且依照我們刑法第38條之二還有第40條的規定是在符合特定條件之下我們是可以估算認定犯罪所得因為有些狀況沒有辦法估算的沒有辦法全數沒收的我們是有追真的一些條文規定那個刑法的沒收條文其實都有完整的規範那也有那種事實上或法律上不能夠訴追或者判決有罪的情形我們也是可以單獨沒收犯罪所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9567.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9586.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以在這一條就是我們二十條第二項這個部分有沒有必要就這個犯罪所的因權數沒收特別在指名列在這裡的情況我們是認為可能需要再斟酌一下 以上好 我不得這個回應來 請林委員我突然間想到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9593.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9611.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
結構的問題這部法律的名稱叫什麼全民健康保險資料管理條例20條在講什麼破壞基礎設施我以為這一條在講的是說破壞基礎設施去竊取我們的健康資料庫的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9614.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9642.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
結論是說破壞基礎設施你在健保法都有了我們在這裡放這個幹嘛這條應該講的是說你竊取毀壞或者破壞系統而盜取資料我要怎麼處處分你盜取資料是為是以危害國家安全而來盜取資料我要更元首的資料全國的這個被保險人資料然後這個危害國家安全的我要更重的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9643.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9651.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
因為這裡講的是資料那你這裡跟我講基礎設施被破壞基礎設施被破壞是我們本法要關心的嗎你知道這架構的問題我們這裡講的是資料被竊取了我們要怎麼處分你意圖顛覆國家造成國家安全危害然後來竊取我們的資料我要怎麼處分刑責要上他 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9671.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9687.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你跟我講說破壞基礎設施要處分破壞基礎設施是我們這部法要管的內容嗎所以20 21條這是不是有邏輯上有這個整部法律架構上存在放在這裡有必要與否的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9689.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9716.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
問號啊應該是 不用啦 白雷化流健保法都有啊這裡不用放啊 但是這裡要放什麼以竊取毀壞或其他非法方式然後偷竊我們的這些資料 利用我們的這個核心資料系統設備 電腦機房然後去偷竊我們資料 我要刻意行責這樣子才是 這部法要管的而你們這部法沒有管這個在跟我管基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9723.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9745.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
行政機關補充說明齁其實我們在這部法案的第六條我們有序名說主管機關跟保險人因為他要備次電腦、自通系統還有一些必要的相關設施要建置健保資料的相關資料庫所以呢我們呼應為什麼會寫在第二十條那我所提到的關鍵基礎設施只是在佐證說我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9747.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9764.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那個刑責跟罰金應該要有一致性好那沒關係你這樣子放著也可以但我講的說如果是用這個非法手段竊取的那個那個是另外要重重的對啊就後面21條後面21條的部分呢一樣我們的刑度是 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9770.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9794.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
就是如果如果對主管機關或保險人第六條我剛剛補充的剛剛第20條是整體來說因為他有竊取跟毀壞他竊取跟毀壞我的直通系統其實目的就是要取得資料啦概念上他就是要取得資料所以那一塊就回可是你沒有取得資料這個描述的字眼你認為說他破壞這個直通系統就是要取得資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9795.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9823.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這恐怕你的熱法律的明確性和保留原則需不需要再加強上去啊不是啦 它開宗明義就是叫竊取 不然是要竊取什麼東西它竊取的目的是竊取後面建制的支通設備系統的功能正常運作者它是講說竊取毀壞或非法方式去危害它的功能正常運作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9825.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9831.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
不是啦 那你要加上竊取資料啊竊取什麼東西 他的授詞 竊取破壞是動詞他的授詞是什麼 他的授詞是自動設備或電腦機房的功能正常運作者對 當然你說竊取資料包含其中 但我們為什麼不要講得更明白呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9853.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9865.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
竊取的東西受體是什麼那你說功能正常運作他資料竊取走了功能也可以正常運作他的設備功能還完整我的意思是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9869.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9894.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
跟委員報告那個20條跟21條主要是在處理那個硬體跟它的軟體20條是在處理硬體那些資通信設備那21條呢是在處理那個軟體就是那個系統電腦系統資訊系統至於後面呢那麼違法使用資料那個是在22條以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9896.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9912.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
所以24條跟21條我現在不是在講違法使用資料我是講竊取我們系統裡面的資料對那個是在後面處理20條跟21條後面是講那個使用違法使用違法使用跟竊取是兩件行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9913.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9942.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那就在後面處理啦 因為但我的意思是說20條你在那邊講的是好像在妨礙硬體破壞硬體但我是講偷竊軟體偷竊資料啦但是我說你這兩條都沒有明確的指出這一件事你們就認為說這樣子就是直接認為這樣做就是但我說這個立法上 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9943.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9953.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
明明就可以寫得更清楚的應該要寫得更清楚的是不是應該要寫得更清楚你現在是破壞硬體罪20條等於是破壞硬體來 請王志勛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9963.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9990.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我就先發表一下意見剛剛林書偉委員所提到的第20條跟21條在處理上文字上可以更精準包括剛剛署長所提到的第20條看起來是以硬體的破壞或者是毀壞或其他方式去影響到這個硬體的這些完整性為主那21條的話看起來是以竊取為主要的動機之下影響到整個軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9991.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10017.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
造成的資料外洩或是其他的影響所以這部分如果第20條一開封第一款就已竊取看起來就跟這個硬體的部分沒有直接相關或許這邊文字可以再做調整那第21條有關於軟體的部分應該有更完整的敘述來確保整個軟體相關措施或者是一些內容可以更完整這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10018.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10019.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
就能夠把第20條跟21條做比較明確的規範以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10032.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10047.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我想我們在講關鍵基礎設施其實現在在很多地方都有提到其實它的關鍵基礎設施它後面那個CII是Infrastructure其實是比較可以寬廣的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10048.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10074.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
解釋啦 所以怎麼樣去compatible到二十二十一這個部分我覺得大家可以再考慮但是的確都要是有包括硬體跟軟體應該是這樣的解釋啦二十條是硬體 二十一條是軟體那二十一條你講的是入侵干擾無故取得無故取得是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10077.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10094.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為第一款是講入侵嘛第二款是講干擾第三款是取得刪除無故取得刪除對無故取得那我們前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10096.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10121.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那你硬體講竊取講什麼你20條的硬體講的是21條我們在講竊取資料那在法律上用無辜取得就可以了嗎更寬就是說比如說我們裡面有人不是因為業務的需要去取得資料就算他不覺得要竊取啊他還是裡面的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10127.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10146.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
輸入帳號密碼必須要輸入密碼的所以他如果破壞像有些駭客他就破壞他就直接進去入侵然後可以破壞我使用電腦的保護措施所以他會侵入我的電腦裡面所以這個部分呢我們也一樣要比照跟二十條的那個刑度跟法則請您請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10151.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10168.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
可不可以釐清一下因為20條如果講硬體21條講軟體軟體事實上是講是說我們講的那個什麼資通系統和一個是我拿到那裡邊的所有的資料這應該是也有點不太一樣就是說我把 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10170.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10176.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
今天你假設你用一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10192.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10217.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
因為我現在像剛剛講如果事實上是20條的話因為我們擔心的過去還是有販賣個資的問題所以自動系統就直接加上這個所有整體的電池是那所以如果那樣的話我認為我的那部分就是因為我覺得還是要處罰販賣資料的人所以我才會要加這個如果20條事實上你事實上是硬體 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10218.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10245.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那可能就是21條要來考慮這你如果21條是資料的話那我就要可能要放在21條來考量因為你販賣個資的話那個也事實上是對於我們的資料給你們使用的全國的這些資料的話事實上也是受害所以可能如果那樣考量的話我會放在21條以上月井這樣講我再補充就是說第一項裡面講說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10249.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10262.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這個對於這個主管機關建置的核心知通系統那要怎麼處罰你入侵干擾無故取得這一些要怎麼處罰但是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10265.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10288.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個處罰第二項裡面就製造電腦程式去供他人犯前項的犯罪的也同罪那販賣的 販賣的也應該要納入的確是沒錯販賣或是在外面做什麼的行為也一併要納入是沒有錯但是就是說 那所謂自動系統你雖然第三款有講到說電池記錄那我們建制資料庫的核心資 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10290.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10319.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所建置的資通資料庫的核心資通系統及資料需要嗎所以我覺得是系統以外還要加資料吧對 要不要釐清你的電池記錄是這些是什麼因為我們剛剛比較擔心是那個我的所有那個資訊被竊取第一項就是第一項的第一具的系統再加上所有的電池資料吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10321.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10345.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這樣是不是更完整才不會產生誤解然後再來就是第二項的製作電腦程式供他人販前項或者是販賣販賣電池資料或是販賣什麼的通通也一併要一同竊取破壞破壞是前面販賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10351.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10362.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們現在是二十條二十一條一併討論是不是二十條好像就是對因為一個是講設備一個是講軟體對啊就是兩條一併討論啦軟體講的是比較是系統不是我剛剛講的那個資料系統包含資料對啊系統包含資料啊那個HIS系統就是裡面都是有資料系統包含資料系統有點像我們給它寫上去無差啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10382.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10408.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
寫起來沒差系統不是資料啦系統就像作業程式這樣我的意思是說這個法律還是要給人民看的但人民所理解的你當然說在後面法律說明欄裡面立法說明欄可以寫說系統包含什麼什麼什麼通通都寫上去但如果你為了怕人民看不懂那種法律的話當然系統就是包含所謂的所有整體的電池記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10410.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10425.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
還是加什麼資料兩個字但後面的立法說明欄還是要把全部寫清楚你前面寫的資通系統可是你後邊的不管第一款第二款第三款講的都沒有讓人家理解真的是在講的是資料欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10427.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10442.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
難道資通系統這四個字就代表事實上有含到資料嗎因為過往我們講系統系統講軟體事實上是作業系統那可是你說是涵蓋可是一二三款都沒有讓人家理解說那個是含資料的好那主席那我是不是主席我我化驗一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10458.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10458.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我以為妳不給我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10461.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10489.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
是 好主席那我現在是針對21條就是說針對危害這個功能正常運作的這個處罰那有一種情況就是管理者濫用的這種情況所以我們是不是也要去研擬就是針對妨礙資料系統的行為人如果是主管機關或者是委外機關人員的時候是不是要加重這個罰則所以有的是堅守自盜所以我覺得這個是不是要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10491.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10519.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
對 就是加重發財 是不是這個也要把它加進去我支持黃秀芳委員講的 堅守治道的人那個就是你所從事的業務你還給他堅守治道的話一定要比一般人竊取的入侵的他加更重 加重二分之一或三分之一至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10521.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10536.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這樣子才能夠 這樣子才能夠遏止這個犯罪的立場但是我告訴你 外面的錢又開下去那拿錢給他 搞不好他也一樣這樣加重 從二分之一起跳至少二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10539.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10568.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
行政單位說明二十條的部分它有只要有竊取毀壞的行為這裡我是一指所有人也是包含所有人只要有這種行為這裡的那個刑度跟罰金原來就已經比刑法還更重了我們在這裡就是要加另外一項就是說這個業務執行業務人員所犯該罪從加重二分之一至少 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10571.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10600.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這個建立是行政單位可供參考啦這有嚇阻捐贖自盜的這個人為的行徑啦我講錯了啦你怎麼這樣說不下去你去查啦另外一個在說明欄裡面其實坦白講都已經有講到你們大家質疑的也擔心的相關的一些資料啦有時候但我也是不曉得為什麼在文法裡面你這個資料兩個字都不提供但是在說明欄裡面是有相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10601.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10615.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
一些一些很清楚的說明以上補充來李業勤委員所以可不可以請行政單位整理加重處罰的條件跟處罰第一個危害國家安全第二個意圖盈利第三個執行業務的人員這三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10624.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10635.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
看起來二十、二一、二二我再稍微延伸到二二其實如果針對二十的話是硬體為主二一是以軟體跟系統的處理為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10638.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10665.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那如果相關的資料的一些使用不當使用或者是造成不當影響的話相關的法則還有包括所提到的如何針對於管理者造成的這個不當影響可以把它放在23條做一些相關的處罰上的這些應用模式這樣的話三個放在一起就會相當的完整以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10667.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10695.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好 我們因此上還是二一二二一先討論 好不好當然我也建議因為等一下還有林蔚琴委員的個別的二十二條跟二十三條那請林淑媛各位我們是就具體建議因為系統再加上資料兩個字如果沒有不可的話我們就給它寫上去因為我一直在講說法律是要讓人民看的不是給立法者看的然後這個法律的立法說明欄只有我們現在才可以看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10696.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10724.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
一般人還要上網去查詢所以那不是可敬性相當高也沒有幾個人會查詢立法說明欄所以基本上就法律的可敬性要讓人民使用的法律越清楚越好如果沒有不行的加上資料兩個字讓人家一目了然這個是我認為是應該要的第二個大家在講了很多遍可是都沒有討論就是說啊你提供犯罪這些的電腦程式的人同意同罪那 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10724.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10740.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那拿去使用販賣等等的非法使用販賣等等的難道不用嗎所以這個在外面販售的這些資料的非法在使用的也是要同罪啊來請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10763.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10786.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
跟召委跟委員報告那個第21條因為他的體力是參照我們刑法第36章妨礙電腦使用罪他的文字用語也都跟第358條到第360條的文字是一樣的那如果說我們這邊做文字不一樣的調整的話比較擔心會對於實務上已經有的認定產生妨礙以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10793.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10817.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
沒錯啊他這樣講是說為了銜接這個刑法第38章那加上資料那個兩個字就會有認定上的問題嗎叫法務部的說明啊是跟委員報告因為像當初在修訂這些法律的文字的時候其實我們大概都有考慮到就是要立法的一致性因為其實這些文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10818.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10840.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
應該是跟其他的法律是我們是有配套配合的那電磁記錄到底是不是含資料其實過去應該是看起來我們是認定是他應該是電磁記錄是指以電子磁性光學或其他相類方式製成供電腦處理的數位資料包含網路資料硬碟檔案雲端資料數位照片影片這些實質內容所以我們過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10842.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10868.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
大概就會認為電磁記錄本身是有包含資料也是一種數位資訊的具體表現的形式啦那當然這個部分可能還是需要就我們過去一直都有這樣的認知所以如果委員們覺得說這個電磁記錄不足以表示資料而要加進去的話剛剛那個應該是速發部的代表的意見其實我們你可能都沒有聽清楚我講我們大家在講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10869.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10888.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
系統而不是電池記錄我們在講的是第一項第一句話你去看第一項第一句話第一項第一句話所建置的核心之通系統及資料我們知道電池記錄就涵蓋所有我們把它修正成我們把它修正成那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10893.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10904.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
主管機關或保險人以第六條第一項所建置之核心資通系統及資料庫可以這樣就清楚了應該是這樣比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10907.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10936.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
就是對主管機關或保險人依第六條影響所建置之核心之通系統及資料庫你這一句話跟你們當時原始的版本是不一樣的喔你原始的條文是講資料庫的系統喔啊這裡是你的建置的系統加資料庫喔所以你現在才是完整的以前是只有涵蓋系統而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10943.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10950.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那如果事實上是資料放事實上是在21條的話那當時我把20條的第二項要挪移到我們的21條加在第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10967.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10990.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
就是把意圖盈利這一項把它加放在我們的21條的第三項以上主管機關有沒有意見就是我剛剛提的原來我寫在20條的第二項要放在21條的第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10993.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10997.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
健治治療庫治核心健治核心治治療庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10998.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11023.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為前委員您所提的我們是可以把它加在二十一條二十一條的第三項一二三意圖危害國家安全可以嗎論好社會安定或意圖營利者或意圖營路或營利或營利不要意圖或營利或營利而犯前兩項是罪責這樣子或營利不要寫應途 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11030.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11032.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
法務部這樣的字眼是好的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11054.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11069.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們剛剛的建議就是如果型度是一樣的我們可以合併成一條會比較合適是然後我們那個咧加重的好這個我同意喔好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11084.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11085.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
上面那一項 上面那一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11122.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11150.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
委員們是想請問一下那個委員們是意思是說就是從事業務之人利用職務上的機會犯就是犯前面幾款幾項的事有時候要加重嗎那這樣的話我們是建議是不是比照那個刑法204條第二項的那個立法體例那就是從事業務之人利用職務上機會犯前項之罪者加重其刑至二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11151.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11161.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這樣子的體力同時業務資源涵蓋什麼就是我一直說比照這個就是前面三項的那個含公部門的嗎那也含學術跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11176.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11186.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我們原來第7條裡面就有明定說健保吃辣肉吃特定目的外利用管理是由主管機關及保險人為之所以這裡就是指的由主管機關保險人為之這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11188.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11211.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
對 那我們立法說明欄寫上去就是說從事業務的人細指這個主管機關及對啦 所屬公務員等等因為堅守之道是最可惡而且容易被利益所誘惑那就直接販賣了 那更可惡那個太方便了從事業務之人利用職務上機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11215.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11229.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
從事業務之人利用職務上機會但我相信我們現在所有公務員都不會做這種事了犯前三項之罪者這是預防條款而已然後加重其罪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11246.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11269.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
加重其刑至二分之一加重二分之一還是加重其刑至二分之一加重其刑這個法務部是這樣子啊那你會舉例說給我們聽這個加重其刑加重二分之一的其刑和加重其刑至二分之一的差異是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11272.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11297.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這個加重期刑至二分之一就是原來的刑度再加重到二分就是像危害國家安全他會怎麼加重如果譬如說三年以上十年以下這種他會怎麼加重最重的話那個刑度最高如果是十年的話那就是十五年 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11299.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11326.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
對 加重期刑至二分之一 最重到十五應該是到十五年 那加重二分之一的我們過去的立法體例大概都是這樣加重期刑至二分之一因為這好像我沒搞 以前就討論過以前有討論過這個這個在哪哪一些修法上有討論不一樣的概念有不一樣的概念喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11329.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11356.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
主席我想請問一下那個名詞的部分請說明請問署長 請問署長你那個從事業務之人齁那之前那個前主秘葉佛明齁因為他沒有權限去取那個資料結果他就鎖死那個城堡組的組長去做那件事那個是已經大爆發了他是屬於業務之人嗎是齁 你的解釋範圍是齁他本身沒有權限用資料 他之前有權限的人去用不能漏掉喔 這確認的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11362.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11379.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
好各位同仁看這樣修正的文字還有什麼地方要來 請說明來 來 署長頓浩啦 犯前三項 那個犯的前面沒有逗號應該是直接過來從事業務之人利用職務上機會犯前三項之罪者到這裡好 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11382.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11399.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
如果21條是這樣子的,20條要不要如果是被收買了,然後去破壞硬體建保法要修總是業務人故意破壞硬體咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11417.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11418.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
第二十三甲 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11456.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11471.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
如果這個字二分之一的話上加一天也叫做二分之一可是感覺本來這一條本來是像要針對這個執行業務的人可能要更高的期許是他不可以做這可是否這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11474.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11491.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我認為應該至少二分之一可是現在變成至二分之一最高就是到二分之一而已那可是所以意味著說加一天加一個月都叫二分之一以內這個就是修法的時候以前就有被討論過了至少二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11496.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11518.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這個就之前就被討論過說這個有巧門啊或者加一天也是二分之一以內或加一個月都是因為我們過去的立法例其實那個我們是是不一樣啦可是這個變成是最高上限因為這個加進去變成沒有什麼很大差別如果加一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11519.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11545.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
加兩天都是至二分之一啊對這是法官的裁量權當然你說法官裁量權可是我們本來就是期待就是你執行業務的人比較容易取得資料的話不可以去做這種事情我們是要加重二分之一啦不是加一天不是加一個月的啦那如果是這樣可能就是加重期刑二分之一但是這樣的立法例過去很少見大概只有一個法或兩個法這就是從重的才會加重對啊所以你剛才呼嚨我騙我我在問你這個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11548.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11575.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你們當然都覺得希望行不要到我們公務員來不要加那麼重啦法官就沒有裁量權然後我們過去的立法體力的確不論比例啊因為很多都有比例原則的問題所以如果我們沒有那個字那個字是最高上限的概念啦我們不能訂一個字少但是無上限它可能加重之後比本行要高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11576.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11601.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
所以所以那個那個家種自哪裡那個是一個上限的概念就好像我們所有的條文的處分都有幾年以上幾年以下這樣不然就會變無期徒刑啦那這樣子的話我們要不要另外一項啊就是從事業務之人利用職務上犯前三項前兩項之罪啊那處五年以上十年以下五年以上十年以下就特別條款啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11608.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11633.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
具體的情節可能都不太一樣公務員你利用植物製片你去這個你去這個入侵干擾無故取得那個就像警察當警察變成小偷警察去拍人家的隱私照片利用植物然後賣給這個創意私房的今天來昨天的報導判14年 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11635.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11660.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這如果不判14年我們都還嫌不夠咧警察然後跟小女孩製作比喻說你當時是怎麼被拍的你知識擺給我看我再拍一遍然後拿去賣給創意私房就是活生生的例子就是這樣所以這麼惡質的而且是利用職務資源入侵然後偷取這個資料我們不給他加重的話跟一般人一樣重的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11662.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11677.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那大家錢沒了就沒走所以五年以上十年以下我們的人不會犯法不會做這種事情所以這一條這貝兒不用你們都用不到的你們大家都用不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11679.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11708.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
別人這樣寫 沒有人會用到寫上去了 會怕就不可以做你不做就不會被這條刑法把你拔掉 你就不用怕你不做派對就不用怕跟委員報告那這樣是不是要可能要考量一下整體的那個比例性比例原則就是跟其他的條文就是你建議一下 我們可以聽然後健保法一併修 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11709.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11731.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
健保法一併修這可以法律法律上那條法律也要這條也要這樣一樣的行為一樣的罪因為你是植物之便最容易拿到的你去做因為人家花錢你買的就走你就拿出去外面沒有人你一個都是業務之人不用比外面的人更重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11733.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11751.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
對啦 再補充說明一下 參事應該這麼講吧因為你們行法204條就已經有規範了對不對應該就是說從事業務之人利用職務上機會換錢相之罪者大大大大嘛 那個錢相就是指各個領域我們這裡是特別法 我們這裡是特別法 優於普通法 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11751.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11757.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
特別法要特別立法我不要用普通的行法那普通的行法加一天也是二分之一加一個月也是二分之一中華民國的刑法有分普通還有什麼中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11768.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11780.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎林委員林委員你特別法是還特別法但中華民國的刑法有分普通跟不普通嗎不是啦我們現在要處理特別法沒有錯但是你不要去講說中華民國什麼叫做普通刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11794.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11815.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
中華民國的刑法沒有普通跟不普通啦沒有啦,不要創造沒有必要的那種名字出來啦大家在討論,大家在討論,你再講越人差離我我們在講越應該尊重別人的講法中華民國的刑法沒有普通跟不普通好,休息,休息文章給他討論,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11821.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11849.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
有當時有分作普通或不普通有的普通法跟特別法沒有錯但是中華民國的新法中華民國的新法沒有普通跟不普通可以請法務部參事解釋你我都允許解釋請官參事來解釋中華民國的新法有分作普通跟不普通嗎我講特別法特別法有 特別法沒有 無論有特別法我沒有講不普通三個字 我講特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11849.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11878.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那你剛剛講說什麼普通刑法 什麼叫普通刑法我第一次聽到這種用詞簡直普通法 普通法管理條例是特別法自己講就是不普通 是你自己講的我講的是特別法對啊 刑法普通啊管理條例是特別法管理條例是特別法刑法是普通刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11881.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11886.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
刑法是普通法啦,相對管理條例啦,罵不罵,不要說啦當召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12014.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12014.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12522.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12542.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
