| IVOD_ID |
16767 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16767 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-18T08:31:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-18T13:13:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:42:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc7536b190c0b7f68cce1f9dc46489d2418b19dddded0b194f210c2190a2cdefca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、教育部部長、法務部矯正署署長、內政部警政署署長、勞動部、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷年新高，達4.7萬餘人次，現行少年輔導、矯正效能，包括校園霸凌處理機制、高關懷學生、安置輔導、保護管束、感化教育、職能訓練、更生系統、中介轉銜機制、追蹤輔導、逆境社工等，及《少年事件處理法》『行政輔導先行』施行迄今近兩年，相關制度之檢討與策進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【6月16日及18日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:00 - 13:13:00 |
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16869.83346875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2829].speaker |
SPEAKER_07 |
| transcript.pyannote[2829].start |
16870.86284375 |
| transcript.pyannote[2829].end |
16871.11596875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2830].speaker |
SPEAKER_07 |
| transcript.pyannote[2830].start |
16871.58846875 |
| transcript.pyannote[2830].end |
16879.19909375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1888.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1917.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 現在開始開會 我們介紹到場委員王鴻薇委員 王逸川委員 陳培宇委員好 我們接著介紹到場的官員司法院副秘書長 王副秘書長 法務部部長 鄭明謙部長衛生福利部 邱部 邱部長邱部長好 教育部 鄭英耀部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1918.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1944.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
法務部矯正署 周輝煌署長內政部 張榮欣署長其一位即介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再注意介紹並列入公報記錄本日議程排定專題報告並被質詢現在進行報告委員會發言時間3分鐘我們先請司法院王副秘書長報告下一位請法務部政部長準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1955.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1970.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家早安本院奉邀前來過委員會就直接少年司法議題進行專題報告資究與本院業務有關的部分報告如下敬請指教第一個概況 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1972.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1997.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
統計113年度少年事件的那個收案有新收23,198件那其中詐欺案件新收8292件佔了整體新收的35.74%那全部案件中開始審理的有13,836件移送檢查署的404件那第二個部分建立少年司法的風險管理機制部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1998.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2013.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
目前办了少年保护管束风险管理执行计划尤其对于参加诈骗组织担任车手的少年特别安排了风险管理加强职能训练就业媒合以及密切的追踪辅导 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2014.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2036.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
提升少年處遇執行效益的規劃部分目前司法院優先建置了兩項新制第一個是新版省前調查報告的修訂還有一個是編制高風險少年的評估量表現在在事辦中會依評估規劃調保分流那個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2037.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2056.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
全面那個施行那第三個增補少年調保官人力部分呢114年呢增加了54名調保官還有8名的那個心測員跟8名的心理輔導員那第四強化精進安置輔導感化教育的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2057.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2084.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
有關於強化中介轉嫌還有安置輔導機制的作為對於各少年法庭裁定中介轉嫌還有裁定安置輔導的少年建立了設政機關的聯繫窗口那優化矯正教育少年的作為本院建請法務部、幺童教育部在矯正學校增加特殊教育人力還有增設特教班以照護特殊身心需求的少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2087.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2100.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那第五點與司法官學院跟法務部矯正署合作研議接受矯正教育少年出校後的載房預防其能了解並提供矯正學校精進輔導教育的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2103.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2118.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第六點 經統計普選少年在行政輔導先行制度112年7月1號施行之後呢113年少年法庭裁定交付保護處分的有56件比112年的266件減少了78.95%那從這裡可以看出來 這裡已經有達成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2128.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2144.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
當時把那個破險少年依行政府導先行這個制度的修法還有兒童權利公約減少司法處遇的精神好 以上報告敬請各位委員及先進不吝指教 謝謝好 謝謝複密 下一位我們請鄭部長那再麻煩邱部長準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2154.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2176.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉要貴委員會報告並被執行之報告如下進行執行由於少年事件處理好於112年6月21日經總統公布修正至113年1月1日施行其中第18條第7立法流說明檢察官與刑事案件偵查中就少年處罰部分因一眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2177.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2189.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
少年法庭處理不得進行偵查因此本部級所屬機關主要分工為查緝成年犯罪少年矯正教育及校園法治宣導就刑事犯罪查緝部分現成兒少兒權罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2194.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2215.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
組織犯罪條例、人口販運法、毒品、毒味條例,經針對城內利用兒少犯罪,須有加重行政規定。在行政分別1.13年12月11日、1.14年2月20日,召開跨縣部研商會就城少公安相關的犯罪共同研商策進作為,本部會落實改等決議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2217.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2236.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
與韓警各檢察署定期召集市安內、少年法院、少年法庭、司法檢察機關召開研商會議研商相關的事宜如有需中間協調事項本部在事實邀請司法人體內政部警政署召回研商令最高檢察署、台高檢察署經有建立督導機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2238.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2268.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就少年矯正教育部分本部研擬少年矯正學校處域實施條例就矯正學校提供明確及合一之法制依據即將進一步公實精神招呼支援強化校園內心理支持體系同時著手改善學校硬體環境與學習氛圍並建立完善的校園霸凌防治及通報流程本部在特別重視每位學生的特殊需求提供適性的處域強化專業人力的配置建構即時回應的服務網絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2269.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2292.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
並從家庭層面提供實質資源讓少年回歸社會後重啟人生的力量與希望在為提升少年的法律智能本部持續辦理各項少年法制的宣導包含各地等積極的提供實質資源以致少年的受試學校製作宣導素材來辦理全國學生預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2294.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2317.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
犯罪預防漫畫及創意短片的政見活動等本部所屬個別執事犯罪偵查、刑事矯正及司法保護必竭力激起查緝、承認犯罪惡質、利用少年犯罪、富裕少年矯緻的處遇多元化來創造青少年健全發展的環境以上報告進行指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2320.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2323.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好謝謝部長好那接下來我們請邱部長報告下一位麻煩鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2325.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2352.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席、各位委員先生、女士今天大宴第十一屆第三會期司法及法治委員會前提委員會邀請本部就請少年保護相關議題案提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝指教依據行政案及司法案於113年1月召開的兩次專案會議決議列以少年保護及刑事案件由少年調查官主責輔導輔導過程中發現有其有社會安全網誌相關服務需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2352.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2369.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
各地方政府、少母會、學校、社安網資、其他體系皆為協力輔導單位如少年家庭有相關脆弱需求、兒少保護等情勢少年調查官得依少子法第四十二條第五項恰當當地社福單位加防中心提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2369.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2388.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
必要之服務及協助資源另一而授權法第68條規定內容地方主管機關對於交互緩化交易結束停止後面出應以追蹤福島至少一年為及早衍接社區交通計畫本部至111年起推動逆境少人及家庭支持服務計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2390.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2397.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
經轉介本服務計畫提供少年及家庭支持服務並以少年離開矯正學校後能持續追蹤112人、113人分別服務416案家 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2404.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2430.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
應依兒少權法等相關設政法規提供相關保護及措施112年及113年分別服務1,060案及740案家應本部近幾年來透過經費補助各地方政府佈建社府中心及113年第一設置156處針對脆弱家庭及兒少提供家庭支持性服務以強化家庭保護因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2431.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2453.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
本部將持續配合行政院政策規劃與各部會合作落實推動兒少偏差行為預防與輔導工作及提升家庭保護及教養功能降低兒少之犯罪風險本部曾答應各委員會支持教育監督在此致上謝神並請各位委員繼續予以支持 以上謝謝謝謝那我們下一位請鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2464.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2485.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主席 各位委員 先生 女士 大家早安首先再次利用這個機會感謝我們華務部衛福部以及警政相關的單位協助教育部在校園青少年的許多相關行為的一些協助輔導以及相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2487.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2498.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在這邊首先報告偏差行為學生的輔導根據這個行政院跟立法院依據少年事件處理法規定那麼已經在110年2月24號會嫌訂定發布的少年偏差行為預防及輔導辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2505.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2527.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那循這個先預防後輔導之執行作為程序依據該辦法規定學校得知少年有偏差行為應主動提供輔導資源召開評估會議依少年個別需求訂定輔導計畫結合學生輔導諮商中心等資源與學生家長保持密切聯繫必要時得結合社政及相關機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2529.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2537.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
協助辦理那麼針對未滿12歲之兒童也存用 散開了一個規定那麼也感謝大院在去年13年12月18號也通過了學生輔導法我們依據在專任的輔導是會增加603位 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2545.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2569.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
任的專業輔導人員專任輔導老師會增加603位專任專業輔導人員預計會增加136到192名針對學生的偏差行為依其需求訂定個別化的輔導方案提供介入性輔導措施針對學生嚴重行為偏差重大違規行為則提供除役性的一個輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2571.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2591.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
其次有關高關懷學生中介轉型機制為促進中途錯學及中途離校學生就學及生活適應本部國教署補助學校辦理彈性輔導與高關懷課程如果中錯學生無法適應原有的就學環境那麼經學校複學輔導就學 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2593.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2608.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
讀小組來審查通過經監護人或法定代理人同意那麼就可以安排就讀這個詞彙班資源中途班以及合作式的一個中途班那麼有關校園霸凌裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2609.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2635.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
學校也會根據這一個當事人積極來提供協助主動輔導並就學生的學習狀況人際關係及家庭生活進入深入的了解與關懷對於生對生的一個霸凌事件成立的時候會對行為人提供心理諮商與輔導或其他的一個協助我想有關這個霸凌這個校園霸凌重大事件那麼學校也都會邀 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2636.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2659.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個請求這個警政跟設政機關或司法機關來依據少事法兒童及少年福利權益保障法等相關的規定來來協助辦理那麼最後呢我想有關的相關的這些校園的許多的這一些學生的輔導我利用這個機會再次感謝來自於我們警政、設政、勞政、司法相關等教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2660.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2675.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
的網絡來協助我們學校提供一個更友善的一個學習環境謝謝大家也請我們各位以及召集人給我們指導謝謝好謝謝部長好那請問一下其餘提出書面報告機關有沒有口頭補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2677.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2699.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那沒有的話 機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘 必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長 上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃益川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2714.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2730.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 主席 今天各位部長先不用上來因為我看了你們的報告我發現你們每個人都阻止了自己的防火牆出去後就叫教育部不關閉事情發生後就叫衛福部不關閉 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2732.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2756.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那在這個出了這個矯正機關以後,又去法務部矯正署,沒關係那請問一路人在弄丟人的,一路人在走的,不去也好的,是誰的事我發現你們沒有人要來承擔這一塊,有些學生回到學校兩天又不見了你們的報告裡頭全部都寫正面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2757.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2773.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
輔導多少啊 叫多少孩子回去學校啊可是回去學校之後 又離開學校了這又沒人管了他如果沒有犯罪 正在醞釀犯罪正在被培訓要犯罪 那也不知道為什麼要管 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2774.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2785.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
剛才法務部長說 做的漫畫 動畫 比賽 會做的那些孩子 都是心情比較好今天這個節目也沒有關係 他們都留在那裡 沒有辦法去做所以這一塊啊 再請各部 各部會 看是要叫政務委員去協調還是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2798.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2819.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
沒有一個好,也沒有一個家庭的,也沒有一個矯正機關的,一個老人、老年人的,這些的孩子他可能接下來就是犯罪的潛在的這個份子啊這一些看誰要來想辦法,找到他們來協助他們好,接下來我請這個法務部的鄭部長好,鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2827.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2848.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
委員長部長好請問這個前幾天質詢的時候有委員放了一卷叫做法務部的示範袋文字是這樣法務部的示範袋你們有這種東西嗎法務部沒什麼徵信的所謂的示範袋這個絕對沒有可是你也沒直接告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2852.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2879.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這部分那個示範帶這部分我並沒有 我有仔細在看我並沒有就 因為這個委員剛開始講說這是要放徵訊光碟意思講這是徵訊光碟 後來就講說是示範帶但是說完後才講說是示範帶好 所以您長府發了一個聲明嘛聲明說你們沒有這個東西嘛好 第二個針對這個立委在質詢台上用來源不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2880.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2890.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
妨礙司法公正 造成社會誤解 錯誤聯想現在 歸縮 不敢提來源這樣的問政啊請問我們補充喔請問我們補充 臨華務部的新聞稿裡面啊說這個窮行不好 裡面也會來延議 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2907.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2924.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
相關的這個規定你們會哪個方向去研議對這些的一個見證應該在法庭上來做一個公防之用不應該拿到外面來做其他這個公防以外其他法庭活動以外的一些好 那我請問鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2925.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2944.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
進行中的案件啊 我王一川不是當事人 我也不是律師 我也不是檢察官 我也不是什麼辯護的人 我都不是我可以在偵查過程中 拿到偵訊光碟 聽到偵訊光碟的內容嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2947.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2976.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這部分跟委員報告這些可以copy這些徵訊光碟的這一種的徵訊的一些的資料這個訴訟法第33條有做這樣的一個規定訴訟法做這樣的一個規定就是說辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷宗證物跟抄錄重置又攝影那這種最主要是要行使防禦潛資用這個是不能夠做其他的使用非正當的使用而且法案組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2977.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2992.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第38條有規定這個法庭的錄音錄影之人取得這些的內容不得散播公開一個播送而且要有正當的一個目的所以如果王逸川能夠聽到這些徵訊的光碟不管那個歌都叫他不管的那聽到的人有事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2998.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3023.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這部分我想這個就是這個個案反正在審理中審理中的這些資料在法庭上用不能夠再做其他的一個非正當的資料那如果把這些資料不管他重置完拿出來怎樣怎樣轉述搞一些有的沒的請問把這些東西拿出來的人去散佈的人不管他的目的是什麼反正不是訴訟要用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3025.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3047.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他交給了另外一個完全不相干的人請問這樣的辯護人或者這樣的檢察官或者這樣的法官現在叫法官檢察官跟這一個律師嘛辯護人以後都處理到這嘛這樣用出來之後 假設律師律師會受到什麼樣的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3050.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3075.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個是屬於那個 如果說屬於目的外因為這個是要法庭之用嘛那如果這樣的話 蒐集處理這有個資法的一個問題所以那一天6月16日我再提醒說這個有個資法的一個問題喔如果說律師 這個律師是製作的這個這個依託法律的違反個資法這個甚至有那個律師違反律師倫理規範這有律師法的一個應付懲戒的一個室友好 所以這位律師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3075.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3099.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
拿這些東西拿出來完全不相干的人拿給他的好朋友都要重製變造各式各樣的改變然後拿出來公開播放那那個律師有事喔這部分有可能有違反那個各司法的問題這個是個別的個案這個要調查才會知道我們說的是一個通案好第二個如果有人看過了徵訊筆錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3106.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3124.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
把這個筆錄的文字啊,叫兩個N完都要N,NN的料,給出來播放審判中的案子齁,在這個審判中的案子,有人筆錄擴寬了,抄寫了,抄寫叫兩個都要N,NN的料公開播放 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3126.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3146.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
會影響法官的心證嗎?會影響社會的輿論嗎?在審理中的案件,我們是希望維護一個獨立審判的空間我們不需要用這種的方式去干涉法院的一個審判這個是粉療四天,我們是不贊成這樣的一個行為好,那請司法院的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3149.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3157.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
現在外界有疑慮,就是說這件大事會不會影響法官在審理過程中就是說這法官也在看電視,這法官也在看網路,也在看立法院的職部,看一看就說哎喲,這這樣碰下去可能會如何如何法官在這件事情上的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3174.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3198.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
你們的訓練,我不是說你,你不是法官你們的訓練會跟這個法官的訓練過程中你們會做什麼樣的教育謝謝委員就是有關於法官的培訓很重要一個就是我們一定要恪守憲法那個精神那個獨立審判那當然就是說一個案件在審理的時候如果說外界有各種各樣的聲音的話用輿論來製造輿論化 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3202.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3223.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
法官當然就是他承受那個壓力事實上是會更大他是會依獨立審判那但是就是對他整個身心所遭受這種壓力事實上我們必須講就是說法官就是一般人所以他當然還是會有那個就是他必須要去抗拒這個壓力就會有身心這個就是我們一般講的叫做妨礙司法公正就是說這個要捧法官有這個壓力啦這個壓力有時候是無形的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3228.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3246.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有的人動會掉 有的人憂慘會擠一大堆可能會應用掉所以你們也要呼籲這審判中的案子 大家不要意見這麼多就讓法官有獨立的審判空間好 最後我再問這一個政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3248.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3277.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
如果拿了這個真訊筆錄或者聽了真訊筆錄拿了這個筆錄的紙本 竹子稿或者是聽過真訊筆錄也不是找人演就是用AI演用AI啦 用AI搞一些假的影片啦模仿當事人的聲音啦模仿當事人的聲音用這種方式公開的播放 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3278.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3307.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
影響了司法的公正這看起來也在變造偽造相關的這一個文書那這個事情啊在刑法上啊應該就是刑死偽造文書罪所以部長我在這邊啊公開告發黃國昌先生涉嫌違法刑法刑死偽造文書罪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3309.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3332.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我知道你不是檢查相關的這個機關我現在公開告發可以請你轉相關的這一個檢查署進行偵辦嗎?謝謝 那我們這部分就轉給他作為一個參考好 轉給這一個相關的檢查署去不管要偵辦 要了解 要怎樣啦總是齁 要給他社會說這樣做不行啦因為這做完齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3338.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3361.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這個立委這樣做之後,要抄襲牆壁喔,會模仿啦抄襲牆壁,聽到會模仿模仿之後,一萬六千元啦,真真假假我們的觀察官、我們的法官,就會看到一些奇奇怪怪的東西心裡的壓力都會有啦,極限啦,大大小小所以這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3363.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3378.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
請這個法務部,你不要怕發新聞稿,你的新聞稿全部都看到後面相關的規範,趕快看要怎麼樣來研議至於這些遊走在法律邊緣的立法委員,站在國會殿堂搞這種事情相關的檢察署要啟動相關的偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3384.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3395.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那希望法務部加油,也告訴國人說這件事,這樣是不好的,會影響台灣司法的獨立,好,謝謝謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝,那下一位我們請陳培鈺委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3411.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3434.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 謝謝主席那有先請法務部 謝謝麻煩法務部部長好 謝謝部長部長 剛剛王逸川委員已經公開告發了那我想要接著請問關於這個示範帶他們都還花了一些力氣不管是叫人演還是用AI做基本上都還是花了一些力氣那問題剛剛王委員都說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3436.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3461.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
可是我只要追問是說假設假設真的讓在野黨碾壓直播的法律修修修修改這個部分就以後呢所有的法庭只要被告申請或者是呢當這個法官他們覺得有必要就真的可以公開直播那是不是連造假就不用了在第一時間很多常啊啦操啊啦剛剛阿川委員說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3462.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3476.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
是不是當場就可以用這個直播的片段開始造假開始讓它在網路上擴散當場在第一時間就製造給法官、檢察官或者是當事人、律師所有的壓力你怎麼看? |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3478.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3500.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所有的這些的證據資料都是要在法庭上來做一個提供那我們是非常反對就是用其他任何的形式去干涉法院的一個審判那我們想審判的追求就是公正公開公正公平嘛所以也不能夠給一些陳審的一個法官有極大的壓力而去 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3501.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3520.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
去影響他的判決的一個進行那我想這個是非常反對那如果說用其他的一些的一些的變造的一個證據的一個方式譬如說我們錄音黨有變造的或者是不死的根本沒有這個然後就冒充就是這個我想這個可能法律上的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3521.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3543.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
如果說完全不實的話這可能是不是用電子的這些的AI合成或是怎麼樣這一種的我們很擔心這個可能有變造準文為變造那個準文書的一個問題那如果說這個裡面是用真代的去做一個變造或是怎樣的一個非法的一個違反各執法的一個提供這還有各執法41條的一個問題所以我們是非常不贊成這個妨害司法的一個公正所以我們非常反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3547.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3574.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好 所以我們一句話總結就是不管是這種事後的再製啦自己說是示範那或者是我們剛剛說的網路直播確實如部長所說的會給所有在場的人非常非常大的壓力可以說是一種妨礙司法公正所以我們當然也不贊成但是我認為從這個議題延伸拉回我們之前在談直播這件事情我認為我們要一起關注 好不好好 謝謝部長 部長請回那接下來有請角政署我們還是回到今天的主題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3577.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3602.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好 署長這張簡報你應該還記得喔禮拜一的時候我們其實就有跟署長您討論過那我們現在把相關的議題聚焦在所謂的青少年不管是少角校或者是少關所那往下看我想相關新聞我就不再贅述你一定非常的清楚那我們從監察院的報告其實監察院從110到114都有相關的糾正而且糾正的內容其實非常的明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3603.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3608.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
但是我要再次強調相關明確的問題不見得有明確跟簡單快速易答的解決方法但是我認為我們務實的面對問題才有機會讓接下來要接任矯正署署長這個位子的新到的署長他有機會去想新的可能性會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3622.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3642.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
第一個那一天署長你自己有提到所謂的外部監督而且你自己也提了這個監察院的報告我不知道後來在監察院的報告出爐之後矯正署這邊積極地做了哪些少角效或是少關所的改進尤其是針對這個同儕之間的霸凌案件或是不當管教的部分比較具體的行為針對監察院的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3648.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3668.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
