| IVOD_ID |
16770 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16770 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
26 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-19T08:30:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-19T11:19:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:49:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea881a30a5cb1aad776425655b8120616f8b19dddded0b194f12214ef1a7808de15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：審查「住宅法」修正草案等38案，詳見議事日程。【第(三十八)案如經院會復議則不予審查；進行住宅法提案說明並處理(僅大體討論)。】【6月18日及19日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:00 - 11:19:00 |
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大家早安我們現在繼續開會我們進行今天的討論事項這個住宅法的提案說明並進行大體討論首先介紹在場委員及列席官員首先我們內政委員會李柏毅委員我們現在有提案的李瑞琴委員羅志強委員以及王宏威委員官員部分我們內政部劉世芳部長國土管理署吳新修署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1934.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1949.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
今天我們因為住宅法跟原住民有關係我們原住民族委員會政務副主任委員古仲副主委還有剛剛到現場補充介紹我們蘇喬惠委員好 跟各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1950.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1974.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這個跟委員會報告我們今天的程序是這樣先針對有新增提案的部分我們進行檢要提案說明提案說明之後我們今天只進行大體討論大家的桌上有大體討論的提綱請大家充分發表意見作為未來各黨團在內部整合以及主要討論之參考好那我們現在就開始進行新增審查法案之提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請林月琴委員進行提案說明林委員有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1988.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2007.568 |
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好 仔細各位委員還有政府部門那根據統計截至去年9月30日全國中央跟地方政府規劃的社會住宅大概122,983戶那其中已經完成的有109,596戶規劃中大概有13,387戶那根據住宅法的規定經濟或社會弱勢者保留戶要佔總數的40% |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2017.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2036.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這代表全國大概有49,193戶是為弱勢族群保留的這意味著有將近5萬戶的住宅呢實際上是對社會福利有高度需求者因此我們都很清楚的知道社會住宅政策不只是住宅政策更是社會福利政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2037.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2051.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
他同时要满足人民住得起的需求也要满足弱势者住进去受服务的需求所以当下社会福利进入社会住宅有三种法定方式一个是直接提供租任户的福利服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2052.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2068.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
社會設施進駐社會住宅的社區還有社會福利服務人員或團體定點的提供服務基於這些現況本席認為要明確的定義福利服務的為住宅法的立法宗旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2069.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2092.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
並且明確賦予中央跟地方的社會福利主管機關在本法中的義務跟角色所以具體的修法重點如下第一把福利服務納入立法目的確立社宅跟社福聯動的政策方向第二未來服務資源要投入到包租代管的弱勢家庭當中來彌補社會住宅量能不足也提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2092.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2115.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們的房東跟業者社會福利機構的參與意願第三中央主管機關要會同社會福利主管機關共同訂定社會住宅裡應設立哪些社福設施跟服務的內容規模補助方式並且社宅內的社會福利資源提供可結合民間資源辦理第四對當社會福利機構進駐 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2117.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2146.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
社宅并转租给弱势家庭的二代房东模式那相关的租金订定及再转租的对象租金规范要更明确才能够确实落实第五先说我们的政府调查不符基本居住标准家庭的查核范围避免占用在此本席请提出我们社会住宅部分条文的修正草案也敬请各位委员支持以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2148.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2151.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席 各位委員面對台灣當前嚴峻的少子化那高居不下的居住負擔跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2169.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2193.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
住宅安全風險那現行的住宅法已經難以因應社會發展與人民的期待所以這次我主題兩個法案共提一個法案分別針對基本居住水準規範社會住宅優先對象及住宅安全評估機制進行調整那希望能夠從制度面提升居住正義來具體回應人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2193.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2210.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
最關切的民生問題那首先是住宅法四條放寬社會住宅保留條件強化育兒家庭支持那我國2023年總生育率已經降到了0.87成為全球最低 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2211.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2239.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那社會住宅制度確認將育有兩名以上未成年子女作為保留的對象顯然跟當前人口結構脫節也對初為人父母的家庭形成制度性的排除所以這個提案我們是放寬成育有未成年子女即可不再限制人數那麼參照德國等國經驗設宅申請並不設子女數門檻而是以家庭實際照顧負擔作為判斷依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2240.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2262.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
更符合公平性與政策誘因修正不僅可以提升政策涵蓋面也可以視為政府對年輕家庭婚育選擇的一個積極回應來打造更有感的生養友善環境另外是住宅法25條延長65歲以上社會住宅成租者之租賃與續租期限 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2265.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2292.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
及以收入作為社宅租金計價標準現行的社會住宅出租辦法規定租賃以及連續續租年限最長為12年那這對65歲以上長者而言可能因為年邁體衰搬遷困難面臨無法續租的不利處境那與老人福利法保障長者居住權之精神不符 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2293.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2321.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以我提案增訂規定明定對於高齡成租者應給予例外延長租期之彈性另外為落實國際可負擔住宅政策趨勢以及過去住宅法修法附帶決議社會住宅租金也應依成租者實際收入來計算以確保經濟弱勢家庭不會因為租金過高而無法負擔提升社會住宅制度的公平性及可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2322.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2331.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那第三是住宅法40條明確基本居住水準來提升弱勢家庭的居住品質住宅法第40條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2333.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2352.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以要求中央主管機關訂定基本居住水準但對於具體指標例如居住面積衛生設備安全設備等等都沒有設明確的標準那導致實務上彈性執行彈性過大沒有辦法有效保障低收入戶以及弱勢族群的基本居住權 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2353.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2370.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那在修正草案当中明定中央应将上述三大项纳入基本居住水准并规定每四年检视修正地方主管机关需依据该标准清查家户状况并定立辅导计划中央也应给予经费支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2370.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2383.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
此举不仅补足制度空缺也有助于建立以人为本的住宅政策住宅法第43条补强住宅的安全评估纳入外墙与防灾机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2384.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2402.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
都市化加劇跟極端氣候的影響近年來憑藉外牆剝落社區災害事故等事件也凸顯了住宅結構跟社區防災規劃重要性現行的住宅法第43條雖然要求這個住戶要建立住戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2403.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2427.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
性能評估制度但沒有涵蓋外牆安全跟社區防災等項目變成一個法治漏洞所以我們修法明定主管機關應該包含上述兩項的新評估標準強化對住宅新建者或者所有全能的要求此舉也將建立更全面的住宅風險防控機制避免災害發生後才補破網最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2427.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2456.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
住宅不僅是財產更是人權要面對高房價低生育及安全疑慮多重挑戰所以制度性調整刻不容緩本次的三個案子提出就是希望能夠透過立法確立公平可及安全的住宅政策架構那從社會底層開始實現真正的居住爭議以上謝謝羅志強委員提案說明下一位我們請王宏威委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2464.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2470.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好謝謝主席我們各位委員還有我們在場的各位內政部官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2471.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2496.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那個高房價問題一直是我們重大的問題大家希望追求居住正義但是呢我們的這個相關的打房政策一直沒有辦法有效的解決特別是我們弱勢團體他的租屋問題所以在社會住宅他保障弱勢團體那麼他保留了一定的比例去給這個經濟或社會弱勢那現行的住宅法規定是提供給經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2497.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2518.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
或社會弱勢者比例是從最初的10%提高到40%但是事實上顯然是不足的而且我們弱勢族群在申請社宅的時候也面臨數量不夠甚至租金過高的問題使得社會住宅的數量遠遠不及滿足 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2520.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2534.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
弱勢族群他們的需求導致很多人是看得到吃不到根據內政部還有第三方的資料推估現在全台的租屋人口已經達到300萬人所以在這邊也插播一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2535.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2554.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
也希望我們內政部應該確實去執行有關於租屋補貼的事情不要因為想要政黨之間的惡鬥或者中央想要壓縮地方的相關的資金然後在房屋補助的部分來動 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2556.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2575.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
在这边我们还是要帮广大全国有300多万的租屋主要来做请命那另外呢在今年市场上主动投入这个包租贷款的住宅大概15万户那么但是呢在这些包租贷款的设宅的落实比例也达到56% |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2577.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2593.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以扩大社宅的这个弱势族群的比例居住权是有其必要性的所以本席呢在有关于我们这一次住宅法第四条的修正呢就是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2594.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2621.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主管机关与民间新办的社宅需要至少能够将50%的社宅优先给经济或社会弱势者承租就是我刚才所说的就是过去虽然有提高但是显然不足应该要再把它提高那另外呢也提升育儿家庭的这个优待的条件把原来第四条的修正第四条草案是育有未成年子女两人以上呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2622.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2626.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
把它修改为育有未成年子女就可以符合这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2627.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2655.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
入住的條件優惠的條件那麼鼓勵生育降低申請門檻這也比較符合目前我們廣大的租屋族以及也符合我們政府掃紙化能夠改善掃紙化的一個國家的政策那麼今天修法是一個歷程也謝謝我們的內政委員會還有我們內政部關於大家一起來共同的來推動希望住宅法能夠盡快完成修正以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2659.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2660.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
今天我提出住宅法4-1條的提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2686.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2714.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那因為城市的發展那有過去有非常多的這些我相信全國各縣市都有只有房屋的權利沒有土地的權利那也因為歷史的因素那我們希望可以藉由這個住宅法4-1條的提案可以讓縣市政府有機會可以安置這一些只有地上權而沒有土地權的這些住戶第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2715.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2721.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
舊左營國中的住戶在左營勝利路上有一排住戶大約40多戶是1960年代遷居到蓮池談判地方稱為北寨頭農場北寨頭農場他只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2733.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2755.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
房屋權沒有土地產權如果這個地方未來化定為觀光發展特定專用區或者是有其他使用的墓地他們將面臨搬遷第二個在棕油的宿舍裡面他們也是一群只有地上權只有房屋沒有土地使用權的住戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2757.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2784.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他們永遠不知道有一天政府或有一天中油公司對他們有什麼樣的想法他們永遠不知道他們的未來在哪裡最近有一個從實安居在左營即將要完工部長也即將要可能也會去現場他是左營一個857戶的社會住宅距離這兩個地方都非常的近那從實安居裡面其實也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2785.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2814.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
過去的眷村的拆遷戶他室居在這裡有一位80多歲的夫婦他們從過去在從實新村裡面有200多坪的自宅被拆遷到現在卑微的要申請大概20坪左右的房屋則從實安居我也希望未來的社宅是溫暖可以包容有這個案例從實安居也會變成社會社宅中重要的典範 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2815.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2830.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
在都市快速的成長那所有地方政府應該有權力提撥一部分的住宅為了城市發展而犧牲的民眾例如大陵浅村所以我這邊提案如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2831.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2860.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
原住宅被徵收或拆除因為政策變遷導致原定的補償安置方案無法落實的住戶主管機關應該提供社會住宅予以安置而且不受住宅法第四條第二項家庭總收入限制讓具資格的人可以入住社宅由地方主管機關視情況訂定受安置者認定標準以及最長的安置年限另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2861.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2886.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們也定定的為了防止不當的利益交換或核定入住資格的不得轉讓繼承確保公共資源可以最大化保障因為政策而受影響的民眾以上我的提案說明謝謝謝謝李博弈委員下一位我們請蘇曉慧委員進行提案說明蘇委員有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2899.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2914.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
建全台灣的租賃住宅市場提供國民有尊嚴的居住環境是我認為相當重要的價值也是政府積極努力的目標而為了達到這個目標現行住宅法針對公益出租人、社會住宅及租屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2915.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2943.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
