| IVOD_ID |
16757 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16757 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-16T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-16T14:22:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:51:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce4d03726cc18a5b0ad9f551ce5fa921f8b19dddded0b194f4faa93180b305b2a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、法務部廉政署率所屬相關單位列席就「鑑於近來矯正監所暴力衝突事件頻傳，如何維護『矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線』及相關獄政策進作為，包括提升戒護人力資源」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、繼續併案審查
（一）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一條文修正草案」案。
三、審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「監察院國家人權委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。
【6月16日及18日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 14:22:00 |
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1113.183 |
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1129.569 |
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到底對... |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1795.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1805.754 |
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報告委員會初期委員八人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好我們開始現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1806.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1824.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年6月2日星期一上午9時3分至12時35分6月4日星期三上午9時至下午1時22分6月5日星期四上午9時至下午1時47分 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1825.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1842.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等13人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等13人列席官員6月2日審計部副審計長李順寶等人6月4日司法院副秘書長王眠英等人6月5日考試院秘書長劉建新等人主席吳釗祺吳文忠縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1844.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1870.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
6月2日報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請監察院秘書長等率所屬相關單位列席就如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職之台樣與方式進行專題報告並備質詢本日會議有委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢委員林倩琦提出書面質詢決定一 報告及尋找完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員基本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1871.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1886.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
6月4日報告事項,邀請司法院副秘書長等率所屬相關單位列席就法官如何判死,包括被害影響陳述、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查及現行司法15如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因此進行專題報告並備質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1893.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1907.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
決定 報告及詢答完畢 討論事項 病安審查委員賴世寶等20人擬據中華民國刑法第286條條文修正草案等11案本日會議有委員黃國昌等14人提出質詢 委員張志倫您欠其提出書面質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1908.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1935.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
決議一 報告及尋討完畢 進行逐條審查二 第77條不予修正維持性行條文三 第271條及286條均保留 送院會處理四 本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告貼 請院會公決 須交由黨團協商院會討論時 由吳釗綺委員中心出席說明條四 引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語 授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1936.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1956.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
6.委員執行時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關尽速宣交各別委員及本會6月5日討論事項,並按審查考試院海經審議公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案等7案繼續並按審查委員李燕秀等18人領據公務人員任用法第36條之1條文修正草案等2案 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1957.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1986.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本日會有委員黃國昌等十二人提出質詢決議一公務人員保障法等其案一報告及詢討完畢進行逐條審查第一條第十八條第二十條第二十二條第二十四條第二十四條之一及第八十九條均不予修正為之進行調文第十九條除修正第二項外與照考試院提案通過修正文字享入議事錄增進第十九條之一修正文字享入議事錄增進第十九條之二修正文字享入議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1988.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2005.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
增訂委員林月琴等31人提案第19條之3及委員徐信英等27人提案第84條之4均不予增訂第21條照考試院提案通過第102條除增訂第三項外其餘照考試院提案通過第三項修正文字降入議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2006.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2031.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
修正第104條修正文字祥如一時露本案審查環境一具審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳昭吉委員中線出席說明公務人員用法等二案進行逐條審查第28條之一保留從院會處理第36條之一除修正第一項第一款第二幕外余昭委員李燕秀等18人提案通過修正文字祥如一時露 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2032.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2054.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本案審查完據擬計審核報告提醒院會公決需交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳兆琦委員中線出席說明以上額外之條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理三委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員基本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2064.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2088.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
請問各位,就上次的會議事務有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有的話,那議事務確定我們先介紹道場委員跟醫藥列席官員先介紹道場委員、王洪威委員、黃國昌委員、王逸川委員接著我們介紹道場官員監察院副秘書長、王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2090.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2106.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
國家人權委員會執行秘書、州秘書法務部部長、政部長小政署署長、州署長法務部廉政署署長、縫署長司法院刑事廳理聽長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2115.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2126.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次會議為兩天一次會本日議程除了進行專題報告並備質詢外討論事項排審兩岸分別為 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2130.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2157.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
繼續併案審查許曉欣等17人離聚監察院組織法第3條之一及3條之二修正草案等兩案及審查許曉欣等22人離聚監察院國家人權委員會組織法第3條條文修正草案會議程序依例先進行提案說明及報告好我們先請提案人王委員洪威進行報告進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2165.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2183.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
主席還有各位委員以及與會的官員那麼我提出來的監察院組織法第3條之一的修正主要就是讓未來監察委員的任命能夠去除有關於相關的政治性的干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2184.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2211.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那大家都知道監察院是最高的監察機關照理講它應該對於整治官僧而且呢對於行政單位行使彈劾究舉跟審計權可是過去我們可以看到很多的案件監察院很多是在社會大眾有高度疑慮的一些弊案甚至都是高高舉起輕輕放下 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2213.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2229.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
譬如說像操司雞蛋或者是新竹棒球場案那麼我想在最近大家最有印象的是有關於陳忠彥的一個涉嫌接受性招待案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2230.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2253.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在監察院的報告裡面其實敘述的非常非常的詳盡而且這些的資料有些事事實上在檢調的辦案的過程裡面都沒有被披露的可是在最後竟然呢又是高高舉起輕輕放下而且呢是用一個壓倒性的票數最後對陳忠業沒有做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2256.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2259.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我們都認為這樣子的一而再 再而三對於社會高度矚目的案件監察院卻沒有辦法本於全責能夠幫我們做把關所以我們在整個的監察委員的現在的來源部分大家可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2275.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2292.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
幾乎都是政治人物出身非常非常多所以我在這邊提出了我們監察院組織法的第三條之一的修正其中對第一項第一款承認立法委員一任以上或直轄市議員兩任以上身遇著住者我把它予以刪除老師說啦對我個人來講我想這應該算是一個自公條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2304.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2320.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
過去很多大家都說是自肥但是我覺得像這樣子每次你的立法委員做一做或者是議員做一做那可能選不上了或者是另有安排然後就去安排到去做監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2322.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2337.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以使得我們現在的監察院變成立法委員的另外的一個養老院不是嗎而又沒有辦法去發揮你在原來在政治工作上你對於政治的判斷然後你對於政治的堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2341.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2364.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
另外我也把第六款提到有關於青年正職富有政治經驗的 我也把它刪除因為像這種青年正職 老實說啦 這個都是形式上的話沒有一個人當他要被領選的時候 他不會說他是不青年不正職的另外富有政治經驗者 這個也使得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2365.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2369.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
又坐實了監察委員用所謂的富有政治經驗者然後呢又做了政治性的酬庸而且我們現在也可以看到包含一些派系都或者徒子徒孫或者是你的這個先進那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2384.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2386.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他比較這個已經做過委員了然後呢又把他放到監察委員去所以我們在這邊呢是希望透過這樣的修法能夠降低未來我們整個監察院的一個他的一個政治任命 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2401.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2405.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
當然有人會說 現在立法院不是正在要準備廢除監察院嗎那這個它基本上是要經過修憲的程序但是在我們完成這個修憲程序之前我們還是認為應該在我們的監察院的組織法裡面把這些我們過去所詬病的這些政治性的任命把它予以刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2430.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2441.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
還給監察院一個他事實上真的可以獨立公正他來做這個相關的調查跟行使他的一個彈劾糾舉的權利以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接著我們請機關報告那我們請機關代表針對專案內容及法案進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2455.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2465.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那尋答時候就採綜合尋答 每位發言人三分鐘首先我們先請法務部長 政部長報告接著下一位再麻煩監察院副秘書長準備 謝謝 政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2472.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2487.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會就鑒於近年矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳若維護矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線及相關預證設定作為包括提升業務人力資源代表本部提出報告並備諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2489.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2515.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那近來集齊矯正機關內部的暴力事件引發社會關注也凸顯我國矯正體系在人力設施及制度面臨多重的壓力與挑戰矯正機關不只是收容管理的場域更是協助收容能重返社會預防災犯的重要環節因此我們一直強調矯正是刑事司法最後一道防線本部持續以強化專業訓練補充專業能力科技輔助等方式推動策進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2516.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2545.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那以下就則要說明 敬請各位委員指教那目前假裝機關整體收容操作比例雖不到1%但是操作性主要集中在北部的監所如台北看守 台北女子看守所 桃園監獄等借物人力比14年4月底假裝機關借物人力比約為1比11.14相較美國 日本 新加坡及韓國五國假裝機關面臨借物人力嚴重不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2546.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2548.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
致使勤務負擔加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2549.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2578.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
面對收容高風險與多樣化的一個特性借物人力除需要具備管理能力更需要臨場應變自我防護能力那矯正署持續精進職權與在職教育包含模擬突發事件集體暴力處置等事務演練並納入壓力調適心理健康等課程以提升第一線人員的處置能力與職業生涯那本部積極向行政院爭取人力106人到11 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2579.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2601.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
一年合計請爭913人希望能夠解決能力不足的一個困境那本部督導矯正署推動智慧矯正政策導入AI監控行為模式辨識等系統提升異常行為預警能力讓潛在衝突提早識別及早介入以舒緩執勤的一個壓力那經過司法矯正心理 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2603.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2629.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
處域的專業本部持續爭取矯正機關心理社工各管人員的專業人力的編制原理提供促進矯正機關專業化及個別化的一個發展那本部需深知矯正機關的安全與秩序是整體刑事司法體系對穩定運作的一個基石我們向以上三大面向來加強前端防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2630.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2643.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
措施穩定求情降低介護的安全維護預責安全以上幫我敬請主席各位委員指教好謝謝那下一位我們請監察院副秘書長王副秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2654.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2680.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好很榮幸邀到貴委員會來說明委員徐曉新等17人所拟據的監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的修正草案委員王弘威等17人所拟據的監察院組織法第三條之一條文修正草案以及委員徐曉新的22人所拟據的監察院國家人權委員會組織法第三條的條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2682.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2707.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
監察院的組織法是在民國36年3月31號經過制定公布的期間經過11次的修正本次委員所提的修正的條文三條之一的部分前夕因應81年憲法增修條文修正監察院的定位那監察院已經不是民意機關為了因應憲政體制的運作原參照 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2708.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2723.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
司法院組織法考試院組織法規範大法官及考試委員的資格增訂了監察委員資格的條文以為總統提名的依據並於八十一年十一月四號修正公佈接下來是因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2724.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2749.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
監察院國家人權委員會的設置在於第一項的第七款增訂關於具備人權專業背景的監察委員的資格條件並配合限制將第一項的第一款所謂中央民意代表修正為立法委員省市議員修正為直轄市議員以及第一項的第二款檢任司法官修正為本縫十二級以上的法官及檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2751.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2780.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
本次委員提的修正案監察院的意見如下第一點是有關於監察院組織法第三條之一第一項第一款到第六款監察委員的資格前夕依應是因為憲法增修條文的修正修正了監察院的定位為了充分發揮監察功能原參照修憲的理由由社會各界具有親望以及富有專業素養經驗的人士來出任監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2781.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2803.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
經過了再三的斟酌以及立法院的廣泛討論以後才制定的相關的條文都有助於廣納協視而且相關的經驗也對於監察委員來行使監察職權有正面的注意第二點是我們依照總統之文來整理第四屆第五屆第六屆監察委員所適用的款別 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2804.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2818.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第四屆監察委員第一款及第六款所提名資格的人數為6人3人第五屆是5人7人第六屆是5人及4人合計各佔比例是31%、41%及32% |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2822.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2843.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
上開第六款提名的總統之文的內容我們很難盡以判斷上開人員的提名資格總統是就該條的構成要件是擇一考量還是中可考量不過如果刪除了該款部分的要件會限縮總統的提名權 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2844.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2868.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第三呢有關於未使監察委員要超脫黨派那增訂了第三條之二的第一項第二項所謂消極資格的限制的部分憲法徵求條文第七條第五項監察委員必須超出黨派以外依據法律獨立行職權另外監察院監察委員自律規範第二條也有相關條文的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2869.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2875.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
規定所以是無需再新增這樣子的一個消極資格的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2876.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2896.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那另外呢 三條之二的第二項 明定十年之內如果有參加政黨或者是政治活動者不得為監察委員的部分由於修正的草案並沒有明確界定所謂參與任何政治活動的定義跟他的範疇在實務執行上恐有認定摯愛跟查證困難這樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2900.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2927.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第四次監察院的國家人權委員會組織法第三條的修正草案是完全依據監察院組織法三條之一來修正的款次就原請並同考量感謝會員對本院的支持以上報告敬請參考謝謝好謝謝蜂蜜署長其餘提出書面報告機關有口頭補充沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2930.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2954.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好 就案代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答由於詢答後接續進行法案審查依例本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時為4分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記發言第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2962.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2989.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩有請監察院副秘書長、法務部部長兩位早,先請教監察院的副秘陳菊上任監察院院長的時候說 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2991.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3000.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
他要當末代監察院院長請問這一屆的監察院對於自己成為末代的監察院做了什麼準備有做準備嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3003.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3029.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
跟委員說明我們監察院在這一屆跟前的歷屆都是相同的就是非常中緊的來行使監察職權我問的是說陳菊說要成為末代監察院院長那你們這個末代監察院對於自己成為末代監察院做了什麼準備你有這個目標就要開始準備啦還是只是隨便嘴巴講一講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3031.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3059.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
還是很練戰很想做肩尾又肥又香怎麼可能會成為末代對於自己成為末代監察院做了什麼準備沒有準備就老實講沒有準備就好了嘛有做任何準備嗎行使監察職權而已你剛剛搖頭是沒有做準備是不是我們在行使監察職權好來第二個陳菊也說未來監察院會更超然公正有更超然公正嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3061.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3086.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
有嗎?監察院一向超然公正監察院一向超然公正來你敢講一堆台灣人民聽不下去線型的條文啊監察委員的資格說要清廉正職啊好來看一下這樣有清廉正職嗎?用公務車去看牙醫送寵物送親友 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3089.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3106.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
來請監察院告訴我們全台灣人民監察院的標準這樣是清廉正直嗎是不是這樣是不是你剛口中所講的清廉正直超然中立是嗎跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3107.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3134.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
有關於這個案件那監察院依據副院長的指示已經移到監察院的紀律委員會裡面去處理這兩碼指示嘛有沒有符合清廉正職的標準是一回事接下來怎麼處理另外一回事嘛這樣有清廉正職嗎他不敢講這些都是你的長官都是我們的玉石大夫不敢講是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3138.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3151.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
委員我們已經依據副院長的指示然後依據人民數量來我們來看一看啊你所問副院長的指示啊要調查嘛調查進度如何什麼時候調查結果監察院有發新聞稿對5月28號嘛立即啟動調查嘛那現在調查的進度如何誰在調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3167.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3175.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
目前就是依照人民數量處理辦法的規定把相關的陳情案移到紀律委員會去處理紀律委員會現在有開會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3179.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3207.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有關於紀律委員會的部分呢因為依照他的設置辦法跟他的任務原則上他不是一個定期會是所以咧現在有開會嗎不管是定期不定期我只關心一件事情開會沒有是那他會根據因為對不起請你針對問題回答開會沒有他會根據相關的議案跟委員的時間所以他開會沒有目前還沒有目前還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3208.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3230.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
哇 很會欺騙社會喔感覺好像很有魄力喔立即啟動調查結果是多立即啊5月28號說立即啟動調查結果到現在連會都還沒開喔監察院的立即 原來是這麼立即啊讓人嘆為觀止啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3232.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3259.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
打算什麼時候開還是沒有要開不打算要開了知不知道打算什麼時候要開這個紀律委員會他會依據相關的議案的內容還有委員所以打算什麼時候要開不知道因為這是紀律委員會來召開的所以你也不知道什麼時候要開嘛我不是紀律委員會的目的所以整個監察院告訴全體國人的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3260.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3289.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我們的副院長所以立即啟動調查搞到今天紀律委員會都還沒有開喔這是超然公正的監察院還是官官相護的監察院啊這個是正直連的監察院啊還是腐臭不堪的監察院啊我相信全體國人心裡有一把尺啊來接下來請部長延續啊我們上一次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3292.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3315.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
討論的主題我上次請問你啊說民間司改會在2012年有一個追緝二檢的活動我問你說啊現在二檢的問題啊還存在嗎部長 二檢的問題還存在嗎呃 我不曉得那個二檢的一個定義啦是那是 我想我們都會我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請我們都會邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3320.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3335.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
委員你要讓我去解釋嗎是來請解釋那個我想這個二檢這個定義這個是委員提供是2012年現在已經2025年我想這十幾年的一個時間那我想我們檢察機關在保護部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3336.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3360.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
督導之下我們都是在一個要嚴守遵守法律的一個程序啦那執行的職務啦那我想在一個各方面我們都嚴加的督導那能夠合乎檢察官的一些的相關的一個規範好來剛剛你說你不知道什麼是二檢嘛我就秀給你看啊當初監察院是怎麼糾正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3361.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3372.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
當監察院的調查報告2012年他所延續的二檢是怎麼定義的不可以以不當的言語或方式怒罵威嚇受訓文人 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3373.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3401.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
不僅是個人言行不當也嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴也侵害受詢問人人權的保障剛部長說不知道什麼是二檢我就延續的當初2012年追緝二檢監察院所做的調查報告來清楚的告訴部長什麼是二檢這監察院的定義不是我的定義我們上次也看過了不管是刑事訴訟法還是檢察官倫理規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3403.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3430.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
檢察官詢問的時候要以懇切的態度不可以用強暴脅迫利誘詐欺疲勞詢問或其他不正的方式也不可以有笑虐怒罵或歧視的情形這個檢察官有在遵守嗎 部長我們會督導檢察機關會督導嘛 好來 那我們來看一下我們的法務部如何督導你覺得可以這樣呼嚨的話我們就來試試看檢察官可以這樣問案嗎來 請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3433.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3461.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這是黑道恐嚇還是檢察官辦案檢察官可不可以這樣問案那個 跟委員報告齁那這個案件齁 反正案件在我不跟你討論案件的本身啦沒有沒有我只問你檢察官問案的態度你現在是直接講出個案的這些的證詞嘛是那現在這個案件已經在法院審理中了沒錯那我們要尊重法院審理的時間我一定尊重法院我現在問的是檢察官可以這樣問案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3462.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3463.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
檢查官倫理規範檢查官可以這樣問案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3478.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3496.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那我們現在檢察官的問案都是合乎法律的一個規定所以這樣你也覺得是合乎法律規定是不是這個由法院來認定這個由法院來認定所以檢察官履歷規範是由法院來認定嗎委員你講的這個是屬於證據能力跟證據證明度的問題那這個現在已經是案件審理中的這個是證據證明度的問題喔好沒有關係沒有關係我等一下秀給你看我等一下秀給你看來我們先來複習一下來看一下當初啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3506.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3517.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
游伯祥是怎麼講的啊現任司法院大法官啊徵訊是發生不法情事啊公眾本來就有知的權利啊來 部長 贊不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3520.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3544.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
站不贊成?這個是司法改革十週年紀念系列座談會我想這個要廣納意見大家的意見都不一樣嘛那我想這對這五個大法官的看法所以公開播放真訊光碟部長 站不贊成?我們可不可以公開播放真訊光碟這部分我想在外國的立法律都是不允許 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3545.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3548.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我的大法官游伯祥告訴全台灣人的啊我為了要逃離侏羅紀啊所以要公開播放真訊光碟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3562.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3589.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
喔好來 那我們再來看羅秉成說公開徵訊光碟有何不可羅秉成說公開徵訊光碟有何不可來 部長 讚不讚成這個我不讚成 這個目前來講這個理不讚成喔 那奇怪囉民進黨當上大官行政院政務委員負責處理法律案的都說公開播放徵訊光碟有何不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3590.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3607.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們的游伯祥說為了逃離侏羅紀所以公開播放徵訊光碟部長的立場跟他們都不一樣這事我們不贊成你不贊成喔我不贊成哇 那你們現在民進黨整個執政的標準讓人家覺得很錯亂喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3608.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3613.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
在野的時候直接公開播放光碟啊所以我說嘛民進黨執政前執政後差很多啦好那以現在的法律來規範的話公開播放徵訊光碟公開播放徵訊光碟請問到底犯了什麼法請教部長只有個資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3639.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3660.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那你各自法你還要洩露各自還有各自法的問題嗎如果沒有洩露各自會違反國民法官法有相當的那個還要有國民法官制度的適用嘛我們一般職業法官審理的公開播放徵序光碟違反什麼法來請教部長我們認為是有各自法國民法對嘛那還要涉及到各自嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3661.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3685.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
如果公開播放徵訊光碟是檢察官辱罵受訓問人恐嚇他什麼叫辱罵什麼叫恐嚇來今天部長問到了重點什麼叫辱罵什麼叫恐嚇來我放給部長聽看部長覺得這是不是辱罵是不是恐嚇這個不要去公開這個屬於那個徵訊光碟不要去公開的一個播放好來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3687.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3693.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個委員你要不要利用之後再質詢他們從來不找你,還是107年後開始不找你?107年以後開始不找我那不叫從來,從來是一次都沒有過 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3704.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3719.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
你在講什麼啊朱先生我們敬重你是朱將軍喔你自己聽聽你的話對得起你自己曾經有過的那顆心嗎你在講什麼顛三倒四的你在對什麼喔你在耍我是不是你退出小組內部小腿的你到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3720.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3740.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你自己說你退出啦你說你107年退出啦對對對好啦你不要講那麼多好不好我有說你參加新華城的開會嘛你在玩什麼文字遊戲你自己要想清楚我們今天找你第三次來開庭的你之前兩天你都覺得你講什麼我們都順順的讓你回家你覺得今天還會這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3741.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3762.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
你不要再跟我講那些有的沒的,什麼沒有管過這個你明明都在管,你這一臉說瞎話這是中華民國的新興將軍嗎?因為你是將軍我才會生氣如果你是一個市井小民,你是一個販夫走卒,沒什麼好生氣的我敬重你是將軍喔!結果你在講什麼話?我聽你,我想多講一點點你不覺得你已經講很多,你都不累喔?啊?有沒有違反檢察官履歷規範? |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3769.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3794.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我想這個個案認定啦齁這樣也要個案認定沒有關係嘛我今天放出來給全體國民個案認定嘛這也是在處理釐清的案情的一個所以現在法務部部長是鼓勵全國檢查當時也這樣問案喔我要求是要遵守法律的一個剛剛這一段的錄音違反了什麼個資法請教部長這個我不清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3794.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3823.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
