| IVOD_ID |
16775 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16775 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-23T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-23T14:26:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:56:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c8f16848c68b09429b5fa2f296a93534418e1797692e3a0de763789953a92d515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查
（一）委員劉建國等17人擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查
委員許宇甄等18人、委員邱鎮軍等19人、委員林月琴等17人、委員陳菁徽等18人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員范雲等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11006882號】、委員魯明哲等19人、委員傅崐萁等24人、委員洪孟楷等17人、委員邱若華等17人【提案第11010755號】分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第五十三條條文修正草案」等11案。
三、審查
（一）委員范雲等17人、委員何欣純等17人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員廖偉翔等19人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員羅美玲等16人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案」等7案。
（二）委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十六條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第二條、第五十三條及第九十九條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員徐富癸等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員黃捷等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
（八）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
（九）委員柯志恩等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第六十條之一條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員馬文君等19人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第三十條之一、第五十條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。
（十一）委員廖偉翔等21人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第五十條之一條文草案」案。
（十二）委員林楚茵等20人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第十條條文修正草案」案。
（十三）委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法增訂第四十條之一條文草案」案。
（十四）委員陳俊宇等18人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（十五）委員林楚茵等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（十六）委員劉建國等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（十七）委員邱若華等17人擬具「身心障礙者權益保障法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
【第一案至第三案採綜合詢答；本日僅處理第一案及第二案。】
【6月23日、25日及26日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 14:26:00 |
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好,好,好啊我來講,你還沒說,你不要生氣喔 |
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1807.734 |
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我會國台語掙扎然後我會配一些英語報告委員會初期委員11人已足法定人數,請主席宣布開會好,現在開會請議事委員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1826.832 |
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1849.851 |
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立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十七次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百十四年六月十八日星期三九十一分至十三時四十二分地點群憲樓八零一會議室出席委員陳委員昭之等十四人列席委員林委員德夫等十二人列席官員勞動部部長洪生翰等相關人員主席蘇兆吉委員清泉 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1850.772 |
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1857.656 |
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報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請勞動部部長就營造友善職場育兒環境落實照顧不離職政策規劃進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等18人提出質詢均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員林德福及楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1876.367 |
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1894.802 |
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決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定通過臨時提案二項宣讀完畢好請委員會上市議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1895.987 |
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1917.851 |
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沒有,那我們議事錄來確定本日會議整為第一案審查委員劉建國等17年及台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚老人福利罰第48條條文修正草案即兩案第二案審查委員及台灣民眾黨民眾黨黨團分別凝聚身心障礙者權利保障罰第53條條文修正草案即11案 |
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1919.741 |
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1942.536 |
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第三案審查委員分別凝聚身心障礙者權利保障法部分條文審查案計23案那以上議程採綜合詢答其中第一案及第二案於本日進行處理先做一下宣告為了使聽譽站的朋友們可以更加了解本日議案的審查過程那請委員及官員分別在諮詢台 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1944.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1955.529 |
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及被巡台發言以立手語翻譯員畫面的轉播那現在來介紹在場的委員、列席官員及手語翻譯員另外有同步天達人的服務我們第一位委員是陳昭之陳委員第二位是林月琴林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1973.41 |
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1999.731 |
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第三位是王振旭 王委員衛務部我們邱太仁 邱部長社交署代理署長 周道軍好 次長過來我們的政務次長 李建德 李次長華規會參事 陳信成長照司 司長 祝建芳董記處處長 李秋彥 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2002.173 |
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2029.573 |
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心理健康師代理師長鄭淑欣護理及健康照護師專門委員曾淑芬保護服務師專門委員張靖倫醫事師檢任計政卓立平中央健康保險署副署長陳亮瑜國健署檢任計政謝佩君司法院少年級家事廳法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2030.526 |
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2058.7 |
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郭耀明謝謝還有家事廳的法官張宇家謝謝行政院主計總署公務預算處檢任視察陳淑萍還有國事普查處專門委員張怡惠謝謝全區部法規師檢任視察蕭立榮退伍師專門委員朱美英內政部國土管理管理署建築管理署檢任計政盧昭宏謝謝 |
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2060.405 |
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2084.085 |
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國路署住宅組專門委員張宇欣警政署刑事警察局科長許忠彥好謝謝考選部參研室研究委員黃立賢縱規師專門委員翁千惠交通部公共運輸及監理師副市長胡迪奇行政院人事行政總處縱規處檢任市長孫成錦還有 |
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2089.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2106.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主編人力處專門委員曾永芳素化部數位政務司高級分析師王忠彥勞動部勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉還有身心障礙者及特定對象就業組組長劉玉儀勞動條件及就業評委司副市長王金榮統計處專門委員鄭雅飛經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2120.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2148.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
經濟法治師專門委員馬海傑標準局檢任計政政覽員產花署科長林育淳產業技術師科長陳俊維教育部學生事務及特殊教育師專門委許文珍文化部重貴司副司長陳怡靜法務部參事汪蘭君 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2150.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2172.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
小政署主任律師蘇坤明金龍監督管理委員會保險局副組長許文鈞國家通信傳播委員會法律事務處總統委員李文秀原住民社會福利處副組長董建芬 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2176.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2199.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
來我們現在又到了本委員會的陳清輝陳委員好我們今天特別邀請到的是這個首席議員還有天達園的這些成員以上跟各位介紹我們李振輝首席議員謝謝好歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2205.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2214.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
張慈山 守議員 好 謝謝邱垂祿 守議員 就這位 謝謝陳梅婉 守議員 好 謝謝聽導員 由葉惠慈黃之琳 聽導員 謝謝彭仁義 聽導員 謝謝方文文 聽導員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2237.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2260.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
謝宜萱聽打員還有趙昌偉聽打員好謝謝現在請提案委員來說明提案要旨讓每位委員每按兩分鐘我們先請第一位陳昭之陳委員代表台灣民眾黨團來做說明兩個一併可以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2268.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2288.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好可以了好謝謝主席好那我先提到這個身上者權益保障法第53條的說明那民眾黨這次修法的核心是讓公共空間的設計更符合現代社會的包容性跟多元需求我們不時都會在新聞上看到類似的新聞上禮拜新北市有一位國動男生 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2288.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2293.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他在公車上其實已經讓座給他人卻被一位大媽用好幾分鐘的時間惡言責罵讓這個孩子在車上錯氣那台北捷運也長期出現好多這樣的狀況那這樣類似的糾紛案件大概有幾百件其實實際需求的乘客例如懷孕初期的婦女罹患內科慢性疾病或身體不適但沒有辦法清楚辨識的民眾常常因為看不到而被指責被要求讓位甚至引發爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2318.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2330.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這會造成使用上的壓力而且也偏離座位設計的原意那民眾黨參考了英國日國日本及台鐵的做法建議將現行條文中的博愛座優先修正為優先座並將適用對象擴大為有實際需求者取代原來有刻板印象的老弱婦孺這錯詞透過文字跟標示的調整讓公共運輸座位的使用更加清楚讓不必要的產生不必要的道德的這個審判誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2347.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2350.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
擁擠的車廂有任何需求的攝影都不應該為了一個座位感到羞愧、愁愁或難堪真正成熟的社會不應該把善意變成壓力也不應該讓一張椅子成為道德審判的法庭我們想修的不只是條文而是社會看待需求者的眼光這是選擇而不是義務希望透過這次的修法還規每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2371.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2379.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
需要被照顧人的一份安心跟尊嚴那請懇請這個各位委員能夠支持我這個版本那我接下來繼續再談老人福利法第48條的修法說明我也謝謝劉教委能夠這次能讓我們來有機會提出這個修正案我們這次提出的第48條修正案主要是為了導正 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2392.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2405.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
目前不同的長照機構 評鑑制度跟行政處分依據不一致的問題這幾天我有看到很多長照3.0的新聞未來我國的長照政策有三大策略方向就是放寬服務對象 擴充服務內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2408.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2419.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
導入這個社會輔具智慧輔具等等這個創新元素那其中今年九月將優先擴大外籍看護的家庭可以使用日照拖固交通補助並放寬喘息服務的這個場域增加服務機構的彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2423.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2440.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這些措施跟我們修正案的理念不謀而合都是關注實際的照顧體驗給予需求者更多的彈性然而在現行制度中老人福利機構被評為兵等或丁等會面臨罰則跟公告然後這個等地制是根據執法所設 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2441.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2444.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟這個長期照顧服務法或護理人員等法規明確的合格跟不合格標準明顯脫節就是一個有等地一個是合格或不合格那這樣的制度不僅造成評鑑制度的結果認定不一也衍生出排名的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2457.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2461.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那機構為了過度的書面的作業實際照顧時間可能受到擠壓那更嚴重的就是制度本身可能會誤導機構為了追求分數 譬如79分跟80分就是不同等地會偏離提高照顧品質的本質目標所以台灣民眾黨的修法是把條文中的兵等或丁等明確改為不合格那作為行政處分的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2483.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2501.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
也就是說促使主管機關能夠修正執法讓評鑑制度回歸單純公平跟所有的照顧長照的體系有一致的標準就是合格或不合格而不是加以丙丁等讓真正的機構能夠朝向品質提升永續經營的方向邁進這樣也才能夠落實對於高齡者的基本照顧權益保障那我也懇請在座的同事們能夠支持這次的修法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2510.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2516.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好 謝謝陳昭志委員的提案說明那接下來請提案委員林月琴委員來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2527.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2544.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
博愛座的概念源自於對蔣介石的紀念為民國65年台北市公車業者為追屍已故前總統蔣介石逝世週年共同協議開始的措施其後在民國102年的時候身心障礙者權益保障法第53條修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2546.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2567.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
規定大眾運輸工具應設立博愛座提供給老弱婦孺優先乘坐並比例要達到總座位的15%因此有了法院依據而後交通部也在106年的時候據此訂定了大眾運輸工具無障礙設施設置辦法整體落實生權法第53條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2568.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2596.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
不過近來發生的博愛座之亂其實社會已經爭議了一段時間其中令人擔憂的現象在於爭議事件在媒體所呈現的多半出現的是老人硬逼著年輕人要讓座而發生衝突這樣的訊息在世代間會造成老青兩個世代各自受傷的結果一方面營造老人依老賣老不講理的形象同時也營造年輕人自私冷漠的樣貌 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2597.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2619.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
讓座本來是出自於乘客間的善意但是因為不讓座而擴大為惡意的解讀甚至造成世代間的爭議這應該不是當時提出法律修正案的委員的想法我認為不讓座應該要設置但是在法律上跟民眾的認知上有各自有調整的必要對有善意的人來說大眾運輸工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2621.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2639.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不需特别设立博爱座也会自动让座而当民众不让座并不意味着他没有善意而极有可能他也有需要这个座位据这样的观念我认为身权法规定的博爱座应该定义为优先座强调因为身体不是有需要的人优先使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2643.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2659.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
換句話說如果沒有這樣的需求出現的時候任何人都可以使用隨著法律的修正對預期媒體的宣傳這樣的新觀念可以及時讓民眾獲得產生出新的見解跟新的社會共識敬請各位委員支持 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2675.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2691.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
主席各位委員各位官員還有各位關心這個議題的朋友大家早安本席有兩個版本因此一次進行兩案的提案說明我提出的身心障礙權力保障法有三個修法重點首先第53條有關博愛做的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2692.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2721.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
近年來博愛座引起許多的社會爭議有些人可能是身體不適或有隱形的障礙當下真的需要坐下來休息但因為看起來不像老弱婦就被懷疑甚至被責難這其實對當事人是一種傷害所以我們把實際有需要的人明確的寫進法律裡就是希望社會能慢慢來改變觀念博愛座的精神不是你要看起來需要而是你真的有需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2721.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2739.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這才是重點我們希望透過這樣的修法讓大家知道每個人都可能有需要幫助的時候不要太快用外表來判斷也別因為對方不像你想像中的樣子就覺得他不應該坐在博愛座上這是我們一起要努力建立的社會氛圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2740.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2755.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第二 聯合國生長權利審查報告指出我國過去對於教養院福利機構之規範仍有不足也曾發生過多起不當對待甚至人權侵害的事件這樣的情況不該再被容忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2755.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2773.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
因此我們這次增訂機構負責人的資格限制並建立資格審查制度同時明文規定發現虐待遺棄等情況下的通報義務和罰則讓每一位身障者在機構中都能獲得尊嚴與安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2773.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2789.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第三我們也看到資源分配的不均如何限制了身障朋友的生活參與行動自由無論是手語翻譯同步聽打或是跨區交通的協助這些原本應該由政府積極提供的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2790.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2816.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
卻因為城鄉的差距財政不均而嚴重有落差我們此次的修法特別增訂主管機關應該設立整合平台推動橫向資源協調還有資訊透明讓身障者不受制於住在哪裡而是真正平等的享有應有的權利和服務委員會的諸位同仁我們所提出的這些修法都是許多身障朋友的建議與呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2818.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2823.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
同時也是社會對平等還有人權的期待希望不分朝野都可以支持這樣子的修法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2841.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2848.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那戶口58條我再補充一下剛剛陳教授也講的重點了最主要還是台灣的這個住室機構不只是這個老人護理機構包含這個長照機構還有護理機構那兩個機構就是現有的長照機構跟護理機構的評鑑標準就是合格跟不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2862.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2876.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那為什麼老虎機構把它分作加以秉定那我想我們就希望透過秀娃把它去一致啦簡單講就是這個樣子這樣還是 這樣是在行政機關在執行的時候我覺得是有一致性的一個處理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2877.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2890.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這應該是一個非常正確的一個作為那第二件事情我必須要再特別提醒衛福部因為身權法我們今天分作第二案跟第三案那第二案是53條就針對這個博愛生活的事情這個是將近50年來的這個過去訂定的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2897.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2901.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
確實不只是這段時間其實累積這四五十年來還是有很多爭議的狀況站在這個主管機關微部必須要去審視面對這個事情應該如何來做一個更積極的符合社會大眾期待博愛座的定義、名稱跟範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2918.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2929.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
跟執行的這樣的一個認定我想這個是一個非常重要的事情所以我們把它抽出來在第二案那第三案我要特別特別再提醒衛務部深圈館這次有將近快二十幾案也就是說有很多委員提出要來大幅修正深圈館的版本深圈館最主要還是要來回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2943.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2960.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
身心障礙者的這樣的一個需求跟相關權力的保障那勢必面對到很多的面向我們要有更多的這樣的一個討論的一個方式我記得十來年前的時候應該是在15、16年前當時的申請法也大修了三十多個條文那時候行政機關也積極的面對我們甚至以沒有用到委員會時間從要正式進到委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2972.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2980.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
主條審查的時候我是藉隔壁的那個會議廳從下午兩點邀請所有各單位就像今天這樣各個單位因為深圳涉及的面向很廣然後市權的機關也很多所以我們從下午兩點開始跟各個機關還有身陷障礙者團體面對面的還有很多的委員大家開誠布公的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2996.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3004.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
然後針對很多的角度 很多的現狀 很多的執行面然後有鉅細明理的這樣的一個討論所以我們從下午2點一直討論到晚上10點 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3010.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3029.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們也才能申請我可以在那一次有這樣的具體性的進展的一個修法的一個斬獲但是已經又過了現在十多年那各位委員也應所有申請參加者朋友的這樣的一個期待跟提出了這樣的一個意見也希望我們可以快速的來進入實質的上的討論但是原本 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3032.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3039.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
驗版似乎的速度有一點慢了我還是希望這邊提醒我們衛務部部長還有相關的主政機關是不是可以盡速的把這樣的回應身心上期待的這樣的一個版本 驗版趕快提出來讓我們可以跟所有的委員來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3058.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3077.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
要來替身心障礙者把相關的制度定得更完善更周全的這些委員有所回應這部分我特別要跟衛福部來做提醒除了今天有很多的身心障礙者朋友也開了記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3078.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3106.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
不管是這個個人助理支持的這樣的一個服務還有自己生活的這樣的一個支持當我們有這樣的政策但是實際上執行面確實打了大大的這樣折扣那問題的所在是在什麼地方有訂制度然後卻沒有辦法按制度來執行所以這有牽涉到所謂的真正的這樣的相關的一些配套還有相關的一些監督的一個機制必須真的是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3107.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3130.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
快速的來做相關的一些調整跟修正才有真正的來回應他們這樣的一個需求也讓政府真正的一個美意可以達到更好的這樣的一個進展所以我在這邊做一個重要的補充所以我還是希望期待我們衛部可以儘速把願板提出來以上跟委會做這樣的報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3136.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3139.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
接下來我們就請衛務部邱部長就本日議程來併用說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3149.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3176.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主席、各位委員、女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議審查老人福利法第48條條文修正草案及身心障礙者權益保障法部分條文修正草案本部呈邀列席報告敬請各位委員不吝執教一、審查老人福利法第48條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3178.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3194.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
修正草案有關委員建議將老人福利機構評鑑之評鑑結果調整為合格不合格之修正方向有利於本部各項各類住宿型機構評鑑結果之一致性本部竟表支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3196.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3212.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
2.审查身心障碍者权益保障法部分修正条文修正草案本部中省委员提案版本仅就共同性意见简要说明1.委员徐悟辉等18人委员林楚英等20人委员焕云等17人 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3213.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3232.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
委員陳金輝等16人委員羅廷偉等16人委員何新淳等17人委員廖偉祥等19人委員羅美玲等16人委員劉憲國等17人提案增訂身心障礙者代表組成比例及受理申訴案件政會表列身心障礙者參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3233.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3259.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
人數比例有利於身心障礙者積極參與政策決策過程本部予以支持但會議召開頻率記錄公開方式等執行細節可訂定行政規則落實辦理無需以法律位階明定另外現行已有設立身心障礙者權益射損協調機制可針對歧視案事件進行行政調查及裁處無需再訂定申訴制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3263.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3266.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
有關擴大歧視規定及增加賠償請求權行政院克正原定緩歧視法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3289.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3315.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
建議配合該法相關規定辦理為妥另外有關納入合理調整規定本部競表致詞為合理調整屬於新的概念尚需透過社會先導與及教育如立即訂定罰則恐引發負面效果建請審慎考量三 委員范穎等17人 委員羅廷偉等16人委員何新泉等17人 委員廖瑋祥等16人 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3317.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3331.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
廖偉祥等21人委員劉建國等17人提案增訂同儕支持個人助理與社區居住之專章或專條委員所提專章專條之個人協助定義與範圍未明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3333.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3354.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
可能以長期照顧教育部門、教育部門及社政部門之服務人力與法令產生競合其次,本法第五十條已有社區機制服務其服務內涵並同個人助理服務之執行細節,僅規範以本法授權執法身心障礙者個人照顧服務辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3355.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3373.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
建立无虚于文化称定是委员陈冠廷等二十人委员邱振军等十六至九人委员徐玉珍等十八人委员陈庆威等十六人委员邱德华等十七人委员林烈群等十七人委员范林等十七人委员鲁饼子等十七人 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3374.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3390.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
委員洪孟寒等17人、委員傅昆起等20人、委員廟瑋祥等17人、委員何欣淳等17人、委員劉建國等17人台灣民眾黨黨團提案調整優先乘坐不該坐的對象、條件、座位名稱及設置比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3392.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3413.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
有關將乘坐不外坐對象擴大至為其他實際需要者並將不外坐之用於修正為優先其本部予以支持另有關將不外坐設置比例、大眾運輸工具設計概念等市設交通部全者疑請該部表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3414.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3439.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
委員陳金輝等16人委員羅伯霆等17人委員邱建國等17人提案增訂身心障礙福利機構之院長主任或工作人員是消極資格有關建議增訂身心障礙福利機構業務負責人院長主任工作人員消極資格及機構違反法規法則以保證服務對象權利並確保機構服務品質本部競表致詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3445.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3448.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
有關明定各類傳播媒體不得有歧視性報導以弱勢平等與不歧視精神本部競表支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3469.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3491.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
唯有官規範對象徵定公職人員、民意代表參選人或個人等歧視之法者考量前開刑刑樣態多元現階段能應著重於社會宣導及教育,自然徵定法者恐產生負面效果,予應審慎研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3494.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3518.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
有關各委員所提版本室條文,請參閱書面報告本部曾答應各委員支持交集監督,在此靜置現場,並期各位委員繼續予以支持以上,謝謝好,謝謝部長有關本室會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄,刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3523.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3546.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
現在開始詢答 做一下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘那10點半截止 歡迎登記委員如有出面質詢 請於三位前提出預期不受理那暫定10點半休息10分鐘依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭之委員來做詢答謝謝主席 麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3554.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3555.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
好,來,有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3560.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3578.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
部長早部長您上任一年多了我相信對您自己所管轄的機構跟這個業務都相當的掌握那平常跟轄下的官員應該有很多的開會我想請問部長目前手下您的官員的職位代理情形您是否有掌握呢因為目前的主祕現任主祕劉玉娟原來兼任這個社保司司長但去年因為涉嫌這個霸凌免監之後他現在應該沒有對同仁再不要罵了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3589.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3611.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
沒有沒有 我們現在一片祥和 人品的增長 讓你的業務也能夠順利進行我手邊掌握的資訊是 目前代理的官員有社保市代理市長陳真惠新建市代理市長鄭淑欣 社家屬代理市長周道軍請問資料正確嗎 就目前還有市長是代理我想請問部長 你這些人士聘用有摯愛嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3614.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3628.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
因為他們都代理半年以上了那我其實沒有要否定這個代理主管的他們的努力但是持續代理沒有辦法轉正或是你沒辦法找到適當的接任人選我覺得在業務執行上這個還是會有一些彆扭 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3628.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3634.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
同仁們也會覺得說有點群龍無首會有點不安而且這些都是專業領域您身為這個臺灣社政衛政的這個大家長很多專業團體民間團體甚至他們想要做一些陳情甚至一些討論參與政策的參與那也會擔心沒有一個明確的一個官員還能夠帶領他們來做這些溝通那如果有司長跟署長的一起參與我覺得我相信對衛福部在業務上執行上也會比較有魄力所以請問部長你多久才能夠聘滿這些職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3659.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3674.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
非常謝謝委員的關心那第一個我首先保證我們的業務一定是我們行程督導讓那個相關的司徒剛剛提到的司徒運作無礙而且我們很感謝代理人都非常優秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3675.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3688.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
代理的 對 那我想說前署長楊淑儀她也特別提到其實用人要不分顏色嘛 只要就是說業界啦 民間啦 專家都學者都有很多這樣的人才 我也是希望說這些人能夠趕快能夠幫助這個衛福部能夠推動更多的這個政策跟福國利民的一些法案嘛 我們是樂觀其成啦部長 這個部分請加油齁 這個代理時間有點久了不要像薛衛原部長喔衛福部討人厭 一選選了兩年多喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3702.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3708.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
唯材適用好 部長請記得 謝謝你部長 那這個身心障礙者的權利公約我以下簡稱CRPD強調自立生活是障礙者的基本權利那很多團體一直很關心剛剛這個趙偉有提到個人助理服務究竟能否入法所以我想請問部長威福這次修法有沒有這個增訂條文區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3724.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3740.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
照顧服務跟個人助理服務並且明文保障障礙者能夠選擇支持者跟他服務方式的自主權因為根據CRPD的第五條的一般性的意見他個人助理服務的核心就是由障礙者主導自主選擇的支持可是現在實務有一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3743.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3770.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
就是說因為現在有長照服務那障礙者沒有辦法使用這個各住服務導致障礙者的生活就被迫要去配合這個體制上的這個限制部長您知道我提的這個情形嗎我瞭解但是目前來講並沒有使用長照服務就不能使用各住服務等一下我來舉例有一些限制我規定那當然這樣的結合是不是在溝通上我們都可以求改或者是在制度上需要再改善所以你目前的設計並沒有把它區分開來還沒有區分開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3773.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3779.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那很感謝委員對CRPD的瞭解跟指導那我想CRPD5號一般性意見是針對CRPD第49條的一個補充說明那這個就強調我想不敢外言我想您的屬下他們應該是比較熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3789.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3794.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
雖然強調身心障礙者自立我想跟您分享就是台灣身心障礙者自主聯盟自立生活的聯盟在去年有針對個人助理服務進行問卷調查結果顯示有分之一的受訪者他反映這些資料也請你參考服務時數是不足的個人助理人力不足還有有一些受訪者指出說會限制我的生活決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3811.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3837.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
或自負額過高啦服務內容不符需求評估結果跟實際需求不符等等那目前有一些縣市他不提供例如例如洗澡啦料理啦這個煮東西的如廁外出啊陪伴等基本項目但是這些正是障礙者每天生活的核心需求啊那卻常常因為已經有長照的這個服務項目不列入這個補助項目等理由被排除掉部長你覺得這樣合適嗎合理嗎嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3840.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3856.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
他被排除掉了這個用 其實這用長照跟個人助理的用意絕對是把它相互相承 相得益彰部長 正是 部長就是長照體系或個人助理體系其實它的出發點都是協助跟支持但是這個制度互相抵觸 互相排除時那 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3857.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3881.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個障礙者他無法獲得完整的服務反而在兩個系統當中被推來推去有點像皮球被這個踢來踢去所以部長你覺得這樣的制度有落實這個剛剛我提到的CRPD第五號一般性意見所強調的支持障礙者自立生活跟自主選擇這樣子的一個做法嗎所以市域部長你願意考慮一下想辦法讓這個個人助理服務從長照的這個邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3883.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3891.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
出來把它釋放出來建立一套獨立的以障礙者的需求為主的一個支持制度就這個方向可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3895.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3904.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