好,我們繼續開會來,要不要把文字弄出來,再給各位委員做參考來,各位委員看這些文字還有什麼地方要做修正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12545.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12557.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
加重二分之一啦 七千加重二分之一加六 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12593.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12602.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12623.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12638.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
對 怎麼修成這樣全部都是前兩項加重其形 二分之一是指第二項那個是第幾項 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12655.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12675.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
其形加重二分之一加重其形二分之一字拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12678.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12705.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
對 從事業務之人利用職務上機會犯前兩項前面是不是兩項二十條一二十條是兩項 對對 二十條是兩項犯前兩項之罪者加重其刑二分之一來 各位同仁看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12708.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12722.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個OK啊就是二十條要加嘛 二十一條要加對 那接下來二十一我們一條一條處理好不好 先二十條看各位同仁有沒有什麼意見沒有意見好 二十條沒有意見 那現在換二十一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12735.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12752.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
二十一條的部分是上面還有一個資通系統對不對最上面二十一條一第六條所建那後面的第一項第二項第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12757.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12778.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
第三項 意圖危害國家安全意圖危害國家安全 盾號 社會安定或盈利那最後再加一個 加重即行二分之一所以那個字要拿掉對 字拿掉沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12782.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12808.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好 其他委員有沒有意見沒有齁好那我們第一 剛剛就是病案來處理二十一條跟二十二條嘛對不起 二十跟二十一 好那第二十條就照文字這樣來修正通過然後第二十一條也是照這樣的文字來做修正通過好 謝謝那接下來處理林業勤委員的第二十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12811.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12836.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
請刑事機關表示意見月期委員所提的這個部分剛剛我們已經加在21條在21條因為這是盈利使用所以我們已經加在21條有把盈利的部分加在上面而且現在有加這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12838.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12861.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
齊刑二分之一那至於犯罪所的因權數沒收因為剛剛法務部的參事有表示因為那個刑法那邊都有規範所以是不是這個就我們可不可以就是這個版本沒有問題好就沒有了好 林委員22條就不予處理好 那接下來林業勤委員所提的第23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12865.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12881.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因為他會涉及到我本條例的第九條關於申請者限定就是大學法人或學術研究機構等等所以那這個部分是不是保留等到回到第九條的時候再來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12882.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12901.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
可以啦,那就先行保留好,接下來我們處理第22條林業勤委員是第24條還有邱振興委員、王育敏委員、徐宇辰委員、林淑媛、劉建國委員等全部都是所提22條然後有這個陳昭志委員所提的修正動議來,我們一併來討論,請新機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12905.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12921.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
有關於22條違反本條例第11條第一項規定的這個部分這邊採的是行政法那各個委員的版本都跟院版是一樣的所以是不是就可以採院版通過 以上請 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12924.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12952.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我有疑問就是說這裡講的是民間當然也有政府機關行政法人還有學術機關還有醫院違反第11條第一項規定未經主管機關或保險人合準擅自就健保資料為特定目的外置利用我的疑問是說你不是說他們不能資料洗出嗎一定是合準後才能進去裡面那為什麼會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12956.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12976.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
會友還沒有核准就可以取得資料然後擅自利用這條的說明是指說他如果這是第11條第1項規定沒有經過主管機關核准沒有經過核准他擅自就健保資料為特定目的外利用基本上他本來就是要經過我核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12976.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
13002.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
才可以進來跑資料嗎現在這條寫的意思是說沒有經過我核准他沒有經過你核准怎麼會可以進來跑資料呢然後又做目的外呢我的疑問是在這裡比如說這些健保所謂的健保資料也有可能在醫院裡面我們的健保資料來自醫院醫院上傳的啊對啊那也是目的外利用喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
13002.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
13025.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
他有可能變成戶地外利用那這種要不要刻意行則你現在是行政法嘛那這種要不要刻意行則因為我覺得我們各自被利用的太腐爛了然後大家都沒有在處理大家可以討論這要不要刻意行則我們的第一手資料來自於醫院然後醫院大量不用販賣出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
13027.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
13044.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
現在還發生醫院當然那個媒體報導的不見得是真實的現在發現說醫院然後他也沒有進到這個保護的醫務被竊取個資但也有可能醫院的內神通外鬼然後他就賣出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
13045.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
13066.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
也有可能像我們我就跟你講我們車貸中心的車貸中心的銀行的每次去辦一個貸款出來以後所有的簡訊都來了很腐爛耶那這種狀況要不要刻以行則大家要不要看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
13071.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
13093.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
他們這類似監守制道啊我們業務單位公家機關監守制道的更加重但如果這裡這裡這一種就是監守制道我去看一看你就把我全部都賣出去啊你行政法是罰醫院所以那個監守制道的人不痛不癢因為這這罰醫院的嘛罰機構的嘛還是罰學校的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
13098.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
13122.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
但是這個回到各支法各支法有規範嗎行政單位這裡補充所謂的未依未沒有經過主管機關或保險核准因為我們核准他因為他送進來的時候他一定有他的研究範圍跟研究目的所以他一定要寫清楚那經過我核准之後呢他應該要照他的研究範圍跟研究目的進來跑資料結果他沒有他擅自就健保資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
13124.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
13148.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
就去處理你現在說的跟剛才署長說的不一樣署長是說醫院就自己拿出去目的外利用你現在說的是所核准的核准的主題跟他目的利用的真正用途又不一樣這是用途不一致他講的是醫院你講的是已經核准了但他進來跑資料跑的跟你核准的內容不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
13149.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
13161.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以這是兩件事所以我的疑問一開始就問你這裡所要規範的那個那個對象那個犯罪行為不違法行為到底是什麼你要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
13170.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
13195.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
是要不符合我們審查會審查通過的這個研究計畫是要規範這些不符合跟你審核通過的研究計畫不符合要給處分還是說在醫院他就自行把個資販賣出去然後做目的外利用了因為醫院有一些臨床有一些的確是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
13196.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
13206.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
像細胞治療啦再生醫療啦然後這些東西就直接拿去給給藥廠然後非法的就是看療效了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
13207.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
13225.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
有可能啊還是這兩種通通都要規範下去跟委員說明剛剛那一種情形那麼可以用個資法處理的還有刑責那個有刑責那麼我們現在在處理可能還是回到本法屬於第11條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
13227.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
13251.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
他變更就沒有經過核准變更原本的這個計畫他的那個研究計畫所以是第一時間你的回答是錯誤的嗎對那是另外一個但是你講這樣我聽得懂但是你的法律條文沒有任何一個人看得懂你的法律條文這樣子寫沒有任何一個人知道你所指的擅自的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
13254.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
13254.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
來 請國務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
13273.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
13289.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
如果依照第22條這樣的寫法真的會造成醫院或者是醫療機構很大的困擾或者是擔心所以裡面應該要更清楚的就是如果是針對於已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
13290.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
13316.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
核准或者是預期要使用的這個目的外利用必須要規範的非常清楚不然你做研究的人到時候出問題的機會很大你如果引用這一條來處理的話那個會非常的風險非常的大所以林書豐委員講的非常正確啦就是你如何把你本來要規範的事情規範的很完整同時是 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
13317.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
13322.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
超出這個當初規範的處理方式才是這一條要定的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
13326.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
13346.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
跟委員補充報告就是各位有記得我們在105年以前當初的資料是委託給國衛院去做處理光碟對是是所以這一條呢其實概念上最主要是要因為那個部分的健保署後面都有在追蹤跟處理現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
13348.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13376.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
你講的又是第三種犯罪樣態違規樣態喔你講的是說他到你裡面來然後給你複製重製然後再拿出去外面就是說未經主管機關跟保險人核准就是所以我跟你講就是說現在是不會有這種情形以我們現在在安全作業環境下去跑資料的話我聽懂啦但道高一尺 謀高一丈嘛也有可能是重製然後偷出去外面的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13377.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13397.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
有沒有可能到高一尺磨高一丈你想像不到的然後你會發現但是都事後了事後有沒有可能這種也是在你的這個規範範圍裡面那這種是不是要刻意行走主席來 林議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13398.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13411.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我想問一下你的處罰對象是誰如果是醫院的話可能法律要明定到底誰受罰是醫院負責人還是資料管理者還是行為者這三個是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13412.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13435.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以你到底要誰受罰總的來說你這條法律寫得非常不清楚這樣的規範我們不知道你講的違規樣態紫色的是什麼然後你處分的對象要找誰那因為違規的樣態不一樣所以又討論到說你非法重置了有辦法重置有沒有可能真的有辦法重置那這一種要不要刻以刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13437.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13453.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
因為在那裡在你們空間裡面不能重置結果你他重置了這一種非常惡質惡性重大而且他重置以後可以出去外面不斷的重置那這個對侵害的這個侵害的法益是相當強的這個沒有刻以行則是不行的如果我個人來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13457.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13474.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你先就我們這三個問題好好地講清楚你到底要處罰的狀況是什麼違規樣態你的違規樣態都沒有講清楚講的好像是說擅自就拿去做特定目的外利用者 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13475.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13491.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那到底是什麼狀況我再重述一次我們的立法說明我們的立法說明寫到說就健保資料特定目的外的利用申請者除了第十條規定第十條規定就是政府機關依法定職長 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13492.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13512.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
因依第十一條第一項就是現在所說的學術研究被妥申請書籍特定目的外利用計劃那這個要經過主管機關或保險人審查核准後使得為之所以我這裡是定明說如果擅自為健保資料的特定目的外利用的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13513.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13533.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
并且处罚送达之日起一年内后面有一个就是我除了要管制他申请特定目的外利用还有他已经取得了健保资料英语消费这个里面的应取得的健保资料就是我刚刚提到的之前因为国会院我听不懂我还是听不懂那我唯一可以想象的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13534.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13553.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
你們一再說謊的我們說外面的光碟還有沒有你們都說沒有了事實上光碟還在外面流竄你是不是在講要處罰這個否則的話沒有核准就不能到你們的小房間就不能夠目的外利用怎麼還會有這一條條款呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13559.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13582.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
所以你們在講是以前你們政府賣光碟時代那些光碟包括交通部包括這個其他的機關購學術機構來給你買的那些光碟還在外面非法的在使用你就講清楚嘛你就不願意正視這件事情如果是從民國90幾年到104年的這一件事我就聽懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13583.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13589.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
但你在寫這樣的愛愛妹妹我們不知道你這一條到底要處分什麼違規樣態看不啊這條你們要解釋清楚你們這樣說我們聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13596.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13622.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
來 接著請陳清雲委員我詢問一下署長還有我們主管機關這一條你們的意思應該是說如果他已經有繳交企劃書但是他做了這個計劃書之外的內容的運用這一條應該是針對這樣子的處罰 對所以你們的意思是說如果他還是把資料洩漏出去本來就會有個資法跟刑法來處理嘛但是你這個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13623.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13630.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
你這條特別針對的樣態是說他做了他計劃書以外的範圍嗎是這個意思嗎是是對就是理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13641.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13669.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你從頭到尾現在講四種了不好意思那個我跟同仁在討論完之後因為那個違反他本來的計畫去執行在下一條可以處理23條可以處理那這一條應該要處理是剛剛林委員提到的我們規定是不得已吸出我們的資料他只能吸出結果結果他如果去吸出資料那應該這個是比較重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13670.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13676.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
這條是比較長的啦這個的處罰是比較高的這個是到一千萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13678.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13701.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那後面那個23條有那個違反使用規定那這個指定時間地點去執行或者是計劃內容那個第二款23條的第二款它是原本的計劃內容它沒有來做修正變更那麼沒有經過核准就執行那個都在後面第23條處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13703.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13730.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
所以這邊我們再修正一下文字是不是因為這是比較重的來以這個擅自吸出利用來處理這樣就是他把資料拋出去啦等於是阿你不是說不可能啦你不是說不可以複製的所以我剛剛開始講說這個是不是在你們的小房間裡面擅自重製拿出去的阿你們又告訴我們說不可能重製 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13733.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13738.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
然後這個到底是不是跟之前已經販賣出去的光碟仍然在外面流竄有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13744.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13768.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13768.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13776.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那一些規定要銷毀沒有銷毀的然後還在外面流竄的持有的還在利用的怎麼處分我告訴你這兩條他們說不清楚這條說不清楚讓他們再想一下你們學院單位坦白講對這個草案應該應該要有很 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13792.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13802.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
很能夠理解然後對委員的說明要很清楚才對啦那很多事情也不是華麗定的就什麼事情都不可能發生很多事情都持續在 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13808.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13827.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
很清楚以外我剛剛講的販賣的那些光碟因銷毀而未銷毀而在外面還不斷地重製然後在外面不斷地利用還在外面不斷地流竄的那一些違法的樣態一併就這個機會納管然後有處分的機制是不是應該要一併討論進去啊沒有齁我們大家整天要很謙虛他們賣出去那些光碟在外面還在亂用跟他們都沒有關係這樣賣贏的 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13840.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13856.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好 請行政機關面對委員的相關的一些擔憂跟質疑要看怎樣具體的然後透過這個法律的修正去把它更嚴謹化好不好22條我們先保留好不好來 接下來我們處理第23 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13858.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13865.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
23條 驗板23條 林業勤委員25條邱振軍 王玉敏 徐宇貞 林淑溫 劉建國等是23條邱振東有王玉敏委員邱振東還有陳昭志委員在邱振東那請先機關做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13881.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13908.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
二十三條的部分是特別針對我們這本條例所提到的第十一條第一項沒有經過核准計劃內容執行還有一些變更展言核准之特定目的外利用沒有經申請就核准就使用以及我們有要求要指定的方式時間來執行資料的特定目的外利用還有也有禁止吸出等等十四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13909.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13918.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
原則上就是我們現在所有條例裡面所立定的如果沒有依照條例所寫的說明的話我們在23條都會處心台幣50萬元到250萬元以上罰款並且 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13926.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13927.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
幾位委員的版本呢都是跟院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13942.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13945.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13968.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13996.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那如果沒有那第23條我們就照院版的條文來通過了好謝謝那接續我們出於第24條有行政委員所提的版本還有林業勤委員第26條邱正軍委員、王毅委員、徐議政委員、李淑媛、劉靜文委員等全部都所提24條還有這個陳昭志委員所提的修正再修正動議請行政機關來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13999.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
14004.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
24條說明的是如果依照前面所提到的22條跟23條規定處罰者那麼會由主管機關跟保險處實際處期實際處期實際為 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
14015.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
14040.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
行為之人那新台幣五萬元到五十萬元的一項罰班第二項續名如果前項行為之人呢具有醫事人員資格且違反醫事人員專門職業法律規定則並依各該法律懲處之那這個部分各委員的條版各委員的版本都與院版的文字內容是相同以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
14042.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
14048.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好 各位有沒有其他意見沒有那我們是不是就照院版的條例來通過好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
14051.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
14070.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
第24條我們就照月滿條例通過那接下來我們處理第25 行政委員所提的25條林業勤委員是27條那其他邱正義委員 王育敏委員 徐議政委員 李淑媛 劉靜雯委員等所提25條還有陳昭志委員所提的再修正動議我們一定要討論 請行政機關來做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
14073.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
14094.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
25條我們所擬定的是一個過度條款也就是本條例施行以前只要經過核准特定目的外利用健保資料呢在這個條例施行後他仍然可以繼續利用但是他雖然申請通過了但是他後面的繼續利用呢還是准用我們本條例第11條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
14096.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
14123.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
與第三項 第十二條到第十五項規定 簡單的說他後面不管他是變更或展延 以及後面要求要繳交一些使用結果的報告 通通要依照我的條文去做處理然後幾位委員的的版本也都跟院版一樣 以上說明然後各位有沒有其他 來 林俊文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
14126.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
14148.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這個是不是包含光碟包含光碟嗎來請說明即便不包含光碟那我們的處分要不要也準用這裡所提到你講的是只準用11 1215 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
14154.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
14178.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
對這裡提的是說因為在我這個條例施行以前那已經經過主管機關跟保險人已經核准特定目的外利用了已經核准他的研究計畫跟研究範圍那麼在這個條例施行後呢他後面後面因為他還沒有跑完他還沒有run完嘛他只是核准他來我問題是他這有沒有包含光碟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
14180.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
14201.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
因為以前光碟是直接賣給他資料在他手上你通通都不知道啊那我們要不要訂一條光碟特別處理條例一條專門處理光碟的這個是沒有光碟的到就過去在現判說違憲以前你們就已經合訂的這個研究計畫嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
14204.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
14227.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這個在你們小房間裡面跑資料的是不是對嘛所以就是還在小房間但這個不包含光碟喔光碟跟這個不一樣喔所以整部法律都沒有討論到光碟25條所寫的是我的規範是規範來跟我申請學術研究的申請單位對啊那他要不要試用22條要不要試用23條要嗎準用準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
14232.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
14249.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
就是因為他的沒有啊 你現在只准用11 12跟15條啊那個是指 准用後面的第12條到15條的規定還有第11條第二項的規定但是呢 我在22條裡面都有分別去敘述說22條跟23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
14253.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
14272.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
都有趣名如果違反第11條12條OK好我懂違反效果他都要試用那為什麼我們不直接就總部法律都准用了這樣講就不會過彎路易了跟委員說明因為我們核准之前因為我們現在有一個退出 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
14272.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
14293.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
有一個退出權所以他除了退出權以外是不是應該這樣講除了什麼和什麼以外其餘全部准用所以我們這裡寫是說核准特地目的利用健保資料也就是他的計劃已經經過我們核准了已經過我們核准了表示他連資料都確認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
14296.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
14316.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
但是我的意思是說 除了哪一條 哪一項 哪一款的狀況以外 其他都准用啊然後接下來我們應該要再訂一條光碟時代的這些光碟的處理的光碟 它那大量慢慢出去 它那不是去人家小房間跑資料餒是資料全部都扣給人家 整個台灣都有的 那很多人的啦你叫他銷毀他也沒銷毀的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
14322.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
14332.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
就應該訂一條特別公帖條款如果有幾年到幾年之間買透過國衛院買到的這些公帖的資料應該一律銷毀不銷毀的話可以行者什麼什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
14334.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14353.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
委員我先說明就是我這裡講的核准特地目的外利用的健保資料關於要適用他只要違反我的一些規定的話那個都在23條裡面都分別有違反第11條13條14條我現在講的是準用先準用再來談違反就有違反了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14355.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14375.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
因為這個就是過度條款嘛所以他准用到第11條第2項這些使用規定違反的話呢在前面的23條那邊也都寫了法則這個是適用啊准用他的那個我們已經核准過的等於讓他能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14376.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14403.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
按照他後面的那個變更啊什麼的不用重新申請不用重新申請不用退出權然後現在就是說也不用再審查那個計畫啦你的意思是這樣子啦變更還是要來第11條的對他有如果變更的話他還是要準用所以你沒有準用全部意思是說因為前面還有一些程序讓他不用再跑了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14406.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14426.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
一定在做的啊 已經在做的但是我們還有一些更限縮的像第11條的第11條我的意思我們也是怕你們沒有想到的沒有漏掉的 沒有規範到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14443.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14445.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
你們機關單位的機關單位的 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14452.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14477.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
委員指的是我第十條所講的政府機關構嗎政府機關構基本上它是只要它提的出來對 它只要提出來它所依據的那個職權的法律因為在這個本條例之前政府機關構也有跟你們申請的嘛是 然後它都要依照它的本有的法定職長的法律授權才能來跟我們講 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14479.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14503.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
現有的這個第十條第一項的來的嗎沒有更你本來有更開放的嗎沒有沒有沒有好啦理論上應該如果是這樣子就限定在這幾個就不用再重新跑前面的程序不用再同意權和退出權這樣子而已類似信賴保護原則就是了 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14505.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14516.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
嗯 好吧 暫時是先這樣子 那我們要光碟要怎麼處理光碟一併放在這裡沒有啦 要入法啦 要靠以行者啦我們就 不然這條 這條啦 就是這個這條就是25條 本條例施行前22條啦剛剛22條要保留對 沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14539.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14567.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
沒有啦22條講的是其實就是核定的裡面然後他違反規定啦但我們現在不是我們現在講本法實行前已經買的光碟因餘力銷毀啦不銷毀的可以刑責這樣就好了啦起碼不許簡單的講就不允許再使用以前舊光碟的那些資料而且擁有的人應該要馬上就銷毀啦只要舊光碟拿出來用就違反法律就可以刑責了 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14570.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14597.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
您國在舊光碟時代剛好確定每一片光碟都銷毀?有沒有?沒有我們一定要利用這個機會叫那些都變成非法健保幾年了?健保幾年了?三十年?九十五年啦,九十五年賣到一百零四年啦,一百零五 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14599.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14607.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
賣了十年了很多人手上有叫他們要銷毀我們那個人體金庫還是哪一部法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14609.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14629.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
也是叫他們要把叫醫院把沒有取得同意的通通都要銷毀那些樣題那個樣本通通要銷毀啊醫院 生物資料庫對醫院很捨不得我這個這麼捨這麼可是當時的法律就要求要銷毀啊那個沒有取得同意就是這樣子那我們這個沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14632.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14660.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那個以前太誇張了誇張到整片光碟賣出去你還不叫他銷毀那麼大量的資料對多大的那個侵害啊我們在25條裡面規定本法本條例施行前啊像什麼機構像你們國務院所販售的這個光碟取的光碟或者是在外面自行重置的都一律要銷毀那如果沒有銷毀然後經查獲發現的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14663.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14683.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
就刻意行責而且他應該重置很多遍了那一直哭 唉唷 我有一個這個今天你要愛我 我給你來 25條是不是我們先保留啦 然後林委員建議的你們就把那個條文弄出來 好不好好 那我們繼續來處理第26條 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14686.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14710.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
26條有院辦所提 林衛生委員28條那其餘邱振興委員 王玉敏委員 徐政委 林淑媛 劉靜委員所提26條那還有陳昭之委員所提的修正 再修正動議林委員這個應該沒有多大問題啦這是事先細則對啊就照院辦的條文通過啦好不好好謝謝然後繼續第27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14713.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14734.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
第二十七條寫的是本條例的施行日期有行政院定之各位委員應該沒有其他意見那我們就照原版條文通過好 我們第一文完成了然後我們等一下接續讓這個議事組還有我們相關的官員同仁休息一下然後也請把這個第一文有討論過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14735.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14763.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
保留的部分還有調次的一些調整是不是再用一個比較明確的對照表出來然後剛剛有委員建議的在相關的一些條文針對過去的這些情況必須要加以來重演認定的法條然後這草案也弄出來跟這位所提的委員來做一些討論然後等一下我們再進入這個第二輪的討論那是不是我們就20分鐘好不好可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14768.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14784.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
還是到1點我們休息到1點再繼續開始還是怎麼樣 看大家的意見你也是主要經歷一下你還要調次還有一些內容好 那我們休息到1點繼續再開會進入第二輪討論 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14816.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14817.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