跟委員報告我們有關少角校的部分我們有特別制定這個霸凌的一個規則而且我們這個已經有韓班四所矯正學校他會在6月1號生效這個是今年的6月1號嗎對今年的所以已經生效了對6月1號好 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3670.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3689.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那少關所呢?少關所因為孩子們進來的時間很長或短?少關所因為他進來的時間大概一到兩個禮拜頂多是四個禮拜他進出很平緩啦可是如果有學生之間這種衝突的霸凌或者是管理員對於學生的這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3691.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3708.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
也會參考其他欺凌事件來做處理包括他一進來我們都會先導說不能以強凌弱就欺新如果有被欺負的一定要按報告燈我們的場社主管一定會馬上處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3710.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3729.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
好那你剛剛說6月1號已經上路在四所角校的霸凌防制準則之類的事情我們之後再來討論因為才剛上路沒有多久可是到底在現場實施的狀況我們也不是很確定可是我們回過頭來看現在由法務部這邊提供給我們一些資料我們來看一下對一下我們從資料解讀上對不對第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3731.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3749.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
少角校學生的收容數從110到111213那1213呢就增加了22%為什麼我特別框出來之前還沒有去考察少角校的時候因為透過一些心理師社工師還有一些老師其實私下有讓我們知道說疑似啦他們聽說 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3751.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3770.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有可能是因為戈井案之後好像邵士廷的法官比較容易用比較快的方法把孩子送進繳銷因為如同剛剛阿川委員說的有一些在路上的孩子在社區裡面的孩子可能令人擔心或者是沒有人可以接住他們所以可能法官就做出這個判定但是我們都只是聽到這種說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3771.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3799.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
可是我們自己都有一點懷疑這個說法所以我們就做了一些功課來跟署長討論一下下一張我們跟你們要了資料這都是法務部的統計我們看從一一四年四月底為止這四所繳銷裡面收了詐欺罪傷害罪竊盜罪的孩子大概就佔了百分之五十五也就是說我現在在這個比例上前五名的比例我其實不是那麼確定所謂割情案之後孩子比較容易被送進去這個推論 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3800.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3817.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
用這個表格來看我其實連不大起來署長你可不可以幫我解釋一下報告委員一般青少年他有一個特徵第一比較衝動第二比較容易被煽動或是失利比較不周所以有一些可能他會淪為車手之類他認為這個錢好賺 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3822.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3845.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以這個炸雞罪就是如我們第一名他們很衝動講義氣所以常常會嚇得小聽所以就很容易會有一些打架鬥毆的情況所以在社會應該是這樣在我們裡面他們也會有這種情形我們盡量來防止所以打架鬥毆會被歸為傷害罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3848.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3870.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
打架跟鬥毆當然如果他對方有提出告訴的話就會做傷害罪所以剛剛那個推論是有可能是真的嗎就是很多老師跟社工師跟心理師第一時間的體感是好像戈井案之後回到剛剛那個數據前一頁112到113增加的人數變很多而且比例增加了22% |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3872.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3889.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
報告委員這個部分我們尊重法官的裁定因為法官他會通盤去考量原則上我們現在授事法是以行政先行為指導原則盡量不要裁到我們刑事機構但是法官可能有他的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3889.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3915.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
為什麼把這兩個合起來講如果學生人數接近收容上限後續很多在教校裡面的問題就會是您很辛苦的業務了來怎麼看來下一張當學生人數變多我們就回過來看教師人數有沒有辦法隨之提高員額看起來應該是有困難我們現在在四所教校裡面看到正式人數正式教師的人數跟代理教師的人數你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3916.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3943.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
端品的代理教師是百分之三十八城鎮是百分之十五 立志是百分之二十一他可能是受到源而法的限制也可能是因為應聘正式教師有困難也可能是因為其他的原因我現在並不清楚但是光看數字我這邊要跟矯正署確認一下到底矯正署這四所角效的代理教師源而受不受國教署那個相關法規的規定要壓在百分之八以內還是少 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3944.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3968.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
哨角校不用接受這個百分之八規定報告委員我們還是要國教署的相關規定我們還是要遵守跟委員報告就是說這些代理教室的比例我們都會應用到實際可以他發揮他的專長的地方因為我們是可以通用的包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3969.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3992.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
專科的教師輔導的教師特教的老師他是可以留用的所以我們不會因為說這個代理教師這個關係影響到班級的經營跟運作所以你的意思是說可能有一些心理師或社工師他被聘進來的時候是用代理教師的名義所以這個代理教師比例看起來才會這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3992.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4019.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
新設人員不是用代理教師來聘用的就是我們有規定我們一個班級是25位學生比如說要有一個老師但是我們相關的人數會變化所以變化的話我們要有一些彈性可是如果我認同要保有彈性這個我絕對認同其實就算是一般的國民學校我們都還是認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4021.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4044.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
每一個區域的限制需要保有所謂代理教師8%這個彈性可是如果按照少角校這個比例看起來我們其實真的有一點擔心會不會偏高而代理教師偏高可能會造成一些現場的困境一個是孩子們適應老師的狀況還有就是老師對於學校的理解還有就是老師所實行的課程可不可以真的累積 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4045.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4063.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
並且發生效應在小孩身上這是代理教師的部分我們再來看下一張如果再把代理教師是怎麼聘進來這個一樣是跟你們索取的資料我們來看如果是第一次就考進來的是有相關證照的在四所學校看起來數字都還不錯到了第二階段呢就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4063.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4082.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
沒有有合理沒有合格教師證的但是經過徵試他曾經有休閉之前教育學分的這個一樣可以考進來當代理教師到了第三階段都沒有人來考只要有大學畢業就可以來考我們看到其實四所學校都還是有相關的只有大學畢業的老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4083.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4104.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那我们先不问他们原本各自毕业的科系他们当然有可能是有些专业科系只是他没有去修教育学程可是我们要问的是因为少角色的孩子他的特殊性真的比较高我们如何确保不管是一聘二聘三聘的代理教师他们真的有能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4105.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4113.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有專業有認知在協助這些孩子上而不是只是因為他有大學畢業他就來紹角校當代理教師我們如何確保這些老師的狀態跟能力跟專業報告委員我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4120.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4139.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
聘這個代理教師如果是經過第三次的招考第三招我們才會換官他的一些資格但是他還是要有符合教師的一些任用條件那我們三招的代理教師的這個比例據數據顯示是在8%以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4145.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4163.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
署長你還是沒有回答到我的問題不過沒關係我們可以之後再討論因為時間有限也就是我其實要讓署長知道從師資層面切入我們依然擔心哨角上的老師負擔太大或者是孩子們可以被照顧的時間跟比例不夠我其實是希望想要一起跟署長您來討論如何解決現場的困境再來下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4167.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4192.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
現在像這邊提到 端品 城鎮 荔枝 明陽有各自的臨床心理師 諮商心理師 社會工作室這些應該都是國教署給的相關資源對不對是 我們國教署之前也有支援我們那今年年底他還有支援我們新社人員有四位目前我們四所教校新社人員是三十位總共加起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4192.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4215.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
可是我們要問的是就學輔法三級輔導機制的分層來看少角校的孩子應該都是屬於第二級跟第三級的狀態那我們要如何確保這些新設人員真的都有能力並且有足夠的工作時間跟量能去cover這些二三級需求的小孩一樣我其實還是看到可能的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4216.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4233.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
是 報告委員我們除了這個二三級剛委員提的之外我們的一級輔導也很重要他是所謂的比較發展性的一個輔導所以我們有班級經營這個班級裡面他有比如教導員還有導師輔導老師來組成一個班級的團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4239.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4261.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那有必要他會再轉介到我們的心理師社工員甚至以特教老師來做團體的一個協助基本上剛剛署長你講的三級輔導機制的邏輯是對的只是我還是擔心因為這個人力比人數比他從代理教室一路看過來到新社老師其實面對少角校的學生尤其是我剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4261.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4276.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
康開始就說學生收容的人數越來越多接近上限的情況下我們認為有沒有機會你們跟國教署積極的討論增加新設的人員這個部分好主席站起來我最後再問一個這個我們後續再討論關於課程孩子們的學歷表現我們去考察的時候後來我們回來索取了資料我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4283.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4295.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
孩子們在國文的表現因為這些孩子可能都是15歲啊17、8歲可是如果看他們在主要學科的表現國文程度當他落在考出來落在小學階段的成績佔了60%英文佔了86%數學佔了97% |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4301.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4321.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
也就是這些青少年的學歷基本上都只有國小程度居多那我當然知道是他們原本的原生家庭原生社區跟原來的學校他們就已經被漏接了那當然我也知道這些孩子可能其實有很多少腳下的老師也告訴我們這些孩子可能本來就有特教的特質 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4322.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4337.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
只是在原來的學校沒有被發現在原來的家庭沒有被發現所以他在原來的學校原來的家庭學習學術科目成績就不夠好再進到教校再加上他原來的犯罪的事宜其實還是變成一個非常複雜的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4339.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4363.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這也就是我剛剛署長討論的如果我們真的認為新設的老師不夠我們真的認為課程專業老師不夠我們在人力上真的有很多很多很需要國教署甚至是衛福部給予支持我認為署長我要拜託您可不可以把它盤點出來讓國教署也好讓衛福部也好知道其實少角校現在真的很需要各方的協助跨部會的幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4364.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4388.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
跟委員報告我們明年初我們會針對新社人員提出一個事辦成果的一個報告向行政院來爭取把我們的新社人員納入正式的編制剛剛我們會跟國教署再來做溝通是不是新社人力的部分還可以做怎麼樣的一個增強我們也要謝謝國教署 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4389.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4411.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好 我很開心聽到這個部分然後最後一part就是這個少教校的課程我們看到有播放弟子規啦 播放教化影片啦生命重塑跟民性生活而且這個是routine的一直做這樣的事情當然我知道孩子進來的時間或長或短所以好像這樣的課程可以比較快速操作但是這樣的課程在少關所那個階段真的可以幫忙到孩子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4412.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4432.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我想時間有限我們可以之後再來討論但是我是針對你們的報告跟我們之前在追蹤的一些資料跟矯正署長您討論我們看到這麼多矯正的孩子他們從課程師資還有輔導的部分很需要我們大家一起努力好不好謝謝委員謝謝署長 謝謝主席署長下個月就農退了好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4436.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4437.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長麻煩部長 鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4465.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4487.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們沒有教書法 是法務部的正部長對啊 是的不是教育部的正部長不過今天這個很高規格兩位部長是三位部長還包括跨委員會我很少看到跨委員會有兩位部長來這個很有影響力很有實質影響力的教委因為這個少年 這個我們很重視很好 我們都關心 謝謝好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4488.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4513.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
布朗早委員早我從教育文化領域到司法法治委員會我是抱持著非常高度的熱誠學習因為我認為司法法治委員會就是要重建國人對於司法公正的很重要的場域也就是我們要進行司法改革但是這一屆立法院的司法委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4514.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4541.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
有律師有檢察官有法學博士照理說應當是可以專業討論法律制度司法制度的專業問政場域但是這一屆的司法法治委員會卻成了卻成了沒有捍衛司法尊嚴反而是踐踏司法尊嚴的第一現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4544.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4571.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這一屆的司法法治委員會沒有用實質的解方來從事更進步的司法改革反而成了大型迫害司法的現場我非常遺憾喔我沒有當律師但是有基本的法律常識的人都知道面對司法不要惡意的去操弄它 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4573.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4596.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這個會期因為有連署罷免的這件事情以至於非常多在野黨的委員多次的在質詢的場域裡頭為難您就個案的部分對於檢調在查查偽造連署的事件對你們做出非常多不公允的攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4598.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4625.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
直到前幾天北檢起訴了而這個起訴書的內容呈現在國人面前讓我們看到整個國民黨上上下下集團式的犯罪的一個鐵證如山因為涉案的當事人已經認罪包括昨天有兩位涉案的當事人坦誠不諱 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4626.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4634.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以有人作為整個抄襲連署的主謀首腦還在甩鍋說是司法迫害 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4635.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4662.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有的立法委員站在這裡說憑什麼去針對中山大同區的書記來進行查查是司法迫害結果起訴書完整的呈現這位被立委在這裡要護航包庇的那一位中山大同區黨部的這位幹部事實上就明確的涉入了整個衛造連署的事實相關人 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4663.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4677.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以說我要再次很誠懇也很痛心的說一個泱泱國會第一大黨到目前為止被起訴的五位都是國民黨人 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4679.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4699.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
國民黨人還在衝北檢衝北院啊國民黨欠整個社會兩個道歉第一個道歉是為整個為造民主為造民意盜用公民意志的行為要向人民道歉這是政治的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4700.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4719.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
第二個在面對不斷的來迫害司法的這些立法委員的作為市長主席帶著去沖北檢北院的作為國民黨也應當為鬥臭司法用政治干預司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4720.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4727.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
而向人民道歉 向社會道歉我認為國民黨欠社會兩個道歉鄭部長您是法務部的大家長您對於這段時間針對這個個案我們一再說尊重檢調檢調辦案的核心是證據而不是政治我們說破了嘴在野黨的委員依舊在這裡對您大聲撻伐 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4745.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4760.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
只要是查國民黨人就是不對我給您短短的時間我認為您應當為這樣一個政黨迫害了司法的公正我覺得要給我們辛苦辦案的專業獨立辦案的人員一個公道 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4763.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4792.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
謝謝委員那我想那個辦案就是要講究證據有證據當然就辦到哪裡絕對不分黨派凡涉及到犯罪勿往勿中該辦就辦藍綠都要辦那這部分這個事實上我們就被辦的這些的案件我想有各黨派的都有嘛都有那我想我們都是秉持客觀公正的一個執法不管在偵查中審判中我想司法人員都是秉持這樣一個客觀公正執法的一個態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4792.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4814.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
再去做處理 勿往勿終 如果犯罪嫌疑 我們要釐清 要查個清楚該犯的公道 該法辦的 該繩之以法就繩之以法我們支持司法獨立公正的拜案我們也是非常反對就是用任何的形式來干涉司法 妨礙司法公正不要用政治力來妨礙司法公正了下一個 更離譜的是黃國昌委員創了國會的惡例 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4818.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4843.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
政客以假亂爭我非常支持法務部昨天嚴正表態的新聞稿對就是對不對就是不對一個政治工作者還是學法律的用這種魚目混珠真假不明的一個英黨在國會殿堂來操作他要的政治目的我認為就是國會比惡更惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4848.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4867.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
下一页他至少违反了法院组织法至少违反了个人资料保护法甚至也违反了刑法的未造变造文书罪至少有涉及违反这三个罪如果他是剪辑变造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4869.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4887.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
或者是他是真的拿到所謂的真訊應當那就更要去查查怎麼流出的所以部長您當天已經清楚的說沒有示範帶這個事情你當場就制止委員不應當播放這樣子真假未明的資訊嘛 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4888.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4895.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這部分我有 如果是真實的不應該要提出 因為這個會取得真實的一個錄音檔的這個只有在辯護人 當然有的話只有法官檢查可以看得到嘛那另外就是一個辯護人 那個是訴訟法第1刑事訴訟法第33條有這樣的規定 辯護人在審判中得檢閱卷中 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4910.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4919.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
超入、重置或攝影嘛而且這個要成為必須要正當目的的使用這個裡面也講說這個要行使防禦權如果說超越使用的話因為這也是入侵檔案這也是個人資料保護法第二條第一項的個人資料入侵資料是個人資料受到個人資料保護法的一個保護要使用的話非公務機構使用要合乎第19條第20條的規定而且第5條還要使用的話還要用誠實信用的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4938.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4943.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
去做處理而且要第一條就這還要在保障人民的一個一個人格權 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4944.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4951.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以這個我們認為這非常不妥適的如果涉及到違變照的話這個還有還有那個違照文書違照用如果說那個用AI的深層合層的甚至只好還有那個變照違照220條的那個那個準文書罪的一個問題那這個律師的話可能還有如果萬一是律師要受到懲戒還有受到懲戒的一個問題所以我一直在勸說這個不要播放那個主席也一直講也一直認為說這個徵訊的的觀點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4972.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4995.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
不適合在這裡播放的如果是拿真正的偵查光碟或是陰檔出來他當然違反了刑法個人資料保護法還有剛剛我們講的法院組織法你剛剛講刑事訴訟法都有違反的法規非常多但如果是惡意的仿作或AI生成以假亂徵就是一個立法委員拿著假訊息在這裡惡整官員在這裡亂帶風向 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5000.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5020.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
這是完全沒有政治道德與政治誠信的這比王玉成前立委的腳尾犯事件更腳尾犯啊但是王玉成當年腳尾犯事件他至少事後懇切的致歉他也付出了他的政治代價但是這位黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5021.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5045.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
不道歉 還持續用他的社群直播持續的在做非常多繼續鬥臭司法的行為比王玉成更可惡就是黃國昌蔥跟蒜很容易分辨嘛蔥不要裝蒜蔥就是蔥 蒜就是蒜 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5048.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5062.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
真就是真 假就是假拿這種榆木混珠的作為站上質詢台我要送16個字為這件事情做出註解 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5063.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5090.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
知法玩法鬥臭司法以假亂爭來迫害司法這就是黃國昌的政治目的而這也是我們在司法法治委員會一再反對的不要拿政治來干預司法不要拿政治來鬥臭司法不要拿政治來迫害司法但是比王玉成更王玉成的黃國昌委員顯然實隨之謂 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5093.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5114.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以我支持剛剛王議長委員有向您提出來的質詢該調查該查辦我都支持跟尊重任何有不當的流出該受懲戒的當事人就受懲戒有涉及違法的人就要受到法辦這就是司法這就是國家的法治好 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5114.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5132.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
辛苦你了這段時間不斷的被某位立委一再的惡整一再的用這種非常藐視官員的態度來為難您我覺得部長您真的辛苦但我們為了司法真正的公正我們要挺住好 下一頁我很快的點出今天主題的幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5134.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5157.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
問題你們帶回去做處理第一個今天的主題是把4.7萬人次的青少年犯罪作為報告的主題但是我要證明一下青少年不等於少年青少年是青年跟少年的組成如果依少事法的規定部長少事法的規定少年是12到17歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5160.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5182.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以如果要精確的符合今天的報告 少年犯罪有到4.7萬人嗎如果以少年犯罪的主題 我們依著檢討我們校角學校的這些機制 那我要具體的呈現從2020到2024的少年犯罪跟嫌疑人數 大概都持平在1萬上下 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5183.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5212.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
甚至在少年的暴力犯罪重刑犯罪刑事犯罪像暴力犯罪他是從104人降到56人刑事案件維持300多人換言之我認為不要危言聳聽我們也要肯定我們這麼多年投入的少年角質我們這麼多年投入的整個革新跟辛苦的執法人員是讓我們在整個少年的犯罪的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5213.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5237.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
趨於減緩但是在犯罪人口率提升是因為母數少子化的關係所以在統計上我認為要精確當然我們要持續努力減少少年犯罪但是我是認為就今天的報告主題用4.7萬人的犯罪刑案涉案數來說是少年犯罪我認為這要導正他我的數字應該是正確的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5241.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5269.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這部分的數據這是警政署提供的好沒問題好下一頁我很快的提出幾個提醒喔少府會的功能不彰2019修正了少事法2023年縣市政府完成少府會的改制但是到目前為止警政署對於少府會我認為本身警政署並不那麼信任少府會因為直接移送少年法庭的案件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5270.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5287.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
兩萬三幾乎是透過少年輔導先行的五倍以上我今天時間不夠我就先點問題我希望下一次我們有充分的時間再來討論所以少府會的功能不彰警政部門的合作似乎不夠那麼的明確我們要檢討下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5289.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5312.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
第二個 少年矯智學校的管理書師監察院一直提出報告三個要點 要建立外部監督機制要為矯正人員減壓 建立矯正人員的支持體系以及要盡速制定少年矯正學校處遇實施條例讓法務部跟教育部能夠明確分工我認為這個部分就如今為所 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5313.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5322.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
調查的你們還沒有做到我們下一次再來持續的論述抱歉因為時間到了好沒關係那最後讓署長說一下因為您要重退了 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5324.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5348.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個部分的努力報告委員您提到的哨角校的主義條例我們已經在今年的三月報警行政院現在在審核當中好那希望就是您離開這個崗位最後一個可以來滿足我們共同催生倡議恆久的制度我們一起來努力完成它好嗎好因為我後面還有幾月我希望未來還有時間就交於大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5348.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5374.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
辛苦大家了 司法法治委員會是捍衛司法尊嚴的場域而不是鬥臭司法的大型現場不要再用政治力來干預司法知法萬法 魚目混珠的這種政客的行為我們要嚴正的譴責跟駁斥 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我們接下來請黃國昌委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5383.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5402.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好 謝謝 那個因為召委要質詢 所以由我現在先代理主席的位置我們下一位質詢的委員有請吳宗憲委員好 那個質詢開始前我先簡單的說明一下那個今天的題目啦因為剛剛有委員說是委員總締我跳一下那個警政署的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5404.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5421.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個2024年這個為什麼是4.7我想說這個我不是委員聳聽啦因為這是數據上面他就是青少年把它加在一起就是那個橙色的部分是少年那那個右邊那是什麼是藍色藍色對那兩個加起來右邊合計是4.7好所以OK好對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5426.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5443.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那當然我們謝謝那個吳委員的指教那我想說我們這個題目沒有委員聳聽啦因為這個數據是警政署他有一個合計所以我們今天的題目是青少年不是說少年是4.7萬我這邊就那個會議議程因為剛剛吳委員有問到那我就在這邊簡單說明一下好 謝謝那我們請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5450.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5464.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
法務部長還有警政署署長還有副秘來 麻煩有請司法院副秘署長法務部部長以及警政署的署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5466.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5495.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好 謝謝我想說今天這個少年輔導矯正這個為什麼今天有這麼多部長級的人都來我想是大家都很重視這個議題啦那這個議題其實我覺得已經是少子化高齡化再來青少年犯罪這個都是國安的問題因為青少年他們將來進入社會之後那他們會不會在少年時期他對於這個社會的一些對他的影響然後造成他們對於價值觀等等的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5496.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5510.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那個錯誤會不會導致將來他成年之後對社會會有重大影響所以我想到這麼多部長都有過來也是很感謝各位部長我想我們這幾年我們看到的一個狀況就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5512.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5532.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
