| IVOD_ID |
16783 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16783 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-25T08:31:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-25T12:49:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:17:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea9fa285f098aaacf3b6918ac9a8133975418e1797692e3a0d451700a12c0c16235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-25T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。【第六案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:01 - 12:49:00 |
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好請主任秘書報告出席人數出席委員10人以主法定人數好現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1884.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1903.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一届第三會期內政委員會第二十六次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年六月十八日星期三上午九時十分之下午一十四分一百十四年六月十九日星期四上午九時一分之十一時十八分地點紅龍二零二會議室出席委員蘇曉慧委員等十四人列席委員楊瓊英委員等二十二人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1903.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1919.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席官员6月18日内政部部长刘世芳及相关人员行政院消费者保护处处长钟瑞兰国家住宅及都市更新中心资产管理部主任曾淑英6月19日内政部部长刘世芳及相关人员原住民组委员会副主任委员古纵格拉方案及相关人员 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1920.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1939.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
法务部参事廖江县卫生福利部社会及家庭署前任视察庄金珠及相关人员财政部副税署副署长宁立新教育部高等教育司专门委员赖冠伟国家住宅及都市更新中心资产管理部主任曾淑英主席刘昭记委员许婷6月18日报告事项因选赌上次会议意识录决定确定 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1939.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1958.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
二 邀请内政部部长 行政院消费者保护处处长就公寓大厦公社点交争议及其处理与预防作为进行专题报告并被质询内政部部长刘师芳报告 委员苏晓慧等19人质询分别由内政部部长刘师芳及相关人员行政院消费者保护处处长钟瑞兰答复说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1959.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1977.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
决定一登记发言委员处不在场者外区域均与发言完毕询答结束二委员高金素美杨琼与所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报三书面质询及未及答复部分请相关机关于一周内另以书面答复并复制本会询答结束后宣读住宅法第21至38案提案条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1978.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2001.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
6月19日討論事項繼續審查住宅法修正草案計20案審查住宅法修正草案計18案委員林月琴、羅志強、王紅薇、李柏毅、蘇曉慧、陳金輝、王美惠說明提案要指後進行大體討論決議一請行政機關就大體討論所涉議題於二周內提出相關資料並立後續逐條審查二討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2009.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2022.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
如果沒有的話議事錄確定各位委員各位委員上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑惑好好謝謝好我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2026.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2050.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
宣查委员王定宇等18人拟据诈欺犯罪危害防治条例第54条条文修正草案宣查委员廖先祥等18人拟据诈欺犯罪危害防治条例第43条条文修正草案宣查委员张宏禄等30人委员林一锦等27人委员王一川等16人委员陈素月等18人分别拟据诈欺犯罪危害防治条例第47条条文修正草案宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2052.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2074.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 我們現在介紹在 繼續本日議程所列討論事項合併巡打現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們在場的有蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員王定宇委員黃立昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2077.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2099.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我剛剛有看到高津還有內政部劉部長警政署張署長法務部徐次長我們現在請提案委員說明提案要旨我們先請王定宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2108.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2132.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝昭偉本席來內政委員會進行提案說明提案說明如下打詐是近年來我們政府非常重要的工作就如同光與影的競爭一樣再怎麼光明黑暗都永遠會在那個地方受害的人並不會因為我們偵辦的數字的量化 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2133.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2160.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他自己個人他被傷害的地方就會得到紓緩這個是詐騙案受害者的特色形態也很多根據我們法務部在2025年5月19號公佈的數字在打詐三法通過之後在警政單位大家一起努力包含宣導後確實我們在詐騙相關的犯罪的案件量 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2162.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2169.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
以及他的損失金額有下降的趨勢分別是被偵辦的對象有25622人涉及詐騙相關的金額達到242.23億 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2179.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2193.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們觀看偵辦出來的人數就曉得詐騙這個暗黑產業其實參與的人相當多那本席這一次提案修法的部分呢是針對在後段 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2198.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2221.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
偵辦破案之後相關的犯罪人在為賠償相關的詐騙所得的時候應該要負起什麼樣的責任我們都知道打詐有分成第一個階段是預防犯罪不管是宣導啦分析犯罪模式啦等等甚至於把因為涉及詐騙案所付出的代價做出社會教育打詐另外還有一個階段是偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2223.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2239.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
制裁相關的犯罪那我們的警政署也好我們的各地的地檢署都把這列為偵查的重點目前也在努力當中但是打詐的第三個部分是在於討回公道對受害者來講討回公道一面 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2240.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2257.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
犯罪者必須受到重重的處罰一罪一罰讓涉犯的人付出他應該付的代價另外一個公道就是損失他可以拿回來我這邊有幾個個案我其中一個案子是他的媽媽被詐騙警察打電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2259.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2279.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然後錢騙走了之後還拿他唯一可以住的房子拐他去跟第三方我都懷疑那也是詐騙集團去借錢設定最後雖然確認是詐騙可他的房子拿去設定借錢借出來做投資之後他房子被查封拍賣了那個母親是老師退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2280.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2299.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
而且詐騙集團當初還跟他講不可以跟你孩子講所以他整個被詐騙過程是到最後走投無路才讓他在台南的孩子知道這位母親選擇親生雖然救回來了但生活在痛苦當中為什麼要講這個類似的故事呢當我們看到被查獲的詐騙集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2301.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2317.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他也被判刑了結果呢他的生活如常他的詐騙所得不知道移轉到哪裡我們甚至看過新聞媒體報導台中某個詐騙集團的家族是用那個詐騙所得的現金當作磚塊在堆城堡在堆城堡 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2321.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2338.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以詐騙份子經三審定驗被查獲之後他應該付出什麼樣的代價讓社會讓受害者感到起碼的公道我們在現行的制度下如果你欠銀行的錢你欠我們行政執行處的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2339.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2349.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他會禁止你有一些奢侈行為你不能欠錢不還你還過著正常的生活搭商務艙坐飛機去旅遊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2352.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2372.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
欠政府的稅金欠銀行的錢沒有還都可以有禁止奢侈條款了那騙來的所得沒有還卻可以如常生活公道何在所以本席特別提案我們參考消費者債務清理條例行政執行法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2373.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2388.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
的相關的規定增訂第17條之一的禁捨條款然後也在裡面訂出進行的調查程序審酌之因素以及違反禁止命令之法律效果希望讓這些詐騙集團詐騙分子騙錢不還 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2394.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2420.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在他付出相關的刑罰的代價之後如果沒有償還受害者的金額他必須過著禁捨的生活這是個最起碼最起碼的一個公道就如同我剛才講的欠政府的稅金我正正當當的生活我正正當當去銀行借錢只是還不出來有的都要列入禁捨的條款了那你是詐騙集團騙錢不還 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2423.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2446.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
卻可以如常生活我們不能忍受這樣子的不公道的現象所以本席特別提案進行相關的修法也懇請我們委員會我們內政委員會能夠盡速將這個條款如果在各黨派有共識的情形下盡快送出委員會完成三讀立法讓所有的詐騙集團在每個方方面面都付出他應該付的代價以上做提案說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2452.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2453.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
黃毓川委員謝謝主席今天我們幾位提案詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條這一條的提案的最主要的原因是我們很多的詐騙案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2480.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2486.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有這間詐騙的,實際參與詐騙的人他可能最後分到的錢很少譬如說他有這間電視,在網路上透過各種不同的身份進行詐騙,騙50萬,公司給他5000塊他可能有這騙50萬,公司給他5000塊可是這樣到最後,我們現在的規定就是說他給5000塊交回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2510.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2529.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
行人遇罪這樣他就可以去檢刑了法官這樣判的時候就說這樣他想他收到五千而已嘛所以這樣交五千回來合理啦我們現在的提案的這個修法的內容是這樣就是說一人給他騙五十萬一人交五十萬回來要背給這個董事長背給董事長那這一個案子啊當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2539.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2547.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我剛剛看法務部跟司法院有不同的見解他們認為如果要這樣全程自白偵查中、審判中都要說不然要審判中再說,這樣就不能遵守那司法院也提說這如果共犯三四的有人有膏、有人沒有膏這個沒有膏的他究竟要怎麼辦他就說他沒有錢,他說他沒有本就錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2568.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2570.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那這樣的怎麼辦那這些包括司法院跟法務部的意見包括要不要連動修正第46條相關的規定這個等一下大家討論的時候我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2585.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2612.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
也尊重這個法務部跟司法院因為他想要比較完美我當時提這個案子當然就是很多的詐欺犯因為這樣啊他就告白可能也可能都沒找或者是判冷清也不用這筆官所以相關的文字上如果負責的主管的機關法務部跟司法院有相關文字上修正的這一個建議也請兩個單位能夠具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2616.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2618.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
提出來 我們一起來討論 以上好 我們現在請內政部劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2635.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2657.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席召委各位委員女士先生大家早首先感謝各位委員對於打擊詐欺犯罪的重視跟關心並且對於內政部跟所屬業務上的支持與指導那今天呢緊救委員王定宇等18人所擬據詐欺犯罪危害條例第54條條文修正草案委員廖先祥等18人擬據 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2658.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2678.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案還有委員張宏祿等30人委員林怡瑾等27人委員王逸川等16人及委員陳素燕等18人鎖泥鋸詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條條文修正草案進程以下報告請各位委員不吝指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2679.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2701.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有關於防治及打擊詐欺犯罪危害我國在去年也就是113年的時候已經制定了本條例並且同時修正洗錢防治法刑事訴訟法與通訊保障監察法等打詐刑事法已經樹立了打詐法制的新里程碑那本條例由本部擔任中央主管機關並且由金融監督管理委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2702.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2722.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
国家通讯传播委员会数位发展部以及法务部按照业务执掌担任各目的事业主管机关主政不同的章节跟条文在本次会议审查有关委员所提的第43条第47条及第54条的修正草案分属第三章溯源打炸执法以及第四章 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2723.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2724.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
有關於本部執行本條例相關的成效按照警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2742.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2759.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
165打诈仪表版的数据分析诈欺案件的趋势本年5月平均每日受理诈骗件数是516件财损为新台币2亿8160余万元较去年8月平均受理件数及财损分别下降24.67与 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2764.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2781.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
36.87%顯示行政院的團隊推動各項打詐策略已經初步具有成效能夠有效的抑制案件發生與財損在市詐宣導方面內政部跟各個部會合作在本年1到5月的時候防詐宣導的資訊頁已經觸及6419萬人次全班攔阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2786.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2786.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在賭占方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2801.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2826.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
本年1月到5月共攔阻詐釣魚簡訊17萬余折攔阻境外來電147萬余通通報停斷話有1913門在防詐方面本年1到5月收報下架違法假投資廣告6萬余折Meta涉詐訊息9萬余折通報涉詐網站網域停止解析2萬余件停權涉詐LINE的帳號有8991件及下架APP |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2830.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2844.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
APP581件主罩方面本部都同各直轄市縣市警察機關運用金流資訊流及物流等多元管道主動查找潛在被害人在本年1到5月已經通報有17846人 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2846.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2868.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
成功攔阻的金額達1億3034萬餘元與去年同期成功攔阻6958萬餘元相比攔阻的金額有大幅提升87.32%有效精準識別高風險潛在被害人鎖定及防堵民眾重大財損在懲詐方面本年1到5月 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2869.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2874.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
偵破詐欺集團1547團查獲犯嫌12858人查扣不法所得315000餘萬元較去年同期已經有分別增加83.5%、62.3%以及78% |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2888.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2917.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那第三是對於各委員所凝聚的修正草案意見有關各委員凝聚本條例第43條第47條及第54條的修正草案的部分對於防止詐欺犯罪及保障民眾權益的用心本部深感敬佩對於加重犯嫌刑責附加禁車規定以及被害人獲得損害賠償之良善利益本部敬表贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2917.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2935.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
以下就各委員所凝聚的草案條文說明本部的意見有關王委員所提的54條修正草案的部分本部警政署偵破詐欺集團經常可查扣犯嫌以不罰所得購買豪車、豪宅、土地、高價精品等 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2936.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2958.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
違犯嫌如果刻意隱匿、規避偵查機關發掘恐使犯嫌仍能於服刑完畢享有犯罪之不法所得該提案鑒於詐欺犯罪行為人積欠被害人債務未完全清償前卻仍能享受豪奢生活除了對詐欺受害人極為不公也會誤導詐欺犯罪高報酬的表象 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2961.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2987.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
引诱他人从事诈欺犯罪影响社会善良的风气并为提升民事执行效能协助诈欺悲害人早日获得赔偿针对诈欺犯罪行为人增订相关禁车条款及执行程序因为条文涉及法务部及司法院执行事宜本部尊重委员提案唯一条文相关性建议增订为第53条之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2988.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3015.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第二有關委員廖先祥所凝聚第43條修正草案的部分該提案有鑒於詐欺犯罪樣態日益多元且高額詐欺犯罪對社會秩序與民眾財產權益造成嚴重危害針對詐欺取財達1億元者將有期徒刑的刑度部分由5年以上12年以下提高至7年以上內政部對於詐欺犯罪者的刑責一貫踩陰與重罰的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3018.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3045.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
經過了解法務部針對本條泥漿榨漆獲取修正為使人交付一千萬元以上之處罰並提高使人交付一億元之刑度與委員提案內容類同為內政部建議法務部版本有關本條各層級之刑度高低應該並同考量第四十三條第三項有關發起、主持、操縱或指揮犯罪組織者的刑度的衡平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3046.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3073.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
第三有关招委张宏禄等30人委员林一景等27人委员王逸川等16人及委员陈素月等18人所拟据有关第47条条文修正草案的部分有关提案源于最高法院刑事大法庭113年度台上大字第4096号裁定认定该条前段自动缴交其犯罪所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3075.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3094.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
僅限於行為人因犯罪而實際取得之個人所得包括因為詐欺犯罪而取得的被害人財物以及為了犯罪而取得之報酬性報酬在內並不包含其他共犯或所屬犯罪組織所取得之犯罪所得行為人如為實際 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3096.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3117.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
取得個人犯罪所得亦無自動繳交其犯罪所得可言於該裁定之解釋下將發生被告自稱未有犯罪所得僅需於偵審過程自白犯罪行為即可獲得減刑的寬幼與未處死被害人獲得損害賠償之立法本意相悖 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3118.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3136.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
本部認為積極促使被害人獲得損害賠償或取回財物方為人民最能夠感受政府積極打詐的方式經了解法務部針對本條以草擬修改減免刑要件並賦予法院依個案情節審酌是否減免刑之彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3138.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3166.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
內政部建議與法務部草案版本並同討論本條例自去年7月31日奉總統公布施行以後各部會具以訂定相關的執法跟配套措施並且落實執行已經獲得部分的成效在執行面上面隨著詐欺模式不斷的演化行政院團隊持續檢討本條例落實情形及研議精進各項防堵措施以及時因應新形態的詐欺模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3166.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3195.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
为部分措施因为涉及人民权利义务各公务机关购以及业者需有法律授权使得推动源于原厨委员提案之条文外各部会对于其他条文亦认为有修正的空间内政部将持续汇整相关的建议并且在相关部会进行研议为求谨慎周延将针对有修正需求的条文提醒行政院召会协商以提出修正草案报贵院来审查 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3196.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3225.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
在結語的部分經過行政院、立法院以及司法院在去年共同合作完成打詐新司法制定及修訂以後已經發揮抑制詐欺犯罪的初步效果為了保障人民財產安全跟端正社會風氣內政部持續與其他部會積極精進各項打詐措施並且將研議相關的修正條文以時漸進期盼各位委員能夠共同 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3226.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3226.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好,請法務部徐次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3244.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3267.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就病案審查王定宇委員等18人廖先祥委員等18名張宏祿委員等30人林怡瑾委員等27人王逸川委員等16人及陳樹越委員等18人所提有關詐欺危害防治條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3268.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3288.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
修正草案代表本部列席報告並被質詢僅提供本部意見如下進行指教行政院為打擊詐欺犯罪有擬據含詐欺犯罪危害防治條例等打詐釋法那感謝大院支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3289.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3302.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
打炸司法在113年8月2日生效施行後提供執法人員重要執法利器回應社會對於科技打炸的因應期待並從實體面加重行則強化規範密度 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3306.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3322.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本部身為打詐國家懲詐面向主責機關因應打詐司法施行陸續完成相關配套執法並配合114年1月1日新世代打擊詐欺犯罪行動綱領2.0版之實施持續督導所屬機關嚴懲詐欺犯罪並強化跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3328.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3349.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
跨領域跨機關的橫向聯繫以徹底打擊詐欺犯罪瓦解詐欺犯罪組織感謝各委員長期關心打擊詐欺犯罪議題本部由衷敬佩本部是負責第三章溯源打詐執法及第四章詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3350.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3374.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
被害人保護那各委員所提草案修正方向旨在嚴懲詐欺犯罪及強化填補被害人損失本部尊重委員之提案那本部對於各法案之意見一有關於委員王定宇等18人拟據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第54條條文修正草案那 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3376.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3403.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
提案的重點是參考消費者債務清理條例及行政執行第17條之一禁捨條款對於詐欺犯罪行為人未完全清償被害人前其花費不得欲願一般人通償之程度那法院得依職權或依利害關係人之申請對其核發禁止命令那本部對於這個草案的意見一偵查中一 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3403.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3431.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
詐欺犯罪違反防治條例第48條擴大沒收規定擴大查扣被告犯罪所得對於詐欺被告以可以發揮一定的嚇阻效果第二被告如果於詐欺犯罪過程中有犯罪所得那經法院宣告沒收犯罪所得確定後那依刑事訴訟法第470條規定應依檢察官之命令來執行沒收裁定裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3432.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3452.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
此命令與民事執行民意有同意之效力那又依同法第471條之規定此莫說裁判之執行準用執行民事裁判之規定那債務人若有事實足認為嫌有履行義務之可能而故不履行 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3452.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3473.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
或就因公強制執行這財產有隱匿或處分之情勢那依強制執行法第22條規定執行法院依債權人申請或依職權可依情節對債務人採取命提供擔保或限期旅行限制駐居、居提或管收等不同強制手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3474.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3487.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
