| IVOD_ID |
16744 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16744 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-11T08:31:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-11T17:25:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:53:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685622a2f89928e5b661e7e4de50953ef4d8b19dddded0b194ff42999249868cc815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
三、繼續審查委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
四、繼續審查委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
五、繼續審查委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
六、繼續審查委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
七、繼續審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
八、繼續審查委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
九、繼續審查委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十、繼續審查委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十一、繼續審查委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十二、繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十三、繼續審查委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十四、繼續審查委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十五、繼續審查委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十六、繼續審查委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十七、審查委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。
十八、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
十九、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
二十、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
【第十七至第十九案，如經復議則不予審查；第二十案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【逐條討論】
【6月9日及11日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:50 - 17:25:00 |
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現在繼續開會本日會議議程為繼續審查行政院函情審議委員分別擬聚兒童托育服務法草案等16案以及審查委員分別擬聚兒童托育服務法草案兒童托育多元服務法草案等4案現在介紹在場委員及內席官員內席委員有陳昭志委員 |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那列席官員的部分目前依照名單有衛生福利部部長邱太遠部長再過來是衛生福利部政務次長李建德次長他應該等一下會進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1751.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1766.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
好 下一位是衛生福利部社會及家庭署代理署長周道軍代理署長法規會參事 錢信成參事國民健康署服務醫軍 顯認記證保護服務師 黃瑞文科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1780.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1790.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
法務部法治師邱離芬專門委員教育部國民及學前教育署郭芝穎副組長勞動部勞動福祉協會修師楊梅穎專門委員勞動條件及就業平等師李怡萱專門委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1806.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1833.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
勞動關係師許瓊月專員 歡迎下一位是內政部護政師蘇志猛檢任視察警政署防治組政事委秘書國土管理署建築管理組鄭如庭專員好 歡迎校防署預防調查員張福仲副組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1836.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1845.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
金融監督管理委員會保險局陳南軍組長經濟部人事處紀佳嶺專門委員財政部國有財產署吳巧梅副組長負稅署蘇旭毅科長國庫署洪培明科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1862.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1872.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
原住民組委員會社會福利處董建芬副處長歡迎教育文化處黃明田科長還沒到 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1877.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1891.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
行政院人事行政總署給予福利處總署給予福利處陳惠芬專門委員好 歡迎個人資料保護委員會籌備處陳錦怡科長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1899.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1927.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
本次在交互之提案僅進行提案說明不另作詢答現在請新增提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘有號委員有號委員不在下一位范雲委員說明范雲委員不在OK |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1929.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1952.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
請李彥秀委員說明李彥秀委員不在請羅廷偉委員說明羅廷偉委員不在有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在進行討論事項請宣讀本次新增提案條文內容若有修正動議請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1955.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1972.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
兒童托育服務法草案委員游浩等17人委員范雲等17人委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案條文對照表委員范雲等17人提案第47條直轄市縣市主管機關應將前條第二項調查結果以書面在明事實及理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1972.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1992.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
連同調查報告通知行為人及事件所涉兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人並因在名不符調查結果之救濟方法期間及其受理機關予以院版同委員尤浩等17人提案法案名稱兒童托育多元服務法第一章張明同院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1993.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2016.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第一條第一項倒數第二句如下促進其身心健全發展第二項如下幼兒權益及教育依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法與幼兒教育及照顧法之規定辦理第二條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第三條本法用詞定義如下依托育服務以下列方式提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2019.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2039.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
1.居家托育,指兒童尤其三親等內親屬外之人員,於居家環境提供收費之托育服務2.托育機構1.公共托育家園,直轄市縣市主管機關委託非營利性質法人、機構或團體辦理,提供12名以下未滿2歲兒童托育服務之機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2041.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2064.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
2.托嬰中心提供未滿2歲兒童托育服務之機構3.互助式托育因應離島偏遠地區、原住民族地區之特殊性或政府機關構、學校、公司及非政府組織為其員工子女及孫子女之托育需求提供未滿2歲兒童托育服務4.其他經主管機關許可設立之托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2064.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2084.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
二居家托育人員取得直轄市縣市主管機關核發居家托育服務登記證書之人員三居家托育服務中心直轄市縣市主管機關委託由非營利性質法人機構或團體協助辦理居家托育服務登記管理媒合輔導監督檢查及爭議調解事項者 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2087.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2107.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
四 負責人 托育機構或互助式托育依本法及其相關法規登記之名義人其為法人者 指其董事長或理事長五 托育人員 於托育機構及互助式托育提供教育及保育之人員六 主管人員 於托育機構及互助式托育縱理業務之人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2108.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2134.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
七 托育專業人員 第二款 第五款及前款人員八 其他工作人員 負責任托育專業人員外與托育機構服務之人員九 共同居住之人 與居家托育人員共同居住之配偶直系血親 旁系血親 同居人或其他同才共居之人第四條 第一項及第二項如下托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2135.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2156.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
推动及促进儿童托育服务为政府社会家庭托育机构互助式托育及托育专业人员之责第三项与委员陈素月等16人提案同第五条第一项第12346款如下一全国性托育服务政策法规与方案规划订定宣导及研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2158.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2179.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
二、對直轄市縣市政府執行托育服務輔導、協調及監督三、中央托育服務經費分配及補助四、托育服務業務輔導、講註及評鑑之規劃六、全國性托育服務基本資料蒐集調查統計及公佈與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2180.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2194.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第六條第一項第12467款如下一直轄市縣市托育服務政策與方案規劃訂定宣導研究及執行二中央托育服務政策法規及方案執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2195.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2222.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
四直轄市縣市居家托育服務登記管理輔導監督及檢查六直轄市縣市托育服務基本資料蒐集調查統計及公佈七其他直轄市縣市托育服務策劃及督導事項與委員陳素月等16人提案同第七條第一項及第三項與委員陳素月等16人提案第一項及第四項同第二項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2223.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2239.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
前項相關學者專家民間相關機構團體代表不得少於二分之一任意性別不得少於百分之四十負責人不得以非托育團體代表之身份擔任第一項代表團體代表身份有異動者主管機關應重新聘任 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2240.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2265.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第九條 序文默劇前為逗號第一 二五款如下一 提供清潔衛生安全及適宜兒童發展環境二 提供兒童充分營養衛生保健生活照顧與學習遊戲活動及社會發展相關服務五 其他利於兒童發展相關服務予以委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2267.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2291.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第八條第一項後段文字為逗號其補助對象補助條件補助額度及其他相關事項辦法由中央主管機關定之第二項文字帳號及戶名後面為逗號莫具為供擔保或強制執行標的予與委員陳素月等16人提案同第十條與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2292.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2301.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第二章居家托育服務第十一條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第十二條第二項倒數第二句如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2303.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2324.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
應將前項證書懸掛於服務登記處所之足資辨識明顯處予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第13條直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地家庭可支配所得依居家托育服務收托方式定期公告分區托育服務收退費項目及金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2326.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2350.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第十四條居家托育人員不得巧立名目或任意收取前條公告項目金額範圍以外之費用第十五條居家托育人員受托提供托育服務應與送托兒童之父母或監護人訂定托育服務書面契約規定其權利義務關係第十六條至第十八條與委員陳素月等十六人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2352.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2378.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第19條莫具為是需要修正或調整與委員陳素月等16人提案同第三章托育機構第21條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第39條第一項如下離島偏遠地區為因應地理條件限制及兒童生活與照顧服務需求得採社區互助式方式提供兒童托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2379.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2382.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
與委員陳素月等16人提案同第22條至第25條第28條至第29條第32條至37條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第42條 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2394.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2419.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
前段倒數第五句為與李導與委員陳素月等16人提案同第二十七條第一項首二句為直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地家庭可支配所得與委員陳素月等16人提案同第四章互助式托育第四十條第四十一條四十三條與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2420.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2445.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
第44條第二項如下互助式托育應將前項證書懸掛於服務處所許可處所之足資辨識明顯處予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第45條第一項第一句如下直轄市縣市主管機關應審酌轄內物價指數及當地家庭可支配所得予以委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2446.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2472.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第48條第二項及第三項如下互助市托育發現疑似發展持款兒童應通報直轄市縣市主管機關直轄市縣市主管機關應將接獲之資料建立檔案管理並視兒童之需提供轉介適當之服務予與委員陳素月等16人提案同第49條第50條予與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2473.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2490.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第51條末二據為並得經雙方協議是需要修正或調整與委員陳素月等16人提案同第52條互助式托育有損及兒童權益者其父母或監護人得向互助式托育提出異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2491.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2503.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不服戶住室托育之處理時得於知悉處理結果日期三十日內向所在地之直轄市縣市主管機關提出申訴主管機關應進行必要調查並於三十日內將處理情形以書面通知申訴人直轄市縣市主管機關為處理前項申訴事件得組成專案小組進行調查必要時得通知父母或監護人 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2517.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2530.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
及互助式托育派員到場說明第三項與委員陳素月等16人提案同第五章人員資格管理第62條第一項第三及第12款如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2533.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2560.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
3.利用兒童從事有害健康等危害性活動或欺騙行為12.其他對兒童或利用兒童犯罪或不正當行為予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第55條予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第53條序文如下有下列各款情形之一者終身不得擔任托育機構或互助式托育負責人予以委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2561.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2575.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第54條第1項第3款如下3 懲犯家庭暴力罪 經緩起訴處分或有罪判決確定日期5年內與委員陳素月等16人提案同第56條第58條與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2581.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2605.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第57條倒數第三具為並強制轉介其收託兒童予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第61條第二項倒數第三具為並予以調職予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第59條倒數第5具為第56條或前條規定事實予以委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2606.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2615.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
第63條文字與執行業務時後面為逗號予與委員陳素月等16人提案同第60條第三項倒數第三句為 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2618.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2620.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主管機關應主動查證並派員檢查第四項如下第53條第54條第一項第55條第一項第二項及第56條第一項規定不適任資格認定資訊蒐集處理利用查詢及其他相關事項之辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2637.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2657.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
由中央主管機關定之於委員陳素月等16人提案同第64條第一項文字必要時及第三項文字其原因消滅後前面均為逗號於委員陳素月等16人提案同第65條於委員陳素月等16人提案同第66條第二項第二句後面為逗號於委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2665.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2680.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第17條第18條第30條及31條與委員陳素月等16人提案同第20條第一項如下居家托育人員之托育服務有損及兒童權益者兒童之父母或監護人 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2681.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2705.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
得於之夕日起30日內向所在地之直轄市縣市主管機關提出申訴直轄市縣市主管機關應進行必要調查於30日內將處理情形以書面通知申訴人第二項第三據為得組成專案小組進行調查與委員陳素月等16人提案同第38條第一項第五據為 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2706.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2729.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
得予精細處理結果日期三十日內後段首句為主管機關應進行必要調查第二項第三句為得組成專案小組進行調查與委員陳素月等十六人提案同第八十六條第一項末句為受請求機關購英語配合第三項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2733.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2751.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主管機關一前二項規定所取得這資料應善盡應盡善良管理人注意義務確實辦理資訊安全及合作業其保有處理及利用應遵循個人資料保護法規定與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2752.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2770.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第六章罰則第六十九條莫具為並公佈行為人姓名及機構名稱予以維園陳素月等十六人提案同第七十條第一項序文莫具為得案次處罰第二項及第三項如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2771.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2786.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
有前項各款情形之一者直轄市縣市主管機關並應公布場所地址及負責人或行為人姓名第一項負責人或行為人應即通知兒童父母或監護人並協助轉介轉介有困難者直轄市縣市主管機關應予協助與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2794.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2809.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
第七十一条与委员陈素月等十六人提案同第六十七条第二三四款如下二违反第二十二条规定有关收托儿童棉线三违反第二十五条第三项规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2810.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2828.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
規避、妨礙或拒絕主管機關檢查、評鑑或檢查時藏匿兒童4.違反依第25條第4項鎖定辦法有關評鑑結果列入因輔導負評、經輔導負評仍未改善於於委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2829.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2844.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第74條續文後段如下必要時令其停止收託或廢止其設立許可予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第68條第二及第4款如下二違反第43條第二項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2846.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2868.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
規避妨礙或拒絕主管機關檢查或檢查時藏匿兒童4.違反依第50條第二項所定辦法無正當理由為提供涉入影音資料查閱或保存涉入影音資料予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第72條第二款如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2870.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2898.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
二違反第28條規定未與兒童父母或監護人訂定書面契約予以委員陳素月等16人提案同第73條第一款及第二款如下一違反一第39條第5項所定辦法有關使用樓層人員配置及資格收託方式二違反第46條規定未與兒童父母或監護人訂定書面契約予以委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2898.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2901.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第七十六条第一项续文前段莫具为并公布姓名 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2917.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2945.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
第三项及第四项如下拒不配合第一项转介命令者处新台币二万元以上十万元以下罚还直辖市县市主管机关因强制转介其收托儿童第一项限期改善期间居家托育人员不得增加收托儿童违反者处新台币二万元以上十万元以下罚还得按次处罚直辖市县市主管机关因强制转介其收托儿童 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2946.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2968.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
與委員陳素月等十六人提案同第七十七條與委員陳素月等十六人提案同第八十一條第一項續文前段默劇之後文字如下得按次處罰其情節重大或經處罰三次後逗號人為改善者廢止其登記第二款默劇為 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2969.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2982.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
縣市主管機關公告範圍外資費用第二項第二句為自廢止日期與委員陳素月等16人提案同第79條續文前段末句為 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2984.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2999.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
得案次处罚于委员陈素月等16人提案同第80条续文前段末句为得案次处罚后段首句文字后面为逗号于委员陈素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3000.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3028.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
第七十八條第一項序文末句為得案次處罰第二項倒數第三句為經直轄市第三項前段末句為得案次處罰與委員陳素月等十六人提案通第八十二條與委員陳素月等十六人提案通第七章負責第八十三條本法實行前逗號已取得登記者逗號得繼續提供服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3029.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3045.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
第二項前三句為本法實行前逗號以休閉托育人員專業訓練課程領有結業證書者第三項首句為前項人員經費紙登記者逗號與委員陳素月等16人提案同第84條85條87條88條與委員陳素月等16人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3054.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3081.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案法案名稱第一章章明與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第一條為保障兒童接受安全優質的托育服務建構完善的托育服務體系與監督機制確保服務品質促進兒童身心健康發展特制定本法委員羅廷偉等17人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3081.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3090.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
第二句首二字為提升與與願反同委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第二條與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3093.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3111.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第三條本法用詞定義如下一托育服務指以下列方式提供兒童適齡適性之保育照顧服務括弧一居家托育至未滿12歲兒童尤其三親等內親屬以外之人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3112.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3125.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
於居家環境中提供對價之在宅或到宅托育服務第二目及第三目同院版第四款及第五款第二至第十四款同院版第六款至第十八款 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3128.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3154.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第三條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第四條托育服務應以兒童最佳利益為優先政府托育機構相關人員及家庭應促進托育服務之健全發展對離島偏遠地區或因經濟身心文化族群因素需協助之兒童政府應優先提供托育服務機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3155.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3181.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第4條第一項如下托育服務應以兒童之最佳利益為優先考量並應提供兒童優質普及之托育服務第二項及第三項與院版同第4項如下中央主管機關應定期辦理托育資源需求及現況進行調查分析並公布結果具以訂定托育服務政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3181.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3197.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第5條第一項第一四五款如下一全國性托育服務政策法規與方案之規劃訂定執行宣導推動及研究四托育服務輔導獎勵補助及評鑑之規劃執行及公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3201.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3225.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
五 托育服务相关专业人员培育资格训练检定及规划第二项如下前项第六款全国性托育服务基本资料至少应包括全国居家托育服务托育机构之设置许可立案情形收费项目与数额评鉴结果违规事项不利处分及其他相关事项予以院版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3226.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3249.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第6條第一項與院版同第二項如下前項第6款指向是縣市托育服務基本資料至少應包括主管之居家托育服務托育機構之設置許可立案情形收費項目與數額評鑑結果違規事項不利處分及其他相關事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3251.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3275.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第5條及第6條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第7條各級主管機關為整合規劃協調及諮詢托育服務應設置托育服務諮詢會前向諮詢會之成員應包括社政主管機關衛生主管機關勞動主管機關之代表相關學者專家及下列民間團體代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3276.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3301.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
居家托育服务团体托育机构团体儿童服务团体家长团体妇女团体与劳工团体前项学者专家及民间团体代表合计人数不得少于咨询会成员总数二分之一任意性别委员人数不得少于成员总数三分之一托育机构之负责人不得以非托育机构团体代表身份担任第二项之成员 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3302.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3310.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
第二項團體代表身份異動者主管機關應重新聘任之委員羅廷偉等17人提案第7條第1項文字協調後面為頓號審議予以願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3316.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3334.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第8條托育服務應以尊重兒童發展為前提提供適齡適性的保育與照顧服務內容如下一提供安全衛生及適合兒童發展的環境二提供營養健康生活照顧學習及遊戲 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3335.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3363.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
等促进身心发展的服务三 记录儿童生活与成长并依需要转介专业服务四 提供育儿咨询与家庭支持资讯五 其他促进儿童发展的服务前项托育服务有关卫生安全营养生活照顾学习游戏转介及家庭支持之实施原则方式及其他相关事项之准则由中央主管机关定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3363.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3384.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第8條與願反同委員李彥秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第9條及第10條與願反同委員李彥秀等16人提案第2章居家托育服務委員羅廷偉等17人提案第2章居家托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3384.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3401.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案委員羅廷偉等17人提案第11條至第17條第三章張明與院板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第18條與院板同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第18條至第29條與院板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3407.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3421.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
第四項倒數第三句如下托育人員收托兒童照顧比例與與願反同第20條至第25條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第26條 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3423.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3438.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
第二項第二句文字為修正為及予以願版同第二十七條第三項首句為托育機構不得收取中央主管機關一第一項規定之收費予以願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3439.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3457.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
第28條與願板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第29條第三項莫具為由直轄市縣市主管機關定之與與願板同委員李燕秀等16人提案第30條第4項倒數第二具前面為逗號與與願板同 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3458.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3486.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第30條第一項倒數第二句為至少保存60日第二項及第三項與院版同第四項如下兒童執法定代理人與兒童於托育機構期間發現異常傷痕行為改變或其他具體可疑情形失得鑑據相關證明文件向直轄市縣市主管機關申請調閱特定期間之涉入影音記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3487.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3505.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
第五項文字資訊安全管理後面為盾號前項調閱之條件隱私保護合理使用與救濟機制及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第六項與委員郭玉琴等21人提案同 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3508.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3525.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案委員羅廷偉等17人提案第31條語願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第32條第三項第一句及第二句後面均為逗號與語願版同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第32條語願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3528.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3543.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第33條莫具前為句號與與願反同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第33條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第34條至第42條以及第4章張明與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3549.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3564.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第43條第一項及第三項與院版同第二項如下前項原因消滅後經中央主管機關認定仍得依本法規定擔任托育相關人員委員羅廷偉等17人提案第43條至第51條與院版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3570.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3599.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第44條及第45條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第46條第一項第二句後面及第三句如下頓號與居家托育人員共同居住之人疑涉有第36條第4項第二句以及第三句如下縣市主管機關之調查程序頓號前項審議小組組成及其他相關事項之辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3600.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3620.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
與語願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第47條至第50條語願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第51條托育專業人員或工作人員不得提供其托育服務證書或資格證書與他人使用托育機構不得使用未在該機構服務之托育專業人員資格證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3623.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3646.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第52條與院版同委員羅欽偉等17人提案第52條第一項如下托育專業人員每年應完成18小時以上托育專業智能研習每二年所接受研習應包括3小時以上之性別平等課程與與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第53條第二項莫二據為 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3649.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3670.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
因其通知直轄市縣市主管機關予以願版同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第53條第54條予願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第54條第一項守據為托育相關人員對兒童其法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人資料予以願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3672.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3692.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
委員 駱廷偉等17人提案第55條第一項守據為兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人對居家托育人員之托育服務方式第二項守據為兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人對托育機構之托育服務方式予以願版投 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3693.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3708.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第55條與願反同第56條第二項第三句為應善盡管理人注意義務與願反同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第56條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人委員羅廷偉等17人提案第5章罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3717.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3745.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第57條序文莫具為並公布行為人之姓名及其所屬托育機構名稱予以願反同委員羅廷偉等17人提案第57條至第60條予以願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第58條予以願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第59條序文前段莫具為得案次處罰予以願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3747.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3774.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第60條第一款如下1.違反第19條第4項或第20條第5項所定辦法中有關收託人數之規定第8款如下8.未依直轄市縣市主管機關依第45條第3項規定所為命令停止或調整托育相關人員之職務與與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第61條與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3776.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3780.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
委員羅廷偉等式七人提案第六十一條第三款如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3783.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3806.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
3.衛醫第30條第一項規定妥善處理攝錄影音資料至少保存60日或衛醫同條第5項所定辦法中有關查閱條件與方式規定提供攝錄影音資料予與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第62條第二項第二句後面為逗號予與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3806.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3826.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第62條至第68條與願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第63條第一項末二據為處新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還並令其停止收託及立即轉介其收託之兒童令得公佈姓名 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3827.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3855.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
第二项后段如下借其为办理登记者处薪台币二万元以上十万元以下罚还并得公布姓名及令其于一个月内转介其收托之儿童第三项如下有前二项情形之一者直辖市县市主管机关应及通知儿童之法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人并依其意愿协助转介且加强访视辅导第五项莫具为 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3856.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3860.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
縣市主管機關並因強制轉介其收託之兒童與與願板童 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3862.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3885.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第64條首據為托育相關人員對兒童有第36條鎖定之體罰與與願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第65條與願版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第66條續文莫具如下得公佈姓名並廢止其登記與與願版同第67條自第69條與願版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3891.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3918.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第69條第三款手續如下違反第30條第5項所定辦法中有關監視錄影設備設置區域予以願反同委員李燕秀等16人提案第70條第一項第二款如下二托育專業人員未依第52條第一項規定每年完成18小時以上托育專業智能研習予以願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3919.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3945.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
委員羅廷偉等17人提案第70條至第72條與院版同第6章張明及第73條至第78條與院版同委員李燕秀等16人提案第71條與院版同第72條本法所定令限期改善及處罰由直轄市縣市主管機關為之托育機構經直轄市縣市主管機關依本法處處以罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3947.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3955.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
令其不得招收、停办或废止其设立许可者除本法令有规定外应并公布其名称及负责人姓名 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3956.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3978.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
本法规定应公布行为人姓名、托育机构之名称、该机构负责人姓名及场所地址者,其公布期间由中央主管机关定之。托育机构为法人,经直辖市县市主管机关费指其设立许可者,应并通知法院为解散之登记。第六章章名及第73条已愿满。 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3981.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3989.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
委員李燕秀等16人提案第74條手具後面逗號與語願版同第75條至第78條語願版同繼續宣讀修正動議第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3996.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4020.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
第五條第一款及第二款如下一、全國性托育服務政策法規之研擬二、托育服務理念法規之宣導及推廣第三、四、六、七十款與院版第二、三、五、六、七款同第五款如下五、托育服務策劃研究輔導獎勵補助實驗及評鑑之規劃第二項手續如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4026.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4049.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