現在我只問你態度嘛你怎麼會拿出這個真訊光碟出來在國會議堂上這樣播放咧我老實跟部長講這個不是真訊光碟啦那是審理光碟嗎這個不是真訊光碟啦這是什麼光碟我不清楚啦不是啊 所以我只要問你嘛檢察官可以這樣問案嗎我沒有落入任何個案啊我也沒有說這是真訊光碟啊你剛剛說你不知道什麼叫恐嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3825.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3831.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
不知道什麼叫細虐所以我就放示範帶給你聽嘛在你們法務部的地理裡面這是不是恐嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3838.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3847.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
但是我相信不要提出來再直接加整個一個證訊的內容來做這個就不是我老實就跟你講嘛我老實就跟你講嘛這就不是證訊光碟嘛所以你認為如果發生這樣的狀況應該要送個案評鑑對不對如果有的話嘛有人來那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3866.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3870.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
來請求那我們就來處理嘛我最後只講一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3871.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3898.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
民進黨執政前跟執政後的標準對司法改革的看法對侏羅紀公園的看法對公開徵訊光碟的看法真的是180度髮夾彎拿到權力了以後墮落成這個樣子所有的人通通都可以清楚形成自己客觀的評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3900.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3928.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這樣子的問案方式我們的部長還背書喔我沒有背書你沒有背書喔我從來沒有背書我是督導我是站在督導的腳我是督導這個檢察那個整個真的有在督導嗎還是在鼓勵我沒有在鼓勵委員你不能這樣講這種話齁那個那個那個我還在督導我們檢察官在在整個一個政法的任務作為要合乎到法律的規定全體國人等一下全體國人就接下來看嘛你身為法務部部長要如何督導嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3930.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3958.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好 謝謝不要去干涉什麼個案的一些審理或是證據能力的問題啦謝謝 那下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請這一個矯正署麻煩矯正署署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3963.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3980.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
委員好署長好我看你們的報告說目前各矯正機關的人力很缺乏我這樣講對嗎目前確實人力比較吃緊那是沒有人要去報考是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3982.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4008.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我們的離職率也有一部分雖然來報考受訓但是他可能不太適應這個環境然後請求商調或辭職的也有那報考的資格是什麼我們報考的資格要分三等跟四等一般高中畢業40歲以內的可以報考四等那薪水多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4009.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4036.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
薪水應該我們在訓練期間是用三職等來續薪大概比較少一點但是如果正式任用大概有五萬左右含所有的這個家籍有安慰第二個這幾個矯正器官的人力有沒有地域上的差異缺額的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4038.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4062.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
矯正機關的人力當然要看它的核定收容額那以我們前台這樣來講我們目前缺額是709名不是 我不是講整體我是說 譬如說嘉義跟台北比起來嘉義的離職率會不會比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4066.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4092.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
離職率的部分我們是做前台的統計啦那每一個機關他為什麼會有離職率可能有個人的規劃的問題很難講說哪一個機關的離職率會比較高因為我們知道像這個景霄啊景霄在雙北地區啊勤務繁重所以現在蠻多這個員警啊希望往中南部 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4095.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4112.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那他們就開始比他們的分數啦 各式各樣 然後就開始找民意代表看能不能調回去自己的故鄉 南部 情務比較輕一點在北部每天都很緊張 那北部的單位也不同意放人我們現在這個矯正機關有這樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4117.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4139.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們一般跟委員報告在中南部報考管理員的比較多所以一般我們是在東部地區是一年可以請掉西部地區是要一年半就才可以請掉那所以一般在西部來講他每隔兩年大概是北部的機關會 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4141.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4149.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
缺額比較多 因為他們都請調回去中南部對嘛 所以我講的嘛 就是跟他的這個勤務應該有關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4151.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4172.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
勤務我們都是隔日制都是一樣那所謂的加班會是一樣但是在我所了解的在能夠回到中南部大概他們就會穩定下來但是有一些人他在北部回不了中南部他有可能會傷掉比如說婚禮幹事等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4173.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4191.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
就是商調啊 商調不成就找人家來看可不可以幫忙調啊因為這種情況這情況應該蠻多的啦 就是他先考上了嘛那考上希望回中南部會比較工作量感覺沒有那麼大啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4192.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4208.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
是 是 各位我們有考量這個問題所以在調動困難的地方比如說桃園女子監獄 台北女子看守所我們會有一個加權就是說它每服務滿一年它可以乘以1.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4210.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4237.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那有些地方是每服務滿一年就乘以一他是一分而已所以我們是鼓勵北部雖然比較不容易調回去中南部但是他來北部的機關服務他的加錢分數會比較高讓他能夠早點回去那裡面這裡頭的這個管理員跟這些這個收容人或者是這些我們叫犯人好了就這一些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4238.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4259.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
之間的這一個就是說如果發生了衝突我們的管理員這些相關的人的能力就是說要處理這些衝突的這個能力現在在訓練上到底出了什麼問題所以現在看起來好像這些收容的這些人或者對矯正這些人我們想要不要怕管理員不然我們會怕他 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4264.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4278.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
跟委員報告我們管理人員他必須考訓用先經過考試在我們署裡面訓練還有在矯正機關實習才能夠風發任用所以他 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4280.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4304.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
數值一般來講都還可以 我們有統計過大部分有七成是大專畢業的也有少數 比如說大概將近有個位數也是研究所畢業你叫研究所去管這個收容的授信那沒辦法 坐到坐到沒辦法我現在講的是會遇到衝突的時候就是說這樣的訓練 不是說他的學士上的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4305.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4321.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以我們相關的一些危機處理我們都會加強但是問題在於是說有一些收容人他是有反社會人格有時候他上一秒鐘表現都很正常他突然 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4321.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4343.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
在你不注意的時候攻擊你也有可能比如說釘腳療的時候我們管理員跟他釘腳療會俯身他就利用這個你俯身的時候出錢攻擊你所以我們都會告知我們 告警我們要小心這個部分我們會加強注意所以你們對這個裡面的每一個收容人的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4345.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4370.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
應該要不斷的更新嘛才不會讓我們的管理員面臨到危機那這部分都怎麼做我們一般就是有職權訓練還有包括說他的在職訓練這個是在我們數不數數端不是 我不是說管理員我是說對這些收容人他的狀況啦他的狀況 譬如說這個熊熊會走起來 這個是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4372.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4397.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
就這些狀況你們會怎麼樣去做更新就是說這些作業你總是要讓這個管理員在面對這些人的時候知道說我現在要去用的這一位不像你剛剛講說要上這些相關的借據的時候他可能會把他兇刑 把他通緝嘛我們會要求 各位委員會要求各機關有所謂的應變演習 武器處理包括怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4398.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4414.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
工廠有一些供給事件發生我們要在幾分 一分鐘之內要到場 然後相關的處理我們都你講的都是事後啦 我是說事前啦這管理員跑去 畢哥你剛剛講說要上借據的時候嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4415.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4432.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
啊上街去可能會被人家攻擊嘛那我管理員搞不清楚啊我新來的啊我新來的學長說叫我去用那個我就去啊叫我轉播的人都知道那個很危險啊怕這個新同學新的管理員他不知道啊這個怎麼樣讓這一些管理員也能夠掌握說 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4433.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4451.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
這些個別收容人的這些情緒的狀況對 這個是很重要我們機關對於那些比較特殊的分子我們機關都會內管所以對於有一些比較有問題的收容人我們會請管理員注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4451.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4478.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
比如說要提代接見或提代去看診的時候甚至於介乎萬一我們都會派比較精明概念的而且要有危機意識這個部分我們都有注意好 那辛苦了 人力不夠人事行政總署要倒三天行事也要多 要全序不違不然這個我看很難找到人 尤其是北部做不整天就想要吊 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4479.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4498.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
掉到中南部 這個現實狀況跟很多我們的警消的狀況是一樣 跟它面對的這一個繁重的這個程度那這可能還要再跟人事總處跟這一個全序部包括薪水的部分 大家來看要怎麼樣來做提升好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那下一位我們請陳佩玉委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4515.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4518.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
好 謝謝主席 那有請蔣正署 謝謝好 麻煩署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4523.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4524.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好 署長早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4553.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4577.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
找戰術,我們可能需要一些時間來研議,但是我們一起努力往那個部分改進,這樣好不好?好,因為我等一下很多問題,我認為您可能不見得有辦法第一時間回應喔我們來看一下第一個,在過去這一段時間的新聞,其實這是2024到2025,我們只是簡單的摘錄一些新聞可是如果去分析這些新聞的樣態,我們認為它大概可以分幾個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4577.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4596.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
第一個是受刑人對管理人或者是受刑人對受刑人或者是管理人對受刑人也就是在你們的工作現場所有矯正機關的第一線他所面臨的樣態其實非常非常的複雜不管是暴力事件不管是霸凌事件可是因為樣態非常非常複雜我認為你們應該理應 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4601.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4623.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
對這些不同的樣態就是我剛說的管理員對受刑受刑對管理受刑對受刑應該都有不同的應對之道可不可以請署長簡單回應一下關於這些新聞我們就不要個案討論了但是面對這麼複雜的樣態因為事實上在你們今天的報告裡面我們只看到受刑人對管理人的暴力事件你們有相關的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4625.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4649.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
統計你們有相關的回應可是其他的樣態其實在你們的業務報告裡面都看不到但我認為那是應該是你們現場所會遇見的難題對不對來請署長回應一下報告委員我們對於比如說管理員有零類人患或是是說他縱容適同作業在毆打人患假如有這種情況那 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4652.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4679.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我想這種會引起我們社會的一個疑問甚至於會對於我們矯正的一個整個制度的質疑甚至於會變成對這本人當事人也有行者的問題因此我們要特別注意所謂的外部的監督包括監察院或是地檢署的一些偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4680.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4695.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那這個部分我想我們要用不袒護 誤挽誤重的態度來處理那至於受刑人的部分大部分就是監獄的管理內部的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4696.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4723.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那所以如果有受刑人毆打受刑人這個部分那我們可能要比如說他的工廠或是他的社房要審慎的配業配房至於是說受刑人跟受刑人之間的毆打我們也會跟他詢問你被毆打了你要不要驗傷要不要提告數如果他要提告數一樣我們也會依照規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4725.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4749.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
去移送這個地檢署來偵辦好 所以看起來確實是有一些現象在現場發生的嘛不是沒有所以剛剛署長你才可以回應出這麼多的說法不過看起來 我們來看下一張喔其實不是只有在檢索我們之前安排了考察我們認為如果你從新聞來看或者是如果你回到實務現場邵角校跟邵管所應該也有類似的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4750.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4769.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
如同剛剛署長您說的我們來看下一張監察院其實在110跟114都分別有提出對於矯正署的監督跟有一些建議希望你們有一些改善包含轉嫌輔導啦霸凌文化啦那我認為這些雖然是針對所謂的少角少 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4769.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4795.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
但我們可想而知可能在其他的成人監所也有類似的情況而這個狀況我們往下看這就是我剛跟署長您說的我們來看一下這個我們整理的表格受刑人跟受刑人中間會有霸凌受刑人跟管理員之間會有暴力攻擊事件你剛也舉了一個例子有一個人要去戴戒具戒護的工具結果他被攻擊或者是管理員對於受刑人可能會有不當的管理跟不當的管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4795.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4822.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
還有管理員跟管理員之間可能因為工作現場讓他們有一些個性上的扭曲跟需要協助的心理因素結果不小心導致外在的行為變成職場霸凌而這麼多的樣態我認為矯正署在所有第一線的行政配套如同你剛剛說的應該有非常多需要調整跟改進的地方他可能需要錢他可能需要人而我認為這些事情我們一一來討論來 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4824.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4845.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
暴力跟攻擊的事件這個是來自於你們的業務報告裡面所說的從109年到113年我們看到統計數字我很好奇112年到113年這中間的轉變為什麼變這麼多從43變成75還有我也很好奇從今年114年目前已經6月中至現在為止1月到5月有相關統計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4848.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4866.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
1到5月今年總共有25件供給事件這個是指收容人對職員我們管理人員的供給那我很好奇112到113從43變成75件多增加了1.5倍你們有做相關後續的檢討或者是你們只有做統計數字有 我們有做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4869.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4890.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
在委員提到的113年的暴行案件他確實有比較升高大部分就是反社會人格或是有暴力傾向的這些收容人他不服管教不服管理而對職員施暴那麼他的成因跟其他年度大約是相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4891.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4908.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好那如果你都已經找到原因一個是反社會人格再來是暴力傾向那我們在所謂的矯正機關裡面我們除了希望有所謂的矯正行為教化行為之外我們如何去看待這個事情來看下一張第二個相關統計的數字我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4909.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4937.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我也很好奇這也是在你們的書面報告裡面你們提到關於人員的部分剛剛益川委員已經問了借戶跟教化這邊的缺額其實真的非常巨量缺700多位而且他可能有借調的問題啊派到不同地方去可是我很好奇你們在有一欄的數字相對沒有那麼清楚就是新設人力跟醫事人力你有寫出員額可是所有的缺額你把它放在一起統計原因是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4938.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4947.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
是我們在矯正機構裡面是把新社跟醫事視為是同一種人嗎所以你的缺額統計放在一起還是有什麼原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4948.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4968.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們有去了解那是欄位的問題沒有區分但是我們後來對於新社人員跟醫事人員做一個區分新社人員的大概1比170醫事人員的比例大概所以新社是1比170 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4972.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4990.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
來 更正一下1比186醫事人員比是1比228所以心理社工的人率比醫事人員稍微多一點好 那我問一下缺額呢心社跟醫事的缺額有分別統計嗎因為這完全是不同的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4992.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5021.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們統計缺額的部分沒有但是我們是針對介入人力比有做統計介入人力比那可是如果你沒有個別缺額的統計你怎麼知道你在後續的應聘上你要招哪些人來考這個考試你需要哪些專業人員來佈足你現場的需求因為我們的介入人員管理人員是考試那我們新設人員是聘用我現在叫做約用人員以前是勞務承攬 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5022.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5051.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以他的禁用管道是不一樣但是在新設人力部分我們也是要感謝人總他有給我們175位的A用人員另外我們也謝謝法務部給我們25位就是說合併的A顧人員對於我們新設的輔導人力有一些幫助才對那醫事呢醫事人員這個部分我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5053.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5067.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
他是只要符合資格就是可以來報名包括比如說醫院有一些護士護理師他知道我們簽譽有聘護士他也要來報名 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5068.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5093.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那現在剛剛署長你給我的數字我認為有幾個問題可是我一剛開始就說可能我提出來的問題不是您立刻回可以回答第一個雖然他的禁用管道不是一般所謂教保人員的考試他是約用但是我們真的還是要看現場食物所缺的狀況來決定我們要約用哪些人進來對嗎第二個新設跟醫事目前你剛給我的比例是新設是1比186 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5095.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5107.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
醫護是1比228在這個數字底下你認為是合格的數字嗎是真的有符合現場的需求嗎還是其實是不夠的只是我們可能因為錢不夠人不夠或是找不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5110.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5130.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
當然這個比例上不能說完全足夠因為我們新社人員除了做毒品的輔導還有性侵家暴醫事人員他也是有一些包括病社他們要去做相關的他們的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5135.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5150.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
意思就是說 署長我聽懂了意思就是說不管是毒品性侵假報他其實需要心理師 社工師跟醫護人員在不同專業給予一個受刑人協助而這個受刑人的樣態可能又不是只有單一犯罪樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5151.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5167.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
所以一個受刑人身上可能要綁著非常多專業人員協助他在受刑被矯正的這段期間他有機會更正他的毒品行為性侵的傾向或者是家暴的傾向我們真的希望有機會在裡面做出矯正然後讓他們復歸社會的時候是可以好好的融入這個社會所以為什麼我會問你相關人員跟缺額我認為一定有匱乏 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5175.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5200.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
因為這個數字其實聽起來很驚人1比228跟1比186我認為相關的專業人員的工作量可能loading太重而回到受刑人那一端他們真的需要提出協助的時候可是我們人力也是不夠的所以我想後續這個部分我們再來討論如何協助矯正署在這一塊不管是從受刑人的角度或是從所謂專業人員的角度都各自可以讓那個狀況越來越好後續我們再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5203.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5219.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
感謝人的關心 也請委員多多協助沒問題 這個我們一定會努力協助來 下一個我們要談受刑人對受刑人一樣有相關數字我們依然好奇受刑人對受刑人的相關霸凌或者是相關的暴力行為我們一樣在你們的業務報告裡面沒有看到統計數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5221.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5243.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
或者是現行的調查跟後續的處理機制也就是當受刑人對受刑人有暴力行為的時候在機構裡面怎麼處理然後受刑人會受到哪些懲罰嗎不管是你剛剛說的在配方的部分在工作的部分還有他們暴力行為之後我們如何再把矯正的教育的概念放進去又回到我剛前一張投影片說的專業人力的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5245.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5264.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
然後到最後我們如何預防所有事情不要再次發生我認為它是一連串的問題所以我剛已經說了不過這邊署長要不要簡單回應一下我們如何看從我剛說的受刑人對受刑人啦管理人對受刑人受刑人對管理人管理人對管理人這中間樣派真的很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5266.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5276.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
報告委員我們在五月份有針對我們少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理具體措施我們有這個條文這個法案我們已經從這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5284.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5308.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
114年的6月11號已經生效而且給我們各四所矯正學校那另外我們之前在各矯正機關有所謂的性侵性騷擾還有所謂的性霸凌以及其他欺凌事件其他欺凌事件其實已經有涵掛到所謂的霸凌這邊啦但是他沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5309.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5332.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
矯正機關沒有一個具體的那麼具體的時候叫做霸凌的一個規則但是事實上我們含掛的這個部分都有給我們所屬兼所效來注意該跟地方主管機關通報的我們一定要通報如果有一些隱匿我們甚至會追究機關所長的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5332.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5346.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好 你剛剛講的是繳銷的部分確實在霸凌防制準則從教育部那邊通過之後我們其實就有提醒教育部國教署要積極跟繳證署這邊合作來協助所謂繳繳銷跟關護所的部分可是如同你剛剛說的還有成人的監獄的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5348.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5375.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
但因为我列的问题其实我要问的问题是一样的相关统计数字后续的管理跟后续的教育行为跟后续如何确保不再发生而那个样态我刚刚已经分析给您听了我认为我需要你们的相关资料那当然如果现在没有资料需要更多精进讨论我们未来可以一起努力所以最后我简单几个具体要求我刚刚已经跟你讨论了这么多第一个我们刚刚所有需要的资料要拜托矫正署这边协助第二个 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5376.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5397.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
矯正機關的暴力行為的防範我剛說那個樣態非常多元以對象來分分成這四種我從影片後續可以給矯正署作為參考也要拜託你們積極努力接下來戒護人力的部分還有相關人員的教育訓練也要持續精進最後一個我也很擔心喔我剛之所以會聽到新社人員跟醫護人員就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5398.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5426.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我認為可能是因為薪水的關係可能是因為回家鄉服務的關係但是在監所裡面的管理人員我認為他們的工作心理壓力一定很大我們有沒有適合的心理服務方案去協助這些在監所第一線工作的管理人員我不確定現在有沒有但後續你們可以提供資料給我報告委員我們人事室各機關人事室有所謂員工的關懷的一個方案我們有需要都會透過人事 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5426.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5427.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
接下來我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5456.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5481.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
羅委員代理主席請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩法務部部長還有監察院副秘法務部部長監察院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5489.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5498.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
還有署長謝謝署長 署長下個月就要退休了還是麻煩署長多幫忙我們在小鎮署這一塊 謝謝署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5504.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5514.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那我今天部長這個部分有一個部分因為剛剛我在聽那個洪國昌委員的質詢那當然洪國昌委員說他剛剛放的那個並不是訊問的那個錄音是不是AI生成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5519.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5546.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我不知道我不知道因為他剛剛有特別說明不是喔但是我想說跟因為剛剛部長一直回答說這個是證據能力的問題嘛是法庭法官採不採用我是在主要是在講說徵訊光碟可不可以對外播放還有一些是不是有一些的一些的爭執的問題那當然那個黃國昌委員他是講的那一個這部分他說我們徵訊光碟說徵訊光碟的資料那我說我覺得他這很不妥 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5546.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5573.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那是用不曉得用什麼樣來在這個粉饒室聽我覺得這樣真的是會誤會到我們檢討好排挺態度我的問題不是在這個部長我不是問你這個問題啦我剛剛是在講啦因為我剛剛聽那個那個錄音啦那錄音的口氣真的不好那當然部長剛剛回答是說這個是證據能力的問題未來法官踩不踩那我想說部長你這個你這個就弄錯了因為我國刑事訴訟法98條 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5576.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5598.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
98條寫得非常清楚訊問應出於懇切的態度然後訊問的時候不能強暴脅迫詐欺利誘等等的嘛刑訴法98條講得非常清楚所以如果我們在訊問的時候我們的態度是像剛剛那樣如果剛剛那樣子的訊問的態度基本上他就違反刑訴訴訟法98條那刑訴的98條其實他也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5602.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5620.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
司法警察也適用喔不是只有檢察官所以部長那這一塊就是部長你們可以管的這個就跟所謂的法庭的證據能力是無關的這個齁這個因為他這個這個因為他裡面有寫到那個少秀配的問題這已經他他那個部長部長時間暫停一下好不好而且這個是屬於那個欸主席主席時間先暫停所以這部分齁那個委員齁先暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5629.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5642.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
部長 你要 我的問題 我不問個案我剛剛已經講了那個東西黃國昌已經說不是詢問的那個音頻了不是的 他剛剛已經特別講所以我現在不問個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5643.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5661.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我也不會什麼造就配誰我都不問我現在只是說詢問這個行為依照刑事訴訟法98條要出於懇切的態度而且不得出於強暴脅迫利誘詐欺這是訴訟法的規定那這個部分跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5662.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5677.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
跟證據能力無關啦所以我剛剛是要提醒一下部長你剛剛提證據能力這個不對啦這個沒有什麼不對啦你不要給我凹去個案每次都玩這一套那個大委員所指教的就是屬於那個刑事訴訟法相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5678.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5699.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
訊問被告的一個方式以及那個證據的一個問題那個任意性的一個問題那這邊我們都會督導檢控去做這個請委員放心我要提醒的是說剛剛黃國昌在問的是訊問態度然後您講到證據能力這兩個是不同層次我想念過法律的都懂啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5701.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5719.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
法官踩不踩 證據能力有沒有那這是法官將來他的認定 我們絕對尊重法官但是呢 如果檢察官開庭的時候的口氣像黑道一樣那就不對了 或像仇人就不對了我跟你講 部長 當年我們在當檢察官的時候開庭態度不佳 是會被叫去罵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5720.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5741.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
為什麼今天就不用了我們開庭都會抽查 抽查就一個問卷調查我想我們這個監督力道是很重要的部長 這個不是個案 這個是通案我希望全國的檢察官 他在詢問被告或證人的時候他的態度能夠像刑訴方法98條所規定的明文規定你不能用這種恐嚇大呼小叫這個通案我都是會要求 這個請委員放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5744.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5748.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我剛剛只是順著剛剛的那個問題來請教因為我也有提到這個 那我要講說我現在不太贊成用這種揮那個公開的那個揮那個什麼徵訊光碟這些的資料來這邊我就會引起民眾的誤會部長我認同你就是說不可以在這個立法院公佈啦但是我現在的問題不是這個部長你可以用你自己受訪的時間去講不要在我這邊講 我沒有問過你這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5773.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5781.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我想請教一下複密複密請問一下監察委員稱對於涉及事務不能調查你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5785.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5804.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個不是監察院的發言這是個別監察委員的意見至於說我剛剛已經有說明過了就是本案已經依照相關的規定移到我們的紀律委員會去處理那紀律委員會處理的全部都是涉及事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5805.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5832.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
因為他就是處理監察委員的相關的問題所以你也不認同所謂涉及事務不能調查這句話這是監委個人的意見嗎我就是這樣說那複密我再跟您講那個提過一個過去的例子啦其實過去監察院對於自家的秘書長陳鋒義他就曾經彈劾過所以監察院絕對不存在所謂對於涉及事務不能調查的這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5832.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5858.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
過往就有這個例子那我不知道葉大華委員他這個所謂的涉及事務不得調查他的依據是什麼這個我到現在還是不懂那所以呢您剛也說了涉及事務不是不能調查紀律委員會也可以查那再來我就跟您說過往的例子秘書長也曾經被彈劾過所以不存在這個這位監察委員的這個說法完全不及格搞不清楚自己什麼話能說什麼不能說更何況紀律委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5860.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5882.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們紀律委員會的那個自律規範的17跟19條也都寫得很清楚這部分本來就可以查監察院不是話外之地啦好所以這部分謝謝你也把話說清楚啦好那我再請教一個問題喔那如果司法調查中這次副院長又說司法調查中所以監察院那邊不能查請問您認同這個說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5885.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5914.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
本案的狀況是這樣子是因為北檢已經立案在處理在偵查中那也有向監察院在進行調查進行偵查這是確定的我要第一個這樣子說明那第二呢就是副院長那天所說的說因為有監察法適應細則第27條所謂第二項但書的這樣的狀況那副院長的意思是說因為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5915.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5936.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