第三 禁攝規定最初是屬於消費者債務清理條例債務人員清算程序後可與債務人員一定的旅行義務或引用於行政執行領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3488.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3507.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
行政執行法第17條之一明定禁止各種的奢侈行為應禁奢條款涉及人民自由及財產權之限制應採法官保留那草案內容如果要納入禁奢條款應配合詐欺危害防治條例第54條第一項相關民事訴訟制規定建議禁奢10點限於執行名義成立以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3516.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3538.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這樣子能夠確保當事人的權利跟義務關係那像法院申請強制執行程序的時候由法官依職權或依申請裁定禁捨內容且草案內容第五項關於禁捨金額建議是由司法院來定之第二有關委員廖先祥等18人擬拒 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3539.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3558.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
詐欺危害防治條例第43條條文修正草案提案的重點是詐欺犯罪被害人財產損失金額達新台幣1億元以上高額詐欺案件現法定行為5年以上12年以下有期徒刑徒刑刑度與其嚴重性未曾對應 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3559.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3578.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
原將1億元的集聚之刑度調整為7年以上落實了嚴懲詐欺犯罪之目標那本部意見盤點詐欺犯罪危害防治條例實行後高額詐欺犯罪的能屢見不顯此等犯罪除侵害個人財產法域外更因此危害社會整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3580.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3601.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
經濟秩序為嚴懲詐欺犯罪以強化對於人民財產權之保障對於將詐欺被害人財產損失金額達一億元以上高額詐欺案件之法定刑提高為七年以上有期徒刑本部競表贊同為件前一併提高並科罰金之金額以服彼立言則 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3602.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3619.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
第三 委員張宏祿等30人擬拒詐欺犯罪違反防制條例第47條條文修正草案提案重點 為使本條文能落實基於被害人之立場判斷是否符合檢刑要件故刪除犯罪所得之文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3620.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3645.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
修正為全額填補被害人所受損害或與被害人達成和解等文字以明確減刑之要件本部意見一 最高法院刑事大法庭裁定就現行第47條犯罪所得裁個人犯罪報酬說修正草案修正為填補被害人所身損害此與立法原意相符 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3645.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3663.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
且將因檢刑修正為得檢刑那賦予法官個案裁量權那本部竟表同意第二為為其適用明確建議以被告偵查及審判中全程自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或核解之全部金額等為得檢刑條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3670.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3694.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
又詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第46條是有關於這個自首的部分那是否並同修正呢也見勤考量第一次委員林怡菁等二期人理據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案提案重點為使詐欺犯罪行為人因詐欺犯罪所得之犯罪所得歸還 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3696.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3714.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
詐欺犯罪被害人落實填補詐欺犯罪被害人所受損害之目的修正為致其犯罪所得向被害人致富相當數額之財產或非財產上犯罪所生損失者方得減輕其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3716.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3717.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
本部意見1. |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3717.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3732.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
草案內容就檢行是由採填補被害人所受損害,使以立法原意相符,且將應檢行修正為得檢行,賦予法官個案裁量權。本部竟表同意。2. |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3732.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3737.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
為草案中非財產上犯罪所生損失,就細指 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3739.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3762.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
財產犯罪所造成非財產上損害或系非財產上犯罪所生損害於文字語意不甚明確見請再酌第三又為其適用明確建議以被告偵查及審判中全程自白並於法院原則辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調節或和解之全部金額等 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3763.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3781.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
為得減刑條件又紮違條例46條是否並同修正也見勤考量第五委員王一川等16人拟據紮期犯罪危害防治條例第47條條文修正草案一提案重點為明確紮期犯罪行為的人自動繳交犯罪所獲取財務之範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3787.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3808.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
以保障詐欺犯罪被害人財產權益為核心刪除犯罪所得之文字修正為詐欺所獲取之財物或財產上利益本部意見一 草案內容就減刑事由裁填補被害人所身損害此與立法原意相符 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3809.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3826.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
且將應檢刑修正為得檢刑賦予法官個案財產權本部競表同意而為為其適用明確建議以被告偵查及審判中全程自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前自負已被害人達成調節或合計全部金額等 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3827.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3846.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
為得減刑條件又乍違條例46條是否並同修正請進行考量第六委員陳樹越等18人擬拒詐欺犯罪違法防治條例47條條文修正草案那提案重點為使本條規定符合立法原意 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3846.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3873.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
被告所應繳還之犯罪所得應是其向被害人取得之財物而非其個人所得故刪除犯罪所得之文字修正為自動繳交其自被害人處取得之財物以填補被害人所身財產損失以明確減刑之要件本部意見一 草案內容就減刑事由採填補被害人所身損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3874.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3890.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
此與立法原意相符且將因檢刑修正為得檢刑賦予法官個案裁量權本部竟表同意第二為其適用明確建議以被告偵查及審判中全程自白並於法院延遲辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解之全部金額等為得檢刑條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3895.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3923.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
又詐偽條例46條是否並同修正也進行考量結語本部作為打詐綱領有關懲詐及保護詐欺犯罪被害人面向之主責機關會持續努力精進落實執法因此其能儘速完成修法以展現政府打擊詐欺犯罪保護詐欺犯罪被害人之決心法制面僅提供意見如上 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3923.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3928.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
敬請各位委員參酌以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教好 其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原例作以下幾點宣告本會議員發言時間5加2 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3947.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3961.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10時30分截止發言登記因為今天處理法案本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見好那我們現在進行詢問請登記第一位的舒喬會委員好謝謝主席我們請劉部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3980.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4000.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
來 委員長部長好 部長我們今天要討論這個去年8月剛剛制定上路的這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我想這個條例其實牽涉很多部會包括內政部 法務部 訴發部 NCC 金管會等等非常需要橫向的聯繫但是整體來講這個所謂的詐騙這個詐欺犯罪其實牽涉的面向要討論的也非常的多從詐騙案件的受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4008.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4025.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
到法務部檢察官的起訴及徵訊法官的審判然後甚至是最重要的對大家來講最要緊的被害人的損害填補我想這四大面向都是需要討論不過從今天各委員提出來的版本然後法務部內政部的意見我這邊也是特別想就 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4028.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4040.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
47條的這個部分來跟這個部長就教也就是也就是我們這個這個法官的審判還有被害人損害填補的這些部分那47條部長當初這個47條這個文字在這裡我就不再念了您記得當時我們制定這一條條文的立法意旨是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4055.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4079.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
請委員多指教一年以前這條其實要不然法務部可以講嗎署長您先來啦還是署長您要講我們最主要的意思就是要訪問被害人的財產的損失就是讓他的被害可以填補嘛對不對一個是這個嘛但其實還有另外一個目的法務部要不要講解一下沒有其他高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4081.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4084.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好在我認為是這樣子啦沒關係啦沒關係部長我們爭鬥時間後面很多我們這個當時的目的還有因為詐騙很嚴重所以我們希望用重刑度要拉得比較重可是在犯罪情節當中每個人的角色不同所以如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4098.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4116.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
如果當時說他只是個車手的話那也許那我們呢也給他一個不同程度的良心的狀況所以當時在立法政策的時候是說如果你有自白再加上返還被害者的這個被害金額損害金額的話我們就讓你減輕其刑用寬柔並濟的政策來希望一方面鼓勵返還損失的財產詐騙的財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4125.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4143.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
另外一方面是讓有坦白的空間 立法一直是這樣可是實際上從去年8月執行到現在來看的話我們從新聞上面來看 其實那個法務部如果可以先請回沒有關係啊 署長您可以自由啦 反正我主要問部長我們從新聞上面來看的話 其實很清楚啊現在出現了一種現象 叫作叫戰守則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4150.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4162.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
就是說我這個抓到了以後不然署長是不是有這樣的狀況新聞報導的是真的嗎也就是說我抓到通常抓到的是車手比較容易抓到犯罪集團的首腦比較難抓到結果抓到車手以後他就告訴你說這一條犯罪繳交其犯罪所得而且自白那我就可以減輕其刑那個是到點之後四個字減輕其刑所以每一個車手來就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4174.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4187.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
啊 我承認 我真的是齁 這個不小心啦 誤會啦但是齁 我做的這件事情不過五十萬裡面喔 我只收到百分之一啦所以我只有得到五千塊啦五千塊繳一繳 我又自白了我就可以減輕期刑新聞報導都是這樣 署長 有這樣的情形嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4192.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4212.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
確實是有這樣情形確實是有嘛所以本來是立法一旨好意區分刑度寬容並濟希望能夠讓更多的受害者得到補償希望讓這個犯罪者迷途知返結果反而變成是犯罪者的叫戰守則所以我們今天要來修這一條好那部長我再請問啦如果是這樣的話您現在看到剛剛署長已經說確實是有知道這個案件數有多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4221.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4244.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
其實你剛剛說的答案的案件數嗎對就是利用這一條的減刑的有統計嗎減刑要到法院減刑的部分可能就是在法院的部分才有這個數據現在目前看到這個的這個判例確實是這樣的判就是他自己本身對於他犯罪比如講他騙50萬他自己拿到只有5000塊用這5000塊來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4246.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4269.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
是啊是啊好啦我想這個因為時間的關係我們就不追這個數字反正署長已經說確實是有這樣的狀況了嘛那部長我也想請教一下那今天這個今天已經提出這個版本的委員喔有很多譬如說他是現在既然我們現在的善意立法的政策的善意我們現在反而造成了犯罪的空間那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4271.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4286.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們現在就乾脆全部收回這個善意所以現在的條文有些改成是要全數返還的全數返還的才可以有減刑全部一致改成全數返還的有委員的版本是這樣您贊同這個版本嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4288.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4312.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個部分恐怕在後端的執行部分會有困擾所以我們是建議就是說第一個我們很多委員要回應民意這個良善的用意我們都支持但是在處理的程序當中我想我們還是必須要尊重法務部還有司法院他們在處理的過程當中怎麼樣會更好因為你權術返還這件事情如果有整個共犯結構可能涉及到整個犯罪集團權術返還恐怕要實施20年以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4315.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4334.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那這樣子其實跟我們原來要修改這個法律的這個良善用意呢可能就會有所偏差好 我想是這樣因為等一下這個細部的討論喔我們在修法的時候還可以再一一辯證喔但是在這裡的話我們就先確認內政部的態度當時的立法用意有協助追溯 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4334.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4357.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
被害者的金額要求返還區分犯罪者犯刑不同而有不同的刑度量刑這是善意但現在如果一面全部關上這個大門就是把這個變成所有的人都是返還所有被害者的金額比如說這個車手假設假設他真的誠意悔改了你要他一個人交出五十萬才有可能減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4358.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4385.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這是不是又太重把過去的扇門關上全部這樣是對的嗎所以我個人啦剛剛我們提出了一個修正動議喔我是把這個整個條文區分成兩個層次第一個的話是在審判中全身自白然後有犯罪所得自動繳交者得減輕其刑也就是說你做完了這兩個要件之後法院還是可以可以來量處要 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4386.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4409.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
會不要減刑期刑不像過去是直接就進入了一定減刑的部分這是第一個改變但後面的話是在驅分的第二階段就是在法院言辭辯論終結前支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額者才是直接列入到 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4410.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4436.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
直接的減輕或免除其刑我想這是我個人的意見啦我也已經提出了修正動議的版本送上來等一下我們修正的時候可以再討論所以最後啦剛剛既然知道內政部這邊還有法務部的方向我想再利用再一點點時間跳題講另外一個部分剛剛是法條修正的部分剛剛部長有講到我們的打詐儀表版的部分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4437.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4464.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我想這個瀏覽人次現在是確實非常的多民眾也都會來看這個不過部長我個人在看這個的時候我實在是我們辦公室在看我們確實是有一點意見這個瀏覽人次這麼多的打詐儀表板你看它下面它這裡表達的這個資訊方式是626是戳截至今天6月23星期一的詐騙受理數 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4466.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4470.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
626件 這沒有問題嗎表示我們積極有很多案件然後接下來他示例的是財產損失金額高達2億6千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4477.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4501.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
沒關係 我不是在跟你追究這個資訊的正確與否 而是你在一個政府打詐的成效表上面 你宣傳的是民眾的損失金額這到底是在宣揚政府做得好 還是在幫詐騙集團說哈哈 我騙到了好多錢這裡不是應該要把它變成是追還返還的被害金額 表示政府把 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4502.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4523.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
被詐騙的金額追還了多少 返還了多少 這個才是政府曾經人民的有感嗎我們在處理有關165打詐儀表版是只要民眾報案的話 我們表示說中間並沒有黑數就直接把它放上去那所以呢 未來如果經過包括我們的檢警調單位出來有關於是返還多少錢的話在下面 下面的一個統計資料就會出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4525.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4554.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那這個是當天的就是前一天24小時的時候全台灣發生的是有多少那真正的這個財產損失金額是報案者的財產損失金額是不是真的是這樣子的話還是有待於要有經過一定的確認沒關係就是政策都可以討論嘛這個利益良善因為政府最宣傳這個所以我現在告訴你說我們其實看完了之後是這樣既然你也有追溯的追回的返還金額那那個返還金額要不要有更明顯一點的地方讓大家知道政府的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4555.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4558.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我想這是一個可以參考的地方謝謝委員指教我們會來修正好我們請張志倫委員好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉世芳劉部長好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4579.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4599.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
委員早部長早今天非常感謝不管是內政部金管會NCC速發部各位的長官今天都在現場那今天講的是有關於有關於詐騙我們這個修法的一些內容可是我想民眾更有感的是現在詐騙金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4601.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4615.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
每個月不斷上升我們看到很多被詐騙的民眾只要一被詐騙簡直就是業不能請就是食不下宴非常的可憐當然看到今天內政部的資訊說在今年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4618.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4640.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
的看起來好像詐騙的數量跟金額跟去年8月打詐欺表板的比較起來好像是有稍微下降一下可是大家知道去年8月那時候剛打詐欺表板剛上路的時候那時候的詐騙金額很多那如果我們從這個今年三四五月的金額來看我可以簡單來跟大家報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4641.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4648.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
今年3月份詐騙數量16000件詐騙金額損失70億今年的4月詐騙數量15961件詐騙金額往上升76億今年5月詐騙的數量1603件詐騙的金額高達87億在大家如果可以上網查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4667.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4692.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
在這個月6月15號到6月21號一週詐騙的金額就高達21億詐騙的數量高達3909件所以我必須今天要跟部長跟我們所有在場的官員大家報告的是說我相信政府單位也看到民眾他的難處看到被詐騙的人的心酸 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4692.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4718.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
可是現在的數字代表的就是詐騙的金額跟數量節節攀升那我希望說大家在開這樣子的質詢或者在開討論這樣的事情的時候不能說好像大家都認為說好像詐騙沒有這樣子的發生的數量沒有再往上升我覺得這樣子的話會讓大家覺得我知道大家有在努力可是這個數字大家可以看到現在詐騙的不管是手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4719.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4738.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟詐騙金額被受害的人數是越來越高所以在這邊我也要拜託今天這麼多各部會的長官在這邊一定要苦民所苦好好大家跨部會來協調來處理這樣子的詐騙案件就像我們上個會期跟劉四方部長在113年的7月21號其實打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4741.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4766.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
打詐的新法令都已經上路了所以以及現在大家在討論很多打詐相關的法令其實我們立法院是願意給我們各部會支持跟協助給大家很多的工具可是我們現在看到的不管是金額跟數量都非常的高一年如果我們這樣換算下來一年詐騙的金額將近千億所以真的是讓本席讓我覺得非常不能接受而且我們真的面對到很多受詐騙的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4768.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4795.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
他們真的是非常的不僅家裡造成了很多的紛爭很多人到現在都是很長期的精神的壓力跟後遺症都蠻多的那接下來我要請教今天要審查詐騙這個犯罪條例的內容那我想要跟部長報告幾個新型的詐騙的形態跟樣態要跟請部長來協助也可以帶回去跟各部會來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4796.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4820.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那現在詐騙手段隨著科技進步不斷更新連AI人工智慧或是Deep-seek也變成詐騙集團使用的一個方式而且用的越來越如火純青尤其警政署在165的全民詐騙網也提到說詐團現在會用AI假冒檢警來模擬出真實的語音跟臉孔進一步讓被害人落入陷阱 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4820.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4846.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我想要請教我們現在的政府單位針對這種AI Deep Seek的模擬比如說我現在進去一個投資網突然我被邀請到一個投資網他說我是某某投資的名師我根本沒辦法分辨他是某某投資的名師是不是他創立的網站那現在他更厲害的點他可以模仿這個詐騙名字的聲音讓被害人更加相信說這個網站就是某某投資名師的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4847.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4873.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那對於現在這樣的機制我們有沒有相關的法令或是對防詐的技術有沒有相關的一個因應的措施是不是請部長或署長來幫我們回答一下謝謝張委員我們都有同理心來處理有關於這個詐團裡面對於犯罪所以才會今天委員提案要加重其刑那我們都會很努力來處理那相關你剛有提到說假檢警的部分我是不是請署長來跟您回應一下好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4874.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4903.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
委員好 目前委員所提的就是新型的一個炸機 假檢警的一個炸機就是AI DeepSeek的深圍的技術 DeepSeek深圍它用視訊的方式 用那個場景包括假檢查 假檢查關註假檢查用視訊的方式 是那這個是用AI這個生成這個技術的一個模擬的一個一個詐騙的方式 是那這部分我們目前也會做加強的做一個宣導或做做查集的一個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4903.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4920.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那我們在第一時間都會把這一些的訊息就是對於這一些視障讓民眾知道這一些沒有在用這樣的一個一個公共機關沒有在做視訊這樣的一個方式讓民眾能夠第一時間能夠了解這一個是一個詐說 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4922.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4941.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那我請教署長,那現在如果是這樣的話,就是我是偽裝,可是我不是真正的檢警,那這樣子的話我們現在台灣有相關的法令可以處罰他嗎?就是你相信我了,你相信這個詐騙人,可是他有沒有相關的法令,說這個的確就是犯罪行為,還是說他就是誤自己本身受害人自己的誤解的意思? |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4942.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4957.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
對 這個是一個深為的一個因為我要跟署長報告就是像現在在美國啊也最近通過了就是AI相關的法令就是針對詐騙的形態的犯罪的法令那現在台灣目前來講還是還沒有相關的法令這個我要提醒署長跟部長的部分那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4958.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4977.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
台灣已經這個詐騙集團已經跟上了這樣子的詐騙的方式跟手法會被我們宣導了以後可是這樣子的加害人他其實是可以逍遙法外的你誤會我啊可是我沒有說我要我就是你這被害人就是他沒有一個法令他可以去來告發這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4978.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4999.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那這個部分看看他就是對於這一些一個他的這個行為的一個狀況來做一個依據嗎那我們為了看他的這個方式是怎麼樣來做一個研究一個相關法律來做一個規範好那是不是給署長一點時間如何要來宣傳因為現在我現在如果沒有相關的法令那執行上你如何去宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5000.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5015.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我個人覺得宣傳最好的一個管道都有兩個面向第一個就是一個電視的媒體或者是網路平台面比較廣的這個部分我們會把這個做一個影片跟案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5016.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5041.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
影片跟愛意來做推播的一個宣導那再來就是在哪個平台上可以看得到就是在電視或者網路平台都可以看得到我們未來會朝這個是一個一個新型的一個詐騙的我們會製成一個影片來做一個宣導提供給各相關單位來做宣導但是兩個管道就是我們上次在立法院有特別提到就是一個網路媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5042.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5047.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