前项第七款全国性托育服务基本资料第三项如下前项第八款之评估标准照顾期间教育训练访试及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之予以愿版同第十一条第一项倒数第二句为于取得居家托育服务登记证书后 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4050.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4079.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
第三项如下居家托育人员对于前项之管理辅导应与配合第五项如下第一项居家托育人员之登记收托时间人数辅导管理托育服务环境废纸登记收退费规定及第二项之居家托育服务中心之执行业务管理监督检查辅导评鉴及其他应遵行事项之办法由中央主管机关定之于院办同 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4079.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4102.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
第十三條第二項首二具如下直轄市縣市主管機關應每二年審酌轄區內物價指數及當地區家庭可支配所得另於文字退費項目之後增列頓耗金額予與願版同第十五條第一項後段如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4104.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4130.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
送托儿童之法定代理人或实际照顾者应依契约规定缴费予以愿版同第26条直辖市县市主管机关应对托育机构进行管理监督检查直辖市县市主管机关得自行或委托专业机构团体办理托育机构之辅导及评鉴其评鉴报告及结果应公布于机关网站 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4131.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4137.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
托育機構對於直轄市縣市主管機關之管理監督檢查與前項受委託之專業機構團體之輔導及評鑑不得規避妨礙或拒絕檢查時不得藉故藏匿兒童第一項評鑑之類別項目指標對象評鑑人員資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4152.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4170.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
實施方式結果公佈申付申訴扶貧及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之第45條第三項如下托育機構之負責人主管人員機構托育人員或工作人員設有第36條第38條至第40條第一項規定情形之一者 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4175.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4201.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
於第47條規定之調查期間有暫時停聘停職停止契約執行或停止運用關係之必要者審議小組應通知直轄市縣市主管機關令托育機構暫時停止或調整行為人之職務經調查認定為有第36條第38條至第40條第一項規定情形之一者停止職務期間之薪資應與補發與與願反同 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4206.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4225.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
第46条第二项至第4项如下直辖市县市主管机关受理前项疑似违法事件后应组成调查小组进行调查直辖市县市主管机关为审议前项违法事件之调查结果应设审议小组审议小组 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4226.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4246.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
至委员15人至21人任期2年期满的续聘委员均为无几职第二项直辖市县市主管机关之调查程序与前项审议小组织组成资格人数及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关定之予以愿版同 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4247.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4271.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
第47條首句為直轄市縣市主管機關應將前條第二項之調查結果於15日內已書面在明事實及理由予以願反同第48條第二項首句為直轄市縣市主管機關及托育機構對前項為通報之人員予以願反同第49條第4項末二句為 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4276.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4287.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
為心境托育相關人員因先進衛生醫療機構檢查合格後使得聘僱予以願版同第58條前段倒數第二句為 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4289.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4316.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
處負責人或行為人新台幣十萬元以上五十萬元以下罰還第二項如下有前項情形者直轄市縣市主管機關應公佈場所地址及負責人或行為人姓名並通知兒童支法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人予以願版同提案人委員林月琴連署人委員王振旭黃秀芳宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4322.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4324.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好那現在休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5027.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5029.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會繼續宣讀新收修正的動議兩案請好 請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5036.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5058.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
修正動議第十一條第二項修改為直轄市縣市主管機關的自行或居家托育服務中心辦理居家托育人員之登記管理媒合輔導監督、盾號檢查及評鑒令新增第五項第二項評鑒報告之結果應公布於資訊網站其餘同行政院版第十一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5060.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5083.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
新增第18条居家托育人员应与法定代理人或实际照顾儿童之人以书面约定儿童伤病之就医地点发生紧急伤病或事故时应依居家或托育服务紧急伤病救护原则为适当之处置前项居家式托育服务紧急伤病救护原则由直辖市县市主管机关定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5084.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5108.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
居家托育服务中心应辅导居家托育人员落实前项原则并定期实施演练新增第十九条中央主管机关应拟定居家托育服务品质提升及推动计划每二年内应通盘检讨修正至少一次并得适实际需要便更之中央主管机关应将前项居家托育服务品质提升及推动计划公开于网站 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5110.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5125.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
第36條托育機構應公開下列資訊針對第六款簡列行政院版第34條及金額三個字提案委員陳金輝委員陳昭志委員王育民委員宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5132.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5157.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
現在進行兒童托育服務法草案第20案之主條審查以行政院提案條次為準進行討論每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見我們從法案名稱開始討論在討論之前請我們的衛福部提供之前先有做一些溝通的這些資料可以發給所有的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5169.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5172.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
有時候又不一定代表有這種版本,這種版本發下來,所以是可以改,那幹嘛改那個紙張呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5181.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5201.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
由於章次及條次款次將授權議事人員整理現在進行本案法案名稱章名條文審查現在進行行政院版的法案名稱第一章的章名法案名稱的審查請衛福部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5211.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5226.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那都沒有意見嗎好那我們就照行政院版本通過現在進行第一張張明的審查總則 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5241.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5249.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
有沒有意見 沒有 那就照行政院版本通過那現在進行第一條的條文總共20案請衛福部做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5266.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5288.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
第一條的部分大概有幾個稍微跟行政院有幾位委員的版本跟行政院版本比較不一樣的地方有關有幾位委員像林玉清委員版本和核心主任委員邱若驊委員王美惠委員陳樹業油耗委員等等版本他有增加一個第二項也就是兒童的權利依兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5289.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5314.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
及少年福利與權益保障法的規定辦理那這個其實我們在這個我們在原來最早研擬的時候確實有考慮過要增設這樣的文字在行政院審查的時候那行政院的法官會跟我們歷經說這個大概在法律適用上面應該是等於法律適用的當然可以不用寫所以最後送到院裡面送到立法院來的版本我們就沒有增加這一項這是第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5314.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5334.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那第二個是有關於陳培宇委員、林淑芬委員的提案的版本有增加一些文字主要是針對在需要提升公共托育服務能量和支持人民兼顧育兒女工作這邊大概在立法目的上面有增加一些文字那我們的建議是就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5337.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5363.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個托育服務法的立法目的比較偏向於針對各種的托育服務的型態大概我們總體做一個規範和支持那所以我們建議可以在第一條裡面針列支持人民兼顧育兒與工作這樣子的文字那其他大概各委員的大概頂多是有一兩個簡單的文字看行政院班門有些不同那以上建議謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5371.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5387.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我想表達一個我們的版本的重點就是說全世界包括聯合國的人口政策其實兒童托育的政策他們都認為說應該要跟人口政策家庭政策性別平等的政策跟勞動政策其實都環環相扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5387.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5400.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
所以在這裡我們這一個兒童托育服務法其實正本清源我們希望能放進去一個就是開中民意它其實最核心是促進兒童身心健全發展但是還有一個就是要這個性別平等其實也是為了促進性別平等我們希望這個促進性別平等的這一個性別平等四個字可以在第一句裡面就加進去因為這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5413.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5429.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
綁在一起的本來就環環相扣的那另外一個就是大家一起來考慮我覺得大家每個人一起討論要不要再放進一個提升公共托育服務量能這樣的一個宗旨上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5431.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5447.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
大家期不期待這個政府或政策上或是法律上要提升公共托育服務量能然後支持人民兼顧育兒與工作然後才特地制定這個法律這樣子但是我覺得性別平等是不能少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5449.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5478.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那其他委員有沒有意見沒有的話 這邊還是要反擊我的意見就是我認為兒童基全益兒童基上癮福利法跟權益保障法的規定辦理我覺得第二項還是要列入因為過去在幼兆法修正的時候因為也沒列入結果也沒有按照我們兒童全法來執行所以我覺得因為這部法呢基本上事實上是保障0到2歲那幼兆法是保障2到6歲我認為還是要列入以防 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5479.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5497.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
最後後來又發生跟幼照法同樣的問題所以我認為比較堅持是在第二項要去列入這個當然我們都知道應該要遵守可是如果沒有再看這法沒有再回去看兒少全法的時候很容易落掉所以這部分來 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5499.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5516.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
其他委員沒有意見的話請我們的衛福部說回覆這對於淑恆委員還有我這邊的意見針對兩位委員的的詢詢那我們大概做一個說明就是有關是不是要增列性別平等的部分那這個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5518.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5543.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
其實在托育的階段,針對要被托育的這些兒童來講其實在托育的時候,不管性別,大家都一樣的重要至於在托育的托育者,有關於在父母的角色的話其實在目前的兒少權法裡面父母要共同來承擔照顧子女的角色其實在兒少法裡面,確實是有相關的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5544.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5571.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那在托育人員的部分不管是居家托育或者是在做機構式的托育的部分其實在這邊我們並沒有針對性別有特別的不同的處遇所以在性別平等是不是一定要甄列這個部分我們比較我們尊重委員們大概最後討論的結果不是啊你沒有講錯重點我又不是因為你講的那些理由我們講的理由是因為你知道現在所有的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5573.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5593.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
托育的工作或者是家庭照顧的責任都是由女性在承擔的所以我們如果把公共托育或者是居家托育或是把托育服務做得越好它本身就是在促進性別平等了是這樣子所以我沒有特別克責於你說你還要特別做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5594.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5611.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以這個宣示就是說其實這個法律幫婦女主要的家庭照顧責任分擔然後幫婦女解決育兒托兒的問題了促進性別平等了那這樣子女性自然會比較願意婚生嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5612.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5640.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是這樣子而已為什麼你們講到那麼複雜去呢你都想說要繼續做什麼事情所以你都不管他主席我基本上我非常贊成林淑芬委員的意見她所說的也有符合聯合國她現在所說的我們要推動少子女化政策這其實我覺得就是最重要的population study2000年設立來一篇文章還有一個因為裡面最重要四件事情最重要第一個性別平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5641.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5664.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
第二個 工作家庭均衡 第三個 Child Care 第四個就是津貼而且是要採取綜合性政策而且最重要這裡面事實上是一個整個總體性所以基本上我們表示支持還有月月親吻 我覺得這其實是很好開宗明義而且這也符合賴總統社會投資的一個策略還有我們要提供雙就業 雙照顧所以我想我們本部完全支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5665.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5693.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好請問那個政事委員請求發言謝謝主席針對性別平等這部分我看林委員他放的是在為了什麼什麼什麼及性別平等所以他的目標其實是為了透過這部法來促進這樣的一個目標他不是放在說最後要提升性別平等所以我想這個位置非常的重要那我很支持林委員把這個性別平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5694.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5711.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
放在为促进儿童身心健全发展及性别平等这样的一个位置会相对适合我们在透过这一部法案希望能够也真的让性别平等可以更有机会去促成以上好 其他委员有没有意见来 陈清晖委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5711.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5739.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我也想在这边支持一下因为昨天才宣布五月份的出生人数已经又创历史新低本来以为之前是历史新低结果上个月五月也是历史新低是八千多位所以支持人民兼顾育儿女工作我觉得还有性别平等在这边这步伐是重要的尤其是在现在这个非常少子女化的关键时刻谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5743.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5771.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
衛福部這邊如果以淑芬委員講的加性別平等甚至應該講說是不是按照他的寫法這樣我也覺得公共托育服務量能非常的重要希望未來還是公共化所以還要支持人民局兼顧育兒跟工作還有加上我剛剛提的第二項是就按照對對是不是這樣有沒有問題沒有的話我們就照修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5771.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5772.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
請衛福部宣讀修正內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5780.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5807.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
第一項就是依零數分委員版本會促進兒童身心健全發展及性別平等保障兒童接受適齡適性之保育照顧確保兒童托育服務品質提升公共托育服務量能支持人民兼顧育兒與工作並建構完善托育服務體系特制定本法第二項兒童之權益依兒童及少年福利與權益保障法之規定辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5811.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5820.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
抱歉保護可以建議一下剛剛那個我們衛福部的條文我稍微再做一點點確診會更完美就是第二項的部分他寫兒童是對不起來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5826.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5846.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
有關第二項的部分因為我們這個法是兒少全法的特別法我建議說我們第二項寫兒童之權益本法為規定者 逗點一兒全法如果這樣子的話會比較堅固可以表明我們這個是特別法然後等於是本法有規定的要先用本法本法沒有規定的我們再去用兒少全法這樣會不會比較OK一點謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5867.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5884.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
今天法務部有到場嗎你就是法制的不好意思我就是法務部抱歉因為我們有很多的體力其實就像行政院法規會所說其實我們第二項都不用寫說本法未規定的適用其他法律因為那是想當然而然但是如果委員覺得這樣比較明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5886.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5897.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我們也贊成說把第二項列入但是因為我們基於說特別法優先於普通法我們還是會建議說如果是本法未規定等於說本法有規定的我們就用我們的法才不會說到時候又有法規進口的問題對不曉得這樣委員不曉得可不可以接受謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5901.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5929.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我來講一下啦就是說其實立法的體力上加上這個應該不是非常常見但也並不是不可以但是呢我覺得加上這一點有一個好處是說你提醒大家關於兒童的其他的權利是放在哪一部法律讓所以我一直在講法律的可敬性法律的可敬性就是一講啊你講托育服務的就看這裡那其實涉及托育服務的可能還有其他福利事項的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5930.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5955.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那你可以參考哪裡這算是一個提醒的作用我覺得也是蠻好的啦不過這樣子秀我有點擔心我先講就是上次狼屍案的狀況就是今天員工跟他的員長講說有孩子有遭受到這樣的狀況可是呢按照如果兒權法的話照理來講這員工事實上是要被 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5956.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5972.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
而選法53條事實上是會被所謂的裁罰的可是因為如果你這樣寫的話像幼照法因為沒有特別提然後幼照法是因照教師我只要通報我的園長就好了可是這個家駭人本身就是園長的小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5972.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5997.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那這個老師到底要不要處置可是按照兒少權法是要的喔53條所以如果你這樣子的競合關係會不會變成是說如果你這樣講說只要按照幼照法那可是我覺得兒少權法還是保護孩子也因為那樣子才會當時第一時間是沒有辦法保護孩子所以為什麼我特別強調這一塊有它背後的一個原因所在這個應該是這樣子本來就是要但是他們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5998.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6020.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
知道的人就睜眼說笑話嘛還有一種是普通人不知道不知道的話這是一種提醒的作用所以我才說他提醒大家還有另外一個法律在規範這個相關的權力的保障的地方但是這種提醒的作用是可以放進來我覺得沒關係的在立法體力上也並不是不允許也有其他法律這樣子寫過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6022.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6036.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那就代表說我們重視這個兒童權利的保障所以這個托育服務以外的涉及其他的兒童權利的還有這個法在保障這是一個宣示性提醒大家這個也是提高法律的可敬性因為對我們來講我們都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6038.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6055.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
哪一種行為哪一種違法其實是首腦部法律規範的可是很多人的確不知道我們不要用我們的角度應該從人民的角度來思考很多人真的不知道還有哪些法律是相關規定類在保護兒童兒少權利因為你跟兒少可是有時候他沒有想到兒少他想到是兒童所以告訴他們還有這部法律也是很重要的我認為放上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6064.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6073.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
應該各位應該從立法體力上沒有關係因為其他法律也有人這樣寫過不過我還是期待按照我的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6086.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6110.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
抱歉委員抱歉可能委員誤會了我是贊成第二項增列只是加一個文字說本法未規定者我們特別標明本法先施用對對我剛沒有反對委員可能誤會我是說如果委員要提示是可以我們會讓大家更清楚說本法有規定的先用本法不足因為我們本法本來就是兒少全法的特別法所以我們就說加一句特別啦因為講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6111.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6112.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
對對對 就是兒童之權益 本法未規定者 逗點我剛剛的意思是這樣 抱歉可能我剛剛講的不是很清楚謝謝委員 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6127.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6155.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們先照行政院提案跟委員林岳勤等16人跟委員林淑芬等25人提案修正通過沒有啦 行政院提案版本跟我們就不一樣你也照林淑芬委員的提案再加上林岳勤委員的第二項修正通過行政院提案不行喔林岳勤等16人的第二項跟林淑芬 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6156.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6165.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
委員的25人第一項提案修正通過現在進行第二條總共一樣同樣20個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6185.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6206.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那請我們的衛福部說說明第二條的部分各委員的版本除了王育民委員的版本那他有在於對於各主管相關目的事業主管機關應辦理的事項有列在條文內之外那其他各委員的版本文字基本上都相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6207.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6231.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那針對王偉仁的版本的部分我們說明因為他本法主要是規範就是托育一個比較明確的事項所以當時我們是在條文的說明欄已經把這個各目的事業主管機關要去做的事項我們已經在說明欄裡面已經有在去把它列出來所以第二條我們建議是不是可以依照行政院版本的提案通過謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6234.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6258.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
來 陳靜薇委員好 在這邊報告一下因為我的版本下次審查的時候也會進來我是跟王明委員一樣的那同時他現在出席一個活動所以我也跟他表達一致的意見因為兒校權法的第七條也是如此把它列入職責會比較清楚那我看不出有什麼道理為什麼托育是不行把它列入的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6273.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6293.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
各位報告我們當初在研擬的過程中的時候確實有參考過立法架構把相關目的事業主管機關的全責也寫在條文裡面在行政院審查的過程裡面在討論的過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6296.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6319.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那主要的考量就是兒童托育服務法它是一個針對托育事項的一個專法那相關目的事業主管機關的事項它沒有像兒童沒有像兒少法這樣它是一個採綜合式的立法涉及到各部會各種階段的事項都這麼的龐雜所以當時為了考主要是其實是立法技術的簡潔的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6319.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6338.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以在行政院審查的時候建議是不是能夠就把這個相關目的是主管機關的一些事項的部分是把它放到說明欄裡面去那其實大家各部會要負責的事項其實都還是會一致也都會來依照未來通過的法律來操作做以上的說明 謝謝還是這條我可以先保留嗎 王一鳴委員還保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6346.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6366.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
其他委員 先針對第二條還有沒有其他委員的意見抱歉我是想到說第一條的立法說明欄可不可以想就是說我們明確地把它文字化就是說我們補充說明說這個兒童托育服務法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6368.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6380.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
此法為特別法 為兒少全法的特別法這樣子大家才會比較清楚 會不會在托育事項上依本法 其他事項依兒少全法這樣子需不需要這樣寫上去 這樣會更明確其實都說明剛才你的第二項而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6390.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6413.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
在行政院版的那個說明欄裡面其實大概有關在特別法的部分在立法說明欄這個意思是已經有先列進來了所以也是因為在說明欄當初有列的時候所以才會在行政院版條文裡面就第二項部分原則上當時會考慮就法治技術來講就先不把它放進來我們在講立法說明立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6420.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6446.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
放進來立法說說一下啦因為我們就是要標標示它是兒少全法的特別法這個法律的的特殊性啊就是跟我們報告就是行政院版在送進來的時候在那個我們的條文說明欄那對於有關跟托育服務法和兒少全法中間的適用關係是屬於一個特別法的關係在說明欄裡面原來就已經有先續名了第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6447.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6465.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
第二條裡面有 已經有續名了所以也因為有這樣的考量所以在法治技術上面做一個剪輯所以原先要把第二還建議把第二項就可以不增列那當然委員這邊大概討論的結論是我們第二項還是維持這樣一個文字這個部分我們都沒有問題我沒有看到你寫特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6479.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6480.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我不是講適用的問題我是講說你們一直講大家都在講因為法務單位也是講說你們都講說這個法是兒童權法的特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6498.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6513.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
持法為特別法依己在托育的事項上那依本法其他事項依而授權法其實也是類似這樣子當然意思已經很相像了但是我是說他的特別法的法律的屬性要不要放進來說明欄裡面讓他法律的屬性 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6518.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6541.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
特別法優先嘛 因為它有優先性嘛所以要不要把這個優先性給它在立法說明欄講清楚看要怎麼講都可以但是要把它的優先性標示出來我的意思是這樣子你雖然有想出說這托育的依這個法你的說明欄講起來它像一個普通的托育服務法像一個普通法可是我們要強調的是它是這個特別法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6544.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6552.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以它有優先上的適用如果托育相關的法律這一個法是優先的那這個法沒有規範的才兒少權法這樣子特別法優先於普通法是這樣子要把它特別屬性標示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6563.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6565.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
法務部你怎麼改拿出來給我們看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6582.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6597.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那我們是回到第二條嘛第二條剛剛有運營委員還有經貿委員他們有針對第二條希望能夠再擴充把各個事業機關都納進來不過的確他這樣列是非常詳細 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6598.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6614.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我們剛開始在第一條說事實上也有提到說依照這個月刑委員你所提到這個兒童權益等等是有已經有兒童及少年福利權益保障法等等的部分所以似乎這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6615.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6629.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
這個條例本身比較沒有辦法去把這個他們這次所提供的這個相關的內容含括進來所以我是如果可以的話就先暫時保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6630.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6645.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
那第二條大家有沒有什麼意見 因為我也跟證據委員同樣的想法 就是說兒少全法已經有名列各個配合單位了 如果又要在這邊 那以後如果相關配合都要列到這麼多那本來這一條法本來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6646.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6664.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
本來兒童托育服務法就是從兒少權法拉出來針對托育比較關聯性的獨立一個法來做專法來做來做規範所以如果那樣的話那因為今天剛剛陳經理委員現在不在那我們就是先行保留好那我們就接 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6677.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6677.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那是不是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6723.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6724.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那請衛福部做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6742.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6770.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
第三條部分主要是針對用詞定義這個部分的話大多數委員的文字大概都和行政院版相近除了有少數的一些文字稍微著作整理其中主要有比較有不同的部分是在吳佩奕委員的版本裡面有特別提到替代性照顧這樣的一個定義在吳委員版本裡面相關條文也有增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6771.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6794.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個相關的替代性照顧的部分的條文那因為考慮到替代性照顧主要是針對兒童在沒有辦法比較沒有辦法在家內生活需要安置到機構裡面去那在安置程序裡面主要的現在現行相關規定都規定在兒少法裡面所以行政院版的角度比較傾向於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6795.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6808.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
而在這邊如果有涉及到有替代性照顧要加外安置的部分就統一規範在兒少法裡面在這邊就我們不建議特別甄列所以我們會建議是不是能夠照行政院版的條文來做處理以上建議 謝謝好 守分委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6813.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6828.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
抱歉因為我們的版本的第九款跟行政院版也一樣但是有原住民地區還有偏鄉的人還有少數的一些團體來反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6830.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6859.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
就是說互助式托育機構就是為他們的啦離島的偏遠的或是少數非營利的這種屬性的需求但是他們部落之間或是偏鄉的會有人口少子女的話少非常的少然後你其實考慮到說兒童要怎麼照顧可是你要想沒有人願意去那種地區服務真的是師資還有托育人員非常非常的少都不願意去服務了 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6860.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6885.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
在那種情境啊 狀況裡面 他們可能有一個需求這個需求是必須要混零 混零混在一起那除了人力需求不足以外 師資需求不足以外還有一個就是空間 空間的需求不足那他們要托育服務在偏鄉 在原住民地區 在離島甚至連合法的建築物都不可得 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6886.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6893.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那你知道過去的公共空間很多都是蓋一蓋連執照都沒有那你要成為合法的這個托育的場所或是幼教的場所其實都要修繕都要花大筆錢事實上也沒有人要給他們錢他們也無能去修繕在這種狀況裡面找不到合格的場地找不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6908.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6934.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
有合資格的願意到他們那種偏鄉到那種離島到原住民部落非常山上的地區找不到人願意去的他包括人員資格都受限了所以合格的就這麼少的狀況裡面那他們可能有那種混零的需求混零照顧那事實上混零照顧也不是很不行其實很多實驗教育還有過去我們帶孩子的經驗你從經驗法則來看其實的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6939.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6953.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
也並不是不可以在這種狀況裡面我為什麼要講就是第九款的最後一句話提供未滿兩歲的兒童托育服務的機構那這樣子的話會限縮它不能混零 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6955.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6969.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這一句話會獻說他不能混零所以他們的問題就會變得很嚴重那都可能會變成說那他沒有辦法辦那他沒有辦法辦的話家長也沒有辦法顧那大家大概只能 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6971.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6993.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
搬離那個地區或是不生那你趕年輕人離開因為沒有人可以照顧趕年輕人離開有時候甚至在偏鄉有時候甚至在原住民部落失去了年輕人那個部落就要倒了結果就垮了那個村落也要亡了所以在這種狀況裡面要不要考慮刪除未滿兩歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6997.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7010.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
還有第17款工作人員我們有加一個機構的托育人員以外負責人主管人員機構托育服務人員以外因為你們行政院版第15款也是寫機構托育人員所以你們從第17款第15款其實要統整在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7026.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7038.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是這樣子行政院版的第15跟17要給他統整在一起也是需要機構兩個字因為在這裡講的也是因為有主管人員的然後我覺得比較重要就是說未滿2歲這個事情是不是能夠因為我們這個款式就是為他們的然後讓他們有彈性這個可能看盧委員可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7057.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7068.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
喔 你是正天才喔我以為他是盧憲一欸喔喔 這樣子喔 從後面看又是看到頭了抱歉抱歉 好好來等一下所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7081.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7109.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我先請那個主管請回答所以所謂委員的是15跟17要合併嗎因為一個是專業人員一個是非專業人員因為專業人員他還是要受過專業的一些訓練那如果要開放的話可能要到前面去不是 你在講什麼我是在講是機構多餘人員機構多餘人員不是工作人員嗎不是 工作人員很多種 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7111.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7122.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有這個負責任主管人員機構托育人員以外的啊我是只把名詞統一在一起啦17款裡面托育人員以外指的是機構托育人員以外啦他跟他們第15款 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7130.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7145.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
文字統一才不會產生這是什麼東西的意思啦他這裡講的是托育托育人員講的是機構托育人員要更明確化而且名詞要統整在一起啦是這樣子我們先請衛福部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7146.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7150.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那到時候來請陳委員首先非常感謝林淑芬委員的這個指導我想我完全支持尤其是在你剛才所說的在這個離島還有這個原住民地區有的因為這個因為有那個設施設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7162.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7166.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
你不可以用我們平地的方式這第一點第二就是這個你也沒辦法說所以可以採取彈性的那個你剛才說有分離的方式這個方式我覺得應該要支持這樣才有辦法來因地制宜嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7178.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7199.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
另外一個部分就是剛才說的第15和第17那個裡面應該有一些分離的部分但是我現在想要委員清晰一下說香港委員清晰一下說第5條的部分因為你如果完全去刪除那個美滿兩會立法會的這個合約可能我們的一個法條上可能有一些可能會有一些問題啦所以能不能授權執法好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7207.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7210.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
不是就是說你這裡法條寫死了你怎麼去授權執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7213.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7239.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
應該是把你們去調整就大家現在可能沒有辦法立即想到怎麼寫出來也沒關係因為我們還有下一次的討論嘛第二輪討論那能不能就提供未滿兩歲的兒童的托育服務的機構你怎麼樣把它變得有彈性可以有混零的空間才能夠授權你們如果你母法寫死了你怎麼可以執法還可以逾越母法的規範呢所以不是授權執法是母法不能頂死的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7240.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7253.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
你不刪除的話那要怎麼樣寫才是有談刑的你們回家去想啦好 OK 但是正心就是按照那個委員的意見說我們的因地制宜啦這樣啦這個我覺得拜託衛福部去討論因為0到2跟2到6的需求非常的不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7259.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7279.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
按照學理上本來我們講說嬰幼兒幼兒跟兒童本來的需求不同如果署分委員考慮到那個偏鄉的話這邊互助是不是只有偏鄉還有所謂政府機關公營事業如果混雜在一起的話孩子混雜在一起你的設施設備不同如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7280.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7290.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這樣子合在一起還有人數比也不同的話我覺得我有擔心會妨礙到兒童的權益為什麼因為除非你講得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7291.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7318.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
要合在一起可是0到2歲的配比是什麼如果2到6歲的配比是什麼那個考慮到偏鄉我覺得當然可以去做一個比較完整的規定因為要因應偏鄉的可是不要忘記這邊還有一些政府機關跟公營事業如果一旦政府機關我們同意他這樣出了事情的話我非常擔心如果連政府機關辦的這個都沒有辦法去維護兒童權益的話我有點擔心所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7318.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7327.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
如果這樣的話等我們政經財委員講完然後養藥委員講完之後看是不是要沒辦法達公司要先先行保留要要想清楚來好謝謝可是剛剛這 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7336.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7362.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那我先講一下就是第三條的部分那個托育機構這邊是只提供未滿兩歲那我們看到現在的托嬰中心有兩歲以上未滿三歲的兒童那像這樣子的話到底他是要依照兒童托育服務法兒少法或者是這個幼少法的規定來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7364.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7392.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個目前就是有這樣的一個狀況後邊有一個但書是因為我們一直沒有幼兒園沒有專班出來很少私立也沒有提供二到三歲所以這邊後邊法條有個彈性是可以讓他們待到三歲才不會讓孩子一直轉換空間可是在這邊的確會跟後邊有一點點有一些問題這邊直接寫未滿兩歲可是後邊會有一些調子是讓他因為教育部的體制上是要到九月開學才可以收那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7394.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7405.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
兩歲以上的那如果他還沒有的時候他隔年可能就已經到三歲了所以的確後面有些彈性的處理那就看大家要在這邊直接寫死未滿還是說因為後面有些彈性的處理這個我覺得這個也很混亂耶要不要請衛福部先做說明我知道後面有些條次是有彈性空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7420.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7437.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
