| IVOD_ID |
16735 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16735 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-05T08:30:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-05T11:54:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:23:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd1c393f606ce943218bd03a951da4504bfdab1a38f0d348c0d35422f41642500a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。
【本日會議僅進行詢答】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:14 - 11:54:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1943.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1949.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
現在出席委員已達法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1953.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1978.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期交通委員會第十三次全體委員會議事錄時間一百一四年五月二十八日星期三上午九十至中午十二時十八分五月二十九日星期四上午九十至十一時二十八分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員林國成等十五人列席委員黃婕等十九人列席官員五月二十八日國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳重樹等 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1979.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2001.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
5月29日國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德等主席林召集委員國程5月28日報告四項一宣布上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二處理113年度附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管預算凍結案計15案決定個案順便報告以送達均與以備查提報院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2002.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2011.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
討論四項一審查一百一四年度國家通訊川普委員會預算凍結案及二案二繼續審查電信管理法修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2013.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2037.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本日會議由國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹報告後紀委員洪孟凱等15人提出質詢均經代理主任委員陳崇樹及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一報告及詢答完畢二委員游浩等二人所提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請國家通訊傳播委員會盡數以書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2038.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2046.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
4 審查結果以114年度國家通訊傳播委員會預算凍結案及二案以政務人員待遇預算凍結七分之四案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2046.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2075.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
一通過提案一項二本案提報院會是國家通訊傳播委員會人事同意案送達立法院並經立法院院會完成審查程序後及同意動資二業務費預算凍結10%案本案同意動資提報院會二電信管理法修認草案等五案一第五條趙委員黃建豪等五人及委員許智傑等三人所提修認動議通過二第八條第九條第四十條及第七十五條均 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2076.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2097.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
不予修正 維持現行條文三 徵定第八條之一 不予徵定四 第七十九條 趙委員 黃建豪等五人及委員徐志傑等三人所提修運動議通過五 通過附帶決議以下六 病案審查完略 拟據審查報告提報院會討論 院會討論前不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由林召集委員國層補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2098.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2122.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
5月29日報告四項處理一百一四年度國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計五案決定個案書面報告已送達均已被查提報院會討論四項處理國家運輸安全調查委員會涵為一百一四年度中央政府總預算決議預算凍結案本人會議由國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德報告後經由委員洪孟凱等13人提出質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2123.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2144.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
軍監主任委員連憲德及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一報告及詢談完畢二委員廖新祥等上任所提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或會及答覆部分請國家運輸安全調查委員會盡數以書面答覆四本案同意通知提報院會散會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2149.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2176.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
先介紹在場委員我們林國成 趙偉介紹列席官員我們行政院公共工程委員會陳金德主委陳偉祥副主委李怡德副主委羅天健主秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2178.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2189.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
技術處曾鈞敏處長工程管理處陳春錦處長採購申訴審議委員會張明珠執行秘書中央採購集合小組蔡承平記政法官會陳韻時執密資訊推動小組沈恒光執密 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2211.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2225.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
衛福部心理健康師李秉璋基站護理及健康照護師蔡明翰科長曾淑芬專門委員社會家庭署劉芝琳視察 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2236.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2264.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
內政部國土署建築管理組盧昭宏兼任政工程師本日會議審查計時法修正草案公三案僅進行宣達程序請委員說明提案要旨沒有委員在這邊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2267.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2270.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
請機關代表報告請工程會曾經的主委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2281.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2304.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生有關委員徐欣寧等18人 委員陳俊尼等20人分別凝聚祭司法第11條條文修正草案委員武立法等19人凝聚祭司法第11條及第42條條文修正草案 計3案提出本會延期意見如下 敬請指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2305.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2325.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
一 委員徐信霖等18人 委員陳俊霖等20人 委員吳立華等19人 凝聚祭司法第11條修正草案部分修正重點為依第11條第一項第4款 建立違反身心障礙者權利公約刪除罹患精神疾病或身心狀況為常用語 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2326.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2348.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但依客觀事實認定技師不能執行業務情形 仍有限制其職業資格之必要研究認定方式 民電有狀況主管機關邀請相關專科醫師 技師公會代表及學者專家組成小組認定以兼顧公共安全 公共利益及技師權利二 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2349.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2363.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
委員習信義等18人另增訂第11條第三項明定不能執行業務之認定小組組織與運作辦法授權中央主管機關訂定以符授權明確化原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2364.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2391.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第二工程會延續意見有關各委員提案版本以本會114年5月20日函報行政院祭司法第11條修正草案內容相近包括本次委員提案刪除罹患精神疾病或身心狀況違常之歧視性文字另訂明有客觀事實認定祭司不能執行業務限制祭司 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2393.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2419.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
職業職格之認定方式並授權訂定認定機制外此外報行政院版考量依消費者債務清理條例所定程序清理債務者於回復其債信及財產行為能力前類似受破產宣告確定尚未付權者有債信不良及財產行為能力受限制之情形於第十一條第一項第三款 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2423.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2442.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
執照之要件原建議支持本會修正內容第二委員武力法等19人凝聚祭司法第42條條文修正草案部分修正重點為就利害關係人報請祭司懲戒涉及祭司辦理鑑定事務時建立出篩機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2443.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2463.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
與第12條徵定第二項及第三項利害關係人報請處理之情勢及涉及技師辦理鑑定事務者應先經目的事業主管機關直轄市縣市主管機關或技師工會審核後轉送技師懲戒委員會處理並與專要主管機關訂定審核轉送原則等之規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2467.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2481.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
工程會延續意見有關委員提案修正方向本會認同為經考量現行利害關係人得直接報請懲戒機制不限於技師辦理鑑定事務有被利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2482.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2499.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
成為解決失權爭執手段之可能或作為影響調解或訴訟程序之手段並參考會計司法第六三條建築司法第五十條等規定與第四十二條刪除利害關係人得直接交付懲戒之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2500.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2520.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
增訂第二項 利害關係員發現技師有為師情事時的類舉事實並提出證據報請目的事業主管機關、直轄市縣市主管機關或技師所屬技師工會審核後轉送技師懲戒委員會處理是規定已為作妥 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2521.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2549.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那中整本市各委員所提及本會建立之計施法第11條及第42條修正條文如附件以上報告敬請主席及各位委員先進指教 謝謝好 謝謝其餘機關書面包括列入記錄並刊登公報那現在再議決議事錄 現在請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 那我們議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2552.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2579.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好 現在進行詢問 先宣告以下事項詢問時間 出席委員6加1分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘委員登記發言於10點半截止各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出 以便疑似人員會診暫定10點半休息10分鐘 中午休息時間再另行宣布現在請登記第一位 洪孟楷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2588.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2615.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席謝謝 請陳主委請主委委員長主委好 本席有看到說您這幾天是以這個政務委員的身份跟台鐵相關單位召開安全改革追蹤會議那新聞也有看到台鐵事故頻傳政院要求比照道安匯報每月檢討是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2616.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2632.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為我負責這個台鐵安全的檢討的會議是本來是美計是那後來我們發覺相關的事故偏高還是偏傳偏高然後我們是要求說那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2633.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2655.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
先試看看每個月將發生的這些事故啊詳細的來做報告並檢討以及他這個相關責任歸屬所以是想比照這個交通道安匯報每個月開一次好 主委請教台鐵來是成績是什麼成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2656.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2680.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
跟你這邊開會董事長還有總經理以及代理董事長代理董事長對是好台鐵現在是公司為什麼會公司化在2024年的1月的時候正式公司化掛牌也已經一年多了當時給我們國人最大的要求也在這個交通委員會的這個會議室裡面審查公司條例的時候當時也講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2683.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2712.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
是要把相關的缺失相關的錯誤能夠因為公司化之後來改進啊所以主委你有在臉書提到說吊車錯誤駕駛疏失行車安全疑慮哪一個是新問題都還是老問題那2024年之前一直跟我們講說以前叫做台鐵局所以有致愛難行之處有陳科沒有辦法去做這些管理那現在一年多了公司化 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2713.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2714.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主委 您自己感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2717.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2743.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
公司化之後有比較有改善的空間嗎因為從這個機關變成公司公司有董事會那董事會有各界的這個等於是外部董事也都有所以它進目前就逐步建立公司經營應該有的這個制度啦那因為是台北已經一年多了耶因為它這個不是一個新公司耶機關已經很久很久了主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2745.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2767.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們這樣子請教我比較實在話講因為我不希望跌床架屋公務員最怕做什麼事情開一個會確定下一個時間什麼時候再開會那我們現在講是說你願意跳下來比照檔案匯報檢討安全你講說安全跟準點是台鐵最基本的要求我認同但是有沒有辦法做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2768.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2796.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
今天在每個月開一次的道安會報以工程會主委與政委的身份來開再把台鐵公司的人再找來那會不會跌床架屋有內部的管理有外部的管理再來工程會結果問題還是一樣因為我是受命負責台鐵的安全督導啦所以它本來就是一個專案所以主委一年多的台鐵公司化安全你滿意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2799.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2825.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
已經比過去的一些經常重大事故是有進步但是你滿意嗎但我們當然還不滿意還不滿意所以才會希望每個月檢討事故的原因希望每個月檢討事故所以我們要逐步的一件一件然後這次是月台這次是平交道每一次事故都一定有原因嘛那每個原因解決了之後我們希望透過這個方式讓公司上下都重視這個事故 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2827.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2844.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
的改善是非常重要的主委利益良善啦那但是我想請教什麼時候要代理主代理董事長要徵處還是說什麼時候可以有一個台鐵新的董事長這個不是我的不是你的決定可是你會不會覺得說在治理組織來講這很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2847.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2865.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
杜威前董事長3月20號離職他申請退休那到現在三個月快三個月過去了還是代理董事長那如果說你要一個組織能夠真真正正從上到下把剛剛講的這些小細節其實這有些時候是螺絲酸不酸得緊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2866.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2893.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那螺絲栓緊 最直接的即便你是工程會主委 即便你是政務委員 官大 學問大但是公務體系也常常有一句話 怕管不怕關啊你每個月可以跟他們開一次會 可是如果說他連董事長都是代理的就代表是說這個組織裡面沒有真真正正要負責的人啊或是說沒有人在那24小時都在想怎麼樣把安全給做好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2894.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2918.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那是不是應該要建議是說該派人來專業任命該派就要派而不是說用代理的方式主委你怎麼看目前武次長代理董事長他本身也是鐵道局出身是沒有錯是相當專業所以我理解啊台鐵的整個制度啊管理啊機械等等但是代理他就變成說他又有交通部次長的業務他又有台鐵的業務那孰輕孰重 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2920.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2928.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
他本來次長就要督導鐵道局如果真的這樣的話 那這樣交通部長或是次長大家都代理就好啦不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2930.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2959.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個我們會尊重委員的意見啦不過畢竟還是部長的權責該建議要建議啦我覺得這個是釜底抽薪我今天沒有幫任何人講話我今天講的是一個制度面就是說組織裡面如果說你今天用代理代理久了他的權責當然難免就會不相符是吧我想這個部長會會綜合各種情況來 主委那我另外請教喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2960.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2981.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們還是要看你之後台鐵的一個安全本期還是期待是以安全專業準點為出發點好不好來那現在我們本院委員有踢爆說全台僅用的防彈背心有瑕疵相關得標廠商三度被列採購黑名單但是廠商在停權期間還是可以用其他公司名義繼續投標 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2982.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3007.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那我們之前其實也有討論過就希望是說能夠增訂所謂的黑名單三政條款因為最主要現在漏洞在於是管公司不管負責人是不是我目前在修法中我是不是請陳副主委來跟簡單說明一下因為這個是國人很關鍵不管是之前的太魯閣號事件還是說現在的這個防彈背心連防彈背心都可以有瑕疵我們要怎麼樣保障我們的警校弟兄 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3009.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3037.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
來包委員齁那個最近我們在跟各界在檢討整個停權的一個制度啦那我們當然有各種各種的意見啦有的認為這個管得太鬆有的認為管得太嚴那原則上我們會往一個比較寬鬆之間一個中間的那有關要還有更多網友要不要去看網友還有很多網路在討論是說有沒有管啊你說管得太鬆又管得太嚴還有人問說到底有沒有在管 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3038.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3055.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
現在確實是有各種意見我們會往 剛剛我也提到就是說他可能會同一個負責人他好幾家公司可能我們會這個部分會做一個處理但是如果說這個也納進來因為他公司畢竟是一個法人他不是自然人他可能經營的階層會改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3057.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3081.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那如果說要納入這個三政的條款那麼又把他這個負責所有的這個單人負責的其他廠商都納進來那麼我們是有聽到有一些比較餘力的認為這個會不會太過的擴及了所以這部分我們還在整合各界的意見可以依 不管是依情節輕重或者是依相關的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3083.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3100.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