青少年他的犯罪的比例其實一直在增加所以我們看到一個數字來看其實12到17歲的少年在這五年其實他是一直往上衝的他的成長率是增加然後我們今天又看到警政署的報告再加上我們其實少子化的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5535.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5548.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
發生的件數跟我們的分母整個比起來的話其實數字是很驚人的增加我這樣子來算了一下大概犯罪其實是高達增加率是高達兩成所以我剛剛是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5549.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5572.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
除了案件數之外我們還有一個少子化所導致的分母其實是減少所以這樣比較起來其實他的犯罪率他是在往上升的而且青少年他們最常涉犯的案件大概就是兩個一個是詐欺然後另外一個是妨害秩序那我看到這幾年的這個報告看起來其實很多青少年他會被利用去當作車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5573.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5587.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那車手的話我們就知道他整個詐欺行為他是最底下最底層的那個行為者而且是最容易被抓到的等於是這些人他擔負的是詐欺集團裡面最危險的工作但是也是獲利最低的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5588.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5608.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那我記得我以前在處理案件的時候這些人他們有時候分到的大概只有他們詐騙到金額的可能是1%或2%這麼低那也是九成以上的錢其實是擔任風險不高的人他們都分走所以這些小朋友他們做最危險的工作領最少的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5610.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5636.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是他這個犯罪的記錄啊其實雖然說他成年之後他不會顯示在前科表上但是其實大家也都知道從院檢的系統還是看得到他過往在那個青少年時候的一些資料那現在少年變成免洗塊所以我最近又看到一篇那個桃園地檢署那個陳嘉義檢察官他有投書全國律師的一篇文章其實他就點出了我們目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5637.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5660.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我們目前我們想要走向這個行政先行的概念之下他可能會產生一些狀況我想行政輔導先行在現行的偵查上面會有幾個問題我就引用這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章的內容他第一個他會造成偵查主體的割裂所以偵查一個現在的犯罪他不會就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5661.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5689.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
成年人跟未成年人他們壁壘分明他不會這樣他通常是混成一團所以到最後變成成年人的犯罪偵查是由檢察官由司法偵查有檢察官去處理但是呢少年犯如果以行政先行的概念變成是由少年法庭所以將變成一個犯罪是有兩個不同的指揮系統在指揮更何況法官因為他的那個職業訓練他對於偵查的理解性可能沒那麼高那 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5692.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5714.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
兩雙頭馬車之後他可能造成偵查秘密的外洩還有偵查不同調甚至就是說他沒有一概的去判斷案子的全貌的話他可能造成要羈押等等的狀況也比較不容易但是呢如果只要有一個人沒有押那可能就會把整個犯罪偵查的東西都流出去我想這個各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5715 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5732.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
都是第一線司法實務的在座都是檢察官法官跟警察所以都很了解我剛剛提到的這個問題所以我們現在要去思考就是說這幾年運作下來這個行政先行的這個東西到底在實務上面運作有沒有發生很大的問題會不會反而對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5733.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5747.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
犯罪的偵查我們要去把它一鍋把它端掉把它處理掉不要讓這個犯罪集團繼續存在變成是我們為了保護小朋友就讓這個犯罪集團完全無法再追查下去繼續壯大繼續收新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5750.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5770.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
小朋友進來我的意思就是說我們以前的偵查模式是會溯源把整個集團瓦解掉但是現在的狀況要行政先行的話變成未成年人交給法院然後成年人有檢察官那這樣子的狀況會變成是查緝偵查犯罪團體的時候你很難向上去溯源 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5770.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5799.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那這樣變成是小朋友像免洗筷一樣這批小朋友被抓了抓進去然後去送輔導了那犯罪團體繼續去吸收新的小朋友進來那反而行政先行沒有解決掉現在犯罪新少年犯罪的問題他反而讓被害的人越來越多這是那個我看了這個陳嘉義檢察官他的文章之後然後再講我自己以前處理案件的概念我覺得這會有一個小問題那我會同時給各位參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5800.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5825.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
就是希望說大家也能夠思考一下包括教育部或是衛福部這邊也能夠思考一下會有這個問題那再來還有一個問題是少府會的功能還是有限因為少府會它目前它的組織層級很低然後它可能是站在各個縣市政府或者是警察機關而且它是被動的開案還有一個很重要的點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5827.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5847.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這次警政署報告有提到它是缺乏約束力我是特別要感謝警政署署長因為我覺得這次的報告是我看過非常棒的一份報告那我也很希望說其他部會也能參考一下警政署這次提出來的報告因為看過以後我真的覺得警政署這報告非常的完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5848.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5861.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那我今天會提這個專報呢其實我一個很重要的點是我剛提到我個人覺得青少年犯罪還是已經到我覺得這是國家安全的問題了啦因為他是未來整個社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5864.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5880.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
問題都會從他年輕的時候他的態度的偏差之後然後長大之後會影響到這個社會尤其是我剛有提到的詐欺是現在青少年犯罪的很嚴重的一環所以這個都會影響到社會那另外我自己念書的時候我念那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5882.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5905.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那公共衛生的領域嘛那我們那時候有念到社會流行病學裡面有一個致病社會的致病因子那社會的致病因子其實它來源是非常多包括這個社會給小朋友啊家庭給小朋友或教育給小朋友把累積到最後就是讓這個人偏差了所以我想到各位為什麼今天來那麼多部會也是要跟各位報告從社會流行 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5906.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5930.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
並學的角度去看其實各個部會所管轄的東西對於小朋友的發展我覺得那個都有很重要的關聯性雖然說我覺得行政院有提一個在今年2月的時候他有一個就是找史哲政委還有陳時中政委有用一個跨部會的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5931.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5960.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那個會議喔 希望說就這個改善兒少的這個環境但是喔 也是蠻特別的啦 就是說啊不是知道史德要去當高鐵的董事長 為什麼又突然還叫他去領導這個齁那這個是我覺得行政院這個用人應該是很早就布局好怎麼還會讓他來負責一個這麼重大的一件事情喔 這個我現在還是想不通啦所以我在前面提那麼多 我主要就是說第一個我想點 告訴各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5961.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5989.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
這青少年的問題這是跨好幾個部會的問題不是單一個部會而且從社會流行病學的角度去看它的影響本來就是跟現在目前在座各個部長有關那第二個就是我是希望說在一個月一個月內能夠請司法院法務部教育部衛福部還有警政署能夠再送一份報告給我但是這份報告我是希望說大家能夠參考彼此今天提出來的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5990.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6011.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好不好因為我今天看完各位的資料之後我發現各個部會所講出來的東西彼此之間有道理但是沒有橫向的聯繫所以我剛才提到說因為我看完警政我覺得警政署的資料最完整那麻煩其他的部會能夠參考一下然後給我一份資料因為我接下來我也是想要就這個青少年犯罪的部分行政先行到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6012.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6027.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
是不是一個解決問題的方式還是反而製造更多問題我想要去從修法的角度去解決這個問題或是政策上面我能夠提供一些建議我想解決這個才能夠紓解末端 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6028.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6053.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
末端成年犯的問題啦所以我想說這個在我個人覺得是很重要那而且我之前在蔡新祥部長的時代我也都有跟他就這個部分有一直跟他去提啦他要怎麼樣去做犯罪的少年犯的源頭打擊讓這些人犯罪者黑幫不要進到校園這也是我目前我一直很重視希望處理的一個面向啦我一直 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6054.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6077.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
上禮拜立法院有去 城鎮中學有去參訪有去考察 我們發現其實私生筆和借戶筆其實是有很嚴重的失衡這部分麻煩法務部長也能夠注意一下城鎮中學的那個部分最後我想請教法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6078.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6093.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
因為跨部會我們剛剛提到的就是鄭麗君副院長跟石澤政委陳時中政委他們在二月的時候開的那個跨部會的會議到現在我想請問一下過了四個月了法務部有沒有什麼具體的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6095.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6108.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
這部分這個跨部會的這一次的一個會議我是不是請我們那個我們那個這樣就說明一下就是這個會議跨部會議之後你們的作為是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6111.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6130.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這個跨部會這部分最主要是一個承受共犯的一個分工那我們法務部因為不是少年的一個在一個查緝犯罪我們法務部沒有角色而且少年事件處罰是不准我們檢察官去介入的所以我們現在可以努力的就是少角學校那一部分以及就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6131.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6157.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那個那個宣導的那一部分嘛那這部分我們會跟那個各部會就那個預防的這個一個少年方案這我們會跟內政部跟其他部會來做一個合作欸不是啦這個但我就沒有聽到那個答案啦因為因為不是啦 法務部是處理成年犯沒有錯啊但是我剛剛一直講到現在是成年犯跟未成年犯他們沒辦法割裂嘛他們現在都是一個一個包裹在一起犯罪團體都是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6157.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6176.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以保護部不能說 當然這邊因為那個成年部分 當然滿18歲這邊的成年的這部分 那我們這個因為他所以要涉及詐欺等這些的話 最主要是詐欺啦那這邊我們會做一個重點的一個查緝的一個項目 那會依據而全法裡面的來做一個加重的一個求刑不能這樣啦 保護部這樣 我想要時間的關係我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6180.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6199.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
不期待說在現在問出東西但至少可以在一個月內回給我的資料裡面能夠包含到就是二月開完這個會到現在這四個月那請問具體的方案是什麼那至少你要告訴我將來是跨部會是誰領軍哪一個單位執行那執行的期程是什麼怎麼執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6201.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6222.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這些東西你至少內容要給我好 那這部分我就跟委員報告事實上在三月 因為二月之後三月十四號我們有檢察長會有請各地檢署邀請少年法庭剛才我有報告來延商嘛那另外三月二十一號台高檢也拜會市法院少家庭來延商相關的議題四月七號也還請各地檢署邀請少年法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6223.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6241.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
法院司法警察機關來做一個延伤嘛那5月15號韓府行政院就有關少年簽納資料的需求項目我們做一個延伤來一個解決那這個詳細的是不是我就書面報告來給我跟你講喔就是說不要用言議中來回答我就好因為像上次那個黃國昌委員說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6244.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6252.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
他說他最怕的就是聽到演繹 因為演繹等於不做但我自己在呃 擔任局長的時候 我自己底下的那個同仁 我對 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6254.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6283.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我對長官說的演繹兩個字就是我們已經積極在做我的演繹永遠不是說不做的意思但到這邊常常演繹就是不做的最後我想說也是要請那個部長請教部長一個就是說我還是因為部長昨天有發一個新聞稿嘛結果新聞稿說因為我跟你講齁這兩天 昨天我們辦公室就接到很多那個民眾打來電話來說檢案官開零態度不佳這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6285.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6309.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
因為我有看到那個新聞稿有說部長說有一再的要求是不是我們這個本來就是有要求而且這個開庭態度的問題是列入年度的檢查的一個事項那上一次發文要求大家要依據刑事訴訟法98條出於懇切態度上一次發文請全國警察官注意這件事是多久以前的事這回去我再提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6311.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6336.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
因為你寫一載耶 你那個新聞稿寫一載部長有看過新聞稿嗎你說什麼時候的話我會去再做因為一道中文的理解就是反覆的要求嘛而且這個因為這也列入那個年度的一個業務檢查的一個項目嘛業務檢查的項目那我想這個我們都是評論所以到底有還是沒有這個我們會把相關的資料再提供給委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6337.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6358.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
另外我要講一個就是說 因為剛剛有很多委員有提出質疑還有我自己也一直質疑 因為剛剛部長有跟其他委員一來一往在那邊講甚至還講到違照文書 違照電池紀錄 侵害個資那當然 我到現在我還是沒有辦法理解因為禮拜一是我當主席 那我說真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6359.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6375.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
現場我本來也是覺得奇怪這個東西能夠播放嗎但是後來黃委員當場有說這個不是啊那如果播放一個不是的他已經在現場說他不是回家才偷偷說他現場說這個不是開庭的錄音了那為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6377.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6399.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
為什麼部長剛剛的回覆還一直可以講到偽造文書然後還有人講偽造電子紀錄所以我想這樣啦我非常的期待法務部能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員跟委員報告要不要給我這個所謂那個本來這個我們黃委員的他那時候這個我有整理出來喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6400.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6426.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個意思是要播放這個要播放給我聽喔什麼叫入貿什麼叫恐嚇喔他就用個案的這部分來講我一直很反對我說不要千萬不要我忘記了最後播完後播完之後才跟我講這是示範帶他有說是針對哪一個案子嗎因為我現在一下忘了我記憶力不太好這個已經就講了朱將軍等等這個我一聽就知道是哪個個案了嘛為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6427.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6435.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個聽起來就是個案了 這個是個案了所以你也說這個不適合在播放嘛部長我有講一件事情喔部長你不要亂帶風向喔我沒有帶風向喔部長等一下如果今天黃國昌委員當場是播放證訊的內容的話我一定會制止阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6453.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6465.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
但是他那時候有聽說 不能這樣好了啦 部長我覺得啦 部長 我跟你說齁這個是這個錄音的 錄音檔這個來源不明真為莫辯嘛這個真的有嚴重誤導這個視聽那黃委員到後來才講說這是屬於那個那個那個什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6468.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6497.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
市判代 市判代是不是真的再來造假 再來來檢驗那個因為剛剛王毅川委員有告發我們可以再去告發你來做一個鑑定嘛我跟你講部長我問東你答西啦我沒有問東你回答西喔部長這樣好不好因為王毅川委員剛剛有告發那個我們的黃委員了嘛那我就希望趕快拜讀到起訴書到底是涉犯哪一個條文因為我說真的這兩天我想破頭我實在是不知道是涉犯什麼條文啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6497.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6501.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我真的想不出來 然後我剛剛也仔細看了一下立法院的執行法24 等一下 部長 部長我剛剛看了一下立法院執行法24條 執行法24條它有關質詢的提出啊 它也沒有說不行這樣啊那所以我一直搞不懂 所以我很希望 嚴辦黃國昌委員那我很希望拜讀起訴書的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6518.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6544.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
到底涉犯什麼條文 黃委員怎麼會有這個袋子如果說是這種這個袋子 只有檢察官法官才能聽得到另外就是一個被捕律師才有去按照刑事法第33條他可以提出來去做一個COPY CATEGORY這也是刑事刑事防衛權你剛剛講那30秒的前提是如果他當天放的是開庭的東西的話才會有你說的這些後面的法律效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6544.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6554.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那我想說 所以我們新聞稿有發表這個是來源不明 真偽莫辯 沒關係啦部長你這些論述絕對可以剪短影音出去講但是喔 我跟你說啦部長我永遠在這裡講的一句話就是說話沒關係 你要做聲光效果那給全國人民看我沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6565.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6588.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
但是不要忘了我們國家有非常多法律專業的人他們懂我們在講什麼部長你要玩聲光效果那是你的事情你可以接受幾個小時的證訊可以做一個惡意的剪接嗎我想這個檢察官不能夠這樣做我跟你講你在講的東西我還是聽不懂你在講什麼本案跟剪接什麼關係本案跟剪接什麼關係剛剛還有人講是變照 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6593.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6609.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
變照開庭的那個哪裡有變照我搞不清楚當事人已經講了說這個東西不是開庭的嘛那你一定要對號入座說他是哪一個案子然後又要對號入座說這個是開庭錄音的剪接 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6609.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6618.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
然後我就跟你說啦 我現在沒有意見了啦部長 部長好啦 部長我跟你講 我問東尼達西正你在做什麼 我不是看不懂啦我腦子不是那麼不清楚 部長這樣好不好我就說了 我們就按照剛剛王一川委員的告發那就請貴部能夠督導檢察官能夠嚴辦黃國昌委員因為我很想看看這個起訴書到底是涉犯哪個條因為我的腦子一直想不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6640.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6643.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
聽不懂到底這個有哪裡構成犯罪 好不好那謝謝部長 再請部長嚴辦好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6664.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6693.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
沒有啦 犯罪就嚴辦這是我的立場好 那我們下一位請黃國昌委員發言好 謝謝主席那因為前面有一堆民進黨的立委當庭告發我說要嚴辦我那我覺得你嚴辦是我說的啦沒有關係嚴辦不是他們講的那我想我也不太適合今天自己可能成為個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6695.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6719.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
在民進黨口中所謂的犯罪嫌疑人的同時請部長來回答我個人成為犯罪嫌疑人相關的犯罪事實所以我想我前面就先表明一些立場以正視聽因為我如果不講什麼話的話好像以為前面那幾個民進黨立委站在這邊胡言亂語 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6722.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6749.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
破壞台灣的法治精神啊而且呢不僅是破壞台灣的法治精神啊更是雙標自己啊我為什麼說雙標自己啊我上一次質詢的時候啊我就問我們的法務部部長啊2012年追緝二檢的事情今天台灣還有沒有發生從召委所接到的那些電話就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6751.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6775.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這是個現在進行式當初為了追緝二檢的時候涉及到民進黨政治人物的貪污案不是播示範帶喔是播實際的硬訊光碟實際的硬訊光碟那時候的民進黨啊就群起鼓手叫好 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6777.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6806.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
司法就是要這樣被監督二檢就是該被追緝當年的民進黨不僅沒有說違反法院組織法違反個人資料保護法還是全面站起來鼓掌叫好全部站起來鼓掌叫好奇怪了今天的民進黨拿到權力了以後完全變了嘴臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6807.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6837.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
至於說我放了示範帶偽造文書啊 我必須要說啊這大概是台灣法學的第一大發現啊我鼓勵啊檢察官馬上啟動偵辦啊我準備拜讀啊你們的起訴處分書或不起訴處分書啊我黃國昌為了對抗二勢力啊又不是第一天被告到目前為止啊到目前為止啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6838.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6855.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
民進黨對我發動的誣告勝訴率是零啊上一個去台北地檢署前面告我的就許智傑啊他說 約會的時候不投票跑去找民進黨大佬無乃人吃香喝辣所以我講的不是事實只有許智傑去台北地檢署才按完零才按完零照片都出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6869.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6884.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我算是這個人啊財新人厚我還沒有去追加告發他誣告明明知道我講的是真的還跑去台北地檢署按鈴告我丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊沒有關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6887.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6906.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我最後只講一件事我希望民進黨不用忘了以前追緝二減的理想好好跟台灣人民解釋為什麼我民進黨在野的時候涉及到民進黨政治人物的徵訊光碟全部都公開啊後來在行政院當政務委員的羅秉成 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6912.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6933.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
還直接寫專文 出席記者會公開徵訊光碟有何不可如果民進黨今天早上發言的那幾位立委沒有受過基本的法律訓練的話我是建議可以去拜讀一下你們前政務委員羅秉成律師的文章 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6934.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6947.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好這個是前面啦程序上面因為我不要我自己的事情請官員上來嘛這樣不好我們現在就切入要質詢的政體來有請我們的法務部部長麻煩鄭部長請鄭署署長署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6961.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6982.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
可以了嗎可以了齁可以 好 來第一個啊王逸川啊之前用基地台訊號比對個人身份啊有沒有違反各執法通保法我知道部長的高度啦在這邊不會針對個案表示意見啦這個事情有沒有人告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6984.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7006.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個已經有告發 這個在北檢在偵辦當中所以既然已經偵辦了 好 沒有關係那我們就持續偵辦下去我關心的是什麼 這是聯合報這麼大的篇幅 五月詐騙財損上升騙走國人將近九十億我們來看一下 今年二月有降下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7008.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7035.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
2月3月4月5月詐騙的案件數財產受損的金額不斷的上升這是國人關心的問題詐騙的被害人這麼多我們就非常的好奇我們政府打詐的具體的作為積極的打詐成效如何所以我在瀏覽我們相關打詐作為的時候來我看到的這一張照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7036.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7054.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
部長跟北檢的檢察長跑去扣案精品拍賣會啊擺拍作秀啊這個照片啊拍得還蠻好看的宣示打詐的決心部長知不知道你去的這個拍賣會他拍賣的精品是哪一個案件這個是一個假投資的一個詐騙案受損金額多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7062.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7088.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
受損金額的話 這部分我沒有統計奇怪 他們找你參加這麼重要的活動背景都沒有說明喔還是只要負責去拍照就好了這部分我想去做一個做什麼 去拍照這個已經新聞稿已經寫得很清楚啦對對對 所以我才問你嘛你有沒有真的關心這個案子嘛你有沒有關心打詐嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7090.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7109.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
還是只會負責去拍照作秀嘛 這個是我的問題嘛這個就是一個贊同 就是因為這件就是一個宣誓 這些罰款的不罰所得非常好 宣誓不罰所得所以我才問你嘛 這個案件 被詐欺的金額有多高你知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7114.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7132.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這部分我回去再查30億不用查啦 Google一下就有啊全台灣人都知道了啦50億啊50億啊被詐騙的金額50億啊就幾十億嘛偵辦的過程我都掳列出來啦查扣了不罰所得有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7134.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7161.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
法務部的所得就是這名牌包還有一些的虛擬貨幣那這部分因為個案這部分我沒辦法去記那麼詳細不會啦 都已經起訴啦對 起訴 但是我想這是一個態度的問題我要講的重點是什麼這個就是你們法務部放出來的新聞來 部長看一下張款買精品LV香奈兒拍賣不罰所得追回10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7163.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7185.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個是真新聞還是假訊息這就是一個統計的數字 成果的一個標準我跟副長報告回去看一下起訴書這個案子已經甄決起訴了起訴書上面寫得很清楚真正的兩千一百萬沒有十億 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7186.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7204.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
沒有10億怎麼會沒有10億呢沒有10億你要不要跟我打賭有沒有10億我就直接跟你講沒有10億這個拍賣本來就是彰顯我們就是要是是是所以你拍賣賣了10億嗎所以你查扣了多少不乏所得我回到我最原始的問題嘛剛剛部長說怎麼會沒有10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7207.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7222.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
所以你認為有10億?拍賣者拍賣的金額這個不是彰顯就是說所以有拍賣10億喔?這是我們就是查扣的這些的不法所得所以有賣10億嗎?當然不可能說賣10億因為我們查扣的那麼多嘛所以你剛剛為什麼說怎麼沒有10億?這個怎麼會沒有10億呢?沒有10億啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7226.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7251.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我現在就跟你講沒有實益所以我才拿出來質詢嘛如果有實益然後我現在還在問說怎麼會有實益那我這質詢不是沒意義嗎我清楚的跟你講啦我跟你講你說的實益怎麼沒有實際上的一些的效益呢怎麼會沒有呢你追回實益來看一下你查扣了不乏所得有實益你到現在還在拗喔我沒有在拗你是你自己沒有關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7253.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7277.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
你不用想要把你的話塞到我的嘴巴我怎麼問的你怎麼答的所有的公民透過公開透明的直播大家都可以回去看好好的核對看我剛剛問的問題跟你回答的問題到底是誰在胡扯我直接跟你講重點我直接跟你講重點啦第一個這個案子我們的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7281.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7294.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
破大案了以後 浩大喜功拍照很會真的有關心被害人嗎真的有關心犯罪查緝的結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7295.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7305.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
然後放消息給媒體不好意思喔 現在是我講話的時間召委 請你可以制止他嗎部長 部長 部長然後源頭的行政的一個管理現在是連召委在指揮會議部長都不管了嗎這個是司法法制委員會的規矩嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7317.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7343.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
趙偉剛剛我問問題我也給他回答現在我要誠懇的跟他講我觀察到的現象怎麼部長急成像熱鍋上的螞蟻不斷的插嘴啊可以讓我把話講完嗎這是我的質詢時間麻煩部長尊重一下委員法務部要事後開記者會發新聞稿我都沒意見啊我為什麼拿這個案子出來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7344.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7362.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
浩大喜功 拍照 擺拍 打詐有成效結果勒 放給媒體 說追回十億我跟部長講兩件重要的資訊第一個 根本沒有十億連一億都沒有 連一億都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7365.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7391.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