已經相關的委員已經移到紀律委員會去那紀律委員會有幾個處理的方式當然他要開會第二個他也可以推派委員調查然後他有一定的調查的一個結果會提報出來所以這是某一個程度他也是要適用監察院的調查案件注意事項相關的規定所以11條的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5939.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5966.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以呢副院長會這樣子說明就是說我們已經在進行調查好那我唸給你聽好了啦他6月3號的那次那個記者會他是說只要司法啟動調查監察院這邊就不能調查所以本來機制已經啟動但是北檢已經正式啟動調查我們也只能暫時停住等司法有一個確認的結果監察院才能進行調查這是他說的跟跟您說的剛剛有一點不太一樣好那我再提一個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5967.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5990.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你剛說那個東西我覺得沒關係我尊重你的說法但是呢我對於監察法的了解我覺得這個論述我是不太能夠接受我來提一個從法律面及事實面我先跟各位報告一下監察法26條他從來沒有提到一個是官員檢調進去調查的時候然後你就不能查他並沒有明文第二個您剛說的施行細則27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5991.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6003.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
他不僅沒有寫到停止調查這句話他反而寫明了調查案件被調查人之同一行為在刑事偵查或審判中不停止調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6004.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6021.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以這個部分我覺得還是要回歸到法律的規定是這樣子所以到底用我們把公務車拿去送小狗去美容這個行為到底有沒有問題我想過往的例子這已經不是一個模擬兩可的行為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6022.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6039.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我相信有很多行為 現在還是模擬量但是送小狗去美容 這個我想大家不會有爭議因為過去呢 2020年在雲林的消防局長戴天心他也是使用公務車 後來被貴院給彈劾那去年3月呢 屏東山地門的鄉長 他也因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6040.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6054.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那個公務車拿來做個人坐車使用然後被判刑我想從這兩個案例我們可以知道如果有濫用公務車的行為可能會有涉嫌刑罰的問題我想這個沒有問題那再來我再跟委員我可以說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6059.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6084.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
在監察院有一個監察院收受人民書狀及處理辦法他的第12條的第二款他有各款就是說監察院就是不予調查的因不予調查的處理那各款第一款是比較明確就是行政救濟程序第二款呢就是軍司法的偵審程序中所以只要進入軍司法的偵審程序中原則上監察院是因為不予調查的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6086.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6114.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那可是本案呢因為涉及到監察委員所以我們還是積極的處理所以有移到紀律委員會去好沒關係喔這是你剛剛說的部分喔那我也跟你講監察法28條其實有提到一個調查人員必要時得知會當地政府法院或其他機關協助那如果不是在審理中他怎麼請求法院協助好那但您剛剛說這法治部分我也跟你談論法治的部分來再來我跟你講事實的部分好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6114.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6133.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
因為過往我在新北市政府擔任法治局局長我記得啊 幾年前啊 爆發一個恩恩案啦那個案子 當時地檢署也立刻介入調查把資料從市政府全部拿走因為所有的案子送去檢方之前都會匯過法治局所以我很清楚那個案子的狀況結果貴院 卯起來打 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6135.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6156.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
還說為什麼檢察官在查我就不能查 沒有那種事情我們當時還把監察院 櫃院的網站上面有列出來說刑事偵查中 那個櫃院通常就不會再進行調查了嘛這是櫃院的網站裡面 我印象中有這個東西 我們還印出來跟監察院談 但監察院完全不理會就毛起來打所以啊 櫃院啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6157.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6171.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
在面對不同的人的時候的做法是完全不一樣不然你可以去看過去恩恩案那個案子檢察官在查的時候監察委員是怎麼修理新北市政府的因為我當時承辦嘛所以我非常清楚整個案子的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6172.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6201.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
發生了什麼事情就今天呢變成貴院的秘書長發生問題的時候哇又變成是司法調查中所以貴院不能查那這不就是嚴重的雙標嗎有時候我是覺得這樣啦我不會認為可以查或不可以查哪一個比較好我不做這樣的論斷但是麻煩貴院能夠做統一的做法而不是在面對不同人的時候用不同的做法如果你們說檢察官在調查中我們去 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6201.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6230.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
做其他的調查 這個可以並行 那就一律可以並行或一律不可以並行我一定持平的在看待每一件事但是我不能接受的是 為什麼面對一些事情的時候檢方在調查中 絕對不會影響我們監察 貴院的調查但是呢 在面對某些不同人的時候檢方調查中 那就是我不用查的意思我比較不能接受這樣啦那更何況喔 過去我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6231.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6250.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
檢察院 我想檢察院過去有一些還蠻奇特的一些做法尤其是在段宜康曲棍囚案那個案子其實當時我還在當檢察官那一件事情讓檢察官內部極度的不爽因為檢察官偵查案件就竟然被檢察院被 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6253.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6270.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
斷錢立委 要求監察院要下去查監察院莫名其妙地要求彈劾彈劾之後到職務法庭 職務法庭認為根本就不構成就沒有任何違法偵查的問題啊駁回了之後 然後監察院還要繼續再審然後駁回之後 還要再上訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6271.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6285.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
監察院監察權完全侵害司法權然後這也不當一回事然後讓檢方那邊很不爽那個有一個團體建金減改協會多次發文來罵這件事情那貴院也不當一回事啊請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6287.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6312.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
委員 我說明一下 就是剛剛委員提到幾個案件戴天心然後幾個我們有彈劾案件但是我首先說明一下他的為事事證不單單只有公務車使用的這樣子的狀況這是第一點那第二點呢 就是恩恩案有委員在處理那原則上監察院是依據法律獨立行使職權通常就是監察委員怎麼樣行使他的調查權我懂 我懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6313.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6331.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這句話我在這邊已經聽過好幾次了我尊重監察委員個別行使職權李居英秘書長這句話跟我講過好幾次所以呢過去的監察委員他獨立行使職權去查恩恩案那今天的監察委員獨立不行使職權不查我知道秘書長無權干涉我了解你應該要講的就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6331.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6349.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
最後一點是有關於陳榮祥的案件監察院處理陳榮祥的談判案完全是按照職務法庭的一個判斷然後為什麼會再審上訴等等的其實我們有發過新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6350.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6374.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我看過啊我看過啊職務法庭呢並不認為陳榮祥案件完全沒有違私只是沒有到達情節重大應該要用懲戒那以上說好那所以照你這樣講其實那個整個我都看過而且這個我在去年諮詢過好幾次那如果你的邏輯對那全國檢察官都笨蛋那監刑檢改是笨蛋他竟然對這個東西去去去 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6376.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6383.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
敢講任何一句話 那你的意思是這樣 那些司法人員都白癡啊如果知道你這個邏輯是正確的話那我跟你講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6384.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6411.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我看過了植物法庭的 他的駁回那監察院還好意思再審 再審 再上訴然後整個侵害到偵查權的調查細節這個是過往監察院不會做的事情我在這邊跟你們報告 過往監察院不會這麼做那為什麼監察委員一任比一任這樣那我也不知道那沒關係 你要反駁那些漸新減改他們的論述那你反駁 我都予以尊重那我在講齁 其實監察院不是這個啦對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6412.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6436.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好啦 現在不只這個啦 我跟你講啦去年啦 那高永成不是還跳出來叫侯友宜出來講一個35年前的一個案子那我們當時也覺得莫名其妙 當時我已經在這邊了啦那我也覺得莫名其妙 你找一個 你要調查一個35年前的案子我也OK 我也覺得可以但是呢 侯友宜當時是在地轄區警察局的一個基層的警官 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6437.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6460.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
就你要叫他來問就那個案子主要承辦刑事局的人他又不問所以這有時候我就覺得監察委你至少做漂亮一點你要當政治打手你至少做完整一點嘛你全案那些人現在很多都還在啊那些人你都不查主要承辦人不查你找一個轄區配合到場的的那個基層警官來查所以我就覺得監察委你不能always是雙標啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6461.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6476.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
好吧 那個時間的關係我想那個矯正署這邊不好意思那我就可能下一次我在請教在您退休之前我再請教您一些矯正署方面的問題好 謝謝各位好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6491.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6511.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那個署長七月要農退啊下一位我們請審發會委員主席你的手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6519.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6538.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
主席各位同仁,剛才看到我們即將要退休的署長,在後面站了那麼久我們質詢又超時,超時一倍,叫你站在那邊站那麼久都沒問我覺得對你很不好意思,所以現在就請你上來補,說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6538.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6563.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我剛有跟這個署長說不好意思部長你也一起啦因為有一些如果有牽涉到署長我們也就主要應該還是來請教署長不過有一些政策的問題這個會請部長來做補充我們其他的沒有關係這個有必要再上來我不像吳宗憲不會罰你們那麼久罰站你們那麼久來這個因為署長即將退休啦所以有一些問題這邊問好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6569.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6592.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
會過去的問題很多,我看你們的報告,過去的問題很多也是累積很久也不是你的問題,那未來的問題好像也不關你的事所以我在這邊這樣子,我有一點不知從何問起啦齁啊但是就是借重署長過去這麼多年服務的經驗啦齁所以有一些部分我想要跟你了解說現在我們到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6593.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6620.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
矯正署的跟我們法務部就這些相關問題到底有什麼樣的對策這個是我整理剛才我看陳培育委員剛才也有整理我們大家都我今天主席會排這個專案報告也是近年來這個我這一年的時間一年的時間看到我們的監獄相關的這些管理失當跟這些暴力事件的一些新聞那這些是個案我們只是呈現說過去這一年確實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6623.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6639.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這些狀況非常多所以我很仔細就一直很期待的看我們法務部跟我們矯正署有關於這些近來這個矯正機關暴力衝突事件頻傳這樣子到底有什麼樣的對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6643.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6656.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
法務部的部分其實我看非常簡單總共兩頁再多三行這兩頁裡面第一其實講的就是說人力不足所以要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6658.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6672.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
補充人力啦,專業訓練,然後再來要科技輔助健全廚藝作為,就這樣子三句話講完了我也看這個矯正署的報告,裡面也其實也同樣這幾個問題只是講得稍微仔細一點我想問題是這樣子啦,署長這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6682.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6689.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
就所有報告胎中名醫都講說實在是人力不足我們現在人力到底缺多少看你能不能講一下709 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6694.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6699.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
實際缺額的情形709人那你們這個矯正數和報告裡面也特別列出了一個表格世界各國介乎人力比的一個標準我們台灣是一個人要管9.8個人1比9.8這個9.8是如果人力補足的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6719.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6746.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
一個管9.8現在這個709人還沒補上的話是1比11.4一個人要管11個人多那在日本是1比2.3幾乎一個人是管兩個人左右這是日本新加坡是1比3美國也只有1比4.5那我們這個確實這個看起來我們這個這個介護人力確實是非常的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6747.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6759.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那這個這樣子的缺額不足是什麼時候開始是今年這709人的缺額是今年突然缺709人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6762.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6785.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
不是 我們預算額是6076人但是剛剛我們部長有提到我們切額709人也就是說我們現在在職的管理人員是5367人以這個比例 我們現在大概是我要問的是說這個人力不足的現象是今年發生的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6786.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6809.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
不是不是 絕對不是是歷年來嗎對 累積的累積的啦 累積的那也就是說長期以來都人力不足那今天我們排這個專案報告說這個狀況嚴重所以你們提出來第一個理由還是人力不足所以我就要問那人力不足怎麼辦你們現在有什麼樣的對策主理跟行政院請爭那因為我們會有辭職商調我們請爭介護人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6814.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6843.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們107年 過去 去年沒有做嗎去年沒有做嗎 比如說我們107年就有請增228名然後呢 結果 114年請增123名那111年配合我們巴德外一間跟雲林二間 請增390名所以人力不足不是 署長 按照你們的報告人力不足有很多原因 這些原因你們也都列出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6845.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6871.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以呢怎麼辦繼續讓這個區域繼續擴大嗎當然我們是會努力那在傾徵我們剛剛報告 剛剛委員報告我們有合計傾徵的這幾年下來913名那人種也是有給我們啦只是我們現在還有709名的這個缺額因為我們會有辭職商調的但是其實按照你的報告這709名就算補上了還是1比9點還是1比9.8不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6874.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6887.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
對不對 把缺額補上了1比9.8嘛現在沒有補上是1比11.4嘛對不對是是是所以即使709的缺額全部補上還是人力不足對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6889.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6911.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我們有配合科技安全網還有智慧監獄我先跟你講人力不足嘛你們就講幾個原因嘛你們就說要怎麼營運 問你們怎麼營運你們說第一個就是人力不足所以加強專業訓練第二個就是用科技來輔助嘛 對不對所以人力的部分沒關係啦 署長你快要退休了我知道這是未來的問題啦 部長你回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6912.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6935.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那到底人力不足怎麼辦就剛才蘇長有講就傾偵人力的問題那但是因為整個預算還有編制元額最主要是還有那個整個中央總元額法裡面的一個限制所以我們在傾偵這部分還經過一般的一個努力但是因為這個部分如果你們不去正視它它就永遠一直惡化下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6935.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6962.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
因為他本身你的招考人數也都不夠然後進來的人也不夠就算全部補滿了還是不夠所以你不去徹底解決他在這些請證啦什麼的他永遠就是缺額就是這樣永遠你會面對同樣的問題啦這個部分我是希望能夠有具體措施啦其實老實講一年後再排同樣的專題出來你們來講是人力不足啦那問題怎麼辦你還是說請證啦就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6965.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6987.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我是希望能夠解決一些問題現在這樣的暴力事件的升級其實監察院我這樣看監察院幾乎每年都有針對我們目前的這些監所的這些管理失靈的問題幾乎每年都有調查都有報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6989.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7011.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那每年這個報告,我就拿去年跟前年這兩年,112年、113年這兩年一個是針對北監的,一個是針對台南監獄這兩個報告拿來比對,幾乎問題都差不多他們的共同缺失也就是說監察院不管他調查幾次,他所列出來的缺失幾次都沒有改善其實你們都沒有進行改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7014.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7022.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
請問委員提到北間跟南間是指哪個案子監察院112年9月13號監察院112私調0017號報告這個是針對北間的這個112年12月11號這個是針對台南監獄的這都是監察院的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7037.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7054.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
裡面提的其實他的用語不可謂不中法律人說不可謂不中意思就是說其實口氣很重他講說你們這個以112年來講北間一再縱容一再縱容適而不見這些都是他北間的這些用語 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7066.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7093.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
他裡面有提到對受刑人經常無故上銬不當私用電擊棒教唆其他受刑人對受刑人服務員對實施折手擊頭推人撞牆毆打等方式這都是監察院的報告這都不是我講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7095.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7106.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這樣子的這種系統性的所謂他所提到的服務員是誰服務員是所謂服務員是什麼視同作業的視同作業的什麼的什麼雜役 所謂的雜役雜役 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7112.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7128.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這些狀況齁 其實我們說包括這些私用借據什麼我們都有辦法都有規定啦齁但是你們私用借據你們都有要登記時間要登記什麼結果監察院去報告說你們的這些報告多處用立可白圖改多處用立可白圖改也就是你們登記說我幾點開始實驗到後來監察院報告要調查的時候要去用立可白圖改 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7140.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7164.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這都監察院的報告啦 這些我也沒有看到你們有任何改善措施啊剛剛你提到科技這兩份這個共同缺失裡面 他就多處提到你們裡面的這個監視器包括你們監視畫面的保全 制度也不完善包括你們這個監視器的死角他們直接指出的監視器死角 有改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7169.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7196.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我們各監獄會有一個戒護的藍圖所以案前的那個我們時間我時間已經到了我很不想再超時了這個這些女人所發生的包括已經司法在偵辦的有這個管理員對受刑人的有受刑人對受刑人的有受刑人對管理員的這些相關的暴力事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7198.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7214.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我看你們的這個其實我看包括法務部包括小政署你們的這些書面報告簡單講一個結論就是兩手一攤說沒有辦法就這樣子因為人力不足我們只有靠科技我認為是這樣的態度不好這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7217.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7239.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我只最後提到這個報告司改會在2017年就已經提出來這個有關這個監所的這個外部監所訪查委員會這部分我知道我們已經成立了我們在2022年成立但是其實現在這些調查你們這個外部外部的這個訪查委員會其實現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7240.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7269.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
你們說一年四季開四次的會那一年交一次視察報告結果這些視察報告其實都是你們今天所寫的對不對撰寫人 撰寫人我們的要求要由外部視察委員來寫我們要求機關不可以代替視察委員來寫這個報告每一年的報告上面寫撰寫人都不是外部委員都是你們機關的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7269.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7284.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
跟法務部有成立一個委員的遴選小組我們有做一些這個我們內部的控管機制監察院怎麼調查報告怎麼寫每年寫其實我們都沒有去改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7285.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7306.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們這個外部的這個訪查委員會我們也沒有去強化他的機能結果就造成這樣的結果報告一件事就是說我們提到的借記我們在113年的8月有所謂的監獄看守所私用借記的指引跟私以物電保護的指引所以我們都有要求各機關要確實執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7312.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7329.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
要確實執行的結果就是你們可以去用立可白圖你們使用的時間上面不用有任何修改公文修改你修改你都要去蓋執章你要去簽名說我這修改改字但是你們那個時間用立可白圖了都不用簽名了光這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7331.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7348.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
你如果改這一點我就阿彌陀佛了不過署長沒有關係恭喜你要退休脫離苦海啦但是這個部長你還沒有要退休我希望你能夠這個相關的這些監所的管理預證我們想辦法從根解決不要每年都討論同樣的問題好不好好謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7365.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7371.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
謝謝主席 有請法務部我們鄭部長還有 麻煩鄭部長 繳證署啊我們 周署長 喔 周署長部長 署長 阿維好我又來當一次公道伯仔啦剛 來修正一下我們召委剛的講法啦剛召委是在提到啊 這個整個 呃 刑務訴訟法啊第98條 訊問被告因出於懇切的態度 他認為這個不是證據能力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7393.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7399.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這個可能要修正一下我們在念書的時候 念法律系的98條一定是跟150條接著看任何人詢問完以後 那個當然是一個訓示規定可是如果是出於強暴脅迫 或者說詐欺甚至於不正的方法 那到最後都不得當證據部長講的就對了 那是一個證據能力的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7416.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7420.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
一併提出來 大家說參考那我今天特別要請教幾個問題就是說雖然署長要退休但是我有一些問題也要來做一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7429.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7454.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
你像 早有今天排這個專題我就覺得非常有意義高雄監獄也爆發了不當的一個管教失敗調查當中那我們再看這個台東太原監獄收容人 戶歐的嘉義監獄管理員不當管教事件或北京蔣城這些都產生了很大的一個爭議但是呢 這個事後我看到我們矯正署都會發一些新聞稿懲處人員 矯正署 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7458.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7484.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
其實應該被外界期待的是說我們有沒有去系統性的去盤點這些問題的根源這一些問題的發生我都認為這個其實只是冰山一角黑樹都還沒有出來了都很正常法務部是一個很特殊的一個機關我們的機關裡面社會大眾要求法務部底下的我們的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7485.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7487.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
要打擊犯罪 宅監發福這個整個社會的秩序 治安都要去加強的去防範打擊犯罪可是呢 我們底下只要是起訴了 法院判決了然後定讞了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7502.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7514.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
又會回到我們法務部底下的矯正署這個是很衝突的一個命題 但沒辦法 沒辦法所以北京有些人 陶醉的人說這很恐怖的 這要怎麼做 要怎麼跟人家抓來要求要判 判黨刑 甚至要判私刑如果抓去跟人家抓 人權 人權要注意很衝突 但是呢 這個世界各國皆然我們是特別想要問的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7528.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7534.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
除了剛提到那些問題 我們應該去做一個檢討以外系統性的盤點以外最近台東 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7535.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7560.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
台東 你看你們東城監獄這個地方這個讓人比較痛心的啦其實六月份醫療暴力就有好幾件了嘛三總那個地方也有那這一次是發生在我們東城監獄裡面那資深護理師隨著醫療團隊到東城監獄執行這個看診的一個勤務那收容人你用鉛子筆給他插你的臉啊勒那個警部去施暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7561.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7582.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那多處受傷那當然到最後送醫院去救治啦這個不是第一次收容人去攻擊醫護人員我相信也不會是最後一次聽到啦那當然我們都支持在監所的人這些收容我們提供他人道的醫療的一個服務可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7583.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7596.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這個人道其實也不是只適用於收容人第一線的醫護人員基本的人身安全我相信部長你應該也特別有感也應該要受到制度上的一個保障那我特別要提出來就是說台東護理師公園他們也 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7598.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7616.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
提了幾點訴求 我希望部長也來做一個回應 聽我有沒有道理你知道他們說 是否你們應該跟衛福部共同來檢討現行的一個矯正醫護制度的一個缺口你制定入監醫療安全的一個指引 你這一個指引給他們針對醫護人員進出監所進入 明確去規範安全措施跟風險的預警的一個程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7622.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7639.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我認為這個合理這個應該要這樣做應該要做那第一點你回應的還有第二個就是說現在醫院裡面一旦發生這種攻擊事件醫院裡面院方當然他啟動啊他有針對心理輔導法律協助的一個機制這個人家醫院有啊那我們監鎖人家去哪裡找啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7641.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7664.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們醫護人員受到這樣子的話我們法律上 心理上 但心理上不可能叫你檢索要怕死 檢索你是在輔導針對一些受刑人的那至少我們也可以跟衛福部來做一個討論那這一些醫療暴力通報跟應變處理機制來提供當事人的法律協助跟心理重建的一個資源不要給這些醫護 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7666.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7692.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
獨自去承擔這樣的一個制度上的一個風險啊這個我覺得不知道柏定跟蘇定你們是不是可以做一個回應像那個一般的那個醫療處所我們現在檢察機關有建立一個連續的一個窗口那我們有對這些供給醫護人員有專注辦案那也有窮重的來求刑那當然我也有提到了這個的確在監所裡面的這個醫護到裡面的是不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7694.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7711.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
缺口那這部分我也承諾就是說以後我們會跟衛福部來做一個聯繫來討論如何補足這個缺口我們做一個諮詢那有一個議許那剛才我也有提到就是那個這個醫護人員這部分那供給這部分我們也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7712.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7731.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
會強化我們看診區的一個介乎的觀念我們本身先檢討啦先來設置啦那另外這些供給的這些收容人這個供給的這些這個收容人那我們也依規定來辦理違規的嚴懲那這部分台東地檢署也不耐來追究那個行者你幹嘛六月份看到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7732.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7741.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
三軍總院發生的醫療暴力的時候醫師團體護理團體就出來要求立法院要修法要去加重醫療法裡面去加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7742.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7763.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
何況一般醫院都有這樣的一個要求到監獄裡面去的這個法務部我們更不應該視而不見那另外就是說以目前醫療機構被要求外派醫護進監的服務的時候你們契約內容幾乎沒有去保障跟執勤條件跟風險的一個配套所以這樣有道理我覺得你這個制度的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7767.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7782.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
重新再去做一個檢討你說檢討說對於矯正機關醫療服務的你們那個契約裡面的內容的部分可能一併的去請我們矯正署這個地方來去做一個盤點也呼應這個醫師公會這樣的一個訴求態度要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7786.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7809.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
是 報告委員我們監索對於那個入監的醫護人員的安全保障我們會依照全民健康保險提供矯正機關醫療服務作業息之裡面的相關第九條的規定來協助現場安全的介護那報告委員有提到那個我們可是你們現在契約沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7810.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7831.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我們會依照這個作業息之這個這個部分來來再盤點一下這個是衛福部訂的作業息之我們會來做相關的配合辦理那委員有提到我們隔天典議長也有到台東基督教育院慰問那位護理師而且給他實質的關懷慰問金那也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7832.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7848.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
台東基督教的院長做溝通所以我所知道的台東衛生局也有召開比如地檢署相關的醫院的一個會議來做相關因應的加強安全措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7849.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7872.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
這個是我們腳證署應該要去做的啦因為你說醫療法的一個修法那個到底立法院這個地方有沒有辦法或者說這個法務委員會提出草案這目前我們不知道嘛但至少我們現在能做的我們就盡量去做我最後一個問題要請教啦就是也是跟我們跟你說一句你有關係嗎最近四合法治委員會我們真的很用心 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7873.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7895.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們一直在排考察都是在監獄我們對於這個整個考核的一個制度我相信署長其實雖然很快就要退休了對於整個雷勁廚藝這個部分你說廢掉到監獄行刑的部分去做一個規範這個是一個進步但是以現在我相信你也很清楚在監獄裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7897.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7917.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
受刑人他也有乾扣的一個地方所以我剛開宗明義就講說法務部是一個很特殊的機關又要去打擊犯罪打擊犯罪完以後又要去照顧到這些受刑人但是制度就是這樣的一個設計可是呢你去看你目前在考核的話你說有日常的一個獎懲 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7918.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7926.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你每個月還要去評分他 有操信啊 教化啊 作業啊然後又變成有責任分數 犯的幾次啊 撤銷假釋的又不一樣適用的年份又不一樣 到最後到一個禁級我的意思就是說 我們現在很多輔導人員 署長你最清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7938.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7947.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那搞不好大家都變喔 都在算數 每天都在那裡算都在那裡算分數而已啊所以對這個整個制度的一個變革你本來喔 每一個監獄的考核裡面喔大家都定辦法又不太一樣後來是你矯正署是統一啦整個高等行政法案去做一個判決以後要求你們累進廚藝的評分機制應該法務部 矯正署去訂定一個制度好了 你們現在訂出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7967.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7986.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
可是我現在比較擔心的就是說,這個高度不確定性,監所裡面如何再繼續去強化那個透明度跟那個社會的一個公信度,讓公信力要求每一年我們這個外部的一個視察,外部的監督的部分,是不是應該繼續再加強? |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7989.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8006.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我們所謂的階段儲育新制會來代替這個傳統的所謂累進儲育制度那主要是要簡化它的考核制度機制還有縮短刑期還有報假釋的相關的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8008.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8029.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
