| IVOD_ID |
16731 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16731 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-04T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-04T13:24:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:53:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc49a83869710b50b7ad9f551ce5fa921ffdab1a38f0d348c0ee49674e148d9fc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】
【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 13:24:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1118.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1121.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
你在耍我是不是?什麼?你在耍我? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1831.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1855.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們現在繼續開會我們先介紹道場委員 應邀列席官員黃國昌委員 翁曉琳委員 王玉民委員 王鴻薇委員 張志倫委員 還有王逸川委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1857.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1877.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
校園副秘書長 王副秘書長法務部部長 鄭部長法務部矯正署 周署長衛生福利部政次 呂健德政次其餘未及介紹列席代表請參與名單不在主意介紹並列入公報記錄本日會議議程分別排定進行專 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1878.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1904.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
提報告並備諮詢及並案審查委員賴氏寶等20人凝聚中華民國刑法第286條修正草案等11案會議程序依例先進行提案說明及報告現在進行委員提案說明每位發言時間3分鐘請問有沒有哪位委員要進行提案說明是好所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1907.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1919.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那個王宏威委員先簽到的那就先請王委員好那再麻煩王委員一併代表說明國民黨的黨團提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1928.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1947.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
謝謝主席我們各位委員及與會的官員我們都知道在凱凱案被虐死之後在社會其實引發了非常非常多的關注那麼依據衛生福利部保護服務司公佈的兒少保護統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1948.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1956.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
在2019年到2023年我國兒少受虐的合計人數從11113人增加到12646人增幅13.8%其中未滿6歲受虐人數從2244人增加到2868人增加的幅度更高達27.8%顯示我國的兒虐問題惡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1976.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1989.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
而虐的人数逐年增加那么真的非常有必要用加重虐待儿童的刑期来发挥我们怎么样去保护我们的儿童能够安全平安的长大 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1990.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2005.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
而我們在第一時間我們看到公共政策的網路參與平台也有提案那麼短短不到一個月有13萬公民富裕針對虐童、致殘、致死者加重刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2007.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2014.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這樣的引發公憤那當然我們的立法機構跟行政機構當然應該要對所有我們廣大的公民的一個提議必須要提出適當的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2022.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2043.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是呢 非常遺憾的是 在這個過程裡面 法務部沒有接受而且呢 是在整個的公民團體 以及在我們立法院一直在召開專題會議之下呢 法務部才改口說 針對凌虐兒少自死罪是否增定死刑 會通盤檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2045.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2065.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
但是呢我們覺得我們沒有辦法在一直等待這個行政單位一直在遲遲沒有辦法修法所以在去年的時候事實上國民黨團一共有15個修法的提案那麼但是可以看到我們的執政黨也就是民進黨團提案數是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2068.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2085.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那麼其中在國民黨團裡面呢有非常多提案就是要把死刑納入刑法的第286條修法凌虐兒童致死要處以死刑或者是無期徒刑而今年國民黨團也正式提出黨團版那麼在我們刑法265條第5項針對未滿7歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2092.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2111.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
致人於死者處死刑或無期徒刑致終傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑我們希望藉此的修法能夠保障兒少的福利能夠伸張兒少司法的正義那麼未來我們也會繼續的努力好 以上好 謝謝那下一位我們請王育民委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2121.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2149.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
就第三案及第八案兩案一併說明 謝謝好 謝謝主席各位同仁大家好在我擔任立委的時候我從第八屆開始我就提出虐待兒童致死應該最高可以處以死刑到現在我第十一屆重返立法院這樣的主張我還是繼續堅持雖然過去在提出相關法案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2150.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2169.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
都被司法單位打回票覺得不可以再增訂死刑但是我認為法律是服務人民法律應該與時俱進從最近的虐童案大家已經看到了大家對於六歲以下沒有自我保護能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2170.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2184.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
被大人活活虐待致死的孩童所有的人民都憤怒也覺得不應該但是孩子的司法正義有沒有得到伸張並沒有在目前中華民國的刑法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2186.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2205.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
強盜致死有可以最高到死刑但是你凌虐一個孩子致死沒有死刑請問我們真的有給孩子公平正義嗎所以今天我為什麼提了兩個修法的法條就是要讓法務部表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2206.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2222.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你今天到底要修在286還是修在271因為當過去我提286的時候他就說不可以在286這不符合比例原則罪行相當原則所以感覺好像應該修在271但又提出了271之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2224.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2242.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他可能又會用別的理由來拒絕我認為法務部不要再逃避這樣的一個問題前陣子公民團體超過138,995人他們提議就是虐待兒童致死應該最高可以到死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2243.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2268.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個就是強大的民意今天我看到法務部的報告他說之後還會再開專家學者會議再來研議請問你要研議到何時這一題應該早就要研議出來了吧所以我希望法務部不要再逃避你的責任這個也不要變成是你推脫的藉口今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2269.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2285.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國民黨的立委多人提出版本包括黨團提出版本事實上我們只有一個目標就是這一些弱小的孩子他的確需要受到更大的保護而當有大人你用凝虐的方式你用殘忍的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2286.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2303.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
導致這個孩子失去他的生命你必須付出相當的代價而這個代價就是我們應該要在刑法裡面徵定凌虐幼童至死最高可以處以死刑用最嚴厲的法律來制止 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2304.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2317.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這一些不良的人繼續去傷害我們的孩子所以請大家支持我們繼續修法我們這次希望修法可以通過我們還給孩子應有的司法上的公平正義 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請張志倫委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2333.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2356.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位觀眾 早近年來 國內屢見針對幼童施以凝虐之重大刑案不罰年僅僅1、2歲之嬰幼兒遭長期虐待 最終致死 令人痛心疾首儘管現行法在第286條已經針對兒童凝虐行為明文入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2357.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2365.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
並在去年修法加重其刑至二分之一但實務上仍有難以有效赫子此類似的案件一再重演 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2366.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2386.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
顯見現行法制對防止嚴重兒童虐童案的嚇阻效果仍有不足也難以回應社會對於加重刑責保護幼童生命權的高度期待根據衛福部的統計112年全國受虐兒少案件多達12646人其中未滿6歲者 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2390.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2408.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
擊打2868人佔比將近23%年紀越小越沒有自我保護與表達能力如果無法及時發現常常淪落為長期凌虐的受害對象最終釀成不可挽回的憾事尤其112年12月24號的凱凱案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2411.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2433.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
為典型 僅一歲的男童遭托保母凌虐致死 引發社會強烈憤慨之後更有近14萬人在公共政策網路平台連署主張虐童致死應處於死刑或無期徒刑 並不得假釋足以證明人民對於強化兒少保護的強烈期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2434.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2463.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
本席針對刑法第271條及286條提案增定加重處罰之規定對於未滿7歲之人若以凝虐方式致死處以死刑或無期徒刑處以無刑徒刑者明文不得假釋並蓬佈提高對於未滿18歲兒少虐待之基本刑責致重傷致死結果處罰之標準應符合比例原則提升整體法律威嚇力 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2464.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2481.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以我們這次所修正的條文除參考聯合國兒童權利公約與公民與政治權利國際公約的精神外更充分體現我國政府對於保障兒童生命權身心發展與人性尊嚴之責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2483.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2505.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
希望透過此事修法建立社會對於兒女凝蓉忍之共識並有效嚇子不法使每一位孩子皆能在安全與尊重中成長茁壯敬請各位委員支持本修法修正提案盡速完成立法程序落實大家對兒童權益的保障謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2508.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2525.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好謝謝我們接續進行機關報告請機關代表針對專案內容及法案一併報告尋答時才綜合詢答每位發言時間三分鐘我們請先請司法院王副秘書長報告然後接下來我們請法務部政部長報告好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2534.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2552.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席各位委員各位先生大家早安本院奉要列席報告深感榮幸之報告如下敬請指教第一點 教化可能性社會復歸可能性和死刑量刑的關係教化可能性它就是社會復歸可能性的上位概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2554.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2571.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