因為他們覺得有排除互相抵觸但是還有需要改進的地方一定努力來改進自己說個人助理的服務其實已經都存在了會需要個人需要來給他服務那是不是說要進一步來進 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3915.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3942.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
更具體來呈現那可能就是要來好好的研議它所產生的需要性我不瞞委員報告大概一兩年前我也是同樣我當召委的時候也是邀請到所有的我們所有老師各種老師一起來在這邊討論的相當的一個因為在這個部分是有更多的討論需要性所以才會延到現在又再繼續來討論我相信我們一定能夠討論是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3943.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3961.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
新興障礙者自立生活聯盟他們提出三個訴求第一個就是個人助理不應該限制障礙者的生活跟決定因為個人助理服務的精神就是透過障礙者的指示安排工作內容達到障礙者自主的選擇決定生活的目的也不應該有個長照項目就切割了 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3961.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3973.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
他的這個服務或讓他中斷 造成他的生活被就是有一些限制那第二個他們的訴求個人助理服務是達成障礙者自立生活的一環所以個人助理的限制讓障礙者可以彈性的使用這個助理服務可是目前好像有一個月就要排定所有的服務時間跟項目喔而且沒有辦法更動行程的 沒有彈性喔那而且這是他們的訴求降低障礙者服務各住的這個自負額也是他們的訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3988.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4009.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
雖然有補助交通費可是這樣100塊錢他們常常有時候是會超過的他們第三個訴求就是個人助理服務當然就是說要督導教育制度完整讓他們能夠接受一個這個值錢跟回訊制度那這樣可以建立他們這個生活品質這個或是說對於自立生活概念這個概念是很很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4010.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4039.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
食物現場現在知道他們提出來的就是這些身障者食物現場有一些服務人員他會特定挑案挑案做甚至因為不想做而甚至表示說他們不提供這個服務項目或是有人常常請假造成一個調度上的一個困難所以是不是當然我也了解很多是雙向的雙向就是障礙者的需求跟這個服務者所以是不是應該對障礙者也要建立使用個人助理服務的權利跟義務認知促進了解大家怎麼來對等的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4040.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4054.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這個部分也希望在立法的時候你們可以有所顧慮到我今天花很多時間談了個人助理的改革不是因為他做得不好喔其實你看看這個數字他做得很不錯因為從這個表格看出來近三年的成績這個在2022年將近20萬小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4058.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4072.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那2023年已經達到22.5萬小時我目前手邊只有2024年上半年就已經有13.8萬小時一直在持續增加所以我非常肯定社家屬應該投注了相當的心力包含地方的推動制度的盤整 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4073.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4078.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
還有這預算支持都很值得肯定但是我也希望您能夠重視一下這個障礙者的時機回歸他們覺得服務時數是還是不夠的排班沒有彈性剛剛我提到排班沒有彈性那自負額有點造成負擔服務人力不足等 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4088.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4113.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以制度這次是有擴張有擴大但是離真正的這個人本還有距離所以我想最後我想要跟部長談這個我要引用楊嬌大周薇欣委員的一段很重要的話她說我們現在的政府雖然通過一個法但我們要執行這個聯合國的剛剛提到了身心障礙者的權利公約但我們政府對於身心障礙者的服務的介入都停留在一個觀念叫做慈善的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4115.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4137.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
慈善的觀點但是現在整個聯合國的公約或是國際上在做這件事的時候已經都建立在人權模式的觀點但我們政府到目前為止比較偏向用慈善的觀點政府也是所以我希望是不是說本次修法可以把個人助理服務入法那區別長照導向的一個照顧導向的長照服務去做彈性調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4138.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4158.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那不是權力而是福利本地我講的就是說你還欠我一個代孕專法代孕專法我也要告訴你它不是福利不是施捨它是一個我們的權利我們要做這件事情所以基本上我們不是要政府的同意跟允許我們要政府的好好管理部長我們曾經一起參與民主運動的一個年代 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4161.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4183.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們當時就講政府是公僕 人民才是頭家所以民主國家沒有德政這件事就是沒有福利 只有他們的權利因為政府是受人民的委託 拿到選票受到委託那是拿人民的納稅錢去服務人民所以我覺得基本上我們要在這個觀念上做改變 這是權利部長 你再看我一個代孕專訪 請你繼續努力好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4185.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4200.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那我們朝野也一起努力我想我們對身心障礙者不只是在慈善的觀念,社會本來就是互相照顧我們更是建立在人權模式人民是頭家,政府是公僕我們一起努力過嘛,就是這樣的觀念好,謝謝委員,謝謝主席好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝部長好,接下來請林月晴委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4221.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4222.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
主席麻煩邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4228.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4250.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
委員長今天早上身心障礙團體在台北市議會召開記者會訴求什麼 訴求自立生活申請應有合理的標準時數應該要 評估應該要透明而且強烈的控訴專家委員會成員對身心障礙者沒有同理心為什麼這麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4251.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4279.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我今天如果事實上是一個24小時要人家全力協助的可是委員為什麼會講說那你家人為什麼不幫你處理呢那我已經家人如果要24小時照顧總是要一個喘息嘛而且甚至還提到說那你的你們為了爭取這些自己這個時數自己生存的事實上是為了成為英雄不能夠讓他得逞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4280.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4292.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
免得各地的障礙者都會群起效仿部長今天如果委員會各地的委員會如果長這個樣子的話缺乏人權觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4294.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4323.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
審查的門檻又高審查黑箱服務斷裂讓障礙者生活的沒尊嚴這是否符合CRPD的精神當然不符合啊那所以社會福利的提供本來就是要預計被照顧者的需求程度來給予足夠的服務不要漏接任何一個人更是不要去羞辱到所有障礙都是社會造成制度造成的可是卻有委員事實上是竟然是這樣子去羞辱到這一群 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4323.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4334.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們政府應該要有責任照顧的可是一直都沒有弱勢所以本席要問的是你的資源部件緩慢到底要怎麼實現平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4335.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4359.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好跟委員報告一下我們不管是在衛政或醫政方面其實國家政府都很注重而且都尤其在社政方面都站在這是一種應該有的權益那這個部分來立足點來努力其實成果其實我們在五月在像在日內瓦WHA也常常呈現我們社會福利的努力也得到各國的肯定我想我們對自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4360.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4378.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
政府的努力 人民要有信心國家的發展好中還要再求好所以如果任何的一個做得不好的我們都很謙卑的希望把它改善身心障礙者權益保障法在2015年大幅修正後10年來本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4379.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4396.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那第50條的規定的自立生活服務始終事實上是不夠的以本法的第50條身心障礙者自立生活的相關的社區支持為例身心障礙者照顧服務支援部件計畫裡邊以家庭照顧者 葬友本人為服務對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4397.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4419.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
補助的據點跟人事費用那提供法定服務跟創新服務所以想問部長說到今年為止身心障礙者服務機構只有266家公立的只有12家其他的是私立跟公社民營機構多數事實上是住宿型機構239家生活重建機構才7家而已福利服務中心20家那服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4421.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4433.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
相較之下 現金補助對象是96.3萬人除了發現金跟提供住宿 帳友們所得到的服務項目少之又少請問一下 帳友們還可以得到什麼樣的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4433.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4463.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好我想謝謝委員提出這麼一些數據讓我們來做一個研議跟檢討是不是這個部分我請理事長幫忙回答非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心我想陳副委員剛剛所提出的我們在這個部分有幾個第一個我們是最主要是在整個市下PD裡面我們最主要是社區市的這一個服務我們希望能夠來擴建那這裡面我們涵蓋率我跟委員報告我們事實上是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4463.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4481.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
到2028年我們的目標是達到29.02那我們到那個去年大概已經涵蓋率是24%那我們現在目前會來穩步就你剛剛說涵蓋率的問題我們現在會來趕快大概時間點會做到什麼時候為什麼因為我們去看長照跟身障事實上落差非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4483.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4500.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以希望你們的速度事實上是應該要快一點為什麼當下對需要生活智力資源的戰友們來說幾乎只能獲得個人助理的服務不過我剛剛也提到我真的要請求你們不要讓如果今天審查的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4501.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4514.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
可不可以有私雅PD的精神不是在委員會讓人家身障者在那邊會議當中15分鐘坐立難安整個都是羞辱式的語言所以拜託一下這個我也要請我們盡早處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4517.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4531.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以這個問題當然不是只有需要各住業因為我們現在除了發現金以外各住事實上是比較實際的服務可是根據深藏團體的調查七成的藏友們獲得的各住的時數是不足的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4532.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4554.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
問一下部長 公共服務的評級限制了帳遊的期待本法推動10年 帳遊們各項資源都缺竟然只對於各住的時數提出要求而已現在他們只期待能不能時數可以增加問題是全國提供服務的各住只有608位那獲得服務的帳遊只有1096人 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4556.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4574.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
平均每人每月獲得37.4小時的服務你們怎麼理解這個問題真的時數事實上是非常低可是我剛剛有提過有些人事實上是他需要24小時的人力協助加了已經付出大半的話事實上有時候要有些替代的人手可是你們的服務的時數非常的低 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4576.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4590.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我想對於照顧者的照顧,也是我們未來政府很重視的喘息服務這個部分其實是我們未來譬如說在長照3.0也是非常重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4591.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4616.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
政府在這個部分可是現在長照都遠比以我們的身心障礙者服務提供的更完整當然這兩者是可以並用是不是理事長要不要補充一下包國元我想三個重點第一個其實事實上台灣相較於日本日本他們是兩者你只能二者而一喔台灣是身心障礙者他也既可以使用我們長照也可以使用我們個人助理那他們的使用率我記得如果有重疊的話應該是70% |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4617.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4641.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
市長那是真的是懂得了解的人 否則大部分身障者他了解的是你的身障服務的確了解的人他會身障跟我們的長照事實上是並用的可是我還是要問喔 要到什麼時候才能落實本法第50條規定的多元服務身心障礙者照顧服務部件計畫五年的目標要產出到哪些服務項目 服務人數各自要達到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4642.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4651.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
現在目前有關個人助理這一塊我知道團體還有各界都非常關心那我跟委員報告在本部我們現在目前提給我們現在修訂裡面是50條之一裡面我們會增加一條專門的修正那現在我們現在目前現行是50條裡面現在目前是有10項那個人助理事項是授權執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4667.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4692.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那我們現在我們為了回應現在目前民間的一個部分我們現在是以50條之一的方式來處理那個自立生活跟各住這個部分跟委員報告好 不過各住就法定規定各住需具備教保員跟訓練員跟生活服務員跟照顧服務員家庭托僱服務員或者是臨時及短期照顧服務員資格非常多樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4692.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4714.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那並且實務上的工作內容包含協助外出照顧身體照顧跟以家室服務部長可是根據團體調查有7%的各住是不提供外出服務的另外身體照顧跟家室服務也有不願意提供的狀況所以想問一下各住的項目各縣是不一致的話你們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4715.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4734.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我想當然要取得共識不能不同的縣市有不同的一個服務狀況這個部分我相信我們應該都有在努力有在努力的話這事實上是團體們身上團體們他們的調查的不提供洗澡的22%是最多最少的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4734.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4759.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
不提供外出甚至就醫有時候甚至還被拒絕所以想問說服務人員也不夠量能就沒有辦法提升個人助理的薪資中去年的確調升到每小時250塊並補助勞健保可是請問這項政策到底有沒有吸引到符合資格的來做我們的各助的工作因為我們現在才608位各助而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4760.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4776.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那我不知道對於各住的人的提升的問題你們還有沒有什麼其他策略是 包委員 我想委員知道就是說個人助理跟長照其實事實上它的目的是不一樣那個長照顧名思義主要是生活照顧但是個人助理這邊主要是社會參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4777.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4802.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以我想這個部分我們當然會以這個就是說彼此之間兩者雖然我們會以兩者之間的整合為主那這裡面會牽涉到第二個問題剛剛委員剛剛所說的各住這邊它的這個數量還有它的這一個品質雖然部分我們當然也我們會透過薪資提高來吸引更多人能夠投入到PA跟現薪資已經提到250的時候那有吸引到更多人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4803.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4826.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們當然這部分我們會來強化那我們現在目前還有一個就是說只要他受訓好像25小時就可以來擔任我們的個人助理那我想這個部分也會對於我們身心障礙者在很多一些社會參與上面來說會有很大的一個會有很大的幫助那新北市政府呢整合障友服務的個人助理跟長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4827.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4843.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
服務的居家服務資源可是實務上發生先天軟骨不全證帳有具有申請各住的資格可是在長照照顧服務需求等級評估卻只有二級的那個奇怪現象這個我上次有質詢過所以想問部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4847.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4863.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
這兩套評估制度有落差的問題 上次我就有質詢過請問現在可以提出 今天可以提出具體的解決方式了嗎因為上次已經質詢過 已經現在有具體的解決方式嗎我們現在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4867.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4881.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我現在目前正在整合那個有關於身心障礙跟長照這邊我同意這邊現在目前確實有一個gap但是我也提供一個數字給委員了解我們現在其實在整個長照使用裡面身心障礙者他大概47% |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4883.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4900.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們主要的長照使用者其實時間障礙者的這個比例那個其實快要一半啦市長我想講的是他們評估長照跟身上的連評估同樣的人就他狀況是一樣的就評估的等級事實上不同我要請你們是解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4902.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4924.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
對,但是委員我想你也了解長照他要使用其實最重要是CMS嘛就是說你必須要符合disability整個失能的這一個部分你才能夠來申請但身心障礙的話他這裡面其實主要他有各個面向除了生活照顧之外另外還有其他他有包括他的整個社會參與啊還有另外像就學就醫等等這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4927.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4941.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
不同不同的這個層面所以這兩邊的他的整個評估的指標其實還是略略有一些不一樣可是落差非常的大是是是是那我了解那我所以我現在正在著急我現在目前社家屬這邊有問題當什麼時候可以去解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4943.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4961.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我們現在3.0也準備明年上路嘛那現在其中有幾支計畫裡面其實確實有一個部分就是有關於聲音障礙者跟長照這邊資源還有各項的一個整合的部分另外一個就是剛我念了各住的一些資格裡面是跟長照服務法對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4962.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4980.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
照顧人員的資格的認定都有一些弱差甚至名稱不同的話還影響到他們的權益所以工作上涉及到身體照顧的應該就是謹慎你們何時會針對人力資格的檢討並做整合因為既然你接下來就是要走共照的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4981.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5010.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那那個深藏跟長照這邊那人員的資格都已經不相容的話你們什麼時候可以去做檢討包委員我們就誠如我剛剛說的我們現在目前3.0裡面會把那個長照跟深藏這邊的一個在整個服務資格還有整個這個人員部分我們來做整合但是我要強調中間的一個區別在於長照主要在生活照顧嘛那個各處是社會參與那像譬如說剛剛委員你有提到就是說他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5011.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5028.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
他們的記者會那邊有提到就是說他們可能不願意去幫他做洗澡等等那些那個其實還是屬於長照這邊這並不是屬於各處他要負責的工作這個我還是必須要在這邊強調一下可是人員資格的話也不能落差到太大甚至我同樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5029.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5048.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這樣的學經歷背景跑到另外一個地方的時候就反而事實上是資格不太符合的應該如果生活照顧應該事實上是一樣的那在自立生活方支持的服務底下除了各住以外事實上還有同儕支持員的服務同儕支持員跟服務員同樣支持服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5049.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5076.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
具兩面性他同時上對帳友可以陪伴跟支持服務可是也因為他具有身帳的一個身份而且他領有這個工作的話可以讓他有份收入所以問一下部長說這法推動10年同儕支持員一直是沒有被專業化職業化甚至補助每小時上市230元的服務費而不補助勞健保的費用同儕支持員不視為是勞工你覺得這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5077.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5098.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我想委員提的這樣的一個專業化職業化是一個很正向也應該要這樣做的我們都落實包委員這個確實啦我們會來朝向這個目標這個確實也應該要把它更加去考慮否則它中間如果有一些要出勤的時候受到可能要去考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5099.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5118.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
然後去年從事服務的同儕支持員大概共計208人共計提供服務的時數4471小時可是每人每月平均服務的時數大概只有21.49小時那服務量能非常低比個住還要低那你不認為這一項事上是應該要大力提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5119.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5144.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
量能的服務項目嗎我覺得這應該是不是你們應該接下來所以因為我認為說這一個事實上是一份職業又可以有助於戰友的就業為何勞動條件只給半套所以你趕快去做檢討然後也希望這個的人力用人應該要提升那個量次最後大家就期待你們加速增加身心障礙者社區服務的支援項目還有明確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5145.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5164.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
各處的工作內容是什麼不會被拒絕說我可能這個外出服務就醫我不提供還要加速身心障礙者服務跟長期照顧資源的做整合還有推動我們同儕資源專業化跟職業化以上麻煩我們往生來努力好謝謝部長好謝謝林委員的詢問接下來請陳清輝委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5182.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5208.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好 謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 我們請邱部長委員好部長我們今天要審查的這個身障權法第53條其實很多委員的版本都有共識要加入實際需求者這個當然是很有必要因為生理痛或是我們看不見隱形的不舒服都需要座位所以把它入法本席認為是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5209.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5236.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
之前我看了很多部長接受媒體的訪問媒體有訪問您為什麼要把博愛席可能接受改名為優先席等等您講到的一個理由說你覺得這樣子做可以體現社會的愛與包容讓真正有需要的乘客都可以乘坐衛福部會支持這個改名還有制度調整形成我們一個台灣人的愛與關懷的美好風景但是我聽完你剛那一段的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5237.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5265.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
聽起來好像比較像是博愛因為我特別有去查了博愛的意思博愛的含義是說強調人與人之間的互相關懷友愛還有同舟共濟的精神社會成員之間的團結跟互助反而不是要把它改為優先席所以您對於這個名稱你有沒有什麼想法至今我想譬如說我想委員也 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5267.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5291.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
也是都是到各國去都很有經驗啦也可以看到像日本也是Priority嘛那我想這個是看起來是國際的一個趨勢但是在國際在實務上我們希望剛剛今天你在立法說明的時候講得非常我個人非常感動講得非常清楚那個部分就是這樣子就是因為避免產生一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5292.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5302.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
不必要的困擾所以從Priority Seat這個部分會比較按照實際上的需求不要互相在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5304.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5325.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
引起不必要的爭議真的讓需要者但是不要忘記這樣的一個幫忙這樣的一個體貼還是存有體貼在裡面愛與關懷永遠是我們社會要推動的所以精神不變可是我們實務上讓需要的人很自然的可以得到更多的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5326.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5347.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
等等我會叫出很多世界各國現在的做法等一下跟部長一起討論另外也想知道說現在有兩個版本分別是要不要刪除老弱婦孺作為優先禮讓對象的這個版本也會想要問部長您的立場為何你是想要刪除或是您覺得可以不用刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5354.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5377.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
市長要不要跟委員報告其實今天如果是我們大概在多數委員的建議的版本裡面其實大概如果是他加進了其他有實際需求其實前端原來現行條文的老弱婦孺其實它就是等於是包含就是它是一個有一個歷史性的一個效果那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5378.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5403.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
不管他將來是不是保留其實未來在實際執行面的時候是都會以不管是可見或者是隱形的這些需求者為使用的對象所以等下在討論的時候可以尊重大家的一些討論的方向部長我們先看一下現在我們很多國內國外的做法這個是高鐵的如果我們去查高鐵他在網站上的介紹他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5404.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5425.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
他的這個博愛座是禮讓年長者懷孕還有行動不便的旅客優先入座並且安排獨立的輪椅座位給有身心障礙人士需求那如果說像剛剛司長講的我們真的把這四個字從生權法裡面刪掉您認為高鐵的這些宣傳圖示有需要一起改掉嗎還是保持原來這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5429.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5457.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我想我們如果名字已經大家共識我相信交通部的一個處理就會按照這樣的精神來做整體型所以要刪還是不要刪這些圖示圖示對圖示還有他網站上的解說交通單位是會配合來調整啦這理事的意見OK 非常感謝委員的意見其實我們在國外我們看到大概就是說通常是Priority seat |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5457.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5486.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
Priority那Priority的意思就是說Those who in need只要你有需求者你都可以來做這第一個重點第二個其實在國外有很多其實他們都會名列很多很多的一個類似的圖示其實不限於這三項如果你去巴黎你如果去法蘭克福他們大概會我的印象大概會出現大概五六種但這只是個劣勢劣勢就是說主要當然就是說就是身心障礙者Pregnant |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5487.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5513.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
懷孕者還有這一個比較虛弱的老人但是如果說你有有其他有需求者也都可以所以我個人我們按照各國的經驗我們大概就是說除了名稱改之外Priority Sit英文沒問題吧但我們現在只是改成優先做但是劣勢的部分我們我建議可能要可以增加增加你要增加土對沒錯我們來看下一張來部長我們來看下一張這個是北捷 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5517.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5540.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
北捷我們播一下助理幫忙播一下北捷他會在廣播的時候告訴大家有哪些人是需要使用的旅客禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝好我們從前面開始您好請發揮愛心將座位優先禮讓給需要的旅客謝謝Please give your seat to those in need |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5541.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5542.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以他在解釋他需要的旅客他的圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5556.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5572.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
還有他的Q版其實都有包含你剛想要刪除的老弱婦孺所以基本上剛講的你是說增加這個圖示可是其實還是涵蓋原本的這四個項目嘛因為不得不說他們也是真的需求量會比較高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5573.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5594.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
剛剛次長有提到巴黎 倫敦等等我們就來看其他國家左上是日本民國屋機場的優先席的圖示左下角是韓國地鐵右邊是英國倫敦它其實都涵蓋有進去老弱婦孺但也許它還有增加這個身心障礙者有沒有 它有增加一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5595.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5615.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
尤其在日本這邊還有增加身心障礙者可是原本的老弱婦孺都是被涵蓋進去的所以有需求的人就不僅止於我們原本限定的老弱婦孺這個座位不應該要變成一種情緒勒索或是道德綁架我建議本部是不是考量去做加法而不是去做減法 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5617.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5639.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
因為把舊的東西刪除掉那更去加強宣導實質的需求讓全部人有正確的觀念我覺得是不是把刪掉可以把所有的紛爭都隔除你是真的這樣子覺得嗎或者是我們考慮來用加法再增加擴充的文字然後加強去宣導你覺得怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5640.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5648.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這個我們尊重會員們大家的討論那加法也是一個非常也是看起來有一些先進國家也是這樣在處理好 到時候我們逐條再來討論好嗎好的 好 謝謝那下一個問題這個想必前兩週這個新聞全國都非常的關注因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5661.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5684.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個很久前10名的國人10大死亡已經沒有自殺但到現在呢今年發現說15到64歲的年齡層自殺率相較於112年是全面上升尤其大家又更在意的是像台灣大學中興兒家研究中心有發現說這個針對青少年輕生的比例2021年每10萬人上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5685.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5709.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是4.5人然後上升到2023年每10萬人是7人那台大也有很有名的教授去做一些研究發現說青少年的親生率上升與父母的離婚率增加網路的使用率還有睡眠時間減少這三項有正面的相關就有正相關那同時呢也分析說他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5710.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5724.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
至少原因是非常多元和複雜的我想要知道說你們看到他全面上升15到64歲你們對於各年齡層他的原因的分析為何還有希望提供的解方為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5726.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5750.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
好 謝謝委員關心我想在割了14年我們14年前我們很高興因為我們當時很努力成立自殺防治中心那我也是右翼政防治協會的創始的理事所以我們對這一個部分能夠離開十大死刑室自殺能夠離開人世真的是非常高興那如今 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5752.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5776.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
又進來的話我們當然深切在檢討那因為我們這幾年已經很努力在心理健康支持譬如說在今年我們增加當然是從去年的可能是後半年我們增加了一個心理支持的一個年齡層這個成效都感覺蠻力度都很這蠻力度很高啦也應該有有它的成效我這邊給你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5777.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5802.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
滿意度很高沒錯但是113年1月到113年6月當時你們有意識到自殺率是增加的因此8月1號你們有舉辦了一個活動說要擴大他的年齡層所以我們又把它延伸到45歲這個8月1號的活動我也有去參加我認為我個人對這個支持算是很支持的但是你仔細觀察這個數據你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5804.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5829.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你覺得要擴大人數所以一口氣我們增加了15歲喔可是你的平均月的服務量其實是減少的這個很奇怪你一口氣增加15歲應該是服務量能要增加才對結果你從以前的112年月均服務3000多人到現在最近月均是2189人是不是應該要去深究到底是為什麼因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5831.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5849.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
你剛講15到64歲你應該去分析一些raw data這些高齡者他有沒有跟慢性病有相關嘛他是性別的比例分布是如何等等他有沒有一些這個其他科別的就醫記錄這個都是你從衛福部的database很簡單可以抓出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5850.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5872.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
包委員我們都是醫療人員我們知道我們都是以死因為重要的公共衛生的題材來做相關的研究所以這樣的一個變化當然我們初步了解說像原來在COVID在裡面十大死因裡面當然現在它跳到12那我們在腎臟各方面的疾病糖尿病方面的死亡率降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5873.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5891.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以變成第11個自殺就上線了當然這個絕對要檢討當然這個數目是等一下看市長有沒有這個部分的說明因為這個我們會很努力來做一定是看起來是有增加沒有啦實際上沒有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5894.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5920.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
其實我們要心理健康支持絕對不是只有這樣自殺防治是很複雜的所以我們也有通過在座很多委員當時也幫忙通過了自殺防治法那個部分應該也要去更加的整體性的來落實我覺得我們社會或政府在整體多元化的方面應該我們整體一起來做不是只有靠心理健康支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5921.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5946.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
不过这个部分人事的这个部分特别请代理市长回答一下市长可以简单的讲一下吗跟委员报告我们的这个心理健康支持方案从去年的8月1号开始我们有扩大到我们服务的一个年龄但是除了心理健康师这边推动的这个心理健康支持方案之外其实其他的部会也有在推动心理健康支持方案譬如说劳动部也有针对劳工的部分劳动部做得很不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5947.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5963.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
國防部也有針對他的國軍的部分以及內政部有針對警察同仁的部分所以說有關於這個心理健康支持的方案的話相關的部會也都是跟衛福部一樣的努力我們在不同的一個場域我們都是有持續的來做一個推動那至於說這個有關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5967.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5988.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
原因的部分的話剛剛那個委員有特別提到其實我們可以運用我們現在手上的資料可以去做進一步的分析那包含自殺死亡自殺通報跟我們心理健康支持的方案跟其他資料的這個串聯之後來做分析這個我們新建市也會持續的來做好那之後我會跟你追這個報告這邊也建議因為我也有在媒體上看到司長發言說 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5989.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6005.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
青少年的自殺並非單一的原因所以你們有跟一些網路電腦的同業公會合作加強在臉書Dcard等等使用率高的社群平台去做自殺防治還有心理健康的促進但本席在這邊要提醒你一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6005.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6035.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
就是青少年現在使用AI的比例非常的高他們用AI成為他們的心理支持甚至呢今天的這個很多雜誌都有講到每兩個人當中其中一位的同理心就會比AI還要低所以這是一個網路上實際發生的狀況而這個母親已經提起了訴訟了她因為小孩本來就有這個憂鬱的傾向所以她跟一位AI機器人聊天聊天後呢她比較順著她的意思所以她最後就去執行了這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6036.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6058.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以我是希望衛福部可以去掌握到你對網路平台這樣子的宣導自殺防制可能你要跟著與時俱進加進AI的這個部分現在很多青少年是交了AI的男友或是女友還會甚至在跨年前去跟這些公司提醒說希望他們不要休假他要跟這個網路的男友女友一起跨年好 這個很重要的議題我們一定來演繹怎麼樣來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6064.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6072.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
好那最後是想問一下有三個承諾也是很多人關心的第一就是我們的心理健康支持方案明年會不會繼續會的會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6075.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6100.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
