| IVOD_ID |
16736 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16736 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-05T08:30:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-05T13:48:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:17:31 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc1c393f606ce9432199e01fa654b13793fdab1a38f0d348c0b195566b938eae215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查
（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。
（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、繼續併案審查
（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。
【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:29 - 13:48:00 |
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好 謝謝 我們現在繼續開會 我們先介紹到場委員 林月琴委員應邀列席官員考試院祕書長 劉祕書長保訓會主委 蔡主委全序部政次 懷政次 |
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其議會及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不在逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本日會議討論事項兩案分別為一 病案審查公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案 |
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1849.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
然後繼續併案審查公務人員任用法第36條之一條文修正草案由於第二案是前113年12月5日本屆第二會期司法及法治委員會第18次全體委員會議審查決議報告及詢答完畢令定期繼續審查因此現在進行第一案公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案之提案說明及報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1853.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1866.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好 我們現在進行委員提案說明 發言時間3分鐘我們請林月琴委員進行提案說明我們補充介紹道場委員 黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1878.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1906.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本席今天要針對公務人員職場霸凌這個嚴肅的議題來說明目前制度上的一些問題跟修法的必要性行政院隨之108年起即訂定了相關的指導原則並於112年進一步要求上級機關處理首長涉案事件但面對首長涉案該制度能難自愛難行現行複審再申訴跟行政訴訟程序複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1908.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1935.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
基層人員難以有效運用那實際救濟成效有限所以113年北基已花分屬無姓同仁不姓親生經調查確定跟職場霸凌跟管理不當有因果關係凸顯制度防線失守本席認為若制度明確程序友善或能挽回一條生命所以目前的安全與衛生防護的法律規範事實上是模糊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1936.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1954.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
無法有效涵蓋職場霸凌等非肢體的傷害多數案件處在不是明顯犯罪卻構成長期傷害的灰色地帶常被誤認為單純的管理問題而未妥善處理因此本行提出修法建議希望透過以下幾點 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1955.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1975.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
來建立一個能夠保護工人員的制度第一明確把職場霸凌管理不當導致的身心傷害納入安全與衛生防護的範圍並授權考試院跟行政院共同訂定相關的辦法包括預防申訴調查處理輔導等措施讓制度更完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1976.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1999.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第二 各機關要建立內部跟外部的申訴跟通報制度當加害人士 人事主管 單位主管或機關首長申訴可以往上提或由外部第三方來處理 避免利益衝突第三 要求各機關成立防治審議會負責調查處理這類事件 必要時也可以移送司法機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2000.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2024.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
確保處理有力量第四 明定申訴期限避免因時間拖延讓受害者失去救濟的機會所以本席認為保障公務人員的身心健康是國家的最基本責任那公務員每天面對到龐大業務跟壓力不該再承受不合理的職場對待這不是制度的問題更是職場文化跟人權保障的四金石所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2024.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2047.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
敬請各位支持本案修法讓我們一起建立一個安全尊重公平的公務環境以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那請問民眾黨的代表黃委員有沒有要進行民眾黨提案說明好 那麻煩黃委員謝謝主席 本會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2048.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2069.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
公務員在職場當中必須要得到安全衛生最基本的防護這是任何一個民主法治國家當中都應該要給公務員基本的保障非常不幸的我國有關於公務員保障的安慰辦法從2014年到目前為止歷經了11年的時間當中從來沒有做修訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2074.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2093.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第一次到立法院服務的時候我曾在2018年針對這件事情提出質詢那個時候得到要盡速修訂的承諾沒想到等我2024年回到立法院來原地踏步一事無成毫無進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2095.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2114.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
台灣民眾黨立法院黨團從過去這一年不斷的催促我們的考試院提出相關的辦法以及母法公務人員保障法的修訂為什麼公務人員保障法的修訂很重要因為沒有母法的授權執法的安慰辦法根本無從定法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2116.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2139.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
也正是因為這個樣子從去年台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們針對公務員保障法必須要有授權處罰的規定我們率先提出了提案而且在考試院正副院長以及考試委員的尋答過程當中要求新任的考試院院長具體明確的提出承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2140.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2167.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
而這件事情跟去年所不幸發生的在勞動部職場霸凌事件不幸往生的工程師另外一個緊密連結的是有關於職場霸凌的處理台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們本來希望的立法形式是通過職場霸凌的專法也就是公司部門一律的納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2168.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2188.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那只不過說目前我們的行政單位似乎是希望針對有關於私部門交由勞動部處理的霸凌法針對公部門放在公務人員保障法當中對立法形式的不同我們沒有太強烈的堅持最重要的事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2189.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2207.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
重塑趕快提供我們所有在公部門服務的同仁一個安全衛生的環境以及有法律強制力作為保障的一個機制那因此在今天的整個公務員保障法的審議過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2209.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2228.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
對於公司部門要分流這樣子的處理方式我們不會堅持一定要用一部專法予以涵蓋那但是對於今天考試院所提出來的版本除了我們本來就已經提出來的條文之外針對考試院的版本我們認為有所不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2229.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2250.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那我也感謝我們的召委吳宗憲召委那今天在委員會審議的時候我跟吳宗憲召委會共同提出一版修正動議那希望能夠對於目前公務人員保障法的規範模式能夠更完整的更有實效性的來加以保障敬請各位委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2255.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2270.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 我們接著進行機關代表報告 每位發言時間3分鐘我們待會就依序由考試院劉秘書長還有保訓會的蔡主委 然後詮釋部的懷政次我們待會依序就這樣報告好 那我們首先先請劉秘書長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2276.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2295.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天很榮幸能夠列席貴委員會來參與保障法部分條文修正草案的審查就在去年底在貴院行使第十四屆考試院人事同意權的時候總統院院長有主動的具體承諾公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2296.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2323.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有關霸凌防治跟安全衛生等等相關法令的修正將列為本屆考試院的優先施政重點並競速在本會期來提出相關的草案在上個月考試院實現了這項承諾5月1號我們的院會通過了保障法還有安慰辦法跟考機法的三部修正的草案分別函送立法院來審議還有函請行政院會嫌這三部法案跟辦法的配套修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2324.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2350.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有兩個重點一個就是霸凌防治一個就是公務員執行職務的安全健康那相較於現在的規定這個修法之後會帶來幾個具體的改變第一個就是提升了法治位階第二是規範更加具體周延第三是強化了各個主管機關的權責第四個是強化了上級機關跟保訓會監督跟檢查的權責第五是增訂了法則包含行政罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2351.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2379.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這裡面就職場霸凌方面保障法的修正把相關的未接從現在的指引提升到法律也明確定義了這個霸凌的定義還有機關防治責任明定申訴期限增訂了相關的罰則我們搭配安慰辦法的修正在當中我們有一個職場霸凌申訴處理的專節來完善了申訴處理機制而且對機關可以責任除了要迅速處理採取補救措施也不可以對申訴人有不利的對待或不合理的處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2380.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2401.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
此外還有考機法第十二條修正案把霸凌行為甄列為得一次計兩大過免職的情勢所以我們希望透過這三管齊下完整的配套以最快的速度來建立公部門霸凌防治的法制規範有效防範相關事件的再次發生另外就公務人員職場安全健康的方面我們除了在安慰辦法當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2402.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2417.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
有提升了各機關的防護機制同時我們也有針對高風險職務訂定了專節的規範增加了監督與檢查的專章要求各機關對所屬進行定期的抽查跟專案檢查但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2418.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2437.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
為了不要使安慰辦法只是無牙老虎所以今天我們審查的保障法草案就非常重要因為它納入了相關的法則也賦予了保訓會行政法環的審議跟採取權責所以如果這個法案都能夠順利的通過的話就能夠確保安慰辦法的規定在各公務機關被貫徹落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2439.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2468.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在這邊要感謝吳釗偉跟貴委員會對相關法案過去多次的指證以及最快速度來排審今天保障法的修正草案由於安慰辦法也即將要完成兩院的會嫌程序所以我們會盡快的發布實施並且還請貴院備查我們期盼在保障法跟考記法的修正草案都能夠在本會期來完成審議這樣相關的法治基礎就可以完備以上有種感謝也請各位批評指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2473.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2476.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
主席各位委員各位先生女士大家早安今天很榮幸列席貴會在就公務人員保障法的部分條文修正草案的審議提出報告那這次修法主要是在回應這個大院各位委員還有政府公務人員以及社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2502.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2530.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對於政府部門職場霸凌防治以及安全衛生事項法制層面的周延性及有效性的關注那政府部門呢現行有關安全衛生及職場霸凌的制度最主要就是由考試院保訓會目前所掌理的公務人員保障法還有公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法作為基礎所架構起來的那現行的法制呢這個過去呢被認為這個法律位階不足然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2531.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2555.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有一些具體應該要更明確克責以及具體落法的處理機制並沒有在這個相關的辦法裡面有相對應的罰則所以這一次我們的保障法修法重點主要就是賦予這個安全及衛生防護辦法重要的法源那特別是在有關於職場霸凌的部分我們直接把它明確的入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2556.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2569.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那這個相關的定義呢除了一般的所謂我們講持續性以外那參酌了很多的這個機關團體還有這個法治法學的專家我們也增加了一個部分就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2571.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2594.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
如果一次性的造成了這個公務人員的身心受創那我們也把它列入是所謂的職場霸凌的一個定義裡面那第二個部分呢就是有關於這個依照這個行為人他是不是屬於具有權勢地位所謂權勢地位指的就是說對於被霸凌人他是屬於機關的各級主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2595.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2615.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
或者是這個具有監督管理的權限的這一種跟一般的是屬於這個植物上機會所造成的職場霸凌分別規劃屬於叫全市性霸凌或一般性霸凌而有不同的這個申訴的這個期限分別是三年跟五年再來機關的應負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2617.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2644.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
人及機關首長如果違反安慰辦法那我們新增的罰還跟處罰涉及刑事責任就移送檢查機關再來明確的定義保訓會作為安全衛生事故審議的這個機關那會組成這個調查小組那裁罰跟外部機關我們也納入那再來就是公務人員因機關未提供安全衛生防護措施導致生命身心健康受損得以國家賠償法請求賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2647.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2674.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
此外呢為了讓程序一致目前呢很多的這個沒有納入這個安慰辦法的那我們為了讓機關裡面的人員程序一致所以我們也用准用的方式那麼最後呢就是非常的感謝大院還有這個我們這次召委跟委員會還有很多的委員給我們這個很強力的督促還有很大的期許讓我們這次的修法可以這個希望能夠達成這個各位委員的期待謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2678.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2680.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好謝謝那下一位我們請懷政次 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2686.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2711.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家早安那本部對於那個公務員保障法的修正這部分是屬於保訓會執掌事項那也經過考試院會通過送到大院審議本部並表尊重那另外配合保障法的修正考試院已經在今年5月6號把公務員考計法第12條修正草案含送大院來審議那主要是對於一次兩大過部分我們增加關於職場霸凌、性騷擾、酒後駕車 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2712.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2727.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
跟性侵害等等相關的規範,予以更明確的規範那這部分有待大院來審議那另外根據第二案,就是案於二的部分那有關於李願秀委員提案對於公園任用法第36條之一的修正草案那本部看完以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2729.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2756.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我想我們有一些文字上修正那也符合那個李燕秀委員他所提案的內容那等到具體條文討論的時候我們再提出意見那這個我們本部的建議修正意見在我們的書面報告的附件那另外那個翁委員小林所提的公園任用法第28條之一的修正草案那我們看了翁委員草案的修正他主要的目的是要把御孫這個部分加進去那我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2756.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2777.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
他主要是希望我們公園那個留職停薪辦法能夠把後面單數修掉那我們部裡面初步的建議是建議第28條之一事實上事務可以不用修正如本部直接依照翁曉林委員的意見直接來修把那個公園留職停薪辦法翁曉林委員所提的後面那個單數部我們直接把它以行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2778.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2779.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
其餘提出書面報告的機關有沒有口頭補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2797.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2824.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那沒有的話機關報告機關代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位穿越並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答由於詢答後接續進行法案審查所以我們伊利本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2832.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2859.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝主席 我們有請考試院秘書長保訓會主任委員 蔡主任委員還有選區部的懷疑政策懷疑政策委員長三位早 時間的關係不易問候最近監察院濫用公務車的狀況引爆全國人民的怒火昨天有立法委員檢舉所接到檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2860.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2887.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有監委濫用公務車啊結果那個監委啊大嗆說他沒有公務車大家很慘啊下雨天要坐捷運又要走路我看到這樣的發言啊我簡直是瞠目結舌啊何不食肉糜啊全國的公務人員哪一個不是這樣上班的啊監委有比較忙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2889.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2918.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
但是他講了一句啊 很有啟發性的話他說什麼他說不是只有監察院有公務車啊要查全面都要查啊來 先請秘書長 贊不贊成他這樣的呼籲跟委員報告 就是我想所有的機關在使用公務車的時候都應該遵守相當的規定OK 好 來 我們來看一下考試院目前有12部首長專用車 1部副首長專用車我指的是院本部喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2919.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2931.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
其他的 選序部 考選部以及保訓會的我還沒有算保訓會的在下一張考選部 選序部 保訓會總共有九部政府首長專用車 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2933.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2948.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
院本部有12部首長專用車啊現在這12部首長專用車是怎麼使用的啊可不可以簡單跟大家說明一下我們有一個院長副院長嘛他們都是首長嗎首長專用車的話現在就是院長副院長秘書長跟副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2950.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2977.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
四台這個就是那其他的考試委員呢六個考試委員嘛對不對我們有六位考試委員十二部扣掉四部正副院長正副秘書長還有八部嘛然後有六個考試委員我們六位考試委員他們現在考試委員的那個載送他們的車輛他們的使用方法也是一樣要提出拍車單 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2978.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3000.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
一樣要提出派車單所以不是專用車有沒有固定的司機跟我們報告其實慣例上面以前都是專用車在很多屆前是那在幾屆以前有立法院做成決議是就認為烤尾不應該是專用車有沒有落實有這個部分有因為烤尾的車輛都要所以司機跟烤尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3001.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3025.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
不是專屬的關係但是他還是會有一個對應關係沒有專屬的關係有對應關係我的意思就是說那你還敢講有落實喔因為這樣考委的車輛也要接受公務車的調度所以也就是說如果因為我們就是如果公務車需要量比較多的時候那我們的單位會調配沒有啦不要講這些雜七雜八的我現在只有問首長專用車嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3029.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3052.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
在你們給立法院公務車的車輛明細表裡面有12輛首長專用車嘛扣掉正副院長、正副秘書長還有8輛嘛然後考試委員有6名嘛所以呢首長專用車的數量大於所有院本部的正副首長這樣講沒有錯吧對 因為這次考試委員提名人數就沒有到9位 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3055.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3082.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我再問我最關鍵的問題以前啦是上一屆國會的時候秘書長應該很清楚啊你有被檢舉過啊搭公務車然後出入清平台基金會大樓那個時候潘孟安姚立民也有一起與會這個事情你還記得吧對 這個是我是去拜會清平台的鄭麗君董事長所以這是公務我去拜會他這個部分是公務是公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3083.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3096.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
晚上九點是公務應該說我們在拜會相關民間智庫的話這個其實也是都做這是民間智庫還是賴清德的民間競選總部因為這個部分我沒有參與啦你確定沒有參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3098.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3119.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
真的沒有參與上一屆啊立法委員問這一題問得很溫和啊那時候我人不在立法院啊我也想說算了就尊重那一屆啊立委的職責我只是要喚起你的記憶啊喚起你的記憶啊同時讓所有考試院的正副院長啊大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3120.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3139.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
一起共同勉力共同警惕公務車是不是可以這樣用現在事情風波變成這個樣子那既然既然有監委呼籲要查全面就要查那沒關係那我們就來全面的清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3140.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3164.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
是不是可以請考試院包括所屬的兩部還有保訓會針對今年考試委員以及你們正副首長使用公務車的情況派車單的影本以及公務車司機加班的情況每個月加班的時數以及加班費會後把資料送給全體司法法治委員會的委員可以嗎需要多久 三天之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3165.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3192.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 我們盡快好 三天之內喔 今年所有的狀況提到社會法治委員會然後我們說到狀況以後有沒有必要排專案報告我再請我們的召委來加以斟酌來進入今天的主題中憲院長當初在考試院院長提名權的時候我事實上在跟他詢問 他有跟我承諾說他一定會提出公務員保障法的修正草案這件事情有做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3194.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3218.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
周院長說到做到說到做到我沒有後悔當初投他一個贊成票但是現在我們今天要進入整個法規範細部的討論逐條的時候我們可以再交換意見但有幾個大的原則性的問題來我先請教一下保健會的主委裡面有說啦 就針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3219.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3230.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
霸凌的狀況 機關首長經認定職場霸凌成立處一萬元以上 一百萬元以下的罰款這是考試員的提案嘛好 那這個機關首長怎麼定義啊機關 不好意思機關首長指的就是 我們是相對於這個治安法裡面他講的是民間的部署是啦 是啦 那治安法是民間的嘛在公務機關的機關首長如何定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3246.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3264.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
他在整個組織法裡面呢 他明定就是掌理跟負責整個機關政務的推動的那一個負責人 最主要負責人那我們稱他為機關首長 依照就是中央行政機關組織法的規定我們的機關首長有四級嘛有一級機關 二級機關 三級機關 四級機關嘛四級到第四級的機關首長全部都算是嗎是好來 我們下一個 司長算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3278.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3288.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
他算單位主管 他不算機關首長那現在問題就來啦單位主管 師長就很大啦我們先休息 先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3317.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3326.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
民主黨你先坐著休息沒事喔沒有沒有沒有這個不是任何人的問題就民主黨先休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3346.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3348.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
立法院這邊有義務室我們再請他們過來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3368.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3368.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3403.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3419.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
各位委員,如果我們讓他們到巡打的位置,大家可以接受嗎?好,那我們就...就主委,我們就到那個官員的位置那邊去接受巡打,對對對,欸這個台子壞掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3431.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3445.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3458.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3463.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3493.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3494.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
桌幕的這個螢幕我們會裝上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3560.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3579.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好 那民主黨等一下如果你有任何需要或不舒服你都隨時跟我們說不用擔心 耽誤會議的進行就隨時跟我講那我們需要停止或是你有什麼需求就直接跟我們說好 以身體健康為第一優先抱歉個人身體狀況妨礙這個進程這個身體的問題絕對不是任何人有什麼不對的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3584.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3608.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以只要有什麼問題你隨時跟我說以您的身體健康為我的第一考量是 謝謝不好意思那我們就會議繼續謝謝主席其實我是歉意啦看是不是直接讓秘書長先離席我剛剛有跟秘書長說就是秘書長如果需要請假可以先請假回去我們這邊沒問題沒有關係 謝謝委員讓我坐著 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3610.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3627.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那請民主黨隨時注意一下身體狀況或有沒有撞傷或什麼一定要講好 謝謝民主黨OK 好 那就繼續下去就麻煩保訓會的主委回答就好了所以我們先從法條的定義開始司長不在你們這次所提出法案的機關首長的範圍當中對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3630.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3651.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
她不算機關首長,但是她算是負責人之一,因為如果說在現場當中她是實際指揮監督者。我就具體的講我的法律意見,從過去衛福部所發生的案子清楚的呈現出來,不用到機關首長,部門主管的權勢就很大了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3652.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3677.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
部門主管的權勢就很大了就問一問一般的公務員 師長大不大師長講的話敢不敢違逆為什麼會有師長叫人家在那邊要深蹲做福利挺身還叫下屬自殺這個應該都是落入你們這一次保訓會所提出的公務員職場霸凌的定義範圍內沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3681.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3707.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你要按麥克風是對嘛那現在問題就來了屬於你們所定義的職場霸凌範疇但因為他不符合機關首長的定義那導致沒有辦法對他進行行政上面的罰還而他現實上是什麼現實上公務體系裡面公務員隨便問一問就知道權勢很大了啦那要不然在衛福部怎麼會出現這樣令人髮指的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3710.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3738.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
沒有關係啊 我質詢就是要把這個point把它講出來那具體法條啊討論的時候 我跟其他的委員包括吳宗憲委員 羅志強委員等等我們所提出來的修正動議到具體條文的時候我們再來進一步討論希望到時候考試院保訓會的心胸能夠放寬一點全部把它嚴格限定在機關首長保護的範圍是不是足夠這件事情可能要討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3739.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3749.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我的時間到了 我最後只問一題跟今天所提的法律案有關係的我們都到主條再來處理我最後一個問題 請教一下全序部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3750.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3777.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們之前啊 就那個警察人員人事條例啊台灣民眾黨團的立場是我們要保護我們警消的同仁他們非常的辛苦 非常的辛苦在政策上 權序部有不一樣的看法我理解 因為你們要面對所有的公務員那警消特別處理你們權序部一直有不一樣的看法這個我都理解但問題是這個法律案現在已經三讀通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3778.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3793.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那我得到一些基層我們警消退休的人員他們的反應是說三讀通過了到底什麼時候要做然後我找警政署來說現在跟你們好像有一些意見不一樣需要多久來請玄虛部 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3794.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3819.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我跟委員報告一下第一個這個法律已經在今年4月25日總統公布生效這是一個有效法律我們本部一定會執行這個大家不用擔心另外因為在這個法通過以後事實上實際執行上面我們事實上在4月29日、5月16日跟5月28日兩部的內政部跟本部的政務次長都有召開會議因為有些執行上細節並不是還需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3820.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3838.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
目前大概警政署他必須要研修一個警察條例的適應細則那因為現在的這個所以現在是警政署那邊的問題對因為我們這個有很多討論因為很多細節這我跟委員報告我也是繼承公園出身的這個法律通過不是我們想像說好像訂貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3839.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3860.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
尤其這個裡面大概沒有退休人就跟沒有退休你把要做的工作還有需要多久清楚的讓大家知道讓所有基層的同仁可以知道就好這個我們現在大概後續還要再進行一個叫做電腦系統的一個需求處理那那個部分我們跟專業單位討論過大概需要三個月時間三個月時間對對對沒有關係就等你三個月因為今天你時間講出來了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3865.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3893.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那大家就等你三個月三個月要完成電腦系統以後我們才可以開始作業不是說三個月就把這個事情做好所以總共需要多久我們是預計因為我們要考慮到不好意思我們要考慮到我們部裡面同仁的工作複合大概電腦如果很順利能夠三個月把它完成的話我們大概預判應該在年底以前應該都可以把它完成年底以前對 把四萬多年前完成沒有關係啦而且這個都會追溯你們需要時間喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3894.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3918.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
