| IVOD_ID |
167322 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167322 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-29T09:34:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-29T09:49:32+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/58229044bac95a884c6ec9d1b425c2ad6bf384bcbb560abaef4d1ce49928203b47990b0cb07845b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪孟楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:34:37 - 09:49:32 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員蔡其昌等19人、(三)委員賴惠員等23人、(四)委員李昆澤等18人、(五)委員洪孟楷等20人、(六)委員林倩綺等23人及(七)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人分別擬具「發展觀光條例部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員牛煦庭等16人擬具「發展觀光條例第二條、第四十二條之一及第五十五條條文修正草案」案及(九)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「發展觀光條例增訂第六十六條之一條文草案」案。
二、邀請交通部部長就「115年度交通部及所屬單位預算未審竣對桃園鐵路地下化、花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化、嘉義市區鐵路高架化、嘉義縣市鐵路高架化延伸、臺南市區鐵路地下化、觀光雙輪驅動方案等計畫及各單位業務各項交通建設推動之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【本次會議僅進行詢答；開會事由一第(一)案及第(六)案至第(九)案如經院會復議，則不予審查】） |
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好 主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長還有我們觀光署陳署長請陳部長及陳署長 |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
部長好部長本席開宗明義先強調我認為說全台灣大家交通建設都應該要建立生活圈讓交通更方便這是我們共同目標交通沒有最好只有更好但是現在本席看到跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
31.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
59.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
交通部長跟前任部長我們賀承鄧部長也報導直接寫說前交長槓現任那期待公開的討論我不知道說這個陳部長你有沒有感覺到跟前任的部長有這個對槓隔空對槓的感覺完全沒這個感覺完全沒有但是感覺你們沒有在聚焦因為賀承鄧前部長他講的是所謂宜蘭高鐵的一個部分那也講到是說其實現在的鐵道局並沒有把 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
60.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
85.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
所謂的宜蘭直鐵台鐵的一個規劃納入這個評估考量所以可行性評估會變成是一個很龐大的一個建設但是可能偉大甩不掉而且並沒有辦法解決宜蘭人通勤或者是說往返台北的需求那不要說前部長跟現任部長互槓啊張景生前政委他在他的臉書你有沒有看 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
108.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我没有仔细看到你没有看到脸书但是行政院院长说他每一篇的脸书都有看所以很显然我们部长比院长还要更公务繁忙不过这也不是重点重点在于是说行政院院长就讲是说我没有加他好友所以你没有加好友那没有问题但是行政院院长讲是说他都把张景深政委的意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
109.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
121.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
轉達給我們交通部部長陳士凱那來 請教一下現在既然院長也已經交辦給你了那賀成旦直接在 張景生直接在他臉書上講說宜蘭高鐵會是史詩級災難4000億解決不了交通問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
127.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
143.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
部長怎麼回應報告委員其實高鐵跟紙鐵的這個議題紙鐵的議題已經討論差不多有一二十年的時間並不是說這個議題沒有拿出來討論我想賀成部長應該也相當的清楚因為我現在在問張景生張景生說史詩級災難並且張景生講說民進黨的高官們都紛紛私下跟他講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
150.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
172.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
張景深政委你說的對啊宜蘭高鐵不可行我不曉得是哪些高官們跟他說啦但是當時在決定從直鐵轉換為高鐵的過程當中張景深前政委當時長期在行政院擔任政務委員他應該也很清楚整個過程那為什麼他會說他不了解這個我就不曉得不是 他沒有說他不了解他直接講說這是史詩級災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
175 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
191.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以現在是怎樣在民進黨政府裡面當官的人都不能講真話那辭官之後退休了無事一聲清就可以真話就滿天飛包委員我覺得鐵路的建設包括您很關心的您選區裡面的一些輕軌建設等等這些都是很專業的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
192.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我相信專業啊所以我現在才想請教張景生也好或是說前交通部長賀承旦也好現在都講出來說認為說這是不可行沒有辦法解決問題我開宗明義講是說我們全台各縣市的人都有資格有最好的交通品質但是怎麼樣做那現在就變成是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
237.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