會繼續所以希望你可以根據剛剛的那些數據提供更加彈性或是更多次數的服務再來這個針對通訊的諮商因為後來發現這個青少年他的可敬性也是很重要尤其是在晚上深夜或者是說有些比較內向的他已經很習慣在網路上跟人家互動是不是考慮可以增加這樣子的彈性去研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6102.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6124.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我想只要對人民的健康有幫助的方向我們一定來努力最後我會提醒您要在兩個月內給我一份書面報告因為剛有講青少年輕生有三個原因還有潛在AI可能造成的風險再請您提供一份書面報告並不是只有心理支持方案可以去處理這些議題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6131.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6133.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好 謝謝 接下來請邱政軍委員來做詢問主席好 我們一樣請邱部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6150.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6167.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
委員好部長好部長我請教一下我們衛福部2024年8月7日就已經預告身心障礙權益保障法部分條文修正草案這個部分了那現在召委排審怎麼沒有看到你們的版本呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6171.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6190.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
是卡在行政院嗎?有,在行政院審議已經這麼久了怎麼到現在沒有消息?行政院是在搞罷免沒有控審還是怎麼樣?沒有,因為我想這個法案我剛剛有跟邱委員報告,其實在一兩年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6191.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6215.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
在當召委的時候也是一樣這樣的陣仗,因為我們也請了身心障礙團體的代表,所以老師這樣子我現在就熱切的討論,還是很難達成一些共識是什麼原因?可能有一些爭議的點需要再釐清,這樣才能夠對法案的所以現在是行政院在審還是你們在弄?主管機關是誰?不是你們嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6216.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6224.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們主管機關都是要形成懲定啊他有沒有叫你們再休有啊 已經來回了開過幾次會 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6228.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6248.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個請理事長包委員其實這個部分我想是因為修了十個月了你們來回幾次 開了幾次其實這個因為知識體大因為也十幾年都沒修我們這個應該要用最嚴謹的標準來進行你去年公告匯集然後到現在這麼久了你現在叫公民參與你現在公開了沒有 你重新有公開嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6255.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6268.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
程序我說你重修啊你在修這個部分你有公開嗎我們那個在送行政費錢我們都有那個那個現在不是退回來嗎現在不是還要還要再審還要再協調嗎我們也跟內容內容有有有提出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6269.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6287.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
有啊 我們當然提給行政院那邊那現在目前就是說也廣泛在各界像委員今天有很多委員也提到像這個第五十條啦這一個生活有關於個人助理啦還有這一個是你們在寫嗎 有退回來你們寫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6290.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6316.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
沒有 我們現在就是會跟各界嘛跟各界來廣泛再來智商那我想這個裡面確實還有很多不同的意見那我想也要有必要跟大家來做最廣泛的一個智商我想這個委員會我知道非常關心那我想大家也都非常非常希望能夠這個法能夠修得更好與時俱進所以我們現在目前這個部分沒有 我要提醒你們啦我們身心障礙團體要的是自立生活 合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6317.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6336.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
那通路設計這個聲音障礙團體從2017年的CRPD第一次在國際審查就講到現在了這些不是今年才有的需求為什麼還要那麼久呢我們去年衛福部的八月的版本這三件核心訴求我看也沒有寫得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6337.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6352.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那現在行政院現在說要大修我們是真的在修還是準備在拖延包委員我們是真的在修我們現在目前裡面我想包委員我們為了這個修法再從去年開始所以協調還沒結束就對了你們現在協調還沒結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6356.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6385.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們現在目前還要跟那個還要跟各界還要做那個廣泛的一個的一個諮商已經在已經在是卡在行政院還是就是做協調的部分我們現在目前都在跟跟社會各界說尋求最大可能的共識我想這個也是我想我知道委員對於這個部分非常關心那我們希望能夠修得更好因為這裡面確實像剛剛委員剛剛說的有關合理調整還有像有關反歧視還有像有關於這一個對啦你大修啊不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6386.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6402.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
要趕快不是不送案的理由如果行政院真的要大新我覺得他應該按照行政程序應該是提出修正意見表還有會診會議記錄回送主管機關修正嘛對不對是我們現在目前也確實就是有相關的程序都在進行當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6403.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6429.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這十個月因為我感覺是空窗期讓人家覺得你們沒在動也沒有在送新的版本我們在行政院那邊有那個聲音障礙者權益保障法委員會然後其實也有各式各樣的一個公聽會還有我們其實我們也舉辦了很多很多的公民共識會議來跟各聲音障礙團體我也親自去那邊出席來廣泛爭取各方的意見然後其實自立生活的人協會他也來部裡面拜訪我兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6434.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6455.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
今天審查的身心障礙權益保障法裡面有34個委員提案那其中大概我們就第53條我們跟幾位立委提案的不愛做乘坐對象的文字修正不愛做或改成優先席那我們衛福部當時是表示支持的對不對那其他的都要別的部門的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6456.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6473.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
身心障礙者的權益不只是座位的問題啦社會主管機關我覺得你們不能應該都要別人來回答你們角色是負責整合啦是負責整合不要變成首發單位好不好我想盡快啦好不好長安什麼時候可以看到這個預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6478.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6506.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
原來的意思是整個法已經預告然後也送到行政院再審你們還在協商嘛對不對你協商的結果什麼時候出來這個部分我們當然會會盡快一個月兩個月因為這個不愛做反而這個會比較有共識有共識的可以他不只是不愛做嘛對不對那我現在講的是這個法你什麼時候大概還要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6508.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6515.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
才可以弄出來?一個月?兩個月?三個月?這個...可能我們會跟行政院盡量來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來...來... |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6524.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6544.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們把過去這段時間的努力寫報告給委員好了那部長我再請教80歲以上請外籍看護免巴士量表的這個部分勞動部洪森案部長說難度相當高要跨部會整合那我想請教部長需要衛福部配合的有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6547.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6559.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
非常感謝委員 其實跟委員報告我們為了這個事情 部長特別指定我跟勞動部的一位次長我們三位次長 我們到目前為止已經開了四次會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6567.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6590.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我現在就講說他要你們配合的 要修正的朋友 主要大概就是說我們有關於有關於這一個八四兩表他如果到時候他如果免評那可是這裡面可能還是有一些相關的一些部分我們會委託各地方政府他有一個整個照管中心照管中心這邊來做這個協助他項目開了很多嗎 他配合的有哪些 他要你們配合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6591.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6615.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們這邊主要大概就是 那你完成了多少好了包委我們現在目前最主要就是說資訊系統的一個借接然後到時候就是說有的案件有案件進來的話我也這邊要非常感謝勞動部這邊他們這邊在人力的部分給我們我現在就是就責任就是說他現在你的部分我要問你說我們衛福部現在自己已經跟他該你們處理的你們完成了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6616.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6632.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我們現在目前就是已經根據這一個雙次長會議我們現在目前來督導然後勞動部就是有關於發展署這邊還有我們這邊因為7月底就要實施了所以我要問的是如果你們完成了所以衛福部就會在這個未來如果出問題當然責任就是在勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6638.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6653.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
對不對你們到時候不要互踢皮球我希望你們把你們自己該做的事情趕快完成當然當然把這個責任釐清不要說到時候是你們在你們在背這個黑鍋不會啦我們兩部都是大家都同力合作我想那個大家都一體都希望大家趕快合作啦因為時間也不多是是是沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6655.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6677.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那另外最後一個我在請教部長這個2024年全台有大概4,062人自殺死亡那自殺重登十大死因的榜單那根據WHO跟台灣醫學研究資料每完成一次自殺背後平均大概有10到20次的自殺未遂所以也就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6678.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6695.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
去推算去年台灣大概有6萬到8萬人次去做這個自殺的這個動作那這幾年都是慢慢的在增加那這麼龐大的潛在的高風險族群我們政府目前用什麼樣的方式追蹤或是輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6697.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6725.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我想早期發這個我剛剛有報告過這個自殺的方式必須要多元化那自殺之前基本上很有憂鬱的人都很多所以我們我們有沒有實時介入有沒有去關心我們推動的自殺防治計畫裡面這些都有在做那這幾個學會也很努力在進行那為什麼今年是因為過去把COVID原來在裡面跳出實名以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6726.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6741.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
變成第十一名的自殺我們現在不講排名啦不講排名但是他這個數字是確實存在的對吧那為什麼我們的數字沒辦法往下降這才是重點不是他排名第幾名的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6743.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6761.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
對 我想這個是整個不管是醫學界社會界的一個共同要努力的問題部長你接下來你認為面對這樣的數字一直攀高那你的態度是什麼我覺得這個要結合各部會各相關部會不管是從學校 職場還有社會對這個相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6768.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6789.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
憂鬱症方面的看待等等的整體來改善還有就是說早期的detect 早期的偵訪也很重要我們過去在10年前為什麼要退出其實我們在我們訓練很多自殺的守門員在譬如說在那個7-11只要有一個人進來現在也不是烤肉的季節齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6790.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6818.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那個為什麼來買碳這個對啦這個我跟你講部長這個當然會去自殺他當然有很多很多的原因那當然我們能夠把這個球接住當然是就能拯救一個家庭我們一定要接住每一個球所以我的意思是說政府之前做的這些東西顯然是不夠的顯然是不夠的或者是沒有落實那如果沒有落實我們怎麼樣讓它落實改進那麼如果做得不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6818.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6820.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們是不是要提出新的辦法來解決這個問題是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6823.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6848.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這個如果是舊問題我們要提出更好的辦法新的問題我們要提出具體的一個辦法來解決對啦 全端的防禦跟具體的心理衛生的輔導介入我覺得非常有必要啦當然我希望這個部裡面能夠認真看待這個事情非常非常認真然後呢 盡快的把這個新的措施把它擬定這樣好不好好的 謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6852.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6863.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那委員會再跟報告我們待蘇軍演招的宣達結束之後才休息 再休息那接下來請王育民委員來做宣達好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長來 請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6879.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6900.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
今天要跟你討論有關於我們現在已經邁向超高齡的社會現在住宿型機構的量能是不是足夠的問題根據長期照顧產學媒合平台統計現在1700多家長照機構提供住宿型服務床數大概是10萬多張 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6901.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6931.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
但是呢還短缺了一萬三千張的這樣的一個床這個是根據他們統計這樣子提出來的甚至有一些要排有些好一點的其實要排隊排很久所以針對這種住宿型機構量能不足的一個問題這個我要就教部長因為其實你可以看到這個家庭照顧關懷總會他們在113年底也做了一個調查未來的老人 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6931.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6951.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
他不見得都是希望家人或親友照顧在他希望理想型的這邊你看一下這個圖表藍色的這個未來其實有三成的這些老人家他是希望進到住宿型的機構如果這個機構是好的話相較於現在實際上入住比例是14% |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6952.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6981.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
它其實增加了將近16%所以面對未來的這個選擇它對於機構的選擇可能更高那我們的量可能要更多那這一部分不足的部分這個會不會要怎麼樣來因應好 謝謝委員的指教我想人民的需求就是政府需要做的事情做不到的我們一定都在努力那如果是這樣謝謝委員提供這個重要的資料我想我們都會密切的來注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6982.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6997.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
希望想要在家裡就好好在家裡照顧如果在機構這當然有更多複雜的裡面做調查其實因為我過去在東京大學就 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6998.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7012.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
在做論文就是做這一方面如果你再問一下他真正的心願到底要在家裡或在機構如果我人力夠的話他們就不一樣喔所以這個部分未來我們會再更精細的來了解但是anyway不管是在家裡在機構都要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7013.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7027.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
是那我今天就要跟你討論的就是說我們現在住宿型機構量能不足的問題跟他的困境除了未來我們已經可以預見他的需求是會增加之外另外一個就是在人力的機構裡面的工作人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7028.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7052.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
他的人力可不可以增加的部分那我們可以看到現在在這個機構裡面你如果看到歷年這6年來的統計在機構裡面的工作人員的人數他都沒有成長甚至你看112年到113年他還微幅的下降所以在這一些住宿型機構裡面他的工作人員的缺工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7053.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7082.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
其實也是他們在現場現在看到的那你如果未來還希望他提高量能你根本就沒有人就沒有人就不會開出量所以這個部分你們現在打算怎麼做去協助這些機構其實這個也就是我們一直在努力的那長照3.0也會針對一個機構式的一個照護給他更多的量能跟更努力那至於現在怎麼努力具體的這個部分請理事理事長幫我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7084.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7095.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
人力的部分你要怎麼去補報告委員我想陳路委員剛剛所說的這張圖那我們現在目前的一個做法現在目前就是說我們會引進外籍中階勞動力因為最主要就是在機構這邊其實特別是有關於這個夜間 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7098.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7113.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為要輪班那老實說我們本國的居扶員老實說對這個部分是有一些就是大家比較不喜歡所以越建的部分我們現在目前就是從國外其實就是從越南 新南向國家還有像這一個印尼等等引進這一個橋外生 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7115.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7144.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
不是 引進他們的這個大概18歲然後你來這邊念二技之後呢你如果說在台灣你如果說能夠服務六年以上的話那你甚至還可以取得Permanent State就是那個擁有居留權讓他們有一個誘因這是第一點另外第二點就是說中階勞動力他的薪資也比一般回來的更高一點好 我想這個對於我們希望能夠用這個部分來那這一部分你們有沒有預估過你們希望從這一塊補充到的人力有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7144.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7151.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
報告委員我們在去年已經在府營科技大學那邊我們現在先設了本來是要開兩班現在目前一班那今年我們現在目前在慈濟還有這個紅光等等我們現在目前也新開了我們未來會來強化還有透過跟外交部還有跟勞動部這邊來合作趕快來從這一個我希望這一塊你們還是要持續去改善以你剛剛講的學校開一班兩班這個了不起就100個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7173.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7177.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對沒錯100個人在扣掉有意願從事的就幾十個沒錯幾十個跟未來這一個人力的需求恐怕那個落差還是是大的沒錯所以這一塊我是提早預警希望你們要儘早去準備光是你們現在設定的這樣的一個方案恐怕還是不足的對未來的這個量能的需求還是不足的接下來我要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7195.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7212.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你們看到的是現在的你們說已經升級到長照3.0那到底挹注在這個機構方面的資源你們有沒有真的3.0有沒有進一步去提升因為現在其實我知道衛福部花了很大的心力是在做社區式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7213.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7228.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這個居家室的但是在機構是這一方面呢你們過去一直都是比較是交給這個機構自行來營運負責從你的這個預算分配可以看得到你看你114年你在住宿型的機構的資源部件計畫只佔你總體經費的4.389%而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7234.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7255.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
比例其實非常的低那你後來有增加就是住宿型機構每個月補助一萬你這個部分呢佔了11.593%所以你就整體的你一年像114年你700多億當中你挹注在這種住宿型的機構的資源部件坦白講是偏低的在比例上是偏低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7255.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7282.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為你政策的關係但是我剛剛前面已經講了如果未來其實有些老人家他的選擇不見得都是在家裡他未來希望入住到機構你怎麼樣去提升這一些住宿型機構的品質補充他的人力讓他有足夠的量能我覺得這個就是整個衛福部你應該要看到未來的趨勢你的整體的資源也要去做一些合理的調整跟分布 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7283.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7309.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為現在有一些住宿型機構的負責人這個在外面開會他們就說政府對我們其實是沒有補助的就是政府現在對於機構其實是沒有實質提供很多的協助跟幫忙那所以這個未來在你的政策裡面是不是也應該去適時做一些調整無論是居家 無論是社區 無論是住宿型的機構都應該衛福部在整體政策上面都應該提供足夠的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7311.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7326.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我非常同意委員的指導,尤其是我們現在目前就是特別在機構式的部分一直在跟他加強,也是長照3.0的一個重點之一。 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7326.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7351.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那過去幾年來的確我們無可否認在居家在社區方面先生耕那接下來把希望啟動的社區的資源來互相自助人彼此組織但是總是要需要機構這個部分最後還是需要機構來做最後的補強那這個部分我想就是我們未來的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7352.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7374.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
你不曉得理事有沒有要補充 簡單補充一下我那個三點補充第一個就是說就是供給我們現在這個機構的部分其實主要的供給面跟需求面需求面的部分現在目前就像陳委員剛剛說一個月一個月一萬第二個供給面的部分其實我們現在對於機構主要是他的品質提升包括他感染管控還有如果說你久任的話我們這邊其實長照基金這邊也會來補助來強化他們的這個造福員他們的這個留任意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7380.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7384.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那我想對於機構的部分我們還有另外還有這個有關於這個智慧輔具的補助的部分我們現在目前也都在3.0這邊也會來推動因為其實輔具你把它引進之後對於造輔員他的這個單位生產力還有品質也都會有很大的一個幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7398.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7425.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我是希望你們這一塊要持續去強化然後最後我要講的就是如果你3.0然後你很多還要繼續往上加服務還要增加然後你的支持要增加我必須坦白告訴衛福部你的錢是不夠的你在114年你的基金來源跟基金用途其實已經呈現了短處的一個情況那其實很多專家學者已經預估過以台灣現在我們的高齡化的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7428.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7453.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
你的長照基金每年的支出規模其實1000億了這個你們應該要知道如果你要做到好的話就讓大家都有感覺得有受到支持跟幫助其實應該是1000億但是你可以看到你現在你的所有長照的基金來源他上上下下其實大概都達不到千億的規模你114年你還突然大幅下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7454.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7481.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那今年看起來這個房地產狀況也不會很好這個政府的打房有某部分的成效所以你的這個基金將來會不足以支應你的開支那這一塊這個我希望衛福部還是要用一個比較長遠的眼光來看待未來整個長照的體系就是你除了長照基金之外未來保險到底要不要開辦要不要由更多的人民共同進來分攤那這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7483.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7486.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我覺得你們不要把話說死了說絕對不開辦保險我覺得也蠻危險的因為未來的這個挑戰很大如果日本做不到我很難想像台灣我們為什麼可以做得到那所以這一塊我覺得你們現在是量入為出就是有在控那個經費的支出因為也知道這個經費有 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7505.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7526.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
基金來源也不是說水龍頭一打開遠遠不絕所以現在以量入為初的模式我看到的是還有一些服務其實還沒有到位一些該補助的其實還沒有所以這一塊我請部長你回去之後你們還是要好好的演繹就是說這個長照議題我們以後都會遇到了那所以在這個狀況底下怎麼樣讓它是可長可久穩健的一個體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7530.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7543.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我覺得這個要拋開一些框架就是真的好好來研議怎麼做是最好的好不好好的好的好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王以為謝謝部長次長來繼續我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7565.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7568.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
委員好 部長好 稍等一下PowerPoint |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7572.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7598.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
部長這個障礙團體其實曾經跟我反映過出門像出國吃飯像打仗那我想這兩句話是顯示障礙者在台灣生存的生活的困難那也更有重度障礙者例如說為了申請自立生活核定時數不足的問題而打贏行政訴訟的這個欲解因為政府核定給他的時數根本不足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7599.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7621.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
所以像玉姐這樣的障礙者根本不是在過生活而是連生存啊都很辛苦很困難所以我想部長你知道連生存都有困難是什麼感覺嗎部長根據我們聯合國的身心障礙者的權利公約CRPD的第19條B款是這個等第5號的一般性意見書 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7622.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7646.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
個人協助是障礙者自立生活與社區融入的重要條件那為了讓身心障礙者能夠使用各種居家住所及其他的社區支持的服務包含必要的個人協助以及支持以支持社區生活跟融入避免跟社區隔離其實許多國家有不同的立法形式有些是定立專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7647.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7672.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那有些在障礙者相關的法律中列為專章那有些可能是專條但是我國這項制度僅是以授權命令訂定的子辦法那在法律層層級跟這個規範的密度上都相對落後部長我們既然自稱是一個很注重人權的人權大國難道我們不該至少以專章或專條的形式來符合CRPD嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7675.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7695.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我想謝謝委員的指教回應身心障礙這裡有各國的比較自立生活及融入社區的精神這個的確是非常需要而且也是我們在努力的目標我們現行的個人助理的實施其實是有依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7696.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7722.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我們身心者自立生活目標跟自立生活計畫在提供啦我大概都猜到你的講法啦那部長沒關係國際上已經有早已經這個邁向去機構化嘛對不對社會主流是回歸社區融入社區要促成自立生活需要很多的制度的配合那例如什麼無障礙同用設計等等但是個人協助制度其實是其中最關鍵的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7723.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7733.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那跨國的研究也已經證實所以個人助理立法不僅是影響社會的平等更攸關障礙者的健康跟福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7734.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7758.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以研究也顯示社會平等對於這個障礙者的健康福祉有正面影響但這種效果只存在於有個人助理立法的國家然而今天我們的報告裡面的第12頁卻說這個委員提案的專章或者是專條內容多屬於執行面的規定建議無需納入本法請問部長這是否代表衛福部反對這項立法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7761.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7777.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們其實是那個一個目標我們可以用多元性或者是其他的方式來達到那可能在最沒有爭議的情況之下為了這個像您提的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7780.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7796.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
其實在兩年前也同樣 我當召委的時候就是聯繫可能兩天後 大家討論到各方的意見所以那件事情連Priority Shed都停下來所以我想怎麼樣取得大家的共識 我們完全是站在 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7798.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7818.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
達到這個身心障礙權力公約的目標來努力但是這過程怎麼樣大家能夠接受我們雖然不是這個聯合國的會員國但是透過這個施行法將國際公約納入我們台灣的法制其實政府也應該遵守相關的義務那其實2017年和2022年的時候我們兩度邀請了國際審查委員來台審查這個CRPD的執行情況那審查委員也兩度 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7826.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7843.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
針對個人助理的制度提出改進建議喔那然而從2017年到我們2025年喔除了2023年的時候將個人助理的時薪從200元提升到250元以外我國好像並沒有其他明顯的進展那從數據上來看呢我們全國 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7846.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7872.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
各住的人數從2022年的625人到2023年雖然增加至大概748人但去年又下降到733人顯現是沒有大幅的增長所以這說明單純只是提高時薪並不足以吸引人投入各住的工作所以既然如此我們是不是應該比照長照制度以專法或專章的方式來建立完整的個人助理制度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7874.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7899.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
再者部長我想你最清楚你剛剛講了你最清楚這個這件事情來龍去脈但是其實各障礙團體也在前年就達成共識這個從帳蒙在2023年的9月發出支持修法也支持個人各駐入法的這個公告就可以看出來不是嗎所以你剛剛說有很多的這個不同的意見我想這個部分大家應該是已經有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7901.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7929.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以最後部長你知道你們民進黨不分區排名第18位的這個重度身障者陳俊漢律師生前最關心的也是這個條文嗎那上一屆其實已經延宕修法那這一屆初期呢我們可以看到我們前行政院長陳建仁也承諾說要在去年五月五月前提出生權法的修法版本但是現在已經又過了一年半了請問行政院的版本到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7930.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7952.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那今天送來的報告是否要否定這個你們的同仁同志陳俊安律師的遺願衛福部真的要無視我們國際的趨勢漠視障礙團體的需求甚至背離自己的同志嗎所以部長這個議題啊因為時間有限我等一下還要放個影片這一題是關係到障礙者的生存不只是這個生活品質的問題讓每個人都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7954.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7981.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
尊嚴的活著是我們國家最基本對他們的義務也是基本的人權那接下來我要放一個影片是獲得當事人同意的訪談紀錄喔是我們辦公室同仁去訪問的這是重度障礙者我剛剛前面提到御解的故事喔所以我希望看完這個喔部長要發揮人機幾機的精神然後希望部長不要忘記衛福部對於全國人民福祉跟維護基本人權的權責的所在 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7981.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7996.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好,那請大家看一下這段影片,就是郁姐的影片。好,謝謝。林俊,剛才給你的時數,就您目前的狀況,您覺得夠嗎?到目前政府合格給我的時數,我一定可以使用的時數是8個小時,早上2個小時,大夜是6小時。 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7997.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8018.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
一共8小时我觉得实处是非常不足的用上我觉得最大的困扰是说如果是这样使用的话大页有但是小页没有的话我必须有五六个钟头六个钟头我都没有人力的资源可能对我的生活造成困扰我可能会就是歪倒或者是我身体的功能性慢慢的萎缩或者配化我就支持不了长时住的没有人力的状况之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8019.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8041.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那我必须可能还是要有人力协助我但是这样不会动用到两个服务单位一个是警方的警力还有救护车来协助我把我扶起来就是说能够摆位好让我坐定位那我觉得我是不能用这两个资源来协助我因为他们很辛苦我是他们职场范围之内但是因为我没有人力因为这时数实在不够的话情况之下不得已 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8041.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8066.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
被迫了才動用到警官的警慮跟支付車的協助但是這個長此以往對於大家都造成困擾用對於社會資源也不能是這樣的使用這是不合理的一個情況所以可能政府在這方面也要考慮到這是重度障礙者的一個使用的時間人力資源的安配不能多增加一些時間性跟我的人力資源的話可以提供我的生活照顧政府資源的措施才會讓社會落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8068.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8091.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
理论上政府应该是要把这个资源去做一个公平的分配才能达出一个平衡因为我想如果受伤的时间可能针对于重新评估但是这个要针对于需求来评估而不是说一天以8个小时这就是合可给我的一个实书的一个认定但是我觉得这个对我来说没有针对真正的我来做需求评估那我需求就是说如果夜间有再多3个小时 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8091.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8106.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
到4個小時我就可以很好的生活狀態就至少不用再去動用警察跟救護車這兩個單位實在是太辛苦他們了他們不是職長範圍之內的我覺得針對於需求上可以讓政府知道我們重度障礙者能夠有 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8106.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8123.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
他們的一個需求那如果像我這邊比如說一三五我能夠有大夜班二十六日我就沒有我一天可以睡覺一天不要睡覺這個不是我所期待的因為其實健康的人每天都要睡眠所以一天可能至少要八個小時沒有八個小時要六個小時可是如果小夜也沒有大夜也沒有可是要經過這麼多時間的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8125.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8143.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
在我生活上非常有困難就是連睡覺這樣的一個基本的生理需求都是一種奢求了對一個奢求了我晚上這樣撐不了那麼久啊我如果這個姿勢如果撐的話手會麻會痠就你之前就是一三五有特助晚上大夜然後二四六就沒了就是我們剛才講的就是一天八小時的狀況稍微再低補一些時間這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8144.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8163.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那孟小夜前街上你看六個小時這六個小時很困難就是說趙復原是五點開到晚上十一點才有人進來這幾個小時當中如果我還是這樣撐著撐不了多久那我如果倒了會怎樣我會不會也不才能夠請一個救護車或警方自己解決我趕快把我扶起來因為就是讓我很困難的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8165.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8181.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所以他們在需求評估上面這段也沒有去落實就是針對每一個障礙者他們真正的需求是什麼像你的個案就是很清楚就是你明明有這個需求但是他們就只願意給一天半小時一天半小時對啊 那就不叫需求評估啦那就是定額感我們總計大概一天至少要14個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8182.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8200.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
比如说如果早上两个小时因为早上两个小时是我的空间时感对外的联系会很重要比如说早上关部门啊不管是社会履历 卫生局员 操造员那个人比如说沿路督导 沿路造福员比如说他请假 有没有人带班这也是我要联系的 对不对我身边有人说 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8200.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8223.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
跟我讲我下个礼拜三要请假可是我要预先跟督导预约在这边实践代班有时候督导也很忙所以那不可能晚上联系晚上我也没这个时间联系公部门很多不单位白天都在上班我如果跟社会局联络跟医院联络现在个人助理医院承揽我如果跟督导说督导我这个礼拜几我的各组 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8223.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8247.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
他要請假那我有沒有人可以來做代班這個我都要聯繫這個兩個小時的黃金時段那我找這個電話一定要有人所以這個不能少然後但是晚上的時間就是六個小時那小夜班又沒有了如果是以六個小時小夜班就沒有了所以世界上不足啊嚴重的不足可是針對需求好像他沒有針對真實的我來做安排預算有限都是用這一句話沒辦法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8247.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8277.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
这个我们来努力预算有限但是要精准的分配把它分配到有需要的中群上面这个就是比较困难的我还是希望有个度啊那赵福元是就是已经时间性了已经在这边用项目制了现在觉得个度很像长到1.0的一个服务我就觉得好温馨还是时数不够还是时数不够然后人数可能就是那个个度的目前能力还是不够还是不够对对对这个我们还要再努力因为时间性了时间后来时数增加能力可以再多配置对还是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8280.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8306.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