如果我講錯我拜託已經貞節起訴的台北地檢署檢察官今天馬上發新聞稿駁斥我我絕對不會掌握錯誤的因為你知道嗎早在你們在處理這個案子以前這個案子我幫了多少忙我只是沒有公開講第二個第二個讓我覺得很詫異的事情是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7393.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7418.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
奇怪在這個案子裡面是有查到黑道是有查到黑道怎麼查到黑道的時候像拒見法一樣那個部分就沒有了今天我也是公開提供情資啊公開提供情資啊給我們偵辦犯罪的檢察官理解來看一下這個是祖賢羅佩文的照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7421.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7449.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這是祖先羅佩文的照片這張照片檢察官有沒有我不知道但這張照片是出現在什麼地方出現他跟鄭純俊以及其他黑道分子在聚會的場所這是現場照我黃國昌講話向來有憑有據這就是他們跟黑道分子混在一起的現場照在查金流的時候奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7450.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7472.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
怎麼沒有去進一步追查黑道的金流這件事情我今天在這邊公開提供情資給台北地檢署的檢察官做參考這個案件不就辦了嗎辦的成果就豐碩啊所以嘛就按照你講的叫豐碩嗎現在我問的是黑道的部分有沒有辦黑道的部分有沒有辦你怎麼知道都沒有辦這個我想北檢辦案團隊 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7480.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7509.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
說你都不是很瞭解現在又裝得好像說 有啦我們黑道的部分有在辦 沒關係啊我拭目以待啊看你們辦什麼東西出來啊黃委員今天的意見 我們寶貴的意見我們會轉給那個幫你做訪問好了下一個問題 我上一次質詢的時候我直接檢舉法務部調查局的調查官拿密錄器去操商偷拍未成年子女女孩子的裙底 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7511.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7528.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
然後我說你們有沒有處理那次備詢的時候跟我說沒有處理來現在處理的狀況如何這個調查局在做一個一個一個他們考機會你作為調查局上面的大家長法務部部長你認為這應該有什麼懲處這個什麼懲處這要開會是是是作為部長啦以對調查員 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7537.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7553.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
的標準你認為一個調查員去偷拍未成年子女的群體應該受到什麼樣的處分這個就依法 依法該怎麼處理嘛全部講空話就依法處理嘛你有沒有部長基本的態度你認為應該受到什麼處分我就是依法處理嘛依法來該怎麼做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7557.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7584.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
該行政處理的 行政處理 行政懲處嘛 該送應該要送什麼樣的行政懲處那如果說在 如果該有涉及行政 那就依法 依法偵辦嘛應該要做什麼行政懲處這部分我沒辦法跟你講 這是有要尊重調查局考機會的一個決定嘛是 所以你沒有態度 沒有立場嘛為什麼沒有態度 沒有立場 我現在講就是有態度啦 我要尊重而且我認為的態度就是說 這個這個此風不可漲這個我有一些的 此風不可漲嘛對啊 這個該做的 要不要嚴懲 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7585.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7611.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個該嚴懲就是由調查局他們作為作者的機會嘛你不用急啦因為我看你回答問題的態度跟內容你顯然搞不清楚狀況我現在直接啊我現在就直接告訴你我質詢的Point現在我就直接跟你講我質詢的Point嘛每一個案子我只要把它拉到檯面上面來我一定做後續追蹤啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7612.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7640.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
最後的調查局考紀會給他的懲處一大過一大過現在還在原職這個結果出來了以後我去問非常多調查局基層的同仁我接下來講的是基層同仁的心聲大家都覺得出了這種令人髮指的事情記一大過目前還在原單位繼續任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7642.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7669.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
沒有任何的調子現在是要告訴台灣人民什麼我們給我們這麼敬重的調查官我們的標準是這樣這個是民進黨政府的性平觀念一大過還在原單位 動都沒動我問了一堆人你們可以接受嗎沒有人可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7670.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7698.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
大家都覺得讓調查局蒙城丟臉那天調查局局長派人來回覆我追的問題的時候我已經清楚的告訴調查局如果你們是這樣子輕輕放下的話會讓人對調查局的標準完全沒辦法苟同也會讓大家對於民進黨政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7699.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7726.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所謂的性平價值產生嚴重的懷疑再下一個上一次我說連政署可以洩露吹哨者的身份嗎搞了半天來請警政署署長委員好你知道最後的處分是什麼嗎寄了身件你覺得這個是在彰顯民進黨政府保護吹哨者的價值嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7728.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7752.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
洩露吹哨者的紛紛 記憶之深切不痛不癢委員 這個就是在處理的過程當中有的懲罰單位的文書上的疏失文書上的疏失 問題是什麼原單位的人不就知道是誰投訴嗎跟委員報告一下就是說這個陳情的狀況我們就是有回覆陳情影的一個結果是這個結果我們沒有是由誰回覆的是由處理單位的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7757.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7783.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是處理他的單位嘛以後我們有精進的空間啦這是未來我們這樣叫有精進的空間我請教一下署長你知不知道我們已經三讀通過吹哨者保護法還沒有開始施行嘛那你知不知道依照吹哨者保護法洩漏吹哨人的身份要科譽什麼處罰有一些是有刑事責任的那我就直接放給你看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7784.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7805.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
現在是還沒有執行啦 是還沒有執行以前 民進黨政府一直說我們很重視吹哨者的保護啊法案還沒過 我們現在就在做啦做得很認真啦這個叫做得很認真喔蛤 洩露吹哨者的身份 太可惡了深切一次這個叫保護吹哨者署長你自己可以接受嗎我們會再做精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7815.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7842.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
要怎麼進去我們現在已經對於這個法的還是說下一次再發生的時候大家就有樣學樣嘛在機關內部我們不是要求平等原則公平原則嗎為什麼他洩露一枝深切你要重懲我到底在哪裡我看不下去啦我會在這邊公開質詢就是我看不下去啦包括那個調查員的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7843.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7870.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
包括這個洩漏吹哨者身份的案子我敢在這邊公開質詢把我的標準講得很清楚我也要接受公民的檢驗嘛如果一般的台灣人民說黃國昌講話沒道理洩漏吹哨者的身份一隻身鑒很嚴重了要不然你還要怎麼樣那當然是我理虧嘛但是我不認為如此啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7871.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7893.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
洩露吹哨者的身份一隻生戒這是在開玩笑這叫做保護吹哨者署長你聽得下去喔你認為這是警政署保護吹哨者的態度嗎還是以後跟警政署前舉的大家小心喔你的身份被洩露按照警政署的標準就是一隻生戒就了事了是這樣嗎 署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7895.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7911.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
黃委員這個是沒有要洩漏他的這個意思這個是他處理文書的一個現實上面不就洩漏了你讓處理他的單位回覆他那處理他的單位不就知道他是誰這不是洩漏什麼是洩漏我有說錯嗎署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7914.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7931.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
未來我們處理的這個方式應該是不會做這樣的一個處理這個案子之前就說不會啦阿發生了以後怎麼辦 機械之深界在搞笑喔在搞笑喔OK好謝謝 那我們下一位請審發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7938.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7955.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我們現在順便做會議宣告我們待會在莊瑞雄委員詢問完畢之後休息五分鐘主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7958.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7980.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這個我直接知道一般我是很不喜歡在這邊談今天主席所設定的議題以外的話不過很抱歉我剛才在黃國昌委員在質詢的時候實在是不禁這個嘴角失守這個不太禮貌這個其實大家所提的就是一個很簡單的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7981.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8008.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
在這裡昨天黃國昌委員在本委員會公開播放的那個音檔到底是不是徵訊的音檔他就回答這個就好了講那麼多扯那麼多是如果是徵訊音檔那我們就要問你如何取得徵訊音檔的你在這邊公開播放徵訊音檔適當嗎如果不是那我們就要問這不就是腳尾犯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8010.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8021.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
如果不是證據運檔 那你是自行製作的你是怎麼製作 用AI製作還是什麼 你是把這個講清楚就好 到底昨天播放的是不是證據運檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8022.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8045.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
你黃國昌講的義正嚴實在這裡講這些話你就回答大家對整個社會對你的質問你就回答啊你最愛講的所有台灣人民都看得很清楚啊所有台灣人民都在問啊問說黃國昌委員你昨天所公布的你在這邊公開播放的到底是不是徵訊應當你就回答這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8049.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8058.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
口口聲聲說民進黨以前怎麼樣 現在怎麼樣你現在去全台灣做民調 所有台灣人民都知道立場改變最多的人是誰不就是你黃國昌委員嗎抱歉啦 花了時間在那邊講這個題外話 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8071.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8093.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我今天很希望設定這個主題鎖定主題先等一下因為這個主題剛才我們召委也有做解釋但是我實在是因為這個主題今天所設的包山包海說實在包山包海所以才會讓這麼多的部長次長大家全部各部會全部都來 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8095.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8107.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
一開始我就看青少年這個處刑案,青少年不是法律用語,法律用語就是少年事件處理法,有青年基本法,但是它沒有青少年這個定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8109.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8130.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以這個讓我在資料調閱上面產生蠻大的困擾啦包括這邊所說的達4.7萬餘人剛才主席有修一個表但是我不曉得那個數字來源就是你所謂的少年跟非少年非少年是到幾歲為止作為非少年的犯罪到4.7萬我是做一個詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8137.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8152.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
因為你這個題目你這個也沒有辦法聚焦現行少年輔導少年輔導這個是司法院矯正署教育部衛福部你這個有關於這個矯正效能,矯正效能是這個矯正署校園霸凌這個就是教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8153.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8182.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
高關懷學生這個是教育部跟小政署安置輔導這個又是小政署保護管束這個又是司法院報告委員這個就是問題點了因為它散在各個部會所以你剛剛說的就是問題點我是覺得說如果能夠聚焦我們今天的主題就在於有關於高關懷學生的安置輔導那這很清楚我們就可以深入討論因為我這個真的是沒有辦法我會覺得說沒有辦法深入討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8183.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8206.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我現在就剩下我趕快因為這個還有很多勞動部教育部齁這個都都這個職能訓練啦這些全部都包山包海齁實在很難聚焦那現在我就一開始我就先聚焦在我剛剛所講的是不是應該是這個青少有關於青少年刑案嫌疑人現在唯一有在統計的應該是警政署啦齁是不是請警政署長麻煩署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8213.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8235.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
委員好署長這個關於我們今天主題青少年刑案嫌疑人於2024年創歷史新高歷年新高達4.7萬餘人這個4.7萬餘人這個統計數字你能不能說明一下因為這個是你們在統計你能不能說明一下這個應該是青少年涵蓋到涵蓋少年的18歲以下的這個統計數字到哪裡到幾歲未滿18歲未滿18歲的未滿18歲的沒有到4.7萬人所以4.7萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8241.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8266.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
未滿18歲就到4.7萬人 未滿18歲那少年的部分大概 這是少年嗎不是啦 少年的部分5年來大概差不多是1萬1千人左右對啊 1萬1千人 1萬1千人嘛 未滿18歲那我看你們啦齁 你們有的這個我從你們內政部 從你們警政署的查詢往下去查詢齁110年到114年4月的刑案嫌犯人數齁你們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8268.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8269.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
有一個統計是12到17歲,有一個統計是18到23歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8275.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8294.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那這個到今年的這個這個2025目前有看到的數字到1到4月啦那其實看這些數字喔確實我是說這個統計數字一方面青少年這個這個這個定義是大家可能不太知道怎麼去定義什麼叫青少年青少年應該是未滿18歲18歲這樣 少年世界圈應該是在12到17 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8300.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8319.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
12到17 青少年未滿18歲基本上未滿18歲所以照青少年的這個定義啦不管怎麼樣定義但是事實上主席有說的這個事實上犯罪人口增加這個是事實啦最近大概就是增加的部分大概集中在 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8320.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8348.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
詐欺 詐欺犯罪詐欺的倍數剛剛那個趙偉爾提就是大概兩倍兩倍比方像113年大概有三千人左右的這個少年的詐欺詐欺犯罪這個齁 少年的詐欺詐欺犯罪詐欺犯罪裡面又集中在車手車手 車手跟車手大概集中大概有六成到七成都在車手跟車手對 車手 我這邊的統計數字差不多佔了佔了六成啦大概佔了六成左右對 佔了六成啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8349.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8373.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那這個 這是因為這個青少年他們事實上這些少年 他們要開戶困難所以他們要去當搜捕 要去當其他的角色都困難就是去當收錢 或者是提款 或滅交這種角色所以他們車手的比例會這麼高啦因為他開戶也困難 所以他沒有辦法他要擔任其他的角色 他也有困難他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8375.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8397.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
擔負的刑者也比較低了所以剛剛也有提到就是成少犯一起他會喜歡會招募這些少年來從事這樣的詐欺犯罪事實上我們從這樣子看這個少年犯罪在詐欺案件變成主要的原因這個跟過去傳統我們所謂非刑少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8398.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8418.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
又不太相同那個形態真的是不一樣這個處遇也完全不一樣了啦所以這個部分我們現在有做什麼樣的這個因應這樣子少年處罰這樣子的類型現在比例這麼高我們有什麼樣的在處理這些少年事件上面有什麼樣的因應策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8419.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8439.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那我想就是因為剛剛這個委員有提到就是牽涉到這個部會非常的多他也提到說成少犯的這個整個處意的狀況不同少年有少年法庭那成年犯成年犯是在這個法務部的這個檢察官這個地方的這個偵辦所以未來看看怎麼樣去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8440.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8462.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
整合啦看法律上看怎麼去做整合那站在警署的立場上現在的這個對於少年犯是在112年7月就是對於少年身體罰通過之後一個行政先行的一個機制會由這個少五會來做這樣的一個輔導的這種機制在做處理又有相關部會那署長請回我現在是不是應該請這個矯正署 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8466.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8478.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不好意思署長,在你容退之前,我們本委員會麻煩你這麼多次來,有些問題還是要跟這個矯正署之間來溝通警政署長可以回座啦,可以回座剛剛我跟警政署之間的溝通接下來這個階段,我們進入了這個討論少年矯正 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8492.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8516.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
學校的這個問題 少年角色學校事實上現在有關這個我看這個歷年的統計數字從2021年到今年2025年4月底的這個統計數字這個裡面的這些我們受感化教育的學生裡面詐欺罪已經到了將近三成了對不對 將近三成 我看統計數字是28.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8520.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8537.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
28.5%所以這個跟過去我們過去過去事實上這個受感冒教育學生過去最多的是暴力犯罪那現在整個形態基本上是已經改變了已經有三成就是詐欺就是車手這樣子的這個這樣子的單位車手他們針對他們他們的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8547.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8563.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這些受感化教育學生他們的角色從車手他們剛有講人頭帳戶比較困難你到了三角炸蜥的這個部分他們更難擔任這個角色所以基本上都是車手啦那這些車手最大問題是受感化教育之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8565.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8587.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
他們這個第一個他一定是一個組織化犯罪裡面他絕對不是自己一個人說我去車手我自己去拿錢那一定就是一個組織犯罪裡面的一個角色啦齁所以這個一定是往這個組織犯罪的方向進展組織化啦那再來因為車手這個角色讓他們債犯的比例基本上有沒有很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8588.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8595.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就是說我今天今天受完這些感化教育之後我出去我再去當車手繼續再做再犯律 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8597.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8616.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
報告委員 針對少角校的學生出校以後除非他有再進來我們少角校我們才能夠得知所以你們就是知道他出去就不管了不是說不管 我們有後追一年 包括說他出去以後以你們後追一年的範圍裡面 災犯率高不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8620.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8641.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們沒有統計再犯例但是我們會統計他的就業比例、就學比例、就醫比例、就養比例還有所謂失聯的比例也有但是如果針對失聯的部分我們會轉介給衛福部來針對在後面我時間到了但是其實我講的還不到我想問東西的一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8642.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8665.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
因為包括我們現在這個剛剛大家都講這些專輔的人力現在的人數規劃你們到底你們有提到說你們專輔人數不足你們有一個計畫要做這個心理社工專輔人力人員元額增補的計畫但是你們到底這個114年預計增加多少人你們進度怎麼樣人數規劃怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8669.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8684.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個不好意思署長因為時間的關係這請你提一個書面報告好不好請你再提一個書面報告你們計劃的這個內容你們預計增補的人力那你們會分配到哪幾所學校這樣做一個書面報告給我好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8686.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8715.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
可以 這一句話就是我們專府人力是從81名會補充到315名那如果是指的是新設人力我們明年初會提事辦成果的一個計畫然後再想暴行政業那目前你們他們這個出來之後你們基本上你們還做你們做兩件工作一個是轉弦復學一個是這個就業轉弦對不對你們有做這兩個工作會會那我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8716.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8733.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我看這個有關就業轉嫌的部分你們的報告寫說你們服務了3489人次那是人次 實際上是46人次我現在就問這個 結果你們所謂真正有轉介的是46個人比例是非常非常低 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8735.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8764.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那因為他就學比較高就學應該是70幾位但是你們進行的人次你們轉嫌這個就業轉嫌服務你們服務了3489人但是真正有轉介的因為他的年紀他還不到當兵但是可能就學的年紀會再轉嫌比較多一點這個部分是不是也請你們提出一個書面報告有關這個轉嫌就學的這個事件比例偏低的部分好不好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8765.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8793.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那我本來還有有關這個少年行政輔導先行的部分我想可能時間來不及了我們下次有機會再來討論以上謝謝委員好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言請法務部衛福部警政署法務部衛福部警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8801.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8824.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
根據衛福部的報告指出2024年青少年刑事嫌疑人高達4.7萬創下歷年的新高這顯示我國青少年犯罪問題日益嚴峻我想請問我們三個機關的首長代表今年狀況有改善嗎 法務部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8826.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8853.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
有關你少年的這部分的一個犯罪我們沒辦法檢換沒辦法去做介入啦那所以有改善嗎這部分我們去做校園的一個宣導那有沒有改善我這邊沒有統計是不是做這樣的一個分析請衛福部有改善嗎包委員我們現在在社安網還有一些相關的一些措施我們都有持續的一些精進的措施謝謝來請警政署有改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8854.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8874.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們的部分大概就是這個境況大概就是少年的一個詐欺犯罪增高那警政署除了在宣導之外以及這個對於這個有關的這個少年輔導不僅少年的這個先行的工作我們也積極在做推動當中好那我把數字告訴大家了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8875.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8887.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
兒童嫌疑犯因為配合少年事件處理法修正所以不納入統計那如果是以少年嫌疑犯12歲到18歲來說謹慎署的統計去年1到4月是3109人 沒錯吧今年同期是4860人 沒錯吧成長1.56倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8898.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8920.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那18到23歲的嫌疑犯去年1到4月是9208人 沒錯吧那今年同期是17106人 成長1.86倍我可以很明確跟法務部 衛福部 然後跟警政署 還有所有行政官員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8921.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8949.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
照這種數字的趨勢今年青少年的犯罪恐怕又會創下新高這是我們覺得非常憂心的事情那我還要必須提醒現在其實你要知道人數不斷飆升但是你有沒有相對一件事我們現在是重度少子化的社會所以青少年的總人數是比過去要少沒錯吧但是呢嫌疑犯去創下新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8950.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8978.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們青少年的總人數在下降而今天嫌疑犯人數卻往上增那已經不是這所謂1.56倍或者是所謂的1.86倍因為你算上人口的那個變化我真的是用觸目驚心來形容這非常可怕的事情那這次包括衛福部、法務部各個行政機關其實我覺得你們都沒有談到這件事情這事情真的非常非常嚴重那我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8981.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8992.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
現在少年跟青年犯罪人口率知道嗎過去十年我們的青少年犯罪人口率成長多少知道嗎我們先請署長好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8996.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9018.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
有關這個少年犯的部分大概剛剛委員所提的就是這個倍數的這個增加那至於青年就是少年跟成年人分這個是成少共犯的這個狀況那這個部分應該是在增加當中都在增加我把數字給你講給大家聽大家來看看他嚴重性 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9019.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9031.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
如果是從馬政府的2015年到蔡賴政府的2024年每10萬人的少年12到18歲的犯罪人口率是從673.32人增加到947.17人 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9037.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9064.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
增加高達四成我剛還在講喔青少年人口是往下掉的喔那每十萬人的青年18到23歲的犯罪人口率是從1517.92人增加到2400.06人增加60%一樣我還要再強調一下青少年的人口的總數是在下降當中所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9065.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9093.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這真的是一個我覺得大家都要不能夠已經不能夠裝作沒看見的一個數字了我們的青少年是國家的未來如果今天你單單連犯罪這件事情青少年的這個比例都增加了如此之快那想請問我們要怎麼樣去保護我們未來的國家的未來的棟樑我們怎麼樣去面對我們台灣我們的未來的國家的未來中華民國的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9093.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9121.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以這是我覺得今天我們在討論這個題目我覺得幾個首長一定要放在心上的事情那面對青少年犯罪危機社會安全網破裂這是台灣未來重大的警訊我剛剛也聽了行政機關都說了很多都說做了很多可是實際上我也不知道為什麼做了那麼多也說了那麼多就是不斷的我們的青少年犯罪不斷的飆升 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9122.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9148.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那到底是政策出問題執行力有問題還是說今天是什麼樣的問題我不知道請問部長你覺得怎麼去看待這個問題啊謝謝委員因為少年事件處理法不是法務部的主管法規而且裡面明文規定說我們檢查室不能介入少年事件的一個偵辦所以我們完全沒有著力點所以我們著力點是在哪裡就是少年的宣導部分已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9149.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9175.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
他已經判了那個譬如說矯正學校裡面我們的職長分部是在這個區塊至於那個查緝面的那個是這個不是檢討沒辦法法律是禁止我們去參與的這部分的一個政策部長我要跟你說問的不是查緝面不問是一個整體面因為當然啦你說是不歸你們這邊管可是整體的犯罪結構的一個所謂的一個連動的影響治安的部分終究還是法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9176.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9201.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
重要的一個我再謝謝委員的一個指導那這部分行政在114年2月20號有跨院部的延伸少年院處理法或成少共犯最主要是成少共犯的這部分的移送的一個問題那我們有一些的測試就剛才那個主席也有問過了那這部分我們有各地檢署去邀請少年法院司法檢察機關來延伸那有去拜會 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9202.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9218.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那有些的一些就少年前科的需求的一個事項因為前科這邊沒辦法去做一個少年這個算算出來對前科這邊有做一些的特別的一個規定所以相關的這邊我們都希望少年不要成為詐團的利用的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9219.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9236.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
主要詐欺的猖獗是關鍵因素之一很多的青少年都捲進去這些詐欺的一些犯罪的行為鏈裡面所以我們非常重視這個校園宣導這邊我們也會跟教育部以及跟教育單位來做一個合作那個就校園的這些的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9239.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9255.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
這當然不是法務部一個部的事啦實際上這已經是 幾乎是國安危機了掏空我們下一代的未來那你也知道青少年犯罪的機制那因素很多啊那政府機關目前看起來我覺得有點感覺是各自為政 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9256.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9270.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那如果沒有良好統籌機制的話像衛福部就有提到許多的犯罪少年背景有高度脆弱性家暴經濟弱勢私學等的問題就發現其實他不是一個單一不是犯罪是最末端沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9271.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9286.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