租屋服务业等定有综合所得税免税额地价税及房屋税减免等规定可谓利益良善但查我国的租赁住宅市场的现状在不同地区住宅的租赁价格实际上有相当大的差异其中双北地区因物价及住宅租赁价格较为高昂现行住宅法有关免纳综合所得税额度一万五千元的规定显然无法有效涵盖所有租赁契约 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2944.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2965.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
以2023年的数据为例全国租赁住宅有效契约占整体的75.7%但台北市仅60.2%新北市更低才52.5%而已可见相关政策仍有精进空间因此本席原理据住宅法部分条文修正草案要求综合所得税 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2966.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2982.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
免稅額度應參採房屋所在地之相關住宅指標制定並調整本法其他相關的租稅優惠規定以提高社會加入提供可負擔的住宅及社會住宅的誘因也請各位同仁能夠支持謝謝蘇喬惠委員提案說明下一位我們請陳金輝委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3000.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3027.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
主席各位委員還有媒體先進大家早安大家好本席這次提出住宅法第四條的條文修正草案主要是希望我們能從制度面做出調整真正回應台灣當前少子化的國安挑戰我們都知道少子化的問題已經不是趨勢而是妥妥的現實根據內政部統計112年我國總生育率已經崩跌到0.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3029.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3055.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們今年一到五月每個月幾乎也生不到一萬的新生兒甚至是八千到九千幾乎是世界最低代表年輕世代對於婚育保持高度保留態度而在影響婚育意願諸多因素中經過許多的民意調查居住的負擔無疑是最核心也最迫切的一項沒有房大家完全不敢生養 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3056.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3075.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
現行住宅法第四條雖然有將育有未成年子女二人以上的家庭列為社會住宅保留比例的對象原本利益是要協助育兒還有鼓勵生育然而當整體生育率已遠低於世代的更替水準卻仍堅持兩名以上子女作為門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3076.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3102.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
这样子的规定其实已经和现实脱节也限缩了政策的效果我们可以参考德国的做法根据德国联邦住房与都市发展部的规定只要家庭育有子女就可以作为社会住宅资格的考量条件并没有对子女的数量设下门槛他们看重的是家庭的实际负担而不是机械性的定出数字限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3103.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3124.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這樣的彈性設計更能貼近家庭的需求也更具政策的包容性因此本席此次提案的重點就是將條文中二人以上的門檻放寬為育有未成年子女讓只育有一名子女的家庭也能受到社會住宅的支持來減輕年輕家庭的居住壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3125.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3142.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
少子化目前是不分黨派朝野屬於這片土地這個國家的挑戰希望大家都能支持這樣子的提案讓我們用更具包容性的社會住宅制度共同打造年輕世代敢婚敢生敢養的社會環境謝謝好 謝謝陳基輝委員的提案說明最後我們請王美惠委員進行提案說明王美惠有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3161.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3163.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主席 大家午安 大家好本席在這裏有提出住宅法第4條的提案說明裏面規定政府主管單位的新建的社會住宅提供一定的比例給社會最經濟和社會弱勢的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3185.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3187.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
但是我們常常聽到的就是台灣有很多隔代教養相關的新聞尤其重重的原因就是爸爸跟媽媽都沒有在所謂老舊未成年的經歷及後世輩的阿公阿嬤來請用 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3206.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3209.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
如果不行,他們所照顧的孩子是身心障礙者,阿公阿嬤負擔更加重。但是以我們現在的住宅法,在四條的規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3222.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3227.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
必須有修正改觀這個古代教養的社會弱勢可能他會沒辦法去申請社會主宰的資格的問題尤其現行的第二項第七款所規定的身心障礙要要求省人 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3245.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3252.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
但是在阿孫孫子的時候男婢生的,但是他身心障礙者都沒有康復的時候,我認為現行的第二款、第五款所規定的特殊的情形的家庭要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3269.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3275.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
要阿公阿嬤沒套路才有辦法去申請但是在這個過程當中我們有看到這個家庭有非常辛苦但是阿公阿嬤他還沒滿65歲所以他有一點點套路但是他去申請就不符合所以本席提案就是說可以新增住宅第四 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3296.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3307.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
可以讓有未成年身心障礙的家庭可以給他們機會再交代教養的阿公阿嬤在帶小孩的時候可以給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3318.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3328.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
去申請社會住宅的社會的弱勢的範圍中希望大家可以支持本省所提案我們不好的老人家也不好可以幫助的人讓這個社會的弱勢可以受到更好的幫助還可以減輕他們家庭的負擔以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3350.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3369.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
好 謝謝完美會委員的提案說明我們提案說明的部分到此告一段落那麼列席機關今天還有提出一些補充的書面報告我們請各位委員自行參閱我們同樣會刊登報告好 那提案條文昨日已經宣讀完畢那我們現在就開始進入大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3370.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3394.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那今天我們有提供大體討論的提綱那我們就主點來做發言討論那要發言的委員我們就舉手那原則上我們就以舉手先後順序我們輪流發言這跟委員會報告我們大概每一個題目基本上大體討論的用意啦是要讓這個各政黨在回去做最後的版本整合的時候有更明確的方向這明確的方向之後未來我們要進到主條討論的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3395.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3422.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
速度才會比較快要不然會因為這一部法案修正是很大幅度的修正如果沒有各自來做一些整合的話會比較辛苦所以今天我們就針對主題式的部分大家各個政黨的代表各個委員或提案委員可以發表意見我們在各個題目上我們也都會徵詢這個行政機關的意見我們就一次列入這個今天大體討論的會議記錄那用這個會議記錄來之後大家拿這個去做整合我們再進入到主條討論以上跟大家補充做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3423.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3438.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好那麼我們就開始吧今天到底討論的第一個大方向叫做要不要建制社會住宅登記平台相關的法條是第18條請問有關於社會住宅登記平台這件事情各位有沒有意見沒有都有共識嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3445.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3455.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
真是太好了嘛好沒關係我們先請內政部說明一下好不好這個有關於社會住宅登記平台的一些做法跟大家對這個行政機關對法條的意見來有請這樣就針對這些主題大家先有一些初步方向意見就好不用到法條的細節沒有關係來吳署長報告還是六部長要請次來嗎好請吳署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3475.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3489.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
謝謝昭偉還有各位委員那首先我是不是先回答有關社宅登記平台這件事情那宋官所提出來的條文其實是希望能夠讓有意願要住社宅的這個民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3490.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3514.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那能夠提出他的意願跟想法那給政府作為這個評估社宅興建還有這個後續在社宅相關抽籤作業的一些參考那我們現在目前實務上的各縣市政府有社宅的大概就是雙北跟桃園台中高雄那他們目前縣市政府自己有做一個平台但是是給要 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3515.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3535.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就手中有的這個社宅的這個部分來進行抽籤那並不會去主動去要提供住戶提供相關的資訊又或有意願者去提那所以這樣的提案內容其實就實務上來講我們中央政府目前自己也在做這個社宅的登記平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3536.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3549.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
但是社宅的登記平台大概預計在因為它會涉及到資料的借接會跟戶政、地政還有這個財稅單位去做借接所以它是實務上要進行抽籤所要用的一個抽籤的平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3550.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3565.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
但是如果說照這個提案的話反而是要民眾主動來表達他的意願去做的話那會相對有一個問題是說會讓民眾誤以為政府是要收集他的資訊因為我們一樣要比對他的身份資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3566.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3596.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
才能去了解他是否符合資格而不是一般民眾為符合資格就隨意來登記那這樣的話第一個也會有一個困擾是民眾可能會誤以為我們是在收集他的個人的一個醫院的一個部分第二個填寫了他未必代表他真的會過來這樣的數量一旦龐大的話對於政府真的要去落實執行這樣的一個政策也不是一個很容易分析的一個問題就他有點像願望清單 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3597.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3613.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這只是我的願望但不代表我真的要去做的時候那這樣一個統計出來的數據對於政府真的要去做的時候是不是有實際上的幫助反而是現在中央在做這個平台我們未來當然中央完成這個抽籤的這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3615.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3632.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
完成以後民眾可以上來填寫那我們會確認他的資格以後讓他保有在抽籤方面上的他已經確認他的資格是符合的這樣實務上先來推行後續呢等中央跟地方逐步來借接平台以後這樣可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3633.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3652.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
後續再來擴張那否則我們也會擔心這樣會讓民眾有疑慮是他在調查他們的資料這樣也不是一個很恰當的一個做法那所以這個部分也跟各位說明就讓我們逐步把抽籤的平台先確認然後跟地方政府連結以後再來進行是做這樣的一個報告好吳主席還有就這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3662.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3684.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
好 各位委員有想法嗎來 請署長會委員我本來是想說 署長報告了非常多針對委員提出的建制新平台新的登記平台的看法那要不要說一下說現在有的狀況是怎麼樣其實大部分的國民我覺得對現在的社會住宅登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3685.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3702.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
其實是已經還蠻習慣蠻接受的了大家運作也蠻好的你現在突然來一個新的制度齁而且只是等於是去許願而已啊又不是這個又不能到後面的嫁接這個其實這樣的狀況我覺得有點奇怪所以我剛剛想說請你多補充一點現行的好不過我回頭一看現在啊我們是要討論對啊而且而且當時而且報告主席現在主張18條要修改的人好像都不在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3714.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3738.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
對啊那這樣的話這樣的話我們討論是不是要不要再精簡一點沒關係委員我在我已經準備好了可是你不在啊你不在啊我說第18條啦大體討論因為如果今天是逐條的話那當然平安委員就要在場這是我知道大家比較在乎這樣的事情但大體討論就是方向我會掌控時間大家不用太擔心好不好那就請署長說明一下現行的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3739.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3763.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
現行就是地方政府各縣市自己有建那中央我們在國家租屋中心的這個部分呢也已經跟護證師、支扶師還有我們國土署一起來推動一個租屋中心設宅承租資格所需的資料欄位借接平台那這個部分呢在九月就會完成那我們也是第一階段完成這個平台以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3764.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3785.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
後續呢 隨著數量的擴張會跟地方政府再考慮長期雙方來借接那因為這都會涉及到個人資料的借接所以我們在這過程當中是會謹慎逐步的去完成不會去 也原則上不希望去朝向讓民眾去許願的這樣的一個方式這樣其實對民眾來講 對我們的作業來講都是 雙方都是一個困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3787.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3791.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好 謝謝署長來 歐美蕙委員主席 在這裡剛才署長說的我們聽起來跟聽的人 我覺得應該是沒有這個需要啦比較複雜的啦比較具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3804.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3809.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
對 跟古典的我們有在做這樣民眾會覺得很亂的啦我也覺得這條我是自己的主張 我覺得沒有需要以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3819.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3842.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好 謝謝王美惠委員我還有好 那你們先講了還有黃婕委員請好 謝謝那因為其實今天討論的幾條啦18 19 20然後23 5247等等那我是在想說這些提綱我們要不要就都一併討論因為其實今天很多提案的委員我看也都沒有在現場那我們又沒有要進到主條討論那變成說我們現在其實這些大體討論好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3847.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3863.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
沒有辦法進行更實質的溝通就比較我覺得今天這樣這場會議會比較可惜啦就是如果連提案的委員都都沒有來這裡表達他們的意見的話然後我們又沒有要逐條所以我不太確定我們今天的大體討論可以取得什麼共識喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3864.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3887.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那這個登記的平台當然其實我覺得就是像署長說的這樣只是說如果如果我們這個你們自己的這個審查的速度可以更快的話然後這屆的系統可以更好的話其實我們還是希望可以做得更好啦好 以上好 那換我提問題喔這雖然本席是主席但我一樣我對每一條我都非常有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3889.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3917.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
第一個我要強調的是社財統一登記平台的部分基本上在你們百萬戶租家庭支持計畫裡面雖然是一個長期的施政計畫但裡面確實是有寫的第一個強化招租及營運機制你就解說要有護證、財稅跟弱勢的查詢平台目標當然是要有一個借階的狀況也就是各個身份、審查等等的要加速它的行政流程那裡面也有寫未來要建立統一招租平台跟營運管理系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3918.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3946.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以這本來就是政府要做的事嘛對不對那我現在比較擔心的狀況是這樣就是說你明明想要做這件事情比如說你明明就需要借接資料等等但你欠缺一個很明確的授權跟依據嘛你要依法辦事嘛所以我覺得在法條上面針對統一登記平台做一定的文字修正線下可以立刻強化你在建立所謂的借接資料你的正當性嘛這個我想大家都會支持這樣的一個方向那當然你可以講我們當然未來要有統一的平台這在內容上面大家可以做一些細緻的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3947.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3970.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以我覺得其實某些層面18條的大方向來講其實反而共識是蠻高的就是說也許你們可以到最後堅持就是說不用修但是其實行政機關也要做那有些人認為要修但大家的共同方向其實都是要做嘛對不對我們就今天就其實大體討論就是這樣大家把各自的方向跟立場先做一下表達留下記錄好不好以上是本期的意見好請部長補充說明謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3972.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3993.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
有關18條的部分我想大部分委員的用意都是很好目前要解決的問題第一個我們現在社宅的量不是很夠包括中央跟地方那現在有些地方比如說新北市它已經開放開始做社宅的登記平台那在中央來講因為這個新北市的社宅是新北市去蓋的我們如果去 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3994.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4016.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