不用了不用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14829.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14833.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
22條就處理這個就好了22條的本意就是要處理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14856.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14856.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這樣不可以加22票 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14875.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14876.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
對阿,那是 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14898.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14899.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
對 等下寫到最後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14914.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14921.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這有華澤 因為對華澤 現在負責很遠 現在最好幾條就像24條後面 華澤的最好幾條24條的後面 因為25條現在已經在處理負責趕快要寫違反責備這分的24條 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14936.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14952.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
16383.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
16407.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
好,我們繼續開會好,我們來進行第二輪的討論那就第一案嘛法案名稱第一條第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
16412.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
16440.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
就不再贅述啦 委員的提案了然後有保留 行政機關要不要再說明一下有沒有溝通了第一條我們是特別特別說明說原來院版的條文是特定目的外的利用管理啦那招職委員這邊是希望再把那個未規範全民健康保險資料的儲存處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
16441.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
16469.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
假名化還有對外傳輸及原始蒐集他希望再多加這些文字然後我們原來院版是只有寫特定目的外的利用那其實剛剛有跟委員溝通說我的蒐集處理假名化對外傳輸這個其實在後面的條文都有寫但是委員是說他希望把它更明確化所以我再唸一次就是未規範全民健康保險資料之儲存 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
16473.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
16498.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
頓點 頓號 處理 頓號 假名化 頓號對外傳輸及原始收集特定目的外利用及管理以保障後面的就跟原版的文字是一樣以上補充再看看其他委員的意見沒關係 文字修好之後請各位委員參佐 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
16503.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
16509.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
16516.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
16540.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
主席 容我說明一下我也謝謝他 因為本來是寫利用跟管理這個很簡單 那我們只是想他其實在利用過程的每個動作我們要做 因為每個動作都會有一點問題那大法官的那個65段他也提到說整個過程還包括儲存儲存就是個動作 你要儲存是準備做後面也許假密化等等處理所以我才把那個動作切開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
16541.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
16560.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
不是只寫利用所以剛剛那個健保署他們覺得也可以接受只是把每個動作切開來明確化就明確化謝謝我這樣說明 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員來 其他委員針對第一條的文字這樣修正有沒有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
16568.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
16571.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
你吃啊,你另外吃,你用幾罐呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
16587.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
16609.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
16616.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
16638.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
為規範全民健康保護前資料資儲存處理假名化對外傳輸及原始收集特定目的外利用及管理行政機關表示意見這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
16643.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
16652.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
反而變得很瑣碎到一個前面是開宗明義的一個條文然後把它講得這麼細索我不知道行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
16664.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
16682.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
剛剛有跟召救委員說明就是儲存處理跟假名化還有對外傳輸這個部分其實我們在後面的條文都有去分別去續名那第一條是開宗明義就直接是寫我對整個健保資料特定目的外的利用及管理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
16683.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
16707.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
對 所以我覺得認為不需要再加什麼儲存 處理 假名化在後邊 大概後邊一方面有一些定義定義了 然後我知道因為定義放後邊第一條本來就是開宗明義在講這個法條的一些相關的概念我知道為什麼還要把一些 有點像公共事項把它加到前面去 甚至定義加到前面去我們這裡有在規範儲存嗎有我們這裡有規範儲存嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
16716.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
16733.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
因為現判裡面有特別提到要區分資料處理階段這件事情就是說區分資料處理的每一個procedure 每一個階段所以我們因為儲存就是為了準備後續 例如小明化之前就是要有這個動作儲存這部法律裡面沒有任何作用法在管理儲存吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
16740.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
16755.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我們也希望說不要行政機關自己寫執法就是把這些這個無法再說清楚說這些行為是被允許的但是有受到規範就是不要讓他們自己再另外去寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
16760.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
16786.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以我也是希望說在第一條就是說這些行為是被允許但有規範的那也剛好符合憲判裡面的他用的wording他的字眼就是這個區分資料處理階段的這件事情這是憲判裡面是不是這樣子應該這樣我要照這個概念應該講為了規範全民健康保險資料目的事業外的利用處理假名化 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
16787.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
16815.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
集管理等等然後以保障人民隱私權也應該是這樣子吧因為如果說利用你可以利用資料但你怎麼用特定目的外的特定目的外的處理假名的利用才有所謂的假名化這樣子才有才比較順吧那除了把特定目的外拿到前面的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
16817.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
16838.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
對啦特定目的我們現在就是特定目的外的這些利用然後處理假名化這樣子也才比較順啦我的意思是說如果硬要放上去應該是這樣比較順跟委員報我們是建議維持原本的行政院的版本因為我們本來條文裡面還會有要 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
16847.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
16853.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那個委託其他後來這個後面的條文就不委託了所以就沒有資料庫建立的問題因為這本來就在健保資料庫台獨大師長代理師長就已經談到這程度我上次我們一直在講這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
16864.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
16889.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
就是每個動作他們都專家他們在這裡每個動作他們都清楚 早用利用這兩個字很奇怪 不夠清楚應該是這樣講啦儲存的話如果有儲存的話那我們後面條文應該就會有規範如何儲存的那相關內容可是沒有啊那如果是假名化的話那我們法律條文後面應該有講假名化要遵循什麼原則要訂出什麼樣規範有定義他有定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
16890.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
16906.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
沒有啦我們條文裡面有定義但是沒有沒有管治假民化要怎麼進行的這一些條文內容都沒有啦就是說如果我們後面的所有管理的這個相關的條文裡面沒有處理到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
16907.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
16926.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那前面其實就我還是說我們這次是為了規範這些事情然後以至於開始我們會立法規範那這件事情因為這幾個WORDING是在大法官的憲判當中規範的這幾個事情在對應到後面的法條條文在哪裡不是啊那後面對應的法條條文在哪裡沒有啊你的儲存後面是哪一條在管理儲存的 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
16936.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
16965.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
你的假名化哪一條是有定義但是哪一條是在管理假名化的那如果這樣說一個利用那利用是誰來管是利用什麼那他的利用管理所謂利用管理就是參照後面的所有條文都是在講利用上要怎麼管理等等這樣你再想一下啦因為如果你你放進去了後面應該有對應的主委你後面還是有啊後面那個是目的外利用及管理就把事情說完以後後面還是有那幾個字啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
16966.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
16993.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
就是原來的第三行還是有啊那個字還是在啊只是他原來只寫說目的外利用及管理當中就沒有東西其實那兩個字還在利用跟管理只是我覺得他不夠清楚這樣那就把極盡所能嘛因為這也是有花一落萬的問題啊那什麼叫你又寫到假名化大地後面有定義可是對外傳輸呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
16994.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
17021.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
就要本來事實上是一個大概念的去概括性的因為這個本來第一條大概都是比較是開宗明義後邊當然有相關定義可是這邊就要開始這樣寫的話那要不要窮盡所有後邊有處理的都寫上去我們請教就是如果原來寫的東西有符合法律明確性我覺得是本來是很明確大家如果覺得寫個利用管理就已經很明確了是這樣嗎就夠清楚了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
17022.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
17047.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
跟委員報告通常第一條是立法議旨所以只是一個議旨所以並不是說明確的規範應該在後面逐條去建構所以它這個只是一個議旨我們這個是特別的這個是專法特別法是被限判之後才寫的法案所以為什麼當時這個蔡生醫療法我也堅持一定要把醫學倫理放在第一章第一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
17048.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
17055.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
終止就是要加那個字眼進去有點那種精神上的就是說一個原則啦但如果你覺得說法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
17056.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
17080.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
很明確 你覺得法律很明確的話當然我也可以不堅持 我說你大家覺得法律很明確不是 它一點都不細索啊因為每個階段都是重大的你要 你就是 每個動作都要管的啊不是嗎 每個動作都要管的啊我們整個的法律很明確是整個條文下來 整體來看啦那第一條只是在闡述這個立法目的 意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
17081.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
17108.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
這樣而已那麼細節的東西我們都可以在後面逐條來處理來 請光智區委員這邊也請大家參考一下有關於我們的個人資料保護法相關的規範那也請昭智委員也可以參考一下因為在個資保護法裡面是有提到什麼叫做處理什麼叫利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
17108.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
17136.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
基本上這些名詞的定義其實都很清楚所以如果說我們在第一條已經有寫目的外的利用及管理事實上各自法是可以引用的所以我們就不需要再用比較屬於繁複式的這些文字來讓這個整個法條本身造成困擾這是提供給趙志文參考不過請不要說繁複困擾我是精準型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
17137.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
17149.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
就是很清楚把這個講清楚這是個人的見解啦絕對是精準啦但是你剛剛比喻一下生意你把醫學倫理放在開宗明義是OK但是那個醫學倫理跟你現在講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
17154.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
17179.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
儲存等等等那個層次不一樣老實說我是讓大法官的視線裡面的他強調那幾個處理階段我就把他帶過來我知道但是後面法條有處理啦好不好好啦好啦謝謝好那第一條我們就照驗版的條文來通過謝謝接下來處理保留第三條的條文信息官有沒有進展請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
17181.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
17198.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
第三條是在說明我本條例的一些用詞所以去定義全民健康保險資料健保資料還有特定目的當事人跟假名話那招職委員這邊他是希望在第二條的特定目的呢再多加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
17200.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
17216.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
收集個人資料保資料的法律規定原始收集目的原始收集那另外再增加第五款這邊再把它明定公共利益的款項什麼叫做公共利益這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
17217.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
17241.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那公共利益裡面呢原來原來招資委員的版本裡面寫的第五款裡面的1234其實1234本來就是在我們認知上面的公共利益的目的所以我們在審查來申請學術研究的時候我們這個就會依照第一第二第三第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
17242.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
17262.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
至於第五點因為它指的是健保資料的使用目的無法透過假名化資料或其他合理方式達成這一塊是基本上我們那個使用的目的其實我們都是用假名化的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
17263.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
17279.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
會提供給那個申請者來做使用啦所以而且後面有寫了一個採取必要的各自保護跟濫用防治的措施這個我們原本在後面的要來跑資料的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
17281.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
17295.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我們整體性就是因為要採取必要的各自保護所以我們會有安全作業環境的所以這裡是否要再把公共利益通通寫出來這個可以再討論以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
17299.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
17321.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
來 請陳昭志委員謝謝主席主席因為整個條文裡面最常被提到的詞就是公共利益啦但公共利益其實沒有明確定義所以也不能說岳父父說是就是啦所以我們才特別想要把它做一個很努力上做一個公共利益的一個定義啦所以剛剛這個曾惠這個代理商她唸出了這幾個但是第五項我們有同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
17323.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
17338.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
第五款該目第五款這個部分我們因為在後面的地方有處理所以意思保留一二三四因為公共利益很空泛啦公共利益很空泛啦所以請各位參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
17340.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
17358.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
他不是只有政策的術語 他是有具體的能夠根據審查的 根據於審查的一些條件就是知道有門檻有審查有界限這樣子所以我們是努力寫出這幾條出來不然誰來說認定這是公共利益呢怎麼認定呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
17363.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
17381.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
跟委員報告以行政院版本來講並沒有在後面的條文以公共利益來做任何規範我們是以實質的這個利用目的所以是在第8條去明定並沒有寫公共利益所以在這裡去定義公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
17383.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
17407.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
跟後面的條文的關聯性不大那再者以一個我們這個全民健康保險資料管理條例去定義公共利益這個是非常社會通俗的名詞是否適當也請委員考慮通俗而模糊搞不清楚什麼叫公共利益 國家安全你又說不出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
17410.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
17427.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以我們沒有在後面的行政院的版本裡面沒有用公共利益你們這麼努力你們看一下嘛我們希望有符合這樣子的一個但是後面的條文沒有一條是說促進公共利益就可以做什麼這樣的條文啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
17428.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
17456.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
沒有以設定促進公共利益為條件就可以做的任何事情所以應該是就不用去定義什麼叫公共利益或像第一條院版也是其實什麼公共社會福利啊什麼促進這個其實那個概念就跑到那裡因為我們在講全民健保資料那當然要定義嘛那我們講的是特定目的Y嘛所以要先定義什麼叫特定目的嘛那因為當事人當然要講當事人所以要講什麼是當事人就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
17458.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
17478.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這個健保資料等的我再跟大家說明一下因為我們第七條我們這個校正隊第七條裡面我們有寫說應該符合身體特定目的利用健保資料應該符合下列條件必須具有重大的公共利益所以是一致性的然後那裡第七條的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
17480.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
17504.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
就是我們的修正在修正動議案嘛對就是只有在陳昭志委員的版本有出現說那個目的外利用要符合公共重大公共利益所以才有公共利益的定義的需要啦那以其他現在回珠各個委員的版本包含行政院的版本第八條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
17505.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
17527.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我們都在第八條去規範使用目的所以並沒有用公共利益這幾個文字所以我們是建議說不需要在這裡定義如果要實質上讓這個使用上更明確那可以在後面的條文在第八條的時候再來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
17530.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
17546.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那就先保留剛剛你第七條就說要我先保留現在我們翻遍全台灣的各個法律的名詞定義應該都沒有任何一部法律會定義什麼叫做公共利益這四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
17547.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
17568.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
所以我會說如果你要對因為只有你的版本有搭配到那一句話也只是一句話那是不是把那一句話的概念放到第八條來整合進來那配合你們也有公共一個公共會議沒有任何一部法律裡面的名詞定義是去定義公共利益的那署長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
17570.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
17588.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這幾條我們的建議內容你可以想辦法放在什麼地方我們再從第8條來看第8條我們現在是使用墓地那這個召之委員的條文是希望說讓它很明確而不是用描述式 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
17589.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
17605.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
招職委員是不是這樣子你聽一下叫行政院的版本就是申請特定目的外利用健保資料應符合公共利益啦那以促升以提升這個行政院版的後面後面這樣子包含後面後面這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
17608.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
17630.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
第八條放進公共利益啊公共利益就是後面那些那些行政院的版本那一些啊第八條放到公共利益是不是公共利益放到第八條啦因為第八條整體概念就是公共利益了啦那我這裡就可以留著囉應該就不用名詞定義了啦但是第八條就等於是在定義公共利益了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
17637 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
17657.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
第三條如果說我們希望把公共利益做完整的定義的話可能要麻煩法務部同仁是不是有在其他的法案上面有類似什麼是公共利益這樣的處理模式因為我們知道其實公共利益有很多元 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
17658.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
17674.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
你是透過醫療的公共利益還是屬於這個建設的公共利益或者是哪一類的所以這個部分可能華為部同仁可不可以也幫我們明顯或者說明一下來請說明跟主席跟各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
17675.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
17693.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
報告一下我們查剛查了一下我們的法條內容有公共利益的字文字大概有277筆但是都是只有公共利益四個字並不會在下面做一些說明那我們要做名詞定義通常都是有那個法院的實務判決判例大法官會議解釋來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
17694.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
17716.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
就各個不同的面向他們會有不同的案例具體的事件然後來做公共利益的說明可是在法條裡面大概就沒有辦法統一做一個定義那以上是做一點補充以前做不到不表示現在不能做啊這新的法但是因為公共利益有很多面向今天我們特指健保各自這個管理管理條例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
17717.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
17736.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
我們這麼努力沒關係啦那個陳委員陳委員你看一下就是說我們第八條衛福部所講的那一些東西就是這一部法律裡面的公共利益啦所以你要講公共利益應該就是這幾項而已嘛提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利促進學術研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
17738.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
17759.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
這些就是政府法律所要促進的公共利益在修正動議案也是很具體的跟陳委員說明因為您在這個第三條要做名詞定義主要是要扣合您的第七條條文說要申請這個目的外利用要符合下列要件並 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
17761.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
17778.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
據重大公共利益嘛所以其實它實質是在你的第七條所以那些實質的內容我們可以用第八條這院版的第八條來處理不需要在這邊認定公共利益因為那個是重複啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
17779.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
17806.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
不需要去訂我們來處理OK但是就是說我們這樣寫出的東西你有沒有接受有沒有接受看移到哪個地方就是到第8條來處理因為第8條您的第7條下面就有把這些寫出來用於公共衛生什麼什麼就是不要讓第8條我們現在第8條是比較概括性的論述那您的第7條是比較條列具體式的那我們把它並並看 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
17807.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
17835.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
並進到第八 這邊就不需要做名詞定義免身混淆我想公共利益如果經過大家剛剛的討論的話其實我們在修正動議上面第八條又增進公共利益是要在裡面把它完整的陳述還是要立法說明裡面把什麼叫做公共利益做非常完整的說明等一下他們還可以再討論所以我想這個部分是不是陳委員也可以確認了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
17840.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
17858.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我們在第17的修正動議裡面針對於什麼是去民化要再加強說明的地方在立法說明最後有增加幾個文字之前有跟大家討論過就是以其於加密 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
17858.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
17886.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
去識別化等各類型的隱私強化措施共同來降低這個資料主體可能面臨的風險也請大家能夠支持說把這個說明可以做得更完整讓未來的在去假名化的過程裡面可以確認不是是只有假名化這樣的需求而已以上所以翁偉師兄在立法說明裡面更明確的把 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
17887.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
17913.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那定義講清楚就對了啦可以啦 等一下就補那個立法說明的文字給大家做參考我們立法說明裡面去強化剛剛王委員所提的這一些說明這樣好 OK 好 謝謝所以第三條我們就照院版來通過啦OK 好 謝謝大家那繼續來處理第四條第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
17915.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
17929.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
保留的條文來 行政機關再說明一下第四條院版是就是在主管機關應該組成資議會那我們院版提了六項提了六點 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
17931.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
17953.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那招資委員的部分呢他希望會改成審議會審議會那另外他多加了總共我們原來院版有六款那他增加了九款有特別把那個申請資料特定目的外利用的申請人資格特定 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
17954.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
17974.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
目的外的審查以及例外不許停止的必要性審查那另外前面還加了就是健保資料的資料儲存管理對外傳輸的考核還有擬定健保資料特定目的外利用的資料風險等級那這裡再補充說明就是因為這裡是講我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
17977.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
17990.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
市議會或者是審議會他的任務啦那裡面招職委員所加的這個部分有一部分我們是會在後面第11條11條審查有審查程序記者那邊去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
17992.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
18014.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那這個部分是不是在容許委員們討論許醫師不好意思這裡是我整個法條裡面我最重視的一個部分就是要有個獨立的審查機制那因為之前我提的那個個人個資保護委員會大家覺得有自在難行之處所以這次我的再修正動議才改成就是說第一個他絕對不能是資議委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
18016.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
18039.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
資育委員會就是under健保署最後是健保署做決定那就不服就違憲了這是會有問題會要重寫就是因為要有個獨立的機制所以一定基本上要做是審查的功能第二個審查功能這個組成成員等等包括召集人不得為機關代表等等就是緊接著後面我是一致的緊接著後面就有來做這一些的這個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
18041.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
18054.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我們務必讓這個獨立的這是大法官才是的獨立的這個機制看得見有這個功能有實際的功能所以我很不好意思如果這個地方還留在質疑的話那我就保留謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
18062.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
18063.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
因為民間一年三百多案來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
18079.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
18107.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那來申請的時候呢每一個研究計畫目的大家都要審每一案都要審所以才有審議會那這裡的資議會看起來像是說有爭議的時候上升到上面的資議會來討論或者是就政策上的方向資議會來討論所以這是不同的層級但陳委員一直就是要把各支保護會拿進來但各支保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
18111.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
18129.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
你現在審議的目標是什麼如果你的審議的在修正我們跟我們的後面的每一個來申請的個案我都要審議的話那麼就是後面就有了是不是到後面再來討論這個就關鍵上次 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
18133.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
18142.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
關鍵就是留在這個地方沒有錯啦,但是我是提醒陳委員,因為這個是講審議因為你要,對不起這個是講質疑,你要審議,後面我們就會有審議我們有審議嘛,第幾條?11條所以那個審議一樣會討論到審查會在第11條新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
18159.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
18169.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
一個獨立監督的機構能夠制定所有的辦法跟成員這是我們今天要立這個專法的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
18171.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
18199.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我覺得自議會跟審議會的名稱當然是一個爭點就召之委員的版本那他最新的在修正動議裡面講說這個假名化的資料儲存管理對外的傳輸這個也是審議會的任務然後目的外的資料的風險等級的管理和審查制度這個也是審議會的任務還有什麼不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
18202.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
18228.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那這一些東西會是一個需要審議會經常審議的嗎?譬如說特定目的外的資料的風險等級的管理和審查制度你總共只有這個資料庫而已嗎?不是啊 怎麼管就一行而已?有經常需要審議的嗎?應該也沒有啊它的制度經常只有一套而已你覺得再設一個審議會去審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
18231.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
18245.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那你說要考核要怎麼個考核我的版本沒有字義啊就是所以我只有一個選擇沒有就用你的審議的概念也一樣啊就是說那些特定目的外的安全維護措施和監督防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
18246.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
18261.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我就是要來審議這個 啊他就一個資料庫啊就一個系統你這樣就直接審核 你要審核什麼啦我們就是在定義這個審議會他的任務他要做到哪些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
18263.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
18286.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
現在就是正在定義然後讓他們去執行啊對啦你比如說部地外利用的健保資料有爭議的處理喔這個來審議就因為可能爭議很多嘛那他到底有沒有符合研究計畫或是他有沒有符合變更啊改革三制變更卻沒有申請那有爭議嘛那就大家來審議會來討論這樣是有道理的可是你的第二款或是第一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
18287.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
18314.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
第一款考核每年考核啦這個就可能或許有啦但是因為你的考核是外部類似外部嘛因為它是外部集合嘛他們有內積當然也有外積或許第一款可以討論那像你第二款的說這個第二款的管理審查制度那制度你管理一次審查一次就停下來你也不可能經常需要審議啊還有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
18317.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
18346.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
爭議處理這個我們他那個他的爭議我們已經把那個也放進去了啊還有什麼不一樣的還有哪一款不一樣的第七款跟第八款那個目的的審查還有例外不許停止的那是各位到審查會裡面我們就可以放進去了啊現在就是現在就是你的第一款第二款我認為應該是寫了多餘的啦那那第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
18349.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
18370.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
安全的防護措施 這第三款也一樣的 它也有啊那個好像第一第二不一樣是不是3456都跟院版一樣12781278 七八已經在後面我們有一個審議會每一個個案來申請利用的時候我們就有把關的機制 已經有了那剩下一和二還有這個審議會還是議會這個名稱的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
18373.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
18389.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那第二個你要去考你要去考核他要不要要不要賦予審議會一個外部稽查的那種角色這當然也可以討論啦但第二款我是覺得不用了啦第二款你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
18391.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
18418.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
野資料的管理和審查制度你要審查什麼啊我們也不能看野資料要怎麼審查他可以建立方法學啊方法學一次建立好了就好了就結束了啊這個方法學也可以有一些修正啊署長你了解啊你先要審查過去大家在討論怎麼來做這些事情啊你後來PVM都是這樣加進來的啊他有一定的方法學在處理事情啊這個應該是內機的程度內部管理就可以了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
18420.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
18434.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