或者是電視的一個這樣的一個平台來做一個宣導讓這個面更廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5049.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5068.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
是好謝謝那部長不好意思我可以再請署長再請教一下那現在還有另外一種的詐騙其實剛剛我們警政署或是詐騙儀表板其實有統計出來說詐騙最大的五個形態分別是投資假投資詐騙網路購入詐騙以及假冒買方來去騙賣方的一種詐騙或是假交友 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5073.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5086.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
主要是徵婚那也是假交友或另外是投資所以整個型態來講大概是以投資詐騙為最大宗那現在最近我遇到了很多的詐騙案例也是特別討論說投資詐騙的案例非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5089.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5111.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那很多就是說對虛擬貨幣有相關興趣的民眾在抖音認識網友然後對方透過LINE聯繫來推薦投資機會那讓他去下載一些APP的一個部分來去做詐騙的一個情況那最後我想要請教署長你們有沒有在偵查的部分就謹慎署的角度針對這種投資詐騙你們要如何去查起 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5112.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5132.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那包委員現在投資詐騙是大概就是詐騙裡面的這個金額最多而且時間最長委員你這個裡面的資料Wallet的APP這是一個冷錢包的一個就是把錢藏在這裡面的一個詐騙的一個手法那這部分我們檢定署都有專責的一個一個單位會對這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5137.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5153.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
請問是哪一個單位?包括刑事局、縣市警察局的刑警大隊或各分局的偵察隊會針對這些投資的這個詐騙的部分會比較做深入的去做蒐證那我們這個部分也都破了非常多從今年1到5月就破1500多團的這些的一個詐團 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5157.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5162.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
所以我想我們的這個偵破的這個能力都有這個部分也跟委員報告那我們現在這個檢舉組的這個就是配合法務部的這個懲詐這個成就要多比 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5170.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5196.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
往年都進步了非常多我想這也是我們一個一個宣導以及查集的一個重點好最後還是要謝謝署長跟部長我相信大家都非常的辛苦那每年我也要跟署長跟部長報告每年我們都會開一場公聽會那希望收集各位專家所有被害人的一些意見那希望說我大概每年大概年底的時候會辦那到時候再拜託部長署長以及各位我們各單位的長官一起來討論謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5204.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5217.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
蕭主席 有請部長蕭主席好 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5229.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5245.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我們今天審查的是詐欺犯危害防治條例最近有一個很誇張的案例我們想請諮詢一下台南有一個就是假借總統乾兒子的名義詐財商議員已經就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5250.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5276.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
在台南安平區已經落網所以要請教一下我們這位嚴大軍通緝期間你們有沒有成立重大射陣詐騙專案或有的話是不是開始打詐了嗎 有這樣子的還是說因為他是通緝在6月11號在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5278.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5293.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
機場就把他留下來所以呢到最後就把他輕輕的就把他放回去所以這個是怎麼回事可以請教一下嗎委員首先這個我們所了解的這個嫌犯不是總統的乾兒子 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5296.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5314.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
他宣稱假借他不是總統的乾兒子因為我在台南也服務很久那第二部分他的這個詐騙的方式跟我們一般現在的詐騙是不一樣的他這一般的這個詐欺的就是我們刑法詐欺罪裡面的這些的詐欺跟現在的這個實行這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5316.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5324.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
不管是在有機房啦有水房這些的炸樹炸片的方法是不一樣的它是屬於一般的這個炸氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5325.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5330.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
一般詐欺就上議員了所以我現在是說不是說他讓你來分析詐欺的形式我們要讓你說這個詐欺詐欺已經通緝在6月11號在機場已經扣留了但是還是放他就是放他出來所以我們就是詐欺打議員就是明顯就是說這個詐欺集團的指標人物 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5354.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5369.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
但是你們在境內還讓他潛逃那麼久是誰在包庇?沒有人包庇為什麼就是可以那麼久呢?這個案件我目前了解現在是生壓已經壓起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5371.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5378.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就是因為我們有媒體在問啊有媒體在爆料才會去生壓嘛所以在機場的時候沒有其他壓起來就把它放出去了所以我們就覺得懷疑啦是不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5387.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5395.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
當然是沒有發出去才抓下來的嘛本來就是6月11號在機場機場就應該就把他抓起來了但是你們就把他綁出去兩週內還會把他就是因為呢就是因為他真二代所以再詐欺了3億元所以在境內就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5409.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5436.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
後面就是因為太多媒體在逼問了所以你們才要去辦我們一定是依法執行啦不會去做這一些的我們一定是依法執行依法執行我們就問的是說為什麼已經是通緝犯在6月11號不給他出境就趕快扣留啦通緝沒有通緝啊就是通緝一定是他有做境管才會才為什麼如果他出去了呢現在他漏網了嘛有境管怎麼會有境管就不會跑出去啊如果他出去了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5436.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5439.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我儘管就不會跑出去了沒辦法出去就把他扣留料來去查嘛你們還把他放出去沒有放啊沒有放還在我們的境內兩週一兩週內才抓起來所以我們覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5454.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5477.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
可以打折這樣子的總統的名義招搖撞騙還有就是我們市長還要幫他背書在這樣子的一個有背景的通緝法所以你們根本就不敢碰他所以我們人民才是可憐我們是依法沒有說不敢碰沒有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5478.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5491.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
沒有這個問題到現在為止到現在為止已經因為在報紙一直在登你們才要去去抓他所以我們是要請教一下我們用的打炸2.0用了200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5496.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5518.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
兩百億來去說要一個打仗但是呢這個是打著總統名義的招搖撞騙就是因為新聞再來去抓所以說我們請問一下這樣兩百億的預算打仗到現在在哪裡我們的預算花在哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5519.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5537.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
所以剛才有委員說我們署裡面的這個預算只有五十幾億而且都是在建置基礎的工作這個兩百億不是我們這邊的不是你們這邊的兩百億就是在這個是你們的預算裡面的還有說我覺得這個很好剛才我們蘇小蕙覺得說這個是不好我覺得這個很好因為你們宣傳不夠才把這個讓我們人民知道要警惕 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5547.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5564.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們每天都是被騙那麼多我們是要讓大家看到這一些就是說我們沒有抓到我們就被騙那麼多一天就被騙那麼多讓更多的人民看到說警惕因為你們宣傳不夠這個才是真正的讓大家警惕 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5565.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5583.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
不是把你們說我可以拿回多少錢 這個是做秀 這個是警惕 讓宣傳更好我覺得是這個不錯的 讓更多人看到說原來一天我們的打炸的中心就會用200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5585.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5600.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
去設個打炸來讓更多 一天讓人家可以被炸那麼多 這個就是你們的績效所以我們希望說我們在200億中有多少用在基層就是查記 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5601.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5625.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
查記的人力的補充 還有多少流向公關的宣傳招標的系統 標案外包 我們這個是不是這個詳細的內容可不可以給我們所以我們不能用百分之幾像你說的那種模糊所以我們希望說我們有那麼多預算 我們流向在哪裡 這個明細可不可以給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5628.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5634.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
沒有 我們的這個預算可以啊 可以給委員啊沒有 我是說要的是說 我們的公開宣傳還有招標的系統 還有標案外包 這些的是那我沒問題啊 就是對於這些公開的訊息我們當然都會給 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5648.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5655.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好這樣子就希望我們這邊要給我們我們希望就是說我們全國的政策為什麼地方基層都說警力長長就是沒人沒設備所以這個部分我們也希望說我們的政策不是在行政院在我們內政部記者會上的有效我們不要讓大家說政府花了200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5676.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5693.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
在打仗讓人民一天被騙了兩億這樣子打仗的效果所以我們說拿了這樣的預算我們希望說我們的這個費用的流向還有具體我們打仗的成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5694.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5709.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以不是說我們看到這樣你們的成果也要讓給我們知道所以我們希望的這個打炸不是來欺騙人民的是真真的是落實的所以我們不要讓這個200億是白花啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5710.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5736.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們的目標是這樣所以明年我們的預算又要開始了所以我們希望我們的預算進來的時候有一份就是完整的報告我們打造的成果還有我們的就是預算的明細所以這個部分我們希望就是我們的內政部還有警政署這邊給我們一份就是這樣子的全部的明細OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5737.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5753.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
可以啊 公開進行就沒問題好 最後一分鐘因為現在越來越嚴重我們的台版柬埔寨不是在境外的問題了現在就是本土詐騙 詐騙集團綁架 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5756.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5760.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
拘禁國人逼迫交出帳戶還有導致跳樓還有很多致死的這件事情我們不能裝不見我們希望我們的警政署就是對這樣的空置型的詐騙射點還有掌握度有多少還有我們內部的清查的報告有幾個被害家屬就是報案後還在拖延 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5783.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5798.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
變成就是釀成這樣子的死亡所以我們今天講的不是政治口水啦我希望的就是把這個真正的讓人民看到讓人民看到我們就是不要讓看到的就是說你們的統計讓大家覺得說一天被騙了兩億 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5804.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5819.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我們人民真的很可憐啊很可憐這樣子的不要讓我們的青少年變成就是免洗筷所以我們希望說我們要求就是把打詐的預算明細公開成效的指標透明還有建立對青少年的那個車手高風險失蹤人口的預警系統還有對 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5832.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5855.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
政商背景的詐騙案要全面追查不得關說也不得姑息因為只要政府一日從容人民就是一日無法安心所以我們希望這個我們的部長跟署長要把這些資料給我可以嗎可以好謝謝好我們請洪建斌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5870.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5872.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請我們警政署長好 請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5880.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5909.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我們去年7月12號立法院三讀通過這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例就是讓犯罪這個詐欺這個集團犯險的這個刑者最重可以處12年以下有期徒刑並得科新台幣3億以下的這個罰金那三年以上犯刑法加重詐欺罪或成立這個境外棘訪再加重二分之一的刑者 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5910.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5925.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
那關鍵就是為了要消滅這個我們犯罪的誘因嘛也擴大對這個嫌犯不法所得的這個沒收的範圍我們目標是要做什麼目標就是讓想騙的不敢騙那你騙了你不敢開那是我們最主要的目的嘛我們修正法就是說家中的行者嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5926.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5935.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那在經過一年之後我們台灣的這個詐騙案件仍然高居不下我們根據我們警政署這邊的統計我國的詐欺的這個詐欺案的發生數從2016年的23175件逐年攀升到了2024年發生案件高達118535件 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5947.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5970.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們今年2025到4月份現在已經達到64,990件幾乎已經是我們去年的一半了今年到4月就已經達到去年一半了那關於今年5月詐騙的金額已經達到87億了所以說有很多的國人會認為說我們政府一直在打仗可是越打越詐那實際上本省絕對相信我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5972.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6001.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
之前已經非常辛苦,而且很積極的在做打仗像本期在我們在地方跑行程的時候常常看到我們辛苦的遠景第一線就是所有活動他都會出來宣導,一直宣導一直宣導但是我們看那個新聞媒體,詐騙的新聞還是很多那這幾天還有一個新聞傳出來說是民眾把現金換成那個六公斤的黃金給詐騙集團,就現金換銀金所以他的手法一直在變,一直在更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6003.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6015.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以我們特別現在這幾年還有一個就是科技詐騙也是逐漸增加我講我最近那個AI技術的整個興盛之後詐騙AI詐騙更是彷彿盛訪那詐騙基本可能會透過這個複製聲音的模式那打給他的親友來騙錢那第一時間他就比較多分辨啦所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6023.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6046.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
對很多長輩來說他很難去分辨說這個地方到底是真的是假的那很容易受騙上當另外還有一些是偽造公眾人物的影像作為詐騙的方式進行欺騙的投資像國外就有詐騙集團是利用深圍的技術模仿馬斯克馬斯克外貌來製作推薦加密貨幣的投資影片導致民眾被騙錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6050.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6065.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我想針對這些新型戰的詐騙方式我想不能只有靠第一線的人員來做這樣防制更重要是我們要跨部會從源頭來切斷那主動攔截下架這些源頭的廣告那另外也要跟民間影響來合作阻斷這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6067.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6096.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
詐騙金流的流向因為他最終還是要領錢嘛所以這塊還是來做做努力啦那我想另外我們在監察院112年這個防治政府防治電信網路詐欺之對策與檢討報告指出行政院雖然已經動員12個部會推動試詐措施112年觸及人數也高達我們3億3千萬人次但居然以量取勝長期高度且重複之宣導有邊際效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6097.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6106.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
地檢之餘這寫監察院夠了就是他講這句話你看最重要是這句長期高度解重複之宣導有邊際效應地檢之餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6109.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6138.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
你一直吹那個量,你都一直吹出來但是看過了民眾反而他就失去了那個警戒性那我想監察院都說這個宣傳過多的效用會減低所以打詐不能只有靠宣傳那詐騙金就像本席提到的嘛詐騙金最終的目的就是為了取得金錢嘛所以我們要強化這個源頭的這個金流的管控跟起錢房子的措施才是重點那 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6140.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6167.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我想這邊要請相關單位這部分好好來加強今天我們數位部方也有來現場那這邊本席要具體建議說我們針對我們這個新型的AI智慧型的這個犯罪的形態的崛起我們要嚴禮這個AI打詐的專案小組來防範那也結合民間的一些專業力量我們共同針對這新型態的詐騙進行打擊讓國人能夠真的感受到我們政府在打詐上這有打到痛點那這部分署長是不是能夠回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6168.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6187.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好謝謝委員我想這個整個打造是整個國家是各相關道內是集體去做我們內政部也是其中的一個部分但是我們是擔負維護社會治安的第一線所以各位看到的大概都是先問警察那其他有一些像源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6188.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6208.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
源頭像這一其實源頭是最重要就是讓訊息沒有讓民眾得到這些訊息源頭的主調大概就會主調很多的詐騙這個部分我們相關部會在在努力各種策略當中那另外就是剛剛委員所提的就是詐騙是隨著我們打擊的方向他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6209.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6232.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個演變也是非常遠 比如說剛剛所提的這些AI身為的這些相關像視訊的這些都是比較是做比較是新型的那也是類我們這個打擊的目標那未來我想就是剛剛委員所提的就是在宣導這部分我們為什麼會製作這個打債儀表版有兩個面向 第一個面向就是說我們有很多案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6234.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6260.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們有很多案例會讓民眾去了解他是不是先在深陷這個案例當中一個是一個案例一個是一個宣導的一個效果那我想我們未來對於這個打詐的這個相關的策略會隨時來做一個變更那我剛剛也跟委員報告就是說從我們去年這個打詐司法通過之後尤其是詐謗條例從8月份事實上從去年8月到12月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6260.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6283.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
他的詐欺的這個每個月的詐欺的大概在七八百件那金額大概都120億那我們從今年的1月到5月現在大概就是在100億以下最低當然是到這個過年期間的60億到70億但是在4月份跟5月份有微幅的這個上升我們不是說打詐略有成效就 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6284.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6296.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
作為滿足我們一定是會持續在跟這些炸雞集團一定要更好的方法來做一個打擊對啊 謝謝市長 市長炸雞集團真的很可惡那些社會人員辛苦一輩子的生意或是他的國產分就這樣給變了 那很夭壽所以我們對打炸新聞就絕對支持阿本縣也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6310.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6326.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
第一線的人員真的很辛苦那處理費也很認真我們這個都可以感受到那我想但是我們還是希望能夠聚焦我們一定要讓民眾感受到打仗真的打到痛點大家知道說我們真的有在認真那關於立法院討論相關的這些修法本席也絕對都支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6328.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6354.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
蘇貞你說對了所以那個我們在打詐的在進化的過程裡面詐騙也一直不斷的在進化他一夜晚招筆我們怎麼討錢所以我們在想的就是說未來可能會遇到問題我們要先來議訪那也謝謝所有全國辛苦的警政人員那我希望我們來一起加油讓我們的這個政府能更有力的來監督來這個打擊這些犯罪的行為那我們一起來努力那也謝謝署長謝謝謝謝謝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6361.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6362.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
好,請王美惠委員主席,我們這間建政室跟法務部跟司法院好,請謹慎處法務部司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6387.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6403.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
市長 大家早上辛苦今天我們要來審大災犯罪危害的條例裡面最主要的就是說我們高雷犯罪的人可以遵守所以說 案可以合金辦但是在這個規定當中在今年5月 我們的大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6415.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6437.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
有公共,他們沒有犯罪,沒有適當的罪主要他們如果有坦白說,他們的做法,就可以減輕他們的罪行在這個規定當中,本身我認為這樣是不應該的今天我們要修這個法,我們想要補票給別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6441.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6455.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是怎樣 詐騙集團 說實在的 署長你們任何一個單位 我都覺得你們非常認真 非常努力但是在努力的當中 說實在 以我的價值去付出現在最近接到的 不是說跟人家吵架 還是請好 還是怎樣接到的逮捕人都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6470.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6472.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
給詐騙集團騙你啦在這個過程當中,本身也覺得說你騙他沒所得,跟他自己的心靈,他的運動,還可以檢慶我覺得這樣是不應該的最無稽罵,他要在場給騙的人,原諒後悔 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6497.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6505.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這才是最主要的 才有發動好主 才會做壞事的人 邀請請求的人在這個過程當中 我來請教你們三單位 今年的五位大法官的視線 會說這樣的時候你們兩位是不是要再加強什麼問題 來 請書長你先發表意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6525.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6542.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我聽林榮委員你的意見,就是你去犯這個罪,你應該要遵守這個相關的懲罰,所以我們在渣滓危險條例,這次我們發布法,也提出說,我們把他這個犯罪所得收掉,該做,以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6544.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6573.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
詐騙的這個財務,手持的財務,你如果要去他執行或者是民主期刑,你得到的就是賠償他的這個犯罪所得或是教育,乎乎該,剛才你說的這個,才可以去做這樣的一個行為,所以我們這次也是在對於委員所提的這個詐欺犯罪修正的部分,我們也很尊重委員所提的這個修正的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6574.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6577.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為蘇貞本席會跟你談到這個問題說實在的我覺得最近也好半年前也好一年前也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6586.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6602.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我認為我們的黨委 說實在的 都非常認真但是這邊的一團來說 他們想法 他們要扮演的手段越來越先進本身在這裡 也沒有這順序不是你們單純想說 現在又來扮演的情形 怎麼樣 首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6611.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6615.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
最近 你看會變的手段都不一樣對 會變來變去對 以前說你兒子 你兒子在我這裡 你要來捏回去嗎現在不是這樣 現在有很多方法像現在經紀 國標 他會用一個專家會分析人國標的時候在內裡面成立專責這樣是 說實在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6639.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6646.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
要再加強我們的單位來我們這裡法官來講出剛才本市所說的有什麼意見來委員好報告委員您剛剛講的應該是那個最高法院大法庭的見解對那大法庭基本上是對於這個法律不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6661.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6665.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
不同的意見做一個統一見解我們尊重大法院的見解因為你們的單位我本身在這裡跟你們說這個條款的時候你們有什麼意見沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6678.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6696.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為每一個意見 大家可以做參考嘛像我 我就不認同了跟你 你是認同說 主要一組修就好不用跟受害者修改這樣就可以了嗎我是要問你的意見就尊重貴院委員的修法 以權責機關的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6704.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6719.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