一定給你們時間那只是全責要理清楚那你要給大家一個清楚心裡的預期嘛這些基層的公務人員他們退休了以後知道你們辛苦需要時間處理這大家都可以理解那我也肯定今天選區部表現了一個態度立法院三讀通過了法律你們會遵守 會執行這個態度非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3920.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3947.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個態度真的非常的好比現在行政院院長卓榮浩的套度啊好太多了那只是在具體執行的時間上你們說希望年底以前完成那就拜託選區部的同仁跟我們警政署的同仁加把勁因為對於這些退休警銷給他們保障這件事情他們期待了非常久法律完成三讀的盡量能夠趕快真正的施行謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3951.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3953.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
謝謝 下一位我們請王逸川委員發言謝謝主席請教一下保訓會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3978.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3999.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
要修這個法 過去當然有一些爭議 希望是不是跟這個職安法一起來處理這一次特別把他拉到公務人員保障法來做處理目的 如果我的理解沒有錯 目的就是加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4000.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4019.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
趕快然後把這個公務體系的這些比如說像霸凌的這些課題啊能夠有一些懲戒的機制甚至有這一個相關的救濟的機制我的理解這樣是對的嗎報告員沒有錯那勞動部的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4021.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4041.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為勞動部他們目前也有將這個資產霸凌的部分納入但是呢我們整個的保障法呢是基於這個院長的那個同意權行使的時候大院所作出的承諾此外呢從憲法的規定裡面憲法正確條文第六條考試院所掌理的保障呢本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4042.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4059.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
就是考試院應該要很積極當則去做的事情所以呢我們在這個修法的過程當中跟勞動部主要的互動就是盡可能的讓雙方的這個有關於他們是對私部門的勞工我們對政府部門的公務人員的相關的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4060.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4077.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
處理程序 課則還有包含這個相關的罰則等等都盡可能的一致好 那你們也除了這個保障法這個院裡頭也有一個安慰辦法嘛是那我的理解是你們也有做相關的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4078.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4092.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
對不對那可不可以大概講一下這個修正的主要的內容涵蓋哪些好 謝謝委員這個安全及衛生安全及衛生防護辦法這次的修正是相當大幅度的那第一個部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4093.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4108.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
在前年跟去年有關於消防法的部分那但是它已經納入了消防法專章但是我們也一併的把這個高風險的植物呢有一個專節特別在處理那這個部分主要就是屬於這個安檢跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4109.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4137.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
辦公場所執行職務的相關的這個設備等等的部分那第二部分當然就是這一次大家最關心的有關於不法侵害那不法侵害這一章裡面特別做了一個有關於這個職場霸凌的這個專節那在這個專節裡面呢我們整個的這個架構呢完成了就是說如果因為政府行政機關最重要的特色就是足及高密度的這個監督所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4138.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4154.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
從主管機關開始他設這個安全及衛生防護諮詢會然後再來這個各機關必須設安全防護委員會那這裡面呢不管是性別或是外部人員呢都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4155.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4174.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
達到這個不低於二分之一或三分之一你剛剛講的這些機制啊經常保訓會啊會被質疑一件事情我們也會街道陳情叫做官官相護這個機制上現在保訓會有什麼樣的方式可以來杜絕外面這樣的疑慮啊就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4175.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4187.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
反正送保訓會也沒有用,保訓會就是光光相護,負責我的長官所以我進來這裡頭,進行相關的申訴、救濟的時候,也不好保訓會也沒什麼聽我說的,我說了也都假說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4189.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4207.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個事情現在保訓會你們應該有聽過這樣的說法嘛你們接下來這樣的一個公務員保障法這樣的一個修法怎麼樣在這個相關譬如說霸凌這樣的一個機制裡頭啊能夠去防範到最後還是出現官官相護 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4210.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4228.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這個官官相護就我們目前的機制其實它也不會有但是因為這是信任問題所以為了解決這個信任問題所以我們在這一次保障法跟安慰辦法的修法裡面其實第一個這個所謂的官官相護其實是不會發生的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4230.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4251.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個被霸凌的人他對機關的申訴或者是他被機關首長霸凌他會必須要上級機關去申訴那他不服以後他來到了保訓會再申訴那保訓會的整個的審議呢是非常公正客觀的所以呢並不會出現說這個有所謂的官官相互的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4251.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4269.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
但是為了讓申訴人能夠更加的放心所以我們有特別一個在安慰辦法第四章通報跟第五章監督的這兩章裡面特別去設計了保訊會會要求各主管機關每年 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4270.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4285.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
彙整他的這個相關的安慰跟霸凌的案件數那如果有異常我們就會再去抽查此外如果保訊會接獲申訴我們自己也可以主動的進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4286.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4306.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好那你們這個後續相關的這些會成立一些委員會嘛剛剛有提到外部專家是我想請問一下這是一個專家庫的概念還是就是這樣一聘就是一年就是這幾個人還是每一次案子就由這一個保訓會去處理這個專家譬如說一次五個專家幾個專家進來現在的設計會是什麼跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4311.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4324.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
保訊會將來在調查這些因果關係的這個審議小組呢他不是 他會依照這個案件的性質還有他主要的這個公務人員他是屬於什麼職系因為這個會涉及到對職場霸凌跟安慰辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4328.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4354.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
有沒有違反的一個界定所以他不是像委員講的他是專任的一聘 聘多久不是我們會用的是人才庫的概念那每一次根據他不同的這個案件的需求會邀請 聘請不同的專業這樣比較能夠符合這個當事人他真正的一個現場的了解好 那這一些所謂的委員也會是公開資訊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4357.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4370.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
資料庫 人才庫是公開的 實際上審議未必要公開可是這一個外界總會覺得說你到底拼的是不是專家你到底拼的是不是能不能符合實際的狀況所以這個人才資料庫會是一個公開資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4377.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4393.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
報告委員目前我們規劃是會是一個公開資訊因為不只是說保訊會在組成審議小組調查案件的時候需要其實現在已經有很多的行政機關來問我們說將來我們安慰辦法開始上路以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4394.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4412.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
在組成這個機關內部的安全衛生防護委員會的時候也需要大量的這個外部的專家學者而且這個範圍包含很多領域什麼心理的法律的然後這個治理的還有那個諮商的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4412.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4433.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
所以我們現在已經擬了這個人才庫的一個設置辦法目前正在擬當中那未來這些願意成為我們專家我們當然要經過訓練然後挑選這是會是一個公開的因為聽起來各機關都希望我們能夠建立這樣一個人才庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4434.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4453.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好那最後請教一下就是這一個保障法我們公務體系裡頭都有約聘僱人員就是說他們是勞保那也在這個規範裡頭嗎還是完全就是一個單位裡頭一個機關裡頭就是有兩組人你們這一組人是適用這個的另外一個適用這個勞動部相關的這個環安會這邊的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4456.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4479.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
是跟委員報告這個就是這一次我們跟勞動部的這個共同的默契就是我們兩邊共同的最大希望就是不要有讓任何一個人被漏掉所以呢我們這些本來政府機關裡面是用治安法的人在霸凌的這個申訴的程序申訴的部分還有調查的部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4480.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4495.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
兩邊的這個制度程序我們就是一套所以我們在102條就會有加上准用但是因為他的身分別不同後端的救濟還是各自回歸原來的法制那一個機關不就要有兩套制度是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4495.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4525.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
目前機關裡面就是這樣因為它的身分別還有跟機關的這個關係契約關係是不一樣那現況也是這樣子的進行但是呢我們這一次至少讓程序上面是一致有往前走了一大步最開始的那一段就是說那個申訴的那個機制申訴防治都是一次的只是到最後關頭的時候是走不同的路徑救濟啦那這個救濟的這個路徑如果我們這個先弄了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4525.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4536.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那勞動部那邊相關的法規也跟上來了是那這樣整個就會比較完整了是好 謝謝你謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4553.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4566.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好 劉秘書長辛苦了這個雖然說我待會有第一個問題我就要先請教您然後之後呢還會再請教蔡主委保証會蔡主委以及權事部的懷懷恤懷次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4570.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4593.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好那麼首先呢我想這個先請教劉秘書長因為本席其實一直都很關心有關於在國家考試裡面的出題委員和命題委員他們的費用調漲的問題就是能夠提高的問題那麼所以我在去年的時候其實就已經詢問過考試院那麼有沒有考慮要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4595.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4622.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這個隨著物價的調整而且我們這是十幾年來都沒有調整過的命廷委員還有月券委員的費用進行合理的調整請問就是考試院現在有在做這方面的規劃了嗎是 謝謝委員長期以來對這個議題的關心剛好跟委員報告就是現在正在進行的考試院的院會其實就已經把這個案子排上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4622.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4646.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我們預計目前的方案應該是用未來兩年時間逐步的把審題命題月卷等等還有事務人員的費用分兩年的順序把它調高那這個案子今天通過之後我們暫時還不會公佈因為依照相關的法規這個要送到行政院去核准 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4647.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4663.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
是 那可以先透露一下大概會調高的幅度是多少嗎因為我們看到就是從明年開始的國考的報名費是調漲25.8%嘛是那麼所以接下來像生命體育費 月券費呢調整的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4664.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4693.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個比例我查一下會後我再提供給委員請問為什麼要兩年才能夠達到你們所謂的要求他應該是分批調整啦然後他希望說不要一下造成考選基金太大的負擔所以他先就委員關心的像命題月卷這個部分會先做調整那有一些市場的事務人員的部分會第二階段會再跟上來所以我們就是說一下調整可能增加的支出會對考選基金造成比較大的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4693.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4718.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
是所以現在還不知道說你明年已經有方案了嗎對我們應該是預定應該明年就會上路了然後隨便提費呢要調漲多少%這個我數字要踩因為我今天資料沒有帶過來好那就麻煩我會後再提供我請考卷部提供給委員好的好的謝謝秘書長然後另外就是說有關於這個預算價的問題因為本席在這個這次我有特別提 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4719.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4742.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
提案要修法公務人員任用法第28條之一然後將原來只有育嬰假請育嬰可以留置庭薪那麼也可以增加就是由育孫也可以留置庭薪我剛其實進來的時候有聽到環區次長有說這個部分似乎不需要修法直接修辦法就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4742.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4765.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
可是呢本席的看法是認為說其實我們應該要把這件事情提升它法律位階但在法律裡面明定那麼未來這個就是這個主管機關的責任你們就應該要依法律來訂定相關的辦法那麼我認為這樣的法律有這樣的法律授權依據那未來行政機關也比較好辦事否則可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4766.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4792.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
不知道會不會換了一個政黨然後又換了一套做法那麼同時這個事實上就算是我們現在明定在法律裡面有預算有預算價相關的事情細則還是由權序部這裡去擬定相關的辦法是考試院還是權序部要去擬定相關的辦法所以我個人認為說這樣的修法還是有必要的那請問次長您的看法您是否同意我的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4793.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4808.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟委員報告就是說那個委員的提案方向我們都支持只是說我們在看這個文字的時候覺得因為嬰就是小孩子的意思就是幼兒的意思那我們也仔細就看過您提案的這個文字內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4808.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4821.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為委員是在意的是我們目前留職聽信辦法上面因為留職聽信辦法也是它的法源依據也是來自於公園任用法的法源依據是它已經有法源依據那您這邊是比較認為說我們有給它設的但書條件覺得這不OK所以我們部裡面也認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4826.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4846.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這個方向是可以尊重的所以我們就認為說或許呢如果在這種情況下這個本法可以不用修正但是我們會把您所在意的這個部分因為那是行政規則我們就直接把它修掉了那這樣就不會那個所謂那個但書那部分就整個拿掉未來它就是完全跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4847.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4862.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
就是育嬰的概念 嬰就是發繁孫當然我們還尊重最後因為這是立法政策的問題就是說基本上方向我們都認為可以去做只是說技術上我們認為我們很快就可以把它促進 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4862.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4866.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
其實次長說明我想就說我們修法的部分因為今天提案了接下來可能也會排審那麼我還是非常希望我們這個案子能夠三讀通過那當然我也很希望全序部就能夠趕快加緊腳步了如果說您說修現在的辦法就可以做的話那就可以趕快來檢討相關的辦法是不是可以放寬那個遇孫的條件那也希望全序部能夠盡速的提出相關辦法的修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4890.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4899.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
好 那麼接下來有關於職場霸凌的部分呢我想要幾個問題就叫這個保訓會主委不好意思 先任總 先是任總喔那麼因為其實從去年以來我們看到有好多機關接連發生主管霸凌公務人員的案件那麼所以呢 任總在去年其實也成立了職場霸凌案件的通報平台那麼本席曾經有函詢任總有關於現在這個通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4918.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4926.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
平台的通報以及處理情形就霸凌平台的通報及處理情形的狀況為何那麼任總在3月27號的時候有回覆給我目前所收到的案件數那麼以及進入調查程序的數量那麼總共有327件收到327件進入調查程序71件然後只有3件是成立職場霸凌案還有138件在處理那本席想問的就是說又三個月過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4948.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4952.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那麼到目前為止有多少件就是你們已經有收了多少件 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4954.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4980.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
跟委員報告我們目前統計到5月31號就是說從我們霸凌平台成立去年12月13號到5月31號我們收件收了485件那目前已經結案的案件有358件那處理中的有79件測案的有48件那成立的呢成立霸凌案件有20件 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4981.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5002.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
已經從3件跳到20件所以代表說你們現在成立這個霸凌通報平台我認為其實是有發揮一些作用的畢竟可以從這個通報平台當中知道到底有多少的公務員覺得說他在職場上面受到霸凌那這個部分的話我也希望說人種能夠儘速的將霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5005.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5022.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
平台處理的結果要做適當的公佈那麼甚至之後成立的案件它的態樣是怎麼樣你可以去識別化但是可以把這些案件可以公佈出來然後讓各機關各公務員都知道如果說有遇到這種職長霸凌的情況是要如何這應該是保訊會的業務嗎還是任總報告委員 對這個其實我們只要審議結果確定以後那 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5032.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5036.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
都會公告在這個我們的這個公開資訊裡面是 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5039.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5056.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
所以這個是就像委員說這是後續的分析什麼的是目前是我們都有在做好的OK好那就希望你們都再努力那麼接下來就是有關於在這次的草案裡面其實有看到不管是19條之一19條之二其實都有針對所謂機關首長經過任地職場霸凌的話那會處罰還那麼當然剛剛黃國昌委員有提到在這草案裡面看起來其實對於機關首長的定義不是很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5068.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5086.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那不仅是机关首长定义不清楚之外还有对于所谓负责人员你负责人员跟机关首长到底有什么区别请问负责人员跟机关首长有什么区别以及负责人员以及机关首长他的涵盖范围到哪边像科长啊局长司长算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5088.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5117.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
跟委員說明機關首長就是 誠如我剛剛這邊所講依照中央機關組織基準法首長他就是明定在這個各機關的組織法裡面的那個只有一個但是負責人他就是是現場的這個狀況所以他可能是從科長他可能到司長他也可能是到可能是主任或者是次長那主要就是負責人是指在公務人員執行職務的現場他有比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5118.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5144.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
高度的關係性然後他代替機關首長在行使這個監督管理的這個角色跟功能的人所以呢這個兩者的差異是不一樣那當然機關首長在特殊的在一些情況底下他也可能就是負責人是順便說未來按照這個主委的意思就是說可能負責人他會有不同層級的而且也可能會有多重的負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5144.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5164.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那麼是不是未來可以就是定立一個類似XOP的這種做法到底在什麼樣的業務底下他的負責人是誰然後他的首長是誰否則的話其實對於很多的這個可能有就是總是公務員裡面有高低階的這樣的一個職等那會不會高職等就認為說我其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5166.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5188.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
很莫名其妙的就被視為是負責人到底所謂的監督關係我覺得這都不是很清楚那麼因此呢本席也希望就是說保訊會在這個部分可以把它定的更清楚或是說未來能夠提供一些相關的案例標準然後可以讓大家有所參考有所依循 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5189.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5217.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
跟委員報告就是各機關都有分層負責明細表那當然機關首長這個如果從這個最廣義來講他就是他可能會被苛責的範圍很多但是呢基本上各機關的這個授權或是這個什麼時候是屬於誰是負責人這件事情都有這個分層負責明細表就會列不過非常謝謝委員的提醒就是說未來我們在指引跟通韓的裡面我們會特別的去強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5218.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5245.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
請各機關要注意這一點 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝翁委員 好 欸那個欸 劉秘書長 因為我看你臉色真的沒有很好你是不是考慮請假 因為我知道沒關係 委員會讓我把這個任務完成 謝謝對嗎 因為我們都知道你真的很有心希望我等一下不申請我再跟委員報告 我再跟您告假好了好 好 好 因為我看你臉色我希望說你都真的應該有慢慢恢復好 好 好 謝謝秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5247.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5261.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那接下來我們請翁曉琳委員代理主席好 現在有請吳宗憲委員發這個諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5267.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5295.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好首先我是因為昨天我們國民黨有許曉欣委員他有提到一個問題就是陳菊院長的問題那我想說這邊就順便剛好今天我們在討論這有關公務員的部分那我想先也把一些問題提出來問一下那當然我也是希望說那個陳菊院長能夠早日康復我想請教一下就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5299.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5327.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
人事 人總這邊我想請問一下就是像院長級別的像這種政務官他這個人事的問題這個是由誰來主管監察 以監察院來講的話這個監察院院長應該是總統任命的職權對對 任命那我是說他一些相關的一些公務體系上面他有關人事的部分這個是由誰來主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5329.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5352.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
目前現行來講的話 應該還是在考試院考試院 好 謝謝秘書長我想請教一下就是因為昨天我們有委員提出來說這個院長他已經請病假五個月了我想了解一下這過往有沒有主觀因病請病假到五個月這麼久的紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5357.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5380.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以我印象沒有這個印象但是是那正次知道嗎沒有好因為現在是有人提出來這個問題因為他畢竟是主觀嘛那主觀他已經請病假五個月了那所以我這個問題好像全國很多人一直在反覆問但因為我自己對這一塊的法規我也不了解所以我今天才會來請教這個問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5385.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5399.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好 那沒關係喔 那如果大家不是那麼清楚那有沒有這個規定就是說 擔任主觀院長級的他們病假他們請病假時限能夠多長 有沒有這個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5404.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5417.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我跟那個委員報告那依照公園請假規則我們那個病假是有28天那如果你請滿病假以後還沒辦法恢復就是說還沒辦法來上班的話那你就可以申請延長病假 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5418.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5434.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那延長變價時間是兩年就是兩年你可以請一年的時間那如果你身體好了有醫師證明說你可以回來上班那你就可以回來上班那目前這套制度是全國公務員都全部適用的以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5434.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5448.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
好的 這個我知道就是我自己擔任過公務員大概這個制度我也了解但是在五院裡面一個院的主觀有這個狀況的時候所以說我們今天才來請教一下看有沒有不同的規定好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5449.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5473.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好 那接下來我們就回到今天本日的主題我想請教一下秘書長我們其實法律有一個 最近我們要討論一個一流客扣的問題我想請教一下秘書長如果說公務員因為一流客扣他可能涉犯的是貪污罪條例第六條或是刑法129條 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5475.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5503.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那如果說因為這樣而被判有罪的話那這個有沒有可能會不會影響到他的將來的公務員或是退休金的勤領這個部分我看看請全序部跟排斥來回答公務員報告就是說如果依照公務員任用法的規定如果公務員被判有期徒刑確定的話這是會喪失公務員身分以上報告是那會影響到退休金的勤領嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5506.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5535.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
會啊 會影響啊這邊我想說 這邊就是做一個論述 一個確定就是說 因為我之前有對一個一流客扣罪告發那我這邊也是要警告所有的公務員如果說涉犯一流客扣的話 那將來判決確定假設判有罪 萬一判有罪這個會影響到官職還有退休金而且這個追訴權時效還蠻長的這個部分我在這邊跟各位先報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5537.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5558.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那我再來請問一下 就我們這次修法我們這次修法 我想請教秘書長這次修法 其實我在意一個東西就是外部監督的問題我想我去年11月還12月那個時候我也一直提到 就是因為我們現在公務員為什麼這幾年報考公務員的人數越來越少這是一個數字上就可以顯現出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5560.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5576.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
是不是社會因為其實在這段時間我覺得政治上面的運作有一點刻意把公務員打成是米蟲啦然後退休公務員更是米蟲很多人他其實是在營造這樣的觀感所以造成社會上很多人對於公務員不是那麼的友善 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5576.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5593.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那像我們都是公務體系出來的我們就很清楚說達到某一個位置以上的升遷其實他看的是政治傾向啦這個早就凌駕於文官的專業我想大家都認公務員啦都在公務體系也都能夠心靈神會我今天在說什麼那我的意思是 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5594.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5612.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
像這段時間這樣子到底我們營造了什麼樣的工作環境給這些公務員還有現在的公共衛生裡面講得很簡單嘛就是職場的問題也是影響健康的一個重大的社會致病因素我們公共衛生領域的人都有提過這個見解啦所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5615.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5635.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
既然公務員就相當於民間企業裡面的那些勞工那這樣我們對於勞工我們對於私人企業我們這麼要求他們要重視勞權的話那對於公務員我想也是要去重視他這個權利那還有就是公部門其實一直以來有一個問題就是當他受到一些不利的對待的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5636.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5665.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
他的申訴管道通常都是在部門內部或向長官但是他今天面對的可能是來自於長官的霸凌啊長官的要求啊那這時候他該怎麼辦這個就是我們有意見的地方所以最近有一些公務員的團體希望說他希望公務員乾脆一併適用那個那個職安法好了啦職安法他覺得反而對於勞工的保障是非常的完整那我想請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5666.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5682.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
民主黨您是否認同在有關那個我們草案第19條的處罰還有安慰辦法草案第5條的防護委員會等等的你認不認同我們引入多一點的外部委員來擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5685.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5711.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個方向跟我們現在安慰辦法的修法的方向也是一致的所以為什麼在那個調查事故的時候希望有二分之一以上外部成員在這個防護委員會這邊有三分之一是專家學者專家好那我現在跟那個民進黨報告因為我們保障草案十九之一條啦其實我看了一下那個十九之一條草案他還是由上級機關來監督而不是由獨立的外部 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5713.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5742.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
機制來監督所以說這個到底有沒有辦法有效的保障公務員這是我懷疑的一個點那當然啦你那個安慰辦法您剛剛有提到外部的學者不得少於三分之一就您剛剛提到但是他的主要受理的還是由副首長所召集機關的副首長所召集那這個是不是真的能夠有效的獨立我想說這部分我再提供給民主黨參考一下就這個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5745.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5760.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
其實我們公務員都有一個救濟的機制就是保訓會所以例如說霸凌如果申訴那不成的話如果不服的話再申訴可以到會在保訓會這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5761.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5787.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好的但是至少機關內部是第一層嘛那第一層我們能夠的話當然是給予它完整的保護因為我自己看了一下我們對勞工的保護就是越來越完整譬如說我們那個勞安的問題的時候我們有那個勞動部有那個勞安署啊然後而且有勞安署跟地方政府甚至是一些民間團體他們組成的外部監督機制所以我就說公務員的保障似乎遠低於勞工對於勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5788.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5800.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是如果是勞工的話他的第一層還是在企業內部但是後面的救濟會到勞動部門現在我們公務員也是一開始就是在機關內救濟的部分到保訓會其實是同樣的結構至少我們機關內部我們在審查的時候能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5805.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5834.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
把外部的監督者或外部學者或他機關的代表能夠引入更多的代表來我覺得這才能更能保障公務員是 謝謝方教練否則很多真的很多這個這個他職場的霸凌等等他是來自於自己內部或者是長官我想這個是現在實務上面偶爾會發生的那另外我再請教一下就職場霸凌的這個定義的問題啦因為我們職場霸凌是不是有一個持續性我們有個定義是要持續性對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5837.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5839.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那這個持續性現在有一個問題我想請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5841.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5869.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