狀況來去做調整嗎實在話講情節輕重你如果說連這個僅用防彈背心都可以造假都可以有瑕疵都可以說採驗收完畢之後都還可以不符合相關標準還是像如同之前太魯閣號事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3103.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3126.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
泰伍克豪事件這樣的一個狀況 跟我們報告就是說環境配件這個確實讓我們注意到他其實是因為停權那他這個採購他沒有搭配最有利標他是用最低標啦所以現在我們的指導的一個原則希望都能夠採用最有利標那就會把他這個之前的時機納進來那況且我們現在有成立一個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3127.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3156.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是說這一些有採購防彈變心的機關那麼如果有發現這個廠商旅業有問題那麼會通報這個平台我們透過這個平台去篩選廠商你現在講這些制度是不是都已經已經在做了那為什麼還會弊案窮出不窮的發生那就代表是說這樣的一個制度沒有辦法防避這樣的弊案來 主委我再簡單確認兩個不婚啦主委我第一話說如果連 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3157.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3179.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
負責人你要鎖定負責人都很有可能上有政策下有對策他找人頭來開公司也可能規避但如果說你連負責人都沒有辦法去做一個警示都沒有辦法去做一個限制的話那真的一個負責人看ABCDE五家公司A公司被你停權了我B公司C公司再來投標一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3182.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3192.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
劣跡斑斑的負責人 劣跡斑斑的公司一而再三的有辦法得到我們政府的採購標案國人作何感想 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3193.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3212.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
工程會身為中央主管機關做何感想所以我們在進行政府採購法的修訂我想近期內就會報什麼時候會報出來6月6月至7月中整是會報行政院我們會報行政院來審有辦法下個會期能夠進來到立法院我們來去做修法討論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3213.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3220.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
原則上可以 下個會期可以 這個會期恐怕會比較難這個會期雖然現在延長到7月31嘛 但也有可能比較難好 我們就遵照委員的意見 下個會期送到大院來審議那針對所謂的三政條款這邊 你們會有加嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3234.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3254.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
會有一些方式來排除那個惡劣的這個廠商用換負責人的方式開新公司的方式來得標那剛才副主委解釋的他這個個人或者是說相關公司過去的這個劣跡他會作為將來評審 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3256.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3275.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
的扣分的方式之一啦我們會想盡辦法來防度啦這個是修法的最主要的重點之一劣跡如果真的情節重大是連投標資格都不應該有是應該停權三年五年甚至這個投標資格都不應該有機關他採購的條件他可以所以這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3278.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3307.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
都應該要放進去我們會對機關有相關的一些的指引我們會有這個指引然後機關可以根據這個指引他們去參考然後作為他遭傷的條件之一謝謝主委 謝謝副主委本席也會提出本席的修法版本我們期待下個會期我們共同討論真的把相關的漏洞能夠補起來不要讓國人認為是說什麼黑心廠商有辦法一而再再而三投標 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3308.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3315.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這是任何機關 不管立法部門 行政部門 都不應該被看到的事情好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝我們請林國成召來 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3334.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3358.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
好 謝謝主席 我要請陳金德主委請主委委員早好 主委早我想當然啦 還沒有執行以前啦我特別提一個良心話啦我今天看到報紙也就是宜蘭險情 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3360.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3384.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
在我的看法因為我把你當成除了是一個監督單位主管之外我是把你當成好朋友所以我是覺得這樣報紙看完以後一喜則一憂一喜就是我們敬重的陳主委在整個宜蘭險情方面少一個勁敵那一憂就覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3389.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3390.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3391.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3418.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
民進黨的過去的官員都是這樣這個就是意義有的但是我還是要勉勵陳主委從你在工程會跟過去的表現我對你是有信心啦那所以雖然這跟今天主題無關但是多少是跟感情有關所以我還要祈勉你再接再厲但是千萬千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3420.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3445.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
當一天和尚敲一天鐘我也相信你兩位副主委是很強但是不要忘了你現在就是政務委員你現在就是工程會的主任委員因為一向我對工程會期待很高的我對工程會的寄望我是希望的我到處從當立委以後我都替你們叫屈 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3446.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3463.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
也就是在你們組織法過程當中我都替你們伸冤為什麼因為公共工程太多了陳天德跟工程會不能缺少的所以基本上我是蠻支持工程會的所以但是我還要祈勉陳主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3466.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3476.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
雖然機會真大但是不要忘了當一天和尚敲一天鐘工程會的事該做的一定要做我想主委你同意我這種說法吧謝謝委員的勉勵不過就我個人的生涯規劃我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3487.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3515.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
準備在工程會做滿四年好啦好啦這個反正光化跟真心話這個我會不會去計較啦但是我還是要其免當然因為我對你的行事風格跟做事情的這些貫徹我還是蠻期待的主委所以工程會該做的還是要做好那我現在還是回歸主題啦也就是碳排這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3517.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3541.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
看牌這個問題當然啦主管機關是環境部但是我們是工程單位的一個制定合約一個機關可是現在民主社會合約是非常重要所以我為什麼一開始非常支持你們單位就是這樣有統一的規劃合約總比 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3544.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3559.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
沒有好啦好 沒有好你知道為什麼過去公共工程在整個合約部分會有一點雜亂可是經過你們啊把它統合以外現在已經把雜亂縮短到 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3562.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3581.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
極端的少了所以我還是期待啦就是碳排這個問題我們要位以籌謀可是現在啊這個網路雖有啊但是內容空洞就會變成了文池館的意味所以主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3582.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3596.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我是要拜託你碳排未來是一個歧視所以在整個網路的這些你要開始未以籌謀先有一個規劃那我相信在整個廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3597.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3624.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
未來他在整個登錄方面他會有習慣性所以我建議現在應該要有假設性的這些操作不要說白在那裡不要說未來事情發生的你才來做這個事所以我還是期許工程會是主管整個合約裡面的主要的規範單位所以我還是希望針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3626.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3641.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
碳排的問題要稍微磨練那個演練一下以後大家會駕輕就熟所以主委你針對本席對於這些的建言你的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3642.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3663.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
建議委員這個意見非常好那我們陸續在建制的相關的包括碳排氣數的建立或者是範本等等我們會要求我們處裡面來根據委員的建立來試操作就一段時間試著操作才能夠發現哪些操作是 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3665.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3675.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
比較順的有些操作是不可行的所以我們就用模擬的方式去做這種操作那未來廠商你們規劃出來一我們單位會鎖洗二 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3680.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3700.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這些廠商會更熟悉如果是做到這樣就不會以現在情況我們只有設有這些網路設有這些機制但是你現在沒有啊所以它無法無法去做到盡善盡美這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3700.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3726.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以雖然啊因為你們已經有做這些網路已經在準備運作但是我認為啊效果是不髒的因為沒有演練就不會有熟悉所以我也希望啊這個理副主委應該要因為主委會比較忙這個你要去專責啊去做這些演練你看一回聲二回首你之後擺在那邊等到事情發生了以後再來做我認為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3729.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3757.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
嚴目求疑所以這些東西啊就會變成你們不熟悉然後廠商也不熟悉所以這個部分我是蠻建議主委督促之下副主委要去把它執行好那另外一個就是這些資訊公開真的要很重要啦好不好所以主委這是我我還蠻期待的好那接下來我還是特別啊要跟主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3758.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3762.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
談一些我非常重視的這些勞務的這些採購的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3767.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3790.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我非常重視不管是公安也好不管是勞工他的權利也好甚至於說我一直每一次執行我都擔心你在這裡忘記所以我不斷的提醒也就是勞工薪資的部分不能沒有勞工的權益也不能剝奪這是我希望你們在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3792.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3813.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
規範裡面要把它寫得清清楚楚也就是不以違反勞工有關權利跟薪資基金的問題如果是這樣你們要用最嚴厲的方式不管是這些計分啊或者不准投標啊這等等東西廠商沒有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3814.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3832.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
不怕花錢但是怕的就是他不能去招標所以這點你要抓住廠商的弱點所以你要招標我也不要刻意去找你麻煩但是最起碼的話你一定廠商最怕的就是喪失招標資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3834.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3842.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
上司燒他這個 所以這點我要建議主委就像現在 今天這個北捷欸 人家在抗議欸 來 下張圖片你看 對不對他們為什麼這樣 因為他的權力剝奪啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3849.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3877.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
但是我們只有去歸換一部分但是他的權益我們沒有放下去所以主委因為我每一次你可以去發現我對你的建言就是勞工的部分公安的部分權力的部分薪資的部分我非常重視所以像北捷這個問題我不曉得主委你看過以後你有因為我要強調就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3879.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3898.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
他們特休只要做他們的工程不能特休這個就剝奪他的權利啊所以主委你看完這些他們的抗議你有什麼感想那想在工程會在這裡同不同意把這些也列入進去我也知道陳副主委跟你都有氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3899.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3910.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
委員建議的各項你們在六月份以前都會提到行政院去那我也希望這個部分也把它納進去所以主委你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3911.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3932.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個是採購單位並沒有依照工程會2019年修正的勞務採購企業範本的規定來納入我們目前修正了政務採購法會將類似的企業範本修正成剛性的企業範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3933.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3949.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那剛性的企業換本之後各採購機關他就必須遵行工程會的企業換本我們會在企業換本裡面要求各比方說這個相關的勞務在勞務採購裡面的所有人他必須心思要 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3951.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3967.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
最低薪的1.1倍以上甚至更高的時候我們有利於他將來在進行其他標範採購的時候會有加分的機制這個也是一種社會企業責任有鼓勵有懲罰那我們會修正成剛性的企業範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3968.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3995.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這樣的話對勞工才會有所幫助啦就像他現在其他他薪水他都有公安他都有重視但是勞工的權利他就負累啦因為我們沒有寫清楚所以要拜託城府主委在這個部分因為你們都寫法律的你們都比我們還懂但是我們發現問題提供給你我相信你們也會把他納進去這樣的話也就是統一換本他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3996.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4011.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
無法去逃避啦所以這樣的話我認為對於整個勞工對於合約的完整性會更圓滿更完整這樣好不好好所以拜託陳主委拜託陳副主委一下好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請李坤澤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4029.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4033.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好 謝謝許智傑召委請一下陳主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4039.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4067.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主委好我想主委也很清楚我國是被資安攻擊的一個中心是全球最嚴重的一個地方那相關的不管是資料被竊取或是被資安的這樣的一個入侵攻擊其實是持續的一個增加那對於公共採購來說相關的資安保護也逐漸的成為一個重要的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4068.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4083.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那我們來看2024年書發佈其實它有一個國家自通安全的情勢報告那我們面臨治安的威脅統計不管是民間或是政府機關在資訊的收集部分是43.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4085.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4100.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
資訊的收集主要是他們是用掃描或者是探測或者是偽造公務信件來竊取相關的政府的資訊那另外入侵攻擊跟入侵的嘗試是高達36%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4102.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4124.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那這樣的一個入侵攻擊或者是入侵的嘗試主要它是針對系統進行這種入侵或者是攻擊來竊取獲得非法的一個資訊或者是破壞或者是竊取等等他們取得這種非法的權限來做這一些相關的資訊的獲得等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4125.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4144.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那我看政府部門的運作或是機密資料的保存或是民間的人民各自的保護這都是重要的議題那我們政府部門我一直認為公共採購必須加強相關的資安保護那工程會在這方面有什麼作為嗎 來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4146.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4173.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
包委員那關於治安的部分工程會跟速發部有合作訂定一個各類資訊服務採購之共通性資通安全基本要求參考一覽表那這個在112年9月25日已經公佈來協助機關落實採購治安那接著呢我們會把這個一覽表納為採購企業換本那納入採購企業換本之後可以來指引機關作為採購治安工作避免發生漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4174.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4191.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這在2023年的時候其實我就有要求工程會要有相關的改善的作為剛才主委也有簡單的說明相關的進度及狀況那設計新的契約換本那進一步才能解決這種複雜的溝通問題那這個機制的部分請主委簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4198.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4227.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
剛才也有說明就是將來我們希望這個企業換本是剛性的那過去企業換本是機關是作為原則參考那這個剛性換本之後呢我們就速發部訂定的這個一覽表會納入這個企業換本裡面所以將來政府採購法修正通過之後所有機關採購都必須遵行這樣的一覽表來做防止資安的問題這也是我對工程會的相關的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4228.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4254.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
第一個就是我們要研擬這種敏捷式的開發合約的範本這也就是說軟體開發中常見的一種合約的形式就是要確保合約它在固定的時間固定的成本之下來進行但是保有工作範圍的靈活跟彈性那長期來說我認為工程會要跟數位部來合作就是針對採購人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4256.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4282.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
他的資安專業跟技能要來進行培訓那尤其是地方政府部分尤其是偏鄉地區這種資安的專職專業人員非常的少因為你都知道偏鄉常常一個公務員要負責好幾項的業務資安的這種保護對他們來說變成他們認為是比較不重要的一環這個應該要加強培訓跟宣導了 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4283.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4311.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那另外的部分我們還是來討論一下職災的部分那我國製造業勞動環境保障是普遍不足這過去我在交通委員會一再質詢公共工程委員會必須針對公共工程相關的職災必須要樹立保障勞工的一個典範那我們看到重大職業災害之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4312.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4319.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