在討論主條或者是討論法條的時候我們也會適時表達我們的意見基本上原則上尊重修法的整個過程好來來我們正式有什麼意見來委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6719.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6725.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
因為現在這個問題是犯罪措諜這個問題解釋和見解不一樣依照這個大法庭的見解變成說彼此自白犯罪我沒所得或是說我只穿褲子而已這高材料可以減刑解釋有這種不一樣的結果所以我們現在為了要撇免所以我們現在要 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6747.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6747.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
因為有時候我們抓到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6775.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6777.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
是最好的那個車手他的集團裡面騙很多也騙很多但是他的車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6785.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6792.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我告訴你,本來就不可以賺這麼多錢,還在想要讓我們這間餐廳領到他說什麼?他沒有所得,又不是說我們不可以因為他沒有所得,他來自首,他來自白,又可以減輕他,這樣架盤他就大事了在現在年輕的當中,在這兩三年,年輕的所有人看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6815.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6821.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
都是詐騙的在這個詐騙當中,本席要跟你們說的就是我們不能讓他們覺得,他們沒有所得最主要是你自白,還可以檢慶你的罪行這樣,會詐騙集團的越來越嚴重啦尤其我們中央民國的小年紀,也沒未來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6841.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6850.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
因為現在詐騙集團都用少年基來騙人說實在,我跟這幾天,我們辦公室的助理找這個資料給我看說實在,我看到很心疼 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6859.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6876.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我願望每一個單位可以去輔導像剛才蘇長說的很好可以在電視部或是網路部叫這些人不太方便尤其年輕人你看這三天遭遇的不是越來越少是越來越多人所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6889.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6893.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
在這個過程當中,我認為我們是要來報法王,讓這些孩子知道做車手也有非常嚴重的做不到事情所以我們的法要越頂越硬,讓這些年輕人出社會的時候,知道不可以後悔來,做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6914.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6916.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
不然現在做廁所,硬硬的,開門開門,再來捏一下,又有錢所以在這裡要臨時,臨時有一個單位說,我們要加強這個法,要讓做不對的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6932.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6943.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
要怎麼去出門,第二點,讓他做不對的,會擋在他的四周圍,臨位,不能這樣做,這樣是要去弄歪的,以上好,我們請黃姐委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6960.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6963.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好謝謝主席我們先請劉部長好部長好首先要跟您請教一下前兩天我們有一個知名的政論的主持人李政浩他因為在節目上面發表他個人的政治評論結果被天道盟威脅那甚至一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6987.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6995.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
一個霸團就是在新店的霸免羅明才的霸團的領銜人也因為他們正正當當行使公民權來行使這個霸免的活動結果遭到天道盟的關切我不知道我們內政部跟警政署這裡有沒有掌握到這樣的消息那目前有沒有想要加強的做法我必須要說我們人民正正當當的行使公民權 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7012.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7037.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
然後用言論自由在這樣民主法治的國家行使我們的言論自由竟然因為要參與罷免而遭到黑道的威脅恐嚇這件事情非同小可啊這已經是嚴重觸犯恐嚇罪甚至傷害罪甚至是選罷法妨礙這些民主自由的進行都已經是嚴重的侵害所以我認為這件事情警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7038.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7042.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
一定要嚴加的追查甚至是應該要大力的掃黑才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7043.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7067.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
先請部長好了謝謝委員的關心我想不管是罷方反罷方我們一定保障言論自由然後在警政單位追查這些所謂阻撓我們自己在發表言論自由的任何樣態行為只要違法我們都是嚴正來執法那您剛所提到的兩項是有關於黑道介入的部分那個偵查方向我是不是請張署長跟您做個簡單的回答好 請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7069.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7083.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好 委員好 那對於這個李志浩這一件我們受理完之後就立即就偵辦 那很快的就是會把除了是第一天查獲一個嫌犯之外 我們發現後面還有一些這個嫌犯 所以我們在昨天已經把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7085.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7105.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
第一時間參與的這些嫌犯是有查獲大案那當然我們初步了解是有幫派被檢這個部分我們一定是會嚴加來做一個偵辦這個絕對是不手軟這個是我們檢控立場一定是嚴正執法而且會打擊這個黑道幫派去介入這些相關的一個犯法的一個行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7106.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7130.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那另外對於這個我們了解的大概就是在訓練的部分大概有兩件那目前我們也是有立案檢察官只會在做偵辦當中那我們也會依法來做偵辦那至於這一些對於我們遭受到這些相關的一個不管是恐嚇或傷害的這一些的團體我們加強做這些安全維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7131.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7136.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
以及這個聯繫這個通報的一個平台會做這樣的一個相關的一個措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7137.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7163.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 謝謝署長說明我在這邊還是再次強調這個月必須要確保所有正當行使公民權的人民都不會遭受到恐嚇跟威脅的這一些恐懼這個要拜託署長因為包括今天這個罷免羅明財的罷團要進行補件了那他們現在所有人都非常擔心會不會在補件的過程當中遭受到人身安全的危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7165.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7185.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那我認為這都是在一個民主法治國家絕對不應該發生的事情就算要罷免我的人我都是幫他們指路我甚至受理他們的陳情我從來沒有想過要用威脅恐嚇來面對這些跟我有不同意見的人這就是民主的實現啊可是結果罷免國民黨的人竟然要被黑道威脅這還有天理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7189.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7213.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以拜託大力掃黑是必要的大家在一個民主的國家本來就有權利行使他們的罷免權怎麼會因為他進行了罷免就要被黑道威脅甚至被辣椒水攻擊甚至連我們台北市議員林亮君許淑華全部都被人身安全恐嚇啊他們記得恐嚇性內容多恐怖你有看過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7215.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7231.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這直接都是威脅到他們說要把他們怎樣怎樣這個我在這邊不好講出來我看了都覺得這個讓人提心吊膽所以拜託這件事情請務必要關注無論立場如何人身安全都是最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7232.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7260.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
尤其是接下來這個月必須要讓大家免於恐懼這個拜託署長好 再來請教一下部長因為前幾天其實內政部發了一個我認為蠻重要的訊息就是這個針對500人以上的大型避難設施必須要納入建築物公共安全的檢查以及申報的系統如果發現設施的進出口如果有不通或是積水或照明不足等等問題可能要進行相關的輔導甚至是未來可能要開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7261.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7273.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那我認為這件事情很重要啦這個也是依據國安會的指示尤其是全台灣這樣子的設施都應該要進行盤點那我在這邊請教的是目前這個500人的設施全台灣大概有幾處 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7276.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7292.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
報告委員大概是2萬2左右2萬2左右那2萬6左右對跟委員報告一下我們在7月1號要公布的部分其實在建築法跟建築技術規則裡面就已經講得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7293.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7300.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
國土署所負責的部分大概就是在設施設備方面現在我們會請各縣市地方政府的包括他們的督發公務或者是監管單位來協助一下如果有需要協助的話我們會幫忙排除再來就是說裡面是否會有人比如說堆積雜物等等這些如果真的台灣有防空警報的時候也必須要請他們先做清空 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7318.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7327.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
是所以我們原則上大概先以輔導或者是服務或者方式來處理而不是馬上先開發沒錯好謝謝部長這就是我希望在這邊多做宣導的因為除了其實500人以上的大型設施接下來其他的500人以下的其實也要陸續來納管甚至是來輔導才對沒錯我希望的是納管要有個具體的時間表那讓大家都知道說這個都是在災難的時候或者是不論 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7344.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7359.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
未來有任何避難需求的時候這些地方都非常重要大家要非常有意識去做這件事情好這個要拜託部長我們再大力的下去輔導那當然也不要讓有一些老舊社區覺得說我們二三十年的老社區了結果一來就開罰那當然讓他們有意識是最重要的這個要拜託部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7364.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7393.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
謝謝委員指導我想我們在處理的過程當中一定會按照當時的狀況但是我們要在這個地方呼籲就是說我們不管是警政署的APP或是消防署的APP避難設施的這個範圍都是附近的100公尺內的而不是只有單一的所以在選擇這個避難設施的時候還是以自己自身在怎麼樣比較短的時間內就可以選擇避難的空間其實非常重要那未來我們會利用這兩者國家團結樂的一個宣導工作會再大力宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7393.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7416.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好 謝謝部長的說明那最後跟署長請教一下因為時間也到了等一下進行審查的時候我自己也有提一些修正動議那我是希望加強打架這個大家都要但是如何用有效的方式才可以不會變成說最後大家把罪都推給這個車手反而沒有辦法把這個詐欺的產業鏈抓出來我擔心的是這樣所以有效的抓出整個產業鏈我認為是今天討論的重點這個我們等一下就進行審查的時候再來討論再拜託署長好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7424.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7426.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我們請警政署張署長感謝署長謝謝署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7450.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7476.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我對你剛剛的回應其實我有一點意見要給你參考剛才公民黨委員提出來說新型詐騙包含這些模仿包含AI包含這些可能用很多生成方式來做新的詐騙的行為警政署要怎麼處理署長你記得你的回應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7478.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7507.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
加強宣導就是有一些要去做查詢我重播一下你說加強宣導第一個就是說讓民眾知道有這樣的詐騙的手法你說加強宣導重點啦加強宣導然後他要繼續問怎麼加強宣導是不是要透過媒體透過網路的宣傳的投放來加強宣導你也很認同可是你忘記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7509.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7520.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
內政部編列了這個兩億的媒體宣傳的經費被刪了多少被刪了大概八千萬對啦 超過30%啦這個你沒講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7525.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7554.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
你自己講的我們在審查預算的時候署長你自己講的詐騙集團我們查到一個詐騙集團抓到一個詐騙集團他花了兩億九千萬做宣傳費用他投放十五萬則投放廣告啊我們內政部兩億被刪那麼多我們怎麼跟詐騙集團比道高一尺磨高一百丈所以你剛剛沒有講我署長我對你剛剛的回應有意見的部分是你沒有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7556.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7568.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
張志文委員是你刪的這一筆預算我幫你說謝謝委員的這個指導所以我們今天要來立這個法來 署長謝謝來我請劉部長所以我們今天要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7577.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7604.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
其實部長上任以來就是針對這個打詐四法包含刑法339之四洗錢防治法第20條組織犯罪防治條例還有詐欺犯罪危害防治條例我們做了很多的努力那我們今天來希望來針對這個詐欺防治條例裡面有一個和解的部分來做一個修正那我也跟我們剛剛黨團的意見就是一樣對於這個第47條 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7608.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7629.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
部長我跟你說明一下被害人啊去到地檢署和解他被騙一百萬然後和解的金額是十萬我認為不合理那為什麼地檢署可以用十萬來和解的原因在於我們的第47條裡面說有和解就得有和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7630.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7637.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
有和解就應減刑那我們把它改成審酌他有沒有審酌他有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7638.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7664.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
把他被騙的金額全部和解這個對被害人才是有利的那我們其實剛剛我講的這個打仗事法裡面我們整個立法的方向跟目的都是往加重來往加重這個方向希望可以嚇阻詐騙集團也希望可以保護到真正的被害人所以我們是希望可以和解全部金額這個方向來做那部長就剛剛這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7667.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7687.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我舉的案例來講我被騙一百萬那和解的金額十萬我會接受,我現在我會接受啊,不在乎啦現在的狀況是不在乎啦可以拿回來十萬不在乎,還是被騙九十萬啊所以今天我們提出來的立法就是修正是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7689.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7699.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
當事被害人如果被騙多少錢那就希望可以用全部的金額來和解才有法律上的德減輕急刑部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7700.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7717.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
是我希望比較有彈性來處理剛剛講的部分就是原來我們還沒有修正通過之前的這個47條確實是比較硬那但是我們也必須要考慮到說未來在那個法院他們在執行層面上面有一個條件就是說你必須要在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7719.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7737.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
完成他的那個法院判刑之前呢要能夠跟被害人啊達成和解也就如果被害人覺得不夠譬如說您剛講了我一被詐欺一百萬啊只有啊返還十萬啊但是法院就叫和解了那他不同意那不同意的狀況之下要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7738.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7749.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
減免其刑我覺得這樣子應該要尊重我們那個犯罪的被害人他們的一個意見希望不要減免其刑那同時我們也知道現在這是犯罪的這個樣態變成一條龍真的是剛剛所說的分工明確分工細膩 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7754.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7779.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
倒高一尺然後磨高一百杖而且他們用的這個金額越來越大甚至有請到像有這個法律基礎的律師甚至像我們也在處理像地政事這方面的越來越多所以樣態越來越多的狀況之下我們希望這個能夠抓到原來的犯罪集團之外那他要不要免其刑一定要被害人自己覺得可以免其刑會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7780.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7806.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
而不是說法院就引用說只要你有繳回他自己車手的兩三千塊然後就免期刑那這個樣態已經太多了所以我們覺得說有修法的必要也尊重立法院的修正動議謝謝部長因為根據現行的法令那當然你知道詐團請的律師都比被害人還要厲害那詐團請的律師就會建議他你就認100萬你就認5萬就好了那相對被害人他就是被騙了95萬會 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7809.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7829.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
這個比例非常的不對稱所以今天的修法就是說被害人你實際上被騙了多少錢那我們就需這個法律裡面喔就是說和解的要件其實就是這一個所以我們希望等一下的修法的過程那希望大家可以朝這個方向來努力來 謝謝謝謝我們感謝李博義委員執行我們現在習一貞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7849.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7854.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長 法務部徐次長 還有警政署張署長部長好 次長好 還有署長好請部長看一下這個表格 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7867.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7882.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們現在看到的是打詐儀表板從1月份到5月份詐騙受理的案件大概是72500件那金額是390億元平均每一天大概是2.6億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7884.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7906.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那我們現在看到的呢 這個是警政署的打詐儀表板的一個數據那我們看到的其實不是高通報率 高破案率而是詐騙金額仍然高居不下因為這些391億都是我們民眾的血汗錢那我看現在剛剛看到一些資料說打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7908.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7924.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
你們成立了打炸國家隊的時候開了很多的會議嘛那也覺得現在目前是打炸有成那以這樣來看部長這就是你們口中的打炸有成嗎報告委員我想我們從來不這樣講我們有提到說對於被詐騙的人我們都是用同理心來對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7925.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7950.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好那當然了我們也知道說也謝謝立法院通過這個打詐釋法之後讓我們有一個法律的這個工具啊來處理有關詐騙集團的部分那現在那個很多部會都通力合作在處理但是我們也發現到樣態也一直在改變現在還是以這個假投資為主的詐騙會比較多所以我們現在在假投資方面包括跟金管會或者是其他的訴發部呢也是一起在慢慢的把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7951.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7971.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
類似的這個查找的被害人的風險的慢慢往這方面來移轉那所以跟去年比起來其實我們詐騙的金額是有下降可是我們從不以此為自然您說跟去年比起來嗎詐騙的金額有下降請問一下你們1月份到5月份喔查扣不罰所得有多少查扣的部分我是不是請署理我告訴你是31億5068萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7974.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7991.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
你看喔被詐騙391億可是查扣的不法所得才31億5068萬也就是不到一成所以所謂的高破案率高通報率其實呈現出來的並不是那麼一回事所以我覺得我們今天是要來務實的去面對這個問題我們絕對不是說警政署他沒有用心去防詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7997.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8025.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
而是說我們真正要去面對這樣一個問題而且也絕對不是內政部一個部會的事情有經管會有訴發部有NCC有法務部大家都要共同來面對才對否則警政署的人力有限他們也沒有辦法做那麼多事情所以我覺得針對這個部分我們今天主要就是要來務實的去面對這個問題因為事實上剛剛向部長講的現在的這個詐騙集團的這個樣態越來越多那尤其不管是主嫌啊車手啊機房啊他們的分工也越來越細緻 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8027.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8048.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
甚至還制定KPI那這個部分當然我們就必須要與時近鏡也就是我想今天會有這樣一個修法的原因那所以這個部分的話是不是可以請這個部長來說明一下針對這樣的一個目前的一個樣態你們準備要做什麼樣的一個升級打炸的一個方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8049.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8069.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
報告委員我想第一個就是說我們在過去尤其是今年我們提出預算的時候現在在警政署裡面得到的預算大約是70億上下那裡面我們會有一個這個科技的這個網路流量的部分現在正在進行當中那也就是說我們以往在處理的時候沒有辦法與時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8071.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8087.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
聚進跟著這個詐騙集團他們非常高的這個科技來處理是因為我們在背後確實是有這種預算要執行上的困擾第一個但是我們在加速進行當中請問一下我們有三警政署的打造的預算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8089.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8106.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
剛剛李博弈委員講說張志倫委員刪的,我不曉得他刪什麼,我們有刪這個打造的預算嗎?對,有一些有部分是有,比如講像那個,比如講就是那個對於這個我們對於市造的這個部分,大概刪了大概將近四千萬左右。你們總經費有沒有減少? |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8111.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8125.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
總經費有減少減少多少減少了這個部分我想應該要再去算就是說因為比較大金額就是減少多少你還不知道表示就不會很多嗎那如果真的不夠我們已經一再講的你可以追加預算嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8125.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8150.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
所以這個部分我覺得不可以在這邊隨便講這種話說什麼因為事實上我們非常非常的重視這樣打仗的成效所以在整個過程中我們都非常的支持所以只要警政署這邊有需要我相信我們其實藍白委員都是很支持而且很正面那剛剛您講的你現在還不曉得金額多少沒關係你回去算如果真的不夠的話我們就追加預算只要對打仗有利的誰會反對所以這個部分我可能請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8153.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8158.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
署長回去要好好的來去了解一下不可以在這邊這樣隨便的妄言說什麼因為誰刪了預算所以沒有辦法執行這部分請部長署長一定要來把這個部分釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8169.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8195.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那另外就是速發部在去年8月30跟google live跟meta三大平台這個合作而且積極的推動速發速發三件而且在記者會上也宣布在廣告的氾濫下是否有考慮修法明文授權平台必須提前審核炸頭的廣告否則還是重罰那還是要靠通報後才下架呢這樣會不會太慢請問一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8198.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8202.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
報告委員,因為抒發部他們有代表過來,可不可以請他們回應,因為他們是主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8208.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8232.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝委員 有關於這部分來講的話其實我們有積極在找Google那一Meta那這個過程中其實他們也會希望他們督促因為現在AI氾濫很嚴重所以他們會積極應用一些AI的科技來去防止那另外我們也是開發那個網路通報查詢網我們自己也有研發一個透過AI來預防偵測這些非法的這個廣告來有什麼具體的成效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8234.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8250.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們過去那個網路通報查詢網來講的話目前已經有下架大概12萬則的這個詐騙預防性的那個詐騙廣告也通通在24小時內完成移除那針對這個部分你們還有什麼精進的方案嗎你覺得這樣的成效很好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8251.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8272.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們還要持續努力因為其實剛剛有講過詐騙其實越來越多元那我們也需要很多的資訊其實剛剛有提到說不是鬼冒名的現在慢慢很多會贈送一些商品免費來去弄那這個東西我們會特別再加入一些關鍵字訓練一些AI的模型然後能夠及早因應發現然後及早能夠讓它下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8273.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8296.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那再請教一下那個部長內政部長就是我們現在詐騙透過AI的語音還有身為的影片還有賈克福模組的進行詐騙手法越來越專業所以我們在內政部這邊警政部這邊有沒有升級這個增防的能量比如說警政署跟165的中心有沒有導入AI比對還有即時的網路拔書還有IP鏈接的增援技術還有防詐的這個封鎖的機制我是不是請周局長跟你們回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8304.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8328.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那這個部分我們其實在我們有科技犯罪防治中心在對這部分做了一個應酬同時我們跟中央部會的其他科技研究院有哪些具體的方式剛剛我講的這些都有嗎因為他現在目前的AI的話事實上運用只是一些影像那事實在這個就是其他的部分並沒有是特別的發現說有對AI運用到這上面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8329.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8334.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