有關黃委員所提到這個年齡的部分目前其實在原始當年在做幼托分離的時候大概一個基本的立法的政策方向就是0到2用托育的方式來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7439.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7457.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
滿兩歲三到六那原則上是進入托育體系那這個大概是當時的一個立法分工架構但是為了要處理銜接的問題目前在不管是兒少法或者是我們現在的托育服務法裡面大概為了去處理銜接的部分我們大概都允許托育機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7458.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7482.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
可以去設立就是他的如果滿兩歲他可以延拖到未滿三歲就是讓他就用一個例外的方式去處理到可以去能夠跟幼教體系去做銜接這個部分有做那同時教育部的系統這邊也同時最近這幾年一直在擴增有關就是二到三歲的這個叫做這個三歲兩歲專班嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7484.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7510.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
这个部分也一直都在扩充相关量所以我们是两个部会协力一起再把二到三的这一段去把它衔接起来原则上我们是说在托育扶法这一段我们政策方向还是设定在零到二满两岁之后用一个例外的方式可以延拖到三目前这个零二以上的部分在我们后面的条文里面也都已经先有相关的规定以上说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7510.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7523.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
所以看委員針對於第三條因為後邊21條有特別去做調查而且21條也有各種不同的版本等一夜也可以從21條的時候我們再回來看第三條因為看起來第三條可能有要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7523.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7549.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那或者是說等下中場休息的時候要不要再做一些兩邊再做討論來我們請陳昭智委員主席因為那個經貿委員跟這個運民委員他們現在參加一個記者會馬上回來但是他們希望能夠第三條保留那剛剛主席剛好因為意見大家也比較多一點我替他們就是就請求主席才是就是說可以先於保留讓他們有機會發表他們的意見好來鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7552.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7574.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
非常謝謝這個林淑芬委員這個對於我們沿江的部分的一個非常詳細的說明當然我這個條文也有特別針對這個互助式同一機構原住民族地區的那個部分所以為了因應現在這個少子女化 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7575.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7602.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
的一個情況所以這個混零這個部分然後跨越這個教育部的幼兒幼兒級教育照顧法跟這個今天我們要立的新法怎麼樣在這個少子女化然後尤其是在偏鄉原住民族第七部落這樣的一個因應所以剛才林書文 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7603.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7631.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
委員特別提到的那個部分如果我們在這個第三條明定寫的很死那你們有沒有可能再增加第二項這個名詞定義增加第二項但書加一個但書但怎麼樣的時候這個給教育部衛福部衛福部這邊再再因應看怎麼文字會做的會寫的更好以上來那個楊耀文 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7634.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7661.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我當然也是要感謝一下林淑芬委員對離島地區脫離機構的困境所提出的問題我還是要講說法律定了呢就是我看樣子這一條是會保留不過我希望衛福部這邊可以先因為離島就是現在居住的人越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7662.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7686.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那我們假如說各項政府的支持不夠完善恐怕就會越來越多的無人黨剛剛林淑芳委員有講到一個她可能連建物的合法性都很難找到然後要修繕或者要整建 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7688.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7709.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
經費上也有困難那我是不是利用修法的時候請衛福部這邊盤點一下離島原鄉到底有多少地區是地方政府也想做那我們一起來做先把可以可以托嬰托育的 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7713.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7737.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
的地方先建置起來這個很重要因為如果再講一下就是政府的支持不夠無人島就會越來越多那其他的大概其他剛剛我原本也要來講一下就是兩歲到三歲的問題那現在21條已經有明訂了所以我們就這樣子好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7739.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7740.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
王振旭委 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7768.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7795.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
就是光第九條就應該把這個前面這部分呢是用提供兒童托育服務的機構那我們已經在前面有訂立什麼是兒童嗎就12歲以下那如果剛剛我們葉行為所提到的那後面的這些公營事業機關公司等等我們就不宜把這個未滿兩歲要剔除所以我們如果把這個第九款 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7796.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7813.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
做相對的去把重點式的做一些處理的話相信會更符合各位委員還有未來在照顧上的期待那這部分也是就麻煩主管機關這邊如果能夠先這樣調理的話那當然我們會先做保養以後還要再來做確認這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7821.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7837.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這邊再也來釐清一下你的主管人員因為以前托嬰中心稱的是主任那你現在主管人員到底是什麼因為主長主任和一個因為甚至這個人呢中管業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7838.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7863.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
可是他到底要不要有專業 以前是有要求喔拖延中心是有要求要有專業 他要擁有主任資格的 其實可能現在用主管人員這是第一個 另外一個事實上這個負責人也要考慮的是到底是實際負責人還是事實上刑事負責人 以前我們在評鑑或者是在查核拖延中心的時候很常碰到 他基本上不是 不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7865.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7884.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
結果他是實際的執行的負責人可是他不是在掛在牌上的那樣的負責人這也要不要去釐清否則的話多以事實都不太符合所以也請你們做說明還有一個如果剛才以淑芬委員提的那樣和秀芳委員提的甚至剛剛鄭天安養藥委員提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7886.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7909.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
有一幾個在互助式要不要去跟因為畢竟今天事實上原來母法就是0到2歲那如果要在某一個條件上開放的時候那事實上會不會跟幼照法有競合關係那這個就是變成說這一條可能真的要去保留而且這邊要去處理的是如果一旦公司他做這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7910.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7926.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他收0到6歲那出了問題到底這法要去處理還是幼照法處理這就會有我覺得偏鄉有偏鄉他要去處理的那要獨立嗎還是你要放在這邊因為你這邊事實上還有一般私營的公司行號也可以去設的時候這混雜在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7927.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7951.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我還是擔心會影響到兒童權益如果一旦有問題的話如果有特別因應偏鄉的話那也要有些特別的處理否則就是你們要跟教育部去做一些溝通討論還有剛剛秀芳委員提的那如果說你們今天假設後邊又要去有這樣子21條有這樣那要前面要不要開放到某種程度是說要未滿三歲還是因為跟幼照法競合關係你們這邊只能未滿兩歲後邊21條又來講開放一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7955.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7978.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
空間是因為我目前少人去設2到3歲所以就只能這樣因應為了孩子的權益說不要他一直在換地方說0到2歲換一個地方2到3歲沒地方又換一個地方然後3到6歲又到一般有收所以他就變成換三個地方0到2歲在童年中心2到3歲到保母家然後3到6歲又到幼兒園因為幼兒園幾乎不做2到3歲的專班 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7979.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7979.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好像那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8008.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8022.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
我可以說明嗎還是說明等一下我們再請那個我先簡單說明一下我想那個基本原則在零到二我們是處理零到二嘛二到六那邊就是那個幼教法那邊這是第一個這是基本原則可是現在目前就是說委員對於現在目前這個第九款這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8024.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8043.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
這裡面有互助式托育機構裡面 現在有兩個部分一個是偏鄉 偏鄉大家有因地制宜 我們是不是這個部分廉額出力嘛但是你其他 其他公營事業等於這些可能像王志旭委員所說的 我們就廉額廉額 廉額出力啦好不好 原則上是不是就是用這種的這個縮刻 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8047.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8072.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我現在意思就是說托育是因為互助式托育機構我們現在最重要的是要針對這個偏鄉還有我們住民的地區還有楊耀文也有說有一些設施設備我們現在要因地制宜嘛所以我們這個部分我們就要強調它的特殊性但是月勤委員這邊也有談到一個就是說有針對公營事業啦學校等等這些這個部分的話這可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8076.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8087.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這是另外一個category這樣啦所以我意思是說是不是就這邊分成兩堆這樣我就可以有一個解到這個黃正希委員剛剛所說的嘛至於具體看要怎麼處理來我們現在請代理署長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8091.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8106.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我再舉一個例子就說幼照法的執法有一個叫做職場互助這個教保服務實施辦法職場教保服務中心應該要配置什麼樣的人其實他們其實有混零 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8107.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8130.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那職場互助教保中心的人力比現在是用大混零所以他們沒有分班那他們人力比是1比10我覺得月景提出了一個就是說有兩個重點第一個就是說年齡上因為混零會涉及到兒童托育服務法那也可能會涉及到這個幼照法兩邊兩部法律到底是要適用哪一個規範的問題月景剛剛講第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8132.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8149.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
第二個在兩部法律裡面那如果另外一部法律有規範到這個人力比照顧的人力比那要怎麼解決的問題那所以顯然的如果這兩個問題都要思考的話那我們事實上在這個地方這個互助式機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8150.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8165.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為保姆照顧沒有問題保姆可以直接照顧到12歲可是我們這裡講的是互助式機構請大家要記得真的是因為原鄉超級偏僻的還有離島超級人少都沒有人要去的狀況他就是有這個需求他不是我們一般人的狀況那在這種狀況裡面我們需不需要服務他們要設計一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8170.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8196.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
可以是用混凝的但是這個地方人力照顧比也要放進去可能連人力照護比都要入法了這個是我們目前為止整部法都沒有思考到的人力照顧的比例可能就要為他們這種如果要開放了彈性了混凝了那照顧比這個東西或是整個混凝裡面細部再分班 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8196.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8219.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
同一個空間混零但是細部再分班細部分班的時候人力照顧比看能不能就有特殊需求比較小的要多一點同一個空間裡面啊共用人力對對就是可能還在更細緻可能目前我們沒辦法在這裡馬上就有一個答案但是可能要請你們回去思考好 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8222.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8242.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那就麻煩衛福部可是要去突破的是因為即便剛才淑芬委員講的這個職場教保服務中心他還是受制於我們的幼照法所以還是事實上是2到6那現在如果0到2跟2到6合併在那本來分屬在不同兩部法裡面那你怎麼去處理這些事情因為如果聽起來淑芬委員要的是0到6合在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8242.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8264.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
可是本來是分屬兩部法的一個管理那要獨立在外嗎還是怎麼樣因為他的確這部法裡邊就是這個辦法裡邊的確是混零混零事實上是因為幼照法本來二到三是不跟人家混的三到六才可以混的他現在是二到六都可以混可是現在你零到二要混起來可是又分屬在兩部法裡邊可能要去思考的是這而且是兩個部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8268.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8296.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這可能有沒有要獨立在怎麼樣去所以我才說第三條是不是要去保留考慮到偏鄉還是要另外拉出來怎麼做否則我現在說我是不贊成是放在這邊要第九款去談這個東西為什麼因為這第九款有公私跟政府部門而且公營的話我更認為要以孩子權益可是偏鄉有考慮到也以孩子權益為主的時候可能因為還是要他的就學的權益或就託的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8297.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8322.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那去做一些從一些去考量可是在這時候又把公司跟政府部門的混雜在一起的時候那你們要脫鉤可能要去思考到兩部法的那個關係還有兩個部會以後評鑑或者是檢查或者是誰要去管我覺得這也會是一個問題所以我覺得如果這樣的話大家同不同意如果有這麼多的問題等楊耀偉發言完看大家同不同意先不先保留啦來 楊耀偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8324.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8331.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我們互助性托育機構其實它存在很多困難除了剛剛的硬體設備以外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8340.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8356.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你真的要細分到托嬰托育其實我在這邊直接講啦其實根本就不可能啦那0到6他的照顧人力到底要怎麼配置 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8358.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8380.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個都是一個困難我覺得你們在除了立法過程以外就是真正的要去了解離島偏向到底對 其實我說人力造物比就好了他可能一個小離島他本身住的居民就很少所以他需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8383.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8392.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
托嬰托育的人數就更少而國家也不能因為他少所以不去做這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8393.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8413.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那怎麼在困難之中把所需要的人力印尼的部分剛剛講過把所需要的人力配置好讓他 我講白一點啦其實也不用想像得太過完美啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8415.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8431.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
可是就必須要可行然後以兒少最佳的利益為宗旨這樣子去做啦不用建構的好像很這個他事實上有困難啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8433.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8461.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好,來麻煩吳亦華委員你又建構了什麼?中壁樓才好,但是現在的確是如果跨了兩個部會然後跨了兩部法律,它有建合上的管理商會的確是有,但如果很複雜,我看到最後是沒有了到最後答案,進步化的新聞,離島偏鄉、原鄉還是沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8470.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8485.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我特別提一下就是一起討論這個互助式托育機構因為他有提因應離島偏遠地區原住民族地區的特殊性那我要說明一下因為互助式 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8486.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8513.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們原住民地區叫部落互助教保中心他申請的資格就會明定沒有任何公私誘的這些誘教托育機構所以他一定是沒有任何公私誘的這個機構所以他們長期本來就很希望零到六就是混零全部收這是地方的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8514.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8540.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我想這個部分如果說因為我特別是因為聽到剛剛我們政府機關回應說另外處理所以我其實只是想要知道就是另外處理的意思是什麼那但是我要表明就是互助教保這種機構在原住民地區它就是本來就長期我們也可以講啦它本來就是零到六通通一起收啦要不然它要丟到哪裡去謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8544.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8546.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
王振旭委員之後再王一鳴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8547.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8574.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
好謝謝根據剛剛我們在討論有關於這個第九款複製式托育機構事實上我們在第20條有一些相關這方面比較完整的處理模式那張雅琳委員也提一個臨時動議針對於在哪一些情形之下需要用粉零式的托育服務模式來處理我想大家也同時可以參考一下第20條裡面相關的一些條文內容以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8578.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8603.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 那個剛剛提到互助式托育機構的部分我覺得在實務上的確不能去忽略這個在原鄉地區他們傳統以來其實就是用這樣子的一個模式就是說我們在訂定任何的法令的時候也是要看到現實的情況跟尊重它的文化差異跟它的特殊性所以這個部分我覺得它可能很難用你原來的整套的要求去套到 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8608.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8633.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
呃原住民地區我覺得他是執行常會有困難因為他很明顯他那邊不會有專就是訓練有素的這個教保人員就在現場但是你可能可以呃有另外一套要求他們可能呃主動去提供一些訓練上面或什麼就等於是有點因地制宜那一方面滿足需求一方面你又可以是呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8634.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8661.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
有一些专业的概念带进去他在专业在安全上面至少他可以符合我是觉得这一块保有一些的弹性去处理是必要的他没有办法完全比照一般的规则如果是这样子可能就是没有就是他长不出来他永远长不出来因为他条件就是完全的不一样因为过去在莫拉克风灾那时候在民间团体服务山上那边很山上那边 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8663.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8689.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
就是出現這個問題你要找他們有需求但是你要找專業的教保人員沒有啊就是就是不會有人這樣子所以這一塊我覺得可以再多討論了因為今天也有我們原名的委員在現場我有兩位對然後我覺得這一塊的確我我的意見是應該要考量到他的特殊性但怎麼樣去兼顧到在照顧上面給他一些必要的知識跟安全這個可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8692.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8720.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
你們在政策上要去討論的那另外一個我想就叫的就是事實上在我的版本裡面我有提到公共化居家托育這樣的概念就是說在政府裡面如果是由主管機關縣市主管機關你們去聘的這一類這個將來你們要叫什麼會不會有這一種就比較弱勢的孩子你們是用保姆你是直接用寄養的系統還是你會還是有可能有一些是你政府指定他是合格的保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8721.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8733.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是他是在提供相關的服務會不會有這一塊這個是有民間團體提出來所以我也提出來就叫這個衛福部這樣以上來請衛福部回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8736.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8749.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
針對王委員所提到的部分目前確實在行政院的版本裡面並沒有特別去設計這樣的一個公共式的,這樣的一個型態的托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8752.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8774.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那事實上這也跟我們報告說我們現在在兒童扶育那個對不起在兒少法的目前修正的一個的策略上面那基本上我們大概對於如果他將來沒有辦法在家家內安置的部分他需要做家外在需要安置到家外的部分原則上我們還是傾向於盡可能是從親屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8776.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8799.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
計家然後現在會有一些叫做團體家庭然後到機構大概用這樣的方式去做一個安置的順序那在最不得已的狀態之下會有一些立法上面還是會有一個其他的安置機構大概用這樣的方式那在其他的部分的話我們大概在立法處理上這樣會從一個比較嚴格或者是一個必要性的上面去做一個比較周密的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8800.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8803.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我們第三條就先行保留因為有很多東西要處理 請衛福部去把因為兩部法各自去拘束著不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8821.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8837.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
如果一開始你這事實上就已經本來就是0到2歲又要去滿足到6歲可能要再去做一些你們自己內部去做討論那我們接下來進行第4條總共20個委員提案的版本還有1條修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8840.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8858.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那請衛福部先做說明有關第四條的部分那各委員的其中大概跟行政版本有比較不同的地方大概有幾處那一個是傳評委員的版本那看林初峰委員的版本羅廷瑋委員的幾位委員的版本那大概都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8860.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8875.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
參照幼照法的默見教育部主管的幼照法第七條第三項條文有增訂一個要提供兒童優質普及平價及競變性的托育服務有增列這樣子的文字那第二點那也是有關陳平委員林淑君委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8875.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8896.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
的部分有要求是這個在第四條要去增訂一項要和中央主管機關要辦理托育需求調查跟公開結果那另外何委員、王玉明委員那有在提案要增列居家托育人員、托育人員、主管人員的一個人力規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8897.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8919.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那這邊大概都是針對於資源的的增訂的規劃的部分都有相關建議的文字那其他各位委員的版本大體上在行政委員的大概就是文字上面有一些用法上面稍微有一些出入的地方那衛福部這邊大概做了說明那我們大概參考了各位委員的版本那我們建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8920.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8934.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
在這個有關在托育的部分目前政府確實是在就兒童托育的部分在做相關的努力所以我們建議可以在第四條的第三項前面可以去甄列政府應提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8935.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8952.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
兒童優質普及評價及競變性之托育服務把各位委員的一些意見拿進來然後第二個那就是有關在資源相關的調查的部分那我們也會這個參考林委員和陳委員的版本那我們會建議是不是在第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8954.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8968.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
再列一個第四項就是中央主管機關應定期辦理托育需求調查那公開其統計及分析的結果據以訂定托育服務政策以上那個鄭天才委員之後陳培鈺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8987.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9016.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
有关这个第4条第4条行政案版本的第三项是写政府对处于离岛偏远地区或因经济身心文化与族群而有协助需求之儿童应优先提供适当托育服务的机会我是这个参考这个社会救助法里面所以我在我的第4条的第三项 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9017.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9038.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
是把它明确化了把明确化就是政府对于低收入户中低收入户特殊精益家庭身心障碍原住民离岛及偏远地区之儿童应优先提供适当托育服务的机会请大家能够这个支持以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9039.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9055.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好 请沈蔓玉委员发言之后吴丽华委员好 谢谢主席我刚很开心听到卫福部这边说我们希望有定期调查并且把这个调查的统计跟分析结果作为政策很重要的参考那相关文字我们都还可以再讨论 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9055.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9074.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
主要我們當時提這個版本就是希望參照耳哨全法第13條不管是死亡原因回溯或者是相關身心發展社會參與相關統計資料我們認為有統計資料才能作為決策很重要的參考我想等一下文字的部分我們來討論應該就沒有太大的問題以上謝謝來吳立華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9079.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9092.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好 謝謝主席在第4條的部分我這邊有做兩個地方的一個文字修訂第一個部分我們的條文是有寫到政府對處於離島偏遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9096.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9105.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
或因經濟身心文化族群而有協助需求但是我特別希望就是要寫原住民地區為什麼因為雖然離島偏鄉 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9110.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9125.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
也是屬於原住民地區但是他沒有涵蓋到都會區的原住民孩子所以這個部分我希望特別就是還是要把原住民族地區寫上去另外一個部分就是增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9126.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9155.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
增订一段文字就是写说中央主管机关应定期办理托育资源及需求调查公开其统计及分析之结果并据以定定托育服务政策那为什么要这样说因为我们在那时候在讨论那个原住民主健康法的时候也是很强调这一点就是很多对原住民所提供的一些分析资料有时候我们很担心都是凭感觉 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9156.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9180.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以我覺得我們還是必須要有一定的一個資源與需求的調查公開的統計跟分析結果我覺得應該要根據這個事實來去規劃托育政策不要只是說憑一般的感覺那這樣子就會失準那最後也沒有辦法解決到真正的原住民地區的一個需求跟問題以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9183.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9209.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我對於這個衛福部看起來好像把我們的版本放進來看起來我覺得有疑慮因為我們開宗明義宣誓說政府要提供兒童優質普及平價及競變性的托育服務這個是所有全部的兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9211.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9239.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
但是你提了建議的修正的版本你現在是跟我們跟離島偏鄉連在一起看起來很像是就是否離島和偏遠地區而已怎麼可以這樣子所以我還是堅持如果你們願意放進來要苛責於政府要提供的托育服務就是優質的普及的平價的競變性的那是否全部的所以要照我們的版本第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9240.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9250.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
第二個我們也是樂意看到說他們把我們最後一項放進來但是我覺得有一個我突然想到的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9251.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9271.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
政府所有過去的政策和資源上從來沒有看到居家托育這一塊那我們是不是說中央主管機關應該定期辦理托育需求調查公開其統計及分析之結果並具以訂定托育政策之後再加一句以及居家托育人力的育成與規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9274.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9303.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
對我們希望中央政府你上次跟我們講說一半一半嘛機構式的托育一半另外一半是居家式托育那我們對於居家托育人力的老化甚至是無法銜接那但是台灣人來普遍來講其實也還算是蠻喜歡居家托育的所以在這種狀況裡面我們希望政府要看重而且要鼓勵而且當然要納管的更仔細 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9303.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9325.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以把我剛剛講最後一項加上最後一句以及居家托育人力的育成與規劃這樣放進去那我剛剛講的提供兒童優質普及平價及精密等於是啦都照林淑芬所提的這個版本這樣才可以否則他這個給我們的修正東西有詐有詐啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9326.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9333.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
我請教一下衛福部你們修正的這個版本因為剛剛林淑芬委員是她提說另外還要獨立居家托育調查你們事實上有提到定期辦理托育需求調查那在這部法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9354.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9381.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
講到托育兩個字應該要包含就是機構室跟居家室全部都包含在裡面所以不會只是就是選擇所以我是建議因為法條也不以非常的反覆就是說可能是的確如果有涵蓋到這樣的一個面向的話那特別有一些比較細的剛剛淑芬有點提醒的譬如說你現在居家的部分可能是做得比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9381.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9401.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
是不是可以透過那個附帶決議或者是在立法的說明裡面就是說我們的托育需求調查其實是涵蓋機構是他涵蓋全部但是他們是重機構輕人輕居家你講的那個或許可以有附帶決議希望他可以增加沒有沒有不能附帶決議我們講這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9404.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9414.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
因為從業人口的老化居家托育的人力從業人口老化那你的怎麼育成你的規劃是什麼也要一併放進來這個定期檢討就放在說明或什麼吧不行啦就放在這裡這樣有點怪不會不會因為他們眾機構輕居家托育這很像政策描述不是法條的描述 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9429.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9431.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你再想想你的那個方向我認同但是寫進法條我現在講最後一項就是說因為他定期調查需求那定期盤點資源那你把你定期的調查和盤點的公開給大家看然後來調整作為政策調整的這個依據那我是講說那你們的居家人力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9453.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9472.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個因為人力老化嘛 從業人員越來越少嘛所以你的居家服務室的這個托育的這個人力的培育和這個計劃你應該也要納進來是因為他們不納進來啦因為他們以前所有政策都全部只有機構式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9474.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9486.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
放進來啦 不能緊啦 要包含啦 或是包含啦 應包含這個東西社會委員講完好 那請衛福部針對社會委員的意見做回覆非常感謝主席 還有各位委員的提示我先報告一下 我要來接觸這個處長其實我對這個是做我的感應門委員你放心 這個絕對不會有詐你放心 你剛才說的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9499.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9506.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們不太想啦而且我跟你說我過去在台中做社會局長我也知道那個委員過去也非常支持嘛我也知道居家現在那個脫離聯盟那邊他也有說保母確實有年齡高齡化的問題所以這個問題我一定來處理來改觀委員你放心這個部分我們絕對不會是機構跟這個居家一定都要均衡發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9525.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9551.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
沒有啦 這個我們不是講放不放心啦就是條文裡面就是說你在盤點資源和需求的時候要納入這個居家這個托育人力的育成和規劃啦好啊 可以啊或者是就是在第一句裡面講說辦理托育資源及需求調查那我們在後面講應包含這個居家托育人力的育成和規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9553.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9566.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這樣子然後公開統計及分析結果並具以訂定托育服務政策就是你的資源盤點和需求調查還要納入這個居家托育人力的預承和規劃這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9569.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9586.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
來 微服部 你的文字怎麼調整再說啦但是 你說叫我們放心那顯然你對於優質普及 平價 即便性的土地服務你們是願意的嘛那如果是願意的話你開宗免疫就宣誓就放在第一項裡面不需要放在 跟離島偏鄉放在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9587.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9612.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以衛福部這邊 因為剛剛委員的意見中準來看的話就是第一個是要把兒童優質普及平價及避免性的恢復放在前面開通明明就講 第一項第二個事實上是吳立華委員提的要加原住民地區這邊你這邊有沒有意見還有能不能做到 還有一個事實上是增加的確居托人員的就是在家裡居托人員的話事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9613.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9623.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
年齡逐漸大然後呢若沒有配套的話的確那個育成如果OK的話那民眾又比較期待事實上是在居托室的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9625.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9648.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
服務來提供那你這有沒有要去加進去可以嗎還是整體的人員的能夠提升因為現在像機構也有一點事讓人員都是補足到做缺工那要放在剛剛玉敏委員是說要放在後邊的去做布袋決議所以你們的意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9649.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9659.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這樣啦 我想就是按照剛剛委員的一個建議我想應該都可以來配合 剛剛玉銘委員剛剛所說的這個部分還是就放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9663.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9688.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
OK好我可以針對這一點也稍微說明一下我的意見就是說其實剛剛大家都很希望把它的範圍涵括得更好可是有時候我們也了解如果在這個法條裡面寫得太繁複的話所以能不能用立法說明來補充這一塊這樣的話可不可以同時來兼顧大家的需要OK好可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9689.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9707.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
就是精神上按照剛剛委員所說但是我們看看要沒有啦我們文字最後的最終版本到時候拿出來看再說啦先不要急著說在法條裡面或是說明欄裡面因為我會怕啦委員你吃是不用的那我們第四條就有保留鎮委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9724.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9748.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
因為剛才衛福部並沒有做對我的提案的條文做回應因為現在行政院版是寫著或因經濟、身心、文化與族群而有協助需求之兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9749.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9775.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
事实上未来在执行上你们也会没有那么具体因经济身心文化与族群就不是很具体所以我才会去这个参考这个社会救助法包括其他的相关的法律就很明确的就是说对于低收入户中低收入户特殊敬意家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9776.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9788.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
身心障碍原住民離島及偏野地區就會比較具體在在執行上這個地方政府在執行上會比較具體所以這個部分也請這個衛福部那個採納以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9793.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9804.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
謝謝鄭委員的提示那其實在原來立法的方向上面其實政府版跟委員基本上是方向利益是一樣的那我們為什麼當初選擇用在對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9807.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9825.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
大概是用兩個方式來處理一個是地點就是離島跟偏遠地區那第二個呢就是他的個人的情況那我們是寫的比較這個保留一點彈性包括了經濟、身心、文化、族群然後有需求的兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9826.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9847.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那這個這樣的一個比較有彈性的時候那他某種情況之下他在操作的時候是當然像委員所鄭委員所提到的包括不管是這個低收中低收特進等等這一類的他本來就應該都可以都是可以讓進來的沒有問題那實務上操作有時候看到就是剛好在邊緣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9848.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9864.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那因為我們如果是在條文上就全部都寫得很明確的就是低收中低收的時候在邊緣的時候有時候在操作會有一點點困難所以我們當時在考慮在這一類狀況的時候我們大概文字上是要保留一點點彈性其實當初的用意是希望說能夠在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9867.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9878.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
只要是這個托育的量能足夠的情況之下能夠保留一定程度的彈性主要是這一點但是維園的這個方向我們是完全支持的以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9897.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9915.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那我們這一條第四條就還是還是才保留好來我們接下來進行第五條第五條有20個委員提案然後一個修正動議那請衛福部做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9918.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9930.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
第五條的部分各委員除了跟行政院版本相同的地方之外比較有不一樣的設計的第一點是有關王玉民委員、邱鶴華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9937.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9963.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
等的提案裡面有提案要甄列就是要協助托育人員組織及家長組織的成立好那這個部分的話我們是建議在這邊的話有關他的這個有關因為人民團體的部分他其實是這個人民有解釋的自由其實這個部分方向讓我們都完全的尊重那但是這個是不是要去組織還是有這個相關的不管是這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9964.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9990.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
家長或者是托育人員他自己的意願的部分那我們這個現行的法規就已經可以處理所以當初沒有特意的去把它分列進來那第二點是有關何信聰委員王玉明委員等等所提列的增加了托育人員托育人員及主管人員的人力之規劃那這個部分我們是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9992.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10016.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個我們剛才在前面的第4條裡面那因為在人力的部分大概有做一些相關的處理我們是建議是不是可以從併同第4條都要保留的條文在文字整理之後可以併在第4條裡面做一併的處理那大概以上大概主要有不太一樣的設計的地方以上說明好請問那個各位委員有沒有意見第5條 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10027.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10052.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
沒有的話第五條來 請孫恩維有 我們的版本其實就是說第五條的第一項的第一款這比較參考兒少全法 幼兆法 明定中央主管機關的事項然後裡面有第一款就是加入推廣和實驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10055.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10072.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
推广和实验或许未来会有实验性的这种服务出现我们难以想象因为世界也变化很快那再来就是第二项第二项里面前项第六款全国性托育服务基本资料至少应包含全国居家托育服务 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10072.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10096.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那因為我們整部法跟行政院版不一樣的地方包括說我們希望客者中央要不要定出一個這個統一的制定出各地區的收費這個收費標準然後說我們這裡面納入了托育機構服務的收費項目和數額這樣的一個東西這個是這個是一樣的跟你們的不同在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10105.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10111.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