製造業始終是佔多數而且是持續的上升那2017年有43.5那2024年升到51.7那其實勞動部有統計各國營造業最弱致死的比例2022年 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4331.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4348.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
台灣是將近七成 67.3 韓國53英國45 日本41 新加坡28那其實在2018年的時候 新加坡也有將近50%但是他們努力去規範 現在已經下降到28.6那 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4352.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4377.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們台灣這麼多年都一直在60% 70%的這種墜落致死的這樣的一個比例這個是偏高 對勞工的保障實在是不足那我現在要請教主委說我們營造業普遍的存在這種勞動環境安全的保障不足的情況這個部分主委說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4378.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4405.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
委員如果是職業安全的部分那目的社會主管機關他們會經常性的去查核那工程會會針對公共工程在查核的時候職業安全作為環境也是列為重要的查核的項目之一那麼除此之外如果說這個公共工程在過程中有發生嚴重的職安的事故比方說致死那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4407.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4431.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
部分那如果是這個採購機關他如果說曾經得到金職獎那有可能連金職獎都要收回那甚至呢他將來在採購另外一個案的時候在評分裡面這個列為嚴重扣分所以以此來督導這公共工程這相關的作為我也清楚了公共工程委員會針對勞工職災因為是公共工程這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4432.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4449.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
有在努力但是我要不客氣的跟你說真的是沒有明顯的改善我們來看2020年植栽的件數32件死亡35人受傷4人那工程集合中發現缺失招扣點的232件 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4451.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4478.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那到2024年 植栽的件數也沒有減少 也是32件死亡32人 受傷2人 沒有明顯的改善公共查核中發現缺失 遭到扣點有171件沒有明顯改善 主委我必須要明確提醒你那我們營造業這種勞動環境的保障普遍不足其實我們要考量公共工程的類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4479.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4491.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
就是說他多數都是交通建設環境或是各種管線的這種進行他相關的建設那這是重大職災之中啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4492.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4519.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
最具危險性的這種營建類型那工程會的任務當然是要建立合乎法規作為表率保護勞工的安全那其實我認為公共工程委員會應該針對這種公共工程死傷以及職災沒有明顯改善的這個問題未來是要如何進行改善你剛才有說初步的作為但是沒有明顯改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4520.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4535.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
能有更強而有力的一個政策的推動那尤其是在安全設施不足的狀況之下這種翻滾跌落的死傷啊有沒有具體的方案跟勞動部來研擬這個請簡單說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4537.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4539.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以我們都非常明確啦 主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4565.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4590.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們看看香港2022或20242020到2024沒有明顯改善這個我們去跟社會大眾來說明說我們有相關的作為這是毫無說服力的因為沒有成績因為這種改善的成績沒有表現出來那對勞工的安全你也知道勞工是每一個家庭最重要的一個經濟的靠山 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4591.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4609.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這個部分主委必須強力的督促公共工程委員會針對公共工程勞工的職業安全環境的安全基本保障必須要強加的監督跟落實這個以後我會再跟陳主委來進行相關的一個討論好我們來改善謝謝我們現在請林俊憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4628.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4635.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
好 感謝主席本席邀請我們工程會陳金德陳主委請主委委員長主委好主委你剛有提到啊就是因為北捷這個特修小偷的事件啊你剛有說到那工程會要對於所頒布的採購契約範本啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4655.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4682.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
要把它調為剛性讓採購機關執行的採購機關能夠遵循是不是應該這樣子這要修正政府採購法明定這個契約範本是機關必須遵循第一個 其實由這個個案但實際上它是普遍存在這種狀況就我們工程會頒布的採購契約範本那實際上執行採購的單位很多都沒有依照這個來 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4683.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4699.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
甚至有很多是違反了這種採購報告就影響到勞權影響到勞工的權益這案件非常多其實北捷的案件2018年早在2018年監察院就提出了調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4700.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4711.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
說北捷啊他利用他集團下面的公司輪流承攬這種清潔的標案但是勞工如果留任那他的年資兩年一標換個公司換個老闆年資歸零這種狀況2018年 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4717.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4730.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
監察院就提出報告然後呢我們再來看看一直拖拖拖拖到最近啊爆發出來了那北捷才承認然後他要回歸到我們政府所頒布的勞動這種契約的一個範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4733.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4748.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那過去啦就是說你北捷沒有依照工程會所訂的勞務採購契約範本啦那這個狀況其實所在都有啦那通常都是由各採購單位他自己有一個所謂的採購機油小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4750.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4765.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
在集合他的各項採購有沒有合法啦有沒有違反人權啊違反勞權等等那實際上因為這種集合小組都是機關就採購單位自己組的啦球員兼裁判啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4768.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4791.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你工程會是有你工程會的 但是他本身也有一個集合小組嘛他不可能去抓自己的啦 我覺得那個都虛設的啦你同意自己的集合小組很少會抓到自己的一個狀況啦否則你看北捷這個2018年存在到現在 抓不出來所以我們政府呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4793.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4819.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
你剛提到要把它轉為剛性啦應該是按照採購法第63條啦各類的採購契約應該以採用主管機關訂定的範本為原則對 你訂的是原則嘛所以它很多它就不遵守啊所以基本上它並沒有一個強制力啦那實際上啦這一點啦 你轉為剛性啦主委你是有道理的啦因為我們採用一個法院判決的範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4821.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4848.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
法院的一個民事裁決範本它就明定啦機關你要有正當的合理性還有一個理由以及必要性你才可以例外的不採用契約範本實際上法院已經做出有利於你工程會就像主委你剛講的你要轉回剛性的過去就有這樣的一個判例了換言之也有說啦你一國機關喔你若沒有提出正當的理由跟必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4849.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4867.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
李毅平要按照主管機關 就是我們工程會頒布的契約範本所以你說要把它調整 現在也來得及啦我認為這種狀況 不會只有北捷一個個案應該是存在很多有這種狀況的 主委您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4868.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4886.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
因為不只是這個案例其他相關的這個採購跟採購對象之間是否有公平或要求這個得票廠商多做其他事情的要求等等存在很多很多個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4889.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4915.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
不適合這個採購的這些樣態都會透過我們將來修訂這種採購的這個企業換本改為剛性之後呢那希望所有機關就遵循工程會頒布的企業換本來做這個採購的行為就是除非你有事先提出特別的理由以及必要性是有以外 否則就應該要按照我們的企業換本是不是這個意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4920.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4942.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們目前修正的方向就如委員剛剛的指示但是我們當然會例外因為有些特殊的採購確實嘛所以原則上我們要求他要報到上級機關來核准他才能例外不採用好 謝謝主委另外我們最近在討論那個祭司法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4944.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4971.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
為什麼要提祭司法修正草案呢我們來看一下 最近幾年各類的祭司被移送懲戒的人數統計大概有50件後來有做出懲戒處分的大概有30個人受懲戒處分的比例是60%左右實際上大概移送案件有4成都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4972.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4998.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
等於說都沒有達成懲戒的必要那為什麼會有那麼多的懲戒案件呢我認為我們祭司法有一個必須要修正的地方就是現在是由利害關係人他可以引用法條尤其是第19條他只要有那些行為他就可以直接把祭司給移送了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5000.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5020.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那其中啊 我看案件最多的都是鑑定的技術版鑑定喔 這可能是有時候一般普遍的業務啦那你辦鑑定一定會有一個 兩個對照嘛或者是說 我業壓關係量 我覺得你的鑑定對我不利他如果不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5021.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5046.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
他如果就可以引用這個計時法裡面的條文就把你給移送懲戒所以造成你看最後符合懲戒的比例其實六成其實很低啦表示有四成案件是根本不需要的那我們現在應該要在移送懲戒就關係人就是說你即使在被移送懲戒之前應該要有一個初步篩檢的一個機制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5048.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5056.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所謂的出塞的機制那到底這個祭司有沒有違反相關法律規定才必要達到移送懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5058.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5081.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那這個修法方向主委你要幹嘛因為非常正確那我們目前修法方向是說希望透過主管機關縣市或這個直轄市主管機關或者是他那個工會工會如果來審核之後由工會來移送那這樣會篩掉很多是利害關係人之間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5083.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5096.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
糾紛然後利用這個提起懲戒來做這個必要的要求所以我們目前會這個祭司法是朝這個方向來修正那如果主委認同的話那為什麼我們工程會沒有自己的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5097.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5116.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
行政沒有院本送出來因為是5月24號才送到行政院那這個版本大概大概是兩年前就有提到上一屆就有提到那因為屆期不連續所以現在這個我們這一屆的立法院現在也有很多立委在關心這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5117.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5141.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那我覺得應該要有願本我們5月20日送到行政會竣訴不過我們相對跟委員提案的條文內容大同小異所以我們今天有提出工程會的主張那稍微有修正部分委員的提案那方向都是一致的好那我們應該就往這個方向來努力好不好好 謝謝主委好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5147.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5172.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好謝謝我們現在請魯明哲委員謝謝主席有請我們工程會陳主委請主委陳主委早好首先請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5175.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5202.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
這其實三令五申啦尤其在你採購法裡面就規定我們這個不管是公家的一個採購尤其這樣的機敏的一些產品根本不能用中國大陸的一些相關的一些產品但是事實上三不五時就聽到而且有時候弄很久才搞清楚那我覺得這算最嚴重的所以我舉這個例子就是說同樣的一個監視系統放在比如說你這放在家裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5203.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5231.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
監管幼稚園看孩童的安全你也可以講在風景區看看我們人流的進出我覺得那個都不是最嚴重你就直接裝到軍方下面聯合報這邊寫在軍方954部這個也是前一陣子的才出來的一個新聞那我也說真的有些東西不知道裝到營區裝到一些機敏的一些單位不知道已經好一陣子了可是我在想這到底出了什麼樣一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5233.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5260.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
然後再來譬如說像降德的一個企業未來在採購法裡面會怎麼處理你先講第二個好不好那這個事情已經發生了那我們也看到了這家公司呢從109年總共標公共工程64個標案這是我們在工程會的一個網站查到的公共工程我不知道你們查的如何啦那我覺得在軍方這種最嚴重的一個樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5262.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5286.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
罪重的樣態發生了現在還未來現在還在還是繼續可以招標嗎是什麼情況說明一下跟委員說明委員好我們統計的是還包括他的子公司所以我們這邊統計出來的這10年大概總共有71件那韓國的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5291.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5313.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個採購的機關大概有30幾個機關那目前我們是請通行請所有的機關全面去徹查那這個因為他這個要不要停權要不要沒收押標金要不要這個取消他的得標資格這都必須有廠商有機關他來決定那我們會給他一些指導的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5314.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5319.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那因為它有一些是屬於比較是隱匿性的那我們也會請他可能必要的時候要拆開來檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5322.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5344.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
因為我現在看到很多的案子因為我今天沒有提包括中科院 因為它行政法人不見得跟你採購法有最直接的相關可是更機敏的採購法管不到所以現在很多奇奇怪怪的事情持續的發生而且同樣的人或同樣的一個集團同樣的模式不斷在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5345.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5365.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以這個部分對於我們公務工程明文規定後面又發現我們原本規定不行的樣態持續的不斷的發生啦是大剌剌的等於無所謂的這種大量的在那邊弄那我就覺得這個的部分如果你沒有立竿見影啊他可能在這一兩年沒事嘛繼續招標 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5367.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5395.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以這個部分我是希望能夠要快好不好 由於軍方這件事應該相關的證據力夠那如果這樣子說真的就是都沒有什麼事會有一個學習效應學習效應沒問題啊 怕什麼先弄進來再說我覺得這個你們去思考那我必須要提醒現在看到很多一些問題我是覺得驗收者的能力在目前這些電子產品 高科技產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5397.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5416.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
出現了很大的弱勢就是說我們是工人員考上工人員我有這樣的執照我有這種身分所以我也通過採購法所以我就會看得懂這些電子產品嘛完全不相關所以我們在招標的時候有很多專家協助介入幫我們希望來評選這些廠商的一個能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5418.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5440.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
但是我們在驗收的時候經常就是承辦業管單位那些人在獨立面對我覺得這個部分是給你們做一個思考像這樣的一個產品如果不斷的去做的話那這些針對的問題的可以去處理的這些專家業者怎麼樣去來協助這個政府的一個機構你們有沒有想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5443.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5468.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這個當然機關它本身的判別能力要有嘛那我們會希望說機關這做採購評審的時候那就針對工程會本身已有的專家學者部分來做挑選不過既然是軍方的這些機敏的設備一而再再而三的採購大陸的相關的產品我想這個機關本身要檢討是否有涉及國安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5470.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5486.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
或別是他不見得是不清楚有的是清楚的採購那這部分這個相關機關除了採購法之外有沒有涉及其他國安問題我想可以請機關一併調查好主委啊因為你也是政委啦我覺得可以去協調一些事情啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5487.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5511.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我覺得很多事情採購法現在的規定反正也已經在市場上實驗這麼久了我覺得該管的尤其有些機敏的機構機敏的功能那就當然要最嚴啦但我覺得你分類分級是一定要的因為你會另外一方面會管到那很無聊的我跟你講那個上次大概幾個月前我看待在某某處的火災救災救災的一個情況那是消防員那個志工旁邊那個很生氣的在那邊留言 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5518.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5544.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
採購吧消防隊大飛機無人機不敢飛下雨不能飛狀況不行不能飛很貴幾十萬因為我們只能買這個大家組一組就弄怕飛上去淋到雨會壞那後面怎麼弄結果這些不要講誰啦後面他沒辦法要飛進去那個大工廠他就弄了一台你們禁止的DJI小型的為什麼燒掉兩萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5547.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5563.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
燒掉大概兩三萬他就飛進去拍好了消防隊就用得很好所以他很深情在那邊所以我在想這些救災的像有一些山區救難有些這個部分你政府機構在做的但你這次規定讓他覺得弄得非常辛苦他花了30萬 50萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5565.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5583.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