以往我們是點數字現在我們類似日本所謂的變成考察字但是我們會唯一不同日本的考察字它是由管理員來負責考察所以他們的學者就提出說管理員的所謂的學養他的能力有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8030.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8052.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
做到非常的公平公正的考核所以我們將來的所謂的考核不會說只給管理員來考核我們有一個類似教育小組有一個團體team來做嚴格嚴正的考核因為這個涉及到收容人的所謂的共同權益我們絕對要很慎重要公平公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8052.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8061.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我跟妳建議啦 因為時間也很少啦這個問題其實在司法局委員會 有幾位委員也都很深入啦我跟妳建議就是說 妳這一生的這樣功力妳這樣好好地寫一下 寫一下這樣 給補充這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8069.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8085.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
還要跟他開發保險 讓他送他讓我們整個矯正的整個這樣的一個業務可以讓他更制度化把那一些制度裡面原來目前的一個缺失的這一甲子的功力你也下一個去撈這樣整個在接下來的預證管理讓他可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8090.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8118.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
更符合社會的一個期待不知道蘇丁你的看法如何報告委員我們的假釋科都非常的清楚而且我們是委託兩所大學去針對累進處理制度做相關的研討所以我想我們數不管是將來的配套將來的研修應該會很嚴謹而且很公平事正的去處理這一點請委員可以放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8118.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8138.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
當然會放心 可是問題就是說我們這個制度的一個改進真的是太慢為什麼呢 你像我們到北京去考察的時候另外一個受刑人裡面 有時候是訴罪併罰 他犯了很多罪嘛剛第一個罪的時候 他確定判決是只有六個月而已啊六個月進去了以後呢 他十三次更刑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8139.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8146.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
然後檢察官在那個指揮書裡面一共你們假證書一個監獄接到幾張?30張!只剩下這個分數,你就剩到5張了你說對那個受刑人的情緒的一個波動或者你們管理上都會產生很大的一個問題啦這些問題誰看得最清楚?你做處理的人看得很清楚啦不要硬著啦,像那個港府稍微加一點好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8166.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8184.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝 謝謝委員我們現在先做一個會議程的宣告 稍後再吳思堯委員 尋答完畢之後休息五分鐘中委員剛誤會我的那個意思啦 就是喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8186.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8200.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那中委員中委員剛誤會我的意思啦因為我們剛其實是在談的是說訊問要出於懇切的態度那因為部長回答說是證據能力我說我們現在不是在討論證據能力那個也跟政治98條跟政治能力是有關的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8203.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8224.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
對 因為98條嚴重的話就會有156條證據能力問題但是在還沒有嚴重 譬如說他沒有出於懇切態度這是法務部長要管 其實我們在談論的是還沒有到有證據能力問題 而且證據能力也不是部長能夠談的所以我是要我給你修正 這是公道備啊 部長是沒有講錯的不是我挺他 我是講你們兩個見解的時候產生誤解啦我了解 我剛剛不是說部長講錯 我一直說我不是在跟部長討論證據能力的問題因為98你要到嚴重才有156的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8232.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8235.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
有請監察院副秘書長 王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8267.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8287.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
副秘書長好我想當末代監察院院長這是誰的名言剛剛黃國昌委員有講到對啊是誰我們陳院長對啊非常是陳菊院長的名言那廢除監察院是我從政以來的理念這句話是誰說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8289.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8296.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我告訴你好了就是已經離開的監察院秘書長李俊逸李俊逸秘書長曾經說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8298.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8321.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我就要想請教一樣是延續黃國昌的問題既然末代監察院是我們陳菊院長的心願那他當了陳菊院長之後當了監察院院長之後他到底做了哪一些開始準備讓監察院成為末代然後讓監察院走入歷史讓監察院被廢除的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8325.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8353.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
報告委員剛剛我也有跟黃委員這樣的說明就是陳院長跟第六屆監察委員就任以後所有的監察委員都是非常落實的在行使監察職權就是青年正職超然中立的行使職權嘛對不對他們在行使監察職權那監察職權是什麼青年正職沒錯吧青年正職行使職權沒錯吧監察職權是包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8355.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8378.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
彈劾糾舉 糾正 調查總要清廉正直 不用清廉正直行使彈劾糾舉的權利嗎這個是在我們監察委員自律規範裡面有規定連清廉正直你都這麼心虛 不會吧我有說明這是自律規範裡面也有這樣子清廉正直 沒錯吧不用我問那麼多遍超然中立吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8382.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8405.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
剛剛你的整個回答其實就證明了一件事情我們的陳菊院長當了監察院的院長領著監察院院長的薪水他開過一次要廢除監察院的會議沒有有沒有開過一次沒有有沒有發表任何政策或是進程來告訴大家怎麼來規劃廢除監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8408.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8434.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
沒有啦,我直接告訴你,我也查過啦,沒有啦,沒錯吧就我所知是對阿,沒有所以這句話,對他而言,要領薪水比較重要但是我跟你講,其實我在這邊講這些,我其實要幫陳菊講話陳菊還是有在努力的要廢除監察院他也真的很努力要當末代的監察院院長,你知道為什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8437.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8460.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我只要講一個 什麼樣的監察院該廢除什麼樣的監察院該廢除如果要廢除監察院 它是有它的修正修憲的程序修憲是程序啦不清廉 不正直 不超然 不中立的監察院就違背了監察院的行使職權最重要的一個價值準則吧對不對 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8463.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8483.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
必須要不要清廉正直的行使監察職權如果做不到這件事情違反了監察院的核心價值所以我跟你是有共識的但我告訴你為什麼今天陳菊院長她很認真啊她一邊領著薪水一邊心心念念想要廢除監察院為什麼我舉個幾個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8485.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8509.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我自己只辦藍不辦綠 而且我專辦辦綠不辦藍的法官我還要約詢陳審馬英九前總統案件地方法院的法官請問這是誰的功勳跟事蹟哪一個監察委員的功勳跟事蹟他說過這句話做過這件事這不是本屆的監察委員不是本屆 是民進黨屆的 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8511.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8525.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
不是本屆不是第六屆當然不是第六屆我知道我講的是一個延續性的問題嘛誒不會吧現在是民進黨執政誒所以只算本屆前屆都不算啦是誰啊你也知道不是本屆但你知道是誰啦是誰你知道吧好啦不為難你了陳思夢啊請問這句話有何於超然跟中立嗎非常超然嗎這句話有沒有超然 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8541.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8568.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
有沒有中立直接問啦就一個監察委員講這句話妥不妥當啦副局長我告訴你其實你不用為這些人背書啊就像你講的他也不是本屆監察委員嘛是不是不是本屆的監察委員對啊不是本屆監察委員啊根本沒有什麼超然中立直接赤裸的告訴你我就是我就是要辦藍不辦綠有這樣的一個監察委員出在民進黨執政的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8569.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8577.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那再來想問 已經不超人不中立了再來問第二個 第二個你就不能推別界了 就本界了請問載著公務車把愛犬當 公務車當愛犬的美容專車載著公務車去幫愛犬美容算清廉正職嗎這個目前北檢已經在調查中北檢調查 剛剛都已經講過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8598.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8626.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
按照監察法 基本上調查也不會構成你們今天停止調查的一個理由啦但沒關係 我不跟你爭論這件事你只要回答我一件事情 這樣做對嗎我告訴你啊 我質詢過我們的部長啦部長都直接承認啦 上次質詢你啊部長絕對不會把你的公務室拿去愛犬做美容吧 對不對對啊 你沒有愛犬 你也不會做這件事情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8628.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8655.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我告訴你也沒有誰清廉公正這件事那我再講下一個我告訴你多了剛剛也有在質詢到那我剛剛副秘長很努力的辯解高永成為什麼去這個要兩度彈劾懲辦曲棍球案的檢察官過程是什麼因為接到段怡康的施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8657.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8681.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
然後呢 跑去威脅懲辦檢察官啊然後兩度彈劾又不成功啊你不需要幫他辯護 我告訴你這件事情就沒有所謂的超談中立 也沒有所謂的青年政治一個檢察官因為政治人物的壓力跑去恐嚇檢察官一個監察委員政治人物的壓力跑去恐嚇檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8683.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8712.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
沒有檢察官看得下去啦剛剛我們主席對這件事也提出了看法這樣就結束了嗎 沒有啊我們賴清德大弟子前行政院發言人陳忠彥涉入性招待 關說的這些重大為師 輿論沸騰啊監察委員以壓倒性的多數反對彈劾陳忠彥監察院過去被人家說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8713.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8736.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
只打蒼蠅不打老虎啊 我跟各位講啊 民進黨執政之後 更慘他連蒼蠅死都不敢打打老虎 打了哪一隻老虎給我看看啊 已經執政 民進黨執政九年了打了哪一隻老虎給我看看啊 連蒼蠅死都不敢打那這種情況之下 我才跟肯定我們陳菊說到做到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8737.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8763.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
陳菊為什麼想到末代監察院院長末代監察院院長一邊領著高薪最好的做法就是把監察院整個毀掉嘛毀你的青年正職 毀你的超然中立嘛帶著李俊逸啊兩個人啊 這兩個人都是主張廢除監察院啊身體力行啊但是最後一里路我直接跟副秘書長講最後一里路啊 羅志強幫他完成了 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8765.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8792.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
現在 黃國昌跟我 他包括我們中線召委我們都已經提案 嚴肅要來實現陳菊的心願要來實現李俊逸的心願提案廢除監察院 把監察權移到立法院不只是實現他們的心願抱歉 也實現民進黨的心願民進黨已經有修憲案在立法院裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8795.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8817.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
也是廢除監察院把監察權移到立法院我在這邊還是告訴副秘書長告訴大家今天為什麼監察院變得如此不堪變成是大家眾所唾棄跟你們這些職員沒有關係老講白了他機能有問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8820.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8842.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
本來監察院在我們中華民國憲法本文所謂的五權設計當中它是間接民選的機關它的老闆是人民修憲之後變成是總統提名老闆變成總統 立法院同意總統不提名也沒有立法院同意提就一定聽我話的人變成這個樣我們賴總統提的人 請問他怎麼去監察 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8847.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8869.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
賴總統的行政代表他的行政權代表他意志的行政權我也不是講民進黨如此抱歉這是所謂的一個機制造成的結果任何政黨執政的總統他在提名的時候都有可能發聲說他提名的這個人感恩戴德謝謝總統提拔然後就不敢去監察 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8870.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8898.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以正本清源我們今天提出的主張我個人提出的主張廢院不廢權其實也不是廢院正確是要把它調整它的功能機制讓監察院民選機關化讓監察委員民選化那就有兩個方式第一個路徑就是民進黨的主張監察院廢掉監察權離到立法院因為立法委員是民選的換言之他的老闆生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8899.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8925.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以他比較不用那麼看總統的眼色做事就可以好好行使監獄那各位所有監察院的職工們你們就不用這麼委屈承受這麼多的非難有時候也是非戰之罪不是你們的問題那第二個路徑就是直接讓監察委員民選那就連怨都不用費了所以在這邊我也是幫你們講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8926.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8943.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
過去這麼多的責難為什麼沒有打老虎為什麼連蒼蠅死都不敢打不是你們這些監察院的一些職員的問題而是這個機制出了很大的問題現在是一個關鍵憲政時刻我希望我們可以好好來推動這個從政監察權的一個改革請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8946.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8959.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
委員我這裡先說明一下那個因為也有其他委員提到陳忠彥的案件那陳忠彥的案件的確是監察院彈劾是沒有通過的那沒有通過的原因其實也有做過說明原則上是當時的證據力不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8962.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8962.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
在監察院的部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8983.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9009.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
台南地檢署起訴以後監察院在我們的委員會已經成立復查案件已經復查所以目前這是在調查中的案件那這個我說明一下陳宗彥案件的一個狀況前半段我聽了很難過但後半段你說還在調查中對 目前是在調查中稍微讓我沒有那麼難過王洋補勞石油未完但我還是要跟你講一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9010.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9035.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
今天如果是其他官員遇到陳忠祐這種情況 我告訴你刑事責任跟行政維持是不同層次的問題吧對啊結果你高高舉舉輕輕放下涉及關說不當引言甚至所謂的可能疑似性招待所有問題你跟我講證據力不足他光跟廠商這種不當密切往來這事有沒有行政維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9036.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9064.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那這個是經過審查會有委員你們的審查會就我剛剛跟你講的嘛獨立行使職權就沒有辦法獨立行使職權嘛所以你剛剛講的 剛剛印證我講的東西你們那麼努力調查有什麼用你上面遇到今天總統提名的要買總統單的監察委員動不了啊可是今天如果監察院今天不用再上揚總統的臉色 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9066.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9084.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你們的職工就可以好好做事情所以謝謝你的補充 我直接講一個結論你的補充更驗證了 監察會好好做事情把它明顯化 謝謝 以上謝謝 謝謝韋好 謝謝 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言那吳思堯發言完畢之後休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9092.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9102.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
謝謝主席 有請鄭部長跟我們署長 周部長麻煩部長 署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9104.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9123.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
大家辛苦了今天一早上我看到我關心到很多委員針對我們預政改革介乎人力的部分都有很多的琢磨也提出很多正向的政策解方但我認為除了要從人力的增補下手其實空間的擴建更 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9124.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9138.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
不可缺畢竟空間會導引人的行為如果我們的超收的狀況沒有去解決的話在一個高度的壓力跟高風險的人員聚在一起的時候其實就可能發生各種 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9139.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9164.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
不好的狀況所以除了檢討人力空間空間空間好我要提醒你們空間跟人力是缺一不可的好下一頁那首先我真的是我對於今天你們的報告我並不滿意啊部長首先針對監獄的收容人跟職員衝突事件越來越多但我看到你們是選擇性的公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9165.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9188.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我看了法務部的報告我看到矯正署的報告你們提的報告是收容人對於教職人員所施以的暴行這五年來有301件甚至呢112年到113年一年之間增加了32件增加非常多平均五年來每年有60件 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9189.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9196.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
但是你們整理的標的是收容人對於教職人員施暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9197.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9221.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
但如果以最近我相信今天昭緯安排這個專報是因為媒體所揭露的不管是在高雄監獄是我們的戒護人員對於受刑人的性侵或者是2025年台東太原監獄是管理員來毆打受刑人的暴力事件乃至於嘉義監獄傳出來的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9223.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9238.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
也是教職人員對於收容人所以我要再一次確認一下你們提供的資料每年約60件的這種寓所的衝突事件你們都只整理收容人對於教職人員施暴是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9242.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9259.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
報告委員 委員提到的我們比如管理人員來做林內人患這個其實當然包括高雄監獄他是另外一種要收容人給他口交的部分那我們主動發掘然後你請地檢署偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9260.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9272.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以那個源頭也是收容人對於教學人員施以不當的行為 是這個意思嗎對 但是我們那個是個案的啦那高雄監獄的事件呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9273.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9302.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
高雄監獄 現在在一審當中一審當中那您先回答我這個問題 署長我認為我們不要選擇性的去記錄或者是公開我就問您這個問題你們所為的301件五年來的你們所進行的記錄都是收容人對於教職人員的嗎還是有包括包括教職人員是以收容人攻擊我們管理人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9303.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9329.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
每一個個案都有背後的原因但是施暴的事件在寓所裡面就是不容部長我也要提醒你們不管是誰對誰的施暴就像我過去在教育文化委員會我們在校園反霸凌一開始也是這樣校園反霸凌我們歷經的歷程是都先止收集生對生的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9330.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9356.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
而沒有去關照到老師對於學生的霸凌也是一個很大的而且不斷在增加的樣態所以我要說的是我們既然要去了解監獄的遇證改革的需求各種的暴力行為的可能我們要去解析它在記錄跟所有的分析就不能夠偏頗部長您同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9358.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9381.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這個同意我想任何的在監所裡發生的一些暴力那各種的太陽很多那我想委員關心的有各種的太陽那我們全部都會注意來做防治所以我要求你們下一次提出這樣子的檢討報告的時候需要對於不同的狀態做類別的分析我們才能夠對症下藥才能夠清楚的去解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9382.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9399.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
OK所以我先提醒一下這樣選擇性公開我並不接受那希望你們未來改進下一頁那我這邊提到的我看到你們對於這個個案有做了一些檢視我就不再贅述但是我要提到我今天的主題我看到你們的檢討報告裡頭有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9401.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9429.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
監索的扩建改建工程是重要的因为今天大家都在讲人力人力我就我还是会提到但是我要提醒扩建跟改建更是重要的空间会影响我们的收容品质所以说呢我第二个不满意是你们今天的报告你们always always其实之前的报告都会提到说我们的寓所的超收是不到1% |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9431.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9456.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
如果就數字來講確實就核定的這個容額到實質的收容人數確實或許是成立的啦不到1%但是部長您知道我在這個質詢台我每一次都告訴你台北地區桃竹苗地區的超收有多嚴重對不對中張頭也是很嚴重的高屏地區也是嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9456.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9471.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
你不能夠拿宜花東啦 離島啦或者是雲嘉南相對比較寬裕的收容人數最終來看到說我們的超收不到1%好像空間還OK這樣子的解讀我也不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9472.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9486.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以右邊的表格是我多次質詢我都提出來了在監獄的部分59%是超收的女子監獄更是100%看守所90%超收女子看守所高達100% |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9488.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9505.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
的超收所以這就是我關切的空間的問題我要支持你們大破大立的去爭取預算來進行擴建的工程所以超收不到1%這件事情我是覺得以後不要一直拿來說嘴好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9506.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9521.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員關心的就是監所的擴建的問題我們現在目前在進行八德外監跟大法看守所那另外剛才委員有提到就幾個比較緊迫包括桃園監獄 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9522.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9541.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
台北女子監獄 還有台北看守 台北女子看守這部分的一個簽擴建的問題 我們現在再規劃好 我知道 我稍後也有替你們彙總到下一頁那如果先就人力的部分 我這裡可能要加快確實是因為超收嚴重 戒護的業務繁重我覺得這些都是非戰之罪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9541.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9567.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
大家在一個很惡劣的環境裡頭在相對不愉悅的空間裡頭去工作尤其面對高風險的人員當然造成我們的離退率是非常高它是一個惡性循環所以署長您很辛苦即便您離開了您退休我相信您依舊是關心我們的寓所的整個改革以國際的報告你們今天的報告自己都很懇切的看到了台灣1比11 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9571.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9586.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
1比11都遠差於國際的標準好 下一頁我用一個總表來說今天你們的報告凸顯的是介護人員1比11那事實上在寓所裡頭還包括教化人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9587.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9607.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
新設人員跟執訓人員OK那我左邊的黑色字體是私改國事會議定定的目標私改國事定的目標他是目標他是理想他相對就是比較高規但是如果我們來對起來的話我們在介護人力你們要補709人補完也是一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9608.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9634.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
九八嘛 跟私改國事會議的一比八可能我們還要再努力理想就長遠的目標那教化人員的部分私改國事會議建議是一比一百那我們二零二五實施的現況是一比十三點八位左右還是有精進的空間乃至於呢新設人員反而是我們比較餘裕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9635.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9660.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
司改國是會的目標是一個新生人員服務300個收容人但我們現在其實做得更好我們是一位就可以輔導協助212位所以我們有我們可以做得更好的也已經達標的但是有我們要迎頭跟上所以我用這個總表我要提醒你們今天的focus在介護人員今天的專報但是在教化人員的人率短缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9661.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9680.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
還有新設人員他是有餘裕的能不能夠有什麼樣子的調派來協力其他的分工這個部分是不是署長你們有思考到報告委員我們現在教化教委是教化人力比是1比136那因為教化人員除了要辦理假釋以外有時候他還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9685.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9687.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
相關的累進廚藝還有活動所以我們也會在適當的時機來爭取較好人力但是以目前來講應該是介乎人力我們希望現在如果以1比9.8來講我們覺得還是不足我們希望能夠爭取到1比61比6為什麼 變1比6 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9710.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9733.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
因為我們現在努力但是你現在都1比9.8你要到1比61比6的目的是我們所謂的女性女兒我們不要把她限制那我問一個問題心社人員心理師社工本身能不能夠去協助教化人員分擔一下他現在的loading因為這是超標的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9735.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9755.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
因為心理師有心理師的專業跟教委師是不同的你不能把心理師拿去當教號人員用這些心理師他們會抗議的好那沒問題我只是看到我們心理師的人員我們可以做到社工跟心理師是滿足了現有的需求我認為也許 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9757.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9766.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
他不是直接去做教會人員的工作 但也許可以在一些課程啦 講習啦 或者是一些藝文活動啦的部分的規劃 是不是能夠做這樣子更彈性的作為這是我拋出來的 畢竟我沒有在寓所第一線工作我看到數字上 我會思考到有沒有可能彼此協調的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9779.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9788.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那另外請你們提供一個執訓人員就是寄訓人員 協助他們到社會能夠有一技之長的培育我不曉得實際的狀況是一比多少如果前面沒有這些數據好 那你回來回頭再統計給我好嗎好 可以那我來下一頁下一頁下一頁我回到空間好 這裡我提醒一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9803.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9823.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
依你們現在已經完工的台北監獄宜蘭監獄雲林第二監獄都完成了但他還是超收喔我要提醒一下部長他還是超收他還是有空間loading過重的問題喔那推動中的您剛剛所說的八德外醫監跟彰化看守所都可以增加收容2271名跟增加收容1188名很好推動中持續挺進OK |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9828.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9855.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
最後呢規劃中啦女子看守所跟台北看守所的簽件這是一個大的事情目前的預算規劃都沒有問題吧我們目前齁這個台北看守所跟台北女子看守所擴建工程我們預計會增加一千兩百個名額是加起來是沒有錯我知道那現在這個期程都還順暢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9857.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9872.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
目前我們施法延期在規劃當中因為這會是根本相對比較根本去解決北台灣地區收容超收的問題好不好那這個部分立法院會持續來支持是我們預計115年會取得用地 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9874.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9898.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
好 那就加油 那就是我們現在最健在弦上最重要的方案那最後一個 幾位請回那最後就是要跟這個主席請示一下因為今天我們排審的是這個監察院的組織法那我只是提醒一下我不希望司法法治委員會成為全立法院違憲法案最多的一個委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9900.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9914.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
用一個修法的方式來凌駕憲法所賦予的行政權的人事任命權它是違憲的你用法律來限縮用法律來 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9916.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9929.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
把手立法院的手又伸到行政權的任命權裡頭這又是違憲了我是認為這樣的一個修法有待商榷立法院不要再違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9930.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9934.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
第二個呢因為現在國民黨也跟民眾黨合作當然國民黨內部意見似乎還有分歧當中那到底你們是不是要修憲來廢監院呢那如果你們確定了就是要廢監院用修憲的方式的話的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9950.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9959.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那對 我在程序發言請問一下 這在開記者會嗎這是什麼程序發言嗎 你會議詢問嗎我是會議詢問啦所以我是說 既然已經有又有要修憲費監院你現在又來修法 又來審查高溫法 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9974.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9976.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這個該是開啟酒會嗎?這裡不是開啟酒會的場所啊!開啟酒會干擾我的安全!請問一下這是什麼發言?但是我也要持續啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9990.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10012.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
大家不要講 大家不要講 這樣啦 這樣因為我們還沒有審法條 麻煩各位 沒有審法條那吳委員 如果吳委員搞不清楚憲法 那請去看憲法徵求條文第七條好不好誰搞不清楚 是你在違憲 我做出一個司法法治委員會委員的提醒不要再違憲了 就是我的權宜問題 不要再違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10017.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10037.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
請鍾憲、張偉不要永遠評論別的委員的發言我只是提醒台北、台灣的立法院不要再違憲上癮了我再跟你這裡爭奪了就是最不講道理最不懂憲法的司法法治委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10038.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10052.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
來 沒關係啦 我跟你講我在這邊講很簡單 我已經講出憲法徵求條項第幾條依據第幾條 進行修法如果不懂的 不懂憲法 在這邊給我鬼扯說我們違憲請告訴我 你講的違憲是違第幾條我在這邊跟各位講憲法的依據是憲法徵求條項第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10058.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10082.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
好 所以請法律再來跟我們談立法院不是馬戲團 不要在立法院這邊秀下限請說第幾條的時候說明清楚這是我的做法 法律人的做法然後不要在那邊說別人違憲的時候講不出第幾條我告訴你一句第幾條 你還是講不出來不要這樣子 那我們現在休息違憲不是嘴巴喊的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10096.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10097.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
剛剛羅志強超時了十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10467.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10485.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
好 那我們繼續開會 下一位我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我請我們法務部矯正署好 麻煩部長 署長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10491.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10518.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
好部長署長今天我們的專題主要是針對我們現在監所超收還有我們在我們受刑人的這個他的人權問題那我也看到你們的報告裡面就說現在呢就說以這幾年就是在收容人這個暴力攻擊的事件平均一年六十件那這樣算起來的話大概一個月平均就五件這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10520.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10545.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