沒有我們是家服務抱歉是家服務托育機構的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10116.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10117.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
其他委員還有王一鳴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10146.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10171.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那個請教一下我的版本裡面其實剛剛有特別提到就是說協助托育人員組織及家長組織之成立那這個剛剛你們是說這個是市社內政部不在你們這邊但是托育人員你們是整個托育的主管機關就是說如果他們有遇到一些在過程上面需要協助的我不曉得放進來你們有覺得很不妥嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10175.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10184.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
要不然就是放進來應該是如果真的有遇到這樣他們要組織相關的組織你作為主管機關提供協助我覺得是合理另外一個在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10185.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10204.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你們有特別提到是收費項目與數額但是我的版本有增加退費項目與基準那可能你們要解釋一下在你們的版本裡面呢托育機構之收費項目與數額評鑑結果不立處分及其他相關事項那我的有多增加退費項目與基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10206.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10215.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那你的版本有涵盖退费项目与基准吗是在哪一个部分如果没有我建议应该要纳入以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10216.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10238.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那我這邊請衛福部這邊等會也回覆因為本來我的修正動議有去列因為過去一直以來你們把一般安置跟緊急安置跟收出養的安置都安置在保母家我覺得實為不妥因為那個強度不太一樣所以我在這邊去列了第八款是一兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第56條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10240.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10266.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
各款情形得運用適當的居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的時候並建立相關評估標準照顧期間教育訓練訪視等機制以防凱恩再度的發生所以我覺得這個事實上是勢必你們要去處理問題否則現在很多縣市還是把一般安置和景安都安置在保母家然後又用一般的這樣的居托的管理的一個強度很低的去做管理的時候勢必就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10266.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10294.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
有可能未來會再發生所以我覺得你們要去做考慮本來就應該而不是任由各縣市政府這樣子做所以我覺得法規明定而不是用一個原則來規管那基本上各縣市不會這樣子按照你的原則來做那第九項是希望能夠協助托育人員組織因為托育人員常常他們如果沒有一些協會或公會的組織的話沒有辦法保障他們的權益還有家長組織的成立那最後大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10295.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10319.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
因為這樣子的增加第二項因為前項我剛講第八款的評估標準照顧期間教育訓練方式跟其他應准形式上應該要主管機關定制不是用原則來解決問題那個位階非常的低就沒有辦法保障兒童權益所以這八跟九甚至增加第二項我請剛剛運民委員提的還有我這邊提的請你們做回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10333.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10352.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
針對林委員這邊剛才所垂詢在針對修正動力要所增列的第八款和第九款的部分第九款其實這個部分我們原來的設想就是它主要是涉及到人民的結社權這個東西主管機關是不是要去協助因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10355.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10373.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
還是要是前提是既然是協助的角色還是這些團體或者相關的人員他主動要有去結社的意願那大概主管機關在後面才有去參與的角色那但是在這邊第五條原來在寫的就是說這個是主管機關一定要辦的事項那所以這個繫住於 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10376.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10400.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
團體或者是個別的民眾他有沒有要去結社之後然後主管機關才要介入的部分所以當時再加上現在有相關人團或者是工會等等相關的法令已經有在的時候所以我們就沒有特別沒有刻意去把這個條文納進來那第八款的部分有關在使運用這個拘托人員去做相關的評估的部分的話這個部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10401.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10415.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這個因為現在兒少法同時也在做進行相關的研修那所以如同剛才跟各位報告的那未來如果說他在這個兒童做家外安置的時候他是要運用到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10416.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10443.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
如果運用到這個居家托育人員或者是其他的安置處所的話那個不是原來在兒少法裡面所明定的安置處所的時候那這個將來在相關的評估跟處理的部分我們現在原來的立法構想是在兒少法裡面去做比較詳細的規範所以我們會建議這個部分是不是有可能可以容我們就是併到兒少法裡面做一併的處理那以上的建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10446.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10461.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我先針對你這個 因為像這個推服專法當初就已經討論大概三年的時間 兒少權法也在已經也是討論大概也差不將近三年的時間 那現在因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10464.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10475.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
凱凱你這個才送進來本來去年5月20日之前我們就希望是能夠送進來就拖了一年多的時間那現在兒少全法我相信也不會這麼快可是這段期間還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10477.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10504.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
幼兒安置在保母家可是你的強度這麼低那我認為先行還是放在這邊因為至少這個托育服務專法現在已經現在在討論那如果說這個會期通過的話至少我們可以保障到孩子的權益而不是等到因為我們也不知道你兒少全法什麼時候會出來就像這邊也有跟兒少全法競合關係像49條那還是會先以這個先走因為這個還是比較符合兒權公約的一個概念所在所以我們認為說要 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10506.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10517.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
用到你要放在耳哨全法再去做處理而且現在用原則的話強度不夠強的話對耳哨的權益事實上實質受到很大的影響好那那個培育委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10522.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10549.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
好謝謝主席我其實想要附和剛剛主席說的啦主要是因為其實我們當時在修這個法的時候我相信大部分的人其實想到就是一般家庭的小孩那但是確實如同月琴主席剛剛說的在這段期間我們其實看到數字還是在節節上升那上一次在質詢的時候我們也有拜託衛福部在這件事情上要趕快有些動作那既然這個法有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10550.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10579.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
在這兩次的會議當中有機會通過我認為我們先行把這個放進去應該沒有問題那兒少全法後續修法的時候因為我們這邊已經放進來了後續兒少全法修法我認為寫起來應該就不會有漢格的問題所以我認為還是要拜託衛福部做考量那也許等一下再請衛福部回應那至於剛淑芬委員說的關於那個托育人員必須有相關協助讓他們有相關的組織為了他們增盟那其實在我的版本我是寫在第40條所以如果等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10580.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10606.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
如果有相关的讨论可以进行的话我们也希望也许一并放进来或者是放在别的条文如果卫福部也觉得可以的话我们也很希望可以看到相关专业的组织协助居托人员或者是保姆他们相关的增能这件事情其实非常非常的重要因为孩子们的状况其实相对是复杂的主要是来自于外在社会环境的变动那如果我们在增能这件事情上卫福部有更积极的角色我认为对于 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10607.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10613.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
看起來好像是直接服務於這些大人,但所有大人的增能,最後都會投射在對孩子的服務身上。以上,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10637.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10641.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那所以我們現在還是 那要上洗手間的 我們的政府部門也是這樣請自便 麻煩那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10663.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10668.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
衛福部這邊針對於我剛才還有培育委員的那你們做回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10674.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10695.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
謝謝兩位委員的提醒確實這個在有關運用居家托育人員做家外安置的部分這個在現在的社會觀點社會觀照的部分確實有一定的急迫性只是我們當初在想說為什麼沒有刻意放進來主要是考慮到說因為它主要是這個在運用的時候它是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10696.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10718.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
總體跟在做家外安置的時候是有比較高的連動性為了將來在做家外安置的時候在法規適用跟在參考上面比較能夠一致性的考慮所以當時沒有特別考慮說我們會建議是說這個部分是不是擺在耳哨權法裡面他在管理上比較周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10719.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10744.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那當然如果說這個最後委員們在考慮說有這個有時間上的急迫性的話那這個最後討論結果我們當然還是我們當然都尊重那第二個就是有關在這個托育人員組織跟家長組織的部分那這個部分的話其實主管機關在來這邊做相關的跟人員的互動跟協助其實我們來做其實也都還 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10745.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10767.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
本來就會有一定程度的互動和協作那在這個如果說在組織的成立的部分的話那如果是針對是已經這一類的不管是家長的家長或者是工作人員之間已經有考慮要去成立相關的組織那我們就這個原則上我們大概也都尊重最後委員會審議的結果以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10768.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10783.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好 我個人還是不同意因為這邊就是管保母的那在這邊把保母管理的時候去做分級我覺得某一類的保母或者是說要照顧這類兒童的時候你到時候在兒少全法加外安置的時候你可以去針對加外安置有一些條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10784.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10809.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
可是這邊還是管保姆過去就是一直法律不清楚才會讓我們的很多縣市政府都用這種方法來安置而上中央也沒有配套只是訂一些原則而且是111年才訂那這中間不知道有多少孩子因為這樣子而喪命所以我覺得還是要去考慮所以我認為還是要訂在這邊來把保姆的管理的強度放在這個托育服務專法裡面來做管理所以我比較堅持是這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10811.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10824.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
因為我就不再允許讓孩子有因為這樣子照顧不當受虐或者是喪失生命所以這一步如果是沒有辦法我們就先行保留我不知道其他的委員那就保留還有我要告訴衛福部這部分我非常就是我非常堅持因為這事實上是維護孩子的權益不能再讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10841.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10860.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我覺得中央不去訂任何法規然後最後又講地方說都沒有按照這樣做我這次也問你們現在各縣市到底現在還有多少是用警安也安置在保母家和一般安置然後有時候早上社福中心就把孩子丟到一個保母家什麼很多事情都沒有交代然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10860.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10883.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我覺得相信保母也壓力很大還有一個事實上他過去沒照顧說我都不太知道孩子的狀況也沒有一個人來跟我說明然後就接了這樣孩子如果發生意外的話還要保母來承擔甚至如果這個孩子事實上是全天候都事實上是保母在照顧這個保母如果狀況不OK的話就孩子可能會受到很大的傷害所以我對這部分我比較堅持所以我們就先行保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10890.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10893.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那第6條我們去接下來好第6條那第6條有20個委員提案有20案來請衛福部做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10900.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10922.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
第六條是規範直轄市縣市政府的執掌大概跟行政院版的委員各個各位委員的版本和行政院的版本大概有比較不一樣的內容有比較不一樣的地方第一點是有關王育民委員在設計上面有增列一個有關親子教育的規劃跟辦理針對這一點我們這個是考慮到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10927.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10945.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這個因為本法是針對這個托育的部分的定定的一個管理的專法那主要的規範的對象還是以這個托育的人員和托育的機構為管理的核心那在親子教育的部分那如果是未來在實施的操作還是以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10946.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10964.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
兒童他的本身的法定代理人或者實際照顧兒童之人來做主要的規範的對象的話我們會建議這個部分是不是可以因為在兒校權法已經有相關的規定那另外教育部也已經有家庭教育法相關的規定我們建議是不是有可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10964.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10987.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
回到這兩個已經現行的法律來做一個相關的處理那第二點是有關在吳佩儀委員在建議有提案要增訂直轄市縣市在這個零脫的部分的規劃要增列零脫的規劃執行輔導監督那零脫目前在行政上 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10988.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11014.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
食物的执行管理的部分那其实就是在居家服务里面的一个投与服务的形态的一种那已经可以在我们现行的条文里面其实他和现行条文第一款基本上是大概已经可以纳进去所以是不是我需要单独单列一款的部分可能就看看委员这边讨论的结果那其他的委员各委员的版本大概都是文字的部分和 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11015.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11020.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
行政委員的委員大概在事項上面或是敘寫的方式有一些稍微有一些調整以上說明陳昭志委謝謝主席這一個第六條我對一條本身內容沒有特別的意見但是其中在權責的部分有一件事情我要想請教衛福部一個態度問題就是目前有呈現一個一國多治的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11039.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11043.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
因為直轄縣市政府是第一線負責去監督檢查跟開罰的人但是現在根據兒少法的規定有些地方政府他在進行開罰的時候沒有依照勤節輕重次數等等去訂定裁罰的基準表通常都是用最低的裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11058.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11083.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那從來沒有進行過真正的加重處罰那只有少數譬如說台北市台中市因為他陸續有那個議員的監督要求下他去訂定了這個裁罰的基準表而且對於累犯累犯他有進行所謂的加重處分所以我在想說在這個部分權責的部分我想請教衛福部對於這樣的現象是不是應該要求各地方政府就他自己至少要訂一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11085.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11100.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
標準有一個一致的標準那當然由你們來監督或是去了解他設定這樣的標準的可行性合法性就是不要一國多治就是大家的處罰都是不一樣的讓他自己至少有個標準去依循這是全責的部分跟陳委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11104.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11124.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那這個在裁罰的處理上面理論上裁罰的基準是由裁罰的主管機關來定那所以這個現在在托育專法裡面現在的裁罰主管機關會直轄市縣市政府所以如同剛才委員所提到的那有些縣市直轄市縣市政府他已經自己定有裁罰基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11124.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11151.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那我們會持續的來督促各自家市縣市政府就他們的主管法規如果跟社會福利的部分去訂定相關的裁罰基準這個部分我們在托育服務法的部分我們現在也有在做相關的準備在立法通過之後我們會針對各縣市在訂這樣裁罰基準的時候是不是由中央先去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11152.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11166.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
有關在裁罰處理的一個一般性的原則把這樣的一個原則我們去把它處理出來讓地方政府在做裁罰去定基準的時候有一個更一致性的參考這個部分我們在立法完成之後我們會來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11167.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11190.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
更新跟委員做報告這樣的態度是更好的就是說中央政府如果有一套標準讓他們地方去一群就至少現在要有東西有標準可以去進行這所謂卡因為現在看到的是就是都不一致嘛好那如果說衛福部的態度是這樣那我們在應該不需要在就是原則上在這樣跑不需要在立法說明哪些地方做這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11191.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11199.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
處理嗎我們可以信任你們是往這個方向做嗎規劃的時候就已經規劃進來我們規劃進來嗎對在法律通過之後我們會來做研理那今天就是這個態度就是要清楚謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11212.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11238.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
針對於這個第六條吳佩奕委員他有提到希望增加一個第七款就是剛剛講到的臨時托育服務的部分這部分我非常認同因為臨托對很多雙性家庭或者是在照顧孩子的時候突然有一個臨時狀況他很需要臨托那這部分大家也非常的努力希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11239.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11252.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
讓這些臨時托育的這個需求如何透過好的方式來安排所以我非常支持把這個關於飛舞人在第七款這邊來增加臨時托育的相關的規劃執行輔導跟監督機檢查以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11257.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11273.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
陳佩玉委好我其實也想要附和佩玉委員的提案所以我的版本沒有寫但我猜想有一個困境應該是這樣就是如果我們看到這個原來的版本沒有寫到臨時托育可能很多的人不會想到原來臨時托育也歸這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11275.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11301.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以如同卫福部刚讲的我们完全明白可是那是因为我们现在在专业立法会议上讨论所以如果配一加这一条没有影响原来的法例的话我还是建议可以加入那我认为所有相关执行的地方政府或者是后续所有人要引用这个法条的时候会更清楚的知道临时托育这件事情也是这一次修法的时候大家要考虑到的重点谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11307.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11321.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這邊我也沒有列入不過我覺得在地方政府或中央是不是有一個你們事實上是沒有考慮進去的你講保姆要管理你講托育機構要管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11321.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11347.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
可是有讀漏一個要不要評鑑居家托育服務中心因為管保姆的是居家托育服務中心如果品質稱之不齊他怎麼可能把保姆管理好可是這邊整個不管是地方政府或中央都沒有列入居家托育服務中心你的規管是什麼那他又事實上是去管保姆的人保姆O不OK管好不好事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11348.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11364.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
至為關鍵的是居家托育服務中心可是這裡邊通通都沒有去提到居家托育服務中心的評鑑是要放中央還放地方可是托嬰中心有喔可是居家托育服務中心事實上是管保母的反而又在不管是第五條第六條都沒有列入那是不是一併請我們的衛福部做說明包含我們剛才提到配育委員的零托這一塊以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11377.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11401.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那這個如同剛才大概報告的就是我們現在在行政版的條文的第一款裡面我們原來在寫的時候就是總體托育政策的方案規劃訂定宣導研究執行所以他就包含了不管是機構式托育或者是居家托育那當然也會包含零托他可以包含在這個整個大的架構底下 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11402.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11423.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以如果說是不是要單獨抽出來單列一款的部分我覺得這個部分大家可以討論看看因為這個畢竟是相對是一個比較新的比較新大家會有需求的一個托育型態是不是需要單獨抽拉出來這個部分我覺得大家可以討論那林委員剛才所提到針對居家托育服務中心的部分是不是要進行評鑑 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11424.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11443.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那也跟委員做一個報告那因為在這次托育服務法裡面我們大概已經比較把居家托育服務中心做了一個比較明確的法制上的定位他未來就是受執行室縣市機關的委託來執行相關的工作所以他的性質上已經是等於類似是在行使公權力 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11444.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11465.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
所以主管機關對他不一定需要做評鑑而是直接對他是行政上直接他是等於他的所屬要做更嚴密的監督所以在立法結構上面我們是做這樣的一個設想所以我們大概這次就沒有在條文裡面單獨還去對居家托育中心再去做評鑑的動作因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11467.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11479.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
評鑑大概還是有年度別還是有可能多少年評鑑一次的他的密度可能比直接的行政監督可能不見得會比這個來得高所以這個我們大概原來當時在做這樣的一個想法以上的報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11482.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11492.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好謝謝那個你剛剛特別提到那個居托中心將來會變成是執行你公權力的一環我覺得這樣子這樣的轉變的方向其實是好的因為你們現在之前可能就是在定位上沒有那麼的明確那你如果把他納尾是你們的一環的確他可能不需要是評鑑這件事而是你的行政監督指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11508.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11527.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
可能就是他必须配合你更多的事项完成你在法令上面或者是他进一步再去监督管理保姆的这样的一个任务那这个在你们如果是往这个方向基本上我是可以同意就是往这样的方向我觉得等于是你的手脚更多了就是说你们在 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11529.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11541.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
對所有全國裡面他們變成是你們的分身對對對變你們的分身而且去執行該有的那個督導管理這個的確是那另外一個剛提到零拖的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11542.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11551.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
因為之前我在台中市也擔任副市長那林坡這一塊的確是現在實務上有需求我想剛剛證據委員特別講實務上有需求但是其實整體地方政府的量能不夠當然你們中央的支持也不夠我坦白講你們沒有在林坡這一塊過去是你們比較忽略你們並沒有很用力的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11567.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11573.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
支持地方或者是希望地方大力去擴展這一塊但是你可以看到現在陸陸續續長出來的這些零託服務是因著家長的需求然後他慢慢去發展出來所以第一個是全國各地方政府他的步調是不一的就是說有的可能推得比較快點比較多推得比較早那有的可能我猜可能還有還沒有的縣市政府因為像 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11595.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11604.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
嘉義縣比較偏鄉像這種比較偏鄉或許他零坡可能都還沒有長出來那這一塊比較重要的除了立法之外我是覺得你們在政策面你們可能要有一個比較好的推動的政策方向都會區的需求會很高然後在 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11616.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11636.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
在比較偏鄉的地方他需要可能是另外一種形式不是都會去推展的形式所以這部分的零拖我覺得的確如果納進來應該也是可以考慮但是我看到不是立法的問題反而是你們現在光是在政策在鼓勵在推行上面量能其實都還差蠻遠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11640.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11658.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
可不可以為服務部進一步做說明我不是不贊成的確過去居家拖曳服務中心它的公權力不足的時候很難執行可是可不可以告訴我們強度到什麼強度因為很多縣市政府他找不到受託機構的時候大概就勉強說只要有人來接就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11658.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11685.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那事實上常常也會有稱之不齊的很大的問題甚至過去你們自己評鑑又到丁等的一個機構來接最後也沒辦法讓他們暫停先提供服務那你未來事實上整個委託方向會是什麼樣是學校才能接還是一般民間因為大部分來接的有很大的團體可是也有地方政府完全沒有團體來接的時候找了一個非常小的團體他們自己母機構就已經事實上可能存在一些問題的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11686.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11697.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
你如果要執行公權力到底強度會到多強否則再回來還是影響到海賊權益過去不是沒有縣市在執行說我要拘托中心的人去評鑑保姆結果評了優等結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11700.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11729.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
被揭發惡虐那你怎麼去說服社會大眾所以我的意思說要讓我們放心說你未來強度非常的強所以居托中心的委託要執行公權力沒有太大問題否則我們也很擔心的是說如果事實上是稱之不齊的時候再執行公權力最後還是影響到因為我覺得居托中心的工作人員最難的地方是他跟保姆又要合作可是又要去監督他們他們本來就有雙重的角色的時候你怎麼去做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11729.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11753.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
如果你要完全事實上是監督的角色那你又要怎麼做因為你畢竟還是一個是1比60的一個量不是像一般的我們兒少保的個案事實上可能1比20或是1比15那你是1比60的量你怎麼然後你怎麼去確保這個工作人員在執行工作的時候沒有太大問題尤其他母雞哥要去執行你的工作所以可不可以讓我知道說到底你們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11755.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11764.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
準備怎麼做才會讓我們覺得說不要去列入在這邊應該要有一些要求在不是今天一句話就說接下來我們要讓他執行公權力可是品質呢這個是我們比較擔憂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11770.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11785.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
跟委員報告齁那因為這個在這次法律通過如果一旦通過的時候那居家托育服務中心的定位其實會有一個比較大的改變那它等於就是一個受託行使公權利那所以在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11786.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11802.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
當它產生的時候它跟政府中間接受委託的時候其實依照行政程序法的觀念的話它其實中間就會有一個更明確的在受託行使職權的事項的時候就會有一個更完整的約定那當然在這個締約的過程裡面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11804.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11824.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那直轄市縣市政府當然就會需要去怎麼樣去找到一個適合來執行這樣子工作的一個團體那以現在的情況來講確實我們也有接到直轄市縣市政府的反應說他在找到這樣的一個合作夥伴的時候是有遇到一些挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11825.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11851.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那這個部分的話我們也會跟直轄市縣市政府來一併做更深入的了解是在團體的意願還是在其他周邊委託的事項的內容那還是有其他的事項上面在這個操作上有相關的困擾這個部分未來在執行面的時候我們會來了解地方政府實際上遇到的困擾來協助地方政府來解決這個找到團體的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11852.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11876.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那也會在締約的過程裡面那讓直轄市跟縣市政府和這個未來合作的這個團體中間有一個更明確的一個這個約定的內容那讓雙方的這個權限能夠更明確那也減少團體去接這樣的一個工作的時候的像可能的一些疑慮那這個部分我們大家都會來努力蘇貞瑋 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11881.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11900.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我覺得月琴講的請大家也稍微參考一下我們的版本我們的版本在第二章裡面的居家托育事實上比行政院用嘴巴講的他現在所講的他們對居托中心未來會跟現在怎麼樣的不一樣會有什麼變革會更完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11905.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11922.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
都没有那我们的版本事实上在第15条我们里面大概明定了居托中心他的业务职长那他的职责然后我们也希望不是这样就好因为你受公权力的委托然后要去访试要去督导要去评鉴 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11923.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11943.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那你必須要有法源基礎那你的居托中心的仿事督導評鑑你的人力你的消極資格是什麼積極資格是什麼都要納管而你今天在這裡空口說白話人家說你醫療的怎麼樣怎麼樣的比較好那些都假的所以我們的版本直接就法律版本裡面明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11944.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11971.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們的第15條就開始然後這個居托中心的人員的積極資格消極資格居托中心的業務執掌職責通通都寫下來所以是不是請主席參考我們的然後到居家托育的那一環的時候我們可以來討論但是呢零托這個概念其實是可以地方政府要提供這樣的服務啦對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11974.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12003.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
但是我們的居托中心不能像現在這樣子竊聲為名也不能如衛福部署長剛才所講的我們未來會更好用嘴講的不好一定要法律明文規定入法法律之後再授權需要法律保留原則的通通要寫出來你要叫他去執行公權力那他法律授權法律保留出來定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12004.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12025.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
然後你們有這麼高強度的權力了那你們的從業人員消極資格積極資格通通規範出來這樣子才對所以請大家到時候我們到第二章我們的版本裡面他們不想的他們不願意他們不是不想的他們不願意入法的我們其實都寫進來了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12030.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12043.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
現在目前居託中心的工作人員都已經資格上沒有什麼大的要求了所以我認為如果又講說以後委託就會解決這個問題我不認為以我在過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12044.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12073.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
在不管是產業評鑑這些我認為這樣子沒有辦法解決問題因為我們最擔心的還是事實上如果工作人員沒有對保姆有比較好的監督管理的話那還是會出事所以從這樣角度上來看那這一條是不是先行保留再跟署任委員講說15條有我們第14條是居多中心的業務執掌第15條是居多中心也要評鑑我們放在15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12075.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12081.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對 後面就有1415那我們是不是到時候1415的時候再回過頭來看第6條這樣子會比較好絕對不能如署長和衛福部現在講的這個我同意這個絕對不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12089.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12115.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
因為今天我們討論這部法都是攸關他們年齡比較年幼的0到2歲的孩子的權益所以我們要更謹慎現在我們要跟衛福部講就是說你們想要更便宜形式的方法事實上是不行的整個社會對便宜形式已經很反彈了而我們今天在法律上如果只是單純都順從你們的架構都照你們所說的那恐怕社會也接受不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12115.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12124.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們今天的立法若是這樣都叫你那樣簡單便宜行事行政本位主義這樣子的立法出來社會會反彈因為現在到一個段落有接近12點那我們現在休息用餐下午2點繼續開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
19789.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
19814.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好,我們下午會議繼續開始現在是進行文書評論員的第七條討論,他還有一條修正動議因為今天一共有20版,然後還有修正動議記在這裡像通常我們現在審查行政院版第七條一共有20個版本,加上一條修正動議,通常會這樣宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
19816.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
19829.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
然後那個現在因為這一條對不上任何一條所以是單獨審他的第七條這樣子接下去審然後跟那個委員的求選動議那今天通過的就是除了這個張銘跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
19845.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
19863.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那個林淑媛提的第七條的修正草案,因為人不在我們就先保留。好,我們接續。就是針對第七條,有學生公益第六條,還有其他總共有20個版本。請行政機關表示意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
19872.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
19892.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
院版的第七條,林委那個也是第七條,不過林委的第七條跟這個院版的第七條是不一樣的所以那一條就先保留,我們除以院版的第七條還有一個修正動議,第五嘛對不對?第六案 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
19900.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
19922.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
有關行政院版的第七條的部分目前在這個主要規範的內容是包括中央主管機關和職家縣市主管機關需要去成立有關對於托育事務的一些諮詢的組織在這個部分委員提案的部分重點大概有比較不一樣的內容比較不一樣的地方有包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
19923.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
19938.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
第一個林耀勤委員、何新準委員、王玉敏委員、邱若驊委員、陳素月委員、游浩委員等人提案那有增列一項最後一項就是有關他的迴避的部分的話要准用行政程序法的規定那這個部分的話因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
19939.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
19954.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
考慮到這樣的一個諮詢會議已經是在法律裡面已經有明文的規定所以在行政程序的適用上面的話如果委員對未來這些諮詢會議的委員對於涉及自身事務或者相關部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
19955.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
19981.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
有迴避的需要的時候當然就是本來就是會準用到行政程序法有關迴避的規定所以當時在討論的時候這個條文我們就沒有特別再去寫有關是不是要再去做迴避的需要那這個部分本來是已經可以準用這是當初在立法上面的時候當初的一個想法那先做以上的說明那第二點那有關王玉民委員的提案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
19981.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
20008.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
的內容有提到甄烈是在資訊委員會如果涉及到原住民相關議題的時候應該要邀請據原住民兒童權益倡議經驗或者是從事原住民兒童托育服務的團體來參與那這點的話這個能夠關照到所有這些有需要團體這點部分其實我們非常的支持那只是說這個在條文裡面是不是只有如果是只針對原住民這一個類別的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
20008.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
20027.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
会不会还有其他的类别的团体也需要列在条文的文法制技术上面是不是需要去做这样的处理这个部分的话可能就依照委员大家讨论的结果我们来做一定的处理大概就先做以上的说明谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
20028.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
20043.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
好 謝謝然後陳則事委員好 謝謝主席那個針對剛剛這個在署長的說法就衛福部對於諮詢會裡面成員有沒有做什麼利益迴避的設計那因為今年衛福部做了整個盤點 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
20045.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
20063.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
他把裡面所有的民意代表就立法委員全部排除掉我自己就收了兩張一張是議事司的那個鑰匙懲戒委員會一張就是健保署健保署的那個專家自立小組的部分所以我是認為這個東西不是有什麼原則的問題就因為那是還是新的他們新討論的才做出的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
20064.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
20079.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以這個我還是覺得這個對於裡面的成員有沒有做利益迴避的設計還要講清楚我們就要講清楚因為我自己就在今年被衛福部盤點了兩張就是說改變而且是新的改變民意代表可不可以 有沒有漢格之處民意代表跟這個行政機關之間有沒有漢格之處還是要講清楚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
20094.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
20121.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好 這請林議員 請委員 可是意見可不可以請衛福部說明一下因為我們大概有幾個委員都有列身心障礙團體代表因為身心障礙團體進入到托育中心或者是到保母家的時候都有一些不一樣的可能需求在所以才會想說在這邊去列入他們那你剛剛沒有說明說為什麼你們這個不去列入 這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
20122.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
20148.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
另外一個就是說今天有沒有把這個委會的工作講清楚說明白是諮詢嗎諮詢只是問意見和一個我們有列入因為過去在託資會的話通常過去會有審議審議收退費這些東西那你現在沒有的話你沒有列入這個那諮詢只是諮詢意見還是未來有些審議的功能在所以是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
20149.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
20160.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
也要講清楚說明牌所以你到底不列這個的考量是什麼以上好沒有委員其他意見我們就請來請汪委員汪委員這個確定完之後再請署長一併回應謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
20164.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
20190.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好剛好這個林委員也到了現場因為第7條其實林委員也很關心剛剛一群委員提到除了這些協議規劃諮詢以外似乎也很希望有更嚴謹的處理模式尤其是未來在相關的一些不管是縮拖方式或者是有關於這個薪資的處理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
20191.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
20217.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
兩位林委員都希望有審議的機制在裡面,所以這邊也會提供這樣的補充跟支持好,謝謝齁林書偉剛到齁,因為林書偉你還沒有到之前有審第七條你沒到先保留,因為你的第七條跟現在討論的時候的第七條是不一樣的啦齁你的是第八條啦,是第八條我們也是第七條啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
20222.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
20247.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你的是第八條 你看一下那個表格 沒關係等一下對一下啦不是啦 因為我們的版本 行政院沒有我們的概念所以他沒有我們的這一個這個概念第七條不是在講這個諮詢會嗎院版的諮詢會啊對啊 那我們第七條我們也是審議會啊為什麼我們的版本跟他不一樣 我們是一樣的架構是一樣 內容不一樣啊這是行政院對詐的 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
20251.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
20265.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
沒有啦 我們的他們在中央叫諮詢會 我們要改成審議會是有道理的我們是同一條 怎麼會不同條但我們的概念是不一樣的啊為什麼說我們是第八條 我們是第七條啊來 請次長回應主席 在座各位委員 大家好我了解啦 那個主任委員所說的啦就是到底是質疑還是審議啦 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
20280.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
20292.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們是拆成兩部分第一條是中央要負責什麼然後第八條是地方要負責什麼那你們就只有只有一條而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