僵化可能性它并不是一个精神医学心理学或者是法律固有的概念那实务上鉴定人对于法院这部分的嘱托他会分别鉴定被告矫制的可能性再社会化的可能性还有再犯的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2573.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2599.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那量刑前的社會調查和責任能力鑑定它是不一樣的責任能力的鑑定呢它重點在判斷被告行為當時是否因為精神障礙欠缺了辨識能力或是控制能力那量刑前的社會調查呢它是重在發覺有沒有影響被告犯罪的中遠程犯罪原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2600.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2620.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
也就是說回顧被告過去的面向然後協助法院判斷被告日後的社會復歸可能性那這個部分是掌望被告未來的面向再來根據司法院重大矚目刑事案件量刑前調查的評估參考手冊的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2622.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2642.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
社會復歸可能性作為鑑定的事項那量刑前的這個調查它的量刑因子呢基本上它還是要以刑法第57條第456款關於被告的生活狀況、自視程度、品性作為核心 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2643.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2661.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那量刑前的社會調查雖然可以提供法院全面的視角讓法院可以更慎重周全的判斷個案的量刑因子還有適用刑法第59條的必要但是並不是直接把刑法第59條的適用全權委託量刑前的社會調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2663.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2681.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
被告影響陳述部分呢這主要是起源於美國法治這一類的陳述呢它可能令人難以承受或者是有偏見或者是具有一定的煽動性所以說在程序上呢它是限於量刑階段的進行那實體的部分呢它只限在 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2681.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2702.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
被害人個人特徵跟犯罪結果對於被害人家庭成員所造成的情感衝擊那這部分在我國法治呢它的相關規定請參考書面它主要是使被害人或其家屬可以陳述意見或者是就科型的範圍來表示意見那第二個部分呢有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2703.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2720.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
刑法第286條修法草案的部分 詳如書面本院尊重貴院及相關主管機關意見的形成 以上主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天奉邀列席並代表本部報告並備諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2733.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2760.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
自報告如下進行指教有關專題報告法官如何判死及死刑良刑準則部分在憲法法庭作成一三年度憲判至八號判決之後最高法院一對死刑案件涉及五十刑法五十七條良刑是有有說明法律上的一個意見必須考慮一般情況及犯罪情況新化第五十七條良刑審酌事項及第五十九條酌量減刑之規定賦予法院個案裁量權 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2761.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2785.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
對於適用國民法官審判程序的案件本部首署檢察機關經落實提出量刑的一個證據使個案都能符合程序及實體證據並求取充分評價是適當行動以懲不罰對於量刑不當的個案亦將依法提起上訴就計以罰罪行相當性捍衛被害人的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2786.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2809.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
第二 有關病案審查內同相關刑法修正的查案部分感謝各位委員長期對兒童行者的關心及重視刑法第286條進來經過108年及去年二度修正新增了第三項至第五項的處罰規定並擴大本罪適用年齡範圍以遏止病重罰兒童少年身心受淋漓的步伐 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2810.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2838.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
二行目前本部已將內統行者納入刑法研修會議討論議案聽取審辯學及機關代表意見並於近期召開修法研商會議廣納各界意見通盤檢討相關各罪及刑法假釋的規定本部贊成兒童欠缺自我保護能力對內統致死之被告應予嚴懲重罰對各界修法建立經極為重視也尊重各位委員提案的修法內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2839.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2868.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
更可考慮在符合比例原則罪者相當的前提之下對您內的方式殺害未滿7歲兒童自犯罪被害人提高刑法提高處罰刑度或調整假釋規定達成惡質內同犯刑的目的實踐而少的司法正義充分保障生命身體的法益有關各位委員草案版本有關條件構成要見刑度與刑法總則是關聯部分敬請參酌本部書面意見以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2869.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2875.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好 謝謝部長那其餘提出書面報告機關有沒有需要口頭補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2877.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2903.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好那沒有的話就案代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答由於詢答後接續進行法案審查所以我們依例本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時間得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2909.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2927.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
謝謝主席,馬上有請法務部部長司法院副秘書長好,馬上部長副秘書長委員早安兩位好,今天召會所排的這個主題我相信兩位都不陌生,針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2930.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2957.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
沒有辦法有保護自我能力的小朋友遭到虐待並進一步發生死亡或者是重傷的結果社會上面以凱凱案發出了非常強烈的怒吼這不是今天才發生的事情過去這段時間我相信社會各界很多NGO團體甚至非常多的媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2959.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2965.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
站出來齊聚在台北地方法院的門口為了要關心凱凱案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2967.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2992.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
大家都站出來發聲怒吼也有立法委員跑到台北地方法院加入這個抗議的行列表達人民的憤怒我覺得這都是公民表達意見健康的行為但重要的是當這些悲劇發生了以後我們的主管機關應對到底是什麼第一時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2994.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3008.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
民眾超過13萬將近14萬的公民在政策平台提出這樣的建議法務部第一時間是不予採納應該沒錯吧這公共政策的平台有寫錯法務部的意見嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3011.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3030.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
呃的確是有勾到那個不予採納的現象但是我們的內文我們是有把各那個廣納社會意見今天還是不予採納嗎我們現在是採納我們有今天採納了沒有我們就是尊重我們各委員的一個提案所以保護部沒有立場我們有自己的版本我們有在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3030.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3051.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們在那個昨天跟明天會做一個研修的一個會議昨天跟明天會做研修的會議對 昨天有提到刑法的修正小組的一個會議那今天有在一個延伸的一個什麼時候版本要提出來我們盡速提出來什麼叫盡速提出來 今天就要審啊要等你們嗎那另外因為我們那個修法的一個要等你們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3052.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3075.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
需要等你們嗎 請針對問題回答 今天要不要等你們是不是可以 我們可以提出我們一個法案來當然可以 大家都在等啊 東西在哪裡那另外因為我們有在不好意思啊 請你針對問題回答好不好我問你東西在哪裡 然後你跟我講另外明天還要開會嘛 明天有那個所以今天要不要等你們今天要等你們嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3078.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3106.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
如果委員的話我們會提出我們一個版本因為我想這個經過今天會提出來是不是明天有一個研修會對嘛所以我在一直問你今天要不要等你們嘛我剛才一直在講說5號明天有研修會所以今天要不要等你們今天就要審啦然後你跟我說你明天要開會昨天就開跟明天有兩次的一個會議是嘛所以今天要不要等你們要審檢變選嘛是今天要不要等你們你還是沒有回答問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3108.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3130.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
請問我的問題有很刁鑽嗎你說你昨天有開會明天要開會我們今天要審法案我說今天要不要等你們部長沒有立場喔委員如果要等我們法務部的一個研修的一個草案的意見那當然我們是很樂見這是拖多久啦從公共政策平台開始到現在多久啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3137.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3164.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
明天要開會那今天要不要等你們今天我再問一個問題所有委員這麼多委員的提案有沒有哪一個版本是法務部贊成的因為我看你們的書面報告我看了半天啊每一個版本你們全部都有批評那我看完了以後就剩下一個問題每一個版本法務部全部都有意見全部都批評那大家再問那法務部的版本在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3165.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3182.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
今天委員提案的版本有沒有任何一個版本法務部是贊成的有還是沒有各委員的一個版本你們都尊重嘛我們會當作你們研議的嘛有沒有任何一個版本是你們贊成的有還是沒有有還是沒有我們會重整各委員的一個版本是是是 東西在哪裡現在在還在研議嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3195.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3209.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我聽你講這種話講很多次了啦大家聽不下去了啦你的立法方向就是要嚴懲重罰你的立法方向嚴懲重罰你的版本在哪裡我一直問你版本在哪裡所以繼續研議嘛公共政策平台到現在多久啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3215.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3222.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
你今天在這邊還在打官腔我沒有打官腔齁這個委員我們也就在你沒有打官腔把東西交出來嘛對那你把東西交出來嘛你講形容詞講空洞的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3229.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3233.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
每一個委員的版本你全部都罵叫你自己拿版本出來沒有關係啦 今天你在這邊講的大家聽得下去 聽不下去每一個公民自己有自己的判斷啦好 來 下一個請示法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3254.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3260.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
請你先停一下好不好主席請他先停一下好不好現在是我的質詢時間欸我問的問題他不回答然後他在那邊故故事的講你要開記者會請你等一下用法務部出去開記者會跟全民交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3277.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3292.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我問的問題你有沒有回答還是在浪費我的時間透過直播大家都有一把尺可以看啦我們時間先暫停所以大家先冷靜下來那我們現在再繼續開始沒有主席我只要求一個最基本的規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3293.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3312.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
現在是尋答捏我問問題他不回答在那邊自顧自講他自己的部長麻煩一下因為是備詢麻煩就委員的問題去你找我部長要開記者會看你要講多久隨便你啦在那邊浪費我的質詢時間來請司法院我收到一個澄清喔是凱凱的網路爸媽澄清書啊他們有提出很具體修法的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3324.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3340.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
但是第二點 請你看一下他們現在訴求啊廢除死刑一字決現在該怎麼辦 從司法院的觀點台灣是一個憲政民主的國家嘛現在人民發出怒吼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3342.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3370.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
這些爸媽團體要求要廢除死刑一字決啊來 司法院可不可以告訴全體台灣的公民憲法法庭說死刑各審期一定要一字決那現在人民發出怒吼說要廢除該怎麼做告訴大家該怎麼做因為這些爸爸媽媽大家很痛心看不下去大法官的這個要求提出了這樣的訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3372.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3393.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