我們目前的形態是這樣就是要利用這些資料陳委員在第二款裡面想要建立的是說我們在對外提供這些資料要秉持最小揭露原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
18435.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
18451.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
适当性原则意思就是说你的研究目的跟你要的资料的比数跟你要的资料的栏位是不是相当这个就是在做风险管理我们现在目前的风险管理是这样子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
18451.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
18471.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
你的研究目的你要200萬人那我們審查的結果認為你這個這個其實10萬人就夠了因為這個疾病你所做的這個疾病它是很普及的當然如果你這個疾病的發生率很低你要的這個人 sample size這個樣本數當然就要多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
18472.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
18488.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那要哪一些欄位跟你的這個研究目的相關不要多要所以最少揭露適當原則來處理所以那個都是在審查會要主案去認定我們沒有辦法馬上定這個定的原則如果在這裡定原則就是講 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
18489.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
18502.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
最小揭露適當性就這樣而已但是每一個個案我們審出去的時候那個是在審查會去跟他跟他審查他的這個計畫研究計畫的時候再去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
18504.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
18532.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這樣講我們就聽懂了這位委員那書中比你說的更清楚啦就是說這一個不是委員你要先設定一個你同不同意有兩個層次的審議或質疑啊兩個層次一個是大的這個方向他的任務就是行政院講的然後再來就是第二個就是每一個個案來申請的一一把關的審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
18533.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
18536.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那依依把關的審議有爭議的時候再送到我們大的這個知議會來處理你要先同意這一種架構我們才能夠繼續討論如果你不同意這種架構你都把兩種架構混在一起我們沒有一起討論的對話的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
18552.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
18562.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
因為你都跟人作會啊如果你同意這種架構那我們把你想要的放到這個審議會每一個個案討論的時候來具體討論這樣子我們可以對話的時候你就可以再講說那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
18568.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
18572.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
不符合最小當然審議會的成員你就反而那個專家可能偏頗行政部門嘛也偏頗業者還是學術機關嘛那所以他審的研究計畫明明就不符合這個目的外利用或者是說他最小的揭露不需要讓他那麼大筆資料的時候那有爭議的時候那再送上來上面他也可以再處理這一個爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
18597.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
18613.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
類似這樣子的話 他有個比較上位的一個爭議處理的執議會再加上他政策目標的把關的執議會然後你講的執行細節上所要的一一的把關再放到審議會這兩種架構你同意了 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
18616.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
18625.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們才可以討論啦 因為你若沒有批落你一個人跟大家都 大家都同意兩種層級啊你一個就一直主張要跟人作會啊這個無法對話啦 老實說 我也不會說啦啊你要再說清楚 但是你再說不清楚我也聽不懂 主張說完 我們才有清楚來 先請王主席回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
18642.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
18669.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
謝謝主席針對這一部分其實我一開始的時候也很擔心自醫會跟審議會造成的一些影響因為我們了解自醫會的確在要求上不像審議會可以讓大家那麼放心因為自醫會就是公共的有主管機關就做最後的確認沒有一定的那種審議的這個過程或者是想要達到的目的這是我當初比較擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
18669.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
18697.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
不過後來經過幾番的討論以後如果我們把自議會跟後面的審查會作為一個同步處理跟區隔的話希望能夠化解剛剛林村委員所提供的內容也希望那個召助委員能夠來了解一下那我自己後來就也可以尊重就是有關於這個自議會提供原來的這個名稱跟他的內部的處理模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
18698.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
18725.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那在第11條的部分再增加一個審查會就不是審議會那審查會我們就希望有一個比較具體完整的處理模式那我們本來是希望在原來的第5條裡面的審議會在執行的時候就會很擔心說每年有300多案那會不會這個審查會就是事情做不完大家沒有必要去把一些本來就不是太需要經過審查會做完整討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
18727.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
18744.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這些簡化的部分可以做處理所以審查會如果改成自議會的確可以減少這樣的困擾所以很希望能夠定一些辦法來做處理不過如果我們現在經過把第五條還是維持自議會可是在第十一條有一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
18746.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
18774.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
這樣的內容而且有訂定完整的辦法我想這樣大家就比較能夠同意說這樣的調整是可以符合期判你的質疑會跟架構是誰高誰低啊誰高誰低啊你的審查會跟質疑你的質疑會跟那個審查會你的架構是誰高誰低啊是這個其實我們也有討論過啦就是說一部法裡面有質疑會有審查會一年三百案不算多 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
18775.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
18803.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
任何一個參加委員會每次我在主持都是二十幾件一年每個月都要開會有時候加開會議一年三百對一個委員會來說一點都不多第二個過去的資議委員會他的結果還是健保署在處理的即便是共理會有點像我們final那個也是健保署在主導的所以我一直認為說這個獨立性就是不夠我過去讓我知道參與太久了讓我知道這個獨立性完全不夠最後都是健保署拍板定案 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
18804.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
18833.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以我是希望說是真正有一個具有審查功能的根本就是而且我不認為三百案件會嚇死人啊這麼多人專家一群你也沒有兩批專家可以做啊一批專家做這個質疑一批專家在做審查根本沒有那麼多人熟悉在運作因為你還是要去熟悉了解我們的規範標準等等就像健保的運作本身也不是隨便抓一個民醫來他就可以進入委員會去討論的所以有時候才會亂七八糟完全失掉那個原來的準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
18834.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
18854.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
所以我的思考就是一個機構他就是做審查然後他的成員非常重要我的從頭到尾思考都沒有改變過但是因為一開始部長署長都說這樣講過太多我可能有太重都沒有我自己進去就是一年處理幾百案我主持共理會八年每年都處理一兩百案 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
18859.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
18872.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
兩者加過我過去的經驗是全部都歸於過去都歸於健保組織組織委員這樣我具體跟你建議啦你就只會檢視你自己的這個審議會你一共有八九款 九款 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
18872.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
18893.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
如果這九款透過兩種架構都可以被實際的運作出來有的放到審議會 有的放到執議會你同意兩種架構 然後你的九款都被放進去了這就實質上你要的都有了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
18894.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
18907.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那第一層級叫諮議會那諮議會他也不是全部都諮詢和建議而已他諮議會裡面有第三款的爭議的處理第四款的爭議的處理這裡明確的講了爭議的處理那他顯然就不是建議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
18912.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
18938.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
如果不放心的話在立法說明欄來講我們也可以講進去就是說這個遇到這個主管機關這個爭議的處理要交給這個執議會執議會的開會就是決定了你可以把立法說明欄放進去那我覺得你這裡面唯一不是唯一有一點是真的很值得拿出來討論的就是你的第一款 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
18939.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
18954.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
因為有內積以外要不要外積要不要考核這個知議會來給你外積一下那一個考核這個考核要做什麼依據要到哪考核的強度要到哪裡可以再討論這樣子那你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
18957.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
18979.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
第二點老實說這個很像行政管理的層級很像他們內部的行政管理那你的七八點就交到審議會而且審議會的那個後面的審查會還審議會啦他在審這三百多案一年三百多案的時候就一定要踐行你所講的這幾個東西的話你就實質都放進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
18983.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
18996.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
只是你的東西你要的通通都有了只是把它拆成兩種架構這樣子你能不能同意因為你如果沒辦法接受我們都沒辦法討論你自己可以保留這樣而已因為大家討論出來的兩種層次兩種架構那任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
19000.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
19024.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
跟那個組成的功能都不一樣啊你硬要把它放在一起然後由一個會去處理那這個會顯然也是無限大對我來講我很簡單我要防避的是如果夾子或是學術團體要來申請要關搜誰比較快關搜我反而說我們這些人這樣讓他們關搜下去根本就不應該核准的也叫核准要怎麼做譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
19026.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
19050.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
類似這樣子我跟陳委員說明如果委員一直在擔心健保署會置議妄為更應該分兩層因為這個置議會是主管機關本法主管機關是衛生福利部所以這個置議會是由衛生福利部設置那麼審查是另外審查如果把審查剛剛說的通通併在同一個單位更有可能篡權 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
19053.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
19075.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
就是規則他定審查也他定那我們現在的設計是規則在上面製衣會討論下面是個案審查的審查會所以審查會如果有爭議還會到製衣會討論那如果是歸於一尊那通通都是在這個這個所謂的審查會什麼都包那反而少了監督機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
19077.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
19085.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
所以這個第四條是由主管機關絕對不是在健保署它是在衛福部裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
19086.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
19113.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那麼審查的時候呢他就會分兩個審查一個是在部裡面因為部裡面有一個資科中心他在提供資料服務他有審查會一個部分呢是在健保署只用到健保資料的那我們也有個審查會那每年的申請案其實健保的量是少的來跟健保申請的不過二三十案真正多的是在部裡面的資科中心是三百多案 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
19114.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
19141.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
那上面有一個執意會來處理爭議跟相關的監督機制我認為這樣更符合你的要求他才有互相監督的機制你把不同的功能當然所有的利益把不同的都有到每個地方都有分配到但是事實上在運作的時候譬如說你怎麼挑你有什麼標準一群人又有一群人的好處同一群人所以為什麼我把那一群人的那個整個資格組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
19143.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
19171.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
他的利益衝突這個都緊接著就寫在第五條就是這個樣子你用不同的方式他們的第一個審查標準不一樣有沒有一致個別性也很高然後最後要篩選來什麼往上送有爭議的也是你健保署決定的啊就是你審查單位決定的啊速度多快什麼時候給你有沒有流程速度有沒有公開有沒有一些透明度我真的請你連這個新要審查速度叫你公開上網目前進度到哪裡你就搞了一年都不肯做 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
19173.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
19201.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這個這麼重要的事情我們要透明公開這個一碼歸一碼這個就不是啦現在這個主管機關就是衛福部啊所以就不會是設在健保署啊現在就很清楚的跟您報告就是這樣那個對不起我簡單再提醒說明一下啦因為我們第一個文章討論的時候就已經有針對這個質疑跟審議審查就已經有特別有提過啦這部法條的主管機關叫衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
19203.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
19230.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
這個也都在今天的早上討論也都有提到所以蔣主委員如果如果說剛剛也這麼多人也特別建議你啦就你不管你要審議之意基本上這兩個法條裡面都有你要的東西應該應該就不用focus說一定只有堅持在這個現在你的這個修正動議裡面來做處理啦你思考一下 來請立委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
19232.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
19255.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
但是有一個就是說第一款我覺得讓知議會不要讓召職委員變成說只是諮詢建議而已第一款是說這個特定目的外利用的管理監督政策法令的擬定事實上不要講建議擬定事實上很多擬定其實也是你們先行政準備出來的所以知議會讓知議會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
19259.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
19287.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
質疑看起來大家好像就覺得建議的功能啦所以的這不是獨立機關因為一旦寫擬定它就是獨立機關好吧所以一定是建議因為要發布法令的是這一個主管機關是衛福部所以這個質疑會當然是提建議啊我們會把這些法令送到質疑會討論徵詢大家的意見最後發布的一定是衛福部啊啊如果這裡直接寫擬定哇那這不得了它就是獨立機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
19288.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
19296.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那是完全不一樣那個架構是不同的好吧那就是這樣子我不堅持但是他講的這個考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
19298.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
19321.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
可以啊 考核給他進去就是如果招職委員你愛的每一款在這個我們都把你放進來了每一款都有一個地方給你塞進來可以做了那你說執行起來不一樣那已經不是法律的問題土法不足以自行嘛大家知道嗎法律定的在完美但是如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
19322.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
19346.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
沒辦法運作的那種法律也不好誠意過高的那種法律也不好但是有一種是定的可以的可以執行但是執行面會出問題的那又是另外一件事我們知道法制面把它定好了執行面還可以招精那是沒辦法你不可以說你行政部門要把你定的事消耗的事絕對不需要你行政部門擴全讓你把它單方面主導我跟你說也不可能有那種可能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
19352.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
19360.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
你說我的房幣 房子他們行政獨大 絕對沒辦法 北部的問題是沒有那種法律才會出來你行政權就是有相當的行政裁量權他就有他的空間你沒有辦法頂到一個法律是說他全部都要聽我的 不可能所以執行面怎麼樣 你一直講執行面執行起來過去你的經驗怎麼做 那是另外一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
19381.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
19396.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
而且要問責於行政權獨大的不是透過立法程序一個機制問責於行政權獨大的不要忘了還有政治問責啊各政治責任因為這善權這麼擴權這麼無法無天 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
19399.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
19419.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
事實上有政治條件可以問責,有選舉機制,有可以很多的問責的機制,民主的監督和制衡,不是只有這個法律下水就有辦法,土法不足以自行啦,不是只有靠下法律就有辦法,歷史的問題我都經歷過,我也都了解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
19421.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
19443.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
但是真的不是說法律這樣沒有我想跟署長確認一下署長你現在如果要兩層級的處理方法你第一個層級是什麼誰來訂這些審查表就等等等等你第一個層級是什麼然後再來你打算是怎麼做法不然我現在真的連架構我都跟其他委員有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
19445.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
19464.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
這樣就是說我再把行政院的版本說明一下然後可能的調整就第一個呢它的第一款任務就是這個目的外利用之管理及監督政策法令擬定之建議意思就是說我們不是後面會有一些執法嗎這個授權法規嗎會在這裡來做諮詢那麼聽從聽這個製議會的建議那最後還是要行政機關去發布嘛所以這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
19472.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
19493.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
那第二個呢是這個安全維護措施監督防護之諮詢如果說要把考核放進去也OK就變成是這些安全維護措施監督防護之諮詢及考核這個我覺得是可以就是他實際上去由執議會的委員去給他考核看看這個安全防護措施做得好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
19493.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
19517.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那第三個就是他的這個目的外利用資料的爭議的處理這個也有很大的實質的功能就是在審查那邊不予許可或者是要硬叫人家這個不能這麼多資料我們就只給你這麼多筆他有爭議或者是外部有爭議對於我們這個核准的認為過於寬鬆那就到這裡來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
19520.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
19548.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
那個是第三個第四個在處理那個停止我們後面的條文有要停止這個利用或者是額外不准停止利用那這可能在這裡做正義的處理大概是在這裡那第五個就是協助我們做協助這個主管機關對特定外利用還有管理他因為有一些委託辦理的輔導還有這個評估跟監督大概是這樣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
19549.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
19564.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
都說自己的條文而已所以我現在就是在在對應您的第四條的條文裡面的第一款的考核剛剛就是就是用就是第二款我剛剛提到第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
19566.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
19593.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
諮詢及考核那就可以符合您說的那一些那個都是屬於安全維護措施監督防護諮詢及考核可以符合您的第一款的作用第二款那個是在個案審查的部分所以那個應該是放到審查會去做那第三個剛剛我提到那個跟第二款已經含納進去了那另外第七款你的第七款那個都是個案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
19594.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
19613.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
第八款那個也都是個案第八款那個有個案審查那個就是要那個不許停止不許停止不許停止就要看後面那個有沒有審查第八款那個到後面那個條文上之前有保留是不是最後再處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
19614.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
19629.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
風險管理那個是個案我根本不承認你一定有個標準任何做標準你也知道我們信用是怎麼分分A第一級第二級A2B的對不對有沒有重大突破還是類似才是比現有的好的他有個基本的東西我從來都認為他是個案一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
19632.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
19654.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
本來那個標準就是要去訂好你剛剛講一直說那是個案馬上就把他下降到讓委員們那我也不知道你後來怎麼聘誰去做決定你都沒辦法根本沒有人照那個規矩去做現在法定的那個整個核准的過程沒有人照那個規矩做啊都看問你剩多少錢啊沒有錢我們就把他降級啊就是這樣不是因為我看到他們整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
19655.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
19671.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
不同啦你对那个什么新药的审查你很熟悉啦但是这个是研究计划的申请啦用的这个资料不一样你讲的那个概念可能是这个共理会议或是新药给的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
19671.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
19677.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
會議的審查的重點不一樣不是一兩年的問題也不是大不大案子因為是兩種的要管理的審查的內容不一樣的問題啦現在是說這個目的外利用那些資料的風險管理很重要嘛那執意會在第一款就有講了目的外利用的管理管理當然就包含風險管理啊他就已經涵蓋在這裡面了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
19701.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
19725.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
所以就是說我還是回到我之前一再跟你講的你這九款或你這八款那實質上你覺得哪裡我們講的沒有放進去你講的我們沒有放進去或是哪裡你覺得還不夠好的是不是這樣子你具體的來這樣子討論那你先同意兩層架構再來說這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
19727.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
19739.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
然後我們才能討論說那你哪裏審查會裏面哪裏不好那製衣會裏面哪裏不夠你的條件還要增加什麼這樣才有辦法討論如果沒有就都沒辦法討論你要運機械商也是一樣要回到這個層次來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
19746.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
19766.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
署長我還是要請你把這個1到9你剛剛念了你自己的版本你剛剛還是在念你自己的版本這個1到你講哪個是多餘的哪個是不需要的你先把它弄清楚而且我們兩個解讀不一樣你認為很個案的東西我認為是很原則我們兩個的解讀也都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
19768.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
19782.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
第一款您的條文的第一款那個我剛剛已經提到我們可以在行政院版本的第二款這裡放到諮詢及考核你要的是那個考核嘛所以就放進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
19783.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
19809.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
那麼第二個呢你那個資料的風險等級管理及審查制度因為我們的資料剛剛提到它就是以最小揭露適當性原則那個是在我們在後面有授權法規啦第11條有個授權法規就是那個資料的類型範圍等等我們會訂出一個原則譬如說我們現在它如果你是少於30筆以下的我們是不提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
19810.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
19833.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
就是你申请的这个研究抓出来的条件如果是少于30笔这很容易被identify是哪一个我们是不提供这个利用那你过多的我们也不提供因为我们就要抽样不需要那么多样本数我们也不会提供所以那个都是属于叫做资料风险的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
19834.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
19842.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
這個都是訂在後面的執法規訂在這個後面的執法規就會送到執議會的第一款我們行政院版本的第一款來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
19845.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
19863.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
他後面執行的時候 個案審查的時候是在那個審查會去按照這個規範 這個執法規去做審查好 那陳委員你也可以同意第一 你的第一款就是放到他的第二款裡面納入加上考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
19864.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
19869.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
那你的第二款我剛剛聽署長這樣子講署長這樣子講我覺得啦應該可以在審查會裡面納入審查會的應遵循第11條的授權辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
19879.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
19898.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
不是在審查會裡面審查的辦法或原則應該要定出這個最小揭露適當性原則那就已經放進去了其實有一個我倒覺得大家你在解釋的過程我覺得我們整部法律可能沒有討論到的這個沒有討論到的就是爭議啟動的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
19904.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
19915.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
因為知議會是要處理爭議的處理可是審查會那邊或許會有些爭議的產生那爭議你說也要接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
19916.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
19922.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
就是像公民訴訟那種概念有一些爭議是兩兆雙方沒爭議但我人民自己看了不爽我覺得你們兩兆雙方合謀然後濫權擴權就要給出我們的資料那有可能公民認為說不行我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
19936.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
19954.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
我要提起爭議處理不行的話我再打行政訴訟類似這樣子那這啟動爭議的機制我們裡面好像整部法都沒有了第五條看第五條這個執議會的運作辦法在第五條的授權法規第五條第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
19956.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
19960.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
但是我們都沒有談到所謂的爭議啟動的機制爭議啟動的機制我們就授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
19973.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
19991.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
因為他的任務第四條的委員會的其他相關事項的辦法你的字眼叫做其他相關事項的辦法就是第五條的授權法規要來處理現行的第四條的這些任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
19993.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
20003.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
對啦 但第四條的任務有爭議處理所以就會在後面那個授權辦法來定本來我是想說資議會的最後一項資議會委員的名額什麼什麼的然後最後一項就是決議與議事運作及爭議處理頓號爭議處理及其他相關事項就是把爭議處理也放進去這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
20021.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
20034.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
因為就覺得說爭議啟動的機制好像沒有被討論到但是你上面有講其他相關辦法的確是可以涵蓋但如果要再寫清楚一點就是爭議處理寫上去這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
20041.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
20053.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這樣陳委員第二款,你的第二款就改過了第七款、第八款放到因為你審查會裡面也是放的你剛才說的第十一條那把它的第七款、第八款就直接納入進去這樣子啊可以嗎因為如果是授權的,授權的他沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
20068.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
20091.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
只有第7款就是趙志偉的第7款我們可以放到11條的授權法規可是那個第8款還要再討論因為第8款是對應陳昭志委員的後面的第19條的那個不許停止利用之審查所以那個可能要等後面那個確定之後才會知道這個要放在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
20094.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
20117.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那是對應陳昭智委員有一個不許停止健保目的外利用的審查他的條文裡面有這個審查所以他才會有第八款這個任務在所以那個要看後面那個到底有沒有要有審因為剛剛林委員又認為說這個國安 陳委員你忘記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
20121.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
20141.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以不能當家審查我剛才在說那個霸王條款的時候我就有說說不可以在你國家你所有國家緊急危難啊人民生命危險啊然後就直接就啟動那他不是說要訂一個那個內部一個審查的機制有給審查會去講我說那不行那機制不行嘛那你這一款就是我講的那一個問題嘛你這一款跟我講的問題是一致的嘛那我一直講說我們到那個時候再來改 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
20149.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
20168.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那那個改的方法我還是個人傾向於說交給各提出這個需求的政府機關來法律明文規定要在他們的法律遵循法律保留原則寫出來那我們這邊就遵循了這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
20169.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
20180.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
這樣你聽到沒有 如果這樣會贏的話這裡的第八款就跟那個兩件問題是一模一樣的而且解決的方法也應該是放到八碗條款第22條還是第幾條那個時候再來討論19條再一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
20185.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
20186.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
所以你不用放在這個執議會因為這個改革的風險不是在執議會還是你的審議會會層級來解決一個國安的問題你一個執議會這幾個人只是一個執議會或是你的審查會扛不住這個壓力的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
20200.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
20223.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
也不能去處理你要不要許可因為國家安全的問題你一個審議會你可以扛得住嗎我覺得這層級也太假了所以我們是不是同意這條合併我們剛才討論那麼久包括我個人的意見這麼多的那一條合併在一起處理你的第八款應該是不能放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
20232.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
20247.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
我們加那個考核 那個很重要那個很重要 考核 還有監督考核監督考核第七款就放到後面那個審查會審查會的時候會有你審查會的那個成員等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
20249.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
20271.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
後面會明定會明定會明定那你這裡還是要叫執議會嗎這邊還是執議會才不會混搖才不會混搖但是我是要讓你執議這兩年怕死啊怕死啊不會啦不會怕死啦這恰到很清楚了我主席包括食藥署執議會都被你推翻啊都被人家推翻掉啊你的東西都不算數啊那個推翻的沒理由喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
20271.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
20298.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
沒有跟國民報告因為您在意的是那個第一個所有的管理的一些政策法令即使是有這個審查會他也不代表他所做出的決定就不可以推翻因為這些法令都還要經過預告公眾的平息最後才會有主管機關發布所以也不是這個執議會就說了算也不是即使他是審議會他是怕執議會說了不算他是怕這樣一直都說了不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
20301.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
20329.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
只是自议会说了不算这个说了也可能不算因为他还要经过公共政策的平息对啊没有错我们要尊重立法程序因为这个时代也的确是可能这边决定了那立委或者是审议会订出来的条文那他拿出去给大家看然后很多团体人民都有意见也要改到立法院来也会改所以的确也不是只有审议会的人说了就算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
20330.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
20355.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
這有很多層次 但也有相對的很多的配套層次可以問責啦其實最大是在換年還在月啦陳委員可以嗎可以啦以前直接推翻我們執議會也包括立法委員啦個人的推翻不行啦 現在執議會不能夠啦好 這一條我們已經投入很久了是不是看一下這個條文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
20358.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
20385.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
跟辛苦沒有關係啦因為都還是落在那個範疇現在看條文裡面的文字到底能不能接受我們就盡快來處理就這樣而已嘛好不好那個兩個層次要是真的兩個層次好啦要真的啦好啦主席他說可以那我們第四條就照這個院版的文字修正後通過修正通過什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
20389.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
20405.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
對啊,我就是要講院版的文字修正通過啊是什麼問題啊好,那我們接下來招募行政院版本的提案修正通過啦,接下來然後保留第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
20408.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
20432.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
第五條在序明的是我的知義會的委員若干人然後是由醫事公共衛生法律與自通安全的專家學者人權團體等等這些院板的部分呢淑芬委員裡面有特別提到我們原來院板是沒有加病友團體啦那還有王正旭委員也希望加病友團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
20434.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
20449.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
那淑芬委員有特別述明說我除了政府機關以外的專家學者社會公正人士裡面代表要各自掃兩人這是淑芬委員裡面的版本特別要強調各自掃兩人 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
20450.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
20451.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
是 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
20470.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
20478.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
知議會委員知名而主席產生方式會議之召集出席決議與議事運作頓耗爭議處理及其他相關事項之辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