大家認為是花了四千億沒有辦法解決問題而且甚至連民進黨的宜蘭縣長候選人在他臉書上貼說要支持宜蘭高鐵下面都有很多支持者講啊都在臉書上講是說他支持他我是民進黨支持者但是我反對宜蘭高鐵那就代表是說政府的決策跟現在宜蘭人的想法訴求可能是有落差的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
238.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
261.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
報告委員來 部長我所看到的宜蘭縣議會大部分的民意代表其實是支持宜蘭高鐵的方案那宜蘭的立法委員也表達過他支持宜蘭高鐵的方案甚至宜蘭縣政府其實也有表達過他們支持宜蘭高鐵的方案所以前交通部長賀承旦的聲音或是前政委張景生的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
288.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他們不重要還是說他們就不夠專業他們的聲音我們都很重視他們也都在政府部門做過事所以應該很清楚政府部門在做這些決策的過程當中有很嚴謹而且專業的討論過程就是因為這樣所以說本席才好奇說為什麼會有那麼大的落差來 不好意思那個鄭董事長台鐵鄭董事長我知道因為您之前這個腳受傷特別請教不過我就請教您一個專業的問題因為我覺得在現場您真的很有資格發個言 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
293.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
301.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
過去您是高鐵的董事長現在是台鐵的董事長本席不是要給你陷阱題 您放心但是本席很認真的要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
302.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
323.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
過去高鐵評估說所謂的宜蘭高鐵或是說現在有人講是說如果宜蘭可以直鐵讓台鐵用新的自強號普悠瑪或是更好的這個列車來服務能夠有比較低的成本但是能夠快速的服務讓宜蘭人能夠也有很快速整點多班次的一個交通工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
324.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
340.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
您覺得哪一個方案會是你站在有擔任過高鐵董事長跟台鐵董事長兩個評估那你現在台鐵董事長您覺得勒有沒有在更重啟或是討論的空間而不是像現在一味的就講說不管什麼聲音我就是高鐵我就是要硬幹到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
341.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
362.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
而且目前的這個規劃的方向應該是我是贊成的就是說高鐵 讓高鐵直接到宜蘭去這樣的話呢整個我們高鐵目前的這個好的品質啊這個一路到這個宜蘭那鄭董事長有沒有聽到前政委張景生在他臉書上直接講說如果說高鐵到宜蘭會是史詩級災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
363.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
386.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我有聽說 但是我沒有很詳細去了解他講的那您認同這個話嗎至少我目前看來是這個我不認同這樣一個講法你不認同 好 來 部長所以現在就變成是一個非常大的落差因為張景深政委他直接在臉書上講他講說給行政院院長了然後行政院院長也說交辦給你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
387.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然後馬政委也講說你不要再賴了啊院長都有看到啊那甚至講說這個民進黨的高官們每一個人都支持啊那為什麼會有這樣的落差民眾的感受我不曉得哪些高官們支持哪些高官因為你那天那個婚禮沒有去嘛對不對看起來那個婚禮是你沒有去嘛不然可能張景深就直接跟你討論了嘛如果張景深政委可以再明確一點說哪些人是反對高鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
436.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
宜蘭案我覺得或許可以再來討論但他沒有講得很清楚這我不曉得他所謂的史詩級的災難我想是不是史詩級的災難這個有點形容詞啦這是形容詞再來針對他所說的那個內容我看報導的說法一他所說的金額很像說錯了不是4000億是3500多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
439.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
467.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第二他的公里數也說錯了他說只有40公里其實是60公里我不曉得他所說的依據是什麼但我建議因為交通是很專業的討論跟評估政府不會亂花錢就是因為交通是專業的討論跟評估所以才會看到說連民進黨任內的高官不管是政委或是交通部長曾經擔任都會跳出來反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
484.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那就代表說這樣子一個討論其實是連民進黨內部都沒有辦法說服自己的那如果說連民進黨政府過去擔任高官的人都沒有辦法說服自己你很難能夠讓人民放心是說這樣子的一個工程會不會能夠達到你原本預計的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
485.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我想這就是現在的癥結點報告員這其實經過了最後當然還是要交通部來去做一個拍板或說你們做出的不管可行性評估綜合規劃等等來後續的研議但更重要的是為什麼會現在一個建設出來之後反而會讓很多人而且重點我一直強調這一些並不是在野黨他們過去都是你在擔任民進黨政府時候的高官來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
513.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
542.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為今天還是要討論觀光我還是就叫一下觀光啦來兩位這個局長跟董事長可以先請回來觀光署署長本席在三個月前討論交通委員會的時候討論我們所謂觀光逆差那時候我就已經有提醒過就今年看起來有可能會突破觀光逆差破千萬那那個時候我也一直一而再再提醒是說你的觀光報告真的不要粉飾太平要看到我們現在的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
543.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
562.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但很顯然的我覺得現在跟民眾感受差很多我就先救教一下我們在這一次公布出來所謂的這個觀光國旅的產值2024因為現在我們只有統計到2024年嘛113年嘛對不對國旅產值我們現在全年有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