20296.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
20321.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
不好意思,我處理一下,這不是沒關係啦,你如果賣了,他的第七條就夾完,因為他對照表是第七條我是兩條,七八條,他是一條你我講完的啦,好不好,所以你如果賣的是第七條,你不想跟委員的第七條,跟現在我們所謂的第七條,跟他的第八條當作檢討,好不好,第七條、第八條,好,那就一定回應啦,好不好,好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
20323.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
20339.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
針對委員所垂詢的幾個部分簡單的說明如下林委員大概是把我們院版的第七條我們是統一規定各級主管機關要做的任務林委員把它分別針對中央主管機關和直轄市縣市主管機關分成兩條來做相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
20341.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
20362.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那第二個在這個會議的內容裡面那是要用諮詢或者是審議那這個目前現在來看我們行政院版之所以會建議先用諮詢主要是考慮到說第一個是確實有很多部分是需要做一些相關的討論那第二個是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
20364.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
20372.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
即使是剛才有向委員提示到的像費用等等的議題最後在委員會議討論的結果最後對外公布的時候基本上都還是用行政機關的名義對外來表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
20388.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
20415.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
所以我們這個在以往的行政上面來看那他性質上面其實還是最後對外負責的不管是有中央或者地方主管機關他要承擔這個最後的一個對外表示的一個結果那所以在對內的這個爭取意見的過程不管是用審議或者是質疑其實最後對外都是由行政部門來做對外的一個表示那大概是這樣的一個過程那剛才有幾位委員所提到林惠琴委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
20417.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
20437.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
聲音障礙團體的部分這個部分的話如同剛才有提跟王一鳴委員有提到的有關原住民兒童議題的部分這個部分其實可能會面臨就是在主要是一個立法技術上面我們怎麼樣去把一個在一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
20439.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
20455.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
未來的諮詢會裡面其實委員的人數畢竟還是有一個還是在為了讓會議比較順利進行的前提之下人員的上線的時候怎麼樣去納入到相關各類的兼顧各類的族群的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
20455.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
20475.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那以往大概在這個托育的部分比較常會聽到的可能會包括了像有可能有原住民的可能有身心障礙的那以往大概也有可能有新住民的部分這幾個大概都是比較常聽到那說是不是還有其他的有一些族群可能有類似的需求的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
20475.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
20493.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
所以我们这样的针对这些族群的部分其实除了他本身除了以现在如果以院版的条文他如果兼具有这些不管是服务团体学者或者是家长团体等等那有这样的身份本来就可以进来那即便 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
20494.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
20508.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那沒有如果在選任的時候沒有考慮到這個部分在個別議題討論的時候仍然是可以加邀這些團體或者是相關的人員那來進來一併來納入討論那那個列舉來一併討論這個在技術上是也可以來做相對應的處理那這個最後有關陳委員所關心的這個有關迴避的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
20519.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
20547.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那如同剛才大概做了說明那如果這個因為現在有委員版的提案的部分那現在主要是油化委員的版本那他的文字是第一項如果委員有迴避的時候就是依照行政程序法的規定來辦理那這個如果是不是有需要在迴避的室友裡面是不是有需要再做額外的處理的我直接問立法委員可不可以在裡面嗎很多專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
20549.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
20559.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
邱部長你這個衛福部才剛剛盤點啊今年才剛剛盤點所有委員會啊把立法委員排除啊那你現在你現在你現在這裡要不要排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
20564.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
20591.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這個當然立委中央主管機關設定的審議會裡面或是諮詢會裡面立委還去參加這又行政又立法的早就說不行了啊這還用討論嗎說不行就嘴巴講了跟你我就學你講要黑白字寫下來就那個要寫下來就是要寫下去那要寫就是不可以寫下去那個就說沒有啦你說的不尊聖啊你要寫下去也可以寫下去啦我也是不滿意這個迴避就在講清楚啦現在的事情就是寫這根本就不可以寫下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
20592.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
20598.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
你今天才盤點喔而且健保部分是重新去討論喔你們用法務重新討論並不是跟到行政程序法承認八百年前就存在了你們是新的討論然後後來又跑出一條懲戒法倫理的那個藥師懲戒法的話又自動從144把它除掉所以你整個處理不能擔任這裡面的委員就好了不要再搶到開花開到旁邊請尊重我的發言權啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
20622.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
20646.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
我走過這條路啊 今年才處理啊不是啊 討論不要開花 開到這裡去嘛我沒有開花 今天你第七條諮詢委員要回避什麼 要講清楚將來這個是很大的 搞不好很大的工程很大的產業都可能對啦 現在要回避什麼 你已經回避原則我們要聽出來 下一個的立法要清楚了 立法說明就清楚你民意代表就直接下去這個承諾 這個承諾 這是個承諾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
20648.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
20657.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
來 請次長回應來報告主席 這樣啦 我想我們就尊教委員的我們就發明定吧好不好 看要 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
20658.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
20679.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
是不是在那個說明欄這樣還是沒有啦 你也不可以把你寫一句說這些什麼委員應遵循利益迴避原則啦啊寫下去說明欄你這裡去看要放多少東西迴避啦對啦 放上去代表我們宣示產業業者不能進來重點不是立委啦 立委本來就不能進去重點是產業的業者是不是應該要迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
20681.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
20709.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
還是像需要迴避需要迴避的恐怕是產業的業者這一種的啦立委是一定要寫上去啦立委的時候也不見得比產業界更乾淨啦立委要放進去做壞事的立委也很多沒有啦 大家都很好的啦真的啦沒有啦 大家都稱之不齊啦每個行業都一樣 有好有壞不然主席我們是不是修一下文字我們就原則上就把它放進來這樣好不好一定要放啊就要一致啊衛福部的整個作業所有的資料都需要這樣放啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
20710.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
20712.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那你這個承諾進去啊那你審議會裡面有這個托育機構代表那就是產業界了 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
20719.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
20744.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
有嗎 托育機構團體代表他就產業界了對啊他就是要 他可能是工會的好啦 OK我不確定誰是利益該迴避的啦我不知道啦除了立委以外還有誰啦所以他要講利益迴避啊那到底是誰因為我們本來不管行政院版或是我們版本其實都有這個從業人員的這個代表在裡面啦不管審議會或諮詢會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
20746.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
20751.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
但是誰應該要立意迴避?誰?我不知道這個因為新跑出來的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
20754.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
20773.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
陳業界委請衛福部部長大家討論看看因為在現在很多團體是有病人病人算不算利益的我不知道因為他們是直接相關的現在很多病人是那個角色所以你們思考一下但是立委你要一致民意代表你要先一致因為已經有例子了已經有兩三個會的例子了好 好嗎好 我的重點不是這樣我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
20777.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
20795.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那個這樣啦 我知道那個十分委員最重點就是說就兩個嘛 一個就是說中央跟地方嘛對不對但是我跟你說我是個人絕對反對諮詢會啦因為連兒校權法裡面對委員會的名稱都沒有規定那各縣市至少也統一叫做托育制度管理委員會對沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
20797.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
20821.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
它有管理的全責性法律上的名詞關係到它的這個位階的屬性和定位那你現在把它變成知議會就只有諮詢的性質事實上把它定成知議會諮詢會這個都比這個兒少全法裡面的管理會管理委員會還要更倒退更不要講我個人的我們的版本代表托盟所提出來版本我們是要的是審議會當然是因為功能職責職長不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
20826.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
20835.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
但是改成諮詢會就是倒退如何全力倒退這個是我覺得我個人是沒有辦法接受諮詢會這三個字啊好謝謝再請王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
20839.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
20844.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
有關於第七條我想這個主管機關也要適度說明一下就是說你召開的這個是屬於政策諮詢性質的會議嗎還是是要審議的因為審議不一樣我們那個病毒法其實才剛開過 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
20856.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
20861.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
審議的性質是你有案子你要一個一個來審要決定過或不過那如果是屬於你政策就是說目前整個托育方向的政策那你要實行這樣的政策你要或者是有些共通的議題要召集大家來開會或者是協調基本上這兩個屬性不一樣的那原來包括我自己提出來的這個版本它應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
20882.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
20902.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
他是比較偏向是諮詢會議的性質就是說相關的托育的政策你是你要廣泛的邀請這一些跟這件事情有關的所有的代表來表示意見可能是你一個新的制度要上路或是現行的制度有什麼樣的問題是廣泛邀請大家來表示意見然後作為你政策上面的一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
20903.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
20929.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以原本我提出來的版本我們的重點其實是擺在這邊那如果是剛剛淑芬委員提到的是到了審議會性質那表示說是有案子要審的我基本上覺得屬性不一樣那定位不一樣你要邀請的代表當然就不一樣如果是屬於政策諮詢性質那當然廣泛性很高所以在我的版本裡面我有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
20930.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
20934.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
包括有很多的這個相關的代表包括兒童團體家長團體婦女團體老公團體跟這個事情有關的團體就儘可能的邀請讓大家有公共參與的空間這個是我當時在看這個條文的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
20947.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
20965.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
在思考的問題所以那個定位坦白講很重要就是是擺在哪裡那如果是這樣的一個專法過去在立法例裡面都會有屬於這樣的一個廣泛的邀請大家一起開會然後徵詢大家意見這樣的一個委員會那是不是因為諮詢會這幾個字比較會被誤解對 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
20972.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
20990.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
對 那所以剛剛淑芬委員提到的那個 你要的是審議會你的也是諮詢會啊好好好對 我覺得就是先定義清楚啦然後那個成員就會不一樣啦對啊好 謝謝 再請吳立華委員滿座再請林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
20993.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
21021.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
好 謝謝主席那關於第7條我自己的版本就是有關托育服務我是寫諮詢會啦那因為基本上我也是本來認為說他是為了做整合規劃協調但是我很在意的也覺得一定要具體寫上去的就是關於諮詢的議題如果涉及到原住民相關的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
21022.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
21038.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
一定要有原住民兒童權益倡議經驗的或從事原住民兒童托育服務的團體代表一定要參與那要不然很多的時候我們沒有辦法去如實反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
21038.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
21047.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
地方的做法 聲音還有它的特殊性我舉個例子像那時候蔡英文總統的政策0到6歲國家養就辣掉了所謂的部落互助教保中心他們因為完全沒有定位 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
21056.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
21071.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以沒有被接住所以我覺得其實台灣是一個我們既然已經在成員上面就是要求要多元的代表跨部會的一個參與諮詢所以這個部分就是希望一定要只是剛才我們部裡面的回應也有去讓大家就是要去想一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
21080.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
21093.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
因為我們有性別主流化所以會關注性別的比例部分但是因為我們還沒有族群主流化所以我們也沒有辦法去規定說一定要有什麼樣的族群的成員組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
21095.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
21114.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
但是他是用臨時有議題才邀請呢還是說在我們的成員當中就已經要有身心障礙代表還是原住民議題的這些專家學者代表那這個部分我還是想要聽一下就是部裡面對於這樣的一個規劃謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
21119.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
21145.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
好 那個林委員要不要一併補充好 那現在我要跟各位委員解釋說為什麼我們是省議會我們的制度跟整個衛福部的草案非常的不一樣是在於說我們認為現在的居家托育裡面費用都是由地方政府自己制定那今天那個陳培宇委員來他說馬祖地區你知道托育一個幼兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
21147.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
21171.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
一個月好像一萬一而已一萬一台北市是一萬八那其實我那天我們接到雲林的從業工剛回的理事長他有反應我聽他在講是說他們覺得他們的所獲得的報酬不對等那除了沒有尊嚴沒有被尊重以外其實會讓更多的從業人員不想再這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
21176.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
21182.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
顧一個六萬二顧兩個兩萬四那實在說有段時間人家不愛做年輕人都不愛做寧願不做所以在這種狀況裡面我們在想要怎麼樣讓地方政府其實要定在合理的收費的範疇要地方政府定期去檢討其實地方政府都不容易像我們其實就不容易管得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
21200.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
21204.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那所以我們想那中央其實應該政策面上還有這個應該要扛起這個責任但是我們知道各地方的各地方的可支配所的物價水準各區域都有不一樣所以中央也很難訂出我們本來想中央克則中央來訂收費標準但我們知道說中央也很難訂出一個也符合北部了可能就不符合金門馬祖的或是雲林的 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
21227.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
21248.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
所以那我們想是不是可以依據可支配所的物價水準中央我們提一個修正就是說你應該是可以訂出收費的地板和天花板上下限標準給地方政府去調整讓地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
21248.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
21268.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
最後決策要收多少還是地方政府決定但是中央訂一個這個標準然後給這個上下限的標準是上下限的標準那地板可能是給你知道顧一個小孩從業人員有保障勞動權益有保障其實對小孩也是一種保障然後但是你要顧及家長的可負擔性所以也要訂出一個上限你不要說訂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
21280.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
21291.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這個上限沒有上限的話他可能也是私託啦或什麼也是很困擾所以是不是在居家托育裡面訂出上下限的收費標準然後我不強迫你中央訂出來標準給地方這個收費至少給地方審核收費的時候做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
21301.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
21318.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
做參考 OK我不強迫你這個參考性是強度高到地方政府都必須依照這個但是你要訂出一個給他們參考那其實不是有法律就可以的為什麼後來覺得說不用中央去訂廢率的原因是土法不足以自行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
21321.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
21326.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
你訂出來沒辦法執行 政府也會犯大從業人員也會犯大 北部也會犯大那我們訂這個標準要幹什麼就是說其實我們要問責的手段很多地方政府對中央訂的上下限的標準他要聽嗎 他要遵守嗎 他要參考嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
21342.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
21351.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這個不是只有這個法律的法律責任要頂個四年不是手段很多還包括他們地方政府議員可以問責還包括社會可以集體問責的政治責任所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
21358.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
21373.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這個費用要收多少家長不反彈費用要收多少從業人員有保障對小孩也有保障還是交給地方政府但是我們中央一定要定義北區中區南區北中南東或是離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
21374.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
21386.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
至少五種的收費的依據可支配所得物價水準去訂出上下線來給地方政府參考我強度沒有要求你幫他們訂費率但是你訂一個參考的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
21389.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
21393.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以我才想說我們是不是應該要一個審議會再來就是說收費退費的項目我們也應該訂一個中央級的行政指導給地方政府不然什麼時候可以收費許可收費什麼時候不允許退費或許可退費那個應該要全國一致性啦收費退費的項目和這個基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
21417.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
21438.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這個應該可以中央訂了出來所以基於如此我們會有審議的機制然後有召開審議會這樣的一個設計的功能那否則如果照中央政府所寫的整合規劃協調然後召開諮詢會還有一個叫諮詢托育服務我不曉得中央版本的諮詢托育服務講的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
21440.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
21456.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
變成那個諮詢會是被人家諮詢托育服務的是什麼東西所以架構上是原則上是這樣子啦那所以這條規範的是中央主管機關要做什麼後面我們才放這個地方主管機關要做什麼這樣子好 謝謝林委員 接下來請陳議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
21463.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
21479.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我呼籲一下剛才吳麗華委員有特別提到就是說除了性別主流化當然還有這個我們也關心族群主流化還沒有落實的很好的這個問題因為在我們遇到的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
21480.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
21498.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
過去的案例當中有一些文化跟語言上的呈現跟表達的時候確實會有需要我們原住民的代表在裡面可能會比較理想但因為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
21500.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
21523.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
我是认为就是说也了解就是说在整个可能案件的比例上或区域上我们人口分布的问题那是不是就是说有特殊状况的时候我们要特别再请我们原住民的代表进来我想这样的状况我是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
21524.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
21544.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那再来就是在我们第7条的这个有关于咨询会召开的目的由各级主管机关就为了这个整合规划协调跟咨询托育服务那到底这个要来召开的这个要件是怎么样然后我们要多久开一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
21546.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
21555.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
會議結果是不是需要公開那當然我們這個草案裡面沒有很明確規定或許你們要放在細則裡面但是我覺得起碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
21556.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
21578.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我們是不是可以考慮就是說這個諮詢會召開的時間頻率至少多久一次這件事情我們是不是要把它放進去好避免說未來在各級就是各主管機關這個托育服務如果有自在難行的時候大家不曉得要怎麼處理或者有什麼樣很 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
21580.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
21592.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
不管是刻意或怎么样的状态结果就拖延了这也是有可能所以这个部分我想这样的建议大家可以讨论一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
21594.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
21617.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
好最後再請林業勤委員來做表示意見完之後就請行政機關做綜合答案如果這樣的話我建議是不是因為我的當然也是寫那個諮詢可是本來現在目前各地方中央沒有設可是地方有設的事實上是推制度管理委員會的確他的強度會比較強就會比較是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
21619.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
21636.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
署分委員提的在第7條事上是有審議的確現在地方也有一些審議的功能我的沒有我的寫諮詢可是內容上比較會像現在的目前地方政府的有審議的功能在所以就會建議就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
21637.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
21663.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
不知道淑芬委員的想法七八條合併然後中央跟地方政府都是用審議的一個角度上來看因為尤其是托嬰中心他變化比較大甚至互助式的有時候會在地方的時候中央有一個大方向可是地方還是會去審議他的比較一地方的一些權責獲得事實上是整個他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
21664.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
21688.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
当地的那个收入的状态来去做一些规划所以我认为事实上是可不可以去做这样的一个考量所以我想问一下我们的卫福部这边还有一个就是说因为处分委员写的会比较多的代表这也是不是等下也要去讨论的为什么因为中央的只有写居福 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
21689.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
21710.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
居家托育服务团体和托育机构团体可是所用尾文的事项是有居家托育服务团体以外还有居家托育服务人员和托育机构团体的代表所以就会所以它增加了一列就是居家托育人员的代表那 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
21711.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
21734.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
還有不過前面的話還有托育人員的團體等於是中央它有四類地方都有三類可是如果從我們的行政院的話它大概只有兩類就是只有機構不管是居家托育服務團體還有一個托育機構團體人員的沒有列入那看等一下是不是應該要不要去做考量以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
21735.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
21752.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
尤其我會不會在現在的話因為剛剛孫委員是把第七條再拆分為七跟八因為第七條原來行政院版是說各級主管機關那為了要讓他更明確一點所以孫委員才會在第七條用中央主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
21753.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
21780.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
第八條在新增是對象就是直轄市的地方主管機關那裡面的確一開始的時候孫委員是認為中央主管機關需要用審議的這個方式會比較能夠來針對於他要執行的這些項是做更好的規範那在於這個地方主管機關他是用質疑的方式希望能夠就能符合需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
21780.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
21802.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
不過剛剛右協委也希望說是不是質疑跟審議如果地方主管機關也有審議的功能的話也比較能夠強化在地方主管機關未來碰到問題的一些執行方式所以看就是能不能七八條如果把剛剛所討論的內容有沒有機會再重新整合成為一條就可以那如果真的不行的話看有什麼對應方式以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
21806.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
21829.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
我覺得七八條整合成一條寫在一起我覺得是可以的但不是很困難可能條文內容比較多項一點但是首先我們必須要討論就是說要不要克責中央審議會他要有責任要去訂出依台灣分區因為分區各區的生活物價水準不一樣可支配所得不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
21830.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
21846.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
那他們應該要訂出一個收費的退費的這個項目和標準然後訂出上下限但是這個上下限並不是強迫地方政府都應該強度高到全部都要聽我的 不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
21848.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
21875.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我們本來是希望這樣中央扛責啦 全部都聽中央 中央就訂起來但我覺得現在的務實面去討論 至少你訂出一個上下線給地方去參考 請地方要參考 因為這個在有線電視的收費裡面 中央其實有訂出了這個收費的上限 你地方決定你有線電視一個月要收多少錢 但是不可以超出我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
21875.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
21894.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
定的天花板像這個中央就有這樣那像還有什麼交通規費的好像也有訂出上下線然後給地方這個監理單位要去執行的時候要去處理的這樣子類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
21897.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
21920.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那這個東西我們要先討論要不要我個人是覺得這樣子好的原因是因為地方政府真的沒有壓力地方議會對地方政府的感到的強度對不上我們立法院啦再來就是說他們同學都不要檢討地方政府都不要檢討因為多做多錯少做少錯所以我們就看到你像媽祖帶一個小孩一個月一萬一 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
21921.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
21925.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
沒人要做啊 沒人要做之後呢人家就說大姐 沒人要帶孩子 我也不要住在這裡我不要住在這裡 這個村子整個都沒年輕人那個村子就繼續沒落 可能連學校都要廢掉了因為沒孩子嘛 就廢校嘛 廢校以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
21938.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
21959.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
連村裡可能都人口一直持續流失這個陷入一個惡性的循環大家都知道從日本到台灣現在台灣你不要講偏鄉啊你看很多地區新北的山上遠一點的搞不好你廢校以後這個村大概就要一直廢掉都沒有人搬出去流失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
21959.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
21979.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面我們訂一個合理的保障從業人員的然後也保障從業人員以後進而就保障了托育的品質但是也訂一個對家長而言你沒有訂一個上限但是家長負擔不起或是變相的收費名目一大堆這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
21985.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
22003.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
啊 家長無法負擔這個 大家就 也不行的啊所以訂一個參考標準給地方政府參考或是再強制地方政府每兩年就要檢討一次每兩年就要跟著物價水準調整一次類似這樣子啦是不是 大家這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
22004.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
22031.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
大家一起幫助從業人員那我們不管諮詢會審議會裡面我們裡面增加的就是說居家托育人員團體代表就講居家托育人員自己組成的社團那居家托育服務團體代表就是指居托中心的承辦團體代表這大家可以討論一下一個就居托中心的代表一個就是從業人員的社團 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
22034.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
22062.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那看 看怎麼樣啦 大家可以可以討論一下啦 但是就拜託大家我們克責於中央 也是不能夠計劃 要怎麼收集什麼可以收費 什麼可以退費都記在每個地方各自為政然後整個全國標準都不一致這樣子不太好 所以我們是不是中央要扛起這個責任 定期標準給地方政府 收費標準是參考的 但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
22062.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
22071.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
消費退費項目是應該要強制規定的這個應該在右照裡面有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
22073.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
22093.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
好 可以了 我們要來處理了我們現在處理是這樣 因為大家討論這麼久我們現在是林淑穩的第七條跟院版的第七條也是林淑穩的第八條然後他還有另外兩個修正動議也是在第七跟第八是不是請一併再做一個答覆 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
22094.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
22110.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
主席 一起在座各位委員 大家好我那三點簡單來回覆第一點 我暫時就是剛才講的七八條整個把它整併這第一點 第二點這第一點 第二點 我收穫很多我如果各位報告這個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
22112.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
22120.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
那個所謂審議會就類似德國保險基金會的這一個保費審議機制啦德國的處理縫隙就像是聯邦眾院訂出剛剛像蘇芬委員所說的上下限 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
22127.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
22138.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
上上線之後各個保險基金會自己再去訂個別的費率我口比共啦 德國的費率現在是這樣大概譬如說費率的14%到16%中間但是14%到16%你要怎麼訂你們保險基金會自己去決定但是這裡面會影響到就是說你當你訂的高的話那你的給付範圍就要高 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
22148.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
22152.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
聯邦這邊也會去訂出您剛剛所說的那個整個收費項目這個是確實中央要來管所以這點如果是這樣的話那我們就朝審議會的方向來規劃這一點我也覺得競表同意我覺得可以朝這個方向因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
22166.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
22168.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
上下線的部分我們回去做分區 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
22195.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
22208.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這樣就審議會了同時也刻意地方政府你們自己本身你們要那個整個你要扛起責任但是這裡面就牽涉到就是說這裡面所要產生的代表代表人代表性這裡面可能又是另外一個但是我們會來參考剛才委員所說的我們來進行這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
22212.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
22233.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
對啦就是那個收費退費的這個項目應該要是強制性的這個存果統一一致性的啦但是這個費用收費我們就訂參考值讓你們參考這樣子但是我們可能要講克哲瑜他們也是要跟著物價水準兩年調整一次要實時檢討我們後面還有一個條文就是克哲瑜中央要兩年調整那跟著地方也要跟著兩年調整一次參考物價水準變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
22243.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
22262.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
因為如果用這個設計,這個理論上會有一個效果就是說整個薪資一方面可以提高,品質也可以提高這個裡面某種程度可以形成一個良性循環但是也要考慮到各個地方本身的個別差異所以我們讓他參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
22266.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
22287.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
訂出五區,東西南北中,然後再加上離島六區,分區定標準如果大院是這樣一個方向,那我們就回去,我們就朝這個方向來擬密這個是從業人員,特別是居托人員在這裡特別希望拜託每一個立委及企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
22288.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
22306.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
因為他們 其實我們在新北台北都會地區五感 六都可能也五感可是真的是非都會地區的這些從業人員真的地方政府的拚勁喔有時候是要放得很遠的對啊 這講這種很正常如果是這樣說 已經林委員所說的就不是叫做北中蘭了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
22308.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
22333.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
就不叫北中南了你要定的這樣的一個目標跟方向事實上你要考量就好像要針對中低收入戶跟低收入戶的那個依照一般縣市六都有六都的計算方式每一都的計算方式都不一樣然後一般縣市是一塊六都是各一塊然後里島是一塊因為你如果單純分北中南可能沒有辦法達到你想要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
22334.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
22349.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那個目標所以那個依據可能你們要思考清楚方向上是大家同意的話那這個細節上讓他們去整合讓他們去寫寫看七八條也讓他們寫寫看整合在一起看看方向就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
22351.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
22376.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
另外那個像陳英委員典典有關心到那個在我們的這個審議會不管中央或地方也還有吳立華委員裡面有關心這裡面可能也要把我們原住民的代表可能也要裡面一定比例也把它放進去這樣好不好我想我們就朝這個朝這個方向來抱歉我再補充一句我忘了我們審議會裡面還有一個功能就是要開發居家托育人力資源就是可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
22380.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
22391.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
省議會啦 要增加這個功能就對了我想這個也朝向我們那個居托 這確實他品質也要有一個改善機構就由這個Delegative body他來你們回去寫寫看 你要放進來這樣子好 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
22396.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
22408.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
所以我們就林委員的第七條跟院版還有所有委員的第七條跟林委員的第八條還有兩個修正動議就請協議機關在會診提供最好的條文草案再給我們所有的委員來做參考之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
22415.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
22429.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我們再來處理所以現在我們就針對這個部分我們就先做保留那接下來處理的是陳培穎委員的第八條跟林淑芬委員的第九條來請行政機關做說明請務務部做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
22438.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
22453.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
行政院版的第八條那主要是針對在托育服務的內容的一些不是喔你誤會了 對不起是有關陳培育委員和陳培育委員的第八條和林淑芬委員的第九條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
22454.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
22476.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
有關在托育服務實施的過程中對於兒童的怎麼樣去滿足一些相關的一些要達成的一些目標那這個部分行政版是沒有目前是沒有相關的條文那這個部分的話我們是建議這個因為他是一個比較一個一個原則性一個通案性的一個目標性的條文那 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
22477.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
22501.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
現在因為原來在第一條有一個立法的宗旨和目的那是不是需要在這邊再額外再增加一個條文我們是覺得這個部分可以看委員討論的結果那如果這個確實是覺得還是需要做細節的部分還是需要做相關的意見的話我們會尊重委員討論的決定 以上來 請提案委員 李委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
22502.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
22522.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
是這樣子第一條我們講的是整部法律的開宗明義的這個立法的宗旨那這一條看起來好像跟第一條的方向好像很像其實不一樣這一條講的是說我們要設定國家在托育服務上的國家政策目標要朝向哪個方向前進 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
22523.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
22542.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
不是立法的宗旨這裡講的是設定國家的目標政策那在這種狀況裡面也是參照這個右照法的第11條裡面有寫這樣的東西進去就是我們希望右照法有這個法律設定了國家的政策目標那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
22545.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
22565.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
兒童托育服務法也應該要而且我們希望一個更先進的立法就是說要比照像美國的居家托育品質指標一樣那我們把0到2歲更先進的國家政策寫上來那當然是宣示性但是也是希望政策要符合這些方向這樣子啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
22569.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
22589.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這個我提供給委員會做參考我們第一條我們第一條是有在修正通過是不是修正的條文陳委員也到了兩個條文再看一下第一條的修正條文如果有符合你們的第八條第九條那就請你們再做思考第一條有一個修正完的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
22591.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
22600.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
請給兩位演奏參考一下但是第一條跟我們的第第九條其實是不一樣的我是說修正好的喔 修正好的修正好的也沒有啊你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
22602.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
22625.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
也沒有啦,因為我們在說政策目標,你又是立法宗旨政策目標,要滿足兒童的生理需求的照顧建構兒童合宜又安全的成長環境然後兒童和照顧者的正向依附關係營造兒童平等民主尊重差異的學習環境然後要豐富兒童遊戲探索和體驗等等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
22626.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
22643.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
就是你其實在做托育服務的實施裡面我們希望設定這種國家目標而且這個目標是跟家庭功能跟家庭社區是密切的配合的然後是適合0到2歲404性發展的學習綱領的 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
22649.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
22669.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
所以是基本上跟宗旨不太一樣它比較像是政策發展上要怎麼朝向什麼目標設定出國家目標來這樣子主委你要不要表示意見好 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
22672.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
22699.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
剛剛林委員有特別說到這個說是404性的保育照顧確保兒童托育服務的品質其實這也是個目標啦我們追求的目標就是品質嘛來 現在請王委員在做說明之前我把我自己個人的想法這個看起來是很豐富的一種理想狀態就是我們期待在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
22700.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
22716.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這部法案裡面把這些目標能夠讓引導相關的機構來做這方面的處理不過現實上我比較擔心的是說如果我們把這個想法放進來那未來如何去要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
22717.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
22746.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
如果真的想要要求的時候那當然那個成本就會拉得非常高所以我不是反對我只是說如果我們用這個第八條來有這樣的這麼豐富的這種期待的話那萬一萬一在執行上有落差那我們將來怎麼去做相關的討論跟改善或者是檢討這是我個人對這一條的一個增加目前的一些想法歐委員不是反對啦但是只是晃進去怪怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
22747.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
22748.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那接下來請李月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
22752.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
22780.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