當然過往有很多判決啦以前的判例現在是改成判決嘛很多判決也有提到持續性這個概念但是如果今天是一篇文章霸凌某一個人在網路上面PO上去之後但是我們又沒有權利叫他下架那這個是不是屬於持續性的霸凌持續性其實我們也不完全以持續性為絕對的標準那這個部分定義的部分因為這個主委比較了解是不是請主委來寫出說明麻煩主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5871.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5890.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
跟委員報告就是您問到的這個真的是很關鍵的議題就是說我們這樣子陸續開了這麼多場的這個各方的代表跟法制的徵詢那到底要不要只限於這個持續性或者是說一次但是他已經足以造成可能相當於其他人家持續性 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5891.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5911.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
更大的傷害那最後呢基於就是說這個各方的代表還有包含這個我們的代表裡面不只是法學者還有很多很多是基層的公務人員他們認為說應該要把這種一次性的要納入那重點就是霸凌呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5911.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5926.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
過去當然法理跟判決的確就是像委員所提到的都是以持續性但是現在霸凌的形態有越來越多種所以一次如果就已經是造成很大的生命甚至身心的傷害那也應該要入法所以這個就是後來為什麼我們把這個定義裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5929.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5949.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
不只是只有持續性一次性我明白他納入的原因以上好 那主委我這邊就再補充一下因為我國啊我國它不像歐洲它有一個遺忘權的這個法制概念所以說歐洲它有遺忘權你可以主張自己的遺忘權要求網路上面或新聞上面下架某些過往的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5949.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5968.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但因為我國目前沒有所以我如果在我們網路上面PO一個東西它的影響可能是五年十年二十年或甚至當時他這個記者他下的這個標可能只是當時的社會的風氣可能三個月後其實大家發現狀況不是這樣但是這個東西會持續在網路上面讓大家搜尋的到 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5969.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5990.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那有時候有一些刻意的人他就會拿這個來當作武器來修理他的同事或是政治對手等等的會有這個問題所以是不是在這個所謂的持續性這個部分能夠以歷史或是列舉等等的方式來去做一個補充就是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5991.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6010.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
呃 不是說持續性不重要 而是有某些狀況他的行為雖然是一次性他是即成犯 直接就做完了但是呢 他可能造成的影響是非常的長遠那這個再 可能麻煩用歷史或列舉等等的方式去補充這一塊在這部分主委報告謝謝委員是 好 那那個 最後我想說齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6012.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6027.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我覺得我還是一個重點就是我希望對於公務員的保障能夠增加因為只有強大的這些公務員好的人才來國家才會越來越強大因為我們今天不管誰執政我都希望國家是強大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6028.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6049.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那這幾年的公務員的入局其實來報考的人越來越少我認為說這個其實是我們要去思考的一個隱憂啦那最後請教如果機關違反的話這個機關如果被裁罰請問一下會不會主動公開告知大眾那如果不公開我們要怎麼落實避免公務員被霸凌 主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6050.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6072.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟委員報告因為這個各機關還有我們自己保訓會會去調查所以呢這個報告呢在安慰辦法裡面其實就有這個明白寫著就是他必須是要上網的就是說那保訓會目前的規劃呢也是當然就是說也會傾向是把它這個公開因為這樣才能真的像 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6072.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6102.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
符合委員所提到的啦這個那種效果才會讓擴散大家才會更加的警惕好 以上謝謝是 不違反個資以及其他法令的情況下我們還是希望資訊能夠透明如果機關首長被開罰會不會影響到未來升遷跟委員報告 機關首長如果他是政務人員我想他政治責任就應該就是看大家社會輿論跟任用他的人的判斷那一般的常任文官呢 基本上呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6104.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6122.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個以現在的狀況一定是影響升遷的啦因為他會留下記錄以上好那沒問題那謝謝主委那有什麼問題我們再忙主委能夠日後我們能跟你們多溝通我反正是希望公民的保障非常非常重要希望人才都來為國家服務好謝謝各位各位辛苦了好謝謝吳宗憲委員剛剛吳宗憲委員有提到有關於那個員工職場80 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6132.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6150.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
處理小組或者在安慰辦法裡面所講的調查小組因為調查小組裡面它有一定的比例外部的成員比例要大於二分之一可是事實上我們有看到有些機關裡面的員工職場霸凌處理小組裡面的成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6153.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6164.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
外部委員的比例其實是沒有大於二分之一的或者是說根本沒有明定那麼這個部分的話我也希望考試院或者是保訓會這裡可以去先通盤盤點一下各個部會機關裡面他們自己本身所定的員工職場霸凌處理小組裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6170.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6191.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
他們的外部委員的比例以及人數是多少譬如說以我這邊有看到就是像司法院他根本也沒有定所謂的外部委員那麼這個部分的話可能要都了解整個機關的情況之後我們再來這個細緻化討論相關的這個外部成員比例會比較妥當好麻煩好那接下來請審發會委員發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6203.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6231.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個目前這個在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的一個共識希望能夠盡速的完善立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6232.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6252.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善我看今天雖然我們要審的草案非常多包括考試院、貓民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6253.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6280.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那我想大概這些修正草案大概大家這個除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多最主要就是第一個要提升這個這個讓這個機關讓這國家附有這個防止公務人員這個免受不法侵害霸凌不法侵害的這樣的要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6282.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6302.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6303.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6317.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6320.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6325.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個也是第19條的規定裡面那接下來相關配套的這些懲處啦19條之一懲處啦那這個罰緩啦那還有這個機關責任等等這些相關強化這個機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6338.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6364.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6366.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6382.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6384.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6405.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6413.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6436.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們又以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個霸淫的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6440.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6466.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這邊來是不是我們這個法條的內容是是嗎 這個持續性那我除了這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6467.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6477.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟我們報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6493.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6511.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6512.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6531.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組 外部機關他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6541.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6548.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6549.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6575.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證?是好,這個明明就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大,對不對?是不是這樣?是好,這是第一個啦那第二個接下來我們在這個有關這個職場霸凌的這個申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6576.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6603.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分一個是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者他的申訴的期限是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6605.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6625.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有一點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6631.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6658.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好這部分我們等一下逐條的時候我需要逐條之前說明清楚是好請跟委員報告這個就是權勢的跟非權勢呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關他本身這個人呢他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6660.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6669.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6687.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6700.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6703.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6729.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重一公元懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6730.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6747.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處的責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6753.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6780.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我們要知道我們的公務人員相關的法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確性原則有所抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6783.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6801.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6807.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6829.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6832.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6858.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6860.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6874.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個秘書長我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員好 接下來請吳思堯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6895.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6909.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
好 謝謝主席建信秘書長你現在的狀況真的要保重身體喔真的平常忙於公務也要關心自己的健康真的很不捨我們剛剛都嚇壞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6911.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6928.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
你應該也要沒有吃早餐的我也沒吃早餐會貧血我們要吃點早餐再上工那今天我們在討論職場反霸凌而且是公務體系的法制化事實上如果要問我們的公務體系而且有來立法院備詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6929.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6948.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
其實立法委員我們也真的要自我檢視我們恐怕往往成為造成公務部門同仁身心靈壓力很大的一個厄緣我們希望問政大家都能夠專業理性然後一起來彼此尊重那今天回到我們的主題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6949.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6958.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
我在整理資訊的時候我赫然發現考選部有一個統計從2014到2024這10年來公務人員報考的人數從354308位一直下降到2014年只剩下166000位來報考等於是10年報考公務人員的人數遭腰斬所以鐵飯碗不再熱門鐵飯碗不再是鐵飯碗了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6978.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7006.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那考試員有沒有觀察到這樣子的狀況跟委員報告就是說的確有這樣的一個狀況那也跟委員說明就是大概公務員報考人數他如果長期來看的話大概在民國100年左右是一個高峰前面比較低後面也比較低那但是現在當然有各種因素包含少子化包含民間的就業機會增加因為經濟發展的狀況那民間薪資的誘因等等選擇也更多了有更多的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7007.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7036.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以這個的確有這樣的現象我們也有一直在注意跟觀察但我們還是需要下一頁持續的招募人才而且要留住人才再加上打造一個友善的職場缺一不可這就是我們在面對我們無論如何我們看到台灣的人才多元願意往私部門服務也都是好事但是我們也希望能夠有更多有志於公眾事務的朋友們願意投入公務體系的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7037.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7062.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那這幾年來我們流財攬財友善職場做了很多加薪減壓打造職場的更friendly這個缺一不可那我特別要肯定賴清德總統提出來的6年50億的全民心理健康任性計畫要強化支持現在公務體系的EAP的支持方案我們要持續做下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7063.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7086.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
而加薪我們這幾年來從蔡總統到賴總統四度為公務體系加薪加薪14%反觀馬英九前總統只加薪了一次3%那現在因為立法院在刪減總預算以至於我們的薪水加薪3%今年遭到延宕目前應當都陸續發放了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7092.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7107.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那加薪14%我們如果經濟發展好稅收增加我們持續的為公務同仁來增加薪水增加大家投入公務體系的誘因下一頁好剛剛講的加薪之外第二個就是減壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7108.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7122.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那我也在利用這一次的機會我謝謝考試院謝謝全序部思堯一路倡議的公務體系的新理假從校園然後開始延伸到公務體系你們現在正在修正請假規則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7125.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7148.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好我做出提醒我谢谢你们回应了我的倡议现在给予公务体系的身心调试假公务同仁是每年三日我支持但是在公务人员请假规则第三条的第三项我希望你们再回去听一下因为你们现在这个条文的写法是意思是说还是先去请试假啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7149.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7176.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
然後呢如果市價請滿了那身心價再來說啦好像還是這個方向我非常在乎的是身心調市價它不是只是一個價可以放幾天是我們國家藉由這個價別能夠去掌握公務體系的同仁們我們可以follow可以追蹤誰去請了身心調市價可能他的家庭他的情感 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7176.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7191.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
他的交友狀況或是工作壓力產生了我們需要協助的部分所以在請假規則第三條第三項的部分是不是可以請詮釋從詮釋部再思考斟酌一下好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7191.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7205.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
跟委員報告就是說我們基本上請身心架是不需要要先請其他架作為前提但是因為委員您剛剛這樣講就是說我想您的質詢我們去檢視一下那文字會不會產生這個問題謝謝您我們會去再看一下會不會產生誤解否則一般就會覺得它是一個最後最後然後請滿了之後再額外我想這個意義上就不對了好嗎我們對於身心調適的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7218.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7245.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
反映在你們的請假規則的修訂好我都尊重也感謝但希望能夠做到更好不要為德不足好下一頁那今天的主題就是霸凌防治的三支箭今天我希望保障法可以快速的大家有共識能夠送出委員會那之後還有考機法針對霸凌加害者這個記過的這些懲處是第二關考機法什麼時候可以送 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7246.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7260.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們已經送了已經送了好那希望我們下週中瑞雄招委可以儘速來排審那安慰辦法其實是整個公務體系的霸凌防治的執行面向都在安慰辦法目前的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7261.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7269.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
行政院會選送回來考試院應該在昨天送回來所以目標7月1號應該沒有問題嗎目標我們目前暫定應該定於7月1號發布因為也公告一段時間我也希望立法院的委員們我們這麼投入霸凌防治在公務體系如果對於安慰辦法有任何具體的建議都可以在這段時間趕快提供給我們的考試部門能夠有正向的意見就採納 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7287.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7311.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那基本上缺一不可 保障法 考機法 安慰辦法我們都希望在這個會期 七月底之前都能夠完備這是我們共同的目標 下一頁萬事起頭難 再難也要做五大面向的保障法 民進黨團 包括吳斯堯本人我都全力支持 我都全力支持 下一頁但是呢 有幾個問題垂詢一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7313.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7333.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
霸凌防護不破網人力的量能要補足啊以後保訓會你的責任重大一個是人才一個是人力我先講人力喔你們保訓會的員額有沒有因應新的霸凌防治保障法的修訂之後因為你們大量的投入員額有沒有給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7336.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7346.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
跟委員報告 足夠的人力跟委員報告 謝謝委員這麼關心這個很重要的這個量能問題那我們之前有去這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7347.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7375.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
人事總署有去跟人事總署蘇仁市長提這個問題我們也有給了一個很合理的暫時提出你們也不敢自己大開口嗎因為現在是給你們幾個給我們幾個希望爭取幾位因為我們自己也盤點我們內部有一些同仁本來就是具勞動背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7376.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7385.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
所以呢再加上我們的處也會我們先行整併啦這是一般機關在申請原額的時候一定要做的所以呢經過盤點以後呢我們是去跟這個蘇仁市長說我們希望能夠有這個20位但是當然這個是我們很理想的狀態所以呢當然蘇仁市長他基於這個中央原額基準法還有要恪守這個立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7401.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7419.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對於員額的這個控管嘛這是立法院過去以前的決議所以他目前給了我們覺得現階段我們剛開始上路應該是可以啦先給十位進員額十位先求有再求好十位好這是有關人力的部分好 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7419.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7445.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那我覺得以後如果上路之後可能大家也在這個制度的運行更有經驗可能人力的量能那一來可能是大家上手了人力可能不需要那麼多但也有可能因為相關的案例暴增顯現更需要人力我們都希望人事總署可以來支持那第二個是人才因為我們都要建置很多的專家委員會要增加霸凌防制的專業人才你的專家學者資料庫要協助各級政府啊各公務機關你們怎麼進行跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7448.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7460.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
就是目前我們已經有在鑽你那個人就是專家學者人才庫的設置要點好那這個部分呢我們也會去這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7462.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7485.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
教育部 衛福部 還有勞動部因為他們本來也有一些專業的部分其實校園也很多對 就是校園霸凌的部分所以這是主要三大部會他們的人才庫已經有建置而且是建置得很完整那我們會去跟他們請益同時因為這當中很多的專家學者他的性質是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7486.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7502.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以我們會藉由這個部分然後跨部會來協力所以人力是重要人才是重要的這才能夠讓真正的執行能夠穩健然後最後剛剛我聽到夏業最後希望說今天委員會能夠來支持民進黨團會提出幾個修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7505.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7511.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
第一個修正動議就是回應剛剛審發會委員一直在垂詢的要明定應負責人員的定義要來落實明確性所以說民進黨團會提出是9條之一第二項對於所謂的應負責人員細指機關首長或於該工作場所中代表機關首長實質執行管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7527.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7530.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之人好盡可能用這個條文來補強讓他更明確第二個呢第102條第三項在申訴適用的範圍也要明確化也希望委員會能夠支持民進黨團的修正動力好最後一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7543.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7546.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那針對整個安全衛生事故審議小組的這個建制民進黨團提出兩個修正動議一個是授權給保訓會去訂定相關的規範針對後續的審任採取的原則審閱的程序跟組成由保訓會定之我希望在條文裡頭增列這個讓你們好做事有法源那19條之二的第三項呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7569.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7571.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
強化調查權跟裁罰權也就是未來你們要去強化真的要走到公務機關去進行這個反霸凌的防治也就是所謂的檢查檢查工作要落實我希望能夠入法這個部分我想我們考試院應該都支持吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7588.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7603.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
協助你們把法更完備好最後有一點點這個心聲想要表達一下我跟培餘過去都是在教育文化委員會思堯是從2016年上任我們優先從校園法辦反霸凌上手 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7604.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7623.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
因為我們非常的遺憾校園的霸凌事件平仁當我們檢視了法規才發現校園欠缺反霸凌的處理的機制所以我們循過去在校園建置這個性騷性侵害相關的性平 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7624.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7651.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
機制的整個制度的運作我們好不容易好不容易在校園催生了全國一體試用各級學校的校園反霸凌防治準則這是我們努力從2016大概努力到前兩年剛剛完備但是也有人在倡議校園是不需要反霸凌的專法但這個恐怕如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7653.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7681.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
如果要等一個反霸凌的專法才能夠去執行校園的反霸凌那恐怕要等很久的時間所以我們都compromise先用一個霸凌防治準則在校園那同樣的在公務體系因為一個遺憾的事件讓我們更正視了公務體系要能夠有明確的公務體系反霸凌的作為那我絕對支持從保障法先行 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7682.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7701.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
保障法先行,也許有人認為要一個專法,或有人認為要適用職安法,跟私部門一起管理,但是那就是賣戶期啦,那就是我們要抓漏,再來搞都更,先抓漏,所以我希望今天朝野各黨都能夠有高度的共識,讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7703.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7727.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
保障法今天完成審議我也希望不需要送協商也不需要去表決我們可以理性的正向的來討論法案然後讓他在這個會期完成立法趕快上路讓公務體系反霸凌可以做得更好好 建新秘書長身體健康一切平安這是對您的提醒也是對我自己的提醒我們下次一起吃完早餐再上工好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7732.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7734.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
接下來請陳培宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7751.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7766.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好 謝謝主席那我們就先跟保訓會對話好剛剛思瑤跟市長有先提了關於我們的修正動議其實就是關於學校跟醫療機構的部分那因為剛剛您已經做了說明那我想我們後續就往這個方向一起努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7767.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7796.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
不過確實我覺得今天非常重要的事情是我們看到相關公務人員的保障法安慰辦法他跟職安法各自做了保護如同思瑤剛剛說的我們先抓牢所以如果這件事情我們今天我們很希望今天在後續的審查上面可以非常順利往這裡一起努力那所以我想學校的部分公立學校的部分尤其是這樣那接下來是醫療機構的部分所以如果這個修正都已經沒有問題是不是今天我們就往這樣方向修 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7798.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7803.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
謝謝委員 這個沒有問題這樣更清楚明確了那這個也跟教育部或者是跟衛福部討論過嗎跟委員報告這個有跟這個勞動部討論過當時這個這一條102條呢當時請這個相關單位來的時候衛福部跟這個教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7821.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7834.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
是沒有特別提出來但是後來但是在兩天前我們有特別去跟教育部討論這件事情是那他們也希望能夠在102條這個地方能夠很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7835.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7853.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
去顯示出來他們是適用職安法的以上說明 謝謝沒問題 好 那既然各個部會都討論過我想那就不會只是我們閉門造局所以我們後續往這裡努力好 我們來看下一張在稍早的時候也有委員提到關於這個人事總署統計的霸凌案通報平台的執行狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7854.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7871.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
不管是已經成案的撤案的或者是已經結案的或者是後續調查之中其實我在上一次的質詢當中也跟你們討論到關於所謂的外聘人員這件事情的重要性那我猜想你們應該已經去做了相關研究剛剛斯堯也有提到我們來看下一張那 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7873.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7894.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
這個是教育部霸凌防治準則所做的經驗那他們甚至做這個通報平台的流程讓所有有關事涉的當事人都可以依循著這個流程去做所有的通報那我知道你們在所謂外部人才資料庫這邊會採寄跟教育部或是衛福部的合作但是我要順便一帶提醒喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7895.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7921.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
處理流程的建置也很重要因為你們的職場樣態跟教育部或是衛福部那邊是不一樣的所以我們很樂我們非常開心聽到你們說會有外部調查小組相關委員也會有外聘同時會確保他們的專業職能真的可以協助處理公務人員職場的霸凌但是這個流程也要請你們回應一下目前我們開始往這個方向規劃也就是專屬於公務人員這個申報平台的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7925.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7954.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
跟委員報告就是目前呢這個是我們目前還在進行規劃中的一個部分但是當然還沒有規劃到這麼仔細那我們會這個遵照這個委員所提供的教育部的這個調查的這個這個看起來非常非常整密因為場域可能不同對象不同但是我們會盡可能的讓他整個的這個申報還有包含整個調查是盡可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7954.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7958.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
周延、縝密然後呢外部監督的這個比重 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7960.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7974.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
高一點還有那個公開透明那這個我們謝謝委員提供這一張我們回去會把它拿來看一看可以再跟教育部討論但是我剛剛已經提醒大家就是因為職場的樣態不一樣生態也不一樣所以它這個流程絕對不會長得一樣那如何設計出而且公務機關其實樣態也很不一樣啦所以我認為這會對你們後續是非常非常大的挑戰除了建置所謂外部委員資料庫之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7985.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8004.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那另外也想要跟保訓會這邊分享一個我們目前從教育現場收集到的另外一個可能你們未來也會遇到的困境那目前教育單位已經在處理了我們跟國家署討論過是什麼樣態呢就是當外部委員他專業化並且資料庫化之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8007.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8023.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有一些學校的案件可能就固定習慣找某些外部委員配合結果他就意外變成某一種外部委員產業鏈也就是說開始有現場的被指稱為加害者或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8024.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8046.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