20505.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
20532.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
議事運作頓好爭議處理立法說明來我們是不是要講爭議處理的話我們需要訂出的我我說類似公民訴訟那個概念叫什麼名字就是說提起爭議的主體也應該可以是非申請人以外的公民 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
20534.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
20559.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
你懂我的意思嗎提起爭議處理的我懂了因為我講完我也有一點覺得我是建議說是不是把那個寫在說明欄對啦我講的是說明欄因為你一開始說明那個你用的字眼是什麼我有點忘記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
20561.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
20585.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
就提起生意處理的可以是誰好沒關係私底下再講好了請教示委員我想我要請教那個如果這個資義委員會的那個趙吉仁署長趙吉仁我個人反對由機關代表擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
20587.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
20610.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
所以我在我自己的修正動議案裡面我有提到審議會 當然我過去用審議會主任委員不得由機關代表來擔任那我自己也加了一個部分是就是某一些團體包括這個就是要不得少於並有加修公園的人權代表專家學人數不得少於四分之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
20614.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
20619.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
這個組成的部分請你參考一下修正動議看有沒有可以配合的這裡補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
20627.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
20654.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
操縮委員的版本是我們院版是寫二分之一不得少於委員總數二分之一操縮委員是把它改成四分之三另外呢他又多委員又多增加了一個同一檔級委員不得多超過委員總數三分之一現在就是我們原來的院版是二分之一那現在那個操縮委員要修正為四分之三主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
20656.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
20661.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
還有就是審議會的主任委員不得由機關代表擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
20664.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
20683.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
然後那個黨籍黨籍的那個委員不得超過這個行政機關是比較建議這不要寫啦就是我們橫豬所有的那個審查的我們過去也看到NCC啦公平交易委員會他們是有這一條啦那個委員提供資料說公平交易委員會還有他們是一個獨立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
20690.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
20712.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
主持機構那我們這個只是一個任務編組的諮詢單位我剛開始就是擔心任務編組本來我是希望有一個獨立的機構那大家說自愛難行所以我是一致的精神去把這個寫出來就用那樣的想法然後本來是希望是審議就是他的任務大概由他來主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
20717.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
20727.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那你能接受第一個主任委員不管你叫什麼名字叫召集員或是主委不由機關代表擔任嗎署長你可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
20729.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
20748.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那個跟委員說明一下因為現在我們本來只是說專家學者人數不少於二分之一所以不得少於二分之一是因為專家學者要多一點的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
20748.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
20765.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
那現在是把它變成專家學者加人權團體代表加社會公正人士跟病友團體代表不得少於委員總數3%也不是不行那意思就是剩下1%就是政府機關代表啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
20767.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
20780.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
概念是這樣啦所以也沒問題要用把這個提高也沒問題這個也不是說不行就是反正就是政府機關就是少於四分之一啦政府機關代表因為都包啊啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
20780.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
20804.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
等於大家都包起來 包起來之後四分之三啦這個我們大概我們實務執行上大概也是這樣啦所以這個要這樣我們是覺得是也可以接受啦那但是也不要寫說召集人不得由政府計劃這樣好像很貶義啦但是可以說召集人由 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
20805.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
20821.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
專家學者或民間代表人士出任是可以的啊對啊可以就是說你的召集人要有民間這個非政府機關代表認知也可以因為前面是這樣嘛有一個叫政府機關代表嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
20822.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
20843.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
所以只是說不要這個製議會的主席就不要由非政府機關的代表來認知這個我們是可以討論不過最後那個同一黨籍委員不得多過委員總數三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
20844.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
20859.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
我們是認為是不要在這裡寫什麼黨籍不黨籍這個是人權的問題每一個人我們不要去談這個黨籍但是民意代表不要擔任我覺得是現在的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
20861.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
20875.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
就是民意代表不要來擔任這個的這個市議會的委員但是不要去討論這個什麼黨籍委員的人數這個是我們是從前面他的代表性 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
20878.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
20899.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
對 我也同意行政經理講的難道我覺得擔任這個專家學者我要先被你調查我的黨籍身份嗎這有到底 這個本來沒有啦 憲法有結黨怎麼說 結社自由對啊 那怎麼會還是要我要先然後讓你調查之後那我才可以參與你不可以參與你我覺得第一次看到這樣的體力耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
20900.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
20927.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
陳委員我告訴你這條結社我知道這條結社他騙你你要問你有沒有入黨你要說然後他就騙你騙你以後你出一個公文說請問一下這個人有沒有你們國民黨黨籍有沒有民進黨黨籍有沒有民眾黨黨籍民進黨說我沒有回答你的義務國民黨說這個我查不出來你能怎麼樣你也不能怎麼樣所以這結社啦這真的結社啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
20930.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
20952.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
嚇出來你沒辦法給他怎麼樣他給你偽造文書給你騙你說我依從法辦為什麼我不想承認我是哪一個政黨依從法辦這也不對啊再來的憲法人民有結社自由我參加政黨是我的自由因為我參加政黨所以我不能夠擔任委員這個也不對啊所以這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
20954.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
20971.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
五黨籍算不算一黨 大家都五黨籍你們五黨籍有超過三分之一耶五黨籍算不算一黨這個五黨聯盟也很可怕 五黨聯盟也有黨團曾經有過所以說這條接下來也會來 我自己說這條那沒辦法執行了 這種法律聽出來是無法執行的不是說不好啦 是無法執行的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
20983.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
20999.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
那個雖然這兩件事也要處理,第一個就剛剛講那個黨籍那個是召集人那個叫主席主席、召集人、主委都一樣因為他是處理在審議會的這個階段,所以他是等一下我們會處理到審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
21004.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
21021.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
他現在是針對執議會執議會 執議會 執議會 主席我知道啦 他的條文是講審議會啦所以現在你要請教陳昭之委是審議跟執議他都不得有機關代表來擔任主委 召集人 主席是不是啦你要問我清楚啦我要提醒你這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
21023.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
21046.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
我剛開始是一個level嘛所以是我是一致性就是我要他有獨立性啦那機關代表難免就是就是會礙於那個機關的限制嘛你不然你真的就是要很超然的做這件事情啊帶領討論主席會帶風向的啦主席完全帶風向啦大家都知道共理會都這樣要過不過都主席帶風向啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
21052.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
21061.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
這個陳委員請你也思考清楚啦這個有時候不是機關代表但是他去當主席還是機關的代表來聘他來當主席召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
21063.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
21087.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
因為他也很多專家學者等等啦陳委員我告訴你因為行政權就是行政權他的委員也他拼的他去拼的他來做你覺得說叫他機關不要當召集人專家學者做召集人就不會出問題嗎就不會偏袒嗎就不會跟行政掛鉤嗎其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
21091.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
21109.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
沒辦法啦 我的意思是說真的太過分了 擅權了 擴權了 或爛權了其實還有政治責任可以問責所以大家可以接受公平的行政權就是一定的空間你真的好像一直要跟人家搶 搶到完全沒辦法這樣讓他一組合彈性就沒有 這個真的不是辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
21115.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
21118.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
所以我們這裡定的範圍要適當就是你現在很想制衡行政權你現在一直說行政權很爛權但是那就是他的權利啊你立法權要定到哪裡不愉悅了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
21141.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
21149.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
我們現在政治氛圍就是立法權逾越了行政權你的行政又爛權所以這個東西真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
21156.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
21171.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
不是在這裡法律定的出來你講的這個問題是政治問題了啦都不是法律上可以明定的出來可以解決的很多政治問題社會問題都不是法律可以解決的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
21174.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
21196.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
處長有困難嗎主委不要有機關代表有困難嗎跟委員報告我們在這個行政院版本的第三項他有一個主席產生方式等等的辦法那麼我們還是得行法治程序也會預告然後這個訂完之後也要送立法院這個被查的啦所以我們還是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
21198.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
21212.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
當然這個委員有您的經驗啦所以會認為好像如果是機關代表就會比較其實要跟委員報告機關代表他所受的約束比民間委員所受的約束更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
21213.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
21236.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
他除了一般的法律規定還有一些公務員相關需要遵守的所以這個是不是讓他保留彈性主席產生方式我們在授權辦法裡面會定出來他有約束他權力也是更大他兩邊都你們約束是一件事情他權力更大我就告訴你主席就是要帶風向 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
21237.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
21244.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
主席可以主導議程也可以更動議程他決定這個案件先處理主席都可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
21245.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
21272.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
那如果這樣的話專項學者也可以做啊如果一直在講帶風向因為我覺得今天可能也要讓我覺得他們就像剛剛主任委員講的這行政權是不是讓他有些談心多而且我很少看到說因為第一個尤其是資議會那邊事實上有很多是政策的擬定有些相關的東西可能要對於這一個東西更瞭解的人才可以帶討論那主席就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
21274.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
21294.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
就像今天我不知道那有覺得我們的劉建國委員在帶風向還幹嘛嗎不是嘛就是今天就是討論嘛討論的時候大家你看都可以表示意見嘛那一樣啦民主程序就是這樣子那他比較了解整個的內容的時候他可以帶著大家討論他會相對比較熟悉如果你一直在講帶風向的話那我就不知道那專家學者不會帶風向嗎以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
21298.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
21300.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
你講的問題我們都經歷過我們都罵過但真的不是透過這一種方式可以解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
21322.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
21349.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
好 請問秩序委員好 多謝 多謝召委主席剛剛在講的是第五條嘛所以我想審議會 質疑會應該還是以質疑會的名稱先確認釐清一下那剛剛所討論的這個人數啦或者是它的這個總數的百分比看是不是在要依照原本還是依照召諸委員所希望能夠調整的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
21350.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
21363.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
那我覺得主席的這個主任委員或主席等是不是要寫不得由機關代表擔任我不知道其他這些會議上面有沒有類似的這種規範說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
21365.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
21392.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
如果沒有的話我們是不是盡量還是跟其他的一致性高比較好不然我們為了一個這個條例然後又訂了一個這種比較特殊的方式可能感覺起來就體力上不是那麼適合那我們也明白這個招數委員所擔心的可是我們如果看那個組成裡面如果有至少二分之一至少四分之三等等的這種主席的產生方式事實上那就是一個民主機制嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
21393.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
21411.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
就是委員裡面可以用他所制定的方式制定的辦法來讓主席的產生而不是由誰來指定所以我覺得我們在法條內容裡面如果讓他比較符合民主機制的話可以解決很多不一樣的想法這是以上的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
21418.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
21440.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
蘇秉 因為我可不可以請你署長 因為現在是討論到資議的這個範疇嘛如果趙志偉這樣的一個堅持 那可能等一下見證到省議會的那一個主席還是趙志偉還是會有這樣的狀況所以我是想說這個要講清楚一下 好 謝謝跟恩委員會報 剛剛王委員有點出這個條文的重點第一個就是代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
21440.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
21466.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
那代表我們加入那個這個病人團體的代表這個我們把他修正進去啊每一類人的勾個至少兩人這個也OK然後除了那個政府機關代表之外其他的人合起來不得少於四分之三這個我們也可以這個都可以執行這個都OK啊就是那個黨籍的那個不要那至於說審議會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
21469.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
21484.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
主席啦我們還是認為說按照原來的主席方式去寫因為這裡去寫說不得由機關代表擔任我很擔心這個立法說明要怎麼寫為何機關代表不得擔任這個主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
21491.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
21516.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
陳委員 對啦 陳委員 我跟你講你寫這樣下去也不會改革的專家學者也是政府提名的啦他也是 如果叫你說會帶風向 他也提名我他啦所以你這樣寫下去專家學者要叫到一個都是政府提名的 都是友好人士 也是一樣啦那我的意思是說 這樣寫上去真的是不會改革你要說的那些問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
21519.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
21526.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
來一個半鐘頭我們先休五分鐘好不好讓陳委員也沉澱一下也請行政機關再跟陳委員溝通一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
21543.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
21550.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
謝謝您的收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
21899.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
21909.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
好我們繼續開會所以呃針對這條文是不是再再顯示出來來大家請各位看一下看這樣可不可以好第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
21933.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
21935.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
有話就直接拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
21959.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
21985.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
因為你前面有各兩人後面又有不得少於四分之三這樣子會不會排擠你看喔醫事你看喔醫事兩個公共衛生兩個法律兩個資通安全兩個人權至少兩個病友兩個社會公正人士兩個然後專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
21988.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
22004.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
還有跟委員報告我算給大家聽算得出來不會對因為前面的專家學者包含了四種專家學者一個是醫事一個是公共衛生還有法律跟資通所以這個專家學者一眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
22005.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
22028.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
有四種如果各兩人的話就八個然後後面再加上人權跟病友還有社會公正人士這三類這樣就六個那這樣子就是四分之一的官方官方代表表四分之一就對了對對對所以沒問題好那各位委員這針對請教文字還有意見嗎沒有看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
22042.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
22066.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
哪一個斗點?各二分之一哪有二分之一?至少兩人啦,不是二分之一啦,你看不對吧?各至少兩人,不是二分之一啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
22075.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
22100.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
至少兩年那個鬥艇要不要拿掉啦至少兩年那個鬥艇要不要拿掉好 這樣可以齁好 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
22106.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
22109.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
請問人權及病友是兩個人權團體跟病友團體我只要了解就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
22139.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
22153.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
好,那我們第五條就以願版的再修正後通過,可以吧?好,謝謝。那接下來處理保留條文第六條請表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
22157.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
22171.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
第六條在說明主管機關跟保險人應該要備制電腦自通服務必要的設施然後要建置健保資料的相關資料庫並指定專責單位專人管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
22172.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
22198.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
第二項在續名說主管機關建置是指衛福部建置前項資料庫所需的資料是由保險人把該等資料假名化之後傳輸給主管機關那這個有關於前項所指的假名化的程序作業方式我們會授權在另外訂定辦法那最後一項會主管機關要定期或不定期的考核第一項資料庫的管理及運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
22199.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
22221.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
那這裡呢是淑芬委員的版本裡面有特別在加注說主管機關應該指派副首長兼任健保資料的保護長負責前項考核與資料保護的相關事務那麼主管機關不得因為健保資料保護長及健保資料保護集合人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
22226.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
22244.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
那行政機關這邊補充說明就是我們在那個不管是未來未來會通過的個人資料保護法裡面也有明定要個人資料的保護障那麼在自通安全管理法裡面也有明定要設置資安障 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
22245.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
22263.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
在衛福部 衛福部或者是健保署本身我們裡面都 這些單位都本身就要設立資安的資安長還有個人資料的保護長那為了因應這個外部集合為了因應外部集合 他們每年都會來做集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
22263.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
22280.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
那麼主管機關本身跟健保署本身內部也會去做集合比如說我們現在主管機關的部分因應資安考核每年來的話我們的衛福部會每半年來針對資安的部分去做內部的集合 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
22281.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
22308.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
所以這個部分是不是可以再跟委員溝通就是我們回歸原來那個機制那本來我們就有內積的機制那之前淑芬委員的確有擔心說那個是外積那我們本身沒有內積實務作業上目前其實我們資訊的部分是有做內積的作業的以上說明因為我們第一項就是講說要專責單位及專人管理這個專人是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
22313.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
22332.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
專人我們會有兩個一個是主管機關衛福部一個是健保署保險人健保署所以這兩個他們分別都要指定專責的單位跟專人管理對啊那就是需要專責和專人所以我們才會想說那這個專責就是保護長那指定保護長他負責做這個否則這個會不會專責和專人到時候就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
22342.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
22365.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
變成約聘僱的或者是說流動性高的人經常在那裡輪什麼的所以才會想到這種事因為這個未來就是在執行上是這樣一個是在健保署裡面有一個資料運作中心一個是在署部裡面有一個資料的那個運作中心他都有一個專責單位在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
22367.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
22387.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
所以如果是在部裡面呢它就是統計處在處理所以這裡所謂的專責單位其實就是我們的統計處它就有統計處的這些專人就不要兼職的是專門在處理這些事情的那在健保署裡面也是一樣我們也是在有我們健保署裡面的一個組醫管組在處理還有資訊組會一起協助所以這個指的是這個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
22393.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
22412.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
所以因為不論是在健保署也好在衛福部也好都已經有資安長所以這些資料庫本來就是資安長的責任了所以就不需要再訂定你們的資安長都是通常都有副首長都是副首長那這同一師啊同一個醫師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
22414.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
22434.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
對阿,那就是一定有阿,真的就有阿這樣你們就由資安長,就由這個那個叫因為你們第一項,你們第一項明定上去因為我們擔心的就是說因為人事行政上沒有一個職務叫做專門管理這個事情的吧你們編制有這種嗎?沒有阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
22437.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
22465.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
你們都是兼的啦你們沒有專任的啦你哪有專任負責在做治安的沒有啊我關資訊處啊關的治安單位的話就是我們的資訊組跟資訊處啊然後您的那個新增的是說要有一個副首長去做什麼保護嘛其實他不是他就是治安長對就是治安長所以部裡面有治安長署裡面也有治安長 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
22466.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
22490.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
這都是按照自通安全管理法來的所以我想請問一下你現在在多編這兩個人對於你本來的組織跟人事會有什麼變化嗎不是他會有跌床架屋因為本來就有這個是根據自通安全管理法裡面就已經有明定要設定治安長了現在都是副首長在做治安長 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
22494.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
22512.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
好 那各位同仁第六條就照院版來通過好 謝謝第六條就照行政院版本來通過接下來處理保留第七條條文請行政機關先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
22513.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
22513.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
22543.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
22569.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
那這個部分呢在招資委員的版本裡面他是把這一條刪掉啦他是把這一條刪掉對這個陳委員應該因為當時可能是你那些火條哨的連動啦好對不對你陳委員想要把它刪掉現在對好各位同仁應該沒有意見啦好來請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
22573.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
22598.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
第七條對好那各位針對第七條沒有意見那我們就照院版的版本來通過好 謝謝我一直在想說我們哪一條是說違反規定要處分就是這一條嘛在後面的罰則裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
22600.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
22627.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
有沒有納入到管理這一項的這一條的機構因為你們委託的機構算是你們的資科中心算是這個裡面嗎資科中心算是這個裡面嗎資科中心跟健保署他們是現行那這個是委託專業機構或法人辦理對等於是說現行是資科中心跟健保署在做我們記得好像是說不允許不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
22629.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
22650.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
我們上一次討論是說這一個狀況不被允許喔妳怎麼都沒有跟我們上次提出來說啊妳要我們重新提醒的上一次說明是我自己補充說明就是後面是預留未來的可能性啦也就是說當我資格中心跟健保署因為我們上次已經有共識了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
22651.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
22674.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
就是不要委託專業機構或法人因為這麼慎重的事情還涉及到刑責的事情然後你委託外面的機構然後委託外面的機構的人那些人阿嬤阿狗來源不明公務人員都無法管了約聘戶都無法管了你要委託外面的機構只為了只為了你們忘了只為了從高雄台中來查資料的人方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
22675.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
22701.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
然後我們就講高雄到台中來這裡查資料坐高鐵才一個半小時而已不要開這個門啦省去了你為了一點點方便然後把整個風險擴大成數百倍數千倍數萬倍好到為之到為之就好後面都不要委託到為之健保資料之特定目的外利用及管理有主管機關及保險人為之高家 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
22713.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
22730.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
可以齁?這樣可以齁?好第一條就是留前面這些文字啦齁看各位有沒有其他意見如果沒有我們就照驗版的第一條條文的草案來修正或通過好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
22732.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
22754.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
接下來我們處理保留的第八條我這邊提醒行政單位,剛剛主席討論的時候有相關的立法說明要再補強的在我們審查的前,第二輪審查的前要陸續提出來好不好?時間拖過了,但是你又不記 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
22763.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
22782.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
好第八條請說明第八條是院版是續明說申請特定目的外利用是因應提升醫療品質公共衛生社會福利促進學術研究發展及提供政府機關構及行政法案執行法定職務為目的為限那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
22785.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
22811.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
預警委員的版本裡面呢要增加第二項前項申請不得為營利使用那麼還有招資委員的版本這裡是他更加序名說我申請這個目的外的藥物符合下列的要件那羅列了五項的要件去說明說什麼是重大公共利益這樣子那第一點他寫的是用於公共衛生及疾病防治相關之研究與規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
22813.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
22839.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
2.用於健保制度或醫療服務之品質評估風險監控及政策發展3.用於具公益性之學術研究4.用於政府機關或行政法人依法定職責之統計規劃監督評估或執行業務之需要5.其他經資料利用監督機制認定符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
22840.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
22857.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
工藝並無法以其他資料替代之目的那麼又多增加了一項是前項是健保資料利用不得為商業利用不得進行個人在識別行為也不得與其他資料結合而置有在識別之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
22859.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
22876.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
那行政機關如果針對的意見是針對趙志偉他明定的這部分因為我們建議啦如果要寫進來是不是那個無其他一開始應符合下列要件並限於具有重大公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
22877.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
22904.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
後面那個頓號無其他替代資料可利用之情形是不是這個可以我們已經討論說三調三調就限於具有重大公共利益逗點使得為之然後第一個呢就保留用於公共衛生或疾病防治相關之研究與規劃第二個也保留就是也維持這樣的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
22905.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
22916.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
第三款用於具有公益性的學術研究是否可以把公益性拿掉因為我們就是用在學術研究第四個就是維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
22922.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
22945.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
文字第五款部分我們是希望可以把它刪除第五款就不用特別去寫然後最後一項就是說不得為商業利用因為我這裡寫的公共利益都已經寫清楚了所以是不是這一款不得再進行個人識別這項是不是也整個刪除以上說明剛剛我們的溝通是如你所說的是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
22950.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
22977.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
好來請李月琴委員那個我的那一項就前項申請不得為盈利使用會衝進去吧所以我問他們到底就是月琴委員裡面所提的前項申請不得為盈利使用那如果照招資委員裡面的1234裡面就是只有那些他所提的為了做研究規劃然後用於健保制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
22978.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
23005.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
然後這裡面就沒有提到那個學術研究不見得一定後邊就不可能會有因為為什麼還是要去再三強調因為那個目的性如果他真的事實上產學合作的時候雖然也是學術研究可是他如果事實上是受制於藥廠或者說跟他有一個合作那我認為還是要去明清楚這個那個後邊討論又不太一樣所以我覺得這邊還是把講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
23017.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
23029.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
來 請問資訊委員謝謝 現在在討論這個第八條就是第一項裡面就包括原來的字以外我們一個修正東西就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
23031.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
23057.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
倒數第二行追加說在執行法定職務與增加公共利益之目的為限因為如果前面相關的字眼沒有含括進來的話直接採用這個教職委員擔心他的這個文字表述上會有一些缺漏那與增加公共利益這樣放進來的話會相對完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
23057.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
23079.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
至於公共利益包括哪一些像是就是剛剛大家有討論到在委員所提供的這些各款這樣的話期待是能夠修正的更為完整而且具體的來體現我們在第八條所要呈現的這種目的利用的這個最佳的體現的方式這個請大家再做參考給我們一點時間看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
23085.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
23110.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
那個行政機關在補充就是因為剛剛有提到重大公共利益在其他的我國內的相關法規其實沒有去明定重大公共利益所以是不是我們就是應符合下列要件使得為之就是我不要再出現公共利益這樣的字眼然後下面的條款可以再討論文字內容可以再就是不要再出現重大公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