部長就是給你看這影片就是希望這個我們為政者是明知所欲藏在我心你要看到他真實的需求不是用很多的理由或者是說時間要演繹在更多的共識來拖延我覺得這個就是希望部長可以看到如果你有需要的話我這影片再提供給你希望你們可以就是真正理解到他們的需求然後盡速的解決好不好好 非常謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8309.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8312.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那個李次輝回應一下吧我後面講三點啦非常感謝委員的關心但是玉潔那個小姐我跟洪森漢之前洪委員我已經去新莊看過他兩次我們會弄一個示範方案在第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8327.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8330.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
市長剛剛他裡面有講到這個長照部分算是項目制嘛那他各住有很多東西是他真的需要他個人的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8349.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8364.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
譬如說你說這個長照制度他來可能洗頭洗完頭就其他事不能做吃完飯其他事不能做那他還是需要有各住的部分所以我想我後面這個我是不太能接受但你第一點說有一個這個事辦方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8364.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8384.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這可能要拜託呂次 你看這個究竟要怎麼處理我們已經跟那個郁潔小姐 已經跟她在弄這個示範方案那現在的狀況就是 跟新北市政府我們共同合作對 那希望說這個東西 因為不只是郁潔一個人是重度障礙者所以拜託這個我們部長和次長可以持續的努力謝謝 一起加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8388.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8409.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
好,謝謝廖蔣委員的詢問,要請蘇趙耀之,還是要提醒衛福部今天很多我已經提出各處的問題,還有自治生活的問題,剛剛這個影片是還有可以申請到8小時就我的理解資料裡面,平均到8小時幾乎其為,應該是平均是低於8小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8411.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8436.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我相信應不應該很清楚啦所以我是覺得我們不要再有這種執行上的應該沒有自然燃省的問題啦但是不要有評估障礙核可障礙執行障礙的問題這個等一下應該還有其他委員會討論到那最主要我還是希望今天委員會可以回應到這些聲音障礙者朋友在今天開記者會事實上的一些內容這個內容是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8437.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8443.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
衛福部有相關的一些盲點,到現在還沒有做處理來,請蘇召委謝謝主席,我請部長跟次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8464.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8490.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
今天這簡單要用兩條而已嘛第一條就是平健制度的老人福利法48條另外一個是實境障礙者保障法53條就是不愛做早上聽我很詳細的聽每一位委員部長本身也當過召委都知道我先問你老了你會想住安養院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8492.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8513.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
市長你有想要大嗎?我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大我自己想要大 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8521.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8539.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
日本跟我們比較貼切,所以日本這個制度比較貼切,那北歐那邊,那是看鬆的而已,因為那是要踏太多的。我跟部長講,我們看了日本,名古屋到處看,也跟他們詳細討論, |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8543.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8569.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
現在日本的安養院像我們去看八王子區啦看哪裡齁有其中一家就是差不多差不多來得蠻溫馨的啦硬體設備也不錯他們的私人房他們借物保險在我看的時候就已經一年借物保險的費用就十兆日幣十兆日幣喔這核台幣也這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8571.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8597.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那日本政府挨挨救啊從安倍的時代就想把介護保險跟醫療保險把它mix在一起結果搞到現在好像也沒有,還是分開吼那是怎樣?你覺得有什麼原因?因為兩個姓氏不一樣嘛那他們的四人房,四人房的差不多我看那間是他的床位有370幾床然後有一個醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8599.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8625.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
有一個醫師喔 退休的醫師就來那邊當院民甚至說要當住院的醫生那他住不用錢 還可以拿一點薪水 要退一萬嘛那裡面的護理師也是一樣退休之後就住在那邊當院民 要順便當護理師我覺得這個很好 這個老的 照顧更老的我們現在就是在推這個嘛 儲存時數等等 都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8629.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8641.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
這裏的護理師老,就直接做,做到不做,我覺得這樣很好,我們大陸可能搞不好會這樣啦,我也要把我們屏東那裏的護理師,或是醫生、衛生所退休,我說你們要怎麼辦?公共醫師會遵守H65,所以退休,隔天就在我們法人上班了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8650.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8677.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那護理師也是一樣的退休之後就在那邊有的當志工有的當那個在廠商那邊做我覺得不然的話你找不到人啊所以不然這個是可以考量的那他們的四人房一年的一個月差不多合台幣差不多三萬六三萬七差不多啊 差不多啊那兩人房差不多五萬二左右我都講台幣喔那單人房 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8679.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8706.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
7萬多塊那政府付的差不多3萬多塊這樣如果去看歐洲不可能的事情我跟你講喔赫爾辛基在芬蘭啊我們去看還有去那個那個瑞典瑞典首都那個叫什麼斯德哥摩你知道那個安養院安養院喔他一個月政府付給那個業者一個月一個人付差不多24萬台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8709.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8723.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
一個月喔然後如果是精神科的熱心後面處理是這樣一個月付三十五萬台幣給吼 我說我們的安養機構如果一個月付二十五萬我大家都叫爸爸大家都這樣吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8726.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8744.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
不可能我們付不起嘛,因為所得稅60%所得稅所以我們要去學費,那個是亂搞啦,不要講那個那現在回到日本這邊他的住宿機構提供的房數也差不多三成而已那間三百多層的安養機構外面白堆買一百,八百多 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8755.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8776.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
死一個補一個,死一個補一個所以人家老人,我在民國有看,都在家比較多因為冬天他們要冷,那他們的日本人的習性跟我們台灣人又不太一樣台灣人的嘻嘻嘩嘩,老人說我唱歌跳舞,我們可以唱什麼,可不可以不失智啊,對不對?那不是啊,都一口吞吞大嘴,看電視死在家裡面,五天,沒人知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8781.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8802.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以他們的社工雜貨都常常在客廳而已,他們都外面不會出來,所以他們的時薪可能跟沒有一樣所以長壽,然後又不喜歡出來,又天氣又冷所以我們台灣這個是蠻適合的,我們老人會要叫他們出來啊,我覺得那個都非常好但是呢,我們的長照機構,大陸人第一次一個月補六千、八千、補一萬嘛,一萬,現在一萬嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8807.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8831.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
要一個要三萬多塊你補一萬所以你們的費用是遠遠不足啦所以坦白說王一鳴在說你現在那個規模是太少了啦所以如果長照保險在第八屆我們我跟那個劉建國王一鳴我們都努力過但是那個時候有反對所以那個推不過那現在應該如果他的規模越來越長到3.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8834.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8849.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
規模越大事實上是要考量今天這個老人福利法這個評鑑制度因為很多人陳情我想每個人都談過了我也在開過協調會醫院評鑑以前也是優等特優、優等、合格、不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8857.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8868.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
是對嘛不然就改成合格不合格這樣這樣比較簡單啦是是是你常常在這裡有時候要吃餅乾又又等那個是以前啦那個改 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8871.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8898.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
該換 護理事項的評鑑也是用合格不合格還是兩套標準現在是怎樣 市長感受一下那位委員報告 我也知道現在大家都覺得說這樣一國多製 我也委員報告所以我們現在提出來就是說我們現在就是全部一致就把它區分成合格跟不合格我們就不區分什麼甲乙丙丁我們就是在這個部分我們來來朝這個方 我們就是確定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8898.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8899.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 確定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8920.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8928.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這以前我們在布衛生,我們是10%一個車廂裡面10%,現在不然又提高到20%15%喔?我每天在坐高鐵,我每天通勤那個高鐵剛才沒人坐,沒有我做的東西沒人坐我每天拍攝就去坐所以有時候年輕人坐在裡面,老的來,他老不要老,要幫忙怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8946.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8964.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
常常看到糾紛,所以你現在該做什麼?Priority Seat,優先洗優先洗,就是說反應的什麼都可以嘛就是說有需要的啦,按照有需要的有的人表面上看好其實他是生病的啦,會有慢性病的 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8968.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8992.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
主席不要煩惱,今天這兩條簡單啦其他的國陸國屬要親也有什麼請助理請什麼,那比較可憐啦那要花錢啦,市長沒有,那要花很多錢我們會站在人民的需求上為最高點然後整個國家的一個財政...你現在住在那個機構安養的,現在有10萬床 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8995.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9000.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那十萬床如果一個月補一萬塊,現在如果叫你補兩萬塊,你就倒了就幾十億了,一百億就倒了所以我們要量力而為啦好,最後一個問題我要問你,那個失智現在這兩天有夠嚴重,我自己的表姐、三個,很多都一直下去現在65歲,醫生失智的說有35萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9021.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9040.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
65%是PRECINE、DEMENTIA那超過了,你覺得?我65%就對了15%?量於你來回答,你精神科量於精神科醫師我們早期15%,所以委員關心的是失智症的新藥液體 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9041.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9049.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
65歲以上比較Dementia那65歲以下Prescina我講的這樣沒錯吧Prescina有多少人這裡35萬 這裡呢跟65歲以上比起來大概15-20%以台灣的數據所以就是35萬的話就乘以15-20%所以早發性的差不多也有七八萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9068.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9073.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那是很多那你現在這個藥用打的開始打了這個藥是用每個禮拜打還是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9077.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9104.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
跟委員報告這個藥在美國是去年7月才上市那目前是這個我都在做精準的評估那台灣大概是今天在亞東醫院會開打還是用自費來做那它是需要在市製證的非常早期這是第一個條件第二個條件是說它的那個Apple E4必須要陰性因為如果是Apple E陽性的話它比較容易腦水腫那第三個部分是財務評估我們時事處長已經對外講了所以這個部分要啟動這個HTA來做評估那是每個月打一次還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9105.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9126.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
目前有兩個藥提出申請因為我不能透露是哪個藥那其中一種藥是每個月打那後續還要追蹤MRI看他那個Amyloid的這個Plague他有沒有清楚就是那個類蛋白的這個堆積有沒有清楚以上沒有清楚所以有的一個月打一次有的是打一次動一天的藥有兩週的有一個月的但是因為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9135.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9147.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
因為我不能透露是哪一個有申請 抱歉沒關係啦 我們人苦事人要做我覺得我在看我們這些親戚還有我們看到這個林院長林院長第八屆的時候站在那邊被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9149.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9155.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我就看他比較內向,跟他很熟,你也很認識林智英我更認識,我也認識,林智英就比較厲害林昊義是點柱柱,所以我覺得內向的人精神跟內向的人比較會對,點柱柱的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9167.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9194.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
每天花謝罵人的我看待會兒目前的研究人格特質跟失智症的發生比較沒有關係跟基因跟環境後天生活習慣關係性比較大以上補充所以是類蛋白的堆積AMLOID的堆積在涅涅的地方是不是目前兩個學理論一個是AMLOID的堆積就類蛋白另外一個是Tau protein的堆積那目前兩個理論都有在用兩個都有藥物研發以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9194.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9222.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以你這個藥是要清除那個類蛋白在腦部的堆積,現在是這樣嗎?是所以,好,那要做基因的類型什麼藥嗎?是,要做基因的檢測主要是為了副作用,擔心它這個藥物引起的腦衰腫那目前美國研究是有33%所以排除了那個相關的基因型,它腦衰腫的副作用會比較小主要是為了病人安全,以上補充所以我覺得每一個人都要保持頭腦動一動 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9224.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9249.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
打麻將啦,找人吵架啦,這個也是有效所以補丁我現在每天找你學妹,你就不會好歹啦這個很嚴重,我覺得非常非常嚴重,太多啦有的是輕輕的,有的是越來越嚴重所以看了都很怕,所以這個要出來真的是福音啦智慧,健保不給物,補丁 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9251.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9273.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
首先我們要評估他本土的資料,這個也很重要,我想因為我們要驗證他的效果然後再評估一個財務的benefit跟burden這樣子,就是利弊得失那我覺得照顧失智我們要多元化,老金要多動多運動,瘦薄一點,營養金衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9279.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9289.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
可能這個都是可以預防的那政府在這個部分不管是在工廠中心據點那這個部分都有都已經有準備其實單一尊 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9290.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9318.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你做專研會 意思說專研會是我們辦很多長照的開始訓練訓練所以那個時候的題目就叫做失智的一個計畫表示一日十當前我們就有在關心未來的這個照顧但是那是後面我個人覺得怎麼樣早期來診斷 早期來預防可能也是一個重點 跟周圍的意見一樣好 我們大家一起努力啦 謝謝感謝 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9323.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9348.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好,謝謝蘇昭偉講的話,所謂造成內向的人心裡恐慌還有副署長有即時的一個...那你不會啦,副署長剛剛有解釋的,跟個性無關各處跟蘇昭偉報告一下,各處不是沒有經會,而且已經執行一段時間了其實是他在,剛剛特別講到,是他在評估何可還有執行面對相關的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9350.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9352.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
各位不是沒錢的,回來休息十分鐘,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9359.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9359.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
阿諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10085.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10088.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 我們繼續開會 接下來請黃秀環委員來做詢答謝謝主席 我們請部長來 請邱部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10102.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10131.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
部長好 部長我先就今天這個要修這個老人福利法第48條的條文修正草案的部分那我記得在去年的時候我有邀請這個呂次長到地方跟所有的住宿機構大家做一個這個協調因為我們知道就是說我們所有的老人福利機構他的評鑑是原本是有分那個等地就是甲乙丙丁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10133.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10157.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這個那一般的這個長照機構的評鑑是用這個合格跟不合格那會造成我們所有住宿機構的一些困擾那當時地方的這些機構他們認為就是說所有的這個住宿機構各類的住宿機構的評鑑應該是要一致所以我們看到就是說衛福部在這一次有提出來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10158.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10175.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
有關這個老人福利法第48條的一個修正草案那我們是樂見因為你們已經提出來那另外就是說在這個法還沒有未來通過之前可能會有一個過渡期那像這樣子的話你們會有什麼樣的因應措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10181.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10200.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
主席 還有非常感謝委員對於這個議題的關心我也記得是我們典禮 那個委員會非常關心我們的長照尤其我們的老人福利機構還有各項機構有相關的品質提升然後裡面委員 就是機構他們那邊有提出就是說這裡面是不是可以把它簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10201.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10217.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我們護理之家嘛還有其他我們現在那個常夫法那邊全部都是合格不合格那唯獨只有我們這個老人福利法我們老人福利機構這邊還有加一餅丁嘛那我們現在目前就是從善如流就是按照我們那個委員上次的建議還有我們就把它簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10218.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10225.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
然後讓這一個我們的這個機構可以專心來照顧我們的這一個長輩這第一點第二點我們現在目前在整個這個還是要這個整個通過還是要在這個大院這邊來來預修正合併來通過那麼在這之前我們就是來會來輔導那個各地方的業者來進化來盡量我想這個相關的評鑑的一個部分我們朝簡化的方面來輔導他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10248.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10272.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
是以上謝謝好我們希望就是說我們這些老人福利機構他應該是把精神全部就是集中在照顧我們的長輩或照顧這些住民那這個評鑑的部分我覺得應該是簡化我覺得這應該是大家的一個共識那也非常感謝衛福部真的是從山如流那接下來我想請教部長就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10273.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10289.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們今天有關這個生權法的部分在前一陣子這個媒體上面都會有講到這個不論是公車啦捷運啦或者是我們的這個鐵路也許都會有這個優先席或者我們講的博愛座啦那後來我們認為就是說這個博愛座應該要有一些調整因為讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10296.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10321.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
有需要的人來使用這個我覺得這個應該是大家的共識那我看到就是說衛福部這邊因為我們沒有看到衛福部這邊的版本可是委員的版本就是說博愛座改為優先席那博愛座改為優先席你們的我是覺得應該跟博愛座或改成優先席我是覺得都差不了多少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10321.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10350.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那我想聽聽衛福部這邊為什麼你們會同意就是說博愛座改為優先席那你們認為說這個預期的效果會是怎樣是的 因為博愛座這這麼多年來大家身跟地固的一個觀念就是老弱婦孺嘛所以才會引起可能有些人覺得我的像年輕人可能他生理期很不舒服這學生也很多啦 老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10352.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10359.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那也有一些真的身體不舒服的那這樣會引起紛爭當然我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10360.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10383.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我們的社會永遠都是互相關懷互相支持但是給實際上需要的人這才是核心精神那我也看到就是說我們原本的博愛座底下也有這樣一行字就是說請優先禮讓座位給需要的旅客那可是我們現在還是會有一些爭議就是說我們在媒體上面也會看到很多也許長輩他覺得說這個博愛座應該是要優先禮讓給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10387.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10408.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以在這個幾次的我們看到就是在去年有一個民調就是說你認為博愛桌是不是要廢除那有63%的人覺得說應該要廢除那我們今天這個有關生權法的這個部分有特別委員部分委員有提出來那我想我最想要聽就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10410.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10435.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
衛福部這邊會同意就是說有博愛座改為優先席那你們未預期的效果是會覺得說博愛座改成優先席大家看到這個優先席就會主動禮讓或者是也許會變成就像日本一樣他們現在也是用優先席啊可是他們還是有這樣的一個狀況出現啊就是說其他這個旁邊還有空位嗎那 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10437.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10444.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這個應該是說喬治亞駐日的這個大使他因為自己在網路上面POPO就是說他做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10446.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10466.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個捷運然後就是在上面可以很悠閒的看書可是就讓網友可能就直接對他的一些批評那我看到就是說這個上面他也是寫優先席那同樣也會有這樣的一個狀況所以我想請教就是說未來台灣如果由博愛座改為優先席的話部長你認為就是說會有這種被 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10469.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10476.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
被研上的這樣的一個狀況會減少嗎 或者是或者是你們認為要怎麼去做會更好第一個就是 謝謝委員關心指導這個議題 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10483.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10510.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我想既然已經這個目標就是實際上需求者那這個部分可能對老人家會覺得根深蒂固的觀念這可能需要先導這個部分就是交通部會多元化來先導那當然這個是因為可能是沒有人做吧要多一點我覺得不要用這樣一張圖就來代表好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10511.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10525.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
他好像不懂不體貼這樣子當然是這樣子可是就是說很多可能也許網友或者是說其他的人可能對他有一些批評嘛我今天的這個議題我最主要想要問就是說原本我們博愛做 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10528.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10542.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
部分委員有提出來就是說改為優先席啦那衛福部這邊也寫說這個競表支持那我想聽的就是說衛福部你這邊認為不再做改為優先席就會有這樣的這種爭議的議題就會減少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10545.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10563.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我相信如果宣導的好的話應該會減少爭議大家更能夠注意到其實各年齡層都有他需求的一面反而是會互相世代的一個互相照顧更加的促進世代的照顧應該是一個正向的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10564.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10585.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我不知道說部長在你年輕的時候也許在學校可能會有一些宣導就是說看到這個需要的人或者是老人家或者是孕婦或者是需要的人看到之後即使不是在博外做的話你也會禮讓也許在那個以前學校我不知道說部長有沒有這樣的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10588.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10605.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
現在我覺得說應該是讓所有的民眾有一個觀念不一定是要博愛座或是優先席只要是任何的一個位置在你的周邊的民眾有這個需要的話應該大家就是都要離讓我覺得應該要有這樣的一個觀念非常支持這樣的一個理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10608.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10636.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
而不是說你弄一個這個博愛座改為優先席會讓更多這個我是存疑啦大家可以討論啦另外就是說我們也在這一次就是說這個設置的比例不得低於原本就是說不得低於這個總座位數的比例15%那可能要增加到20%那我不知道說衛福部這邊的意見是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10639.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10656.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我們尊重交通部的...我們一直都是在這個部分都一直尊重交通部的規劃那交通部他們有沒有什麼樣的意見?交通部有沒有意見?交通部有來?可不可以...副市長喔?對副市長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10661.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10688.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
跟委員報告那其實就如董委員講的其實是優先洗的那個不愛做是給有需要的人來做那其實我們在我們覺得是重要的工作其實還是在於宣導所以其實數量其實我們一直覺得現在的食物其實已經不是問題啦就說大概也沒有所謂執行的摯愛其實在宣導工作其實我們是建議維持現行就好不需要再增加到百分之二十以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10690.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10711.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
其實我剛剛的一個意見就是應該是要讓所有的民眾知道就是說不一定是在這個博愛座改為優先席一旦是有民眾有這個需求的話即使他不是博愛座不是優先席的話你還是要離讓我覺得應該是要有這樣的一個觀念存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10712.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10735.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
要不然我今天如果再提一個我把這個總比例由15改為20或者是由15改為30甚至百分之百那我覺得這個應該也沒有多大的意義啦我覺得應該是讓需要的人都可以去做所有的位置而不是只是固定在這個博外座或者是優先席對我覺得這個優良的傳統應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10738.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10756.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
要留著啦 因為這的確是會符合互相幫忙的一個所以不是說只有在不管是博愛 優先席所有的座位理論上看到需要的人如果你自己覺得你可以的話應該是讓座這樣子是一個很好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10757.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10775.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
好那我現在就是說希望衛福部或者是交通部這邊因為我也聽到就是在廣播上面他也就是也有在針對這個博愛做有做一些宣傳就是說禮讓給需要的人禮讓給需要的人所以就是不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10776.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10797.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
特意去把這個名字不外做改為優先席其實我會存疑就是說你名字改完之後那後續還是會有一些爭議啦這個是我的意見所以我希望就是說衛福部應該你們自己要提出你們自己的一個未來要怎麼讓這樣的一個爭議減少而不是只是把名稱改掉而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10797.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10810.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以我想這個我們會持續來研究人的一個想法,譬如說如果你屈口這個就是有嫌疑這是我個人的看法,有嫌疑其他的就 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10811.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10837.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
就不用安心看書休息就不用因為有些人還是非常非常的善良擔心說有誰我沒有讓到位置我心裡不安那至少我們有一個優先席是給這些人其實這個部分也是有它的意義的存在當然普遍性盡量能夠讓給需要的人這不只在公車上在任何地方都是應該要互相幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10838.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10853.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好,我們希望就是說,不是只是改名字而已啦,應該是要多宣傳,然後讓需要的人,不只是在這個優先席或博愛座,在其他的位置其實大家都可以這樣子,理讓給需要的人好的,是,謝謝,謝謝韋子市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10855.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10856.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
接下來請圖權紀委來做宣達 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10896.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10925.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
好謝謝主席那請我們邱部長還有我們長照師我們祝市長請邱部長跟祝市長委員好部長那今年農曆年因為我們有去桃園新屋小做手訪市順便找廠商去採購他們一些的小禮品那當然我們去現場遇到很多身心障礙的弱勢的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10925.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10948.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那也就是我們大家俗稱的喜憨兒也就是智能障礙者那今天我們就想說來討論一下當喜憨兒老了以後誰要來照顧他們這部分的問題那尤其喜憨兒他在生理跟認知功能上他的退化速度也比一般人快那 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10949.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10969.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
智能障礙者大概40歲以後大概就進入老化那比我們法定的65歲大概還要早20年那我們的制度如果用65歲才來進入服務進入的門檻等於說這個族群的人就錯過了大概20年的黃金照顧期 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10970.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10990.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那我請問一下部長那針對我們有了解到像2022年教育部中度智能障礙者在臺灣大概有7萬人那2015到2025年我們看一下臺灣智能障礙者在機構照顧的比例部長大概知道這是多少嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10992.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11012.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我們機構照顧臺灣智能障礙者比例沒關係這上面有那我們據我們的資料顯示我們大概機構照顧的比例大概只有5%表示說他大部分照顧的主流還是要仰賴家庭來照顧那我們目前全臺身心障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11013.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11034.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
福利機構我們查了一下大概有226家那從數據上顯示我們可以了解到其實我們機構明顯的不足那即便現在我們有推日間照顧及社區居住的替代服務這部分也在發展在推廣但是這個目前的規模我們看還是有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11035.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11058.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那如果這些智能障礙者他到了40歲之後他還是要仰賴父母的照顧那我們想了解一下40歲以後他的父母親也老了那父母親也要人家照顧那這些智能障礙者自己也需要人照顧那我們這一部分我們衛福部有沒有什麼規劃來介入幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11059.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11088.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好非常謝謝委員關心到這個非常重要而且我們可以慢慢形成一個很重要的必須要關注的問題我們最近到一些相關的機構去看的確也發現了這個相當重要的問題所以真的很感謝那我們在身心障礙者其實他是前領的前領的納入啦在長照2.0就已經把前領的納入所以基本上他 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11089.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11117.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
只要身心障礙者理論上都應該可以得到強照的沒有限制65歲的不是 可是我們剛剛有講你機構照顧的其實只有5%他其他的可以說95%還是仰賴家庭照顧那家庭照顧他到40歲以後其實整體我們智能障礙者他老化的速度比一般人還快你看他到40歲之後他父母親也老了那這一部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11118.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11137.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
機構只有照顧5%,那其他的部分,我們衛福部有沒有注意到這個問題?好,所以委員是不是這個部分我請社交使來幫忙,做代理市長。跟委員報告,我們現在在2014年到2017年有一個身心障礙者社區照顧服務的資源部件計畫, |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11138.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11157.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那我們預期在14到17年我們會在社區去增加相關對於身障者的這些服務的據點那預計在到今年3月底至我們大概已經有1127個據點已經服務到2萬人左右那預計在到100我們的計畫啟程到117年會再增加695處據點可以再增加大概1萬零500人左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11169.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11171.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
大概會到三萬 接近三萬一千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11172.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11199.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這是整個的 我們大概整個的對 剛剛我有講嘛因為我們現在日宣照顧跟社區居住替代服務我知道有逐漸在發展在推廣但是我們目前看起來這個進度規模還是有限所以我們希望今天提出來就是希望在這一部分我們還是要好好的替他們來規劃這些身障老者我們希望說基本上能夠有一個完整的規劃然後衛福部來重視這件事情好 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11200.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11204.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好我們這個很重要我們一定來重視好那請衛福部來針對這部分來幫我們好好來規劃一下好那針對我們現在我們長照3.0是透過84量表來評估個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11216.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11239.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那他評估的重點是評估他是否有生活治理能力那可是一樣對於喜憨兒這部分他們很多生活可以治理但是我們知道他在認知情緒社交各方面都有一些重重的障礙但是我們在造福評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11241.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11264.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這一部分可能評估的結果是不符合失能那針對這一部分我們針對這一部分有沒有對他們因為你評估的結果可能他會沒有達到這巴斯量表的標準他生活上可能可以治理但是他在認知情緒社交方面可能沒有辦法達到那可是這一部分我們要如何去照顧他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11265.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11287.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好的,謝謝委員的指教那我想長照基本上是用CMS在評估量表來處理巴士量表其實是在評估要聘外籍看護那這個部分委員所提到的是不是我們怎麼樣來作前性的來評估這個是不是市長回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11290.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11310.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
長照的這邊的評估不是用所謂的巴士量表長照3.0不是用巴士量表如果您關心的是巴士量表這邊是不是可以有一些做一些調整那基本上因為現在的這個聘外刊的那一塊現在有非常多多元免評的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11311.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11327.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那所以這個目前在勞動部這些相關的法規跟我們衛福部一起合作的部分已經有非常多的一些多元免評的對象不見得是要走到醫院去做這樣的巴士量表的評估所以因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11328.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11345.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