介入跟他講說你審查多少要借資料給我們可能會在我們的行政管理上會出現一國多制包括現在相當多的直轄市大概都社宅會陸陸續續完成所以我們現在要設置一個登記平台然後是在中央的話可能有這方面的困擾就中央跟地方可能要自己分別設置這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4016.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4031.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那第二個呢就是大家會覺得說我如果統一的話呢我可以解決譬如說申請戶的人呢他就不要重複他申請台北又申請新北又申請桃園可能到時候他就三支籤中籤比例高我想不至於發生這樣的狀況啦這是第一個那再來就是剛剛我們那個署長特別強調的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4036.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4059.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
就是第一個個人資料在借接的過程當中很容易產生治安的問題因為我們這個資料是倒來倒去的不是這個資料是大量的倒而不是一戶一戶在倒的所以我會建議就是說未來如果要的話就是說讓我們有點時間去準備第一個我們要不要統一社宅登記平台它裡面的規範包括項目或者是說填的欄位都一樣只不過這個是中央管的這個是地方管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4064.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4084.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
但是我們現在還沒有跟地方政府做這方面的一個行政的討論那另外一個我們也在五月的時候跟四月的時候已經內部召開這個協調會議我們現在的國家住住中心就是剛剛所說的這個資料欄位的介接平台已經要做建制跟測試但是預計要九月底才會完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4085.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4105.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
為什麼要這樣就是像剛剛所說的現在的剛剛可能劉委員提到說我們現在百萬戶租屋家庭的借借計劃那個是申請租金補貼那比較簡單但是我們如果申請社宅的話社宅的房型地點位置你人口的組成有沒有未成年子女是不是特殊處遇的這個經濟弱勢戶或是社會戶那是非常複雜的狀況所以我們要把它弄的部分的話會變成我們的戶政財稅還有要跟社福的資料聯合都全部要處理清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4115.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4143.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
所以是不是讓我們的住都中心先在九月底之後完成建制如果大家覺得說這樣的建制系統大家可以接受我們再跟地方政府來聯繫的時候呢設宅登記平台把它明文法制化可能會比較好因為你現在說應該來處理那應該處理那時間點如果不對或者到時候有些借街的時候出現這個治安的問題的話我們要臨時再改這個文字的修正又要再耗費一次三讀通過的這個立法的程序以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4144.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4158.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
好 謝謝 劉思芳部長的補充說明各位還有意見嗎好 那我們各方意見都表達完畢 好不好這題目就是社會住宅登記平台的部分我重複一下好不好 這我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4160.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4177.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
提案這邊的主張啦是希望就是說因為基本上這個其實符合政策方向然後也符合國際潮流所以說大家都希望可以把它法治化民文化那剛剛我們行政機關包含國土署包含內政部包含我們執政黨的委員就在想執政黨委員關心說有沒有必要一定要修法的方式來處理那我們行政機關有比較幾個顧慮第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4180.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4202.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
大家來告知阿婆執政黨什麼黨啦就是在位啦 不要這樣說這樣啦 這樣就太感情啦我是要收束大家的意見啦好不好我也有意見啦 你剛剛講得不好意思喔我也有意見啦你說大家的意見是要法治化 並沒有啊今天提案的人都沒有來啊所以你必須要修正一下你的話啦不是 我剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4210.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4231.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我們到底你們這邊的意見到底是要還是不要呢這比較麻煩沒有沒有沒有大家的意見是這樣提案的委員都沒有來啦那我們的現在有現場有表現場有表達的委員的意見是說已經在做你並不需要把他入法啦好不然會亂啊那我們就林委員講的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4233.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4248.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
在場的委員認為比較不需要入法嘛我的重點是強調行政單位的一些補充嘛第一個住都中心九月有一個建制計畫看要不要考慮一下那擔心中央地方的制度整合問題還有各自介接的部分希望大家再做思考可以嗎這個題目就這樣 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4252.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4265.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 我們進到第二題INFO及如何以法律規範整體開發並同取得社會住宅的部分這相關條文是19條 20條 21條之一不好意思 主席 抱歉我們打岔一下主席 今天大體討論因為我們跟司法有聯繫啦是不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4277.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4293.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
照說不用照這樣一條一條走還是要照一二三四這樣走一二三四啊一二我只是講說跟哪幾條有相關如果要看的可以看啊你如果針對這個直接有想法直接講也可以好不好好請張宏祿召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4298.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4322.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個我覺得啦 我個人比較持保留的態度啦你以法律規範把它入法完全沒有彈性 完全沒有空間然後設宅在蓋的時候 中央也有蓋 地方也有蓋那你這樣都把它用得太死 我覺得不用我覺得這個國土署 你們的施行辦法或什麼的其實就可以達到了這個目的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4323.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4347.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我覺得不要把它定得太死不然你地方政府沒有辦法去執行很多的東西而且地方政府的量能也沒那麼大我跟你講你如果這個不要再不是六都的話我跟你講你定著這個下去我跟你講完全都不能蓋了我覺得我們要好好的考量這一點所以我對這個我是反對謝謝 張宏祿委員這個還有其他委員有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4357.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4382.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
想問要用這樣子討論還是因為我覺得像我的第一條很重要是要先確定一個很基本的原則因為我們認為社會住宅本來就是針對於國外大概也都是還是以弱勢它事實上是社會福利的一環所以我第一條就有列上先把這一條先確立就加一個與福利服務這一塊可是現在就是說這樣的討論是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4384.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4386.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
整個結構對我來講是有點亂的李柏惟李柏惟署長這個其實我在質詢的時候有講過這個入法跟沒有入法差別在哪裡你可以再重複一次舉台中為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4414.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4438.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
現在我們是不是已經在要求台中市政府要對於他的這些區亂徵收或者是勢力重劃那做出一些比例要求他有一些設宅的比例我說明一下那你入法之後他錢帳都不算啊你現在不是正在正在要求台中市政府做嗎台中市政府吼拿到這個租金補貼的呃量最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4440.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4466.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
租府的戶數最多然後他設宅的比例又低那你現在國土署正在做什麼辦法讓他可以也照顧到這些設宅的用地入法之後會有什麼影響署長請你說明一下好 說明一下第一個就是說因為現階段我們要去推行這一個也是著眼在整開地區有些發展他已經進行中的或者是正在進行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4467.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4494.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那進行中的它已經是屬於相對周圍發展起來了其實它社宅的需求量也出現了那可是這個時候我們是用這個行政協商去跟台中市政府談這一個你現在不管是你室友的或是國友的是不是可以讓我開始總併起來做社會住宅那這透過行政協商因為畢竟它配低都已經配完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4495.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4516.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那今天修法了以後會變成說我們是以這個法令為一刀切的話那當然就會產生那在修法之前已經配地完成了那就沒有辦法再去討論了就配地完成了那對於很多發展相對還不錯了但是我們一樣有蓋設宅空間的這個地區可能會喪失一些機會了那第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4518.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4537.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為做整開地區它是全國各地都會有的現象那很可能有些是特定的產業的目的去做的那但是我們如果強制去所有的整開地區去做那我們很可能有些整開地區它其實是不需要設宅或是它根本就是以產業為主在開發的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4538.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4558.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那他也不會需要設宅那結果我們又法律強制規定他一定要拿一部分出來做設宅其實那也會造成土地資源上的一個浪費所以我們現在的做法是在行政的流程當中譬如說他這個案子在都市計畫的審議當中我們直接就在都委會的過程就 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4558.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4579.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
先檢視他有沒有畫社宅的必要性那有的話跟縣市政府直接談那這樣的話在都市教育的流程裡面直接確認他的數量確認他的區位那這樣的話後續就可以接續不管是中央或地方他接續去做社宅的規劃這是現在最完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4580.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4603.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
已經進行配地或是配地完整的那我們就是用行政協商的方式去跟地方政府去溝通那目前來講各地方政府在配合度上都還不錯那所以我們建議是不需要修法讓我們用這個方法繼續去做這樣的話反而在取得社宅土地的全面性上會比較好那做這樣的一個補充好 各位委員還有沒有什麼意見要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4611.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4638.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那個沒有了黃建華委員請我要以正式聽一下剛剛博弈委員說我們台中市社宅蓋的是最少沒有我們台中市社宅自己興建一萬多或是全國排名第二僅次於台北市我修正一下這個數字好謝謝那個講一下比例啦講一下比例我修正一下社宅比例跟他的租補的比例啦台中市是明顯不足了 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4640.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4652.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好其實大家都各自用有努力有方法啦好不好但是沒關係我們還是針對今天的主題來做討論欸你們這個用地取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4653.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4671.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
最近我們設宅的這個計畫一直都沒有核定難道不是跟用地取得跟土地的價格等等有一定的關係嗎我們是不是請吳署長說明一下因為現在的設宅是這樣因為我們現在最近在修正一些方式就是說過去還要用直接大量購地去 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4674.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4697.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
興建先購地完再去興建那當然有些過去是用國有地直接撥用那這樣的做法其實撥用的速度會比較快但是只要涉及到要購地它中間的行政程序其實都還蠻久的那第二個我們在編列相關的舉債的話那增加的速度會太快所以政院有找我們談叫做多元取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4697.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4711.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那多元取得裡面就會包含我們會以這個財務的自償性的一個可能性在定義出培養多的方法那其實這些方法目前也有在用比如說用都更分回的有些走都更分回 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4712.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4736.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
有些可以採出餐的方式來進行那有些跟國營事業也可以用合作開發的方式來進行所以政院是要我們除了原有的方法以外多提出其他幾種方案那這樣的話可以針對不同地區不同特性的土地那他未來蓋社宅的機會跟方式來重新做定義所以他不是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4736.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4745.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
不是沒有說不是沒有說不往前走而是我們會找出更多的方法讓這個社宅的這一個興建更全面那財務更穩健好 謝謝 請劉思邦部長補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4752.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4770.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
其實我們昨天在開會的時候我們有跟委員報告就是未來的社宅的方向我們現在要考量的是多元取得那多元取得的方式不一定是多元取得公共的設施的用地或是多元取得公家的土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4770.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4789.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為不管你用什麼樣的方式取得公家的土地然後公家又以國家住宿中心或是中央或地方政府用這個公務預算來蓋新的社宅的時候呢它所累積出來的財務槓桿是非常的驚人的我們曾經估算一下就是未來如果以十幾萬戶這樣子下去的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4791.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4818.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
恐怕他所累積所需要的經費會高達五千億甚至是一兆以上那這個恐怕就不是社宅我們當時要做不管是作為社會福利或是要照顧弱勢或是照顧年輕人所以現在行政要求內政部跟相關的部會包括財政部或是包括其他的部會共同來思考一下叫多元取得什麼叫多元取得現在民間機關裡面或者是民間所興建的這個房子其實有很多是空屋 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4819.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4836.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那這些空屋呢在很多都是屬於這個非常優秀的這個生活圈的這個區域範圍內那為什麼他不願意釋放出來譬如說利用包租代管的方式或是利用錢的方式釋放出來給有社宅需求的尤其是年輕人為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4837.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4862.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那這個部分的話就變成說蓋好房子還有取得土地呢都不需要經過中央包括什麼用地取得然後要爭取預算不管你是基金預算或是公務預算所以這個部分呢我們正在大規模的做一下所有的盤整包括裡面的財務槓桿或是財稅甚至包括稅收的部分看能不能未來呢就可以散落到各地也許一棟大樓裡面它的空屋是有20戶30戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4863.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4878.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
可是二十戶三十戶提供給弱勢來居住的話他也免於以後未來的大型的社會住宅蓋好以後就被標籤化裡面都是弱勢那大家都知道這個弱勢的族群住在一個同樣的社宅裡面住了二十年三十年以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4878.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4898.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那個地方可能就變成在社會治安的一個比較大的隱憂那所以這樣的部分的話我們如果直接把它放到19、20條裡面看起來也沒有什麼不對但是它就會用這樣法律直接入法的方式要求中央跟地方政府用這樣子的一個方式取得社宅用地未來我們還是要看我們的財源從哪裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4902.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4917.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
取得土地的財源然後要蓋社宅的財源那這個部分呢就會變成不夠的完整性所以我們比較希望說未來呢不管是用什麼方式取得社宅能不能是多元取得來代替多元興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4918.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4933.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那既然是多元取得來代替多元新政的話多元取得可以公部門跟私的這個民間團體一起合作甚至有些像保險團體也願意加入的話讓我們有多一點的空間跟他們來做思考那這樣子就不會說緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4934.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4955.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
局限於在六都為主那其他非六都的部分呢也有這個空間所以我們認為現在的修法呢如果放到裡面去我們看了不管是十九二十條的話它裡面寫的文字都沒有錯可是會太偏頗到是多元取得社宅用地而不是多元取得社宅不一樣喔謝謝好 謝謝還有沒有委員要補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4961.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4987.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我只會問幾個簡單的問題啦然後也回應一下嘛就是說就是說署長剛剛有提一個蠻好的概念啦就是說會不會入法之後變所有的整開包含比如說產專區的開發等等你也要預留用地其實我覺得在條文上有修正像我自己的條文就有講只有住宅區啦就僅限定住宅區所以我覺得這個東西在修法技術上是可以解決的那我剛剛聽不管是部長也好或者署長也好結果其實你們是比較擔心就是說社宅蓋太多因為自償的問題然後造成財務負擔是這樣的意思嗎我問一下可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4997.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5012.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對我了解你們講的多元取得意思就是用各種方法這個本席覺得很好啊我覺得沒有問題但我的意思是說如果入法的話因為當初大家去提這個這個去取得土地的這樣子的一個整開的這樣子的一個修法其實就是擔心土地價格 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5014.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5039.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