他買的飛機 下一天要救災不能用我覺得這個的部分我們希望你能夠找真的去把它能不能分級分類沒有機敏的這個的部分我覺得應該要適度救災救難民生的這個部分你要適度的考量 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5584.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5610.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
對於所有的無人載具那政府部門採購的無人機無人艇之類的我們現在已經請行政院的財政部跟主計總處修改相關的財產規定這個不能視為是財產而是一種消耗品所以各機關有了這些無人機之後他才能夠放心的去使用否則會不小心摔掉或者是說在那個財產 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5611.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5625.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
期限內損耗的話那當事人也擔心是不是要負相關的責任所以目前我們是請主總跟財政部再修改相關的財產管理的規定好 這個主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5626.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5641.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這個我是覺得因為我們有時候你們也是呕心瀝血了在想辦法去防範但你要知道我們現在看到了很多的這個少數少數的一些業者他也是呕心瀝血在繞道規避 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5646.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5660.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
在隱藏那怎麼樣用這樣剛剛講很多的方式去做處理那我再講一個就是營造業缺供的問題我是覺得這次從108年開始 事實上在疫情之前就已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5661.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5683.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這整體營造業這是從國土署的資料所以包括了公家的工程私人工程都有但整體營造業缺工的一個情況疫情這邊是爆量爆量那到112年統計了適當到比108年就恢復到還是缺工的一個情況依舊那我們特別看一下我這邊這個來做結論在112年當這個缺工情況總共營造業缺工了52000多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5691.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5719.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那其中承攬政府工程的承攬政府工程的國土組織的資料大概佔百分之一半百分之五十兩萬六千多人是做政府工程的那你再看下面的表格呢那這些承攬政府工程兩萬六千人的缺工呢缺工那先看普通工我們只看合計就好了普通工四千多人技術性的勞工就要技術性的大概佔百分之六十 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5722.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5744.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
60.8%大概一萬將近一萬六千人其他工地主任稍微管理階級的話大概五千八百人所以我希望你們不管是在國內補足這些勞工的能力人力或者從國外移工因為已經談了好久了不知道最具體的落實的策略是什麼但是我是覺得有個很重要的不是來這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5746.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5763.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
然後都在補普通工啊就我要抱歉我都不太會我要焊接我要把我都不太會所以這技術性的一個勞工是一個最大的基層的一個缺口未來不管是在討論外國的移工要來支援那在外國如何去培訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5765.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5782.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
或者還要在國內怎麼樣去培訓那這要到納入思考那國內的很多的培訓的一個機制這些培訓出來的人到底有沒有到這些的位置上針對去工作我倒是覺得給你一個政策上面的思考好不好那你做個結論你來說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5783.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5806.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
的確是公共工程缺工嚴重那如果是針對公共工程如果說特定的需求那工程會會專案那麼來協調勞動部准許他引進移工我們現在有的引進的移工在國內還會受訓在台灣甚至電焊已經交到可以考取檢定的執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5806.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5830.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那這部分很多企業事實上有在進行不過移工有時候他移動性快就是說他學會執照之後也許會跳或者是被這個聘走了所以目前是有這樣的機制針對公共工程的專案引進那我也知道有些業者他直接就訓練開班訓練訓練甚至指導他去考取檢定考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5833.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5854.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
好 我這樣講的是因為缺工的一個議題壓力對產業界是非常非常大的其實這是公共工程私人的部分也是非常非常大所以其實真的有時候是蠻慘的我們也聽說了很多具有規模品牌的公司很多也被逼著你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5854.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5879.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
大家想要申請合法的移工嘛或者引進國內這個優先嘛可是就是真的沒有辦法所以呢想要這個合法的移工跟合法的一個國內的專業勞工是求之不到啊沒辦法求到所以現在很多工地啊就是都在工地一進去都是那種違法的一個陰影在那邊不然怎麼辦反正不是這個這條違法不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5881.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5899.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
移工的違法就是違約的違法 哪一條多 哪一條少所以我要拜託這個整體的一個營造業勞工的情況我也拜託啦 因為你這麼能不能多跟這個我們勞動部真的要多溝通一下好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5909.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5926.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
好 謝謝 我們請陳舒悅委員謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳主委請主委委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5934.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5940.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
主委早安那今天委員會是在討論這個祭司法第11條修正條文草案那我們知道現在營造業大缺工然後這個專業祭司一樣很難找因為最近本席跟這個營造業者就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5953.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5979.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
有陳情案在討論的時候他有反映說就是包括甲級以及丙級的營造廠都要有專任的工程人員就是專業的技師那在這邊在這方面的人才真的非常的難找那我們今天討論這個就是技師法第十一條條文的修正草案這個草案事實上從第九屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5980.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5995.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
第十屆都有委員提出那後來都沒有進行處理那因為屆期不連續所以現在第十一屆就是我們陳俊委員有在針對這一條來提出修正草案那本席也有連署那這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5996.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6017.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
的一個修正的精神當然就是說要落實那個聯合國身心障礙者權利公約消除歧視之精神當然這是一個主要的精神不過本席看起來應該還有另外一個就是重要的一個部分就是應該也是要保障這個專業技師的一個工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6019.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6041.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因為事實上剛剛林郡縣委員也有提到的就是說有關被移送懲處的就是說這個祭司的部分那也有可能就是說或許會因為利害關係或者是私人恩怨的部分可能被檢舉被移送那如果說他因為第11條第4款 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6043.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6052.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
被人家用這種理由主張要撤銷他的資格 即時資格的時候那他是不是沒有申訴的一個機會副主委跟你說明這個申訴的部分好 就是說如果用這個第四款是不是他如果說因為目前的現行條文這種狀況的話被人家檢舉然後是不是他就沒有一個申訴補救的機會報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6071.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6089.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
就是說這個是技師懲戒目前我們發現到跟其他專業人員比較不一樣的地方通常譬如說律師、建築師、會計師他的懲戒一定是由主管機關或者他的專業工會移送不會由一個利害關係的人來移送 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6090.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6113.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那麼依照目前祭司法的規定他一旦這個戀愛關係人他提出主張的話基本上就已經進入到懲戒他本身不能再進行疏遠了只能進行他有沒有懲戒是有那我們是覺得這樣對祭司不盡公平因為專業人士一旦被進入懲戒的程序不管最後懲戒的結果怎麼樣對他都已經是個傷害了 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6114.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6122.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以我們也是認同委員的提案說把這個利害關係人的這個他的一些訴求要經過主管機關或者專業的這個工會一個篩選以後移送權給這些主管機關跟專業單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6131.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6157.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
是所以我們就是說希望在目前就是專業技師也是培訓不易然後也這個人才是非常欠缺因為根據營造業他們的反應真的他們要去聘任一個這個專業技師真的也是非常的難找那剛剛當然有委員提到說可以從國外移工來補足可是就這部分應該我們沒有辦法從國外移工來補足吧就是說專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6159.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6178.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
包括土木水利測量或者是建築師這個不可能是從國外移工來補助要國內的證照對啊所以這部分是因為這是有一個層次等級的不同可能這是一般的技術性的比如說工地的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6179.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6197.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
主任就是比較可能是屬於比較管理階層的或許可以可是這種專業性的相信還是沒有辦法所以這部分的話我們也希望就是說讓我們這個專業技師他們的工作權能夠得到就是比較妥善的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6199.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6227.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為專業技師是這個很熱門啦所以導致現在連公家機關相關的這個公務人員比方土木類啊報導力都很低對 因為有的甚至在公務機關服務個兩三年他就出去自己開業當建築師了所以就是機關裡面的土木相關人才相關的人也都非常缺少 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6227.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6251.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
是 那我們也希望就是說這部分我們工程會也有可以有其他的妥善的一個政策來對這個方面的一個人才能夠來增加這個人才的一個培訓這是另外一個問題有跟考試院在商量考試的方式還有是在比較偏遠地區能夠有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6253.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6268.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
專設的這個能夠讓有當地的這個能夠學習或培訓的機制目前我們都跟考試院目前也在商量相關的做法是好謝謝那接下來我要再關心一個議題就是有關就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6270.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6286.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
資安的問題就是我們在應該是兩三個禮拜前本委員會也是針對資通安全管理法修正草案在討論就是有關這個資通安全產品的問題的時候那這個資通安全管理法第十一條就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6287.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6316.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
內容就是說公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時在討論這個條文的時候有委員主張說要把採購列進去就是說公務機關不得採購下載安裝或使用危害國家資通安全產品那當時我們在討論的時候速發部那個次長他就是他主張說這個採購應該要回到採購法不曉得那個主委你的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6319.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6335.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好這個有關這個資安的問題在採購上面目前是透過企業範本去規範那原則上面只要涉及到國安或機敏性的這些採購那原則上我們是一定禁止採用 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6336.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6360.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個入資的產品或品牌那甚至我們目前也針對這個有關一些AI譬如說那個DeepSeek我們也會要求廠商你在禮樂過程裡面你不能因為禮樂事項去使用這一些AI因為有可能會因此洩漏一些機敏的資訊所以目前原則上我們是透過採購範本去規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6363.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6373.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
採購飯本可是好像沒有辦法確實的去防範這樣子的一個治安的問題嘛因為中國的產品確實是存在著這個治安的疑慮這是很明確的嘛因為我們從過去很多他的產品不管是監視器啦或者是氣炸鍋或者是掃地機器人這個他們都可以植入後門所以這個是確實非常的嚴重那你包括剛剛農民者委員有關心的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6392.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6418.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
大陸監視器貼牌然後就可以流入中國就是流入我們的這個台灣所以對這種狀況我們應該真的要去想辦法要確實有能力去防止啦不然我覺得我們的這個資通這個國家的這個治安真的是門戶大開所以這部分就是說採購範本到底是不是能夠真正的去就是說落實這個資通安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6421.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6444.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
確實我們整個有關紅色供應鏈包括人物資本這個要一起來看那目前確實比較散落在各處那我們目前也內部在研議啊又就整個這個所謂防止紅色供應鏈進入政府採購的部分有一個比較系統性的一個法規劃的作業目前正在進行這樣的一個作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6445.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6465.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這跟我的想法不謀而合我正要這樣子詢問那既然就是你有提到那這部分的研議多久時間可以完成就是說你們針對這個紅色供應鏈不管是人物啊這個部分你們多久可以提出一個妥善的一個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6466.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6490.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
報委我們碰到比較困難的是有關資安的部分因為畢竟不是工程會的專業那主委是政委啊所以我們跟樹花部這邊要有一些溝通所以這部分的時間比較不容易如果是關我們自己的部分比較容易掌握那麼跟樹花部的這個協商的部分可能要有一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6491.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6511.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
是那是不是主委你是也是政委你應該要來讀出這個事情好那我們會來跟書發部或相關的部會啊那麼共同來研議啦那盡速把它完成這種剛才副主委所提的比較系統性的這個防度是好那盡速不曉得主委可是不是可以給個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6514.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6527.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
坦白講這個資訊這部分我也是外行那我不知道這個從我們跟數碼部開過一次會之後再跟委員報告好不好好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請許富奎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6551.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6580.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
謝謝主席,有請我們陳主委陳主委主委早主委我想今天我們交委會是審查祭祀法我想這個是一個落實對這個性障礙族群的一個尊重那我們會來支持不過今天還是有幾個我們實際面上的一些問題來請教一下主委主委,您看這個投影片上面主委不知道這是什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6587.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6609.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
主委我想今年恆春建成邁入150週年我們過去也一直積極跟文化部我們也積極爭取恆春古城的一個修復跟整建文化部今年也特別編了3億多的經費目前這個案子是送到我們工程會進行審查不曉得主委知道這個案子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6622.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6641.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
就是基本設計的審查是不是目前審查的進度好那目前的進度是還在計畫寫審就是他會送國外會之前會請各機關表示意見那工程會在寫審當中目前在進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6644.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6664.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
主委因為我過去我也跟著我們潘孟安縣長我們也在縣政府服務那我們都很關心這個恆春古城的一個整個整建的因為這是我們現在不像台灣保留最完整的一個古城牆我們也希望能夠做一個未來對一個觀光發展的一個整建之後對觀光發展有一個很正面的注意我想我們這個李一德副主委我們過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6665.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6682.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
在政府同時的時候我們一直在努力做這個事情那但是因為現在考量到整個工程的經費還有這個城牆有些緊鄰私人地的一些問題所以變成這個工程的確實有一些難度存在那所以文化部我們接觸到文化部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6683.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6709.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他們在規劃設計上有要採取一個分段發包的一個策略我個人是覺得這樣分段發包會讓整個恆春的這個市鎮的周邊會變成長期的一個工地化的一個現象或是反而會影響到交通跟一個混光的一個發展那主委這部分依你的尊嚴有沒有辦法協助做怎麼樣的一個規劃可以讓工程能夠一次到位一次來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6711.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6740.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這部分我們是請李德副主委來跟文化部來會商看用什麼方式既能夠完成這個修復然後也避免這個同時間周圍都在進行工地施工的狀況那李副主委在屏東待過嘛所以我請李德副主委來跟文化部來協商副主委那我們就找個時間我們約大家一起來討論一下好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6742.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6748.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因為古城的部分還有面臨一個問題就是我們很多身障的朋友以過去古城是有階梯的一個狀況要被撈出去這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6753.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6774.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
銜接的一個波度又很陡所以造成這個有些做輪椅的朋友他想要站在街上有一些困難點那如果針對這樣的一個行動不便的長者或是輪椅族的部分像這樣的一個設施部分主委能不能提供什麼樣的一個建議來做改善是歷史建築吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6775.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6779.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那我可能要尊重文化部的意見整個修復的設計整個都會有文化部的神意 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6787.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6808.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好 那我們也會來理解啦來跟文化部看看有沒有可能做這樣的設施那這樣設施會不會有沒有違反原來它國定普及的相關的規定文字法裡面有些是規定的因格對 所以就是因為有困難所以才要請主委用個想辦法看怎麼來協助啦好像請理事會一併納出這個對啦 讓我們的長者還是一些腎臟的朋友也能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6815.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6841.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