他其實有很多前端的因素慢慢就進到了所謂犯罪教育是一環 對不對然後我們的所有的犯罪防治是一環毒品管制是一環然後還有詐欺案件是一環統統攪在一起的時候就產生今天這個問題那最後我還是要講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9289.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9308.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我們的下一代的未來真的就在我們各位所有的首長身上了那孩子都是良身但環境未必是那青少年犯罪率大幅暴增他其實也不純粹只是治安問題跟警政問題他也包括說今天整體教育跟社會的整個環境的牽連問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9310.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9327.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個是我覺得今天我在這邊是要拜託我們的幾個部會要來正視說怎麼會讓我們的青少年面對到這麼嚴峻的一個治安的一個問題以上 謝謝那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9341.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9353.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們法務部正部長麻煩法務部正部長還有衛福部旅次長衛福部旅次長矯正署周署長周署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9358.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9373.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
其實我早上聽了這麼多委員的質詢,憑立法院這些腦袋要處理今天這個議題,那是沒有能力的青少年犯罪這樣的一個飆升,那確實是一個警訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9376.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9393.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
青少年當然是國家未來的一個棟樑啊可是這個棟樑啊如果涉及到犯罪的話又是法務部的一個職長你當然要去打擊犯罪啊所以這個問題環環相扣啊但是呢本集倒想先請教幾個問題啦早上我看大家一直連招委也 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9394.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9408.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
霍進來在問這個黃國昌委員這樣的一個質詢到底是不是有涉及到犯罪的一個問題大家聲音講得都很大聲但是我覺得這個議題是在野黨耍老千的一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9410.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9434.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
憲法第73條明文就給你規定立法委員在院內的一個言論跟表決對院外他其實是不負責任這個其實有言論免責權的問題甚至於連在野黨都已經跟你聯手了在整個會期本來是延到7月31號現在又延到8月31號按照我們憲法徵修條文第4條第8項的前段 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9437.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9457.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
立法委員除了現行犯以外,除了現行犯以外,在會期裡面沒有經過許可,你也沒有辦法去逮捕他。所以這個是一連串的,我會覺得在立法院裡面要去追究這樣的一個法律上的責任困難。 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9458.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9462.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
比登天還難啊這個我倒認為是屬於一個國會自律啊或者說個人要負政治責任的問題啦我不曉得部長你的看法怎麼樣那個的確我們這些的一個我們希望說立法委員我們都理性問政那我們觀念也 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9477.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9494.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
也來做一個回應但是如果說有這樣的一個委員所提到這情形我們是希望就是我們尊重委員的一些的寶貴意見是啦 我們都希望在國會裡面其實都可以通過一些更好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9495.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9524.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
福利民生的法案當然對行政部門那監督當然是這個本來就是一個職責嘛但是我要請教一個問題啦就是說我們現在啊在整個矯正體制裡面啊我們又設了很多監獄啊那設了很多監獄啊只要是人都會生病嘛怕沒料就要傳去看醫生嘛我想請教衛福部衛福部次長那我們現在啊現在現在我們碰到了一個問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9528.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9536.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
針對連續假期連續假期連續三天我們到我們這個不管是部立醫院或者說民間的醫療機構我們會請醫生到這個矯正機關到監獄裡面去醫生要去看病 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9544.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9558.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你連續三天連續假期三天你就開始要擺儀先起這樣的一個規定連續假三天的假年假只要有三天的話你就必須要有門診 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9560.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9573.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那你接下來會碰到一個問題喔 你教師節還有你這個雙十節 中秋節 還有春假 這都連續假期啊遇到這種時候 你還要叫人家練習 都要去門診那對醫院裡面 大家叫苦連天啊 這你們都知道嘛那這種規定來講的話 合不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9586.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9610.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
報告委員 我們剛才也知道現在目前有這個廉價嘛那我也坦誠跟委員講我們確實在醫院人力的部分確實調配上來說有問題但是我們這個部分還是特別是我們的部立醫院的部分這個是我們國家職責所在我們還是會盡全力啦然後這裡面也會包括我們現在那個加成如果說在這個時候我們現在目前在研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9610.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9635.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
有做加成的一個相關規定來讓我們的醫師能夠來符合這個需求但長期來說確實人力我們也必須要來做一個相對應的處理受刑人的人權當然要去保障這也都是對但是有時候跟實際上你造成這些醫療院所他實質上確實是人力這樣的一個短缺很嚴重的一個衝擊這個我們也必須要去正視第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9639.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9657.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
我就要來請教部長嘛 部長那些人去看病 門診去看病 或是那些堅守的人出來病院看病啊 看過你不要人家立旗 這樣才對這個有...都人家簽旗 這樣才對 來來 署長署長 這個署長你會比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9658.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9661.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
你們有人欠很多嗎?你欠到醫療院所,欠到病院就要來找我們立委說,這樣監獄來找人來看看,看看不然人家垃圾衛生部次長我剛才忘了問你,你們那個部立醫院也是被欠了一大堆錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9678.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9683.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這樣才對 人家去看病 連鎖假日三天就要派人去看病 看過就算了都很好啦 因為我相信可能是考量到如果說這些受刑人要出來還要介乎很多的麻煩嘛所以連續假期三次都要看醫生的門診嘛但是我們看病看過之後 錢要給人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9699.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9725.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
報告委員醫院會跟機關催討這些醫療費用其實這不是機關欠醫院而是因為這些受刑人去看病以後他沒有錢付沒有錢付我們要動用公益金之前我們必須要有完備的程序比如說打電話跟他的家人 兒子說你爸爸有欠這筆錢你要來繳納 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9727.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9733.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那他兒子可能會講說我的收入有限我們要問很多的相關的但問題你會碰到一個問題啦人家你們帶來啦你們帶來之後人家就要給你們看所以我們在完備程序之後其他的受刑人不會說不公平的前提下我們會召開所謂的合作社的會議然後看多少錢我們盡量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9753.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9762.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
分這個梯次來給我們的醫療院所我們也希望跟醫院能夠合作愉快我唸給你聽啦在台東有台東監獄啦綠島監獄啦有看守所啦有戒治所啦技能訓練所有太原延淪到東城啦你看馬街醫院去京都 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9776.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9781.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
泰元喔 你們泰元欠幾個人嘛欠幾個人 你們看過了嗎 你們怎麼欠少 你們100均2人欠10萬3900啦100均欠2人欠26萬1585元啦100均8人欠17萬8啦100均9年欠到6萬8 110年8萬多你就給人家欠了69萬多那你現在欠費人家在吹角的金額到現在要上百萬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9802.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9806.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
你現在跟人家說不然你去找啊你聯絡家屬醫院才有人去找你第一 壽星冷卻以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9810.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9838.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我們不是請醫院去跟家屬去追繳而是由我們機關在打電話給家屬說你們要趕快來繳這筆錢如果說問過相關他的家屬都沒辦法繳之後那我們才會開會要不要動用公益金替這個受刑人來繳納那這個要公平不然其他的受刑人他會說他為什麼有特權 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9838.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9858.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
阿我的重點是你們開了會 還是欠帳阿公益金有限啦 委員你要斷絕我們盡量能夠繳納 但是我們公益金其實有限我們公益金也要補助其他受薪人的營補費什麼不是專門提供欠費欠繳 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9860.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9864.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這樣講好了 你們這樣講完以後 保庭我是這樣記錄的 你們也知道這個情況啦那衛護部次長也在這個地方 我會認為這樣對醫院來講是比較無辜一點啦那一般的民眾我來看一看 全民健保嘛 有些是我剛才的善良人嘛政府照顧我老婆的事嘛 有些是欠少人面嘛但是呢 我們機關又扮演一個 一定的一個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9885.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9896.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
你叫我來醫生碼 跟我們政府部門簽約嘛你說連續三天假期 叫我派人去門城我就真的騙了 去都看那個人不用錢的 看那個人賴賬的這不好啦 我覺得政府應該想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9902.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9911.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
政府應該想辦法 我這個醫療院所 你說部立醫院 桃園部立醫院你也選八百萬嘛 那個政府的 那個政府左手右手怎麼挪 那還另外一件事可是你涉及到不是政府部門的你說 因為我有開會啦 我什麼都做啦 那就不繳啊 所以我也沒辦法啊人家在說企業就是 都不要跟我們合資 你不要來看 不要叫我們企 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9930.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9950.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
有沒有道理我認為要解決啦什麼論述我沒意見啦我是認為讓人家這樣一直掛在那個地方齁讓人家產生這樣的一個怨言齁這也不好啦你們都認為合作很愉快啦可是沒有收到錢的時候人家真的是不愉快啦是 我要報告委員我們不管是衛福部或是保護部其實針對受刑人啦自從102年加入二代健保之後我們都有編列這些經費齁一些經費來做一些開 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9959.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9966.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以我們並不是說想要賴賬那是受刑人欠的但是我們會公平起見去做應該完備程序之後我們再來繳納 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9981.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9997.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我知道是署長我知道是受刑人欠的啦但我的意思是說實質上經過你們這樣子開會甚至他的作業基金在監獄裡面工作的錢先把它扣掉給他是這些都該做的我的重點是最後這幾年連續這樣給人家掛在帳簽人籍不好看 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10004.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10025.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
是我們盡量來要求我們所屬機關在相關的公益金我們的合作社會議裡面盡量能夠通過用公益金來繳納這些費用因為這個我只要求一個啦 趕快啦是是金剛行調好好 正部長先請回喔我請我們警政署署長今天的議題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10028.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10038.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
其實很大的一個議題啦針對青少年這個刑案的嫌疑人這個人數一直在創高啦一直創高 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10039.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10066.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我不曉得你的感慨是什麼啦因為站在警察機關我們本來就是要打擊犯罪你也不可能說他因為青少年你犯了罪啦這一些我都給我都沒看到該做的我們還是要去做嘛那其實我只看到2023年新北那個國中生拿台灣刀去刺死隔壁的同學當然反而現在審理當中啦那像這種案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10067.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10079.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我都有一個很大的感觸就是說那個青少年他去到案以後他去自述啊他案後他自述他自己常常都有帶刀上學這樣的一個習慣那其實這個時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10083.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10097.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個時機其實就是少五分應該去介入的一個最好的一個時機可是呢我們去看我們去看就是說這幾年我們修法完以後少年事件處理法我們現在變成行政輔導先行上路了那這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10097.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10124.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那到底有沒有去落實讓暴險少年不要一開始就進入到這個整個司法的一個體系那由行政體系先去介入輔導再評估是否移送法院那我想問的就是說你們現在人力的部分結構上你當一個署長你看到這個問題地方上這樣能量到底夠不夠實際上在第一線工作各縣市的少年輔導組我給你看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10127.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10155.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
組成的一個結構裡面大部分還是我們警察機關啦我不知道你對這個看法可不可以簡單做一個回答好那這個是在112年7月開始上路就是不僅少年的行政輔導先行那現在全國的這個少府會的這個全國的這個人力大概260幾個那在113年的流動力是偏高的那這個組織裡面除了台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10156.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10185.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
看起來就是他自己市政府有補助比較健全其他各縣市政府的消費大概由這個市安網來做來做補助確實 市長 台東三個我確實就是這些人力上有一些是要又再做增加我想這個這個部分另外是因為消費的這個功能不是司法單位就是作為輔導單位我覺得有在做這一些健全的一個空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10186.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10212.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那我們這個部分因為是110年開始做施行未來可能要逐步再做檢討 再去人力他們的待遇或者是在他們的這一些的功能上再做加強因為他輔導的目前每個人開案大概是在10個左右啦每個輔導大概10個左右那目前的這個量能初步大概是這樣子那我想就是他主要的這個有三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10213.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10239.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
面向啦第一個剛剛委員所提的這個無故攜帶器無故攜帶這個器械或者是這些這個毒品沒有犯行之犯就是所謂三級毒品或者是預備犯若或者是這一些的一個未遂犯這個都是列在於我們這個不省少年這個輔導先行的這個範圍裡面所以就是你現在基層能量不夠對這個量能應該不太夠來跟下一層要怎麼做充實 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10243.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10269.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
現在就是說 曝險少年 這個不是早退現在不是說以前早退 還是我蹺課就像剛剛署長你講的 現在很多涉及到刀械 私用毒品 還有預備犯罪那你現在的少府會 你也沒有這個強制的權利啦所以你這個很麻煩 就是說針對這種高風險的個案你有明確的行政流程應變的機制跟責任分工嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10270.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10283.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
這個我還要問你以前你現在偏差的行為那個太樣太多太多啦你一個市權沒有辦法去做一個做一個你要怎麼去做一個協調比如說各地方政府裡面一大堆相關的資源單位交易局你說中促的輔導這個婦苗專案社會局還有兒少保護家房中心 園民局處還有提供部落家庭的支持衛福部 心理 警政你這個整個市權裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10300.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10320.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
處處去交錯你少五會不僅需要去協調所有單位你還有先議權所以說你現在這樣制度實行下來該道路是好好去檢討的時候對 我想說就是說這些青少年的問題有牽涉到他處罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10322.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10339.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
有牽涉他父檢少年 有牽涉他偏差行為有牽涉到忠錯的行為 都散佈在各部會所以未來就是說 現在目前的這個父檢少年 這個善良輔導先行可能牽涉他跟成年犯結合在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10340.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10369.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
兩個是又分開的所以時時到現在剛剛在這個有些委員質詢的時候我覺得就是這個部分未來有檢討的空間看怎麼要來做整合這個最麻煩在哪裡我講我的感觸給你聽就是說我們變成我們警政單位扮演的角色他其實是最重的啦他扮演的角色最重可是呢對這一些少年來講的話他對你們又是最排斥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10370.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10373.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
又是最排斥的,那所以說像這樣子的話,要安裝給少府會,還有警政機關繼續擔當這麼重要的一個角色這個缺點其實是很明確,所以重新去檢討,去選定組織機關的歸屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10391.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10408.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我認為真的要好好去討論在立法院裡面因為時間都很短本來這個議題可以好好來做討論我也不敢耽誤其他委員太過多的一個時間那剛好實行完了那這一段時間完以後整個制度沒有去檢討真的不行你把它想想看 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10409.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10427.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
在立法院的氛圍裡面只要涉及到重大犯罪的時候大家要求警政機關你們在幹什麼趕快去打擊犯罪然後碰到只要是青少年大家一看警察局你可能會講說你不叫我去打擊犯罪我打擊犯罪成果給你們啊現在出來你們在欺負我我那裡沒做到那裡沒做到那裡沒做到少府會這樣的一個本來是一個協調過程的一個平台但是卡關了啦人也不夠啦權責也都不清啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10439.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10465.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我期待應該跟衛福部大家好好跟整個教育部好好做這個制度真的是到真的不得不趕快讓一個檢討出一個新的制度否則我們會看到青少年犯罪我跟你講還會在吊聲要加油好不好好 謝謝謝委員那我們一到先前的宣告休息五分鐘五分鐘後有李月琴委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10468.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10468.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
謝謝 感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10818.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10843.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好 我們繼續開會 接下來我們請林月琴委員發言主席 因為我要有四位首長上來 我就先依序先請我們警政署的張署長好 麻煩張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10848.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10873.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我等一下後邊再麻煩我們的衛福部次長跟矯正署署長跟我們的國教署的署長我等一下後邊再麻煩大家上來那首先先 署長早因為今天這個題目事實上是很大了也感謝昭偉能夠關心司法少年的問題我想針對各個部會我都有些問題想要問希望可以獲得改善那時間不多我就直接講重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10875.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10900.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
首先邵府會的問題 我想大家都很關心剛剛前面莊瑞雄委員也在問在邵司法修正之後 行政先行的重點就是讓邵府會發揮它的功能那依據18條的規定 邵府會的輔導責任非常的大事情也很多 可是我聽到基層社工反映實務現場缺人又缺資源 又自我限縮權責導致裡外不是人以外 又不討好 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10902.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10925.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那今年相較於去年的整個開案數看起來成長不少大概有double的量那問題來了今年的專案報告跟過去你們回覆我的一樣雖然都說人力沒有不足的狀況像今天報告你們還講說現有人力事實上是充足的可是剛才雙瑞雄委員在質詢的時候你是說不足啊可是你報告是寫說人力是 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10927.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10945.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所以就不太理解就開案數事實上是兩倍那你的人力又沒有增加難道主管機關都沒有覺察到這個事實上是現場的問題嗎所以署長這部分你到底有沒有充分掌握因為你報告跟你剛剛現場在講的又不太一樣所以針對人力運用跟開案的輔導的情形是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10945.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10961.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
委員我剛才的意思就是說因為全國現在的數目是大概260幾人那現在就是每個人的開案的這個量大概10個案子左右那有的縣市政府的稍微的編制是懸殊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10962.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10982.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那大部分的部分大概目前運作上都還可以有一些就是 比方有的縣市政府大概只有幾個人而已這個部分可能要再去做調整那這個以目前全國看起來大概是台北市政府的警察局的組織監控有自己給警隊 其他的監視都用社安網的錢其他都用社安網 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10987.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11007.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
就是全國有部分市場補助大概一億左右啦 各縣市政府的消費這樣狀況那我個人覺得就是說像這一些如果說這一些這個暴險的少年是這樣的一個增加那對於消費的組織的一個人數 是不是足以去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11008.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11033.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
負荷 或者是未來這些人數的開案人數我覺得這個可以捲倒的空間預計聘任的人都已經還沒辦法完全聘任因為現在各行業都到處缺工更何況現在我說你案量增加結果你人數上也沒有去做考慮這個部分可能要到時候反請你們給我們報告因為我覺得這樣子人力不足的話基本上是沒有辦法解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11035.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11061.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那再來請我們的署長這邊有看到嗎請求支援或公案這張圖事實上是偏差行為的輔導流程裡頭大概都有很多各權責單位的接案跟轉介流程可是那個請求支援或公案合作的這文字寫起來很輕鬆可是實際執行起來我覺得是不是有各自退縮這就是我們實務場看到的現象所以我想說問一下署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11061.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11084.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
有質疑嗎 什麼叫做請求資源或公安合作 什麼叫公安合作公安合作應該就是說對於這個輔導的這個層面可能牽涉到有這個社政單位有學校單位 有少府單位 要把他們的資料去做整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11084.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11105.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那我找你你又回應我然後呢到底誰才是要主要去主責的一個單位那我想這個有一些就是看誰接的案去做聯絡人應該是做一個主責那那個人是誰好我接下來請衛福部的那個次長所以一樣同樣的我想問次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11106.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11124.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這個資源跟公安因為社工很喜歡會講公安那這公安合作實際執行那我覺得因為社安網是衛福部在主責的那也想問你們有什麼參考或指引嗎否則誰來邀請來公安那我認為你做你認為我做結果最後大家都沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11125.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11153.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
那我不知道你有沒有這樣的一個參考之意包委員我非常感謝委員對於這個部分的一個關心那其實我跟回報委員三個重點第一個就是說我們在社交網裡面其實少府會這邊主要就是那個主軸式嘛就是策略式的部分那這個部分也非常感謝警政署跟我們這邊我們是密切合作那我知道現在目前委員剛剛現在目前有說到一個就是說有一些需要公案的一些指引跟標準那我跟委員報告到底有沒有衛福部用 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11153.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11175.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
今天社安網是你們這邊因為我已經實在聽到太多民間團體在抱怨請求資源或公安合作根本就是口號為什麼要嘛就是我們的逆境社工認為自己有權無責就是有責無權 心有餘力不足要嘛就是司法系統的調保官在執行業務的時候就認為說社政社工他的法定 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11176.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11193.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
服務的時候遇到司法社工他就說這不屬於我的那就司法社工去做或者事實上是有時候我們看到就是教育單位就會瘋狂的反應說學校現場沒有輔導人力可以應對這些特殊的少年所以最後的結果就是看起來很多人做就最後呢都資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11197.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11218.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
資訊的界階不完整不及時又不對等各自輔導的功能退縮犧牲的就是少年跟家庭的權益所以這部分如果是安網事實上是衛福部主責的我剛看莊瑞雄委員也特別去提到能不能這部分麻煩我們次長這邊就衛福部能夠主責協調各部會大家好好的坐下來談因為畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11221.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11228.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個字眼上一組折多協力這也是社安網的一個概念是不是可以去討論這種分工機制最好能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11229.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11251.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
寫出來我們的參考指引有沒有辦法?我想承諾委員剛剛所說我們在整個社安網的規劃裡面確實就是一組折多協力那麼這裡面我們現在目前在我們現在也準備要進入到2.0那我在這邊有折承就是說要協調您剛剛所說的教育警政司法 社政這邊其實最重要的應該是information system |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11251.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11277.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
整個那個資訊系統然後讓他們整個相關的這一個單位他們都能夠把那個情況都能夠透過這個整個資訊系統彼此之間可以互相可以互相銜接那至於委員剛剛所說的麻煩衛福部這邊來做主導最後我想問那個矯正署長周署長這邊關於學生助理員的問題上次質詢後的書面報告有提及到會在相關會議中討論目前進度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11280.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11296.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
隨身助言這個聘用規劃我們還在評估當中還在評估當中那接下來我請彭署長那上次我在質詢的時候也跟教育部說那你們整個的評估結果是什麼教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11297.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11325.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我們會一起來協助小鎮署大概7月3號會開會用正向的角度跟他們一起合作會積極來解決 謝謝另外就是上次我們去考察的時候關護所有現場工人反映諮商輔導的空間不足僅用OA的隔間不利於輔導工作進行這不是個案因為我在前兩年看民團參訪的報告當中就已經有提到這個問題所以我想問一下周署長有沒有任何改善方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11327.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11354.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
報告委員 我知道委員很重視這個相關逆境社工的空間跟時段的問題是 這上次有質詢 也質詢過是 是 我們現在有提供輔導中心還有專設的接見窗口可以讓這些社工 甚至於他的家長來做面會那這個不會納入他的親友的接見次數 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11355.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11380.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那逆境社工我們會用公務接見來辦理那也不會佔用他的不過我覺得空間環境還是要去考量所以我們有提供輔導中心還有專用的接見窗口如果窗口之間也要做一個嚴密的隔離不要互相干擾這個部分我們都有發函給四所橋校 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11380.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11400.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
好那最後就是請警政署檢討各地的我們邵府會的人力的運用跟經費便利的執行狀況再麻煩兩周內給我那為不不我剛剛有提過就是說請你們能不能針對於一主則多協力這一塊也就是所謂公安合作到底怎麼去走那可能要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11402.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11421.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
開會然後討論之後結果給我邀其他的部會那矯正署這邊是不是針對於我剛剛提的環境尤其是輔導空間的設施還有人力的補足以上兩週內就麻煩這署長跟次長這邊能夠把相關資料給我謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11436.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11441.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好謝謝主席我先請一下警政署署長麻煩署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11449.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11473.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
最近有兩件被我們警方去移送社委法送辦事實上引起非常多討論而且事實上這兩個案子最後都被法院打回票一個是在網路上有網友說問陳菊走了嗎在網路上然後立刻就查到直接送社委法送辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11474.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11481.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
另外就是大家都知道之前這個罷團到處在設這個連署點罷免連署點那有這個民眾在這個連署點就問說我要罷免賴清德是在這裡嗎那麼就被罷團說這是滋擾那我們警方就一樣依社會法來送辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11498.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11521.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那結果送辦之後呢 法官呢 通通不罰 認為根本沒有滋擾啊所以我想請問一下 就說現在我們警方 面對現在如火如荼的這些罷免或者呢 動不動來報案 像網路上這個也是喔他只是問了一下 陳菊走了嗎 那我想請問一下 連問都不能問嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11522.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11547.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
蛤 陳菊走了嗎 問都不能問嗎然後有民眾說 我要罷免賴清德是不是在這裡啊也不能問嗎 就要用社會法去送辦怎麼樣 我們現在是戒嚴了嗎所以署長 我不曉得這兩個案子引起社會很多討論我不曉得我們現在警方的執法 它的標準在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11548.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11565.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好 包委員 那因為這個是一個個案啦 那對於這個是不是一個真實的狀況 那當然都要去做經過了解什麼叫真實不真實 我講了 法院都已經那個什麼 已經都不罰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11567.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11576.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
未來對這個部分的一個這個是不是有沒有民眾的報案啊或者是有沒有這樣一個這個情形我們會依據個案來做一個判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11581.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11586.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
所以你認為這兩個案子在執法上有沒有過當有沒有不當那這個部分應該是說就是這個依照這個證據的一個狀況有沒有過當有沒有我覺得這個是不是因為多個案的一個執行你都不敢講你都覺得OK啊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11607.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11633.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
就是因為我們警政署長這種態度所以我們精神警察就這樣的辦法我問嘛在網路上問一句陳瑜走了嗎要被社會法送辦嗎你覺得這樣子有沒有不當那這個因為是不是有沒有人告訴告發是不是一個假的訊息是不是一個散播的一個狀況那我們當然回去做了解他散播什麼是不是一個假的一個訊息他只問走了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11634.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11661.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我要講的就是說在這過程裡面真的不要讓台灣越來越像警察國家跟戒嚴國家啊好不好像這兩個案子事實上都已經是以在警方來講都是過當了嘛我們都已經講說法院都是民進黨開的但是還好啊還有一些法官是清醒的啊如果法官也跟著你們這樣胡辦瞎辦那台灣還很可怕欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11663.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11685.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
是不是他只是問這個連署站我要來罷免賴清德可不可以還要被送到社委法請我們警察能夠本於行政中立 政黨中立不要看到這些大官 看到陳菊 哇 嚇死了看到賴清德嚇死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11686.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11707.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以署長如果你們連長官的態度都是如此啊難怪會有這樣的案例我們是不希望看到這樣的案例接下來我們整個的這個罷免的過程裡面一定很多啦互相告來告去啦一定會但是我覺得你在執法上總是要有一個我們過去這已經完全違反我的經驗法則了嘛是不是來那個時間暫停一下那個署長先留一下請那個今天有 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11719.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11732.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
衛福部衛福部今天是次長是吧還有我們也請那個今天法務部也請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11739.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11760.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好 我們現在趕快來看一個影片喔那這影片呢 一邊播呢 我跟大家報告因為呢 我們現在喔 不准電子煙販賣所以在網路上呢事實上你如果去key進電子煙的時候呢那接下來它會出現這個畫面就是它沒有電子煙販賣但是它最後呢 會有一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11761.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11783.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
你這個有進一步呢 你就可以去點進去看點進去看之後呢 這裡有衛福部的一個指示就說這些呢 是被封鎖的網站 好 被封鎖的網站好 你再用這些網站呢 再去搜尋的時候呢你就會發現呢 這些網站呢 都是很輕易的可以買到電子菸 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11786.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11801.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
都可以買到電子煙反而變成了它是一個路徑就是本來就是說一般我們點進我們要在網路上去買電子煙看起來是不准它在網路上販賣但是這個路徑呢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11803.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11830.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
很多在購買電子菸的朋友呢他們事實上大家都知道用這種方式他就可以輕輕鬆鬆的進入了這些購買電子菸的網站那今天呢我們事實上是反毒大家也知道其實有很多的毒品都是藉用電子菸來做吸食這個是確實所以我想請問衛福部跟法務部這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11833.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11835.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
对不起时间暂停一下不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11849.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11874.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我想請問衛福部跟法部那麼這個電子煙的一個看起來是Google的申訴呢反而成為這個吸毒跟購買電子煙的一個指引那我想請問一下這些網站衛福部只是告訴你就是說這些呢是被你block掉的嘛被你block掉可是反而他只要進入這些網站他可以輕易的去買電子煙 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11876.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11886.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我的問題是說所以你們對這些購買電子煙的網站你們也沒有辦法也沒有辦法去取締呀或者是禁止嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11887.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11911.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
非常感謝委員來這個的質詢那我跟委員報告這個部分事實上是牽涉到這一個兩個部分第一個這個是我們電子菸當然就是有關於這一個國建署這邊那第一部分可是另外有一個部分這個部分可能會牽涉到就是有關於這一個相關的網頁你要下架這部分可能我們要跟NCC那邊我們來進行相關的協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11914.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11924.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以我們可以把這些電子煙的這些網站直接下架嗎?我看有一些是境外的有關於這個下架的部分這個可能要跟這個速發部那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11929.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11941.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
要找速發部我們要跟速發部那邊有一些如果說有一些像譬如說像兒少性剝削或等等這些那同樣的像這些部分也是一樣我請法務部部長來因為我們現在反毒反毒其實你要從源頭開始抓是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11949.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11960.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那像這樣的一個狀況我們在我們的法部剪掉的部分可以做些什麼樣的努力呢因為我們雖然台灣其實是蠻奇怪的我們政府事實上是禁止電子煙 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11965.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11993.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
可是呢 電子菸啊滿天飛四處都看得到你身旁很多人都在抽電子菸啊很多人都在抽電子菸那所以覺得很奇怪我政府一方面禁止電子菸的販售一方面反電子菸但是呢身旁人都大家人手一支電子菸我們還看到一些高官啊現在也都在抽電子菸那請問這些電子菸是哪來的那是我們防堵不力還是說我們打假球 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11995.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12018.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那部長這個部分我們可以做什麼樣的努力那個電子菸它是菸奶房子裡面的類菸瓶它的主管的機關是衛福部的國健署但是這個我們既然電子菸當作一個吸毒的載具、工具那我們這邊就源頭的關係剛剛委員第一次很專業就是我們源頭怎麼去阻斷那基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12019.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12035.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那個在我們那個台高檢我們去我們是查緝我們保護部是負責在查緝面的這源頭管理面基本是行政機關在做處理但是我們台高檢署也多次邀請了國建署、關務署、刑事局、司法部來研製如何防這問題就譬如說關務署就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12037.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12065.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
在關口的時候在那邊海關那邊就應該有叫源頭的一個攔截就是要稽查那另外那個樹花部那個國建署那部分就是要法規的一個修改像我們電子煙是不是可以持有以及那個沒入的這部分現在法規還不齊全那煙的防治法是它不准那個電子煙那個包括輸入啦販賣啦等等這些是有一些的行政的改法 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12066.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12085.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那這樣的話我們是不是在修法這邊國建署他們那邊已經有在做一些的法案的一些的提出了那另外我們電子煙的查當作一個毒品的一個載具這邊我們用校園青春方案以及安居器的專案我們全力的查緝用電子煙當作一個載具使用那個新鮮毒品所以剛才部長講電子煙是一個載具但是電子煙呢其實是很容易取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12090.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12116.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
但電子菸呢又被我們政府呢事實上是禁止禁止販售的嘛但是所以我就說它的荒謬之處就是在這樣就是說你一方面其實我們政府呢是禁止的但是另外一方面人手一資上從政府的官員到校園裡面其實很多小朋友這個學生也在抽電子菸所以你怎麼就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12116.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12126.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
不然的話我覺得這就是政府很丟臉的地方啦我一方面我在禁止但是另外一方面呢我其實又讓他變得很容易取得謝謝我們幾位那在最後一點時間我要講一下因為剛才吳思瑤委員特別提到就是我們在上次我也有問過部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12139.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12148.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那就是在整個的就是有關於這個假聯署的部分的一個搜索事實上呢檢察官有濫權的問題有濫權的問題剛才吳思耀委員說我之前有質詢過我說你今天去查吳思耀跟吳佩奕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12158.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12183.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
他的這個假聯署的問題然後呢你去搜台北市黨部裡的中山區黨部中山區這個只有一個委員就叫做王洪威我沒有被罷免然後呢剛才吳思耀委員講說這樣子就是因為我們的這個執行長呢被起訴所以呢我要跟社會大眾道歉我要講的是吳思耀委員得了便宜還賣乖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12186.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12212.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
司法手段造成他罷免不成還要讓人家道歉我再請教一下部長假聯署的部分你們就說這個跟黨員名冊高度雷同請問一下罷免吳思瑤或者罷免吳佩義的他的名冊裡面跟黨員名冊高度雷同有沒有一個是我中山區的黨員有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12214.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12221.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
因為這個個案現在在台北地檢署在三半鐘所以你沒辦法就這些來做但是我要講的檢察官的任權部分我覺得還是要提你在整個的你的搜索或者辦案過程裡面把不相干的資料整個拿走我上次就講了把中山區黨員名冊全部拿走 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12239.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12264.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
在台中市的部分 你在查 你在查所謂的假聯署結果呢 把人家的 把人家有關於他們小額捐款的資料給拿走把他的暫情的報告 就是選舉暫情的報告給拿走 合理嗎所以我要講的是 在這個過程 因為已經有起訴了昨天 其實我昨天也有去聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12265.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12275.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那但是有關於在檢察官整個搜索裡面亂權的問題我覺得這裡面不能不去正視他不是檢察官想搜什麼就搜什麼他想拿走什麼資料就拿走什麼資料這一點我本來在我們主要是放在整個的菸品的這個管制還有毒品的管制可是當無私藥委員得了偏移還賣官還有臉講要我們去道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12295.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12319.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
他憑什麼呢?難道檢察官濫權的問題不應該被重視嗎?檢察官濫權的問題可以被容忍可以接受嗎?所以這一點 這個是水令狀的檢察官要說什麼完全是依法院核發的搜索票去做執行的那如果說有一些的一些的異議那可以在法庭上做一個主張或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12319.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12342.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那個這部分就走法律上去我剛才特別講了你們在搜索裡面那個名冊裡面會不會出現中山區的黨員嘛一個都沒有然後把黨員名冊帶走你到底是什麼意思也就是說透過司法做這樣的政治追殺到這種地步世上真的司馬昭之心昭然若揭啦好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12346.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12355.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
好 謝謝 那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言那一樣我們處理會議時間上午的會議持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12377.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12396.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
請保護部鎮部長還有司法院王複密好複密委員午安我先問鎮部長剛才你叫王宏威王委員在爭執這個偵辦的事情我我追問過你好幾次了當初中選會移送檢調辦的國民黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12400.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12408.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
16件 民進黨15件民進黨現在到底國民黨這16件都大搜搜大搜押民進黨現在到底涉及這5件15件辦了幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12411.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12429.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這個中選會移送的這部分那是各地檢署就依法偵辦中可是都沒聽到喔你不清楚我法務部長只能管政策管法案管業務的推動至於那個個案的偵辦我是沒辦法去做介入的 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12430.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12439.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那這部分我想我們要尊重那個檢察機關他那個偵查計畫策略的問題那這部分我們也不要去干涉維護給檢察局一個穩定 這不是個案啦吧15個案你到現在你到底辦幾個我們是要辦兩件事 辦兩件事是不是郭民動這邊一個天一個地你有沒有覺得這個落差太大這個沒有雙標沒有讓人家覺得碰到民進黨就轉彎嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12455.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12477.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你對人民要有個交代吧 你是大家長 你應該去查一下你上次也在問 你出了15個案到底是怎樣15個案 雷利風行 搜索完人都押起來了這個是不是 葛委員可以給一個純正的報告我想你我都不可以去干涉兩個案件怎麼進行 怎麼去弄嘛這不是干涉啊 保定 你不覺得這個落差太大你一般的人品對這個會不會覺得是雙標跟碰到名字就有轉彎這個什麼叫雙標 這個我不贊同啦反正就是依照證據來扳他你落差太大了 你都要去了解一下你的司法 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12486.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12510.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
為什麼民調裡面來看一下那個民調看民調來看民調為什麼會出現政治利益政府有沒有選擇性辦案將近60%政治利益介入檢調辦案57.9%政治利益介入司法案件57.6%人民就是因為你們這樣的辦案方式嘛你要去搶救司法讓人民有信心啊好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12516.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12545.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我現在 人民現在都眼睜睜看你國民黨辦成這樣子民進黨這15個案你到底要怎麼辦要不要雙標 不要民進黨就轉彎來 我問你一個施改會啊施改會 來我們回到第一章施改會曾經列立風險啊去追過這個惡檢追緝惡檢柏廷你應該當初不是被追緝的惡檢嘛 對不對沒有在裡面 對不對沒有被檢討 沒有被追緝嘛 對不對我不談我個人的事啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12545.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12562.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
不談個人的事問題是你是大家長你有沒有包庇或者縱容二檢我不曉得這個我就是這個檢察機關在執行依法執行職務那整個一個我不曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12563.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12575.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
委內縣的二檢的定義是什麼但是我想我會嚴格要求檢察官要依照檢察官倫理守則依法律的程序以執權來依法偵辦案件嚴重違反檢察官的倫理 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12582.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12596.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
指證歷歷呢 你還在問 來 看看咧你看這三位都是民進黨司改會大將 後來做民進黨這個大官游伯祥 現在他就是大官顧立雄 當了國安會秘書長之後現在還是國防部長喔林鋒正黨產會的主委 他們都指證歷歷啊游伯祥說什麼這個二檢啊 亂錢亂數他說起訴人家死罪 都沒有證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12611.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12634.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
結果還堅持上訴到底顧立雄說什麼明明是沒有東西被偷你還用起訴他竊盜罪林鳳正怎麼說他說叫招不到就起訴了啊法律都已經改了檢察官竟然還不知道法盲無知人家指證利利嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12635.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12653.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那現在就是為什麼司法的這個滿意度這麼低有沒有去檢討有沒有去改革這個所以我剛才問你還有多少的這個惡檢你還說你不曉得定義這個就是清楚的定義啊報告這段時間為什麼有那麼多人在控訴你們典檢的檢察官不正的這個詢問這都不用查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12657.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12673.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我這裡要正式的澄清什麼叫不正的一個詢問現在看起來顧立雄跟游伯祥跟林鋒正可以做成這樣可以用那個講我不要再提他這個所以最真正的我們檢察機關跟司法機關有錄音錄影資料保管辦法各級檢察機關詢問時的錄音得隨時抽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12676.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12702.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那這部分是我們隨時抽出來列入業務檢查這個項目所以你們做了要錄影錄音嘛結果你被人家質疑是有問題的光碟你連播放都不敢播放你的北檢到底出了什麼樣的問題來我們先看一下羅秉成怎麼說來來那個你看講說那個什麼不敢播放那是真的嗎我說的是在停柏定你在停上 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12703.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12732.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
在柯文哲的庭上我們清清楚楚我們被捕的人說已經看過看見過光底他們看過光底之後發現邵秀佩被不當信問你們的林靜妍欸直接對著邵秀佩講你說以為什麼連政署那你去借這個連政署那一套就可以過關你在呼嚨我你給我試看看我沒有在呼嚨你這種問這種問法是不是像流氓我沒有在呼嚨你齁是不是像流氓在問案這不是一個不正新聞嗎這個你不要再前面再直接說什麼檢察官像流氓齁沒有這回事啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12732.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12738.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
你剛剛講的這個論法不像流氓嗎那你要自清你就要讓大家看這個你剛剛講的否定你剛才不是說你都有錄影跟錄音那為什麼不敢讓人家看你們是做賊心機有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12752.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12772.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
評鑑是一個嘛 第二個就公開對不對 在庭上我們要求公開為什麼你如果做得這樣 你的新聞沒有問題我跟你講喔 委員 做任何事情就要依法律啦不管在公佈的事不可能就要依法律啦都是要法尊啦 所以要走程序啦不是說沒有法律的依據就來這邊直接就這樣像你委員講的那種方式啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12774.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12786.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
你說訊問的時候 檢官訊問的時候要錄音錄影嘛有錄音錄影嘛對不對 第二天被出現了我們的辯護人看了這個光碟覺得有問題 要求要在庭上公開這有什麼不對你們檢察官在審理中在審理中可不可以公開這是法院的職權這法院的職權法官自會定奪 自會決定要不要在裡面公開的看驗這些偵訊的內容你們的檢察官可以在庭上 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12805.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12816.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
不只沒有自清欸還阻擋這個你自己錄音錄影的光碟要公開而且還提那個最離譜的否定你們提那個最離譜的否定你們的檢察官提的最離譜的他說基於訴訟經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12824.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12846.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以可以不要公開嗎所以那天氣到柯文哲說你把他關了九個多月了你要人起供你現在連一個真信的光碟正大光明沒問題為什麼不敢不敢公開這是審理所的個案這個可不可以公開是不是公開法官自然會決定你們的檢察官對自己的清白一點信心都沒有你是不正確的信心怕什麼捍衛我們檢察官的清白 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12849.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12865.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
你要捍衛你要公開啊 你怎麼去捍衛你這不是做賊心虛嗎 意外迷糟嗎公開審判不就是 法院就是你剛才說你們有錄音跟錄影結果你竟然不公開 這怎麼有辦法自清呢這個是法院的直接決定喔你跟現在講的不是發卦 你講的是檢測卦你們檢測卦不敢公開 還講說什麼推送什麼訴訟經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12874.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12891.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
如果法官有接受檢察官的訴訟資料指向他決定不公開的話,那就是支持檢察官嘛那如果說要公開,我們也尊重法院的決定嘛所以我們不要去干涉法院的決定我們有建議的權,我們建議說不要公開沒有干涉法院,法官會最後會裁定要不要勘驗嘛我會說你檢察官到底在做什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12893.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12906.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
沒有沒有啦 你講太多了啦你沒有不正訊問不正 你如果沒有不正訊問 你到底在怕什麼你做些訊息嘛 來這些事情在法院再訊息他在國會的殿堂再來談一些事要公開 公開新聞光底來 那我們就講通案 來羅秉成怎麼說羅秉成當過政務委員也坐過民進黨行政院的發言人他要說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12917.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12934.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
如果公開真性光碟的目的是在揭發執法人員的濫權行為例如說有檢察官當庭用三字經濟辱罵當事人這個真性光碟公開播放他說基於意志權利的濫用這是一個公義的目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12936.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12960.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
禁止將這個見不得人的真性光碟公開到底是在保護個人的隱私錢還是在掩護違法濫權的公務員檢察官這個不就是這次北檢范柯文哲案裡面的一個最好的寫照嗎你不要用這個不當的原因我再求證不要用不當的原因那個事實是羅秉成講的一個非常好羅政委他個人的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12963.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12978.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
每個人的看法都不一樣當了民進黨大官當然是可以討論嘛但是我說實在你不要拿這些來用在個案的這個自然現在審理所有個案法院自然就會決定要不要公開所以我現在在跟你討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12980.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12992.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
真信光迭要不要公開這個事情來 聽聽大法官劉伯祥要他講劉伯祥要他講你們至少你們不要去阻擋 如果自己做得正沒有不正信問的話 不要去阻擋公開好 劉伯祥要他講他說是怎樣 要公開最主要是因為真信是真信中啊 什麼事情都可能發生在那裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13008.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13035.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
國家跟受信者之間的勢力比例是絕對的懸殊程度你檢測官家這邊的掃秀費還有所有這個被告人家新聞的過程這種過程裡面是絕對懸殊的這個程度針對這種新聞事宗所發生的不法這個情勢公眾本來就有知的權利沒有人希望真信室或者偵查庭變成弱肉強食的侏羅紀公園 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13037.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13056.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
真信前程本來就像你說的有錄影有錄音本來就必要時候要跟公眾播放正是為了使真信的實務得以從侏羅紀進化吧人當成是人還有林峰正 林峰正剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13057.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13066.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
直接召開記者會喔 直接播放台北地檢署那時候的檢察官林冠佑檢察官 成辦的1000年曾志5511號偵查艇時後的這個錄音檔這個追緝 當場追緝這個二檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13076.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13091.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
林鋒正跟他講 法務部應該要正式不釋任法官跟檢察官這個問題拿出滿足人民期待的檢察官評鑑制度讓不肖的檢察官得以被制度淘汰改善我們司法的這個品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13092.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13121.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
委員 那個2012年齁 跟現在經過司改國是會他寫2025年 很多的制度都建立了啦包括個案評鑑法官法官都建立了啦有些制度你不要去談那個歷史啦所以我答應一位北檢我北檢進去旁聽我越聽心內經啦 越怕你們現在的檢察官我知道多數的檢察官是好的可是在我聽了幾個庭你們現在這個檢察官的素質真的有比當初林鋒正跟羅秉貞改革那些二檢來得好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13123.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13139.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這個民調我剛剛已經給你看一次了以前的司法是被信任的多數的司法 多數的法官 多數的檢察官是被信任的最近不只二十萬人上街二十萬人上街去抗議司法迫害民調這麼清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13141.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13158.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
結果都將近六成的人認為政治已經介入到檢調了你不好去改革你還連最基本的政治介入連最基本的我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式的介入啦我們是反對任何形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13159.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13162.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
包括你我啦講的是你們依法 依法受的錄影被質疑的時候要不要公開的問題你們之前有那麼多司改會的人員那麼多民進黨大官要求要做改革為什麼不改呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13176.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13187.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
你到底站的是改革跟反改革那一邊站的是二檢那一邊還是在掩護二檢你有問題要解決問題啊那我會想說如果說真的有二檢就像你說訂二檢你就請求個案評鑑嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13190.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13215.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
各案評鑑的同時剛剛那些良藥苦口你到底要不要去現在制度都建立了怎麼發生這麼多現在人民這麼多質疑呢你建立了什麼制度你搞不好就破壞制度我們有程序說法律嘛就依法嘛好來換那個抱歉那個主席方便再給我三分鐘好不好來請後面要解決人民對司法的沒有信心喪失信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13217.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13233.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
讓你們依法錄音跟錄影的光碟讓人民可以檢視 公開這是一鐵良藥這是挽救你們的聲望 養救你的形象另外一鐵藥也很重要啊委員這個部分我可不可以講一下這三分鐘我問完你再講 法庭直播這幾天有一個非常關鍵的人出來講話媽媽嘴的受害人媽媽嘴的老闆 李炳宏 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13247.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13269.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
他說 董初如果有法庭直播那時候法庭就不會變成黑箱了那時候是媒體審判北檢把消息漏給了媒體連高永成監察委員後來做調查都發現這個案子有偵查不公開媒體審判的這個事情現在媽媽嘴的這個老闆 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13271.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13283.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
出來喊冤他說應該要有法庭直播他說當初身為一個被告我真的沒有任何武器可以對抗他開庭的時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13285.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13305.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我才知道我真正要被羈押的理由是什麼這是第一類 第二類他說明明當庭的時候檢察官提出來的證據一一都被反駁被打臉了可是因為沒有公開外界到現在很多都還不知道啊你看一個人受到冤屈因為沒有公開到現在他都在喊冤第三個更離譜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13307.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13323.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
他後來被釋放了因為檢察官說他案發的時候有他的車子他後來說車子印證不是他的他被當庭釋放結果檢察官出來怎麼講檢察官說我對不起死者沒有把他押起來法官都給他清白了檢察官還倒打他一把 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13332.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13358.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以他說對於檢察官檢察官面對媒體的表演事實上他根本是沒辦法對抗所以像試過那麼多年他多大的冤屈他還出來喊冤第二個你們一直在講說會不會有華眾其寵我給大家看一下美國最高法院的法官啊都公開出來講明尼斯達州最高法院的法官他怎麼說 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13359.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13376.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
他沒有看到任何跟直播有的時候或者是法庭公開的時候有發動起損的這個例子另外喬治亞州的一個法官Steven一直在講在他那個州啊從有直播開始從來沒有出現法官或者律師的不當行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13382.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13406.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
鄭文榮啊 前幾天在這個庭鄭文榮是綠色的耶挺扁的耶他講什麼他說現在很多人反對法庭直播是什麼就是因為是黃國昌提出來就變成問題了還有為什麼20個法律團體出來聲明他說現在法律人的一些團體跟法律台灣的法律是不是跟社會已經脫節了我最後要講的是複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13409.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13434.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
無私謠無造謠在這個地方說只有中國大陸北韓這種專制的國家才有直播結果一堆民眾每一個每個幫忙找你看這東西我們國家比印度比印尼比南非還落後嗎全球七大洲除了南極之外六大洲都有都有法庭直播所以你們為什麼要擋呢而且是2017年 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13440.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13454.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
做了結論啊能不能跟上一個時代不要再在反改革那一面特別是我剛剛講的人民對司法的信任度越來越低真信的光碟要公開第二個法庭直播趕快推動你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13455.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13475.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
委員我非常不能夠同意說那個法庭直播就是一個先進我覺得這個完全不是一個價值的一個就是那個二分法那就是說你要引用其他國家的話我們應該去全面去看如果按你這樣標準的話我們來問說台灣有沒有那個實施法庭直播我們憲法法庭也有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13475.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13498.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那但是不能從這個地方我們就去說那我們的事實審要開放就像大家去談美國可是美國的聯邦層級的各級法院也通通都不允許了那你在這邊你要談那個英國英國他們也只有開放那個上訴審啊那即使說是那個你要再講事實的話你要再講更精緻那個講的話他們的那個皇家那個刑事法院也只有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13499.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13519.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
法官對大家說明說我這個量刑理由所以也只能到這個地方但是事實審這完全都不行的啊那所以我覺得就是說你要引用其他國家我們一定要更精緻的就是說去談說他們允許的條件那當然就是每個人都可以有每個人的那個意見跟他的那個表達那個就是你剛引用的那個呂秉紅他的意見我們尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13521.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13546.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
但是一個人這樣子的意見就要立刻變成是我們國家的一個那個制度嗎李炳宏甚至他只有進入偵查他完全沒有被那個沒有被起訴他個人完全沒有經歷過審理中那引他的話來主張說我們是審邀法庭直播我覺得這個論證對不對媽媽嘴的李炳宏有非常大的代表性他是中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13547.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13560.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
被檢察官偵查不公開 洩露秘密而且造成媒體公審我以前在做 這是電視台啊有多少的媒體每天晚上都在報導他的新聞做他這個節目 他今天是被定罪的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13561.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13581.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那時候他已經社會死亡耶他當然有潛力出來講這個事情啊這是一個點 第二點沒有沒有那個 蜂蜜你剛講沒有錯各個國家都有他的不一樣的我現在是跟你講很多的民眾現在都提出來說全世界絕大部分很多國家都已經有了嘛而且台灣民眾黨是非常的理性務實科學的我們用的是2017年 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13583.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13604.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
司法國事會議 司改國事會議的結論我們高度的限縮只有重大的公益還有社會矚目的這個案件而且是由法官來決定的喔所以包括從經費沒有像民進黨造謠那麼多而且它是高度的緊縮的只有對社會有重大公益的重大的矚目的案子才有 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13606.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13617.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好不好 我們去落實你不要打臉你不要打臉 蔡英文不要打臉當初2017年的司法改革啦趕快做 我們繼續找時間再來討論好不好 好不好OK 好 謝謝委員 我不能講囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13618.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13637.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們等一下 那下次我們繼續 好不好那個旅美案件不是台北地檢辦的齁應該主席應該很清楚對啊 那個旅美案件啊 你是發佈保證哪個檢 你不用管這個士林地檢是吧士林地檢 新北 北檢出問題的檢察官你都要處理啦 都要好好去你不要變成是 不是變成共患在掩蓋主席應該很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13639.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13666.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
你也是承辦法官嘛承辦檢察官你們都弄錯了你們都弄錯了這件...不是 這件當...這樣 這樣喔不是啦 我跟你講大家不要亂講啦那個案子根本不是這樣那個案子是前面有一個假官辦了出問題之後我們進去救援就現在社會上面亂講一通對嘛 所以當初那個當初你們接手之前那個檢察官有沒有...這樣真相可以呈現 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13667.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13689.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這件跟北檢也無關啦北檢啦 我在問法務部長怎麼會問北檢剛剛在談北檢啦 柯文哲案子是北檢那剛剛這個案子不是啦沒有啦 那個鍾憲你現在就是當初你是解鎖的 現在我們在談前面出的問題嘛OK 好啦 那量體藥法庭直播 新聞光底公開這個才是搶救我們的司法最重要的量體藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13691.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13719.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
不是 張委員 這件我也是算是間接被害人因為我們當年進去救援這個案子把這個粗暴的案子救回來 救到最後這個民進黨可以造謠說是我們在前面搞鬼我覺得這個黑的白的 胡說八道一通你應該去跟民進黨抗議 把事情導正不過那個媽媽嘴的老闆真的很倒霉啦他證實說要站出來要一個公道是對的他也有公開出來澄清說前面辦案出事情跟我們無關沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13721.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13723.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
謝謝主席 本席請法務部政部長麻煩政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13743.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13758.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
委員好部長今天本席要跟您探討我們少年犯罪形態的變異以及少年事件處理法的一個漏洞根據警政署的報告我不知道您了不了解109年到113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13761.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13789.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我們雖然長期台灣已經少子化了但是在109年到113年呢少年每10萬人的犯罪人口率卻驚人的增加了非常多20% 將近20%這是警政署的數據那更嚴重的是近五年少年犯罪主要的案類我猜你應該知道最近五年少年犯罪的主要案類是哪一類 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13791.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13801.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
跟委員報告 你就答就好 不用我時間因為這個統計數據我這邊沒有 詐欺是首位應該詐欺在是毒品之類的本席 詐欺是首位那這個詐欺到了113年更達到了27.7% 將近30%了那其中七成是擔任車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13818.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13842.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那這個不是隔岸 這個是一個很嚴重的警示請問部長 現行的少年事件處理法對於我們少年啊 處罰者 裁定保護處分成年後 前案記錄可以塗銷的機制現在已經被犯罪集團公然利用所以造成這個少年犯罪成本低刑責輕 易塗銷前科的現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13845.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13866.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
部長,這個現狀你們有注意到嗎?該怎麼解決?這部分因為少女思想處理法的主管法規是司法院那這部分我的看法跟你一樣啦我們希望這個問題要去解決那請副秘書長,如果是司法院我們請王副秘書長好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13875.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13892.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
現在應該說這個現況我們少年犯罪的情況太誇張了而且現在被犯罪集團拿來利用我們的少年那這種情況要想辦法解決啊因為他覺得沒關係啊反正刑責輕然後意圖消 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13896.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13925.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
所以我們其實當初我們是想要給我可以理解我們要給孩子一個改過自新的機會但是我們卻被犯罪集團製造了一個無限複製的機會那這種情況這不是法治這是兒戲所以我們要求這個部分你們沒有任何的措施或也沒有發現現況也沒有想要改善有 謝謝委員那個垂詢就是相關的這個問題綜合大家那個反應事實上我們也做了那個研議那我們也提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13929.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13950.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我們也做了一個修法那個對策那這個法律那個草案都已經做完了現在也出了司法院院會那現在目前是在跟那個行政院會選的階段那要多久啊你們這個要弄多久我已經離開我們司法院了你說現在到什麼階段到行政院行政院那法務部應該就你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13952.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13956.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
行政院的院會有通過禮拜四禮拜四會來討論這禮拜四是不是禮拜四要討論行政院要討論所以那沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13967.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13981.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我想部長這裡一定要去反映因為這種情況一定要加強而且要加速改善我們的孩子你看我們都少子化了我們還讓我們的孩子被犯罪集團這樣利用那這樣的一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13983.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14005.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
法條的這種問題呢產生了多少少年被利用還有多少個家庭破碎所以這一塊我們非常重視所以那是不是可以給出一個確切的修法的期程可以嗎這個要是司法院的修法的期程少年事件處理法的修法期程應該有在討論的時候應該也有訂出來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14010.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14031.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那個就是因為要兩院會嫌 這個法案是要兩院會嫌行政院趕快提出來 我想我們立法院行政院這個地方只要那個通過之後 我們會嫌完了 我們就送進立法院行政院要多久通過啊 明天討論什麼事明天就討論了好啦 部長 你知道我們大家很重視我們也非常重視 跟我們的看法是一致的那接著還有一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14033.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14055.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
副秘書長您可以請回我繼續請教部長我想除了修法也還不夠還有警政署的報告也指出我們這些少年被利用但是好像都查不到共犯的身份也就是說我們去追溯查不到這些成年的共犯還有犯罪集團的成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14057.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14084.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這一個問題也是非常非常大所以我們想要了解部長請教您檢警單位針對組織型的詐欺、毒品、暴力、討債等犯罪集團面對現在我們的少年被這樣利用有沒有採取什麼具體有效的策略突破你們偵查的困境因為你都讓我們的少年被人家推到第一線對不對然後藏在後面的淫污者這個幕後黑手 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14085.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14095.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我们都没有办法这个一定要突破而且本席想知道有没有什么成功案例还有有多少能够真正查到神之遗法 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14097.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14124.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
跟委員報告因為少年事件處理法這次修法通過了我們對少年我們是沒辦法去做去做詢問的對我剛剛講的是偵查這個案件少年他背後的那個主使者害他的對那這部分那個後面不清掉永遠很多少年有時候抓到車手嘛例如說少年當車手那如何去往上這樣溯源那我們少年事件處理法不允許我們去 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14125.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14141.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
接觸少年去參與這份的偵辦所以我們現在事實上那少年事件處理法的問題可是我現在跟你探討的是我們為什麼偵查能力能夠這樣失能你要想辦法因為法律規定我們禁止我們檢察官那你要去去接觸這個去問 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14142.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14161.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那所以我們都不用去查幕後的幕後那些犯罪集團那些成年人那些指使我們的少年這些壞人所以我們要希望少年能夠提供相關的資料讓我們上上溯源嘛去溯源刨根嘛但是舊本席知道有些少年他也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14162.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14190.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
有沒有 他也不知道到底他接觸的是誰他的上手是誰的話他可以提供提供有些人說有些少年能夠提供那是最好但是我知道有些少年沒辦法去做提供嘛那這部分我們也是有做一些測驚作為就是說我們拜託我們就請各地典屬委跟少年法庭跟少年法院拜託是不是再就這部分我們來解決因為這個是權利是在法院那邊的這個很多年下來所以部長我真的拜託你們一定要想辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14191.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14212.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
人力夠不夠人力要越多越好但是目前到底我們沒辦法突破的問題是人力還有法令法令的限制法令的限制是我們最困擾的所以現在就想辦法突破這個法令的限制請委員支持這個修法如果說給我們檢察官有更大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14213.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14230.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
一個一個參與偵辦的一個權利的話不過要問司法院司法院要不要給我們這個權利那請副秘書長您可以針對我們剛剛講這個這個問題沒有辦法突破這個司法院這邊因為我想這個問題因為修新的法律之後又碰到 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14231.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14255.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
成少共犯的問題包括不是只有詐團還有包括毒品的這個問題等等還有甚至洗錢的問題那我想我們在辦案的團隊這邊我們希望這邊在但這要整體很多事情要整體考量在這個少事法這部分是不是有更宽寬給我們做一些的調整可以給我們能夠檢察官有辦法去參與這部分我們現在連參與權都沒辦法所以那我可不可以請一下副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14257.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14281.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這個部分您的看法我們共同解決我們台灣少年犯罪的問題我原來你講的這個部分是因為那個修法之後有關於那個少年的處分不在檢察官那邊移到法院來了那所以說就是陳少共犯的時候不像過去就是說檢察官可以全部請問但是我們在意的是怎麼樣能夠讓檢警可以去查到 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14282.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14307.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那個真正一直來源就是那些後面的那個主腦這一個部分就是在目前還沒有那個修法階段的話就是院方跟檢方這邊更進一步的精細的那個聯繫說那個少年在少年法庭問過之後呢用證人身份怎麼樣的以證人身份然後就是傳訊到檢方這地方去接受訊問那我想這個都是可以接洽就是大家討論你們講的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14308.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14336.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
法案法令跟程序但是我們更重視的是這個這個現象這種情況一定要改善是好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們下一位請葉委員知委員發言我們請那個警政署跟教育部謝謝好 警政署教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14346.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14359.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
館長兩位署長我先請教一下那個國教署長去年曾經有關心過一個議題那時候還是潘文忠部長的時候就是說我們很多從關貨所出來的那些少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14359.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14384.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
然後其實有些學校有建議啦說是不是應該政府要成立一些中繼組織讓他們從關戶所出來後可以先到這些中繼組織先接受一些輔導之後再讓他到學校那當時潘文忠部長還有那個之前還是陳建仁部長說他去年就會著手開始做這個事情然後也有提到說全國有非常多的團體當時是說三十幾間團體啦後來可能還有在增加願意來做這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14389.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14405.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
然後要建構一個計畫那剛好今天委員會排這個題目啦所以我特別來問一下署長這個計畫現在進行的怎樣委員所關心的是國度性教育措施計畫這個計畫在去年四月完成之後各縣市都有申辦目前全國各縣市都有申請22個點22個點夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14409.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14436.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
目前是照顧了大概超過20位以上的孩子像新北市就有3位到5位類似這樣那目前我們追蹤每一位的孩子的處置情形那照顧的情況讓他在轉嫌的期間用評估的方式跟不同的課程那是目前是有效的不過我們還會持續擴大來辦理可能這個署長我覺得聽起來那個量人可能還要再擴充可能聽起來數量好像不太夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14437.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14455.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
這件事剛啟動剛開始啟動所以繼續繼續啦還有一個就是盡量不要讓所有的這些從關戶所出來的少年讓他們聚在一起啦因為大家也會擔心說會變成一個犯罪大學可以用個別輔導那能不能也朝向這個方向去努力如果要擴充能量的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14455.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14467.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
委員所提的觀點我們都會納入一起來處理所以說大概會不會大概還會不會你說一個初步算是一個事辦計畫那也不是事辦已經是正式計畫了我們完成一年後我們會再檢視像委員剛剛的建議我把它納入OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14472.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14500.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
然後再來我跟那個警政署問一下因為我們都知道陳儒剛剛前面委員也有提到啦現在很多其實很多幫派都會到學校去吸收青少年嘛當然可能跟法律也有關係因為他們錢都可以突銷啦所以那這些幫派可能又跟詐騙集團就結合嘛然後所以很多學生就會當車手這也就是為什麼蠻多少年他是他會因為詐欺犯被辦的原因那我想說這部分其實少年隊應該要有一些角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14500.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14514.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那之前其實因為這個狀況是越來越嚴重那我不知道是說警政署有沒有針對這一個趨勢去擴充少年隊的人力然後或者是改變少年隊跟學校的一些緊密的合作方式有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14515.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14531.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
包委員那對於少年隊的這個角色確實扮演很重要的一個部分那我們會要求跟學校做綿密的一個做聯繫尤其是情資方面的學校提供給我們這些有沒有這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14532.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14555.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這個學生的這些偏差或者是有這些這個校外的這些介入的狀況來據以做了解跟偵辦那我想現在那能力的擴充有可能嗎我想現在少年隊的這個這個這個警力應該是夠了最主要就是在跟學校的這個落實度有沒有做這樣的落實度的去做執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14555.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14583.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
什麼叫落實度也就是說對於這一些學校有一些學校就是可能就是為了學校的聲譽啦的名譽的這個關係就是可能有一些沒有界階上我覺得就是要更更真實度一點就是提供這些訊息可以更可以更真實度來距離做雖然意思是說其實少年隊是很希望協助但學校可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14583.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14601.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
有些學校不太願意讓少年隊知道這些問題就是說我們有一些這個部分要去再加強去做這樣的一個加強聯繫的一個情形你是署長嘛那你覺得應該要這樣嘛那如果說沒有這樣子的話那會提出什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14602.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14617.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
改善的方式 那我們當然很多也不是學校一些面向再來就是網路上也是一個面向就是說會從網路上去了解到有沒有做犯罪上的這個跡象可以去做溯源 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14618.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14636.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
就是說有沒有這些像中錯生啊 中離生啊或學透過這樣的一個群職的來源那個時間快到好我講一下其實這跟我跟學校了解的狀況有一些讓我跟學校了解是跟老師了解啦狀況是不太一樣其實有些老師是還蠻希望少年隊可以協助幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14637.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14648.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
因為這些老師在學校是沒有辦法去面對那些幫派學生的所以會擔心我們是非常願意我覺得你們可以再多加強跟學校的溝通好 謝謝謝謝 我們下一位請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14662.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14688.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
好 謝謝主席 在這邊有請教政署的署長 周署長署長委員好因為時間的關係 我趕快問那麼我們知道其實預防兒童及少年犯罪的發生有效地降低再犯率我覺得這件非常重要的事情那行政院其實在今年1月份的時候也有核定了一個預防兒童及少年犯罪方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14688.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14711.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那麼是規劃四年從114年到117年然後建構三級的預防策略結合警政、社政、衛政、司法、教育等等各單位的資源來提供全面更有效的輔導那現在是這樣的我想請教一下就是說在有關於這個矯正學校的學生他們出校之後的再辦率 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14712.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14739.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
事實上本席在去年的時候我也曾經有請司法院有提供相關的這個城鎮中學名陽中學等等這些學生出校之後的再犯率的狀況那麼可以知道就是像是城鎮中學它在去年一整年的這個時間裡面出校人數59人其中有9個人再犯那麼名陽中學那麼目前為止是沒有所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14741.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14762.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
本席想請教就是矯正署這裡對於所謂的後險對於這些再犯的問題你們自己有沒有做過研究檢討就是在整個矯正學校內部裡面當時怎麼樣去輔導這些孩子們那為什麼他們出去了之後也許在很快的時間裡面又再犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14764.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14786.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
報告委員我們賽角校出校的學生我們有後追孕一年一年內追蹤但是這個追蹤並不是為了要統計他的災患而是統計他出校以後就學有多少人就業有多少人那如果就醫的包括說失聯的比例有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14787.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14815.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
就失聯的部分我們會再轉介給衛福部來做一些相關的追蹤因為一般的少年他出校以後他的心態是比較不願意跟我們機構人員來做聯繫尤其他如果有換案另換他案的話他幾乎就失失聯了你也找不到他但是我們有提供給衛福部在持續 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14815.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14844.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那外務部也有做相關的社區的追蹤他的那個追蹤比例也有高達九成多跟七成多的了解好 那麼聽起來就是你們只有在出校之後的一年之內你們可能會有聯繫有去追蹤這樣的一個少年可是就是對於他們之後有沒有再犯的這個情況你們就沒有再去持續的勾結相關的資料然後去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14846.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14867.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
這個為什麼後來他們有可能會再犯因為我個人認為說在這個矯正學校裡面其實既然安排了很多課程心理輔導啊等等這些部分其實應該要更有效的能夠強化這些少年他們在學校裡面學習的這個成果就總希望說他們出校之後未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14868.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14890.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這個能夠回歸這個正常進入到社會然後從事這個正常的這些工作或者就學等等那麼而不會說之後又再犯所以這個部分的話我希望就是矯正署能夠可以未來加強在後續追蹤了解的這個狀況進行相關一些研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14891.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14905.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我們有跟司法院來聯繫因為這些初校學生他有可能有一些什麼偏差行為他是會轉介到少母會或是保護觀察或是其他社會機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14906.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14925.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
他轉介出去的話他不會回到我們少角校所以我們也沒有那個潛力可以去追蹤說他到底跑到哪邊去了除非他已經少角校可能要請王副秘書長從司法院角度來講的話對於這個青少年再犯的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14927.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14955.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
就是有沒有過去到現在為止有一些更積極的作為去了解這個再犯少年的情況跟委員報告就是那個司法院這邊有的那個工具統計工具就是說他們從那個矯正學校那個出來之後我們會有那個記錄那如果說他們再犯的話會進到就是那個少年法院就是有觸法行為嘛又再一次進到那個法院來那他就會有一個那個記錄那我們都持續都有那個追蹤統計那從 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14957.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14983.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
110年到113年從矯正學校少年出校之後的再進來的那個人數有31個人那估計大概比例是4.26那但是也要跟委員報告就是說我們這個數據事實上是會有一部分有盲點的因為我少年呢他事實上就只有在那個18歲以下所以說他如果說是那個出去之後他已經是成年的那這部分數據我們就沒有辦法就從這邊去撈 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14985.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15002.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
以上所以如果說是從這個更要精進整個的這個少年的關懷還有再進入到矯正學校之後以及他的再犯這個相關的這個情況其實我認為說應該要再做一些研究可以了解否則的話就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15004.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15026.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個事實上就是從犯罪防的角度來看我覺得這也是有必要的所以我也希望就是司法院是不是之後能夠再把相關的問題然後這個開始委託研究計畫可以做得更清楚那另外就是司法院這邊資料可能也要未來跟法務部或是矯正署這邊的資料能夠互相提供就是讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15027.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15056.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
整個的這個學生們他出校了之後再進入矯正學校之後出校之後他後續的情況如何我覺得這個時機上是有必要要去做研究分析的這個可以有效的來改善整個的我們的這個犯罪預防還有犯罪事後的矯正等等這些問題那接下來呢我還再請教的就是說因為其實在矯正學校裡面我們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15057.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15075.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
老師們也很辛苦老師們謝謝王副秘書長也先請回矯正學校裡面的其實老師們也很辛苦我們在昨天的這個詢答的時候其實對於整個矯正機關人力不足的問題我們都有提到我們現在的借貨人力比基本上是過低應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15079.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15102.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
應該是介護人力比 其實跟其他國家相比較的話我們介護人力其實負擔很重那對於矯正學校的員工來說也是雖然說他們扮演的主要是像是導師、輔導教師等等這些角色那麼但是對於這些矯正學校的教職員的薪資、待遇等等那麼矯正署這邊有給他們一些特別的佳績嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15105.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15120.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
有關家籍的部分我們一般的就是有分直接進入穿制服的或是外科室的教化人員我們有分直接危險津貼跟間接的危險津貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15122.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15124.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這個部分當然我們將來會改為類似比照移民署這樣子分為三級到時候我們會看實際的情況有一些像教化人員我想這邊跟署長報告就是說其實呢你們那種加節的分類方法我不是那麼同意喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15140.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15161.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
就是依照所謂的危險的等級去給予加級我覺得這固然重要可是對於像是在繳聖學校裡面的這個教職人員的輔導他們等於是一種特別的特殊的一種教育的方式而且他們可能所承受所承擔的教育的任務跟一般的學校的教育任務也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15162.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15176.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
對 我認為說這個部分可能可以思考就是給予他們一些特別的專業佳績我現在要請教就是教這學校的員工的他的離職率狀況如何他有沒有就是常常的他的流動率 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15177.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15203.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
他的離職率是很高報告委員 我們有做全台的所謂的離職率的調查這個離職率有含 等於辭職 商調 還有退休的大概每一年可能是4.5%到5%之間的離職率那現在平均一個老師他是照顧多少的這個矯正學校的這些學生們 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15204.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15230.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
如果以那個委員剛剛有提到那個專輔人力來講我們這裡面有很重要的特教老師特教老師的師生比現在是1比15但是我們理想我們要將來希望能夠達到1比8那如果要達到1比8我們還要爭取的言語我們有評估過大概還要增加10名所謂的特教老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15231.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15236.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
是我想特教老師的他的這個師生比如果是1比15的話那真的是非常高這個對於特教老師來講他的這個所他的身心壓力各方面都會非常高那麼我個人的想法是說基本上還是要積極的去爭取這個更多的名額那麼剛剛署長講說1比8可能我都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15252.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15270.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個比例跟其他國家相比還是算是偏高那麼當然就是說可能給直接先給誘因也很重要如果說我們給矯正學校裡面的教輔人員可以給他們更多的在薪資上面或是家籍上面的保障我相信可以吸引到更多不錯的這個師資 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15274.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15294.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
來進入到矯正學校那畢竟如果說在矯正學校裡面能夠好好的照顧這群青少年讓他們未來出校之後能夠改邪歸正然後有更好的發展而不是又重新回到監獄或是這個矯正學校我認為這樣的投資是值得的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15294.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15318.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
是 報告委員 在少角校我們這些老師也有所謂的學術獎勵會不過整個全體來講 我們會針對業務的環雜度我們來盡量爭取少角校這些老師的一些津貼讓他能夠對於他這份工作珍惜 能夠去來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15318.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15320.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
好聽到署長這樣的話我就放心了但是我還是希望說請你們可能這個給我一份就是相關的報告對於現在這個西街矯正學校那麼他的師資員額比以及就是對於這個新設人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15333.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15354.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
還有教化人力等等在這些矯正學校裡面它實際的數據如何以及你們未來認為說哪些地方需要檢討的要再給予這些矯正學校的相關的人力更多的津貼補貼那麼本席在這邊的話我承諾我可以幫助你們去改善相關的一些學校以及教育環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15357.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15364.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
希望這個署長你可以兩個禮拜一個月之後 給我這份報告好嗎好的那就麻煩你了 謝謝那下一位我們請林倩琦委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15379.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15390.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
謝謝主席我這邊先請法務部長還有我們矯正署長跟我們內政部的警政署那後續的一些相關議題我們再請相關人員來做一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15393.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15412.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
部長 署長 是這樣 我也很感謝昭緯今天排了這樣一個題目因為本席先前也關心過我們在少子化的過程當中 結果青少年的刑案嫌疑人也越來越高那四萬七這個數目我記得先前在其他的議題裡面我也提過所以今天針對這個看起來有點觸目驚心的議題我們來做相關的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15417.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15440.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
然後希望在未來我們能夠稍微減低這樣子的一個數字我想這個是今天很重要一點然後另外也就是很務實的一個問題就是在少事法少年事件處理法在兩年前增修了這個行政輔導先行的制度並且也把它寫入法條那成為我們很重要的一個針對青少年偏差行為的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15441.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15461.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
處理的轉捩點那這個部分也實行了一段時間那所以在今天我們再來做個討論然後來看看這個過去實行的這個部分有沒有一些偏離初衷或者是陷入某一些理論跟實際操作上空轉的一個情況那所以今天我們也可以針對這個各個部會所負起的這個缺口來討論一個比較具體的一個實質的這個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15469.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15488.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以我們也知道在前年2023年的7月這個少事法也增修了第18條那所以這是我們今天討論的重點就是行政輔導先行那也就是我們的這個青少年的司法處遇邁向一個預防重於治療的一個模式那這點是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15488.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15509.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那這個部分基本上是行政先介入來替代形式的追溯然後透過教育社會跟多層面的一個關心輔導然後來處理青少年的偏差那很重要的一點從這個法條開始之後呢那第一線的這個部分就從司法轉移到各地方政府那各地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15509.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15535.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
當然連帶的就是這個少婦團所以在經過兩年的實施那這個部分呢我們其實要來討論一下就是制度設計跟現場有沒有一些落差那在理論上行政輔導是各縣市政府設置的少年輔導委員會來主導那麼必須要從教育、社政、警政跟這個司法等資源來處理戶險少年那實施多面向的一個輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15536.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15559.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
但是本席這邊的掌握還包括剛才也有委員這邊提到一些數據那全國各地的這個少府會其實在人力編制上資源調度上跟跨部會協力的一個能力上有很大的落差那這個部分做得比較好的就是六都直轄縣市它已經有一些運作流程跟專業的配置那可以在速度上很快直接進入一個深度輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15560.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15587.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
但是許多的縣市除了六都以外的中南部縣市還有非都市的這個區域社工、心理師跟專任人力的這個長期短缺結果有的時候連基本的通報個案都沒有辦法落實那在這個情況下那各部會是不是有掌握這個少府會實際執行的能力跟人力的配比那有沒有提供最低的人力跟預算的配置標準那 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15588.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15609.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
這是本席看到的資源分配不均不知道是不是這個部分可以跟本席做一個回應這個是警政署的業務是不是是那就先請警政署這邊目前步險少年就是由這個各縣市政府的底下的少輔來做執行目前全國大概有兩百六十幾位的一個輔導員 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15613.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15638.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
那就你們原先的預算兩百六十幾位這樣子的人力上所以就是說除了剛剛委員講六都裡面也是只有台北市的建制是比較制度比較健全經費由台北市政府來做一個補助一年大概有兩千萬左右那其他各縣市大概都用那個三網的這個資金來做補助那確實在於這個各縣市的這個少府會的組織的這個編制的原額 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15639.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15654.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
以及他們的這個執行方面應該是有檢討的一個空間你這邊有一個總量的預期嗎?有有有總量多少?你說那個就你們預估這樣子的一個業務在正式或正常的總量上大概是我們預計到 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15655.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15670.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
大概有300位左右的這個一個員額那現在目前這個除了台北市以外其他的各縣我講的都是由社安房的這個來做補助那未來如果制度要做更健全的話就是各縣市政府一定要資助這樣的一個資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15673.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15676.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這部分就變成各縣市政府必須獨立去處理各縣市政府必須獨立去處理各縣市政府必須獨立去處理各縣市政府必須獨立去處理各縣市政府必須獨立去處理各縣市政府必須獨立去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15697.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15724.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
這個也是一個問題我覺得這個是要討論這個應該是有這個是一個架構的問題是一個討論一個空間那我想稍微目前執行到現在從開始從這個110人到目前為止我們大概輔導有4600多人那在數據上你們都會有但是實質上其實有點缺乏這個整合的能力跟操作彈性上是比較差的所以未來這個是不是執行的效果怎麼樣那我現在講功能的問題就是稍微這個定位它是不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15725.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15750.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
不是一個司法單位它是要建立信任關係對於少年跟家長如果他們不配合的話這會大打折扣所以基本上這個問題其實我們是希望前端能夠來預防他們就不用進入到司法這樣一個體系但是很多學校以家長為主以學校跟家長為主但是跨部門的聯動其實是比較差的 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15754.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15783.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那很多 我舉個例啦有少年多次被通報涉毒 暴力或者是成為受害 有家暴受害者時呢有沒有明確的機制來召集教育 社政跟檢警還有少婦會的跨部門協作我們剛剛也有討論這個這個部分要加長去做聯繫剛剛就是所以就是要加長嘛整合的部分不管是在社政啦 學校啦或者是這些衛福的單位這個要去做整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15783.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15804.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
所以這樣看起來這一兩年實際的操作上其實有點空轉對不對行政先行那但是在前面的這個區塊我看每一個單位他要這樣跨部門其實都有點困難甚至你們中央也是有點困難我覺得就是未來就是要有一個平台啦就是包括資料資訊傳遞各方面要去做整個有一個平台所以您希望這個平台應該是在中央層級還是地方層級應該是要在中央層級有一個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15811.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15834.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好 所以那我想請教一下 那你們這幾年有一些成效評估嗎目前我們有看到一些數據啦 就是通報案件數還有開案的輔導數 跟轉介的比例 有這些量化指標但是很重要一點就是說 那青少年實際行為的改善你們這邊是不是有一些比較具體的內容 跟長期的這個追蹤那完成行政輔導以後的再犯率 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15835.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15864.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
反效率家庭重建的情況那有沒有一些偵測跟公開那我們知道其他國家已經把這種diversion的制度也就是轉向這個從司法轉向的一個處域做了資料庫跟相關的這個報告那我不知道我們這邊有沒有相關單位在進行我想剛才翁委員好像講了一個跟我概念很接近的東西那請你們也做應該做一些比較詳實的調查也就是說在內容的部分跟實際的掌握度那不知道那個這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15865.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15880.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
中央單位有沒有人做?我知道你們第一線也蠻辛苦的那這個部分有沒有掌握?對 邵委會的部分就是執行了這些相關輔導的這個成效結果的相關的這個順序我是可以提供委員來做一個參考那是不是就麻煩你們把這個報告來給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15881.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15895.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那今天因為時間的關係我最後還是做一個提醒我們這個預防勝於治療的這樣一個制度邏輯主要是希望少年所涉及的行為還沒有構成刑責或還在低度風險的時候能夠趕快把它納入風險的分級跟及時的轉介 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15900.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15925.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那但是呢如果少年一旦有這個嚴重暴力跟組織性犯罪或者是受幫派控制那在行政上其實無力介入那他可能會導致嚴務了這個司法的處遇那是不是在這個部分可以有一個機制至少在目前能夠快速轉入司法的程序那麼跟檢警建立一些這種系統那你們的看法是如何法務部如果知道也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15926.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15937.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
也可以回應那剛剛也談過就是少年跟成少共犯的一個就是要趕快轉介如果行政上失能的話那怎麼樣趕快進入正式的一個處置所以這點就麻煩你們多注意然後把該給我的報告給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15946.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15966.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那另外這個青少年犯罪率的問題其實是今天這個交委一直也談到的也就是我們小子化了結果青少年犯罪的數量比例竟然越來越高那這樣子層數相比其實非常的嚴重那詐欺毒品應該是這裡面很重要青少年犯罪的一個主軸嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15967.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15983.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以像很多青少年被組織吸納然後被網路詐騙集團來利用然後呢這個部分法務部對這樣的趨勢有沒有很清楚的一個分析跟因應的對策如果有可不可以給本席這樣一個報告然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15984.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16012.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
相關的一個報告也指出家庭功能的失調還有智能邊緣少年如果沒有辦法妥善的輔導那網路帶來一些負面影響就都導致這樣一個數量來增加那會導致一個問題就是說青少年的再犯問題會非常的嚴重那所以目前這個數量其實已經百分之25%已經四分之一的青少年會進入司法體系那另外還有就是說當他們回到學校以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16013.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16033.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
在學校的這個適應跟學校其他同學的一個相處那這個回歸計畫也就是說那這樣子的這個青少年會不會同時也有一些同儕的影響那這個部分我不知道教育部或者是這個相關單位你們的看法跟目前控制的一個狀況跟委員報告就是有關的少年之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16034.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16056.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我有關心的就是少年的輔導轉型的那個就學就業就醫的等等這部分齁那個這部分就有那個司法院他們有少年保護官喔少年保護官去做醫接的輔導那因為我們法務部齁因為少年身處理我們最新的修好我們檢察官在對少年的犯罪防你們都沒有辦法涉入沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16056.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16084.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
所以看這個橫向的聯繫是不是也可以再更積極一點我們希望就是說我們能夠做的全力去做就是在宣導我們會結合就是地檢署以及結合各個機關我們就用團隊的方式去做宣導那另外防治面的那我們跟各部會共同推動那個預防少年兒童放棄犯是不是比較相關的細節您再把報告那個我們相關我再跟我們法務部能夠做哪些可以跟各部會去合作我想我呼籲一下更積極一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16085.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16103.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那另外這個教育部可能我們講的就是說當然我們也希望在行政上能夠把這個少年有偏差行為的少年趕快做一個處理不要到司法但是如果已經在這樣一個階段那回到學校那相對其他的同學的一個公平性可能是不是請教育部這邊也多注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16104.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16124.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
好嗎那最後一個問題我就是不是也請司法院因為剛才其實我們在那個第一線不好意思複密就我這邊跟你探討一下剛才其實在警政署這邊也談到在實務操作上的一個困難那本席這邊有個想法就是說其實你下放到各地方政府那他要做這樣一個少婦會 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16125.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16134.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
的平台然後這個平台還要去整合各單位其實事實上是真正有困難那有沒有可能在中央設一個部會署來處理這樣跨部會這樣子的一個議題那至少這些青少年在成長的過程當中我們能夠很積極的 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16143.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16162.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
讓這個預防來剩餘治療然後讓他們盡量不要到司法可是看起來雜項事務非常多相關單位也很多那地方政府的量能我們剛才也看到除了這個六都甚至只有一都目前大概在正常的一個情況其他部分很多委員看到的數據基本上也是不足的 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16162.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16185.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
所以有沒有可能有一個中央的這樣的單位然後來跟地方的這個消普部會來做一個對口我不知道您對這樣一個看法如何謝謝委員那委員的那個方向那個個人也贊同那但是就是畢竟那個行政先行他跟那個司法這個是完全不同的那個領域現在那個司法就是整個修法方向跟那個兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16187.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16204.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
國際公約上面他談的都是一個司法他要最後那個手段就只有觸法的時候才會進來那所以現在今天委員剛剛所垂詢的這些問題都是在前端就是還在那個行政先行的這個但是原先其實就是希望能夠從司法不要審 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16206.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16233.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
這邊要那個中央要有一個中央部會我想這個方向是對但是那個中央部會他應該不是在那個司法整個體制上不是在司法院中央部會的一個平台是可以討論的中央部會的一個平台但是應該是在行政院是在行政院底下而不是在司法院否則體系的話對啦我只是說跟您探討這樣一個想法的那個趨向因為剛才我們看警政署他也是很辛苦因為每個部會各司其職 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16234.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16248.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
但是這麼跨部會來針對這個青少年犯罪跟成長的這個問題其實是在實務上是必須要很直接的所以我其實今天有一些書面請各單位給我一些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16249.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16270.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
但是這個有一個部分我想跟您確定是不是您這邊可以給我當法院不開始審理案件移交時那你們是不是有掌握到底是哪些單位承接這第一點然後每一案是不是有實際負責人的資料這個是您這個部分可以提供還是我不知道在此的各部會哪一個部會能提供就是一個轉向機制我們相關資料也會提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16274.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16298.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好 那本席因為知道時間會有一些限制啦所以我今天也提了各個書面然後請書面的問題那請各部會如果是你的這個單位的職師就請給本席一個書面的回應 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請林國成委員林國成委員 林國成委員下一位請張雅玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16304.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16330.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
現在主席我們有請司法院副秘書長以及衛福部應該是現在是現在是誰現在是市長好 現在是市長好 委員吳安好 那首先我想要先針對就是在2022年的時候兒童權利公約第二次國家審查性的一個國際審查結論一信意見書裡面其實有建議台灣應該要參考兒童之家的一個模式建立兒童友善司法的一個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16331.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16353.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
但是在後續各部會進行回應的時候呢將相關的建議拆成了七個部分由警政署、法務部、衛福部、司法院各自依照自己的夜館範圍來進行但是呢當時為什麼會提出這樣子的一個建議我想負面應該也非常非常清楚其實就是希望讓兒童不要被重複的審問或是詢問對吧當時是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16359.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16366.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
那 可是呢 當時就是希望兒童不要遇到這樣子的一個問題但是我們這幾年也可以看見以這個最新的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16369.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16393.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個土城圍棋老師猥褻12名兒童的案件呢就凸顯了兒童還是重複的被詢問因為呢 最折磨人的地方就是光前端報案程序裡他向不同的窗口揭露案件共15次包括警方7次 醫院3次 社工3次 檢察官2次 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16395.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16400.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
這15次的陳述都是對這個受害者再度的傷害同時呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16402.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16423.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
民間展示協會近幾年來呢協助這些兒少性剝削被害人的經驗也發現現行的一些制度對他們相當的不友善除了重複詢問之外呢還沒有跟加害人有效隔離冗長訴訟的程序壓力導致他無法作證對他們造成身心的嚴重一個嚴重的影響那同時呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16426.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16455.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
因為每一次這個關鍵的詢問呢可能都會影響到這個案件的一個進行喔那可是我自己也有看見喔其實司法院在四月份的時候提出了一個司法週刊看到說為了落實CRC所建構的一個兒童基本權利及兒童最佳利益的原則你們卻盤點了法院的環境跟建設了一些相關的系統啦然後強化司法人員的一些知能跟優化審理的程序可是這樣子的事情還是發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16457.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16472.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
這樣的事情還是發生的那司法院表示說會增強家事服務的方式來協助兒上可是我們來看一下如果以家事服務的中心跟這個兒童之家的一個架構來相比的話其實服務對象跟運作上其實有非常非常明顯的一個差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16473.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16494.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
所以我想問一下就是說如果我們以現在司法院來說我們是不是有可能怎麼樣子的來做往這個兒童之家的方向來邁進呢因為這個才是真正自從國家國際的專家學者建議的一個方向認為這才是能夠真正的守護到兒童這個蜂蜜可不可以簡短回憶一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16495.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16519.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那個 謝謝委員存勳我想第一個先釐清的就是剛才的問題可能有一些層次不一樣的就是司法院在司法週刊中所宣示的就是我們的那個司法禁用的這一些措施呢那個是指說少年他進到了那個法院來之後的這些相關的這一些那個措施的優化那剛才委員所舉的對 應該這個東西還是沒有關係所舉的那個土層的那個案件那個事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16522.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16543.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
完全是發生在最前端就是沒有使用到那個法院來是更前面的時候事件一發生的時候有關於那個警政這個部分的那個詢問所以那個重複詢問的那個問題那是事實上是不一樣的那至於說這一個現在這一個這個爭點的部分我請我們的那個中廳長就是邵家的那個中廳長來回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16545.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16557.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
基本上應該這樣講我們是希望建立聯合司法訪談的制度也就是說因為兒童之駕的概念就是說我不管是警政我是社工我是調檢調全部都是在那一次都處理完 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16559.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16587.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
是 謝謝委員關於這一部分那麼我們一方面有建置司法詢問員司法詢問員來協助一次詢問那前端已經有設計有那個減少寵物陳述那如果是兒童被害人如何減少這些惡毒傷害那當然我國現在沒有建置類似剛剛說的國外兒童之家但是呢我們的家事服務中心其實已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16587.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16603.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
建制有這個所謂陪同社工跟開庭前的對兒童有更多的一個身心的協助讓他穩定減少一些傷害另外我們建制有非常溫馨的這些詢問室不會在那個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16605.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16625.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個法庭詢問那兒童詢問員再加上家事事件許多兒童要到法庭的話都有所謂的程序監理人程序監理人也選任進來那這些當然都是在建構減少兒童到法庭的傷害那至於將來是不是要朝著剛剛委員建議的這個兒童之家來建構我們會整體來構思跟一個一個研議以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16633.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16648.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我了解那我接下來就想要問一下衛福部就是說因為其實雖然說我們有設立了相關的應該說人員啦專業人員來協助但是事實上這件事情就是反覆的發生也代表是說我們現行的機制的確是有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16650.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16668.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
問題需要來去處理的那所以我想請教一下如果我們今天是如果從這個家暴防治法跟性侵害防治條性侵害犯罪防治法裡面我們可以看見說因為其實在這兩部法裡面都有相關要詢問受害人的一些條文可是我們可以看到我這裡在 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16669.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16692.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
把性侵害犯罪防治法裡面highlight的地方是他有特別針對於兒童的地方他有特別講可是家暴防治法現在是沒有提到相關的條文的所以我想詢問兩件事情我們是不是可以再做家暴防治法應該這樣講家暴防治法一定要去做一些修法來調整然後但是性侵害犯罪防治法也要做得更精細這個部分我們是有一些相關的修法規劃嗎目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16694.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16719.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
目前有嗎?非常感謝委員對於這個事情的追尋我先簡單回復一下剛剛委員所說我們現在目前有關這個部分是在有關性侵害犯罪防治法裡面已經有設計那至於就是說剛剛委員說要不要extend到有關家保這部分我跟委員報告我們現在目前正在修那個兒少全法兒少全法的部分我們現在正在考慮是不是可以在兒少全法裡面來做這個相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16719.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16745.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
耳燒選法是一定要做這個相關的規範啦但是我的意思是說在家暴防治法是不是也可以去把這個概念是因為耳燒選法是一個基本的架構但是在每個地方應該都還是要放進去不然我覺得現在狀況就是說如果你沒有放進去的話它很容易就漏掉了所以這個部分是不是可以一併的來去盤點在一起來盤點來做這件事情這個是不是容我們回去我們帶回去我們來研究一下好那你們帶回去研究一下在那個有關那個家庭暴力防治法是不是也可以融入這個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16745.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16771.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
好 那第二件事情 魏莎請魏福福來做的是說我們是不是可以針對這現在這兩個法裡面可能會處理到的案件我們可不可以先進行匡列先進行匡列呢 然後來去說這些東西是不是我們可以先來試辦兒童之家的一個這樣子的模式來進行呢因為這其實是對小孩來說非常痛苦的一個狀態關於這個部分我是不是可以請我們保護司司長來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16772.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16793.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
目前在這個兒童之家這樣的概念在性侵犯罪防治法已經有在縣市推所謂的一戰式服務那就在偵查階段偵查前這個階段是已經朝向這個目標但是包括審判這部分就涉及到司法院的權責那我想這個是一個國家政策應該一併考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16795.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16822.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
好那這樣聽起來就是說看起來是司法院跟衛福部要一起來討論嘛對不對是不是可以用這樣子的方式兒童之家的方式來一起整合各界的資源因為最重要還是要守護兒童嘛因為其實這些民間團體也有講到很多的小孩到最後就會覺得說天啊他太痛苦了他可能就放棄了那其實這不適當等於是他從頭到尾都是一個受害者而他的正義沒有辦法得到伸張 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16823.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16845.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
所以這部分是不是可以請司法院跟衛福部一起來研擬這個我們往這個建置兒童之家的相關的單位我們是不是可以研擬這樣子的方向那我們是不是可以兩個月之後再來追蹤進度呢可以嗎我們再跟那個司法院這邊就這個議題我們來研擬方案然後再提供給再回給委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16851.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16879.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 訊答結束那委員執行時要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關起訴送銷委員及本會委員您過程 林建啟所提書面質詢列入記錄康登公報並請相關機關已書面答覆本次會議議程所列事項均已處理完畢 現在散會 謝謝大家 |