很高這件事情 阻卻了社宅用地的取得的進度嘛那阻卻之後其實就會變相的影響社會住宅的建設進度嘛 對不對那我覺得這件事情跟就是給你多元的方式取得用地給你更大的空間跟你要多元取得社宅包含你用譬如說分散在各個大樓裡面都有包住代管等等去增加弱勢可以入住的機會我覺得這其實是並行不備的啦好不好我補充一下就是說整個地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5041.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5046.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
不是每一個地區都適合一定要做比如說這個地區明明可能人口只有一兩萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5048.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5074.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那可是他做了一個新的整開區可能面積因為越越越中南部的話他土地越不是問題沒錯那我們用這樣的方式去估算的話台灣可能動者又留下了四五公頃的社宅土地那可能當地的需求根本沒有他不見得有這樣的需求啦對所以我才會說如果強制去修法反而會失之彈性那我們現在的做法是說我在都計的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5075.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5104.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
就先加入評估 去做評估 去做確認那有的話我直接在都市計畫審議直接加進去了那這樣的話就可以確認它在這裡會不會有涉災那會有多少量的涉災那用什麼方式處理那這在都市計畫裡面直接就把它定清楚了那這樣是最好的那第二個就是說現階段有的我們都採行政協商其實地方政府到目前為止也都願意配合採行政協商來處理這些土地 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5105.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5127.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那這樣的話我們在處理的彈性上會比較多元而且也比較容易在實務上來講它會比較趨於合理好 謝謝署長的補充說明其實署長剛剛講最後其實就是張宏祿委員的關切嘛也就是說擔心說這個彈性問題沒有辦法被很好的處理署長的看法跟我是一樣的啦你要給地方政府有彈性有一定的空間嘛 不然我們講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5127.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5149.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
台東他如果要蓋你 包括我們要入法 台東的財政什麼什麼的如果你這樣 台東永遠都蓋不了了我覺得我擔心的是這個OK 好那剛剛這幾個方向 包含多元取得 展開區的定義 彈性的問題還有沒有要補充的好 我們這些都列入紀錄 好嗎作為主條的時候的參考好 我們進入到第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5150.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5158.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
如何精進包租貸款機制加強弱勢的協助這相關的法條是19條之一23條跟第52條來請各位委員發表意見請徐信委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5167.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5192.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好謝謝主席我想第19條之一第23條本席這邊有特別提案就是其實是為了鼓勵民間住宅所有權人將房子委託給包租業者出租還有管理那作為居住長期照顧服務身心障礙服務或是托育服務幼兒園使用所以我們特別針對第23條修正那 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5197.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5219.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
将选择包租方式的住宅所有权人每屋每月租金的免税额度上限把它提高到25000元那不是属于上述所列的那免税额维持在15000元那这边我想主要目的也是为了能够 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5222.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5249.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
對這個民間有所鼓勵那再來就是說剛剛因為在辦公室有一些事情耽誤我看到我還是有關注我們這內部我們第一個討論提案我在這邊補充一下因為我也有提案所以我想最主要就是這個登記平台也是為了變民尤其我們這個社會一直變化我只是補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5250.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5258.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那所以是不是是希望我們的政府我們既然社會住宅這個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5259.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5284.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
民眾有這個需求我們讓他們能夠便利不然像目前所採的申請模式就是完工後再開放或者是他登記了他沒有申請到那後面又要再申請所以這個部分我也在這邊既然來了我也特別提出來那當然我有聽到好像會怕有個資或是什麼的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5285.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5302.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那我們希望這個部分應該政府是有辦法 不然我們其實我們民眾政府有很多掌握我們民間的一些資料那這個部分應該是可以有安全性才對好 以上兩點 謝謝好 謝謝 林卓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5306.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5323.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好 我針對有19條之一啦因為現今我們的租房屋業者都會先跟房東簽三年的包租合約那期間每個月呢付房租給房東然後業者大概當二房東把房子轉租給別人這叫做包租那或者是另外有業者呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5324.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5350.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
代為管理整個出租流程稱為代管那業者不像包租那樣自己承租下來再轉租而是協助房東找房客那處理招租收租報休點交維護的事務房租還是直接由房客交給房東業者就收取服務費那包租代管呢就是現在目前房屋租賃比較市場上比較常見模式可是今天政府為了彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5351.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5363.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
社會住宅數量不足的問題有條件補助我們的包租代管的業者條件是要把房子租給經濟或者是社會弱勢族群的人不過沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5364.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5392.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
不過因為沒有配套的機制來幫助弱勢團體導致我們的業者或社會福利單位跟房東之間都有疑慮不太願意投入經營所以我覺得政府應該積極介入引導所以我們才會增訂這個條文明訂政府要去做這件事情就是中央主管機關要和掌管社會福利的單位合作一起建立弱勢者的服務政策針對包租跟代管具弱勢身份的房客要提供必要的社會福利服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5393.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5413.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
或媒合轉介社會福利資源這樣才能夠提升業者跟房東的意願增加出租成功率也讓社會福利身份的人得到應有的協助因為前面大概我後來看也有人條文裡面未來在第四條的時候要增加弱勢到50%如果越來越多在一個社宅裡面的話更要 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5413.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5425.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
福利服務要提供進去才能夠是幫助在那邊居住的人而且也能夠讓在其他跟他們一起居住的人能夠和平相處我覺得這蠻重要以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5433.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5456.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這幾條的修正方向其實是這樣就是說包租代管本來是一個包套的一個政治政策概念嘛就當然就是希望說可以釋出平常的這個閒置的空屋讓這個弱勢族群可以入住好等於就是間接的增加類似社會住宅的這樣一個戶數增加居住正義但實務上在政策這樣走了一段時間大家會發現其實代管的比例是遠遠超過包租啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5456.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5468.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那其實就是因為包租的彈性相對沒有這麼大風險可能比較高那優惠又跟代管差不多那實務上大家都通通去做代管那現在就是包租的比例我看這邊的資料是23.6%而且是下降趨勢我是覺得這比較擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5471.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5491.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
因為理論上來講其實你用包租的方式其實是比較容易去抓量比較容易去掌握那個比較容易去比較貼近我覺得比較貼近居住正義這樣子的一個初衷啦但是現在變成貸款越來越多那包租不夠多所以其實大部分委員的修法都是把包租的免稅額嘛做相當的拉高然後並且 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5492.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5520.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個有比如說民眾黨的提案他就說包租的這個比例應該達到50%他是做政策指導在法令上做政策指導好在我們這一些方向那我們請行政機關針對這樣問題做一下補充說明謝謝感謝啦因為其實包租貸款當時提出來的概念為什麼有這兩個合在一起其實它也是針對台灣現在的租屋環境的一個特性也就是說你還是要先讓房東比較信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5521.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5542.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
因為一開始你要去因為台灣的租賃契約都是一年一千那你要他一口氣就答應你三年一千其實一開始在做就相對比較困難所以才會有包租跟貸款這兩個形式出來那其實這幾年下來跟委員報告我們到今年的5月31號其實包租的比例是逐步在成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5543.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5558.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
到現在已經佔了32%那代管是68%代管是68%所以他是有逐步在提高也就是這幾年下來包含工部門的努力包含包住代管業者的努力其實已經讓這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5560.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5584.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
市場已經慢慢開始有一些改變那我想這個改變是一個正向的這一個部分當然包租的這個因為它涉及到租賃關係會比較複雜因為就像剛剛葉秦偉有講他是業者先來代理處理這樣的一個租約但再去轉租出去那這樣的話當然就會有這個包租約跟轉租約所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5585.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5610.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
因為也涉及到兩個合約所以對房東來講一開始他壓力會比較大他會覺得比較大那所以如果你現在又把他強制說一定要二分之一那其實對這個也沒有辦法之後馬上就把這些案子馬上轉過來反而會讓民眾會擔心說政府有沒有強制他去做的這樣的一個比例第二個當然就是說當然前幾年因為房地產的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5612.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5632.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
房地產的價格一直在上漲所以包租本來就會面對一個房東會有想要提前解約的一個風險的壓力那代管對他來講可能相對壓力比較小但是我想這幾年下來慢慢穩定成長以後其實委員們可以去期待他可以慢慢成長朝向他超過一半的方向來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5634.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5652.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那而且包租他還要去他還要會有這一個如果他的單次的給付要超過兩萬以上他還會有額外繳納補充保費的一個問題所以這些都是對房東來講他潛藏在心中有一些壓力這也是我們為什麼我們用逐步的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5653.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5679.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那其實現在業者都很努力朝向希望這個合約都朝向以包租的方式來進行那這個是不是讓我們有再努力一段的時間那去提高免稅額其實不是有時候不是房東最在意的因素他在意的因素是中間有沒有可能因為我有需要我要提前解約那對包租來講我就有這個壓力這其實對房東來講是一個比較大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5680.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5708.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
心理上的一個因素但是我想這幾年讓他慢慢穩定下來那業者都會拿很多實際的案例去跟房東們談慢慢去改變他們的一個觀念這樣的方式去做那至於跟衛福部來洽商建立弱勢處遇的這個協助機制也跟各位報告我們在長照2.0的時代就已經主動跟這個衛福部來洽接來合作那就我們呢有一些業者呢我們就訓練他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5710.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5727.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
手中的清單裡面去找出對象那主動來跟衛福部來合作那這一點我們從長照2.0時代就已經有開始在進行那我們在現階段下一期的部分呢我們是開始進行全面的業者的訓練也就是說在現在所有的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5728.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5753.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
包括代管的業者呢他們的這些承辦人員都要來參與這方面的訓練也就是說在手中的名單裡面再去找到要主動去找到這樣的一個對象那幫他們尋找適合的這一個租屋的一個地點那也一方面去跟房東來溝通做一些市都的一個改正那所以這個部分我們現階段是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5755.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5777.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
就很積極的在這樣的一個進行那會用落實的方式來處理因為一旦落入了條文以後我們也擔心是說會不會房東以後覺得這個以後就是會優先拿來租給弱勢團體那這個當然這中間又會有一點失之就是說一旦剛性定了以後現階段的彈性做法會不會又讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5778.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5797.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
房東引起疑慮那這一點就是我覺得在實務過程當中我們可以繼續來努力那是不是一定要來修法這件事情我就覺得大家都還可以再討論那補助的總金額其實這一點我剛剛也講了他不是他考慮的唯一的選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5798.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5814.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那所以這一點是不是讓我們逐步來做處理因為太過於法令規定啊我一定會包租超過一半這其實對現階段房東逐步在改變他的這個想法的過程當中又加了一道強制規定反而不是一件好事我這樣做這樣的說明好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5818.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5828.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
呃我們林立勤委員先補充一下說明然後剛剛我們內政部部長希望這個因為這個稅率又會有關嘛所以我們希望待會財政部副稅署我們林立勤副署長做一下補充說明好不好來先請林立勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5832.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5849.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
過往事實上為什麼不願意租給老人就是因為擔心獨居老人所以為什麼我覺得要有福利服務介入就是說如果福利服務介入的話相對事實上是讓房東事實上是安心的那現在你看伊甸立新 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5850.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5878.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
他們在處理老人或者是家暴婦女反而事實上是民間團體積極去做介入可是一樣他們大概就是要變成是團體自己要去想辦法有時候還不見得能夠介入所以我認為事實上為什麼當初會寫這個增加19條之一就是希望把他們確定下來讓我們的福利服務事實上是可以進駐有一個法的依據我覺得倒不會像剛剛提的說會不會擔心租給 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5879.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5903.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
所謂弱勢可是如果有一個福利服務在做協助的話我覺得反而相對事實上會比較有意願租給因為畢竟我們現在進入到超高齡社會的時候那獨居老人事實上是也在成長的當中可是他不見得代表有問題可是就是房東可能會有疑慮甚至事實上是受暴的婦女她離開她的家她要去租房的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5903.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5918.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
如果有一個社福團體在協助他的話他也可以穩定工作之後可以繳房租所以我認為事實上最好事實上有必要性雖然剛剛提到說已經有在做可是如果沒有一個法明確的話事實上福利服務很難導入啦以上謝謝謝謝林玥琴委員的說明我們現在請財政部這個林玥琴副組長做一下官方意見請 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5931.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5947.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
付税署說明一下有關這個包租代管的這個免稅額度一萬五千元現行是因為考量說不論他透過主管機關或者是租服事業來包租或者是這個媒合代管方式出租他同樣都具有高度的公益性 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5947.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5961.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以现行是提供相同的免税额度使他的租税待遇一致那维持租税上的中立性那其实现在这个15000元的额度其实我们根据相关数据来评估其实是足够的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5962.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5984.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