23111.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
23124.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
然後應符合下列目的外申請特定目的外利用健保資料應符合下列要件然後逗點時的為之然後下面就是1234這樣子那裡面的內容是否要再討論這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
23150.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
23164.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
其實我們原來的院版因已提升醫療品質那醫療品質其實就在趙志文寫的第二款醫療服務品質的評估那我的公共衛生院版的公共衛生就在第一個用於公共衛生跟疾病 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
23165.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
23187.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
防治那麼我們又多加了一個社會福利另外有促進學術研究發展促進學術研究發展就跟趙志偉的第三款其實意思是一樣的那麼後面後面提到的是提供政府機關構及行政法執行法定職務目的為限好那這個呢又跟趙志偉裡面所提的第四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
23187.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
23214.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
其實意思也是有點雷同所以是不是肯請趙志偉可以讓我們維持原來的月本我們本來講是第三條的公共利益的定義整合到第八條來你現在又把第七條扯進來了我們本來討論的是現在就要講第八條整合進來就是在我們我們當時講到趙志偉的版本是講他的第三條的第五款的公共利益的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
23216.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
23234.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
然後就是說把這個第五款的公共利益的定義整合到第八條不是只他的第七條整合到第八條他的第七條跟第八條兩件事情是不一樣的事情而我們現在只在談公共利益的定義而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
23236.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
23247.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
你現在把七八整合在一起我們當時講的是第三條的公共利益的定義整合到第八條而已沒有講到第七條他的第七條還沒被討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
23249.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
23270.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
那個招資委員的第七條就是我們院版的第八條招資委員是第七條要把它刪掉然後現在就是第七條的部分呢就是要把原來他要寫在原來是第三條他爐裂了五款的那個公共利益的定義嘛所以我剛剛有說明說他這裡又爐裂了五條重大公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
23271.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
23285.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我們應該是第三條的公共利益的定義跟我們原本第八條談好了我們再繼續來談趙志偉的第七條應該是這樣子而不是直接跟他整合在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
23286.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
23301.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
那我分別說明 原來在第三條的部分 昭之委員所寫的公共利益的第一款第一款他寫的是提升全民健康照護品質 公共衛生疾病預防或健康平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
23302.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
23326.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
這裡呢這裡如果我廣義上來解讀我們的院版裡面其實原來就有公共衛生那做疾病預防那個就是提升醫療品質那也有一部分是在疾病的預防其實有一部分是要透過促進學術研究發展來達到這個目的的然後第二款裡面所寫的提升醫療服務可進性與效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
23328.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
23351.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
或改善弱勢群體健康處境這個部分嚴格上來講我是不是也可以把它解釋為是提升我的醫療品質那至於第三款針對重大傳染病疫苗安全性環境等重大公共衛生事件進行即時公共風險評估其實那個蓋範信我也含過在我的公共衛生裡頭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
23353.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
23373.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
那第四款第四款不得以商業行銷個別營利或直接識別個人為目的在我原來院版裡面提到的部分本來就沒有寫到本來就是不能做商業行銷或個別營利不過這個部分因為月群委員裡面他有提到說希望在 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
23373.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
23391.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
增加前項申請不得為盈利使用這待會可以去做討論那第五款的部分是原來寫了該目的也就是健保資料的使用目的無法透過假名化資料或其他合理方式達成切一彩形必要這各戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
23392.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
23417.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
各自保護與濫用防治措施這個剛剛在跟召集委員溝通的時候我們是希望第五款的部分是不是那個感覺上跟目的好像比較跟我那個使用符合那個公共利益這個感覺上好像比較搭不上所以原來是希望第五款也不要列那原來召集委員寫在第七條的1234 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
23418.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
23432.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
那個就是我剛剛其實也解讀了就是其實我原來就有提升醫療品質公共衛生還有促進學術研究發展其實我原來的意境都裡面都含瓜了所以是不是能夠讓我們保留就是維持原本就好了這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
23435.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
23457.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
跟委員再補充說明這個原本的這個招資委員的這個第三條的名詞定義的公共利益我們比較跟現在第八條的這個行政院版本大概有幾個地方的落差啦一個呢就是疾病預防跟傳染病防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
23458.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
23481.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
在我們這裡面是沒有特別寫出來我們是把它認為它是屬於公共衛生的一環所以如果要去名列出來也就是更長一點而已就是說它有一個是屬於疾病預防跟傳染病防治的議題像疫苗安全那個都是傳染病防治另外有一個是環境衛生 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
23482.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
23511.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
的問題在我們這裡面呢是沒有特別去點出啦那另外還有一個就是醫療服務的可進性跟效率啦那這個效率的部分可以是我們醫療品質的一環那就是還有一個是可進性跟弱勢群體健康處境就看看我們要不要再再把它明確一點寫更多我們不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
23515.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
23522.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
好,請問知事委員我講過就好了,你們兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
23532.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
23548.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
因為有人就大家也都說這個法是給民眾看的那你用很經典的文字然後對比說其實講的是同一件事我當然不會是反對啦但是你不是說這個條文是給民眾看的嗎看了就很虛啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
23549.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
23567.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
就是虛虛的嘛公衛啦 品質啦 福利啦那我們是很認真想說把它具體化嘛也許就是更清楚那民眾看了就懂啦因為這次事件也是民眾提的啊所以基本上是原來的想法是這樣啊刪掉的那一條我們剛剛已經溝通好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
23568.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
23580.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
就是說我基本上就是這樣說明到底要不要用很簡單的四個字說其實我們已經表達了還是說稍微把它清楚寫一下然後這樣會更讓民眾看得懂的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
23585.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
23604.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
我先這邊講我覺得如果要這樣子分款項來設計我真的太過還是一樣瑣碎的問題為什麼如果一樣瓜一肉萬就是講說那你講說改善弱勢群體的健康處境可是如果不是弱勢的話那到底要不要改善如果是還有什麼叫重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
23604.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
23634.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
一樣又回來重大公共衛生事件那如果不重大可是有些對有些影響是好那就不處理嗎所以這個我有點擔心我覺得反而事實上原來院版的比較大的一個相度裡邊可能未來在做的時候可能還可以比較涵蓋一點那所以我比較建議事實上採用王委員剛剛修正的第一項文字然後增進公共利益然後並增列我的那個第二項不得盈利使用以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
23636.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
23662.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
跟委員說明就是說我們不要分款啦還是按照剛剛的行政院的版本然後去加看看如果要更清楚的像傳染病防治這個把它寫進去那麼像這個環境衛生這個把它寫進去讓他更清楚就用原來的行政院的版本去加文字含納陳肇之委員的那一些所謂的重大公共利益的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
23662.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
23688.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我看到對照起來剛剛的定義裡面大概就是這一些可以加進來來 文智俊議員謝謝主席我想這個與增進公共利益放在這個法律條文裡面我是滿期待能夠把它放進來就是說除了原來院版的內容以外在導出第二行就增加與增進公共利益就好像剛剛葉先生所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
23689.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
23704.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
因為增進公共利益其實在憲法23條裡面也把人民針對這個增進公共利益相關的一些規範也做一些確認說明所以希望能夠把增進公共利益也能夠放到第8條來 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
23705.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
23724.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
那至於說裡面很冗長的內容要不要寫在法條裡面還是用立法說明把它完備就是讓民眾將來可以了解什麼叫增進公共利益包括我們今天所討論的這些內容都能夠含括進來的話那這樣就不會造成法條上在閱讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
23725.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
23749.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
造成了一些困擾或者是困難我們期待是用這樣的方式來解決剛剛詹惟所提到一些期待讓它有完整可是又不至於讓民眾未來在讀這個法條的時候會漏掉說因為沒有放在法條裡面就可以從這個立法說明去得到完整的內容以上好 請李議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
23752.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
23765.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
從第三條的第五款的名詞定義和昭知委員的第七條的這個概念我看到了爭點大概可以整合幾個概念那其他我認為詳細的狀況應該可以寫在立法說明欄 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
23770.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
23799.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
那母法的條文裡面我看到的可以放進去的當然就是要先宣示一個是促進公共利益再來就是我覺得趙志偉委員裡面講到的醫療的可敬性這件事情很重要那什麼環境衛生其實那都在公共衛生的範疇所以就不用講其實是促進公共利益醫療的可敬性還有一個就是大家沒有談到其實這些很多趙志偉裡面寫的其實要改善健康不平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
23801.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
23829.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
其實改善健康不平等這個很重要那招資委員第七條裡面最關鍵的一條其實就是說你要目的外利用要作為最後的手段你必須窮盡一切的研究的方法都不可得了最後的手段才是來申請這一些大量資料給你去利用所以他的意思是說無法以其他資料替代了 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
23830.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
23859.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
意思是說其實你大量的健保資料庫其實是要作為最後手段所使用的啦其實就是這幾個概念啦那大家可以討論就是招資委員就是在行政院院版之外就是放進促進公共利益然後這個增加醫療的可進性然後改善健康不平等且作為最後手段這樣子看大家討論啦就這樣的方向然後就跟行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
23859.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
23884.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
文字是這樣子但立法說明欄把你的這個第五款的名詞定義和第七款的細節再放到立法說明欄我覺得母法的條文應該是越精簡越好的概念沒錯啦但一看也都知道一看也就知道因為你重複的東西一直講就是一樣環境衛生就是跟公共衛生是連結的啊類似這樣的狀況啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
23887.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
23909.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
但是改善健康不平等健康不平等這個issue其實是很重要的那醫療的可敬性跟行政院來講他們也都沒有談到這一件事行政院沒有談到改善健康不平等沒有談到醫療的可敬性沒有講到最後手段了當然最後手段這件事情要不要可以討論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
23911.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
23926.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
那我決定整理起來就是一二三四四個點是行政院版沒有談到的宣示一個大的方向促進公共利益把趙志偉整合進來最後手段然後可敬信然後改善健康不平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
23930.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
23958.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
還有那個林業勤委員的喔林業勤委員的不得你使用我們是不是從那個第八條行政院的百分之百的文字我們加幾個地方來符合大家那個委員提到的就是因已提升那個醫療品質的前面因為這個是全民健康保險資料那麼陳昭志委員特別有提到全民健保制度的改善啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
23959.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
23986.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
所以是不是把第一個就是寫應以提升全民健康保險制度頓點因為都是提升他的頭都是提升所以醫療品質健康平等把健康平等一個剛的林委員是說改善健康不平等我們是提升健康平等啦我覺得這是普通的概念啦那你那個要反過來因為前面都是用提升公共衛生啊什麼都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
23987.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
24007.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
對啦 你們講說健康平等這個是一個宣示的態度但是我是要告訴大家就是說其實存在的健康不平等而我們要去改善它這是紫色的可能是同一件事情但是觀看的角度不一樣健康不平等這個我是至少我個人希望凸顯的是健康不平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
24008.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
24030.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
好 那就會寫在後面一點前面都是提升的健康不平等不要放在前面因為要改善健康不平等好 那就寫在後面那就是全民健康保險制度醫療品質還有這個公共衛生 社會福利後面這裡還有一個改善健康不平等在促進的前面放在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
24035.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
24058.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
因為制度嘛後面那個又是另外一個是促進學術研究發展那又是另外一個最後再加上那個王振旭委員的增進公共利益放在後面這樣那是不是都有含納到剛剛委員提到的那個是第二項第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
24068.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
24076.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
對我支持這個現在改過來的真的會比較完整你支持改過來的然後他等一下第二項要加我的就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
24079.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
24102.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
行政機關再補充說明我再唸一次就是申請特定目的外利用健保資料因已提升全民健康保險制度頓號那剛剛有漏掉一個醫療服務可進信也是醫療服務可進信然後在頓號醫療好那可進信這個東西要換什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
24111.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
24117.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
那就應以提升醫療服務可經性把那個全民健保制度那個好 閃掉 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
24119.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
24141.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
應以提升全民健康保險制度醫療服務可進行醫療品質公共衛生社會福利改善健康不平等促進學術研究發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
24147.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
24151.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
促進學術研究發展然後這裡要寫頓點頓號提升政府機關購 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
24155.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
24184.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
及行政法人執行法定職務與王振旭委員後面的與增進公共利益之目的違憲那至於剛剛岳勤委員所寫到的那個申請不得營利使用這個部分是不是可以容許我們在立法說明裡面再去把它續名因為剛剛包括趙志偉裡面有寫到一些我們盡可能把它濃縮然後寫在立法說明裡面部分我不同意還是要放在這 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
24191.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
24212.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
基本上是這樣子的 蓄於法律保留原則的那你就一定要給人家寫上去那沒有涉及到法律保留原則的當然可以在立法說明欄那什麼東西是蓄於法律保留原則 明定的當然就是權利義務關係那到底是說不得為盈利使用是不是權利義務關係當然是啦 老實說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
24215.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
24216.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
各位同仁看文字這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
24258.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
24270.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
因為這個頓的太長文字上可不可以稍微改一下因已提升全民健康保險制度頓點醫療服務可進行頓點 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
24276.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
24301.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
全民健康保險制度醫療服務可敬信與品質可敬信醫療服務可敬信與品質那個醫療就不要啦可敬信與醫療品質醫療就不用 與品質醫療服務可敬信與品質好 品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
24305.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
24327.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
對這樣文字可以短一點醫療品質與可敬性這樣好然後逗點逗點逗點用逗點把它逗開增進增進公共衛生頓點社會福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
24331.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
24354.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
然後再一個逗點 再改 再隔開 欸 增進公共衛生與社會福利然後再逗點 分開然後改善健康不平等問他逗點促進學術研究發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
24362.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
24390.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
與提供這樣這樣那個是不是把因為前面有加增進所以是把增進公共利益搬到前面去就是增進公共衛生社會福利頓好公共利益然後再頓好改善健康不平等促進學術研究發展後面那個是因為另外就是維持原來月板的那個是為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
24391.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
24406.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
與提供政府機關構計行政法人執行法定職務目的違憲那個是在我們後面的第十條裡面所敘明前面那一段呢其實就是在應該就是第十一條啦第十一條我機關來跟我申請學術研究的時候應該要符合這些範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
24416.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
24443.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
各位同仁看這樣可以嗎來請主委員好謝謝我再請教一下因為既然已經放了不得因為我原來也有講不得為商業盈利那另外兩個就是我還是念一下因為我在原來修正在修正動議裡面有寫不得進行個人再識別行為亦不得與其他資料結合而至有再識別之餘已經多了一個不得那我剩下那兩個不得看大家意見要不要再放回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
24453.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
24472.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
你們好有把握就不會機關用的時候要串接呢串接會啊對啊串接會啊所以所以我剛剛我有三個不啊我有不得 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
24477.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
24487.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
不得進行個人在識別行為亦不得與其他資料結合而置有在識別之餘我原來的資料有寫資料的判決所謂合理資料的判決所謂合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
24511.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
24531.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
行政機關在說明我第十條的政府機關構它執行法定職務它本來拿到的就是可識別的個人資料它是因為它的依據是執行法定職務所以那個部分不能把它放進來因為政府機關構比如說司法那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
24532.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
24559.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
法院啊什麼他就是要針對個人個人來調查資料那那個部分的原則上我們一定會是用名碼提供給提供給這些政府機關購只不過是我在提供的過程當中我們會做到保護措施我們做到保護措施讓他不會有那個資料的外洩的可行所以那個部分會在我們第十條政府機關購要用書面來申請我們有授權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
24560.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
24570.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
所以包括資料的提供方式那個部分我們會在授權辦法裡面去明訂以上說明這樣可以嗎來請王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
24573.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
24590.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
針對第八條如果要追加第二項就是千項申請不得為營利使用不過我提醒一下因為我們中午在討論第十五條的時候其實那個時候大家也知道根據這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
24594.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
24619.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
熱情委員所提到要15就是從申請日到15年15年內要產生商業利益者會提供回饋金等等的這個部分其實就是之前林委員常常擔心的部分就是說你之前都沒說利益後面突然又跑出一個產業利益所以我是說如何能夠讓這兩個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
24620.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
24646.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
在這部法律同時存在的時候到時候不至於有前後造成的衝突或困擾所以如果我們再追加這一項的時候主管機關這邊如何能夠不造成後續再解讀前項申請不得為營利使用跟後面的這個產業利益當中有一個比較好的可以連結的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
24647.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
24673.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
好 謝謝王委員我這裡再補充說明其實我們剛剛在修的第八條的目的我們綜合來講就是我要達到我的公共利益那麼這裡所講的因為我都是在做學術研究所以學術研究的時候我根本就不容許他有確實他不會我看因為他的研究範圍跟研究目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
24674.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
24693.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
他就是在做研究所以不會有盈利的行為但是15條所提到的是因為我們學術研究所蒐集到的使用結果這些結果或許我有機會未來有機會可以申請專利或是我可以技術移轉那個部分就會去產生產業的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
24693.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
24720.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
所以這兩條並不衝突所以我前面其實已經續名當然是不會做因為我的研究範圍研究目的他一定要告訴我填寫申請書的時候他就要續名他是要做什麼用的但是15條真的未來有可能這個研究的結果或許可以跟資訊機構或是跟外界的公司可以有機會可以開發專利或者是我有技術移轉的機會大概精神上是這樣補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
24722.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
24723.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
哎 怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
24743.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
24767.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
不好意思 曾慧黛市長您剛剛沒有回答你確定OK嗎 就是不會再發生那個個人再識別行為也沒有辦法去跟別的資料結合以至於那個有再識別之餘這個會發生嗎那個會再串檔的就只有那個政府機關購他申請去了之後呢他依法定職權他需要去串 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
24768.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
24775.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
譬如說那個家戶調查那他們在做的就會需要串這個醫療利用情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
24777.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
24803.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
所以他那個加護我們每年的那個行政院發布的那個人口資料裡面他就需要去串之後去分析啦所以那個都是依法定職權所以他是有需要的所以不能夠說不可以完全不可以串至於說是依本法的11條來申請出去的都不會有這些個人資料可以再串的問題他只拿出統計資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
24821.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
24823.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
來,各位同仁,針對,好來,請王智旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
24824.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
24845.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
我現在看到目前正在修正的部分這是第8條前面申請特定目的外利用健保資料應以提升全民健康保險制度提升全民健康保險制度這個制度本身好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
24846.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
24871.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
會在這個地方有點難題所以是不是再施捨一下是不是改善全民健保制度然後提升後面等等的就是先改善全民健康保險制度然後再提升醫療品質等等的這樣後面這樣比較能夠符合期待不然你現在提升這個制度不知道怎麼提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
24883.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
24911.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
你不知道你的制度要改善嗎啊不然你變成了醫醫那就分再分成一組就是健全健全全民健康保險制度頓點提升醫療品質與可敬性頓點改善這樣好不好啊不然現在很沒健全的永遠弟弟健全啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
24912.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
24933.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
不是啦,你應該想清楚這其實在八條你應該要解釋清楚,在八條到底是要說什麼目的是安坐嘛有時候立法前後呼應,然後你們自己提的法條的範疇應該你要說明得非常清楚,不然就 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
24935.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
24954.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
一燒一蒸就會越來越,全部都要包起來,那越包越多,就是討厭你的制度,就是有很多的,要調啦所以你再衝下去,你就越來越闊,那越闊就看你的門票越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
24962.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
24985.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
健全 全民健康保險是不要嘛就是還是從提升醫療品質開始嘛剛剛 剛剛是希望是可敬信嘛健康不平等 曾經公共委總許行政機關來說明 其實我們這個條例麥克風沒有聲音 麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
24990.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
25013.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
就是要申請特定目的外的利用利用我的健保資料所以這個部分其實是要去做我的資料目的外的利用那就是要去做學術的研究所以這個部分我們原來寫了我還是很懇請委員可以支持我們原來院版的說法它就是用來提升醫療的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
25015.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
25028.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
提升醫療的品質然後呢 提升公共衛生那當然還有一塊是社會福利促進學術研究發展因為這個部分其實嚴格上我這個就是要申請特定目的來的利用健保資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
25030.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
25057.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
申請健保資料的理不例外利用你就要審核那審核就是說要符合這些東西我就給你二准那他申請的是說我要改善健康不平等不可以嗎那我要做什麼的不可以嗎這個講這個就是要界定說什麼資格什麼目的是可以申請的其實大多數你們行政院反送他們蓋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
25077.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
25085.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
來 各位委員看一下第八條行政院版本在修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
25088.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
25112.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
因為有一條促進公共利益其實就全部都涵蓋了未來上面沒有寫的後面就一個只要是跟公共利益有關的也是授權給他們可以同意了啊就把增進公共利益也寫進來了所以就是對啦其實都可以了啦只是第二項那個再跟約群委員溝通一下那個盈利使用我們是一定要寫進來嗎就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
25127.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
25139.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
第一項其實以增進公共利益什麼什麼為限其實就沒有含那個盈利使用公共利益不代表沒有盈利 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
25149.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
25177.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
那個跟委員報告那是不是可以加上一個前向申請不得為商業盈利使用商業盈利使用就是說我們這個學校他有時候他還是有制裁權的產生他還是有利益所以就是商業利益商業就是趙志偉原寫的那樣商業盈利使用商業盈利使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
25179.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
25180.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
第8條就是最後一項前項申請不得為商業營利使用其他條文就 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
25208.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
25218.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
以剛剛給各位同仁看了很久的這樣的一個文字就是以院版的條文再修正或通過謝謝接下來我們處理保留條文第9條請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
25221.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
25249.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
第九條在序明說申請者是以政府機關構行政法人醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構為限那麼月期委員的版本裡面多增加了兩項一項是指非為中華民國境內登記設計之大學法人機構不得為前項之申請那第三項是同時在中華民國境內及外國大陸地區香港或澳門 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
25250.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
25271.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
登記設立之大學法人機構或位於外國大陸地區香港或澳門登記設立但設有分支機構 辦事處隸屬關係單位之大學法人機關不得為第一項之申請王振旭委員有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
25274.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
25293.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
也是稍微有酌休那我這裡綜合的說明就是如果我們行政機關建議的版本是在我的第一項第一項裡面說明前條申請者以政府機關購行政法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
25294.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
25317.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
或於中華民國境內設立之醫療機構學術研究機構大學及受政府機關委託之大學法人機構違憲至於熱情委員寫到的第三項呢我待會是不是可以請我們教育部或國歌會的代表來說明因為這裡齁這裡是因為我們現在沒辦法確定是不是有大學他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
25317.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
25341.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
他雖然沒有在外國或大陸地區登記設立但是設有分支機構也就是說他有分校或辦事處只要有這樣我這條寫進去之後呢假設他真的有在那邊設立有分支機構那他都不能來申請這個健保資料的研究當然我也尊重那個各大學院校那邊但是我們現在不清楚是不是有這樣的情境如果寫這條進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
25343.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
25358.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
會怕會有這種情況那至於醫療機構醫療機構的部分呢因為我們現在呢都有在做那個新南向計畫或是什麼等等的其實有不少的醫療機構也都在有在協助啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
25358.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
25376.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
但是是不是真的是由醫療機構或者是大學學術研究團體他們有在外國裡面有登記設立那目前據我的了解是只要是公立學校或者是那個大概目前是不可能在外面設的這待會可以請教會部去做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