現在兩位委員的第八條跟我覺得院版的第八條會不會有一個競合關係在因為為什麼如果前面目標達成的話那底下的原來的院版的第八條裡面說托育服務應該尊重然後提供這些照顧那就回來說這些東西能不能滿足上面的目標像以一個最簡單的豐富兒童遊戲探索跟體驗居家保母可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
22781.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
22798.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
沒有 這個豐富又是什麼會不會沒辦法達到除非今天第八條文寫的事實上是說是整體性台灣的所有的包含是家庭可是目標又是寫托育服務的實施要跟家庭這個配合所以我就不知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
22799.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
22823.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我擔心的會是說保姆或甚至推中心還稍微容易一點因為場地大可是保姆的話沒有辦法的時候會不會又讓更多保姆去退卻因為底下第八條本來就寫了這些他要做的工作內容就這些工作內容要回到這個目標那這兩個真的要去思考說怎麼去處理否則的話會不會沒有辦法做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
22826.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
22829.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
林委員完之後再換陳委員陳委員完之後再換陳陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
22856.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
22856.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
不一定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
22858.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
22886.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我去評鑑的話這些政策目標國家發展的方向全部都要一一全部都滿足並不是但我們希望國家在制定最上位的托育服務我們國家到底這個托育服務最理想境界要達到什麼目的那0到20歲最適性適齡的發展他的身體動作社會情緒語言溝通認知探索或是生活治理等的他的發展項目的需求到底是應該要朝向哪個方向去 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
22886.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
22900.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
去發展那國家在制定這個政策和目標的時候其實就盡量要達成我們以下的這些目標然後讓機構和這個從業人員去遵循但是他不會直接等於是評鑑項目啦不會啦好 接下來請陳經理委員之後再陳培議委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
22907.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
22934.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
這條看起來是很理想性那根據右邊其他國家所制定出來的我是覺得很很理想性宣示性不過我是剛看到衛福部有改了第一條看是不是把比較宣示性的再合併進第一條然後其他的沒辦法然後其他的其實跟你們院版的第八條是蠻類似的有可能可以把它整合進去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
22938.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
22951.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
好那我想不管是要整合還是要怎麼調整我沒有一定要堅持第八條要這樣放那不過比較是參考台灣現在有零到二是零事情發展學習綱領我們當時在 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
22953.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
22953.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
好 再請林書文 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
22974.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
22987.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
很抱歉我們的同仁其實我個人不同意這個不同意的原因是第一條我在講是立法的宗旨而這一條講的不是立法的宗旨而已這是所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
22990.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
23016.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
這個國際兒童權利公約的精神這個都是所有全部不管居家或機構或是這個國家要發展托育服務的時候該有的價值這個是這個價值要成為國家在訂定政策的時候要引導國家政策的方向所以在這種狀況裡面它是所有托育服務的最上位的價值這個價值要被標示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
23017.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
23041.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
它不是立法的宗旨它是國家政策發展的目標和最上位的托育服務的價值要符合這一些東西這樣子所以我是懇請大家所以說我們是不是應該要要給予國家在政策目標發展上的時候要讓他們有方向而我們直接再脫離法程序的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
23041.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
23066.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
就標示把國家標示的這些方向是不可或缺但唯一我覺得我可能還有一個缺失不足的地方就是可能還有我們沒有想到的可能啦或許還有我們沒有想到的第十款應該或許還有應該要怕掛萬肉依啦當然還有應該要有其他的沒有想到的價值也應該要放進來這樣子好這次要請林業勤委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
23071.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
23097.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我的修正動議裡邊大概有在第八條前面我想問一下衛福部我原本是有寫推服務應以兒童為主體因為這個的主體事實上是孩子然後秉持性別族群文化平等並重那加了這些字我不知道衛福部這邊剛才在說明的時候可不可以針對我這個做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
23101.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
23125.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
第八條林委員你是講你的修正動議我講我的修正動議修正動議在哪裡你的修正動議沒有第八條原版 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
23133.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
23142.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
所以沒有啦原版的第八條你現在把原版第八條來跟現在的陳委員跟林委員的第八、第九一併討論還是怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
23145.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
23168.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
因為我還是回來原來第八條因為剛剛因為淑芬委員跟裴育委員他們原來要堅持要八條那我現在講的是說原本的第八條我的版本原來是有加應該以兒童為主體然後秉持性別族群文化文化平等的並重的原則所以這樣再自言剛剛衛福部沒有特別去做一併討論可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
23170.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
23184.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
沒有,現在就還沒有討論到驗版的跟你的第八條啦現在只有單純在討論陳培宇委員的第八條跟林淑穩的第九條是這樣所以我們還沒有見到驗版的還有柯委員的第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
23185.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
23208.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
主席那我可以請教一下因為剛剛衛福部在我們要討論這個所謂我的版本第八條的時候突然丟了一張紙給我是說我們把相關精神放在這個第一條是嗎不是這第一條就是我們已經通過給各位參考只是給我們參考好謝謝好我現在就請衛福部再來做一個回應好不好看怎麼整合來處理感謝主席一直在說各位我們收穫很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
23210.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
23236.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我建議啦 我建議是不是說 委員如果告訴說有這個建築 我覺得也很好啦 這有一個力量嘛所以我們 那個 就是陳佩玉委員的這個第八條跟林淑貞委員第九條我覺得這個都可以保留 這沒有問題 我們不堅持另外那個林淑貞委員如果說他覺得要以兒童為主體 那個部分如果也需要的話其實事實上也可以在這裡面那個等一下會討論到 等一下會討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
23238.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
23266.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
所以好 所以如果說我也不認同陳培穎的第八條跟林淑媛的第九條那好 那條次就你們去調整喔就確定要整理這一條囉是不是這樣好 OK 好我可不可以請問一下這個理想真的非常好但是因為剛剛有提到說平靜不一定會看這個但是那平靜不看這個可是大部分平靜會看這個因為你是當目標嘛那至少也會問說你離目標有多遠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
23267.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
23290.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
應該還是會落入因為我用醫院評鑑的概念用很多機構評鑑的概念這個很重要這個東西真的非常完美那評鑑的時候會不會那可不可行就是我就簡單回復一下就是說這個部分我們現在目前根據這個理念我們會在評鑑上的一些相關的一些指標上面達成的那個指標上面去做設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
23293.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
23315.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
就是那個屬於那個instrument 那個整個憑量 憑量指標但是這個可以有一個根據但是我先更正一下客觀的指標這個陳委員我先更正一下我說不連結這個的意思是說不直接啦譬如說居家托育服務裡面你叫他要有這個遊戲器材 要有團體探索 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
23316.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
23338.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
阿姨就沒有整群小朋友在那裡探索阿姨也沒有在引導那個空間設計遊戲探索的工具沒有可能沒有辦法那麼多當然有居家服務室的啦但是就沒有辦法跟機構室一樣但是我們不會直接連結是說衛福部到時候評鑑要自己去另外設計一套但是那精神也是要符合這一邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
23339.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
23364.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那不是直接就直接說這幾款每一款去檢驗不是直接拿這幾款來做評鑑啦但是精神上是要朝這個方向那評鑑的內容就交給衛福部去質疑而且因為剛剛次長說是用這個為一個目標但是你設出來的東西有蠻客觀蠻可行的因為事實上不然到時候都不及格這樣子好來請李主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
23366.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
23393.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我覺得院版的第八條跟兩位委員提出來的第八條我覺得還是要去把它分清楚來否則的話會變成院版第八條沒有它也是寫托育服務應該以...底下的內容那這邊是目標那一樣就是說那這些底下第八院版第八條的內容到底會不會能夠回應這些目標還是像淑媛委員剛剛提的就是說我的原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
23394.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
23416.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
提出來第八條事實上是整個整體的政策不是服務是整體的托育政策應該去滿足這個還是說托育服務因為都是托育服務這四個字一個是托育服務應該要尊重孩子發展然後可是內容是這些然後上邊又是目標那這些內容到底要不要去達成這些目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
23417.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
23434.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以就會有我會自己一直喘在這邊所以我想說那衛福部到底如果假設現在的兩邊的八條都要放的時候在解讀法條的時候到底怎麼去理解這兩個我知道我知道我試著這樣處理各位委員聽剛剛陳委員的第八條跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
23436.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
23456.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
零選委員的第九 基本上衛福部是同意啦 競表同意啦但是還是要保留 因為這個條次要挑戰第幾條都等一下 我們整個亂文之後再來做處理啦好 第二件事情是我們等一下進度到是原本的第八條嘛還有其他委員的年月選是第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
23457.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
23473.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
黃景源是多少條 蔡議員第八條李昆整第八條我這樣宣讀大家比較清楚然後王一園第八條邱若元第八條郭益全元第八條鄭天才元第八條王媒慧元第八條然後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
23474.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
23499.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
吳培宇委員第八條,王振旭委員第八條,范委員第八條,然後李彥秀第八條,羅廷偉第八條,然後其他的第九條是在何新竹委員,然後還有陳培文也是第九條,陳淑媛第九條,然後游浩文第九條,那林淑媛也是第十條,我們現在就要討論這一條,那討論這一條的時候,各位再思考一下林委員剛才提醒的這個內容跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
23502.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
23515.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
第八條陳北宇委員還有林書偉所提的第九條怎樣有沒有阻隔的問題有沒有什麼樣的問題再請刑事機關再做一個回應好不好好好現在我們就要處理這一條了好來請務務部來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
23522.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
23544.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
行政版的第八條和其他各委員的版本之間現在大概比較在文字上有比較不一樣的地方第一點是有關吳佩儀委員的版本他有提案要甄列要辨識兒童是否有受虐待不當對待的跡象而且要協助通報目前這個規定的話這樣的一個行為義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
23548.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
23575.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
那在行政院版是把它擺在第48條裡面所以我們會建議這個部分的話也許可以在這個相關的條文來做處理那另外那這個條文也有提到的是要強化托育人員相關的職能那這個部分的話我們也會來做一些相關的處理那其他各位委員的版本總體上來說文字和行政院的版本大體上都還算相當以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
23578.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
23578.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
好 請陳昭次委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
23581.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
23609.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
謝謝 因為一開中名義這一條就是說以尊重兒童發展為前提那我想請教一個因為我們從凱凱案得到了很多的課那我想問這幾宗幾個環節符不符合在所謂的尊重兒童發展為前提譬如說凱凱案裡面的重要一個環節就是本來祖母聘請的周姓保姆照顧那當然這個中間會來法院的判決書有記載我不追溯那凱凱的祖母本來是希望由周姓保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
23610.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
23638.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
來照顧那也希望兒扶能夠補助保母費但是因為資格不符資格不符然後遭拒然後後來就轉介到另外一個保母就發生這樣的悲劇所以也有人認為說如果當初留在那個狀況下就不會發生所以我想問的說這個法條寫托育服應該以尊重兒童發展為前這個都OK的但是這個實際照顧者的變化就是我想知道你的態度那這樣是有尊重兒童發展嗎還是說你要單獨去滿足那個補助資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
23640.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
23668.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
所以就會去遷就這樣 後來造成悲劇 這也是事實啊那怎麼避免所以我覺得那個 這個是活血深深的那個例子喔裡面發生了幾個重點那次長您覺得符合這個兒童發展為前提嗎還是這些東西要做一些修正這樣 謝謝怎麼避免啊 怎麼再避免好 謝謝等一下 還有其他委員要表示意見嗎好 參議委員完之後再換您署委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
23669.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
23686.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
如果我們來看這個院本的第八條我們要談的是服務內容可是剛陳委員在談的我想我還是以尊重兒童發展為前提可是在談那個到底是不是轉介保姆的問題我感覺起來應該不是在這一條要處理吧我請衛福部一併回答謝謝來請林署委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
23690.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
23702.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
不好意思喔我有講這麼多不好意思因為我們的版本其實都希望中央責任要扛多一點比較我們的第十條跟原本第八條的不一樣就是很簡單他講服務內容有五款我們跟他一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
23707.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
23730.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
但中央說前面的一二款這一些相關的實施準則我來訂其他他就不訂了但我們跟他不一樣是全部你中央其實應該把這一些實施的準則全部都訂出來這樣子所以我就不知道說為什麼中央主管機關會認為說其他的他不需要訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
23735.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
23736.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
其他委員要表示意見 王振興委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
23740.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
23768.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
是的確這是原本剛剛在討論的第八條如果要讓他有新的題字我們不知道這樣會怎麼定不過我們如果延伸到現在原版的第八條的話其實他兩者剛剛樂群委員已經講了非常有提醒我們說這兩個其實是有一些連結性就是我們剛剛所討論的那個還沒有定條式的兩個第八條或第九條基本上就是一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
23769.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
23795.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那我們現在討論的這個院版的第八條是在講服務內容事實上它真的是可以連結我們為了要達到那個目標當然我們要有服務內容所以未來在這個現在的第八條就是院版的第八條在書寫的部分可能我們要把它連結進來才能夠知道說為什麼這兩個之間它的連結性還有它的服務內容到底要包括哪一些才能夠有機會去往那個目標前進 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
23797.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
23822.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這個是非常重要的一部分我相信大家感受應該會很類似那我也跟那個署任委員所提到的那到底原版裡面提個五款那在訂細則的時候哪幾款需要放進來那如果依照我們現在的五款裡面一二款看起來是相對比較好訂可是第三四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
23823.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
23831.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
在制定上面如果碰到困難的話預期會有哪一些要面對的問題這可能等一下也麻煩主管機構在這邊說個說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
23834.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
23858.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
來 再請陳昭志委員主席 不過我還在表達 剛剛陳培偉就有點誤會說因為我裡面後來有提到補助你以為我是放在補助但是我那個前提還是以尊重兒童發展為前提因為這個孩子被轉來轉去所以這個東西就是說在你的服務內容裡面你是該以孩子的利益為最優先嘛因為他要適應那麼多家庭嘛那後來就真的就出事了所以這種精神其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
23859.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
23881.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
其實就是說有沒有你在這個第八條裡面有沒有去落實那個精神但是他為什麼會轉來轉去就是因為他不符合那個補助的資格所以他只好而且出不起錢他只好就轉到另外一個地方去然後就出事了所以重點不是說補助當然是一個後來要討論那個很容易討論我覺得補助是容易討論但這個精神是不容易所以我的意思說次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
23883.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
23891.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
這個你們這個服務內容裡面有沒有考慮到這個案子凱凱案子當中有沒有學到一個東西要放在這個裡面我的意思是這樣 謝謝好 林書文第二次發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
23897.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
23917.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
我覺得社交署可能覺得簽名一二款比較重要那其他的不重要那我們現在舉一個例子就是說像這個第四款提供育兒諮詢及家庭支持相關資訊那這個就是需要有一些規範和指引因為家庭和照顧如何銜接也是現在目前的這個照顧的重點那 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
23917.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
23945.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
那三四款裡面訂出這個國家的這個中央的指引然後讓人家去遵循我覺得這些東西其實也是很重要的那我們不知道說為什麼不願意讓他全國有他的一致性然後讓各地方政府或是其他服務的機構人員可以遵循我覺得這個中央訂出來有什麼困難的嗎或者是覺得他不重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
23946.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
23961.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
這些原則準則我覺得是蠻重要的我也要呼應蘇編委員講尤其是第三轉介服務真的要有些準則沒有的話那真的很可怕就是說要中央訂出來我覺得這第八條跟剛才 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
23967.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
23990.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
兩位委員提的那個地方我覺得真的要去討論好否則就等一下要不要看保留如果今天要納入目標的話要真的能夠回應到那個服務內容那另外一個這一條是在講托育服務如果剛剛陳昭芝委員講的那個早上我也有提就是說本來你安置兒童的話本來就不應該在這邊討論應該在其他條裡面去要求說 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
23993.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
24007.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
怎麼可以把一個一般安置跟緊急安置跟收出養安置安置在這個強度沒有這麼強的要做保母管理的因為今天居家托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
24009.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
24025.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
第一年只四例房第二年過去只有一例房我居家托育工作人員一年去看保姆一次然後去24小時全日在那邊的孩子要一個強度這麼低的去做的話那當然一定會出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
24027.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
24047.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
和一個小孩子每一天被帶回家 爸媽都會看他身上有沒有傷 和一個二十四小時一到禮拜天通通都不會回去的 我覺得本來就不應該是在這邊討論 應該是在其他法條裡面去被要求啊 所以早上我才會這麼強烈要求說應該在我們的其他條次裡面去強度要求 而不是在這邊去討論這件事情 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
24051.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
24055.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
這個小孩子是住在後來這個保母家啊還是住在那裡啊 住了好幾個月啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
24065.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
24092.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
沒有這個每人的感受跟這個說法當然這邊講的是托育服務內容要進行的生活照顧啊衛生保健啊要做什麼什麼事情是按照他的發展需求去做什麼事情跟你剛剛講的是在坦白講是沒什麼關係感受不一樣了尊重每個委員對這件大家都關心嘛大家我們的就注重而且這個案子是引發我們把這個法案寫好的一個最大的動機嘛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
24094.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
24110.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
是不是請行政機關來做回應好 感謝各位非常寶貴的意見我相信大家都希望把它做好首先陳道志委員非常感謝您的提示我也是因為我們也檢討了凱凱案所以我們覺得裡面有一些環節 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
24114.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
24126.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
確實有一些我們必須要補足所以才在這個法裡面才把它希望能夠把它更加完善化特別是有關於那個出養必要性還有另外一方面就是說整個一些相關的SOP那 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
24130.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
24140.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
對 我們那邊也會在兒少法那邊會有相關處理所以這個完全同意委員剛剛所說的我們要朝這個方向來有一學習另外一個部分 我想就是剛剛那個蘇分委員剛才所說的我知道那個邏輯上就是說現在說的電子就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
24147.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
24168.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
提高到這陣仗剩下的力量嘛 現在再來就是說這個補分 我知道就是你要刻意中央這邊要standard setting整個一些標準 你要變出行政準則出來 全部都要訂啦這樣啦 這個補分 你要跟他訂一二款的 三四五都不用喔沒關係 這個補分我們是不是 我們也來強化好不好你來照我們的版本通過就可以了因為你的版本就是說 我跟他要訂一二款 其他我不愛做 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
24176.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
24197.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
不然就是我們在立一個托育服務法我們這個法是因為中央不想管這麼多所以我們就不克責他必須要訂出行政準則出來這也會不會太荒謬了吧今天社會高度的期待之下立出來的托育服務法是一個中央不想管那麼多的法律這不會很好笑嗎主席我可以一併再請問嗎跟著問 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
24199.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
24227.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
可以的市長我請問一下因為剛剛鄭旭委員有提一個很重要的問題也許你先回答就是三四五你們在定準則會遇到哪些困難而且剛剛淑芳委員說所謂全國一致性這件事情我稍微調整一下我認為不會有全國一致性有些事情它可以全國一致性可是有些問題它一旦考慮到離島跟偏鄉情況會非常非常不一樣尤其在少子化的現在所以可不可以就你們一併回答定準則可能會有哪些困難我們可以過來想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
24229.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
24257.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
就是3、4、5的部分啦市長請說各位委員報告當初在第8條的時候為什麼會針對這個只針對主要是針對第一款和第二款的部分因為它的範圍涵蓋的比較大清潔、衛生、安全然後第二款包括營養、保健、生活、照顧、學習它基本上它在條文的文字是一個比較廣泛比較大的一個關照的範圍那裡面具體實施的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
24258.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
24279.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
當初在立法研議的時候我們覺得可能在細項的部分需要去做一個比較清楚的描述所以在第二項的部分去訂了一個條文說它是不是要相關的實施原則然後以相關實項的準則由總管主管機關來做一個律定那當時為什麼在針對第三款第四款的部分在考慮的時候某個角度來講因為兒童的兒童生活一般的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
24280.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
24297.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
或者是這個育兒諮詢或家庭他就是一些詢問或者一些事項的提供的時候對於家長和托育者中間的互動的時候以往我們的我們所得當時在討論的時候覺得這個在家長和托育者中間的溝通是相對比較清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
24298.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
24324.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那所以當初沒有刻意去把這個部分再額外再去納進去那主要單純主要只是這樣的一個考慮而已那所以如果說這個等一下在討論的過程中覺得他還是有很多的事項是需要納進準則的部分那我們還是可以我們還是可以到時候就就最後討論有需要納進去的部分我們再做相關的再做相關條文的整理以上說明好那林恩綺委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
24327.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
24341.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
剛剛講這樣聽起來有點倒楣當然也沒道理為什麼尤其是過去一直以來紀錄兒童生活跟成長這個很重要性尤其0到2歲變化非常的大可是一直以來都沒有拍幾張照片就是紀錄嗎也不是啊他的很多身高體重 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
24342.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
24358.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
生活的一些必須要我們要了解的東西甚至在0到2歲變化這麼大的狀態裡邊像頭尾要不要量這些東西都沒有一個準則依據的話就變成說保姆都覺得我拍兩張照片就給你然後你評鑑的時候說要人家去做保姆很常抗拒說我幹嘛要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
24359.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
24387.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
因為又沒有什麼罰則又沒有什麼要求現在既然是入法了以前是在辦法裡面那是不是你們要有些準則讓有依據否則我覺得最後還是苦了居托中心的工作人員每次跟保姆溝通的時候非常難溝通因為他們都不願意按照這樣子做那為什麼你就不乾脆訂一個準則讓人家來依循而不是讓現場承接這樣的一個管理保姆的工作的工作人員相對的事實上是非常辛苦的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
24388.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
24402.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
主席好再請林書仁剛才聽了署長的講法我覺得他可能不覺得說這個不他並不覺得說這個不重要但他覺得這個可能是好像是執行細節上的問題所以他覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
24405.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
24418.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
他沒有想到認為說需要訂到準則但是你們的立法上你第二項這樣子寫會有一個問題就是說除了第一款第二款以外的其他中央都不訂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
24419.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
24439.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
會有這種問題排他性那我們的講法我們的條文是說以上五款我沒有講五款喔就是說前項托育服務內容的實施準則這五款到底有哪些需要準則的由中央你來定所以我沒有排除也沒有強迫說每一款都一定要訂出什麼樣的準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
24441.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
24460.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以就是說你的寫法有排他性我們的寫法是沒有但是呢如果到底是需要或不需要的話其實可以考慮的就是說月井講的記錄兒童生活和成長她拍了兩張照片或者是說你在兒童成長的那個我們不是都有國民健康署都有一個佈置 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
24462.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
24485.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
你的準則定出來可能就是說你的居家服務人員必須要在手冊上必須要寫清楚刻意他責任講得清楚一點那我們剛剛講的就是說從家庭轉介到照顧那如何銜接那銜接的時候要哪些細節然後要進行哪一些程序才能讓他完善的銜接過去這個要不要定準則我覺得這個就很多空間了 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
24486.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
24510.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
所以比較完善的我現在不強迫你說哪一款要哪一款不要哪一些要哪一些不用你們好好的去思考然後跟找團體找專業人員去討論那當然是由我們寫的第二項才是比較好的寫法啦不是說我自己在這裡這個是托盟的版本老實說是第一線的從業人員根據他們所得到的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
24511.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
24534.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那他們覺得這樣子寫出來才是不會有排他性說啊你現在三四五都不用了是這樣子所以是不是包括這個我們的第九條如果次長覺得說他們也同意的話主席剛才林淑芬的第九條是不是也應該是通過然後第十條也是這樣通過然後再去調次自行調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
24536.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
24564.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
來 請回應來OK 好 我覺得這個意見很好啦我覺得這個確實要 我們要做的該做的比較好你不要排他 好啊 這樣好啊你們的版本就排他啊不會啦 委員你們的版本就限縮在第一款第二款而已你們的版本就是說我中央只負責訂第一款第二款你的這個寫法並不是很恰當啊那用我們的我也沒有規定你全部每一款都要怎麼訂啊好 OK 委員這樣我們就遵照委員的意見這樣好不好 好就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
24565.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
24575.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
但是你也不能說改定的沒定啊你也不能夠改定的沒定啊我們都全面性啦要找相關的團體專業人士來討論好 等一下 林業情委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
24581.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
24597.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
剛剛有聽清楚淑芬委員講的可是我要問的是你們確定淑芬委員剛剛講的第九條跟現在你院版第八條都要按照這樣通過的話我剛剛提的未來是不是院版的第八條所有的東西都要滿足你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
24601.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
24618.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
因為我還是認為這兩者是有些競合關係的所以我要先確定那以後因為我相信如果沒事當然沒有什麼事情假設民眾會拿著說你當初我拼錢保姆沒有達到這些目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
24619.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
24637.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
會不會所以我覺得要先釐清如果事實上是原來培育委員跟屬分委員的假設那一條是事實上是是整個整體的國家的整個托育政策方向我沒有意見可是如果現在都是寫四個字不管是第八條都寫托育服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
24637.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
24666.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
那一個是內容一個是目標所以未來這些內容都要回應你的目標如果有一天民眾拿出來說你包括沒有回應到這個目標的時候能不能我們會不會被挑戰所以我覺得先請你們能夠回應答回答清楚我覺得才可以我不要講說通過的話有點擔心說到時候會不會有競合關係這是第一個第二個是我當初提的你們剛還沒回答我就說我認為這個第八條我有提出來說因以兒童為主體 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
24667.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
24691.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
因為我覺得這個托育政策本來主要照顧的就是以兒童為主體然後要秉持性別族群文化平等並重這幾個字所以我有這兩個意見來 新政機關要回應之前要不要再思考一下因為我們現在處理的就是陳培英委員的第八條跟林淑媛的第九條剛剛是講說通過了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
24692.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
24711.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
然後是調適就請你們做調整嘛現在是院版的第八條等其他委員的有九條第四條等這個一個換籌嘛所以你們要怎麼處理就定準則你們自己去設限啦反而委員提出來的版本是沒有所謂的這樣的一個一個一個一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
24712.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
24739.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
去針對哪幾項去做處理反而是給你們更多的空間要去定這幾項的準則該定不定你們自己決定嘛應該是這麼講好但是林燕瓊委員又講說你把陳委員林委員的第八九跟現在院本的第八跟其他委員的第八或九這個有沒有競合的關係你們要思考清楚那你如果現在沒辦法馬上討我沒關係我是可以給你五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
24741.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
24749.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
主席不好意思我就一個就是關心但也許不是非常厲害的觀點來講這裡其中的一個點是因為兩位委員他們談的這個目標沒有人反對但是它裡面是有寫應與家庭跟社區密切配合以達成下列目標所以感覺這九項目標是屬於這三方要一起承擔完成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
24771.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
24796.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
那今天你的立法因為我們重點在托育服務嘛就是照顧者的這一方他要做這些事情就是有一點他把三個東西放在那裡才會有那個好的目標嘛今天因為這邊是這樣寫所以那個競合關係可能就是這樣子啦因為那個是要大家一起來做才做得到的目標啦但是現在你又針對照顧者我們要求我們看要看他做什麼我覺得那個問題是這樣跑出來競合的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
24798.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
24799.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
你太多了好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
25547.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
25550.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
我們第八條還在溝通,我們再讓他們溝通完成,再繼續來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
25618.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
25627.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
好 我們繼續開會剛剛有協調嘛是不是請衛部來做一個宣讀一下看怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
25630.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
25657.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那個剛才跟委員報告我們大概整理了一下吼那有關陳佩玉委員第八條和林淑芬委員第九條的部分吼因為他的文字是一個比較上位的概念吼那我們建議在條次的部分做一個挪移我們會把它挪到往前移到現在第四條的現在行政院版第四條的後面吼就是第四條的 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
25658.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
25670.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
第四條前面 對不起就是插到第四條前面第三條 插到第三條後面第四條前面就是文字都不動就把那個委員版的文字我們把它放到前面去然後就是說把我們的第九條改成第四條的第一項第九條的全部內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
25685.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
25700.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
就變成第四條原來行政院版的第四條順移變成第五條條次就往後順移對啊就是第一項啊第四條的第一項啊其他的你們原來的你們原來就要照我們的也要修正喔那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
25705.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
25735.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
第四條然後原第四條變第五條嗎對原來的第四條就變成第五條喔可以就是整個插到前面多一就是條次插到前面去而已我可不可以建議不知道淑芬委員覺得怎麼樣這邊可不可以寫托育政策或托育服務政策不要托育服務四個字會跟我覺得第八條院版第八條的會變產生漢格一個是內容一個這如果是整個是政策的整個大方向裡面要滿足這些事 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
25737.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
25739.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那是不是可以加政策我們沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
25767.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
25777.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
行政院版的第八條的部分第一項的序文就依照林業勤委員版本的文字我們把它納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
25779.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
25803.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
就是改成依照年月型版本的年月型委員版本的文字就是增加一句就是以兒童為托育服務應以兒童為主體秉持性別族群文化平等並重以尊重兒童發展及及家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
25807.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
25832.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
原則為前提提供符合404信之保育照顧其服務內容如下就是第一項的文字就是修改為引用林業勤委員的版本的文字來 請說陳任培委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
25836.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
25846.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
因為你前面是寫兒童發展嗎後面寫家長什麼家長需求嗎還是家長什麼原則為前提還是你是只尊重兒童及家長以尊重兒童發展還是就是你知道我意思嗎要怎麼調月請月請家長原則家長什麼原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
25869.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
25876.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
這個還是要思考一下原則你就有時候很難掌握了況且你還把它改為需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
25902.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
25913.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
這個對嘛 原則你就會擔心你怎麼不擔心需求這個有一點好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
25917.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
25935.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
然後順便一併報告一下就是在這一條的第二項的部分那就依照剛才委員們討論的結果文字原則上就是依照林淑芬委員版本和陳佩玉委員版本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
25938.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
25953.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
兩委員版本文字不太一樣,我們依照林淑溫委員版本的是不是可以依照林淑溫委員版本的文字所以我第二項就修正為前項托育服務內容之實施準則由中央主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
25965.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
25979.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
如果覺得需求會太大的話 我覺得我也同意啦 因為最主要我是要不要要前面的東西所以把及家長需求拿掉也沒關係 就是你尊重兒童發展維持原來的願板這樣子 為前提這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
25982.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
26005.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
所以這樣的話第一項的文字修修這個我再宣讀一次就是托育服務應以兒童為主體秉持性別族群文化平等並重以尊重兒童發展為前提提供符合404信之保育照顧其服務內容如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
26040.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
26041.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我有在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
26051.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
26079.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
好現在我試著這麼宣告啦這個原有陳培原所提的第八條跟林淑媛所提的第九條然後就這個挪移到這個我們本法的第四條啦對不對應該這樣嘛照他們的條文通過嘛然後這個原有保留的行政院保留的第四條跟其他委員一樣相同的條文一樣持續保留啦順延第五條應該是這樣嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
26082.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
26098.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
然後現在處理的第八條跟其他委員一樣相容的也有第九條也有第八條 個別委員的版本那基本上我現在剛剛署長是講說以這個文字做一些修正用林業勤委員的序文修正然後這邊是行政院版那這邊是用林淑君委員的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
26109.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
26126.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
第八條的序文是以林月琴委員的版本啦?OK然後最後這一項是依照林淑芬委員的這一段?她也有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
26129.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
26153.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