因为他如果有租金收入有超过15000元那他还可以减掉60%的费用剩下40%来计算所得那以租金收入如果一个月3万元为例来计算的话那他的免税额度是15000元那超过免税额度的15000元再扣掉60%的费用只剩下40%的所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5986.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5994.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以就是一萬五千元乘以百分之四十也就是六千塊所以他的月租金是三萬塊的話那他報稅的時候他的所得只要報六千塊但是這個六千塊去申報所得稅以後呢我們所得稅本身也有高額的這個免稅額跟相關的扣除額可以扣所以我們有去跑過這個統計數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6010.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6025.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
目前这些这个社会住宅公益出租人我们这个15000元的免税额度给了之后然后再加上我们税法本身也有相关的免税扣除额以后呢那这些这个房东呢他要缴税的比他 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6027.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6055.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
要缴稅的比例大概只剩13%也就是87%的房东包括不管是社会住宅的房东或者是我们公益出租人的房东87%他报税的时候他这个租金收入是都不用缴税的那只剩下13%的房东他的所得比较高一点他可能要缴一点税但是我们去统计他这个纵使要缴税的房东他大部分的一年要缴的所得税也在2000块以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6056.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6076.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以其实目前这个免税额度是很足够的那大部分房东他可能不大需要缴税所以这个就回到说这个房东选择他要包租或者是代管方式可能也有其他他考量的因素那租税可能不见得是他主要考量的因素那以上说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6079.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6098.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
謝謝還有委員好李博弈委員請那個副組長你稍等一下還有跟那個吳署長我覺得這件事情你們兩個要一起處理啦就是說免稅額度一萬五經過你剛的說明之後你說有百分之八十七的房東他不會被課到稅百分之十三會被課到稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6100.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6118.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這13%它的收入的級距大概在哪裡也可以要完整說明一下讓包租貸款讓更多房東有這個納入包租貸款的意願否則我們過去也一直在主張嘛就認為這個1萬5的這個免稅的額度太低到底是怎麼算出來的我覺得你針對這87%跟13%的這個收入的級距再詳細說明一下 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6124.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6149.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我最後問一下,這個87%應該是所謂的公益出租人吧?也就是說適用包租貸款政策的是不是?還是所有的房東?87%指的是公益出租人跟社會住宅的房東,就是我們住宅法的房東那你可以說明一下這個收入的級距,這樣更容易讓包租貸款可以推廣嗎?謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6154.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6165.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
包委員這個我可不可以再整理一下我現在你說他適用的房東適用的級距嗎他大概收入的級距他13%收入的級距是特別高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6168.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6186.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
對沒關係我們就保持這個免稅額度跟他的收入級距來做討論來做動態的討論還是你現在可以說明報告委員一下主要大概他是適用20稅率以上的納稅藝人20以上才會有可能要繳到稅OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6194.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6198.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
還是要問一下我們政府部門的態度因為我覺得既然都有在做了為什麼如果可以的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6211.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6237.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
對於整體的社會福利的一個服務對象來講事實上是更好的我們請吳署長部長要親自說明嗎我想林委員的那個提案相當的多大概就是希望能夠導入就是社會福利跟相關的環境那在原則性上或者是宣示性的條文在我們的住宅法放在哪一個條文裡面其實我們如果未來再審查條文我們並沒有特別意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6238.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6260.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
但是第一個我們不希望說把它標籤化然後再來林委員所提到針對第十九條第一項第六款新辦的社會住宅那剛剛我在回應很多委員的詢問的時候我們也不一定是針對新辦的社會住宅未來可能會有民間公司他們也願意釋放出來社會住宅 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6261.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6276.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好但是呢我們如果把它放到裡面去說一定要有提供必要的福利服務除了我們會配合衛福部的福利服務之外其實也要看狀況有些地方可能是需要長照服務但是有些地方呢他可能是需要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6277.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6298.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
幼兒園的這個社會福利的部分那其實這個都彈性非常的大那目前為止的不管是社會福利住宅不管是要興建也好或者是說轉租或是其他各種不同的方式取得其實一定程度的屬於要被服務的福利服務對象的人都有包含在內 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6300.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6329.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那所以呢這些如果林委員一定要把它提案進去的話呢我們並不希望說寫針對第十九條第一項第六款新辦的社會住宅等等等等等等那也可能會回歸到原來林委員所提到的第一項裡面的部分把它變成是一個通案性跟原則性的部分的話那要求中央跟地方政府還有要求這個內政部的國土署跟衛福部的相關的社會福利機構一起來協助我想這個可能比較符合比較沒有針對性 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6333.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6360.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好還有人要補充嗎沒關係我們充分發言沒關係不好意思部長剛剛提的是說19條之一是只拿掉剛剛提的第一項第六款這個嗎還是說連整個19條之一事實上是不建議完全納入只放第一條有一個所謂福利服務確認一下根本報告啦其實33條之一齁其實大概都已經有指定了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6361.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6367.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我知道當然委員會很希望說把攝譜的這一個觀念在所有措施裡面那嚴格上它是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6368.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6390.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
比較接近宣示性的條文但是是不是可以去用宣示性或指導性的原則去談這件事那不要去個別去定義因為事實上在做的時候我們都的確就像剛剛部長所說的我們會針對這些服務的對象去確認他所需要的項目再去做相關的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6391.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6399.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那如果去了變成所有不管什麼通通都要有的話那相對會失之在這方面彈性反而會沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6403.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6432.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
好還有不好意思因為我覺得這兩個是不太一樣33條講的事實上是說這個社會住宅需要有這些東西在可是我提的事實上如果在包住代管的時候他有時候遇到好的一些像有時候可能會像目前現在事實上有單位事實上是等於是他們事實上來租比如立行基金會或伊甸然後再來轉租給然後他們有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6433.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6451.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
處理的有些東西要處理的話是由團體來做處理所以才會想說這能不能去考慮把它納入在提出來把這個福利服務能夠變成事實上是講必要也是因為要看他這個人的狀況有沒有需要啦好謝謝各位委員還有沒有什麼要補充的沒有我們簡單這一題我們簡單做小結論好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6462.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6477.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這個包租貸款的部分提案的原由要只是希望包租跟貸款比例更加平衡希望可以提高包租政策的誘因透過減稅的方式來做處理那行政機關這邊的顧慮是說第一個他有更新數字嘛說現在包租是32%貸款68% |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6479.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6495.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
再來擔心說如果有明確的政策指導比如說入法多少比例會造成民間執行的壓力那這個也針對優惠是否有效提出了一些疑慮啦因為認為民間的需求是彈性所以說補助不是誘因有關於這個社福機制導入的部分大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6496.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6513.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這個部裡面可能會關心有點被貼標籤等等的一些問題但我們提案的委員是講說其實是反而是讓社福機制導入其實是反而可以解決一些租屋的糾紛也反而可以讓這個這個過程可以更順利好不好我們大體上講那賦稅署的部分我要特別提醒一下因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6514.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6543.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
其實這也是個蠻有趣的議題啦就是說包租代管我們所謂的公益出租人的部分到底人數有多少啊對不對那課稅負是多少如果我們真的調高了這樣相關的一個減稅的優惠對不對會造成多少稅損或什麼我覺得其實都可以提供一些詳細的數據所以我們就請負稅署針對剛剛包含委員關切的一些這個有關稅的部分不然級距也好人數也好稅率也好這個會後提供詳細資料吧我們在逐條之前要看到相關的資料這樣我們到時候進逐條的時候討論會更清楚可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6544.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6555.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好 這是第三項 那我們就這樣囉好 第四項 我們如何強化租屋資訊透明這個條文 相關條文是第十條跟第四十七條請問各位有意見嗎沒有 就我問了喔有嗎 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6569.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6595.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那請徐新委員這個就是說現在為了我們讓租賃市場資訊透明嘛那我們內政部已經有建置這個租金統計資訊的專區那但是就民間就是說大部分租賃的這個顧客呢民眾會希望資訊內容更完整更具參考性所以本席這邊有增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6597.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6626.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
依这个物件形态屋龄还有公布每坪租赁平均数与中位数的价格来办理那这个部分让租屋资讯更透明我不知道我有提这方面的修正不知道行政单位的看法如何然后再来就是说我们在整个租赁市场我们觉得学生学生的租屋权益不应该只有教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6627.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6651.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以我們在很多包括租賃方面資訊更透明讓所有的人他能夠更了解他要租因為我們接到很多就是他租了以後才發現怎麼樣怎麼樣其實這種問題很多所以我們的目的就是當然各個年齡層但是我在這裡還特別提出來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6653.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6676.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
不應該只有 這個之前也有質詢過不應該只有教育部 其實我們內政部既然對 是主管這方面的法案我們也希望 也能夠多照顧一下我們的學生 謝謝好 謝謝徐欣英委員各位還有要補充嗎我們一樣 我們委員先講一輪我們再請政府機關做說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6678.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6700.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這我說明一下啦,這個其實我們其實第一會期的時候我們其實就討論過了第一那時候我們是修租賃專法嘛那後來大家希望給給你們一點時間那後來推出了這個區塊的方式可是我看區塊的方式其實還是有點太粗略了啦由於我本席的選區規範來講我規範是細分成四個生活圈啦但你用一個平均的數額它真的有辦法如此反映租賃市場的一個狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6701.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6720.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以我想不管是透過修正租賃專法也好或者是修正住宅法也好你總要在租市場透明的這一部分有進一步的強化讓這樣子的一個數字更貼近市場的一個真相所以我覺得這是不是要好好來討論一下因為現在內政部的租統計專區 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6723.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6742.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
真的是不夠精準以租金50分位的資料來看新北市租金的50分位的價格甚至比台北市還高那跟大家其實對租賃市場的認知其實是有一些落差所以我想你用那種區段式的方式來算我覺得會我覺得是不足夠的啦那內政部對那時候嘛就今年3月24嘛就這個會期之後其實我們有討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6743.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6767.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個專案報告就有講說要把地級啊租賃資訊做整合借接啊要繼續來精進租屋市場透明化應該也是政策方向所以這次我想修法的幾個幾個委員都有提到就是說要把這些東西透明化包含是這個物件型態啊屋齡啊平均數中位數房型配比屋齡等都盡量的透明化那這條線要畫在哪裡對不對我們聽聽行政單位意見來有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6773.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6795.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
各位委員的關心齁那這個部分有關於租屋透明化的部分我們現在利用那個租金補貼的資料的部分現在已經有公布兩期的租屋行情的一個公布那這個部分的資料是繫到那一個整個行政區就是以鄉鎮市為行政區來公布他的一個租金的一個中位數中位數的一個情況那 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6797.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6826.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
第二個部分的話就是委員其實之前有在關心說要不要公佈到統計到租金的一個單價那這個部分我們在這一期的話以後我們租金統計會分兩期來公佈就是每年會分兩期來公佈那這一期最近的一期大概會在七月的部分去配合租屋組就是學生換屋的部分來公佈那我們也去套疊過地級資料那因為現在的話如果以整成的資料的部分因為地級裡面有比較正確的面積 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6827.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6848.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那這個部分我們已經在這一期已經規劃把整層出租的一個平均的單價就是單坪的價格的中位數跟平均數這個部分已經在做統計那會在這一期裡面去做一個分析讓整個資料的部分能夠讓民眾更為容易來做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6850.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6876.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以你的意思是說比起之前你公布的更細緻的地方多了一個整成因為之前的話只有租金的一個總位數而已那我們現在是吸到整成單價的一個總位數跟平均數所以民眾一般的話參考性就會更高所以你講說目前公布兩期下一期是期二公布是第三期的意思是嗎每一季 現在是每一季公布 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6877.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6904.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
每半年 那上次的話是今年的一月所以下一次的話我們會在今年的期間公佈剛好配合學生的那個換屋的 換租屋的所以你的意思是說公佈的這一期會比上一次的數字更詳細對對對 包含到單平價的部分這因為我們審法案的需求 你們有沒有辦法提早提供啊還是說會有困難因為現在資料還在還在整理是吧 還在整理中那我們算過最快的時間應該是七月的上旬 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6905.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6907.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好來徐行委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6908.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6937.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那所以以後都是這樣1月跟7月嗎還是說12月跟6月你知道為什麼嗎因為一般應該你公佈了以後他參考了然後他才去那個他就要去換嘛那剛剛你有特別講學生剛好那個所以你6月可能比較剛好他剛好考完期末考他可以準備他要不要換嘛那12月的話剛好明年新的一年1月通常可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6938.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6949.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我的意思只是問看看說因為你反映shift一個月而已嘛這第一個第二個你剛剛好像特別講租金而已那我們提的比如屋齡啊或那個物件形態的部分怎麼樣來 市長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6954.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6971.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
委員第一個屋齡還有一個租屋型態的部分原則上它的中位數我們也會去公佈那我們自己有看過那個屋齡的部分其實在價格的差異性不大那一樣統計資料我們會公佈出來那現在其實大家比較有參考的部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6972.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6997.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