受害者他們會開始提出另外一個控訴就是當這些外部委員變成習慣性的協助某些學校一定要成案或是習慣性的協助某些學校一定不要成案甚至還有人開始打廣告他標榜著我這個外部委員可以同時帶著很多外部委員協助學校去處理案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8047.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8057.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那因為在調查過程當中撰寫報告過程當中或者是這些過程當中都會產生費用所以就開始有人擔心因為確實現場有開始出現這樣的廣告就開始有人擔心會不會這個調查產業鏈我們要怎麼防弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8064.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8082.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那關於教育部那邊的狀況我們已經把很多收集到的陳情跟個案回報給教育部那教育部也非常積極在處理跟調查我們感謝教育部在這件事情上非常正向那這邊就把相關的可能性先提供給保訓會我想做未來的防備非常非常的重要好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8084.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8102.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好那接下來要請全序部好辛苦了我想跟您討論一下因為目前九月份運動部成立在即那從運動部我們辦公室最多關懷的焦點其實是兒少那目前在運動部的相關業務當中會跟兒少有關的會是全民運動署 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8103.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8132.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
還有適應運動司甚至他跟教育部有接軌的學校體育有很多業務也會落在運動部裡頭那想要跟全序部這邊討論我想我就是先做一個友善的提醒目前體育署已經公開招聘非常多的相關人員那應該是目前網站上我們看到已經開了80個職缺80個非常非常多那未來他們要逐年增加到400位 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8134.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8160.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那目前的體育署只有100位那再考80位然後要想辦法逐年補足到400位我們非常擔心一件事情我剛講了這麼多因為他會有大量的兒少業務落在未來的運動部當中那我們知道其實在很多的公務人員離開現場的原因可能是因為他有相關暴力的事情或是他有不適任的各種的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8160.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8179.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
然後於是他就被迫離開公務機關那甚至還有犯了相關兒少法可是他可能不是永久被停聘喔他可能只是暫時停聘幾年或者是暫時多久多久他還是有機會重新回到公務機關來interview這些事這個職缺,對嗎?我的擔心是對的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8182.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8210.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
是的 如果他他本來就有公務人員資格那因為某些原因離開那他事實上是還有權利來應徵這個工作他沒錯 他有權利我們當然要保障他的工作權可是我們看下一張那如果我們希望進到運動部為這些兒少政策服務的公務人員他們在相關的認知上必須有對於兒少建立正確的認知導致於他們可以做出正確的政策判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8211.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8233.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那我們可不可以有沒有機會參考教師法因為教師法在面對公務人員的免職跟懲戒後的處理它其實是有相關比較積極的條件相關設計例如說犯了學校性品的問題或者是受到兒童兒少性剝削防治條例犯罪的可能性還有曾經有體罰霸凌學生或者是犯了相關兒少法 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8236.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8257.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這些他被放在教師法裡面積極的設定這些人是不能再進到教育工作場域跟兒童跟青少年一起工作我不確定我先說我不確定全序部可不可以做這樣積極的條件設定我今天就是拿出來跟你們討論但是因為時間有限我想這個提醒是針對運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8258.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8269.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8271.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8276.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以你們可以做相關的演繹嗎我跟委員報告一下我們公務員都有他的履歷資料表過去他的行為因為某些原因譬如說被懲戒懲處都有那個事蹟寫在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8293.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8308.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那我們會提醒那個運動部的人事單位未來再禁用這些人的時候仔細審閱他的那個履歷表尤其是剛剛委員提到他如果是離職在任的要去了解他當年離職在任的原因是什麼因為這個事實上都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8310.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8318.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
這個人事資料的歷程軌跡在那我們會謝謝委員您的提醒那我們會因為他目前都還在進行中那我們會特別再跟那個運動部負責這方面業務的人事主管同仁我們會特別提醒他在這方面更加仔細對因為這個未來其實沒有太未來他們目前已經開缺80個我理解是好那就拜託全市部我會提醒他們好那也拜託之後我們辦公室會再跟你們積極的討論當然我們也有已經在提醒運動部了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8339.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8363.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那最後一個是關於公務人員任用法實施細則你們已經做了公告這個預告那這個版本其實跟二月的版本有一些差異那有一些基層同仁的反應我想你們應該是清楚跟知道他們對於這個預告細則相關出來可能有一些他們的疑慮他們認為他們很多聲音沒有被採納但我想我今天就是做一個友善的提醒希望後續你們在搭配修法的時候可以把很多的聲音一併考慮進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8365.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8385.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
謝謝委員的提醒因為事實上我們目前在修正的方向跟我們原來最早的方向是一致的是因為我們在我們在這個草案出來的時候很多的機關特別我們必須要考量的譬如說那些花東地區、平野地區他們也都有很強烈建議所以我們事實上一樣還是目前的跟我們原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8386.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8414.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
的設計方式是一樣那個三個月加三個月原來本身就是這樣只是說最後如果說你因為有偏遠地區等等這些你最多也就是三個月所以還是跟原來的總時數是一樣那這部分我們也理解就是說希望在機關中央跟地方政府在人力業務推動上的需要以及在同人需求之間我們要有一個平衡是那我們我們目前這樣還在因為這是法律公告還在公告中對 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8414.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8436.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以我們也是在收集各方意見那最後我們會再把盡量朝大家都可以認為不會都可以的方向來做處理對 所以我剛剛說只是做一個友善的提醒不過聽到您很正向的回應就是你們確實有在收集基層人員的聲音而且考慮到台灣偏鄉跟非偏鄉的樣態的差異好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席好 接下來就請羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8445.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8454.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那麼我在這邊先做一個會議程序的宣告在羅志祥委員詢答完畢之後我們就先休息五分鐘然後之後再請莊越雄委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8456.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8478.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
主席 我們在場的委員跟官員首先還是先跟我們的劉秘書長質疑一下身體還是最重要所以待會質詢的話我會主要問我們的保訓會的主委但是如果秘書長您許可範圍內要補充的話也歡迎所以我大概可能就主要是問我們的保訓會主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8479.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8494.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那麼本次公務人員保障法修法那預計要比照職業安全衛生法正式納入職場霸凌的定義嘛那因此首先我想要請教我們主委你覺得我們現在定義是指說 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8496.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8523.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
職場霸凌職本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會逾越職務上正當合理範圍持續持續五路言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性的不友善工作環境致公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那我想請教主委這個定義你覺得是否足夠明確讓公家機關對於職場霸凌申訴是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8524.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8548.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
成案而且消除了舉證上的困難謝謝委員跟委員報告就是說因為這個有關職場霸凌的定義其實有非常非常多的不太一樣那但是呢我們去整理了這個還有經過很多的法治徵詢那也參裁了這個勞動部的這個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8548.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8567.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那以目前來講如果說能不能夠具體作為機關的參採那我想這當中的很多的這些部分包含就是這個漁業職務上正當合理範圍那這個在公務現場是可以判斷的出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8568.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8593.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那歧視、侮辱、言行或其他方式、敵意、脅迫、冒犯等這些其實是可以有一個通念可以是去顯示它是可以的那當然委員我想委員要提醒我們的是說那如果在不同的案例當中會不會造成機關它可能有判讀上的困難那跟委員報告我們目前呢已經著手在建立就是根據過去的這個職場霸凌的這個成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8596.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8608.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
不成立的案件已經在分析而且會著手進行更可以操作的指引所以這個是以上兩點跟委員報告好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8609.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8626.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那我還是要說以目前定義來看 我覺得法律不明確的問題還是存在的那我想請教一下主委 你知道國際勞工組織在2022年通過的安全與健康工作環境基本公約它對職場暴力跟霸凌的定義是什麼 您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8632.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8660.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我沒有很清楚 那請委員教導公約是載明職場中的暴力跟騷擾包括可能導致身心傷害的行為做法或威脅無論是否一次或持續發生但是草案裡面它的第一段主要是要把它定義為所謂的職場霸凌要件是持續那這個部分跟國際標準有差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8661.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8686.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
定義也有講了一句啦就是說情節重大者不以持續發生為必要那這是一個例外的條款可是現在來看什麼叫情節重大它的標準是什麼我想請教一下那個主委那這個可以概略說一下什麼叫情節重大嗎你怎麼會去怎麼去在不同的情節當中來去做所謂的判斷這我講的不明確的問題啦根文報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8691.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8719.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
情節重大當然他這個就是透過這個當事人申訴人當事人他的舉證然後他說他造成了怎麼樣子的一個身心傷害那這基本上呢他在提申訴的時候一定會有這個相關的這個醫生的證明等等那這是第一個第二個就是說什麼叫情節重大舉個例子來講如果今天有一個就是某 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8720.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8737.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這個某甲那他可能是主管然後呢他對某以就是就一次性的一連串的這個辱罵然後呢甚至於摔公文然後甚至就是用了一些然後導致了那一次性的創傷就造成了他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8738.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8759.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
這一次 就即使一次 但是他那個已經是超乎常人可以接受就是我們講通念可以接受的那導致這個人呢 他可能開始這個失眠然後害怕去上班 然後等等的那造成很多很多的身心症 甚至開始懷疑自己的能力那這個當然就是屬於這種情節 這個重大者以上跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8761.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8780.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我覺得剛剛那個主委講了很多啦但是真的實際判準我覺得就很多蠻主觀也不容易去去做一個客觀的判準那這是為什麼那個公約裡面他就直接原則性是強調不論是一次還是持續發生他不以所謂情節重大做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8781.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8810.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
例外的勢力的規範這一點其實在立法例上我覺得還是可以參考那又想請教一下過去五年這個2020年到2024年那根據保訓會的職場霸凌保障案件統計那總共是有83件職場霸凌通報嘛對不對我的得到數據是這樣跟委員報告83件呢是指我們已經做成的決定對霸凌通報啦沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8811.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8834.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
就是那個是再申訴的部分就是他機關端他不服以後他再申訴到保訊會來進行再申訴的案件我大概列舉一下樣態其實包括所謂的威脅考機宜等啊遭機關懲處同仁肢體攻擊語言霸凌不當工作指派不當那個或威脅調動不當不准請假不當管理措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8835.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8849.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
否准加班申請羈押公文刁難請假退公文等等那其中言語霸凌跟主管不當工作指派或管理措施者居多這是我看到大概我們整理出來的一些態樣那請問這83件裡面最後這個成案幾件有沒有這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8858.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8885.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
跟委員報告這個更詳細的資料是不是情容我們會後提供給您但是目前的這個部分目前這個有成案的啦這是指過去有成案的呢不到十件啦應該是在六件左右我這邊的數字是八件比例是連一成都不到那民主黨這個為什麼成案比例這麼低啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8887.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8915.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
每個個案應該要照他實際的狀況來處理啦對因為這個匯照保訓會申訴有的時候是霸凌的申訴人也有可能是被認定霸凌成立的另外一方當事人那他們不服這個決定後都可以來救濟那救濟的部分的話我想保訓會這邊當然是先看說程序面上有沒有不完備之處所以如果說機關已經做了適當的處理的話那通常也不一定要去推翻那個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8916.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8934.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我跟秘書長主委說,因為自己也當過公務員,我也是從基層公務員做過兩年,所以我蠻了解說公務員他面臨就是來自職場與其來自上市的壓力是什麼,因為公務員這輩子的升遷其實就是主導在他的上級長官嘛, |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8935.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8956.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那這個過程當中 公務員的很多的文化裡面其實他們在面對霸凌的抵抗力是相對是比較弱的這是為什麼今天我們會有這個所謂的討論 也是來自於這個部分那我就舉一個小案例 那去年勞動力發展署傳出職場霸凌嘛那第一時間根據調查小組的回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8957.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8972.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
他認為謝宜龍管理方式跟情緒控管確有不當但是導致其他同僚被職場霸凌感受可是認定管理不當不是主因那後來重新調查才認定為霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8973.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8995.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
那所以其實明顯的第二次調查稅成功不是靠行政部門內部的自我管理啦是外部公眾的監督那時候社會輿論的壓力非常大那因此你也可以想像說不是每一個所謂的霸凌案件都可以得到這麼高的社會的公共關注度那因此建立制度才會變得今天我們非常的重要那最後我還是要講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8997.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9018.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們其實是非常不樂見我們的公務同仁在五個國家奮鬥的過程當中還要遭遇到所謂的惡劣的霸凌的環境那法制化怎麼去讓公務員可以安心的工作這是我們大家共同要努力的部分所以今天尤其是關於持續跟重大的認定我還是希望我們主管機關能夠再持續去審酌一下以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9022.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9028.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 謝謝盧委員那麼我們就先依先前的宣告現在休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續開會詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9036.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9039.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
OK 等一等 等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9056.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9056.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
謝謝各位觀眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9079.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9080.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好了,好了,好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9103.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9104.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
嗯嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9114.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9115.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好,我們來試試 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9140.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9142.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
謝謝大家收看 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9166.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9166.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
蜂蜜 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9539.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9562.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
好 請各位就座我們現在要繼續開會好 那我們先請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不到那就接下來請莊月熊委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9569.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9577.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
謝謝主席我們今天審這個新增的草案裡面整個職場霸凌不好意思秘書長有效果嗎秘書長不讓他離開的話審這個霸凌有點怪怪好像委員會在霸凌他一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9598.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9622.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個雖然在司法法律委員會裡面常常一提這個劍拔弩張但是涉及到這個基本的健康人權的官員這也來是要監督但是也都是公務人員 尤其是高級文官這些都是國家好不容易栽培出來的那我想今天這個針對公務人員保障法跟公務人員安全衛生防護辦法新增的這個職權霸凌的專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9623.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9642.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們來看看這個制度到底有沒有缺口那針對公務人員保障法草案授權安慰辦法裡面新增的這個職場的一個霸凌這個專節裡面來幾個問題來救教我相信今天早上聽了以後大家針對這些修法的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9644.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9649.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
朝野其實都表達正面的一個態度畢竟在公務體系裡面不乏層級明確然後權責非常集中你這個升遷仰賴評比制度的一個設計所以這個權勢的霸凌它不但是真實的存在而且你很難去揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9667.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9688.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這過去在公務機關尤其公務人員身份是在法制還沒有那麼健全的時候還在一個特別權利關係底下那很多很多的存在的這些不為外界所知道的這些職權的一個霸凌那我看在現在社會也高度的去做一個重視那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9692.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9713.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這一次的一個草案裡面我也發現了幾個問題就是說你如果說霸凌者是權責的上級是一個上級的話那你申訴的一個程序如何真正的一個保障這個申訴人也就是說客觀性那個客觀性那以現在你草案的一個設計你遭遇這場霸凌的攻略你可以像所屬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9714.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9743.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
機關的防護委員會做申訴由委員會來決定是否來受理但我要請教一個簡單的保証一個簡單的問題就是說如果說疑似霸凌者跟委員會成員之間大家的家學生都家學生 熟識同單位甚至於平常就存在上下階層這個就是公務機關的一個常態那請問這樣的制度設計怎樣去保障這個申訴的人能夠很安心的去做申訴這個是不是可以先做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9746.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9767.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝委員的指教跟委員報告就是說這個就是這一次我們會希望能夠擴大外部成員的專家學者外部人員進來的主要原因我們希望透過外部然後還有就是機關它如果有成立公務人員協會至少要有一名公務人員協會的代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9768.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9788.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那這個希望就是能夠透過這樣的機制確保這個案子簡單講不會被吃掉不會被戳掉這是第一點第二點就是說除了這個安全衛生防護委員會以外目前各機關都有很多就是他就有首長信箱然後他也可以向上級機關去 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9791.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9816.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
向上級機關去申訴就是說他去投書等等那這些呢目前的機制呢各院跟各機關也都有在運作那當然第三點就是說因為整個政府組織他的層級節制的特性他是雙面任他可以是去為了讓這些機關首長還有各級主管負起責任還有就是他如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9817.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9832.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個知曦有霸凌他卻沒有處理他是要受到很多的處罰的那這個是他的一個好處那這是我們新加入的但是當然也沒有錯像委員講的那個就是我跟你認識嘛我一輩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9833.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9857.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
都跟你同一個機關那萬一剛好80的那個人呢是機關的副首長因為我們現在是明定副首長或者是幕僚長那這個可能案情會不會真的吃掉所以我們目前當然我們現在想的就是說透過更多元他一個人要吃案子其實他要經過很多的部分第一個人事單位因為組成裡面一定有人事人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9857.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9886.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
第二個外部學者第三個裡面會有陣風所以呢如果這樣他還能夠把那個案子吃掉實在應該我們判斷在實務上現在應該是不太可能另外一個就是有個數字就是說現在這個大家其實越年輕的世代他越勇於敢來揭發機關裡面他受到的不合理的對待而過去的幾年裡面我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9887.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9897.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
接到的霸凌案件還有就是做成的案件以去年來講是36件但是從就是從去年底到現在我們接到的再申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9899.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9927.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
就光霸凌已經有超過90件表示說這個文化大家逐漸敢來再申訴啦所以委員擔心的問題呢我想我們目前在他通過以後我們會持續觀察是透過比較多的機制啦這個我在想 寶勳這個也特別這大家不用受騙你知道嗎機關裡面第一個上下第二個剛剛我們講的熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9928.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9946.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
最怕的工人最怕的是事後在那個職場裡面後面那種報復提出申訴以後常常伴隨著以後對整個他以後的升遷當事人會感到壓力我們其實不能去忽視的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9947.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9970.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
就是說你現在在防務委員會裡面 你由副首長跟幕僚擔任召集人 成員立功5到23 外部人員不得少於三分之一那其實你申訴對象如果是機關首長 雖然規定說要迴避啊但你整個機關的文化裡面 那種層級的壓力其實還是存在啦那如果是加害只是副首長或者處長 科室主管 委員會成員關係 大家可能性喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9971.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9982.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個關係密切的可能性那個更高啦所以導致委員是不是會受理或者說可能被牽制在關係的一個網路當中這個都必須要再去慎重那你在整個保訓會其實如果去確保如何去確保當霸凌者本身是機關權力核心的時候這個委員會裡面的客觀獨立的一個程序的一個啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9996.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10018.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
這個都要特別特別的去關注 尤其這個常常到最後那有時候被標籤化的差不多大家機關內部會形成一種同仇敵愾這個都不是沒有發生過了那整個接下來要就教的就是說調查小組裡面你雖然納了外部成員但是你最後還是回到機關委員會裡面做這個定奪 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10020.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10048.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那所以說這個公平性以現在草案的一個設計的話你說兩個月內完成報告然後外部成員不得少於二分之一這個都值得肯定但你調查結論又回到機關內部的防護委員會裡面來確認是否成立這個我就要問啦就是說你如果判斷最後還是委員會來做勢必也由他來做那你這個委員會又跟涉案的主管關係又這麼的密切 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10053.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10073.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這樣的制度設計之下 基層人員他畢竟還是弱勢面對上次這樣一個霸凌 不敢說申訴無門但如何再更一步的一個確保 讓這個申訴的公務人員讓他去感受到 他有真正的一個保護傘 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10074.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10102.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我覺得這是很重要的尤其啊尤其啊那你碰到這種權勢霸凌的問題的時候申訴對象通常都是丁詩啦通常都是丁詩啦那這樣的申訴到底困不困難大家都可想而知啦大家都可想而知但是整個法制的一個建立當然是一件好事啦尤其是你說要全面的讓它完備那 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10104.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10117.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
方向是對的啦但至少先讓他去啟動啦那但是呢我也在特別來做一個叮嚀啦就這個制度喔你也必須要去正視他的一個風險啦你說說從申訴的階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10121.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10144.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
環務委員會開始那就必須要去恪守必要的一個匿名性跟它的一個保密性如果不開始 一個申訴之後全部全部都拆掉這個部分是我們整個設計必須要去更完善的一個地方那我們更期待就是說訂這一部法律是要讓公務員遭遇到霸凌的時候不用在 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10146.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10154.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
很多都是隱忍到退休隱忍到退休然後呢讓申訴人這樣到最後還受到惡度的傷害這個程序我們就認為應該讓他更 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10163.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10190.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
對這個申訴人士更溫暖的所以本席也特別來提醒啦你安慰辦法裡面要求的是每一年去一次的定期主動的去做一個查核各機關的防護委員會的一個運作這個是最基本的一個要求啦最基本的要求不然搞不好你就搞不好都關關相護申訴調查沒有下文到最後變成形同具文啦那這個制度就會讓受害人越來越沉默 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10191.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10203.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
你受害人去申訴的人越來越沉默的話就形同你讓霸凌者就越來越猖狂我相信這個部分我們要特別去著墨的地方好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝鍾委員那接下來請鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10222.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10242.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
主席 各位委員首先針對今天所要討論的郭蓮保障法要請教我們保訓會的主任委員這次的一個修正特別重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10244.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10262.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
因為前一陣子真的是這種職場的霸凌真的是非常的嚴重所以裡面現在特別增加在第19條病死公務員免於遭受職場霸凌等行為那第二項裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10264.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10285.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
特別寫持續,這個持續這兩個定義未來怎麼樣去怎麼樣才算持續,這個時間到底是多久還是怎麼樣然後要造成這個敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10286.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10305.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
之不友善工作環境這個都是需要釐清的部分所以這個部分這個要不要請主委說明一下跟委員報告就是有關於這個定義持續 脅迫或是敵意等等那這個是這整個的定義是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10306.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10324.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個透過多場的這個法治徵詢然後呢也參考了整個職安法草案那所共同訂定下來一致性的這樣子的一個處理方式那所謂的持續呢基本上呢就是陳如委員講的那對於持續這個概念呢就是指說它可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10325.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10347.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
如果是這個整個要一起看因為後面有一個就是如果是情節重大但是如果今天舉例來講他是每天都比如說有一個主管他每天都就是習慣性的罵他的同仁說你豬頭我沒有要口出諱言我是舉例來講然後呢這個每天大概就這樣子就一段時間那 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10350.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10367.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個久了當然就會造成這個當事人他會自己開始去懷疑起自己那這個就是有持續性那敵意的話呢基本上當然我們知道說這種話是不應該說的嘛雖然可能他口頭禪可是這都不應該是這個就是要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10368.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10386.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
怎麼樣讓公務人員了解所以你們除了條文是這樣規定之外相關未來通過之後相關的這些說明對相關的公務人員了解的部分是怎麼樣能夠把它做比較詳細的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10387.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10412.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
謝謝委員提醒我們已經開始著手這些相關的指引跟案例還有判準謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那現在就是這個第19條之一這條條文裡面這個因案情節輕重依公務員懲戒法公務人員考機法或其他相關法規這個如果是政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10415.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10426.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