台灣的人民有權利知道面對這種自己擴權的大法官現在人民能夠怎麼辦還是沒有辦法大法官說了算你們都拿我沒皮條立法院乖乖聽話人民不滿你們也沒有任何的手段可以做來 請教司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3394.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3406.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那個報告委員齁那個因為委員所垂詢的這個問題已經涉及到我國那個憲政各機關職權這個部分司法院尊重奇怪憲法法庭不就在司法院嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3408.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3434.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
如果司法院沒有辦法回答那是誰要回答 行政院回答嗎還是總統賴清德出來回答這跟考試院監察院絕對沒關係啦因為有關於大法官所做的這一個判決呢就是依照我國上來的那個釋字185還有那個645的那個解釋它是有一定的那個效力的所以就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3435.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3449.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
呃 委員所垂詢的就是說這個不是我垂詢的啊是這一群爸媽垂詢的啊他們沒有機會站在這邊請教司法院所以我們作為民意代表有機會站在這邊請教所以我幫他們請教現在該怎麼辦誰能夠怎麼辦誰拿這些大法官有皮條請教司法院我接到陳情我一定要幫他們問啦這不是一兩個人欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3465.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3492.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
是一群憤怒的爸媽他們提出這樣的訴求要我們立法委員想辦法我也在想辦法該怎麼辦憲法法庭在司法院這沒有問題嘛所以我今天拜託司法院給這些陳情的爸媽示意該怎麼辦他們能夠做什麼還是回家抱著棉被哭就可以了來請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3496.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3525.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
委員這剛剛已經回覆過了因為你沒有回覆啊我請教的是司法院說這些憤怒的人民該怎麼辦回家抱著棉被哭嗎司法院的立場就是尊重那個大法官所做的那個解釋啊對嘛但是人民憤怒嘛人民無法接受嘛也不想接受嘛大家都在問啊我國憲法什麼時候給大法官這麼高的權利啊手伸得這麼深啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3528.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3549.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
我之前已經請教過司法院了全世界有哪一個國家要求死刑一字決要各省級全部都要一字決你講個立法例出來給大家聽嘛大家看不懂啊不要說他們看不懂連我都看不懂啊這個判決出來第一時間我就問這個問題啦現在是他們說怎麼樣就怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3555.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3560.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
立法院拿他們沒皮條這些憤怒的爸媽也拿他們沒皮條他們現在是以為他們是台灣民主憲政的太上皇人家提這樣的陳情出來啦現在我們這些掌握權力的人怎麼面對怎麼面對我該怎麼回答這些爸媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3587.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3614.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
對不起 你的陳情完全沒道理 大法官說了算我們立法委員沒有辦法 司法院也不知道該怎麼辦就是他們說了算我希望喔今天在這邊的質詢這一些爸媽所提出來的疑問所有參與這個憲判制8號的憲法法庭的大法官我希望他們都能看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3615.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3625.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我也希望他們能夠發揮所謂憲法守護者的精神勇敢的站出來告訴這些爸媽你們能夠怎麼辦你們能夠拿我們怎麼辦今天的法律案我不知道趙委員等不等 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3638.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3664.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
但我代表台灣民眾黨黨團表達立場我們支持 如果今天要出委員會 就讓他出委員會好 謝謝接下來我們請黃寶昌委員代理主席請問 王委員你有空嗎 可以代理主席可以嗎 我在想你們委員在 這樣比較有理由再麻煩王委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3678.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3682.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好請吳宗憲委員質詢我們請副秘書長部長還有衛福部次長委員長安 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3697.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3725.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我先請教部長以及複密延續綱的問題很簡單的問題因為之前有某一位民進黨的委員說我們講說這個世界上沒有一個國家法律的體力是要求所有省級包括是省法律省一致決沒有這樣的體力那這位立委在國會的殿堂欺騙全國人民拿著他法律的專業的外衣來欺騙全國人民說 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3726.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3739.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
什麼美國陪審團就有這樣子的做法但是我現在請問的問題是有沒有哪一個國家的法律體力是要求事實審以及法律審所有法官對於死刑判決要一致決來 複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3753.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3781.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
你們不要再跟我聚焦什麼陪審團怎麼樣不用再講那個啦我們就講個最簡單事實審法律審的法官要一致決哪一個國家要求全部的那個體力是要這樣就了解那個歐洲的部分似乎沒有這樣子的就是要求一致決那但是美國就是有一些那個那美國聯邦的最高法院呢我現在講的是事實審加法律審喔你不要再給我聚焦在哪一個因為我覺得有一些人現在都會偷換概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3783.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3797.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
好 那我跟你講 之前那個張大法官他也講得很清楚啦 他是留學美國的 他講得非常清楚在美國的法律省並沒有這樣的要求所以剛剛黃國昌委員才會在這邊跟你們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3798.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3819.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
之前他有來詢問過你們這個世界上有沒有哪一個體力是要求所有的事實審法律審都要一致決那我們這邊得到的是沒有那當時你們回覆的也是沒有那張大法官他說的也是沒有所以我這邊可能先跟你們說明一下那這就是我們一直覺得說政治人物實在不應該隨便的誤導啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3822.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3843.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那我們也很希望說找到是不是有某一個很小國家或怎麼樣他們有自己特殊的體力但是目前為止是沒有那比較世界比較大的或法律較先進的國家我們從制度上面來看並沒有說要求所有的審計全部都要法官要一致決我想這個部分我們想說先說明一下好那再來我請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3844.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3864.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那個司法院黃凌凱被判死刑然後定宴再進行槍決這個變成是現在很多政客拿出來講說我國沒有廢除死刑啊所以有一個人被槍決了我想請問一下這個被判處死刑槍決這件事情跟憲判8有沒有任何關聯性 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3867.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3891.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
沒有嘛 因為他這個是很早年就被判死刑 這跟去年的憲判八這個是沒有關聯性嘛那第二個就是 他其實是對於確定判決的死刑加以執行嘛他並不是說 這個東西就是 他說有執行一個死刑啊所以這個法官說的以自決 這個並不會影響到死刑的判決啊其實我跟你講 這個也是政客在誤導人民嘛那個複密是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3892.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3901.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
死刑確定判決的執行跟法官能不能夠一致決判死刑這應該是兩回事吧或是部長我講的有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3904.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3929.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
現在那個像黃定愷他那個執行的話那是有一致決那現在一致決的話目前都還是有陸續對所以沒有關聯性謝謝部長謝謝複密所以沒有任何關聯性請政客不要再拿這個東西來說一致決這兩個完全無關一個是執行判決確定判決的執行一個是判決兩個是完全不一樣的東西我有時候覺得很辛苦就是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3931.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3958.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這些政客不是不懂 但是他們很喜歡誤導人民拿一些錯誤的觀念來誤導人民這一次其實我覺得我自己對中選會他去沒收了這個公投當然我們心裡是不滿但是現在的中選會他到底是不是當初法律設計要他當作是一個獨立機關他還獨不獨立以及主委的個性我想社會自有公斷他沒收了 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3959.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3968.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
人民的罷免權也沒收了人民的公投權這是我看到現在的中選會而且他的沒收是莫名其妙完全違法他也照幹我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3970.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3998.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
人民要求政府依法行政已經變成是一個很奢侈的請求了現在我看到這些行政機關一個一個變成這樣好那這一次呢中選會他為了要沒收立法院所提出來這個公投法案他甚至在他的新聞稿還寫了什麼他認為大法官的憲判制裡面的一字訣他這個是對於法院組織法的修正一個立法原則的創制行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4000.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4027.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
所以現在連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權啊連中選會都認證大法官在搞立法權啊 複密你們現在大法官的作為已經取代了立法權的功能了耶那這樣子五權分立不是含假的嗎那現在大法官明明是在解釋違憲啊怎麼自己帶頭違憲這是我要跟複密報告那再來我請教複密還有部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4028.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4055.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
因為我們今天有兩個重要的議題一個是什麼叫最嚴重犯罪的情節那我們先談最嚴重犯罪情節因為目前我們要判死刑我們在判決階段有兩大關卡三大啦 剛剛我們講的是一字決就算了再來什麼叫做最嚴重犯罪到目前還是非常的空洞請問複密對於法官已經有一個標準出來了嗎什麼叫最嚴重犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4062.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4074.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這個在憲判八裡頭其實它有非常多具體的例事對 它是例事而已嘛它不是一個原則告訴你要怎麼做它只是什麼例子什麼例子嘛那超過那個例子呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4075.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4104.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那變成說我大法官只能想到五個例子的話那就只有這五個例子嗎他不是一個原則那法官要怎麼判斷什麼叫最嚴重這是如此的空洞還涉及人命那再來另外一個有無教化可能性這也完全空洞啊所以你光是這兩個東西什麼叫做最嚴重什麼叫做有無教化可能性請問一下部長以及複密這兩個東西你要法官們要檢察官們怎麼去判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4109.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4125.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
沒關係 沒辦法回答 就一樣說真的我也不知道該怎麼回答這兩個東西有沒有辦法提出一個標準那這個也是現在這麼多的人民團體一直來跟我們澄清的主因那我之前在幾次公開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4126.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4147.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我以前講過一個就是過去我自己擔任檢察官我們擔任司法官的時候我們只聚焦在構成要件所以我只重視去了解這個人怎麼死的我卻忘記了去思考他們當年是怎麼活的他們在被打死之前他是怎麼樣要求別人饒他一條命 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4148.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4171.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這個法官檢察官都不在乎這些事情但是對這些家屬而言他們最重視的是這個這些人在當年活著的時候他是怎麼樣孝順自己的父母那我們講幾個啦像台南的那兩位被殺死的警官那個土警官跟草警官他們在被殺死之前他們想的是怎麼樣把這些可疑的人或脫逃的人犯把他逮捕歸案他為的是社會安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4172.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4183.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
土城的那個劉警官他在被毒品人口撞死之前他想的是怎麼樣維護那個地方的晚上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4184.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4206.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
治安 安全那你再說像那個施鑿講的那個陳老師他被殺之前他是想說去菜市場買個菜回家煮飯給家裡面的人吃所以他們我們今天當司法官當久了我們覺得我只在乎他是被殺了幾刀 被開了幾槍我只在乎他怎麼死我們完全忘記他當初怎麼活下來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4207.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4230.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