單平價的部分所以這個部分我會特別再跟大家到時候跟民眾去做一個宣導那1月跟7月的部分因為我們的資料大概是用像7月我們是用3月的所有的一個租金補貼的一個資料大概有62萬戶所以配合整個時程的部分大概我們算起來大概7月的話整個會比較適合那如果有可能再早的話提前到6月的部分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6998.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7025.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個我們可能在下一期的部分看一下作業的速度是怎麼樣再來配合因為我們本來是規劃說七月的時候學生剛好再換屋再找新的房屋或者是有些剛考上再找房屋那一月的話可能有些民眾可能換工作換工作地點他要再找房屋那一月跟七月是最佳的一個時間點那如果要再做一個提前我們技術上可能下一期之後再來做一個評估看技術上做得到做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7025.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7046.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那這個部分就容我們來做一個技術上面的一個評估所以剛剛你的意思就是說1月那下一期的部分可不可以提早這個我可以理解那你那個物件跟那個你的意思就是說可以公布所以之後你們這一塊也會在整個的租屋的平台裡面都會提供謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7049.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7064.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
我覺得這樣子啦在下一次我們一樣進逐條之前就是說你把你最新想要公布的那個資料因為你現在還沒有資料的內容沒有關係但你至少欄位嘛就是跟前一期差別是什麼你知道那個差別的那個相關的資料你給大家關注這個法定委員好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7064.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7094.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
應該七月公布的那一批委員就會有比較具象的...我知道我不能等到七月因為我法條要往前走嘛所以我們現在可能要討論法條審查就算排足條的時候你這相關資料一定要給到讓大家知道說你現在在做的那個以前是提供哪些資料新的是提供哪些資料甚至未來會提供哪些資料拿在欄位拿在欄位對這欄位就好嘛那在欄位那當然有數字佐證那是更好那如果你數字還來不及那至少欄位要有我要知道跟之前的差別在哪裡可以嗎好那這一部分就暫時先這樣各位還有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7095.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7097.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好 我們休息五分鐘好不好 上個洗手間 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7122.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7122.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為這個太騷擾了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7156.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7157.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7178.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7179.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
對 三層還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7220.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7221.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7244.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7244.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
河沙 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7288.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7290.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
剛才有三年級的學生,他本來目的不太好,他本來目的不太好,他本來目的不太好,他本來目的不太好, |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7303.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7330.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
有一定的平均要求,但他們平常要玩耳機玩耳機,但他們平常可以看不出來,因為他們有間客廳,他們有間客廳,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人,他們有很多人, |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7331.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7343.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
對,這樣子就能拿到這種,這種的訓練,然後他也是把後面的背景都要拿出來。就像某種情人的感覺。 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7366.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7389.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
有,有兩種的產品對,對或者是有配件的對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7401.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7431.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7435.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7454.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
報告委員會我們繼續開會請大家回座好現在我們進入大體討論第五點如何在社會住宅導入社會福利機制這個相關的法條領域請委員提出第一條十九條至一三三條三四條三十五條好請問領域請委員委員開會了開會委員夠補充說明嗎好OK |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7463.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7480.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
因為這個都是導入福利機制啦剛剛有稍微討論來 林委員有要再補充一下嗎OK啦 那這個署長這邊呢謝謝啦 其實我想我們在做社會住宅的時候的確都會跟衛福單位長期都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7481.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7508.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
合作我們也主動的在當時在興建社宅的相關興建社宅的規定裡面都主動導入那所以呢現行的機制裡面其實我們都會建議按照現行機制那我們再訂定就現行的這一個法規其實都有在處理那我們呢也為了能增加指導性我們現在也有在研擬社宅附屬設施的作業指引也就是說今天不管是中央做或地方做 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7509.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7520.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我都盡可能去以這樣的指引的方式來指導他在怎麼樣在這過程當中去留設必要的社會福利的設施還有一些相關的服務那 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7522.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7540.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個部分呢,而且對於非營利法人的租金的部分呢其實我們也是希望,因為各地的租金差異是很大,作業方法也很大我們是建議還是由各地方的主管機關來去做那也因為現行的規定,我們都已經現行我們都跟衛福部有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7541.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7561.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
合作一些不管是實際上的設施的興建我們讓他用參見的方式那或是跟教育部用參見的方式來做那也關於這個服務的項目的部分我們除了這設施以外我們也都剛剛有說明我們在長照2.0長照3.0那還有現在都把包租貸款業者進行相關的訓練讓他們了解衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7564.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7593.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
不管是對於長照的項目對於老人服務的項目都進行相關的訓練所以建議是有這樣的方式讓這個衛福部跟業者能夠經由這樣的整合來加速精進他們的服務所以這個部分我們是建議這些條文是不是能夠讓我們再進行一段時間那除非真的在執行上有困難的時候再來做一個修法那否則現在依照現行的機制其實都可以推得動所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7593.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7610.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
做這樣的一個補充好 請問各位還有想法嗎關於導入社會福利這一部分沒有 然後我問一下組長喔這個因為剛剛你開宗明義就講嘛就是說你在推動這樣子的一個政策因為你在推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7611.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7628.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
住宅政策的時候其實你都有講說本來就要有跟社會福利做很像串聯這樣一個機制我想大家不會反對這個前提條件那我要問的是你在實際執行的時候比如說在社會福利導入的部分你們跟衛福部合作順利嗎會不會有不配合的問題衛福部也提供給我們很多協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7629.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7656.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那所以我們在這過程當中從早期的是屬於設施硬體類的那到長照2.0的時代已經積極介入到服務就對於針對個別的租戶進行服務的項目都已經有在介接那到現在是更積極的直接把所有業者還有承辦人都來訓練讓他們有直接這樣的一個意識主動來提供協助我想這也都感謝衛福部在這過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7658.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7660.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
都有提供我們必要的一個協助讓未來這個業務能夠更順利的推 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7668.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7694.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
謝謝署長那我想剛剛這個33 34這部分剛剛署長也有解釋那其實利益良善那現在也已經在做沒有我這邊沒有要提立刻的結論我反而是想說署長您剛剛提到的說現在已經在做做得還不錯反應還不錯所以是不是繼續保持現有機制來做的這個主持是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7694.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7717.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
地方政府 你的意思是說讓地方政府去決定嗎沒有 其實中央跟地方都有在做因為社宅的這個部分 我再具體一點 你剛剛的意思是說要不要讓社福團體成為經營這個社宅的這件事情主持是誰主持還是政府 不是地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7721.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7748.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這樣子啦因為我覺得這兩條利益真的是蠻不錯的那能不能請國土署這邊提供相關的資料我們在未來在審查的時候你說現在做的好的機制到內容的這個部分所以這個部分我們跟住住中心都一起來提供這個資料部分其實我跟蘇瑤有意見還蠻一致的就是說特別關心剛剛有講說非營利私法人承租設宅轉租嘛他其實就等於是像保住代管這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7749.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7763.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為剛剛我們前面在討論包租貸款的時候他有提這個概念我覺得這個概念其實蠻好的那實務上你現在做的成績怎麼樣好不好你這個資料你做一下準備現在我們到底有哪些非營利司法人社會福利團體在做包租轉租的資料提供一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7764.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7779.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
我們同意就是說如果他做得現在不錯我們其實不一定要更改那個機制而是用政策擴大政策也好政策精進也好其實可能是政策而不是直接修法但是要我們能夠確認政策的執行狀況以及方向就這樣子好不好好那我們請國土組會後提供相關資料針對社會住宅導入社會福利機制請問各位還有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7789.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7799.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
沒有 好 謝謝那我們就進第六點是否已經提高社會主宰弱勢比例及放寬弱勢者認定標準那我們請各位委員提供相關意見好 請徐信委員好 謝謝本席在這第四條這邊有一個簡單的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7810.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7824.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那就是也是因應我們現在少子化日益嚴重然後加上呢其實行政院也是在有特別的針對我國少子化的對策計畫中有提到要針對育有 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7825.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7840.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
為成年子女者優先提供成豬社會住宅以及優先享有住宅補貼的配套措施所以我們就把它修正本來這個第四條的第二項第三款是指 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7840.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7856.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
欲有未成年子女兩人以上現行的規定我們就修正為欲有未成年子女也就是說不限定要兩人以上那所以這個部分我想應該是有共識吧所以特別提出來好謝謝黃建豪委員然後蘇曉慧委員好不好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7862.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7885.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好謝謝主席喔那我想這個反案我們在去年提出來三一提出來那我要先說明一些數據跟大家分享一下去年三一提出來之後呢因為之前看到一些房價跟這個新生兒出生比例的一些數字那剛好去年7月那個歐洲有一篇台灣人投的期刊那個European Econolator他的一個期刊了那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7886.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7905.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
作者是台湾人那他做了一个分析就说从2012年到2021年台湾19个县市他做了很大规模的分析之后发现一件事情就是我们的出生率跟这个我们的住宅的比例跟住宅的这个什么这个金额房价所得比哦他呈现极大的互相关 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7906.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7919.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
然後我們的房價跟我們的這個出生率也確實呈現了一個即將死亡即將交叉呈現一個很很大的一個互相關的狀態那所以我們就是基於這個原因去提出這個法案為什麼提這個法案呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7920.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7943.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
因為在本來條件裡面當然很多委員都剛剛說明也提到了就是本來的法案裡面是說育有未成年子女但是我想現在台灣問題不只是育有未成年子女的問題以後要兩名以上他才有進入這個資格而且同時他還要具備可能收入等等的符合相關資格他才能夠入住社宅但我想在不管在在這個數據上面不管是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7944.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7958.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
学术的数据上面还是在很多媒体报道调查里面其实台湾现在很多民众他在家庭所得的开支上面他的买房子的钱跟他要不要养儿女的钱他某种程度上是呈现排斥作用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7959.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7974.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以如果我們都認同說少子化現在是很嚴重的國安問題的情況之下我們應該想我們的確是在想盡辦法去解決少子化的問題那有什麼樣的東西能夠排除讓大家感生或願意生或提供獎勵等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7974.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7991.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我想住宅可能会是一个很重要的一个方向因为住宅在我们家庭所得的支出比里面来讲是可能是最高的一个部分所以如果能够把这地方帮他省下来他可能有机会去处理去做这件事情他愿意去生小孩等等的所以说我们特别提出来原因就是因为 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7992.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8011.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
把這個條件稍微放寬一點因為本來是要兩位那是不是現在第一個降到一位那也把所謂的所得的限制也把它拿掉我想這對於我們的出生率或許有一定程度上的幫助那因為我在這個裡面也強調說我的條文裡面是未滿12歲子女的家庭納入新的優先比例是50% |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8012.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8033.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
好那這個比例當然大家可以討論但是為什麼提50%是因為我們本來的條文裡面有說針對弱勢的保障要40%好那我希望說當然弱勢的保障我們不要排擠到所謂本來社宅興建它本來一定比例要保障所謂弱勢的部分但是育有未成年子女這件事情在一般的社會直觀的價值裡面它不屬於弱勢啦但是問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8034.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8052.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們要不要讓社宅有更多更活化的可能性或是更多的家庭能夠入住像這一方面也對於社宅的標籤化能夠解決我覺得這是一個對整體社群來講是好事那比如說以台中為例台中很多社宅都是蓋在人口密集區交通方便區學區好的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8052.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8076.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那這樣子我想對於新的家庭就是對一種新手爸媽來講他能夠有機會露出這個社宅我覺得對他養一隻女也是一個呃正向鼓勵的作用那或許有機會把這東西附入法之後那也把它當成一個重大政策來做的話我想對於現在還在考慮我未來要買房子優先還是生小孩優先的這一群這個族群會有很大的鼓勵作用以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8079.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8099.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
謝謝黃建豪委員我們請蘇曉慧委員嘛對不對請好我的修法提案很簡單就是這個我們的弱勢現在羅列了這麼多項其中第七項是指身心障礙者所以原則上呢現在的執行狀況就是成年的身心障礙者那反過來如果是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8099.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8100.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