趁現在看到整個高雄的情形主委我想我們現在大家也都很關心美國關稅的風暴經濟部這邊有宣布我們要擴大公共建設的投資從200億到2500億的增加維持GDP佔比跟去年水準相同主委你目前知道我們有哪些部會進行擴大公共設施的規劃嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6846.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6873.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
經濟部的設施是不是公共建設目前目前預算今年114年的法定預算已經審議了那這個是在還沒有關稅充其之前編訂的經過大院來審議所以各部僅能針對114年度的法定預算那麼去做施作 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6875.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6903.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
並沒有特別的預算來增加擴大公共建設這件事情據我了解應該沒有沒有啦主委我想那我們還是要回歸到我們現在目前的整個公共工程跟營進業這個缺工缺料的一個問題啦那目前依據我們國土署發布的一個營進業的一個經濟概況目前缺工的人數高達五萬三千人那一年增加四千多將近四千三百人的人數在增加主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6904.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6931.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這沒有人,這工程是怎麼進行,尤其我們自己在,看到我們像過去我一直在請主委幫忙,尤其殯董關我們有偏鄉有離島,這個很多工程發包,經費要比其他的地方要更高,才會在這裡衝上來,那這個衝上來,他們也擔心工人找不到,這都很多的一個結構性的一些問題,那主委這邊有沒有什麼好的一個想法? |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6932.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6958.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
報告委員如果是公共工程的話有必要的話可以專案來協助那麼引進移工那另外呢工程會目前也跟考試院或其他大學在討論如何在偏鄉來協助培訓相關營建管理的人才跟大學合作落地取材 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6958.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6980.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
對這就是比方說設在屏東或是在花蓮我們現在目前是東部是很缺啦東部很缺所以我們就是特別要跟大學合作那麼來讓大學招生他有學分班但公共工程委員會也會針對我們原來的課程培訓也會加進去那麼希望就地取材讓就地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6980.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7003.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
居民他有這個一技之長然後投入當地的營建業或者相關的管理是我們目前在規劃這樣的事情是就陳儒剛剛我們有幾位委員特別提到包含過去我也接受過代替像我們現在很多我們的住在屏東高雄的鄉親因科企分發到東部或到北部調不回來是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7004.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7020.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們台鐵的招考東部跟北部招考都不順利因為我們的新制結構的問題那我過去有跟他們溝通說就像主委剛提的你應該就東部或北部在地的主體去增加怎麼樣一個誘因給他們可以科技留在那個地方做服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7021.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7040.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
讓我們這個大家都能夠有機會可以調回自己的家鄉來做好不然這因為這整個人力的結構調來調去都不是好就跟這個狀況一樣沒有在地就地取材的這個培訓這因為我們都面臨很多的問題包含剛剛講的縣政府的這個土木的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7041.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7063.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這少年給扣住了,過不幾年兩年,他有那個技師牌,他就自己處理開業了他不會想要留在公家機關啦我們也都很擔心這樣一個問題的產生啦所以主委我想這個是我們未來要一起再努力的一個方向那最後我想就是針對未來這個營建工程的物價指數的調整的部分那我想我們也擔心許多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7064.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7091.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
重大的公共建設的流標的情形越來越嚴重我想這個部分是不是請主委我們在兩個月之內針對這樣的一個缺工缺料的部分給本席一個報告好不好要怎麼來做改善好謝謝好謝謝等一下蔡其昌何欣淳許智傑質詢完休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7093.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7107.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好 現在我們請蔡奇昌副院長謝謝主席 請工程會陳主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7115.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7137.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
主委今天針對祭司法有幾個版本在進行相關的修法但這個本席對這個版本的內容我是沒有太大的意見要請教但是我對這個祭司法這個法令我就很有興趣來請教就教一下主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7138.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7157.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這個我們祭司法裡面規範的科別祭司的科別總共有32科主委這個你應該很清楚那我把它做了一個統計這個有一些科別我隨便舉個例子因為我的選區是海濱亞我們有一個漁撈業的祭司這個85旁邊農役121 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7168.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7196.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
主委這個85跟121是有這個科別以來到今天的數字還是一年的數字我請這個有這個法 請我們同仁來幫忙回答包委那是全部的數字好 所以副主委那你當副主委時間也不是很長所以你會不會覺得很奇怪我們祭司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7197.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7213.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個法規存在 然後要來考這32項類別裡面 有一些類別從有這個法 有這個祭司執照的法 有這個祭司法開始到今天只有85張 就發了85張的祭司嘛 對不對有些發100多張 紡織工程65張 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7221.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7225.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個冶金工程35這個更低那礦業安全32請問一下這個像這些數量極低從開始到現在都連100張都達不到的他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7237.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7254.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這個行業根本不需要這個專業執照還是說根本很難考所以沒有人考得上他到底有沒有檢討過這個原因是什麼這個整個企業環境在改變啦然後所有的企業的內容都改變比方說以前魚撈 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7255.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7275.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那可能有些輪機長啊或者是大副啊他是需要考這個執照的那是不是已經減少需求了,比方說冶金那冶金過去是有,冶金科的大概有成大跟過去的台北工專 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7276.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7297.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
可是現在都轉型成材料因為材料都已經進入這個高科技啊到台積電去啦所以液晶會比較少都到材料科學去了所以就整個需求有改變啦是是是所以主委我其實你這個你點出了本席其實疑問的地方啊就是說第一個會不會是我們當時在立這個法的時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7298.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7313.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
的確有這樣的一個要求跟需求那後來產業形態的改變這個產業沒落所以這種需求就減少第二種會不會是這種需求市場上所需要的人他根本不需要技師執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7314.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7333.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
第三種我們政府相關在這方面的人才的規定譬如說土木技師你就有規定這個行業哪一種行業他要做什麼必須要簽證要有土木技師合格的簽證他才可以所以有一些行業根本沒有任何的需要簽證所以他幹嘛去考 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7334.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7363.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那我的意思是說所以不管他哪一個原因或理由主委你有沒有覺得有沒有必要把這一部祭司法重新好好的來調整而不是只有我們在講這個罹患精神疾病身心障礙啦等等這些地方要不要審查啦等等會不會應該要回歸到這一部祭司法裡面隨著時代的演進到今天為止立了這個法結果有一些項目32個項目裡面根本 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7364.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7391.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我是常這是總共嘛或許有可能有一些科別可能已經五年了可能沒比多少年一個人來報考都沒有所以主委你覺得這應不應該好好的來把這一部技師法這種核心問題好好的來檢討一下那這個謝謝委員的這個意見我們再跟考試院來協商有些考試科目是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7392.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7418.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
的確如果長年沒有人報考那麼還是不是有必要檢討或者社會根本沒有這種需求這必須要跟考試院來一下就是各個行業也了解一下然後考試院詢問一下然後實際在產業運作的需求面再清楚的認知一下我們就可以好好的把這個祭司法這個法令核心的問題我們好好來做一個檢討這第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7422.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7448.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
第二個針對這些科別裡面這個大地工程技師這個歷年報考跟錄取人數我們把它做一個統計我們就可以發現從110年開始我們改了一個考試方法叫做兩階段考試就是考兩次的意思那你看可以從過去大概都250人以上甚至高達390人 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7451.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7454.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
的報考人數一下驟減成15跟22那 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7458.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7486.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個倒考人數更低只有11跟12那入取人數當然相對比例上沒有低因為他等於有一半考上了有一半考上不會比你一階段考的時候不會比那個雙軌制考的時候來的入取率來的比例來的低好那112年開始我覺得可能我們發現這個一下子人數不合理不正常的驟減所以我們又恢復這個雙軌制 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7489.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7506.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那主委你對於這個這個驟減啊導致可能業界人才的需求不足或者是工會好像也有提出一些看法嘛那主委你覺得這個大地工程技師到底這個出了什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7507.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7529.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
很有的人程度比較好他認為分兩階段考試太麻煩了但是也有說如果分兩階段考試那麼有的人可以充分的準備這個也是很好的一個概念那到明年開始到底要恢復兩階段還是雙軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7530.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7546.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們正在跟考試院在商議當中這個必須由這個商議妥適之後他們再來決定到底是兩階段或者是維持一階段或者是雙軌同步那我們也會跟工會來討論OK這個市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7551.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7571.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
大力工程技師市場有需求大家才會關心如果他跟其他業別一樣根本沒有人在考那這個其實就不需要在這裡討論他討論方向應該是這個要不要要存費但看起來他大家很關心所以他數字不合理不明顯數字不合理非常明顯的驟降 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7573.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7580.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
從那個比例縮減可能是九成啦所以那個比例是非常不合理的驟降所以這裡面一定有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7582.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7607.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
問題存在那站在立法院監督的立場我們一定希望執照不可以亂發嘛這個祭司一定要學有專精要合格要怎麼樣啊但是呢市場也有他的需求面嘛就市場他你連續好幾年都大地工程祭司都沒人扣得掉或者錄取的比例很低的情況底下那可能在引起市場供需的問題上面也會出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7608.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7620.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以我覺得這個數字它不合理它會驟降八九成以上的它背後一定有一個原因所以我還是會希望工程會跟考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7623.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7643.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
會後針對這個問題 恐怕要好好研究因為數字 如果說你說就減個10% 20%甚至30% 我們都還可以理解但是一下子這個報名人數這個少了大概九成有這個其實我覺得就不合理啦所以主委 這應該可以來了解一下立即跟考試院來商量好 OK 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7653.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7654.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 謝謝 我們現在請何欣竹委員好 謝謝趙偉 我們請陳清德主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7683.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7705.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
委員長主委長 政委長我想道路交通安全是我們公共建設一個最重要的一環尤其在現在我看到你的引述也曾經在我們行人交通安全設施條例三讀通過上路的時候你也說你要接著持續改善道安 對不對主委那我們大家要跨部會一起來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7706.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7722.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那為什麼今天要特別就這件事情來詢問主委是在於我們公共工程委員會呢 轄管的這個全台灣各大大小小的這個公共工程不管是這個督導啦 品質啦還有呢 他的安全啦 協調等等啦那還有 當然還有一個原則性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7726.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7744.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
有一個新聞我最近在地方基層走動那很多議員在表示那曾經在媒體有報導過我們現在各縣市在針對所謂的義照式路口的改善那我們中央補助那地方也有自籌款那同時在進行不過呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7746.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7772.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
很多人會有一個疑問會不會越改越不安全那這個媒體裡面是寫說一圓直出有24個入口越改越不安全事故反增逾六成認為要重新檢討主委我不知道您認為看到這樣子我們要交通安全所以我們大力的投注資源預算要來改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7773.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7794.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
但是呢 越改越不安全 這個問題出在哪裡主委你知道我想這個目前的改善的項目都是交通部這個相關的一個是交通部 一個是內政部國土署對 他們提出來 內政部跟交通部提出來都應該有經過專業的評估不過就是的確是有時候呢那麼有些 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7800.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7822.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
改善的確不能達到預期的效果比方說有些大家都對庇護島都有一些意見的確是很很努力的在依照是路段或相關的設施已經到各鄉鎮公所都是在進行了那這部分中央也寬裂預算如果我交通部他應該有一個4年大概4 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7828.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7838.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
交通部跟內政部兩個部會都有編列相關的預算我們大力的在支持要改善這是方向是對的但是改是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7839.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7857.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
國人期待是要越改越好那當然這中間也有我們自己國人的一個交通這個安全駕駛的習慣觀念等等也要跟著要改變但是呢我們的路口改善是屬於公共工程的一環我接下來就要告訴主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7858.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7874.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我發現到幾個問題啦我覺得也許不是公共工程委員會的問題但是我覺得這跨部會是不是可以溝通協調我們現在的工程規範所有的公共工程在設計之初規劃設計的時候就要依照所謂的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7875.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7888.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
而這個規範是由各事業主管單位來訂定但是我們起碼現行在我們這個政府體制內就有三個版本第一個內政部公路局有公路局的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7890.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7915.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
交通部公路局有公路局的版本內政部國土署針對市區道路有它的版本我們現在又有一個統一道路標準交通部又改版了又有一個規劃指引我就不知道說在公共工程裡面當然都有它的設計規範不同的道路設計不同的施工標準還有審認的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7918.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7937.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
主委這件事你應該也知道啦的確這個是屬目的事業主管機關每一個事業每一個這個目的的這個主管機關都告訴我說這個我們都有所謂的專業的人士不管是學者專家或者是技師來參與討論所以訂了這些技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7940.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7965.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
標準對不對那這個祭司還有相關的標準到底是不是合於現在的交通安全或是交通環境或者是城鄉差距不一的各個道路系統跟路口我覺得這個公共工程委員會是不是可以花點時間來好好的盤點來思考一下可以有什麼樣的作為接下來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7966.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7981.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我們認為道路要改善第一個要提升行人安全還有在道路上的人車車子還包含什麼汽車大型車還有我們的自行車還有機車 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7984.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8009.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
同時在道路行駛的時候道路的改善交通的改善要更貼近國民的需求人民的需求但是我們現在的計畫的審查標準不是只有設計規範不一樣而已喔是連地方政府他在做這個計畫來送給中央省的時候有不同的審查標準標準不一樣該怎麼辦主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8013.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8040.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
地方政府他可能有分都市計畫內的或者是說這個屬交通不管的他分屬他直屬的目的機關去申請那我現在就要跟主委來談那所以呢公共工程委員會針對不同的標準不同的計畫審查不同的一個施工不同的執行好我們雖然呢叫做督導之責還有呢要去管他的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8042.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8069.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