他當時活著的時候怎麼樣孝順自己的家人父母然後怎麼樣對家庭的重要性所以有人被死了以後有那個父母跟我講啊他說那一槍不是打死一個人啊他那一槍打死三個因為這個人是他的獨子他說那一槍打下去之後他跟他先生兩個七十幾歲了人生也無望了所以我常常覺得啦我們都太著重於構成要件的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4231.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4244.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
限縮在那一塊裡面我們忘了忘記去思考這個行為對於社會以及對於家族他造成的危害有多大所以然後我們今天再加上這幾個完全沒有標準的教化可能性以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4245.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4265.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
什麼叫最嚴重之罪這已經讓死刑已經變成是不知道法官不知道怎麼判決然後再加上這個憲判扒下去我覺得所以我們一直說啦這叫實質廢死雖然民進黨一直說沒有什麼我們沒廢死也沒有實質廢死這個名詞但是我想走過司法審判實務的人都會很清楚這個要判死刑我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4266.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4290.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
難如登天啦 這也是回應現在很多民團的一些想法那我們再講啦 就是說 像譬如說這次有一個張介忠 他殺害三個婦人 還把他分屍了或是馬大女學生的姦殺案件就算你認為是最嚴重的犯罪 可是他還是被認為是不是還有教化可能性然後就不停地發回根審 發回根審 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4291.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4307.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以我覺得目前我看到的還是用過於空洞的東西來去要求法官下判決這個規範 這個門檻其實根本就跨越不了那也請大家想一想 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4308.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4321.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
就是你們要知道這些被告你們一直保護他可是其實他當時在現場是多麼堅決一定要要被害人死亡他那個一定要他死還有很多像那個新北戈侯案 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4323.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4349.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
同學都已經制止叫那個行為人不要再殺了他還是繼續砍殺那個小朋友然後他說我今天就是要給他死這個是我們知道的事實我想說大家不要忘記了這一塊我想要再提一個東西就是說我們這段時間虐童的案件其實一直在上升而且上升的很多我想我們今天既然是討論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4351.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4380.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
類同致死的這個法案我想有三個再麻煩你們能夠思考就是說其實我們這個社會還是要多跟民眾對話司法人要多跟民眾對話不要在那個框架裡面但我們一直在框架裡面認為後面是過失致死啊這個不是殺人罪啊所以這個不該有死刑那我們是不是過於被限制在那個框架中那還有就是刑法強盜致死其實還是有死刑的規範這很多委員都有講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4381.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4402.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那所以 俄國法制也有這個東西 不是沒有啊所以可不可以就是說 隨便拿一個這個道理就是說我拒絕跟你們溝通像法務部那時候對於人民的這個要求就是說我們就免談那這個也是不對的邏輯這個委員呈現我們沒有免談 我們這個就是那個是勾選是勾錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4403.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4422.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那連內文我們是有研修 我們要納入研修那個內文 只是大家是沒有去看內文不管怎麼樣 勾對勾錯 但是人民的心裡的而且這次我們把立法方向上是在維為維為就報告了嘛好 謝謝部長 後面有改變 謝謝部長但至少在第一時間讓人民的感覺是你不願意溝通好 那我想喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4424.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4442.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
虐童的統計這個東西 其實我在去年4月17號我在本委員會 我已經要求了法務部要趕快去統計虐童的件數 然後受理件數 案件來源 還有被害的年齡分布等等因為這些東西跟我們修法有很大關聯性但是換了部長之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4443.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4458.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我上一次問結果上一次次長跟我說沒有這個統計數字所以你們不能這樣啦你們不能說齁人民會我們要求你們提法案然後你們跟我說虐童致死要判刑這不符合比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4458.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4466.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
就跟你要犯罪的數據的時候呢你又跟我說兩手一攤你說我沒數據行政機關是這樣在做的嗎我們回去後我們趕緊統計就是刑罰286的案件這個從109人到113人有328件那個從那個案件的一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4478.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4499.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
沒關係 我跟你講 你數字要給我 但是我上上週在這邊開會的時候我當時跟次長要他說沒有統計 警政署也沒有統計但是我在去年四月我就有要求要做這些統計因為我們要趕快修法嘛 所以我需要這些數據啦好 那我再跟那個衛福部 一分鐘跟衛福部提一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4500.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4516.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
目前我國兒童的政策還有資源非常非常的混亂所以0到2歲的托育這個是社家屬對不對2到6歲是教育部然後0到2歲的兒童安置是社家屬就2到6歲是保護師 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4517.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4536.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
然後0到2歲他是內政部有一個少婦會然後2到6歲是警政署有副優隊就是說他管理是非常的混亂啦但是你們去看一下上次那個凱凱案發生之後就他竟然是教育部管轄的文教單位他在主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4536.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4559.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以變成說大家各做各的然後橫向聯繫也斷裂是不是說我們應該去思考你像日本在2023年他有成立那個兒童家庭廳嘛韓國也有類似的那個兒童權力保護院他也有類似的規範那所以說我們是不是要趕快處理否則目前台灣的社家屬他的兒少福利組人數只有17人 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4561.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4586.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
他要負責台灣海量的案件所以這個東西我想請教一下我們這邊有幾個問題啦就是我希望你們回覆給我而且這個也都是民團希望我們一定要問清楚的也請各位一定要給我們時程就是設立兒童部或兒少保護部的期程還有期限那能不能夠在今年的12月24號如期的揭牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4586.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4607.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
再來出收養的媒合機構還有管理辦法這個草案目前的進度還有能不能夠在今年六月完成法治的這個程序我希望趕快回覆給我們這個那我們會公開你們也可以公開因為非常多的民團現在一直來找我們承認這件事情因為他們發現他們找某些政黨無效了 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4607.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4635.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
沒有用了因為他們的黨綱把他們綁住很多委員很有心要幫但是現階段不知道該怎麼幫所以我們必須我們站出來要為這些民團講講話這些被害人家屬有太多被害人家屬在我辦公室哭得完全克制不了自己他們想到家人被殺想到小孩子被殺他完全克制不了自己然後一直在那邊痛哭然後說我們司法把他們當作司法的孤兒這部分太麻煩了 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4640.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4659.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這個什麼時候可以給我們我簡單兩個回應第一個就是有關於說出養媒合的這個辦法我們現在目前已經在外面我們現在目前已經送到相關來announce另外第二個委員跟各界都非常關心我們兒少專責機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4660.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4683.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那跟委員報告我們現在目前也已經提到一個已經也研擬相關的辦法那現在就是說到底要成立私屬或者您剛剛說不這個我想現在到組織的部分這個部分我們都會趕快來研議那我們相關的進度也會趕快跟委員來報告那這個問題可不可以兩個禮拜先回給我這幾個問題的答覆那有一些沒辦法解決我們可以再趕快來討論好的好的好那謝謝市長謝謝部長謝謝吳議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4694.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4718.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好 謝謝 我們下一位請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長麻煩副秘 麻煩部長跟衛福部的次長 請次長好 委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4723.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4750.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
最近這個關於這個小朋友被虐待致死很多家長表達了意見那也去進行相關的不管是集會遊行抗議或是表達他們的訴求你們三位都有看到這件事情他們的訴求有沒有人沒有看到都看到嗎那都看到你們有沒有你們三位有沒有人反對他們的訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4758.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4781.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
應該就來檢討可不可以再充實可以完備法治來更保護兒童我們對兒童少的這些的被被凌虐被被強害我們認為是零容忍的所以我們我聽到他們的聲音聽到他們的聲音然後也趕快積極的想辦法補上不管是政策或者法令這部分我們那個以最 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4782.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4789.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
最嚴格的一個態度我們修法來保障兒童那他們的訴求有哪一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4791.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4816.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
你們還是保留了這部分我想各界的聲音我們都會參裁會給他各界意見像那個以零列的這部分兒童兒童這部分我們立法方向我們是認為這是一個非常不可原諒的犯罪所以上次委員會這次我在座重申我們希望能夠考慮能夠研修把它列入到272條加重室友像未滿7歲的零列的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4817.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4836.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
用殺人的手段零類也有可能用殺人零類來殺人的手段這種我們認為是不是可以更重就是比一般的殺人罪更重它是屬於特別的殺人的一個加重犯刑是不是可以到死刑或無期徒刑把那個十年以上那個拿掉直接就判無期徒刑或者死刑那這些不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4837.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4864.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 那另外那個286這部分我們也是考慮是不是把它認為因為我們認為說這個零類制止這部分是不是可以實行這部分我們也是納入我們這個討論的修法這個你剛剛有提到昨天有相關的會議這兩天也會有相關的會議那明天也要再開一次會那剛剛這個部長提的這個內容是你的看法還是內部這個討論過程中我們提交的一個討論的一個修法的一個方向部裡頭提交的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4865.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4871.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
提交給行修小組的一個修法的一個意見第二個我請教衛福部剛剛這個我們召委提到這個相關虐童的這一些統計這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4885.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4903.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
你們的認知也是這樣嗎報告委員我們確實是這樣就這幾年其實老實說大家對於兒童那你覺得這個數字是低估還是高估報告委員我們現在目前我們就如此來做呈現這數字一定是低估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4904.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4922.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
因為這個是法務部統計的嘛有進到法務部系統的進到司法系統的才會出現嘛對不對那在台灣各個角落這些虐童的這些事情嘛那這些事情未必會進到司法的系統嘛可能會有一些黑數好 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4923.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4942.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那這個衛福部怎麼處理呢報告委員我們現在目前有幾個部分現在其實最主要大概就是說前端的預防怎麼預防來我跟委員報告我們現在目前就是說在各個結合各個林里我們都有推出一些所謂的這個零暴力零容忍的這些社區 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4943.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4967.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