就這麼簡單 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8129.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8157.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
防塵還是二選一大家都年輕人都很辛苦這個來行政機關補充一下意見吧吳組長有請感謝各位委員所提案的這個項目的確那個少子化的這個議題在的確現在的這個不管是地方或中央都有進行相關的研究那院這邊也有做過這類的研究現在的少子化的現象裡面大概就兩大的因素大概就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8158.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8174.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
第一個就是職場的問題第二個就是居住的問題居住的問題就是希望能夠有一個穩居的環境所以買房也好租房也好對他們來講都是希望能夠有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8174.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8203.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
提供長期穩定的居住的話那他才會有生育的一個意願那也是因為這樣所以我們在之前的這一個租金補貼包括代管裡面大概都有針對這個婚姻家庭都有提供一些現有的一個補助的一個額度包含了這個現有的租金補貼那遇有結婚跟遇有子女的人我們都有加碼的這個補助所以現階段其實這一些都在推動當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8204.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8214.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們推動最主要因為它是一個政府鼓勵的對象而不是一個把它貼到弱勢族群的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8215.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8237.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為去拔貼要弱勢的話它又會涉及到跟社會福利相關的一個補貼的一個對接的一個關係第二個呢也容易讓社會對這一個結婚生小孩這件事變成是一個標籤化的一個想法所以這是我們在第一個覺得在去把它轉到那一個部分的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8237.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8252.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
會相對是一個比較有疑慮的一個現象那第二個因為在110年才把這個弱勢的這一個比例從30%提高到40%也就是說我們執行到現在才第4年那是不是就要這麼快去 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8253.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8281.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
做一個處理這就是產生的第一個要討論值得討論的一個現象第二個就是說在最近在這幾年社宅已經經過了兩輪以上的抽籤大致上都已經看出一個現象弱勢戶的抽籤因為他可以抽弱勢戶也可以抽一般戶他的中籤比例已經是遠超過一般戶而且他佔有的比例已經實質上已經達半了 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8282.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8302.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那還要再去把這個修高的話很可能它實際上可能就會達到六成甚至佔了七成以上對於其他也需要設宅更大的這一個族群的一般族群來講它的排擠效果可能會更可怕所以這一點也是我們在這過程當中有表達出這樣的一個憂慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8305.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8327.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
因為一旦是有弱勢戶的資格他實務上在抽籤他就比別人多一個機會這也是我們在過程當中一直對於地方政府開放其他類型的住戶的對象的時候我們一樣也表達同樣的憂慮因為當你多給他一次簽的機會的時候他中簽率其實是比你想像的還要高很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8328.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8357.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那這樣的話對於一般需要的廣大民眾那其實他的排擠效果是相當可觀所以我們才會建議這個部分可以用其他多元的方式來處理也包含了我們也可以透過現行的一個出租辦法那針對地方有一些需要的話我們適度做一些調整而不需要在現階段的立法裡面就去把它入了法以後那就又變得太剛性而且會變得太 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8358.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8375.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
太標籤化了這一個部分那當然巧惠委員所提到的這一個部分就是說把未成年的這一個納入考慮這一個部分我們也會可以再來演繹看因為當時是以他的確是以成年而且這個對他實際上的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8376.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8395.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
他已經外出在工作可能在工作在獨立了他需要有這樣的環境那育有未成年子女他育有未成年的身心障礙者他的現象可能就比較複雜一點他也可能有父母在照顧現階段也確實有父母在照顧他還不是一個在屬於自己獨立生活的樣態的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8396.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8408.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那他是屬於的確需要這樣的環境還是說他因為有父母照顧他不一定完全需要這樣那這一點我覺得是可以再來做一個研議來討論看是不是要把這一類的也納入我想做這樣的一個補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8412.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8440.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這是不是請國土署提供一些相關的資料因為你剛剛講中線率嘛對不對所以他其實應該是有需求的人申請的人他有一個破嘛他有一個池子在裡面那因為基本上他第一條修法的時候他一定是配得到處理嘛你如果維持百分之四十的弱勢戶比例然後你把未成年者放進去那當然那就知識體大他就很強的排擠效益但我們要放寬多少的門檻他才會盡量達到一個比較平衡的狀態我覺得需要一定的數字來做支撐所以這部分是不是請國土署提供一些相關的資料因為之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8441.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8459.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
中央的部分大概是他實務上市已經到46%地方的已經有高達49%那所以這樣的比就說以現階段都已經衝到這麼高你如果再把比例往上抬其實我們就擔憂可能就是60%甚至60%以上這樣對其他更需要的那個群 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8460.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8479.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
另外我要請教一下以現行實務上來講現在在中央跟地方上針對這個的比例是有是一致標準還是不一樣用40這個標準在做處理但是他會同時握有兩支籤他會連一般戶他也去登記我了解 因為一般戶大家都可以抽嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8479.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8497.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
對,但是你弱勢戶就要有弱勢身份才可以抽嘛那現在我們在討論弱勢身份的問題因為我剛剛聽到署長前面有講一段啦就是說地方自己管的社宅他有自己裁量的空間嗎會不會有中央跟地方現在標準不一致的問題呃,身份啦有些地方允許未婚育的可以因為地方政府有開放出所謂的木林戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8498.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8513.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
有所謂的睦鄰戶或特殊身份戶但是我們也告訴他你這樣可能會造成更大不公平比如說你睦鄰戶開放了10%可是其實這一群人他可能拿到了10幾%甚至20%所以你會排擠更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8514.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8541.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
一般戶那所以後來好像這一類也被監察院相關的去做一些糾正不應該隨意去開放一些特定身份我的意思是說現在不管是中央的社宅或地方的社宅到底標準是一致的還是不一致的我們是希望都一致因為我們從你們的角度希望一致但實務上目前是不一致的那過去地方曾經出現有一些特度現在啦現在你剛說過去現階段是沒有啦現階段大家都趨於一致了好謝謝我理清一下沒有我們李崑禎委員然後再黃謙侯委員補充好不好謝謝來 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8544.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8561.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
謝謝主席那剛好來到這邊聽到署長在講那應該是這個住宅法第四條這個弱勢的身份那其實因為我也有提案提案的因為上次其實我也有提過就是說你如果是家裡有身心障礙者但是他未成年 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8562.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8576.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們對於這個身心障礙者我們是有給他這個落實身分可以讓他抽籤但是家裡有未成年的就沒有可是就會造成說這個我家裡是有一個未成年但是我就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8577.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8602.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
有一個身障者但是我沒有辦法去說但是其實他是符合除非他成年之後才符合這個資格那其實上次講完之後我也不曉得說這個你們有沒有去做過做過一個調查或是說大概屬於這一類的人大概可能性有多少那會不會因為這樣子有什麼排擠的作用那如果沒有排擠的作用的話那是不是能夠把這一條把它納進去那另外一個其實上次 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8603.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8625.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我有提到就是說如果你是有兩名以上未滿六歲的家庭那我們就鼓勵生育或是說65歲以上的長者可以延長居住的時間因為我們有提到說小孩子可能未來可能住三年三年六年那有可能就是求學的階段那個學籍剛好在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8625.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8644.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那我們希望說不要因為你年限到了然後你就必須要遷到其他的學籍去那對孩子的受教這方面也會有影響那老人家也是老人家就是說他如果在那邊然後這個可能也有新的生活圈了那結果年限一到然後你就是又要讓他離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8646.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8665.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那也可能對於這個我們要照顧長者這部分會受到一點影響那所以說才會上次我也提到說是不是有兩名以上未滿六歲的家庭或是六十五歲的長者可以延長居住的時間我不曉得署長這方面有沒有什麼一個比較新的看法我們一起好不好黃先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8667.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8694.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好謝謝主席謝謝署長署長那個現行法令是講說就現行他的所謂的我剛講的未成年之女兩人以上的這件事他還要同時符合前項經濟社會弱勢的身份是指家庭總收入平均分配全家人口之金額及家庭財產會超過一定比一定的那個比例嗎他是在這個之下然後有所謂未成年子女兩人以上他在他屬於百分之四十裡面這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8695.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8721.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那我今天談的不是在談這個我談的是說額外的就是說我們針對所謂少子女化問題我們提出一些方案來鼓勵大家能夠是他有更高的機率能夠好好的養育小孩到他可能去念小學或是念國中以後到這個階段這是我提案的一個精神那我想這些同事本身我覺得他其實跟我們部長之前提那個婚育宅的概念精神是一致的所以我是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8722.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8751.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
當然這個比例可以討論但是我覺得往這方向既然大家都是在往這方向說提供婚姻一宅那我這個概念其實也是一樣就是我提供的是大家只要你有生小孩但至少你的重親比例比較高嘛你就有更高更高的機率你不一定是弱勢因為為什麼要這樣做同時也是希望說我還是希望把那個所謂弱勢這個標籤這個社會的印象不要強化這件事情而是說我們就是提供的是所有的各種 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8752.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8768.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
各階層各種人大家都歡迎來住社宅而且他有一個養育小孩很友善的空間我想這對整個周邊社區也好對整個區域發展來講應該是正面的效果這是我那時候提案所以我不是希望我們要把它放在本來的40%裡面謝謝這個我覺得不失為一種方法他是切另外一塊出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8776.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8800.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
但是當然這當然就是跟一般戶的衝擊會比較大嘛對不對你等於是他等於是40%給弱勢嘛我剛剛看一下黃建豪委員版本40%給弱勢戶50%給豫有婚婚結婚且豫有子女的家庭然後剩下10%是一般戶變成是這樣沒關係我覺得可以討論今天大體討論的用意就是這樣好大家不同的版本不同的發想好那個剛剛針對昆城委員建豪委員這個請國路組再做一下補充說明有請感謝啦因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8804.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8831.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
應該大致上是這麼說啦社宅數量不夠其實是最大的問題啦因為一出來我相信各種關心的議題都會進來那各種希望能夠加入社宅的都會想要過來這我想都可以那我目前其實中央跟地方也只能說努力的去興建但事實上從前幾輪的抽籤大家都看得出來其實這中間的中籤率 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8832.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8855.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
其實都非常的低啦 都非常的低大概現在大概都是只有一般戶大概都只剩10%左右 甚至低於10%那弱勢戶大概大概有15%甚至有高達25%的這個機率已經可以進到這個裡面那所以我們在觀察這樣的過程當中 我們自己都很小心的盡量不要再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8856.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8881.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
傾斜到某一邊去可能是一個很大的一個要考慮的重點那所以在這一點我們才會建議是先因為畢竟才修正後才過了四年是暫時先不不已去動但是婚姻宅這樣的一個概念我們接下來會努力去落實在租金補貼跟包租代管這個部分會針對婚姻家庭會有在做一些加碼的動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8882.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8905.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那這一些我想在現有的社宅以外他如果在外面承租房子或是他以包租貸款的方式去租到的房子那我們會提供給他在租金補貼更高的優惠那還有在包租貸款方面呢會提供給他們年度會有一些修繕費如果未成年者他的居家環境需要有一些修繕 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8906.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8931.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
比如說它有一些安全的這個護具它必須要在室內要去裝修那有一些彈性的地墊它必須要去鋪設避免小孩子撞傷那這一些我們是用這種方式來協助他們建構比較安全的居家環境那這樣子的話能夠在社宅以外它在租金補貼跟包租代管也能夠有好的環境那至於現階段的社宅裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8932.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8954.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那就可能後續我覺得我們在政策上再逐步來再去調整因為要再去考慮到說會抽籤的比重會不會過度傾斜這個問題讓我們再去做一些修正但是就會像大家所思考就盡量不要把它放在弱勢那一塊因為不管是放到裡面去擠在那一個40%裡面或者是你把它放到50%對兩邊其實都 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8956.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8978.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
有點過度傾斜的一個問題那這一點可能要再讓我們再持續用比較多的數據再來做一些分析那委員所希望我們提出來的這個報告我們會在會後都會再提供好 謝謝這本期還是建議一下這我覺得真的也許到要徹底解決就是輪候取代抽籤要不然你怎樣分比例怎樣抽籤大家都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8979.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8993.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
都是很難公平所以我還講因為輪候比如說你把婚姻家庭就設為一個加分項或什麼的然後大家去排序我覺得也許是一個比較好的方向沒關係大家心態保持開放好針對社宅弱勢比例跟放寬認定標準請問大家還有意見嗎好那我們就這樣都列入紀錄好嗎第七個題目是是否應該明文規定社宅租金分級才所得別訂定分級收費標準各位有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9009.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9033.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個我跟署長對一下話 基本上其實六都都已經處理完畢了嘛對不對後來也正式公佈了我問一下這件事情六都跟非六都之間會不會有一些差別我跟署長討論一下因為現在有興建設宅的大部分都在六都那非六都的部分都是中央興建那我們自己的所得標準 住均分級制現在也跟地方政府都已經都對接完成了都對接完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9034.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9047.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
現在在你們發布最後跟大家商量的結果之後現在大家全體的一致都是四級就是四級然後全體大家都是一致就桃園會比較辛苦還要慢慢給他一段時間要調整但是基本上同意就對了對對他也認同OK |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9051.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9067.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
所以其實已經趨於一致化從政策的角度出發所以你們認為不用特別再需要修法因為按照所得分級制那一個會更困難而且會出現更多不公平的現象各位委員針對這個事有什麼要補充的意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9068.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9098.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