有適用到這幾個法會就是在我們目前的安慰辦法裡面好那這個只要是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10429.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10447.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們處理霸凌者他現在是明定有很多的機制可以用一個部分就是這邊我們所列舉的包含公務人員服務法、考機法、任用法這些都一定所有人事法制都可以用此外本來公務人員就有懲戒然後行政懲處這是考機法 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10448.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10477.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那以我們現在的版本如果它還有涉及到行政法環的部分或是刑事通通都是總共至少有五個機制可以同時並用而且它沒有互相排斥的現象好 謝謝那接下來這個第21條特別增加公務員因機關未提供安全及衛生防護措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10478.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10507.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
增加這個然後還把這個還有修著這個致其生命身心健康受損失得以國家賠償法請求賠償那因為今天這個負責國家賠償法的我不知道他有沒有了解請問一下當初有沒有去跟保護部負責國家賠償的主管的部門有去他們有參與嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10508.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10534.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
跟我們報告這一條是現行條文就是這樣所以在過去的這個立法過程裡面已經有跟他們有討論過那這一次這次只有增加新啦國賠法本來就是在的這一條本來就是現行條文只是我們增加一個新這件事而已就是讓執法的部分可以你們還增加這個未提供安全及衛生防護措施這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10542.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10553.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這個部分他本來就是有但是我們這次寫得更清楚因為整部安慰辦法本來就是包含了安全及衛生的防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10555.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10572.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個因為國家培養法第三條本來就有規定了本來就有規定那現在這個做修正怎麼樣去做能夠能夠相互搭配合是一個很重要的好最後這個要請教那個前序部前序部這個針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10576.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10589.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
警察人員人事條例在114年4月25號已經公布施行這個修正的條文那現在這個開始適用了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10590.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10619.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
是跟那個委員報告那個因為法律已經生效了所以後續那個怎麼處理我們已經有跟內政部大概在4月29號6月5月16號跟5月28號那個有本部的政務次長跟內政部的次長有召開過後因為這個法律條文通過我想您我們大家也做公務員出身嘛那不是法律條文通過就可以馬上可以做出很多事出來那有一些程序性的積極性的技術性的問題都需要處理那這三次會議大概都有擬清清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10620.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10643.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那未來那個警政署這邊會再修正那個施行細則那因為他目前的這個退伍的作業程序是跟現行法律是不一樣的現行的退伍法不一樣那我們的資訊系統也是不一樣的所以這部分都需要再重新再做一些處理第一個您把後續需要做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10644.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10650.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
提個素面資料給我這第一個第二個要請前序部協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10653.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10672.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
請證書因為這個畢竟他們過去沒有自己負責過這樣的一個規定那私刑細則的部分請刑事部能夠來協助他們來把這個私刑細則能夠趕快的發布可以嗎這個我們都會一直有保持密切聯繫謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10681.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10692.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好那接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在那接下來有請林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10709.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10714.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
好 等下就拜託我們的就是保訓會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10720.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10747.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
職場霸凌案件都是行為不法以上犯罪未滿多數案件很難以刑法規範因此要以行政法來處理實務上常以不當管理為不法行為開脫可是卻造成被害者的傷害所以想問主委這邊本法草案考試院定義職場霸凌把權勢關係跟冒犯行為抵抗環境等造成被害者身心傷害事實等因素都列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10748.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10766.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
並以持續性為要件在這個定義裡邊那我們的公務機關呢公務機關主管EQ不好不定期或不經意的用笨啊無能啊指特定的公務員是否構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10770.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10798.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
跟委員報告如果按照我們的定義這是構成的只是說目前因為很多的機關的文化或當事人甚至被霸凌者我們假定他是構成的他都不知道說這個其實是職場霸凌所以我們現在從6月中開始就會大量的開始去進行宣導輔導讓所有的公務人員跟各級主管知道其實你這樣子一般常用的就像剛剛委員舉的這個已經是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10800.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10826.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
很斯文很含蓄的了其實他如果說當事人他自己他感覺到他身心受創或是長期導致了我們講到他的一個信心不足了或等等這都構成那另外一個就是如果公務機關常發生事實上是公務員申請調職可是原單位卻主管卻押注案子導致公務員調不成這是不是也是屬於職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10829.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10854.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
呃 有關這一題呢 目前的這個就是在機關就主管的他的這個用人權跟這個當事人他要調離的權益之間呢他要怎麼橫評呢 目前是一個大家都在討論中的那這個部分呢 是不是請這個我們人事法規主管機關 懷次長來跟委員說明會比較清楚好 謝謝委員提問喔 那有關於這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10856.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10873.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
有關這部分我們目前本部要修改那個公務人員任用法適應細則大概過去機關所長有絕對的否準權那未來我們的修正是這樣大致跟您報告一下第一個就是說你收到商調公文你最遲一個月內就要同意商調 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10874.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10888.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
那你最長只能給他就是三個月內如果你不同意或怎樣他就自動生效三個月就會離開那麼如果經過三番譬如說當事人跟本機關還有去介紹機關有同意一個協調的實踐的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10890.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10918.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那就尊重他們三環協調時間但這個也有一個天花板最多也就是只能延長三個月那因為我們也考慮到那個很多就在我們我們中央這種跟地方這種有些偏遠地區就花東啦或者是像台中啊或者是那個像這些偏遠地區他們很多機關也反映說那如果說是屬於在這種地方的機關你頂多就是只能在三個月所以就是都是三加三最多就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10918.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10947.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所有其層上對我們已經把天花板設置就是機關已經沒有絕對否準權那我們也兼顧到說機關能力的因為畢竟不在地方政府或者還是實際在推動業務的那也考考慮到我們公務員自己的需求那我們在這兩者之間取得一個橫幅那目前在公告中在遵循各方意見中公務員報告好那主委一樣問你喔公務員本人或配偶因工作不愉快如果在臉書上發牢騷受到長官的當面關切是否構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10948.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10972.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好那如果受到質問或嚴厲的質問的話這些是不是也構成跟委員報告就是說他如果是就是說如果是當事人的話呢那他受到長官的這個嚴厲的指責如果涉及到這個已經符合我們職場霸凌的這裡面的定義那甚至於影響了他 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10973.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10989.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
的這個工作譬如說威脅說你繼續再這樣的話那就怎樣怎樣怎樣那這個當然是構成職場霸凌是好 謝謝那在下一頁如果主管及霸凌者公務員如何內部申訴那為什麼不去建立外部的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10990.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11009.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
有時候職長霸凌大概是職位高者對下屬做出一些冒犯的所謂的權勢霸凌公務員員以服從為天職的話面對機關的首長或主管公務員員要考慮到日後日整難過、深情無望、官官相互被刺案或是被反 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11011.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11029.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
反指誣告要不是就是忍耐多半是不敢申訴所以我很擔心是沒有有些空有法律可是實際上還是自愛難行所以想問在機關的立場上會不會因為家走不可外揚而要求公務員對機構內部發生的霸凌事件保密 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11031.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11054.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
跟我們報告外界的確會有這樣的擔心但是以目前特別是去年的一整波的職場霸凌的這些案件看起來這樣的機率會越來越少因為如果機關裡面有人要求所謂的家醜不可外揚其實它會造成更多的反彈這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11054.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11077.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
第二點就是說其實他現在有非常非常多可以申訴或者是去爆料的管道那反而呢會讓機關陷於更大的困境所以機關只要知悉的話就是不一定要機關首長他可能告訴任何一位他比較信任的長官或者是同事那或者是人事單位或是政風人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11079.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11103.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
只要機關有人窒息那機關就必須這是法定要求他就必須開始去處理這個案件對啊當然話是這麼講可是桃園市政府去年便發生某處長指責下屬把內部醜事告訴配偶的新聞然後涉及到長官首長眼面時那申訴人要怎麼去相信申訴的過程是安全的調查是客觀的結果是公正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11106.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11134.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
跟委員報告就是說這一件案這個case呢基本上他就是他有去申訴了就我所知因為他是主管機關這個目前也有代表在這邊那這個他在這個調查過程就是說他不足但是我想其實當事人他也有一些證據顯示他其實是應該構成的所以這地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11135.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11163.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個因為他涉及個案所以我們保訓會就不清楚那目前這個如果這將來這個因為他是可以再提再申訴的那如果他再提他可以當事人他可以再提再申訴那到時候我們可能就會比較清楚這個過程是怎麼樣子的判斷我覺得主要是申訴人他感受到安全而且這樣的一個機制事實上是客觀他才能夠確保他會去做申訴好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11164.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11179.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
就有時候情節重大案件當然應該進入到司法審判可是情節輕微的案件有時候會沒有辦法成立那個刑事的犯罪則要透過內部的處分來做處理可是如果兩照任一方不服處分的結果都是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11180.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11200.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
去複審再申述的救濟權唯有調解才能夠節省兩方的耗費心力可是台灣的公務體制的科程關係太強了公務員不太容易相信自己內部調查能不能夠公平除非有重大的改革所以想問主委說為了想調解有效而不是應付程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11202.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11217.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
希望要設立審議會讓程序公正第二是審議會的成員要能夠應對我們的民間團體成員是不是可以納入民間團體跟外部專家 您的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11219.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11247.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
跟我們報告這個政府就是以我們目前的保障法加安慰辦法我們那個叫做調查小組那審議會指的是說如果是今天機關首長他是職場霸凌人那保訓會就會組成審議會那目前的在安慰辦法的規定裡面外部的人員就很多那這個外部的專家學者他有很多本身他就是一些公益性或是法律團體或是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11248.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11249.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這個您目前所舉的這個譬如說法服的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11252.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11277.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
裡面重要的的代表人所以目前的機制裡面其實就包含了這個部分是好因為有時候我覺得法條有時候想講專家學者很常就還是學者而沒有外部的其他的一些比較在執行這些相關處理這些事情的所謂的民間團體最後當然是期待這次的修法裡面能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11279.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11304.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
就是擴大保護對象就是納入不當管理跟我們的職場霸凌跟其他語言的一些不法侵害然後建立內部的一個跟外部的並行機制希望我們還是把民間團體可以納入到我們的審議會的成員還有我們也希望說明確我們的申訴期間要有一個期限在我覺得保障公務人員的心心健康是國家的基本責任以上謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11308.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11311.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
王洪威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11324.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11324.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
麥美娟議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11355.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11369.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
他已經先回去了我也是補充一下因為我覺得剛剛我們也是有一直希望秘書長先回但是秘書長就是認為說這是他的職務他堅持留下來所以我們是非常感謝秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11370.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11391.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那因為我這段時間我的感覺是說有很多位祕書長有的我們請他來他不來有的我們請他回去休息他不願意這個差距真的差距太大所以我覺得今天我覺得也很那個應該是真的肯定他非常感動就是劉祕書長真的我剛好多次請他說真的回去休息然後他就說一定要留下來把植物做完 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11392.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11417.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
是好謝謝所以那我又看到那個秘書長應該先回去休息那我覺得沒有什麼問題因為本來就是身體不適不用不用在這邊硬撐著所以但是我們還是非常謝謝他好我想先請教一下我們保訓會主委也就是我們今天修正這個工人與保障法我想請問一下我們的適用範圍第一個我請問我們的政務官是不是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11423.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11441.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
跟委員報告 政務官呢 他是 職安法有公告部分適用職安法但是在我們這邊呢 他是 現在我們是變成是一個準用的部分準用 是那我請問一下 那如果我們派駐 執法申訴的部分而已就是說我們的102條 就委員在問的應該是102條我們的那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11446.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11455.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
是執罷申訴的部分 它是準用的準用 好 所以如果比如說我們海外其實在有關霸凌的部分事實上我們派駐海外的單位我們的這些代表處其實時不時的就會傳來有關於外館的霸凌事件那我請問一下我們的外館從大使公使這以下是不是也都準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11475.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11486.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
她如果是公務人員任用法的她都是適用但是我們現在很多大使都是空降啊我們很多大使沒有任何公務人員身份啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11488.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11510.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們很多公使也是如此啊他沒有公務人員身份他也許是立委 他也許是音樂家 他也許是歌手也許是某一位長官的好朋友所以我不曉得這種大使公使包辦在裡面在裡面 准用也都准用對 因為他們是屬於政務官好 那請問一下軍人准不准用 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11511.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11529.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
跟我們報告軍人有他們自己國防部有他們自己一整套的這個就是安全衛生跟職場霸凌的專法所以我們這個工人保障法現在我們的修正就是我們目前不包含軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11530.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11548.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是不包含軍人那當然教職人員也包括所以現在看起來講到現在沒有包括公立學校對公立學校老師他們是用職安法的那公立學校的校長 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11551.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11579.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
也是職安法待會我會問到有關於職安法的部分因為我想確定一下 釐清一下那另外我想請全序部次長那我們從在我們就是勞動部發生這個嚴重的霸凌事件之後就全面來檢討相關的法律那除了我們公務人員保障法之外我們今天讓這個有關霸凌能夠更加的完善之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11580.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11601.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那麼過去我也有曾經質詢過因為我們考試院也曾經研修要修正公務人員考機法那我自己本人呢也提出了公務人員考機法的修正這個部分呢是使得在公務人員的他的獎懲裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11604.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11619.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
有關於職場霸凌納入因為我們目前這個公務人員的講程比如說我們現在社會大家高度重視的比如說我們今天討論的霸凌或者是之前也大家非常關心的比如說你有性騷 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11620.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11634.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
跟騷或者酒駕甚至獨駕我們不能說公務人員都不會發生這樣的事件那如果說這些都是我們在社會上大家高度關注尤其公務人員不應該發生這些事情應該把它納入到我們公務人員考積法裡面的獎懲的項目所以我想請問一下全序部你們現在修法的進度為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11649.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11677.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
是 跟委員報告就是說有關於公園就您剛剛垂詢的這個部分是屬於我們公園考機法第12條的部分那我們在考試院已經在今年的5月6號把公園考機法的修正案已經送到大院來那這裡面也主要是修改那個一次計兩大國務專案考機那包括像那個職場就職霸 性騷或性侵等等這些規範我們都有在這個法都已經完整的把它整個檢視已經送到大院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11677.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11687.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以已經送到立法院來5月6號的時候是不是好 那麼我剛才就是霸凌的部分已經納入跟騷 姓騷有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11689.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11700.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
欣欣也有那我請問一下酒駕有沒有有酒駕有 獨駕有沒有有 我們大概都在這個目前大概都在條文裡面都所以都已經在條文了真的這樣的話我們也會加速來做這個修法因為本來就是應該各項的法律應該齊頭必進好 來另外呢我想請問一下同樣的我們保訓會主委剛才談到職安法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11715.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11742.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那麼當然我們在怎麼樣的去保障我們公務人員的一個勞動環境跟勞動條件那但是呢其實廣大的基層公務人員認為僅僅只是公務人員的這個保障法是不足以那麼全面所以呢其實基層勞工一直都有一個聲音就是說讓公務人員能夠全面的適用職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11743.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11749.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那像今天在修法裡面 比如說同樣的 這個有關於霸凌那麼在我們原來你們的版本裡面 它就沒有相關的刑法的懲處可是在治安法 它就有刑法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11760.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11767.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那所以職安法認為很多對勞工來講是保障對基層公務人員也認為這樣對他的保障是比較全面的那我所了解的是其實你們也有在跟一些我們的這些公務人員的這些團體事實上他們也已經跟你們陳情然後你們也有跟他們開會所以我想了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11787.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11792.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
讓公務人員全面能夠適用這個職安法 剛才也講 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11795.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11809.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這個我們的公立學校已經適用職安法了 對不對那所以同樣的 所以很多公教公教人員那為什麼公立學校他就可以適用職安法而我們的公家機關的基層勞工就不能適用職安法呢所以我也想請問一下以現在來講 就是說現在要推動這樣的公務人員全面適用職安法你們目前的進度 還有你們目前的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11822.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11832.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
公務員報告就是我們提出這一個現在我們提出這一個公務員保障法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11833.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11856.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
安全及衛生防護辦法的全面性的修正基本上呢是這個憲法對於考試院申請條件第六條的執掌上的一個要求那再來就是說大院跟在行使這個我們這一屆考試院長周鴻憲院長的這個統一權行使的時候有要求這個我們應該儘速提出公務人員保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11857.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11886.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
的修正跟安慰辦法以完備整個公務體系的這個安全衛生及職場霸凌的防治所以呢這個是我們這個責無旁貸而且也是對於這個大院跟貴委員會的期待的一個迅速要求所以現階段呢我們就是把我們大院對我們的要求我們盡速把它完成而且呢在除了速度以外其實最重要的是我們在整個的這個法制的建制上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11887.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11915.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
安慰辦法加保障法呢是跟這個職安法這個的相關的規範是拉齊的而且我們的職霸的部分呢規範的更為詳細那所以現階段我們希望的各界的共識是希望能夠儘速的先讓公務人員的這個職場安全的這一套制度能夠先完備或是讓他更加的健全那這是我們目前有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11916.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11925.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
這一個我們自己該做的事情先把它完成那如果說未來 未來那大家覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11927.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11951.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這個不只是這三 這個委員你列出的三種代表也包含社會各界還有各式各樣的公務人員對 沒錯我講的是如果未來不只是這三個團體而已因為我們徵詢了很多的不只是這三個團體 很多那其他主要就是委員您對這三個團體他們的立場是一致的但是其他的呢並沒有提出說 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11951.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11972.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
要全面適用職安法這樣子的規定這樣子的要求所以對於這個部分呢我們目前沒有去思考這個方向所以你的意思好 你講了那麼久意思就是說你們目前並沒有贊成公務人員全面適用職安法的意思嗎我想委員這樣子的說法可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11973.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11989.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
沒有很就是我沒有說我們我們沒有贊成與不贊成我們是現階段我們保訓會考試院做好大院跟貴委員會對我們的期待要求就說現在今天的修法我們就是加速推動修法這都沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11990.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12005.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那只是對於很多基層公務人員剛剛講到的比如說醫院或者是學校已經適用了這個職安法那大家總覺得說一國不要兩制一國不要三制不要那麼多制所以呢確實有很多基層公務人員認為如果在這個相關的這個就勞動條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12011.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12027.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
相關的這個勞動環境的部分他應該可以適用職安法他覺得有更好的保障所以我剛才問你們你們的態度所以你的態度是怎麼樣是不贊成也沒有說就是也沒有說反對沒有贊成也沒有反對因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12029.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12047.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們過去這幾個月就是非常努力的在完成大院對我們的要求跟期待所以委員的這一題呢它比較是屬於未來式那未來如果說整個社會氛圍跟大家都覺得可以那這個是一個社會上面各行各業也包含公務人員各類公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12048.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12053.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這樣好不好 因為待會我們留一些時間大家就是進入了那個法條的討論那麼因為你剛剛講說除了這三個單位這個繼承人員的這些他們的團體之外呢還有很多團體也不定支持列入職安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12066.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12085.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
那你可不可以把你們 既然說你跟那麼多單位來做溝通那你正反意見 正反意見嘛 你們一定有人支持嘛你的意思是有人支持 可是委員不是所有人都支持也有人反對 或有的人不支持也不反對那你把這些意見提供給我們委員可以嗎 提供給我們辦公室可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12090.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12106.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
跟委員報告這個資料我們是可以提供那因為那一天主要是針對我們之前的這個草案在進行討論所以它這個議題不是我們當天的議題所以有些團體還有很多的機關代表他們並 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12107.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12122.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
不會直接對這一題有所表態他可能沒有表態 好不好沒關係 你就把你們所跟所有的團體大家所討論的有關於就是職安法的部分有表態的你提供給我嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12124.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12125.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
我們現在修正這個公務人員保障法這個是我們現在在做的工作但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12143.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12156.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
會有越來越多的基層的公務人員覺得我需要更多的保障那所以我覺得這個本來就是你不要說未來啦你現在就會面臨的這些問題好不好好 以上謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12160.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12179.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢那訓導結束委員執行時要提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請訴訟交個別委員及本會我們先處理會議時間的問題我們中午不休息上午會議時間持續進行到議程所列事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12182.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12209.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
好那我們現在進行討論事項處理前先宣讀條文由於第二案提案條文前已宣讀完畢其次人員宣讀第一案提案條文預估宣讀時間12分鐘如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出請緊述將書面報告送交主席台以立應發現場進行討論審查法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台後方 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12211.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12215.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那宣讀時 如果已經有收到的修正動議也一併宣讀 宣讀後期進行討論好 請宣讀條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12219.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12239.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
殯案審查公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案等其案請參閱條文對照表委員蔡其章等18人提案第一條除將手續修正為為保障公務人員權益及提供合理工作環境其餘同性情條文委員徐欣盈等提案第18條各機關應提供公務人員執行職務必要之機具設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12241.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12263.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
裝備及良好工作環境考試院提案第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應予保障各機關對於公務人員執行職務應提供安全及衛生之防護措施並使公務人員免於遭受職場霸凌等行為有關辦法由考試院會同行政院定之前項所稱職場霸凌指本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會欲約職務上正當合理範圍持續與其事 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12268.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12295.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
侮辱言行或其他方式造成敵意性脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境至公務人員身心遭受不法侵害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要公務人員遭受職場霸凌得依第一項鎖定辦法提起申訴其提起申訴之期限應依下列規定辦理一被申訴人屬非具權勢地位者自職場霸凌行為終了時期欲三年者不予受理二被申訴人屬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12297.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12318.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
全市地位者自職場霸凌行為終了時期,逾五年者不予受理。文徐信義等提案第十九條,第一項同先行條文,增列第二項,總統府各院各中央一級及二級機關、直轄市政府及縣市政府等應於某年某月某日前完成各該機關前項之安全及衛生 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12319.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12336.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
防護辦法委員蔡吉昌等提案第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應與保障並使公務人員不受任何職場霸凌行為造成先行之侵害前項各機關對於公務人員執行職務應提供安全及衛生之防護措施以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12339.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12368.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