569.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
585.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
目前 前年 觀光署的非常華麗的報告 華麗的數據5158 這是1月到9月的部分113年 5158億多少人次 多少旅次 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
598.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
2.2 2.2 2.2億2.2億屢次怎麼算的國人會很訝異啊因為你講是說這個產值跟屢次都屢創新高比疫情前都還要好那國人就會好奇啊明明跟我們大家的感受不一樣國屢感覺是比較冷門國屢是相對來講比較弱勢而且現在觀光利差破千萬那你怎麼算出來說有2.2億屢次屢次怎麼算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
620.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
646.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個因為長時間的調查所以我是不是請我們企劃組組長來跟大家說明因為那個真的很認真 您的定義是什麼組長 你真的對你的業務沒有那麼的純熟我只能這樣講你的屢次是個人為了觀光 休閒 商務等目的從日常生活地點到外地活動再返回原地算一次完整的旅程這叫屢次 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
647.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
656.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以你把觀光 休閒 商務等相關活動都變成履次那這樣就是會灌水 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
659.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
672.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
來 我們今天的部會我知道有些部會都是外縣市對不對你今天外縣市的部會來立法院開會今天開完會之後再回你外縣市你也被觀光產值你也被觀光產值納入一個屢次這個是依照國際的統計標準而且是歷年來都是這樣子統計之前 部長之前並沒有這樣統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
687.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
700.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
屢次是 你們為了要現在部長 真的之前你沒有刻意去講這樣的一個數據你也沒有講這樣的一個產值其實數據都有 只是有沒有被凸顯出來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
704.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
728.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
部長本席就是因為非常重視所以我才會說看到這樣的一個數字是不是我請觀光署您說過去沒有這樣的我請觀光署提出過去10年的數據給委員部長本席就是因為很重視這樣的數據而且重點在於是你的觀光逆差那個時候我們就提到了就說不要美化國旅的數字國旅現在有很多的問題但是它不能寫假的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
729.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
753.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
當然不能寫假的但是你也不能去美化數據你也不能去你也不能去講是說部長你今天部長本席現在最重要在於是當國人大家都覺得是說我們的觀光有很大的問題我們都要努力的時候當我們觀光署居然拿出一個數據講是說這個是一個比疫情前還要好的一個數據五千多億全國華然啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
776.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
只有講是說我們什麼時候我們的國內觀光可以到五千多億然後就有兩億多次的屢次數據是依據事實不是依據感覺數據是依據事實所以我可以請報告署提出過去十年的數據就是因為依據事實本席才要在這邊再提出來就說這絕對不是一個觀光的屢次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
777.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
792.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
今天所有部會上來開會都可以算一個履次然後結果我們 來 我再請教平均每人消費多少錢2323元你的第一名是誰你的第一名是什麼項目參議 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
799.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
815.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你第一名花費在餐飲最多第二名花費在交通最多那不就是一樣嗎你今天國人我所有我就不要講其他就部會首長來到立法院開會都可以算一個履次然後你部會首長來立法院吃便當也可以算成是我們觀光產值 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
816.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
845.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
報告委員觀光產值當然有五千多億但是有多少根本就是國人日常生活這個是主計總署所核定的這就是日常生活這根本就不是旅行產值過去到現在為止一直都是這麼統計方式部長如果說你真的要這樣講的話那我就必須要跟你很直接的講就是說這樣子的一個計算方法跟我們國人以及跟你所謂的觀光就完全落差太大這個我們可以來討論委員如果有更好的計算方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
847.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
875.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
連部會首長來立法院開會吃個便當都可以算到觀光產值的時候那我們到底我們的觀光可以有多少產量這才是重點啊你會覺得無奈本席更無奈國內的旅客更無奈國內的旅行社更無奈所有的民眾都覺得是說當我們的國旅已經變成是低迷的時候沒想到我們觀光署給我們的一個公開數據是五千多億創新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
883.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那生活在什麼地方啊平清時空所以本席才會講是說我們要針對問題我們要針對問題來解決問題並不是美化數字是沒有錯這個我接受謝謝謝謝侯孟楷召委交通委員會啊是史詩級 |