鄰里協助對沒錯鄰里協助我想另外一個方面就是說來加強對於社會各界還有其實最重要事實上大家還是鄰里之間的互助我想還是最重要的那現在執行的狀況怎麼樣包委員我們現在目前就是這主要是社會安全網的這一個的那個部件那這個部分也非常感謝這個立法院對我們相關預算的一個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4967.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4991.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那我想這裡面最主要落實的一個問題其實最主要過去大概都有一個所謂法不入家門啦就是認為就是說這個所謂的家暴啦好這一塊你們就繼續努力這個事前的預防還是要放在最前面啦這個衛福部該做因為事情發生啊基本上進到司法的體系裡頭啦那接下來我請問這個司法院的這個副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4994.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5019.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
複必請教一下我們經常在媒體上看到不管是這種虐待小朋友虐待完全沒辦法有行為能力的老人他可能躺在床上然後被虐待被打不管他在家裡或者是在其他的什麼安養中心諸如此類的反正就是後來那個影像發現他被虐待或者是怎麼樣或者說他就被殺害了諸如此類 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5020.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5036.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
經常啊 我們後面就會看到那個 兇手啊就有精神障礙 他有心智缺陷每次啊 一般人看到這個 後面加這幾個字啊大家的 整個都唸講啊 又再來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5037.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5066.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就幹了這些事的人然後呢就又被可能是當這個加害者就這個被告的這個律師啊就拿出來說我這個當事人有精神障礙有心智缺陷所以所以所以一般如果看到這個大家都會理解站在法院的立場就是說這個在做相關的這個判決的時候啊這一些在實務上你們到底怎麼把它納進去考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5067.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5068.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
法治上一定會規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5097.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5115.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
有沒有足夠的這個去就是辯護的這個能力這個也是要有足夠的辯護的能力因為我們今天去包括蔣介石委員提出來的這個虐童這個現在新的這個提案叫做死刑或無期徒刑兩種而已啦 沒辦法所以如果剛剛提到這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5120.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5145.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
他人虐待,你還要說發刮痰,因為他精神障礙、心智缺陷也有強烈的證據,他過去也有就醫紀錄,都有他最後還是會判死刑跟無期徒刑,就沒有別的路可以走了是不是這要看那個個案,就是要回到刑法總則第19條就是說有沒有那個減刑的規定所以他還是有可能被減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5147.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5168.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
結果大家看他很恐慌很恐慌然後那個影像大家看起來說這張的要死結果大家一般人的邏輯說這張的不怕死刑那會痛結果法官判的時候又回到說因為他精神障礙因為他心智缺陷因為怎麼樣怎麼樣所以沒有把他判無期也沒有把他判死刑你們認為呢全世界都這樣嗎還是今天我們台灣這樣而已這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5177.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5188.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這是全世界都是這樣子的規定 另外還有身心障礙者權利公約就是這裡頭也有相關規定所以這個是民眾如果看到這個總共3人就說不爽 罵公公 怎麼可以這樣這個規定全世界就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5199.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5221.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
對 而且他跟委員報告就是說在法律那個設計上除了刑罰之外他還有一個保安處分如果說他那個精神障礙有狀況的話沒有辦法負完全的這個責任的時候他還有保安處分譬如說讓他到什麼機構去去就醫或者是在一個地方有儲遇對 他是兩條軌道的一個儲遇方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5223.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5239.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
最後請部長部長 這個修法大家都很重視很多委員也提了相關的版本包括國民黨的黨團 黨團都提版本這事情說實在的也不能太拖今天討論 您說您長的長有討論 還有這兩天也討論所以您的版本要加速我們會盡快提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5250.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5259.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
社會期待,你這樣又拖下去,因為我知道去年是有修了一個加重基礎,那可是這一段期間大家對這些案子,也是都吃不乾,希望說,我們的政府能夠拿出態度來 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5267.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5278.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以不能再拖,如果幾天就開會討論,就盡快有版本就盡快納進來討論,反正你懷疑6月、7月都還有會6月、7月都還有會,大家趕快做一個改革,下會我就接受不然這個事情拖拖刷刷,這個過程當中你如果再拖下去這個過程當中如果還有發生不幸的事情,這沒人擋下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5297.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5307.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以這可能法務部要加油好不好 謝謝委員我們加速 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5320.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5329.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
好 主席我請我們司法院副秘書長 法務部部長以及衛福部政策 衛福部次長委員早安好早 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5334.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5358.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
部長先請教剛才幾位委員都特別關心到就是有關於我們刑法的修正我剛才在提案說明裡面特別講到在去年陸陸續續開始由我們的委員開始修法那麼國民黨團的各位委員一共有15個修法提案但是民進黨團的提案數是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5359.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5374.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那麼在廣大的民意的壓力下尤其凱凱案激發眾怒終於法務部願意做回應剛才我也聽到第一個部長說要加快修法的腳步對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5375.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5395.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
第二個,我剛才有沒有聽錯,也就是把凌虐誘而致死的這個罪行的刑度,有可能提高到死刑,或者是無期徒刑,我有沒有聽錯?那的確是有這個規劃,那個立法的一個方向。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5395.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5410.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
就是在刑法裡面針對七歲以下的幼兒 淋虐致死最高刑度會到死刑這部分是我們立法的一個方向 那我們有提出來做一個討論那這樣子會定案嗎這邊我想我們儘速來推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5416.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5433.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那另外我請教一下因為我們的現在像我們為什麼非常想趕快加速來做修法因為這個凱凱案他的最新的判決已經出來了大家也看到全部沒有死刑嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5433.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5461.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
對不對因為他最高度是無期對最高度也是無期徒刑而且隨著這個審判的過程把兩個保姆怎麼樣凌虐這麼小的孩子的這個過程也呈現在社會大眾的眼前大家覺得這麼殘忍這麼故意但是呢在我們的法律下仍然沒有辦法去判處死刑所以這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5461.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5475.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
激起了重怒所以我們也希望在司法法治委員會我們加快修法的角度我剛才也特別說了因為也等啊因為在這個這個網路平台上公民提議也提議了非常久那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5477.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5503.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
左等右等法務部沒有提案出來所以呢由立法院 我們立法委員衛銘喉舌所以呢來回應社會大眾的期待所以我現在想請教部長我們這個會期預計是在七月底結束請問一下在我們會期結束之前法務部有可能行政院有可能把這個案子送到立法院來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5504.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5521.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這部分我們會加速然後我們跟行政院來做一個報告然後我們想要來加速來推動我想可以盡快的來回應民眾的社會的一個期待那我想可以落實保護我們這個兒少的這些權利好那我也跟部長說沒辦法去容忍這被林內被搶害 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5523.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5540.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因為真的沒有辦法再等了啦 真的沒有辦法再等了我們過去很多的女兒案件 很多的殘忍的女兒案件 一而再再而三的發生如果我們大人的世界沒有辦法保護我們的孩子 這是我們的失職這也是我們 真的變成我們很殘忍啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5546.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5572.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
是不是 所以在這邊告訴部長希望你們能夠非常非常快速因為基本上我們修法的進度我們今天如果能夠順利的送出就是送出我們的委員會的話因為我知道民進黨仍然是不同意嘛本來的話如果說大家都同意其實很快的我們這個就修法讓我們的孩子就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5573.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5596.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
有這個至少呢在法律上能夠得到保護但是如果呢民進黨團仍然是不同意的話那又要使得這個法案要繼續的所謂的冷凍一個月嗎我真的覺得說如果今天我們因為的所謂的黨派之爭如果今天行政院已經都覺得這是一個修法的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5596.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5616.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那到時候我們在主條審查的時候你們就可以提出你們的修正動議了嘛對不對你們就可以提出你們的修正動議讓我們的法律加速進行沒有道理說今天還要我們一直等待你們啊是不是啊左等右等你不來怎麼辦所以在這邊呢也要跟大家報告是 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5617.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5647.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
部長你這邊最好就是你可能應該要有準備在我們逐條審查的時候那你們就提出你們的修正動議出來才能夠加速修法嘛部長同不同意這邊我們來努力好不好你們來努力一下因為我們真的不要一直等啦等來等去沒有意思好不好那也是我們的失職好另外喔那我也請那個我們的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5653.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5676.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
在法律裡面把凌虐誘而致死列入死刑或者是無期徒刑但是很多的國人的疑問是法律裡面有死刑又怎樣好 我們最近剛才這麼多的委員都提到列進死刑又怎麼樣因為第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5678.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5697.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
大法官的解釋出來第一個法律有死刑他不會判死即便有一個就是比如一審的時候判死接下來呢到了高等法院要駁回要把他推翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5699.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5716.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
然後就算我們到目前為止啦我們這限派八號出來之後沒有一個判死的嘛到目前為止沒有一個判死而且很多是而且這裡面有幾個像這個2022年6月那個新竹的輪胎行縱火案然後燒死八名自己的親人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5722.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5748.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那大家都覺得罪無可換了一審判處死刑結果大法官宪判八號出來之後立刻又改判無期徒刑這就是第一個原來判死刑後來又改判無期徒刑的例子好 那你就算判了死刑之後然後再加上我們整個的從偵查到槍決 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5750.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5766.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
有八道關卡 八道的金牌 就是免死金牌 給你到真的要執行死刑 要有很多的關關卡卡所以我們在這邊 要請問一下 我們就請教司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5769.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5798.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
對於法官來說我相信有很多法官要判死刑啊輾轉反側嘛輾轉反側如果以像我剛才講的新竹輪胎案一審判定罪無可赦判決死刑我相信這一審的法官你以為他是想隨便判死刑啊以現在的這種社會氣氛這幾年社會氣氛要判死刑不容易啊是不是但是他判了死刑之後因為我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5800.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5824.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