林族委員的還有陳培宇委員的反正跟相關委員一樣的我們都人家提案我們還是要都講一下放進來最後一項就是所謂的前項托育服務內容之實施準則由中央主管定之這個因為看林委員的是這樣然後陳培宇委員是這樣還有其他如果有也沒有宣讀到的再請議事組這邊來做紀錄好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
26158.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
26172.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那第8條我們就依照這樣來修正通過各位有沒有其他意見沒有啦好謝謝那接續我們來審查這個院版的第9條第9條有 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
26175.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
26189.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
黃捷委員、蔡益委員、李昆城委員、郭益勤委員、鄭家宅委員、王美惠委員、吳培委員、黃振旭委員、換言委員、李燕秀委員、羅庭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
26198.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
26208.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
陳培元是第10條然後林淑穩委員是第11條然後還有劉靜雯委員所提的修正動議來然後請行政機關來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
26217.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
26239.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
行政院版第九條的部分目前各委員的提案的版本文字上大概只有稍微一點點些許的不同內容上大概都跟行政院的版本是一致的這個部分我們建議是不是可以就依照行政院的版本的文字的內容這個大概以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
26240.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
26241.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
各位有沒有其他意見那請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
26270.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
26286.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
你就是稍微有增加這幾個字嘛我只是比較好奇啦情勢那時候台灣會叫做情勢我是說我們在寫特殊情勢這不知道有什麼特別的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
26288.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
26307.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
修正動議的說明裡面,我這邊要做一個補充,第一個就是,最主要是參考社會救助法第4條,特殊監獄家庭輔助條例第3條之一第一項,幼照法第7條第10項,以及社會認識制第596號檢視理由書有關立法者基於憲法保障特定對象或社會政策之考量。 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
26308.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
26320.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
符合比例原則之限制換人類能得以法律規範禁止執行特定財務之財產役職第三項規定然後把這個特殊情勢者做這樣的說明好 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
26329.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
26346.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
有支出啦 我知道 請補充跟 找我報告一下大概就是委員建議針的文字 針裂的文字的部分可能就其他透出情勢的事 那個字可能要改成事情的事啦對啊 對那個文字做一個更正那 證證這種部分 我們這邊都 我們都可以配合辦理好 OK 好這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
26358.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
26372.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
好 那是不是就照這個劉建國委員所提的文字修正會通過好 各位有沒有其他意見 沒有好 我們就照這樣通過那接下來繼續來進行處理院版的第10條然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
26374.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
26398.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
多數都是第十條 何欣竹委員 黃景委員 蔡宇委員還有李坤貞委員 還有郭玉璇委員 曾立財委員 王美惠委員陳樹葉委員 還有吳佩儀委員 王振旭委員 范瑩委員還有游皓委員 林恩秀委員 羅庭委員 都是第十條然後這個林玉璇委員是第九條 王玉敏委員是第四十二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
26401.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
26413.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
邱若驊委員是第9條然後陳培委員是第11條林淑穎委員是第12條然後還有一個劉靜委員所提的修正動議好 請行政機關來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
26415.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
26444.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
第十條的部分各委員的版本和行政院的提案內容有相對不一樣的地方主要是大概差在對於這些辦理績效卓著的托育服務的單位行政院版是得於獎勵有很多委員的版本是因於獎勵這個部分的話我們是覺得因為考慮到獎勵的部分其實對於托育人員相關服務的世系會有比較正面的激勵的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
26444.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
26461.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
那我們是可以尊重那我們也接受委員們的意見我們可以把這個因可以把德把它改成因這部分我們可以配合辦理那另外有少數的幾位委員例如像邱若驊委員和陳培鈺委員的提案的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
26462.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
26481.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
有針對這個獎勵的部分還有在要授權去定辦法的部分因為這個是屬於這個等於是授予利益的處分而且是由地方來操作的每個縣市每個縣市自己的這個因地制宜的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
26481.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
26497.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那这个部分我们就建议地方的话因为这类是属于授予利益就不一定要用法规命令可以不用以法规命令的形式来定我们是建议在第十条部分可以不要增订相关的授权的法规命令这个部分那就请委员参考以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
26499.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
26514.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
好 請陳議員完之後再請陳經理委員再請林淑媛再請陳秉立委員好 謝謝我想要做一個 舉一個實例讓大家來思考一下這個問題因為我以這個體育競賽來舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
26520.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
26531.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
在每一年或每兩年我們的這個全國的全運會或遠運會譬如說台東的代表都派出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
26533.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
26558.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
開始各縣市就開始比賽就是說哪個縣市每個縣市政府因為財政的問題所以大家準備的這個獎勵的方式跟獎金就差很多而且差距很大那會不會這樣子的獎勵未來會不會造成一些落差譬如說有些專業人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
26560.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
26578.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
往外跑都不想留在這個獎勵比較差的地方我這個是有一些超前的思考啦那剛剛衛福部這邊表達的也很有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
26578.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
26595.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
好的就是因地制宜授權給各地方但是但是我們總會有遇到這個落差的問題大家心理上其實會有很多的感慨我就提出這樣子如果有一套中央統一 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
26596.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
26619.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
處理的方式我們領選各縣市優良辦理優良的單位好或者是人員這也是一種方式我想這個我是可能大家沒有去思考到就是說各縣市的那種財政的問題好所以我只是提醒好那也尊重大家意見討論討論好好再請陳靜物委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
26622.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
26640.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
因為院版是寫這個得於以獎勵感覺是有點比較消極我希望可以更鼓勵的成分進去就是明定就是會獎勵而且會有獎勵的辦法那這邊是參考立法院法治局的一個評估報告他建議的版本是 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
26642.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
26654.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
如何來辦理屬績效族會議因如何辦理應該增訂第二項規定得由直轄縣市主管機關訂定相關獎勵辦法以資明確可以嗎好謝謝再請陳比武委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
26666.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
26695.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
好 谢谢主席我自己是有提一个附带决议不过我觉得有很多细致的事情也想要拜托卫福部陪我们一起想一想就是我希望有那个鼓励的部分是希望还有奖励的部分因为确实我们遇到有状况的这些托育人员或是保姆我们当然希望有相关惩罚的机制确保孩子们的权益可是在对于做得好的这些人我们可不可以有相关的奖励机制不过因为刚刚月勤委员用第一线的实务提醒我 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
26696.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
26721.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
就是说会不会有不当提报好的我举个例子好了例如说淑芬委员是大家都很熟的保姆然后我是评审委员我可能过去跟你关系良好那反正如果现在有这个奖励机制那我就提报你可是实际上我可能一年可以去看你的这个次数可能就一次或两次这样但你在我去看你的时候你就故意做得很好或者是你有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
26723.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
26743.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
狀況其實我平常是不知道的可是我們又希望有獎勵機制如何把這個獎勵機制真的可以做到對做到好我覺得實務上是有相關困難那所以雖然我有這個附帶決議的提案但是我還是希望我們有沒有機會可以就實務面來討論在相關獎勵機制上我們到底還可以做些什麼事情以上謝謝好再請林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
26748.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
26768.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
我覺得獎勵都是好事可是在過去我們的實務裡邊的確曾經發生過因為被評為優等結果是惡劣的狀態發生過那因為我早上就提過居托中心本來這個承辦居托中心的就稱之不齊甚至過去有些縣市辦優質保姆的時候我們去當評選委員就發現說他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
26771.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
26800.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
五個杯子啊五個杯子啊你就明明知道他超收可是重點是那為什麼居托中心會推薦出來說要作為優質保姆評選的人選因為我覺得本來就看的次數不多所以我覺得人員的獎勵我覺得要問你們如果說培育委員這樣建議有沒有更好的方法去減少掉可能存在的問題否則會讓民眾尤其是家長信心大崩盤是說優的怎麼會變成事實上他是惡虐那就會讓人家有所擔憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
26801.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
26813.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
所以如果要獎勵人員的話你們有沒有比較多的一個好的考量然後我覺得才可以去做這樣子的一個按照培育委員列的那個靈動來去做以上來 請林淑慧委員我覺得第一現場的人看的可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
26824.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
26842.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
想得比較仔細啦但對我們來講就是說寫成英語獎勵的狀況就是說你知道現在因為耍子的話那大家對於這個願意幫我們照顧小孩然後因為你知道是托育人員的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
26843.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
26859.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
待遇老實說也不但勞動條件真的是很辛苦很辛苦那如果這種狀況裡面做得好的我們給他獎勵我覺得本來是想說應該的應該在少子化國安危機這麼嚴重的時候盡量正向的去給他們給獎勵這樣子但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
26863.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
26885.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
月景講的那個東西並不是不可能發生可是那個不是這個獎不獎勵的問題了因為每個人都會改變你現在都完全沒問題的人你怎麼知道三五年了他會不會轉性或是突然怎麼樣家庭有變故整個人的個性不一樣然後他從一個優良的變成一個恐怖的保姆的這種東西本來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
26889.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
26909.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
本來就是很難去因為人不是生產一個產品那規格化標準化永遠都不會變的所以當然不要講優良保姆就是說優良的廠商也有可能會變然後優良的什麼其實每個人都會變優良的立委也會變 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
26911.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
26932.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
對啊我要說明我不是反對也可能啦 不是會啦不知道 抱歉我剛剛講錯了不是一定會變優良的立委也可能會變化也可能啦我的意思是說那個機制要處理好來因為我剛剛提的那個事實上是時間很接近不是兩三年後才發生說它被評為優等 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
26934.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
26945.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
只是說 我說評選的他的這個人到底狀況是怎樣所以我反而覺得整個的評選的方法這些東西要很確保才不會到時候發生我剛剛講的那種發生這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
26949.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
26971.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
這個聽起來都很像執行面的問題那如果原則上精神上我們支持這個方向那未來在執行面怎麼樣防弊怎麼樣讓這個徵選制度還有評選要不要利益迴避利益迴避應遵循哪些東西就交給行政部門自行去授權給他們自己去制定那如果這個方向大家確定了那我們就先通過這樣子OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
26978.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
26990.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
來 什麼方向要不要補充說明一下來 署長 請把方向講清楚剛剛大家的意見彙整之後是什麼方向麻煩請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
26996.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
27013.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
就是 我們就是朝向鼓勵嘛 鼓勵這個方向剛剛委員有說一些執行面上面來說 確實你剛才講的那個 陳議員有講的就是城鄉差距的部分嘛我們在執行面的部分 我們也來考慮這個因素啦 這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
27023.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
27043.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
這個我們就會綜合考量,但是朝向我們鼓勵的方向,好不好?好,感謝,謝謝好,我們第四條來處理啦,就是依照有相關委員的提案,就是得改為因各位也應該沒有其他意見啦,那我們就照這樣通過然後這邊有陳培偉的互代決議,我請醫師組來做宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
27052.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
27068.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
附帶決議兒童托育服務法草案第十條規定托育服務辦理績效著住者直轄市縣市主管機關得予以獎勵鑑於現行民眾已可與衛生福利部社會及家庭屬之 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
27068.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
27092.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
托育媒合平台網站查詢到合法持有證照之居家托育人員名單原請衛生福利部建立優良托育服務人員之獎勵機制時可將優良未違規之居家托育人員名單登在於托育媒合平台網站以利家長查詢亦可達到公開表彰優良人員之目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
27092.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
27105.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
提案人委員陳培余、連署人委員林淑芬、黃振旭、黃秀芳宣讀完畢好,針對陳培余委員所提的附帶區域,行政機關有沒有要表示意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
27107.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
27135.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
謝謝委員的提議有關在這個媒合平台去做相關的資料登載的部分原則上行政部門會積極來推動唯一只有一個比較小的部分跟委員有一個小的請求就是說委員的提案動議裡面有一個叫做未違規一般我們大概會優良的我們會把它公布出來第二是有違規的會公告出來未違規我們會建議是不是可以刪掉謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
27137.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
27160.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
好 那陳培永的修正都議就把剛剛那個字眼刪掉好 二維規三個字修正修掉 修正完之後通過各位有沒有其他意見啦沒有 我們回來接一句 照修正完後通過剛剛第十條我還是重新宣告一下啦我看到林淑媛委員也是陰嘛然後這個我這邊所提的修正都議也是陰那我們就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
27161.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
27185.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
有提應的部分來做這樣的條文的文字來做通過謝謝好接下來我們繼續來處理委員王一鳴第48條委員陳培宇第12條那委員林淑芬第13條還有委員林淑芬的修正動議來請行政機關來做先做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
27186.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
27207.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
有關王委員陳委員和林委員的部分這個大體上來說現在在我們有查閱一下在現行的幼照法裡面大概也有類似的規範那主要是家長在這個家長或者是家長或者監護人的時候有跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
27207.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
27228.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
這個做托育的或者是這個照顧人中間有一些協力的一些要配合的事項那在這邊的話原則上我們這個我們可以我們覺得在這邊要去納進來我們在文字上面我們是可以支持的那我們建議的文字那我們現在有有一個大概建議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
27229.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
27249.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
我們建議如果要列的話這個是不是可以就是綜合一下各委員的版本那大概就是要履行的義務有以下這幾項第一個是依照托育書面契約的規定要來繳費第二個是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
27258.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
27284.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
現在不是要先討論我們的條文的第13條?行政院有版本嗎?行政院沒有版本對阿,那個條文跟我們的都完全不一樣那個衛福部有提出建議的條文在最左邊啦在這一本的最左邊不是啊,建議的條文他沒有這一本,他有建議條文阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
27287.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
27304.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
各位委員可以參考,我們有整理一個發給各位委員的一個建議條文的版本應該在第四頁,第四章有發給各位委員,建議條文看一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
27311.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
27318.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
早上有提供給各位議員的那目前是各位看一下條文我們也提供一份在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
27324.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
27347.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
因為這個是委員版的主要是委員版條文我們現在還沒有列條次請各位委員參閱我們現在建議的文字就如同現在有投影在上面我們建議的文字是兒童之法定代理人或實際照顧兒童之人應履行下列義務第一款依托育書面契約規定繳費 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
27349.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
27377.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
二 參加托育機構因其兒童特殊需要舉辦之個案研討或相關活動三 參加托育機構舉辦之親職活動四 告知兒童特殊身心狀況必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料並與居家托育人員或托育機構共同協力改善兒童之身心健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
27379.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
27387.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
好陳培遠跟林書偉所提的版本是相同的現在衛福部這麼建立兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
27388.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
27414.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
好那謝謝主席那我先說我看起來衛福部覺得可以放進來那調色我們等一下再說不過衛福部把我們建議關於如果居多人員發現或是家長發現孩子沒有特殊身心狀況的時候我們希望由相關主管機關提供資源協助主要是因為其實這幾年在很多早聊的狀況不管是量能的問題或者是家長啊法定代理人有沒有發現有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
27417.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
27444.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
責任感去面對這個狀況或者是他有沒有能力他們能量去應對這個狀況所以我們才會提出希望應主動提供資源但是我猜想在實務現場的困境就是說這些主管機關如何對接到家長法定代理人可能會有困難所以但是我們站在照顧兒少的立場我們還是希望這個可能性所以也許請衛福部給我們建議好以上謝謝好再請提案委員林淑溫來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
27446.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
27466.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
我覺得很荒謬耶我覺得看起來好像把我們第一項全放進去了可是我覺得很荒謬因為我們多了這一條在講的是說各級主管機關對於這一類的特殊幼兒應該要主動提供資源給這些幼兒兒童的幼兒的法定代理人或是實際照顧人我們重點是第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
27470.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
27496.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
就是說雖然法定代理人或是實際照顧兒童的人要履行第一項的義務但是各級主管機關都有前項第四款兒童的法定代理人或者是實際照顧的人應該主動提供資源協助這個是最核心啦這個是我們的條文的最核心然後再來講說那為什麼回到第一項為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
27497.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
27520.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
你們同意我要講第一線的人請我告訴你們的為什麼兒童的法定代理人或是實際照顧的人要履行這一些義務其實是有原因的但其實我先講第三款我個人覺得說我這樣的強度會不會太高了第三款對家長來講強度會不會太高了或者是說對於階級 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
27523.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
27550.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
積極能力可能比較有問題的人所以我自己對我自己的第三款覺得我是覺得應該是盡量鼓勵啦然後第三款我自己也有一點點質疑 質疑啦 質疑那第四款是要告訴大家就是說很多兒童有特殊的身心狀況但是有家長不敢老實的說出來因為怕說出來以後保母不願意幫你帶孩子甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
27552.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
27576.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
機構也不願意幫你帶孩子在這種狀況裡面我們才要扣合到第二項政府要給予協助那這種狀況不說出來會有什麼影響有時候事情很嚴重的喔當你的孩子有癲癇你不告訴他鄉鄉發作去的保姆不可以歡迎喔或者是在機構裡面第一線的從業人員他們有一個經驗說其實女孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
27580.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
27603.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
來一直哭 你不順利一直哭哭不哭他會斷氣這是第一線的人的刺激經驗他會斷氣耶 他沒辦法呼吸他只要生氣就會哭一哭絕對哭不停 哭到他斷氣老是怕死啊但是大家開始的時候 家長沒跟他們說耶他們知道了以後說請問你這個孩子你要繼續哭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
27606.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
27626.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
你這個孩子 你知道啊 家長也跟你說啊你要繼續照顧嗎所以在這種狀況裡面家長跟這個托育服務機構到底要怎麼樣協調也不是只有他們雙方的事所以我們在覺得說那這個各級主管機關面臨這種狀況要怎麼主動提供資源來協助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
27632.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
27644.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以這一條看起來好像克折於這個家長要有責任你的兒童 這個都是特殊兒童居多你的兒童有特殊狀況你要怎麼樣的狀況 如果要跟你討論你兒子的狀況 你要來開花喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
27649.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
27674.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
但是實際是真的,政府真的遇到特殊兒童的狀況你政府的資源、協助要進來,這個才是重點我算家屬,你會改變版本看看,都把核心重點,每一條都刪除我覺得今天法律從早上審到現在,你就是不想做那麼多,給我就是這種觀感 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
27676.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
27694.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
我提效皆非你看老趙尼委員第一項的版本全部納入了成效了你完全沒有納入這種孩子需要政府來倒三天這種的服務機構保姆這種的家長需要政府伸出援手 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
27695.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
27711.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
所以我們才要在法律裡面 刻意政府要有這樣的資源協助是這樣子所以你如果要放下去 你覺得我們說的是對的 也需要的你應該把第二項放進來是這樣子才對好 這群孩子 你就放得好來 先進去請委員好就這樣放好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
27725.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
27747.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
我覺得如果是第三或是二跟三可能要考慮因為這個是因沒有去考慮到家長到底如果他工作上的需求他沒辦法參加這個因會不會變成我覺得一跟四是一定有必要性因為現在很多時候有時候保姆會收不到錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
27748.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
27768.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
他應該依書面契約規定來做繳費那的確剛剛淑芬委員提的真的實務現場很多家長他可能醫護人員他就覺得喔還好啊屏息症也沒怎麼樣可是真的會把保母或者是托孕中心的托育人員嚇壞了因為他根本沒有料想到孩子突然沒有呼吸 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
27769.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
27783.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
的這樣的狀態 或者是有先天性心臟病可是二跟三強度這麼強 但我知道說因為如果是因為機構已經辦了這個你的孩子特殊需要我覺得如果是為了他自己本身的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
27784.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
27803.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
開的個案研討會可以可是相關活動我覺得太大那到時候家長沒辦法那他會不會覺得說你應該要來參加這個可能會有一個他工作上沒辦法可是3一樣也是有這樣的問題3他沒有放棄但是我請求大家支持我們就是說3如果把它強度變成說盡量參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
27805.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
27827.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
盡量參加那二的話這個的確就是for你的孩子你自己的孩子有特殊需要老師認為要個案研討了那也一定要來參加啦就是說一個特殊兒童你知道有時候就是說你要早一點來一起討論我們要給予他什麼樣的支持資源比如說像發展遲緩那 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
27830.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
27854.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
發展池丸可能老師就發現了家長不一定有能力發現那老師發現了要一起來討論家長一定要來參加是不是這樣子啦至少要這樣子第二款這個個案研討針對你自己的孩子要來參加那第三款也留著就是說盡量要來參加我知道這個東西的確樣態很多所以盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
27855.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
27863.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
比較像是道德上希望但是就是說最重點是第二項第二項一定要放進去來請王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
27870.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
27891.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
也聽了孫委員的這些相關的說明比較清楚知道現在新增的或是非委員的第12條跟孫委員的第13條的具體內容的要求是這樣那針對於第二款第三款我覺得要參加的確會有一些困境比如說他本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
27892.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
27914.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
就有很多家庭要處理的事情那如果跟他不一定那麼相關我們就要求他參加的確是有他的困難所以如果在第二款跟第三款尤其是第三款前面加一個得得參加的話就表示可以參加也可以不參加這樣的這個處理模式我不知道等一下也許還可以再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
27917.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
27937.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
再來就是第二項各級主管機關應該對前項第四款兒童的確是有一些特殊身心狀況之下很希望能夠讓照顧者就是這些人員能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
27938.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
27960.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
掌握到個別狀況的特殊需求之下應該有更好的資源或者是有需要家長配合的地方這邊我比較擔心就是說因為最後寫就是需要透過主管機關應主動的提供資源來協助那怎麼樣才能夠叫做主動就是說主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
27961.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
27975.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
當他面臨這樣的狀況的時候他什麼情形下他才能夠掌握到主動這樣的資源的發動這個我想可能還要再確認一下以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
27977.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
28004.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
來再請林淑媛抱歉各位同仁就是說剛剛在討論的時候本來想說參加這個個案研討或相關活動但相關活動這裡還是指涉到針對這一個個案那如果叫他說要參加找療的活動或找療的評估活動那就是相關活動那可能就不是個案研討找療的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
28010.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
28038.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
像早療就是活動所以但是第二款講的就是自己的孩子的啦不是全校辦的活動或是班級辦的活動就是for你自己的孩子所以我們立法說明欄如果講清楚的話你的孩子是一個特殊兒童或有特殊需要的那為這個孩子一起來討論要怎麼要照顧或者是說要一個早療計畫的話那這些活動你應該都要來參加是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
28040.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
28048.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
如果是特殊兒童我想沒有這種家長不參與全部都叫托育機構承擔起全部的責任的啦是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
28056.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
28083.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
來 請第三項的話就是盡量參加因為如果不是否個案的話不是為自己的孩子我覺得可不可以建議就寫參加托育機構因其兒童之因為這樣子是我自己的小兒子之特殊需要所辦理不要舉辦 我覺得感恩大家大型的活動舉辦理的個案會議不要研討會有點比較是在那種大型研討會那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
28084.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
28105.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
所以個案會議是要商討我的孩子我覺得相關活動我認為還是要拿掉啦為什麼因為我覺得最主要是一對一的去找專家來討論你說活動像找療活動這些東西因為家長如果他確認他孩子有特殊需求本來其他單位就會辦找療活動現在反而是他在這邊一定要強迫他來跟教保人員去討論他孩子的狀況跟專業人員一起討論才能夠去處理我覺得後續活動要不要參加我不認為那反而 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
28113.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
28138.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
那可是我覺得最難的會是三三因為前面已經因了可是三又說要參加你說盡量參加應盡量參加那也我不知道所有委員的想法是什麼否則的話就很難因為前面已經講了應了第三款我覺得可以討論啦但是就是說第一項一開始這些這些義務都是應喔應喔不是得喔對啦應把第三項齁放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
28139.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
28162.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
後邊有一點比較宣誓心意要放的話不要放在這邊可以看怎麼調整我覺得第三款啦第三款我是覺得可以看怎麼調整我個人是沒有對啦因為我知道很多家庭有很多客觀的條件上不見得每項每次都可以參加啦如果是一個不是針對這個那個好 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
28165.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
28179.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
但是第二款第二款就是說除了研討以外還會有相關的什麼如果不是活動那還會有相關的什麼是不是讓我們也來想一想但基本上就是說以上這些都是因 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
28181.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
28203.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
應履行的義務然後第一款第二款的方向大家都確認然後第四款也都確認那第三款再來討論但第二項一定要留著那主動的這個概念其實是很難界定的所以我也可以說那應提供資源協助好再請陳培委員來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
28209.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
28235.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我想回到第三款參加托育機構舉辦之輕職活動我當然知道有所謂文化階級不利的家庭確實要因參加是有困難的可是我也想要提醒大家我們之前在處理非常多家庭教育中心或者是中正教育司的家庭教育活動我們進到小學階段來看很多家長主席你站起來是我不能講話嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
28236.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
28262.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
我想说未还的规矩我不懂很多老师其实会告诉我们很多孩子们小时候的问题如果没有及早发现及早解决其实进了小学之后已经六岁七岁很多状况是难以调整那我们现在又回来要谈家庭教育是重要的话可不可以第三款不要拔掉但是因为前提是阴嘛我们可不可以有一个比较 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
28264.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
28288.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
比較友善的寫法就是孩子就是自己孩子的情況然後參加相關親子活動也就是說我們不要把這裡就把親子活動做退讓的啦因為很多現場的老師對於家長們自己有各種可能進修學習的方法這件事情上現在老師的困境很大那我們現在在這個法如果這樣寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
28289.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
28318.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
我擔心會影響到我們後續在做很多親子家庭教育活動的時候因為說實話現在也有很多線上的或者是學校學校可能跟地方教育局處配合用一次性的經費辦一些親子日但可能也就完成了所謂親子活動那我完全理解我自己就是一個文化不利的家庭長大的小孩我爸爸從來也就沒有參加過親子活動所以我可以理解文化不利的困境但精神上我們如何兼顧那個可能性好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
28319.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
28344.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
好再請林月琴委員反正就來處理這條如果是宣誓性異議當然沒有太大問題可是如果定嬰我也反過來問是說有沒有法則或要怎麼樣去處理如果他不參加我違反你這個法律會怎麼樣我先把孩子送到保母家然後拘托中心要我說要來上或托嬰中心說要我說參加活動如果我不參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
28345.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
28352.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
那會有什麼樣的這個因為還就如果宣誓信義我同意可是用陰的話就是說我一定要參加不參加會怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
28355.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
28378.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
甚至我不參與像剛剛講特殊聲音狀況我要他提供我提供這樣我不知道說列的時候有沒有後面有搭配的罰則否則沒有罰則的話除非訂到那個托育契約那托育契約真的那也一樣要問有沒有罰則否則的話這個訂就真的是宣誓心音可是我們用的強度是音對 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
28383.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
28396.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
因為我們的版本是沒有罰則但是可以討論如果要把它強度很強的話那就是必須要訂罰則那我們沒有訂罰則的話當然是宣示性是比較大但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
28398.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
28421.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
對 可以用陰啊 因為如果沒有法則的話這個雖然我沒有提案 但是我只很好奇我想跟社家屬也確認一下就是說其實我們現在在0到20歲的時候小朋友不一定那個時候可能都還沒有鑑定嘛因為我們之前講特殊需要的時候那這個特殊需要在沒有鑑定可能都還沒有鑑定的時候那實務上要怎麼去進行這個所謂的相關的個案會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
28423.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
28443.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
因為通常在小學通常很多時候都是已經鑑定出來會產生這些相關的嘛個案會議但如果他沒有被鑑定出來的時候這邊講到特殊需求要如何產生個案會議這時候我想要釐清的部分可以請社家屬說明一下嗎好 請次長綜合回覆好 抱歉 我先簡單講一句話剛才那個委員有這麼關心就是說第二項嘛好啦 這個部分我是覺得 其實老實說我們目前的那個照料其實原則上我們應該都會進行啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
28451.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
28472.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
有些人如果不放心沒關係我們就放進來這個我們也儘表同意沒關係但是你現在說因主動提供是不是可以授權我們有一個文字上面來體現這個精神這樣好不好這第二項我們大概就是我們把它放進來沒問題其他第二項就是說第二款第三款要因或怎麼樣我們也尊重大家第三個蔣麗玲委員剛才說的我請署長來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
28478.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
28497.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
張委員剛才提到的這個部分其實現在如果是有可能有疑似發展遲緩的部分那他其實他不會有年齡的問題他即使是很早期他就可以進行通報那一通報之後就可以開始去做導入後面的有關去做鑑定或者是等等相關的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
28497.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
28514.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
所以這個這樣的如果他比較在比較早期就發現的話其實他在0到2歲他很可能就已經可以開始進入藻寮的相關的服務了我的問題就是說我們這次的特殊需要是已經鑑定的還是疑似的都算是認定在特殊需要上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
28514.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
28529.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
對他有需要的部分他就可以他就提早的來通報因為我想那個特殊需要的這個四個字兒童制特殊需要的話我覺得你們可能是要把它定很明定的很清楚是說今天他還沒有完成鑑定但是我們疑似你們懂我的意思嗎是是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
28530.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
28531.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
有關於就是說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
28549.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
28568.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
要求建議要就是說那個退役機構所舉辦的這個相關親子活動這個部分我再補充一下因為其實有很多的這個單親單親的家庭然後那 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
28570.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
28592.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
那我自己本身過來那周遭的那個人力的資源有時候未必那麼健全的時候所以我覺得這個除了鼓勵之外大家在討論那個法則那我就覺得可能有時候真的在一些很特殊的狀況的時候這些人可能就很倒霉了就 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
28594.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
28621.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
對我是說因為剛剛有委員就是說宣誓性的條文那因為沒有沒有罰則我只是就是說這個應該不應該是要有罰則的部分對那還有就是說確實在小孩子早期有很多狀況我們其實家長是不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
28622.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
28650.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
那後來發現之後其實還有一段掙扎的時間因為要不要去拿那個手冊好所以這個東西然後再來就是說我要去面對這件事情我很怕講了學校不收我了這個其實都是過去我個人實際面臨到的問題所以這個可能這個部分再請大家多琢磨要多注意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
28653.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
28662.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
那你們要怎麼處理行政機關?要現在馬上修?修一修然後給...你插吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
28663.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
28684.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
主席我可以我剛自己都說了我自己是來自文化不利的家庭我可以理解舉辦親子活動我應參加確實對家長是很大的壓力我可以拿掉但是只是說我們如何在協助家長陪伴孩子成長的過程當中也有不斷增能的可能然後也知道說政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
28684.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
28702.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
其實各縣市政府在衛福部的支持之下預算協助支持之下各地方政府現在都很會辦很多親子講座那個錢絕對有很大一部分是來自中央政府那我也只是想要在這個議題上希望我們中央政府持續有角色在協助家長進行所謂的家長增能這一塊這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
28703.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
28729.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
那但是又不要造成壓力也不要有罰則原則上宣誓性的做法或者是也給第一線的保育人員包含提到我剛說的孩子們進了小學之後國中很多老師也都希望家長是持續跟著孩子一起成長我覺得這件事情非常非常重要這樣好 至於怎麼寫也許你們再給我們意見 謝謝那先請林玉琴委員完之後再請林淑媛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
28731.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
28758.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