25376.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
25397.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
那學術研究團體大致上應該是這樣所以是不是可以這個第三項的部分院群委員可以溝通不堅持放那我們就把或與中華民國境內設立的這個我們把它續名是在中華民國境內設立的這個醫療機構學術研究機構還有大學等等先請教育部做說明好不好教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
25404.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
25432.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
主席各位好那有關這個在加布這邊是同義崗的這個增列或於這個中華民國境內設立之這個大學這樣的規定至於說目前的現況的話國立大學確實沒有在國外設分校那私立大學目前有民傳大學在美國有設分校但民傳大學並沒有醫學系 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
25434.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
25453.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
的這個設立醫學系 以上報告好各位同仁有沒有其他意見那我同意剛剛就是把第一項跟第二項合併那第三項可以拿掉沒有問題來 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
25474.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
25481.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
根據院版的修正簽條申請者以政府機關購行政法人或與中華民國境內設立之醫療機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
25486.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
25514.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
學術研究機構大學即受政府機關委託之大學法人機構違憲這個就王振旭委員的版本嘛對不對修正在動議嗎對啊是是好那各位委員沒有意見我們就照王振旭委員所提的修正動議後通過好謝謝來我們接下來處理保留條例第10條請行政機關說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
25516.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
25543.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
第十條的部分是在針對政府機關購在及行政法人執行法定職務申請特定目的外利用的時候呢應該要不管他取得的健保資料及運用管理要依各該政府機關及行政法人所依據的法律來辦理那第二項我們會續名有關申請程序應檢附的文件等等這個我們會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
25545.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
25551.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
那第三項寫的是司法機關因為偵查審判他是因依訴訟法規來辦理監察機關則是因依監察法規來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
25556.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
25583.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
那月勤委員這邊就是他有多增加了一個就是未經被保險人與事前同意者不得為前項的提供但是這裡因為我的主管機關我的主管機關本來就是依法定他的法定職長就是他所依據的法律去執行所以這個部分他不用經過那個被事前同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
25584.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
25612.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
那這個是不是就容許維持我們的原本沒有沒有 我再繼續說明我先表達我這邊 上次我們已經有溝通過我覺得同意謝謝 謝謝委員那接下來就是淑芬委員的版本就是她有在另外再增加一項就是第一項申請應用大量資料申請者應訂定使用規範其內容如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
25613.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
25630.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
這個部分因為這裡所謂的申請應用大量資料上一次6月9號在審查的時候好像有真的這個有稍微討論就是因為所謂的大量健保資料我很難定義所以那時候我記得好像有討論到說是不是就改為非 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
25631.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
25644.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
非特定個人資料這待會可以再討論那申請者應該訂定使用規範淑芬委裡面寫的資料使用的目的方式還有資料接觸人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
25647.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
25669.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
因為這個是政府機關購您這裡所寫的資料使用的目的他本來就要告訴我政府機關他所依據的法律是什麼所以我們才會提供給他那資料接觸人員基本上就是也都會在我們的授權辦法裡面我們會明定說我的資料提供方式是有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
25669.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
25688.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
那還有就是資料事件預防通報的應變作業程序以及資料收集特定目的消失這個資料收集的特定目的消失也會在我們的授權辦法裡面去明定因為每個政府機關他所依據的法律還有他要來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
25691.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
25716.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
取得健保資料的目的都不同所以也有他們分別各該法律裡面所定的一些期限他到底這個資料收集要多久所以這個部分我們會回歸回各該政府機關裡面的依據法律去做執行所以這個部分是不是可以我們這一項就不用特別在這邊定我個人是不同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
25718.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
25735.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
因為他們依據法定這個職務來申請目的外利用那他們有他們的立法的用意但是他們絕對在目前所有我們所知道的法律裡面他們的作用法絕對不會去管到資訊安全這一部分現在因為過去的個資的保護的概念不發達 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
25742.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
25758.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
所以每一部作用法裡面都不會涉及到你收集掉人家提供你資料之後那些資料後續要怎麼處理不會都沒有任何一部法律有談到那我們現在就要克則在我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
25760.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
25783.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
要處理的這個目的外適用的時候要苛責於這些機關你申請非特定個人資料的大量的這些使用的時候你要先訂定出使用的管理規範那你說要依法有據第一款然後算依法有據沒關係已經依法有據就依法有據本來就有沒關係那你接觸的人員的安全管理規範你說要授權辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
25785.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
25807.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
你要什么授权办法那个跟委员报告这个我们认为是可行的只是说本来的一亿的地方在大量什么叫大量那没问题把它改成一项申请应用非特定个人健保资料申请者可以那其他就照我们的可以对可以那就好了因为刚才听本来听你们解释好像是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
25816.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
25843.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
要照你們的版本通過不是照我的修正動議通過啊照我們的修正意見把大量資料的變成非特定個人資料反正就照我們的版本去修正啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
25847.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
25860.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
好,各位有沒有其他意見?沒有,第四點我們就以民主委員的再修正,修正都沒有通過,還是再修正?要再修正嗎?要再修正嗎?就跟院辦的? |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
25874.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
25898.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
那就是也把陳教授委員的部分文字有換進去啦那就是林淑媛與陳教授委員的再修正動議後通過好 謝謝我們講的行政法人刪除了是講第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
25903.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
25917.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
第十一條還是第十條第十條喔第十條的行政法人執行法定職務目前當然是沒有啦但是因為我們目前在進行立法中的那個科技評估沒關係啦第十條應該可以保留第十一條才刪除吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
25919.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
25944.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
沒有啦先保留啦都保留啦行政法人都保留啦但是因為行政法人的人都不是公務員流動性又很強可是他如果是執行法定職務啦目前當然沒有以目前的情形如果是刪除是OK啦第十條的行政法人刪除OK可是未來如果有那個行政法人就醫療科技評估先保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
25944.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
25969.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
因為他一定要有依法律你現在衛福部要成立兩個行政法人叫什麼行政法人就是那個醫療科技評估中心行政法人還有一個人還有一個中醫藥啊中醫藥研究所要變成行政法人你們就為了你們自己兩個才搞這個對啊因為他們都會依法這個都是要依照法定職務來做的都是有法律依據的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
25970.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
25982.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
你們不可以代替別人的啦先保留再說好了就是這個所以行政法人先保留啦不要刪除啦後面那個照列這樣好來 李業俊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
25985.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
26013.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
剛剛看第九條 後來再看到我的 大家會回來因為上次在我們辦公室溝通的時候 如果現在用網訊區的版本好像漏掉一個東西 就是說因為禍於中華民國境內設立的醫療機構學術研究機構大選可是我是希望是什麼 非為中華民國境內登記設立的大選法人跟機構都不可以作為前項的申請這有落差 至少法人這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
26015.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
26025.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
最後用王振旭的版本不是我的會變成當初你們來辦公室溝通說這兩個合併是可以解決掉那我覺得同意合併可是現在會有一個落差是在法人這一塊並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
26027.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
26036.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
法人也要在中華民國境內設立是沒錯沒有嗎沒有我們就這樣子寫法是嗎是因為他是用頓點跟逗點區隔所以他的讀法是於中華民國境內設立之醫療機構境內設立之學術研究機構還有大學因為他用頓點然後後面在逗點分開所以加一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
26053.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
26071.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
對 這裡一週啊 我連法人 我的想法是非違中華民國境內登記設計的有三個大學法人跟機構都不行法人 法人今天的想法的法人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
26073.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
26089.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
財團法人之類的啦對啊那可是我們兩者是可是跟上次到我辦公室溝通的那我剛剛看欸你說要用網證去辦上次我們溝通是說兩個合併是都要涵蓋在裡面所以我同意第三項拿掉可是不代表我的第二項漏掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
26091.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
26093.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
行政法人是保留嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
26116.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
26143.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
好 那第四條就是以林俗文跟陳昇之委員的修正在修正單位在修正後通過可以齁 要確定一次 可以齁不要再通過之後要再點頭來喔 來好 第四條我們通過了齁 接下來處理第十一條 保留條文第十一條請行政機關先說明 就是那個執議 審查會 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
26152.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
26167.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
第十一條的部分就是來申請做學術研究來申請做學術研究的那個情形那依規定應該要填去申請書等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
26169.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
26186.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
那核准之後呢如果有修正或變更展顏需要也一樣在意前項的規定來提出申請那我們最後一項呢會有序名說申請整個資格條件程序還有這一條不是要請審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
26188.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
26205.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
計劃應記載的內容、審查程序與基準、費值、核准、收費及其他應遵行事項這辦法由主管機關頂持那這裡就是有淑芬委員裡面有特別把剛剛我們在討論的審查會的機制審查會的機制放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
26208.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
26218.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
所以我們行政機關的意見也是可以把它放進來但是原來署分委員放的部分是放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
26220.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
26244.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
最後一項那我們如果依照體力上來講的話我們把它搬到第三項也就是說前兩項申請之審查由主管機關保險人分別邀集相關專家學者公民團體社會工作公證人士及政府機關代表組成審查會 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
26247.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
26271.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
參與審查其中專家學者公民團體及社會公正人士不得少於總數二分之一任意性別不得少於總數三分之一那原來我們的原來院版的前兩項我們就改為第一項及第二項的申請資格條件與程序申請書與特定目的外利用計劃應記載內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
26273.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
26302.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
特別我們的院我們現在修正了特別把因為剛剛不管是招資委員或署分委員都有提到那個資料風險的管控所以我們這裡把資料類型的等級補充在這裡就是因為他在填寫申請書的時候他就要續名他的資料是什麼資料要的是什麼資料所以我們這裡多加了資料類型等級然後呢審查程序與基準廢紙核准收費及其他應追尋事項是辦法由主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
26303.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
26325.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
有主管機關定之 以上說明請問這邊二分之一跟四分之三會不會有漢格 還是OK的因為現在分兩階了還是說可以分開因為分開 這裡是審查會我知道 因為現在分兩階了嘛所以那邊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
26331.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
26334.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
因為那邊是寫四分之三那這裡我們這裡是實質審查要二分之一還是四分之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
26347.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
26374.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
就是剛剛趙志偉在所提供的有關的這個資議會的組成跟審查會的組成是要一致四分之三還是說由我們這個修正動議所提出來的二分之一就可以讓這樣的專家學者或相關的組成是可以符合審查會的這個需求我想如果依照我們現在討論到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
26374.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
26397.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
知事會他所提供的是更為符合要求的這個組成的話四分之三是OK的那如果審查會基本上是要審查相關的這些申請的案件如何能夠讓他具體的去達到這個目標我們認為二分之一其實是可以達到這個法定的需求所以我們這邊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
26399.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
26425.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
提出是不要少於二分之一這樣就可以好這是以上的意見提供給大家做參考那請問這樣會不會一半剩下一半都機關代表OK嗎剩下一半都機關代表因為他是不多少於二分之一所以一定是超過二分之一的我知道那但是也可以說就是將近有一半都是官方代表官方代表來審OK嗎OKOK我看OK嗎我是認為是OK是 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
26427.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
26447.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
很少有這個質疑,審查委員會一半是官方代表機關代表,很少很少這麼高比率那個代理司長你覺得?那請行政機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
26450.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
26475.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
這裡就是我們如果是專家學者公民團體社會公正不得少於總數二分之一啦因為其實我們這樣的成員裡面將來這些都是要參與實質審查的那我們會針對這裡面的成員因為會個案嘛那個不同的申請目的研究目的等不同我們會配合去從裡面去選擇來做審查符合原來那個申請案件的 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
26476.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
26496.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
的那個專業度啦所以這裡如果說要要把它修成四分之三因為我只是問說兩邊嘛第二個我現在聽妳說明好像不一定要開會審查欸我聽妳說明好像是就分出去審查欸對不對妳剛剛的說明說妳會挑選會參與審查對會參與審查不一定要開會喔要說那個全體合議審查啊是在加成全體合議審查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
26505.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
26524.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
整個審查會有可能兩個人就組成了這個審查會 全體合議審查這樣大家都要參加啊 民間要管啊兩個人溝通好就倒好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
26531.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
26545.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
請問署長你覺得這裡假設有一半是機關代表OK嗎他在做實質審查但是如果是寫不少於另外一邊是不少於二分之一那假設是二分之一就有一半是機關代表做實質審查署長覺得OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
26551.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
26568.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
如果你問我個人的意見我是認為這個地方應該去規範是專家學者不要少於二分之一而已因為這個是實質審查實質審查其實是以專家學者為主的所以應該是以專家學者不要少於二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
26571.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
26595.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
這樣概念比較會符合啦因為剛剛我們是3分之4啦3分之4是因為除了機關代表出的都合起來3分之4是OK可是這個是個案的實質審查通常專家學者是佔的比例要比較高一點所以用1分之2來做其他的當然就OK這樣我可以接受只是說你那都是頓耗就是了你還是放在同一包啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
26595.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
26616.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
所以我的意見是應該是說其中專家學者不得少於總數二分之一公民團體跟社會人士本來就在裡面了因為那是實質審查這是真的專家學者的比例要高一點我沒有任何成見我是說你們再想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
26626.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
26640.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
我再補充說明一下就是說如果其中專家學者、公民團體及社會公正人士不得少於總數二分之一的話基本上這個實質檢查能夠符合期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
26640.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
26667.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
而且更重要的就是如果這邊審查後面有意見自議會其實還是會針對審查結果做相對應的處理模式所以這部分我們倒是不會太擔心說是不是審查委員會這邊處理以後如果不符合期待的話後面沒有把關的機制好 各位同學有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
26668.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
26688.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
那沒有這一條條文就是我們現場的委員是不是就給我們一個再修正動議因為原本就沒有這個審議會嘛那每個委員都簽名嘛好不好就是我們現場的委員所提的修正動議來通過啦好不好可以啦齁可以好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
26692.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
26707.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
繼續審查跟主席報告剛剛那個林惠琴委員那個第九條的部分OK就是照剛剛討論的結果這樣好啦 OK所以等一下我們到晚時候再重新宣讀嘛是不是這樣好不好還是現在就要去沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
26710.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
26712.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
保留條文第12條我們繼續來處理,請行政機關來做說明這是今天早上審查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
26750.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
26765.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
16條16條的部分是指例外原來院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
26769.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
26782.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
16條的部分就是我們有把本條例施行起30日內這個部分16條是主管機關及保險一個人資料保護法第11條公開剛剛沒有通過嗎16條有早上保留這是保留的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
26797.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
26824.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
第16條主管機關及保險人依個人資料保護法第17條公開其持有健保資料有關事項時應必公開下列事項就是目前在那個上面所寫的條文就是我們行政機關擬出來的然後也把處分委員的意見我們把它放進來 挪到第16條是不是這樣可以處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
26827.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
26848.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
這是16條嗎?16條就是你們提供出來就這樣修正嘛對不對?對各位同仁看一下16條的修正條文在這裡面早上有增衣的部分是在19條那個例外的那一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
26851.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
26876.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
所以16條我們就以這個文字在修正後通過對不對好謝謝來繼續保留條文第17條17條17條的部分就是那個招資委員裡面還有招資委員裡面第一項他增訂了就是要保險人跟當事人要締結 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
26878.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
26906.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
全民健康保險的契約條款取得當事人的同意那這個部分呢早上的時候那個署長也有特別提到就是說因為我們現在我們所有的被保險我們是強制保險其實沒有再去締結契約唯一就是現在我會有新生兒我會有新生兒的部分我才會發給他的健保卡所以那個部分是不是就是可以請昭志委員就是我們這個是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
26910.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
26932.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
我請教你們個技術上的問題有沒有可能因為你們講到說好像300件如果一年300件我的概念不是這樣因為既然有這個法有這個法之後其實大家可以去了解這個法對他的保護所以是不是可能就是做一次因為已經有這個法當後盾這個可行性嗎這技術性可行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
26933.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
26950.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
就你的東西將來會有這些的狀況會被拿去使用這個有沒有困難跟委員說明這個不是三百件不是一年三百件這個是民眾他要來申請退出來申請退出的概念所以我們剛剛講的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
26953.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
26970.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
我本來是想說要同意嘛我們來增加他退出行使退出權的可敬信就是他很容易來申請退出權用這個方式是不是比較我們行政執行上的行政成本也會比較低啦也比較可行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
26971.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
26992.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
我們來增加他的那個方便性他要申請退出權的方便性所以早上我也有講一些方法因為我們前面16條有一個凍結期嘛凍結期就讓大家來申請退出了嘛啊過了這個30天的冷凍期啊後面還是可以來申請退出啊我們讓退出權的行使方便性高這樣好不好好謝謝啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
26996.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
27020.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
那退出權退出權你要弄成多方面我們會有授權辦法對我會一直要問這一條就是因為大法官講的是同意他講的不是退出他講的是同意要經得要徵得同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
27022.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
27050.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
阿忠德同意他的裁判文說是這麼寫的所以我才想說有沒有辦法簡化不是說每一次的案子有人申請就要再去問一次那還得了不是這樣子的就是說因為伴隨這個法的通過那大家知道有這件事情你的資料會因為符合這些規範所以你的資料會被拿去使用但是你可以退出有沒有可能做一次做得到嗎做一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
27052.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
27061.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
大家同意一次那個部分就是我們在第16條已經有續名我給30日但是退出了 你還在講退出啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
27062.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
27090.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
一個是負面表內 一個是正面表內我們兩個的出發點不一樣報告委員 那個很簡單 按照那個憲判制那個主文第四 其實大法官會議他們的意旨老實說 它比較不是同意權它比較應該是退出權在那個憲判制裡面它主要是賦予我們當事人是事後控制權的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
27094.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
27117.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
這個幫會員這個主文來說是這樣的啦這第一點 第二點陳副剛剛我們市署長剛剛說的就是說我們是不是可以盡量設計成退出權的部分我們盡量來讓他他有一些他的這個進變性這個我想又能夠兼顧那個大法官的這一個意旨然後也對我們行政上真的是比較方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
27119.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
27143.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
因為這件事很關鍵啦其實 社長你剛才講那你宣判第37段啊他就說國家在沒有經過當事人同意的情況下就可以用這個等等這個已經構成對隱私資料隱私權的限制所以要符合法律明確宣別原則來加以審查就國家在沒有經過當事人同意的情況下他的裡面的文章是這麼寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
27145.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
27167.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
第三十七段這個在整個法律法律上憲法上面法律上面的同意有兩種一種是屬於民事一種是屬於隱藏的比如說我要生下來我就是一定中華民國國民嘛這個我必須要經過那個太多的那個這是所謂的implicit的這一種concept我們現在目前就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
27168.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
27187.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
次長我站一個比較積極就是正面表演跟副委員你不說不來我就當作你賣一個就你說好我才會但是本來的精神是要啦大家都就說你們的同事都說忙死了累死了做不到啊我才想說不可能大家都做一次嗎這個因為以前沒這個法真的不行嗎委員再次說明因為憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
27192.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
27193.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
無敵外用 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
27209.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
27235.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
對所以呢但是呢那塊呢我們是可以優於要讓民眾做要同意的那塊因為我的健保法裡面所以為什麼憲判主文依裡面續名說我學術研究是核限的我那個核限我並不需要去經過當事人的同意那但是呢因為我們有欠缺那個退出的概念所以我們才會立定這個專法後面的16條到19條都在續名 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
27238.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
27257.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
如何讓當事人可以退出所以委員您寫的那個36段那個部分其實在憲法法庭的那個憲判主文裡面主文一還是回來那是合憲的不需要經過當事人同意的主席這件事讓我們再思考一下好不好再回去想一下因為這件事蠻關鍵的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
27259.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
27279.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
你看你們在做人家做IRB每個人都要寫同意書啊什麼都是要主動同意啊都要主動同意是主動的啦同意是主動的啊那那個退出是有一點說我先把你拉進來算進來啦你不肯再說啦就是說還是有差別啦還是有差別就就這一條先留著啦保留啊我覺得很關鍵很關鍵否則再保留怎麼會這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
27288.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
27306.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
應該是這樣說就是說在所有的同意權行使有op in op out兩種就是先事前同意跟事後退出都有兩種方式那麼並不是說採事後退出就 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
27308.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
27335.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
就叫做合法合憲它是有配套的因為我們在資料提供的時候都是去辨識化去辨識化那麼所以才用事後退出這是相配套的如果你都提供原始資料把它釋出出去其實事後退出也不妥這個從人體生物資料庫管理條例可知道因為人體生物資料庫管理條例呢它是可辨識的資料所以它一定要事前同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
27336.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
27357.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
那我們這個呢在使用上除了這個政府機關夠依法律職長他可以有這個辨識性資料之外其他11條來申請的我們都是去辨識後的就是所謂的假名化資料同時還要指定地點時間不得吸出資料只能達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
27359.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
27383.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
統計的結果吸出所以它是有這麼多的配套做起來的所以我們才用事後退出權來符合大法那個憲法法庭的判決意旨啦所以是這樣啦好等一下好不好已經在隔了兩個多鐘頭我想還是要讓大家稍微清醒一點休息五分鐘那就請署長直接單面跟村委員說明一下好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
27858.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
27883.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
好什麼聲音啊什麼聲音來 我們繼續開會喔嘿 來喔 你的齁好這個我們接下來處理欸 剛剛是第17條嘛齁徐董有跟陳昭之委溝通了嘛齁那17條的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
27893.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
27909.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
我們在確認十幾條條文溝通結束,OKOK,好,就照這個文字嘛,是不是?在螢幕上的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
27910.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
27925.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
對 他們陳若帥在辦法裡面退出權的辦法裡面要我也不知道哪裡 什麼時候可以看你那個退出權 退出的要做得很friendly我不知道你要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
27926.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
27954.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
因為我們在授權法規裡面有方式就是那個退出權的方式到時候我們除我們也會有網路的可以申請零貴的因為有些人還是網路不所以有零貴的有網路網路我們還會用APP我們的那個My Health Bank未來也可以健康存摺也可以來申請這樣我們讓他的方便性可敬性高啦這樣方便性高你會寫在那個授權法規他有個授權法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
27955.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
27958.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
所以我還是會給大家來看好各位同仁17條我們就照院板所提的條文來通過好謝謝繼續我們繼續處理保留條文第19條來請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
27988.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
28015.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
我們剛剛跟蘇芬委員跟趙姿委員都有討論過我們現在在擬文字 等一下是不是待會再我們這個就先擱置我們先來處理保留條文第23條林業勤委員的版本22剛剛就已經不處理了林業勤委員的22條剛剛就不處理了你們上課都不認證 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
28033.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
28040.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
第九條第三項剛剛月群委員已經同意那個部分不放了所以這個其實就可以拿著就可以不用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
28041.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
28051.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
好 所以您所提的第23條就不予處理好 謝謝接下來我們處理保留條文第22條第22條剛剛我們討論的結果是我們要把22條刪除整條條文刪除 另外再增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
28065.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
28092.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
就是剛剛有跟那個署分委員有討論過啦這主要在處理過去在有一些年度是有資料光碟釋出的那一些那理論上我們都已經宣布要銷毀了但是萬一有還沒銷毀的那應該要有處分的條文所以因為它是一個例外情形所以把條文移到後面所以22條先刪除然後再24條處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
28093.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
28102.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
24條新增的是我知道的但我們剛才早上講有講到22條刪除嗎沒有因為本來要處理的是22條是要處理的沒有你們早上講了4種情形耶4種違規的樣態耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