大法官的解釋之後又不能夠去判處死刑又變成無期徒刑然後同樣的我們剛才也有特別提到馬來西亞的女大生也是一樣啊所以我們當然希望在修法裡面回應廣大民眾的期待但是如果這個實質廢死實質廢死沒有辦法解決的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5829.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5836.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
修法不足以自刑修法不足以保護我們的國人修法不足以保護我們的幼童啊有沒有解決的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5841.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5861.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
跟那個 跟委員報告齁在那個憲判八之後呢事實上那個法院就是在那個憲判八議職底下還是有宣告死刑的像那個高雄的那個殺鄰居夫妻的這個熊芬的114上重訴一號他在那個今年的三月十號就是有宣告那個死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5862.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5877.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那另外呢就是在那個雄芬的114親生重更二第一號的這個案件他在一省還有那個二省是在今年的1月15號也就是在現判八之後還是有宣告死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5878.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5906.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那至於說就是剛才講就是這個案件就是馬來西亞女學生這個案件呢最高法院它撤銷它事實上會撤銷它一定是因為就是畢竟是一個死刑的判決它必須是完全沒有判決那個瑕疵所以是針對就是判決上的有一些瑕疵所以前面都有判決瑕疵前面都有判決瑕疵所以嘛我覺得對於我認為對於很多法官來講他們也很痛苦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5908.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5930.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
一審 二審 到最高法院 又突然哪一個法官覺得你有瑕疵 或者他就是不願意判死那個報告委員齁 就是這個不只是在宣判八之後 向來就是各審級那個 尤其是最高法院 它已經是要那個定驗的一個審級了齁那所以說 面對就是宣判死刑 它當然是會比較嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5931.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5955.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以這個以前就是說在那個上訴之後呢就是這個撤銷這個在過去也是我必須在這邊說啊第一個大法官不具民意基礎的大法官在在80%的民意的對立面做出了這樣的一個憲判吧使得我們的很多的公平正義司法的公平正義無法伸張 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5959.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5968.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這真的太扯 然後我們希望能夠透過公投結果周選會又沒收公投沒收人民來做決定實在非常離譜啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5970.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5992.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們現在民意是大家不能講話嗎就如同我們現在在財委會也是一樣啊行政院要把這個地方補助款把它整個刪掉縣市政府都派員 甚至台南市也都有派人來啊就你們民進黨團在那邊不讓人家講話 不讓人家上去講話啊 到這種程度啊為什麼現在民意要刪招 民意要講話這麼困難呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6002.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6021.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以在這邊我當然知道中選會的判決不干你們的事情可是我必須要請我們在所有在司法每一個環節的人去想一想我們這些被害人被害人的家屬不要讓他們對於司法已經完全的喪失信心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6022.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6043.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
所以為什麼這些凱凱案的這些父母們除了他當然游說我相信他游說我們立法院所有的委員希望我們能夠修正刑法但是除此之外也能夠把這個一致決的實質廢死案也能夠得到解決啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6044.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6066.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好 這個字也拜託我們所有在司法上每一個環節的人想著司法就是一個天平啊就是要保護國人的生命財產安全不要因為少數人的意志或者某個政黨的神主牌然後犧牲掉我們人民最基本的權益好 以上好 謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6085.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6087.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
行事廳廳長也上來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6108.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6134.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我想幾位啊我今天聽了 早上聽了我們立法院幾位委員的這樣的一個詢答以後啊我是感慨很深啦 感慨很深立法院不是一個水準很高的地方但是立法院是一個多元民意的一個地方我最擔心的就是說我們今天提出來這個修法就是說叫做民意的伸張這句話聽起來真的是很可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6135.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6146.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
為什麼說很可怕就是說民意常常像流水一樣不同的壓力團體不同的民團有它的一個主張那你站在司法部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6149.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6169.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那你怎麼樣來採取什麼樣的一個名業我倒反而會覺得說正義要伸張啊你說虐童可不可惡可惡啊尤其是致死當然可惡啊要不要重判當然要重判啊但我最擔心的是什麼大家把那個概念給搞混掉了王一川坐在那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6172.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6190.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我每天去捏他 我也是在把他捏他產生不了什麼效果他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已啊我一直捏一直捏一直捏一直捏捏捏到最後他搞不好輕傷一股藥而已啊搞不好我那個手段再狠一點他變重傷他有可能虐到最後他死掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6191.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6204.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果但是主觀到底要犯意是做些什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6206.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6226.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
我要語重心長的講啦講出在今天這樣的一個修法講出不同見解的人壓力是特別的大特別的大像剛吳宗憲委員你也是法律人出身啊我對他的看法是他也完全顛覆我的看法我就不認同但是也請你聽聽看你都一直認為說這個構成要件啊這個法官啊不要被他給綁住了我要跟昭偉報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6233.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6254.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我們一當代法學思想在強調的就是罪行法定主義你不要以為罪行法定主義是很古老的東西你罪行法定完為什麼叫罪行法定就是我要構成要件立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官不能讓他愛怎麼判隨著他的情緒怎麼判就怎麼判那不行啊哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪起訴了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6261.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6264.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條啊都可以變更啊那所以說 沒有這個過程要見 我才怕咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6270.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6282.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們今天在講說 凌虐致死可不可惡 非常可惡 民主進步黨也認為非常可惡我認為法務部一定認為很可惡啊 司法院也認為很可惡啊 凌虐把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢那我剛看各位 你們回答後 部長就很想去回答可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院嘛 你們不能暢所欲言 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6293.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6318.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那覆滅了又法官出身那你當然就不想多言啦那其實你們的判決書我都看過嘛你們寫的判決書是質地有深啊水準是非常高的啊可是到了立法院有時候礙於時間的因素你也不知道要怎麼說我就來進入主題啦你像譬如說以今天所提出來的你說凌虐虐童你說凌虐致死你說變成死刑跟無期徒刑我為什麼覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6321.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6334.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
會顛覆現在的法學思潮就你去創設了一個我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話在我們刑法體系個人侵害到個人法益是最高的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6335.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6353.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那你如果殺人罪你又沾泥,死刑無期徒刑沾泥,那你現在凌虐致死,那你創一個死刑跟無期徒刑,那你創設一個比殺人罪還更重的一個法律出來,這好奇怪,這個沒辦法說服我,我不曉得怎麼樣來說服我自己。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6357.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6383.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
不能說我自己不是說我認為劣童之死是不可惡非常可惡但是體系上會錯亂所以我倒覺得刑法的正義它當然要去嚴懲但是也要符合比例原則那你用剝奪用非以奪命為目的的虐待的行為的法定刑你把它設定這個極刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6385.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6408.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
負面會不會有 你會不會覺得體系混亂的問題謝謝委員因為我贊同那個委員的那個意見因為凌略致死他之所以沒有構成殺人就是說他一剛開始的時候他不是一個殺人的一個翻譯是一個比較低的就是說像那個委員講的去捏他那所以就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6410.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6437.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以說這兩個事實上它是有罪責相當的問題就是表現在它的法定形上它是有一個層次不一樣的所以我就知道你的意思了嘛但問題你們在這邊講不清楚在立法院我告訴你 你沒辦法講清楚反而你真正想我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣不知道我的頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣我都覺得立法的東西啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6437.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6454.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
真的是不能民粹回應民意很重要但是呢但是兩邊在拉扯的時候你如果一個國家一個司法你沒有去把它守住這個整個法律的一個體系的話你會崩潰掉你真的會崩潰掉我再來舉例就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6458.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6470.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
你說馬前總統執政的時候簽了兩公約嘛我也不談說兩公約要不要遵守的問題啦你那兩公約我們現在已經是內國化我們已經把它當成國內法囉那你光修這裡的話那好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6475.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6492.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那你兩公約裡面你講的裡面講的是在講說你締約國不得在批准公約時候其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑好那你兩條你受罷典你這個地方修那除非你那個地方也修除非我們也去修不是這樣子嗎所以我是覺得非常遺憾的地方就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6503.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6508.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
大家看到這一些讓人痛恨的事情 其實大家心裡頭想法都一樣的啦虐童致死 我相信不管是中國國民黨 台灣民眾黨 或者民主進步黨大家都認為那個非常可惡 只是說這個法令怎麼樣來定你要定到說 虐童致死的 他就是一個刑法的太上條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6529.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6543.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他定的比殺人罪還要重可是你又沒有辦法去說明說他的故意他不是基於殺人的故意他只是因為虐童到就死掉了所以那個叫做帝王刑法的帝王條款你要去這樣創設道理講清楚了以後我也沒有意見喔但是大家要先講清楚喔虐童可惡虐待直系血清尊精屬可不可惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6556.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6562.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
虐童致死啦 死刑無期徒刑啊把父母親把他虐待死了覺得沒有關係 比較輕一點這個也沒有辦法說服我這個也沒辦法說服我死 我在這邊再強調啊尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾的朋友啊還有我們所謂的民團啊你們的意見 你們的憤怒 立法院你都聽見了但是我們談的是在談一個法律的一個體系啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6584.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6604.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你說死掉了啦我們一般在講就是說每一次犯罪大家都講說到底衝擊到什麼樣的一個法義大一的學生最喜歡提這個所有的個人的法義集合到最後才去提到什麼國家法義那不管那我的意思就是說你這樣譬如說人死掉了誰讓他死掉的如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉的連刑法都沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6613.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6630.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