提出的意思說你針對他是不是能夠治理有沒有符合失能這部分單就巴斯量表部分可能對於這些身障老者可能就沒有辦法達到嘛所以我們也希望說對於失能評估工具的指標是不是可以納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11346.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11370.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
非身體性障礙的功能性退化指標這一部分現況就已經有所以我們的CMS的評估量表就是多元評估量表裡面對於最有情緒困擾的還有一些心智障礙類的這個部分已經都有納進去所以這部分已經有幫他納入了嗎是好那希望說這一部分好好幫我們加強一下是 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11371.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11394.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那還有我們喜安兒如果過了65歲他可能在身上體性裡面他日間照顧可能無法繼續使用因為有可能這些身障的老人他到長照老人日間照顧中心他可能會被拒收因為據我們了解因為他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11395.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11406.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
心智障礙可能會吵鬧甚至會有攻擊性的行為所以對於這些身上老者可能他去這些照顧中心可能會被拒收會不會有面臨這樣的問題沒有辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11410.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11430.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
委員關心這件事情其實我們在長照2.0及支付上路的時候針對有情緒困擾或者是不好照顧的對象我們都有加成的給付就是所謂的A碼的政策性的加成補助來幫忙讓這項的一個這個服務提供單位有這個意願來照顧這些困難照顧的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11433.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11455.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我們後來又針對失智症有伴隨BPSD就是所謂的情緒行為這些困擾的這樣的對象我們又額外再有一個加成所以其實這個對於困難照顧的部分其實都有兩個層次的一個相關的加成因為據我們了解其實像很多機構他們要收 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11456.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11485.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們喜安的這些老者其實他們也困擾所以他們都是盡量其實我們會感覺說他盡量是不收啦因為他也怕造成他的困擾或者影響到其他人所以我們說是不是針對這部分應該針對身障長者我們要有一個單一的服務窗口可以統整我們日間照顧喘息跟安置這些福利的轉介是不是可以針對他們這部分成立一個單一的服務窗口 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11487.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11509.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
現階段其實包括今天是以障礙身份進到長照體系或者以老人身份進到長照體系本來就有一個橫向的聯繫的平台因為我們擔心他會變成長照體系中的孤兒其實雖然說在規劃在裡面但是其實機構來講他們是傾向不願意去收他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11510.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11524.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我們這一塊我們來努力那因為基本上目前的這個日照中心的有全國有一千多家那對於這個如果要專收障礙者這種尤其是心智障礙的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11525.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11554.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
那他基本上他的加速他的可經心就不高因為畢竟日照中心就是要方便這個交通接送可以抵達的到的所以目前我們的政策上也不是在長照體系不會說去特別有一些專一來針對什麼樣的類型的障礙者的一個日照這樣子其實他真的就是沒有辦法達到進變性的一個議題所以我們希望是這一千多家都能夠服務各種不同採取共融的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11554.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11568.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
因為據我們了解因為身上長者可能對這些機構可能他們其實真的就是傾向盡量不收因為所以我們擔心他會成為我們長照體系中的孤兒因為你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11569.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11588.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我們這個機構裡面照顧他們的只有5%他95%基本上都是家庭照顧那家庭照顧他到40歲老了以後他的父母親更老父母親也需要人家照顧他如果去照顧這些身障的長者所以我們希望長照3.0居然說要照顧全人 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11591.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11616.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
全靈全責任我也希望衛福部能夠具體針對我們身上長者這一部分能夠做一個改善也希望能夠納入我們後續的討論針對這一部分能夠來著重我們會再關注這個議題因為這一部分其實我們在地方都知道因為他們本身一些情緒甚至攻擊的行為長照體系其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11618.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11635.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
幾乎都是能不收就盡量不收啦所以我們擔心他會變成長照體系的孤兒針對這部分是不是單一個窗口特別來服務他們我們一定來設立這樣的一個最好的機制最方便的機制讓他們真的不要被忽略掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11635.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11648.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
對啊 因為我們說居然要推長照3.0居然全人 全靈 全責任好 希望這一部分能夠突顯一定不能遺漏任何一個對對對 這一部分希望我們衛福部來重視好的 好的 沒有問題好 謝謝 感謝部長好 謝謝圖權級委員接下來請劉建國委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11668.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11682.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
謝主席有請部長請邱部長還有交通部公共運輸及監理師的胡副司長請吳副司長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11686.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11712.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
今天主要排審神拳法的審查來做詢問那我想應該我剛剛看到你的報告裡面其實你有很多部分是已經表達本部競表同意那當然還有其他的條文是希望所屬的機關表示意見是這樣所以我看起來應該是各個委員所提的這個版本基本上貴部同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11712.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11737.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
已經佔了快近一半了然後其他是所屬機關要去表達意見嘛這之前你在當立委的時候當召委的時候也都處理過因為深圳有涉及的面向還有這個相關的單位還是蠻多的就像今天交通部的這個副市長也都要到所以我是覺得這個應該是可以再加快啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11737.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11751.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好不好這應該可以加快啦因為如果說大致上你們都有溝通過可能會有幾個比較集聚各個這個面向跟執行面可能會有一些一些自然染型的部分那這個可以限縮這個範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11753.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11767.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
也可以找個時間大家先坐下來趕快討論如果我們大家有共識行政院可能他的速度就會就不可能再這麼緩慢的可能速度會更快甚至我們這個會期就可以把他提出來討論經過審查之後讓他通過儘早讓這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11772.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11801.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
新生障礙者的朋友的需求可以透過我們這樣一個修法的制度來予以保障我想這個也是部長一直都在做的事情謝謝所以我還是特別拜託就是說這個會期是不是可以把它盡快的趕快提出來到委員會來做討論這第一點那部長你今天看這五十三條剛剛黃修安委員提出來問題是非常具體實際的我們今天要修要修這個博愛座不要讓博愛座變成博鬥座 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11804.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11817.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這個報導你應該都有看過一個國醫生浪出博愛座這個寫浪出是有點奇怪的用詞能被數落到哭那校長說會給他正能量這是一個面向的問題一個角度問題那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11819.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11841.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們今天為什麼要討論這個事情你知道剛剛部長有一句話我聽起來蠻感動的就是國家政策不管是哪一個單位哪一個面向在實行上在規劃上它就是一定要事權統一它的標準要一致嘛對不對那我跟各位提供一些訊息讓各位看一下我們有太多到現在通通沒有標準一致這一國N字啊高鐵的博愛座是寫這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11849.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11855.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
三個圖卡對不對這第一個應該就是老嘛弱嘛然後然後再來公測不外坐就只有一個一個圖卡然後捷運不外坐四個來接下來你看台鐵台鐵已經把把這個不外坐然後又框了更大的一個一個標識叫優先席 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11876.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11890.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
他已經走在大家前面了走在你衛部前面了然後下面就是五個圖卡我們有五個圖卡我們有四個圖卡我們有三個圖卡我們有兩個圖卡圖標我不曉得這個是這個是副市長你們這幫部的節奏你們的規範高鐵你就是這樣做台鐵你就這樣做捷運你就這樣做公車你就這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11903.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11923.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
請說明跟委員報告因為其實過去那個博愛做的一個設置大概就是依照生權法那但是就圖示的部分我們確實是沒有做一個整合那不過為什麼為什麼會沒有做一個整合為什麼應該是說這個整合是你交通部想管還是衛護部要管還是你們兩個都不曉得誰要管 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11927.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11948.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
先跟委員報告一下我們先把責任確定清楚好不好因為申請法在修的時候你責任部一定是要一列席嘛一定要引業管的範圍要去處理要去面對的嘛對不對那我現在講說這個公共運輸這幾個公共運輸的整個處理不外出的方式包含他的圖卡通通不一致這個到底是誰的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11951.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11962.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
跟委員報告一下因為我們其實現在各大眾運輸系統的所有的圖卡包括博愛座包括其他的一些圖卡我們部裡面現在都有在委託設計你們到現在才在委託設計應該是說已經有一段時間啦那其中博 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11968.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11987.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為不愛做的部分我們有配合就是說有考慮到說就是配合那個生權法已經要修正所以不愛做的部分我們已經有內部已經有預先設計了一個圖卡那如果說法規有修正的時候我們大概會你們預先設計的一顆圖卡是五個的還是三個的還是兩個的還是四個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11987.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12002.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們是參考國際的啦那我印象中好像是四個還五個的你還四個還五個你到底參考國際的你到底是參考四個還是參考五個的應該是比較像是現在不要叫做比較好像那我是不是在我高鐵會跟你講說比較好像是 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12005.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12024.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
因為這個部分我是不是在另外提供給委員因為我這個部分我們在委託設計的現在我沒有帶過來那我是不是會後再提供給所以你想要管所有的公共運輸基本上當你事權統一之後你把圖卡同步做出來之後大家都要依照你公告的一致性嘛對不對好那萬一你公告是四個圖卡那台鐵是不是抓起來打屁股 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12028.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12048.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那台鐵已經做了博愛座又優先席然後它是五個圖卡它說全部要更掉那這些錢是交通部要支持還是台鐵要自賄台鐵現在已經民營了台鐵是公司化但還沒有公司化 對 已經公司化了嘛 對不對那是一個層次的營運方式嘛 對不對它已經做了啊它已經做了啊如果你是四個 它要不要改錢誰花 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12055.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12072.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我想這個部分我們都會我們會來處理我們再來我知道你會處理你一定要處理你務必要處理你這不處理就是這樣一口多製啊5 4 3 2會不會搞到一個1而且1嘛真的有1公車不會做就1我們會參考國際上的一個圖示對你的國際圖示是要依照來一個國依照日本還是依照英國 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12084.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12112.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因為日本跟英國也不一樣啊這個事情你要應變速度要非常快嘛今天你來背景你就知道可能很多人會垂詢到你可能你沒有意識到會垂詢到我這種我這種會這樣用圖卡的標示這最簡單的顯得一致的很清楚的日本就五對不對英國就三你要選擇哪一國我們會盡量融入所有有需要的人的一個圖示這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12115.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12138.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個齁 這個 這個其實台灣的博愛做文化可以接受到1972年所以我剛剛在主席來說說已經已經將近50年了我們要面對的 我們要去做處理 我們要去做改善的我們要去規格統一化的標準要一致的 陳柔跟陳副委員所講的嘛 對不對那你今天來了你還沒有辦法講一致性的一個回應所有的委員這個還不到剛剛洪修文講的那個層次問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12140.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12168.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
今天不是你一把它規格化的時候就不會發生我們這個今天之前發生的那些事情喔還是會持續發生喔但是你要成為部長所講的所謂的道德勸說啦所謂的愛心展現啦很多人都是這麼做但是極少數人就不是這麼做所以就是問題層出不窮嘛但是你自己公佈文在管理公共運輸的時候你這些標示圖卡都不一致的你叫人民如何去遵循 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12169.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12182.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
你叫列車長怎麼去做有效的執行溝通你叫任何公務運輸的服務人員要依照什麼樣的標準去做規範 去做引導那都是不可能的事情台灣公務運輸怎麼會搞成這個樣子加這個有54321喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12196.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12217.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個問題今天已經排專案了然後等一下要審查了如果你們到現在衛衛部跟交通部還沒有辦法有一致的共識難怪身權法這麼多條你要等到什麼時候才有辦法一切都以站在身心障礙者的朋友的角度的需求去做處理很難啦很難啦這是公部門的障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12227.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12243.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我想交通部一定會弄成一致性,如果我們大案審查通過的話,我相信交通部會很快弄一個標準的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12244.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12269.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
剛剛講宣傳啦你剛剛講宣傳他意識性標準他可能今天法律通過之後他就必須一個星期內就要把這個標準弄出來了嘛你如果再拖了就不叫公共運輸了的標準化了那高鐵就變成慢鐵了台鐵就變成怪鐵了因為台鐵都已經比你們更優先了你現在還要叫台鐵去我們之前通過議員我們最後結論是怎樣你要叫台鐵已經做這個行為你要叫整條還回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12273.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12288.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
你對台鐵有沒有交代的地位?有沒有好工位?有沒有好藝術?好,我再說一句,宣傳嘛宣傳裡面衛福部,你也沒什麼錢耶你一百四十年都沒宣會,被人抬到半億六十,你只剩一千七百五十他們都沒有這麼可憐,一個月被人抬到兩千兩百幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12292.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12314.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
你一定要宣傳你不宣傳一定會出一定會再出問題你看這個下一頁台北捷運這個一直在宣傳電弧梯兩側站立城下不張兩派旅客先戰火一臉花生不要指著沒有錯的人這個部長知道這個新聞報導了吧副市長應該也知道嘛副市長這個事情你們都知道嘛對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12315.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12334.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我們以前的習慣就是都走,都騎車丟臉嘛,就因為路通就走嘛對不對,你如果沒有去公共安危,輛車都可以站立,你知道習慣靠右的人,習慣看到有通道在左邊的人,然後被兩個站在那個地方的人阻礙到,然後造成玩家路災, |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12336.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12344.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
你沒有法律的任何一個規範你只是做一個宣導而已喔你只是做一個宣導而已喔到現在還爭論不休這事情解決了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12351.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12379.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
跟委員報告這個主要是台北捷運啦那當初他們是為了一個效率的部分然後是希望大家站在右邊那可是後來發現其實這個對那個應該是說一邊在行走的時候也會造成旅客的一個不安全所以他們現在已經在做宣導就是說盡量就是不用特別站在右邊是兩邊都可以站那這個觀念據我了解台北捷運公司有持續一直在做一個宣導那當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12381.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12401.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
過程可能要 因為大家習慣已久 所以要一段時間的一個改變不過慢慢已經有開始有在做一些改變慢慢改變嘛 要宣導嘛對不對 差不多要多久的時間這個主要是台北市的部分啦 那我們會台北市有很多山鐵公共的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12402.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12422.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
暫停嘛對不對我來捷運是這個樣子我到高鐵的時候又另外一個樣子我到台鐵又另外一個樣子我是台灣人我怎麼遇到三個公共運輸的這樣的一個一個電扶梯的狀況都不一樣我來捷運的時候沒有你就要這樣我來高鐵的電扶梯的時候你也不用這樣我去台鐵的電扶梯的時候你也不用這樣把電扶梯的事就不跟這種程度你這要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12431.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12446.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以我一直講黃委員剛剛在提到就是重中之重啊你們今天來應該是準備好了啊你們這樣答覆我們我們今天修這個法好像對你們的幫助也不是很大勒市長你又要來齁 注意 嘿來 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12448.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12456.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你一直叫我注意來,你就注意這個事情,看你怎麼打武藍,快點。我簡單講啦,有關於土石的保温,其實各國規定不一樣,我想說法國,法國他們還有一個就是傷兵,他們非常注重的就是說,你如果說受傷的那個,基中你看那個狗的裡面,有一個就是傷兵啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12466.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12480.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
當然我們會來趕快 當然這個是主要是交通部一邊但是我們是 生權法這是我們管的嘛我們會趕快協調交通部 比較快來做一個相關的那個LOGO 比較快把它確定這第一點第二點就是說 那個選團的部分就像消防委員剛才所說不是只有改名而已 我們也是要比較快來做選團嘛這個部分雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12488.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12496.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
你存錢幾萬而已全部都放在這裡他全部放在這裡也不一定看得到效果你要全部放在這裡我全力支持不會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12498.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12524.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
還是要處理啊還是要處理1750你還是要全部放在這個地方不過還是交通部一起來嘛對不對當然是這樣嘛一個星期內啦好不好具體的你們宣傳的這樣的一個方式還有統一的這樣的一個圖卡的標示然後甚至於每一個車廂都有一定程度的定時去廣播等等等諸如此類相關的詳細計畫提供給委員會做參考好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12525.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12543.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
拜託盡速盡速盡速一致性了那第二個第二個問題抱歉一樣還是要給部長看一下這個喔剛剛下一個下一個月剛剛次長講得很好啦就是下一個月那個服務的項目服務的項目對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12548.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12573.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這一個剛剛是月警員提供的嘛要一致性那次長特別提到 次長你注意了你特別提到個人助理是屬於這一個屬於社會就是 對不起兩個層次嘛一個是生活照顧嘛 對不對就屬於長照這一塊來處理嘛另外一個是屬於社會的參與面向嘛你看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12574.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12583.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
各住的服務不提供之協助 各縣市均不依那我們簡單講 這七個項目呢社會參與 你看是哪幾項你看是哪幾項陪伴跟外出嘛 新北市不提供他怎麼社會參與你們剛剛為什麼要針對這個表去做答覆部長想說一致啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12601.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12610.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好 那你說什麼照顧 應該1 2 3 4都可以算是嘛 什麼照顧你看這麼多縣市都不提供啊你們怎麼剛剛針對這一塊都沒有做任何的一個答覆我一連線幾乎全部都攔掛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12623.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12643.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
現在就是說我們這個部分主要是會有一個自立生活計劃這個計劃主要是社工、男性身障礙者來共同討論你要先去做需求評估嘛還要了解他的總統之後訂出一個照顧計劃但是委員你剛才說的那樣你如果身邊是陪伴跟外出這是社會參與最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12644.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12660.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我沒有話要跟你們說,我跟你們說的是有的啊有的就是你們要恢復啊,你們要看要不要處理啊,要不要去應變啊我比較快回去結束以後,我趕快來跟你們討論是要全國加起來,先把對社會常務,要給這身障者朋友,他把它限制住了,不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12662.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12687.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我趕快跟新北市政府那邊趕快來瞭解一下 好不好然後也回覆給委員我時間有關係啦 我最後再請教部長跟次長啦你們要答覆我啦 如果說我們一個政策行程規劃都已經完整 然後執行也差不多我們就講五年就好了啦 講五年然後在整個執行過程裡面 這個預算的執行數基本上都不到六成啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12688.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12706.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
不到六成我要請教部長業管的單位業管的主管業管的承辦你們要怎麼處理你們的處置方式怎樣執行率低落一定要去檢討我到底是什麼原因嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12708.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12722.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
不是 原因一定會很多啦到底是自然燃省的原因是大家可以理解的但是連續五年的情況之下就像現在這個啦我的助理馬上就可以獻底牌了這個是剛來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12727.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12747.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
對 這個當然就是要去看各種原因 如果是可以可那你就回答我什麼原因了 次長你注意你馬上回答我什麼原因不過委員 我們這個其實我們都有跟地方政府講就是說在沽的時候我們希望能夠給這一個我們聲音障礙者用寬沽的方式就是我們核定的時數 讓他們比較適合的讓他們比較適合所以地書公可能在水泳方面沒那麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12754.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12772.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
他在收容,所以你會比較管他,但是他收容就沒這麼多啦所以每一年都是這樣就對了啦所以我們才有愛心,我們心照也幫他看但是他想你會提出的訴求就沒這麼多所以今年也這樣,明年也這樣,明年也這樣,國慶那年也這樣,不用檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12775.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12793.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
原因就是這樣 你要跟我回答 原因就是這樣你如果要很肯定的答覆我 我就有另外一個問題要請教你了是這樣的 我想當然啦 我們來檢討一下看是不是有可能沒有好用的地方像剛才你說新北市那邊 他們告訴說內小的產物沒有人去陪伴我們自己來檢討 我這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12803.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12820.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
新北市各處的服務項目不同意外出這個部分這個裡面找新北市去看如何去討論然後去對新北市需要各處不能外出的情況要對這些深圳市的朋友如何坦白講在日本叫謝罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12822.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12829.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那我現在就請教你嘛,你的合定總數110.4309,111.341,112.415,113.486,今年多少?你節節上升喔,如果到113對照12,你是上升到將近50%的成長喔,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12844.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12854.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
更寬的一個核定嘛對啊但是相對的你的實際使用數啦齁你使用時數這邊表格都很清楚嘛還是在你的這個核定的總數都超五成多而已嘛一直都沒有超過嘛所以大概也說一句話說不合用啦不合情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12871.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12884.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
應該是這樣嘛 剛才廖委員講的八點鐘 我覺得其實有辦法去凸顯每一個身上的朋友在提出各處的過程裡面真實的狀況嗎那倒未必 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12889.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12906.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那你知道嗎 我們這個還要對照這個表格還不是很精細前面應該叫預算嘛 對不對我們的預算就是在這個資歷資源的大項裡面嘛3億嘛 對 3億但是你知道你一百十不是多少嗎一百十四你3億嘛 對不對一百十三多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12914.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12934.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
對 差不多兩億多一百十人是太少對一百十是太少對如果要簡單說的話就是種植一直增加一直增加一直增加嘛對不對 你如果要說世界殊榮的市場也有在增加但是對這個增加對你原本的匡列多層價預算那個合乎比例嗎好像沒有喔報告議員我是不是我知道那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12940.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12962.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
如果這樣說起來,可能我們在這部分有一些可能雖然合併,但是可能不合應,等等這個部分我們回來檢討我拜託一下,不要到這裡很需要各自的身心在者的朋友,跟他們再做幾個小時的斤斤計較 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12964.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12990.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
真的真的真的不需要這樣啦齁那整個我們有這個制度我們有這個預算我們有這個計畫但是執行起來當然你可以用另外一個角度來再做另外一個討論啦齁那我還是覺得當有這些預算的時候在整個執行上一直出的問題有明顯的這樣的落差而且我們是年年年節節的上升的這個面向的預算喔但是我們看不到實際上的今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12991.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13017.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
所有的身障者、朋友覺得這樣的需求他們可以應付到他們的真正的需要不然今天不會有這個記者會嘛所以我剛才有提這個嘛,這個是有問題嘛所以這東西是不是可以...這不可以...這不可以等到修緩嘛,對不對是不是一天白天有什麼樣的應變的促使相關的一些調整的一個方向、方案可以提供給委員會做參考,可以嗎?好,謝謝部長、謝謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13033.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13046.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
好 接下來請王振興委員來做詢問好 謝謝主席我們還是請邱部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13055.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13079.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
委員好部長好所以今天雖然修法的內容看起來簡單可是如何能夠再落實如何讓它更精進真的是需要大家共同來努力那針對今天我們這個《老土法》第48條的修正條文裡面我們也提供一些想法來大家互相參考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13081.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13109.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
今天大家都看到我們部裡面所提出來的這個書面報告裡面有關於勞扶法為什麼要針對這個福利機構的評鑑做一些調整我想已經講得非常清楚包括召委也希望能夠把勞扶法跟我們目前的這個長照法評鑑機構要去一致就是以前會分等地希望就直接把它設為兩者是一致的是合格或不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13110.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13124.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那這部分部長你也敬表支持那也希望能夠針對於這個條文裡面相關的一些內文在做修正動議以後把它能夠弄得更周全 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13126.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13150.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我想大家都會朝這個方向去努力那在這個憲法過程裡面民眾黨他的黨團裡面其實也講到了立法說明說發現目前的評鑑會造成一些行政壓力那機構在處理希望得到高分的同時會投入大量的人力來準備書面的資料跟報表反而會壓縮了這個照顧的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13153.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13171.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這基本上是被以的長照服務品質提升了本質所以才希望能夠做這一個相關的這些配套措施包括跟兩個法案的一致性那我們也了解這個一致性是非常重要那也期待能夠得到一些改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13171.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13188.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
不過請教一下就是說我們如果要簡化評鑑標準減輕機構的壓力還要同時兼顧這個評鑑品質得到好的權平衡的話那我們在具體說法上有沒有辦法透過修法來達到這樣的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13190.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13200.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
副長或者是次長有沒有相關的意見可以提供給我們做參考我想評鑑是一種不得不的必須要做就像醫院評鑑大家愛愛救但是為了維護品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13206.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13231.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
以及督導整個醫療院所能夠注意到各種品質安全各方面這個部分不得不的一個平衡的一個做法謝謝我們大院能夠來關心到這個問題我們也覺得把它變成一致性會更好處理也不用大家在扮 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13232.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13252.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
病人這種假意病定的衝到大家壓力大啦那最重要是好好把病人照顧好那這個部分我相信如果有這樣的一個一致性以後我們繼續來修正以及聽聽機構的聲音我相信我們會把平線的制度做得更 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13253.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13279.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
更好有必要的話我們都可以來成立小組來演繹這樣子是因為我們知道目前為什麼要把它從這個等D加以丙丁然後變成那個合格跟破合格我們往下看就可以知道目前的老夫法的評鑑標準裡面就有包括現有的如果是沒有修法之前的話就是分了U加以丙丁那丙跟丁基本上是會受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13280.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13307.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
影響會被公佈他的這個機構的名稱同時會有一些懲處那這個評鑑項目裡面其實還包括五大面向包括經營專業照護安全環境等等那有不同的占比那我們修法以後如果兩個法案的評鑑標準要趨於一致的話那未來在執行的部分包括老夫法跟長照法裡面的這個評鑑標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13310.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13338.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
有沒有已經同步在做處置這部分不知道目前部裡面有沒有相關的一些處理模式有關這個部分 周代理市長跟委員報告搭配整個條文的修改目前我們也已經邀集了相關的專業團體我們已經有一個研究計畫在做下一輪評鑑的評鑑指標的一個修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13339.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13356.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
其中包含一個目標就是怎麼樣把評鑑的項目在能夠比較精準的去認定它的品質的情況之下把指標的具體項目一併來做簡化這個是在整個計畫裡面的一個重要的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13356.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13382.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
是 因為就好像剛剛昭緯一直在追問的交通部如何能夠針對於我們在提供給社會更公平更能夠服務到不同的族群之下可以有一致性的做法相對的如果我們未來也希望很多的服務的內容都能夠去一致或是對各個單位的要求去一致的話其實在不同的法律之間也應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13383.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13404.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
基於相同的要求之下應該朝這個方向來進進這很期待如果說衛福部裡面有相關的這些服務的內容分散在不同的這些條法律裡面的話也希望能夠從這個方向去檢討不要讓各個單位在執行的時候造成一些困擾我們會邀請長照師一起來參與就是大家一起來討論讓兩邊的做法能夠趨近 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13411.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13440.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
因為我們比較擔心的就是如果透過等一下我們也許會討論到修正動議來看的話會把原來是屬於兵等兵等的這部分就直接改成合格或不合格當然那個是要從這個執法裡面再去做確定我們比較擔心的就是本來在一開始的時候針對第48條的前面第一項的前面幾款就會直接如果有不符合規定的話就要公佈他的名稱負責人的姓名而且是直接開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13441.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13455.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
那如果經過修正動議裡面的內文把它往後調調到第八項的話呢會變成說如果是不合格要限期令期改善如果不改善的話呢才要開始做處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13456.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13478.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以相對來講那反而是一個相對的放寬所以我們等一下在做這個修正動議的條文內容的部分我相信大家要提供更多的意見或者是有更好的方式來把這個該有的要讓我們的機構必須要遵守法尊的部分能夠有更周連的處置模式這個是等一下我們會再處理的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13480.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13507.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好的好 那針對是有關於這個博愛座的相關定義跟規範的部分我想是讓我第五三條大家也非常期待有更好的方式來解決目前廠長碰到的困境我本身是已經在現有的博愛座的條件之下我每次搭捷運就很大方的就坐在我該坐的位置那我現在不知道如果調整優先席以後我上到這個捷運或者是到哪裡我應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13508.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13528.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
怎麼樣去面對這樣的這個環境的就是這個條款改變以後造成的對我的一些影響我相信應該有很多人會開始要不知道怎麼樣去面對這種從博愛做變成優先席這樣的這個概念上的處置所以對於使用需求跟精神上的處置我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13530.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13541.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
衛福部應該是責無旁貸要把這些要求或者是精神能夠貫注到日常的生活裡面做適當的處置那不知道這邊衛福部有沒有做哪一些的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13542.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13566.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
好 我想委員提的這個很重要圖法不足以自省所以怎麼樣在桌前性的 不然的話那你本來應該要坐在那裡 才坐到如坐尊山的確會有這種擔心所以我們可能要把所有的配套與宣導的內容可能都要做桌前性的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13568.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13590.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
一個一個設計,讓該做的做到哪一邊,該比更需要的可能就這個時候就可能給更需要的人這樣子我們希望整個設計到這樣的一個,形成這樣的一個文化,那文化是需要來宣導的這個部分我想我們會做這些委員的提醒,我們會把它做折扣性的一個來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13591.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13611.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
因為文化的養成需要比較長久的時間那這個當然也希望有好的社會共識也知道未來在執行的時候可以怎麼樣讓它更為優化那最後一個部分就是要比較不是很緊急可是希望能夠盡速來處理的就是有關於公衛疫苗的能源運送的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13613.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13629.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