確實非常多那到底出現了什麼樣的問題那剛才大家也特別提到就是我們的監所的超收的比例事實上一直沒有辦法降下來但另外的部分就是說你監所超收而相關的受刑人的保障能不能夠落實我想請問一下在我們現在所有的這些監所裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10547.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10569.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
擁有這個醫療院所的 是不是只有台中監獄市博文寺 培德院區只有培德院區好 那現在就有問題 其實我們過去常常發現的不管是像柯文哲這個事件或者是之前像那個林秉樞他爸爸所控訴的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10570.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10581.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
也就是說今天我們如果在監所第一個他超收然後他因為超收的關係他的生活的品質甚至他的衛生他的相關可能都比較差所以很多人的反應是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10588.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10604.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
進入監所沒病變有病小病變大病大病變重病會有這樣的一個狀況所以剛才在特別提到的就是說今天我們一方面希望能擴增我們收容這個監所的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10605.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10629.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
但是我想請問一下如果只有台中監獄有醫療院所而且說他每天上午的門診光是門診就一天就會有200人之多那也算是非常非常多那更何況其他的監所有很多人可能有一些長期性的疾病那他怎麼處理那我剛才也有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10630.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10659.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
你們的報告裡面除了就說我們關心的介護人力、教化人力、新設人力其中我們在醫事人力的部分現有人和人力比醫事人力的最少醫事人力最少一個人要應對超過300人超過300人所以我想請問一下像這一部分我們未來有沒有一些改進的措施或辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10660.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10677.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
報告委員我們醫事人員比是1比228.3那一般我們有醫事人員出缺我們會比如說外面有需要來可以招考他符合資格就可以來我們監獄所來報名我們也會來盡力來招組這個醫事人員你是228.3這是你們今天的報告1比303呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10688.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10701.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
第七頁還是你們報告出錯但是不過不管是兩百多或三百這都是會牽涉到我們在整個監所裡面他們有關於他的醫療的保障權的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10704.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10720.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以我覺得這一點是不是在其他比較收容人數比較大的監所除了台中監獄之外台中監獄你說收容4900人可是你看像台北監獄收容人數也超過4000人所以你們是不是也應該要 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10722.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10736.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
擴充一些這樣子不是只有台中監獄才有醫療院所其他的監獄應不應該有我覺得這個部分也應該要去做通盤的考量另外剛剛講到台中監獄 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10738.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10750.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
台中監獄因為它人數就很多 超收率是10%其實我看到前面還有超收率到36%的然後我們現在法定的空間一個人到底是幾坪以往我們是0.7坪 現在應該是有一坪有一坪 但是我們現在有幾個監所達到呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10763.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10782.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們各監所這個要看要看它的收容人數當然在北部地區不容易達到但是比如說外藝監或是少年矯正學校那是沒有問題的那除了此之外呢其他監所沒有達到也沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10784.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10812.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們是用機動調整儀兼由北部來移到中南部去我們剛剛有提到醫療專區的問題我們台北建議有承報設置醫療專區的可行性我們本署還在評估當中所謂承報 是承報到法務部去了嗎到本署因為這個有涉及到是 涉及到經會還有相關要合作的醫療院所的意願的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10814.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10825.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
好 那這個大概什麼時候可以把它落實因為你看起來好像也還沒有到法部去啊是我們的審慎評估當中因為這個醫療專機目前我覺得啊 因為通常啊這個都會用審慎評估這幾個字我覺得啦 就說對於這些收容的人收容人本來就是還是要有他的基本人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10839.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10867.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
如果可行其實台北的醫療的資源是比較多的那跟這個北部的這些醫療院所來做合作我覺得那這樣就可以加速進行啊報告委員我們因為102年已經收容者有納入二代健保所以現在各監所跟鄰近的醫療院所都有合作因此這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10869.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10895.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
必要性 迫切性比以往沒有加入二代健保的時候是比較不一樣所以我們因為有相關的因素我們必須要在評估當中我還是希望你們能夠加速評估其實我當立委之後其實我們收到很多很多來自於這些監所這些收容人的這個陳情各式各樣各式各樣的陳情 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10898.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10909.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
而且我們又在確實監所發生很多的暴力事件而這些暴力事件我覺得跟我們目前的超收還有空間過小尤其現在天氣越來越炎熱我上次其實我有去那時候在當法治委員會的時候我也有去參觀的外議監 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10919.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10924.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
雖然我們現在有一些在硬體上面做了一些改善但是因為我們的收容人數實在是太多那麼多人有的幾個彪形大漢擠在那種小小的空間好像這麼炎熱的天氣有時候碰撞可能火氣都會來所以我們怎麼樣去能夠降低這些霸凌也好衝突也好我覺得這是非常有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10947.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10971.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那剛才講到爆發的是我們的這些在裡面的這些戒護人員還發生霸凌或者性侵的事件我覺得這更是不能夠去接受的因為有些是他們自己自己本身可能就已經會有一些這些他們的爭議啊爭執啊甚至那個這個出手這個大 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10972.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10990.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
大打出手都有可能但是我覺得基本上作為一些我們的介護人員我覺得就不應該要有這樣的霸凌或者是這種什麼衝突啊或虐待甚至這種性侵的事件一定要嚴懲好不好是 我們一定會主動移送偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10991.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11012.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那我想因為我們的時間關係我還是希望就是因為我剛特別問到有關於這個醫療的部分那醫療部分我們現在各監所超收的人數這麼多然後我們也發生了很多的受刑人老師說我剛提到的像柯文哲也好或林筆書也好這是因為社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11014.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11040.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
大眾大家矚目的案件大家關注的案件才發現說 哇怎麼他們進去沒多久就變成病情惡化這麼嚴重然後呢 甚至呢像林秉樞這麼高頭大嘛出來還要變成什麼用葉克膜但這只是因為他們是社會大家關注的人那至於社會沒有關注的人呢有多少因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11042.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11062.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
進了監所 最後我剛剛講嘛 沒病變有病有小病變大病所以我想請我們矯正署能夠把你們把這個有關於醫療品質 醫療的這個權利的保障的部分能不能提供一個書面給我們那個司法法治委員會 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11064.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11086.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好的那跟委員報告我們各矯正機關會遵照醫主該給他介護外醫我們就給他介護外醫但是如果要保外醫治那有保外醫治的條件那也要尊重醫師的醫主專業陪管所以我的意思就是那你們現在在監所裡面這些醫療我剛剛講醫療人員1比303這是你的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11091.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11111.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
1比3 醫事人員跟這些就是這些收容人員1比303你們就是遵照醫主那也有可能掛醫漏腕我真的覺得即便他是在服刑 受刑人今天如果是我們的家人呢我真的看到這些我都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11112.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11124.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
哇 怎麼一下出來就是在那邊關了一段時間哇 整個人就完全那個什麼整個身體都垮掉所以請你們一個月夠不夠一個月時間夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11126.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11145.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
給我們一個 可以報告委員剛剛您提到的台中的醫療專區我有針對行後已經搬出去的大渡山莊那邊多增加200多的床位所以醫療台中監獄的收治的量能它有比較擴大這個我們已經做到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11146.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11157.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 那你就 因為我就不耽誤大家時間 好不好你就把這些相關的報告 因為除了台中監獄還有其他的監獄啊對不對 其他的監所 好不好 就提供給我們 好 謝謝好 謝謝 下一位我們請劉書斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11176.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11177.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
有請監察院王蜂蜜署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11186.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11207.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好,複密你好,那今天想要跟您請教的就是關於這一個多月以來發生的監察院濫用公務車委員的公務車的這個問題那想請教的是,副秘書長,那目前貴院在處理三個監察委員跟一個秘書長這些部分,那在自律的部分怎麼處理法? |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11209.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11229.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
跟委員說明就是我們針對三位委員就是三位委員公務車使用的問題已經移到紀律委員會去什麼時候要開會那紀律委員會呢他在監察院的規定他不是一個定期會不是每個月開或是每一季開不是好所以現在還沒有時間表對不對還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11231.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11244.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好 這個問題非常重要 因為之前我剛剛有聽到 傅斌爽你在說的監察委員他自律的情況之下 他就必須一個清廉正直對不對 超出黨派這個清廉正直 我們現在只看到他濫用公務車但是如果後面其實只是冰山一角 後面一大串的時候應該要做調查 尤其是作為一個浴室大夫 這樣子很清廉的這樣的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11255.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11284.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因此我們繼續往下看在一個沒有這樣的調查只是一個自律委員會的時候我們繼續往下看可是事實上過去的歷史當中有這種案例五院當中包括的是監察院往下看的時候監察院有陳鋒義的秘書長被彈劾行政院有兩個秘書長林錫山跟林義士都被彈劾了這些都是有跡可循的那這一部分我的意思是說有一些指示可以呈現出來那我們繼續再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11286.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11300.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
監察委員本身也會有彈劾的機會喔但是這部分我想要是說部分是我們看到監察委員也是有被彈劾這個過去有歷史包括是在民國86年我們看到的是有一個是蔡 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11302.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11326.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
蔡慶柱委員對蔡慶柱委員的時候他也是違法收取到賄賂這部分也是被彈劾了那我們繼續往下看的時候有這些例子當中包括的是我們看到的副院長李鴻鈞他提到的是因為涉及到檢調了被已經介入了所以這部分呢他就暫時停住可是他所引用的這個監察法的施行細則的27條當中其實不是這樣寫的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11330.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11350.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這可以看到27條寫的是什麼調查的案件呢如果呢在刑事偵查或審判當中不停止調查涉及到行政責任的時候因以犯罪成立與否為段看有沒有必要停止調查那這個地方的時候監察委員有20幾個29位對不對扣掉的是正副院長之外然後另外有3個3個 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11353.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11374.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
目前的可能有這樣子但用之嫌的其實還有24位然後24位中間取出9位出來這部分我們沒有出現到一個高標準在叼求自己那請問的是副秘書長您在今天聽到的這樣很多關於監察院的一個資訊你有什麼看法如果你做一個幕僚的話現在最高級的幕僚你怎麼想要去對監察院的這些委員跟副院長說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11378.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11396.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這個跟委員說明一下就是目前的狀況就是已經移到紀律委員會那監察院呢是依照憲法是29位監察委員包括院長跟副院長是那第六屆的監察院呢那因為有一位委員有一位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11397.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11419.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
人數是夠的嘛 對不對沒有 並沒有就任嘛然後有一位已經九個人就可以成立一個委主持一個小組來去做這些事情了是 然後那您再拖時間喔 趕快說一下您的建議是什麼 直接了當說一下要不要去請 他們趕快去召開一個紀律委員會紀律委員會他會依照他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11419.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11435.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
案量跟他的委員的共同的時間因為有七位紀律委員然後會召開紀律委員會這是沒有問題 這是紀律委員會但是調查不問題事實上也是可以再進行的再跟委員說明那紀律委員會在處理相關的調查案件他可以收集相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11436.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11448.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
資料他也可以推派或輪派委員調查這都是紀律委員會在處理請你承諾是不是可以你作為一個資深的最高的幕僚你是不是要趕快敦促他們進行是還是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11450.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11465.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這跟我說明 這個是不管是監察案件或者是目前紀律委員會處理的案件都是監察委員在獨立行使他的職責好 在這個情況之下我們繼續往下看很快就結束 在這邊我們看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11466.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11489.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
既然以這樣子一個正直清廉要求自己的監察委員這個自律委員會的開放 開設 開舉行 都這樣子的拖三拉四的部分難怪我們現在形容到 今天在往下一頁看的時候其他國家的部分 在丹麥跟芬蘭 他們沒有監察院 但是他們有監察室可以在國會的部分呢 在有特定條件之下可以讓監察 國會 可以讓這個國會的監察室去去職 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11492.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11512.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
當然我們看到其他國家部分呢這個部分根據監察院的這個報告裡面呢也看到說有不同的這個有立法委員立法機構去產生的當然也有部分是從行政所長去產生的但是如果看到這個情況之下我們繼續往下看在看到的情況之下如果監察委員呢他自己本身出現廉政跟操守這麼多的問題的話他已經衝擊到了是監察人民對監察院的公信力的一個信心面 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11518.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11534.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那法規面跟過程呢都過去歷史其實都有有跡可循齁完全可以去自清門戶當然你們要啟動你們調查包括副院長要呈現出來說我們就繼續往這邊因為高標準的情形嘛你們監察院確實一直在往拖延齁明明就轉移焦點所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11535.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11554.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
如果當我們台灣的做法是這個國會設計當中大部分偏偏成兩部分但是由於監察院也已經不是民意機關既然這樣子的一個設計當中你們沒辦法去發生真正好的功用的話呢就是就是把它廢除到監察院包括陳菊院長他自己說他是要變成說希望是末代院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11555.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11576.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
希望就是說這個地方我們民眾黨提到出來就是這個監察權就把它轉移到立法院去那這個立法院強化去監督才能真正變成是能夠打蒼蠅又打老虎的這個監察權的一個落實才能真正的去達到監督的效用好 謝謝那下一位請林國成委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11593.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11593.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
現在因為祕書長已經離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11617.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11638.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
所以現在是應該所有秘書業務是你來作業所以從早上到現在我對極為不滿的就是紀立委員會什麼時候開請你不要在那邊打爛戰我就是立法院的紀立委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11640.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11663.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
紀律委員會是對內的調查對內的調查只要副院長他都已經宣示了這麼清楚馬上可以開你們不開你們還在那邊拖我不怪你但是副院長既然都已經信誓旦旦向全國人民都告訴人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11664.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11691.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
紀律委員會要開 紀律委員會並非宴會紀律委員會並非監察院行駛之前它是合一制對於監察委員的 封記的這些會議要不要開 是你們在決定到現在為止 你們都沒有要開請問王滬密 到底什麼時候要開 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11694.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11697.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這跟委員說明那這個基地委員會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11698.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11723.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
不要再跟我講紀律委員會紀律委員會本來就是任務編組是我們監察委員裡面推出來的臨時編組隨時可以開 隨時不開要不要開是現在主管在做決定你身為一個代理幕僚長回去要馬上跟副院長因為院長現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11725.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11750.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
請假但是副院長在行使院長之前要不要開是本來就有編制裡面的紀律委員會甚至於像我們立法院是有輪子的召集人有案子當然要馬上去開的啊所以你不要再跟我講這個什麼時候要開你告訴我什麼時候要開 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11752.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11772.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我可以說明一下就是紀律委員裡面的委員是院長副院長以外的其他的委員我知道你不要再跟我浪費這個時間好不好黃文明我要你什麼時候要開這個委員今天的想法我會帶回去好你帶回去齁我還是會繼續追好第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11776.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11787.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我對監察院是傷心透敵過去大家對於監察院本來是一個意識功能可是現在的監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11788.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11809.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
全國人民一看到你們就是搖頭那我請問一下我們現在監察院帶頭違法我要請問一下最小最小的事情這個覆秘應該很清楚你們到底監察院現在上廁所的衛生紙的問題解決了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11811.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11835.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這個妳總是知道吧我知道 我可以說明沒有 還是沒有因為我們沒有任何你們現在都沒有用衛生紙我們有用衛生紙要自己攜帶自己攜帶那很好如果外賓來的話也是要麻煩他要自己攜帶但妳要貼個公告妳要貼個公告說你們到監察院來陳情的時候你們要自己貼公告知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11837.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11847.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
繼續這樣勤儉下去 好不好好 另外一個就是我特別也要提醒我們王滬密 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11850.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11866.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
請監察院不要帶頭造謠這是非常重要的這是非常重要所以慶祝藍書啦監察院我認為一時功能已喪失我還要在最後請教我們王滬密請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11868.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11873.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我感覺到很奇怪我們立法院開會都開了時間冗長那請問一下監察院那為什麼開會的記錄從13分鐘收到9分鐘收到6分鐘收到4分鐘請問這個會議到底是真的或假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11891.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11907.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我指的是時間啦不要浪費我時間時間是記錄所以它是真的然後呢另外呢就是為什麼監察院的院會會開的比較時間比較短那這個其實副院長也有說明已經取得共識了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11908.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11936.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這是違反了違反一個調查單位監督單位根本開會哪有這麼快的時間報告委員就是我們的院會有會議規則他的規則他有他的任務他的任務都是行政事項他不涉及到任何的個案任何的個案必須在常設委會老百姓對於這些是非常不諒解的知道嗎王烏蜜你們不要坐在辦公室認為你們監察委員為什麼要 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11938.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11952.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
本黨為什麼要想廢掉這是走正當程序至於是不是憲法裡面容許那這個是另外一回事那為什麼我們會主張把監察院廢掉那主張就看你們這種表現真的啊老百姓是看不過去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11958.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11986.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
好這個主席給我一輪錢好不好給我一輪錢好 王文明我希望你紀律委員會趕快開第二個這些啊最後一句話也就是賴審的話你們要聽喔賴審的話你們要聽喔他都主張要會監察院這個講話的時候是因為他在當台南市長的時候他就要會 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11988.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12006.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
監察院這點賴總統講的話你們要聽所以要準備要面對全國人民對與會監察院也就是一死精神已死監察院該會的時候所以王滬斃回去跟院長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12007.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12026.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
紀律委員會該開的趕快開衛生紙要公開告訴老百姓說你們要自己自帶衛生紙最後開會的時間真的該改的還是要改沒有那麼簡單的好不好好謝謝好謝謝那我們先處理會議時間上個會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12033.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12043.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
後休息 因為中午民進黨黨團要開會所以我們中午休息到一點半繼續開會接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言主席好你好有請複密署長麻煩複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12065.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12090.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
副委員好副秘書長好我們在114年度審核監察院的預算的時候監察院也開了一場記者會說監察院快要斷水斷電了公屋車也沒有辦法支付油錢結果馬上就被爆出除了李憲憶秘書長還有多名監委 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12092.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12107.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
公欺私用用公屋車送自己的狗狗去寵物美容去看牙醫去美髮院請教我們院長剛剛說這些項目哪一個符合公屋的行程哪一個符合跟委員說明這個案件目前是在紀律委員會在處理中 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12116.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12134.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以說哪一個符合我可不可以說明一下就是的確是所有的公務車目前的使用都是油料費的部分都是由使用人來支付的包括保險跟維養的部分都是由使用人來支付 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12135.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12149.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
欺負基層的公務人員沒有衛生紙有錢可以讓公車加油這個就是欺負我們的基層的人員所以我們當初監察院說的預算招侃很大要調整內部經費但卻在拍公車這件事上毫無把關大大方方浪費我們國家的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12164.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12175.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
民眾的納稅錢還有辛苦繳的血汗錢全部來用在監委的私用嗎我們監察院副院長在6月2號的時候記者會有說會張這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12180.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12199.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
披露藍圍的送紀律委員會那我們請教一下 剛才大家都很多人在請教你我們要說明 跟我們大眾說明辭職的秘書長是否也不用送紀律委員會了嗎他離職有沒有要送 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12200.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12228.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
跟委員說明一下那個有關於紀律委員會的設置辦法會移送到紀律委員會的只有監察委員因為他是監察委員紀律設置辦法所以他只有監察委員所以就是我們秘書長是不用就是他是可以也沒有人監督他也不用送也沒有他離職就耍對不對放錯離職再來到別的部門再升職是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12229.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12248.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
官吏委員只是目前沒有立案調查並不表示說因為目前北檢在偵查中那至於後續這個案件如何處理那就是看後續的所以說這樣子就不送的話後續就是救者應該由誰來 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12250.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12260.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
負責任 還是說辭職了 就是不是監察院的事了送紀委員會不是 我們秘書長可以送啦但是我們 現在我們媒體揭露的是只有三位所以目前我們紀委員會已經開會了嗎現在就是 我覺得開會只有三四分鐘啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12273.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12288.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
一 過去的經驗 紀委連會要多久有結果 還有說我們送紀委員的時間這些監委的行責 權力上有沒有什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12291.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12318.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這個部分我們也想要知道因為很多人在看所以我們也希望說你要說明所以我們要問的就是說我們還有我們的副院長也在記者會有說針對拍車的制度應該要全面檢討但是我們監察院是否針對行政的部分全面調查所有拍車的是否符合公務的名目 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12319.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12342.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
是不是還有其他監委有工期之用的情況這邊這個你們都有做嗎不是說檢討就好所以檢討再研議再討論這個可能你們要去做一個行政院的公仔來去裝你們貼文就好了 不用回答所以說我們要的是實質 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12346.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12369.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
委員說不用回答嗎不是 我意思說你要回答是你們要做的事不要跟我講說就是說回去再討論再研議這個就是變成你們用公仔的來去貼文就好不要在這邊回答這些話我的意思不要在這裡回答這些話啦這些話對我們來說沒有用啦所以讓你們去貼公仔就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12371.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12396.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好跟委員說明就是有關於這個有監察委員或者我們秘書長使用公務車有可能有使用不當的問題那第一就是的確是台北台北地方法院地方檢察署目前在偵查中然後有關於三位委員的那部分呢已經移到紀律委員會那為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12398.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12413.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
目前還沒有很明確的開會的時間因為這是上個禮拜上個禮拜有兩個陳情人來陳情有關於監委私用公務車的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12414.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12435.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
依照人民數目處理辦法收了以後那要經過執事委員的核批所以有一定的程序移到紀律委員會那目前已經在紀律委員會那至於紀律委員會剛剛委員也說他是任務編組所以呢他不是一個定期會議他會適照是議案或者是委員的時間然後有七位委員再來開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12438.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12446.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這個是你的程序我們是說你會這樣子做剛才你有回答過我在問你們的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12447.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12450.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
從這個媒體揭露你們就會去查沒有的話你們這些有沒有通盤去檢討還有是檢查 這個你們也沒有嘛就是說有在檢討這個部分所以我們才說你們都是檢討在討論這些的話我們不想再聽了我們希望的是實質定時間行程要做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12472.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12488.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
因為我們沒辦法確認 也沒有其他人的沒有人來檢舉 你們就不知道怎麼辦了 對不對所以有揭露的話就送雞尾為黑沒有揭露的話 你們就不知道怎麼做了所以我們希望說 我們覺得說我們監察院的職責都在就是彈劾 糾正 還有糾取單位的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12496.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12511.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
居然是說自己的欄尾就是就是等別人來去跟你自己講你自己來扮,扮就是寥寥這樣子耍所以我們覺得說別人說我們監察院就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12513.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12519.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
養老院就一點都不部分所以我們稍微再給我一點時間所以我們再來再問的是說第二題就是問題說在我們台灣民眾黨就是對監察院的職責也包則懷疑因為當年也包含就是我們許多民進黨的委員們在2013年的時候陳其邁還有其他委員都說六年監察院彈劾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12543.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12559.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
只有200案太少了彈劾標準不一主張要廢除監察院那我們看來就是蔡英文執政的時候也是在107年到112年也是一樣6年彈劾案件也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12560.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12585.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
少 也是151案而已所以按照民進黨當年的標準不是應該要廢除監察院嗎砍了監察院的預算 也應該是民進黨的主張啊所以我們蔡英文執政的時候也曾經說過近來在朝野也同意要推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12586.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12599.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
費考驗這都是可以優先進行也要盡快提出黨黨的修憲方向結果上一週民進黨幹事長吳思瑤發言說若你們為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12604.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12617.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
個人保護的行為廢除監察院洗心動面的就很囉所以我們看來這番話他要嗆誰呢是過去的陳其邁還是現在的陳菊院長因為院長在 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12623.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12647.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
去年6月5日的時候也說支持廢除監察院過去蔡英文總統支持廢除監察院現任成功接棒的賴清德總統也有說過支持廢除監察院所以呢接棒成功後呢繼續擺爛所以我們要給我們吳思瑤委員就keep it給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12652.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12679.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
一百個讚 直接罵他們這幾個人很弱 你們很弱 你們提這個所以我們全國人民都關心民進黨如何把監察院變成酬庸院民進黨不要大轉彎還是捨不得放棄養肥貓的監察院關於彈劾案的數量太少反而就是世界認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12681.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12702.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