我覺得整部法原來原則上是去規範托育服務中心或托育中心或者互助室那或居家托育服務人員現在突然又轉個彎要去規範家長就這一條去規範家長我覺得主體上對我來講有點亂掉所以我才會一直講說沒有發展可是如果說今天主體還是回到事實上是機構或居家托育服務中心要去辦理這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
28759.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
28780.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
然後呢鼓勵家長參加我說我覺得這宣誓心意講因最後你又對他沒有辦法處罰那可是這原本的主體我說本來就是針對於拘托中心的像保姆或拘托服務中心或者是托孕托育服務機構那可是現在又怎麼繞五彎回來是家長的時候對我來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
28782.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
28802.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
好像只有這一條是對家長那又沒有辦法有強度我也不知道最後如果沒有這樣做到底會怎麼樣那黨人是要不要去規範說今天拘托中心也好托嬰中心也好都要去做這件事情我覺得會不會比較是清楚他本來他工作上要去涵蓋這部分以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
28803.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
28817.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
來請林書惠園講完之後我們就處理了各位很抱歉我再多講一點就是說托育服務的主體當然是托育員員然後被托育的幼兒那當然最重要當然還有家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
28818.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
28845.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
所以這三個主體其實是確定的我們主要的規範都是在於提供托育服務的人或者是機構要克制他要有什麼樣的約束或者是要求他做什麼托育服務或是國家政策怎麼訂但是這一題為什麼要訂這個是我就跟你講因為第一線的從業人員他們經常感到挫折或是經常遇到 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
28846.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
28869.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
他們覺得很困擾的事情那所以才說托育的三個主體裡面家長也應該要課以他一些責任那在這個責任裡面我們不能強度管得太多所以我們強度沒有很高到設了一個罰則但是這個宣示這個家長也要involve到這個托育服務裡面來這個是責任因為孩子是家長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
28870.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
28883.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
那責任要承擔到哪些當然就是你要繳錢或是你有這裡只限定在這個特殊兒童 兒童特殊需求那兒童特殊需求的狀況我們當然也指示到有疑似的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
28885.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
28901.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
因為0到2歲你說除非是先天的疾病的否則0到2歲不容易說馬上就知道說他是不是有馬上就特殊兒童的鑑定出來很難啦所以我們所謂特殊兒童的需求當然是包含疑似的 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
28902.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
28926.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
特殊需求有疑似有障礙的或疑似有遲緩的還有當然就是已經確定的有障礙的或已經確定有遲緩的所以全部都包含在這個裡面那家長要告知為什麼要講你要告知你沒有告知的話保姆真的不知道怎麼應變家長很多人真的不告知因為怕人家沒要告你的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
28927.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
28949.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
所以在這部法律裡面為什麼要特別強調這個就是你沒有克折於他有告知的責任的話你就要靠靠到要斷氣了真的會怕死人啊還是說你有癲癇,你和保姆保姆沒準備,他也不知道我們的急救數裡面有包含癲癇嗎我們當保姆不是都要訓練嗎資格訓練裡面有包含癲癇怎麼處理嗎急救數有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
28955.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
28979.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
對不對啊所以只有告知的這個義務然後你的孩子真的有疑似有這個特殊的發展上的遲緩那當然要開一個這個研討那這個研討可能不是大家所界定的說這麼嚴謹的研討會那是但到底是要到大家家長要有責任進來這樣子所以我們強度 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
28980.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
29002.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
是講了家長的責任但強度也沒有這麼的高強度到要處分了但是我們這裡最核心我一開始就講了其實要請政府要提供資源來協助這個才是我們的重點兒童特殊需求政府提供資源進來才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
29010.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
29027.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
如果剛剛蘇芬委員這樣講的話我覺得1跟4的確家長很重要的責任反而要把它訂出來之後我覺得搭配法則2跟3真的沒有必要性否則你現在訂了1又覺得說法律上訂了1又不要做可是你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
29028.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
29055.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
是坦白講對孩子的身心可能產生的傷害非常大如果不知道今天孩子有丙烯症或的他有氣喘或的有先天性心臟病這是過去實務狀況有發生過的這樣都不告知就發生事情的時候讓托孕中心或是保母呢疲於奔命那有時候如果能搶救回來當然OK如果沒有搶救回來的話事實上有可能孩子可能喪失性命我覺得那個嚴重性非常的大反而還有一個要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
29056.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
29084.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
應該要給我費用結果他不給反正我覺得一跟四強度上要不要更強如果今天等一下保留的話我也覺得說一跟四我覺得衛福部要去考慮這個對孩子的安全性有嚴重的尤其是四那一呢事實上本來就應該繳費可是二三要不要強度到一我認為是應該是不需要到這樣否則訂了一個宣誓心意又講說一可是又做不到又沒有搭配罰則那就訂了也沒有什麼意義在以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
29086.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
29114.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
好 再請林淑媛我可以先提一下嗎這是這樣啦 因為原本議辦沒有這個條文當然兩位委員跟三位委員提出這個條文我不知道就是議辦原本在思考的時候為什麼沒有把這個條文納進來這個條文是原本沒有的嘛 對不對對啊 對那你們就必須要去跟委員說明清楚說為什麼當時沒有把這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
29117.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
29131.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
放在這次的草案裡面那現在兩個委員當然是站在比較比較針對兒童式法定代理人的相關實際應該去履行的義務特別再去把它規範出來嘛那我們在規範裡面的內容到底會不會為的不足還是怎麼樣這個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
29135.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
29164.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
我是不是給各位一個五分鐘然後再溝通一下這樣好不好讓我講完啦你聽完啦你放心不然你要說再說我們的意思是說其實脫盟還有這些社團這些團體他為什麼要訂這樣的一個條文其實說雖然沒有法則但是專業的人員從業的人員其實可以根據這一個條然後利用這一個條文然後就跟家長說這個法律規定的你一定要來這樣子然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
29165.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
29184.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
有些家長就想 法律有規定的時候他就覺得好吧 那我就去吧其實有一種鼓勵的屬性 但也有一種其實就是讓讓這些第一線的人比較好說服家長來參加啦也有這樣子的狀況那至於說其他的強度要不要發責我是尊重大家但是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
29186.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
29207.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
這種事情原本想沒得到但屬於說第一線的人他們就是遇到這種困擾而我們知道了然後還不納進來還不一併放到這個托育服務法裡面來談的話我覺得才是真正的違德不足不是啊 因為你們的開宗明義叫做因履行下列義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
29209.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
29226.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
這個是你們把把這個英旅行預約券灌上去嘛現在就是針對當然你沒有寫罰則不過沒有寫罰則就在針對第幾款就已經大家意見相處到這種程度了嘛所以我才建議就是休息幾分鐘讓你們再去討論一下嘛是這樣嘛 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
29806.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
29810.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
好 我們繼續開會經過溝通 結果你知道我們大概原則上就是現在現場沒有總召召委 召委 抱歉 召委 抱歉你累了嗎來 請說明感謝召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
29830.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
29851.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
跟郭委員報告 剛才跟捷運委員說明初步看起來比較傾向於第一款和第四款對於家長要苛責的強度會比較高二三款的話比較有討論的空間沒有啦 第二款也要啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
29852.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
29880.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
對不起我講完就是說這幾個部分的話我們會根據這個強度的部分我們回去會把文字再做一個整理那可能在我們整理完再跟各位委員來做一個說明那剛才委員是建議說我們是不是就根據這樣的一個方向我們回去再做一個調文字再重新做一些整理啦好原則上就是保留啦好不好等他們文字修正完之後提供給提案委員做參考你們同意之後我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
29886.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
29892.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
請說 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
29894.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
29920.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
好我盡量再講一個啦就是說這個我們訂這個行政院沒有的這個條例其實有一個很重要的精神在於說讓家長在整個托育服務的關係當中我們不是一個服務去買一個服務而已我們家長的責任也不是一個消費者而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
29920.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
29945.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
其實讓家長在這個托育服務的關係當中有一個刻意他應盡的義務其實就是托育服務的主體三者的一環三個角色就是幼兒家長還有服務的提供者這樣子在這個關係裡面我們有應盡的義務不是只是一個服務的買賣或者買一個服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
29950.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
29976.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
他也是一个主体这样子那为什么这样立法是因为儿照法幼照法里面幼儿教育及照顾法的第41条里面有写哦父母或监护人应该履行下列义务第一一教保服务契约规定缴费二参加教保服务机构因其幼儿特殊需要所举办的个案研讨会或相关活动 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
29978.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
30005.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
三 參加教保服務機構所舉辦的親職活動四 告知幼兒特殊身心健康狀況必要時並提供相關健康狀況資料並與教保服務機構協力改善幼兒的身心狀況各級主管機關對有錢向第四款幼兒的父母或監護人應主動提供資源協助之這個是教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
30006.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
30027.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
所主管的幼照法第41條完全幾乎都是一模一樣的架構和條文內容如果我們對比較大的孩子我們都克責於父母有這些應盡的義務而且這個主管機關有資源提供協助的這個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
30028.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
30052.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
那我們在更小的小孩裡面不是更應該要有這樣的一個規範嗎但是我現在又講了就是說幼照法的體力也是一樣的狀況他們也是沒有沒有罰則基本上是宣示和鼓勵的意義所以如同我之前講過的讓服務的提供者可以好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
30054.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
30070.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
根據這條法律跟家長說這是法律規定的喔法律規定你要來喔真的有家長聽到法律規定他會稍微意願會有高一點否則的話他覺得說你政府也不規定你叫我去我就不要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
30072.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
30098.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
你不是說我買一個服務我搞好你就都你的事不是我們不是消費者在整個幼兒托育裡面托育服務裡面家長不是一個買服務的消費者而已是這樣子我們要確立這個關係透過這個條文我們可以確認家長也是托育服務的三個主體之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
30108.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
30130.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
好 謝謝林淑穎委員再度的發言那基本上行政機關還是希望就保留嘛然後文字做一些相關的調整之後再呈給提案委員做參考好不好那我們再來做討論啦好那我這邊再另外做重新公告那剛剛也是原有陳培元首席的第八條林淑穎首席的第四條我們把它拉入在 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
30131.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
30148.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
整理在 不是整理 就納入在第四條嘛那文字上有做一些調整就是第四條是推服務 多增加政策兩個字啦就推服務政策自實施好 那我們就照這樣修正通過好 那接下來那是第二張喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
30150.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
30164.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
接下來委員王育民有所提第9條、第10條、第11條、第12條還有第13條請求保留,謝謝主席請求保留,好那他這4條就是我替他發言9、10、11、12、13就全部保留,謝謝那我們現在來處理第二張 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
30175.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
30194.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
張明厭煩是居家托育那其他的委員有想我就不再贅述了好不好張明沒意見張明沒意見那張明我們就依照行政院版本來通過好不好好有沒有其他意見沒有那就照厭煩來通過第二章居家托育那接下來是處理林署委員所提的第14條好 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
30203.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
30227.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
來 請 等一下 請行政機關先表示意見之後再請委員表達 齁 回應齁 來主席 因為只剩下半個小時我們還要繼續把第二張處理 也處理不完第一條可能也處理不完 這一條可能也處理不完我們要不要 你下一次再討論沒有 尊重各位的意見啦下次 我個人是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
30229.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
30235.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
我是...但我知道你的意見...支持我們下次再繼續討論因為我們總共條文是78條啦那各位可能要...大家可能要算一下時間啦齁因為...這是沒辦法的事情我知道啦,現在就已經...跟他討論多久就討論多久了跟他在電視上嘛齁現在處理...不處理...處理...你...你... |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
30254.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
30263.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
你的兩條也十四十五嘛 好不好因為你的兩條時間可能也會漸不久啦因為會漸很久 所以我就說不然待會再拖下去這就要看你的地位啦 謝謝來 請行政司法院先回應 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
30273.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
30295.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
先說明林委員的版本第14條那針對這個部分是有直接明文的規定居家托育中心的一些應該辦理的事項那這個部分的話是現在行政版條文所並沒有特別去規範原則上這個部分我們這個如果要 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
30296.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
30323.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
有考慮到說現在各縣市它將來是居家托育中心是要受直轄市縣市政府的委託來從事相關工作那在這個部分去把它的應該要去服務工作的內容職長的內容有更明確的規範這個部分我們是可以支持那我們現在有建議有建議在文字上面可以去做一個簡單的調整那委員可以你有印出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
30330.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
30340.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
我們有提供給委員的一個修正草案的版本應該是在那一疊的第四章第四章還是第五章 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
30342.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
30356.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
現在是還沒有列條次我們把文字宣讀一下居家托育服務中心應辦理下列四項第一款居家托育人員之招募、儲備、支持、交流、暫時訓練、輔導、監督、管理及檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
30359.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
30386.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
第二款 受理居家托育服務證書申請變更及換發三 受理居家托育人員收托異動之通報四 托育服務媒合轉介協助簽訂托育書面契約五 處理第55條第一項之調處事項六 提供家長社區育兒諮詢及托育服務宣導七 其他配合中央及直轄市縣市住管機關交辦或委託有關居家托育服務事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
30391.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
30404.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
可以嗎 林委員可以對嘛 這個他基本上支持我們的是 是啊 是啊但是呢 我看不出來跟我們除了第二項以外前面差別在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
30406.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
30424.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
你可不可以告訴我跟我們的版本第一項裡面哪裡這幾款有哪裡不一樣等一下你告訴我稍微有跟委員處理的稍微不一樣的地方第一個是第四款的部分我們當然文資做了一個部分就是那個協助簽訂托育書面契約文資有稍微做一點整理第二個是第五款 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
30425.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
30453.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
那這個我們是第一個是調次因為版本的不同也調次的不一樣另外一個是調處事項那最後一個是第七款我們文字稍微做了一點處理就是還是要以這個其他的部分還是要以有關居家托育服務的事項我們就做了一點證明那為什麼第二項沒有我覺得你這樣修正是可以接受的但調次上的變動到底是第幾條可能最後再來討論就第五款到底是第幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
30455.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
30461.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
這個最後總的整理再來討論再來就是說這個順便契約這個是OK再來第七款就是其實我們討論過就是說要限縮在 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
30466.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
30486.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
地方政府要叫他們去配合的或委託的也是要限縮在跟居家托育服務事項有關的才可以才不會濫用那為什麼你們第二項就是我們的第二項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法由中央主管機關定制你們沒有放上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
30489.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
30513.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
各位說明我們現在我們初步的一個想法是說因為這個已經名列了有這樣正面的表列的期款那大概對於未來居托中心他應該去承擔的工作跟內容已經有相對已經比較明確的表述那第二個是因為他將來是要接受這個只要是縣市政府的一個公權力的委託 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
30514.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
30537.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
所以在這個委託的過程裡面也對於委託的做法也會在委託契約裡面也會有一個相關的規範所以我們就建議在行政的操作面就不再額外再去訂一個相關的事務處理原則的辦法這個是我們初步的一個想法跟我們說明他們不會有這個業務處理的原則的相關需求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
30539.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
30562.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
就是說做這些東西不會有一些原則上要遵循的嗎不用中央沒有不需要全國一致性的統一訂出一些處理原則嗎全部所有的事項通通都不用嗎或者是其實應該在我們的版本通過有需要的時候你就訂那不需要的時候你當然就不訂這樣子的話才不會說 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
30567.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
30591.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
對不對 因為全國要一致性嘛 是啊沒有錯沒有錯好 接下來請林業勤委員 執行的細節部分啦這些都是執行細節要怎麼處理那當然有一些處理原則啊來請林業勤委員 我這邊有疑慮的是其他配合中央及直轄市縣市政府交辦或委託事項假如要列這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
30595.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
30613.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
我覺得要講清楚說明白現在各縣市政府常常包山又包海的要做育兒指導又要做護苗計畫很多東西放進去如果只給一個內部的主管然後帶了即便給了工作人員重點事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
30614.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
30629.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
本來原來的業務裡邊他要去督的就已經很多事情又要再外加這個所以我不知道你這邊的意旨為何是說開放到這種程度嗎那我覺得那這樣子的話如果要放的話我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
30629.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
30655.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
所謂委員的後邊的第二項就非常重要有沒有一些第一個是原則甚至有些東西要不要去定義說你的所謂的托育服務的相關服務事項是什麼不過月子島也會講說跟托育服務運用保姆人員互苗計畫也算是像新北市就互苗計畫也算是那就真的又包了很多東西進去所以我就會比較擔心七這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
30657.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
30665.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
你增加的到底是什麼 有沒有否則如果要的話真的就要去配有第二項 去把它講清楚說明白 以上好 再請林總委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
30671.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
30689.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
現場為什麼要講這個要不要訂定這個處理原則的原因是因為在現場常見的有兩大問題的爭議比如說執行細節上要怎麼處理的時候都問說去訪視的時候可以拍照嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
30691.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
30713.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
那可以拍照嗎那有的地方政府說可以有的說不可以那居福中心的人去到底是要拍照還不拍照那還有就是說你去看的時候要看的是托育的地點是客廳那訪視員可以查看浴室或廚房嗎那保姆主張說這是我的飲食權 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
30714.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
30725.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
那你怎麼辦就是說到底托育地的爭議或是托育的地你訪試員到底要看哪裡要不要訂一些準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
30727.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
30749.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
對不對我的意思是說這些原則處理原則因為都很細節看起來好像說要交給他們自行去處理就好了地方政府這個地方政府說你房子的時候可以看客廳可以看他的私人臥室還可以看廚房看浴室那另外一個政府說不用看不可以看因為保姆有隱私權那到底要看還是不看 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
30751.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
30779.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
那要拍照可以拍照嗎那看的時候可以拍保姆的廚房拍保姆的浴室拍保姆的臥室嗎所以還有一個判決就是訪員去查看除了托育範圍以外的空間還被告被告因為他說這個就不是我托育的空間你為什麼看到我的這個托育範圍之外的空間你如果還要拍照的話怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
30781.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
30804.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
所以執行業務的大的原則是中央主管機關一定要扛起這個到底業務處理的原則是什麼 全國一致性否則各縣市不同層也是蠻好笑的 蠻荒謬的所以我意思是說 你照我們的版本 照我的版本照托蒙的版本 把第二項放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
30805.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
30812.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
然後你至少到時候需要的時候就是要訂出來不需要的我也沒有強迫你每一款都要訂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
30816.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
30840.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
因為老實說我們坐在辦公桌上你也是坐在你的辦公桌上裡面你沒有很多第一線的托育人員不管是機構的事或是保姆來跟你反映我們的想像力沒有那麼豐富你怎麼會想像說訪員居托中心的訪員這樣去看 看一個托育範圍之外就被拒絕想也不要想到 事實就是有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
30847.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
30872.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
放棄你啦我們用指引的方式這樣好不好沒有啦現在不是在說指引現在是你先在法律裡面要先把第二項我們的第二項脫蒙版本的第二項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法由中央主管機關定之我們是透過這個幾個文字授權給你們你們要訂什麼你們自己決定的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
30874.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
30896.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
有一個行政指導在那裡讓這個制定一個處理原則出來這個也只是一個行政也可能是一個行政指導行政指導效力不足那你們的還有什麼原則委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
30902.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
30930.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
你們目前是用行政指導,但是我們現在用辦法啦像剛才現在要訪員,要訪哪裡授權給你們定職法,不要用行政指導啦根本報告下,就是如同剛才委員所提到的這些因為真的有很多是執行面上非常細節性的然後實務操作上有時候會遇到的所以他在列舉上面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
30932.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
30952.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
儘管我們在訂定的過程中在詳細的先去預先去設想有時候不見得能夠非常的完善那這邊其實是考慮到這個這個實際上面執行的部分我們還是會建議說是不是有可能容許這個由中央主管機關未來透過一個類似指引或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
30953.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
30972.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
行政上的一個比較原則性的一個一個的文件來做相關的處理因為如果是訂成法規命令的時候一旦有需要增補的時候其實會面臨一個就是他依照法制作業程序的時候其實相對來說時間還比較耗時這也是你們法規命令的時候的自己可以去調整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
30973.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
30999.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
就是說我在這裡只是告訴你你們大的原則是你中央主管機關你去訂出來我沒有叫你訂到多細的細節我在這個條文裡面也沒有要求你要訂的多繁瑣多執行面要多細索沒有我們也是授權給你而你訂的大原則你訂的也是訂大原則或是你要訂到多執行細節多細節這也是你們在決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
31004.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
31027.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
那我剛剛講說這兩大爭議一個就是拖浴地或者是拍照這個真的就是很大的爭議現場的所有的居府中心的人經常遇到的那可是這個會跟保姆的隱私權跟他的居家環境這個會衝突那如果涉及到人家的隱私權的話那當然要有法律的授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
31028.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
31048.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
而我在這裡給你授權給你去訂定你的執法那依此你們訂出來的執法才可以去做到這些動作因為你是法律保留原則我法律授權給你的而你訂出來是有法律依據的你去做這幾件事之後你叫我阻斷別人給你做啊因為我是法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
31053.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
31064.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
明文規定我依法律授權給我我訂出來的執法和法規所以某種程度也是法律授權了有法律授權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
31065.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
31083.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
才能夠到人家家裡說我要跟你拍照啊你一個行政指導說我要去人家家裡拍照人家要你幫忙有資格幫忙你去人家家裡拍照你的托育地請問現在有哪個法律允許你去人家家裡拍照現在有哪一個法律可以允許 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
31092.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
31117.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
居府中心的人可以去你家拍照所以難道不需要法律授權嗎要法律保留原則啊我們裡面會簽到我們內部的法規命令我們自己內部自己整合啦這樣就是基本上的文字第一項調整叫你們的第二項照我們的第一項照衛福部的第二項照你的是不是是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
31123.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
31146.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
現在修嗎?麻煩依照剛才我跟委員報告的建議文字甄列第二項前項執行業務處理原則等相關辦法我們建議依照體力加一個逗點由中央主管機關定制以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
31149.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
31172.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
好 這個條文就照林淑文委員所提的條文再修正通過啦但是條次還是請你們因為裡面還有牽涉到處理第50條這個或許還是要再調啦前面一定有條文要整理那個是不是整個條文整個順完之後再去順條文我知道 那原則上是保留啦就把文字跟那個條次 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
31174.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
31195.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
是通過啦,調適的部分請你們來做處理啦但是裡面的五十幾條那個可能還是...調適就授權刑事單位來做調整啦,OK好,謝謝那就到這樣修正後通過接下來處理第15條也是林署委員所提第15條來,請衛福部表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
31200.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
31217.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
林委員的第15條的部分對於職家式縣市主管機關未來對於居家托育服務中心要進行的相關監督有要求檢查輔導還有評鑑等等尤其是要求要做相關的評鑑針對這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
31221.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
31236.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
因為我們在前面的條文已經提到未來對於這個居託中心的定位它等於是行政機關受託來行使相關的業務所以等同是行政機關執行公權力的一個延伸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
31237.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
31263.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
那一般對於這個等於是接近行政機關有公權力屬性的大概在監督的部分可能就比較少去用到所謂的這樣用到像評鑑這樣的一個機制大概等於比較會多比較多的監督方式就是類似行政機關中間上下級中間的一個直接監督跟督導的關係所以這個部分我們建議這個條文是不是可以就免於爭定謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
31266.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
31285.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
來 請聽回應他畢竟不是行政機關老實說大家都知道居托中心也有一些真的是良幼不齊居托中心不管是主管或是訪員或是督導員 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
31286.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
31302.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
他的內部管理難道你們不需要去介入嗎你們把公權力委託給他他要去評人家的保姆有沒有合格要去訪視那他們整個中心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
31303.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
31331.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
居托中心的這些管理的能力那他的訪員他的督導員的專業的能力他們自己內部行政管理的這個部分你難道不用稍微看一下嗎所以我們才說要監督這個居托中心的品質但是如果你不要這個評鑑的話我們其實不是要評鑑而是說你要有個機制去監督他的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
31336.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
31356.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
不是嘴巴說你們會管理就好了我們不相信你們嘴巴講說你們會管理而他在對於居家托育這個保姆這一環居托中心扮演何等重要的角色他代替了政府去做這麼多的事情他的監督能力和品質難道不用被確認再確認嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
31358.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
31377.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
所以如果你不想要用評鑑這種機制我覺得政府機構當然會覺得又要評鑑我還要去辦理評鑑 真煩但如果你不想要評鑑這種機制也沒關係我們不堅持一定要用評鑑這種制度可是你有辦法有什麼樣的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
31379.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
31398.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
可以類似評鑑可以讓居托服務中心的人他們的內部願意好好的把他們的品質還有他們的這個能力專業真的是確定確保都是在我們所需要的這個一定的程度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
31399.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
31419.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
所以不要什麼事情都說啊這個地方政府的責任啊這個叫地方政府去做我我叫他們去做也要克責於說你有什麼機制要叫地方政府去執行我覺得現在從早上審到現在就覺得不愛做以外的說這交給地方政府去做就好這交給地方政府去做就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
31426.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
31430.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
嗯 其實我也不知道 我已經以前去說過 現在我也是有嘴講到沒話 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
31433.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
31454.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
好因為早上我就提過然後我因為今天早上蠻驚訝聽到說你們要完全由居家托育服務中心來執行公權力那我就很好奇是說那你的其他法律的強度上到底多強去針對於團體來 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
31458.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
31486.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
受你們委託那這個團體又是誰因為過去就是一直是兩落不齊的狀態裡面要執行公權力而且裡面的工作人員本來就讓人家在後來一直在放寬條件以前是幼教跟社工後來就一直放寬條件那裡面的人的訓練又是什麼那可是他以後要帶行你執行公權力我不知道你給他的公權力的強度有多強那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
31488.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
31511.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
淑芬委員只是講說她貧賤還有我覺得我比較認同說她講說要檢查輔導因為如果你要執行公權力可能更強度不是只有貧賤現在坦白講只有貧賤你們平常事實上是不會有去監督管理這是一個那更往前的話如果要執行公權力我覺得這些可能要你們今天也要說明說那你們未來的這個所謂的如果以淑芬委員寫的是專業機構頓耗團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
31516.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
31544.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
那才是會符合你們講的公權力的去執行喔所以我就不知道如果沒有這一條的話我不知道我無法想像你們講的要執行公權力的這個單位跟人員到底能量如何以往過往坦白講居家推服務中心各縣市落差非常大有些是完全沒有機構啊所以他是拜託來的我既然拜託來的話我不太可能管他管他到時候他就不接了那啊不接的時候怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
31545.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
31567.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
所以呢我乾脆就還是他做得不太好我也是免於讓他去做可是影響的是誰的權益還是孩子的權益啊所以我想說是不是衛福部可以針對這部分做解釋除了剛剛淑芬委員提的那些要以外我還更覺得前面你到底那個機構到底你們怎麼去做選擇你們委託的時候怎麼做選擇以上主席我會再 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
31571.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
31587.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
主席不好意思我再補充一下這個食物面的問題然後再請這個社交署回答就是說我們都知道縣市政府包括縣市政府本身這個業務承辦員的流動承辦人員的異動性都很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
31592.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
31613.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
地方政府的基層人員的異動性流動性本身就很高所以這些人一個換一個他除了沒有經驗以外連專業性都要打問號所以你說地方政府的這些人他們誰能夠好好的監督居托中心的運作啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
31613.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
31638.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
一個外星人又換一個人來連地方政府的人都一直在流動然後你仰賴他們去把關起這個責任然後就說這個居州中心要去做那個富有公權力的使命和權力的這個工作然後可是監督居州中心的這一個縣市城辦他又是新來的新手什麼都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
31639.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
31655.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
很荒謬而且各地方政府對居托服務中心的管理如果沒有一致的標準你中央我們第三項講說他的監督啊檢查輔導啊評鑑賦評啊中央要訂出相關的遵循事項和辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
31656.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
31683.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
如果你不願意扛起這個責任地方政府對居家托育服務中心的管理各自做各自的會很麻煩甚至有些地方政府說比較難聽因為事件發生的時候或者是說有一些比較高明的狀況的時候大家都知道會不會有一種不是吃案啦就類似有些縣市政府會不會有壓力所以會阻止居托中心去做脆弱家庭的這個通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
31688.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
31706.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
這個 這個是如果發生了一件的話 事情也是很大條的那有些地方政府 如果他說我們就沒有苛責於居多中心做催加的通報他就不用做了 他就沒規定啊 他就沒規定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
31707.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
31729.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
所以我們才說中央其實對於居托中心他的業務職長職責要明定以外然後現在對於居托中心他本身這個中心你要監督他檢查他輔導他評鑑他然後這個要評鑑他們要的輔導他們要監督他們要遵循什麼事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
31730.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
31751.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
中央要定出這一些遵循事項的辦法來讓地方政府,而不是讓地方政府各自為政然後有壓力的他們就說我們有一些不要定出來不要定出來好像這個掩耳盜鈴一樣沒有定出來就不用做,不用做的話就不關我們的事這事情也很大條的所以其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
31757.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
31782.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
我並不是說要找中央麻煩 而是這件事情本來就不是一個容易的事啦我們知道全部的這些責任要扛起來真的也是很沉重可是既然要法制面 要立一個專法今天就是已經說我要破釜沉舟宣誓國家重視托育 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
31783.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
31799.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
這個托育服務這件事情了那麼你要訂出一些相關的辦法出來讓地方政府遵循全國一致性然後扛起這個責任然後確保這些居家居府中心的這個品質和專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
31802.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
31818.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
這個就是必要的啦 必要的 並不是我一定要一直每天都叫你們做 每天都叫你們做這就沒辦法了 既然要做了 就是要這樣做比較是正確的 不是說找你麻煩啦 真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
31821.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
31848.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
行政機關應該也不會認為委員去找麻煩現在就是說要訂一套新的制度台灣的社會對這事情大家都非常的關注希望也是一個長治久安的制度當然法律的各個條文的面向都要兼顧到去思考也要去考量到法律訂之後是不是可以執行貫徹到位這是最重要的一個立法的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
31849.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
31877.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
那我想這個是增列的條文啦那相關如果如果你們覺得還有討論空間現在沒辦法直接討論那我們就先保留 好不好好 OK 好好 那好啦我們開會是到五點半好 還是盡量跟你講嘛我們開會是到五點半嘛然後各位委員OK啦沒有要 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
31879.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
31897.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
沒有啦,好,謝謝我就告一段落啦,現在就到這裡告一段落啦不過是要尊重各位的意見嘛,對不對對啦,對啦你就沒聲,你又說,好對啊,就沒聲再來,那我們就做以下決議兒童推育服務法草案等二十案尚未審查完略我們要令擇期繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
31898.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
31923.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
那我要宣布在上面之前我還是拜託部長還有次長還有我們代理署長我覺得因為後面還有將近六十多條的條文然後二十個版本嘛如果可以事先進行先溝通也許有的是跟院版就是不盡相容的還是說再增列的你們有意見我覺得應該是去找個別提案委員先進行溝通啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
31925.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
31932.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
要不要聽這位來處理,這就是這樣嘛,好不好好,本部會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家,謝謝 |