職場霸凌行為防制機制處理程序及其他應遵行事項之準則其有關辦法由考試院會同行政院定之職場霸凌申訴職場霸凌事件申訴調查偵查或審理程序中為申訴告訴告發提起訴訟作證提供協助或其他參與行為之人機關不得為不當之差別待遇違反者準用第21條第一項之規定委員林月琴等提案第19條公務人員執行職務之安全應與保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12369.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12394.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
各機關對於公務人員執行職務應提供安全及衛生之防護措施前項安全及衛生之防護措施包括工作不當管理職場霸凌與其他公務人員執行職務應他人言語或行為所致身體或精神不法侵害之防護第一項安全及衛生之防護措施有關預防申訴通報調查處理治療輔導與其他必要處置事項之辦法由考試院會同行政院定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12395.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12410.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
委員李昆澤等提案第十九條第一項同性情條文並增列第二項機關首長附有確保業務執行場域友善及避免敵意環境之責任委員黃秀芳等提案第十九條第一項同性情條文並增列第二項機關首長應確保機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12413.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12433.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
業務執行常遇友善之責任考試院提案第四條是第十九條之一各機關違反前條鎖定辦法之規定有下列情形之一者及應負責人員應按情節輕重依公務員懲戒法公務人員考記法或其他相關法規予以懲戒或懲處一對於提出安全及衛生防護措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12433.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12440.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
事項之建議者或對提出職場霸凌申訴者予以不利對待或不合理處置2. |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12440.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12445.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
致其職場霸凌之情形未採取具體有效措施3. |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12445.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12452.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
未提供符合規定之必要安全及衛生防護措施前向第一款情形應處負責人員新台幣2萬元以上20萬元以下罰款並得按次處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12455.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12467.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
第一項 第二款及第三款行情經上級機關通知興起改善或無上級機關經保訊會通知興起改善 借其為改善者應主負責人員新台幣3萬元以上30萬元以下罰還 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12469.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12494.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
第一項第三款情形至身重大災害者應處負責人員新台幣三萬以上五萬五十萬元以下罰還至身死亡事故者應處新台幣五十五十萬元以上一百五十萬元以下罰還但如有不可規則之事由或應負責人員對災害之發生或以三進防止義務者不在此限前項情形涉及刑事責任者機關應移送檢查機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12495.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12521.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
機關首長應經認定職場霸凌成立者處新台幣一萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還第四項所稱重大災害指發生災害之離災人數在三人以上或發生災害之離災人數在一人以上且輸住院治療者台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十九條之一由下列情形之一者處新台幣三萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還一公務人員違反前條鎖定辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12522.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12544.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
對提出安全及衛生防護措施事項之嫌疑者與不禮義對待或不合理處置二 公務人員違反前條鎖定辦法未提供符合規定之必要安全及衛生防護措施前項第二款情形致發生死亡災害者處三年以下有期徒刑據義貨客或併客新台幣30萬元以下罰金致發生重傷災害者處一年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12545.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12568.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
具役或科或併科新台幣18萬元以下罰金委員寧願請等提案第19條之一各機關應設立下列單位或人員受理第19條第一項安全及衛生事件之申訴或通報一人事處事單位主管或機關長官二以法律為宗旨之財團法人或公益社團法人公務人員執行職務遭受安全及衛生事件侵害或有 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12569.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12597.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
會有遭受侵害之餘的依據前項第一款提出申訴或通報人事處事單位主管機關所長為行為人得項具有管轄權是上級機關或前項第二款為之第一項第二款裁判法人或公益社團法人受理申訴通報應以被害人利益為考量指派律師陪同被害人依據第二項規定為申訴與通報並為第十九條第三項辦法規定之申訴通報調查處理與其他程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12600.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12619.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
被害人委任提起附審再申訴或行政訴訟第一項第二款財團法人財團法人或公益社團法人之遴選與委任辦法由考試院會同行政院定之考試院提案第十九條之二前條第二項至第四項及第六項之法環由保訓會裁處之裁處權時效因三年期間經過而消滅 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12621.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12642.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
前條第四項就重大災害或死亡事故因果關係之認定及採取由保訓會延聘學者專家五人至七人組成安全衛生事故審議小組審認之任性別比例不得少於三分之一職場霸凌申訴受理機關應將前條第六項職場霸凌成立與否之決定及調查事證含送保訓會該決定之調查程序與 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12645.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12672.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
人員組成有衛福第19條鎖定辦法之規定者保訓會得依職權要求機關重新調查前條第二項之採取全時效自公務人員就機關因其提出職場霸凌申訴或安全及衛生建議所為不利所為不利對待或不合理處置提起就計之日起算前條第三項之採取全時效自上級機關就機關借其為改善情形通報保訓會之日起算 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12673.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12701.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
前條第四項採除全時效自機關向保訓會通報重大災害或死亡事故之日起算前條第六項採除全時效自職場霸凌申訴受理機關將職場霸凌成立與否自決定及調查實證函報保訓會之日起算如今保訓會要求重新調查因自職場霸凌申訴受理機關重新調查後在函送保訓會之日起算不符保訓會所為第一項採除處分有關其權益之究極 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12702.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12719.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
依訴願法之規定行之委員林業勤等提案第19條之二各機關為處理公務人員執行職務遭受第19條第一項安全及衛生事件侵害或有遭受侵害之餘應組成公務人員執行職務遭受安全及衛生事件侵害防治審議會以下簡稱審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12722.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12736.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
辦理、調查、審議、調解及移送司法機關事項請向審議會致召集人一人由機關構首長或副首長兼任並因聆聘派有關機關高級職員、社會公正人士、民間團體代表、學者專家為委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12737.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12761.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
其中社會公正人士民間團體代表選擇專家不得少於總數二分之一委員應有一人為被害人所屬公務人員協會制代表女性代表不得少於總數二分之一單一性別不得少於三分之一第十九條之三公務人員於知悉第十九條第二項事件發生日起而連念提出申訴但自發生之日起欲無年者不得提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12762.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12781.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
五 延續信應等提案第二十條除第三具修正為除為維護中大公共利益所必要者外應暫時停止執行其餘同現行條文考試院提案第二十一條除第一項修正為公務人員應機關為提供安全及衛生防護措施或提供自安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12781.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12798.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
及衛生防護措施有瑕疵致其生命身心健康受損失得依國家賠償法請求賠償其餘同先行條文委員許新英等提案第21條對照考試院提案主將第一項中的身心修正為身體其餘同考試院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12799.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12817.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
委員蔡琪昌等提案第21條除將第一項修正為機工提供至安全及衛生防護措施有瑕疵違反職場霸凌行為防治機制處理程序及其他應遵行事項致公務人員生命身體或健康受損失依國家賠償法請求賠償其餘同性情條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12819.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12842.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
第22條 處將第二項第二句修正為 其設送系因公務人員之故意 重大過失或職場霸凌所致者其餘同現行條文 文學性等提案第24條 公務人員執行職務電資之費用 服務機關應償還資第24條之一 刪除現行條文第一項第二款第三目文字之外 其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12843.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12871.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
第八十四條之一保訓會知有服務機關管理措施或有關工作條件處置不當時得依本法主動進行調查其調查程序準用本章規定第八十九條處將第二項第五句修正為保訓會原處分機關或服務機關得依職權或依當事人之申請就原行政處分管理措施或有關工作條件之處置全部或一部停止執行外其餘同性情條文考試運提案第102條 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12873.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12889.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
第一項第二項同先行條文並增列第三項各機關構學校非屬第三條及第一項鎖定人員而有依法令從事於公務者其提起致償霸凌制申訴準用第十九條至第十九條之二及依第十九條規定鎖定辦法等相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12892.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12916.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
委員徐欣盈等提案第102條除將第一項第四款修正為是各機關依法聘用、派用、聘用、聘任、僱用、留用人員及勞務承攬之工作人員外其與同現行條文委員蔡奇章等提案第102條除將第一項第四款修正為是各機關依法令派用、聘用、聘任、僱用、留用或約僱人員其與同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12917.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12935.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
考試院提言第104條本法自公佈日施行本法中華民國110某年某月某日修正之第19條第19條之一第19條之二第21條及第102條施行日期由考試院定之宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12937.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12951.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
繼續宣讀修正動議部分先宣讀討論事項第一案公務人員保障法部分修正動議共識件修正動議一對照考試員提案第十九條處第二項修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12952.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12978.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
形象所稱職場霸凌指本機關人員於職務上假借權勢或機會與在職務上必要合理範圍持續以威脅、冒犯、歧視、侮辱或孤立言行或其他方式造成敵意性、脅迫性或冒犯性之不友善工作環境致公務人員身心健康遭受危害但情節重大者不以持續發生為必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12982.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12993.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
第三項墨具修正為處應負責人員新台幣3萬元以上150萬元以下罰還第四項前段修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12995.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13012.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
第一項第三款情形自身重大災害者應處應負責人員三年以下有期徒刑拘獄或科或併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金自身死亡事故者處七年以下有期徒刑拘獄或科 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13012.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13029.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
或併科新台幣兩百萬元以下罰金第六項修正為機關首長或主管人員經認定職場霸凌成立者處新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款外與未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13033.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13053.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
第104條除增訂第二項為本法中華民國111年5月30日修正之第23條施行日期由考試院定之原第二項已列至第三項並於後段修正為102條條文自公佈後6個月施行隨陣動議二對照考試院提案第19條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13062.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13081.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
除序文手續與各機關違反前條後 增列第一項等制增訂第七項為第一項至第四項 所稱應負責人員細指機關首長於該工作場所代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之任 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13085.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13102.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
原第七項以列為第八項令立法說明修正部分詳如書面資料提案人 吳思瑤 莊瑞雄 沈發慧 陳培宇 孫振東一三 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13104.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13120.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
對照考試院第十九條之二第二項後段增列有關因果關係之審認或採取原則審議程序及組成等事項由保訓會定之增訂第三項保訓會對於各機關安全及衛生防護措施或 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13121.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13146.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
防免職場霸凌行為得實施檢查或通知其上級機關實施檢查其有不合規定者應告之違反法令條款並通知借其改善借其未改善案為私情節輕重依相關規定處理原第三項至第五項一列為第四項第六項令立法說明修正部分詳如書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13147.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13157.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
提案人審發會伍時堯、莊瑞雄、陳培宇修正動議4對照考試院提案除第三項修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13161.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13188.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
法定機關構非屬第三條及第一項所定人員而有依法令從事於公務者其提起職場霸凌之申訴準用第十九條至第十九條之二及依第十九條規定所定辦法等相關規定但不含醫療機構及公立學校令立法說明修正部分詳如書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13189.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13212.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
提案人 吳思堯 鍾瑞雄 沈發慧 陳培宇現在宣讀討論事項第二案有關公務人員任用法第36條之一部分修正動議一對照現行條文第36條之一除第一項第一款第二目修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13214.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13236.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
瓜五二未具所需官職等任用資格者一與派用條例廢止之日起九年內的適用原派用條例及其他及其實行細則繼續派用二派用條例廢止滿九年之一日起的分別於派用條例廢止滿九年之日任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13238.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13261.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
隸屬之中央三級與所屬機關間或隸屬之直轄市政府所屬一級機關與所屬機關間適用原派用條例及其實行細則繼續派用與未修正提案人 翁曉琳 黃鴻輝 吳宗憲 李燕秀 全讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13266.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13293.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
條文已經宣讀完畢我們現在進行討論事項第一案公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案請問各位委員是否要進行大體討論不用那我們就直接進入主條審查那邊緣審查考試院函請審議公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案先進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13298.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13314.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好那我們就進行逐條討論本案是部分修正繼續處理15條那我們現在先處理排序一第一條有委員蔡其昌等18人提案那請問各位委員有意見好來吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13322.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13343.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
想跟那個主席來確認一下這個程序齁那這個因為蔡其昌委員不到場沒在場我們可以討論他的案子還是您會像之前的案子就是不在場不討論沒有如果不在場齁那之前如果供題的人有有希望做提案說明也可以或是發表意見那供題的人這裡沒有供題的沒有供題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13344.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13372.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那沒關係 那我幫忙說明一下因為這個都沒有政治爭議啦那我只是想問一下因為那個蔡其昌委員所提的是增加了提供合理工作環境的這幾句話那我想就問一下我基本上方向支持只是說在用字上合理工作環境是什麼樣子的定義或者是說友善職場啊所謂合理是什麼這樣的文字你們覺得如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13376.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13405.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
合理當然就是一個大家想像中應該是共同的一個通年那有關於這個文字的部分呢我們這個就尊重委員會的這個審查結果所以其他的因為公務人員的這個相關法規裡面有合理工作環境這樣子的用法嗎或只是說比較學習比較少啦因為這種屬於形容詞然後屬於不確定法律概念的通常在法律文書裡面會盡量不出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13406.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13424.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
所以如果說蔡委員她沒有來也沒有說沒有堅持的話我是覺得因為定義有點不太清楚這一條是不是就照原條文這我的建議看看行政機關這邊有沒有辦法接受蔡委員的提案還是行政機關認為說應該維持現行條文就請行政機關表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13431.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13443.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
呃這個加上提供合理工作環境他作為一個宣示性的一個用語呢我們可以接受對好那如果他們接受我我放置入我也沒有意見可以OK那翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13445.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13468.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
我個人是建議就是公務員員保障法因為它這是本來就有的法那其實沒有必要為修而修啦原來就是為保障公務員員權益本來就包含了工作權等等相關權益所以其實我倒是認為說這個條文就不需要再特別強調就是提供合理工作環境因為這個本來就涵蓋在公務員員的權益的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13471.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13486.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我再問一下行政機關因為剛剛吳委員也有說其實這個沒有修的必要那是說行政機關因為這樣變得我有點尷尬那我們尊重委員意見因為有兩位委員都有提到就是說那我們就是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13487.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13515.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
就是希望用現行草案的條文不要再加上這個提供合理工作環境好我懂了謝謝那請問各位委員行政機關的意見是希望說不以修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意同意好那就維持現行條文好那接下來我們審查排序二第18條那委員徐欣穎等27人提案因為提案人沒有來那請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13516.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13519.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
行政機關就提案的部分有沒有要補充跟主席報告就是許委員這一條他加上裝備那當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13527.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13553.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
基本上各機關提供的這個機具設備裡面呢也本來也就會有包含裝備啦所以也建議還是維持我們原草案的條文謝謝好那請問各位委員那行政機關的意見是本條不予修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意同意好那就不予修正維持現行條文那我們現在審查排序三第十九條那 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13554.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13577.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
有考試院提案以及徐欣盈等27人提案 蔡其昌等18人提案李月琴等31人提案李坤喆等29人提案黃秀芳等21人提案黃國昌等3人所提修正動議那先請問在場的提案委員是否要做提案說明或提修正動議的提案說明 黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13581.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13604.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
謝謝主席在有關於職場霸凌這件事情上面因為這個是牽涉到在目前19條要去處理主要要承軚的規範功能我們基本上對於職場霸凌的這件事情分成兩個部分一個是構成要件一個是法律效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13606.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13613.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那在整個立法的技術上面陳如我今天早上在做提案說明的時候已經表達得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13614.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13636.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
到底公司部門是要一部專法來處理還是拆解勞工的部分到治安法處理公務員的部分放在公務員保障法裡面處理大家有不一樣的立法技術那台灣民眾黨黨團我們雖然是有提出了專法希望公司部門都納進去但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13637.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13653.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
為了儘速的提供我們的公務同仁必要的保障要讓整件事情可以往前走我們並不堅持一定要用專法公司部門放上去你要用分立規範的方式我們是可以接受的 這個是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13654.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13668.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那第二點重要的事情是雖然是分立的規範我們還是希望在有關於公務人員保障法跟有關於在治安法的部分兩個部分的規範基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13669.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13687.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我分兩個部分第一個部分構成要件的部分就構成要件的部分我希望盡量盡量沒有區別對待理由的時候就盡量把它一致化我再說一次沒有區別對待理由的時候就把它盡量一致化 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13688.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13705.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那第二個針對有關於霸凌這個行為因為某個程度上面他必須要透過其他法規範的概念把霸凌的行為他的法律上面的意涵更為具體化因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13706.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13735.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
在有關於必須要透過其他具體的行為把霸凌行為的法律概念更具體化的這個規範目標上面對於什麼樣子的行為在一定的要件下面會構成霸凌我們希望在可能的程度範圍內盡量的把他的行為太樣能夠做更清楚的擄獵那導致到後面其他要解釋概括性的條款的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13735.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13739.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
能夠有一個更清楚的指引因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13740.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13767.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
在這個規範的目標上面配合我們目前勞動部他們針對職安法裡面所公布的修正草案我們建議就今天我也感謝吳宗憲委員跟羅志強委員有一起連署這樣子的一個修正動議所以我會建議說第一個針對19條第二項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13768.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13793.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我們針對考試院的提案提出的修正動議第一個是逾越職務上必要合理範圍盡量不要用正當合理這樣的用詞跟治安法那邊他們所選擇的用詞是一樣要不然的話以後法院在審查的時候頭會很大我們的立法者非常的高深莫測這裡寫正當合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13795.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13824.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
就是治安法寫必要合理這裡寫正當合理到底是不是有區別對待的必要但是我們回到事情的本質上面來看是沒有區別對待的必要那相對的我反而會認為說治安法那邊的必要合理比這邊的正當合理在概念上面會更好掌握那第二個針對於考試院所提出來的歧視侮辱言行或其他方式歧視侮辱言行我並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13825.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13840.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
反對的意見但我希望在歧視侮辱之外其他的行為太陽目前出現在治安法裡面他們的修煉草案當中出現的太陽除了歧視侮辱包括了威脅冒犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13841.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13857.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
孤立也能夠一併的把它納入那當然我知道你們說啊這個其實我們這邊只要寫歧視侮辱或其他方式那那個或其他方式一個概括條款就全部把它含掛在裡面但是你如果仔細的想一想會發現說為什麼會去增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13861.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13883.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
威脅、冒犯、孤立因為他在概念的外援射程範圍上面跟你們所講的歧視跟侮辱還是有所不同這個是在構成要件上面那對於考試院所提出來的但書說情節重大不以持續發生為必要這個我們也競表同意這個是首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13884.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13911.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
就針對構成要件的部分所提出來的那第二個部分呢是針對那個法律效果是下一條所以我就先就第19條所提出來的修正動議就代表其他一同提案的委員說明如上好 謝謝那我們現在進行處理那請問各位委員就第19條的部分有沒有意見要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13913.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13931.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
沒有 好 翁委員因為我們剛剛在討論的時候其實大家有針對第二項理念的持續以歧視侮辱言行或其他方式等等的所造成的不法傷害大家對於持續的這個概念基本上認為它挺抽象的又不確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13932.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13954.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
雖然說是你們在第二項後面有個但書但情節重大則不以持續發生為必要那麼如果說今天我們把持續兩個字刪除就是未來其實只要是有歧視侮辱言行的等等的因為實際上進入調查之後還是會看它的情節的態樣來評定到底有沒有構成職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13956.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13980.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這樣的話不曉得是不是可行然後你們可以把有關於持續反覆性的這樣的一個條件或是一次性的造成重大的冒犯的態樣可以寫在這個立法說明裡面我看你們立法說明裡面也有寫就是在法條文字上面如果說是刪除持續會不會讓大家不會認為說這樣子的一個霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13981.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14010.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
基本上他處罰的只是持續性的一個霸凌的這個行為好跟委員說明持續呢我們行政機關還是強烈的希望能夠維持因為目前法院的判決啦他在決定他是不是構成職場霸凌都是以持續啦所以這個就像剛剛這個委員有提到就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14011.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14024.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
如果我們這邊把它刪除那而且會跟執安法那邊的定義就不一致那可能之後會兩邊會比較麻煩所以我們還是希望委員能夠支持我們在持續這兩個字還是留著那 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14030.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14050.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
剛剛我提的建議你們接不接受可不可以表示一下不好意思我想說那個我們接受那非常謝謝這個黃委員的這個幫我們把它更一致化那因為我們當時在修這個法的時候我們的是比較快的但是他們當時還沒有很確定的文字那非常謝謝委員幫我們看得這麼仔細那這些我們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14054.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14082.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
非常感謝我們全部接受那是不是第十九條的部分就依據黃國昌等三人所提的修正動議通過請問各位委員有沒有同意好同意謝謝好那我現在審查排序是增訂第十九條之一有考試院提案台灣民眾黨黨人提案委員李月琴等三十一人提案為黃國昌等三人所提修正動議委員吳思耀等四人所提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14085.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14091.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好 那請問各位委員有意見 那好 吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14093.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14114.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
謝謝主席請大家可以參閱民進黨團所提的修正動議資料已經發放到大家的手上那第一項的部分就是更明確的把違反前條第一項的那個部分明確化然後我們增訂的是123456應該第七項對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14118.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14135.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
大家可以看這個第二頁的部分主要是讓他更明確性所謂大家都很關心會不會有權勢霸凌就是你的主觀管到底是誰所以說這原本的第19條之一所提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14137.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14154.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
應負責人員是什麼應負責人員我就增訂了民進黨團提的是前四項所稱應負責人員細指機關首長或於該工作場所中代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之人 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14162.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14190.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
好讓他定義明確我看今天早上審判會委員在質詢的時候也多次的提出要有效的去防治這個權勢的霸凌對於應負責人員的定義要有一個專門的相次所以我們視擬了這樣的文字希望爭取大家的支持那第一項就是更明確漏掉了第一項我們也修正為各機關違反前條第一項所定辦法我想這個應該是沒有問題請就教於大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14192.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14214.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好 黃委員好 謝謝了 延續剛剛第19條的討論第19條我們在處理的有關於是構成要件的問題邁入了第19條之一 我們接下來就要處理法律效果的問題在法律效果上面 因為公務員他面對有關於職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14216.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14239.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