功能不彰 所以現在的話我們給副牧師長的跟大家說明今天我們無招委要排就是讓你說明你的立場所以呢你說明了說不到立場所以我們才會要求所以我們要跟我們過去的我們報告我們的蔡英文總統還有我們現任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12707.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12730.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
賴清德總統吳思瑤說你們提出廢除監察院很Low啊所以呢不願意執行但是我們台灣民眾黨目前已經完成連署這一周就是一級會完成修憲的提案到的時候呢我們希望過去的民進黨的委員還有口口聲聲說支持廢除 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12733.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12747.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
監察院還有現任民進黨的委員大家要多多支持千萬不要法雜彎過去你們喊口號的沒人執行台灣民眾黨來幫你們實現 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12749.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12764.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
希望朝野一心支持盡快成立修憲委員會啟動廢除監察院實際落實憲政的工程所以我們希望你 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12765.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12787.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
不要在說你們的工作的過程啦我們要的就是直接 時間 期程 什麼時候 怎麼辦怎麼去查 那是你來的目的啦不然在說怎麼樣怎麼樣 這個是你們的工作不要跟我們報告 我們要的是實際落實以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請陳昭資委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12798.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12801.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
謝謝主席 有請部長麻煩部長早上黃國昌委員 吳宗憲委員還有莊瑞選委員都有詢問到就是跟您提到檢察官的倫理規範那這邊我要請教部長對於法務部來說檢察官的倫理規範第13條究竟是怎麼樣的一個條文呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12824.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12842.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這條說檢察官在執行職務時要有專業態度對被告或證人詢問時不得用強暴、脅迫、利誘等等不正方法也就是不能有不正詢問那檢察官也不能用笑虐、怒罵或歧視情形請問法務部要如何避免這條規範淪為巨文呢請部長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12846.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12861.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那個開庭的態度法務部都非常的重視那目前的做法事實上我們有再去做一個抽查那抽查那這部分如果有發現這個情形我們也會勸導就是說我們要注意那個開庭的態度部長請問你會認為摯愛難行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12864.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12879.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這個本來就一直在督導在做所以不會至愛難行那本來就是在做啦那一直在做那為什麼又出現了不小重大的冤案呢那些冤案是怎麼來的呢怎麼會有冤案呢我不曉得委員是指哪一個冤案啦證信證信者啊或是蕭明月啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12880.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12895.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
那個起訴了那自然有法院獨立的一個審判嘛那如果說對這些開庭的態度是不是會有影響到這個證據能力的問題啊一百刑訴數啊一百五十六證據能力的問題那這部分那可以在開庭的時候帶一個主張嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12897.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12926.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
就是怎麼樣讓這個冤案司法的尊嚴公正人權不要送服我給你看證人保護法第34條請尊重我的執行權證人保護法第4條第1、2、3項規定看污條件的被告或犯罪嫌疑人在偵查過程中如果提供或公訴也就是他的自白證詞其他被告的犯罪事實那可以讓檢察官可以追溯其他的被告這個人就可以變成污點證人 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12927.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12951.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
那他也可以請法官對他做出這些他本身做不起訴處分那也請法官可以減輕或免除其刑部長請問我對這條條文的解讀正確嗎?政治正確嗎?這個是法律的規定好OK那部長那轉為污點證人就可能不會被檢察官起訴或是真的可以減輕甚至免除他的刑責那對於這個原本是被告的污點證人是不是很有利? |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12952.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12963.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
是不是很有力這個法律上對鼓勵共犯的一個自白是不是很有力嘛這個是優惠的一個規定鼓勵一個自白可以減輕或免除 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12969.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12996.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
所以當這個刑事務法規定檢察官不可以用利誘的方式對被告不正詢問時原本是從被告轉為污點證人的自白辯詞你要如何證明他是在這個人的自由意志下所做出的任意自白是沒有受到檢察官的利誘影響所做的罪據真實性的檢察官要有責任去保障對嗎?我這樣說對嗎?這個利誘就是出於一個不法的一個行為的利誘 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12996.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13014.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那如果說是告知法律上的一個優惠的規定這是一個合法的這是對被告有利的一個當然一定要跟被告講清楚嘛所以警察對被告有利不利都要注意那更何況是證人證人的話證人保護法是證人保護法就是保護一定要給被告一個共同共犯如果當證人的時候要給他一個優惠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13022.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13031.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
我國刑事制度追訴是禁止檢查官利用轉為污點電人或不起訴這個理由要求被告投訴罪其他人不利的話這個原則你同意嗎不得利用轉為污點電人或不起訴這個理由去利誘他這個我看這個書上有一些的一個界定了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13044.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13052.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
如果說告訴他 你轉入污點證人 這是一個合法的行為這是證人保護法規定的 剛才委員不是有講得很清楚的嗎你沒有針對我的問題 我國的證人保護法針對檢察官應該要確保保障被告的自白證人要有任意性跟真實性那如果說證人有違證的話 他就違證嘛 用違證罪來處罰嘛我們要如何去避免污點證人成為檢察官濫用國家權利的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13070.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13075.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
這件事就非常重要因為你沒有規定嘛你要怎麼避免我問你這不重要嘛怎麼要避免這不重要嘛不是 你聽不懂嗎我是問你如何避免他污點證成為檢察官濫用國家權的工具你同意嗎這個非常重要啊如何避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13090.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13092.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
本來就是要 檢察官本來就是要依照目前的刑訴法檢察官徵詢過程必須要全程錄音 錄影也就是說當未來當未來有出現對自白政治有任意性 真實性有爭執的時候或是認為有不正詢問的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13107.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13128.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
這個時候就可以作為證明之用啊也就是說檢察官徵訊每一個被告證人的徵訊光碟內容到底如何就是用來檢視污點證人自白證詞是否有真實是否基於被告自由意志的唯一工具對不對他本來就是有對證有規定如果有證詞的話在審理中的話可以提出嘛提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13128.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13133.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
部長我是問你原則問題 你的態度問題這個本來我們就是依法來處理嘛 依法處理這個本來就是依法 而且委員你關心的就是一百條之一的請問被告人全職錄影 錄影嘛 連續錄影嘛在康恩條案裡面我們最近看到台北地檢署在審判過程中對面對被告審慶敬質疑污點證人會主席阿虎 我跟你講不要去在那題個案你這個個案的問題你應該在審理中的案件你應該到法庭去主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13153.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13155.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
他提出北檢說我在問你原則問題北檢說為了訴訟經濟所以反對我來談這個問題訴訟經濟所以反對開院徵訊光碟北檢你在怕什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13170.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13177.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
北檢沒有在怕 北檢就依法執行之務 依法偵辦 依法實現公司面對質疑不就是把這個證訊觀點讓法院來勘驗嗎認真的反駁被告的質疑 怎麼法院快說起來不敢勘驗呢 把北檢的判斷 沒理由不理你公安問題你過去也擔任過第一線檢察官 沒理由不理你公安問題如果你去檢察官面對不證訊問的質疑 最好的方式不就是公開證訊觀點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13198.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13204.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
讓法院來看驗嗎?這個是法院的職權 那個可以在法院上去主張現任大法官劉伯祥說過 偵查室內什麼事都可以發生所以全程錄音錄音錄影是必要的 必要時還得公開有法羅秉成 前發言人 他也說公開偵訊有和不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13217.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13224.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
你如果一直迴避問題,你是不是鼓勵...我沒有在迴避問題,我是按照法律的規定來處理,來回答的你是不是鼓勵用訴訟經濟這個理由蓋牌不證訊問呢?我沒有什麼訴訟經濟,我不曉得委員的訴訟經濟究何所指啦但是檢查在執行職務,那本來就是依法律來規定來處理如果說委員你有關係,有一些認為依託法律的這些問題,那個所得的證據,那個在法庭上是可以主張嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13242.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13246.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
你今天我們是要你公開的一個態度跟立場講清楚這群光碟就是為了後來的問題一出現的時候先把它全程錄音錄影到有質疑的時候拿出來勘驗連勘驗都不行嗎那你做事檢察官說訴訟經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13265.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13277.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
訴訟經驗可以蓋過程序正義嗎你現在從談到這些全部說是個案裡面的法庭的官方以及證據的一些的要不要勘驗都有問題你說管家檢察官用這樣的理由那我問你啊假設你自己當過檢察官啊你來面對我的倫理規範你都不敢講啊我沒什麼不敢講啊就是有質疑啊不准人民有質疑嗎我沒有什麼不能質疑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13289.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13305.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
記者說你的態度是什麼 徵訊觀點請允許公開看驗徵訊觀點請允許公開看驗讓台灣的司法維持尊嚴公正跟基本的人權保障要依照法律的規定啦好 謝謝主席好 謝謝 那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13328.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13350.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
請法務部長跟監察院的複密麻煩複密 法務部長委員好保定剛才趙志偉問你檢測官的倫理規範第13條裡面有沒有入罵 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13356.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13382.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
或者是不合適的這個不正的訊問你說你會抽查你如果有發現你會去倒證對不對今天早上黃國昌給你看的那個是不是一個辱罵那沒有違反一個檢察官該有的倫理規範嗎現在更嚴重的那是一個模擬的示範光碟啦其實你鑽石業有聽到嗎包括少秀配比這個更嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13384.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13396.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
邵秀佩是直接你們的檢察官喔直接怎麼問他他說你有用廉政署那一套你現在可以呼嚨過去嗎你可以呼嚨過去嗎你給我試看看這是不是不正的訊問有沒有這個當事人之間或證人之間有沒有這些的問題現在法院在審理中嘛我覺得我們任何人都應該跟涉法院的一個審判嘛包括你我都在內這個邵秀佩在庭上都有證實了嘛所以柯文哲明確說把這個光碟呈現給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13412.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13430.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
給大家看 結果你們的檢察官 你們背景的檢察官可以阻擋說光底可以公開 你是作賊心虛啊你要跟法官主張 這是法院審理中我們不適合在這裏去談論審理中的問題法定 你們如果沒有不正信問 沒有作賊心虛為什麼連光底都不可以 都不可以勘驗啊為什麼都不能公開呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13435.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13440.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
你嚴重違反這個倫理規範不是嗎你現在不是個案欸你當一個大家長你的檢察官辦案辦成這樣子全國都有質疑的時候你不去導正人們強辯這個我沒有強辯喔現在案件在法院的審理照反正這一光碟陸陸續續都會出來會有真相的人民也會看法務部為什麼要掩蓋那麼多的事實好來請阿王 王副秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13464.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13486.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
妳在監察院應該很久了啦,對不對?是,我在監察院快40年妳有發現啦,妳最近監察院的工作量啊,打折又打折結果薪水一直要往上走嗎?我去統計了一下,妳第五屆應該已經在監察院了對不對?在監察院你們開的這個宴會,在第五屆的時候我去統計了37次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13488.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13493.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
平均的開會時間75.97到你這一屆的新的監察院打對折耶同樣是開院會砍了一半的時間剩下多少33.67 更過分了陳其英 陳院長打不掉生病以後 又打對折 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13515.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13543.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我去看你們最近這五次 開會的這個時間齁 真的是有幾次啊你們這一屆不足十分鐘的會議有十次陳局 陳院長請假完之後要開四分鐘的 開六分鐘的要照這個院會去比較你們薪水是不是應該打折 再打折是不是只能頂四分之一你們這樣怎麼對得起人民偶爾混偶爾入民脂民膏 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13544.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13570.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
跟委員說明一下有關於監察職權是不是有比第五屆行使有減少的狀況其實我們有統計我們有統計不管是人民書狀的收受或者是彈劾的人數或者是糾舉或者是糾正甚至質問等等或者中央巡查地方巡查我們所有職權的行使跟第五屆比較起來同期比較起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13571.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13578.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我給你同樣的標準啦你議會是那不只是同樣的院會不只是萎縮欸萎縮到以前的四分之一特別是陳琦陳院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13582.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13608.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
你們是智慧武功嗎你們怎麼可以這樣對待你們怎麼對得起你們領的薪水欸 一個監察院的監察委員這位女生多少錢比照部會首長欸這樣怎麼對得起民眾啊下次的宴會你們承諾下次宴會好好開好啊 虧你至少回到第六屆或第五屆的一開始嘛你們現在根本我就看你們議程連案子都沒內什麼共識連案子都沒內怎麼對得起民眾然後你們怎麼花錢你們竟然會編列出國的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13613.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13640.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這北海道看天熊 種錢當然要砍啊不砍對得起民眾嗎這一個 所以現在監察院為什麼要廢除一個是功能不彰 浪費人民的民脂民膏你一開始 你們今年編的預算欸 十億九千萬欸三減完之後 還有八億多欸你們用的是每一分錢都是人民辛辛苦苦的納稅錢一年的監察院花我們人民納稅錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13642.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13654.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
八億都是這樣開會的一個是浪費民脂民膏的同時 更嚴重的是什麼變成個酬庸 養老院的同時工人還不髒 甚至變成民進黨的打手我給你看幾個案子 來不只是大家一直在討論的欸你們用公務車去送自己的愛犬去去美容的同時時間趕快不能再拖了 你們說立即要調查對不對立即調查一個多月快兩個月了 這樣怎麼對得起人民不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13672.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13680.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
你們秘書長李經歷下台的問題 還有三個人送紀律委員會要開要趕快開 你們時間是在賽跑的你們立即怎麼會變成一個多月兩個多月還在立即更嚴重的來 你看看你們的案子你們是這樣對不起人民的嗎是變成民進黨的打手陳中彥台南地檢署還起訴他他接受這個後花酒這個招待業者也承認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13698.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13715.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
相關的人全部都承認了只有一個人陳仲諺到後來沒有談而成還11比2你們怎麼對得起人民呢這是當初要設立監察院的目的嗎你們不只沒有好好去辦這個犯罪變成個貪腐的共犯集團了超思雞蛋超思雞蛋在110年的9月份就檢舉了 就已經到你們那邊去檢舉了已經快三年了耶你們辦到哪裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13728.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13736.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
你紀念你秘書長站在你這樣的位置他說等北檢一定會彈劾等北檢調查完好那我問這還算不算數 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13737.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13760.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
報告委員那個陳忠義案件我剛剛有說明過了有關於超思的部分呢其實是有已經有提出調查報告而且有糾正也有糾結也有彈劾然後而且把相關的資料市政資料非常完整的移到檢察署去偵辦你們那個調查齁最重要的兩個人高高舉舉輕輕放下真正決策者是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13761.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13776.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那些人就去保定啊 身體重 約了以後就放回去啦 對不對林聰賢啊 中央市長會啊 你們有查嗎你們碰到民進黨的高官就轉彎啊所以人家才說你們打蒼蠅啊 蚊子院啊 蒼蠅院啊碰到民進黨就轉彎啊 雙標院啊怎麼對得起人民 現在更嚴重的超時雞蛋 你看 該辦的人還沒有辦第二個時機已經拖這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13785.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13804.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
你那個糾正報告雖然有提了某部分 關鍵的人沒有好好辦嘛最重要兩個人嘛好 那現在我再問啦我問了李慶利 他說一定會彈劾嘛有 有彈劾沒有彈劾啊 你現在只聽在糾正啊有糾正 有糾決 有彈劾你們現在彈劾了誰我們已經彈劾了張經緯 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13806.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13834.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
只有一個嘛 對不對那其他你本來調查的還有其他的官員呢跟委員說明這個監察院在處理彈劾案件糾舉案件是有相關的事證具備了以後那才會對人來究責對嘛 所以你們的秘書長答應我說會儘快去辦這個案子嘛我們要彈劾嘛 結果你現在只辦了一個人嘛第二個當然為什麼要把華國部長找上來 否定你這個超思雞蛋拖三個月啊你們現在全部在辦柯文哲在辦那個國民黨那個什麼幽靈連署是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13836.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13853.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
一個超思雞蛋你們把相關人約去你們就停跟委員報告這台北電在爭判中那也搜索了 也扣案了也扣案了 也有約談了那我想這部分我們也尊重北檢的偵查機構因為我對...博定 你知道你前面約談到現在停多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13854.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13869.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
這個我們尊重北檢的審查計畫因為我覺得你按那個暫停鍵你已經按了多久了我覺得要給人家檢查你們現在是所有的審理都在辦柯文哲都在辦那個國民黨的那個幽靈連署炸佩娜那麼多不好好辦然後一個超出基站人民納稅前當會五億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13875.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13904.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
聽太久了吧 你怎麼對得起人民而且你們的辦案是怎麼樣剛剛在講的陳其仲跟林聰賢你們約去以後人家請回了耶所有台灣的民眾都看得清有第一個大會人民那麼多錢超過五億耶 五億三千萬耶第二個真的結社者都沒事你們在辦案你們怎麼對得起人民時間太長 該辦的人不辦但如果辦的話有搜索 有扣押扣了六千多萬 六千九百多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13906.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13916.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
扣啦 五億三千多萬你扣了六千多而且現在把責任全部都推給那個業者這是什麼 官員被騙沒關係 這個案子第一個我看你要再拖多久 第一個辦出來所以現在人民眼睛是血亮的啦在看法務部怎麼辦 在看監察院怎麼辦這個案子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13929.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13944.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
因為這個案件是北檢在辦我覺得我要尊重北檢他們獨立的偵查權我們要給他一個好的不要去受到任何干涉的一個辦案空間嘛對啦 你北檢在辦案有興趣的 他在辦的柯文哲什麼好像在雷力風行如果他不想辦的該約的人也不好好關鍵人不好好辦 這個人品會判斷的到底有沒有雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13957.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13983.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
有沒有雙標 人民會親入看另外還有一個案子我特別提醒 監察那個 複密去年啦 河山場的一號機停了之後台電竟然去跟燒煤的麥寮又繼續延約了一堆雲林嘉義跟彰化的民眾還有一些民團 環保團體都上來抗議我還陪著他們親人存錢喔這個案子要辦喔 你不能再拖了 已經拖久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13985.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14001.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
報告委員,我們已經提出調查意見,已經有提出上個...那你們去追責任,有沒有繼續再燒嗎?你們的意見是怎麼樣?衛土然後呢?衛土然後繼續燒,然後繼續傷害我們人民的健康,火力要全開,用這個燒煤,婚姻人家想怎麼燒,嫁娶嫁,種花人家想怎麼燒 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14003.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14031.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
會線一直在往上走那叫設監察院幹什麼?所以我剛剛講一開始設監察院直施抨擊耶結果你現在已經幾個問題了第一個你浪費民脂民膏你功能不髒的同時第二個變成養老院然後更嚴重的你現在變成說該有的案子到你那邊時程大或者沒有處理你不只沒有直施抨擊發揮你該有的糾正或者是彈劾的這個潛力耶一時呆屋沒有發生潛力他還變成貪腐的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14033.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14054.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
欸 變成溫床咧你這樣不是變成共犯嗎所以當然要刪掉啊廢除監察院我相信你現在去做一個投票全民大概我相信在這八成以上都要廢監察院好在廢之前廢五之言啦富民你說你在監察院待那麼久了監察院以前曾經高峰諒解過我七十兩年開始一直照監察院的新聞的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14055.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14062.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那今天才能多被人家尊敬啊 雷震案 雷震案什麼一個案子每次議員會外講 那個時候都是各報的頭版頭欸記者在那邊鎖著 可能一兩個月前 就開始在追那個新聞啊你們提出來的糾正案或者彈劾案 全民都是矚目的 對社會是正面的那搞到現在變成一個文子院 還變成一個貪腐的一個溫床 怎麼會這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14079.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14091.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
七百以前的理想跟改革找回來好不好廢之前趕快重振這個監察院的雄風好不好加油大家好謝謝那我們下一位請黃珊珊委員發言謝謝主席我請監察院代理秘書長麻煩複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14109.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14138.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
蜂蜜我想台灣民眾黨已經提出廢除監察院的相關修憲提案我想你也知道了那在剛剛聽說你在監察院待了40年台灣的憲政體制從五權分立開國以來大概就是現在這個樣子嗎還是已經變了很多了監察院的定位從立憲到今天已經面目全非了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14141.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14162.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
監察院的定位其實是因為修憲他原來是一個治權機關政權機關他是民意代表他在我們世智大法官解釋也認為說國民大會監察院以及立法院都是民意機關也就是說他是所謂的政權機關來監督治權機關的行政單位但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14167.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14192.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我看到您也写了相关监察制度的博士论文你也比较了匈牙利的制度但他们应该是三权分立请问现在台湾的监察院是属于政权机关还是治权机关我们讲学历就好了你认为现在的体制是不是应该它不算是政权机关了 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14193.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14216.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
她是一個監察機關她是一個監察機關所以她是一個沒有名義金儲的行政監督機關是一個行政監督機關所以她就是一個行政機關嘛也就是她已經不再是代表人民行使權利的治權機關了這才是今天為什麼我們要修正這個憲法被我們七四修憲修得不倫不類的現在的體制同樣的剛剛講了五權分立 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14221.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14247.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
獨步全球這是中華民國獨有的制度但是這幾次的修憲已經完全喪失原來五權分立的立場尤其是在監察權監察權本來應該是代表民意機關來監督行政機關可是現在的制度已經是從總統提名國會通過然後他來由行政機關來監督行政機關一個完全不符合所謂的監督制衡的制度你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14248.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14260.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
是監察機關來監督行政機關是但是這個監察機關沒有民意基礎這才是我們今天的爭議也就是說制衡以三權分立來說民意機關制衡行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14262.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14284.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
不會行政機關制衡行政機關同樣的今天的監察委員是總統提名國會通過誰是監察委員的提名權人總統總統轄下的行政院轄下的行政首長行政院長包括所屬的行政機關是你們監督的對象但是同樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14286.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14308.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
當行政機關發生問題的時候總統出錯了監察院有權利彈劾總統嗎現在是立法院立法院好你也沒有權利好那他其他的你都可以彈劾但是他才是你們的算是提名權吧誰會讓上面長官提名的行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14310.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14329.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
受到彈劾大概現在監察委員不太會做出這種事啦所以政權機關已經喪失了現在是治權機關的一部分我認為啦你們現在基本上是沒有辦法打老虎了重點是在於最近我剛剛跟吉凱委員講的一樣我們很難過 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14331.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14355.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
以前的監察院是高風亮節是受到全民擁戴的只要監察院提出相關的彈劾大家都是耳手澄清拍手叫好但是這幾年尤其是今年我們很難過的看到監察院秘書長出事監察委員也出事我看到的是監察院對於自己人反而告訴我們一句我沒有辦法處理因為他們是自律機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14361.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14385.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
他們是自律機關所以我們要移送司法單位當監察行政沒有辦法對自己監察的時候你認為還有多少人民會相信監察院可以打老虎秘書長你們的紀律委員會我今天已經聽了一早上了什麼時候開要不要開會不會開這切入到監察院的公信力啊多久了還要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14386.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14403.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
委員這大概是6月6號那有陳情進來那其實是今天是6月16號是他是有一定的開會是有一定的時間跟進程的然後您代理秘書長要不要快是你們行政可以做決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14405.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14421.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
沒有一定的時間跟進程我們都理解但是這是社會矚目事件即使是在地檢署都有一個重大矚目事件要快點處理啊監察院也一樣啊重大矚目事件要快點處理給社會交代啊第二個現在已經沒有人可以監督你們啦現在誰可以監督監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14425.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14450.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這才是我們今天為什麼要廢除監察院的原因因為沒有人可以監督監察委員沒有人可以監督監察院連監察院自己監督也做不到然後要送到地檢署去我搞了半天地檢署才是監察院的監督機關啊這才是我們今天最大的問題今天中華民國制度出了問題出在這裡民意機關不能對監察委員有任何的要求所以我今天只有一個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14452.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14476.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
監察委員我們今天立法院不提案我們希望監察院你們自己提出你們監察委員的職權行使法你們應該做出對社會的承諾對社會的要求你們有怎麼樣的檢討跟反省至少要訂出監察院的監察委員的行為法這才是讓這件事情能夠止血否則接下來永無擬日立法院要修憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14478.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14497.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
沒有那麼容易 但是監察院要先自律 可以比較容易秘書長 待會去跟副院長報告監察院應該提出自己對自律的一些要求監察院的直宣刑事法不要立法院來提 太丟臉了你們自己提 我們幫你審 讓他通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14499.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14509.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
報告委員我們是有自律規範的自律規範訂出法來給立法院讓大家交代就像我剛剛講的現在沒有人可以監督監察委員這才是問題獨立行使職權保障任期這是非常重要的但是現在的問題是沒有人可以監督監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14520.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14537.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
你有自律規範就讓他成為法律讓他成為可以監督自己的法律將來不用告訴我們說我沒有辦法開我沒有辦法處理我沒有權責所以我不能對他怎麼樣然後我把他移送司法機關這三句話說服不了百姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14541.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14561.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
好嗎你可以研議我希望一個月之內給本席一個回覆至少監察院自己來提你們的自律規範之外包括今天那三件事那幾個監察委員的行為不是只有這個行為啊如果他們有其他的行為我們有什麼樣的自律規範立法院有職權刑事法監察院有沒有好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14563.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14575.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
監察院只有監察法跟監察法實行系統是 所以我希望你們訂出你們的職權行使法我希望你們訂出監察委員的行為法我希望將來類似的事情不會再發生在新聞媒體上 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14577.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14603.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
當一個監督行政機關的御史大夫用了這樣的公器私用的狀況讓他們彈劾的對象有多少人因為開小差偷加班然後被糾正被免職的這些公務員看在眼裡怎麼過得去啊好嗎我希望一個月秘書長給我們一個回覆要不要定職權歧視法要不要定你們的請問法就看你們自己要不要自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14605.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14621.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
报告委员这个职权行使法其实是跟监察法相你们可以研议我只是说你们可以研议一个月之内告诉我们你们要不要这样做你们等到立法院来帮你们定一个法就不好了好吗是可以稍微时间长一点吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14623.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14644.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
一個月兩個月都可以只要你們願意我們希望好啦到現在是六月嘛我希望在這個會期結束前總可以看到吧第二個紀律委員會這些該做的事情給國人交代不要再拖了謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝那下一位我們請蔡易瑜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14665.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14690.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
謝謝主席 我們是不是有請法務部部長跟檢察司副司長好 麻煩部長 副司長委員好好 部長事實上我連續看到從禮拜六的自由時報頭版然後它就放在最下面以及今天自由時報頭版一樣是報了這兩個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14695.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14722.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那都是涉及到的說第三方支付累已經變成是詐騙集團他們的一個洗錢的一個最好的一個工具所以我想要請教部長就是說我們現在法務部針對這些詐騙集團那因為在抓詐騙集團的時候他們都做斷點但是金流才是這個斷點從金流有辦法抓到詐騙集團甚至整案的一個破獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14723.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14736.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以如果第三方支付已經變成了詐騙集團他們在金流他們去做洗錢或者是他們金流那個掩護的話我們法務部對於這樣第三方支付我們有怎樣的一個具體作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14740.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14759.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
跟委員報告第三方支付這部分的一個有關於這邊的處分機關是速發部所以速發部對這個第三方支付還有包括虛擬貨幣這部分第三方支付這部分他們有做一些的管制的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14760.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14784.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
管理的一個規定部長 我跟你說啦 事務大部他們要訂但是我們法務部應該要針對這種新型態的因為第三環事務很明顯的 就是說他們可能做一個假交易或者是他們在做一些真實的交易的時候 以低報高像我們現在看到說 為什麼每個詐騙集團 哇 他們都開著外國進口的名車全部都開著 哇 不是馬沙拉蒂 就是弄很好的車 為什麼要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14786.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14802.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
就是他們的金流要有一個去處嘛那如果是在用現金的話現在很多現金的買賣他必須要有現金的來源這個他們可能也無法無法去處理所以最好處理的就是從地方第三方支付做假買賣做以低報高然後去把他們的金流去把它洗錢洗出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14807.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14816.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