因為我們知道現在天氣已經進入到夏季變得非常炎熱那對疫情的改善或者是目前針對疫情如何能夠有效管控那打疫苗應該是非常重要的一個需要提供給民眾的服務那目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13630.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13653.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們很多的疫苗包括流感疫苗、COVID疫苗、小二疫苗等等這個都需要透過冷藏的配送來讓這個品質可以得到好的保護可是很多的基層診所在領疫苗的時候需要由醫事人員到當地的衛生局去取回疫苗這個過程相對來講不准耗時而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13654.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13678.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
如何能夠有好的這個保存的模式其實是會讓人家擔心所以如何能夠討論出一個好的方式來讓這個疫苗的冷鏈配送服務可以更為周全那其實在COVID流行期那段時間很多的縣市是有提供配套措施的它可以透過好的這個冷鏈的配送 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13680.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13694.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
能夠讓這個疫苗很安全的而且是很有效率的抵達到不管是在衛生所或者是到基層診所來讓這個疫苗施打可以更為安全更為符合期待那目前並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13696.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13710.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
還是還沒有一個很完整的標準當然這個需要經費也需要一些好的措施跟方法那針對這部分不知道有沒有辦法請這個部裡面盡速的來研商 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13711.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13737.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
是針對於這個都會區先做呢還是要從偏鄉或離島先把它處理到一個程度讓全國未來再處理這個能量配送疫苗的這個安全度啊或者是各方面可以達到好的一個保護措施部長這邊有沒有可以提供給我們的想法我想委員提的這個是非常重要的在基層醫療長久以來發生的問題尤其在像COVID剛開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13742.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13762.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
當時我也擔任台北市醫師公會理事長,王委員也擔任基隆市醫師公會理事長,其實在防疫當中我們都花了很多的心力,一個剛開始要打COVID疫苗的時候,政府是認為基層診所是沒辦法打,當然他們認得很多原因,包括冷淚 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13763.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13779.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
配送是一個很大的問題但是我們後來經過專家的一個研議認為說他大概怎麼樣的一個運送會沒有問題然後果然這些螞蟻雄兵創造了七成的疫苗施打率 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13781.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13804.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
這個部分所以變成裡面解決這個能量的配重是一個很重要的問題那這個因為它跟衛生局有相當大的關係我們部裡面會出面來關心這些有沒有需要幫忙的因為它是相當的複雜診所像台北就有幾千家那不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13805.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13834.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
有在真的打疫苗的公會疫苗的可能至少有幾百家以上衛生局都沒有這個人可以配送所以只好去領這樣子那這個部分有沒有更好的方式我們來思考來研議是 所以就要麻煩這個部裡面或者是CDC開始做一些統籌那要跟地方政府包括衛生局如何能夠商討出一個好的方式很期待這個部長可以趕快把這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13835.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13856.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
好的 做一個重要的處理模式那最後其實就是把今天三個部分跟部長來這邊做一些討論的期待能夠具體的落實好 那我們就繼續努力好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在請陳北宇委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13869.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13871.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
好謝謝主席那先請長照司謝謝來請祝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13880.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13898.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
委員好市長我想要快速跟您討論關於照專的事情我上次已經來談過因為我們看到長照3.0即將上路那我之前跟你討論過他們的個案量其實遠遠超過這個相關數字當時你給我的回應是說我們有考慮要把照專從臨時人員改為政府聘僱人員已經改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13899.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13913.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
对已经改了好那可是我想要跟你说来长照3.0之后呢看一下目前我们有一个很重要的规划叫做医疗长照无缝接轨当我们要做到这件事情的时候我们其实需要第一线的照专协助我们对不对 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13914.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13942.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好 這個您非常的清楚結果很多照專就立刻看到這個就非常緊張來跟我們澄清因為除了我們剛剛說解決那個聘僱制度之外其實現場很多照專的聘用人力是不足的那當然是因為很多人不願意來做這個工作那我們現在很擔心假設醫療長照無縫接軌在後續的推動上我們到底可以做什麼樣的配套讓這件事情真的可以落實而不是所有最後工作loading都落在照專跟個管身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13944.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13958.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
因为我们现在不确定你们后续的规划跟进度如何补足人力如何把相关配套做好让所有被服务被照顾的人都有意识到中间这个照专一个管他们其实承担了非常大的工作量跟业务量 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13960.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13982.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
跟委員說明我們在6月10號其實也針對這些不管今天是照專還A的一些人力問題有找了縣市政府來討論我們目前在繼續教育辦法裡面也針對照專必須要這個聘用要有兩年的長照工作年資這個部分在預告的版本已經放寬為只要一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13982.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14003.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那這個部分也是都跟地方政府已經有達成共識那他們就等於照專跟A拉起為都是只要一年的工作年資就可以來擔任這樣一個工作那對於這個資格做了一些鬆綁那可以讓有更多的人能夠投入這份工作所以你們的研究跟討論是認為放寬這個資格就有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14006.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14028.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
让更多人来应征吗可是你再看一下这张投影片的最下方叫做充实照顾人力确实我们有想到照服员的劳动条件要调整然后或者是扩大外籍中阶技术人力的禁用推动照顾分级派工这些我都非常认同确实可以改善现场的状况但是我们却没有想到照顾人力这一端就是我刚刚说的 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14028.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14048.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
其實中間照專跟A個管承擔了非常大的工作量那個是一般人沒有意識到的那我們如何調整可是我覺得剛剛你所說起來從兩年年資變成一年年資或者是你之前跟我說的從所謂臨時人員變成聘僱人員勞動權益更有保障我覺得都可能還不足以 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14049.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14075.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
立刻改善现场的状况先不管长照3.0上路之后那光是现在状况我都还是很担心那可不可以因为我时间有限我不要耽误其他委员时间我想我的具体的要求非常明确我要持续跟长照司讨论我希望我们在座长照无缝接轨从病人出院要回到社区当中那个无缝接轨我们要必须同步确保照专跟A个管的量能是真的可以负荷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14076.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14101.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
否則如果工作業務量卡在他們這邊病人會抱怨醫院可能也會抱怨不要到最後所有的抱怨都到他們身上如同我剛剛說的我們在想照顧人力的時候完全忽略掉這一群人再來我可不可以拜託你們兩個月內邀集照專跟A個館做開會討論聽取第一線基層人員的聲音當然有你們相關部會在我們來討論一個比較好的配套跟改善方案的可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14102.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14123.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
有機會嗎我們其實6月10號就已經針對這個議題可是有請第一線的工作人員嗎因為你請縣市政府的承辦加上中央的承辦但你沒有足夠第一線工作人員其實我們並不真的知道他們在每天接電話他們在個案拜訪我們並不真的知道他們在第一線工作的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14125.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14141.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我們其實邀的縣市政府其實就是長照中心的這些照專照督那當然A的部分其實是因為是地方政府特約的單位所以是由地方政府所以你覺得不需要再召開相關意見都很夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14141.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14164.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
因為所有的照專跟A個管全國的人數所加起來我沒有說找這麼多當然不可能我當然說不可能要你們招一個四千就像我們以前在教文我們要聽取基層教師的聲音我們有相關的工會或相關的團體或是地方政府有邀請一些願意參與公民參與社會服務發聲的基層工作人員那如果你覺得你們那個會議已經有了那這樣沒關係你們會後把相關會議資料給我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14167.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14189.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
讓我確定一下你們真的有收集到足夠多的聲音反映現場的狀況那如果沒有我們後續再來討論好不好好好謝謝我覺得我們不要只有做這些事情但是更多改善現場的狀況其實非常重要好接下來謝謝司長接下來請社家屬我其實要我之前在跟社家屬討論相關議題的時候就是關於自立生活個人助理服務的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14190.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14213.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我們其實也已經找過社家屬開會那目前時間有限我就直接討論到下一個問題就是第一個社會局處進行自立生活需求評估的時候相關法源依據其實這一次我在這些質詢我在上一次5月8號的時候我們就有跟社家屬積極的討論也有提醒你們對不對好那我想知道目前我們所問的這些事情的進度為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14216.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14228.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
第一個身心障礙者申請自立生活個人助理服務的審查制度還有研議個人助理服務原則等相關文件我們之前有請你們帶回去研議我們不知道現在研議的進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14229.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14247.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
跟委員報告那有關在自立生活需求評估的部分那我們應該也有我們也有邀集縣市政府來做過相關的討論那我們在今年是在5月8號之後嗎對不起在5月8號之前之前好之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14247.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14263.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那我們在跟縣市政府就有做過相關的討論那我們要求縣市政府能夠去建立這個在個案申請的時候有一個審查的機制那這個申請的機制裡面希望是這個申請的機制的人員包括了 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14264.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14291.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
學者專家那身心上的團體代表政府部門代表跟同儕支持員這樣的多元的一個去組成能夠去充分的去在個案評估他的需求的時候能夠有一個比較周延的認定我當時的質詢在5月8號的時候我是跟您請教說目前所有這些審查制度裡面我們並沒有邀請相關申請人出席發表他們的意見因為他們的申請書就是被很多專家學者評定就是這樣就是這樣就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14292.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14309.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
最後的結果他們好像也只能默默的接受沒有後續的救濟沒有後續相關的流程所以我們當時在5月8號的時候我是拜託你們帶回去研議如何有可能邀請當事人參與會議所以目前5月8號之後其實沒有針對我那天問的有往下追蹤對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14310.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14329.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
委員報告那之後針對這個我們沒有全面性的開會但是個別的縣市我們現在知道已經有部分的縣市我們跟縣市先開始在做討論個別的縣市在做討論那怎麼樣去把這個讓身心障礙者在審查會議的過程中能夠陳述意見的這個部分能夠去把它能夠納進來那已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14331.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14353.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
像台中的部分就我們所知應該是已經開始能夠開始做這樣的處理那後續其他縣市的部分我們會繼續的來做協調和推動那另外在於這個審核的結果的部分的時數即使是經過當事人的意見的陳述也許這個核定的數量可能跟當事人的申請可能還是會有一些落差那這個部分的救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14355.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14380.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
對不起 我們也會要求地方政府能夠給這些申請人一個類似申訴的一個機制那當然他其實後續包括一般的行政救濟他都可以來使用好 那如果有你剛剛說這些資料我們會後再拜託你們提供給我們辦公室我們確保一下相關的進度還有其實之前有討論到現行的長照跨區可不可以從月份跨區進階到一週或是一日 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14381.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14406.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
提供跨區服務上次我有問到這個事情我不確定相關進度但時間有限你們可以再給我們後續的結論嗎如果你們有進行相關會議的話好不好好謝謝好下一張一樣是社家屬喔其實關於合理調整的部分我們也發現了很多問題而且這些問題可能還蠻棘手的第一個是合理調整的部分呢目前第一個問題是看衛福部的規劃目前你們是要求這些機關自行 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14407.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14417.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
進行合理調整然後障礙者可以提出要求請這些機關進行改善的強度跟界限我們目前其實看不到出來我不確定你們這邊進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14419.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14445.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
針對合理調整的部分因為你們要機關自行進行我們現在對於這個合理調整的部分我們現在有訂一個各機關去訂定合理調整一個各機關去訂指引的原則那給各個目的事業主管機關去訂相關的合理調整的指引所以這個部分我們大概也有協調各目的事業主管機關來怎麼樣去訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14448.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14471.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
他的一般一些合理調整的具體的做法那這個部分的話怎麼樣去把這個裡面細節去納進去當然個別的場域他會有些個別的狀況的部分所以那個就是由各目的世界主管機關在他的指引出來然後讓各個場域去根據各自己的場域的狀況那是個別身心障礙者的需求來做相關的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14471.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14494.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那衛福部這邊會有一個比較大方向的規範跟指引讓各個機關在訂的時候有些重要原則不要疏漏了有 我們在113年就已經先訂出來這樣一個各機關去訂定合理調整指引的原則就是讓目的事業主管機關去訂指引的時候我們在更上面有一個通案的原則那目前你們在看各個機關在訂的時候相關進度或相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14495.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14520.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
衛福部這邊你都會提供協助嗎目前我們已知的像法務部勞動部都已經有相關人事行政總署都已經有那教育部也在在嚴定中好這個我們會再跟你們所知再請你們告訴我們來第二個我想問一下目前草案上只有說合理調整可是假設機關沒有積極的動作或者是他們後續所做出的調整不成比例過度負擔那後續會有什麼結果你們這邊會如何協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14522.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14540.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
因為過去我們在修特教法的時候我們就希望如果沒有合理調整它可能造成一種歧視可是當時沒有成功入法可是我認為在身障權法裡面如果我們沒有積極的態度我覺得其實是不合理的那如果我們後續還要修所謂的反歧視法我認為這個事情要一併考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14542.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14563.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
目前我們在生權法裡面是沒有單獨針對合理調整去訂相關的救濟措施但是現行生權法裡面包括這個當事人去做相關申訴的制度在如果這個職場或者是相關場域裡面他做一個不到位的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14565.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14594.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
或者是這個對於調整的幅度是不是有超過這個場域能夠負擔的程度等等那這個部分他還是可以依照生權法現有的這樣的一個申訴機制來做處理那另外如果是在這個合理調整的程度如果是達不到那當然如同剛才委員所提示的就是我們會配合行政院這邊現在在定的在嚴定中的反歧視法的部分那這個部分我們會併到這邊一起來做併到反歧視法的部分一起來做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14594.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14623.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
看起來是大工程我覺得時間有限我們就之後一起努力最後一個提問在特教法第10條第4項裡面規定中央主管機關要針對各個教育階段提供合理調整跟申請的相關指引可是目前特教法修法已經到現在兩年可是合理調整指引都還沒有出來我只想要追問後續的進度跟規劃就我們所知道目前教育部是在研擬中好那衛福部這邊協助他們我們會跟教育部這邊一起來配合你們有定一個bandline嗎因為其實已經兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14626.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14644.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
困境會是什麼這個部分的話因為我們也會搭配這一次生權法的進度這就是我擔心如果要搭配生權法當然後續我們修法進度要加快否則其實這邊也會卡住我就一併先把問題提出來好嗎謝謝主席不好意思超過時間謝謝謝謝陳委員的詢問謝謝代理處長好委員會在這邊報告因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14651.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14678.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
我們的天達園還有首爾園你們可以先用餐沒關係但是我知道你們手都要動因為我們委員會會開到所有委員會垂詢完畢我怕你們第一次來給你們嚇到因為這邊是血汗情的你們可以先用餐應該還有剩下三位委員所以就請各位委員空置時間接下來請蔡議員、蔡議員、蔡議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14681.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14683.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
不在請換語委來做詢問好謝謝召委有請部長來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14698.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14713.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
今天我們是針對帳權法會處理博愛座的部分改為優先席因為這個部分我也有提案權力支持我想會是一個好的開始我相信相關的問題衛福部也會排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14714.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14729.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那我針對這個帳權法想要針對個人助理的制度那還有帳權法如何保障自立生活那希望衛福部能夠更加努力的爭取因為部長你知道上一次大幅修改是2011年1月10號 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14731.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14750.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
那到今天14年沒有大休那邱部長還是邱委員的時候應該記得我們上一屆那就是遇到衛福部的版本那跟我們那個帳權團體的落差很大那我知道衛福部到現在都還沒有準備好那我憂心忡忡所以今天就 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14752.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14775.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
再次来质询这一题我想我们目前都知道障权法就是里面障碍者申请个人助理的法源依据是第50条第9款当年这个条文其实就有很多的问题因为条文限制要促进社会参与导致刚刚我们召委也有讲到就是说 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14775.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14804.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
他在現實上個人助理服務的內容常常被限縮解釋不管是社會參與甚至把個人協助的服務包裹在自立生活的概念裡面解決沒有辦法讓障礙者完整自覺的掌控服務也就是其實目前我們這整個法落實的情況完全不符合CRPD的第19條條約個人助理的問題很多可是去年8月我們部長還沒有當 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14805.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14830.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
已經 您當部長了嗎 那個時候七點半 有那可是那個版本我不知道可能會是前一屆部長任內完成的所以去年八月公告的版本預告草案完全沒有處理這一條也讓障礙者非常的失望喔那所以我們今天對未來的衛福部送到行政院送到立法院的版本期待很高那我就先講原來的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14832.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14853.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那法律因為年久失修不完整就障礙者等於是被迫走上訴訟的路2023年新北市的障礙者遇解那他個人助理時數有60小時的上限平均每天只有兩小時沒有辦法讓他符合我們法律的尊嚴的自立生活所以他告了新北市社會局勝訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14855.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14874.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那判決出入之後各縣市核定個人助理時數雖然沒有明文上線可是實際上核定的情況其實很不樂觀那以下是我們辦公室這個PPT好像沒有顯示出來我這邊螢幕是壞掉了嗎主席可以暫停一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14875.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14901.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
有了那這個部分我要先講一下也請我們召委一起監督我們衛福部自己沒有統計這個是民間團體台自盟自己調查的到底申請的需求多少核定了多少我們衛福部自己沒有叫縣市地方政府統計這個是他們自己去做調查的他們問了57個障礙者申請個人助理的需求你看從左邊來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14904.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14919.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
720小時就是重症24小時的那日本跟韓國都有開放可是在台灣720這位第一號的被問的被訪問的只有被核定5小時核定需求比1%你看到的情況是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14921.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14941.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
只要申請然後我們右下角這邊是實際來看720申請的就核定時數5小時610小時的核定125小時那上面是台字盟統計的你發現我們看一下右上這個申請時數越高核定比例越低 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14942.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14967.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我想朝偉非常的了解我們雲林這邊的身障者障礙者的家庭通常會申請這麼高的因為他這個都要被核定嘛就是重症那日本韓國都有全日24小時就會所謂申請720的我看我們台灣我看衛福部如果統計的話等一下我會要求衛福部去特定幾乎應該沒有核定成功的啦那為什麼日本韓國可以有我們台灣卻沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14968.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14995.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那這個部分剛剛朝委也很關心這個問題那根據我們辦公室跟這些障礙團體的了解就是因為時數用不完因為衛福部過去會說時數還有剩啊用不完是為什麼幾個原因第一個各住安排限制多而且有些地方政府規定你一個月前要提前預約今天我們如果就是說叫大家能夠預估自己一個月後的生活狀況的話你就會發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14998.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15025.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
困難很高尤其是精神障礙者幾乎沒有辦法就那個個人的計畫而且服務事項各種受限障礙者還不能自己選定個住依我知道的日本的制度他是把錢發給障礙者自己依照政府的規定的哪些是個人助理的資格可以自己選擇你今天如果還跟某些人不合的時候那配合不佳別無選擇所以我們現在臺灣的這個個住制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15028.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15049.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
地方政府幾乎都沒有以障礙者為核心那這也是違反CRPD的精神那你可以看到就以2024年全國1326個人申請平均核定的時數30個小時等於是一天一小時這個比一個長者的長照服務還低我想我們全國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15050.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15072.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
障礙者絕對真實如果能夠需用的話不會是這樣那所以才會造成時數使用率這麼的低那這幾個都是目前制度的問題所以歸納來講因為時間的緣故就是我認為目前的申請制度就有五大問題第一個資格限制如果今天有聘僱看護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15073.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15100.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
看護者不是也需要休息嗎那你為什麼限制他都不行還有零有其他的津貼者也不行未考慮緊急個別需求像我剛講的精神障礙者他沒有辦法在一個月前做計畫等等那方式也是那對撰寫申請計畫說不利另外內容剛剛昭緯的質詢也有講到各縣市認可服務事項不同嚴重影響核定結果第四點障礙者 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15101.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15116.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
無法參與補助審議會議表達個案需求那就讓一群不知道是怎麼樣的專家齁只上核定那這部分也不符合CRPD的精神應該要讓審議的過程中有一定比例的障礙者一起參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15116.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15134.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
最後沒有辦法申訴最後我們看到新北的那位據說最後幾乎是要有律師協助就是行政訴訟訴願那這讓他們申訴的成本非常的高這都是制度的問題所以我就五個要求最重要時間的緣故我想第四點 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15135.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15152.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我希望我們衛福部你至少做障礙者申請時數跟核定結果的統計進行分析那再來我們修法的時候就可以依照這個時數來講那如果要增加個人助理的話我知道衛福部擔心預算過高可是你們統計出來的跟我們看到日本韓國的都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15156.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15181.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
以東京的人數2000萬接近台灣那他們申請就是24小時的人數是大概我知道的是400人左右所以不會像你們擔心的一個天文數字所以這部分台灣在經濟上我們已經是跟日韓並駕齊驅制度上不應該讓我們的障礙者無法符合CRPD的國際精神那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15181.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15195.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
我們一切要務實沒有統計就沒有發言權我們一切都應該科學來規劃台灣能夠做到多少這五點那可以一個月內給我書面報告然後希望你們能夠納入你們的版本嗎如果評估OK的話好嗎邱部長我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15199.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15216.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
非常謝謝委員提的這麼重要的建議而且很具體我想我們一定會一個一個來檢討一個月給書面報告給書面報告也給我們盡量能夠納入修法所有的未還委員一份好嗎沒問題好 那請周偉跟我一起監督感謝 謝謝邱部長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15219.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15230.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
一個月你對他們太寬鬆了應該是兩個星期內啦好謝謝接下來請葉元之委員葉元之委員不在請陳委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15251.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15260.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
謝主席麻煩請法部矯正署跟衛福部矯正署還有衛福部要哪位?邱部長是國健署?沒有,一個矯正署 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15275.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15291.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
我想先看一下這個圖這部電影的畫面是1990年已故的金馬影帝陳崇勇主演的電影片名叫《我在死牢的日子》這個畫面的影片中一位死刑犯挾持監鎖護理師的畫面 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15294.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15321.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那雖然這是一部電影但是沒想到這樣的畫面卻真實在監獄裡面上演而且發生在我們台東那這個是在這個月的10號東城監獄發生受刑人看診時勒住護理師的頸部拿筆攻擊護理師的新聞那這是當天發生事件診間的這個示意圖我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15322.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15338.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
受刑人進入診間之後坐在醫師的左邊當時那隻行兇的筆是放在醫師桌上的右手邊那位受刑人先把醫師右手邊的筆緩緩拿到醫師的左手邊放在桌上 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15339.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15357.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
後來拿起筆就往護理師方向過去攻擊護理師當時在那個診間沒有戒護人員發生事件之後診間走道上的兩位戒護人員就立即衝進去壓制受刑人 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15359.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15375.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
整間內這裡有個重點就是說整間內為什麼沒有戒護人員那為什麼放獸型人與這個醫護單獨處在一個空間內那這樣的戒護都沒有疏失嗎 矯正署 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15381.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15399.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
好 主席還有委員 針對剛才委員的一個提問就是針對東城監獄在10號發生這個雙人攻擊這個醫護人員的事件剛才委員提到了當時其實我們在整監其實都有有監護人員在戒護 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15399.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15425.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
但是他介護不是只有單純幾個人他整批帶過去看診大概也有數十個人那可能他站的位置大概當時可能是在這個外面的這個還看診區那真正他實際進入到診間去呢這部分我們一般介護人員並不會就是直接跟著他進去你說診間內有介護人員他另外診間還沒有我說那個看診區的地方他等待看診區後診區後診區 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15428.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15455.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
好沒有關係我不跟你討論細節啦但是發生的當下整間內或許空間狹小那沒有確實裡面在整間內沒有健護人員在裡面好所以這個部分我在這裡點出來這也是未來你們要要這個檢討的事情那是不是因為那畢竟只有一坪左右大小的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15456.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15482.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那這樣的一個空間是不是你們要繼續如果發生這樣的事件我想空間的大小也是為了你們要檢討的一個問題那承辦這個業務的醫院其實是非常的憤慨那他們也揚言說如果就是說未來繼續這個樣子都沒有改善的話他們要退出這個服務那根據這個台東縣護理師公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15486.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15504.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
在6月15日發表一個最新的聲明他們對這個事件也表達強烈的不滿並且提出四點的具體訴求包括立即要制定入監醫療安全指引建立完善的這個醫療暴力通報與應變處理機制而且要立法將 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15504.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15511.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
第一線醫護人員納入保護範圍以及這個全面檢討現行矯正機關的醫療服務契約內容以確保這個整個醫護人員的這個執行安全我想這些訴求不僅反映了這個基層的這個醫護人員的這個切身的需求更凸顯長期以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15527.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15546.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
矯正機關在醫療服務中這個安全保障機制的嚴重不足的這個結構性問題那我不知道說在這邊衛福部呢是不是在這個事件發生之後呢已經有立即跟這個矯正署來共同討論檢討如何改進了你們是不是已經有開會了有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15551.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15572.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
其實這個我們一樣是非常嚴厲的譴責這樣的一個情況我們與相關的單位我們也發表了聲明衛福部也發表了聲明部長我不是要你們衛福部發表聲明我的問題是你們有沒有跟剿政署共同來開會提出檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15576.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15595.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我們當時新聞稿是說我們將會與相關的單位好沒關係如果將會就不是出國的將會我希望你們立刻好不好在最短的時間內不然我跟你講這個醫療體系退出服務是很嚴重對他們受刑人權益也是一個傷害可以快一點嗎你們那邊講個時間點在什麼時候之內你要完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15603.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15617.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
我們跟小政單位馬上來進行那個在檢討整個做本來有個作業稀之那我想你們是不是兩個禮拜內因為畢竟這件事情已經發生一段時間我們兩個禮拜內就馬上來召開相關的聯繫會議檢討流程然後跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15623.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15648.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那因為根據自由時報的報導這個已經不是單一的事件因為近年來類似醫療暴力的事件在全國各地的這個監所都陸續發生例如在去年台北監獄跟高雄監獄都有類似的案例所以這個問題已經是一個就是說常年發生的問題必須我們要很嚴肅的來看待 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15652.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15657.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我想聚焦在東城監獄這件令人痛心的暴力事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15660.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15682.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
在這個當然在這個部分剛剛有提到就是說在管理的部分有一個也出現很大的漏洞在監所內對於這個危險物品的管理儲存有這個重大的瑕疵那收容人他如何能夠輕易取得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15682.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15709.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
尖尖的這個原子筆作為這個攻擊的工具也反映出說對這個高風險收容的這個風險評估還有這個無預警的機制這個是非常明顯不足的那我想在這個工會的護理師工會的這個訴求當中已經有特別強調就是說制定入監醫療安全指引這個部分那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15711.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15735.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那么我们再看在特约根据全民健康保险提供的矫正机关医疗服务计划里面特约医疗院所必须要承担来提供医疗服务的责任但是契约的内容几乎都没有提到风险保障还有安全协助的具体条款 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15736.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15755.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
好那這個在現實執行的這個環境的危險性其實看起來是明顯脫節同時我們在醫療法裡面24條還有106條雖然已經明定這個醫療暴力的刑事責任但是呢在這個矯正機關作為特殊 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15757.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15780.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
他們在矯正機關的這個特殊環境執法的保障保護的實際執行顯然是沒有辦法跟上這個法律的規範那我想在5月的時候莊惠雄委員質詢當中也有提出類似醫療暴力事件頻傳也需要法務部跟衛福部進行跨部會的合作跟系統性的解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15782.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15789.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
從第一個問題看起來你們目前都還沒有聚在一起所以我想我剛剛提的一切的一切希望你們兩個禮拜這個會議可以來啟動好 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15796.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15805.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那再來我想有另外一個兩個問題就是說我們要檢討一下這個現行醫療服務的執行規範有特別矯正機關有要求這個醫療團隊連續三天設診再連續假期 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15817.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15838.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
的時候那每天最多分為上午跟下午兩個時段那每個時段呢原則上三個小時並且至少就是說至少就是說間隔半個小時那這項規定本來就是說要確保這個受刑人的醫療需求跟穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15839.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15866.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