工作安全環境的提供以及職場霸凌的防止他所應該肩負的公法上義務程度絕對不應該低於僱主在勞動場所要提供這樣的環境以及防止職法霸凌的公法上義務我想這樣說應該大家是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14240.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14256.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
在公共體系當中所應該肩負的公法上義務既然不應該低於在職場上面雇主所肩負的義務的話就相對應法律效果的違反就不宜低於 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14257.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14284.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
在治安法裡面法律效果的安排因此在剛剛所講的那個法規範基本上價值跟邏輯的安排上我先請我們的主管機關來看一下我們第19條之一針對你們的第二項所提出來的修正你們訂的是2萬元以上20萬以下的罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14287.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14302.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
針對相同的一個行為的態樣就是人家出來建議出來吹哨還給他不利對待的話在職安法那邊我如果沒有理解錯誤的話應該是3萬以上75萬以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14305.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14332.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那你們是不是可以考慮如果行政機關的公法上義務不應該較低的話違反的法律效果比較低 這個很奇怪這個是我們做的第一點的修正建議那第二點的修正建議的部分就牽涉到刑事責任的部分刑事責任的部分今天在保訓會所提出來的書面資料當中 意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14333.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14356.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
違反這個公法上面的義務釀成所謂災害的結果的話你們希望回到刑法過失致死罪或者是過失致重傷罪來加以處理你們的書面報告我都有詳細的拜讀但是我先分兩個部分說我們為什麼認為在這裡還是要跟治安法一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14357.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14372.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
訪時安法的條文去放有關於刑事責任的處罰容我說明一下我們首先針對大家比較關心的自人與死這樣的狀況自人與死這樣子的狀況按照我們目前法院實際上面所出現的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14380.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14401.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
因為有相同規範模式的是目前為止是職安法在職安法裡面我們的法院目前所出現的判決我想我就先把具體的判決字號都把它放進去這樣立法院公報會比較清楚未來大家要解釋所計的時候會比較清楚譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14403.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14427.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
在台北立法院113年度勞安數字第一號的刑事判決當中他非常清楚的說明了什麼他非常清楚的說明的是說在職安法裡面違反職安法的義務釀成所謂死亡的結果他跟刑法276條的過世致死罪他的構成要件是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14428.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14438.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
構成要件是不一樣 那既然構成要件是不一樣的它就沒有所謂法規禁核或是想像禁核的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14439.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14467.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
這個是第一步要先確立的事情好那我們要回到這個法律的規範來講當構成要件不一致的時候哪一個構成要件對於提供對於提供它安全必要的保護的違反的處罰更有效我們就必須要從這個角度去切入思考那比較麻煩的事情是什麼比較麻煩的事情是你如果要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14468.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14484.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
刑法276條過失致死的話你必須要什麼你必須要在現場參與指揮同時有管理監督的疏失自發生被害人死亡的災害結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14485.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14513.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
才會什麼才會有276條的適用也就是依照我國最高法院89年度台上6396號判決的意旨276的適用是窄的是窄的當276的適用是窄的時候你就會凸顯出來了在治安法在治安法另外去做不同規範構成要件的規定它所存在的特殊意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14514.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14530.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
因為他是除了一般通常的法律的注意義務跟保護義務之外在治安法的層級有給僱主更高的義務所以相對的他在構成要件上面比回到普通刑法276條的構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14532.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14559.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
要更為寬鬆或是更能夠去落實這一個僱主的保護義務它的規範的條文是有存在的必要性那當院知道這件事情的時候恐怕就不是單純的一句說回到刑法276條過世致死就可以處理的因為他們兩個在構成要件的射程範圍上面寬窄是不一的那以慈安法會稍微大一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14560.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14585.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
所以再加上如果說我們回到我剛剛所講在制定法律效果的第二個原則我們公務機關所承擔的公法上面的注意義務跟照顧保護義務不應該低於雇主這樣的規範要件上面的話我們還是會建議在治安法那一邊就有關於刑事責任的特別構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14586.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14595.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
在這一個公務人員保障法裡面必須要把它寫進去這樣才可以落實我剛剛所講的那一個價值的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14596.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14620.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
最後一個我們在跟治安法那邊有做差別待遇的部分請大家看一下治安法那邊自身死亡事故他是處五年以下有期徒刑就跟刑法那邊是一致但是為了要去彰顯我們在公務機關必須要負有更高的公法上面義務相對的違反就應該有更高的法律效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14621.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14640.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我們又希望能夠保留給法官在個案裁量上面的空間所以我們把它定為七年以下的郵寄徒刑那我並沒有去定最低的刑度喔因為你只要不管是五年以下還是七年以下最低的刑度都是從兩個月以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14641.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14663.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
開始算 所以大家也不用擔心說這樣子我們的公務的同仁會不會一下子被判得太重不用做這樣擔心但是我覺得在法定型上面去反映出來說我們在公務機關所應該承擔的公法上的義務是比雇主的義務要來得高這件事情是具有重大的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14664.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14688.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那第三個部分也是我今天早上在跟主委在討論的時候交換過意見你們針對有關於職場罷免科處罰款的對象的機關手帳我們如果按照中央機關組織基準法裡面的規定即使到第四級的話恐怕那個範圍都有一點太窄回應到我們現在在實際上面發生的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14688.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14715.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那所以我們所提出來的建議是說只要有主管職位的主管人員就把他列入在這個設整範圍之內以上是我們針對19條之一所提出的三項修正動議好 謝謝 那行政機關這邊有沒有意見補充跟委員報告首先是有關於這個吳思堯委員們的提案這個我們完全接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14716.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14735.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
也非常謝謝這個吳委員讓我們再次可以有審視讓他更明確化第二部分有關於黃國昌委員的部分呢這個部分呢原則上我們也都是完全接受因為本來以為是說這個草案跟後面的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14737.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14759.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
七年三五年是還有一百五十萬兩百萬好像是對不起來但是剛剛委員有提到就是這個是經過你思考過的讓這個沒有設最低但是直接設了一個比較高的這樣子在審議的過程當中呢可能就不會讓我們大量的優秀公務人員會很害怕然後趕快就 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14760.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14768.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
因為當主管壓力真的很大那這個前面的部分我們都接受那有個部分想懇請委員是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14768.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14792.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我們來把文字稍微再改一下 就是機關首長或一級單位主管因為剛剛委員您在質詢的時候 司長他是屬於一級單位主管那如果一般的政府機關裡面 其實包含縣市政府的股長啦 課長啦 然後科長他們雖然也是主管 可是基本上大概所有的主要涉及到重要的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14792.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14821.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
不會是這些層級的人自己就可以決掉或決定所以如果說黃委員還有在座所有委員可以支持我們把他改成一級單位主管的話也能達到原來的您修正的這個效果以上說明那這樣行政機關這邊可不可以你們現在趕快擬一下然後如果說就綜合吳委員跟黃委員的這個提案然後趕快綜合我們提出來的文字如果大家都覺得OK那其實就 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14822.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14848.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
就沒有問題了還是黃委員剛剛那個主委這樣講我同意有時候科法環我們關就是有權力夠大的真的要被處罰但你剛剛講你要怕一個科長一個股長就這樣可能有的時候可能也太重了所以一級單位主管您提的這樣子的修正建議我們是欣然同意那翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14852.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14877.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
請教主委因為我們今天在質詢的時候其實您有提到就是說未來所謂的負責人員會依照分層負責表事務機關的分層負責表裡面來定可是如果說按照現在吳斯堯委員他們所提出的版本的話負責人員是指機關首長或於該工作場所中等於說實質上具有指揮監督的那麼其實如果說按照您剛先前的說法其實是不是也可以再把就是說所謂的機關負責人員除了機關首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14880.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14905.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
之後還有依照這個什麼分層負責表裡面具有什麼指揮監督權的也是屬於這個範圍裡面還是說您覺得說現在吳思瑤委員所寫的這個部分就已經涵蓋到您之前講的分層負責表裡面的那些幹部跟委員報告目前吳思瑤委員所提的這個版本他已經可以含過我們這個機關裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14907.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14929.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
分層負責明細表裡面會談到的那些所謂的應負責人員因為這樣子的規定它可以涵蓋住而且也很清楚的知道就是說代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮監督執行職務之人那因為分層負責明細表每個機關長得不太一樣而且也會即使同一機關它也會因為這個公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14931.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14958.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
跟這個目標的這個會隨著環境修正所以那個分層負責明細表它其實是會需要經常性的去修正以符合學區的所以那個部分不一定在這個裡面那希望對我說在文字上面細指機關首長或依分層負責表或於工作場所中等等代表機關首長您說是多加了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14959.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14988.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
一個是機關首長嘛另外一個就是或者是依照這個機關的分層負責明細表或者是與該工作場所中他可能不是屬於分層負責明細表但是呢仍然是在場所當中他是工作場所當中是具有代表實際的這個這個主管他有指揮監督權的你們可以就提供給你們做思考因為待會如果說還要有一個請你們要在你相關的條文的話可以一定參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14989.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15007.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
好 謝謝委員好 那是不是你們這邊趁現在我們這邊可以暫時先保留這一個條我們往下去去審查然後你們現在趕快綜合一下我想這個兩位委員的提案已經幾乎都差不多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15008.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15034.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
好那我們就先暫時的這個保留第19之1那我們現在審查第19之2那有司法院有考試院提案還有委員林月琴等31人提案委員審發會等4人所提修正動議好那請問一下在場的提案人是否要做提案發言好那沒有的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15049.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15053.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
好謝謝主席不好意思我可以謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15054.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15072.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
民進黨團有增列第二項的後半段也就是所謂的重大災害死亡事故因果關係之認定或裁處我們也是就讓它明確化所謂的我們的文字是這樣有關因果關係之審認與裁處原則審議程序及組成等事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15078.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15091.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
由保訓會定之也就是授權保訓會把這個整個事件因為每個事件總是而且它是涉及因果關係的話一定有必要的調查認定然後才會進駐裁處那相關的這些原則作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15095.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15111.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
然后审查的程序然后谁来审授权给保宣会来进行这样子补正这一项会更为完整更为明确民进党团提出第三项的增列就是一个更进步的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15112.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15141.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
也說除了發生事情之後然後你們去做事實認定裁處我們更強化要對於職場霸凌的事前的防治那事前的防治就比照職安法所賦予的我們對於一些勞檢安檢這些東西是不是也把這樣的機制可以納入我們公務體系所以民進黨團增列了第三項文字是這樣的保訓會對於各機關安全及衛生防護措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15142.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15155.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
或防免职场霸凌行为得实施检查所以赋予一个得就是要实施检查的意思或通知其上级机关实施检查句号 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15156.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15170.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那後半段是這樣,檢查之後怎麼樣呢?其有不合規定者,應告知違反法令條款,並通知借其改善。借其未改善,按違失情節輕重,皆依相關規定處理。這大概都是適用職安法裡面對於安全檢查、勞檢的意義。 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15177.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15204.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
一般的这个既定的程序所以治安法里面有好的经验运行的经验我们可以纳入我们的保障法里头所以请行政机关可以表达一下你们的立场那也恳请在党委员大家一起来支持事后的裁处要有明确性的让保训会去授权调查的原则程序而事前的防范要透过一个绵密的安全检测 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15205.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15233.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
防治霸凌的這些巡查來落實 謝謝好 請問其他提案委員還有沒有要補充提案說明好 沒有的話 那請問行政機關這邊喔有沒有意見要補充是否可以接受謝謝委員那這個民進黨團的這個版本呢讓我們有兩個較現行的草案更好的部分第一個就是給了我們一個很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15234.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15258.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
法規的授權才不會說我們原來地方其實是沒有的也沒法源也是空白授權那這樣子對行政機關來講也不好第二點就是說有關於這個第二個部分這個增加了這個保訓會與對各機關的這個實施檢查的一個法源那我想這個也相當程度的回應了很多基層的公務人員跟外部覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15258.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15272.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
保訓會應該要扮演更積極主動角色的一個進步的做法所以有關於這個提案這個修正動議保訓會全部都接受非常感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15274.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15302.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好那好補充一下對不起謝謝提醒我剛剛漏掉了因為我們19條之一的第一項有增加那個嗎各機關違反前條第一項所定辦法對不對那現在在第19條之二的1234第四項的後半段有未符第19條第一項所定辦法之規定是不是要加這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15304.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15315.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
好報告召委我漏掉了好沒問題就是1234第4項的後半段有衛福第19條第1項OK請確認一下因為這也是行政部門提醒我的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15318.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15345.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那待會就麻煩行政機關這邊也把這一條也一起把文字提出來好那其他如果沒有別的意見我們這條也同時暫時保留那我們接下來審排序六增訂第19條之三由委員林月琴等31人提案請問各位委員有沒有要補充的好那沒有的話請問行政機關就19條之三行政機關有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15352.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15353.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
對 排序六 19條之三19條之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15360.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15387.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
就是不予增訂嗎 行政機關的意思不予增訂好 謝謝各位委員是否同意第19條之3不予增訂同意那接下來我們審查排序7第20條有委員徐欣盈等27人提案那請問行政機關有沒有意見要補充不予增訂 建議維持草案版本 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15389.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15408.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
好那各位委員是否同意同意好那就第20條就不予徵訂不予修正不好意思那個排序8好第21條有考試院提案還有許新穎等27人提案還有蔡其昌等18人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15411.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15431.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
因為都沒有到場 請問行政機關有沒有意見要補充建議維持原草案的內容 謝謝本條就照考試院提案通過 請問各位委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15433.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15452.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
好同意好那我們現在審查排序9第22條有委員蔡吉昌等18人提案好那因為蔡委員不在場那請問行政機關有沒有有什麼意見建議維持這個草案版本謝謝條文現行條文現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15455.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15484.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好 就不予修正的意思嗎 不予修訂好 那第22條不予修訂 請問不予修正 請問各位有沒有不同意 或是否同意好 翁委員我剛剛仔細看了就是蔡啟昌委員這裡所提的提案是說如果未來是因為職場霸凌所射送的是不是也可以申請補助對不對 他的意思是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15488.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15517.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
是那所以但是那你們你們是反反對嗯他是把他把職霸的這個部分列入說應不予補助是應不予補助但是因為現行本來就不會去補助職霸所以我們建議就是就維持現行條文因為現行條文本來就已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15518.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15528.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
符合了這個蔡委員的這個部分故意因為他這個基本上整個的內容就是跟我們原來的條文是一致的內容是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15529.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15552.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
只是他特別有加了一個或職場霸凌那這個部分不用特別去寫他本來就不會包含在因公社總輔助裡面這是我們覺得維持原條文的主要理由謝謝委員提出 謝謝所以先進觀的意思是第二十二條的部分不予修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15553.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15559.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
建議不要修訂因為維持電資費用的必要條件必要還是很重要如果把必要拿掉的話會變得很腐爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15581.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15595.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
建議不修訂 謝謝第二四條部分 行政機關的意見為不予修正維持現行條文 請問各位委員是否同意 好 翁委員不好意思 我還是想請教 因為這裡是公務員員執行職務電資的費用那電資的費用就代表他是幫服務機關帶電的費用對不對 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15607.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15635.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那可是你們原來的條文是說帶電的必要費用是才可以請服務機關償還是那這個必要費用變成說有服務機關自己去認定是不是必要可是他明明就是幫公務人員幫機關帶電的不管是不是必要他就是幫機關帶電的不是嗎他這個所謂的我們為什麼這個條文現行條文一路執行下來都有必要兩個字是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15637.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15657.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
雖然委員認為說那個每一個都是他可能對當公務人員來講他認為是都是必要但是呢這個必要他有可能分成說現在是符合可以了或是他用了更高的費用所以我們會堅持就是說蠻強烈請委員支持啦那個必要兩個字還是要留著不然的話呢可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15658.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15669.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
造成這個公帑也許因為當事人他沒有是必要的但他帶電了那這個時候其實就會可能會有腐爛的現象造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15672.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15692.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
而且他有一些相關的 主總有一些相關的規定啦那些都是叫做必要所以主委剛剛的意思是說有些情況 譬如說我可能因為假設慶齡需要我買一支筆假設一支圓子筆就可以了 但他買了一支鋼筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15693.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15696.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
第二四條的部分行政機關的意思是不予修正然後維持現行條例請問各位委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15721.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15732.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
同意好那24條不予修正維持現行調溫我們現在審查排序11第24條之一有文許信等27人提案那請問行政機關有意見補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15735.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15753.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
跟會上報告,這個非常的強烈歉意不修訂,因為請求權消滅時效是必須法律明定的,而且是屬於憲法保留的事項請問各位委員,就24條之一,行政機關的意見是希望不予修正,維持現已條文,是否同意? |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15754.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15782.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
好 那就本條文不予修正 維持現行條文那我們現在審查第12排序12 增訂第84條之一 由委員許馨等27人提案請問行政機關有意見跟會上報告 我們建議不增訂因為這個剛剛吳委員的那個修正動議裡面我們已經就是已經會有這個部分了 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15786.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15811.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
在19條之二已經有放了是是是是是一的部分是要主動調查對他的文字就增訂第84條之一行政機關建議不予修正維持限定條不予增訂請問各位委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15814.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15842.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
嗯 翁委員有 是否同意好啦 是永涵幹嘛 因為我剛正在看你說19條第一的 之一的第幾項 他們說正動議19條之二我沒有看到你們是講說哪裡有說他要主動 主動調查 因為因為84條之一的徐欣怡委員的提案 他的意思是說保訓會 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15844.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15870.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
知道有發生有類似霸凌的情況的時候就要依法要主動進行調查在這個修正動議這一張的第二段黑黑的這裡面已經有這個文字了就這一張但是他是得實施檢查是但是就缺了這個所謂的要主動進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15875.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15903.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
對 如果說按照你們原來持久條之二的一二三第三項保訓會對於各機關安全及防衛措施等等的行為得實施檢查跟委員報告因為我們實施檢查當然基本上就是由保訓會主動所以如果說原來的剛剛大家委員們通過的這個修正動議三十九之二的這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15904.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15922.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
就已經不用特別去強調說主動或者是非主動因為保訓會去實施檢查一定是我們主動所以建議這個維持剛剛已經修正動議三大家各位委員同意通過的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15929.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15951.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
如果說是維持增加84條之一的話會有什麼困難嗎因為你其實你19條之二的地方只是說它好類似像是例行性的你們去檢查但是84條之一它的重點是強調如果說有人檢舉或是通報一個什麼事情那你們這時候知道了這樣子有處置不當的狀況就要依本法要主動進行調查我覺得概念還是不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15951.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15976.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
跟委員報告齁 文字可能不一樣 可是它的概念跟它實際執行會一樣所以在19-2我們已經 因為它很重要所以已經剛剛委員們通過了 先提到前面去了那如果在這邊84條之一又出現一段跟19-2剛剛通過的那些文字很類似的話那這整個法的這個一致性跟邏輯性就顯得很 比較奇怪一點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15976.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16000.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好那這樣的話我提個具體建議啦就是你的第三項裡面的構成要件看能不能再加上徐姓委員這裡所提的當知有當這個知悉有這個相關的服務機關管理措施或有關工作條件處置不當的時候然後就得實施檢查好不好就是可以把那個構成那個條件再放進去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16001.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16007.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
就除了一個例行性之外另外就是當你知悉了立刻知悉了這件事情的時候就知有什麼什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16008.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16037.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我覺得應該是可以啦可以放在一起好謝謝委員那84條之一我想說就跟前面那個19之一之二我們先暫時保留那麻煩行政機關這邊把文字處理好之後那我們就一併處理那我們現在暫時先保留排序12的84條之一那我們現在先審查排序13的第89條有委員徐信義等27人提案請問行政機關有沒有意見補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16039.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16067.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
跟各位委員報告我們建議不修訂因為這個如果是依許委員這個依當事人之申請這當事人呢是範圍是非常廣的那這個而且會影響到整個的這個處理當事人也這個範圍太廣了建議請各位委員能夠支持我們原來的這個現行條文 謝謝行政機關的意思是不予修正維持現行條文請問各位委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16073.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16102.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
所以如果說從保障公務人員的角度來講那當事人當然是只處分當事人啊他不可能說是你的當事人的範圍涵蓋太廣會把什麼第三人利害關係的人都是納在當事人的這個概念裡他這條的規定的積極性就在於說除了主管機關他一直權做行政處分之外另外可以當事人申請好我希望你們在實務上面能夠做到只要有人提的時候你們就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16104.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16113.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
沒有啦 我簡單講啦我覺得應該是主委剛剛比較緊張口誤啦依照現在的規定 當事人本來就可以申請嘛然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16115.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16134.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
加上當事人你反而要去思考另外一個問題是只有當事人可以申請嗎所以不是太廣是太窄啦不過我聽得懂主委剛剛講什麼啦應該是比較緊張口誤啦謝謝委員這樣是不是我們就維持不予修正維持現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16135.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16159.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
好 各位是否同意好 同意的話 那我們現在審查第102條有考試院提案委員徐信穎等27人提案委員蔡其昌等18人提案委員吳思瑤等4人所提修正動議請問在場提案人是否要說明不用齁 不用 那請行政機關表示意見102條 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16166.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16187.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
大家可以參照我們所發下來的資料我就是在最後一項有更明確化跟治安法之間的適用機關有不同所以把醫療機關跟公立學校來做最後一項增訂文字的排除請大家支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16189.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16202.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
好 那請問行政機關吳委員的修正動議你們可以接受嗎可以 謝謝那我們就102條的部分還有 對不起我漏掉了對不起吳委員我一樣的問題我剛剛就是說102條的最後一項還有就是倒數 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16214.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16239.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
倒數第五行 第六行 一樣准用第十九條第一項 要加一個第一項剛剛這個要以一併的完整 謝謝主席那這個是請行政機關這邊趕快把那個文字稍微擬一下好 那我們現在審查第104條有考試院提案及委員黃國昌等三人所提修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16242.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16259.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那請提案人黃國昌委員那個104條的最後一項我們不要略人之美啦因為那個鍾憲兄有跟我講嘛說考試院他們剛在提的時候那個施行日期的部分漏未規範希望我們這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16260.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16282.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
幫忙處理嘛那中線其實也就幫依照考試院這邊的請求幫忙處理的最後一項那只不過說我們修正動議所提的最後一項跟考試院給我們的條文希望我們提的最後一項有一點不一樣因為考試院本來是希望說施行日期給你們定嘛但我必須要老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16283.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16296.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那個施行日期給行政機關訂這件事情我作為一個立法委員我真的是怕了嚇壞了因為本來以為好意你們需要準備給你們訂結果呢給你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16300.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16322.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