還有他們大數據的分析可能有所以AI的語音還有身為的影片還有這種假客服的模組進行的詐騙這個你們都有方式可以去去這個偵查到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8340.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8365.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這個部分當然確實我們還是有在防處啦因為現在目前看起來就是在假檢警的部分會用到那其他的部分還是用很傳統的那這樣傳統能夠跟得上現在這個詐騙集團的他們那種其實詐騙集團的重點他們事實上我們都有破解只是說他人躲在柬埔寨跟其他國家但事實上我們從菲律賓也有抓到這些類似集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8366.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8383.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
當然我們都知道他們現在機房很多可能都在國外所以為什麼要結合不管是速發部結合這個金管會還有結合其他的這個部會就是因為要來去針對這個部分要提出比如說怎麼樣反正我們現在講說因為機房都在海外所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8383.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8408.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
也沒有辦法查出來所以我們的詐騙的越大越炸再衍生出來所有的其他的機場我們都有查獲是不是對我想因為時間的關係我想說是不是可以請這個部長可以請我們的行政院長針對召開我們各部會剛講這幾個部會這個能夠跨部會趕快成立一個小組提出因應的方案不能讓這樣的詐騙越打越炸部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8409.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8431.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
報告委員 那個行政院本來 卓院長就有治安匯報齁那我們在治安匯報裡面的話會提報有關於這個整體的詐騙上面我們需要有的防處跟應變作為是 那可能要部長你們多費心喔 否則現在大家普遍的感覺就是越打越詐我們已經非常努力 我們也同理心來看到犯罪被害這個人的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8433.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8450.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
謝謝我們感謝習政委員質詢我們現在由習廷召委質詢謝謝主席法務部政次跟我們警政署署長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8458.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8485.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
委員好市長 署長早安我們今天討論詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的再修法這個原因當然是大概是第47條大家對這個東西有一些有一些要調整的地方就是說這個今天要修正的第47條本來規定就是說詐欺犯罪在偵查及審判過程中自白並且繳交犯罪所得者可以減刑期刑應該說應減刑期刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8490.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8500.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官扣押全部犯罪所的或查獲發起組織操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者減輕或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8501.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8523.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那現在法律上面大概有針對所謂的犯罪所得它就有不同的詮釋嘛有一說是說犯罪所得應該是指所謂的從被害人的角度出發啦我被騙多少錢這些被騙者的錢當然就是這個團伙的犯罪所得嘛對不對所以在這個刑事最高法院的刑事大法庭做裁定之前其實蠻有一些法院是採取這樣子的一個說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8523.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8546.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那麼另外一種說法是說犯罪所得就限於犯罪人嘛是從加害人的角度也就是說實際取得的個人所得因為詐騙是一個團體行為嘛這守謀拿到了一些對不對這中間幹部拿到了一些這末梢的車手也拿到了一些那麼犯罪所得如果僅限於行為人自己的個人所得比如說我車手出去對不對比如你幫我去搞這個收這個錢然後把它轉到哪一個帳戶給你五千塊的車馬費 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8550.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8565.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這一說就認為說那他的犯罪所得就其實只有五千塊錢所以他不包含其他詐騙集團成員的獲利當然也就不包含被害人其他的損害嘛那最後這個最高法院的刑事大法庭同意見解是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8566.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8582.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
看起來是採取個人的犯罪所得嘛也就是說車手領到五千塊你的犯罪所得就五千塊那麼這樣子的一個法律的詮釋跟切入點就會變成說那我被抓我只要把這五千塊繳回去然後我就把該供的人供出來車手也不見得知道所有的這樣子的一個真實狀況那就還減輕其刑那到了最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8587.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8611.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
是不是會造成賀祖的力道不足啊所以說今天有多委員就提出了這相關一個修正案但我在想說我們進到這討論之前我想要先釐清一下事情就是說我們在6月5號當初去年排審的時候其實也就討論過47條當初法務部反而是覺得那時候陳丁飛委員就有提案就說我就要把他改成德因為他就有注意到這個事情嘛可是當初院版是說希望建請委員在佐 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8612.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8623.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
也就是說當初法務部是支持願版也就是現在這種只要繳回犯罪所得只要自白就可以減刑期刑的狀況那現在又講說法務部又講現在要修法請問那個中間的變化是什麼保安委員我們這裡就是寬容並濟那如果說有犯罪所得其實最終的目的就是要還給被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8635.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8656.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我想被害人關心的是這一塊犯罪被騙的錢能夠拿回來那我們為了有效的鼓勵這些詐騙的這些相關的人願意填補被害人的損害於是我們希望強度強一點能夠減輕其刑這是鼓勵但是對於犯罪所得這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8657.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8671.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
卻發生了不同的解釋的角度那這個就變成說跟我們原來立法的原意有一點出入因為本來就是填補被害人的損失是所有的犯罪的所得都應該要還給被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8672.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8693.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
可是發現不對現在是採最狹義的就是報酬收那報酬收然後變成他會出來講說我只有報酬只有五千塊錢那法院認為這就是他個人的犯罪所得於是產生出這樣的結果那我們就覺得如果是這樣的話這個部分恐怕就要用修法的方式把它修了而且呢我們認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8695.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8712.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
這個裡面又發生實務上又發生很多他在偵審的時候他和解或者是調解可是條件講好了他並沒有履行他沒有履行的情況之下他也獲得了減輕期刑所以呢這個對於被害人來講是保障是不足的所以我們希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8713.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8740.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個部分我們所以希望再修法要朝嚴格的方向來處理嘛不要讓他隨便減刑嘛就是說你要有實質的填補被害人的損失我們這個時候才考慮得減輕刑刑這樣子對被害人保護比較周到以上所以現在法務部因為現在也有兩種修法一個邏輯一個是我們把所謂的犯罪所的定義講清楚一點然後另外一種是所謂把因改成德嘛就授予法官實際裁量那現在法務部的意見是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8741.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8756.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們是希望我們在就是說除了自白立審自白以外我們建議就是要支付跟被害人達成調解跟和解的全部金額得減輕其刑這個用意是在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8758.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8772.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
剛才委員講得非常清楚有的車手他是10個車手的其中一個他出來收10萬其他的90萬不是他收的可是整個集團的不罰所得是100萬可是他個人只有代收10萬他又只領到5000塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8774.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8792.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那我們認為說你不能叫他去負擔一百萬全部他一個人去賠我覺得這樣太嚴格我們認為他收了十萬應該就是十萬他應該去跟被害人來和解如果被害人也同意那就這十萬的部分他達成和解他陪他去領了那十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8793.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8807.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我們應該就斟酌得減輕其刑所以就是說看他拿多少願意繳回多少好達成什麼盡量補償受害人如果他已經盡其全力然後也願意自白那還是要給法官一定的財產權是用一個兩者兼有的做法這樣子的話不會所有的車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8809.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8823.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
他後來就通通都不自白了如果是這樣子的一個方向那本行基本上競表贊同那我是覺得這種反正細節法律上操作只要能夠有效嚇阻犯罪那都是一件好事我們樂觀其成好 我們請警政署一下好 速發部也支援 法務部謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8825.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8847.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個我們打詐儀錶板這個雖然好像有稍微下降的一些趨勢啦但是其實受詐騙的金額還是非常的高那我想喔這個最常被詐騙的管道依然還是各個網路平台的詐騙廣告訊息還是難以根除即便我們修正了打詐釋法但好像野火燒不盡春風吹又生蘇發布 想請教一下蘇發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8850.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8873.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
詐騙廣告金通報下架之後常常出現重複刊登的問題啊那我們現在開罰多少次了目前來講的話警政署有送了一批那我們大概開罰了100萬那其實有另外第二次100萬是100萬次還是100萬元幾個案例兩件兩個案例來警政署署長你送了多少案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8875 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8899.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我們分成一批是十五件 一批是二十五件一批十五件 一批二十五件對 那個十五件裡面他開罰兩岸第一批的十五件罰了兩岸對 現在還有一批去二十五件 目前他們還在審議當中你覺得他這樣罰了兩岸對於警政署打仗有幫助嗎我覺得還有努力的空間還有努力的空間 好 來 速發部解釋一下為什麼只有兩岸好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8901.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8904.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
報告一下跟委員講一下就是說這個目前來講的話就是如果有違規來講的話我們大概有12萬及時24小時下架這個都是馬上去run out行政處罰就讓他去下架目前開罰那兩件主要是因為他的那個廣告的那個資訊揭露不完全而導致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8919.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8943.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那我們評估之後呢大概當然有一些東西是因為系統或怎樣大概檢視一下就是因為這兩件那接下來警政署送的第二批我們也現在正在討論大概我們也正在討論目前正在給他一個展出意見第一批的15件下架之後有沒有重新刊登上去的狀況沒有那個都全部移除掉了全部移除保證24小時內就移除掉了他會不會等到傳過水無痕之後又給你重新出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8944.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8957.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
呃沒有那24小時都下架了不能讓他們匯圖轉身好不好我們要提醒一下啦好好是謝謝委員指導而且該兇就兇那再來我要問第一批15件第二批25件那針對平台源頭你們有沒有持續來做溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8959.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8974.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
你說Meta嗎?對啊,有,有在溝通,其實他們近期因為我們有發現為什麼會有一隻那個廣告揭露不完全的部分,那主要是它那個系統的部分,那我們請大家說這個你沒有理由,你一定要趕快去盡快去做修改,那其實這期間來講的話,他們陸陸續續從新加坡的技術團隊或怎樣都有來跟我們去持續溝通,然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8980.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8995.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
再來就是說我們也在跟他談一些有一些相關的情資的分享看看怎麼去共同來去做打大其實剛剛也有回答說如何應用AI的東西然後來去判斷他們應該互取接受 要去掃描去判斷嘛對對對 大家一起共同研究 今天時間到了啦是 不好意思 這個請速發部提供一下就是說針對這個源頭管理防堵你剛剛講說你跟Meta也好或者是其他的平台有做一定的溝通嘛 對不對做了哪些溝通摘要一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9003.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9018.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
第二個這個警政署也麻煩一下你送的這十五 總共四十件啦那大概的樣態是什麼 可不可以稍微整理一下你要讓我對照一下嘛 我在平台上還沒有看到類似的 好不好這樣我們可以來做會後追蹤 請提供相關報告給本集參謀 可以嗎可以 沒有問題好 謝謝 大家辛苦了謝謝 我們感謝紐西庭召委 我們請張鋒祿召委執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9035.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9038.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我先請這個署長咱家檢視署署長喂吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9049.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9069.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
署長今天大家有很多聚焦在47條的討論那其實大家的看法都一致啦就是不能單憑你自白你說你多少就多少這樣子就可以減輕期刑什麼的我覺得現在這樣子變成一個很大的漏洞不知道署長你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9070.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9087.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對我剛剛幾個委員都這樣的看法就是說他只要就是他自擺他自擺的這個部分大概就是只有他自己部分的這個犯罪的一個比如他這個被騙了一百萬他拿了這個大概只有五千塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9088.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9113.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
的這個狀況所以他對於這樣的自白對於整個我們防治一個炸雞的這個立法的這個原意大概是去有一隻反環人民最有感的就是他被騙了他能夠反反的這些財務我是覺得這個是有在做法律有在做填補的一個空間我們尊重委員的這個提議不是啦就算像署長講的你說五千嘛五千也是他自己講的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9114.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9140.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
對不對,如何去查證他真的是五千然後要達到署長所說的那一個目標所有的立委跟大家的看法其實都一致啦應該大家都沒有特別的看法都支持就是看文字如何去修正去把它用的比較漂亮比較可以去執行而已我覺得今天是這樣吧對不對署長對,沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9142.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9162.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
不然這個漏洞這真的讓被受詐騙的人其實會心有不甘我覺得我們應該要把他補起來另外我還要再請金管會的組長跟銀行局的副組長來金管會跟銀行局 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9177.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9178.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
來來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9179.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9208.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
剛剛我在跟署長討論的時候你們都有聽到啦齁我們這個修法就是要補這個洞另外如果說我們要把它返回所有的這一些錢它還有一個好處有可能這一個啊不管廁所或什麼它可以供出上層它才可以減刑啦對不對阿不然它用五千塊齁如果說拿五千塊人家一百多它被關我認為它也心裡有不平衡啦齁不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9209.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9232.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我必須要說我先請問金管會跟銀行局如果民眾已經報案了說他已經知道被詐騙了這個錢還要不要轉出去銀行還要不要繼續支付如果他是用信用卡他還要不要繼續支付這筆錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9235.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9247.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
報告委員那如果民眾他被騙錢已經轉出去他會去報案那警方就不是不是不是我說的是錢還沒轉出去的時候他發現了他就已經去報案了然後也已經拿到報案三連單了然後到銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9250.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9272.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
對不對 那銀行是不是還有義務把錢轉出去如果第一時間報案的時候 銀行端會做圈存也就是還沒讓第一時間報案 我們會跟報案完之後銀行會做圈存的一個動作這個備案就領不出去了 這個我們大概有這樣的一個措施署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9274.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9286.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我再釐清一下委員的意思是說聽清楚就是民眾被騙錢轉出如果錢已經轉出去還沒轉出去如果還沒有轉出去去報案應該也就是這個照片案件還不成立吧還不成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9303.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9326.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
他都已經報案了好,那報案,所以他民眾的錢還沒有轉出去嗎他自己的錢我還沒有轉給詐騙集團那民眾還沒有損失嗎不是,還沒轉還沒轉出但他已經報案了對不對,那銀行端也知道櫃檯也知道這樣子錢可不可以轉出去你這樣聽得懂我的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9332.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9339.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
他已經報案了已經拿到報案三年單了然後也去銀行講說這筆錢他已經報案了他希望不可以轉那這樣要不要轉出去如果他所以報案基本上是我被騙我轉出去那邊如果設警示帳戶那邊的詐騙集團的帳戶錢就不能再出去所以現在是民眾有沒有把錢匯給詐騙集團如果有的話我跟你講很簡單他用一月式的詐騙就是用信用卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9362.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9373.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
對不對那他已經去報案了說他被詐騙然後銀行端他的這個信用卡就是他已經刷卡了對還要不要繼續轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9377.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9379.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
如果這個是刷卡的話因為我們就是會有那個爭議賬款的處理因為有可能刷卡之後如果他可能銀行已經把錢轉給那個還沒轉對好那這個因為因為有兩種對因為兩種因為剛剛一直在講是轉賬可是委員講的是信用卡信用卡消費對然後那個發卡銀行還沒有把錢轉出去嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9404.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9422.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
對 那這時候銀行 就是民眾可以先跟銀行就是講這個狀況 然後銀行不是啦 他已經報案了啊對對對 報案 那報案你只要回答我 我剛剛講 這樣講銀行到底要不要轉 要不要把人家信用卡的帳轉出去來來來 你只要回答我這個就好了銀行如果還沒有把錢轉出去的話 他可以先擋下來對 然後他再去跟那個 透過國際組織去講說這個錢是有問題的 他可以先擋下來確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9434.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9444.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
對 可以先擋一下 如果他錢還沒有還沒有撥款出去的話我為什麼要這樣問呢 我不講個案啦但民眾陳情 你們都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9445.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9468.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
他就是一夜市詐騙他發現了他被詐騙了趕快去警察局報案派出所給他報樣三年單他拿去銀行說我已經被詐騙了而且我已經有了結果銀行還跟他講說不行這是什麼什麼公平什麼一些原因所以他這個簽證卡還是要必須要轉出去這是事實發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9469.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9480.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那這個洞要不要補起來因為那個信用卡他有信用卡組織的一些規定不是啦 對信用卡僅之是沒有錯那他已經確定去報案了啊報案都已經拿到了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9481.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9499.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
對不對他已經知道他被詐騙了啊那我們的銀行就是反正我不管你嘛你8萬是你的嘛我的信用卡我有一個國際的對因為信用卡他有國際組織的一個規定就是說刷卡之後如果人家請款我可能錢就要撥出去對那聯繫這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9501.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9513.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
好 你已經說得很清楚了大家都聽到了署長還有什麼這個就是現行的一夜市詐騙的非常大的漏洞非常大的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9514.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9531.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那我去報案也沒有用啊反正銀行也是這樣啊對不對我覺得啦我覺得啦應該要跨部會去處理這個問題雖然我們要符合國際的一個標準但明明這個就已經是詐騙已經知道是犯罪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9532.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9559.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那銀行反正我就不管你我就是這樣我還是把錢匯出去這個金額都不是大的一萬多兩萬的我覺得這個洞要補起來啊好 那個委員如果你有相關個案可以提供給我們我們就是會後我們再了解一下不是個案啦 是現在所發生的啦有發生的事實啦我不在這裡討論個案啦但這個就是已經真的很多次了這點我覺得我們政府應該要補起來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9562.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9588.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以署長你們今年打造的預算被刪減多少我們就最大比的就是那個網路的一個市造的部分大概刪了四千萬有被刪嘛有被刪對嘛我剛剛有提啊我剛剛有講啊就有被刪啊有被刪啊這個有被刪那另外被刪我覺得你看像我剛剛講的那個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9591.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9602.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我相信很多人也不一定有遇到如果不是我們當立法委員人家來陳情很多人還不知道對不對 那署長你現在知道了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9603.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9626.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
很多銀行 很多銀行根本不理你們嘛很多銀行不理你們警察嘛對不對 反正他就照他做的嘛那我們台灣的打詐 政府一直講要打詐 結果這麼大一個漏洞我真的覺得應該趕快補起來啊 不然各做各的銀行他已經講得很清楚啦 他必須要照那個國際的遊戲規則啊對不對 那這個我們真的要補起來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9630.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9651.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我的看法就是受理報案被照給三年單還沒轉出去銀行就要把他擋起來本來就是啊本來就是啊這個是民眾的情感對就是這個我們法律的規範你今天被騙了你去報案了而且報案第一時間到銀行去了就是要把他擋起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9652.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9663.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就是這麼簡單所以署長就是這麼簡單你的看法跟我一樣我們要把這個洞給補起來可能要拜託部長或什麼跨部會的協調把這個補起來不然銀行反正 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9667.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9689.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
你的錢是你的錢啊我只要符合規矩啊不然到時候金管會又查銀行啊然後又怎樣啊我覺得齁這樣子啊齁真的實在是一個這麼大的洞在這裡你每天在那邊你的數字啊幾億幾億一萬個一萬就一億了這個每天的數字就會在那裡啊所以我覺得這個要處理啊好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9691.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9697.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
謝謝,感謝我們張宏祿召委,在這本席要補充一下,署長你們跟銀行局他們可能要協調,要溝通一下因為你說說他的,他做做他的,到時間我們錢又賺出去,是真的,我們不知道這邊,這樣說報案三年單 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9718.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9730.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這個議員這邊也要注意溝通一下,實際的是經濟學的要了解嘛,但是議員在做的,是照他們的程序這樣做,這樣問題會很大的,以上來,我們再來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9736.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9747.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員不在鄧家徐宇珍委員 啊徐馨宇對不起不好意思謝謝主席 本席先請法務部次長鄧法務部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9765.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9783.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家現在首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺那現在民眾最大的痛苦本席也在院會也多次質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9785.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9813.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