死掉了可不可憐 好可憐欸你對這些家屬怎麼去做一個彌補 是喔這個時候如果說家裡頭又沒有錢了 那怎麼辦被害人真的是很痛苦啊那如果這是致死的行為人 剛好是14歲以下的養母熊 國無賽如果碰到的是一個80歲以上的去殺人的 你刑法設計又必檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6640.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6652.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以產生死亡的結果他有很多原因那這個行為人這個加害者有很多不同的態樣啊產生出來不是產生叫做必死 不會啊不然我們刑法為什麼從總則邊開始去做一個設計要講罪責 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6660.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6672.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
然後呢再到最後用這個過程要件把整個法律人給綁住不能讓你心情想到哪裡你覺得你很痛苦啊這個很可惡就給你亂判判處即行那也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6673.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6691.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那也不行所以我倒覺得說今天啊這樣的一個修法裡面啊我絕對支持啊這個強化兒童的一個保護杜絕孽童的行為我相信各個政黨大家都一樣但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口把他整個刑法的體系把它給崩潰掉善思啦我覺得這個要善思啦尤其是大家法律人都講說這個要有比例原則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6702.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6718.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我特別去查了不少的一個案例啊不少的一個案例啊我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死的部分這致死的部分他到最後也會去提升到用殺人罪去判你像譬如說我去當人家的保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6723.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6740.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我當保姆去把人家凌虐 把他扣毒他要把他扣毒 過夜或過午而已 也不安全也許會妨礙到他身心的一個健康健全的發展這個觸犯到刑罰那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了風險慢慢在提高有人去報警了 他怕警察追啊好啊 不要把他救 把他帶走小孩子死掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6753.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6756.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪死掉 虐童行為太陽很多啊可能是基於 我就是自己哭動而已啊有的人就是哭了 到最後輕傷有變成死人重傷然後到最後有可能產生死亡的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6771.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6793.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
他因為他是一個保姆所以他有基於保證人的地位你看到他要死可能會死你去讓他死掉你不去救他你那個風險慢慢去提升這個基於保證人的地位法官會認為說那你就產生你這個跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的判處死刑這種判決我也看到了我認為這個判決很正確啊所以未必什麼都是一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6799.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6817.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
死刑要提升到死刑也可以我認為也可以可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款真的要善失但重點還是在哪裡呢我還是覺得還是在法官給他獨立審判的空間我個人都不認為死刑是最最最嚴重的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6827.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6839.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我認為最可惡的人要是我來判的話我不判死刑我判他無期徒刑讓他生不如死我們乾脆立法院來設定一個很可惡的除了死刑以外要加一個無期徒刑每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意來宣洩這樣好嗎但可以思考喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6854.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6870.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
所以我會覺得 各位啊 今天碰到這個議題 你們都不方便講啦但是我要再強調 虐童行為要杜絕 虐童行為要重判這一題不是政治題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6871.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6879.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這一題不是政治題目各個政黨不用去互相吐口水這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題啦很抱歉啦實在是我的才疏學淺啦不敢看夠啦剛才我其實我自認為啊我這個法學跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6888.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6912.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
複密 跟廳長 跟部長 跟你們比較應該都會很生疏啦只是 這些基本的幾百年來法學的一個時潮還有法律人必須要嚴守的這些基本的原理還是要慎重啦不然 你說他可不可惡 我覺得很可惡啊要把他判到死刑 我贊成欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6913.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6927.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
如果法官認為他已經提升到一個殺人的未必故意的當然可以把他判給你也同樣要判處死刑也可以啊你這個基於殺人之故意直接判你殺人罪就好啊我來判我敢判他死刑啊但重點是重點是說要把他提升一個獨立的一個帝王條款都不去問他本身當初他的主觀的翻譯是什麼就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇這個可能有待考慮而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6941.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6957.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
跟我們整個國內法的一個會不會產生衝突我再強調一次不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題兩公約已經是國內法了那我們在修法的時候就算這個地方要過其實應該要同時是兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題啦以上 謝謝好 謝謝總委員那下一位我們請審法會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6979.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7005.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
主席各位同仁我想今天其實我們召委設定這個議題其實有很多很多問題可以談這也有一部分這個目前社會民眾的情緒那有更多的部分是專業的法律的探討其實一個一個議題都我是剛剛蠻佩服莊瑞雄委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7006.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7025.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
在這裡把這個就這個目前虐童刑度的調整的部分他把這些在學術上面有一些的不同的考慮在這邊把它提出來那我也覺得這樣子議題是今天這個主題其實值得大家好好的來討論其實召委應該給每個委員20分鐘的時間才有辦法討論這麼多的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7030.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7057.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那這個我也覺得說這個議題其實也真的沒有什麼咆哮的必要也沒有怎麼會這種議題在這裡說啊這個這個哪一個黨都有提哪個黨都沒有提案哪一個委員沒有提案好像扣上說啊沒有提案就是就是想就支持虐童的的的虐童犯沒有提案就是就是就是包庇這種都是沒有必要了像剛才莊惠雄委員他就非常的清楚的對就學禮上面來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7058.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7082.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那除了這個虐童案的這個刑度的修法,今天另外病案討論這列的主題,其實一個一個問題都有很多可以討論包括這個法官,就是這個死刑的量刑準則,包括這個被害的影響陳述,這是第二個議題包括教化的可能性,復歸社會的可能性,這又是一個議題,第三個議題第四個議題,量刑前的社會調查,甚至鑑定,又是第五個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7083.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7099.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
所以這每一個議題其實都很值得討論那我想我這個在這裡剩下其實時間真的很少不過我還是在這裡盡量的我們來想跟司法院這邊請司法院副秘書長想跟司法院來討論一下我們相關的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7104.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7122.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
副院長,我剛剛所列出的幾個問題,我一個一個來跟副院長討論有關死刑的量刑的準則,事實上依照國民法官法第五條,目前我們如果是 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7124.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7144.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
要判死刑的案件事實上都一定是有國民法官參審的對不對是是嘛對所以也就是說這個我們現這個113年憲判第8號提出的這個所謂這個判決判處死刑必須要由這個何怡婷法官一致決這何怡婷法官一致決她指的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7145.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7172.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
職業法官 就是沒有包括國民法官所以就是職業法官裡面那按照國民法官法目的第83條之一他量刑有罪認定要三分之二那這個他的量刑要這個如果是量刑是半數以上就可以了量刑是半數以上但是這個有罪認定要三分之二那這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7173.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7194.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
所以這個也就是說如果要判處死刑的話六名國民法官六名國民法官加上這個三個職業法官總共九個人九個人裡面要判處死刑三加三嘛至少要三加三至少要六票以上同意就九席裡面六票以上同意但是六票裡面三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7195.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7221.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
職業法官都必須要一致同意對不對所以不是說這個憲判不是說出來之後一定要九個人全部都一致同意才可以判死刑不是吧這個部分我想何當應該在這裡先釐清所以就是說目前這個制度不是憲判第8號113年憲判第8號他並不是說要全部的包括國民法官包括職業法官加起來全部通過一致決才可以判死刑不是九個人裡面有六個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7223.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7232.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
紅疫就可以判死刑這個我想要在這裡先說明今天所討論的第二個問題有關於被害影響陳述的問題事實上被害影響陳述其實是訴訟參與人 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7240.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7267.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面的一個部分他整個是訴訟參與人的意見陳述那這些意見陳述事實上訴訟參與人的意見陳述裡面他其實還有分不同的部分他光講一個說被害影響陳述事實上他有證據調查的部分證據調查就可以做意見陳述這是第一個第二個有關於被害情感的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7268.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7277.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
他也可以 也要做意見陳述嘛 這第二種意見陳述第三個是有關於這個科型的辯論 辯論科型的時候 他又有第三個這個意見陳述的機會啦齁那這個這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7284.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7309.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
最主要就是說我們在實務上面常常在證據調查過程中他就夾雜這些情緒性跟主觀性的意見讓這些國民法官他沒有辦法事實上國民法官我們剛剛講的學理上面有這三種原因但事實上國民法官他沒有辦法區分他沒有辦法區分現在這個意見陳述到底是證據的意見陳述還是這個被害感情的意見陳述還是辯論還是這科型這個國民法官他沒有辦法區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7311.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7316.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
一般的國民法官他沒有辦法去區分這個這到底現在的意見陳述是屬於哪一種意見陳述那這個部分呢這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7320.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7347.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
但是如果沒有妥善區分的話沒有真正區分這三種不同意見陳述它事實上對於最後的審判結果恐怕會有影響那我們司法院現在是不是有沒有針對訴訟參與人的意見陳述的方式我們來設計一個明確的引導的規範跟實務的指引來確保國民法官他在審判過程中他對這些不同意見陳述的認知以及他秩序跟他的正當性我們有沒有這樣的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7348.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7366.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