方便就當隨意一變要搞到天荒地老搞到天荒地老都不施行的所以我們這邊就直接壓就是你們六個月夠不夠如果六個月不夠更短可以要改成三個月我們也很樂意但我要請那個保訓會的主委要能夠諒解我們不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16323.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16349.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
真的讓你們訂 我現在押的是六個月六個月你會不會覺得不用這麼多時間我們三個月就可以 押三個月我們也OK 以上說明請問行政機關不好意思 我是說剛剛補充那個就是國常委員公布後六個月內六個月內會變成沒有確定日期六個月內施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16351.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16378.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
但是六個月施行的話,是公布後六個月內但是我的意思是,你那個cutting point我權利沒有給行政機關嘛那你如果把人六個月內,那你就搞不清楚就是說那到底什麼時候就是六個月中間這段時間,可能兩個月、三個月一定要施行我先讓主委他們表示意見好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16380.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16404.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
黃委員這個版本當然是對保訓會非常的nice就是說公佈後六個月了那也的確這個我們當時寫考試院定日其實我們不是要自己來定日期是因為照過去的版本就把它寫出來完全沒有去想因為我們現在考試院跟保訓會想的就是這個不管是安慰辦法或者是保障法我們在還 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16406.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16434.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
在還沒有通過這個保障法還沒有通過這個貴文會審議之前其實我們已經開始在準備了所以這個六個月當然讓我們可以更加的寬裕那這個六個月我們沒有問題三個月好不好這個可能要問一下秘書長三個月太六個月啦 六個月啦就委員一開始的六個月就是很好的這樣子同仁也不用加班啦好好好 OK就六個月 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16436.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16454.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
好 六個月 主席我們六個月嗎好那我們這個也是先暫時保留你們要修那個 他要修文字吧不用嗎這個應該有連動吧對 所以說暫時保留 因為有連動 跟前面有連動 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16470.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16487.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
十九之一跟十九之二還沒有還沒有還在暫時保留中好那十九之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16759.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16784.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
好我們請議事人員宣讀宣讀討論四項第一案修正動議五對照考試院提案第四九條之一序文第一項序文各機關違反前條後面加第一項等字 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16786.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16804.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
然後第二項修正為前項第一款進行處應負責人員新台幣3萬元以上75萬元以下罰款的案次處罰第三項後段修正為處 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16809.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16837.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
應負責人員新台幣三萬元以上一百五十萬元以下罰款第四項修正為第一項第三款刑刑致生重大災害者處應負責人員三年以下有期徒刑拘獲科或病科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金致生死亡事故者處七年以下有期徒刑拘獲科或病科新台幣兩百萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16843.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16866.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
第七項修正為機關首長或一級單位主管人員經認定職場霸凌成立者處薪台幣一萬元以上一百萬元以下罰款第八項修正為第一項至第四項所稱應負責人員細指機關首長或與該工作場所代表機關首長實際執行管理指揮或監督公務人員執行職務之任 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16878.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16885.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
與未修正提案人黃國昌、吳思瑤、莊瑞雄、陳培宇審發會吳宗憲宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16888.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16913.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那我們審查排序是增訂第19條之一那我們經過跟行政機關討論那由行政機關依據剛委員的建議有修正那我們是否第19條之一就依據委員黃國昌等6人所提的修正動議通過請問各位委員是否同意同意齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16927.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16938.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
主席各位委員因為19條之一涉及到新增刑事處罰的條款所以我想提供一點意見供大院參考那新增了這個規範類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16941.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16962.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
在相同的這個類似的立法例在職安法上第40條跟41條有這個明文的規定所以本條是不是徵定這個刑事責任的處罰這個部分我們尊重主管機關的意見跟大院的決定那如果要尊重因為目前是以黃委員的這個修正動議為藍本 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16964.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16987.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
那關於這個部分,我想有兩點提出來,供大院參酌一下第一個就是說,構成要件的部分那構成要件的部分,我們這一條的第四項它規範的大概就違反第一項第三款情形兩種結果,一個是自身重大災害那第二種是死亡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16987.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17012.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
那重大災害的部分在第七項做立法定義它指的是兩種情形一種情形是罹災人數在三人以上那第二種是發生災害罹災人數一人以上且需住院治療那關於死亡還有罹災人數三人以上的這兩種類型跟治安法40條41條規範是一模一樣那第三種的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17018.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17041.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
離災人數一人以上且需住院治療者尤其是後段的這一句且需住院治療者我想在文藝解釋上他的可能性會有不明確的疑慮比如說他到底是不是有住院治療是由誰來判定那你應該要住院他沒有去住院因為這個涉及到 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17043.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17063.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
這一條涉及到行者有三年以下的有期徒刑我想在法律明確性的原則下建議大院能夠再審酌另外我也參考到這一個一人以上且需住院治療者這個在 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17066.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17095.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
職安法37條第一項第三款就有這個類型不過剛剛我查閱了一下職安法的這個規定這種類型並沒有處刑事責任他的刑事責任只有死亡跟罹災人數三年以上那這一個部分是不是要列入刑者的這個構成要件我想這個敬請大院能夠再斟酌那另外就是說刑度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17096.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17112.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
目前我們的這個動議就是刑度是採三年以下跟七年以下那這個立法類型的參佐的是職安法的規定目前職安法的規定是一年以下跟三年以下那如果是勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17114.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17133.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
公告的這個修正草案他是修成三年以下跟五年以下那我們的目前現在在討論的這個動議是三年以下跟七年以下大概刑度又比勞動部公告的草案來得高那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17135.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17149.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
這兩部法就說這個條文的規定所保護的法益同樣是生命法益只是他在不同的這個法規上出現而已那是不是在刑度上要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17150.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17168.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
老安法這邊做脫鉤處理這個部分我也想提供請大院能夠再斟酌那當然最後怎麼樣的決定我想在政策上或者是立法裁量上這個我們尊重主管機關最終的意見跟大院的決定以上說明黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17172.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17184.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
那個第二點先直接回應我剛剛一開始在講我們針對有關於90條之一法律效果界定的時候我就已經說明過了雖然保護的都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17185.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17210.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
生命法義沒有錯那但是呢在刑法可規則性上面行為人他自己本身所應該負擔的義務的輕重伴隨著他的身份會有不一樣形式上面的評價這個是為什麼我特意在公務人員的部分跟治安法脫鉤那從五年以上到七年以下我剛前面就已經有清楚的說明過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17211.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17235.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那第二個部分針對有關於重大災害的範圍就重大災害的範圍是只發生災害的罹災人數在3人以上沒有錯這個部分是治安法的本來想說希望擴大如果即使在1人以上住院治療也可以涵掛在裡面那不過你剛剛所提出來的建議我覺得有道理所以我同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17236.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17259.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
那個三人以上後面就直接就句號了直接跟治安法37條第一項第二款的規定來直接向扣棄然後後面或一人以上住院治療的那個部分就把它給刪除掉那我不曉得說其他剛剛有連署的委員是不是也都同意就把後面或那個全部到最後給刪除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17260.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17285.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
可以嗎?那那個法務部就這個部分有要堅持什麼?因為如果說要堅持,變成說我們今天好多條都要保留然後讓他們自己去跟...剛剛沒有說,我只是說最後還是尊重主管機關跟大院的決定那就這樣嘛,就再做一次修改嘛,文字上面趕快處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17290.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17296.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
對,這樣子是比較快啊好,那我們現在趕快處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17301.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17321.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
代務委員那個藉由這個會議空檔跟大家報告一下那個劉建新秘書長謝謝大家的關心那他有去醫院做了檢查那一切都還無礙啦那也請他強制請他要回去休息那謝謝今天召委讓他提早離開謝謝所有委員對他的通融 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17322.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17331.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
理解然後我們大家都請他好好休息你們要盯好他今天不准再上班好嗎謝謝大家關心是要代表那個他報告給大家謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17458.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17486.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
好 起議事人員宣讀請說修正動議對照修正動議五第十九條之一第八項修正為第四項所稱重大災害只發生災害之離災人數在三人以上者宣讀完畢好 那請問各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17488.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17517.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
增訂第十九條之一就按照委員黃國昌等六人所提修正動議修正通過各位是否同意好那就依照修正通過那另外因應第十九條之一條文修正後需配合一併調整的立法說明部分請考試院依據委員修正意見你依據的內容緊述備文函送審查會那以列入審查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17520.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17520.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
他們知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17767.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17794.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
那請議事人員再次宣讀修正動議五再修正第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17796.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17814 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
就證為機關首長或一級單位主管應認定職場霸凌成立者處新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還提案人黃國昌、吳思堯、莊瑞雄、陳培宇、沈發慧、吳宗憲、翁曉琳 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17815.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17842.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
好那這部分我們更正剛剛的宣告那我們是否就第19條之一就依據剛剛所宣讀的修正通過各位委員是否同意同意好那就依據剛剛的修正通過好那19之2可以嗎好請議事人員宣讀19之2 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17850.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17870.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
宣讀修正動議六對照稿書原提案第十九條之二第二項後段增列有關因果關係之審認與處原者審議程序及組成等事項由保訓會定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17872.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17900.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
申令第三項保訓會知悉各機關安全及衛生防護措施或防免職長霸凌行為有不當或違法得主動實施檢查或通知其上級機關實施檢查其有不合規定者應告知違反法令條款並通知藉其改善藉其未改善案為失清重依相關規定處理第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17902.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17930.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
後段修正為由衛府第十九條第一項與未修正提案人黃國昌、翁曉琳、吳思瑤、莊瑞雄、沈發慧、吳宗憲、陳北宇修正完畢請問各位委員本條增訂第十九條之二依據委員黃國昌等七人所提修正動議通過請問各位委員是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17932.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17934.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
同意 好 那就依據修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17947.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17965.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我們現在審查排序第12 剛剛暫時保留的增訂第84條之一本條的增訂不予增訂 各位委員是否同意本條就不予增訂現在審查排序14 第102條請議事人員宣讀宣讀修正動議期 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17975.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17976.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
對照考試院提案第102條除第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17983.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18011.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
修正為法定機關構非屬第三條及第一項鎖定人員而有依法令從事與公職務者及提起職場霸凌之申訴準用第十九條至第十九條之二及依第十九條第一項鎖定辦法等相關規定但不含醫療機構及公立學校提案人吳思瑤 陳培宇 翁曉琳 沈發慧 莊瑞雄 選舉完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18017.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18032.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
好第102條部分我們依據委員吳世耀等5人所提修正動議通過請問各位委員是否同意好同意的話就依據修正動議通過那現在審查第104條 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18040.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18064.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
好 那請問104條的部分 我們依據黃國昌等三人所提的修正動議通過 請問各位委員是否同意好 那就依據修正動議通過本案逐條 據審查處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提起院會公決 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18083.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18084.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
本案是否要交由黨團協商?請問各位表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18096.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18121.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
不用 那不需要 本案不需交由黨團協商議員會討論時候由吳昭紀委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理好那我們接著討論事項第二案我們現在進行討論事項第二案公務人員任用法部分條文修正草案那請問要不要進行大力討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18122.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18142.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
不用 好 那請問在場委員我們就直接進入逐條審查現在我們先審查排序一第28條之一有委員翁曉琳等22人提案請問行政機關 請問翁曉琳委員是否要做提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18144.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18166.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
最後再重申就是說因為在現行的工人員任用法28條裡面雖然就定有育嬰假但是呢這個育嬰假的概念其實對於很多人誤解他不會認為說只是還包含的這個孫兒而且現在我們看到其他一些像月餅等於先進國家已經有把名定育孫假所以在此本席也很希望能夠獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18167.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18182.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
各個委員還有這個徐區部的這邊支持我們就在法律條文裡面就是明定多增加兩個字育孫但是它具有指標性的意義喔那麼可以讓所有的公務人員都知道未來如果說要照顧孫兒的話也可以請這個育孫假以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18183.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18199.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
好 請問行政機關鳩翁小林委員的提案有沒有辦法接受是 我們那個 全局部報告就是說那個在育嬰的概念裡面我們認為說要不要特別凸顯說另外育孫這件事情在立法技術上似乎可以不必增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18200.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18217.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那剛剛那個包括我們後面有釋清價我們釋清也不會去說他是是什麼樣等級的清那在事實上我們的公務人員請教公務員留職提供辦法就第二項的法律授權的部分那我們也看也 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18217.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18239.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那個看了翁曉琳委員的提案我想翁曉琳委員提案裡面有提到說希望我們遇孫的就是祖父母遇孫的部分把這個但書拿掉那這部分我們都競表同意那我們是認為說在立法技術上面我們可以直接把這後面把它就是由我們行政院有考試院會同行政院就把它修掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18240.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18260.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
那也達到翁曉琳委員立法的這個提案的這個意旨那當然因為這是屬於立法政策的部分當然我們最後都尊重那個大院審議的結果那我們行政部門就表達以上的意見 以上報告 謝謝所以就 所以行政機關這邊是可以接受翁委員的提案嗎剛行政機關的議事長 來好 沈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18267.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18287.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
行政機關的意思應該是說你們認為在立法基礎上最好是不要把把這個預算價再單獨列出來應該是這樣他不是說同意啦齁那這個部分我個人是是我也是肯定翁小林委員這個提案齁目前台灣這個很多事實上高齡社會很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18289.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18305.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
這個孩童都是由祖父母照顧啦但是這樣子的立法技術確實會有點問題因為它原本不是育兒假如果是育兒假,那就是育兒再加育孫、兒孫都加上去那原本是育嬰假它規範的是對於這個嬰兒的養育至於誰可以請育嬰假你們有規則有規則來規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18313.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18340.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
父母可以,祖父母現在也可以這個原本就有預孫架在育嬰架裡面那你現在單獨把預孫架列出來第一個在立法體力上變得很奇怪就是好像說例如說刑法說針對直系血清真心屬傷害加一個直系血清真心屬及阿公阿嬤傷害這個就變成立法上面體力變得很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18343.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18352.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
第二個他會造成問題就是本來育嬰家這個以嬰兒為對象你要育孫 你要育曾孫都可以但是你現在把這個育孫之後曾孫就不行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18353.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18373.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
以後要育曾孫就不行就被排除掉了不行不行不行我會講我翻出不好意思我不是真的我翻出翻出這個安寧安寧緩和醫療條例裡面他這個這個第四項裡面他這就把配成年子女孫子女曾孫子女這個都是分開要分開並列你不能寫一個育孫就包括曾孫 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18374.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18396.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
包括曾曾曾孫都不行了他這個在法律用語裡面都要單獨列出的所以我個人是覺得說這可以這個我們還是從長計議我們在立法技術上面要一個育嬰之後再多一個育孫那這個就文字上也蠻奇怪的說實在我覺得我請教一下翁委員你是有孫女啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18397.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18419.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
但是我是為廣大的祖父母還有廣大的父母來爭取權益啦因為我就說這個是一個指標性的意義而且請問一下你們現在在法條上面寫的育嬰價過去有多少的祖父母看到這個育嬰就是過去你們的案例曾經有申請過祖父母申請育嬰價的人比例高嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18420.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18421.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
你簡單講一下啦 嬰兒沒有八卦孫 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18436.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18441.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
有 我們現在有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦有得好啊 你就管路上啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18464.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18492.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
那立法理由不著橫擊講一下啦你把那個孫放進去真的就會很奇怪我們修改的理由跟修改的不是也是一樣沒有啦 綠營應該要給人家育孫就好像因為你這樣就變成你這樣曾孫沒講到囉會不會好歹要曾孫的部分以後就是可以讓全巡捕這個還是說還是說時間機關可不可以做一個附帶決議的方式處理啊主席我剛剛有出手 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18494.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18511.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
主席主席來來主席我有舉手所以我的意思是說就不要變動就是行政機關他做一個這個論述出來這樣子一個比較折衝我的意思是折衝啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18517.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18542.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
我覺得我明白翁委員的利益良善我也知道你說現在這個社會的境況但因為一個好的立法技巧應該真的不是這樣寫嘛因為孫跟英到底是誰包含於誰我相信大家都很清楚但是為了考慮到翁委員的利益良善是不是可以在立法說明裡面說清楚然後或者是後續在很多社會溝通或者是相關部門你們在跟公務人員宣導的時候其實加強宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18543.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18547.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
不斷的Promote這件事情它其實就是可以合理的成立這樣 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18552.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18572.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
我們是擔心愛知是足以害知從立法技術的角度來看我認為這樣的明顯是更明確我們講法律明確性育嬰的嬰的概念對一般人來講會認為只有生小孩的父母親申請育嬰假 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18573.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18579.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
大部分的這個祖父母不會認為說他們可以來申請育嬰假更何況我就說其實在這個條文裡面修了這樣子的育孫假這個是讓未來現在的父母親還會鼓勵他的子女趕快去生小孩那以後他們沒有時間照顧但是還可以申請育孫假 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18594.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18610.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
這個是對於所有的民眾來講我覺得這都是一個利益良善的條文這跟立法技術沒有關係我說如果談到立法技術來講的話那麼這樣子的一個寫法反而更有助於讓更多的民眾知道他就有權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18611.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18626.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
可以去申請育孫獎那我請問啦主席我請問那我就問沒關係歐委員我就請問如果我今天是有增孫的狀態我18歲18歲18歲依序往下升那我看到這個法條我會覺得我可以申請嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18628.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18637.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
不是你不能,不是你現在說可以就可以啦上一次,上一次我們在修法,上一次那個東西是要給法律系的學生看的你不能你現在說可以就可以啊我知道可以啦齁但是這樣講啦齁,我們就把它講白話一點,我知道翁維你的意思但是你這個翁氏法學邏輯就比較奇怪你那個孫齁,你這樣弄下去孫他絕對不會包含曾孫啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18654.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18658.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
你就這把曾孫給排除掉了 這不行 你那個只要是嬰喔只要是嬰兒都應該要受到這一個法律的利益良善的一個保護嘛你現在孫 你把他加一個孫之後 你曾孫之後好像可以去做一個排除這等於是講說 你弄一個說 我們的保護祖母你把它特定為祖母之後 祖母不會去包 不會去涵蓋到 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18681.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18694.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
那個曾祖父母一樣啊你列進去反而產生反效果不會啦 莊委員你如果說你說我的中文的這個解讀有問題我也才覺得您的對於這個孫的概念太狹隘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18711.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18713.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
誰會認為孫和曾孫是一樣的我再問一次 誰會認為孫和曾孫是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18736.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18754.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
你不要管法律,我是在與一般人的社會共事我今天為了孫跟我有一個孫孫是理由的嗎?育嬰的範圍更大就包括兒女,包括孫子,包括曾孫育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰育嬰,育嬰,育嬰,育嬰育嬰,育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育嬰育� |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18762.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18763.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
你們反對你們要反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18779.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18806.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
就应该要明定在法律里面这是你们反对你们反对祖父母有权利不要乱提标签我们没有反对绝对就是法律小学生不是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生是法律小学生 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18820.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18821.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
真的這是好事不要亂貼標籤 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18845.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18866.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
簡單的條文你們竟然反對你們竟然反對法律條文怎麼寫條文怎麼寫我們就保留在討論跟說法是一樣的嗎跟泡泡泡泡是一樣的嗎所以我說你們不要講對你們也失誤我現在指責我我要討論但是不要亂貼標籤不要亂貼標籤你們沒有反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18870.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18896.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
李燕秀等四人所提的修正動議那請問在場的李燕秀委員或翁小林委員是否要做提案說明好我簡單說明一下我36條之一是針對於全國人力的公共單位人力老化植物久任其實是不利於機關人力的發展跟人力的栽培那我們58年的時候就已經把派用人力的部分已經開始但是104年的時候當時廢止的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18898.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18920.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
只有九年的過渡條款也就是說在今年這個過渡條款其實就要截止我以台北市政府捷運局為例目前有二十位未滿六十歲的佔了百分之六十一點九五在捷運局裡面有四十六個人所以他的人比例非常的高在那個位置但是他也升不上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18921.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18936.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
那他要離到他退休年齡至少還有十年所以在這些位置其實新人或有年輕人他就沒有辦法在他位階上慢慢的往上走所以我覺得這個部分對於公務單位人力的老化也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18936.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18959.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
包括植物久任對於未來人力的栽培跟發展都不是正面的所以我才提出36條之一的修正那交通部我知道他們也對於有同樣的看法所以他們的也放寬了那我的修正動議也就是配合交通部的修正動議來去做處理希望委員會的委員能夠支持 以上 謝謝好 謝謝喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18963.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18981.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
請問行政機關這邊有沒有辦法接受修正動議是 報告委員會李委員所提的修正動議跟我們全序部今天在書面報告上所建議的再修正條文內容是一致的所以我們竟表同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18982.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18996.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
好那就那本條的部分我們就依據這個修正就依據委員翁曉琳李彥秀等事人所提的修正通過請問各位是否同意好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18999.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19028.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
好 那本案主條均已審查完畢 做以下宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決那本案須交由黨團學商院會討論時由吳釗及委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理好 那本次會議所列事項均已處理完畢到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家 |