被诈骗就是很痛苦了但是没关系怎么样可以减轻他的痛苦就是他被诈骗的钱能够想办法返还回来对不对所以我们这边有一个我们今天谈一个诈欺犯罪危害条例第47条这个诈欺犯罪他如果有 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9814.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9820.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9821.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9847.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9850.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9875.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那這樣的見解就變成如果這個我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9877.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9905.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益啊這我們這個剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9906.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9933.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9936.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9961.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9962.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9975.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定它對於犯罪所得它採用的是被告的一個報酬說 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9976.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9999.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們無以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面供訴片面供訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10001.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10009.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10011.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10029.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10030.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10057.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議說我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他的報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10058.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10076.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10076.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10091.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎那可是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10098.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10124.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10125.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10142.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10143.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10147.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10156.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10175.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10176.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10186.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10189.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10212.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的這個我們的設計裡面如果可以免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10216.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10240.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10242.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10261.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
減輕或者是免除畸形好 OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務部還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10263.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10289.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10292.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10321.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10324.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10331.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10336.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10361.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10365.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10389.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10389.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10406.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是 他說要分級分級誰的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10409.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10435.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
好那我這樣子啦除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一戰式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不服的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟已經獲不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10437.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10458.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係不是說檢察官沒關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10460.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10483.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
詐欺行為 所以不起訴處分可是他還是把賬戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡 是列為警示賬戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10484.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10504.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10506.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10534.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10536.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10553.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10562.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10586.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10587.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10602.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道但是可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10605.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10620.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議主席你猜試一下嘛好不好我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式可以給的資料給議會委員好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10623.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10641.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢核心村核心村核心村委员不在我们请洪孟凯委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10660.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10665.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
主席謝謝,麻煩請我們劉世芳部長跟警政署署長好,部長跟署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10670.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10697.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
部長好部長看到我們今天在針對詐騙犯罪的部分大家都希望能夠加嚴加緊讓詐騙從台灣越來越少那我看到現在我們這邊有比較說是打詐的一個成效先講我們的這個一個報告說比去年8月平均下降但是5月比4月成長了多少部長知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10702.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10721.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
五月比四月大概多件數是差不多但是大概是多十億左右百分之十四啊從七十六億變八十七億啊對啊所以真的部長大家都希望詐騙面對今天八十七億不是八十七萬不是八十七塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10723.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10738.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
還是很高啊每一個案件裡面一萬多筆的案件裡面背後就是一萬多個破碎的家庭啊我想部長跟署長應該能認同這句話吧好來 那再請教因為本席之前一直講是說第一線的員警非常辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10739.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10762.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
每一個員警我認識的 不管是分局長喔我們地方分局長 還是我們的派出所所長把握每一個機會參會 都會上台去宣導165反詐騙 都會去宣導我們要怎麼樣試詐防詐但是源頭沒有管理 源頭沒有控管那就永遠會有人被騙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10763.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10774.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那其中今天的簡報裡面有講到光一到五月下架違法假投資廣告六萬多則Meta 社詐訊息九萬多則 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10775.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10797.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那之前我也問過速發部速發部那時候講是說警政組織沒有通報所以說很難開罰後來才講是說有啦是當天詢問的時候當天通報所以當天會診之後開罰我們國人被騙了87億5月光5月就被騙了87億到目前為止速發部開罰Meta100萬那後續我想請教一下不管是Meta不管是Line |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10805.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10829.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們的報告裡面都寫了他有九萬多則詐騙的訊息有八千多則詐騙的訊息那源頭管理是不是應該要請企業主負起相關的責任他不能刊登廣告啊怎麼會一而再再放任說他廣告錢他賺然後他刊登了廣告讓國人受害受騙了我們的警察員警還要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10830.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10840.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
海巡還要去視察把他通報了然後才要要求他下架那變成是我們的警察同盟變成是那些社群企業的下線啊部長署長你們怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10849.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10865.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
委員 這個論述確實有它的基礎在我覺得我在各種場合都強調做源頭的管理源頭那邊組織 組掉了就可以組掉所有被詐騙的訊息這個是一直我們努力的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10865.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10891.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那我們現在也是跟主的這個樹花部在做通力合作未來在這個炸王條例裡面是不是在對於網路廣告平台這些業者規範更嚴謹而且他們企業主也有他們自己本身的責任我們希望在這方面更加的這個完整那我們也朝這個方向來做一個努力好 部長部長李聖溫的學姐啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10892.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10907.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
部長今天你可能在這邊覺得無奈只想說這是速發部的問題啊你放心速發部的問題我沒有少問過他但是今天是內政部警政署所有警察同仁在第一線那麼辛苦我為警察同仁抱不捨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10908.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10931.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我說警察同仁要利用每個參會時間去上台去講165反詐騙然後結果我們放任詐騙廣告持續的出來其實說穿了詐騙廣告能夠減少的話我們詐騙的案件數以及詐騙的金額我相信至少一半以上因為他沒有管道去接觸到民眾了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10932.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10958.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那今天既然速發部他到目前為止只開發100萬喔我也強調我是對勢不對人我今天不是要針對哪一個企業公司要去開發而是90%以上的詐騙廣告都集中在同一家公司的時候怎麼會那個公司只有賺廣告的費用但是他沒有內部集合的把關機制讓詐騙廣告持續的出來我覺得這才是源頭啊所以也才需要部長跟部長這邊互相溝通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10960.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10974.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
不然內政部一定會覺得很納悶就說我又沒有裁罰的權利裁罰的權利在速發部啊那可是我們內政部警政署移送了那麼多案件給速發部就速發部到目前為止只處理兩案 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10975.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10999.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
署長能不能告訴我我們現在內政部警政署移送了多少案件給肅發部我們兩個第一次是15件第二次是23件23件15件那不管23件或15件這都是明證確鑿他通報了他也沒有下架所以你們才移送嘛是不是這個部分肅發部正在處理當中是但是肅發部現在跟我們的答案是說他會找相關人員開會我也不知道說要開什麼會 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11002.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11031.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
都已經 民政確鑿你們已經組了九萬多則九萬多則裡面有十五件跟二十三件是真的屢勸不聽或是說他沒有二十四小時下架你們才移送那移送之後速發部說還要再開會再討論講不客氣的一天裡面就可以有多少人被詐騙了結果我們現在光移送一個十五件跟移送一個二十三件拖一個多月了沒有下文這一些說不定他早就已經賺飽飽早就已經換廣告了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11033.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11054.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
部長不要只有點頭啦是不是署長這個部分應該我們會同書報部共同來做一個處理那我想其實我們造文條例裡面對於這一些的業者他們自己本身也要這一些他們的集合跟管理的機制只是在60度這個部分而已60度的部分的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11058.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11076.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
打詐五法打詐四法每一次都講說我們給予相關的法源依據要求業者但是業者有沒有落實這就是我們公部門應該要去執行跟努力的地方來再者另外一個部分一個多月左右有一個台中的女大生說被騙到東南亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11078.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11104.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那雖然到最後這個外公說繳付贖金然後還是沒辦法然後後來見報之後里長、民間人士來協助讓這個兩個女大生回來了嘛但是本席目前也接獲到好幾起的一個陳情都是有相關東南亞的這種不管是被騙去、被旅遊等等相關我也要確認一下是不是現在有死灰復燃的跡象 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11105.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11120.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我想這個應該是就是個案應該這個不多啦但是我們掌握的這個狀況有一些自己本身如果要到那邊去大概有一些都是他知情的狀況像類似這種不知情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11123.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11150.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
不多沒有那種情形有一些就是可能就是知情過去那邊在執行過程當中沒有達到這些詐欺集團的這個目標所造成這個情形那我們在於這個區塊對於外交部跟我們警政署移民署大概都有在做通力合作在做這樣的一個相關的協助跟研究兩三年前那時候疫情期間這種東南亞 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11152.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11167.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
把我們變成人球那是寧願致死的對 那寧願致死所以現在這個狀況沒有這種情況是 本席現在提醒如果說他本來就已經他自己就知道說他要去犯罪了那當然我們該怎麼判就怎麼判我們也不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11168.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11185.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
同情或是保護但是另外一個部分是針對一個月前左右這個新聞是說呂大生被騙去然後兩三個月然後到最後還要外公去繳付贖金這個新聞署長有看到吧有看到對那現在暑假將近 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11186.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11208.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
本期也要再一次的提醒就是說針對七八月暑假將近來那警政署這邊在第一線包括說內政部所管轄移民署相關單位出入境管理局是不是針對新手辦護照第一次要出國的時候就前往不是國人一般常習慣的去日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11209.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11224.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
韓國等地方而是第一次手辦護照馬上就飛東南亞的一些國家特定的高風險的國家的時候多給予關心跟警示多詢問一下也許這樣子是可以來防範於未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11225.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11252.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
部長報告委員我們現在已經都有做這樣的跨部會的包括外交部對於辦護照或者是在我們航警局那個地方我們航警局就是在不管是在航空的一個櫃台要登機的櫃台或者是要在這個相關的這個移民署的這個通關的地方我們除了這個宣導之外在那個地方做攔阻到的要到東安利亞可能會遭受詐騙我們這個部分的這個攔阻的這個狀況也 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11255.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11271.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
非常的好大概一位到我有攔阻十幾件十幾件的這個情形都是我們主動機攔阻到的那這個除了在我們國內的這些相關宣導之外那國外的部分也都有做這樣的一個尤其是求職的一個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11272.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11289.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好 本席還是再提醒因為最主要是暑期快到了我們不希望說我們的青年朋友誤信導致於說有任何被炸的狀況 好不好那相關的剛剛講說攔阻的一個計畫成效是不是也給本席辦公室一份書面資料好 沒問題好 謝謝好 我們接下來請張綺卡委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11317.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11344.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
請保定叫警政署署長好 請部長跟署長先請保定來 保定保定 保定署長先休息一下 先請教保定保定 現在大家很關心這個租金貼啊應該圓滿解決了嘛不會再發不出去了 如果再不發再延宕就真的像今天的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11346.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11352.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
詐欺的犯罪了喔有問題嗎?目前還有什麼沒有解凍的問題嗎?應該沒有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11353.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11381.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
租金補貼我並不清楚張委員所指的是什麼事情有關租金補貼的部分在今年總統公佈了那個今年的那個預算之後那我們就按照預算的額度來發放那現在發放的過程呢都是由地方政府來負責審查那我們只有抽查所以目前為止有關那個房屋租屋族的這個補貼到今年為止的話是沒有問題的博電你看看你在三月三十吧你說被凍結了兩百億嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11384.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11406.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
我問你我說那個案子在哪裡沒有人找到這個案子你後來找到這個動200億這個案子嗎報告委員在行政院所提的這個整體送到立法院的這個預算裡面我要跟委員報告就是有關租屋族的津貼就是包括我們包租貸款跟社會住宅那當時在住宅基金裡面呢如果以今年度來講的話我們的額度是414億 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11410.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11426.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那但是呢我們的缺額因為基金的預算的撥補是由行政院來撥補給部會那因為行政院所有的錢包括未來的有所謂的636億要自行調組那行政院就認為說200億的撥補是有問題的所以我所指的部分是指這200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11427.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11453.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
你把這個提案給我啦報告委員這個不是提案就是我跟您提到的我們這個部分是內部在公文轉成的時候就是在住宅基金裡面是200億的撥補是由行政院撥補的因為我多次都在這個地方講的完全都沒有改變過我們也不認為我們是造謠請委員多多查處那事實上在立法院審的過程裡面就是租金的補貼一毛錢都沒有刪嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11454.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11480.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
事實上也沒有凍結這筆預算那你一直在講說是有凍結一部分我後來去查是國土計劃法延宕的叫你來報告就解凍了報告委員你所講的部分應該就是民眾黨所提的國土計劃那因為民眾黨對於國土計劃法的這個審議過程當中大概有不盡滿意的地方所以你們希望用這樣子的方式來懲處國土署但是呢國土署他們現在所處的這個所謂的幾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11484.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11509.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
補貼的部分呢確實是像我所說的我們的住宅基金總共需要匡列414億裡面的200億是由行政院撥補那因為行政院的預算是被凍結的所以我的意思這個凍結是這樣子來的意思那這個呢在我們的卓院長對外說明的時候也有多次說明那個200億是其中的這個很多預算裡面之一所以保定 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11510.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11523.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
立法院沒有砍他一毛錢對不對那所有你說我們台灣民眾黨這個提案報告委員我想您要查處清楚好嗎對對對立法院沒有砍他一毛錢我尊重委員的說法但是事實上我們確實是有被刪掉預算也有被凍結預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11525.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11551.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
在租金補貼這一塊一毛錢都沒有砍啊我跟委員報告 我已經跟委員報告過我們租金補貼不足的部分在住宅基金裡面的撥補200億是由行政院要撥補的基金預算的申請跟審核跟過程就是由我們的部會跟行政院來申請對嘛 所以阿婆你講的就是636嘛636你不要讓中央行政院砍掉一毛錢你不是砍了地方的一般補助款嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11552.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11573.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
各個縣市政府不是掉錢嗎 報告蔣委員你每天都說買啊買啊買啊 到底進行咧在今年的倪催跟今年的倪退 我們開始在公行政院送到立法院預算的時候當時是刪多少動多少 後來是解動多少但是仍然我們有刪除的很多預算還沒有被追加回來 現在不就是這樣的樣態嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11574.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11586.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以委員都講說你們的提案你們的提案但是我所說的我在所有的會議裡面我並沒有說民眾黨提案這個部分我只是說住宅基金預算裡面按照這樣的程序我們就是被凍結200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11589.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11592.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
報告委員我在地方政府跟中央政府都待過我知道公務預算跟基金預算是指什麼一回事我講的部分並沒有違反可能是委員在聽的過程當中被斷章取義了一般的民眾不會認為說立法院沒有砍的這個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11606.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11617.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
一般的民眾不會認為立法院完全沒有砍到行政院的預算是要去砍我們的要砍到我們的輸進補貼沒關係這個讓社會去公平啦給我個書面啦來現在比較重要的保證我今天講的是保證問題解決了嘛對不對你說的凍結預算什麼現在預算解凍了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11628.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11643.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
問題都解決了沒有現在租金的補貼還有任何問題嗎報告委員我要跟委員報告基金預算不是用年度來做分野的那現在基金預算到今年度之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11643.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11668.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我們仍然是可以發放明年之後會不會碰到什麼狀況第一個現在我們的這個今年的總預算的部分或者是財政收支劃分法到底有沒有違憲等等這些我們都尊重行政院的主計總署做這個分配那但是呢現在憲法法庭還沒有就預算的部分或者是財化法的部分做最後的採取之前呢幾乎都是未定你說你剛才說年底疫情沒問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11670.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11673.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你對陣情沒問題啊 我可以報警你這沒問題嘛有沒有 部長在年底之前發放還有任何問題嗎沒有嘛齁我跟委員講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11682.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11708.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
基金預算不是年度預算那既然基金預算不是年度預算在我的能力之內也就是說沒有經過釋憲或是沒有經過憲法法庭到今年年底之前我們的基金的預算裡面跟住宅有關的要撥給各地方政府來處理租金補貼的部分的話是沒有問題但是過了今年以後我們要尊重行政院的主計總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11709.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11727.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
再分配包括公務預算或是包括基金預算上面的額度那這個額度是多少的話恐怕就要看立法院跟行政院之間未來有沒有做其他的一個協調或是其他更好的一個修正的工作所以你對進行都沒問題嘛今年都沒問題嘛我現在就跟你討論這個問題你看你的網站上面啦300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案你在貼著呢如果預算沒有如期解凍 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11739.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11744.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
預估租金補貼經費將在114年的11月用慶這個怎麼還在上面呢你剛才說年底以前沒問題啊怎麼還有用慶問題要到11月你出什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11757.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11783.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那這樣好不好 那個 我想我們在網站上面的更新的部我們來修正一下改成12月內政部的行政效率這麼差嗎是出了什麼問題這個跟委員抱歉一下這不是用什麼虛假的那個謠言去恐嚇租屋主吧沒有問題喔不好意思 這國土署的部分 我有跟那個委員講喔真不好意思 就是11月我要改成12月OK 好 所以今年度沒有問題了好 第二趕快去把它撤下來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11785.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11800.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
另外現在再出一個 我來問一下那個 問一下署長最近啊 郭益勤 郭委員啊 馬上好吧 兩分鐘 抱歉那個問一下署長啦 郭益勤 郭委員啊 他對一個路上直播的民眾啊他說行為鬼祟嘛 他說卡電話找這個警政署 對不對叫警察去處理 是 要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11812.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11839.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那我們受理報案之後會了解那個實際的狀況到底那個這個行為人的行為到底是怎麼樣來做依法來做處理是你接到電話嗎我沒有接到電話因為是跟我們的這個這個110的這個一個地方警察的這個報案對啊 郭益勤說警方要去注意啊 後來你們怎麼處理這個案子那我們受理完之後就有依法去做處理怎麼樣處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11841.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11867.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
那我們就是當時應該看行為人的這個的狀況大概在做錄影的這個情形有沒有一些違法的一個樣態來做一個來做處理案件有一些是增長的部分是增長不公開我們是現在目前在增長是增長不公開我們等增長的結果再來做所以你看郭議員郭委員造成警方這邊多大一個多大一個困難還要去查那是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11871.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11885.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
他後來也印證說沒有毫無證據嘛對不對他後來也道歉了嘛那現在問題嚴重在什麼地方今天為什麼要問這個問題還有民眾出現是什麼拍個街景而已喔說被說什麼違反國安規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11887.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11907.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
還被剪掉還要約談我想就這樣因為有一些就是可能有一些牽涉到目前的這個狀況有一些在拍的這個部分可能針對學童針對一些狀況有一些可能有幕後有國安的這些相關問題那我們會逐案來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11908.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11909.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
你有查出任何一個人? |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11932.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11949.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們現在目前有一些案件正在做說證當中因為我們也有受理跟他這一個跟不是屬於自拍也有在做這樣方面的一個狀況我們大概也有接受這樣的一個報案台灣是一個很善良的社會最美的風景就是人 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11950.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11976.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
嚴重到在街上稍微自拍或者拍個街景我們這個部分應該會去辯別啦不是說這個他在自拍在做這個自己的行為就把他當作一個違法人權如果連這個都要抓齁我問一個我們沒有第一時間就要抓啦就是沒有這個意思了一定要查清楚嘛那以後行車紀錄器是不是要禁止行車紀錄器會不會拍到你剛剛講的那幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11977.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11982.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
應該是不太容易行車紀錄器可能拍得更廣喔那是不是也要禁止那個google那個地圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11983.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12010.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
不過那個地圖不是就拍得比這個更完整嗎那個有些是公共上的一個空間啦他明明他去拍得更完整啊這一整你不去處理你要去處理一般的這個民眾就導出像過疫情這樣的事情有一些可能就是有沒有特殊目的可能牽涉到各自可能牽涉到這些相關的目的我們都要透過去做了解只要報案報完之後我們當然警察受理報案不是你的案件就會過程但是要透過了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12012.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12034.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
去了解這個整個案件的真實的狀況是什麼情形我們警政署跟警察要做的事情非常的繁重你光是今天要談這個詐騙這個案子要多少心力你現在花了心思去做這個事情就影響到這邊嗎何況現在打詐都還沒 完全還沒有做好啊我剛講過了 你這樣的話行車紀錄器啦 Google地圖啦甚至以後什麼 立個法以後都不能直播嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12037.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12045.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
最重要的不要一直用意識形態一直在擴別人紅帽子台灣真的是一個善良的社會好不好好謝謝委員好我們請黃珊珊委員好謝謝主席我想請那個法務部次長還有刑事廳吳法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12066.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12073.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
好 請次長跟法官那也請一下部長也請一下部長部長部長還有次長 我想打詐這件事情在形式上應該是內政部主導的業務 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12090.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12113.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
包括造房條例裡面其實牽涉到四個主要的部會但是內政部主管嘛法務部在這個案子去年此時我們修正通過之後發生了一個很嚴重的事情就是司法院的高等法院的判決跟我們的立法一職顯然不一樣高等法院認為犯罪所得是那個車手賺的那幾千塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12115.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12127.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
所以進行了所謂的法庭辯論那刑事大法庭也做出了裁定主要就是針對我們的47條裡面有關犯罪所得的認定部長你自己的你自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12128.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12148.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
在這個法條裡面你的認知應該是怎樣我想黃委員講得非常正確所以我們在這次很尊重那個委員所提到有關47條修正案的部分是所以部長也認為應該把犯罪所得定義清楚不應該讓法官各自為政對吧好次長我在5月7號的時候同樣質詢那時候是部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12151.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12175.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
部長說如果只要法庭做出的決定裁定跟法務部原來立法一直不同法務部會進行相關的修法而且你們還有公文5月21號的公文給我你們已經啟動修法作業今天我看到的是委員的版本我想問一下法務部的版本在哪裡我們6月送到行政院還沒有來什麼時候會來已經送出去了是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12179.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12205.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
行政院會要開會要開會所以還不知道什麼時候會來但是你們已經做了你們的版本跟張委員的版本差不多嗎張委員的版本還是有一點點不一樣有一點點不一樣所以我現在要問的是你們的意見是什麼你們的版本會是什麼我想這牽涉到接下來你們這一次跟司法院溝通過了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12208.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12215.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
上一次我問的是你們的法沒有跟司法院溝通到法庭去有法官自己自由行政這一次有沒有溝通那個行政院會會審會會司法院所以你們自己不先溝通要等到行政院來溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12227.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12248.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我的意見就是很簡單啦一件事情要出來之前就應該溝通好了到立法院之後不應該發生刑事廳坐在現場法務部坐在現場我們通過的法條兩個單位不合作最後到法庭去讓法官自由行政今天的問題在這裡啊所以你們現在還是沒溝通我很難過我上次問的就是為什麼不溝通不可以先開會再寫法條嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12256.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12274.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
行事廳有沒有表示過意見對 因為行政院本來就會邀請司法院 我們會在行政院溝通這就是為什麼一個法條到法院 到立法院了法院通過了 立法理由寫完了 到法庭去法官還可以用自己的稀有心證 就是因為這樣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12275.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12294.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我們通過的法條法官不理解法官自己決定自己要怎麼解釋然後去搞了一個最高法高等法院的大法庭然後來裁定這不是很可笑嗎今天就不應該再發生同樣的錯誤我再講一遍46條47條是一樣的一個是自首一個是自白你只修47是不行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12299.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12323.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我們的草案46在裡面因為委員看到的現在目前是47的版本所以我希望你們應該是完整的去調整第二個如果可能的話現在就應該啟動所謂的溝通機制吧等到行政院再去跟司法院溝通又要拖多久時間如果你們可以在草案擬出來的同時就已經請教過他們的意見就不會發生這些事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12324.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12347.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
不是嗎 部長 這個國家不應該發生這種事不是嗎當然有溝通 因為有時候是因為時間的問題就是說要到草案出來 這段時間有多少時間那你們的意見是 像這個就是說以所謂的全額填補被害人所受損害 或者是跟被害人達成和解才可以減薪期刑嘛 對嗎對 不是賠償全部 而是 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12351.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12376.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
而是呢在延遲辯論終結以前呢有支付跟被害人達成調節或和解是全部金額就是他同意原諒你給你多少機會那個錢你付掉了你就有機會減輕其刑得減輕其刑所以付掉了還不一定減輕其刑就對了所以重點是這件事情是你們自己想的還是司法院同意的我們有找學者開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12379.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12408.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
學者所以司法院從來不用表示意見就是你們自己決定就算了我們因為剛才我跟委員報告過就是因為你們的機制是這樣但是我覺得這個事情很簡單最後法庭是才是最後的裁決者如果他們在事先不能表示意見的話就會發生每個法庭的法官講的都不一樣然後最後再來統一法律見解浪費人民的時間浪費立法院的時間我們還要重新立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12410.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12429.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
立法一直寫得那麼明確他還可以做出不同的解釋這才是今天中華民國最大的問題好嗎 部長 部長跟次長我希望你們跟司法院在打詐這件事情上面應該是一個team而不是這樣子分工分到最後讓司法院自己做主 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12430.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12454.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
可以做到嗎 多久之內可以做好這件事呢我想應該會盡快盡快 對然後行政院什麼時候會送來 不知道這個會 請問會不會這個很急啊 現在案子都在法院審啊一大堆被告都在那邊等啊這個是很急迫的 是所以解釋以後所有的人付三千塊五千塊就沒事了是 這個是很急迫的他會不會再犯 會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12456.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12476.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
你什麼時候要做嘛法條來了你們也要送過來我想召委在這邊他一定會趕快排的還是說我們要自己幫你先通過我們會進來處理我希望現在是六月底七月底前至少要到立法院來大家趕快討論趕快過一過然後現在法院的案子可以趕快結掉我們結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12478.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12501.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
好不好 一個月之內 我希望在七月底以前可以送到這邊來拜託你去催促行政院快一點 拜託你們趕快跟司法院統一見解因為我們會 行政會會召開會議市長 我知道 都知道 麻煩你們快一點一年了 現在才要討論 不是很可笑嗎 你們一年前為什麼不討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12502.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12512.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
還要再去問人家意見 可不可笑同樣的錯誤 再發生第二次我覺得你們政務人員就要負責下台啊再發生同樣的錯誤就不應該了啊 好嗎一個月之內 拜託了好 徐富奎 徐富奎 徐富奎委員不在林儲英 林儲英 林儲英委員不在王定宇 王定宇 王定宇委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在好 請吳清明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12536.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12539.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
好 召委 議會同仁 請部長好了委員你好 部長好部長 今天大家都在討論這個大廈尤其是詐騙集團 現在是為重倡判但是我們在上一次 我還記得我們警政署所公布的資料說 已經有直接下降 但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12561.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12575.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
一般的民眾他們的反應還是打仗還是非常的嚴重我說在我們新北市在我的選區連我的異鄉的幹部 印尼兒 也是印尼 叫做詐騙集團 騙錢幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12578.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12600.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
甚至婚姻包含離婚、撩毆、也造成他的侏儒就要去自殺所以說這詐騙,這是非常猖狂、非常惡質這個部分,我們一定要趕緊來克制但是現在,都是來自於網路還有LINE的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12601.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12628.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以都是由於找他們去投資甚至都有很多他們詐騙的手法這部分我們要怎麼要求我們的不管是法務部任何情治單位還有金融單位還有我們世衛部全部已經我們那個三獨通過了打詐的三法 打詐已經通過了為什麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12630.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12644.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
成效還是要向民眾來公佈我們過去一天的詐騙金額包含現在一天最高還來到五億這是很恐怖啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12645.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12664.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
報告委員 我想大家都有同理心尤其我們在處理打炸的時候呢我就多次表達就是也非常謝謝立法院在去年的時候通過讓我們有這個法律的工具來處理有關打炸的部分但是從去年到今年一般來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12666.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12680.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
現在高居首位的還是在假投資詐騙比較多其他有關於網路或者是交友等等的雖然是有報案數但是那個金額其實沒有像那麼多但是投資詐騙的金額仍然非常高 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12681.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12693.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
再加上現在科技非常的進步這個炸團的科技也非常的進步所以我們現在要隨著科技進步的部分在我們的警政單位裡面要加強有關於訓練也就是說我們科技偵查的能力要越來越加強再加上說現在我們立法院的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12702.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12719.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
剛好在已經接近年終的時候通過的時候我們在設備面包括我們網路的流量紀錄器才開始要啟動所謂的投資的部分會跟法務部一起來聯絡也就是說我們都是每一步都是需要有人力物力 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12720.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12733.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
還有財力一起與時漸進才有可能做到但是現在詐團他們也非常的精明我也多次提到說這個詐團不是我們所看到的就是好像是路邊攤或是菜市場都在騙人一樣他們在網路頂管他們結合了網路高手結合了法律的專才 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12739.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12746.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
結合了包括說會非常熟悉地政資料非常熟悉金融管理資料這些人每一次他們都可以用他的話術來詐騙這麼多的金額所以我們現在也必須要結合每個部會然後把重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12754.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12777.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這個缺點的部分趕快抓出來像我也非常謝謝今天提案的委員啊針對三條不同的法條都是歷歷在目我們在這個警政署在處理詐騙的這個案件當中都需要做這方面的修正雖然還是有必要有一些其他的法條還需要跟著精進我們會跟法務部來配合那但是呢我們還是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12779.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12783.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
要請很多委員能夠協助我們多告訴這些假投資詐騙的犯罪被害人因為我們都太親信譬如說親友的詐騙或者是說名人的詐騙等等這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12795.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12799.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
大家都想說很簡單、很好賺錢錢就先出去這麼說出去之後就差不多沒辦法回來包括這個王委員你說的那些我們技校的朋友也回到這種情形所以我們在後面在追查的過程當中確實會有這方面的一個速度上面沒有那麼快但是我們現在就是要從源頭開始譬如說我們從這個去年開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12821.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12848.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
從這個詐騙集團它是黑幫犯案的部分我們的刑事局或是我們警政署也破了很多團但是它還是會再繼續的增生那繼續增生的部分我們最大的困擾是來自於它境外譬如說它的境外裡面會有那個詐騙的電話號或是說它那裡很多機具都在境外我們很難理解但是我們已經盡我們的力量來處理這裡也希望說有受到這個危害的這些人可以跟警政署一起合作不要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12850.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12856.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
譬如說我聽到的案例有人碰到假投資詐騙他經過十年以後才去報案這已經被騙多少錢了再來因為我們現在包括基層的警力都一直在投入165的反詐騙裡面事實上它有發生有效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12868.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12884.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
但是很多人覺得在我旁邊的人跟我說叫我去投資可能才是可以信到啦這就是最大的困難也就是說詐騙集團用詐術跟用這種情感上面或是我們對於善良人的一個欺騙的方式這是我們最難處理的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12885.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12904.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
因為部長,現在吃投資的案例非常多,尤其在台灣存在尤其在都會區裡面非常多,包含公務人員的售金也很高,結果也是被炸所以說在這個部分,我請法務部次長有來嗎?有有有,徐次長來,次長好,次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12910.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12920.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為詐騙的,在我們台灣,春片,剖片已經非常廣泛,大家都無法接受,在這種情況下,拜託處長,因為很多境外的詐騙集團,回來台灣,水蒙蒙的就搞不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12926.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12934.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
在這種情形上去對話,大家都非常不安逸但是為了人權,但是我們在台灣,這種詐騙絕對我們一定要嚴格審查不能輕易的讓他交保所以才有辦法好處在詐騙集團,不然詐騙真的在社會上造成很大的恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12949.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12965.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
尤其很多人都是一生的機器都被他們詐騙了所以說這都是可以說遇到這種情形 他們都是非常無奈所以說拜託法務部一定要嚴格原辦好不好好 一定好 謝謝好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12982.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13007.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
來 登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員高金 宿美 丁學忠 林楚英 楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會那我們現在先休息五分鐘 再進行法案審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13034.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13034.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13068.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13069.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
哦,好,對,就剛剛提過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13391.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13405.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們中午不休息繼續開會我補充宣告剛剛徐富奎委員所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報我們現在進行法案審查請圈讀討論事項所有條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13410.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13436.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
修正動議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商第43條委員廖先祥等18人提案後段修正為因犯罪獲取之財物或產產上利益達新台幣1億元者處7年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金其餘同線性條文第47條委員張宏祿等30人提案前段修正為犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13436.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13455.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
并全额填补被害人所受损害者或与被害人达成和解者得减轻其刑其余同现行条文委员林一景等二十七人提案前段修正为犯诈期犯罪在侦查及历次审判中均自白如有犯罪所得自其犯罪所得向被害人支付相当数额之财产 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13455.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13475.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
或非財產上犯罪所受損失者得減輕其刑扣斷同線型條文並列為第一項增訂第二項前項向被害人支付之犯罪所受損失數額由法院著定之委員王逸川等16人提案修正為詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有詐欺所獲取之財物 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13475.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13504.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
或财产上利益自动缴交其诈欺所获取之财物或财产上利益者减轻其刑并因而使司法警察机关或检察官得以扣押全部诈欺所获取之财物或查或发其主持操纵或指挥诈欺犯罪组织制人者减轻或免除其刑委员陈素月等18人提案前段修正为犯诈欺犯罪在侦查及历次审判中均自白并自动缴交其自被害人处取得之财物以填补 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13504.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13532.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
被害人所受财产损失者得减轻其刑其余同线性条文第54条委员王定宇等18人提案第一项至第三项同线性条文增订第四项至第九项第一项应付损害赔偿责任之义务人于未完全清偿被害人前其花费不得逾越一般人通常之程度法院得依职权或利害关系人之申请对其核发下列个款之禁止命令并通知应与配合之第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13532.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13551.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
一禁止购买租赁或使用一定金额以上之商品或服务二禁止搭乘特定之交通工具三禁止为特定之投资四禁止进入特定之高消费场所消费五禁止赠予或借贷他人一定金额以上之财物六禁止每月生活费用超过一定金额七其他必要之禁止命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13552.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13570.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
前项锁定一定金额由法务部定之民事执行处依第一项规定合法禁止命令前应以书面通知义务人到场陈述意见义务人经合法通知无正当理由而不到场者民事执行处关于本条之调查及审核程序不受影响民事执行处于审着义务人之生活有无逾越一般人 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13571.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13589.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
通常程度而核發第四項禁止命令時應考量其致歉原因致歉金額清償狀況移送機關之意見利害關係人申請事由及其他情勢為適當之決定民事執行處於執行程序中期時應解除第四項禁止命令並通知應配合第三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13589.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13590.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
修正動議一 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13616.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13636.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
第47条前段修正为犯诈欺犯罪在侦查及历次审判中均自白于法院严实辩论终结前并全额填补被害人因诈欺所受财产损害者或与被害人达成和解经法院审着后认为适当者得减轻其刑其余同线性条文提案人委员黄杰等5人 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13638.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13667.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
修正动议二第四十七条犯诈欺犯罪在侦查及审判中全程均自白如有犯罪所得自动缴交其犯罪所得者得减轻其刑并因而使司法警察机关或检察官得以扣押全部犯罪所得或查或发起主持操纵或指挥诈欺犯罪组织之人者或与法院言辞辩论终结前支付与被害人达成调解或和解之全部进而者减轻或免除其刑提案人委员苏巧慧等五人 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13668.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13683.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
修正动议三第四十七条前段修正为犯诈欺犯罪在侦查及历次审判中均自白且与被害人达成和解并填补被害人所受损害者得减轻其刑其余同现行条文提案人为王美惠等五人 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13684.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13710.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
修正動議四第四十七條犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白並與被害人於第一審言辭辯論終結前達成調解或和解並賠償被害人全部和調解金額者減輕其刑並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官對扣押該組織所取得全部被害人所交付之財物或財產上利益或查或發起主持操縱或 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13711.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13711.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
好 我們現在寫上 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13802.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13825.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