但是在執行當中也發生了嚴重的問題就是大家想一想連續三天高強度的執勤特別在介護人力有限的情況下顯著增加了醫護人員身心上的負擔也有可能就是說因為連續三天因為疲勞降低警覺性 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15867.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15892.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
好 所以從這個間接來提升安全風險那這個部分東城監獄的事件當中我們了解就是說這護理師正處於連續執勤的第三天那或許這個也是他就是說未能及時察覺危險因素的其中之一啦好 所以特別點出這個部分我不知道繳證署是不是也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15893.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15910.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
針對這三天的這個連續射診的規定有進行系統性的評估因為我想我的這個評估是因為如果有相關數據顯示這樣安排可以提升受診人的醫療品質然後減少疾病惡化然後降低轉診的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15911.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15926.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那當然這個是值得考慮但是就是說你到底有沒有充分的數據來支持能夠證明這項規定的必要性那再反過來看就是說連續執勤那導致這個醫護人員疲勞累積那也會影響這個診斷的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15934.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15940.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
準確性跟應變能力所以這個部分我不知道你們是不是有這個數據上的一個研究統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15943.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15963.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
從我們醫療的角度來看,真的醫院本身就已經業務繁重那在連續假期又要增多這樣的一個服務,其實壓力會非常大,我想連手裡面的介護人員恐怕都 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15965.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15982.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
人力都不一定有辦法來配合我們希望在看門診的時候其實在我們覺得應該是不是都要為了保護醫跟護因為醫療暴力零容忍所以如果在這個叫矯正機關裡面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15988.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16012.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
的人也應該是比較更需要去關心因為他可能情緒不好或怎麼樣所以基本上我以前我們很多學生到監獄裡面去看像雲林在哪裡很多台大醫院會面也負責很多其實他們都覺得很有意義但是無形中還是潛在的有他危險我聽了那麼久我是聽不到部長你的針對我的問題回答就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16017.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16025.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
因為要檢討嘛 你剛剛講這個問題我們都知道啊所以我是不是在這裡 具體檢討我是希望 因為這個是矯正機關矯正機關要求的啦 我想是不是說這個部分對 我剛剛問他嘛 部長搶著回答 我也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16035.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16062.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
對 說明一下 針對這個三天以上有連續假期要請這個我們的醫事的服務的契約的這些醫療機構來看診但這個根本的考量也是根據我們的一個目前我們在我想我們不談我們不談需求啦我這裡講你有沒有什麼應變的方式比如說把現行規定改為這個彈性排斑嘛或者是每週輪替的頻率增加嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16064.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16089.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
好對不對所以或者是你們要根據這個實際的這個醫療需求來做一個整個射診的時段的調整嗎這部分我們會跟衛生部在研議那目前這個根據是根據我們不得連續三天不得開封不得什麼連續三天不開封不開就是說不開什麼讓他們能夠從設防出來到工廠去洗澡運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16090.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16117.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
那尤其遇到長年假像明年的過年有九天的假期你不可能說都不讓他們出來洗澡或是看電視或是或是這個抽菸幹嘛那趁這個時間的時候因為這時間的假期太長我們也希望安排有醫療看診一定有需求的這樣的一個需求所以我們才會有這樣的一個規規範請衛護部或是真的相關的醫療機構對啦現在就是你們不能只考慮到受診人的需求嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16118.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16141.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
現在就是發生這樣的問題請你們一併檢討我剛提供幾個方法然後我已經沒有時間了但我提一個最後最嚴重的問題就是我們現在來就是說壽星人看診欠費的問題你要看一下這個欠費截至目前為止總共積欠了1278萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16150.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16158.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
這個統計只是現在在裡面的受刑人欠費的統計喔他們一旦畢業出監之後那些數據就 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16160.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16187.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那個一筆勾銷喔然後全部都要醫院自己想辦法去追討喔我想這個是非常不合理的醫院已經冒著生命的危險派人去監所裡面去提供服務了然後這些受刑人他無力負擔的時候你們要出監以後矯正室以後沒什麼事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16189.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16203.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
這個是這個是天大沒有道理的如果你們這個不改的話我呼籲不用我呼籲啦我告訴你已經有醫院的院長在跟我們講說我們要全面退出啦看你們怎麼辦啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16207.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16226.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
當然委員剛才講的這個1278萬是到今年4月底為止就是在間的部分現在只是4月 總計到4月而已他如果這個在間的部分我們現在目前的一些都有強制在跟他扣款而且積極在扣款 那也有聯繫他的家屬如果他沒有錢也會聯繫他的家屬來繳款 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16228.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16245.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
另外我們也有請他可以根據相關的健保法來申請這些減免或是要貸款等等的一個補助所以你的意思就是說那個醫院繼續自己去跟這些受刑人然後出監以後繼續去跟他們追討 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16247.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16261.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我這樣啦齁我在這邊提出具體的建議第一個要求你們回頭去統計已經出間的就是說積欠的費用到底有多少我們很想看看我們替這些醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16263.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16279.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
發聲一下到底還有多少錢沒有收回來我想看了以後搞不好都沒有醫院願意進去監鎖了然後我想這個其實是這個部分你們就是說有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16281.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16302.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
在這個我提出建議啦 就是說矯正署你們研議能否代電受刑人的支付額啦並且針對這個無力支付的這個個案進行後續的追討啦你怎麼不能叫醫院自己去討啊醫院還要忙著救別人 對不對難道醫院還要負責討債嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16304.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16324.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
再來就是說能否在這個醫療服務契約當中增添這個欠費補償的機制保障這個醫療機構的權益我想我就提出這兩個建議剩下的你們就繼續研議我要在你們就是說剛剛都說了種種一切的一切我們兩個禮拜內啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16327.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16347.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這樣子的會議衛福部跟矯正署好那你們這個欠費這個我給你們幾個月時間你們好好去研議好看要修要修哪裡你們的辦法要怎麼修就不要讓醫院進去承受這些風險出去討債你覺得他們會遇到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16348.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16370.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
如果有人出去我不知道他們未來是出監以後是什麼樣的狀況那天偷笑也是很恐怖的好嗎好就那個你的衛福部兩個禮拜啊那個監這個這個矯正署的欠費的一個月好謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16377.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16388.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
好 接下來請姚委員要來詢答請主席謝謝主席 主席請下秀部長來請部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16402.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16424.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
部長我們衛福部去年有預告修正了身心障礙法的權益保障那有關無障礙設施我們將合理調整跟通用設計這兩個概念入法對不對那我 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16425.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16437.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我今天先跟你們的團隊討論一下合理調整跟通通設計合理調整其實就是比較像個案來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16449.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16472.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那通案設計就是以後我們在不管環境、交通、資訊、通訊等各層面都要依照通案設計的原則來規劃算起來算是一個全面性的東西現在是這樣子就是有民團表示合理調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16474.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16497.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
會被誤用或者是被當成阻礙長期規劃的擋箭牌也就是說政府對於各項設施長期規劃改善的計畫讓國家邁向通用性無障礙環境會不會因為導入合理調整而延緩貴府府的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16504.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16532.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
不一定要部長回答我想不管是合理調整或通用設計都是國際的一個趨勢也是CRPD所提出來的名詞當然對於軟體硬體的一個合理調整整個通用設計更是有幾個原則在做整體性的處理基本上委員所提出擔心的部分是不是周代理市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16534.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16554.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
各位委員報告,現在無障礙設施的部分,規定在生存法的57條,它是一個義務,一定要遵守。合理調整是一個這次修法的過程比較新引進來的一個做法,國際上新的趨勢。目前在做法上面的話,我們是比較傾向於用一個指引的方式, |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16555.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16576.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
讓各個相關的主要的目的事業主管機關能夠在他的目的事業裡面去訂定怎麼樣去做合理調整那通用設計也是一個他沒有到無障礙的程度這麼高但是他是一個比較讓更多的人去更方便使用的一個觀念他其實稍微和無障礙稍微還是有一點點不一樣還是有一點差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16577.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16598.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
也就是說 因為我下一題就是剛剛您講的就是我們各項的無障礙設施其實它涉及很多不同的機關所屬權責那衛福部現在跟未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16600.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16608.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
到底怎麼去協調各部會把通用設計的理念逐步納入改善設施你們現在的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16617.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16639.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那目前有一些通用設計的一些比較這個一般性的概念那其實我們跟內政部這邊有在已經在這個建築技術規則建築物的那個無障礙設施設計的規範裡面他就已經一步一步的有在一步一步的去做導入了就是說那他不是只有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16640.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16663.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
針對無障就是身心障礙者之於使用那一步一步有在導入那另外在這個特殊教育法裡面那也把這些概念都一步一步的在導入學校的部分也在進一步的導入基金會大概也有透過一些產業的這種活動或者競賽來去做相關的觀念宣導或者引入我的意思呢就是這個涉及跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16664.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16686.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
的問題就是我們修我們的法可是同時也必須要橫向的跟其他的部會做統整的工作我們會跟各部會一起來相關的部會一起來努力就曾經身障者的個有一個個人助理制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16687.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16701.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
有個人助理制度就是他大概就是為了要照顧身心障礙者所以身心障礙者是可以透過申請來申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16705.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16728.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
個人助理那現在多數的地方政府都設有60每個月60小時的申請上限這個應該不是中央規定的不是可是地方政府多數都說是中央規定的這個部長知道嗎我們應該沒有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16731.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16746.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
我們目前是沒有去設定在一個60小時的上限地方政府之所以會規定大概是因為經費不足對不對服務量能跟經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16748.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16762.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
個人助理的部分他現在和如果他是同時可以個案同時可以使用長照服務的話其實在評估的過程就是他會把各種服務一起綜合性的去評估個案的需求用哪些各種各樣的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16765.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16777.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
對 可是其實我在想地方政府規定了60個小時當然有多少人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16780.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16805.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
預算才能支應多少服務量的那60個小時確實是可能對於某一些有在使用的身體傷害者是明顯不足的那這個部分請中央跟地方還是要去做一定的溝通最後問一個時事的題目就是自殺率的問題部長我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16809.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16824.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我們在113年十大死因統計自殺死亡首度突破4000人比前一年多了164那特別是15歲到24歲15歲到24歲的自殺率從2014年每10萬人5.1攀升到2023年 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16838.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16861.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
10.9也就是說從2014到2023增加了一倍增加了一倍那我們衛福部有計畫在提供15到45歲每一個人每一年三次免費的諮詢服務這個期限是到 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16863.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16887.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
2025年也就是今年年底會結束會不會延長這個應該一定會延長一定會延長喔一定會延長對因為我看你們的統計就是使用這項計畫的滿意度高達96%就表示這是一個很好的計畫那可是呢我最後再點出一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16888.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16917.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
就是這個方案在112年推出的時候每個月平均可以服務到接近3500人可是從去年從去年的7月到今年5月這11個月的平均量能降到只剩下2100人也就是說量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16918.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16930.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我們的統計就是服務的滿意度很高可是量能減少可是自殺死亡的人數增加不懂我的意思嗎這三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16938.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16954.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
這三個數據是有衝突的這時間的關係所以我讓你們待會去做研究參考好不好好就是說到底為什麼諮詢的效果我們覺得不錯可是呢來使用這個計畫的人數降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16964.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16971.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
然後自殺的人數增加這個可能到底盲點在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16976.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17002.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
跟委員報告我們在去年8月份的確是有把這個心理健康支持的方案的這個服務的對象有擴大到45歲那其實除了新建市這邊推動的這個心理健康的支持方案之外其實在教育部這邊他們也透過修正學生輔導法來增加校園的一個輔資的人力那另外呢其實相關的部會也有推動他們自己的心理健康支持的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17003.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17023.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
所以剛剛委員特別提到說使用我們的心理健康支持的方案感覺上人數是有減少這個其中一個可能的原因是因為相關的部會也有提供心理健康的支持各部會所以你這樣子的說法就是是從去年7月其他的部會才推出 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17027.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17045.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
應該是說相關的部會其實他們持續都有在推出這個心理健康支持的方案而且有在做一些滾動的修正所以說可能大家的這個服務方案越來越精進所以說不是除了衛福部的心理健康支持方案之外其實求助的管道也變多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17045.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17066.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
你這樣子的講法我可能沒有辦法接受不過我還是可以讓你們待會去跟各部會討論看看因為我剛才講的這三個數據確實是有衝突的我們來把真正的原因找出來好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17075.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17084.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
本部會議宣導全部結束委員謝龍介、楊瓊英、葉元之所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那先要做一下決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17088.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17107.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
第一 說明及宣導完畢第二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定第三 討論四項第三案有關於身心障礙者權利保障法部分條文修正草案 案 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17109.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17130.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
令擇期繼續審查那這部分我還是請部長這個要趕啦速度要趕一下 拜託一下因為剛剛你剛剛聽到廖委員講他一次飲用60個小時那個等於是一天兩個小時換委員的那個提供的是一天一個小時廖委員剛剛提供的飲袋是8小時 他還覺得不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17132.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17156.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
真的是非常有問題的一件事情我覺得你們行政機關如果趕快大步去做一些調整基本上應該是可以及時來做一些更好的處置對這些需求者我們一個大部面對一千多名的身障朋友提出來的個人助理竟然有這麼多的狀況我覺得這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17160.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17177.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
要討論的啦,要積極應應的啦,好,謝謝。好,那,呃,對不起齁,就令哲理繼續討論,所謂的申請法的23的案,然後再,我們現在先休息10分鐘, |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17180.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17206.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
讓各位用餐那用餐完之後我們就會討論事項第一案第二案來進行審查那宣讀事項還會有十幾分鐘那現在公告會議本案相關人員可以先行離席也就是說你不是第一案第一案的相關的官員你可以先行離席你有看到很多人已經吃飽了沒有吃飽了可以留下來吃飯現在休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們會繼續開會謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17215.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17215.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17217.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17218.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
很熱鬧很熱鬧很熱鬧很熱鬧很熱鬧 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18008.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18010.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
好 我們繼續開會那請醫事組醫事領域來做法案的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18015.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18037.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
老人福利法第48條條文修正草案委員劉建國等17人提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案現行法條文對照表委員劉建國等17人台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正第一項第三款首句文字丙等或丁等為不合格以及修正第四項第二句文字丁等為不合格予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18038.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18059.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
第一案第48條第一項第三款及第四款如下三違反第37條第三項規定規避妨礙拒絕檢查或未提供必要文件資料及協助四前三款外有其他重大情勢足以影響服務對象身心健康第四項前段如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18061.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18074.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
前二項停辦期間屆滿人為改善或令其停辦而拒不遵行者廢止其設立許可增訂第七項及第八項如下老人福利機構經主管機關評鑑評鑑不合格者 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18077.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18102.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
因限期令其改善借其未改善者处新台币六万元以上三十万元以下罚还借其未改善并得按次处罚请接重大者得处一个月以上一年以下停业处分停业期满人未改善者得废止期设立许可其属法人者得令其解散本法中华民国全年全月全日修正之事 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18103.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18117.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
條文施行前已經主管機關評鑑為平等或丁等之老人福利機構適用修正前之規定提案人委員劉建國蘇清泉連署人委員林月琴王振旭陳盈 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18118.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18136.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
現在宣讀身心障礙者權益保障法第53條條文修正草案委員徐宇珍等18人委員邱振軍等19人委員林月琴等17人委員陳金輝等18人台灣民眾黨黨團委員范雲等17人委員邱若驊等17人提案關西文書11006882號 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18139.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18165.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
委員盧明哲等19人委員傅坤祺等24人委員洪孟凱等17人委員邱若驊等17人提案關係文書11010755號條文對照表委員徐宇貞等18人提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需要者優先呈坐之博愛座予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18166.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18189.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
委員邱振均等19人提案第三項第二句與委員徐宇珍等18人提案同第四句文字座位修正為並第五項倒數第二句為空運及水運第六項後段首二句為單因大眾運輸工具構造頓好設備限制或其他特殊情形予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18191.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18220.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
委員林月琴等17人提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需要者優先乘坐之優先席第四句文字座位修正為並令刪除車門前之文字至第四項與手具文字運輸業者後面加逗號第五項倒數第二句為空運及水運第六項後段首二句為 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18221.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18233.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
但因大眾運輸工具構造、盾號、設備限制或其他特殊情形予以現行法同委員陳金威等18人提案第三項第三句及第四句如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18235.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18258.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
盾號老弱婦孺及有實際需求者優先乘坐之博愛座其比率不低於總座位數百分之二十予以現行法同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者及其他有實際需求者優先乘坐之優先座 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18259.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18281.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
莫具為並是需要標示或播放提醒禮讓座位與其他有實際需求者之僅與與與現行法同委員范雲等17人提案第三項第二句第四句以及第六項與委員林月琴等17人提案同與與現行法同委員邱若驊等17人提案關係文書11006882號 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18284.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18313.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
第三項第二句與台灣民眾黨黨團提案同予以現行法同委員盧明哲等19人提案第三項第二句為為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需求者優先乘坐之優先席予以現行法同第四項及第六項與委員林月琴等17人提案同第五項倒數第二句為空運及水運等予以現行法同 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18314.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18329.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
委員傅坤祺等24人提案第三項守據為大眾運輸工具應考量通用設計之概念並規劃設置便於各類身心障礙者行動與使用之無障礙設施及設備並於聚墨增列 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
18330.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18347.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
公車停靠站應依周遭環境配置並設置身心障礙者專用停靠搭車區予以現行法同委員洪孟凱等17人提案第三項第四具文字座位修正為並予以委員魯明哲等19人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18348.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18360.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
委員邱樂華等17人提案關係文書11010755號第三項前三具與委員陳金輝等18人提案同予以現行法同繼續宣讀修正動議第一案第53條 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18363.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18380.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
修正第二項文字設政主管機關為社會福利主管機關修正第三項第二句如下為提供對號坐之大眾運輸工具應設置供身心障礙者或有其他實際需要者優先乘坐之優先席 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18381.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18406.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
並修正第四句文字座位為並第四項首句國內航空運輸業者後面增列逗號修正第五項文字空運後面之頓號為及第六項及第七項與委員林月晴等17人提案同予以現行法同提案人委員劉建國蘇清泉連署人委員林月晴陳瑩王正旭宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18452.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18462.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
好 謝謝 現在進行老人福利法第48條條文修正草案 計兩案之討論先請行政單位說明 接著再請委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18468.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18482.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
還有兩個提案,一個修正動議修正動議是行政機關認可的請說明今天兩位委員我們今天要在台上,因為所有人都還在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18484.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18512.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
好 等一下如果有意見要表達的時候就請到備詢台這樣因為手影都還在現場OK 好 請說明 來跟各位委員報告那這個這條委員版的修正的目的其實主要就是希望讓現行老人福利法的條文和長照服務法的條文對於這一類同樣收住同樣類似機構同樣性質類似的個案那在管理機制上也能夠一致所以我們建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18514.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18532.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
方向上我們敬表尊重那在法治文治的技術的部分我們建議是不是可以考慮參採劉委員今天有出來的一個修正動議那委員可以參看那我簡單的說明一下就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18533.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18560.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
現行的老人福利法的部分如果我們這個他如果憑鑒不合格的結果照原來的條文那他仍然會和長照服務法中間會在後續的憑鑒不合格的效果上面會有處理先後稍微有一點點不一致長服法會直接先限改再處罰還但是如果是照老人福利法原來這個提案修正版本的話會不會先處罰還同時命限改 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18563.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18580.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那個兩邊的那個流程會不會太一致那考慮到現在這個剛才這兩類機構其實目前在市場上第一個是行政機關有很多現在把兩類機構都放在同一個單位管理那第二個也有很多的機構實際上大概是由同一個經營團隊在營運 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18582.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18603.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那我們會建議在法制上是不是有可能就盡可能取其完全一致所以我們建議是可以採取這個劉建偉劉委員的這個修正動議的版本那主要的差距就是在把現行條文第三項的這個經主管機關平建偉秉等丁等的部分刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18604.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18619.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
然後第三款第四款對調因為考慮到文字的關係對調另外在這個這一條後面增加兩項那就是把現行長符法對於這個評鑑不合格的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18620.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18646.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
他后续的处理就全部规定在最后两项里面那就是凭借不合格的话因限期改善借其未改善处六万以上三十万以下罚还借其未改善按次处罚情节重大者得处一个月以上一个月以下对不起我们建议这个文字稍微再调一下就是停业处分改成停办处分因为老扶法这边这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18648.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18675.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
老服法上面停業專門使用在對機構自己申請我暫時不營運用停業主管機關處分大概現在我們去檢索一下大概都是用停辦所以我們建議第三項後面這個就是一個月以上印一下停辦處分停辦期滿人為改善者得廢止其設立許可那其屬法人者得令其解散 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18676.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18690.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那大概我們會建議文資做這樣處理那另外考慮到一個過渡性的條文就是後面會有一個修正條文實行前已經評定的部分的話那就還是他讓他評定效期可以處理不用馬上要去他會變成沒有評鑒的會變成沒有評鑒效果以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18695.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18696.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
主席的指示謝謝主席主席我想要請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18718.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18735.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
身心障礙區域保障法的53條修正53條修正部長不好意思現在在處理老年福利華不是說兩個可以一起但是條文的討論是一條一條來嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18736.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18738.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
現在進行老人福利法第48條條文修正草案的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18768.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18779.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
剛剛微服部提出來的我比較擔心的是說因為你現在在後邊針對於本來過去評鑑事實上是加以稟定有牽扯到後端的輔導甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18782.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18809.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
也就是他們能不能再繼續辦教育訓練的課程的這相關都有關聯性現在如果當然我覺得還是同意說你講說不合格我想問的是說後邊如果你改成不合格的話未來你怎麼去處理因為過去我們不管是各類的機構大概已經要進入到假以稟定事實上定一定事實上是要被停止嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18811.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18838.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
甲乙丙的話 輔導的機制上可能也不太相同 甚至你們可能給的一些的也就是說 辦教育訓練的那個額度上也不太一樣 那在這樣狀況底下你們先把它拿掉 到底會不會有影響 還是說今天純法條 我們今天只是說因為不合格 不合格就60分以下嘛好 那就等於是丁嘛 那你的甲乙丙的話 你怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18839.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18841.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
可以先做一個說明讓你了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18845.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18870.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
跟委員報告目前如果我們直接把等地兌換對接到合格不合格的話那合格的部分應該會制止現行的優甲椅秉丁大概都會列到不合格秉丁都會列到不合格那我們也已經這個行政部門也已經做過一個盤點針對這樣的一個制度調整之後後續不管是委員所提示的教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18871.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18895.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
公費安置資格甚至有一些相對應的可能會不會有一些補助計畫一些是不是只針對優等假等這一類的整個補助計畫的部分可能會涉及到行政部分的一些後續的操作我們大概都先都同步進行了一些盤點那這個如果制度在調整完之後我們都會配合著行政部分有些計畫或者是補助等等我們大概都會做相對應的整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18896.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18923.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
包括因為過去我們在看機構大概也有甲乙尤其是甲乙都還是會有一個輔導機制在那邊所以這個如果沒有這樣子的話能搭配的未來還是這個是會執行嗎原則上這個現有大概我們就會對到如果對於甲乙的部分那合格當然對到合格那盡可能我們措施能夠保留的我們就會保留那但是有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18923.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18949.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
你想保留什麼 因為合格不代表它事實上品質優它是最基本門檻 優大沒有問題 可是現在甲乙的話不管過去在拖延中幼兒園 他們都還是要變成是被輔導的那你們這邊還是會持續做嗎未來原則上針對合格現有甲乙兩級原來有的會做的那因為變成合格之後 我們還是會繼續操作好 宇森 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18952.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18954.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
針對於第48條我沒有搞錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18976.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18991.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
就是如果透過這個修正動議啊我可能有一些事情也要麻煩確認一下就是我們把第48條從現行條文調到這個修正動議以後的內容包括說部份隊有123在 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18996.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19012.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