28109.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
28128.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
現在變成沒有半項的因為第一個如果他是跟原本核定的計劃內容不符的使用會在23條處理的第二個是說你本來後來講說copy資料出去那後來我們了解之後他是不可能的不會發生的不可能 不會發生萬一發生怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
28131.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
28160.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
他就不會發生啊萬一發生怎麼辦他可以拿到統計資料出去而已他就不會把所有的資料用處理你早上有講的還有另一種是什麼還有一種就是某種的光碟的光碟的啊我記得好像四種早上是講四種說四種啦你現在不是說兩種三種嗎對啊還有一種是便宜的啊便宜的就按照各自法處理的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
28161.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
28177.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
他也是健保資料啊但是他目的外使用的時候他應該要來申請的他自己擅自就利用了個資法講的是刑責啦但我們也要對醫院要處以行政處分啊行政處分啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
28179.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
28203.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
本醫除了個資法的刑責我們要對醫院因為本醫可能處分的是洩漏個資的那個人啊個資法可能是處分那個洩漏個資的那個人可是我們對醫院你要克責他有這個義務啊醫院也要給他處分啊這樣他才會加強管理啊醫院一個是本醫洩漏出去的一個是複製的 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
28216.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
28234.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
22條可能要寫清楚我覺得是不是22條真的是要保留我們今天可以到院會協商的時候再處理也可以但22條恐怕要保留不是直接刪除白衣自己直接洩漏出去也要規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
28237.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
28251.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
然後copy出去的也是要規範的然後販賣光碟的24條在處理然後在那個還有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
28257.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
28277.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
各醫院有他自己的資料但是我們現在但是我們在講的是我們這裡的健保資料是醫療院所他把因為申報健保法的要求所以他申報等於是到我們的健保資料庫這裡來然後我就會依據這樣的資料我知道了意思是說你們健保資料庫的資料被違規使用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
28280.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
28299.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
所以醫院不算是你們健保資料庫因為還沒進來醫院那邊有他的病歷資料等等的他的範圍會比我多他是屬於符合各支法那邊所規範的不管是公務機關會非公務機關都會是各支法有沒有處分有沒有行政處分那個機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
28301.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
28327.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
她有分公務機關跟非公務機關都包含了都包含在裡面對啦好啦我知道啦這個法律的名稱是健保資料庫啦我懂了啊那剛剛講copy你說絕對不會發生奇怪你們當初這一條是要幹嘛的啦當初你們寫這一條條款是要做什麼的啦其實原來這一條是真的要處理光碟啦我跟妳說光碟妳現在說處理光碟啊為什麼因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
28332.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
28351.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
因為處理光碟怎麼會寫成這樣子啊後面24條怎麼會寫成那樣子然後健保署的確後面有在追但是就是為了怕怪異漏腕啦就是說如果真的它沒有銷毀那我們有這一條可以來弄法啦那是我作弊了你 你才這樣說的當時你都不是這樣說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
28353.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
28370.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
因為我提出這個質疑了然後你們就說對對對我們22條就是否你講的那個質疑可是我還沒提出質疑以前你講的不是這一個點所以我真的很不懂你們22條當初是要做什麼的你要誠實的說怎麼現在變成整條刪除呢如果是要整條刪除應該是22條把你們新增的24條置換到這裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
28382.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
28407.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
可是這裡,這裡是可以罰到一千萬耶你們現在後面給我到賣公帖沒有處分的是只到一千萬喔?您到底能抽二十二條紙要幹嘛的?你也不知道放二十四條嗎?你二十四條多少?沒有,就是後面要調了對,要怎麼調?要調條紙的啊放到二十二就可以了,為什麼要二十?調紙就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
28412.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
28432.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
你為什麼一定要22條要拿掉對啊為什麼一定要拿掉你這麼突然拿掉我們自私立場我們就開始懷疑有鬼了你沒有拿掉我們無感你現在說要拿掉我就開始懷疑有鬼因為有鬼他們才會自私立場去有魔性的虎心應該是你們很危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
28436.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
28454.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
這條保留不可以刪除我們稍後再來看 等一下再嚴刑拷打22條條文還是先保留 好不好 先保留然後我們現在來剛剛19條還沒有宣讀嘛19條 先處理 對對 因為你們可以看一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
28486.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
28496.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
為重大公共利益資金風險評估及受政府機關或投資公共衛生醫療科技效益評估前兩款、三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
28505.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
28516.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
28536.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
28539.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
你們剛剛怎麼都沒有處理好第19條啊,我還要跟你修 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
28574.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
28583.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
你們25條有處理了嗎?對啊,有沒有什麼建議要修正文字?剛剛有討論到保留嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
28609.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
28609.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
28616.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
28639.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
好 各位委員 有的在處理19條 其他的聽我宣告一下我們開會是到5點嘛 對不對那因為條文只剩下兩條比較大家在討論嘛 還有四個互代決議所以徵求大家意見是不是我們今天就把整個法案處理完成了好不好 那有可能超過5點半還是 超過5點我們還是處理完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
28641.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
28652.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
五點半可能不會啦,抱歉那也不一定啦因為自己提出來自己要消滅掉,有問題危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
28667.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
28684.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
韓國瑜議員韓國瑜議員韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
28722.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
28723.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
總統發布...現在是...這邊...這邊... |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
28742.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
28748.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
今天要叫他天津的總統主席要上帝上帝的祖先現在是說你老公就天津了要天津 大家都不能睡覺你叫郭敏來天津讓我們三郭敏來天津我們天津的主席要上帝的祖先 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
28765.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
28766.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
你們第二訴條有沒有處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
28772.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
28773.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
郭文貴議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
28787.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
28811.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
對我而言對我自己的樣貌,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過,我從來都沒有這樣想過, |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
28842.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
28846.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
可以嗎歷史條第一項及第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
28851.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
28865.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
做完機關會保險有提供支援國家安全、民主人民生命、身體保險都讓其不成威脅將機關會保險對外提供特定目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
28873.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
28875.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
我只問說這個第10條第10項是什麼?怎樣?剛剛19條列的 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
28903.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
28930.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
第一項政府機關及行政法人執行法定職務申請特定目的外利用健保資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
28931.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
28943.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
因已書面向被保險人提出其取資健保資料之運用及管理,應依各機關及行政法人所依據之法律辦理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
28963.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
28988.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
這第十條第一項跟第三項司法機關因偵查、審判或執行法定之務要取健保資料應依訴訟法規範理檢查機關執行法規職務取得健保資料依法規範理這可以講 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
28994.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
28997.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
好,19條怎樣?可以嗎?溝通完成了吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
29025.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
29033.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
第一項跟第三項19條是說第一項跟第三項剛才說第一項跟第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
29060.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
29072.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
原來是寫依其他法律啦那我們現在是把它明定成第十條第一項跟第三項因為第一項我有講到政府機關構第三項是講司法院跟監察院啦所以這個就把它明定進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
29073.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
29096.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
這個是法定職長所以他不能退出至於現在的第二款跟第三款原則上第二款跟第三款其實都是為了因應有緊急的狀況比如說國家發生戰爭或者是說前幾年的COVID的那種特殊疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
29097.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
29122.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
那個部分呢我們就因為為了國家整體的民眾的身體安全所以呢我們必須我們不能讓他退出啦因為退出的話比如說以COVID為例那我們要分析這些疫苗打有沒有用我都沒有資料可以做分析所以是這樣的精神所以第二條第三條那現在的各執法其實有部分的法條也都是維持這兩種寫法啦其他的法律也有所以第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
29126.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
29140.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
你現在講的,他現在後面在修了?增加一個程序上的法官,增加一個T2和T3,多一點程序上的法官你沒有辦法法官的話,至少要公告給大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
29151.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
29157.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
我們在急迫性那因為國家戰爭的時候會需要健保資料庫的健保我們都沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
29168.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
29193.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
主席很不好意思,我第19條要求保留那我們再回去想,我第19條要求保留好謝謝因為這個範圍,這個是外界矚目的條文你讓一個人退出再把他拉進來,我覺得要大家好好想一想我們請求保留,謝謝市長現在這樣你也看一看,陳委員你也看一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
29199.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
29207.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
又再修啦,你看一下,看這樣會不會動?這條很關鍵啦,非常關鍵所以這條要非常審慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
29216.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
29233.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
以後整個法界討論的重點都會在這一條這一條老實說我覺得有一點真的是很困難困難的地方就是說國家安全還有人民生命財產的急迫危險當然我們就是說這樣不是你說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
29234.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
29260.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
但是說真正碰到的時候到底是什麼狀況理論上應該是採取法律保留原則你碰到的時候應該是定出一個法律你定出一個法律我們就遵循了就都不可以退出但是有沒有那種急迫到急迫到連定法律都來不及的國家安全的狀況連定法律都程序太慢的狀況所以我才會想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
29262.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
29279.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
那至少應該是什麼啦如果可以的話我都希望是二三款就應健行的程序最好都是法律訂出來最簡單可是有時候如果是緊急狀況有沒有可能沒有辦法來得及的話至少應該做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
29281.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
29308.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
你申請了機關你給大家說 再公告給大家知道到底是為什麼 這個需求是怎麼樣所以我經常講說其實這個責任就是土法不足以自行有時候還有政治責任可以問責這樣如果不完美的話當然可以再討論那這是我能想像的這個是妥協後的我的狀況就是我想不出來老實說最完美的我想不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
29309.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
29321.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
或許大家可以再到院會保留協商的時候再繼續討論主席我也個人主張就保留這下其他可以出文會就這下保留沒關係啦沒關係啦沒關係啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
29324.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
29324.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
主席要跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
29351.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
29369.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
這個大家的爭議點主要是在第二款跟第三款那麼擔心它過於模糊啦那這個本來是說要有一個會議的審查可是又擔心這個執議會啊那麼不足以承擔這樣的審查的這個任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
29372.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
29386.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
所以應該限縮可以使用的機關構並且要求他要很具體的由他來自己引述當時候為何需要來使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
29387.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
29413.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
沒有就是人家那個退出之後還要把他拉回來的這樣的一個資料所以他的使用的目的是什麼必要性什麼而且要對外揭露啦最主要就是要對外揭露因為這個國家安全人民生命財產的急迫危險那麼以對這個公眾揭露的方式所以來確保他不會被濫 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
29415.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
29432.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
隨便的行使這樣的禁止退出應該這個是禁止退出所以才會跟蘇貞委員討論之後用這樣的文字來呈現他的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
29434.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
29453.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
對啦那我再補充就是我剛才講過如果最想要的應該是請求的機關構其實是必須立一個法律採取法律保留原則才是最好的但我就是不知道有沒有那種狀況是非常緊急的而必要的或者是我們可以拆成兩個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
29455.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
29479.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
如果可以的話非急迫到那麼急迫的話應該還是要以法律保留原則而為之因為你這個是完全剝奪了當事人就是我們的這個事後控制權這個也是正式憲判裡面最核心的價值憲判最核心就是說我們的不管事前那個事後退出其實都要講我們的事後控制權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
29480.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
29500.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
但是你把他剝奪掉了不准人家退出的狀況這個在他必須相當的正當性相當的急迫性相當的有國家安全的疑慮可是這就不能腐爛的使用的時候我們到底要怎麼規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
29502.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
29521.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
所以我也是覺得說可以保留到協商的時候再繼續討論也可以跟委員報告說如果他他比如說有特別條例以我們COVID為例有特別條例的話有特別條例他就會是第一款他就會回到第十條去試用他有特別條例了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
29523.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
29547.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
那麼但是像上次Covid是還沒有特別條例之前如果他真的有需要就會用到第三款的用法那就是緊急急迫對 他的必要性跟這個就是法律還沒有完成以前還沒有特別條例還沒有立好以前那他就緊急急迫要先用這是他的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
29551.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
29570.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
阿剛才講的國家安全這個可以想像你們可以想像的你們這條線路的條文是為了抄來的因為健保資料庫跟國家安全你們是哪裡有擊破到不准人家擁有事後控制權不要說戰爭 戰爭的時候要看血型 輸血 輸什麼型哪有可能真的是這樣為了輸血看血型 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
29582.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
29606.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
這個是這樣啦我才說再提醒一下行政機關自己提出來的草案自己應該要有很有把握的一個認知跟說明因為你原有條文是依其他法律主管機關或保險人有提供之義務那我們當然有委員建議就是把它改為依第十條第一項及第三項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
29608.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
29634.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
這個當然是更明確的在講這個啦但是相對的也是說起來算是縮小案例啦去認定啦不是行政機關可以授權用更廣況的這樣去處理這沒有對錯問題啦所以我是想說你可能這個事情你們當時訂這個草案的時候應該你們就知道你們的想像是什麼啊對啊 國家安全的必要性到底想像是什麼這還沒什麼想像啦 這說起來就是草的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
29636.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
29638.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
所以其實各支法上有類似的規定啦那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
29661.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
29674.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
這個健保資料也是個資法所以才會把這個文字上先以那你們去查一下個資法訂這一條所想像的不過因為個資法範疇比較大我馬上就要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
29676.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
29695.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
要叫這人這人 叫什麼名字那他的戶籍資料 可能要緊急聯絡他的家人有需要可是我們這裡講的是健保資料庫顯然叫做二手資料所以他會連結到緊急非常急迫的國家安全的我真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
29699.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
29721.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
這條是講當事人要請求停止但是我覺得他是研究上的二手資料啦就研究上他是二手資料剛剛跟委員也說明如果這個是由政府機關構來處理的政府機關構他是要只能按照第十條有法律規定這個在處理還沒有法律規定他說沒有特別條例的時候他就用這個性格 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
29724.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
29741.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
要不然他就法律規定按照第一款第一款就結束了啊所以二三款就是他法律還沒有完成制度之前有這個目的有這個目的跟必要性就是用二三款所以我問你說跟國家安全有的想像的課題會是什麼啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
29744.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
29766.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
但是因為在健保資料庫這裡你能想像的連結會是什麼樣的需求因為這個是我再講一次整個憲法法庭的判決裡面就是說我們即便沒有高強度的事前同意權你也要給人家事後的退出權這叫事後控制權我個人的資料我要擁有完整的事後控制權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
29767.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
29794.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
但你這個條文重要是因為我剝奪掉了你的事後控制權你沒有所謂的個人的權利因為國家還有公共利益比你個人權利更重要那你剝奪人家這個所以我要定這樣這麼高強度的時候你要給我想像說這個東西有可能是什麼為什麼我想像啦如果今天有一個生化武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
29796.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
29803.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
在井水下毒一開始看起來像疾病但是有可能會危及國家安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
29808.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
29831.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
這個比書寫的血型更有正當性了那報告委員我再說明第三個危害那個身體因為之前陳時中政委他自己有舉一個例子就是說因為我們會面對有那個重大傷亡事件那重大傷亡事件的時候呢因為這些人我要辨識他這些人是誰死亡的是誰那他要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
29832.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
29855.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
只能用此模去辨認幫助罹難者協助身份鑑定那這樣子我們比較具體可以想像的時候我們就想說如果遇到這種狀況的話那我們就增加了這個第二項這樣的一個東西夠不夠就是我先告訴大家了我要這樣做了我很緊急了我為什麼要這麼做為什麼這麼必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
29857.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
29886.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
那我有公告給大家知道了我覺得至少因為你們本來沒有這個程序嘛那後來我覺得至少要有這個程序那還必須要才有什麼程序我個人是想不出來啦但是大家你們有意見的話可以再討論我是覺得他這樣講我就可以想像的出來是什麼情境那我們的法律上的要求這樣夠不夠這樣子就比較可以理解大家比較可以理解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
29888.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
29907.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
就是建議先保留好不好OK因為你這樣修起來也會抵觸到你之前的前面幾個條文所以可能請行政機關再把它弄清楚一點整個規劃是比較正確的好剛剛有保留22條文那22條怎麼辦22條就給他保留到院會再討論好留著保留好那接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
29918.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
29947.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
第二十五條保留條文第二十五條行政計畫是希望照原條文通過是不是對不對各位有沒有其他意見第二十五條第二十五條的部分我們只是過度調整就這個條例施行前因核准特定目的外利用的話我還可以這個是那個法律不受既往原則啦OK好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
29949.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
29969.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
那應該沒有問題吧各位同仁有沒有意見信貸保護原則這是信貸保護原則應該沒有意見了好第二十五條各位同仁沒有意見我們就照二十五就是這個沒有光碟光碟另外一條了嗎第二十五條我們就照院版的條文來通過好謝謝好現在要來處理附帶決議共識案請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
29978.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
30001.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
那個那個那個那個報告主席剛剛那個光碟的那一條有沒有要不要修正動議進去那個淑芬委員要用修正動議嗎因為本來沒有這一條嗎要用修正動議沒有就這裡拿來簽好了我們先宣讀婚納決議啦你們修正動議等一下送上我們再宣讀好不好來請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
30003.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
30030.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
第一案 建請衛生福利部於本法三讀通過後持續研議整體衛生福利資料管理法制化之可能性與時程並請於本法實施一年後向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交衛生福利資料管理法制化可行性與立法時程規劃之書面報告提案人委員王振旭 連署人委員林月琴 黃秀芳第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
30031.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
30054.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
建請衛生福利部針對全民健康保險資料管理機制除法定之審議會外除在執法或相關規範中設有審議小組等相關審議機制其成員或外部學者專家仍應納入醫療服務提供者之代表提案人委員王正旭連署人委員林月琴黃秀芳第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
30056.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
30070.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
全民健康保險資料管理條例草案第十一條申請書之內容應至少在明下列事項一 申請者名稱地址代表人姓名等資訊二 執行資料特地目的外利用之相關人員資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
30071.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
30091.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
三所申請之資料範圍類型及期間四申請之法規依據五資料利用之特定目的必要性及預期效益六資料處理方式預期可能風險風險管控與安全維護措施提案人委員王振旭聯署人委員林月琴林淑芬 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
30091.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
30110.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
第四案全民健康保險資料管理條例草案第14條鎖定主管機關及保險人應定其公開之資訊應至少包含主管機關或保險人決定通過之健保資料特定目的外利用計劃通過案件之申請書審查會會議記錄及相關資料資議會會議記錄及相關資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
30115.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
30132.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
申請者於特定目的外利用計畫執行完畢後其利用結果報告或研議成果等相關資訊提案人 委員 王振旭 連署人 委員 林月琴 林淑芬 宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們現在針對第一案請行政機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
30134.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
30145.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
第一案沒有意見好沒有意見那第一案我們就照王委員所提的附帶決議通過那接下來請第二案請行政機關表示意見第二案是那個法定的審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
30148.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
30171.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
因為我們剛剛的條文都已經維持諮議會所以這裡我是不是建議建請衛生福利部針對全民健康保險資料管理機制除法定之諮議會外若在此法或相關規範中設有審查會等相關審議機制其成員與外部學者專家仍應納入醫療服務提供者之代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
30178.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
30186.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
這一個部分基本上是審查會不是執意會所以如果要調整的話應該是改成審查會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
30187.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
30214.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
所以就出法訂之審查會對不對 審查會外若在此外或相關公關中設有審查小組 審議小組應該就不用改了嗎它是指審查會 不是審議會不是我們原先所認定的審議會這是審查會 不是質疑會好 那就是審查會我們還是會納入醫療服務提供者的代表如果簡單的講是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
30218.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
30232.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
王議員您的意思就是我那個審查會因為我那邊有主持人有專家社會公正人士等專家學者這個部分是不是成員的或外部學者專家應該要納入醫療服務提供者的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
30232.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
30241.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
我修訂一下 請大家在最後確認就是說建請處罰定之諮議會諮議會是在審查會這邊是改成諮議會那後面的審議小組是審查會的審查審議小組OK是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
30270.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
30283.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
好,那這樣是同意,是文職就照剛剛的建議這樣通過,是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
30286.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
30307.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
好謝謝來繼續處理第三個附帶決議請行政機關表示意見沒有意見沒有意見好那第三我們就照王政訓委員所提案的附帶決議通過第四案請行政機關表示意見第四案遵照辦理行政機關遵照辦理遵照辦理好那就照王委員所提的附帶決議通過好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
30311.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
30321.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
那我們繼續來處理剛剛有在所提的修正動議提醒一下我們是保留19條跟22條7條文均已經有會討論通過所以有針對要徵修或調整的請要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
30329.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
30344.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
把條次弄清楚25條剛剛是已經通過了喔對對那跟主席跟委員報告就是說把那個在那個一百零幾年間有釋出的那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
30345.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
30373.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
光碟的健保資料把它擬定要銷毀所以就新增了25條的第二項跟第三項所以在本條例實施前以取得之健保資料因予銷毀但是如果是政府習慣過執行法定職務不再實現那違反前項規定位於銷毀者處心台幣200萬元以上1000萬元以下不是不是不是剛剛是25條已經通過了對啊你要把它放在25條的第二項第三項這樣是怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
30377.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
30401.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
對本來是要新增一個24條要做修正動議可是因為那個時候是考慮22條拿掉所以條次上就會變成有一個空出來的24條可是22條又保留剛剛討論是保留所以我們就把它併在25條它也是屬於那個落日25條其實就是信賴保護原則在本條例施行前的一併處理一種是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
30404.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
30428.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
合法合規使用當時候東西合法合規可是呢他後面都有一些這個救濟的措施好了各位同仁有沒有意見如果沒有我們就25條再提出來修正了對不對好再提修正都議就是政略第二第三啦來通過好OK一樣保留這個條文就是19條跟22條啦對19跟22好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
30433.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
30448.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
現在作為下決議第一全民健康保險資料管理條例草案等七案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論時本案由劉昭吉委員建國補充說明那請問本案是否需交由黨團協商要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
30451.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
30468.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
好謝謝要交由黨人協商本法案條次及援引條次授權議事人員調整立法說明授權行政機關提供好那本次會議我們到此結束現在散會謝謝大家謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
30470.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
30470.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝 |