| IVOD_ID |
16765 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16765 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-18T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-18T12:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:21:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd7536b190c0b7f68cad9f551ce5fa921f8b19dddded0b194fe3d805ab8b5a46cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男就「推動AI之產業發展政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 12:52:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1905.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1908.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
現在主席人數與主法庭人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1921.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1942.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第三會計交通委員會第15次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年6月11日713上午9時至下午1時42分地點本院紅樓201會議室出席委員李昆哲等15人立席委員林德福等18人立席官員交通部政務次長陳彥博等主席林昭吉委員國城報告四項 宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1944.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1972.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
決定議事錄確定討論事項審查道路交通管理處罰條例修正草案本日會議由委員林思明等說明提案要旨由交通部政務次長陳彥博等報告後藉由委員洪孟凱等24人提出質詢均經政務次長陳彥博及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一報告及詢答完畢二為林俊憲等三人所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報三委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1973.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2001.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
請交通部尽速书面答复四 讨论四项个案均另定其继续审查通过临时提案一项 散会宣读完毕好 先介绍我们在场的官员我们数位发展部我们的黄岳南部长林宜静次长蔡授权师长 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2004.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2021.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
任性建設師 牛信仁 師長資源管理師 曾文芳 師長數位政府師 王成敏 師長數位國際師 莊盈智 師長資料創新師 莊明芬 師長法制處 張學文 處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2034.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2061.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
蘇外產業署林俊秀署長資通安全署蔡福隆署長國家資通安全研究院林寅達院長電信技術中心江亮君副執行長台灣網路資訊中心黃勝雄董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2070.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2086.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
資策會蕭伯仁副執行長本日會議進行推動AI之產業發展政策的專題報告我們現在請蘇發部黃燕蘭部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2100.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2115.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席各位委員今天應邀列席交通委員會救蘇發部推動AI產業發展政策提出專題報告並就此向各位委員請意還請各位委員不吝視角 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2117.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2134.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
人工智慧正以前所未有的速度在發展並將深刻改變世界產業結構與社會的樣貌誰能夠在這一波AI技術的浪潮中脫穎而出就有機會在未來全球競爭中取得領先的地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2135.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2155.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
值得注意的是AI技術創新如同其他軟體科技領域其核心驅動力因來自民間企業的自由競爭與創新動能政府的角色不在於主導創新 因是打造環境透過政策手段協助建構一個支持AI產業健康發展的創新生態系 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2157.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2173.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
本報告說明書發布經過五大政策工具算力資料人才行銷資金推動台灣AI產業發展的整體策略在算力方面提供免費GPU算力資源在資料方面推動建置AI訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2177.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2203.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
語料資料庫在人才方面研擬AI人才指引跟認定標準在行銷方面持續舉辦AI產業交流及媒合會在資金方面啟動加強投資AI新創方案以五大政策工具建構一個適合AI產業發展的生態環境緊就速發布五大政策工具推動措施說明如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2204.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2232.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第一 算力的支持降低AI創新的門檻在算力方面為了協助AI新創團隊塑化部將提供免費GPU的算力資源於產品開發初期就能夠進行所謂Pro Concept的想法的驗證此舉可有效降低團隊的初期的設備投資風險加速創意轉化成可行性技術的方案的速度第二 資料開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2233.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2246.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
擴大模型訓練的資源在資料方面AI高度仰賴大量高品質的資料為強化台灣在主權AI的基礎速發部將持續推動機關擴大政府資料開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2250.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2277.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
並針對政府機關擁有著作權的資料優先由中央二級機關先行分階段釋出各機關擁有著作權的正體中文語料打造台灣主權AI訓練資料庫同時為擴大資料的開放共享再利用並提升資料可用性蘇發部參著國際資料治理的趨勢以嚴定促進資料創新利用發展條例草案並於2014年6月 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2279.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2303.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
持有日期草案預告60天充分收整齊各界的意見為資料利用建立法治基礎第三人才培育分層分裂強化人力基礎在人力方面蘇阿部正規劃與AI領域專業機構合作嚴尼AI人才認定指引規劃AI人才的培育目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2304.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2329.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
類別與課綱希望與政府學術與民間訓練機構的能量培養以下三類的AI人才第一個是使用AI工具的人才能夠運用AI工具提升產業生產力第二是開發AI模型的人才能夠利用現成的工具訓練AI模型第三個是研究AI的研發人才具備AI核心技術研發能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2331.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2345.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
然後再來第四個就是我們要在行銷媒合上來打造商業應用的舞台在行銷方面為加速AI產品市場化速發部將辦理一系列的AI媒合會如Demo Day |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2348.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2360.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
並積極參與大型展會以協助新創產業者擴展市場獲得訂單蘇發部認為企業最需要的是穩定而大量的市場訂單而會只依賴補助因此透過產業對接競爭機制的引導將促進產品品質的優化加速市場驗證與成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2371.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2388.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第五個是資金的投入加速擴張與規模化在資金方面為推動五大信賴產業中的AI產業發展蘇哈部提出加強AI新創實施方案並於113年8月獲得行政院國發基金同意核列新台幣100億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2390.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2408.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
投資期成為十年 七年投資 三年處分期此方案參考經濟不既有的專案投資模式結合致敬挹注與創投輔導專注支持已具備技術能力及初步市場驗證的AI新創團隊加速其規模化與商品化 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2413.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2436.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在推動產業轉型的過程中AI已逐漸成為關鍵驅動力AI的創新將改變全球經濟結構跟社會形態速發部將精進各項政策措施攜手產官學員各界齊心推動台灣為全球AI的發展重要樞紐以上報告敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康 萬事如意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2443.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2467.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
接著進行詢答 先宣告以下事項第一 詢答時間出席委員6分鐘 列席委員10分鐘委員發言登記於10點半截止各位委員如果有臨時提案 請於10點前提出 以便議事人員會診暫定休息時間10點半 休息10分鐘現在請登記第一位委員 洪孟楷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2480.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2483.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長請部長現在傳出說META美方有可能7月高層會來訪台可能要討論打詐議題是不是有這樣的事情其實我們跟META高層一直有保持密切聯絡那事實上我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2505.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2522.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
都有跟他們在開會那這個七月來這個事情我想大概是如果等到確定以後我們會正式宣布不過剛剛委員也提到就是確實我們最近對META的尤其是在打炸方面的努力我們是有嚴格檢查那我們也開始開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2524.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2542.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對 因為傳說 媒體報導說傳說擔心詐騙案連續被處罰那因為現在本席從一直我其實還是再一次強調你們自己的打在儀表板或說打詐的這個通報網站上面九成都是Meta不管是臉書 私訊 或者是IG都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2543.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2566.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那你們看到了這個九成的一個狀況然後現在內政部也移交了不管是過去有移交多少或是說現在我們還有得到資料說還有23件的廣告資訊揭露不全所以5月29號你們有再召集相關單位來開會嘛那現在看到說Meta還要陳述意見還要等待回覆還要邀集相關單位討論在是否裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2567.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2578.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
會不會覺得都是在慢半拍啊過去到現在已經多久了這個事情真的不是第一天發生打擊詐騙 大家的一個承諾 大家的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2581.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2601.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
詐騙部長對那所以就是說我們一切是有照程序在走就是說包括我們拿到這些案件我們一件一件的去檢視然後邀請檢調單位一起來審核這些資料然後要給Meta七天的所謂的申訴期所以這個都是程序走那走完的時候如果還是有問題我們一定開罰那目前是的確我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2602.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2611.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
如果說對於任何的行業我之前有講過部長你來我辦公室的時候我特別跟你提過就如同消防法規一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2612.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2638.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一個營業場所要營業消防一定很重要如果你的消防法規沒有符合的話我建議是開一次罰而且是累積開罰開罰到你改善為止我們是這樣沒錯但是對於Meta來講九成都是Meta這邊有詐騙廣告它廣告一年有收多少的收益光Meta廣告一年可以收多少收益這個資料我這邊沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2639.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2667.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你身為速發部長你沒有辦法了解或是說你沒有辦法聽到或是說掌握一下Meta它一年在台灣有多少廣告部長據媒體報導或是說相關大家去推算以Meta這樣子來看的話一年可能上百億都有可能那結果我們現在到目前為止好 即便不講Meta的廣告我們國人被詐騙多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2669.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2696.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
光5月份知不知道國人被詐騙多少錢87億又創高峰4月76億5月又暴升到87億又增加了14個百分點那換言之對比去年的狀況其實還是持續維持每個月幾十億的詐騙啊那我們現在說好開罰給你們不管是打詐是法打詐無法給你們的權利給你們公權利結果到最後開罰100萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2699.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2717.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
然後現在看到說Meta害怕連續開罰100萬都賣掉了然後第二件第三件還沒有現在還有23件那我們到底什麼時候會展現我們的公權力如果說他一直持續的放任你說給他7天的申訴期啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2718.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2747.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
民眾有沒有辦法跟詐騙集團講說你給我七天的這個鑑賞期民眾能不能講是說我被騙的錢七個小時可能都被騙光了不要七天啊那個我們那個我們說這個所謂這個詐騙的這個黃色條例是有些規範包括就是說比如說上架就是下架時間好那我再請教之前有講到是說只有售廣告的部分那Trace |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2748.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2773.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
也是Meta下面的一個平台那目前說Trace沒有辦法無法可管變成又變詐騙新聞廠那個Trace是最近才開始有廣告的這樣的一個功能他目前還沒有辦法投放廣告他現在是剛剛是那個我們請署長來 簡單說明一下因為上個禮拜講到的時候還講說因為Trace他沒有辦法投放廣告所以說他還不列我們的納管範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2776.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2792.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
來跟委員報告目前ZED有在考慮要上架廣告所以我們要等他考慮上架完廣告我們才能去開發他才能去規範他那如果說他現在以使用者的習性來講每一個平台都有不同的使用者習性 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2793.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2818.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以現在上面比較容易的是他有所謂的這個擴散紅利就他的這個擴散率會相對比較廣所以說他自然人他不用下廣告他就有擴散那我不管說擴散與否下廣告與否重點是他上面有沒有詐騙嘛有詐騙但是我們通知他會配合下架目前即使沒有法的時候因為我們跟Meta那邊的管道還是蠻暢通的所以這個部分他目前會配合下架好來再回來部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2823.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2834.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你們過去到現在都一直跟我們講會配合下架配合辦理但是我們一般民眾看到的是什麼就是在那上面廣告詐騙廣告還是層出不窮上來因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2838.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2856.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他可以持續變形 持續上廣告 持續的刊登訊息所以才會變成是詐騙猖獗嘛如果說源頭可以管理的話你認不認為詐騙相對來講會減少很多所以我們跟他們高層共同主要是要他們自律是 這也是過去到現在我們都一直強調的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2858.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2885.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你本來他們就應該有內部內機內控機制本來他們就應該有法律機制本來他們應該就要有審核機制怎麼會讓詐騙集團詐騙廣告上架之後才是變成是我們的人警察人員訴發部人員相關人員去搜尋看到還要拜託說請你趕快下架我們現在有沒有本末倒置啊中華民國政府是Meta下面的單位嗎那個第一個是我們要求實名制啦實名制至少可以讓這種詐騙集團這個減少詐騙的廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2888.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2905.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那這個我只請教一下啦Meta現在7月有可能傳說高層會來那不管怎麼樣現在還沒有證實你說如果說有它會到什麼樣的層級這個目前我們都還沒有確定是我們邀請的還是他們主動說要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2908.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2924.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
是在我們的要求之下Meta它一直有跟我們進行溝通那就如同偉榮剛剛講的事實上在Meta上面的詐騙它的那個生態事實上是三個階層的第一階層就是Meta上面會有一些使用者的帳號這些帳號會去開粉絲頁粉絲頁裡面會有詐騙的廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2928.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2951.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那因為我們不管是民眾或者是台灣的政府我們都只能看到下面兩層就是詐騙的廣告跟粉絲頁我們看不到他最上層的那個源頭的那個帳號的那個跟這個粉絲頁還有那個詐騙廣告的那個關係所以的確是我們過去打詐常常就是說我們一直在下架我們透過網站衝動查詢網一直把這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2952.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2978.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
看到的詐騙廣告一直下架但是還是會層出不窮所以我們這次就請那個META他們的高層來我們就是要討論這些議題我們希望META所以我們請META的高層來是好 部長那剛剛你跟我講說不知道 沒證實不是 那個就不確定他派什麼高層來不是 我們有做其實剛剛是次長嘛 是不是對次長上一次你也講錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2980.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2988.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
內政部警政署確實有通報嘛可是你跟我講是說原來是那一天恰恰好就那麼巧就我直選那一天那天下午才通報過來沒關係來我回來部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2993.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3020.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
過去這些東西都是我們講的我們看不到第二層消費者更看不到2350萬人都是被詐騙的對象我們看不到他的後面的出資者所以說才會要求說Meta你即便你要上架的時候你要收廣告費你就有審核的義務怎麼會廣告費是他們收然後結果他上了一個廣告廣告之後讓全台灣都變成是詐騙的被害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3021.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3034.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
然後結果我們的人還要幫忙他去海巡看到了有詐騙嫌疑的再通知他們說請他們下架其實這就本末倒置嘛那你現在已經講了速發布是邀請Meta高層來討論什麼議題討論怎麼討論以及說是不是不能讓他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3041.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3070.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
該開罰要開罰該處理要處理我們胡蘿蔔跟棒子都要一起使用這才是重點吧開罰我們繼續持續開罰那沒問題那我們現在要求高層來是是要跟他們講自律的機制就剛剛講最上層那個所謂的這些帳號的就是說那些帳號需要一些更好的管理這是我們會再進一步去要求但就是說這個工作我們持續進行那用開罰來讓Meta配合我們政府的政策這是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3070.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3084.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
一定會盡力去做本來就是啊我們2300億雖然你都是善良老百姓說實在話政府用法律來框架做最基本的要求大家不要犯法沒有例外國外公司來也一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3085.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3112.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
本席還是再次強調對勢不對人今天九成的廣告都在Meta上面所以他當然應該就是被我們主要的要求的對象我們會持續施壓Meta讓他配合台灣的我們的這個詐騙的這個政策部長我希望能夠相信你的話本席會持續追這個議題我們會要求源頭管理才能夠真真正正讓詐騙數下降這是國人所期待的我們也會繼續努力謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3125.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3138.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
請問各位委員對醫事錄有沒有意見沒有沒有意見的話我們醫事錄確定現在請李坤哲委員謝謝召委 請一下黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3145.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3170.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
部長好AI快速的發展其實我們心中有一個很沉重的隱憂就是AI快速的發展會對勞工現有的就業的安全以及環境會帶來很大的衝擊尤其是中低技能的勞工他的風險是更大幅的一個提升那相關的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3172.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3190.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
對這種就業型態他不只是被AI自動化的一個取代也面臨職業的一個重整的這樣的一個趨勢那OECD他們就指出2023年的就業展望他明確的指出在未來的10到15年 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3192.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3220.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
有14%的職業會消失因為AI自動化的一個提升另外有32%的這樣的一個比例的職業他面臨結構的一個重整那管理顧問公司麥肯錫他也指出未來全球因為AI自動化的這樣一個趨勢會有8億個工作機會會消失會被自動化來取代那 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3223.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3248.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
職業結構的這樣的一個重構啊造成勞工工作風險的一個增加那而且也可能導致就業機會的減少這是我們在追求AI啊自動化快速發展提升更進步科技的產業跟生活的時候面對勞工的這樣的一個困境啊數位部也必須要有相關的因應那 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3250.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3264.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們來看相關的這種AI對勞工生活的這樣的一個衝擊數位部有做基本的盤整嗎另外工作會被AI取代工作需要這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3266.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3294.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
重構或者是再設計的這樣的一個職業我們必須要提出針對性的一個相關的因應確保勞工在AI快速發展的時候有基本的工作權益受到保障來請部長簡單的說明一下報告委員這個就是我們也是我們所關心的議題所以我們在我們現在在草泥的這個AI基本法確實有強調以人為本就要特別注重這個勞工的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3296.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3323.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那這個將來我們會在基本法裡面去有一些指引讓這個將來的這個我們在這個就業市場上能夠不要因為AI的發展而嚴重影響到勞工的權益那當然這方面另外一邊就是我們也提供很多的訓練的一些program就是說不管是百工百業就算是勞工一樣要對怎麼樣利用AI來增加工作效率這件事情我們也會持續的去訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3326.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3339.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個將來的勞工也因為有這樣關係他能夠學到更好的技能在工作上吸入他這是部長一個基本的想法那我們來看AI的這種職場的應用必須要有基本的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3340.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3364.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
要避免歧視的跟不透明這樣一個狀況的一個發生那AI它不只是重塑相關工作的內容職務或者是它的一個任務它其實也成為勞工評估招募跟管理的一個工具這就涉及到就業的歧視勞工的隱私還有資訊的一個知情權 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3365.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3386.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那AI它現在是成為人力資源工具這是一個趨勢那演算法的一個篩選機制的不透明也會引發這種就業的歧視這就是說AI對就業歧視的這種放大的效應其實在全球的 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3387.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3415.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
案例中啊已經有非常多的案例像這個Amazon它使用一套AI的履歷的一個篩選工具那它結果它會自動降低啊女性申請人的這樣的一個排序因為在演算法當中啊它自動會學會啊高科技的這樣的不管是高科技產業或科技產業啊他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3417.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3444.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
入企的人數大部分都是男性為主所以這樣的一個演算法就會自動降低女性她們要去求職的一個排序那這些都是演算法對於社會既有的社會偏見它給予制度化隱形化甚至是規模化的一個結果那我建議是要借盡歐盟建立這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3446.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3460.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
高風險AI職場的應用清單就是說例如自動面試的篩選啊績效的評分系統啊要強制的事先的這樣的一個審查跟資訊的一個揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3461.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3477.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那這個部分另外就是說雇主對於要導入這種AI系統的時候也要對勞工進行相關的知情的同意的流程就是說明確告知相關的資料收集以及用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3478.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3499.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
決策參數等等項目來部長簡單說明一下這個委員的關心謝謝委員的建議這些也其實是我們的關心我們現在在發展AI同時我們也比較可信Trustworth AI就是可信任的AI那我們部裡面為了這個事情我們也做了一些工作包括我們有評測中心包括我們有一些檢測機制確定你用的AI模型要符合一些規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3501.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3522.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
當然我們這個AI的不當使用會造成歧視造成勞工的問題我們希望在將來的AI基本法能夠有一個比較明顯的規範部長你對勞工的保障AI的發展對勞工就業以及未來整個工作環境的衝擊的風險大幅提升了 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3523.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3552.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
必須要建立判斷就業衝擊的這種監測的制度那其實AI它取代了不只是重複性的這樣的一個體力工作它其實已經擴及到行政、人事、客服以及初階資料分析等等的白領階級也受到衝擊那我們目前的AI的政策的這樣的一個技術的政策的發展是以技術推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3553.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3569.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
還有算力的建置還有相關的就業應用為主但是AI的技術導入對於就業市場所造成的位移裁員或是結構性的風險缺乏系統性的一個統計監測跟應對的機制這個部分台灣的法律雖然已經規範企業在導入AI的技術之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3583.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3609.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
在解雇員工應該要依勞基法來針對業務性的性質變更或是不能勝任工作這個項目有舉證的義務跟程序的義務但是我還是要明確的指出政府目前還是沒有辦法去掌握AI導入引入裁員的總體趨勢跟影響的程度這個還沒有建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3610.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3614.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
另外也還沒有建立跨部門的人力的安置 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3615.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3640.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
另外就是沒有安排技能轉職的這樣的一個社會支撐的結構跟策略部長簡單說明一下你們有什麼因應剛剛有個委員講說關於這個這個人力就是我們有些訓練的機制那我們也會跟跨部委包括勞動部我們會在這個問題上再跟勞動部來好好的討論這是一個重要的一個進行的相關的重要工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3641.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3659.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我看我們台灣如果沒有如果是缺乏這種相關資料的通報制度來判斷員工是不是因為AI的引進而遭到裁員這會讓勞動市場的變化跟AI的導入之間的這種連動性處於一個政策的盲區這是我們所擔憂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3667.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3675.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那政府就沒有辦法及時的預警跟規劃這種職務的配套基層勞工也是處於這種資訊不對稱的這樣的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3679.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3699.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那蘇阿部啊應該要及早掌握相關的資料啦那避免在政策規劃上啊缺乏AI對勞工就業的因素的衝擊這種重要的關鍵另外蘇阿部也應該啊我要更明確的說蘇阿部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3700.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3719.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
要主導或是建議我們要建設一個跨部會的AI社會影響監測的平台來統整就業、教育還有勞動政策所需要的前瞻性的資料跟政策部長最後時間讓你說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3719.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3747.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
就是謝謝委員的建議像剛委員的建議我們會回去再去看怎麼樣進行那當然州裡面跨部會包括勞動部那應該也會跟經濟部有些有些合作所以我們再回去看怎麼去建立這樣一個機制好那AI的發展是一個重要的趨勢對產業的發展以及對勞工生活的一個衝擊蘇發部必須要更明確更前瞻的提出相關政策的一個規劃好謝謝委員長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3756.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3780.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我現在請林國成召委縣主席請黃部長請部長還有那個林署長蔡署長好一起請好委員長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3786.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3814.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
部長早我想今天排這個AI發展的這些種種的我們可以看得出來當然數位部成立也不久了那AI未來確實是一個國際的啟示所以我要請教我們部長你已經就任一年你對於數位部 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3815.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3826.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對於你們整個數位的發展包括AI你到底自己打幾分自己打幾分對 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3827.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3847.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那個因為我訂了幾個目標一個就是我們的不是啦 目標有啦常有在溝通你也有報告我說對於你這一年來當部長因為當初一期待我一直在鼓勵你你是產業而來的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3848.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3864.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以我們當然對你有所啟示啦那你自己門心自問自己對於數位部的這些業務你認為自己打幾分報告委員 委員問這問題我講實話啦那個事實上因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3869.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3884.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為很多工作我想做那因為今年預算被刪得太厲害所以我們預算都已經解凍該解凍的都解凍啦你們你還要那個我私底下都一直在鼓勵你你就做你的數位方向有些計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3885.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3913.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我想蘇財署最明顯蘇財署的很多推動AI的計畫就被Cancel因為經費不是被動是被刪所以這個工作當然就是說所以你要問我這個話言而講起來我給自己就是70分啦但因為有些工作原來想做沒辦法做所以我會覺得很可惜好啦你自己打70分嘛因為經費的關係70分雖然及格啦但是你的做人處事是70分以上啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3915.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3931.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
對於業務的推展我認為只有60分啦只有60分雖及格但是還要努力啦因為AI未來的問題啊不是我們想像中一直在講什麼這個預算預算的問題該動的就動啦該刪的就刪啦你們不是說要補那個追加預算那追加預算反對當然沒有意見只要有理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3943.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3967.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
只要是方向正確的基本上都會支持啊尤其我個人本身就非常支持啊甚至於我自己都還排你們那個解凍案啊所以我是覺得這樣啦未來AI的方向是國際歧視所以是有競爭力的是有競爭做比較的所以在這個部分我還是要勉勵部長啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3969.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3991.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
當然有些是政策的問題你有自然生但是AI的問題其實是沒有政策的問題就只有勇往直前所以我就跟你說你做人70分我承認但是業務是只有60分還要有待加強來來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3995.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4022.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們最近這個當然這個打詐的問題不能全部怪你們但是AI整個數位的設計你非得不能推卸責任也就是最近我們有公布六大的平台六大的平台但是我就覺得很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4024.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4038.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個也就是新興一年多的他擁有350萬的券這個平台而且為什麼六大平台都納管他有350萬為什麼不納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4044.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4061.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
原來是只有六個平台沒有錯那雖然這個今年他開始開放廣告版位所以我們已經在這個就在如果說剛講我們有個規範是說如果符合一定規模的廣告平台我們會把它納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4061.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4089.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那在納管之前我們是經過我們的這些跟Meta的管道看到詐騙廣告我們就要求他下架他目前都還有配合辦理但是我想剛剛委員建議這個平台要不要納管啊所以平台他有沒有違規是另外一回事因為他擁有350萬不能成為我們納管管理的缺口要不要納管要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4090.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4119.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
不是檢討啦要不要啦你檢討這個有什麼好檢討民意代表都發現了你們還在檢討那這樣什麼叫做管理所以我就常講你們的業務啊我還是民力部長你的業務迅速發現到有問題當然納管就要納管那為什麼這六大平台都要納管那為什麼獨卻他不納管如果我常想政治的話那是不是民進黨開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4120.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4139.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
當然不能這樣講嘛所以我們公務機關該納管就要納管 還要再考慮什麼來 署長你考慮的是什麼點 謝謝委員關心這個議題那在規模上他的確符合但因為他過去沒有上架廣告所以還沒有在我們兩邊之間所以你要講這樣我就要打槍你了喔我跟你講 他最近喔 最近喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4148.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4163.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
違規事件貧窮喔這種東西你們就要主動納管納管不代表就要開華納管只是讓他一個警惕說我政府有在管你喔你在做商業廣告詐騙廣告的時候你要嚴謹以待 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4168.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4196.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
只是這樣啊我沒有逼你一定要去給他開罰而是納管只是在監督納管只是讓他知道商業行為之後也要兼顧我數位部的有關法令不是這樣嗎是是我們會依照委員的我們其實是因為今年他上架廣告已經檢討檢討當中啦只是因為還沒發布信訴納管是是是好不好沒有錯你是政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4196.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4208.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我希望這個部分該納管的就要納管啊大家疑似同仁啊我法令所規定的你達到一定標準當然就一定要納管啊本來就是這樣啊為什麼獨落他呢欸 人家的百合其他這六家會說欸 他靠我了喔他不用納管喔欸 我去做個廣告喔欸 他那邊做廣告是不開罰的啊這裡做廣告要開罰當然全部人都要去跑去那裡做廣告啊這個廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4226.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4248.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
正常廣告我們拍手但是如果是詐騙廣告是非常嚴重的啊盡快納管 署長盡快納管 請求你們這些納管的機制盡快公告不能例外 那例外的話就是特檢好不好 來 接下來APP的問題App的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4252.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4273.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
真的判斷準確度不足我也希望兩位署長誰主管的誰盡快去因為我們是數位部是比任何一個任何一個單位是非常更積極的去針對這些APP這個問題那另外就是人工啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4275.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4292.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
打詐的AI人工審核這個問題也要盡快來解決啦不然我跟你說我給你這些意見都已經發現問題連我們不是主管業務的我們民意代表我們都看得出來的你們自己看不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4293.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4322.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
編制單位這麼多不停有時候我告訴你該積極的就要積極不要在那邊打轉我跟你講AI的問題面臨小問題就沒有辦法成為成為一個大方向你小問題不解決你大方向絕對做不來的嘛好不好最後我還是要勉勵部長因為時間的關係促進資料創新利用發展條例利益良善 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4323.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4330.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
利益良善這OK但是不要忘了你們人力應用的問題確實在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4334.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4360.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
民有其表 但是內容充實 但是執行不力柏定 我提供這些 不要讓我下次再來問這些草案是剛剛公布我們有60天的這個可以討論期 是啦是啦好 最後 我還要特別提醒部長不要忘了 媒體議價法 儘快 如果基金會有爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4361.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4379.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
可以只通過議價法這個部分我要拜託部長未來你還是要去面對所以這些本席跟本黨非常重視這些我也希望我們大家取得一個共識像我們的電信法很好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4380.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4397.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
三黨都有共識啊幫助打詐啊所以這個通過像昨天三獨通過這是很好啊任何一個跟AI有關的跟資訊有關的通通部長你這裡沒有辦法去逃避所以我建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4399.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4413.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這個議價法的部分要盡快走手去規劃你們的案子你們的你們的版本這樣的話才有辦法取得一個共識所以我還是希望以上這些希望部長能夠督促能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4415.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4444.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
盡速的把他這個出稿把他做出來這樣的話可能在整個審議上很簡單包含一下那個媒體叫我們現在是由行政院來文化部跟NCC所以我們希望有個院版啊這個還在討論中是啊院版盡速啦我的意思就是不管誰來主管數位部當然逃不掉嘛所以數位部啊公平會啊或等等這些所以我們就共同把它做好了好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4445.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4445.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
好 謝謝好 現在請陳書業委員謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4475.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4492.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
部長早安今天委員會是針對推動AI之產業發展政策邀請部長進行專題報告我們知道人工智慧AI產業的發展真的是日新月異而且速度非常的快 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4494.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4508.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那當然這個AI的一個運用可以讓我們生活在各方面方方面面都可以更加的一個便利那也讓我們的社會真的是造成很大的一個變革當然如果說稍微不慎的話也是會造成很大的一個負面的一個影響那我們就是看到在禮拜一就是在司法法制委員會那個黃國昌委員他就是拿了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4522.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4540.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
一個徵訊的錄音帶來進行這個質詢那當然最後他一直強調說那個是一個示範帶那可是這樣子的一個質詢事實上也引起了舉國嘩然那像我本席昨天在地方上拜訪的時候真的就是造成基層很大的一個討論了那有年輕的朋友告訴我他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4547.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4558.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
認為這個錄音帶是真的因為他們跟我說AI沒有辦法把這個人的情緒模仿的那麼真實所以他們認為那個是真的我不曉得部長那天的錄音帶你有聽嗎報告委員我沒有聽不過看到一些報導你有看到一些報導那事實上就是說針對這個英黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4570.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4577.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
如果是真的 那個真的就是非常嚴重的違法因為法庭的徵訊的應當是不能外流的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4578.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4604.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
那如果是假的我想這個也是更嚴重吧是不是部長如果用深層式AI製造假訊息或假的那個當然是不容許不過這件事情我想我們還是尊重法務部的調查再聲明看看因為這真假或是怎麼樣我這邊不清楚所以沒辦法給意見不過我個人是說對深層式AI的使用要我們要有些規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4605.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4628.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
包括製造假的影音或假的照片或假的影片來做一些散佈假訊息這是絕對不允許的絕對不允許所以以這樣子的一個質詢真的是一個非常大的不良示範這樣子的一個音檔他也一直在強調說那個是一個示範帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4630.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4655.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這樣子的質詢真的也是造成了社會大眾對於這個司法的一個信任這個信任度的一個破壞然後也破壞司法的一個公正性所以我覺得不管是真或假真的都是對我們司法都是一個很大的一個傷害那剛剛部長有說針對這個生成式的AI要有一些規範那我們也知道就是說AI基本法現在也要正式 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4656.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4671.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
正在進行討論當中那當然那天我們也就是在委員會就是聯席的會議後來也是就是要再擇期再審嘛所以針對這樣子的一個基本法那請教部長就是說你所謂的規範你覺得應該要怎樣來做一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4675.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4692.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
就是我們規範有幾個重點當然就剛剛講就是說這個有一些是跟風險相關的那剛剛講就用深圳市AI確實在很多應用上會製造一些風險包括剛剛講假訊息這個這也是一種風險所以我們先有這樣的規範對風險有一些然後風險規範之後分類完以後就由各個事業目的做機關機關根據他們的業務去做一些分級 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4702.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4723.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那所以有些東西比如說不能用生成式AI去做假的訊息這一定是在禁止對啊是絕對禁止啦所以這個我想是會從這邊去做一些要求法規去做要求但同時我們有一些機制比如說我們怎麼去判斷這個video是不是AI生成的在技術上有辦法判定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4723.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4748.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
現在有在發展這些技術正在發展對對 我們資安院都有在發展這個技術可是我覺得你正在發展速度是不是太慢了應該是要我們已經有一些成果但是這種東西就是準確率的問題我們希望能夠提高準確率但是這個技術的確是我們一個發展的重點所以我們確實有針對相片或是影音的那個所謂的這個真假用AI去做判讀這個技術在發展中 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4751.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4773.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
是因為我們也看到其實在2023年總統大選期間那個柯文哲也曾經就是遭這個神秘的英黨假冒他就是批評這個賴總統所以當時他也表示了他說世上惡劣的事太多了所以當時看起來他對這一種偽造這個用AI生成假英黨這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4775.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4791.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這種行為他也是覺得是一個非常惡劣的事情所以我們也希望就是說針對這樣子的一個就是說這樣子的一個生成假的語音的這樣的狀況我們應該要有一個就是制止的方式或者是防範或者是處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4792.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4795.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們希望可以全面同時來進行我們再回歸到詐騙的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4808.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4811.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這個深層式的AI真的是推陳出新也讓民眾防不勝防那我們也看到這個微軟它也有在一份報告裡面它有就是在這個網路威脅情報的研究報告裡面它也有提到就是說AI的出現降低了詐騙的技術門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4827.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4834.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
因為它可以運用在這個電商的詐騙網站啊求職面試的詐騙或者是技術支援的詐騙等等各方面那尤其是這個AI語音的生成就是我們剛剛討論的那個狀況那現在很多詐騙集團也就是用這個AI語音的生成來進行這個詐騙那這樣子的就是說詐騙集團在這種技術上 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4855.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4871.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
可以說是跟著上這個時代可是民眾在這方面好像還沒有辦法去因應那我們不曉得說在數位部這方面就是說有沒有什麼目前或者是未來有沒有什麼樣的一個方法可以來遏止 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4872.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4886.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這樣子的一個詐騙我們現在對這種這個尤其是廣告方面我們是有一些我們一些這個工具可以每天去網路上去去做掃描 搜尋去搜尋 掃描那每天可以找到五千到一萬個類似這樣的一個詐騙廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4888.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4907.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那當然技術上我剛剛講可以再更進進但我們也是用AI去做這樣判斷另外一個我們有要求這個廣告商如果要用AI生成是AI製造的廣告的那個影片必須註明這是AI生成不能就是說這是我們的這個一些這個這個要求所以就是說讓民眾知道說你看到廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4908.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4932.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
不是說不能用生成AI去做廣告而是說你要看到廣告這個影片是來自生成AI必須要註明那所以我們當然從法規面從官方去要求另外從技術面我們可以去判斷這個廣告是不是AI或是這個任何的這樣的訊息是不是由AI生成但是當然就是說這個東西還在還不是100%的準確不過我們是持續在努力讓技術發展能夠更成熟 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4933.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4948.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是那就是剛剛部長提到就是說用AI生成的廣告要註明那這方面我們只是就是要求那沒有入法就是說會入法嗎還是這個有入法大紀議防範那個條例裡面已經入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4949.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4968.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
要從那方面去入法啦好那就是說因為我們也知道真的這個科技的進步是日新月異那目前詐騙集團也透過利用這個AI更新他們的詐騙手法所以我們也希望就是速發部未來應該要善用也要結合這個AI的各方面的一個研發來進行這個打詐好謝謝主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4984.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4997.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 現在我們請林軍憲委員好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們速發部黃部長請部長部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5007.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5034.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
部長 我剛聽到你在回應就是針對近日民眾黨黨主席黃國昌在司法法治委員會播放一個不知真假不知道怎麼來的假的 不知真假的一個錄音檔我有聽你在回答你對這個錄音檔的一個看法這個錄音檔其實內容主要就是影射司法在破壞柯文哲 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5035.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5052.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那它的過程其實就是檢察官在問案那很明顯的就是刻意這個誤導社會大眾如果你不知道這個引帶是怎麼來的你聽了以後你絕對會造成一種重大的誤解和錯誤的聯想 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5054.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5067.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
會損害到檢察官依法行使職權的信賴和威信可能更可能會干預到審判中的具體案件嚴重破壞到民眾對司法的信任感你有看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5069.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5094.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
對 這個報告委員 我還是講就是說因為真假這邊我完全尊重法務部的但是我要告訴你黃國昌並沒有告訴我們這個引帶是他到現在還沒有說這是真或假的他也沒有跟你說是不是AI形成的他只說這是一個示範帶 你知道吧但這極可能啦 極可能就用 反正就用現代科技去模擬製程的啦那我再提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5096.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5125.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
行政院 7月15號用院版的 基本上應該是我們數學部主筆的所謂的AI基本法你就要送出來了那類似黃國昌的這種行為那在AI基本法裡面就是未來面對AI生成的工具來偽造混淆視聽甚至成為政治操作工具的那麼在我們的AI基本法裡面有沒有辦法做有效的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5126.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5145.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們第一個就是AI基本法有一個很重要就是說就AI的風險分類風險分完以後我們會就是下一個就是各目的世界主管機關會根據這個分類去訂定所謂分級那分級就會叫做禁止使用那我相信在很多地方這個用假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5146.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5171.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
AI生成去做一些這種假的訊息的散播應該是在進展行列就是說基本法它只是訂出一個概要啦那後來他們會各主管單位訂出它的作用法那我們希望在作用法的時候要針對這種盡是真實但具有誤導性的AI內容還有介入的義務啊這個要納入明確的規範就是說你在生產我再提一個例子給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5172.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5201.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
民眾黨自己有提一個人工智慧發展及管理條例草案這是黃國昌黨主席民眾黨自己提的在民眾黨的這個法案裡面第29條民眾黨自己寫AI使用者啊就是必須揭露其內容細菌人工智障使資訊接受者要知道這個內容並非真實以避免詐欺的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5203.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5226.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以啊 這就雙標的政客啦 雙標的政黨 為什麼逼他雙標民眾黨自己立的法 就是說你這種AI用現代科技製作的東西 你拿出來的時候 你就要告訴告訴受者 就接受的人 說我這個是並非真實的 是AI製作的 就是法律規範的義務啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5228.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5253.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
而且就是說在民眾黨自己的法條第二之九條寫得很清楚所以部長你的看法呢這個就是我剛剛講跟委員講就是我們在作用法必須對哪一些東西禁止使用那像這種用深圳市AI來做這種詐欺或欺騙的行為應該都是在禁止的行列那當然禁止啦那我現在跟你舉例就是說在民眾黨自己定的法條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5254.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5280.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
他這個所謂的人工智慧發展及管理條例的草案他自己寫的就是說一般社會觀念啊很容易你就被認為是真實的那麼你提供這樣的產品或服務的自然人或法人或等等就是說你應該揭露你拿錯的時候你就要揭露這個內容物是人為的生成或製造我現在念的都是民眾黨的法條的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5282.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5305.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
結果民眾黨黨主席自己違法違背自己立法的精神雙標黨 雙標政客在這裡就看得很清楚了再來做一個比較我們國科會的預告版本應該就是你們跨部會提出來的人AI基本法草案其實我們第九條有寫到就是剛剛部長你提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5306.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5330.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
容易造成利益衝突啦 偏差啦 其實我廣告不實資訊誤導或造假等問題而違反相關的法律情勢 這個都應該禁止是不是這樣對 就剛剛講的就是沒有錯 就是只要是牽涉到欺騙 就不實的這個訊息都應該要在不能用AI來產生這種訊息 所以應該要禁止剛好就是民眾黨黨主席黃國昌就給我們示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5332.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5357.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
示範什麼叫做用AI用能工的技術來造成資訊的誤導或造假他剛好就親自來示範一個什麼叫做違法以及我們為什麼要訂出相關的法令來制止像黃國昌這種行為這是他在那次質詢的唯一對社會正面意義就更加證明我們需要這樣的一個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5359.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5381.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
來 另外喔 剛你在答詢的時候你有提到啊那我們政府最近準備跟Meta要來談嘛現在在台灣最嚴重的詐欺案都在Meta上面發生了其實本來也是受害者啦我之前也有報警 也有請我們事務部協助啦就是 為這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5384.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5411.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這是利用我的個人人像所製造 偽造 圖卡假造圖卡散播不實的訊息那其實在過去司法部的統計主要詐騙的三個類型還是一樣都是金融投資身份冒充 產品服務等等過去部長曾經說你未來會成立一個假訊息委員會由NGO來主導這樣的一個協助事實查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5420.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5436.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那你現在這個所謂的假訊息協會就是剛剛講說一個NGO嘛就是說這個訊息的真假的判斷應該是由一個所謂的這樣的一個公正團體來做判斷那這是我的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5438.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5461.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個目前就是就是如何推動這個還在規劃中不過的確啦就是說真假訊息的判斷確實不宜由這個因為你是部長你自己講出來的嘛所以我們現在的假訊息會交由比如說像我們現在他們有幾個NGO團體嘛像就是我們的這些麥克風目前我們對於網路上的新聞無法可管這個問題要先解決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5468.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5481.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個才是根本嘛 你用一個委員會 其實你這個委員會怎麼裁恐怕也許會有不同的爭議嘛你很難做到說大家都接受嘛所以這個基本上還是我們那個法律訂定的一個問題嘛是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5486.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5502.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為時間的問題啦好 部長那這個這外面打炸啦我們希望大家一起齊心努力好不好 這個已經成為大概啊民怨最 民怨最 最民怨巨大啦大家最痛恨的一個事情啦好 我們結束外部交流好 謝謝 謝謝委員建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5514.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5542.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 接下來我們請召委許志杰委員來質詢謝謝主席 我們請部長好 我們請部長好 委員好 部長好剛聽了很多打詐 很多詐騙真的是對你們來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5543.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5570.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
無孔不入啦但是如何去防範其實真的是需要很大的智慧那我這邊也提出一個問題就是像很多跨國旅遊平台這些沒有落地的那個所長那現在有一些有落地有一些沒落地那大部分都沒落地 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5571.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5588.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那如果台灣人民遇到這一種也是詐騙那我們有沒有辦法從平台上面去著手這個委員這個原則上如果沒有落地的平台確實在我們法規上納管是一個問題不過這個我們請那個署長是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5594.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5624.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那謝謝委員關心這個議題那目前Google已經承諾在國外投放的在YouTube上的廣告如果是有涉及到對台灣的詐騙權他們也會下架所以在國外的投放在Google上的廣告Google現在有配合台灣的打詐專法去做一些處理那這一部分另外的是屬於這個網址的部分我們這邊也有DNSRPD的機制如果是可以來依法辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5626.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5652.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
就是說與法沒有辦法處理但是我們有從不同機制上去處理這樣的那個詐騙廣告我是希望說書畫部可能要更主動更積極啦因為這個包括消費糾紛包括不法廣告包括違規商品包括有損國格的情勢這個我們如果都沒有主動去 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5655.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5683.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
尋找 那有時候可能被壓迫了很久都不知道我們看上個月那一個OTA 那一個還有掛上中華民國的國旗然後再來還有那個hotels.com那個都有中華民國的國旗那像下一張那個trip.com跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5686.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5711.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
像這個好像直接就需要你如果填到國家就要填中國台灣報告委員這個旅遊平台很多所以我是覺得說如果有一些平台有這樣的立場我們應該是讓民眾知道我們可以選擇不要用這樣的平台就是這個從消費上可以去去進行不過這個就是說我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5713.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5733.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
主要它不牽涉到詐欺我們原則上是比較沒有辦法去管理但是如果有像這樣的問題我覺得是可以因為不是只有一家可以選擇所以我相信我們民眾可以自己判斷如果這個真的是覺得要我們填所以這個其實我希望書法部能夠更主動一點因為民眾判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5735.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5763.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
都用騙子的錢都用騙子的錢來判斷就不會有啦用騙子的錢就判斷說這是詐騙啦這個我們也會同時跟江部觀光署聯絡像這種平台怎麼管理或者怎麼去怎麼處理我們會去跟他們再討論不過就是說這個東西我剛開始講就是說如果要我們填中國台灣才能夠去做這個網站做一些教育的話我覺得民眾可以選擇不要當然啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5764.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5792.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那個我是這樣建立啦就是說西融數化部等於說不管是跟財政部跟經濟部跟交通部等相關部會有關係的那我們現在一個是考慮到落地跟沒落地的問題一個是考慮到不同的部會的問題一個是考慮到這個跨國平台它的大跟小的問題當然你說所有死的你沒辦法都去 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5794.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5822.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
關會中啦 坦白講啦 這個真的我剛剛一開始就講這個是無孔不入你們也很難處理但是針對比較大的比較知名的平台我想可能你們應該書畫部這個都可以去了解啦好 我們去了解那比較知名的平台這些如果說有涉及到就是以上我說的這一些問題的話那是不是也可以主動跟相關部會聯繫怎麼樣去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5823.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5834.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
比較好一點的管理啦沒有辦法100%我知道啦但是總是說我們有一點主動因為你比如說財政部、經濟部、交通部他們沒有主動去訴求這個問題那一般來講就是跟網路詐騙有關係大家一想到就是司法部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5840.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5859.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個我們會在尤其是剛剛講的旅遊平台我們會再跟交通部去討論這個希望說蘇花鋪可以主動一些那另外剛剛您在報告的時候提到這個促進資料發展條例事實上這個是院版的嘛對不對草案你們什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5861.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5889.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那個上次我們在那個那個聯席會議的時候我有講就是我們在7月15以前會提出我們部的版本那包括AI基本法對啊那個基本法是一個框架那框架裡面就有個資料的治理那這資料裡面就會有更多的細節這個資料這個剛剛委員這邊講的資料利用所以這是一起思考的嘛對不對一起思考你要有AI基本法你要有促進資料創新利用發展條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5889.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5916.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
條例已經公告 這草案公告了那在兩天前公告了所以這同時在進行所以7月15號的時候 AI基本法的草案我們會提出來 行政院會有行政院的版本出來是部的版本 因為院還要院通過所以部的版本好 那個時候我想我們再爭取啦既然主管單位是我們事務發布提出來的行政院版本嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5916.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5930.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
是不是有機會 應該還是要回到正規的我們交通委員會這個我想我們需要跟不同黨派的再溝通啦不要用自己的角度 我們還是要看主管機關是誰嘛這個我們到時候再來溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5931.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5958.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
好那希望說那個部長堅持我們AI的基本法以及AI的基本產業創新要怎麼樣去發展希望蘇發部能夠擔起重責大任在議黨在問的時候也要告訴他們這個問題是蘇發部主責嘛所以這個部分我們必須講清楚說明白讓社會大眾也可以去攻斷說到底是這個要擺在教委會還是擺在教委會我想這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5959.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5968.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
需要部長能夠秉持那個院部的原則能夠大聲的向社會講出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5987.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5989.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
謝謝 我們現在請徐富奎委員謝謝主席 有請黃部長請部長徐委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6010.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6027.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
部長早部長我想這個AI發展的環境跟資源的呈現高度集中在雙北跟特定的一個科學園區我想這個是我們曾維南部的立委的一個擔心的一個地方部長那我們數位部 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6027.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6050.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
也一直在強調政府的角色在於打造環境而非主導創新那目前包含這個GPU的平台AI創新基地甚至這個新創輔導計畫啊巨大多數還是集中在北區這樣的資源分配會讓我們這個南部的一個業者面臨這個資源的取得跟缺乏一個研發合作場域的一個困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6051.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6076.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
請教部長 正在這樣的一個狀況我們有做一個南部甚至一個偏鄉的一個算力的一個資源延伸的一個計畫嗎報告委員 我們現在南部有大矽谷計畫上是有包括從嘉義往南到屏東所以那個整個園區是會是這樣一個很重要的AI的產業園區所以我們AI的發展不會只有在北部那會有報案在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6078.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6105.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
包含在大溪谷這個計畫裡面對對對就是我們有個那個那個南部有個這個就大溪谷大南方的大溪谷計畫那個包括屏東在裡面部長我想聽到您講這句話我想我們業者會比較安心一點那但是這個部分也希望我們數位部能夠持續跟我們相關包含國客人這些能夠不要遭傷害其中又忘了我們這一塊就又偏向到其他的部分我覺得這樣對我們就不是很公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6106.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6125.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那另外數位部在推動台灣主權AI的訓練語料庫的部分我想這是對本土語言模型有一個很重要的一個意義那但是因為目前我們的語料的一個來源偏重在一個中央政府的文書會造成一個語境的侷限甚至地區的一個偏誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6126.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6154.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那請教部長我們未來是不是有計畫在研議加入原住民的族語、客語甚至一些農漁業的一個產業術語的一個計畫謝謝委員的關心跟建議的確的那個主權AI裡面最重要的就是資料那資料庫也是將來我們在立AI基本法的時候一個很重要的一個資料治理部分這邊是由我們資料創新師師長可以再做一些補充好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6155.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6160.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
有關於AI訓練語料庫,我們有很多豐富的語境像是文化、歷史、地理、動植物這些東西我們近期也在研擬語料庫的一個行動計畫其實我們已經在這個月就會開始找各部會來盤點他們的一些重要的語料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6177.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6194.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那盤點完之後呢再搭配我們的這個AI語料的這個授權條款就可以來對外做釋出所以剛剛委員所提到這些不管是客委原名這些相關的一些語言的這些資料我們也會納進來這個語料庫裡面這個大概什麼時候可以做一個比較具體的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6195.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6218.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
目前我們現在先做一些基本的訓練那未來大概兩三個月內我們目前也在同時併進建制這個系統那所以我們一邊建制系統一邊也跟這個部會來共同開會告訴他們說要怎麼樣來進行這個資料的一個盤點那最後呢我們就是併進之後呢我們預期是在兩三個月的時候就可以把這樣子的一個第一階段的這個語料先做一個釋出 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6220.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6243.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
大概是這樣那未來會有一個所謂的一個語料倫理審查機制跟一個屏幕的風險通報機制嗎會有這樣的一個規劃嗎目前這個還沒有在還沒有在設計但是我們現在第一個階段就是先充實這個語料而且先從那個政府機關先做起因為其實政府機關其實他擁有豐富的一些語料那我們希望先從這一步來做著手好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6246.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6269.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
副長我想我們前陣子就是我們卓院長也到屏東主持了我們這個屏東科學園區主要是台積電供應鏈的一個動土的一個典禮然後我想這個也是我們對屏東的發展我們大家都很高興的一件事情那但是我們也擔心所謂的一個AI人才培訓的一個那當天當然我們有包含屏東大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6269.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6294.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
屏東科技大學有相關的大學院校的校長也都在現場那當然我們院長跟國科會主委也有特別提到未來會結合地方做一個在地教學在地的一個資源整合的一個計畫那不曉得數位部這邊有沒有跟我們對報告委員我們現在人才培育剛剛分成第一個是三個層級嘛就是怎麼用然後怎麼去開發那怎麼做研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6295.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6319.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那這裡面在訓練上我們又分成好幾個等級最基本是從高中高職開始那我們高中高職開始我們就有一些所謂的實戰讓學生去接觸甚至到工廠實習然後來做訓練我們過去有訓練幾千個人所以這個高中高職我們的確有在納入我們的訓練的program所以這部分我們今年也會持續加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6320.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6339.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那會持續在這方面但是剛才講說從高中到大學到這個就職都有這樣的訓練就是我們一貫化的一個培育過程從高中入學大學生剛畢業或是到就職的這些這個AI的人才培育我們都有這樣不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6340.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6369.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
部長我想這個很重要啦我們希望我們這個年輕人不要都中飄北飄尤其能夠我們在屏東能夠在地就業能夠在地能夠照顧我們家裡的長者小孩子我想這個暗居樂業打造希望城市就是我們努力的目標啦我們會朝這個努力那未來是不是有計畫在增訂一個地方型的AI教育資源中心甚至地方AI教師的一個增能的計畫這部分有沒有做這樣的一個規劃AI教育中心目前有嗎目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6369.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6394.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
目前是還沒有這可不可以納入一個研議我們可能跟教育部還有經濟部再來討論一下對好那我想部長我們現在推動一個加強投資AI的新創方案那透過國發基金有10年100億的一個計畫我想這是一個很好的一個方向但是因為涉及這個是一個我們這個國家的一個資源的投入那我們也要求應該有更嚴謹的一個選案標準風險評估跟資訊公開的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6399.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6421.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
部長 那這個投資方案是不是會公布這個授投團隊的一個名單跟年度的績效當然會 這個目前都在進行中 那就是這個細節是不是那個署長說一下我們會徵選大派投資人目前已經徵選創投已經10家了那這一梯次接下來可能會又徵選10幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6425.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6441.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所以我們希望更多的創投民間資金由國發軍來引導來投入AI的新創我覺得這樣子公司和協力會比較能夠促成這件事我們都樂觀其人但是我們還是要提醒我們速發部這個我想我們在野黨也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6442.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6457.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
用顯微鏡來檢視你們後續的這些作為尤其這個外部評審技術跟商業可行的一個審查機制一定要完備至於是不是要加入民間的一個評鑑跟風險管理的制度這部分我想應該做一個比較謹慎的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6458.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6477.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那最後我想我們還是期待部長剛剛提到的這個未來AI國家級的算力中心我們也支持我們屏東這個土地也好水電的資源我想都很豐富也適合可以做這樣一個產業的一個發展那未來也請事務部來大力支持讓我們屏東來發展啦謝謝好謝謝 謝謝委員等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6488.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6512.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
葛如君離開了還是那個兩位等一下那個邱若驊蔡其昌葛如君那個諮詢完休息10分鐘好現在請邱若驊 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6521.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6523.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好 謝謝主席 主席有請速發部黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6531.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6557.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
委員好部長早部長好因為11日的時候教育委員會有針對AI基本法提出審查那超越立委針對主管機關的歸屬他我們都存有一億嘛那民進黨立委認為應該由訴發部主責那本黨立委包含本席都認為是應該由國科會主責那今天希望藉由與部長的詢答那進一步討論還有零七訴發部對於主管權責還有態度還有定位的問題那部長您知道台灣AI行動計畫嗎他的七七年份是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6559.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6579.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
他的七七年份您知道嗎你說AI行動計畫對 台灣AI行動計畫對 那個我們就是剛剛講就關於這個組織的部會第一個我給意見就是那個因為很多推動工作因為國科會 沒關係部長我先請教您就是台灣AI行動計畫他的七七年份七七年份應該是從今年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6590.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6599.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
而且他起薪年份是從2018到2021部長如果接下來這個全責單位是在速發部你應該更要了解喔那當事的計畫他的主責機關是誰您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6601.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6619.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
2018的12組織機關是那時候蘇發部還沒成立那時候還沒有成立沒有錯嗎那接下來如果蘇發部要發展AI的話您應該也要知道當時的組織機關是科技部還有就是現在的國科會那部長請問這份國家級AI發展計畫當時提出了您知道提出了幾個主軸方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6622.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6646.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個也不清楚 沒關係 總共有五大主軸包括AI的人才衝刺 我們可以看到還有領航推動經過國際AI創新樞紐場域還有法規開放 還有產業AI化我們可以看到從人才到產業到研發法規到國際的接軌那是當時國家整體AI發展的重要基礎部長這份計畫執行了四年那您知道它的行動計畫具體成效有哪一些嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6647.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6674.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
到2018到2023嘛這個這個2023到2025是AI行動計畫的2.0所以它有一些的確有一些部長我們來看到關於人才方面科技部他針對AI人才養成大概有4300名科技基因他培訓超過了33000名AI的應用人才那我們可以看到企業Microsoft在2018年8月在台成立AI研發中心那Synopsys他在2020年2月他也 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6675.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6696.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
宣布成立新竹AI設計中心跟AI on chip示範計畫共同建構的AI晶片設計平台部長再一步請教您,您認為要成功發展AI需要具備哪些關鍵的要素剛剛瑋瑜講到第一個因素當然是人才嘛那再來就是資金嘛然後再來就是一些我們的這個剛剛講一些政策的協助那其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6698.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6709.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那所以這部分就是我們在努力那其中還有包括演算法還有它的模組架構還有必須要有強大的硬體設備那部長這沒有錯吧強大的硬體設備那我們有這個超級電腦嗎速發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6713.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6740.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們塑化部第一個就是現在AI不是用超級電腦現在AI是用所謂的GPU嘛那我們塑化部的確有自己建的40片的GPU給微中小企業來使用這個是在做AI講第一個就是你有GPU那GPU其實跟過去講的超級電腦是不大一樣的東西所以我這個目前我們在做AI的運算裡面大部分要的是GPU所以部長你是說沒有超級電腦也沒關係嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6742.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6769.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
不同的應用 不同的應用但是我的意思是說在很多我們現在看到訓練的modelAI的訓練model那請教部長如果速發部沒有就是這樣的基礎設施還有技術體還有這樣的技術嘛那未來將來如果速發部要組織AI基本法的時候那要如何從根本去支持這項國家級的研發這個我們在這個基本法其實只是一個框架並沒有說要這到時候再定所謂的這個作用法的時候才會去討論這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6769.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6798.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
所以到時候才會討論所以你是說國科會他會主導AI科研然後速發部是負責應用監理嗎就是報告委員就是說其實AI基本法有個很重要的幾個元素一個就是風險管理一個是資料治理那這兩個工作都在速發部所以因為這樣關係所以行政院才認為這個AI的基本法推動是由速發部主導請教部長那速發部要如何監理您一個本身沒有辦法深入了解然後沒有辦法主導設計沒有基礎架構的集成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6803.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6827.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
跟委員說明一下關於那個超級電腦的事情因為超級電腦事實上在這個學術界跟產業界以前都是指的都是由CPU為base的那個高速運算的電腦但是現在AI使用的是GPU並不是CPU如果接下來AI的技術它快速演進的話那出現技術外力還有演算法的風險速發部要如何來面對這樣資料安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6827.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6838.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
跟委員說明一下其實現在AI使用的是類神經網路類神經網路其實它的智慧的來源其實並不是來自研算你們有沒有足夠的AI模型原理還有風險架構還有資料來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6843.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6863.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
AI模型原理這個是屬於那個先進的研發那這個主要是在那個教育部還有國科會主責的這個在研發還有那個在學校機構大學裡面會做這方面的研發那我們速發部主要負責的是產業是AI的產業並不是AI的技術研發那這一次就是要這次有沒有跟產業合作有沒有跟產業討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6865.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6883.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們就是很多program都是在跟產業這個剛剛講就是不管是補助啊或投資啊這些都有所以還有政策就是引導所以的確發展AI在上層就剛剛講有三種人才嘛一種就是研發人才那一種是所謂的開發人才一種就是使用人才那 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6884.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6909.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
主要在這個開發跟使用能產都在速發部所以就是說國科會或者教育部主要是在上面的這個研發是因為我們今天討論的是發展AI嘛那速發部現在有沒有具備像是OpenAI GoogleDeepMind或是Meta類似技術的背景團這樣的技術團專業發展AI是個跨部會的合作那我們現在回到講的是說AI基本法在推動的時候誰來推動比較適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6909.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6931.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那塑化部有跨部會的整合能力嗎我們有跟我們就是當然就是我們在行政院裡面有經過剛剛講就是經過這個副院長或是政委的主持還有跟國科會我們都有密切討論那當然就是說這個剛剛還是講就是說因為AI基本化的幾個精神主要是資料治理跟風險的管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6931.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6960.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那這個部分的工作是行政院是由組織是由數化部來組織所以因為這個關係所以才會把AI基本法放在數化部來處理這是基本原則但是AI基本法是一個框架下面很多作用法還是要各個部位去制定是 部長到時候7月15號的時候我們會提出一個版本對 會參考我們現在也總共有14個委員版本我們現在的工作就是把14個委員版本歸納以後成為一個大家都能夠接受的版本OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6971.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6998.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
謝謝我們現在請蔡其昌副院長謝謝主席 請黃部長請部長部長早部長上一次在質詢台上面本席關切的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7001.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7005.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
111啊我們現在民眾啊 收到簡訊只要簡訊前面的號碼出現111 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7008.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7035.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
本來過去我們都講那個是絕對是不是詐騙那後來呢我們就開始發現這個移動移動基地台 蓋台然後111就變成不一定是真的對不對那我看了一下你們有最近又公布了一個記者會應該是回應我說要趕快把這問題解決嘛那現在的方式是怎麼樣是111再加後面再加你的三個碼的就是說蓋台沒辦法產生後面這三個碼對 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7037.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7066.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
11在家收到的那一個人的三個碼對 後面三個碼好 只有這個是真的對 所以你會看到11然後在家自己的電話號碼後面三個碼有這樣才會證明也就是這個這種方式讓剛剛講的這21蓋台的這些假的基地站沒辦法產生這個後面這三個碼所以它只能出現111它最多最多出現11但是因為就不會是有後面這三個碼所以讓民眾更能夠判斷這個訊息是真是假好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7067.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7072.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
現在目前收到 如果還單純收到111除了2G的簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7073.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7098.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
主要是2G蓋台啦 就是3G是已經沒有了所以2G的手機 有大部分手機喔那系統有沒有關係 系統那Android跟iOS系統iOS的2G我的了解像新的iPhone大概都收不到2G的訊號那舊的Android系統還是有人會收到2G的訊號所以這個蓋台的時候不是每個人都看得到有一部分舊的手機會看到好 那換言之 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7099.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7127.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
部長那現在所有的人你只要用111加號碼就好了就不要再用111了就不會 而且未來不會只有111簡單講就是不要再用111就不會有111有些是真有些是假所以現在我的建議就是只要就不要再用111這個簡訊不要用就不用沒有看的問題以後就是111加你個人的號碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7128.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7148.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
後三嘛對後三嘛不要再發111啦對就沒有就不要看到11就要懷疑對啦看11是詐11有可能詐騙可以用啦但我的意思是說真實的絕對不是詐騙譬如說政府機關發的沒有那個111的這樣可不可以那個細節有請那個市長報告市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7151.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7170.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
是 報告委員剛才講那個說法可能稍微再調整一下就是說第一個就是還是會看到111這個號碼發出來簡訊只是簡訊內容的一剛開頭會把民眾那個手機的陌生碼帶進去所以他看到還是11號碼只是內容簡訊內容會有一個這個手機陌生碼那就是以後只要宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7173.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7199.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
簡訊的內容的一開頭一定是111加你的陌生碼絕對是真對在訊息的開頭對不對這樣子嘛宣導就宣導這樣子就不要再管111是真是假的就直接要看簡訊的內容的開頭還是要有自己的陌生碼所以我的意思是說你看你們開完記者會我看一下新聞我還是有一點模糊所以表示這個宣導還是有一點問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7202.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7227.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以要怎麼樣更簡單的告訴大家絕對是真的那你就要直接告訴大家說很簡單不管你的抬頭看到什麼只要簡訊內容的起頭有111加你的電話的陌生碼一定為真是這樣嗎還是不對好來你看看我講那麼久還是不對這個讓委員誤解了這其實它是兩個步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7228.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7257.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
第一個步驟你還是要看到是111這個號碼發來的簡訊第二個步驟才是看簡訊內容的一剛開頭會有三碼你自己的電話號碼的末三碼那樣子所以它是兩個步驟並不是簡訊內容裡面的開頭是111加上末三碼並不是這樣子它其實是兩個步驟的好那你可以直接這樣宣導啦但我還是覺得我的疑問就是除了這個宣導我剛剛有誤解嗎宣導是 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7259.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7284.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
AND不是ALL就兩個一定要有先看到11再加簡訊內容那我接著請問那換言之111是可以造假的因為蓋台對蓋台嘛不管他什麼辦法111看到也可能是詐騙那下面的11加你手機每一個人個人手機的墨3這個可不可以造假 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7285.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7306.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
後面墨山碼是沒辦法抄假的因為那個蓋台那個假的記憶站不知道你的手機就是他沒辦法去好那如果我前面不要出現111但我的簡訊內容出現111加你手機的墨山碼他有沒有可能是假的這個如果不是111就都要懷疑我的意思說簡訊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7308.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7331.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
第一行你簡訊內容的第一行是111加你手機的墨三碼這也可能是假的簡訊因為這個可以造假最主要是前面就是依依這個一定要後面才是你的那個我懂你所以兩個都要啦那你們趕快照這樣的方向宣導我們要宣導否則的話這個就是你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7333.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7353.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
你們記者會都開完了 立法院我還是搞不大懂所以我今天特別把它詢問清楚 是因為這個對反詐都很重要 沒錯 謝謝委員建議第二個 這個我看了一下你們的反詐的一個就是那個查詢網 網路詐騙通報查詢網部長這幾月開始上線 正式 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7360.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7376.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們正式上線是5月15所以大概一個月部長現在目前這一個查詢網下載量是多少1萬8你們對於一個月只有1萬多下載滿意嗎或者正常嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7383.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7403.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這個我們當然是希望能夠我們現在因為剛上架嘛我們會擴大宣傳那當然我們是希望越多人下載越好所以這個我們還需要再多宣傳這樣的一個部長 除了宣傳之外它其實我的感覺是這樣啦這都是消費市場的概念譬如說我看了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7404.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7428.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
警政服務警政服務這個APP下載超過100萬次台灣大哥大的這個反詐戰警超過10萬然後這個Who's Call超過5000萬然後中華網安助手這中華電信的超過5萬部長你有沒有研究過這些APP跟你的APP的差異是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7431.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7456.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那個第一點不知道委員就是說他們這些APP都已經有一段時間了時間嘛 時間是一個所以我們因為正式上架是5月15嘛所以我想我們再努力以後我們當然希望越多人下載越好這個我們會再去宣傳那目標當然是希望能夠能夠有更多民眾就是這邊有講嘛就是像我們反詐戰警或者是警政部都超過10萬嘛我想這是我們下一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7457.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7483.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
部長我的意思是這樣啦我當然我希望我猜的不對啦我希望我接下來發言人猜不對我們下一個月在這裡我認為你還是差不多差距不了太遠這個數字差距不了太遠我的感覺是這樣那我的邏輯很簡單我覺得就是說市場嘛就我們政府沒有從市場的角度來看就是簡單講當你這個APP非常好用的時候啊你不用宣傳大家會幫你宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7485.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7507.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他的傳播大家會不斷的告訴他的親友你要下載這個老人家不會下載我會回家找我媽媽幫他的手機下載好為什麼 太好用了所以關鍵就是你的東西內容是什麼那我為什麼問你其他的其實我的意思就是說譬如說我舉例這裡面搞不好有些是要收費的 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7509.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7531.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
對不對 有些是要收費的我們的不用嘛有人 我剛剛念的一大堆APP有可能是要收費嘛譬如說Who's Call可能要收費我不知道那個反詐戰警要不要收費聽說也要 台哥大的那個APP那它的收費的服務內容我們可不可以做得到譬如說我舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7537.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7555.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
反詐戰警他來電的時候他會告訴你你現在打來這個電話可能撒騙或者可能是銀行的推銷他會直接在你電話響的同時他就提醒你嘛那部長他們的data哪裡來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7557.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7576.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
台灣大哥大的data為什麼他知道這一個手機的號碼是有疑慮或者這個手機號碼他直接告訴你這個是某某銀行的客服或者某某銀行的推銷的銷售員打來的他的data來自哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7577.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7596.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個電信公司本來在客戶上就有些客戶資料那他如果他知道這個是詐騙他是不是來自政府他的後端的data譬如說他確定這個是詐騙他那個是資料是來自165我們的也是來自政府各單位嘛我們的APP我們的APP在判 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7598.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7627.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們第一個我們這個我們有些是自己掃描就AI去掃描的嘛然後有一些是也是來自親自是來自民眾的通報另外就是也有跟165警政署有些合作對對對所以部長我簡單講因為時間的關係結論就是說處發部應該把這些每一個單位他到底他的APP為什麼會大家覺得好用那因為我們是政府嘛我們是打詐的最前線 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7628.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7657.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們代表的是這個國家的力量在處理詐騙所以我們要想盡各種可能無論叫AI去掃無論是民眾檢舉無論來自警政署無論來自速發部的什麼檢舉的什麼東西反正只要這個國家裡面對方可以取得的我們一定可以取得就是這些好用APP可以取得的DATA速發部哪一個不可以取得你告訴我我不相信啦你是打詐罪前線你代表國家在打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7658.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7682.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那所以你的APP邏輯上應該是全世界全台灣最好用的APP不過我有一個可能稍微要說明一下像警政署很多資料是已經是確定是詐騙那我們處理的是還不確定是詐騙的時候一個通報所以在這個時候你現在不懂你們是一個檢舉網站我也沒有關係啦就是你的功能應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7683.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7701.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
不確定我也可以查詢對現在目的是這樣做然後做好最好到你確定的事情當我的電話來的時候他直接就告訴我如果我們剛剛講就是但確定了我們沒問題我們會直接通報不不不我的意思是說為什麼你不可以做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7704.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7725.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
詐騙電話來你們確定這個是詐騙電話的時候為什麼你不可以直接向其他APP的功能可以順便提醒我這個電話有疑慮如果我們那個網頁當民眾檢舉過的那個網址確定是詐騙下一個質詢的時候詢問的時候我們就跟他說這是詐騙你是下一個被動詢問你但是在第一次發生的時候因為這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7727.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7736.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我們分兩塊一塊就是你的app讓人家檢舉第二個就是你們主動提醒所有全台灣人說這個電話有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7741.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7770.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那個我們主要是網站嘛主動提醒這個那個因為我們現在那個網站通報查詢網跟那個剛剛委員講到那些電話處理的是不一樣我們處理的是網址不是處理是電話那電話是會有個來電方那來電方因為沒辦法把那個電話馬上給封鎖所以他們就是會提用提醒民眾的方法那我們的方法呢是直接就是叫Meta說那個有問題的沒有問題直接把它下架了你們有公權力可以執行後段啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7771.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7796.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
我的意思是說 你的網站要好用齁這些民間的功能為什麼它可以下載到 譬如說Who's Call為什麼可以下載五千萬次我只是要你們腦筋去想一想說人家是怎麼做的 為什麼大家都要把它下載還要複製耶 為什麼我現在要打架 我自己還要複製也有很多人要複製 因為我數字它有五千萬下載嘛 壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7799.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7817.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
為什麼我們速發部不來問問說我們開發這個網站跟市場怎麼競爭為什麼他可以那他的功能是什麼那他的data有可能就是來自政府部門嘛所以我剛剛講過哪一個部門的data你們取獲取不了分兩塊一塊是現有我知道這一群這個就是可疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7817.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7845.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
第二個就是我還不知道等著大家來檢舉你們現在一直在跟我講等著大家來檢舉的部分我的意思是要你們處理檢舉也應該讓大家檢舉現有的你也可以提醒大家這就是你就是全台灣打詐的的貪投保急先鋒你拿政府的預算在做這些事情你為什麼不開發一個讓人家下載全台灣你根本不用宣傳嘛我每一個人都會幫你宣傳因為你太好用了打詐太有效了 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7846.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7870.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
為什麼這個委員的建議我們再回去再跟這些他們做法再研究但是我跟你講就是說我們現在是看到詐騙網站我們就要他下載根本民眾不希望民眾再看這個我沒問題嘛你讓他下載我檢舉了你發現對你就讓他下載這因為你有公權力嘛其他人不可以叫他下載是因為其他人沒公權力但其他人為什麼會那麼多人願意下載他的APP |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7870.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7894.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們再去 你不做這個 不然你相信我啦我們幾個月之後坐在這裡 我們還在講說 怎麼還在一兩萬我們再看看這些 部長你懂我的意思我們再回去 我是提醒你們可以這樣做 應該要這樣做這樣的不用開記者會宣傳你的APP啦 全台灣的人都主動每個人增香下載你的APP 好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7907.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7923.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
好謝謝我們現在請葛如君委員好謝謝主席有請速發部黃燕南部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7930.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7958.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 謝謝部長我想支持蔡奇商委員剛剛的說法打造通茶網把負擔加注在民眾身上部會應該還是要多努力透過一些新的技術同時我有幾個問題想問剛剛有提到現在用的GPU就不叫超級電腦但你們速發部的官網上面直接就寫了超級電腦訓練出所有的語言模型中略打算加上台灣本地的資料去做到台灣的引擎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7959.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7979.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
所以是你們速發部網站寫錯了還是你們剛剛其實在糊弄別人啊用GPU集成的電腦就不叫超級電腦嗎這是你們速發部公網自己寫的喔教證一下超級電腦的定義其實就是擁有超級算力的電腦管它CPU GPU你們不要突然在質詢台上面突然發明跟產業界不一樣的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7979.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8002.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
不好意思如果你們不去更正你們速發部官網上的東西不用再跟我解釋了有沒有人要更正沒有更正就更正剛剛的說法我剛才想要跟那個邱若驊委員所解釋的就是如同我們部長所講的因為超級電腦是一個比較模糊的概念那就泛用文詞不需要在質詢台上面去確定跟學界不一樣的東西好 謝謝要精準我們開始變精準我覺得這個資訊圈的人真的會覺得很難過我再問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8008.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8010.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
請問CA信任憑證跟自動安全有沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8011.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8036.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那個CA是剛講就是跟資通安全有沒有關係如果你需要一些加密的那個訊息有受效經過CA拿到憑證對嘛所以跟資安有關嘛TWCA你們請大家換憑證的網頁官網上前兩句就講了如果有好的信任憑證可以阻絕駭客入侵不會有這種資安的疑慮所以CA跟資安有沒有關請教速發部長當然有關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8041.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8068.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這不用解釋啊所以我想請教昨天傍晚的時候中華電信新任董事長我們知道他很努力啦他昨天講了兩個他說CA出問題跟資安無關第二個他說這一次中華電信新任憑證出了問題影響維護其為請問部長你對這兩個說法有沒有意見我們認不認同兩個問題第一個CA跟資安無關中華電信董事長說的你作為資安的最高指導機關有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8069.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8090.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他的CA是說8月以後他再發新的憑證不能發可是既有的憑證還是可以用那你如果憑證出了問題跟治安有沒有關嘛他的憑證沒有出問題是發憑證出問題發憑證出問題是說他8月1號以後不能發新的憑證我們現在不是在玩文字校正遊戲CA信任憑證就是跟治安有關你剛剛已經說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8091.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8108.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
CA本身能不能發平所以亂發跟治安有沒有關亂發當然所以我覺得這樣我理解啦我理解部長的意思啦在某一個特定語境之下可以無關沒有關係這個大家自有公平那自通安全我們剛剛講到影響為無其為你認不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8111.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8129.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這次的這個信任憑證的事件影響為乎其為 董事長說的認不認同我們剛剛講我們在早先就已經有雙憑證機制所以呢中華電信如果不能再發信任憑證所以您認同為乎其為影響為乎其為政府單位幾乎沒有影響那業者就算啦你們是電商的產業指導單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8132.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8155.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
業者我們有督促 剛剛委員有建議我們也跟中華電信討論過業者的 剛剛講過去發的憑證還是有效以後不能拿新憑證 但是要換新憑證的時候中華電信要負責幫業者換新憑證如果要有收費 中華電信要匯出好 趕快積極處理那這個我覺得還是有很多問題我們之後再討論 因為時間有限那我想今天謝謝昭偉安排的這個題目啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8156.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8170.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那我們看到剛剛我在這個經濟委員會質詢國發會主委完全不知道AI基本法現在在哪裡請問AI基本法是不是還在行政院裡面對吧我說院版嘛院版是不是還在行政院對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8172.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8195.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
就我們國發會完全不知道啊他不知道你你也不知道他為什麼呢因為他推出AI新十大建設的說法的時候完全沒有速發部的角色你們怎麼在互相邊緣化他的新聞稿裡面沒提到所以有沒有參與如果我無謂的話可以說明一下AI新十大建設速發部有沒有參與負責哪些部分非常重要的部分我們十大建設裡面我們組織了兩個建設然後協辦六個建設所有參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8200.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8218.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
OK那根據國發會主委的說法行政院預計六月就會核定那請問部長我們沒有一個上位的基本法很可能彼此會有漢格啊請問一下行政院有沒有機會預計在六月份我們早一點啊不然他AI新十大建設都要推出去建了結果我們沒有AI基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8219.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8242.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
這個讓AI新十大建設與法有據嗎有沒有機會行政院早一點6月算出院版的AI基本法草案我們那個AI的這個產業的推動在過去兩年都已經在進展那當然就是說基本法主要是管理所以我剛講就是說在十大建設裡面我們包括有些建設像建立算力這東西事實上這可以並行並沒有說一定要希望先出來做產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8242.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8265.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
部長你剛剛講出你的心裡話啦AI基本法其實不是只是要管理而已您剛剛一直也都說它是一個基本框架它又要發展又要資料治理結果您內心深處講出你的心裡話是管理沒有關係啦我們還是等你們的版本出來那我想請教部長講到AI基本法現行11部基本法當中有沒有內容有提到行政院的任務編組的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8266.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8295.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有沒有行政院這個大部分的基本法都沒有那有沒有嘛有幾個有但是答案都已經出來了啦其實就這幾個都有所以能不能支持我們依法要設立任務編組啊我們第17條第7條有設立人工智慧業務的跨部會協調組織有委員會啊其實這是可以的嘛對不對有機會支持吧這個我們等院這必須是要報院要同意就是說這不是我能決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8297.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8304.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
好沒關係那我請教部長你可以決定當然你可以提出建議那速發部115年預計編列多少預算推行AI相關的業務115年對因為現在正在編現在正在你編對不對那預計你編多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8313.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8328.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我們那個預算部分現在因為剛剛講有這個AI的這個十大建設目前是希望能夠編列一百六十加碼一百六十億一百六十億在速發部這邊做AI的過去是多少你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8330.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8357.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
過去哇暴增20倍以上過去我們問過啊速發部跟數位產業AI產業數位都納進來不是AI是5億多這個當然啦我想也許我們算法不同也許你們有AI的這個這個資安預防等等但這個這個相增增減相關的報告請給我們那想問一下部長是不是知道11部基本法裡面有沒有做確保預算的相關條文因為你推AI基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8357.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8382.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
各部會要做這個所謂的作用法 您剛剛也提了大家需不需要一些預算現有的基本法當中有沒有做預算確保的條文有還是沒有有一些有 對有嘛 其實我們都幫你找好了啦文化基本法還甚至保障專款專用海洋基本法也做這個相關的預算一定要必要措施 還要寬列喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8382.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8405.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以我想是不是部長您可不可以建議院長還有行政院來支持我們第11條草案裡面要放入確保預算的條文啊有沒有機會來支持一下因為沒有預算各個部會怎麼來推進呢那個委員很多建議我們謝謝委員支持啦我想這個委員在這個AI基本法確實有很多的建議跟想法都很好那我們會剛剛講這個布版的時候會考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8408.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8430.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那布版因為現在這個院版一直卡在行政院那布版現在好像現在又拉回來還要修改嗎現在到底是在院還是布啊因為您一下子說院嘛可是現在布又還沒辦法提出我們現在是說院因為要院大院通過這個需要沒有沒有我說的是行政院現在到底是您的版本速發布的版本現在是停在行政院還是又拉回來修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8432.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8458.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
原來的那個版本是國科會草案的版本嘛那我們現在是要所以你們從來沒有送過一份過去從來沒有我們就是把原來的國科會草案那個版本原則上是不然那個請那個市長我跟委員說明喔大概就是國科會他預告的版本行政院交給書畫部主政之後我們大概有開了兩次的會所以我們大概有修正部分的條文現在就在行政院的校文的審理中這樣在行政院嘛所以現在是卡在行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8459.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8477.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為這一點我想所有的委員教文委員會還有交通委員會包含召委我們都非常關心所以您又提到說那速發部要7月15號以前才能將布版整理出來可是這剛剛很奇怪您說您的版本已經送到行政院了那為什麼現在布版不能早一點提供給我們看呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8478.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8497.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
因為現在是行政院那到7月15號以前我們還是要努力我們現在我們那天在委員會教育交通聯席我們只是要布板喔欸為什麼布板您都可以給行政院了現在其實已經可以提出來了啊對啊所以7月15號以前我們當然會提出好所以您現在有抓7月15號以前嘛對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8498.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8519.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好7月15號以前我希望啦書發部可以預定照你們的想法也承諾了7月15號要如期完成這個佈板提供給教育及教章兩個委員會審查使用這一點沒有改變嘛對不對沒有改變好那最後借主席一點點時間剛剛有提到很多打詐的議題其實近期有非常多的陳情這個虛擬這個貨幣或數位資產的產業有非常多的KOL |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8526.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8551.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
突然遭到大幅度的下架其實很多人都只是在做知識的推廣這個我覺得那他們是不明不白的沒有任何的沒有任何的理由那相關的這個平台呢有說好像跟速發部說不定是有什麼樣的關係所以這一點我希望請部長了解一下虛擬貨幣或者是數位資產不是全部都是妖魔如果照這樣的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8552.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8577.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
只要有問題就來砍就說他詐欺那這樣我想美國在推動比特幣穩定比特幣的法案穩定幣的法案都會落入你們的這個評估標準這樣很奇怪我們接受通報我們是跟金管會就報給金管會那這個決定應該是金管會決定好所以我想相關的這個橫向剝剝通不要讓民眾其實有一些新興的產業他們是做正規的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8578.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8588.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那不小心誤殺到正規的事這過去抒發部或者是相關部會已經有過類似的例子希望這種誤殺的方式不要再出現好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8617.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8617.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8649.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8649.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
謝謝觀看 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8664.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8664.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8703.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8705.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8728.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8729.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這裏面就有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9313.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9335.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
現在開始開會請大家回座我們請劉淑冰委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9349.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9351.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
有請黃部長陳部長好 部長好那根據有一個雜誌數位時代它在今年的五月份它報導指出來有越來越多的台灣年輕人他們是選擇和AI機器人聊天那進行的是自助式的一個心理輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9376.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9393.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那最重要的原因是因為心理的門診難約費用很高算了一下大概一次就要兩千到三千元可是呢如果是選擇這樣一個AI機器人AI這個APP來做的話呢他一個月三千兩百塊錢而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9395.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9402.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那年輕族群寧願把這個情緒焦慮交給這樣一個APP而不願意尋求專業上面的一個心理的諮商但是有很大的風險是在於說AI不懂人心不具備判斷自殺的這個傾向能力也無法負責任的轉介所以我想要請問的部長的是這樣的結合心理醫療療癒的跟AI的新興服務呢政府是不是有一個這樣的一個監管的討論已經在進行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9423.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9445.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
對我們那個本來就講說AI有它的風險嘛就是其中一個風險那我們這個框架的做法就是說我們先把這個分類就是它有哪些可能的風險講出來然後像這個就是衛福部他們可能要去定分級就是哪些AI應用所以你們有跟衛福部在做分工討論對對對這個就將來在作用法裡面衛福部會去對這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9446.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9464.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
就是說哪些服務醫療服務或什麼可以用AI做這要衛護部去制定那剛剛講就那個因為剛剛講風險管理以外另外就是我們要做一些評測啦那評測我們可以幫忙就是評測好那這樣一個問題就是包括甚至就有這個監測嘛對不對就是未來就評測評估再測量對不對就這個部分評估就是說它的風險的我們要評估它風險的那個等級啊這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9472.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9474.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那這部分是我剛才也聽到部長您在講就是速發部是負責AI產業的部分對不對還有AI的風險管理嘛對吧您講過了那這個部分的時候特別要想詢問的是說這個高風險的AI的這個分檢分類架構您過去在教文委員會也談過這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9492.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9515.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那這部分可是在目前的在藍跟綠的AI的基本法當中他們都只有一條在做內容的詳盡相關而已這部分那你們是不是可以再做詳細的這個更多的說一個架構你們是要用行政命令的部分做一個架構呈現出來嗎沒有辦法在一個在基本法當中呈現出來它的不同的分類的一個大概制的一個分類嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9516.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9538.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那個報委員這個這個所謂的AI基本法是一個框架框架的目的是把這些就是說要注意的事情先講清楚只是說自己怎麼執行就後面有一個叫作用法那作用法就要把這個東西講就是要把它define出來所以要定義出來所以我們目前的分工是這樣就是這個框架部分由我們部裡面來制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9539.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9555.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我建議您在我們因為在民眾黨的AI發展跟管理條例當中其實有特別是專章的這部分有在提到這些部分我想這一部分請你就是可以好好的就是說做參考一些部分包括像是不是可以採取歐盟的這樣的風險分類機制委員民眾版本比較細比較像作用法這個我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9560.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9574.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
但是架構的部分我想應該可以給你做一個這個審訟的方法我想這個就是到時候我們希望在我們在這個立院審查的時候大家會有共識而且全國應該有一次的一個標準雖然的高風險的情況在適用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9575.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9595.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
農業部或是交通部甚至在衛福部的標準其實是一樣的但是同樣的規則這才是衛福部就是副發部最重要做的責任但是他們不同的標準同樣的標準但是做分類的方式由各個部會去進行才是重要的比如說我們在分級如果到後面的各部會去做分級的時候哪一些應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9595.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9618.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以是會有一個統一的標準但是各個各隊去對應嘛對不對各個會根據他的業務的關係我剛剛講的心理諮商是要列為哪一級就衛務部去決定這樣好那我們今天剛來的時候也聽到很多的執政黨的委員他針對這個禮拜的時候在黃國昌委員在司法法治委員會當中針對的他有播放一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9620.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9625.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
檢察官的一個 檢察官在偵訊當中的一個陰檔他後來有宣稱說這是一個示範的這個陰檔啊這部分然後呢因為執政黨的議委員他們特別強調是說呢如果是屬於這樣身衛的啊這些部分啊甚至是在有 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9636.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9655.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
語言互動的AI 像剛剛有說的聊天機器人或是有情緒生物特徵等等辨識的部分都應該要把它放在都應該把它在事前就是應該要做一個告知這個動作對不對要標示 要告知對的 那這個部分民眾黨的版本也特別強調說在我們的27條到29條當中特別強調說像剛才說到的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9660.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9682.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
揭露他的真實性的來源 情勢識別跟DEFACT這種身為部分呢通通都要有標示義務 這部分部長是不是可以承諾這部分事實上應該真的把他拉進來這個就是說我們在後面討論基本法的時候當然會列入考慮不過就是說這個基本法 只考慮而已啊剛才這麼多執政黨委員都說應該要加進去了耶不是 剛剛委員你們講這個東西事實上在打詐釋法就已經入法了 所以這個還 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9687.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9714.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
可能這個基本法還不需要去管到這邊的法律但是我是想說這個基本法還是一個框架那所以框架我們也只用了兩個就是說你事實上我們剛剛所說的只要幾個字而已大概不到一個十個字就可以在一條條你就把它衝上去了只要你要揭露它的真實性你用身為這些部分或者是有涉及到人生物特徵的這種情緒的部分都應該揭示這個是一個人工的要把它揭示去才就可以第一關就保護到人民啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9716.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9741.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們現在正在融合各個委員的版本我們有14個版本然後會產生的部版那這個當然會在我們的討論之中好 我們這邊也要特別的呼籲民眾黨的版本是AI發展與管理條例這部分呢 其實它有它的必要性現在尤其是我們正在運用的這個階段部長你也說到的 現在我們是對於產業發展跟運用是由你們來主導對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9744.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9767.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
產業發展是很多部位主導但是現在但是你們在AI的部分AI的也是好幾個部位主導但是我們在一些像軟體啦 支付啦這些就是我是說您自己在說產業你早上剛剛講的AI的產業的發展跟運用是速發部主導對吧那個我們負責很大一塊啦但是這是跨部會合作的結果這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9768.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9769.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們這邊就是要呼籲既然執政黨都已經強力的在監督在野黨那我們也發現到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9786.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9810.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這些部分的確是有要把像這種什麼身為的情緒情緒相關的這些部分只要是有人為部分必須要把它強力強起來說那我們就呼籲執政黨就一起來支持我們的在未來在7月15號在審議人工基本法人工智慧基本法或者是說包括像我們一個整體的人工的智慧的發展跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9811.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9826.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
發展跟管理條例的時候能夠把這個經驗把這樣的一個立法的精神把它放在一起來來加入到加入到說把這樣的一部基本法把它弄好那這邊的話也呼籲到執政黨就是要來起義來歸這部分現在你們都重視到這邊的身衛技術的使用事實上會造成危害特別的就要把那個出處的使用的方式把它標明出來那這部分呢就一起來讓這樣的民眾黨的版本能夠把它能夠送出到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9839.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9845.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
至少精神上面能夠在基本法當中呈現出來來共創這個盛舉好 那就這樣子 謝謝謝謝委員長 謝謝部長好 謝謝 我們請黃建豪委員好 謝謝主席 主席我們請黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9873.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9893.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
部長好 我想上週我們有在教育委員會跟教論委員會聯席的時候本來預計要來審查討論我們AI基本法的一些框架跟權責當然看來不管是三黨也好或是我們朝野之間大家對這件事情沒有共識包含說可能世界各國對這事情也沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9894.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9914.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那沒關係既然時間多出來了我想你們預計說是要在兩個多月7月15號提出相關的版本然後想我們就利用今天機會做個簡單的討論就是說第一個是說到底就我個人來說就我本人的立場來講我當然認為我這樣目前為止我還是覺得說AI基本法這種框架的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9915.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9931.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
如果是要研發 如果是要數據這部分應該是由國科會來主導我個人是這麼覺得那到底蘇貝布的責任在哪裡就是我試著用那個ChangeBTR我這張圖是用ChangeBTR畫出來就是一些討論我問AI 我問他 我問這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9933.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9957.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
比如說你覺得我們中央各部會 各自應該針對這個AI的相關法令你應該負責什麼樣的功能 你會希望怎麼劃分他大概把我歸類這些東西 包含說制裁權是經濟部 那這個經濟環境監測是環境部等等等等然後這個文化三層式的這個內容 這個由文化部來處理然後機管會負責金融科技管理等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9959.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9979.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
數位部他講的其實在這個確診筆裡面我相信你回去自己試用看看就知道他對於國科會跟數位發展部在AI治理上的分工我覺得連他自己說AI本身他不知道怎麼去做明確的分工我做這樣這樣的一個有趣的實驗那我今天也是會提出來跟部長他討論說 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9981.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9995.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
部長未來到底數位發展部對整個AI的治理上面你們到底是要著重在產業端著重在執行端還是要著重在所謂現在討論的AI基本法這種上二原則你們對數位部的定位到底在哪裡這個事情上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9996.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10022.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
工作就是剛剛講那個框架那個精神精神裡面剛剛講就是以人為本就是我們不希望AI的去影響到我們人類不管是價值觀或者是我們的權利等等等或安全所以這個是一個那從這個框架之下就有幾個工作要做主要還是管理面因為AI的發展你不用去不用去立法它都在發展現在立法的目的是希望管理那管理分兩部分一部分就是風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10023.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10048.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以要把風險稍微講清楚什麼風險我們要注意那再來就是所謂的資料治理因為剛剛講這個委員像你現在出來這些資料這些圖一定是當初訓練的資料有關所以資料如果是偏頗出來的結果就是偏頗那所以就是說重點是你資料我也給他什麼資料來做訓練所以資料治理很重要這會影響到AI的正確性所以就是說這個就是我們在風險這個在這個AI基本法裡面要去討論但是還是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10051.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10073.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
因為百工百業都需要AI所以每一個產業它的要求跟它的需求是不一樣所以我們才會講說先把框架弄出來跟你講你要注意什麼然後再由各個目的世界主管機關比如說衛武衛福交通有交通然後各式各樣像金融金融他們就要根據他們的需求去define它後面的作用法 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10074.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10096.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
確實就是說因為作用法是要等其實我講真的我們那時候大家上禮拜會想討論的原因是因為作用法要出來之前要一個上位的基本法出來嘛那今天問題在於說我先要想跟部長請教說到底在你們的這個主管的業務裡面AI基本法這個上位到底是由國科會去做相關的研發整合比較適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10097.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10113.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
還是我們的基本法的未來是要走產業發展數位轉型才能應用的這件事情我想行政院當初分工給我們說有幾個考量因為我剛剛講基本法在這裡面現在講的比較還是在兩個重點一個就風險管理跟資料治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10114.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10129.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那這個工作目前因為行政院在這個之前就把這兩項工作交給書畫部來來來主責所以才根據這個分工認為說這個AI基本法應該由我們來主導好這樣我知道你的立場了但是我還是要表達一下我的立場因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10130.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10147.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
剛剛部長你也說是在這個治理跟後續的這個數據等等的這對我來講它比較像作用啦就是我個人是這麼認定我們想像中在討論這一切開始討論去年AI開始發展的過程裡面大家對於AI基本法的理解包含我自己在內我不知道其他人怎麼想 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10148.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10175.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
對基本法的概念應該是後續就除了那個框架說這個東西AI本身它不能違背不要危害人類這是最大原則之外它可能後續的很多的資料的整合跟研發就到我們的AI是要自己國家我們要研發呢還是我們要用現成的等等的那如果涉及到研發的問題涉及到跨部會或是跨學術資源整合的時候我們確定說數位部這不是你們的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10177.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10193.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
因為我一直認為認定當然這是我認定的數位部的就像部長剛剛所說的數位部的工作或數字的功能應該是在作用上面包含說你剛剛提到的風險管理包含提到的數據的這個分析等等的應該是所謂的作用部分但是在上位的那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10195.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10213.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
大腦的東西就整個跨部會跨這種學術單位整合理論上看起來比較像國科會啦沒關係這個我有機會再討論啦我是先把這個治理圖這是我認定的方向讓部長了解一下那我先今天很明確知道你部長的想法了好不好好那接下來我們進到一個實際的問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10215.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10243.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
一樣是這個AI詐騙的問題我想最近包含說我們自己國內很多的這種生成式的就是這種假的人假的人類假的語音假的影像來進行詐騙的行為來假冒警察警察官等等的來開視訊或甚至可以生成一些相關文件來標求來配合說要來清查資金轉賬保管等等的然後我想不只在台灣去年9月英國的銀行這個Stalin Bank跟這個他們也發布了一個數據他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10245.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10261.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
這個利用AI進行生意複製的詐騙也在上升美國的Federal Trade Commission他們數據也顯示去年光是商業冒名的詐騙案件就達到將近8億美元的損失這大概是一些基本的數據那既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10263.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10283.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
面對到AI科技它現在已經可以做到這樣的程度的時候我不知道以數位部的角色因為這還是回答到問題大家期待數位部在打詐騙事情上扮演一定的角色嘛那對於AI有這樣子的功能開始這樣的功能我們有什麼樣的防禦措施還是除了呼籲民眾提高警覺之外政府部門或數位部有沒有什麼防禦的工具或措施能夠做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10283.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10307.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們也在開發一些工具來判斷剛剛講的這個深微的D-Fake這種語音的訊息那這個但是從技術面去試著我們去解決那這個確實也有一些進展但不是100%確實有一些效果那我們用AI去網頁去到處掃描看到類似的比如說什麼叫類似比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10307.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10336.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
照片照片當名人就你現在很多很多時候照片可能是照片是名人可是上面的名字不是他所以像這種東西我們也要做一些辨識所以那比如說以我為例我現在覺得結合這張圖他當然是用張忠謀的臉張忠謀的談話張忠謀講話的畫面用他的各項談話的聲音整合成你也可以做到就是我張忠謀明不在講這樣一頭來投資我的我的公司我投資的投資公司但是他可以把它做成 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10337.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10357.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
用張忠謀在各地方演講的就是技術上可行嘛都把它融合到這個畫面裡面然後下廣告做這個網站那當然一方面我們要去處理廣告的問題那同時我說對於這種他已經把影像跟人結合起來變成一個畫變成一個影片然後四處傳播的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10358.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10385.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
當代就是我們的技術面上能不能去克服這些事情去找出這個是假的或是把它設計出來說它是假的然後把它下降或怎麼樣處理剛剛這個在比如以委員這張照片這個有一個張忠謀但上面的名字如果不是張忠謀這個是可以判斷出來的所以有各式各樣技術可以看出來這整個東西是不是有問題這個我們就是要發展一些AI工具去做這些掃描 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10385.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10413.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
部長因為你是聰明人你當然分辨得出來他騙的不是我們這種人他騙的是這些很多 包含說我下一張圖好了如果我國在使用這個數據上面65歲以上甚至他的上網率他對AI的理解率跟我們這個年齡層是有很大的差距的那被騙的很多人也都是65歲以上或是退休人士那他可能對於這種科技已經走到今天這一步了他不理解他就被騙了所以我現在問說政府除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10414.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10434.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
去識別說這個名字跟這個人名是不太一樣之外我們是想發展AI工具去做自動辨識啦有在做嗎有在做什麼時候會有比較明顯的成效他可以真正的做到執行出來的成果是能夠阻擋這件事情發生是我們資安院 資安院可能院長可以簡單說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10435.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10449.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那個我們現在的詐騙廣告已經都變多模態也就是說他的圖片跟影音鑲在那個廣告裡面那我們現在掃出來的都可以掃出來也就是說我們可以把不管他是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10451.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10479.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
文字那個圖裡面有箱文字我們可以抓出文字那圖裡面有在頁面裡面有箱影音我們可以抓出來辨識那這個是這個部分的處理另外一個部分是說這個影片到底是深圍深圍那我們可以辨識的出來它是不是深圍合成的那目前都有掃出來到進去那個打炸通報網裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10480.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10497.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個是這個部分好謝謝院長的說明那最後我想就是希望把院長包含說不我們把這相關的目前的成效提供一份給我們委會委員讓大家也了解像你們現在做的成果怎麼樣後續我們可以在精簡的地方讓民眾也比較安心好不好好謝謝委員好部長謝謝謝謝我們請張雅琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10520.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10522.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10530.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10555.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
好 那我想就是說今天我想要主要來討論也還是像是AI基本法跟以及我們AI基本法未來要制定的一些我們可能要考量的面向來跟部長做一些討論那就是說在2024年的時候呢7月5號日本發布日本的一個資訊通訊白皮書呢其中統計了多個國家的人在使用生成式AI的一個使用率那就發現說日本敬佩莫作啦說他們是最後一名那英國大概也是只有39.8% |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10558.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10573.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那我們的MIC的資測會呢其實也做了在去年也做一個深層式AI的大調查那36%的網友其實都使用過這個深層式AI的工具那其中我們的年輕族群18到25歲的使用的比例呢又是更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10573.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10601.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那這也因此呢在這個影響到了未來現在這個日本在做這個AI的人工智慧白皮書的第二版的時候他們宣示日本要成為世界上使用AI最friendly的國家作為他們當前的一個策略目標那其實他們也在今年的二月的時候呢也正式的確立了這個AI的法案會由全體閣僚就是各部部長來作為AI的統管機關來制定相關的研發跟應用計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10604.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10615.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
他們是說他們的科學技術政策擔當大臣陳內實表示我們將建構既能夠促進創新又能應對風險的全球示範性法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10617.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10636.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
與全國之力讓日本成為AI全球最適合AI開發和運用的國家那他們這個法呢其實也在今年的5月28號由參議院審議通過了成為他們首部人工智慧的法律框架那我想要其實從上個禮拜大家一直不停的在討論一件事情就是說到底AI基本法我們應該目標定定是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10637.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10664.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
因為其實我想過去在國科會啊因為它主要是在科學研究它的一些風險它一定是會調的比較低嘛因為它相對的是要讓科學可以持續的去推展但是當我們今天回到了產業的運用上面我們已經看到了非常多的問題所以我自己在想就是說當我們現在數位部要來做這個法的時候我們自己的目標定定的到底是什麼可不可以請部長大概簡單講一下委員妳講得很好就是事實上這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10665.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10681.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
AI的發展就剛剛講一方面重視創新另外一方面重視管理那美國的做法不一樣像歐盟就比較重視管理美國就比較開放創新日本也比較重視創新所以就是說基本上是用法來鼓勵創新包括投資等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10681.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10710.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那我們台灣應該是介於這兩個的中間所以我們同時注重一些管理管理包括就跟風險管理跟資料治理但是我們又不希望因為太強像歐盟這麼強勢的管理影響到AI的產業的發展所以這個就為什麼拿捏在為什麼這個有這麼多討論有這麼多版本那我們為什麼在行政院包括在我們部裡面有這麼多討論都是因為這個拿捏要很精準那就比如說因為AI技術又在進步進步很快 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10711.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10738.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以就是說我們過去認為的管理方式可能再過一年或再過半年又不對所以就是說這個東西變成就是一個一個是一個挑戰了解我懂那因為其實基本上在歐盟我們算以前歐盟是定的非常想管控局是高的可是我們今年也可以看到波蘭跟英國在這個月都踩煞車嘛因為他們也發現他們會擔心在全世界競爭上面他們會輸 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10739.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10757.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以我想這個東西可能希望在七月的時候七月底的時候預計會提出版本的時候我們是不是也可以怎麼樣去根據現在的一個發展的趨勢去拿捏出因為在立法目的上面就要續名因為我們現在立法目的裡面其實並沒有去講到促進經濟相關的產業發展我們比較是在管控面的角度原來是這樣沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10758.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10772.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
對所以我想這個就是因為全世界其實不管是過去大家有管控的都已經開始慢慢要轉個彎所以我們在立法目的上面應該也要去做一些修正才對那這個部分就是做一個提醒跟建議好那再來下一個部分就是說呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10777.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10805.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們其實在五月份的時候呢我跟這個訴務發佈其實有開了一個會就是有關於基本法的一個修法會議當時我就有針對就是評測中心當時是有講說我們說產業開發啊其實都會到評測中心去做一個檢測這樣子那當時是也有跟我說會這個依據這個涵蓋公平性啦準確性啊可靠性啊隱私級資安等等文面下讓讓我們的這個產品可以去保護到這個兒童然後防止犯罪等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10806.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10829.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
但是我看了一下我們的題目啊其實我們的題目我請教了一些相關的專家學者他們覺得這樣子的題目其實是不夠精準而且非常的簡略啦其實要真的要避免我們讓兒童所攝錄的像聊天機器人讓孩子去自殺了這樣子的狀況其實似乎不足那當時呢我在這邊其實也有學者提供我一些建議那這個之後我也會再提供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10831.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10850.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
給我們的評測中心那基本上他們是說如果今天這個東西AI的產品開發用於教育職業培訓學生評估或者是監控學習者的行為或者是擁有了與未成年心理情緒互動等等情緒識別就會把這樣子的東西是視為高風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10853.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10879.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那他必須在風險管理設計合規自我評估還有第三發審查的時候明確的去納入了兒童的脆弱性操控風險家長同意流程透明度與可識別性也就是說像在操作系的部分他們要確認是否有難以察覺的誘導式設計例如可能是遊戲化獎勵啦無限滑動讓兒童無意識的進行操作或者是過度的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10880.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10905.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
以及這個裡面是否明確的標示為AI兒童可以識別我今天是在跟機器人互動不是真人互動才能夠讓他提出一個更容易辨識的提示以及是否依據GDPR取得家長的同意限制敏感資料的收集並且提供刪除及存取權限給兒童及家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10906.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10922.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那這個東西呢我會認為這是這才是真正做到了所謂的兒少的保護那這個部分呢我們是不是可以其實之前評測中心是說可以再跟兒少團體來做一些討論那這部分是不是也可以邀請部長承諾這件事情應該可以我們再請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10923.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10943.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
在我們修法之前我們是不是就可以做到這件事情因為我希望當我們的這個基本法出去之後這個沒有問題那個委員這邊或者任何那個學者專家有那個一套題目希望我們對各種那個AI進行監測的話你可以把那個題目交給我們的AI評測中心那我們AI評測中心就會去做所謂的Benchmark |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10943.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10961.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這邊我們可以提供團體跟學者的名單但我希望除了在評測之外在我們基本法的時候是不是可以把這些概念也放進去我想再跟委員看怎麼安排我們再去增進我們這方面的評測的項目好那我們一起努力 謝謝好我們現在請翁曉琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10980.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10981.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好這邊有請那個部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10989.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11012.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
是部長好因為時間的關係所以我待會可能會很快的問幾個問題首先就是因為我今天在電也看到了新聞就是有關於我們的無線電視台的執照其實即將在6月30號就要屆期那麼因為現在無線電視台的這個執照呢它的是執照榜頻率那麼如果但是NCC現在因為委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11013.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11040.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
缺位的問題所以還沒有辦法補齊那麼有看到他們之前前的做法有關於頻道執照的這個借齊但是沒有辦法更換的話他們會用行政指導的方式呢告訴業者說你們就繼續繼續播放那麼現在問題來了就是說是對於無線電視台的頻率的部分核發頻率釋出發布的職責那你們接下來會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11041.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11046.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那個我們是不是指那個資源師來做個說明因為我們無線電視台總共有16個頻道喔我們有16個頻道他們的這個執照都即將在6月30號戒指 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11053.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11079.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
跟委員報告 那就誠如剛剛委員說的我們的這個頻率合法其實是為了提供這個無線電視的服務所以在這部分因為目前這個NCC還在這個審查這個無線電視跟相關廣播電視的這個續照審理中那所以除非這個NCC否準了這個續照申請那不然的話我們這個頻率目前還是還是在持續使用中 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11080.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11095.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那基本上我覺得你們回去要研議就是頻道執照的核發跟頻率的部分是不是可以分開處理各核發各的這個相關的這個許可那麼因為現在ACC他就縱使他說他在審議相關的執照換照的作業可是因為ACC委員會的沒有達到法定人數7人嘛他們現在只有3位嘛有4位都這個行政院也沒提名行政院已經單 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11109.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11129.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
過了一整年將近一整年的時間都沒有提出新的人選本來卓榮他還說在五月的時候就會提出新的這個NCC委員的名單但是到現在為止都沒有看到那麼所以呢接下來就是有關於無線電視有16家無線電視台的執照到期可是他的頻率 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11130.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11150.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
合法的問題我認為說速發部這邊應該要研議還是說你們其實這個頻率合法就是要盡速的去處理那麼畢竟就是你們之前曾經也對於業者只要是頻率稍微頻譜晚交一些時間回來然後你們就予以很重的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11151.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11165.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
頻率我們原則上NCC如果沒有說要繳回我們是不會處理的就是說可以繼續使用所以頻率是已經合劃了他們就頻率也有頻率執照的這個借期的時間嘛好的部長我想你對這方面不是很了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11166.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11172.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那麼你可能會再回去了解一下就是有關於這個執照的這個問題那接下來我第二個問題要問的就是因為這次中華電信有兩張商用憑證都被撤銷那麼其實從修發部所委託的第三方集合的2024年政府伺服器數位憑證管理中心外部集合報告當中就有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11187.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11192.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
其實從2023年開始這個中華電信他其實陸陸續續就出了一些狀況那麼甚至有這個陸的CA團隊也都這個在從2023年到2025年然後2024年2023、2024、2025都有吹角說他們應該要趕快的要去把這相關的憑證作業要處理好那麼因為都沒有這個做好所以這次憑證作業就發生了疏失 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11215.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11231.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那麼可能也會對於台灣的現在的公務機關的這個憑證產生的一些影響那請問這個書發部自己有沒有檢討你們現在對於這個中華電信會怎麼處理我們有在跟中華電信就是在溝通那個細節我請那個蘇貞司司長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11234.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11251.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
是跟委員報告就是我們跟中華電線的關係是屬於契約關係所以我們其實對他們的營運狀況我們也會有一個集合的方式那當然剛才委員有提到說之前有發現說他們在管理面上面沒有做得很好這個我們在跟他們的一些會議上面都會都有提醒他們那至於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11252.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11265.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
是 謝謝因為您剛剛說到所謂的契約關係我想請教就是到底目前有多少政府機關是使用中華電信的憑證是全部嗎就是我們目前中央的地方政府機關都是使用中華電信的憑證嗎是 報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11267.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11282.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
目前就是包括中央地方跟國營事業他們總共有大概一萬張的憑證是使用中華電信的那這個使用中華電信的憑證我們政府每年要花多少錢去訂購這樣子的一個憑證去購買這樣的憑證是一年一年的簽約還是說是一次都是簽很多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11289.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11303.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們每年都會有一個預約的程序但是因為我們這整個案子是跟其他的一起合在一起所以它其實裡面是算是一個集中的功能算是一個集中採購嘛那所以大概是多少錢您知道嗎大概每年是300到500萬之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11306.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11333.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
300到500萬之間所以這次就說因為發生了中華電信有違約的一個情況所以政府機關應該是要去向中華電信請求損害賠償我希望就是書發部這邊能夠要處理好這件事情要給中華電信一些教訓另外我還再請教就是說這次的事件是不是屬於資通安全管理法當中的所謂的資通安全事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11335.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11361.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
報告委員 這個事實上剛剛講就是說這個是他的憑證中心要發憑證的時候從今年8月30號開始不能發憑證但是並不影響到我們已經就是他已經發憑證那個加密等級的時候還夠然後包括我們現在還有雙憑證還有一個TWCA的憑證所以事實上並沒有影響到我們整個政府的治安所以我想我在這邊要提醒部長我覺得你們對於自動安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11362.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11389.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
是自動安全事件你們的解釋真的非常狹隘喔那麼怎麼能夠講說這次因為憑證的這個失效然後所以好像感覺都對於這個自動安全沒有影響那另外我好接下來我問一下就是在你們自動安全法裡面其實有講到關鍵基礎設施者中華電信是不是屬於在自動安全法裡面所指的自通關鍵基礎設施者 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11391.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11411.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
他是指的是他的電信系統還是說他是屬於關鍵電信基礎設施者他的那個電信系統是關鍵基礎對CI是屬於CI但是指的是他的那個電信的系統電信系統那麼因為在你們現在第16條裡面其實也有對不起應該是第18條 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11414.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11432.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
特定非公務機關就是指的關鍵基礎設施因為這段安全事件他有相關的一些這個義務要求違反的話還有處罰所以中華電信在這邊的話中華電信有很多服務比如說像哈密哈密就不是CI所以哈密出問題不屬於治安的我們管理的範疇所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11434.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11462.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
但是他如果電信系統出這個就是我們管理就是我們屬於CI的部分所以剛剛講那個CA目前也不在我們CI裡面就CA是說他發憑證的這個功能目前被Google取消但是他過去所發憑證還是有效還是一個加密等級都夠的所以我想說這個不是一個治安事件這是他裡面管理的這個CA的發放的這樣的一個過程裡面出了問題但是並不影響所有拿到他過去拿過他這些憑證的人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11463.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11488.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
我現在不想過去 而是講說它現在的確實它造成一些問題對不對但如果說當初不是因為有些機關他們可能即時的去購買第二章的這個憑證那可能就會發生治安的問題那麼我要講的就是說是如果說是今天速發部對於自動安全管理法的解釋是這麼的狹隘像中華電信 更換我們全台灣我們上萬個機關都是使用中華電信的憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11489.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11509.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們雙方機關其實沒問題因為我們都換成雙憑證以後都換成TWCA憑證所以完全沒有影響到未來因為你們之前已經知道它發生這樣的問題嗎我們本來就進行雙變因為任何的所謂的韌性一定都是要有所謂的back up所以這個是在我商量的時候我也很肯定書發布對於這個事情至少說你們已經採取了一個緊急的應變的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11511.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11537.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
但是就是說對於中華電信它是不是屬於我們資通安全管理法裡面所指的資通的這個關鍵基礎設施或者是說你們直接講說它就是關鍵基礎電信關鍵基礎設施也沒有問題因為依照電信管理法裡面的規定本來你們就要去訂定電信關鍵基礎設施的防護管理辦法可是看起來你們都沒有說你們也沒有對於中華電信有任何的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11538.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11567.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
CI包括就幾個產業啦一個就電信業電信業講是電信服務但我還是講說中華電信有很多很多服務不是每一個服務都是屬於CI的部分所以我想說這case by case那如果今天是電信系統出問題或是被入侵那當然是屬於治安事件但是今天這個事情是一個嚴格講起來並不影響政府的治安的這個防護也不影響目前民間在使用現在自動安全管理法裡面處理的不是只有公務機關的治安防護連非特定公務機關也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11568.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11578.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那我現在要強調的就是講說因為這個事情很重要如果按照部長講的話其實根本以後也不需要去買電信系統電信系統就是我們現在是委託中華電信去處理電信憑證的這件事情那麼當然很重要否則我們民眾這個這個常常傳送資料給政府機關他會被竊取啊他沒有加密保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11591.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11596.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
這個部分就是為什麼台灣詐騙的情況那麼嚴重我想我這邊我就提示就是部長你們這邊還是要好好去研議好不好關於自動安全世界好像中華電信這個問題可能先前 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11607.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11627.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
法律沒有辦法規定的很完備 可是這個部分必須要檢討我們會 我們有在督促 但是我就說你們剛剛講中華電信這個部分 給我一份你們的檢討報告不過中華電信的事件並不影響我們政府的治安就是這個我必須要強調那就麻煩請你們兩個禮拜之內給我一份就是你們對於中華電信的這個憑證失效的這個檢討報告給我發放憑證失效 不是憑證沒有失效發放憑證對 是是 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11640.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11664.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
因為後面來很多人我想我們時間到如果隔一分鐘再響鈴一次我們請宗教兵委員主席在場原先列席的政局院首長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請部長請部長主席你叫了我很快速度不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11670.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11699.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
來 部長好 你不用急來 你看看最近有沒有這兩個月有人用吉卜力風格的在傳貼圖有沒有看到 有沒有看過這個呢吉卜力在日本他們的一些著作一些創作人他們抗議說你把這個吉卜力畫風可以不受著作權保護嗎結果日本政府說的確他認為他們的著作權是單純的創意或風格本身不受著作權保護請問部長為什麼日本政府要將AI生成圖獻出他的著作權保護呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11701.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11724.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這個委員提這個確實是一個問題這個就是各國的法律因為這個確實在AI的訓練裡面他們需要塗料庫嘛對不對 要更多的塗料庫如果這些AI生成公司都把錢花在取得著作權的這些塗料上面那他們就沒有餘力去買超級電腦運算對不對好 那我們來看一下所以我們像AI新十大建設有提到AI主權AI |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11725.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11748.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
速發部說主權AI訓練語料庫對不對所以速發部目前在幫忙打造這樣的一個AI的訓練語料庫嘛對所以你們是不是也認同或者說覺得日本的做法的確有它的必要性我們要發展AI主權AI我們也事實上呢對於這些語料庫的建立訓練語料庫的建立也要國家來投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11749.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11774.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
對 我們上次蘇發部就是我們那個資料創新司司長就是在負責推動這一塊好 很好 那我們往下看但是相對的我們除了這些之外呢也提到了我們的預告的這個利用發展促進條例當中也得到公務員我們也避免他除非是重大過失我們也不希望他因為要去承辦這個業務而侵犯到包括著作權等其他的這個爭議是不是這樣對 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11776.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11796.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
好但是但是我們要另外一面平衡往下看但是呢關於想下一頁我們的各自保護啊其實呢健保法當中呢個人可以請求停止使用但是我們的條例預告當中呢我們是採取促進個人這樣的保護措施或機制民眾可以請求停止嗎這個來這裡說明一下我們在進語料資料庫的時候訓練資料庫的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11803.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11829.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
跟委員報告我們在這個促進資料創新利用發展條例裡面的這個前應該是第四條就有規定是說在資料創新的過程當中仍然要符合各自保護所以也要符合爆發健保法的規定對要有各自保護好謝謝那部長今天我想我們再說明一下我們國家要發展這個主權AI要生成是AI我們有很多的法令法制都要建立其他國家我們也可以參考往下看但是另外我要談另外一個就是打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11830.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11851.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
經常我每次來請教你都跟打詐有關目前我們有一個第三方支付的量能登錄制度部長你認為這個量能登記制度還有效嗎那個當然有精進的空間啦不過目前在管理上是有它的效果那有沒有制定出相關的監管法規呢目前只有登錄制度喔監管法規有沒有監管法規 來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11852.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11879.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們洗房法向下有好幾個執法所以我們有根據洗房法上面去定對所以你們都是根據洗房法來來做控制但是沒有自己訂立一個監管法規有沒有就是洗房法嘛就用洗房法而已嘛好我們看一下那洗房法什麼問題但是你來看一下第三方之戶有一個公司洗錢50億啊他是大規模的惡性的倒閉但是呢我們我們來看一下今晚會裁判多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11883.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11905.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
金管會裁罰多少 這個案例金管會裁罰來 我要告訴你我來自財政委員會金管會對於這些裁罰都會在當日後就公布那現在你看 我現在問你你也不知道 我也不知道啊到底裁罰了沒有 裁罰多少 知不知道裁罰了 但是裁罰多少30萬30萬 待會我有問到了啦但是有沒有公布 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11907.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11931.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
有公佈嗎 你們有沒有一個明白的公佈說明辦法讓我們外界社會可以理解到這些涉及到詐騙的他有被你們裁罰部長 是不是你們要加強這個部分我們有在媒體群組公佈我的意思是說你們什麼時候公佈其實是你們的行政裁量但是如果你們定出了一個辦法民眾就可以知道說我們可以定時的去看你們有沒有依法裁罰 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11934.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11961.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
部長知道意思沒有 我們要比照金管會把你們的重大裁罰要要求一個約束 自我約束 定期公告另外剛剛說什麼 你們說罰了30萬你們是根據洗房法啊但是我們來看一下洗錢防治法裡面呢如果是機構的是50萬到1000萬個人的是5萬到500萬我看你們的等級是把它當作個人在罰不是把它當作機構在罰 部長會不會裁罰太輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11964.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11985.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
三十萬啊洗髮法是機構是五十到一千個人是五到五百看起來你們是用個人的尺度去裁罰請問這個地方洗錢的難道是個個人嗎是不是你們在未來裁罰的時候要考慮一下因為他是屬於第三方支付是屬於金融機構喔他是被認定是屬於金融機構喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11988.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12006.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
現在是因為負責人好像被羈押了所以負責人被羈押是一件事情我說你們是用機構的尺度去裁罰還是用個人的尺度去裁罰部長你們未來要把這個區分區分出來好不好好加強打仗好最後呢最後一個問題齁我們說為落地平台提報法律代表請問這個法律代表能負責什麼法律責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12008.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12033.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
法律代表就是給你一個人頭給你看啊我們就是有要裁罰或者是要那個下架就會經過那他找個人頭他能負什麼法律責任他如果沒有照我們的要求出我們就開始開罰裁罰開罰那個人頭就是那個公司代表他就是法律代表嘛所以法律代表的一個承擔能力呢還太弱啦我們再往下看所以最後最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12033.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12048.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
無廣告業務的平台沒有納入打炸專法現在是有廣告業務的才納入打炸專法嗎目前是那未來呢未來可不可以把這些無廣告業務的想辦法納進打炸專法來這個要修法嗎這個要修要修法 有沒有打算修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12049.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12071.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不然我們來推動來 最後的結論所以呢 速發部應該完善第三方支付的業務監管法規 目前沒有違法的重大 應該在官網上依據辦法來公告另外呢 對於未落地際未提供網路廣告服務的平台要阻詐是不是這個阻寫錯了阻止了阻請一個月內提出書面報告好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12079.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12082.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
謝謝 我們現在請葉元智委員請那個 署罰部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12100.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12127.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
部長你這邊有提到就是說發展AI政府是要把環境弄好主要是要靠民間的力量那這邊其中有一個提到是算力支持那是針對新創團隊要免費的提供他們GPU算力資源我想先問一下這個部分到底細節是什麼你是先跟三大雲就是像這個Google Amazon他們去先取得算力還提供給他們還是只是給錢而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12128.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12153.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們是自己剪那個細節我請蘇貞說明跟委員報告我們現在買了40片的GPU因為新創或中小企業比較缺乏資金那AI又是未來的一個趨勢所以我們提供新創跟中小企業一些免費的算力你不要重複我的問題我的問題是說你現在提供算力是指說去跟三大雲沒有 是我們自己購買的自己購買的是不是自己購買的那你怎麼分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12155.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12161.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這有申請然後有專業的委員來審查怎麼審查一個新創公司可以取得多少算力 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12162.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12188.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
都是固定譬如是六個禮拜裡面有多少時間可以使用六個禮拜以內多少時間 對那超過咧 就沒辦法對 那這個就為德不足啦我跟蘇花威提醒一下GPU的這個資源現在非常稀缺啦現在先不要先不管說是新創團隊啦包括一些那種大的比較大型的公司他們也許暫時可以跟三大雲取得GPU的資源可是對未來也報一個很大的問號 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12189.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12214.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那觸發部你現在的做法是你取得以後有一個限制嘛要經過審核嘛所以很多新創公司可能在這個部分還是沒辦法得到滿足啦所以如果說要解決新創公司的算力的問題或者是一般的不是新創也許是比較成熟公司但是他因為AI發展的比較厲害所以他可能也是需要算力所以其實應該要一個比較長遠的做法是政府有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12215.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12242.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
建構相關的基礎建設就是成立那個算力中心報告員那個分兩塊本來我們今年是要再買70片那是因為預算的關係就因為被刪了所以就沒買你又買的都不夠啦我現在的問題是說有沒有可能是建構建構那個自己建構一個預算中心現在我們有我們將來可能不久之後會提到AI十大建設那個裡面就有算力的那大概什麼時候會建制好 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12242.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12271.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那個在十大建設應該在六月六月會提到院不是啊六月提到院什麼時候會建因為產業不關心你什麼時候提到院產業是關心什麼時候有足夠的算力可以使用所以假設你現在要提這個計畫大概什麼時候可以有這個預算中心那個提到院的下一步就是會有預算嘛預算需要立法院不然不要一直講這些細節好不好我現在問的是時程啊你什麼時候可以完整產業關心什麼時候會有的用不關心你什麼時候提什麼時候對 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12272.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12290.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
大概什麼時候所以115年預算通過如果預算通過就會開始建制什麼時候不要繞圈圈我們現在時間很有限啦115年開始建制什麼時候會完成就是說四年的計畫嘛四年的計畫所以是119年可以完成就是整個建制完成應該是119年 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12291.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12318.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以因此在119年之前其實台灣會面臨到一個嚴重的算力的稀缺問題我剛剛講的嘛比較成熟公司跟三大雲台也會有遇到一定的困難新創公司的要靠你的分配而且有一定的限制所以這一塊我覺得現在速發部提供的支持是不夠的啦我希望說可以提出更多的像你們講的啊政府要提供好的環境我再問一個我覺得不太夠啦要提出來不要一直扯預算啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12318.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12339.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
你是在吵架的嗎 我在跟你討論產業 你都故意在那邊講一些政治語言我在跟你討論產業 我在反映產業的心聲你一直在跟他講一些政治的語言 政府官不要這樣子啦今天大家都是就事論事啦 都是在就事論事預算大家都支持好不好 119年之前這段時間45年產業可能會面臨到算力的積缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12344.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12359.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
希望你重視這件事情希望你重視這件事情不要找一堆理由不想做好不好那就面對問題回答就好了扯東扯西幹嘛還有一個啊你說行銷媒合說要成立那個AI的產業媒合會那這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12359.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12376.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
如果說只是做一個展示告訴大家說我有什麼產品什麼產品你可以來用其實這沒有誘因啦我不知道說政府現在有沒有提供一些獎勵措施告訴企業說如果你導入AI的一些應用的話可以有什麼獎勵有沒有有沒有這方面的方案行銷部也是請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12377.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12393.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個跟委員報告那個補助歸補助那行銷的媒合歸行銷的媒合因為一家那個有實力而且健康的公司最需要的其實不是政府的補助而是大量而穩定的訂單那我們辦這些我不是說補助啦我是說媒合會啦我現在在說媒合會 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12394.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12411.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
對啊我不是說補助欸我是說你辦那個產業媒合會除了展售之外有沒有一些獎勵讓那個企業導入我問的問題這個我不是在講補助那個導入的話那個看要看說需求方是誰如果需求方譬如說我們現在在做的HR |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12411.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12440.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那個HIS產業或者是那個長照日照的這個機構那這個獎勵會是來自於衛福部那有些那個終端的客戶是來自於經濟部所主管的那個產業那這些經濟部那邊也會有相關的一些那個獎勵就是獎勵這些這個企業端這個需求端他們購買我們這些利用AI所製作出來的那個數位的產品這個是我們都是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12440.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12449.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們過去有那個雲市級的program就是在提供然後提供一些點數補助但是這個program一樣被canned掉了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12451.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12479.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個部長你今天不是讓你來抱怨我們在討論事情啦好不好我們在討論事情好不好那另外就是你說要投資100億那個AI新創團隊但是我問過很多AI新創團隊都不曉得這個東西耶你們有在宣傳嗎我們有有那個因為我們但是我問過真的很多人不知道喔所以你覺得你有做可是很多人不知道我是把那個民間的我知道我們剛剛選完搭配投資人那在下一步就搭配投資人就是會去增建增建以後我們就會開始補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12480.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12501.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這應該是在近期 可能要加強宣導啦 謝謝王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在黃婕 黃婕 黃婕委員不在我們請魯明哲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12510.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12513.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請黃部長請部長好 陸委員好好 部長直接跟您討論一下因為前一陣子這可以講做網路我們科技領域非常重要的一個事件在5月底Google宣布在中華電信的部分它的憑證的信任出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12536.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12564.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那他中間的一些理由啊特別講說過去一年對於中華電信相關的這個作為他的令人擔憂的行為模式中間可靠性下降啊有些缺失沒改善沒有達到預期這整整的原因就是Google移除這個中華電信的品質就是不信任那中華電信的初步的回答也讓人真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12565.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12588.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
蠻佩服的 一句話 大家不要緊張為什麼呢 下面中華電力第一次的回應因為只是部分的程序未能在新政策要求的實現內完成只是時間不夠 方向都沒問題他也沒有講人家是給你一年的時間還是給你一個月的時間 為什麼不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12590.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12613.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這樣的你今天立場有兩個啦第一個你是一個我們台灣不管是數位安全資安甚至如果這個憑證會影響到產業發展要做生意種種的國際性問題你是這樣的一個主管你作為一個專家領域你對這個事情可以在旁邊作為第三者做一個評鑑好不好我先請你用一個你專業領域來對應中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12616.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12638.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
這樣的回答跟在國際上面的一個瀏覽器Google發生這樣的問題你能夠做個評鑑嗎中華電信出了什麼問題那個鮑委員我先講我們對這個事情的看法就基本上第一個這個事情不影響政府的所謂的治安因為這個他過去發了憑證跟那個跟我們在使用的憑證是完全沒有治安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12638.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12664.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他現在出問題是出在8月1號以後要重新發新的憑證Google不讓他發這是第一個那第二個就是說那個這個當然是這個所謂中華電信內部關聯問題他前陣子也有新聞就他們內部的處分那現在重點是那個我也跟Google跟中華電信討論過剛剛講政府我們有雙簽證所以都已經換了反正就完全沒有問題民間的憑證呢他們也答應如果到了8月1號之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12665.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12693.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
有新的憑證需要如果需要轉他們會免費幫業者就產業界做轉所以基本上對台灣的資安是沒有受到影響但是中華電信在這過程中的一些未來怎麼去加強這個中華電信要再去檢討那他們也答應會在未來尤其是這個憑證他們希望能夠將來再取得發憑證的權利那這個他們內部會加緊進行去爭取這樣的權利部長你現在是以第三者的專家的領域來去評鑒中華電信這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12695.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12718.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
但我是真的希望不要跟中華電信一樣把這個事情感覺很小沒有問題沒有影響我來幫你想像一下好不好這件事發生美國第一大龍頭AT&TAT&T的憑證信任系統假設被打槍或者德國的不管是德國歐洲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12719.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12741.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
某個電信系統公司遇到這樣的問題我們不講我們不要幫他解釋你會不會對於這個國家或這個領域你會覺得有幾時不信任的感覺我是覺得這件事情中華電信要檢討我也相信你也支持一個人的信任要拚一輩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12742.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12767.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
你知道吧有時候做人處事我幾年還沒有辦法得到大部分人的信任那你在網路世界一個好啦 類國家的一個機構你要累積一點點的信任其實是不容易的我們真的是希望中華電信他能夠有這樣的一個體認啦他不是說我就是一家公司啦抱歉啦我跟你講這個抱歉是非常嚴重所以你自己覺得要改善但你覺得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12768.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12792.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
專業的問題還是人的態度問題那主要是人的問題嘛所以他有很多的一個在中華電信裡面有很多的專家很多的IT人才他整體來處理這件事的專業我們看起來最後感覺是沒有問題他有能力處理但是只是人啊態度的問題那我是覺得到底是管理階層的問題或者中間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12795.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12814.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我倒是覺得因為這個問題比我們想像更大在網路世界其他國家怎麼樣去信任台灣的網路確實產生了一些影響我們再來看一下這個董事長過了不到一個禮拜又說了松麻電競的第二個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12816.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12837.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
還是拍誰啦就是以為被寄過來沒想到是直接退學了其實我聽到這個又有點怕你知道嗎因為我們把很多的一個重任交給中華電信數位發展部請你以第二種角色好不好因為在政府的伺服器數位憑證管理中心啊所謂的GTLS CA這個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12841.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12854.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這個第一頁一清二楚主辦單位就是社會部主辦單位執行單位不管你們的合作模式怎麼樣都不重要啦都不重要那請你當事人這個身分你是主辦單位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12855.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12877.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
對不對那你這個事情委託他們不是我的意思就是說在這個的部分你寫得很清楚對於這種相關的一些憑證的規範甚至瀏覽去網路的論壇一堆專家都是相關的一些規則要去follow結果呢我就不意去講啦就是已經是一年前發生的事情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12878.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12898.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
還在不同的瀏覽器對不對也許是Fivefox先發現這個不對嘛就有一些出現了一些問題所以這個時間是非常非常久然後咧在下面評論一啊他令人無法相信中華電信會可靠的遵守憑證遵守這個Business Rule |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12899.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12914.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
你看看他這邊的在這個論壇裡面留校察看的給他們時間怎麼樣去改善相關的問題不斷的提醒而且不光是Google還有這個另外一家像Fivefox對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12915.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12929.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
Mozila也在提醒他所以你現在遇到這樣的一個情況最後扯到的我就請問一下我們你是當事人我覺得這樣的啦政府我們今天給數位部真的非常多委外的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12931.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12947.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以你千萬不要跟我講一件事我委外之後不關我屁事那以後我抱歉我怎麼講髒話了那以後年底一說你委外委外他做對了對不對我們地方政府委要蓋個房子倒了還不關我的事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12948.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12964.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
建商 對不對 設計公司都不是我們這委外嘛對不對 我們委外辦一個跨年晚會啊 搞砸了還有不管我的事啊所以我跟你講這當然是關你的事 因為你是主管機關所以你當你第一件事情我看到數位部的答案是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12966.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12995.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
你跟他其實只是雇傭關係嘛你們為什麼要這樣打還是你們真的內心講說你們只是叫僱約契約的關係啊也沒有什麼督導的關係你要不要再回答一遍你們到底什麼關係那個報委員就是說事實上這個事情啊我剛講就是說因為憑證這個東西我們台灣有兩家公司可以發憑證所以我們跟兩家都有簽約所以他們我們都是委辦這兩家就給政府的政府單位憑證那所以呢當 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12996.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13014.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
中華電力出問題的時候我們就全部switch到所謂TWCA的憑證所以對我們這個對我們出發部來講實際上是完全沒有受政府的服務並沒有受影響不過中華電力發生這個事情確實是也讓我蠻意外的那當然就是說這個東西我相信中華電力內部也在在檢討中 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13015.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13041.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我也跟中華電信要求就是說他們這個憑證現在暫時被發憑證不是憑證本身憑證本身還是有效是發憑證的功的這個能力被Google取消如果他要取回發憑證如果明年還要取回發憑證因為重新申請發憑證需要六到九個月所以他們還要再重新申請那我有要求說中華電信一定要再下一次要再把這個憑證的能力拿回來所以這個東西我們有在後面會再去監督他但是我們在這個過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13042.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13065.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你講這句話我就支持你了嘛你就要求就對啦怎麼會跟我沒有關係契約關係沒有督導你就是要去督導啦這樣做得不對的他到底是人的問題你剛剛講嘛主要是管理的問題人的問題嘛覺得這個事情好像這個有點無所謂或者對於時間他沒有壓力很多原因當然內部的管理他們還是要去處理可是事情搞砸了你知道嗎你們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13067.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13083.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
你們等於說主管機關啊怎麼會說跟你們沒有關係啊所以我是覺得這一件事情對於我們數位部啊就好像講說你很意外但我覺得這種意外是不能夠再發生啊那你們現在有沒有把握它這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13084.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13112.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
不會再發生了這個以這個憑證來講我相信他們現在內部在努力那我們也會持續這段功能就是來把它進展讓我們知道我們希望就是說在明年剛講六到九個月嘛就明年最晚明年三月應該可以重新拿到這個發憑發憑證的這樣一個一個功能所以就是應該可以解決這個問題不過這個在這個過程中我們現在是用另外一家公司就TWC的憑證所以完全不影響政府的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13112.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13136.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好啦 最後兩個建議啦說真的啦 你這個主管機關不能啦 你找人家蓋房子到底蓋得怎麼樣你們三不五時要去監督一下 要去理解一下第二個是問題處理機制倒過來說 他發生問題發生這麼久你們也回答說今年年初你們就知道了你們是很慢知道 那是去年三四月就發生的事情也就是他在裡面一直搞 在那邊拖他也不用跟你回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13137.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13158.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
你之前也不用知道 如果你先知道 你知道嗎你們的有些主管機關 你們專家說這個東西不能開玩笑你可以先提醒 說我要拜託一下 像你們委外不管任何的委外 不能像有些飛彈射後不理其實搞錯了 人家飛彈射出去都是那個電腦一直在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13158.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13186.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
你知道嗎 雷達一直在偵測 不是不理啊所以你們那個偵測 它到底做得怎麼樣定期的檢查 什麼樣的成績上問題 你要回報你要回報 不能夠到事情發生了我覺得在國際上面這是一個蠻笑話的建立一個信任不容易啦所以我要拜託我們數位部 針對你們相關的應該去監督的 應該技術指導的 應該提醒的要更加努力 好不好好 謝謝委員建議好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13196.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13210.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
謝謝 我們請廖先生講完好 謝謝主席 一樣邀請我們黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13218.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13239.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
部長好不好意思喔那就跟您繼續這個延伸請教這個憑證的問題啦那最起碼我們是中華電信的客戶嘛對不對我們來跟他買服務那他目前他因為他被撤銷這個資格他沒有辦法繼續來提供我們的服務那他可能會有一些違約的情況對那我們我有看到新聞說我們會跟中華電信來做球場嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13240.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13252.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我想確認一下我們今年度跟中華電信的合約的金額是多少那我們在合約裡面有沒有做明確的規範我們會給他做多少金額的求償我們請肅政司王市長做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13254.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13282.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
報告委員我們這個今年跟他的案子裡面他其實這個功能是包括在一個大的一個案子裡面那裡面的項目這一項大概是三百到五百萬之間那我們裡面有包括對於廠商的SLA的這個部分那裡面有一項他有這個違反那這個部分的話我們已經會跟他求償總契約是三百到五百嘛那除了我們我們除了不會支付這個服務技術費用之外我們會跟他求償那你求償合約裡面有寫什麼求償嗎還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13284.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13303.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
另外談 合約裡面我們是用祭典的方式就是他的這一項是他沒有在這個Balila上面他有做這樣子的一個好的回應被人家發現說他裡面有些瑕疵 這個部分我們是祭的那你可不可以簡單說我們會跟中華電信求償多少金額這個部分我們後面會再 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13304.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13327.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
會再去看因為這個案子還沒有到結束所以我們會看他實際最後是不是持續的會有做這樣的改變動作很明確的剛剛部長說你要重新申請一個發展的一個這個資格的話最起碼是六年到抱歉最起碼是六到九個月嘛那最起碼是今年都沒有辦法了嘛那所以你應該可以很輕易的確認今年他是沒有辦法完成我們的合約嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13328.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13347.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以你到現在還沒有辦法算出來我們要跟中華電信球場躲上這個部分的話因為他的在合約期間之內他的憑證是可以用的他現在是重點換證嘛第一個換證的部分他沒有後續前面的服務履約了我們當然給他錢嘛後面沒辦法履約了不給付之外我們也會跟他做球場嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13349.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13356.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
對,但是在那段時間,我們這個月已經結束了但是我們在約之前,他在我們換證的時候,我們雙憑證的那個憑證有一個憑證,他們是無償的這個賠償的無償賠償?對對對,就是他會提供那個憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13368.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13381.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以他是可能在七月底截止他會幫忙說可能在八月以後要換約的證要換金的證他全部都會幫我們在他還能夠發證的期間全部發完所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13383.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13398.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
他會幫我們履約但是他有相關的可能可能不符合我們服務當初契約的東西我們還是會跟他求償但求償多少你現在沒統計出來現在那邊沒有一個實際的一個最精確的一個數字好那所以說服務還是會提供是好 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13399.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13414.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
那因為我們今年初就大概知道這個問題了嘛對不對所以說你們導入了雙憑證的一個制度那我們雙憑證就要去跟另外一間廠商簽服務契約嘛那另外因為這個事件衍生出來的費用你們花了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13416.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13433.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
跟委員報告 其實雙憑證這件事情並不是因為這件事件我們才開始規劃你們這件事老實這樣講你們說今年三月的時候發現了所以你們要趕快因應中華電信沒有辦法發憑證所以你們要找另外一家廠商來做服務我們在去年就已經規劃要做雙憑證因為這個在網站這個憑證是比較重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13436.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13454.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
本來的規劃是在今年底到明年要去實行但是因為這個事件所以我們把時程提前所以本來就我在要做這件事情並不是說額外再去另外一個緊急的經費來所以往後每一年都會用雙憑證的一個制度去做對 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13455.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13480.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那對於另外一家廠商的採購你們有沒有因為時程的提前來可能增加服務的人家的要求增加服務的費用等等因為本來就已經在規劃在今年底要完成所以我們經費本來就已經有編載那邊了好那我如果說對方的廠商有沒有因為契約的變更來要求這個溢價之類的倒是沒有沒有嘛那就是照原本的合約去做變更去走這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13481.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13501.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好那後續來跟這個中華電信做可能違約補償的部分那你要麻煩我們出發部後續來做確定之後那也跟教育會來做一個回報好不好好謝謝那部長那繼續跟您請教這個今天主題是一個AI那AI講求就是算力算力的話就是要用電力來支撐 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13503.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13519.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那我們有沒有統計我們未來國家因應發展AI會需要產生多大的電力需求你們有沒有分年度的去做一個階段性的檢討明年後年或大後年AI的產業需要多少的電力資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13520.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13543.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
算力的部分因為剛剛講就是說這個目前因為我們有一個新的要推動是AI十大建設那裡面有些算力的規劃那這個東西還沒有確定那規劃出來以後那個這部算力主要是經濟部會提供資料所以這部但電這種東西不是說我們今天要就要嘛對不對所以你們到現在還沒有跟經濟部去明確的跟他說我們為了發展AI我們需要多少電 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13545.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13565.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
還沒有還沒有到那麼細不過就是說算力的那個我們現在是講說以前叫因為目前不論是國際上還是我們台灣我們的中澳民國國民對於台電能不能穩定供電的這件事情大家有很多的討論嘛有很多人有很多的懷疑嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13565.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13581.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
包括美國為了因應AI算力的電力的需求他們也開始在盤點了他們美國國內的電力需要多少然後往後幾年要增加哪一些電廠現在都已經在做了結果我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13582.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13593.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我們連盤點需要多少電力都還沒有這個階段都還沒有完成我們的台電也完全不知道我們未來要多少的電力才能滿足我們的AI需求算力的規劃現在是在經濟部所以經濟部當然同時會考慮電力所以這部應該是他們會有更多資料我們現在手上沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13602.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13628.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
算力你說經濟部統計不是你這邊在統計因為我們剛剛講AI十大建設裡面有一個叫算力的建制算力建制目前這個主管機關是經濟部好吧 我不管你們怎麼分工啦那我會認為說這是很明確的的剛需它是AI發展的剛需除了算力之外就是電力 缺一不可嘛那我們的電力不是說今天要 明天就有它都是需要 尤其現在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13630.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13648.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
撇開政治的問題要增加電廠什麼東西都是很困難的一件事情那我們的需求儘早來提出來然後給經濟部給台電公司告訴他未來幾年我們的成長幅度有多大他才能夠儘早去溝通甚至是規劃然後跟國民溝通相關的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13648.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13663.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好不好 希望部長這邊事情 我們要再加強啦 好不好 加快相關的不是只提供願景 而是在基礎建設的部分也要跨部會的來溝通 來提早提出需求 請他們來協助我們會在這邊再繼續討論 好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝有號有號 請有號委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13679.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13681.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
謝謝大會主席趙偉有請部長請部長我來討論議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13695.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13715.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那謝謝就是部長那當然我還是要再次感情一下我們部長還有包括兩位署長在這次前幾天有來辦公室也特別來溝通許多議題啊那也再次感謝部長跟署長的用心跟細心跟貼心啊來再次感謝啊謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13716.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13738.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那延續著剛才魯明哲委員以及廖千祥委員所提到的那在這個AI的十大建設那我是在想這個部分速發部也一定是充分討論了就是AI的十大建設那我在想是不是可以請部長或是部內的同仁稍微短的30秒講一下這十大建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13739.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13762.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
十大建設裡面這個有什麼十項我們部裡面負責的就是一個是軟體平台這個的部分還有一個就智慧政府的部分這兩個建設是在我們蘇發部那其他有十項裡面有六項是我們叫協辦那協辦裡面包括但名次還在可能因為證明才沒有最後確定比如說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13765.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13785.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
產業應用我們是協辦全民智慧生活我們是協辦智慧機器人我們是協辦主權AI跟算力我們是協辦人才我們是協辦但是我們負責就是造源軟體產業跟智慧政府資料治理這一塊我們是主辦區域AI軍人發展我們也是協辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13787.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13803.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以我們部裡面負責的工作還蠻多的那主辦就是兆元軟體產業的那個工作跟智慧政府治理治療治理的工作但目前是這樣不過這個還沒有抱怨所以名詞各方面可能還會做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13803.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13828.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
因為我看相關的新聞跟資料在準備的時候還其實其他單位都與待保留啊還都還不好意思就直接講但是我想蘇發布對於這個AI的十大建設一定是非常的參與因為這個還沒有抱怨通過所以我剛講的只是說在我目前看到的版本但是這個我剛講裡面的細節內容跟文字還會做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13829.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13850.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
文字調整的話主要是在它的標題但是方向跟內容的話就是需要的部分那我在想這樣說明就已經足夠那但是也許剛才廖先祥委員所提到的不管是算力與電力那現在目前河山停了之後包括那時候黃仁勳他也提到那其實台灣的AI發展的話其實需要核能 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13850.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13879.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那像現在來講台灣的電力供電已經不穩定了那我想請問一下部長您覺得這個目前的電力來講在發展這AI史達建設會不會到時候遇到瓶頸包委員因為電力的估算現在主要是在經濟部在進行不過我相信他們都就是在行政院有說這個其實到至少到2030都不會有問題那我們就相信這應該是有適當的規劃應該在短期之內不會有任何問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13881.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13904.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那我在想大致上我們也知道其實台灣目前的電力供應是不穩定的那當然說AIS建設它主要的建制它是需要時間啦所以說目前來講2030前還可能電力沒問題不代表2030年後啦那同樣也有關在2030年之前大家在建制的這個進度是否能夠能夠突飛猛進啊那我在想說其實不管是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13905.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13924.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
核能的一個重啟包括在這個電力供應的穩定我覺得其實在速發部也可以持著AI發展的一個角色跟立場來去支持我們能夠用更有效的電力來去發展台灣的產業那這個部分我在想到時候內部的時候你們在討論的時候再做一個評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13926.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13955.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那同樣剛才許多的委員都有提到就是中華電信Google撤銷中華電信TLS憑證信任的事件那其實許多的委員剛才都有提到啦包括不管是對於資安的一個安全資訊安全包括信任斷裂那以及包括目前來講就是不安全的部分有影響到這個多元憑證的多元分散策略還有包括是不是列入年度的一個資安考核那本期在這裡還是想要直接請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13956.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13970.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那因為其實速發部跟Google一直都有在做一個溝通的平台那在現在來講自行翻到現在也將近10天了那溝通的進度以及如何能夠協助中華電術能夠加速取得這個重新的這個憑證 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13974.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13997.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這個工作這個憑證是當我們就是剛講是是中華電信跟Google中間的一個一個這個合約的關係那這個他這個目前我的了解是中華電信在目前因為在8月1號開始他就不再具有重新發憑證的這樣的一個權利所以中華電信現在在努力重新申請然後大家可能需要6到9個月時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13998.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14020.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
訴罰部的話因為跟顧委員有平行溝通的一個機制我們有這個因為這個憑證的機制是中華電信為主那我們有在跟我們去了解所以第一個就是說我們第一個擔心的是說這個現在發生這個問題會不會影響到政府的治安現在的因為我們有雙憑證制度所以不會影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14020.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14047.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那民間企業的這些憑證中華電信會負責幫忙做過度的轉換所以這個也不會受影響那至於說中華電信未來是不是能夠重新拿到發憑證的權利這個是我所關心的所以我有跟中華電信高層講說他們要努力然後可能要不斷的讓我知道他們的進展我們希望是中華電信能夠在比如說明年的3月以前重新拿回發憑證的權利這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14050.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14075.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這個速發部到時候也會協助跟甚至陪同中華電信跟Google來進行會議我們會去了解然後當然我們能夠幫忙跟溝通我們會去溝通那我這次還是在對這個部分還是希望速發部能夠換一個角度那當然說這主要是中華電信跟Google他們在企業的問題但是因為速發部平常跟Google的互動跟聯繫那這個頻率 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14077.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14100.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
還真的強度是比中華電信還要強那如果說今天來講速發部能夠在於一個主動積極一個政府的角度來協助中華電信還來取得這個憑證的話我相信會更有效果那所以也期待部長跟速發部這邊能夠更主動的還主導的能夠介入來協助這個認證因為是保護我們全民治安好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14109.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14127.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
好 謝謝 請王宏威委員好 謝謝主席我請一下我們今天有來的資策會副執行長請資策會副執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14142.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14146.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
今天我們談的題目非常大就是我們怎麼樣去推動我們的AI產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14147.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14172.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那資策會當年是由李國廷先生他所創辦的當時 今天的你們主管機關經濟部沒有來資策會長期以來都是怎麼樣來推進我們的資訊產業政策還有我們促進產業發展現在這AI產業非常重要但是現在的資策會 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14175.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14197.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
淪為賴清德總統的一個親信的的一個藏身的場所當然今天執行長也沒有來你是副執行長副執行長您自己是台南市政府法治處處長秘書處處長出身你的專長是法律吧是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14200.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14225.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
不是說在資策會裡面不應該有法律相關的人才但是我現在給大家看一看攤開來現在的資策會的人士裡面大家就可以看到這種酬庸有多麼的嚴重而且幾乎都集中在過去賴清德總統擔任台南市政府時代的人馬包含你們現在的AI研究院的院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14226.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14248.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
他雖然頂著所謂的資管博士台灣資管博士你到路上也是一把抓他的經歷是什麼呢主要是南台科大的助教然後就是台南市政府研考會的主委其他沒有沒有其他任何相關的有關於跟資策會資訊產業相關的資歷了還有更離譜的叫做吳唐成 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14254.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14282.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
他擔任資策會的資深規劃師結果呢 被抓包 去年底被抓包他最愛看的是政論節目啊然後在工作的時候 在這邊睡覺剛才齁 我們裡面也有官員齁 一在睡齁我看你醒了我就不點你名利啊這太離譜了 我們好幾個委員在質詢啊你睡的已經不知道那個什麼 何年何月了這個吳唐晨 在工作的時候睡覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14284.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14302.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
製策會的人看不下去了對外爆料好再來更離譜的有一位叫做曾柏瑜他因為參選民進黨新北市的議員落選然後去擔任製策會的資安科技研究所國際合作總監那你知道他的資歷是什麼呢他學什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14313.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14319.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
社會學系社會學系去擔任資安科技研究所國際合作總監 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14322.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14345.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那我想請問一下我們現在黃仲明董事長我剛才說了資策會過去是李國鼎先生創辦的那很多的歷任的部長包含黃仲明董事長前一任他最後很倒楣他本來任期應該到2026提前讓他走路只是為了讓黃仲明當董事長前一任叫做李世光他擔任過經濟部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14346.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14364.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
過去資策會董事長裡面很多都是經濟部長卸任來擔任資策會董事長這一位黃仲明董事長他有什麼背景呢又來了新外資友會台南分會會長行政院政務顧問台南市政府市政顧問 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14366.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14392.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那我請問,不執行長,董事長來了之後認為董事長都是無薪的,所以他要求要有薪水所以請問一下,現在政策會給新任的董事長薪水了嗎?有給有給,一個月多少錢?這個是董事會通過的董事會通過,當然通過啊,他要求,當然通過,過去另一任董事長都是沒有拿薪水的,但是我剛講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14393.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14419.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
委員我們過去也有專任的董事長他是給付薪水的好那現在你們黃宗明你們給付他多少薪水一個月董事會的薪酬委員會有沒有超過院長有沒有超過現在的五院的院長薪水沒有我們本來就有限制不能夠超過那個部會首長那現在是多少呢沒有超過部會首長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14423.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14440.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我要講的是你們現在未來再禁用已經藏了這麼多資策會我覺得不應該淪落成一個政治性酬庸的地方而且怎麼如此的集中全部都是過去台南市政府任職的 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14440.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14450.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我不是說在台南市政府認知不好但是我剛才講了這麼多如此的集中合理嗎我們還要發展什麼樣AI產業這次會未來對於我們AI產業的發展還能有什麼貢獻呢好時間暫停一下對不起我想請速發部部長利用一點點時間好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14464.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14484.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
部長有一個也很重要的問題剛才大家講了很多中華電信的數位憑證不被認證但是最近還發生了一個就是很多公民營銀行通通拒絕暫停使用自然人民證自然人民證使用的其實非常廣泛很多人拿來報稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14487.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14501.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
很多人拿來去做銀行的開戶數位帳戶那所以現在連公民銀行這還包含我們的公股銀行喔都對自然人憑證是暫停使用請問一下這個你們有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14502.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14530.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
這個不是對自然憑證不信任而是說我們過去有很多人把自然憑證跟密碼交給詐騙集團所以他們用自然憑證跟密碼去開的這個詐騙帳戶是因為這樣關係所以暫時把它停止但是現在要求就是說以後你要開戶你要用video就是說確定是那個人不要說假的不是說不要借給人家所以重點是在以前民眾把自然憑證跟密碼交給詐騙集團這件事情造成這個目前銀行暫停的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14531.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14551.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
但是他是全面暫停啊部分銀行暫停但是我沒有我的意思這些銀行就是全面暫停自然人民的暫停因為有很多人把自然憑證借給詐騙集團然後給了帳號密碼給了密碼所以我覺得這個是我們一直在宣傳說自然人憑證現在因為他可以開帳戶可以開銀行那個當然是詐騙行為而因此而變成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14552.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14566.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
現在這麼多銀行暫停使用所以現在有改進措施就是說你要開戶用自然憑證開戶的時候同時要做video conference就是說你要你要在跟銀行的行員還是要面對面的去開戶不能夠只是拿個憑證然後因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14568.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14569.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這就是我們的數位大退步啦因為我們過去你開湖要拿雙屏陣然後要拍照但是後來就是有這種數位屏陣現在就是又倒退回倒退回我們的時期時代的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14584.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14607.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
以後會用指紋 比如說FIDO用指紋辨識就是自然評證還是加指紋 這可能是我們以後要推動但是以目前的自然評證就是要確認本人就是看影像以後可能要去做影像辨識也可以就是說你要確定是那個人用這張卡片才不會說我卡片被別人偷走或者帳號被偷走做一些不法的事情 這個是目前遇到的問題不是自然評證本身的問題所以這個又變成回過頭來還是因為詐騙的關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14611.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14628.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
詐騙集團在欺騙在借自然人憑證去開人口戶可是這使得我們很多自然人憑證其他的使用人沒有被詐騙的最後也沒有辦法使用但是還是要有防堵的方式就是像用影片就是用影像辨識來辨識日本人好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14639.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14641.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
蘇欽群 蘇欽群 蘇欽群委員不在所以現在請何欽群委員好 謝謝張偉 我們請黃部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14663.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14668.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
剛剛在講到自然人憑證我們雖然是數位大國但是呢阻絕詐騙最重要網路的詐騙到現在還橫行那甚至我們國人對於這個詐騙這個行為是深惡痛絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14683.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14708.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
所以我們才有所謂的打炸國家隊那這個國家隊裡面重中之重又是我們的數位發展部被期待最多所以第一個剛剛講的治安人憑證所謂的很多我們現在在行政單位跟我們國人習以為常的這些數位的一個工具那如何能夠讓他第一個治安防護做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14709.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14725.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛講數位的工具被濫用怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14725.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14740.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14741.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14758.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然辨識使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14759.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14776.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對 銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論 討論出結果了嗎就是那自然平證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14785.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14807.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14809.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14836.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們呢在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是呢我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14837.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14843.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14857.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14885.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙團也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14886.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14895.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
對不對 但我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊對 所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力 我再給你看一下 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14898.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14924.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那個 上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢 其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊呢 揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰一百萬開罰一百萬 我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢 我看到法令規定是五十到一千萬結果你只挑了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14925.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14952.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平台想不想聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14953.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14981.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14984.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15009.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們是在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5% |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15010.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15017.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
就是在你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Beta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15031.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15047.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講光是 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15047.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15067.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15071.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15099.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的而且是六月份這個月才指出來的那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15099.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15120.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
實名制有符合啊 是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的TRADE到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
15126.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15136.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近2000案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近2000案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15151.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15171.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15174.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15180.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在討論啦不然你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15188.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15215.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面也有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15216.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15220.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15227.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15255.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
還在求證當中是 不可以這樣啦 不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程 我們會盡快啦這個確實是 我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體 平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦 上個禮拜的事情啦好不好 委員這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程 這個流程那早點把這個東西看要如果要納管要早點納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15256.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15280.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月?你還要一個月內?都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知一定的規模你也告訴我有喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15283.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15300.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15302.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15326.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有延伤啦連求證這個案個案數字你都還沒有求證啦所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啦部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15327.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15331.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那最後你剛剛講的除了這個TRADE的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15350.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15374.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦 只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15376.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15395.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡 巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發 舉發了之後呢 當然需要有認定需要認定了之後 認定了之後 他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管 你們會去通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15396.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15420.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
但是通知了之後 如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說 不會 譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息 已通知FB移除但是我要問的是 到底有沒有移除 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15421.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15446.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15448.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15467.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個社長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15470.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15481.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
OK 如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15485.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15514.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15514.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15529.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
Meta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15530.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15556.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15557.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15582.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放城市的API讓我們能用城市的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15583.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15600.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15617.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15633.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
現在麥玉珍 麥玉珍 麥玉珍委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在徐欣穎 徐欣穎 徐欣穎委員不在現在登記質詢委員 經理發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢問完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15636.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15650.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請書法部盡速以書面答覆本日會議結束散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15651.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15652.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15682.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15683.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
自己自己自己一心發揮做夢 |