還有管所謂的相關的這個專業證照的設計規範監工等等啦但是剛剛我看到很多委員因為今天在審計師法啦齁那我們都在談計師啦齁那我們現在接下來就說這些計畫的審查標準都來自於哪裡專業人士嘛學者專家嘛那我們公共工程委員會有相關的計師的一個人才顧或者是學者專家的人才顧公 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8070.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8081.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們中央各部會還有地方政府來做審酌來聘任是不是我們的那個名單是屬採購評選的專家學者不過剛才委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8085.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8103.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
建立很好啦我們會請這個交通部或內政部甚至其他的機關共同把這些不同的設計規範或設計標準有沒有共通性的地方或什麼差異性的地方我們可以做一個或者營地質疑的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8104.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8119.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們剛剛看到台中市為什麼大家民眾對於我們的入口改善我們投資了那麼對不起我們補助了那麼多經費投資了那麼多錢在做入口的改善但是呢讓國人感受不到而且認為越改越糟糕 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8119.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8145.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
不過我跟委員報告這個車禍或者是說嚴重的車禍有時候除了道路之外跟交通的管理也有關係是交通的管理那又是另外一件事那當然地方政府要去負起他的責任他的交通管理措施是怎麼做但是我們現在就只能就公共工程委員會裡面對於這個硬體的設施土木的工程我們怎麼樣的來要求或是我們怎麼樣的來希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8150.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8161.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
第一個我們道路的計畫審查的標準你知道嗎我聽地方政府或者是一些有參與過審查會議的人說我第一次上來來的評審委員說可能還要再修改我又回去修了第二次來的換了不同的評審委員來這個第二次不同的評審委員說這個改得不好還有什麼要改 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8175.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8190.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
好 又改了之後又送到第三次第三次的評審委員審查委員又不一樣了這一個計畫可以因為審查的過程修修改改然後每一次要求的都不一樣他可以改六七次以上那問題出在哪裡如果是越改越好那很好啊但是呢問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8199.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8221.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
大家不知道有沒有越改越好因為不同的審查委員他看的重點不一樣那因為看的重點不一樣所以要求要調整的計畫內容就不一樣這個就是我們現行在對於路口改善或者是我們在對於交通的公共工程的這些相關的安全改善裡面我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8222.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8238.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
覺得標準到底是什麼還有我剛剛提到的以台中市來講台中市有都市計劃區原台中市是全區都是都市計劃區原台中縣有非都跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8239.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8261.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
都內 那不同的道路系統又有繼承道路 又有傳統的這個整個的路變做市區道路整個的路叫什麼 產業道路走走走 也會變做市區道路啊各位以前五分的車走路 走走走 現在沒有五分的車但是現在它叫做我們的市區道路啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8262.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8285.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那這些如果是重大路口的交通安全要改善那到底要怎麼改不是我們在台北的審查委員看了說要調什麼就要調整什麼要改什麼就改什麼我們現在比較苦惱的是這件事好 我跟委員報告這可能是要地方政府尋求中央政府的補助的時候的計畫了那麼現在已經有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8288.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8305.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
行人交通安全設施設置條例那麼也政府採購法也通過了所以將來呢第一個地方政府會變得比較有錢第二個呢根據這個行人交通安全設施設置條例管理依照式路口或相關的道路的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8307.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8322.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
改善他本來就是地方政府的權責他應該去調查去規劃去設計去施工那中央政府的內政部或交通部看這個縣市政府你是不是做的改善的很好必要的時候再補助將來補助會減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8325.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8346.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那我希望你現在講的可以跟交通部跟內政部要先溝通好因為以現行的計畫補助程序不是如你所講的這樣現行地方政府提出案子之後要經過交通部跟內政部的審查委員審查通過才會予以補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8346.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8368.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
交通部跟內政部這些 因為你的高度夠我是希望交通安全這些的設施設標誌標線等等這些路口的改善要做得好要安全所以有的要因地制宜啦 是啦你也來自宜蘭縣所以你也知道嘛要有些是該有因地制宜的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8369.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8389.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那有些又什麼是一定要要求的標準那但是呢我們的審查委員到底能不能有一致性或者是他能不能理解這些城鄉的差異性我覺得這個就是我們政府單位也許你會說這不是我公共工程委員會的事但是呢如果我們的公共工程要做得好 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8391.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8414.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那必須這些細節是不是能夠去盤點了解清楚能夠跨部會大家來協調看看這是一個我提出來給主委給政委你一個建議喔第二個我們為什麼會有這些這個差異性還包括剛剛有很多委員提到我們現在既是土木的工程人員的人才的流失 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8415.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8443.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
你去問了一下 我相信公共工程委員會也知道我們不管上到中央下到地方政府所有公務體系在辦公共工程的土木的技師土木的相關的承辦人員永遠都缺我舉一個例子我每年都要上梨山去關心農民去看看山上的這個交通還有這個水保工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8444.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8461.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
你知道交通部公路局的骨關公務段他永遠在找人他永遠每年都有人要離開他的土木的相關的公務人員永遠不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8464.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8480.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以我必須要提醒主委這個人的問題牽涉到的是我們公共工程的推進的不管是這個安全也好不管是品質也好不管是它的永續也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8481.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8506.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這個方方面面人是最重要的這我相信你在行政院你在總統那邊也都說得上話我們如何去解決相關的人的問題我提供你幾個數字因為我時間不夠了這媒體也都曾經講過全台灣公務員近年來的離職率增加尤其是土木建築專業的公務人員更是明顯我剛剛講的是谷關公務段 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8508.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8523.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那媒體報導是以地方政府的相關的工程處在過去每年大概有20個人報導但是最近這3年每年報導數只有3人那平均的離職率都高達19人 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8525.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8537.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我剛剛我所知道的谷關公務段那是其中一個單位 那個也很艱難的單位啦因為為什麼 要去到國關嘛 國關是雷山台八線嘛那三點半也沒有人要去 年輕人也坐不住嘛而且呢 再加上它的危險性相對的高 風險相對的高所以呢 人撈不住啦大概喔 就算被分發到那裡待了三年滿可以走的一定都走人啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8554.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8572.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
那我們能夠用什麼樣的方式來增加誘因來留住這些技師這些土木工程人才主委這個是我們要關注的一個很重要的問題在外面的公司做事薪水比公務機關高多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8575.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8602.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
基本上能夠考進公務機關的圖目高考他大概都會有技師執照所以他在外面他有技師執照也可以受聘去工作薪水也高公務機關不但是普遍低薪那縣市政府鄉鎮公所值等又低我們要怎麼增加誘因這個誘因除了薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8606.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8623.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
所謂值等的部分事實上是對地方政府的值等有些配置啊應該有機會能夠提提原額能夠增加高值等的能夠增加這樣才能夠留住有技師執照的土木工程的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8624.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8644.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
對啦 我是希望提供這一個點 這是我看到我的憂心啦這不是只有我說的谷關的公務段 或者是這個地方政府的新公處等等啦你去調查了一下 大概普遍從中央到地方政府 只要是跟相關的這個土木工程或是建築工程相關的公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8645.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8667.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
人員的離職率都普遍的高流動性也高那所以呢以流動性高的話那對於公共工程的品質或者是我們對於公共工程的一個設計的一個相關的一個處理經驗的傳承那都是問題啊都是問題這個我想也是我們公共工程委員會的一個職責啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8669.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8690.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我們跟考試院已經商討了這個三次的會議了我們會針對偏鄉來跟大學合作來設置這種營建管理或就是這個土木人才的在地的培訓讓在地比方說比較東部的在地的培訓他有這個執照之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8691.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8706.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
可以留在當地服務或者當地的機關來做事那至少留得住嘛不然有的地方的確連高考之後連報到都不會去報到這個是的確是一個很嚴重的問題這個我們也知道我們正在進行檢討中 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8723.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8742.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
好 接下來質詢是我們許智傑召委謝謝主席我們請主委主委請委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8746.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8770.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
辛苦了 主委 我想其實剛剛新存委員提到的那包括技師 包括工程人員 包括薪資這些是很膨脹的 要叫你這樣全部所有國家的問題解決後會很困難但是 我們可以盡量去想 盡量去想說有什麼比較好的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8771.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8799.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就像我要求了很多年就是本來我們是兩億以上的工程嘛然後盡量用最有力標現在達到的比例已經升高了嘛那當時其實我會拜託說這個工程呢最有力標的方向之外就是政風跟主計可以加入這個行列那為什麼呢因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8801.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8811.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
最低標的缺點就是低價強標會降低品質啦最有利標的優點當然就是說會比較好但是比較容易作弊所以這很傷腦筋那現在比如說我們的公共工程10萬調到15萬元就是說這個部分到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8828.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8851.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
要用比如說你一般幾千萬的啦要用最低標還是用最有利標比較好講的那個15萬以上那是小額採購啦那小額採購如果太低的話是製造那個公務人員的困擾那有些你說買一張機票要比價的話那就很麻煩真的有人因此而出訪買機票 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8854.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8871.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
還要三家比價嗎這個是小採購我們是希望提升到這個主委這個更改我還蠻認同的啦提高到15萬啦市會市長也不多啦對對對所以總是讓不要讓公務員這個不小心就觸發而且增加很多麻煩啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8872.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8897.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那我也認同這個剛才委員的建議就是說在開標的時候如果是用評選的最有利標那我們是希望這個主計政風應到場我們會修改按照委員的意見修改相關的一些作為辦法所以現在就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8898.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8913.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們的最有利標我們都有希望他們陰道場我們會改成陰啦就是現在是德嘛對不對我們會改成陰道場這什麼時候可以改 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8915.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8941.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那個我們這個辦法已經是改成他應通知這個政風主計派是已經修改所以目前看起來這個派員的比例有增加在持續增加OK好這個對政風主計比較不好意思啦會增加到很多的工作但是呢這個對公務員要做決策的時候比較敢有擔當啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8942.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8970.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以我覺得這可以繼續推動就是說把消防組給拍攝或是說要多參與所以說今天其實我們公務員他不敢擔當最怕就是剛剛主委講到的我沒有逼給逼候我叫他變圖利 變貪汙這很困擾公務員其實如果是這樣子檢察官又不特別去明察就變成檢察官濫訴造成公務員不敢勇於認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8972.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8994.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以現在其實檢察官我們也希望說法務部那邊我們要要求說其實你要像剛才那個剛才賴委員講到那個懲戒之前懲戒之前要先有個內部的一個一個大概的審核看看他不要說隨便要送懲戒就送懲戒因為你要保護技師有時候他課很不簡單像蘇悅說的那樣你一個就給他送去這個就對他傷害很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9000.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9016.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以我的意思就是說其實我們盡量的要送檢察官要起訴之前要先明查或者是說包括檢察官的那個起訴定罪比我們其實要求好幾年這部分都還沒改善過來那就公務員的部分來講其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9018.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9045.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
很多公務員希望有擔當但是很多公務員很無奈地說我沒資格去做或者吃不完就走所以就是說如果有針鋒組織的參與事實上對他們來講我敢有擔當嘛我同時有健康主機都在現場我也不怕你後悔想啊有的想要後悔來的看到健康主機在現場他就不敢後悔來所以這個部分我希望能夠繼續推動那另外就是說還有一個就是說比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9046.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9057.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
資格標加最低標跟最有利標跟純粹的最低標這三種工程會會不會去擬定一個概略的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9058.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9085.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我請副主委來跟您說 包委那個就這個最有利標到底應該平選什麼項目那個是我們法規上面有去做我意思是我們政府民意要注意的 因為你買東西的時候有一些買新衣服可能有的款式 買一樣的衣服要再倒或是要修補的那種有可能就是說你用最低標跟最有利標之間有可能 也有這種可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9085.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9108.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我意思就是說我們工程會繼續掛這種概略性的問題那我今天在減少弊病跟能夠保持品質的這些部分去找到一個平衡點就是說這個部分要拜託工程會再疏克一下最後我簡單再拜託一下就是BOT跟ROT這促成法在我們現在工程會的角度說那是財政部的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9110.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9136.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
因為這個業務已經移到財政部來我們讓三位請問一下落入這個問題B公共工程建設是我們工程會的對吧B之後要OT的時候發現沒夠營還是攤營所以你B跟OT如果沒有一起想就會造成我們方向車站現在飆兩次了現在要飆第三次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9138.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9167.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
我一直擔心說這個飆不出去有一個問題就是說他們如果要符合本來的功能規範啦現在要可能還要再做改建所以就是說你在B跟OT如果沒有一起思考你現在公共工程在工程會出產法在財政部我B是在工程會啊我OT還在財政部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9171.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9189.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
它應該是整個計畫是一個案這個計畫經過行政院來審查來核定是同時核定是屬於BOT案那至於它的建造部分它有基本設計嘛基本設計那個才是工程會審查的我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9190.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9206.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那如果說因為這個機關招標有困難我們也樂意來共同來協調或者是說是不是能夠提供一些意見來加速這個就有兩個方向嘛一個方向就是說我弄什麼車頭要怎麼補救 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9207.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9212.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
後面的後面的他可能要變成ROT那ROT跟工程會也沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9222.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9243.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
他應該就是說他一開始建的時候就沒有想要VOT只想要建所以他會走公司生產採購那建完以後那麼他就兩種選擇一個是有關經營管理的部分他也可以採用政府採購他也可以走促餐所以他後面這個部分就會出現兩種可能其實我是凸顯這個問題這個問題我們要解決之外要凸顯這個問題就是說注意了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9251.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9255.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
醫療公共工程有可能BOT的其實你一開始就要做回事所以我現在就是說對於一個公共建設再工程會出產法又在財政部現在變什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9268.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9294.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這個統合的時候每一個單位有可能未來有可能是OT的部分都要去陷畢業的時候就要做回想了所以是不是工程會這個部分思考一下建立一下說怎麼去把這一個關係結合在一起比如說全國很多的重大公共建設要建的時候以後要OT的時候假設我現在要不去也要注意你覺得要怎麼處理才好 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9295.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9318.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
就是在畜餐跟公共工廠的部分要怎麼樣去整合這個還是回到他原案啦原案在做可信性評估或者是中規的時候他應該都想到了最好是原來一個案原來就是準備原案就有打算以後要OT了以後就做什麼這個規劃他應該一開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9320.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9328.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