現行條文裡面是經主管機關評鑑為瓶頂或釘等然後等等的處分需要做公告其名稱跟負責人的姓名還有限期改善那現在如果我們把它修正以後那變成第一項的前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19013.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19041.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
四款就是如果有出現前四款這樣的現象或的狀況的時候呢他就可以公告其名稱跟負責人的姓名跟限期令其改善這個部分沒問題那後面在第八項又增列了老人福利機構經主管機關評鑑評鑑不合格者應限期令其改善那如果不怎麼樣等等的那就會變成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19043.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19048.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
如果他是被判定是不合格可是又沒有前面四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19049.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19072.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
就是第一項的前面四款的狀況之下那就變成是反而是放寬就是說你要讓他先有限期改善的機制清醒以後才開始進行處分跟公佈這樣未來會不會有類似的狀況的出現這一點可能要麻煩先確認或了解一下再過來就是說有關於我們在剛剛月群委員提到福利機構的評鑑依照現行是 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19074.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19088.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
分為優等甲乙丙丁那如果是優等的我們很希望讓社會多了解這家機構做得非常好所以它得到這個優等的這個評鑑那它可以讓外界知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19090.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19104.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
他這個對於整個品質的這個自我要求還有對於民眾如果到這個機構來接受服務的話這可以很放心那如果未來我們只改成合格跟這個不合格那這樣對於一個機構來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19106.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19131.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
會不會說反正合計就好了社會有沒有辦法去把這個當他們得到優等的時候這樣的這個成果讓社會也能夠認同也能夠讓這個機構可以執行了更為他們更願意把這個品質作為他們一個持續要求自我能夠服務到的部分所以我是說這樣的調整是非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19131.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19150.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
可是相對有哪一些的配套措施也希望能夠同步來處置跟委員報告因為這個我們現在看這個修正動議的內容我們是希望我們建議是說他未來能夠跟長符法的處理的機制是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19150.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19169.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
所以確實是他現在內容跟老扶法的規定會有一些不一樣的地方那不過針對公告機構名稱的部分因為評鑑的部分他本來就是不管他是合格或者是不合格這個部分他當然就是評鑑結果一定都會公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19170.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19199.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
合格的也會公告,不合格的也會公告所以民眾在知道評鑑結果這一段其實他還是會維持,效果是一樣的那因為他整個機制調整成他如果不合格會先限改所以大概照一般法制的做法限改期間不會馬上去公布他的姓名那這個會跟那這個部分調整的結果確實會跟現行的長符法是用一致的方式來處理那委員提示的第二個部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19202.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19205.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
抱歉委員是說這個有考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19207.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19230.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
我應該好我先一個是公告姓名然後第二個我稍微再問一下我現在在問什麼就是說如果用現行條文的話出問題優等的部分不是是可以立即就啟動了處分因為它已經違反了這個相關的要件所以它就可以立即啟動處分如果我們現在把它調整以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19232.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19244.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
萬一他沒有違反這個第一項的前面四款的狀態之下他是被判定是屬於不合格那你回來給他一個寬限期這樣其實是相對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19248.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19272.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
當然這個我們也要去確認一下有沒有可能出現這樣的狀況如果這個是零機會的話我們就不擔心嘛那萬一是有機會出現說這個機構是不合格可是他又沒有回返1234這樣的狀態之下其實這樣的放寬我們還是要很小心那第二部分就是說有等因為像以醫院評鑑為例如果我們一家醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19273.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19284.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
他被評鑑是優等的時候他就很高興的說我是優等當然合格也是一種表達方式只是說以前之前的這個我們可以透過優等這樣的這種讓社會讓這個機構知道他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19289.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19316.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
品質是可以受到信賴的這個有比較優於只是用合格來表達出大家評鑑的結果啦是跟委員報告評鑑優等的部分那站在跟老扶法和長扶法接軌的就是這個規定一致的這樣角度來看的話我們未來修正老人福利機構評鑑的規定修正因為他也有授權去訂評鑑的作業辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19318.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19340.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
在平建作業辦法裡面我們也會參考現在長照服務機構的平建作業的規定它一樣就是針對平建優等的部分它另外有一個就是合格裡面特別好的有一個優等的定義原則上我們也會參考這樣的機制後續在老服務機構的平建裡面我們把這樣的架構也會納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19341.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19362.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
所以這個特別用心的老服機構他還是有一個可以讓他去表彰他做的很好的方向這個我們會來我們會一併來納進來在授權的法規裡面來處理好好謝謝那針對48條前面的部分就是我剛所在重複說明了那部分了解這還是要先 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19364.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19385.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
先確認看看就是有沒有可能出現這種告息不合格可是又沒有辦法去第一時間就讓社會知道這一家其實在要把我們的這些我們長者要送到這個機構的時候要注意的事情報告召委這樣對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19387.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19393.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
是啦,我認為代理署長可能會說他對阿扁引渡回來,結果他就被投行逮捕了這有點危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19404.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19419.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
危險知道齁今天特別提到那個記憶有些狀況可能就要小心一點好不好所以以後要答覆這個委員的槌選就他講123你就直接回答123你不要從321回覆齁回到最後你1就忘記了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19421.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19440.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
他的意思就是好像感覺比現有這樣的一個規範更鬆啦但是現有規範是直接就告發了嘛對不對但是現在感覺還有讓他限期改善但是他後面有個但書他是可以連續按次處罰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19442.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19464.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
之前只有一次華應該這麼講,我可以這樣解釋嗎?是不是有解除汪委員的疑慮?看怎麼樣的解釋都可以,我是這樣他最主要是比照護理之家還有長照機構的處理方式原則上是這樣謝謝委員我講完你講完再講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19468.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19471.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
沒有沒有沒關係 陳昭司委 不好意思那我再請問 謝謝就是教委跟衛福部很快就是把這個能夠這個評鑑辦法一致化不要有等地制的有合格跟不合格是可以或不可以那這樣有一致的評鑑方法那剛剛對於停辦跟停業的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19493.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19516.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
好像我們現在就是也清楚了因為有不同的定義那我想請教一下那個剛剛王正修也特別提到對於優等的部分那個鼓勵措施因為剛剛也以醫院評鑑為例過去是像醫院評鑑如果被列為優等的時候他被評鑑的時間或是他享受他可以的那個時間是比較長的那我們這裡現在有任何鼓勵措施嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19520.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19542.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
就是說比較具體的鼓勵措施對優等 謝謝代理署長跟委員報告現行的老人福利機構它的評鑑效期是都一致的優甲等跟乙等它的效期還是一致的目前是略分開請問現在多久評鑑一次四年現在也是四年評鑑一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19543.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19550.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
四年評鑑一次但是優等也是一樣也是一樣目前優等沒有特別延長四年評鑑一次是不是有點長 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19552.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19581.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
沒關係這個可以再請斟酌一下考慮因為即便醫院是一般是三年就要評鑑一次這四年當中的變化改革等等等等這個可能還是再考慮一下那個評鑑的反正大家都是一致化就所有長照體系現在就是一致化的來管理那剛剛你說四年一次我現在瞭解那限期改善部分有沒有定一個限期的部分當你發現有缺點的時候就是那個限期有明定方法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19583.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19606.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
有明定他的時間嗎那可以改善幾次等等是不是也有一致的這個目前現期改善是只有一次那改善的期間那就看他當時評鑑不合格的項目就平等或丁等那個造成他最嚴重的項目那短的大概會只有一個月那時間到就開始進行負評的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19608.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19636.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
那最長有到 我記得有到六個月的六個月內讓他完期的 完 完全改善有的如果是比較 尤其是如果是涉及到硬體的部分他給的改善期間會稍微長一點OK 那謝謝 因為過去你這個放在甲乙丙丁 不管是形象問題還有很多後來的申請補助等等有時候我們知道就差一分嘛70到79 然後到80就完全是不一樣的等地嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19637 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19651.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
他們對他們來說整個這個壓力為了那一分整個書面作業做的這個非常努力這個部分謝謝但是我剛剛聽到說多久評鑑一次四年評鑑一次我真的請代理師長能夠好好的思考一下四年有很久喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19652.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19679.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
就任何事情可能這個主管人或誰誰工作人員都已經不要換幾輪了那整個的品質是否能夠繼續維持或是說你們也可以對因為這個需求越來越大你們也可以有一些抽查的機制那些抽查機制就是讓他有機會能夠去改善那到底改善多少時間我想我就尊重行政機關的一個做法好嗎就是在這個評鑑的頻率然後有時候會可以去抽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19680.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19688.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
那就是說等等等等或是使用者他們有一些反應的時候因為4年真的很久好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19691.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19714.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
這個可以考慮一下嗎我們到時候在評鑑的辦法的那個設計裡面我們再來做一點處理那另外也跟委員報告目前雖然是評鑑都是四年做一次但是正常每年或者其他對於機構的有一些這個支持性的一些計畫大概也都還是有搭配對於機構的一些檢查或者是輔導這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19715.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19742.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
這大概都會在四年之內,都會有一些隨機性的一些動作有申請計畫的時候會再做一次,等於再做一次確認整個品質的一個確認對,這個部分也都有這樣也很好,好謝謝,那就謝謝趙委員提案跟衛福部及時修正,謝謝好,謝謝趙執委員的推薦來,梁委員你還要嗎?現在是處理A老化第四、八條就很奇怪了,這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19743.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19758.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
心智上有點OK好好那我們福利福利華第48條文就依劉委員等在座應該都是所有的委員的修正動議在修正後通過好謝謝接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19761.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19783.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
做以下決議 讓胡麗華第48條條文修正草案計兩案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論那院會討論本案時由劉昭維 劉昭吉委員建股補充說明那請問本案是我虛交由黨團協商好好不需要謝謝現在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19784.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19797.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
身心障礙者權益保障法第53條條文修正草案第11案之主條審查那每條條文先請行政單位說明接著再請委員來表示意見那行政單位要不要先說明剛在有關第18條的立法說明也要進入到這個相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19811.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19826.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
好 另外說明會一併 因為修正都有 我們的說明都有在影片會一併 好那先請行政機關針對這個生存法第53條來做一個說明 晚上再請楊委員然後再來看哪一位 再接續來做推選好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19833.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19855.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
跟召委及各委員報告這次申請法第53條的部分其實各個委員中間的版本基本上來說觀念方向都還算相近大概在文字上面會稍微有一點點不一樣的地方第一個是現行條文的老弱婦孺是不是有刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19855.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19870.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
那有的委員是有維持有的委員版本有維持有的委員版本大概還是先維持住那第二個是對於這個將來席次用的名稱那目前有使用博愛座優先座或者是優先席 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19870.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19890.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
大概有三類委員用的文字稍微有點不一樣以博愛做來說大概是我們看到是徐宇甄委員、邱振軍委員、陳金威委員、邱若驊委員的版本用優先做的部分那是民眾黨黨團的版本和邱若驊委員的另外一個版本使用優先席的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19890.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19900.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
看到是林月琴委員版本范雲委員盧明哲委員以及洪孟凱委員的版本大概三個委員大概在這個上面稍微有一點不同那唯一只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19902.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19921.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
富坤級委員的版本在文字上面稍微不太一樣他還在這個條53條裡面還納進一個通用設計的部分那我們的意見是我們建議是不是考慮就是如果是可能的話是不是可以考慮第一個在文字精簡的角度來看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19923.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19951.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
我們會建議是不是老弱婦孺的這個部分的文字就不使用那文字統一我們會建議是不是以這個我們先前行政院在研擬的時候我們會考慮建議是不是用優先席那一方面也幫這個開玩笑說也幫台鐵已經貼上去的標誌他就用優先席可以稍改一點點那這個大概是這樣這個大概是我們初步的建議那請各位委員參考謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19955.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19980.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
這個這個欸 署長你有有有回應不清楚的喔 勞動互補即便拿掉之後還是會有其他文字代替啦 叫做或有其他實際需要者啦這幾乎所有的委員都有這一句這幾乎所有的委員都有這一句是這樣啦 補充說明而已 好好 還要補充嗎沒有沒有了 沒有就請回吧好 謝謝委員好 OK來請楊委員 要完了之後再請 越請委員 再請昭知委員好好 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19984.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20005.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
謝謝主席 主席請一下署長請署長署長我們這個修正不管老弱富足有沒有留著都會有其他實際需要者 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20007.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20034.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
那我想要剛剛我聽署長的意思是老幼復足您覺得可以刪掉我們建議可以刪除老幼復足跟其他實際需要者以我的看法我覺得最大的差別就在主客觀認定譬如說身心障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20035.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20062.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
老弱富足可能是比較屬於客觀認定實際需求是我個人我個人認為我有需求對不對其實我們之所以會修正這個條文呢最主要的就是因為博愛座之前確實發生了一些一些爭端那現在你們對於對於我 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20065.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20087.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
我其實也是支持把其他需要者優先乘坐這樣子的概念入法只是要跟署長講的是很多東西還是必須要只有透過法律的修正並沒有辦法解決一切的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20089.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20102.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
這個條文就最適用於剛才那一句話就是說還是必須要透過教育跟宣導要不然條文怎麼修爭議都會存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20105.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20131.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
是不是 是 確實如委員所說所以未來在這個剛才昭偉在在詢答的時候有提示我們有要求我們就是跟交通部這邊來配合未來在執行面的部分不管是宣導或者是相關的標示怎麼樣能夠做得更清楚更完整那這個部分的話那我們也會努力的來朝這邊讓未來操作的時候民眾使用會更方便標示宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20133.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20161.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
還要加教育啦我覺得就是就是我們這一次修法只是把純客觀認定的東西又加了一個主觀就個人主觀的認定我有沒有優先那我覺得這個沒有加上教育跟宣導問題會比原本的條文更容易產生糾紛 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20163.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20175.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
知情面我們會提醒你們一下知情面我們會這個宣導的部分我們會努力的來加強這個行政部門一定會努力來做好 謝謝署長 謝謝委員接下來請林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
20201.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
20221.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
主席可以講話嗎我們現在是主張改名為優先洗我想剛剛院本也是這樣為什麼引用澳日的經驗的話就是用優先洗不過剛剛我們養藥委員當然有提到說如果事實上是眼睛肉眼可見的話原來的那個老弱婦孺 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
20223.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
20249.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
那有些委員有放有些委員沒放可是我建議還是不要放因為我覺得會有爭議很多時候都是先如果老弱婦孺如果名字改成優先席的時候老弱婦孺那個老又是會放在前面那這幾年幾乎發生的媒體呈現的都是老人跟我們的青年發生這樣子一個認為說我 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
20251.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
20262.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
年紀比較大你要浪作一個是覺得說因為我有需求啊所以如果改成優先席的話那我認為在這邊應該事實上是有實際需要的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
20264.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
20289.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
甚至有時候很多時候不外坐已經都車子很空也沒有人坐的時候大家也都不敢坐所以這時候沒有其他人需要的話就是我沒有其他座位的時候我就可以優先坐優先坐這個我覺得應該要考量的是這個因為有時候外表看不出來可是有時候空間上就是我有需要的時候我是不是就可以先來坐所以誰優先這不是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
20290.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20311.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
別人來認知我自己認知我自己有需要的時候那我當然也認為剛剛楊教委員提的很對就是說這個還是要透過教育可是我覺得就是說今天衛福部後來明明有搭配的措施像宣導媒宣去強化這個概念所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20311.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
20327.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
也希望你們能夠漸漸的減少掉如果改為優先席的時候要漸漸的把這個對立的狀況齁能夠拿掉齁以上是謝謝委員好謝謝林委員嘿再請招致委員嘿我們再請歡愉委員齁謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
20330.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
20333.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
謝謝主委 第一個有關優先作法當然我不會非常的堅持但是那個座 你先坐那個座就是代表名詞跟動詞優先座很口語化優先席比較老人或等等就是說席次其實這個是比較文言文所以我的版本裡面是優先座 你先坐嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
20352.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
20367.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
所以名詞跟動詞都兼顧當然剛剛這個代理市長說已經有人先動了對不對但是他事實上你也現在同意說他的很多字其他的字眼也是要改嘛也是要改嘛這第一個就是說我我希望是用優先做的理由是這個我剛剛就 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
20368.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
20383.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
很清楚很簡單你選擇就是你可以選擇這是第一個那第二個就是說這個我也同意這個老肉婦孺這個部分因為很主觀有人到七八歲還是很健康有人可能四五歲那個老包括這個壯士大家都會對定義不清楚那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
20387.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20407.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
這個部分這個字眼這個字眼我也同意就是說不放進來剛剛您也做說明那第三個我現在再確認一次我們這間做法這個是做法不是雖然例子很多發生在捷運等等但是這個是公共運輸的作為請問我可以請代理市長再確認一下這是試用範圍嗎就我們今天改了這個以後試用範圍你可不可以稍微念給我聽試用範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20410.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20418.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
原則上我們常見的不管是公車、鐵路、高鐵都會適用這個部分都會適用就是捷運嘛對捷運也會適用應該沒有遺漏這幾個我們常用的大眾運輸工具都會適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20427.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20441.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
常用的 有不常用的嗎就是一體試用嘛就是有曾經有被安上這個所謂的博愛座的就是現在在試用的交通運輸工具的範圍現在有在試用的不會因為這個這一次的校正 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20442.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
20461.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
那另外就是說過去我們曾經有人戴著公益團體的名稱穿著背心那他就是覺得扮演那個所謂的這個叫別人做好事的那自己就叫人家站起來就是他會說你要站起來讓這個人作戰我想你聽過吧代理你聽過吧對不對那我們可不可以禁止這些行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
20462.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
20479.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
目前在條文上面我們是沒有禁止人家去勸人家去那個啦那這個這一段我們是還是維持一個比較鼓勵第一個是坐在這種優先座位上的民眾那如果有看到有比他更需要的那能夠主動的來鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
20481.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
20509.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
但是我們不要別人來給好心或是說你來做這個我們就建立在一個大家公民素養跟群眾宣導的部分我們來做這樣的宣導這些穿背心的所謂的公益團體他也不知道那個多的人是不是不舒服啊你不能看他年輕就覺得他不會不舒服啊你站起來你怎麼扭這個多他是用眼睛去看的所以他我覺得這個行為還是盡量不要你當然沒辦法明文禁止但是是應該可以就是看到了就不准他們做 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20509.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20527.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
因為他們會上車來然後就在車上一天到晚叫他起來讓別人坐現在確實已經有一些宣導的訊息那確實在宣導說也要注意到有一些需求者他也許是屬於隱性的需求也不是那個所謂的公益者他能看得懂啦那就我還是請考慮雖然我不會覺得但是這個優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20533.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20544.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
做 我覺得這個動詞跟感受是很清楚 謝謝好 謝謝委員的指正 謝謝好 謝謝趙志偉的意見謝謝市長 我感覺先不用回去了來 請 歡迎委員來做詢問 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
20552.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
20568.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
謝謝昭薇我想我們今天審查的這個不愛做改憂先習看起來是跨黨派的共識那當然大家希望說最近很多的衝突包含前幾天才有基隆的學生讓作後還被當眾標罵的事情在社群 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
20569.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
20595.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
就是轉傳 可見就是說這裡面有一些世代間的衝突讓做爭議那衛福部未來如何用教育或者是推廣宣傳的方式跟交通部合作也是大家的期待那我自己認為說優先席的設置那就應該是明文寫有需要的人優先乘坐使用那身體不適的年輕人有需要也可以做那用優先席的名字更能夠符合設置的本意 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
20596.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20625.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
那老弱婦孺譬如說婦對不對我們就有性別平等的問題那她有懷孕的婦女當然需要可是不是所有的婦所以我覺得就是說證明很重要那目前我們可以看到不管是日本韓國很多世界上非常多的大眾運輸都是設優先席英文都是Priority Seat那執意的話優先席就是優先使用你有這個優先權那當然就是很多人會發現不愛做的名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20626.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20644.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
好像是威權時代的產物那從轉型正義民主國家世界接軌的話我想更名為又先習那也是我們大眾運輸或者我們在概念上接軌世界的表現以上是好謝謝委員好謝謝其他委員要表示意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20645.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20658.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
那沒有的話,剛剛趙志偉是建議他的要用優先做啦其他是希望優先洗,沒關係,來林委員請問怎樣這個是修正動議可以啊可以啊,請上來還是要一台一個版本來講都可以我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20675.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20698.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
這是衛福部版本嗎不知道為什麼特別所有的我看查過很多法規都叫設政主管機關你這邊特別改成社會福利主管機關的考量是什麼因為我不管查很多法都是設政主管機關所以我不知道而你這法特別要去改成社會福利主管機關想就叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20702.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20730.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
你考量的是什麼?跟委員報告齁這個部分其實是某個角度也是接軌我們後續現在正在行政院審查中就是還沒有通過的申請法的修正草案那目前在申請法修正草案裡面主管機關就是第二條的部分主管機關的部分有做一個調整那那個條文裡面目前我們大概在跟行政院報到行政院的條文裡面大概已經不是用設政主管機關我覺得不是說為了銜接那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20731.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20744.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
通過嘛 我現在想問的是說那你很多法律 幾乎我們看警政啦 衛政啦 社政啦 護政都用這個那我不知道這個為什麼特別在這邊要去做改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20746.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
20765.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
當初我們會建議做一個條件就是如同剛才和委員報告那就是這個是不是有可能去做一個跟後續委員也很關心趕快要送進來的這個申請法的部分條文修正條案能夠做一個搭配那如果是今天通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
20766.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
20793.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
那當然我們也會 如果還是參照現有的立法例以設政機關這樣的文字的話那我們就會跟行政院 我們也會在行政院審查的過程裡面跟行政院做一個報告 那是不是還那反過來問你說 那你們送去的那為什麼要叫社會福利主管機關可不可以說明 因為以前我說我查了很多法之前的都沒有 不管是新憲犯罪防治法 新聞學這些都是用設政 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
20796.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
20810.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
因為現行主要的考慮是說這個大概在講社政我們大概比較習慣稱之為社會行政那但是因為我們也考慮到說在前一兩年剛剛通過社會福利基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
20811.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
20839.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
那他對於主管機關大概就是希望說針對社會福利的主管那也是希望我們在這一次第一個在社會福利基本法修完定定完以後那第一個修正的一個比較大的主管法規裡面那我們想說是不是有可能把主管機關的名稱就搭配社會福利基本法就用社會福利主管機關上的文字所以你的意思是說現在社福基本法通過未來你所有的法都要改成社會福利主管機關嗎未來如果有可能的話我們就會逐步來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
20844.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
20845.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
這兩個名詞大概都有在使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
20852.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
20880.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
不過社政的法規裡面傳統社政法規裡面大概都是用社政比較多那其他的法規裡面包括像國際法、洗線防治法這個監獄刑刑法等等大概甚至連我們先前所訂定的身心障礙者鑑定作業辦法裡面大概也都會用社會福利主管機關所以這兩個名詞目前都有在使用並沒有坦白說等於是一個不太統一的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
20882.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
20906.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
確實有點不太同意 社政比較多社會福利相對少一點但是確實是兩個名詞都有在使用中所以未來會應社福基本法而去做調修其他的法律嗎可能的話我們會一步一步來處理謝謝委員各位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
20908.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
20925.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
是不是看整個修正動議有沒有其他意見?剛剛有表達陳昭志委員所謂的優先做,給各位做參考看各位委員有沒有其他,有的是講優先席其實席位是連在一塊就好,一席、兩席、一位、兩位、席位、席位現在你存在台T |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
20935.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
20964.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
對啦,我們都不會說的時候,代替就已經,已經創,這個地方要參考一下,這個代替所以,這都沒經過副市長動議就搞出這個事情不是,這跟你沒關係,我是要說的給你聽啦所以,所以這就是,要怎麼說,這是這個,給各位看一下,等一下給委員參考啦然後這個,今天還有,其他委員有提供一些訊息啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
20968.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
20990.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
高鐵在博愛座,日本也叫做優先席然後還有韓國好像也是,沒關係各位這個交給我參考一下這個不會因為一個字就大家搞了南邊北側,不至於大家先看一下,這個字很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
20991.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
21015.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
這一次跟我們在座每一席都非常重要,跟每一位也都是息息相關所以叫做謝偉謝偉,席位席位副大局有分下去嗎?先一併宣讀副大局,讓大家思考一下現在收到這個副大局議案,請議事院員宣讀副大局的內容再請行政機關表示意見,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
21016.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
21038.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
請交通部會商衛福部就優先席標示訂定統一圖示供各大眾運輸工具業者運用統一全國一致性標示並請交通部會同衛生福利部研議優先席多元宣導措施請各大眾運輸工具業者共同宣導並服以人員廣播提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
21039.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
21065.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
讓社會大眾發揮禮讓精神及同理心並尊重他人使用權力提案人委員劉建國、連署人委員楊耀、林月琴、王振旭、陳盈、陳昭芝、范雲宣讀完畢他們在討論那個字眼的時候你要先回應這個互代決議有沒有什麼樣的意見可以表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
21070.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
21074.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
這個有點主客觀的問題啦你們可以敲碗之後再回應沒關係來請可以可以王智希委員針對互代決議的吧還是席位好沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
21092.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
21119.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
我想大家對於那個席位還是座位本身如果從英文來看SEAT它的第一個發音是S就是比較跟席比較相近所以我想如果我們這樣從中英文等等的也許請趙志偉也可以讓針對這個字眼能夠做一些認同那就先席這樣聽起來會比較好拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
21121.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
21140.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
好 那他們還在討論附帶決議 我們就來處理這一條這個其實我們的修正動議請各位委員都可以連署各位的認同就可以連署 好不好好 那我們這個身心傷害者權利保障法第53條的條文就是以修正動議劉靜國等所有委員 現場的委員修正動議後通過好 謝謝來 現在處理附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
21158.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
21177.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
這件事應該是有三個層次問題今天我想大家大致上的面向都有提出來不只是個規格化圖改標準化修法的內容去做一些調整然後最主要是宣導另外一個執行面我特別有跟副市長還有代理市長講說你的這個列車長你的這個政務的人員還是車廂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
21183.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
21210.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
這個服務人員如果面對所謂的不管是其他實際需求者的一個認定可能都要有一些你們一些相關的一些規範跟作為流程好來請正事委員我並不是主張要百分比那我是瞭解說像這個優先席有沒有百分比的限制謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
21213.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
21224.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
跟委員說明就是現行條文這次跟剛才動議修正通過的條文現在都是維持總作業數15%是15%這算多還少我也不知道就說還不少 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
21234.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
21244.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
謝謝 謝謝說明好 謝謝前委員 來好 那也跟昭緯提供一個委員報告那個剛才昭緯這邊提的主要提的這個負擔決議我們會順道辦理好 謝謝好 前委沒有意見了那本案負擔決議就照案通過 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
21255.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
21276.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
作為下決議 身心障礙者權利保障法第五三條 條文修正草案 暨十一案審查完略 並按鄰近審查報告提報 願會討論那願會討論本案時 劉召集委員見過補充說明那請問本案是我交由黨人協商好 不需要 謝謝那本會議到此結束 星期三早上九點繼續開會 現在休息 謝謝大家 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
21283.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
21291.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
請各位委員來到這一個前面跟部長還有代理署長拍個照我們大家一起共同把這兩個法案這樣通過 |