所以法務部事實上從上禮拜六到今天的新聞我看起來是大家有在正視這件事情法務部有在偵辦但是我們的偵辦後續的作為要怎麼擴大偵辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14819.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14842.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那我想這份第三份支付因為被那個詐團當作一個洗錢的一個工具所以說我們在管理這部分那個在詐欺危險防治條例對這部分以及洗錢防治法有做相關的一個規定包括他那個來從事在我們國內都要做一個登記申報或者有處罰的一個規定那個委員關心的就是其實我們本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14843.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14862.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
台高檢是台灣在主政的那我們會督導台高檢對最新最氾濫的這些就像第三資物或虛擬貨幣的這個詐欺這部分網路投資詐欺這部分我們會加強的專案的查緝那這部分的一個成果那我想從去今年一到三月也查獲的詐團774個 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14864.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14890.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那查獲站比去年同期是多出了36.75%是多出來的那那個羈押的查獲的人數也成長了23.13%另外羈押也成長了62.44%那我想這部分我們會再做專的查緝我想這要回應民眾的這些的背景部長因為民眾現在對於詐騙大家很在意所以事實上我今天質詢我也是要跟部長提示啦就比方說 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14891.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14906.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
同樣這一個新聞在禮拜六的時候它是報導了說這一家第三番支付類它收受了博弈賭團或詐騙集團的金流後為該些不法集團洗錢預50億元那既然我們已經掌握了這樣50億元這樣的一個總數那之後這個50億元它的對象到底是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14912.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14940.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個五十億元怎麼來的啊他應該還是可以順和摸瓜再回去到底是說這個五十億元他是怎麼用透過第三方支付去做了哪些不法的交易這個東西我告訴你法務部也要查這個會 這個在個案的話檢察會去查當然會去查嘛因為我們當然不是講個案但是可以看到一個現象一個現象 因為他總數他說他洗了五十億元當然這個跟他最後扣到的金額他扣到的金額大概帳戶三千六 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14941.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14969.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
市價市價是有什麼不動產兩千多所以扣到的金額就少了但是看起來這個中間他們在那裡洗的錢就這麼多所以我要跟法務部長提示啦我們這樣查有一個很大的一個重點就是說我們要把真正詐騙集團的背後的一些首腦要大家揪出來這是一個重點第二個我希望法務部在做這一些查核的時候我們要更多站在被詐騙的被害人的一個立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14970.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14996.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
也就是說這一些我們認為說好它涉及到五十幾億的一個詐騙洗錢那這中間到底哪些是屬於哪一些個案的被害人這會不會因為法務部有時候我們在偵辦的時候當然現在因為詐騙法務部檢察官辦案上也是確實壓力是很大的那案件事實上它整個的一個量是多的但是總是要再多站在被害人立場既然我們可以掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14997.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15020.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
整體的一個金流可以掌握詐騙集團透過第三方支付來做洗錢那這中間有多少不罰所得可以勾結到這個被害人被詐騙的金額那如果勾結起來的話當然就變成說被害人可以來具體來求償或者是被害人可以去針對這些被扣押的所得去主張他們的一個權益這部分我覺得會不會也是要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15024.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15042.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
我們有督導那個抬高檢那這部分那個所得我們會順藤摸瓜去查出那個來源那事實上那個炸雞維抗防治條例對這個也不是只有本案的才有沒收尾他案子如果是認定是炸雞的話我們可以申請法院來沒收那另外我們也啟動那個調和解的一個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15043.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15058.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
其實目前的話落實那個詐欺危害防治條例裡面有關你偵查過審理中這個調解和解的這部分來獲取的一些的效果那現在目前為止統計的金額那個已經緩緩被害人這邊倒搞36億3922萬元到今年第一季累積到這麼多了所以我是覺得法務部事實上這一塊是要繼續加強然後在辦案的過程中事實上應該也要協助被害人去釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15072.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15094.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
他被詐騙的錢跟最後所查獲到或者是中間涉及到其他的洗錢機構那他的錢到底流向跑去哪裡了這個我覺得法務部可以在這一塊我們再加強再用心一下因為很多詐騙集團他們人詐騙事實上我們要看到的除了這些人必須要繩之以法外我們也是要去看到這些被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15095.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15106.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
他可能一輩子的積蓄就這樣被詐騙走了法務部還是要站在說怎麼樣盡可能去協助他們可以做後續的一個追索這樣好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝部長好 謝謝那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15127.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15145.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
好謝謝主席先有請監察院副秘書長王副秘書長麻煩副秘你好王副秘你好我想今天大家都在討論有關於就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15145.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15163.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
要被監察院的还有针对监察委员之前因为可能疑似有来用公务车的这样的一个问题来进行讨论那我刚有听到黄珊珊委员有提示就是监察院要提出监察委员行为法的相关的 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15165.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15183.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這個修法因為現在目前針對監察委員的行為只是規定在一個自律規範裡面但是它並不是一個法的位階我想請教王副秘書長您對於就是提升監察委員的自律規範是法的位階您認為有這個必要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15185.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15211.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
目前就是監察院沒有監察委員行為法可是我們有自律規範其實監察委員自律規範是目前運作上來講都沒有任何摯愛因為監察委員目前只有自律規範還沒有行為法但是我們立法委員我們有行為法你們有去比較過立法委員行為法跟監察院的自律規範最大的不同在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15213.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15240.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
法的位階是不相同的還有內容呢我沒有比較過好 本席要這邊提示妳我在去年當任立法委員的第一個會期我就已經提出了監察委員行為法草案我不能說我有先見之明但是我確實是認為監察委員的相關行為只是透過一個自律規範去約束是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15242.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15263.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
而且我仔細的看過監察委員自律規範他跟立法委員的行為法最大的不同就在於說對於違法失職的監察委員他沒有處罰的效果你們現在如果說是監察委員違反自律規範最嚴重的處罰效果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15264.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15271.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
他可以經過調查然後可以彈劾也可以移送司法機關檢調然後呢 除此之外呢可以罰還嗎如果移送彈劾移送彈劾經過彈劾審查會通過以後那目前的懲戒規範就有九種的所以還要移送彈劾懲戒規範嘛可以停權嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15290.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15296.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
目前是沒有這樣的選項是這就是我為什麼提出監察委員行為法草案的問題因為呢本席認為說目前現在監察委員自律規範裡面所規範的這個相關的法律效果其實是很弱的只是口頭申戒然後遇到事情然後移送法辦這每一個行政官員如果說有違法失職的話其實他依法他就要移送這個刑事的法辦或者是移送公務員懲戒這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15320.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15348.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
一般的這個政府官員公務員都會碰到的都會適用的相關規定可是監察委員他不一樣嘛過去我們認為說他是一個民意機關相當於立法院他都是屬於國會的就國會的性質那麼既然如此立法委員有立法委員行為法那當然監察委員又有監察委員行為法而且我認為這個其實是有必要要提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15348.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15369.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
所以本席在这里也呼应黄珊珊委员基本上我希望监察院能够尽速提出监察委员行为法草案虽然说本席已经提了就是到时候看本会司法法制委员会要不要也要排相关的法案否则的话对于现在监察委员的行为根本没有一个强而有力的约束 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15371.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15394.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
就是跟委員說明一下那監察院跟立法院當然性質是完全不相同那就像監察院職權行使的對象完全不包括中央民意代表就是不包括立法委員這樣子然後另外呢我們也有稍微研究了一下各個憲政機關各個憲政機關比如說像司法院比如說像考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15394.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15414.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
他們其實也都是用自律規範來處理內部委員的這樣子的一個自律的情勢王副秘書長我在這邊我們不用再去針對這個五權的機關他們的各有的職長他們的性質都不盡相同監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15416.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15426.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
过去我们还称之为他不是古代叫称之为御史大夫要非常的清廉然后就要洁身自爱现在的建厂委员是这样吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15427.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15450.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
所以我認為說是有必要要提升他的法衛階好的 那麼這邊是 我這個剛剛這是因為順著黃珊珊委員的提示所以我這邊要提醒你 其實本期早就已經提案了好 那謝謝你 請回那接下來我要請矯正 矯正司對 矯正署 周署長待會如果有必要的話再麻煩鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15456.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15482.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我要請教周署長因為我們今天主要是談的是有關於育政人員管理的一些問題那麼在去年11月的時候曾經有發生一起在高雄女子監獄的女科長疑似因為工作壓力過大而輕生的事情請問這件事情後來矯正署有做後續的調查嗎這位女科長是不是真的是因為工作過勞而輕生 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15484.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15500.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
是 我們有調查他本身是一個基督教徒然後他也有責任感很有責任感那時候剛好高雄地區發生那個淹水那身為總務科長因為水電 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15503.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15525.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
對堅守來講是很重要的水電場景沒有處理好會產生求情不安求情騷動的問題那他可能也給自己的壓力太大了雖然典議長也有指派秘書秘書也是總務出身的來協助他也有指派副典議長去關心他但是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15526.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15554.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
本身我們也是很遺憾她後來雖然她是基督教徒沒有找教友去有點遺憾啦在家裡面是我想這個跟因為剛聽了署長的說明知道說這位女科長是一本她是做總務的總務科科長但是呢基於責任感她可能怕擔心沒有辦法處理好她自己的份內的這工作造成監獄的 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15555.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15571.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
這個受刑人也許這個會有騷動但是呢我覺得從這件事情也可以凸顯出就是在預證管理的部分其實每一個環節都很重要而事實上我們也知道其實從你們今天做的這份報告書裡面你可以看到我們目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15573.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15596.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
這個借戶人力比是偏高而且高很多那麼我們目前矯正機關的核定的容額是60552人但是呢雖然說到目前為止收入人數是59805人可是實際上有許多的矯正機關許多的監獄看守所他們的人數都是超收的 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15597.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15614.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那麼以本席這邊整理的這個相關的這個監所超收的情形就可以知道像桃園監獄、桃園女子監獄、新竹、高雄還有監獄他們的超收比例都是高達兩三成台北看守所的超收比率則是達到36%點多這個其實超收的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15621.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15647.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
這個相關的人員過高這一定也會造成戒護人力的吃緊對不對那你們自己在今天的報告書裡面都有講嘛我們現在的這個戒護人力比看看現在台灣我們是1比11等於說一個戒護人員他要去管理11位受刑人這跟其他的世界的國家相比高到不行耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15648.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15657.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
你看看這個美國是1比4.5日本是1比2.3新加坡1比6.5南海是1比3我們是1比11 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15660.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15682.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
請問您對於這件事情認為要怎麼樣去解決呢是 報告委員我們這幾年來總共也有向人總請徵了900多人那麼將來在八德外醫間跟彰化看守所擴建建工程完畢之後大概預估可以增加3459位的容額 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15685.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15701.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那對於北部中部地區的舒緩絕對有很大的幫助是好您剛剛說你們像人總有提出要增加戒護人力的原額900多人但是實際雖然現在這些900多人總已經給我們的這幾年了但是有補齊嗎沒有嘛你們實際上的缺額還有709所以代表說 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15710.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15731.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
沒有太多的就是你們也招不到適合的人或是也沒有人願意來去調任到那一方面跟委員報告我們要建立智慧監獄用智慧監控的部分來做一些人力更有效率的運作所以這個部分我們在105年已經在 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15740.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15768.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那包括我們的科技安全網也在順利的示範當中好 謝謝署長您剛剛的說明那我想進一步請教就是說所以這實際的缺額709名是矯正機關故意不開缺還是說是因為你剛剛有講到嘛現在要朝向智慧監獄的角度去去辦理去設置相關設備所以也許不需要這麼多人力是因為這個原因嗎不是因為它有題類考試的名額的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15770.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15788.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
提列考試名額所以沒有太多人來報考沒有太多人來報考的原因報考也是會來報考但是我們也有訓練考訓用之後他在辭職或是商調走的也是有我們平均大概4到5% |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15790.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15818.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
因為我有看到你們商調的比例蠻高的會不會也是因為跟介護人力的薪資待遇各方面其實是他的工作的應該說跟待遇比較沒關係因為我們的待遇比一般公務員稍微高一點因為出任的管理員應該有五萬左右但是問題是我們是高壓的環境我們是管人 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15823.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15844.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
因為這是也看到就是有一群基層預診人員他們由此反應他們可能工時25小時但實際上他們可能只能領16個小時加班費那剩下的時間基本上也不能領工時那除了戒護人力之外另外因為在你們的報告書裡面有提到像是叫化人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15845.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15866.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
醫事人力還有心社人力等等我們也看到他的比例非常高以醫事人力來講一位醫生他要照顧303位受刑人你們這個有沒有去跟其他的國家有去做比較在其他國家的監獄裡面的醫事人力還有心社教化人力的比是如此之高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15868.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15894.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們沒有醫事院跟外國做比較但是原則上我們現在102人有加入二代健保鄰近的監所也會有相關的看診進來但是我們醫事院也是在比如在疫情期間確實他的工作量是加重很重那我們原則上也會有缺額我們會招考招考外面有一些A病人員他都很願意來 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15895.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15898.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
檢索這報名考試是領有專業執照的醫生還是說只是一般的護士人員護理師他願意來監獄報名護士因為我們是編制內他們有的是A片人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15913.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15919.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
醫師來講我在民國95年擔任台中健治所所長的時候有招待一位風雲醫院完醫的醫師我有問他你為什麼願意來健治所擔任專任醫師他說他是A10的醫師那我們這邊是公祭內比較有保障現在監獄裡面有幾位醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15938.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15943.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
台中介治所應該有一位專任的有一位台中介治所劉護家醫師因為我印象深刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15953.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15982.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
不管是一位或是零位啦總之就是全台灣這麼多的監獄看守所裡面只有一位編制的醫師然後呢其他最多只有一位嘛那其餘的幾乎就都是以護理師為主所以你們這邊看起來他的工作量很大那麼本席是認為說其實站在就是也是要照顧到受刑人相關的健康權益利益的立場上我認為你們應該有必要要去看看其他國家是怎麼做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15983.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16009.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
要強化醫事人力跟這個新設人力那麼另外就說在教化人力的部分呢因為看到一些新聞媒體報導也有講說這個教化人員基本上都是他是從基層的預證人員然後再升到教化人員但是教化人員的工作量很大但是他卻沒有辦法領到一些相關的津貼對不對你們之前有說要去這個要去制定有關於圍牢 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16010.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16037.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
圍牢的津貼 那現在這部分呢?進度如何?圍牢的津貼 人種可能會矯正署跟海巡署並同處理但是 教化人員他不是介入人員 他不能領圍牢津貼他不會晚上去執勤 他是日勤人員另外跟委員報告 我們的醫事人員不是只有護理師包括藥劑師 醫檢師 這些都是醫事人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16038.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16064.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
好但是本席這邊提醒就是說第一個醫事人力看起來現在的他的照顧比過高1比300多然後另外就是在教化人力的教化人員的部分那麼雖然說他可能不是屬於危險危牢因為他可能晚上不需要去加班但是確實是也是有過勞的問題因為很多教化人員現在說只要看到法院官的判決書上面寫說有教化可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16065.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16093.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那他們呢就是做死做活就是他們非常辛苦了就是做很多的工作平均一個人要輔導上百名或是到上千名的受信人的一些教化工作我覺得這個基本上來說都是對於矯正的管理上面會出現很大的問題那本席是認為說基本上如果人力充裕那麼各個預證人員他的壓力就不會那麼的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16093.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16111.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那压力大当然会造成情绪不好那难免也会发生一些可能就是预证人员对于受刑人可能也会有一些暴力的一些问题今天你们的报告书里面主要是谈的是有关于这个收容人员对于职员施暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16113.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16120.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這個案件書我們看到平均每一年有60起的收容人的暴力攻擊教輔人員的事件本身也認為這個確實是這個比例很高啊對於我們的預證教輔人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16126.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16142.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
很辛苦做這樣子的一份高危險性的工作可是我們也不容忽視的就是說這些年也有發生 陸續也有發生就是預證人員 戒護人員反過來他可能有一些不當的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16143.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16156.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
對於受刑人、收容人等等有出現暴力的狀況甚至可能還有性騷擾等等這些的問題所以你們有沒有統計過戒護人員的行為不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16160.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16178.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
這個部分沒有統計沒有特別去統計這都是比較個案的那跟委員報告 委員有提到那個教誨師他是目前領政車危險津貼將來我們會針對教化人員的危險津貼再把他增企提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16179.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16203.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
因為今天時間有限那本席呢希望就矯正署接下來可以再提供兩份資料給我第一個就是說有關於就是台灣目前現在矯正機關裡面的醫事人力、教化人力還有新設人力跟其他的國家的矯正機關的相比我們要現在你們已經做了介護人力的比嘛那另外但是在醫事人力跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16205.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16222.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
這個其他兩種其他總共三種類型的人力的相比較那我們來看看台灣的嚴重的狀況是如何這是第一份這個資料那麼第二份呢本席希望你們也能夠提供在這些年來要不然就是近十年來就是我們的預證人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16224.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16248.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
反過來對於收容人所實施的這種暴力行為的案子雖然剛剛所長說是個案但是我覺得個案其實也有必要拿出來要讓大家知道而且這個也是可以反過來讓我們去思考就是獄政的管理來如何讓它更合理化然後更妥當 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16250.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16277.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
報告委員 我們在不妨礙到各自的前提下我們來努力處理就是麻煩人可以去識別化 姓名可以去識別化但是呢 比較重要的就是要知道說到底是什麼樣的行為太樣那我認為說這個是可以讓我們的預證更為進步在管理上面可以更為進步是不是可以麻煩 因為資料不是那麼急可以麻煩你們兩個禮拜之內可以提供給我 好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16277.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16285.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
可不可以一個月可以啊 一個月那就麻煩你們一個月之內就把這兩份資料給我好的 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16289.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16319.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢那訓導結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請入送交個別委員會及本會委員您欠其所提書面執行列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面答覆上午會議進行到此下午1點30分繼續開會進行討論事項法案審查與審查法案無關的機關代表不必再列席會議好現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
18169.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
18173.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
好 我們繼續開會 現在進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀條文約一分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
18176.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
18204.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
討論事項第一案繼續並案審查監察院組織法對照現行條文委員徐巧欣等17人提案第三條之一刪除現行條文第一項第一款及第六款原第二款至第五款依序第一至第一款至第四款原第七款第一至第五款第二項手續的第七款修正為第五款其餘同現行條文委員王宏偉等17人提案第三條之一對照委員徐巧欣等提案新增第五款五 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
18204.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
18226.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
主持新聞文化事業生育著住者並將原第五款第一至第六款第二項手續原第五款修正為第六款外其餘同現行條文委員區繳清等提案第三條之二監察委員區超出黨派之外獨立行使職權不受任何干涉十年內有加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者不得為監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
18228.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
18255.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
討論事項第二案委員徐曉清等二十人擬據監察院國家人權委員會組織法第三條除將第二具的第七款修正為第五款外其餘同事現行條文宣讀完畢好 謝謝那各位如果有修正動議或附帶決議的提出就請緊述把書面送交主席台以利應發現場進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
18258.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
18281.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那宣讀如果我們有收到動議的話我們會再補充宣讀那我們先做一次程序因為我們現在的本會委員還不足所以我們先休息等本會委員到 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
18570.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
18574.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那我們繼續開會條文已經宣讀完畢了我們現在進行討論我們進行討論事項第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
18580.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
18606.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那繼續併案審查監察院組織法第3條之一及3條之二條文修正草案那本案在前113年4月29日本屆第一會期司法及法治委員會第18次全體委員會議審查決議報告及詢答完畢另定期進行審查 由於今日繼續併案審查請問是否需要進行大體討論不用 好 那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
18608.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
18632.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我們就直接進入主條審查繼續併案審查建立院組織法第3條之1及3條之2條文修正草案本案是修正草案總計除以2條排序1第3條之1部分有許曉鑫等17人提案王宏威等17人提案請問各位委員有無意見提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
18635.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
18636.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
還有我們今天提案的徐巧欣委員還有羅志強委員本位還有我們監察院今天是副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
18659.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
18686.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那我们这个案子我跟徐晓欣委员其实我们的修法方向一致就是使得未来在监察委员的提名的时候能够排除尽可能的去排除任何政治性的酬庸跟政治性的干预那所以在那个徐晓欣委员跟我的提案里面我们都是针对就是我们第三条之一也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
18688.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
18712.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
監察委員的資格我們都把那個第一項把它刪除也就是承認立法委員一任以上或者是直轄市議員兩任以上身遇著住者那另外我跟他我跟徐小興委員比較不一樣的是在這個我們的第一項第六 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
18715.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
18732.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
那麼我是把這個主持新聞文化事業生育卓著者我把他這邊保留但是呢就是對於所謂的清廉正直富有政治經驗這個部分把它予以刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
18733.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
18748.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
因為第一個就清廉正直我想我們做提名的時候或被提名的時候沒有人會去講自己不清廉不正直這種有點是只是不過是形容詞那另外就是所謂的富有政治經驗的我們予以刪除因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
18750.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
18765.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
常常富有政治經驗呢他的政治包袱就特別特別的多也使得就是在監察院他在行使相關職權的時候那麼他的政治考量就非常多今天早上在我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
18767.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
18771.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
司法法治委員會的詢答裡面其實我們很多委員都提出過去的一些相關的案例事實足以證明我們有些越有政治經驗者他在處理的時候他可能會變成半藍不半綠或者是他針對特殊的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
18791.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
18807.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
才辦那有些案件呢他就高高舉起輕輕放下而使得我們監察院在人民的這個公信力來講是越來越那個下滑反而就是傷害整個的監察院所以在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
18808.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
18823.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
這個第三條之一的部分呢做以上的說明就是我跟徐巧欣委員我們兩個其實大部分是一致的那只是我的這個條文是保留了主持新聞文化事業這個條文好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
18828.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
18842.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
好 謝謝 那請問許委員有要做提案說明好 那我稍微做一下提案說明大部分的內容呢 剛才這個王宏威委員都已經說完了那唯一一個我們差異的地方是在於這個新文化試驗生育著住者 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
18843.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
18864.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那原本的提案的想法是因為呢很多他所謂新聞文化事業那他的這個定義上面比方說可能政治評論員那他也把他納入這個新聞文化事業或者是有一些他根本沒有媒體經驗的人他也可以透過可能可能曾經上過一次的政論節目然後他就變成所謂的新聞文化事業深域著住者喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
18865.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
18882.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
這跟一般民間的想法可能會有非常大的落差這也是為什麼我當初在提案的時候沒有把這一條放進去是直接整個刪除的原因但是呢我認為剛才這個王宏威委員他的這個相關的這個說明呢也是非常有充分的理由的 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
18883.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18901.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
所以在我這裡呢也並沒有去堅持說呢要有這個所謂的刪除主持新聞文化事業生育協助者的這一個條文內容那只是要在這裡提醒就是說未來這個條文呢在所謂的新聞文化事業裡面那到時候在選拔的時候應該要更清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18902.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18930.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
定義他是真的屬於新聞文化事業而不是說好像有上過電視的人他就變成是有相關的這個所謂的聲譽卓著那免得變成是我們要刪除掉這個所謂的有政治相關傾向那反而他又用另外一種形式再一次的附體 以上好 謝謝 那請問就排序一 第三條之一的部分各位委員有沒有意見要提出好 吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18934.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18951.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
不好意思,是直接進入條文還是有大題?我們剛已經到主條了,各位委員說不用大題討論好,不好意思,因為我們剛在另外一個會議上趕來比較晚那我就綜合的一起來發表我的意見首先在 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18954.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18968.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
憲法徵求條文的第七條的第二項裡頭明定了監察委員是總統提名立法委員是同意之所以在立法院所享有的同意權是非常清楚它是規範在憲法裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18969.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18990.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那對於提名權是總統提名所以說這是一個行政權限下的人士的任命權那立法委員是一個同意或不同意的準博那現在我們要把立法院用修法的權限去限定了監察委員的組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18991.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
19012.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
這本身我要再次說我認為這真的有涉及再一次對於憲法所謂的各院之間五院之間平等相為沒有誰比較大平等相為的互相尊重的權利分立原則我認為這是有漢格的所以這是我第一個保留意見的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
19013.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
19031.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那第二個理由就是說這一條第三條在講的是它的組成原本的這幾項裡頭本來有七項裡頭那剛剛徐曉信委員的提案本來是要刪一跟六後來同意跟洪威好像似乎是六可以保留這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
19032.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