因為基本上這個題目比較久啦從第一會期大家就開始關注我跟大家報告一下那後來這個我們給了內政部給國務組一定時間嘛請他們跟各地方縣政府去協商那最後後來有一個比較具共識的一個結果啦好那我想說我剛剛跟署長確認這件事情現在非六都反正是都是中央建沒有這個問題那六都各自的收費版本標準跟這個相關往所得別的方式中央做了退讓然後有趨於一致所以中央認為說不用修法好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9098.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9100.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那個署長跟部長我可以有大體討論的時候提案說明有說 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9118.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9134.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這個第四條這個弱勢的家庭阿公阿嬤床這個問題雖然我們會排擠說今天那年輕人要去新城的家如果家人越多的時候 今天會排擠到我希望署長補充我們研議一下讓弱勢的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9144.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9154.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
裡面現在古代教養真的很多,很多阿公阿嬤出來跟你阿公阿嬤出來已經很辛苦了,裡面還帶著孩子這樣真的很辛苦所以說事實上這個問題要解,好不好?因為剛才我剛才在樓上時間剛才沒有公開在地上 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9169.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9170.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
該我現在補充 感謝主席給我這個機會補充謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9180.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9199.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那個我跟美會委員報告一下剛剛我們針對第六點討論的時候其實署這邊都會提供一些資料啦就是說到底如果按照不同委員的提案版本哪些人要納入會讓整個的比例變成什麼樣人數會做什麼樣的變化然後包含重簽率會有什麼樣的影響他們會做一些說明這個我跟您補充報告一下主委你要補充一下嗎針對美會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9202.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9211.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們也很怕某些特定對象再加進去其實現有的狀況就是若似乎食指已經接近 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9213.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9224.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
50%了 就抽籤的結果已經遲遲接近50%啊你今天不管加進什麼 或是把它拉大其實都會讓他們不是啦 署長 你說 我知道是弱勢你給你50% 但是裡面的條款裡面我了解我可以說說嗎 那沒辦法 人哪有 我說你們現在未來的50%裡面的條款裡面是不是那個弱勢 要來調整一下 這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9240.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9249.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
所以報告就是說因為你現在對40%變50%的現有40%的經營抽籤的結果屬實就是已經中了50%所以他一半後也可以去抽所以他有兩支籤所以實際上已經佔了50%你現在如果改對50%他還有兩支籤他就可以衝到差不多60%甚至超過60% |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9267.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9291.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這樣對一半戶來說那排擠現象會越來越...因為現在一半戶的中簽率是10%甚至10%以下弱勢戶是15%甚至到25%的狀況會變成會嚴重失衡啦所以我們現在小心謹慎在看這個情形就是說希望它維持一定時間的穩定度以後再再來調整因為畢竟社債它經過兩輪而已抽籤也很多經過兩輪而已所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9295.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9311.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
先讓它比較穩定當然讓社宅的量慢慢變大的時候再來談這個要去調整比例可能會更有機會要不然現在社宅變得這麼瘦所以這部分是跟委員做一個說明我當然最大的願望是社宅成長的速度比較快這樣大家會比較有機會好啦 跟你們一起討論一下我的意見討論一下好不好 義兄謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9324.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9341.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 我們回到第七點 第七點大家其實非六都中央主導嘛 六都中央地方已經有共識所以其實這一條大家都沒有修法的迫切性跟必要性嘛 OK大家也沒有別的意見好 最後 第八點 針對住宅法其他相關議題天馬行空也可以 來 請黃建華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9342.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9367.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
好謝謝主席列了這個天馬行空的議題這個我想要跟這個內政部我們部長跟署長反映一個我之前說的那個陳情感後來處理好就是說大家現在在擔憂說像比如說包租或代管的這個就民間釋出的這一部分的房子不夠多那我們政策上理論上應該是鼓勵大家把空屋拿出來供社宅來使用嘛是自網的方向做嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9368.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9387.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那你看我去現階段台灣的空屋率其實算算蠻高的就是很多人可能只有兩棟或三棟那他之所以不拿出來我跟你分更加分享個案那我覺得這後續如果數據的話可能要去跟財政部討論一下就是說有房地合一歲的問題五年內拿出來出租他就不適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9388.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9417.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那個稅額的部分他就不能抵那個稅他就是會被會被追回我這就處理過類似的的案子就是他們那個陳情人是說我我是基於公益出租政府鼓勵我出租我拿去公益出租結果被追稅追了幾十萬他他就沒好他乾脆就不弄了所以這部分我覺得這是如果只有確鎖之後你有想這幾年的呃交屋量跟交易量其實蠻高的那有可能在這五年內有很多房子是這種案例那如果他們能夠解決掉這個房地合一稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9418.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9438.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
免他不用受到這五年限制的話或許啦但從這角度來思考換有沒有機會他有足夠數量他讓他釋出那我們的租屋市場就有可能有一定的比例提高嗎那當然裡面條件大家可以去討論但是我覺得如果能往這方向來思考或許有機會把這個方式多點出來以上是我的分享謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9439.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9449.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
主席,在這裡要跟我們部長和署長討論一下因為主席說都可以在背後都可以討論喔在這裡我是要說,家裡企業社會住宅在我家的股東城的時候是完全,我們的樸化裡面是完全零所以在中央跟地方政府跟OB府的操縱的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9468.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9475.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
也在最近已經完成了三個社會主宰未來還有三個,我是要讓署長跟部長說我認為剛才大家都說到重點好事要做好事,處不夠處不夠的當中,我也願望自己可以再找好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9491.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9497.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
第七個、第八個,但是在這個第四個、第五個、第六個要趕快去到當地,我們才有那些家人來開改變平常事業,這些年輕人也好,若是家庭的生活,因為說實在,我都覺得說什麼人想說下去都 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9518.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9521.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
不重要啦最主要就是可以讓地方自己去關心社會住宅的心因為以前的標籤都說不可以來我這裡去來我這裡去我會幫忙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9534.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9538.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
但是現在大家都想要跟社會主宰做出名因為現在我們的企業說實在沒有輸一般的健身還有做得很好,還有立地可以在出名協會來共同使用所有我願望補充和輸入的時候,我認為自己是一個名義代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9560.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9569.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
拜託,繼續推出公家機關的地,這才是最重要的因為公家機關、台積電,我們公家機關非常需要年輕人的聯合作以上,拜託好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9581.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9606.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我兩個一起回答可以 請部長辛苦了我兩個一起回應啦齁那個剛剛王委員所講的假期期的所在我們要來努力啦齁但是我也要跟王委員報告就是說未來啦齁我們要拿到比較多那個社宅的部分齁不需要要一定精修公寓的土地啦我們是希望說齁不需要公寓的土地連後民間它在蓋的時候啦套過什麼樣的機制連後你可以放 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9610.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9615.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為畢竟社宅是不是由政府來居住來興建或者是說包租代管或是租金 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9633.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9649.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
進去住的人他沒有擁有房子也沒有擁有土地啦那如果原來的民間的人願意說把他的房子或是他的土地然後讓給社會住宅興建這樣的機制的話我們未來會做大面積的處理多元興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9650.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9657.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
不一定是多元興建社會住宅不是這樣子 多元興建提供多少需要的人 這是一個剛剛黃委員所提到的部分可能我們會剛好從反的方向來講現在我們手頭上所知道全台灣的空屋大概是11萬戶 相當的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9670.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9696.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那如果以全台灣的人口來比較的話我們人口並沒有增加的狀況再加上目前的建案量也一直在往上攀升所以空屋會越來越多那空屋如果放在那邊等待市場的行情或是要銷售漁屋等等這些呢對建商來講他們當然是希望說如果像委員所提的我這個空屋稅盡量降低等等會被鼓勵不是 我們可能會相反 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9697.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9707.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
就是好幾年的以來如果你沒有辦法銷售出去的話我說不定會把你的稅負提高除非你釋放出來讓社會住宅使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9709.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9728.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
但是你剛剛是要降低稅負啊黃委員的意思是說有人願意釋出啦但是因為房地合一的關係啦一共有房地合一稅啊對啦是房地合一稅的部分就是說這是一個方向但是呢這個方向呢我們還需要找譬如說建商也好或是其他的人一起來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9729.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9755.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以我要跟各位報告就是說我還是一再強調現在呢政府的方向真的不是在公有土地上面讓政府用公務預算去興建大量的社會住宅而是現在民間裡面到底有沒有更好的量能讓公部門跟那個私人的民間部門可以一起合作取得大量的社會住宅然後進入我們社會住宅使用了這樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9756.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9785.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這大概是我們主要方向我們署長跟市長他們都還一定要補充所以我們補充一下根文說明一下應該來講現在有兩個走向如果你本身持有的有三房四房要避免課徵囤房稅去採行你把部分房屋納入公益出租人的範疇就是你去申請包租代管那這一個在囤房稅那一個部分它是可以被避免的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9786.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9797.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這是第一個關鍵那您講的這個案例比較像是他有去申請的新清安因為新清安他是不可以只能自住不得出租 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9798.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9826.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
一旦你有出租行為被查到的話那你就喪失新簽案資格你的貸款利率就會往上升所以他是一個兩房的走向那基本上之前修正的部分在囤房稅的這個部分現在已經有一些效果出來就是說有些房東持有三房四房了他已經會主動願意搬來所以這一點如果在地方推廣的話也可以把委員在地方可以推廣這個概念如果你手中持有的房比較多可以適度的釋出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9827.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9849.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那這樣的話還可以降低課徵囤房稅的這個疑慮市長委員委員報告一下因為現在有關於空屋釋出的部分第一個部分的話如果他是出租給社會住宅的一個使用他可以用比較低的一個房屋稅的一個稅率大概1.2用自住的部分那委員應該關心的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9849.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9873.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們現在有些民眾如果或建商提供出來做出租可是他日後如果要移轉的時候像是土增稅或是房地合一稅那因為房地合一稅他有規定六年內如果你有出租的情況你就不能享受優惠的一個稅率或是土增稅的話如果你要用自用的話是一年內不能有出租的情形會不會影響到民眾一個釋出的那個意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9875.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9888.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那那個部分因為財政部之前他們也有去做一個分析那可能我們之後會再今天複稅署也有代表過來可能我們後續還要跟他們再做一下討論副市長要不要補充一下複稅署 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9890.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9911.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
有關於他那個出租以後他到時候就是不符合他出售的時候因為他不是自住嘛他就不能適用我們的自住優惠的部分我説明一下因為房屋出租他就是出租了以後他就是有租金收入嘛他其實某種程度他是個投資行為啦那跟我們房子是自己來住自住這個不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9912.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9941.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那我们房地合一税针对于保障自住的这个精神那我们是自住给清税而且这个清税是非常优惠的这个这个租税优惠那因为出租他跟自住两个性质就是不一样那如果出租的房子他后来不出租了他拿到市场上去卖那如果卖有获利那这个就跟一般房子的买卖有获利一样那我们就适用一般的这个科税规定来科税那就是没有适用 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9942.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9964.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
这个因为他不是自住就没有适用自住的这个优惠啦那当然我们也考虑到说如果让这个公益出租他到时候出售的时候也可以用自住优惠那我们是觉得是说也要考虑一个点啊这个点就是说那会不会这个反而我们鼓励这些公益出租的房东你把房子拿去卖因为卖的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9965.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9991.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
有租稅優惠那會不會這樣子會影響到這個公益出租市場的穩定性因為我們我們是希望說房東穩定的在公益出租市場把房屋釋出我們不是鼓勵他拿出去賣那這個他賣的時候如果有優惠那我們也要思考到這一點說這樣子是不是這個政策的導向是不是符合我們現在的政策這樣子以上說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9996.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10009.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
其實我覺得大家的方向越來越接近了就是希望可以有效的釋出恐怖嘛對不對然後新辦社宅的速度要加快嘛其實大家的方向都還蠻有共識的好 針對其他跟住宅相關的還有沒有什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10011.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10034.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
沒有齁 好 我們我重新複述一下那個重點我就不再複述但是有幾些要提供資料的我再提醒一下齁一個是這個包租貸款公益出租人的課稅的相關資料好不好 這個負稅組這邊要協助幫忙一下到底多少是公益出租人啊到底人數會是多少那個比例87%怎麼算的好 相關一些資料請提供那 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10035.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10059.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
地震師這邊要提供的是你們最新的針對租屋市場透明更多詳細的資料的表格嘛對不對跟前期的差異好不好這一定要趕快盡快的來提供那這個國土署這邊我看一下這個非營利司法人陳出轉出的資料嘛對不對我們剛剛有講還有剛剛社會住宅那個種遷率跟那個池子的相關的人數資料好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10060.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10067.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
然後其他主要剛剛特別提的這些資料大概是這些啦好不好所以請我們會後你們要多長時間可以提供早一點好不好兩個禮拜可以嗎兩週內把相關資料補進來好不好並同今天的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10077.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10106.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
並同今天的這個會議紀錄我們作為後續這個逐條討論的時候的參考好那既然大家都沒有問題也沒有再補充那我們大體討論就到此結束謝謝大家這兩個多小時的會議雖然蠻燒腦的但是我想非常的有效率那基本上也都表達了各自的意見所以我想這是非常有意義的討論謝謝大家的參與那我們討論事項所列議案我們就另定期進入逐條討論本次會議到此結束謝謝大家現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10111.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10115.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
真的好啦好啦 這樣想也是對啦 |