我們先說47條有很多的修正動議那我覺得先整合一個版本啦我看這個內政部跟法務部你們的看法對對對我覺得沒有辦法先整合一個版本是請法務部直接先表示意見因為其實大家意思都差不多只是文字用法不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13828.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13841.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
稍微各位委員我想這樣因為我們大概首先就是要先避開犯罪所得類似像犯罪獲得從被害人獲得利益什麼這種獲得的 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13842.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13865.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
就是會又掉入原來會不會又被解釋成說是以報仇說一千塊兩千塊所以我們是比較用另外一個角度就是是不是在設計上把這個權要不要原諒他這個權加重在被害人的身上我們是希望說47條這個減輕期刑呢就是你去跟被害者覆蓋 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13867.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13885.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
因為每一個車手或者每一個行為人他所造成被害人的損害不是都一樣的有的後面的大金主跟那個小車手是不一樣每個人所造成的危害不一樣就你的危害的部分你若被害這麼多你管兩年這樣我們就把錢清清清是不是這樣這個角度比較不會走 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13887.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13899.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
阿如果說他必須承擔所有的集團的犯罪所得全部都要你賠捏到的人比較少你就要付一千萬的這樣大家搞不好就都沒得自白他也沒得賠償啦他沒得付錢嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13901.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13913.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
所以我們就是把這個設計上是不是改成說在延遲變成終結以前如果有支付還要付喔有的人他有些委員的版本裡面寫說達成和解這個會有風險因為目前實務上發現說他才和諧的選項碰到輕的了我就不可以付了 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13919.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13938.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
啊這個又造成另外一個民怨,他就覺得,啊你這個假騙騙說你比較胖比較輕的,結果我一個人同意說簽好改書簽了,你胖比較輕的,啊就再見啦,人就沒了所以我們還要這個條件要支付,應該是要支付他跟被愛人達成調解或和解的全部金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13939.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13965.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那我們希望說這個部分也不要堅持就是說一定要給他減我們叫得減清洗一行我們把這個權利呢就留給法官來做裁量啦我們是希望是不是用這種角度來看不要從那個支付所有的金額那個又被調到原來解釋的那個空間我們又造成一些困擾那現在有一個問題就是有時候調節被害人他可能覺得說他明明就給他騙一百十萬塊我今天要賠一百才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13969.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13997.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這個對那個車手來講他覺得太嚴格我們是不是說有一個如果他他雖然調節不起來可是我們有證據證明他的確他一個人騙十萬而已我們設計就是說你可以去法院提存提存之後就是這個比喻才隨時可以自己拿出來我只要提存了這個金額讓被害人隨時可以領的話法官也可以得減輕期限我們是想設計最後的如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14002.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14026.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
四十七條第一項裡面後段後段來啦我美會委員你要再緩衛最主要我在想的就是說立法院選的選票最重要的是車手嘛車手就像你們說的說他根本他一直沒編制不一定到後手他到五千到五萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14029.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14041.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
但是他跟別人和解的時候,不是說他也要祈求對方有和解和感激感激的時候就是說,對方如果要挽留他,譬如說他真的沒有騙那件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14048.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14058.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
但是你剛才說的提倡就是說,有的人真的聽到邪氣,詐騙集團很生氣,要給他九分,所以你騙我五萬塊,你就一定要付我五十萬,我還要幫你付錢,也有這種情形,因為我都覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14067.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14073.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們這個詐騙集團長久以來越來越多像現在我這陣子的行動方法越來越多以前騙說你去買郵票就可以多多少現在沒有,現在在家裡有辦法方便幾百萬起所以這個我認為是不是要研議給的好事也要給車手的人留意我不能做 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14097.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14103.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們想到未來說,這樣車丘就有最主要,如果抓到,再申請,再給他拿,做也很輕鬆的,不能有這個想法出來啦,不然這樣會很嚴重的,真的,因為車丘現在都年輕人啊,以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14124.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14139.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
好 謝謝主席今天也有提一個修正動議第四案其實有把法務部剛剛講的東西放進來第一審言時辯論終結前達成調解或和解並賠償被害人全部的和調解金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14140.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14165.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
檢期期行我這邊寫的是必檢那如果要得檢我也沒有什麼意見但是既然他已經賠了那是不是讓他可檢而不是變成還好像還檢不到那第二個其實還是下面我覺得也蠻重要需要修正的是說他們扣就是他因為他的自白所以抓到了上面那扣押組織的相關的東西又會有一樣就到底他們交了 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14166.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14186.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
一樣有也會有定義上的問題所以我們這邊也修正說該組織所取得全部被害人所交付的財物或財產上利益因為他們的確也會有一些成本啊有一些什麼的話這個的確會什麼叫犯罪所得所以還是要一併把它修正因為就我剛剛執行的時候講46條其實也需要修正所以可能不是只有47條的問題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14193.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14213.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
好謝謝那我的意見也是差不多就是其實前面要加上這個法院言辭辯論終結之前這個會比較明確然後這個財產的部分我也有寫的比較明確因為怕的是說這個損害的具體的範圍到底是本金還是說利息還是什麼精神抚慰金還是其他間接的損失我認為把這個財產損害寫進去會比較明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14217.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14244.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那至於說這個到底是減輕其刑還是得減輕其刑我也是照這個原本紅綠園的版本就是加上去所以是有把這個得放進去那大概是這樣其實我覺得大家的意見是差不多啦那是不是我是建議說要不要大家一起把類似的文字把它你們建議一個比較完整的那把它我們併攏成一個版本這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14247.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14265.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
好我在這邊的話當然我自己也有提出修正動議但修正動議之前已經講過了那我想討論一下其他委員的版本我只是一個請教而已就是說如果是並全額填補被害人所受損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14266.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14285.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
才能夠減輕其刑的話那也許這個案子裡面有很多犯罪者有很多共犯所以每個人都要全額補償那這個被害人不是就超額賠償了嗎就是賠太多了這好像也不是我們的本意所以怎麼樣放進去全額賠償這四個字要怎麼個方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14289.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14307.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這我覺得可能也要注意一下那所以我我贊同剛剛黃姐委員說的啦就是我們應該不是用任何一個版來討論是法務部直接提出一個版我們來說我們一起來就這比較快吧大家手上應該都拿到了大家看一下這法務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14314.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14319.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那法務部現在這個司法院有沒有看到司法院要不要發表一下意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14329.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14343.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
來 我們各位同仁 針對47條 剛才我們各位所提出的版本不同 但是我還是比較比像我們法務部處長所講的 這樣比較可以顧得到他鼻子的位置 還有他的車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14350.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14366.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
補償的部分才不會牽扯太廣這樣他們自白的機會會比較容易出來自白我認為大家是不是可以說針對法務部所提出的建言我們比較可行啦謝謝來這法務部的版本啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14377.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14379.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我他還在看他還在看他還在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14401.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14413.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以你這裡還是全部金額啊就是承諾被害人的那個和解跟調解金被害人他同意了這個金額全部支付了才符合典型的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14414.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14436.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
於顏值別人中心支付支付與被害人達成調解或和解的全部金額所以並不是損害賠償的金額不是犯罪金額 通通都不是就是那個調解或和解的全部金額你被害人同意多少錢跟他和解那個金額全部配合就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14440.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14449.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那有可能有可能多有可能少有可能多有可能少不用這樣講啦,不用他去做這個車給五十萬,要賺五千要叫合債,應該是要用五十萬來去做合債 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14453.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14481.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
沒有,以前不是這樣被害人如果同意說10萬塊就好了這樣10萬塊附了,不是50萬對,我意思就是他在這個...他就是無法跟我們說對,開始說,直接跟我們說不可以超過,你說就要超過多少不不不,他這裡也沒有限制他這裡現在的條文也沒有限制他應該分兩個啦一個調解成或和解的這一個另外一個未能與被害人達成調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14482.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14501.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
但犯罪所交全部財產一共騙五十萬你就要給五十萬去提存嗎所以是分兩塊嗎兩塊啦因為以車手來講他說我就給你提十萬你叫我給你五十萬就調節不成意那我就現有的十萬塊我就把它提存完了那我就可以斟酌你 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14502.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14530.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
這樣子車手的負擔不會就有人不當得力了沒有啊 你未能與被害人調教但已將被害人應駕駛的全部財務或財產上利益提存者也可以減輕其刑所以以剛剛50萬的犯罪所得的詐騙金額有一個案子被騙了50萬現在車手被抓到 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14530.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14557.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那他現在呢車手跟被害人之間調解或和解他要從五千、五萬、五十萬、五百萬都稅在你反正你能夠達成調解或和解而且你把這個金額訂好了而且支付了就當然可以得減輕期息只是要錢不管沒有沒有沒有這第一段這是分號錢我現在在講的是分號錢的第一段沒有這個應該是他講的再來等一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14559.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14584.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
但是再來的話未能與被害人達成調教會的但是已將被害人因詐欺犯罪所交付的全部財富和利益的話就是說那如果他把50萬拿出來提存就也可以得減資金因為我不甘願付你500萬 我就給你騙50萬而已你給我騙500萬 那不通啦所以我騙500萬也不通啦這樣啦 我把50萬拿出來放在萬一那啦 提存所啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14588.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14605.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那法官就看到這樣情形可敏啊態度良善啊所以也得檢查只是分兩階啦調解成立跟不成立的方式所以剛剛署長我會跟您說不是什麼50的那個是因為前面的話前面第一段分號之前的是500也可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14606.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14626.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
只要他們要和解就變他對啊 車手同意也可以啊所以沒有50的上限但提存的時候是以50為定額他交付的 就被害人交付的他多一毛也不需要但少一毛也不行對啊 少一毛也不行啊因為你這裡是犯罪所得全部財務啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14629.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14653.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我有一個意見就是我這邊寫的是第一審延遲辯論終結前因為你沒有寫第一審的話就拖到第二審才跟你和解有些人就會把它拖如果可以要早一點或要求他快一點的話其實我們可以在第一審終結前才有減輕窒息的機會你不可以拖到二審市長了解我的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14656.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14675.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
他會早一點賠現在他第一審如果有提出他第一審就減了對啊很好啊對啊那就問題是有些人一審不提出啊他就拖到二審啊對啊那一審不給他減啊我的意思是說二審再合減都不給你減了二審再提的就不給他減了 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14676.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14695.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
我們希望說二審他願意賠我們也給他減他一審沒有減到可是最後想一想我判這麼重我二審還是賠了好了二審減不然你限一審的話你判下去他不賠嘛 判下去第二審他賠也沒有用好這是一個啦第二個就是剛剛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14698.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14723.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
他會說的就是這樣子的話那個提存叫清償提存嘛所以要直接不可以設任何條件因為有些人會設條件要怎樣怎樣才可以提因為提存所不會管你這些喔所以清償就直接寫清償提存不得設條件的清償提存對就是說如果他設了條件的話他就領不到好嗎確定喔那個東西一定會有證明拿來如果法官就會看到他設了什麼東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14728.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14736.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
他說法官會看到要問一下後面的法官你們看到會怎樣會怎麼認定你講了法官都不知道你在講什麼各位委員先進好那首先跟各位報告因為今天才看到法務部版跟修正動議所以並未經本院正式簽合 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14756.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14758.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
以下算是個人意見法院延遲辯論終結前 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14765.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14792.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
在法院延遲辯論終結前這個建議說就是不要限於第一審因為有的時候可能不是說他沒有誠意和解的問題可能一直都是一直在談和解當中可是因故可能就是第一審沒辦法和解然後到第二審才達成這個和解所以似乎是給實務比較多的彈性所以建議說是不是就不要限於第一審的法院延遲辯論終結前就是只要在四十審的這個四十審的一二審的延遲辯論終結前這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14794.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14815.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
也可以那關於得檢經期刑因為賦予法官裁量權所以本院應該沒有意見尊重但是後面關於後半段第一項的後半段這個提存這個部分因為民事上的提存是有諸多要件的而且還有一些嚴格的限制包括領回之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14815.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14831.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那目前實務上如果有意願要繳回部分的這個犯罪所得或者是部分的這個財務的話呢目前可以直接向法院有一個櫃台可以直接把這個相關的金額給法院的櫃台法院就會直接把單據或者是收據給 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14832.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14852.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
給被告或者是辯護人這樣子就可以當作是他一個繳交那之後扣押就可以直接從他先繳交的這個財務直接沒收或者是直接沒收之後再經由刑訴的473等機制給被害人所以說以目前法院的運作機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14857.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14877.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這個建議是不是還是維持本來法條的文字就是後半段那個但後面就是但以自動繳交被害人因犯罪詐欺犯罪所交付的全部財務或財產上利益者就是把提存改成自動繳交並且把自動繳交改到前面然後一統這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14879.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14896.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那關於第二項的這個情形得以扣押該組織所取得全部被害人交付的財務或財產上利益那這個部分建議必須釐清說這邊所指的全部指的是全部的被害人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14897.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14926.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
還是指的是跟被告有關的被害人部分所交付的全部財務或財產上的利益因為為什麼會有這樣的疑問呢因為有的時候這個組織非常的大而跟這個被起訴的被告有關的被害人只是其中一部分所以說是不是這個全部被害人到底是指的是包括跟這個被告無關的其他被害人呢還是說就是只限於他自己這個跟這個車手或收水有關的被害人的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14926.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14944.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那如果是他有關的部分這個全部是不是指的是跟他有關的被害人交付的全部財務或財產上的利益也就是這個全部到底指的是人還是相關的被害人的財務這個可能必須要釐清那以上是關於這一條法務部版的初步意見謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14953.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14981.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
不是啦我們是立法立法院他們的意見我們也是要聽但也不是他們說的就全部我們是要反映民意也不是所有的單位他們講什麼我們就是要罩他們的我要跟各位同仁講我們是立法院我們是立法委員我們是直接跟民意負責的他們講的有道理的我們要聽啦但我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14983.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15010.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
你們這樣講來講去我越聽越覺得到底我們的立法本意並不是要保護這些詐騙集團的人耶這邊越講好像是保護他讓他有機會去和解有機會去脫罪我越聽越奇怪對不對很奇怪我不知道各位有沒有這種想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15011.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15027.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
像我們的提案是因為你們本來的沒有寫得很清楚我們是把它再說就一個簡單的條件得減輕結果現在越來越多你們這是在保護詐騙集團吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15033.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15059.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我稍微表示一下看法就是被害人其實他比較關心的是我能不能拿回來那如果說我們把所有的路都堵死了要嚴懲他我相信車手也好 木後的竹石也好他不太可能會讓你找到他的錢有時候我們就是到最後就是把他全部都抓去關但是被害人一毛錢都拿不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15060.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15085.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那我們也希望說小的最底層就車手他願意呢自白也賠償也供租上手我們給他一些優惠的條件那是在鼓勵他我們立法的我們現在今天提出這個法案的修正案就是要避免他說他就是五千塊然後結果就被減刑我們是要避免這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15088.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15112.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我們不要把這個重點搞錯了好不好我現在越覺得我們只是要避免這個所以你看我提的修正案就是全額填補被害人所受損害者或與被害人達成和解者我們就是為了把這個五千塊把這個他自己講的金額把這避免掉而已這搞到後來好像是哇 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15114.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15125.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我真的覺得你要給他你要給他誘因但這樣子我真的覺得很奇怪不知道各位你們的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15132.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15134.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
就是,我這樣會感覺到大家討論起來,我覺得車手會越來越多,會越來越少聽起來就是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15147.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15161.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
沒有 我覺得是這樣啦就是說這個意見是好的啦就是其實他現在是限縮喔大家也不要我們今天這樣的直播出去以後人家還以為我們政府又怎麼樣怎麼樣沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15162.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15168.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
事實上事現說我們早上的所有的質詢在說的是說去年8月的條文訂出來之後本來是希望能夠這個鼓勵讓被害者的金額被騙的詐騙的金額能夠快競速返還並且留一小道扇門讓這個車手願意把後面的組織供出來是這樣的政策利益好 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15186.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15207.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
沒想到 摸高一尺 倒高一丈這個 倒高一尺 摸高一丈對 倒高一尺 摸高一丈好 在這樣的狀況下竟然被他們找到一個漏洞變成他用這種就是調缸 叫戰守著所以每一個人都來自白然後而且都說一個很少的金額嘛這是漏洞所以我們現在在補漏洞好 那在這樣的狀況下其實我覺得法務部內政部剛剛法務部剛剛提出來的文字是把剛剛的洞再限縮了 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15215.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15239.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
其實是有線索因為他這邊講的是支付就是一定要把錢已經拿出來了已經到被害人手上了有支付了這是第一個第二個他是跟被害人有達到調解和和解的全部金額了所以也避開了之前這個文字上面犯罪所得這樣會被最高法院有不同判定這樣的見解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15239.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15262.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
其實光是這一段我覺得就值得嘉獎但是問題是這個文字寫起來因為太過於複雜了所以連我們在看都會覺得這是不是已經變成是在保護犯罪者啊等等所以我的意見是這樣啦我真的很誠意的我是建議召委是不是說因為大家現在也都是第一次看到嘛我們的態度都一致了方向都一致了但是兩個單位目前也還有一點要討論的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15269.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15273.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
第一要看著 要不要再想一想 文字稍微漂亮一點簡潔一點 或者是怎麼樣之類的至少制度包括這個提存 你們兩邊也討論好這個都是要負責任的嘛我是覺得是不是再有一點時間反正我們現在開會開到8月31號啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15290.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15296.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
對啊 反正我們要開會嘛要開會就討論一點實質的東西啊大家來討論就來討論啊我就講到這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15312.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15323.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我是覺得因為還有時間是不是我們那個司法院這邊然後看我們警政署這邊再討論一個文字因為大家目的很清楚就是不要讓詐騙集團發現這個當車手是一個很划算的一個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15330.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15356.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這個漏洞要補起來是大家共同的目標只是說到底什麼樣的文字才可以把這個漏洞縮小那目前大家在文字上還沒有一個明確的共識所以是不是司法院你們也應該要負起責任啦我是希望你們就是給一些更專業的意見把我們的這個目標補起來比較重要那如果你們覺得這個文字不夠好給更好的意見啊好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15360.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15389.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
好啦 我覺得啦反正今天開始我們就是要來審查這個法案啦但就像大家講的時間還很多啦但時間多不代表你們可以拖我覺得是這樣我跟你講反正我們立法院我們立法院反正不管怎麼樣我們至少有到七月底是確定的了我們也可以再排我覺得啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15390.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15395.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
法務部跟司法院跟什麼你們兩個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15397.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15426.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
去兩個禮拜之內讓我們內政委員會我們知道你們的態度你們的共識或什麼或我們今天這幾個條文你們至少有一個簡一個簡易的或是你們的共識的給我們先看一下不要我們下次還要再排審你們兩個還在這邊兩單位不是你們兩個啦你們兩單位還在這邊沒有這樣子對不對就浪費大家的時間喔好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15426.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15428.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
好,那我們今天就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15454.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15465.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好各位議員討論事項所列議案另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15480.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15481.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
鸡蛋糕 |