甚至有的是 比方說有的是潛在廠商就要進來討論了我舉例啦 高鐵 我舉例高鐵的經營鐵道局在做的時候 一開始就要跟未來要營運的高鐵公司就要討論了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9336.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9356.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那他一定有他的想法 但鐵道局在興建這個高鐵的時候也有他的想法所以他一開始就要進來了 是比較大的公共工程案是這樣所以現在大跟小 就是信職主委 我們熟考一下啦他要回到 你也有可能要再後退的那個B案啦我們應該用什麼角度去宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9358.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9380.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
或者是在哪個法規應該怎麼訂人家再來研究啦就說醫療這個地方如果有可能必須要再OT的那就不要再分工程會跟財政部啦要怎麼整合來做一個醫療對台灣所有的建設不只是我們學校廠而已所有的建設做一個整體的宿客好不好再拜託主委幫我研究一下我們再討論好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9391.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9392.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
休息,休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10018.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10031.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
好 現在開始開會 我們請黃建豪委員好 謝謝主席 主席我們請工程會陳主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10039.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10068.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
好 委員好主委好 主委我想今天當然大家都有講為土木機師這個來稍微發點聲就包含說我提一個案例當然過今年今年而已這行政委合訂說從6月開始像這個公職獸醫師或醫佐每人每月有所謂的不開業獎金希望能達到公務機關公務機關能夠留才的這個狀況然後當然前面也有委員提到他包含說我們也稍微有陳情就是說在土木機師這個行業類別裡面當然他去業界開業的獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10069.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10091.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
他的這個收入或他的這個待遇相對來講會比留在公募買來的高嘛那我也期待說工程會或是我們各單位的那種土木技師的這個這樣的工作經驗能夠傳承那誰想問一下主委對於說如果也把這個所謂土木技師工會土木技師這個類別的公務人員也編列像這樣的這樣的不開業獎金這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10092.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10093.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
請副主委來說明 因為這個已經有相關的獎金已經在執行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10106.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10123.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
行政機關土木工程人員人才的流失確實是一個全面性的問題所以大概在去年行政局已經有做過檢討已經有建立了一些9任的獎金制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10126.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10153.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那目前當然成效可能還要看看實行的成效但是同時也在搭配整個譬如說要不要去檢討考試的制度啦要不要特別針對這個他們的職等啊他們的權責啦那麼以及我們有去統計這些離開公務體系的人他們裡面的一些他們最care的可能包括他們覺得風險很高因為他們可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10154.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10169.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
覺得他們的專業上面執行業務的時候很有可能會被認為是違法訴訟風險很高但是我們也這部分有跟法務部那麼也有希望建立聯繫的也讓他們了解說這些專業人員在他們執行職業是有他們特別的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10170.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10187.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以是雙向在做溝通那至於要不要在所謂的不開業獎金聽起來是目前是比較有大的意見可能還相當保留但是我想可能是看目前的這些幾個措施執行的狀況再看看後面要不要再來繼續處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10189.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10207.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好 謝謝我想 既然這個工程會有這樣準備那我們還是希望說把這樣的考量列進去啦 就是說怎麼樣讓這樣的經驗能夠傳承 能夠留才我想這對公務機關 對整個國家都是好事不然所有人都跑去業界了我想對政府也是很麻煩 好不好遇到業界他還有技師執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10209.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10228.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
可以聘為相關公司的專業人員嘛那在公務機關他就不能夠兼任職務所以那個證照對他來講是沒有用的但是像土木、銀件、大地工程、結構技師有時候一個人他會考取三、四張執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10229.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10256.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以這個執行起來也要稍微評估看看好主委謝謝那今天我們討論到像這個一個數據我想工程會在督導各機關採購案件的時候以這個最有利標異常案件來看的話這幾年每年這個最有利標異常案件都是數十到上百件但真的移送集合的案件我想就是個位數那每年當然每年檢討的報告裡面都是大部分都是所謂的誤算絕標公告或誤寫法規所致 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10258.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10277.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好那我想問的是說到底是因為採購是有證照的就是要去處理採購案件的不管是承辦或是相關主管應該對這個事情業務都很熟悉那到底為什麼第一個原因是為什麼每年都有這麼多重複性不斷在發生的自由立辦異常案件這麼多那以及移送機的案件為什麼這麼少這個原因到底出在哪裡好 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10284.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10300.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
跟委員報告因為這個有關於這個物善絕標公告或不了解法規這個部分因為採購法因為他是比較細緻的規定所以有一些會比較有細節上的一些注意的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10301.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10329.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那這個部分我們是從源頭開始去處理第一個是在辦採購的時候我們是要求說一定金額以上的這個採購案要有採購專業人員來參與第二個是我們會持續的去訓練這個採購人員和在職的強化訓練那就這個委員指導的這個異常案件比率我們會再去加強讓這個案件異常案件能夠降低移送的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10330.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10344.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
每年都幾十件或上當然最嚴重是110年120件嘛那我們就不管這個具體原因是什麼我想就光是移送集合案件的比例也偏低啦那為什麼移送集合的比例這麼低原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10347.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10362.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這應該是說 集合的啟動 實際上我們一個是移送集合 另外一個是機關本身就有設定主動集合的目標所以我們每年去集合的比例我記得有6%還是到8% |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10367.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10381.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
6%就是說我們這個是有設定目標值縱使沒有其他狀況各機關的集合小組或工程會的集合小組都會去集合所以可能實際的這個集合件數會比這個還多好主委這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10383.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10405.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
既然有這樣的數據喔 剛才也提到了 包含說你說要去要求第一線採購人員去把這個法規弄清楚 因為其實就我所說 因為政府機關裡面大家辦採購應該是有續定跟考照的啊 他才能去辦採購嘛 對吧那這考試內容有問題呢 還是說他實際執行的時候發生什麼狀況因為我是想知道說到底是什麼原因 你如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10406.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10428.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
前兩年假設採購法剛上路所以前面有幾年當然大家不熟悉法令會有這樣的問題但我想採購法上路那麼多年每年都在辦這麼多最有利標的採購各地方政府各機關都有在辦前面幾年數據高大家可以理解後面幾年數據還是很高到底這個要怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10431.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10450.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
那個我想我們會去再確實的了解這個發生問題的原因針對問題去處理這我拜託一下我想你們檢討完之後是不是給委員會大家一份簡單的報告讓大家知道到底原因出來的不然每年的比例這麼高我想對政府機關的形象然後對委員在看會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10451.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10470.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
會覺得很奇怪啦好不好主委正在修訂政府採購法那原政府採購法或者相關的執法那麼有些的確是文字有些有的部分會產生文字比較不清楚或者是其他的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10471.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10491.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那這部分也是列入我們在重新檢討的地方我們盡量採購法的法律或相關執法那麼它相關規定都很清楚讓這個主辦採購機關他比較不會去誤解法規這個也是我們要做的一部分主委講到採購法這個我再多問一下就是說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10493.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10513.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
過去常常講說很多新聞事件不管像之前講的這個防彈衣等等這種採購的一些狀況都會講說黑心廠商屢次得標那當然依法來講他如果被他如果是廠商有問題那當然他就不能來投票但是問題現在是說廠商跟這個人好像是分開有兩個漏洞嘛一個是公司停權 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10514.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10526.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
但負責人員被停權所以他另外去處理就可以來投另外可能就是自己被停權那就跟得標廠商去簽約去分包就這類似這樣的樣態業界也確實都這樣處理我不知道說在採購法即將要檢討假設你們要檢討採購法 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10532.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10547.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那這個部分的漏洞也要補起來因為過去我知道也有委員想要主張做這個事情但後來多數委員覺得說當時的情況環境背景下就沒有這樣做了但是現在一直有這樣類似的狀況發生那我不知道工程會的立場怎麼樣你們要不要把這個漏洞補起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10549.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10568.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
報告委員,整個禮約過程裡面有參與到政府採購的廠商,不只是得標廠商嗎?可能包括它的供應商,包括它的分包商,原則上我們是會就這整個全面性有參與政府採購系統的接觸的人員,會一併來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10573.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10597.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那有關說這個譬如說他被停權了他可能另外其他設了新的公司或者他已經有在經營其他的公司那這個目前採購法是沒有就這麼處理那我們現在檢討的方向是希望把停權的效果給予因為他在經營嘛所以他潛在可能就會有產生很大將來會違約的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10599.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10621.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那我們是有往這邊來修正那可能到時候到大院來可能要大院來支持這樣的一個做法那目前我們是採用一個過渡性的做法是假設是在最有利標的那麼他這個停權廠商的負責人他其他廠商來投標我們會把他列到他的時機不良裡面讓機關在評選的時候有一個參考的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10623.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10649.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以最後這個方向上看起來是一致啦就是說最後還是要追到自然人嘛不能只用公司這個當作標的嘛最後的標的是自然人為主吧是吧這樣主委是這樣嗎沒有錯好那這樣我想這個漏洞有機會補起來那我們期待你們趕快把這個漏洞把它補起來然後趕快提出相關的版本我想多數委員會支持啦那個會期會送到這個大院來審理好OK主委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10657.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10675.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
謝謝我們請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請邱若驊委員好謝謝主席主席請工程會主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10682.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10708.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
委員好主委好主委本席在今年的3月17日曾經就新北市的捷運山陰線延伸到桃園巴德這一岸就是向您提出質詢那當時也特別提醒主委因為國際原物料價格持續上漲那會直接影響到工程的預算那延遲確定只會讓成本越來越高那本席當時也舉了三個國內公共工程的案例嘛因為原物料波動而調漲的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10710.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10737.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
預算的案例 那主委請問您還有印象嗎工程會本身針對物條的部分讓廠商能夠 就是執行中的啦能夠物條的一些原則跟法規有在檢討啦有在檢討 那委員提的這個個案如果是因為的確是這樣的事情它的方向是應該是走修正計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10738.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10753.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
是 本席當時也有向主委提出希望您能向院長反映那請行政院技術核定捷運山陰線延伸到桃園八德那距離上次質詢後剛好80天主委請問這段時間您有沒有跟院長提起這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10754.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10779.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們是整體性的跟院長提了很多案那有包含這一案嗎 有可以可以這段時間內有沒有向院長提出這一案我記憶所提是個案沒有跟院長個案沒有提出那OK好那本期還建議還是要就三一線延伸到八德這一案還有他相關的公共工程的問題就叫主委主委您知道目前三一線主體工程的進度到哪裡了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10782.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10801.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
我是不是我們有去查核工程會有沒有掌握主委沒關係因為時間因為時間的關係那根據最新的資料到今年4月他進度是83.19%沒錯那預計何時完工預計何時正式營運那工程會這邊知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10816.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10835.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
我們會安排一個時間去視察這條捷運線它預計今年會年底會完工然後明年正式營運那主委那這樣看下來你應該也不知道那今年4月21日的時候新北市長也都有帶人親自去試乘然後還有視察看無人駕駛的測試那整體的工程進度已經到了最後的階段了 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10836.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10849.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那我們看到捷運三星線延伸到巴德這個案子從去年9月30號交通部他送交行政院到今天為止已經拖258天都還沒有通過核定主委你知道這件事拖那麼久這樣的行政效率您認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10851.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10865.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
原委員報告不只是這個個案有很多案在核定過程也因為種種因素啊那麼有重新再檢討那麼再審議啦並不會是針對這個個案說258天沒有核定那這樣的行政效應您認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10872.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10892.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
不是行政效率 有的大概基於整體的考量或是經費 或者是相關的因為時間的延宕 它會影響到工程的經費那它已經卡在行政院258天那它這個計畫 它的基電後擴期限也從去年的6月19號延到今年的6月19號那主委 您知道這個嚴重性嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10894.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10913.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
當然這個整個計畫能夠如期如子來解決民眾的需求是行政院一向的目標如果說有一些狀況不允許不只這個山陰縣還有其他重大建設整個進度也都 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10914.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10938.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
本期今天要和主委討論的是經費的問題因為是時間上面行政效率的問題那我這邊要舉我們桃園綠線延伸到中立的後擴經費大漲的案例嘛那這個計劃原本是在2017年後擴他預算編列90億2018年呢決標調整到97億那沒有想到當時呢隨著COVID-19還有烏鴉戰爭還有缺工缺料等因素加上美國關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10940.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10965.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
等種種因素影響下那最後在2025年也就是今年他調漲到了220億從原先編列的90億調漲到了221億他的漲幅呢非常驚人高達144%那本是不希望捷運三陰線他變成下一個代價高昂的拖延那所以這部分您能來協助嗎我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10967.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10980.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
增為220億的部分不單純是物條不單純是物價那會有改良的新因素請主委說明我印象所及這個縣應該有一些涉戰的涉戰或設計的改變的問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10986.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11005.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
其他的重大建設我想行政院會整體來考量優先次序然後盡量滿足地方的需求是 那本席剛剛也有提到這條三陰線延伸到桃園八德它如果沒有辦法在今年6月19號獲得核定那它一定接下來也會經費也會實質的暴增 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11007.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11020.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那這個經費到時候又是由地方政府來負擔那主委你也擔任過宜蘭縣的代理縣長沒有錯吧那你知道對這個這個費用的保證對地方政府的財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11023.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11040.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
會帶來什麼樣的影響這個同樣對中央政府的主管機關也帶來很大的壓力啦是很大的壓力那既然是地方除了地方的這個經費之外中央也會補助嘛所以同樣都會有壓力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11041.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11061.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
是 那本席要跟主委這邊反映就是說過去行政院他以LB12A跟LB13這兩站他的出站人數還有運量不足的問題他遲遲不肯核定那本席也有向桃園市政府提出多次協調提出對策那對於這兩站市府認為有涉站的必要性建議保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11062.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11082.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
另外LB12A站市政府則是暫時站不設立那如果對來都市發展有需求的話他可以再後續再進行擴充設站那您是工程會的主委也是政務委員您認為地方政府都已經做出務實的妥協跟回應了那行政院還有什麼理由再來卡關呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11083.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11094.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