19046.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那我認為在看這一條都是恐怕都會去限縮了監察委員組成的多元性會讓監委的人才庫未來恐怕會比較傾向在公務體系的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
19047.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
19073.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
公務體系的人才學者類以及法界看起來會變成它在多元性的部分就會比較局限那我們看到監察院它是有常設委員會的其實就像立法院我們八個委員會一樣委員會有不同的分工跟專業性所以在監察院裡頭它同樣有內政及族群委員會外交國防委員會社福委員會財政經濟委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
19076.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
19097.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
教育文化委員會 交通採購委員會司法預證委員會 外面plus一個國家人權委員會所以說它的組成勢必要有多元的專業因為它本身所受理的人民的請願也好或是機關所移送的也好它本身的範圍是很廣的所以如果說我們把它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
19100.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
19122.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
這個組成比較限縮他的條件的話你會把他的多元跟專業性受了某種程度的影響所以如果刪除了部分的這個相次確實我會擔心未來在總統提名監察委員裡頭就會剩下公務體系的法界的乃至於學者為唯一的選項這對於監委的多元組成跟專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
19128.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
19151.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
更多的專業養成是好的嗎那我們來看看過去的提名的一些過程跟實證我剛剛講的是法理那我們現在來講經驗的法則好了如果以當然第五屆第六屆是小英總統所任命的但我們來看看在馬英九總統那時候任命的第四屆的監委裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
19153.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
19176.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
也大概有,我大概盤了一下,適用於現在第三條第一,三之一的第一款的,就是說有立委條件或只想是兩任以上生育著住者,在馬英九前總統所提名的裡頭,王健宣、黃黃雄、陳建民、洪昭南、趙昌平、陳林匯君委員,其實都是這一類的禁用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
19177.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
19197.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
也就是他有民意代表不管是中央或地方民意代表的養成所以這個部分馬前總統也是他在提名因為有這個條文讓他可以去向民間延攬更多的有實務的人所以在第四屆馬前總統的提名就有六位是適用第一款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
19198.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
19224.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那又譬如說在第六款的部分這個新聞文化雖然兩位委員好像傾向可能這一條可以保留啦但我就一體來論述其實在馬前總統任命第四屆的時候適用於第六款的就是說政治經驗或主持新聞文化事業生育著住者那個時候馬前總統提名的也有螞蟻宮有無風山有流星山三位監委 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
19226.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
19251.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
換言之監察委員的任命不分黨派我們授予總統一個提名的多元性跟專業性這應當是我們期待要去fulfill監委辦案包山包海的樣類他所擁有的專業養成這是不管誰執政我們都授予總統比較多元的禁用的這種range所以現在要去做限縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
19253.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
19280.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那特別是限縮了民意代表這一類好,我是覺得我們自己是立法委員,我是市議員出身包括在座宏威跟志強、艾巧欣委員也是我們有自己否認我們的這個訓練不好嗎好,我覺得政黨有別但是你擁有民意的基礎的這件事情我認為在政治實務對於政府運作還有包括反映明末 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
19281.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
19310.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
人民意見的這個部分我都不認為擔任立委或是市議員有經驗的是多麼罪惡或是不被歡迎的政治訓練啦所以我是覺得是要再多思考一下那當然最後我還是要講回一個我就比較confuse現在我們要修這個法那用修法的方式去面對一個憲法層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
19311.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
19312.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
19314.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
19342.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
五院之間平等相違我還是要去懇請大家去思考當立法委員用我們的立法修法的權限是不是會過當的去影響了其他院紀之間的憲法忠誠義務的行使這個我真的要提醒而我另外也不太了解的是我對面的這個在野黨的委員同時也已經提出了修憲要廢除監察院的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
19343.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
19365.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
那如果說你們是serious要修憲廢監院的話那未來監察院就是over被你們想要這個只是現在又排了一個針對監察委員的組成條件的限縮這有沒有一點邏輯上的衝突你要廢掉他,你同時又去修他的組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
19367.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
19390.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
我覺得這個東西還是需要釐清一下所以我清楚的論述了我對於這一個條文我希望保持原有的條文而且很重要的是平等相為在院際之間彼此對於彼此的權限的尊重是非常重要的今天監察院的代表在這裡也是應當去尊重那個院的他們的意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
19391.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
19418.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
如果說今天監察院同意這樣修就像過去我們可能也處理過司法院的組織法或者是考試院的組織法那是在他們有院版或者是他們也同意立法院的修法的條文那就做到了院紀之間的彼此尊重權力分立沒有被判隔畢竟修法是立法院的權限所以我們面對各院紀之間的組織法我都覺得權力分立的原則我們不能輕忽 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
19418.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
19440.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
那要聆聽監察院的意見然後這件事情我覺得不分黨派我們都希望監察院的這個總統提名的多元跟專業性要被確保當然我們也希望監察委員在履行所有的職責都要對得起國人的期待這當然是基本的所以我做我這樣的意見表述我希望保持原來的條文 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
19445.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
19455.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那我呢針對監察院的這個部分我回應一下那我想我們五權憲法的分立還是要回到監察院他當初被設定的本質上面去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
19457.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
19461.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
而不是說呢我們從現有的就是說現行的這個狀況去討論跟他當初被設立的緣由那可能會有漢格之處那我們可以講一下就是說當時監察院他在產生的時候在1947年憲法實施初期的時候一樣是我們中華民國的憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
19477.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
19497.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
它的原有的設計是五權憲法當中的民意機關的延伸因此當時是從地方的民代間接選出是有一定的民意基礎但是不是用全民普選的方式那我們可以看到在憲刑條文裡面它會變成是說它似乎看起來想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
19498.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
19512.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
這個第三條之一的第一款跟第六款裡面有關甚至經驗這個部分它看起來是要保留了民意的基礎但問題是它已經在1992修憲之後變成是由總統提名由立法院同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
19513.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
19532.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
所以它跟當初1947年的時候憲法原本設計的民意機關的延伸在這個憲刑條文上面它已經沒有相對應的契合關係了所以這也是為什麼我們會去提出所謂的這個費監察院的原因之一那這兩件事情它並不衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
19533.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
19537.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
就是說監察院的廢除他必須要從修憲的路徑去走但是監察院組織法應該要怎麼組成他應該就是從我們的相關的法律上面來修正就可以的所以我認為剛我談到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
19550.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
19557.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
新聞文化事業它只要是真的它是屬於新聞文化事業而不是隨便一個上過節目的人你就說它跟新聞有關能夠負起這個責任就總統提名的時候能夠負起這個相對應的責任由立法院來通過這個我沒有意見但是裡面有所謂的立法委員一任以上或直轄市議員兩任以上生育卓著者 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
19572.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
19598.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
以及有政治經驗者我們都會認為在現行的所謂總統提名立法院同意任命的情況之下總統沒有總統提名的人選那可能在實務上面是完全的有自己的偏好性那這樣子的情況之下如果說總統跟立法院是同一個政黨的那他就會變成監察院完全是可能他產生的委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
19599.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
19623.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
變相是聽命於這個執政黨的意見來行使那它就不太符合我們原本希望它是屬於民意機關的延伸這一個部分嘛那第二個如果總統也就是執政權跟立法權的比例來講是朝小野大的情況那它就會變成總統提名以後立法院在同意任命上面可能會出現很大的難度所以如果我們讓它回歸到 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
19625.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
19641.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
比如說法官檢察官公務人員大學教授專門技術人員然後對人權議題有專門貢獻的這一些的人士他們可能是被有資格去選拔為監察委員的時候他在不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
19642.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
19651.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
總統朝小夜大或是呢總統這個行政權跟立法權都相同的情況之下那都能夠比較直觀的有被選拔出來的機會不管在他的條件難度或相對應監察院我們對他的這樣子的一個設計我覺得都會是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
19661.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
19688.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
好 下一位請陳委員 然後再黃委員好 謝謝主席其實在現在看到的條文對照表裡面呢第三條之二有委員新增喔那他的寫法他說十年內有加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者不得為監察委員那我其實認為大家應該認真討論何謂參加任何政治活動不好意思 我們現在還在質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
19690.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
19707.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
對 還在三條之一好 那我跟主席確認一下現在在王宏威委員的版本本來您是把第六款就是青年正職負有政治經驗這邊先拿掉 對嗎但是剛剛宏威委員意思是可以保留沒有要修改還是要用你現在寫在紙上這個版本去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
19709.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
19735.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我剛才有報告就說這第六款的部分就是把青年正職富有政治經驗或這幾個拿掉文字拿掉OK好那我們就回來談政治經驗好不好謝謝主席談政治經驗這件事情我認為我們要如何定義所謂政治經驗因為就現在每一個公民的生活其實沒有人有哪一天的哪一個時刻可以離開所謂的政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
19736.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
19752.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
只是看待你如何看待政治的定义跟你如何看待政治发生在你生活日常当中的每一个部分那我就请问例如说就以大家最熟悉的立法院为例参加公听会 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
19753.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
19765.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
提供專業意見給予專業協助甚至參與修正條文的時候在很多委員辦公室也會邀請很多民間團體專家學者倡議團體來討論請問像這樣算不算政治經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
19772.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
19793.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
如果我們沒有辦法好好定義何謂政治經驗何謂政治參與如果我們用的是一個非常狹隘的認為你只有做一個政治工作者你的名片上有一個所謂的立法委員或者是你有所謂的議員甚至你參與行政院或是地方政府所有這些活動你有一個公職的身份在身上才叫做政治經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
19795.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
19804.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
我認為這件事情也是值得討論難道除了民意代表之外我雖然沒有向各位做過議員但我要問在各個縣市地方政府也有很多專業的幕僚是積極的給予首長協助在不同的專業上那請問他們的政治經驗如果有一天他累積到夠豐富他確實可以在監委這個位置上給予專業的建議因為監委是要監督各個行政機關如果任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
19822.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
19847.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
疏失有任何的弊案那他过往在行政机关所累积的专业经验难道不足以去附和担任一个监委的业务吗我认为这件事情如果这样拿掉一个是狭隘了政治的定义第二个是也是抹煞了很多基层的公务人员或者是基层的幕僚所给予在专业上累积的可能性以上谢谢好下一位请王委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
19851.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
19862.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
好第一個說明跟回應因為剛才吳斯堯委員說就是我們今天如果修正的話就限縮了總統這個提名監察委員他的權利好像說這個因為從早就說這樣是有違憲之虞那我必須講就是說總統他確實有這個提名監察委員的權利那這也就是為什麼現在我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
19879.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
19897.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
整個的監察院組織法會有第三條之一也就是說總統有提名的權利但是呢相關的資格仍然會有一些的一些基本的條件所以如果國稅要委員講的就是說如果我們在修訂這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
19898.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
19925.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
就是有違憲然後侵害了總統的提名的權利那當時根本就不應該有第三條之一總統愛提名誰就提名誰幹嘛要有這樣的一個條文的限制所以我覺得我們今天談的是修法修法的層面那至於今天也有很多民進黨的委員提出這個質疑說現在在立法院有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
19926.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
19948.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
就是提出要費監察院的一個提案那費監察院他當然一定要進行修憲那大家也知道在修憲呢他的過程並不是說實在修憲的過程事實上比我們修法困難多了這個是一個基本的common sense ABC那所以我們現階段其實為什麼我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
19950.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
19976.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
許曉欣委員或者是我為什麼會提出這樣的一個修法版本我們也是有鑒於就長期以來監察院針對社會的重大的案件那把這些案件呢到監察院去檢舉了之後那很多這些重大案件的弊端那麼監察院根本沒有辦法做處理那可能最近的就是這個陳忠彥的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
19977.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
20001.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
所以也觸發了大家就廣泛的討論我們現在的監察院監察委員裡面是不是有太多太多的政治考量以至於一個陳忠彥的案件監察院其實做了非常完整的調查而且這個調查報告竟然其結果最後是以一個非常壓倒性的這個票數決定是不予彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
20002.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
20023.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那所以大家覺得這已經完全違反我們的社會觀感或者我們的一個最基本的最基本的政治判斷所以這樣的結果是不是我們現在監察院裡面這些監察委員他們背後有太多太多的政治性的考量所以呢其實修憲歸修憲但是修憲它會不會完成老實說我們還並不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
20029.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
20054.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
那在這個過程裡面我們至少可以先用修法的方式使得讓我們監察委員他未來的提名能夠讓政治性的干預把他降到越低越好那另外就是過去確實我們的監察委員有些很多優秀的監察委員也有來自於就是原來做立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
20055.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
20079.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
那但是呢我剛才就講因為這幾年監察院的表現實在是很不及格才讓大家去做質疑那我剛才司要委員講的沒有錯像我們把這個承認立法委員一任以上或者直轄市議員兩任以上那我們自己本身也是議員出身現在擔任立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
20080.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
20100.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
過去大家非常厭惡的是立法委員常常用所謂的自肥條款讓自己有更多的出路但是我覺得今天我們的態度有人就我今天早上講了這根本是自供條款至少對我個人來講我把它拿掉那事實上呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
20101.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
20122.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
就是我完全符合這第一款可是我就覺得我們現在希望把一些政治的因素把它拿掉事實上這一條這一條現在其實有時候我們門心自問你看現在好多的監察院裡面的委員有的甚至有派系上的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
20123.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
20151.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
所以在這樣的狀況之下我們覺得乾脆把它拿掉讓監察院裡面政治的干預性能夠降到最低那至於剛才那個陳美麗委員她提到我老講我不大聽得懂她她到底要講什麼因為就如同你如果覺得富有政治經驗是一個非常非常模糊的概念或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
20153.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
20178.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
不曉得它是什麼樣的定義那現在拿掉不是剛剛好嗎拿掉不是剛剛好 否則按照這個這一個條文定下去青年 我就說青年正職在被提名的時候有人說我不青年我不正職嘛然後又富有政治經驗那這個富有政治經驗 哇這一經驗下來可以說一表三千里了只要你有任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
20181.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
20194.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
參與這個你說公聽會也好如果按照你的定義啊公聽會員好啦研討會也好記者會也好通通是那根本我們不需要有這些什麼下列資格的限制啊全部通通拿掉就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
20196.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
20221.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
所以我覺得這樣按照陳培鈺委員的建議來說的話那麼我這個第六款把青年正職富有政治經驗的字眼把它拿掉我覺得這樣子反而完全符合陳培鈺委員他個人對於這個條文的一個要求以上 謝謝我這邊對這個條文也有意見是不是我在這邊講就可以還是我要 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
20222.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
20238.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
那我就直接在這邊說好就是說我想說我們還是一樣就法論法那第一個我想表達的是當然就是吳世耀委員他所提到的這個會侵害總統在徵求條文第七條第二項的提名權但是我在這邊跟各位報告就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
20239.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
20260.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
如果我們今天修法是說要把它修給副總統來提名那這個才會有違反那個七條二項那今天如果還是由總統提名的話基本上總統的對於這個人事的提名權其實並沒有被侵害這是第一個那第二個就是有關這一次的修法方向希望限縮掉政治的部分希望降低政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
20262.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
20275.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
這個其實是政治條例第七條第五項的規定因為第七條第五項它有明確說明說監察委員他必須超越黨派所以說在修法的時候希望說降低這個政治上面的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
20277.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
20304.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
這個是這次修法我想說有人說這個是違憲這個修法違憲但我在這邊跟各位報告他不是違憲而是他的依據是從第七條第五項而來那大家所擔心或會委員所擔心的他會侵害總統的提名權第七條第二項的部分那我剛剛有報告過就是因為我們今天還是讓總統去提名我們並沒有侵害總統的提名權並不是說把他修給副總統或修給行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
20305.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
20331.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
那我們沒有這麼做那第三個就是說其實法律保留原則就是本來你憲法有規定人民有的權限或誰有的權限他不是不能夠限縮他是必須要由法律來限縮這在我國叫做法律保留原則所以總統譬如我們的賴總統他就曾經力推選舉的排黑條款那我們不會說你在憲法上面人民有參政權啊你憑什麼限縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
20332.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
20349.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
你憑什麼用排外條款來不讓我選這個其實就是一個法律保留原則的概念的展現所以說在這邊來說就總統可以提名的人選我們就監察員的人選用法律保留的方式去限縮這在法治上面是沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
20351.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
20364.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
當然啦就是說我們就個別條文的部分有一些東西是不是不明確法律概念我覺得這個都可以討論這我都覺得非常好確實是現有的條裡面也有一些我覺得這個在法律明確性上面是有一點問題的但是在憲法層次的話我個人認為這個沒有別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
20369.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
20387.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
這個是憲法上面並沒有違憲那再來就是說雖然刪除掉立法委員可以任監委這個東西我們把這個刪掉但是不代表曾經當過立法委員的他不能用其他條款去取得擔任監委的權利他還是有只是說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
20389.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
20415.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
而不能只用我當過立委或當過兩屆民意代表我就可以具有監察委員的資格不是這樣而是說你還是可以由其他條款來去領選最後我提到當然委員講得沒錯權力分立是一個很重要的概念說立法全部應該侵害監察權但我在這邊覺得說就這個部分其實我們是依據憲法來做修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
20416.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
20439.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
這個部分我實在是不覺得有侵害到監察權或總統的人事提名權因為這個其實目前也都是符合法律規定那什麼叫做欠缺權力分立的尊重應該是中選會沒收我們立法院的公投決議文這個才比較是明顯的違反權力分立那以上是我個人的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
20442.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
20469.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
那請問就三條之一的部分 還有沒有委員要提出意見好那就好那就那就保留不好意思你剛說什麼請問各位委員就這個三條之一的部分還有沒有要補充反對喔那大家你們你們有什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
20473.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
20490.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
是 那是否就是說 有委員提議說本條件予以保留我們處理啊 我們三位多數耶 處理就三位多數啊我們要求處理嘛 意識規則我們要求處理主席麻煩秉公處理 剛剛陳發會員已經一直喊說要處理了 謝謝我想說吳宗憲主席就是秉公處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
20498.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
20507.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
過往我們委員會不會這樣你們都表決了欸你們都表決我們的案子還被丟包欸要幫你複習一下嗎因為過往其實很多條文如果說要像這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
20517.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
20531.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
主席不可以這樣啦你真的例子要這樣開嗎那這樣開以後我所有的投資大家都來一律碾壓這樣子也不好對不對 這也不好嘛我只是要告訴你說你們這麼重要的案子你們說的這麼重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
20532.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
20552.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
那照醫事規則就是可以處理的你們要保留可以啦我尊重啦就不要說什麼都那個啦但是你們說這案子多重要整個委員會一排之後往後會一個最認真其他節目都沒有人在那個陳委員其實我也是說這個例子一開因為變成以後都是PK嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
20553.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
20581.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
好啦 但是趙薇你以前好多次都是直接處理 還舉手挑拳咧有嘛 有過嘛 後來就都沒有這樣好啦 互相啦你們從來沒有對我們互相啊有啦但是這個真的爭議很大啦 保留協商啦我想說大家協商好不好好 那三條題的部分我們就拿掉政治性干預 怎麼叫做那個就有沒有說什麼 有很大爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
20582.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
20609.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
好啦 就保留吧如果要再講我們可以再講這個條文通過 在我們本委員會我不能當監委 但吳宗憲可以 他是檢察官你是新聞文化人 所以你也可以然後翁曉琳是教授 所以她也可以殺人不眨眼的這樣子 都保留自己的資格森委員 我真的是為你好 我們就保留吧我真的是為你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
20610.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
20630.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
但是我補講一句你剛剛要把所謂的青年政治我們都同意然後政治經驗要拿掉然後後面新聞工作保留那我只問一個問題如果都跑政治線跑很久的他算不算具有政治經驗的新聞工作者主持新聞文化事業不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
20633.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
20637.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
第三條之一就已保留現在審查排序二增訂第三條之二有委員許曉勳提案請做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
20652.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
20676.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
也謝謝今天這個民進黨的委員剛才這個與保留的這個部分那我想我們大家都是很有誠意在於說對於政治上面的影響力在監察院減少專業能力上面的影響力增加那或者是他不具有政治上面的這個偏見或是他自己的意識形態的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
20677.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
20700.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
第三條之二我們原本是基於這個初衷所以整個條文寫到這個樣子但是在這邊主席有這邊口頭是不是也提出修正動議去刪除掉十年內有加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者不得為監察委員這一段因為確實這可能會就像剛才前面有關於所謂的富有政治經驗這樣子的說法可能會過於廣泛 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
20703.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
20729.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
那如果未來這個監察院能夠從比如說辦法或是繫著自己來進行相關的辦理的話那我覺得是合宜的但是我們在法條上面也當然願意給予我們監察院更多還有這個總統在這個提名人的時候有更多的相關空間那也希望法的明確性能夠被保障那所以就是在監察委員須超出黨派之外獨立行使職權不受任何干涉這個部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
20730.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
20747.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我覺得還是必要的但是呢在後面這一段十年內關於政黨或參與政治活動者不得而監察委員這一段那我們在口頭這邊我們是不是主席我把它做一個刪除那個可是因為就是喬興委員不是本委員會委員所以就是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
20748.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
20764.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
一個就是要三位委員簽名所以他還是要保留的時候去協商把它刪掉還是用保留去協商之後刪掉不然他現在提修正動力可以嗎因為要三個人簽嘛那我們幫忙簽一下你們不是不一樣的公益啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
20765.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
20787.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
那就直接保留沒關係因為我已經表達我的意見嘛我作為提案人的意見我剛剛已經講了認為說這個部分是可以刪除的嘛那大家等一下在逐條討論的時候針對這個部分就可以不用再討論因為作為提案人我也認為說我們可以把它拿掉只是因為我們現在在這裡的人數上面來說我們沒有簽到這個零食其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
20788.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
20815.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
那個卓長進來啦 那你們這樣不是三個人就直接 直接做那我就直接把它因為我跟那個柯委員報告因為我剛剛有提到說就調人的部分我也覺得有欠缺明確性原則就是說所謂的政治活動者這個政治活動是一個不明確的法律概念反正我剛剛也要提這個那也謝謝喬欣委員就這個部分要提那要寫一下好 那他寫的時候我也可以表達一下可以啊 就是我們到時候提你的書面 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
20816.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
20842.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
因為這一條就也是一樣啊就一起併案協商的時候處理但是呢我想這個巧心委員這一條就是他第二項拿掉OK那這個明確性原則而且其實這個第二項保留的話恐怕也有對於這個參政權的憲法保障的問題啦所以現在拿掉是OK但是如果只保留第一條我也講一下我的意見其實這就是憲法第七條第五項所寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
20843.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
20868.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
這就是憲法已經有明定的條文了你需要在法律上去處理呢所以根本不太需要而且它不只在憲法第七條的第五項就是你的條文憲法已經有法律其實不需要第二個其實在監察院的自律規範裡頭也有對於政治參與有明確的更細節的定義所以我基本上是覺得第三條之二是不需要去修啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
20869.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
20887.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
這真的是不是大家如果都同意這真的因為憲法已經有寫了不予修訂的這真的要說服一下他的第一項因為第二項拿掉了第一項就是憲法條文就真的不需要啦我們就在協商的時候就保留第一條剛剛的上面那個項目來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
20890.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
20908.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
這是我們的主張啦看看對面的夥伴們這樣主席我們這個建議怎麼樣因為他第一項就是憲法本文嘛第二項就不用申請應該看徐委員的意思我這個部分沒有意見那為什麼我們會寫這個第三條之二就是因為為了要提醒大家那有關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
20910.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
20930.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
我知道我知道寫在憲法裡面是沒有錯但是當大家在看監察院的組織法裡面的時候會認為說因為不是每一個民眾他都像我們做立法委員一樣我每一個法案去對照但對於一般的民眾他在看整個監察院組織法的時候他會覺得說那監察委員他是不是需要超出黨派所以是額外的一個提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
20931.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
20956.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
但是如果大家認為說已經定在憲法裡面的話那今天大家在整個討論當中也都有這個共識也就是說呢需要超出黨派之外的話那我們這整條不需要新增不如新增其實我也沒有任何意見那重點還是在於我們的這個立法執意精神上面是希望能夠降低政治性然後呢能夠提高更多的這個公務體系的公平性跟中立性以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
20958.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20979.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
那所以喬新委員是認為可以不予增訂嗎好 大家沒有意見嗎就大家如果有共識就排序二增訂第三條之二的部分就不予增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20983.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
21001.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
本案主條均議審查完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 依據審查報告提請院會公決本案須交由黨團協商 院會討論時由吳釗及委員中線促其說明條次引述條項及部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
21003.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
21026.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
接著我們進行討論事項第二案審查居小新等22人離聚監察院國家人權委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案請問是否要進行大體討論不用請問各位委員本案只有審查一條那我們就直接進入主條審查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
21028.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
21043.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
因為這個修正完全是跟組織法連動的因為我們組織法連動現在保留所以這個也就保留 因為它是連動的那個確定我們才知道要把它修成第幾款 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
21043.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
21063.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
好不好我們就全部一樣一起保留送出嗎因為這個有連動所以說請問各位委員就排序一許曉勳等22人提案因為這個與第一案的第三條之一修正有連動那因為該條文保留本條是否就隨同保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
21064.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
21086.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
好 那各位同意本條就予以保留那本案主條已經審查完畢 做以下宣告本案審查完畢 依據審查報告提起院會公決本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳昭吉委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
21088.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
21094.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
本日議程所列事項均已處理完畢 進行到此6月18日星期三上午9時繼續開會 現在休息 謝謝大家 |