好 這個我會跟交通部來瞭解是 那什麼時候可以有得到主委的回覆我跟交通部瞭解整個狀況之後再跟委員報告OK 好 再請主委協助 謝謝好 謝謝 我們請中交兵委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11121.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11133.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
主席 在場的委員先進列席的政務機關長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們陳主任委員請主委跟公共工程採購的部分的主管也可以請上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11137.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11159.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
主委好 其他的主管好我想今天來請教不只是您是主委 您也是政委我提到川普的關稅政策重視非紅供應鏈那麼政府採購是不是要排除特定地區來保查任性 我們往下看川普政策大家都了解其實在上個月 4月到5月我們在經濟委員會在關心一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11160.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11176.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
在台灣的汽車因為美國他的關稅的關係他認為只要是有中國成本35%的修飾為中國車要刻意非常高的關稅甚至禁止進口但是在我們台灣經濟部的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11178.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11198.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我們的整車產業它事實上它的自治率要逐年調高到35%今年8月以後才到30%甚至我們知道台灣的整車廠它的很多零組件是來自於對岸因此就有委員質疑說那這樣的車子能符合美國對於非紅供應鏈的要求嗎主委你認為可不可以通得過這可能要請教美國吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11203.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11230.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
是 你要請教一下 打電話給您但是呢 我得到進步的答案是說台灣的整車業沒有在賣美國市場的啦因為台灣的整車業在美國市場沒有競爭力所以我們這樣的設置雖然跟美國認定標準不一樣但是呢 不受影響好了 但是呢台灣的供應鏈有很多來自中國或者是中國以外的第三地那這樣的一個組成的產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11230.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11234.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
甚至來到台灣組裝 可以供應給台灣的本國市場嗎這四位是 副主委好 李陳副主委對不起喂你好 那個我想公共產品是只有在主管在有關政府採購的部分是的 這有交問你的下一題對 所以我們的理解應該是從政府採購的部分那因為我們有加入GPA嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11257.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11285.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那原則上它有一個原產地的原則啦那這種非成員國的這個產品到底它經過什麼樣的一個資質轉換才會改變成是它產地別啊那這個這部分的主管機關據我所知應該是在財政部它有一個認定的辦法那是稅的問題海關的認定問題這我知道我在財政委員會好我們看下一題既然你說政府採購我就要問政府採購其實政府採購呢它其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11286.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11312.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
美方關鍵的是飛鴻但是我發現我們政府關鍵的是台制 國制譬如說政府補助如果是經濟部關鍵的領主件你要符合滿足我對這個產業關鍵的領主件的我才給你補助 這合理嘛對不對 我政府要給你的錢必須你滿足我的政策要求主委是不是這樣子所以政府補助要求要參與的業者你必須滿足我的正面表列我才給你 同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11313.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11329.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我想這是經濟部的業務啦他如果符合經濟部的相關規定我現在要問的是政府採購但是政府採購我們可以在採購合約要求供應商是限本國國產製品嗎可不可以可以限嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11331.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11345.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
啊你怎麼認定它是國產製品就是你說的財政部的只要財政部認定是就是是你們是這樣的標準嘛對不對好但是主委現在開始進入深水區了我們可以要求自製率嗎你的公共採購可以要求自製率嗎非GPS的也可以要求自製率好那我可以要求你的供應的產品關鍵零組件必須是國產的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11358.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11375.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好 那我先問一個有關於資安的晶片你們是把它放在哪個資安資訊產品是要求自製力還是要求國產製品還是要求你的這些有含有晶片的工程機具必須不得有中國的零組件的晶片可以要求嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11380.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11397.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
部長其實我今天要來談的是什麼呢就是在公共工程的採購當中啊其實我們的合約因為有其他的WTO的一些規範我們不能製造一些非關稅的障礙因此呢我們必須對有能力的全世界的廠商提供開放但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11398.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11419.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
有正當理由的時候我們還是可以限定譬如說我們的採購的財貨如果說有屬於供應鏈韌性的問題譬如說這個產品是中國供應的這個零組件是中國供應的但是一旦它不供應了我就買不到了那因此一開始我就不跟你買可不可以這樣子供應鏈韌性的部分 副主委完全沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11426.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11453.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
所以我們的公共工程採購合約可以明明白白的把各種的要求都排除中國的產製的零組件可以嗎那就是看那個目的世界主管機關他採購機關的需求合約上面都可以限都可以要求所以要拜託主委也拜託政委現在我們很多公共工程的採購合約他其實是一個標準的套裝但是在因應著各個機關我上次有問過要有一個減核表 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11454.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11476.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
有些不同的機敏設施有些不同的勞務採購我們要嚴防治安的風險嚴防紅色供應鏈對我們的服務的一些威脅所以我希望未來公共工程委員會在提供這些契約的模組的時候請你們先幫這些可能應用到的機關先設想好有哪些模組 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11478.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11495.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
或者你可以要求他全部限定是國產製品或者你要求他要有一定的自製率或者你要求他在關鍵零組件不得是哪些特定產地的或者是必須用本國產地的尤其是像晶片像資安甚至是一些會影響我們供應鏈韌性的舉例來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11499.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11514.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
電動車電動車目前我們的政府採購合約裡面並沒有要求電池不能使用中國製造我們都知道電動車的市場裡面電池中國是個最大的可能也是做得最多最好的也有可能所以要用有競爭力的電動車多半會採用中國的電池 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11517.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11531.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
但是因為採購合約裡面沒有限制因此得標廠商得標之後往往面臨一個困局他能得標 表示他的CP值很高他可能必須使用最有競爭力的零組件來構成但是一旦沒有得標廠商來檢舉說他怎麼用綜合電池 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11534.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11552.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
工程會能夠裁說這個合約無效嗎不行啊但是使用機關會產生什麼很大的困擾你買了電動車結果裡面電子是中國製的這個輿論披露還得了嗎這個不見得是我們的契約精神但是是社會上的常識認知會衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11553.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11563.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以我要請主委也請政委這個部分拜託工程會開始去做我們所有公共政府採購相關合約不管是勞務採購還是設備採購還是工程採購可以將這些模組研發出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11571.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11596.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
政府採購法是提供給政府機關進行各種採購的依據那至於機關他需要什麼不需要什麼機關他會記恆佐那關於是不是中資產品中資等等採購法以及相關規定或者是機敏的國安採購對相關的管制跟規定那我們也正這個在修正相關的來 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11597.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11612.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
工程會本身無法替每個機關想到他需要什麼就把它建立一個模組說你可以要這個不要那個我們在採購法是提供給大家採購就我們就法律的修正原則性的來修正是可以能夠達到委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11613.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11640.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個希望的這樣的要求啦謝謝主委因為我在地方政府過去也是擔任屬於政府採購當中的一個參與者我了解工程會有提供這些資源服務包括所謂的評審名單啊等等等所以我這要求的也不是說我們幫使用機關的政府做決定而是說我們幫他讓他提醒他有個檢核的表對於採購契約的限制條款有哪些是可以他們去應用去思考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11640.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11656.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
不是幫他們訂定採購合約而是建議他們再有一個指引我希望公共工程委員會可以訂一個指引然後呢在這個指引當中特別重視到我們現在要求的供應鏈的韌性所謂的供應鏈的韌性是對我們有安全妨礙的或是會不時的斷貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11659.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11684.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
就是說任意斷貨不符合契約精神但是造成我們使用方的困擾的類似這種狀況的條款我們給他充實或者提供指引那幫助很多地方政府並沒有能力去研發他也不曉得買這個東西會有這個地雷所以我是不是可以請工程會基於這樣的供應鏈韌性這個理由之一來對我們政府採購契約的限制條款提供一個指南或一個指引可以嗎 就像剛剛副主委所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11684.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11697.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
必要的時候就再補充相關的解釋然後函班給各機關好謝謝主委那是不是這樣的一個一個作為可以提供給本席這邊來瞭解我們的進度或作為可以嗎謝謝主席也謝謝主席好謝謝我們請永浩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11715.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11717.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
謝謝曹偉 謝謝主席 有請陳金德主委請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11725.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11743.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
委員好主委好那延續剛才鍾嘉賓委員所提到的這個部分那當然說目前來講在工程委員會在許多企業的部分模組的部分那有一個指導跟包括法規的主委機關的一個角色但是剛才所提到這蠻有趣的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11744.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11762.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
川普的這個衝擊之下那到底是是要排路還是要針對這個我們的產業來去進行這個扶植啊那我覺得說國防從委員會雖然是在政府採購法跟包括的政府的採購契約上面是主管機關但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11763.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11777.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
有些的一個是不是能夠扶植像你剛才講到電動汽車的這個電型電池到底是陸資還是在我們國內來講是不是有扶植相關的一些產業它能夠有這些補貼措施那我是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11778.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11794.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
就是主委因為您雖然是說工程委員會的主委他不用去對其他的部會做相關的一個指導因為你們就依法規來去辦理這個事務跟做法律的解釋但是因為曾經的主委您是身兼行政院的政務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11795.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11817.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
那所以說在這個許多的部會的業務推行推展的話您是非常清楚的所以我會建議說主委針對這個目前包括像剛才所電動車的這個電信電池還是不是能夠扶持相關產業除了在是否為陸資的一個認定跟契約採購的這個解釋之外我覺得其實可以更有更大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11818.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11829.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這就是責任是說如果是相關的這培育我們國內的產業啊那能夠具有競爭力啊那您有曾委員的身份應該也可以給有更多的建議啊好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11831.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11859.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
經濟部來了解好那再來的話針對5月11號您在宜蘭這邊有提到工地放領的政策那當然說你是去特別針對宜蘭蘇澳的台拓的土地80公頃在未來來講3月要完成放領那甚至是內政部跟財政部以及宜蘭縣政府還不得超過8月底那當然說在網路跟媒體的討論當然是好壞都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11859.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11873.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
但是我是覺得當然只要還地於民還對於我們農民的一個就是相關的權益能夠獲得提升那絕對是一個正向的事情那但是在後續來講的話其實整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11875.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11892.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
在全台的相關公定放領的一個政策我相信這個議題其實主委也主導了許久那除了宜蘭之外後續全台灣的一個公定放領包括台拓或是其他的一個國土地放領的一個方向上是不是可以趁這個機會再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11896.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11910.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
南澳台拓地的部分主要是因為它是平地耕地20年前就審查通過要放民20年前就經過內政部的公立放民審議委內審議原則通過放民 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11914.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11942.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那後來因為其他的因素這個放臨就停下來停下來20年所以這次是重新檢視當年已經審查通過的個案來試辦那事實上準備了很久將近一年的時間我說三個月是因為都已經進行的相關都已經有名冊照冊什麼都有了所以現在只是要進行相關的分割等等所以三個月是OK的 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11942.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11962.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我今天來講對這個政策我是樂觀其成因為從921討治颱風之後從2002年到2008年工地放領其實是陸續的停辦到現在所以就像你剛才所提到這20年那在宜蘭的話我坦白講這個先不說是否是因為選舉或是政策的一個特別的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11963.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11989.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
一個選舉的規劃那我是說像南投縣的話其實有許多還期待著就是公立放嶺政策或者像是相關的林場或是像是竹山的瑞竹鼎林大安合作社台中南投至少有11000公頃將近8000餘戶那我想知道在規劃上在未來南投公立放嶺的一個規劃跟啟程或是相關的計畫如何因為我不希望是只有宜蘭而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11991.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12014.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
報告委員我剛剛講說是事辦事辦是挑以前已經核准的那這裡放零的部分包括平地耕地還有山坡地還有養殖用地甚至園墾農各式各樣的樣態不同那我想這個主辦機關是內政部那內政部自然他們會根據他們的規劃那麼去考量我想這個是內政部會有所討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12015.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12030.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那沒關係因為其實您是政務委員那其實對於這個議題你也關心許久啊那所以說不要說是在宜蘭那我也希望說同樣在您在督導的業務來講在南投縣那其實許多的農民他們也在期待的看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12031.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12044.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
宜蘭縣的這個政策出來的時候事辦政策出來的時候就有許多的民眾農民來問我因為我地方的區域立委啊那他們就會說那南投的相關的工地放零什麼時候會開始來進行那我們同時也必須要對民眾來進行回應說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12046.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12065.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為是適用不同的法規他每個機關每個用地是不同的法規平地是平地那所以說目前來講的話這工地放棄就只有宜蘭蘇澳的這一件有他的法規的就已經可以來進行那未來有沒有第二階段其他法規可能要再去中整所以所以針對宜蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12065.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12082.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
不會內政部是針對這件事辦之後他會他的衡量是不是有一些法規要修正等等才進一步我想可能你可以向內政部去了解那我還是要麻煩陳主委因為你對南投也有幫忙啦那個開閉颱風 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12083.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12108.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那我也希望說您是政務委員的身份也能夠幫忙南投農民而不只是在宜蘭那因為內政部的話他們現在的話整個心思都在是不是改中正路中山路連我的母校中正大學都可能都有受到波及的可能性啊所以我坦白講工地範圍的話也是內政部主管的業務那如果可以的話麻煩您用政務委員的身份能夠盡量的來協助讓我們南投能夠早日有工地範圍的一個示範或好成績啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12111.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12127.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
繼續去了解相關的法規目前的適用的狀況那有需要調整有需要修正有需要整理的我會督促內政部來辦理好 謝謝那最後的話這時間我再補充就是公共風險採購案的話在目前來講碳排係數跟管理規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12128.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12144.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
是不是能夠有針對各縣市來去做一個連結或是包括各縣市能夠做配合以及包括是否規定廠商要提供碳排的報告那目前所做的這個提供報告的比例 產業的比例以及說碳足跡是否納入評選的標準跟時程 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12146.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12160.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那同時碳足跡的一個資料庫的建置還有綠色材料優先採購以及對中小企業的輔導及補助機制因為時間有限所以再麻煩工程會能夠用書面的方式再提供一個本席好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12171.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12194.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 謝謝 現在登記諮詢委員均已發言完畢做以下決定報告諮詢到完畢委員廖先祥所提書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請行政院公共工程委員會儘速以書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12196.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12199.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
本日會議做以下結論討論事項個案均另定期繼續審查本日會議結束 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12223.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12224.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這裏是建築中心 |