跟委員報告 就是在那個國民法官案件實際審理的時候呢他每次一個程序的一個階段呢 先前跟之後就是審判長都會告訴這些國民法官說這個人 譬如說這個被害人他現在講了這一段話那他的評價是什麼 就是他的用意是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7367.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7385.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
就是他的休息會比我們一般職業法官多這個部分這個職業法官必須要有相當程度的說明跟引導才讓國民法官理解說目前這些陳述他到底是屬於證據的陳述還是屬於這個被愛情感的陳述還是屬於量刑的陳述這個東西都要引導啦這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7386.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7408.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這是有關於這個我們講這個這個被害影響陳述的部分我們今天還有其他的議題第三個就是有關於這個教化的可能性跟復歸社會可能性這類在今天議程上面的議題這個所謂教化可能性這個東西在我們法學上面一直都頗有爭議他這次最高法院這97年度的台上至5968號的判決裡面所確立的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7411.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7429.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所謂的教化可能性最後現在在一般實務上面幾乎大量的引用這個教化的可能性但是我們這個教化可能性這樣子事實上它卻沒有一個立法跟一個制度的標準其實沒有對不對教化可能性如何衡量教化可能性我們目前我國的法治並沒有標準化對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7433.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7456.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
其實這個談的是社會復歸的可能性對 其實社會復歸的可能性比教化可能性還要更精準一點但是事實上現在大部分都用教化可能性在實務上使用教化可能性很多而且事實上沒有標準事實上教化可能性是目前沒有一個標準的規範我們來參考德國跟日本事實上德國跟日本他們是有標準規範的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7458.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7461.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個德國的制度,德國有一個叫做HCR20,簡單講德國是有一個行為預測的鑑定模式, |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7474.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7489.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那在日本呢他有一個法定的叫做矯正可能性報告他必須要有這個報告這些都是德國跟日本他們的這種法覆歸社會可能性教化可能性他有一個標準的一個建立啦那在我國目前是沒有的這部分齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7491.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7506.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
這部分我希望說我們是不是能夠就這個鑑定說明引導而且事實上這個我剛所講德國跟日本他們在對於這個教化的可能性鑑定的制度他的拘束力是很強的 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7507.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7530.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
在我國我們最後的這個鑑定報告它只是法院參酌使用而已在德國的話如果你採取或不採取鑑定的意見他都必須要具體說明理由在我國不用了我國參考而已你法官最後要不要採信這個鑑定這個是你不用說明的在德國是要你為什麼鑑定出來這樣子你為什麼採用你為什麼不採用你必須要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7532.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7561.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
在日本也是日本也是這個法官他必須要向這個裁判員裁判員就是這個國民法官他必須要向他說明說鑑定他在鑑定裡面他的意義跟他的適用方式這個日本要說明那我國目前沒有我看我們現在司法院有一個這個法官對於國民法官指示的參考手冊我翻譯這裡面我們目前沒有針對這一部分有所規定是不是我們司法院可以考慮把我剛剛所講的這一部分把它納入這些參考指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7566.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7594.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
跟委員好跟委員報告一下我們現在量刑前鑑定的部分現在我們有一個重大矚目刑事案件量刑前鑑定調查評估一個手冊對相關的鑑定的內容跟操作方式主要針對在新港57條456款另外第10款這個部分但是我現在是要回歸到我們要講說復歸社會的可能性跟教化的可能性這個部分的衡量標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7595.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7609.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這部分事實上牽涉到我們今天接下來的立法就是大家對於說認為說這個到底有消化可能性還沒有消化可能性這為什麼不判他死刑這是同樣的問題這部分我目前我沒有法治化跟標準化這部分我希望說能夠建立制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7610.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7627.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那時間的關係我們有關量刑前的社會調查這是我們刑法第57條第7項到第10項的部分後面還有很多我本來還有很多學術性的部分想要跟你們討論包括自改國事會議有關於推動量刑準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7628.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7641.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
的建立齁這個部分在四海國事會議裡面是有共識的啦齁那這個我們也事實上我看我們司法院事實上也過去也有也有這個推動量刑準則我們在時間上我做了很多事情但是我們在這個100在在111年12月院會齁我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7645.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7661.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
院會有通過而且也送到立法院來審議了但是因為屆期不連續這個案子就沒有了這一屆我看也沒有再送那這個部分是不是我們這個這個部分是不是請副院長說明一下我們未來有關於這個推動量刑準則的部分我們接下來的努力方向是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7662.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7691.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好那個謝謝委員齁那個這部分就如同委員所說的就是那個屆期不連續之後那現在就回到司法院這邊繼續研議齁那主要事實上是有兩個方向一個是有關於要成立就是量刑準則委員會啊因為原來設計它是一個二級獨立機構那這個部分呢就是說各方有不同的那個意見好現在我們那個既然我們在上一屆草案已經有送立法院了啦齁那我們現在在研議之後是不是能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7692.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7715.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們至少在半年之內我們提出一個書面報告提出一個書面報告目前這個研議的成果跟我們未來推動的努力的這個時程好不好好 是的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員好 再下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7729.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7742.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好主席好這邊有請王複密麻煩複密李廳長抱歉是刑事廳的李大仁廳長好謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7752.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7763.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這個這次立法院所提出的針對反廢死的公投俗稱反廢死的公投那麼很遺憾中選會既然他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7765.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7786.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
對於立法院所提出的公投進行審查同時呢又拒絕辦理立法院所提出的公投我在這裡要借這個機會要譴責中選會他根本無權審查那麼也無權拒絕辦理立法院所交付的公投這個已經是這個明顯的違法違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7788.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7810.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
公投法的相關的規定那麼當然這次中選會他主要認為說我們立法院所提出的這個公投就是你是否同意對於這個各級法院法官判處死刑不需要一致決的這個議題他認為這不是重大政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7811.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7824.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
而是属于立法原则创制那当然对于中选会我就刚刚已经一开始就说他根本无权审查到底立法院所出的公投案是属于哪个性质 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7825.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7849.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
坦白說他真的沒有權利去進行審查更何況我們這次所提出的公投的命題也非常清楚他就是涉及到一個重大政策重大立法政策重大立法政策這個立法原則的創制其實也是完全不同的概念所以我在這裡我想請教就是說因為在現在法院組織法105條裡面清楚的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7853.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7858.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
法官評議是以過半數的意見決定之那麼如果說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7860.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7882.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個法官的意見有分三說以上的話那麼他有一些相關的規定就是要針對不同的這個意見然後來進行這個按照順序來進行表決那麼所以有關於法院組織法105條的這樣子的一個規定未來如果要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7884.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7905.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們要檢討 譬如說到底對於法官過半數評議的這樣子的一個決定的標準是不是應該要改採三分之二 四分之三 乃至於一致決的這樣子一個修改請問 複密 您認為這是不是屬於一個重大的立法政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7908.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7928.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那個報告委員因為那個中選會那個決定這個我們尊重他們職權行使這個我們司法院不方便那個評論但是在線那個因為主制法105條是是因為那個憲判8呢他有關於就是死刑一致決這個是他那個判決主文所宣示 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7929.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7950.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那我們那個司法院是基於憲法訴訟法第38條第一項就是它那個規定說那個憲法法庭的判決有拘束各機關及人民的效力那各機關有實現判決內容的義務所以說這個法院組織法105條這個規定呢目前我們也有在那個做那個研議修法的研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7952.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7979.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
當然本席在這裡我要提出其實我對於憲法 憲判制八號判決是極不認同簡單來說我根本認為它就是一個違憲的憲法判決它的大法官已經把手深入立法權 介入立法政策的形成那麼這部分其實憲判制八號的判決我相信未來如果換了一批大法官的話這號判決可能會被推翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7980.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8008.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那麼更何況這當然在德國有不同的法學裡也都認為說不見得大法官他的這個憲法判決是可以拘束立法機關的那麼所以接下來的這個修法會如何提案那當然我本期這裡也會提案修法那麼當然我更期待的是很快就可以看到司法院然後乃至於這法務部的這個相關的修法請問現在司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8009.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8033.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
已經有針對相關的修法有進行已經開始進行討論了嗎有沒有召開過公聽會對外召開公聽會我們是召開諮詢會因為那個範圍比較小然後內容也比較特定所以是召開諮詢會已經進行了三次了所以你們只是召開專家學者諮詢會議是但是你們都沒有對外召開公聽會目前沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8034.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8036.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你們考量是什麼?這個議題難道不是涉及跟我們廣大民眾權益有關的議題嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8042.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8067.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我想王蜂蜜很清楚知道 憲判48號做出來之後尤其對於這個法官要不要判處死刑 自覺的這個事情已經引起了全國民眾 非常多民眾而且尤其是被害者家屬的不滿那這樣的議題上面難道不需要邀請相關的團體來進行一起討論嗎報告委員 這個部分因為我們是依據那個憲判8他那個主文所揭示的那個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8069.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8090.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所做的那個修法所以就是說基於大法官的決定那麼根本就也不需要再跟民眾對話民眾溝通司法院難道不需要負責去幫忙這個大法官去說服民眾去接受一致決的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8091.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8115.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
當然也知道其實現在整個民意是反彈的然後我們立法院要提出公投然後希望讓民眾能夠透過這次機會能夠來表達自己的意見可是中選會莫名其妙它明明就是一個小小的二級的行政機關竟然還有權力來否決立法院所提出的公投這是非常不恰當的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8117.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8142.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
那么司法院你们作为法院组织法的主管机关你们为了要提出修法在这个议题上面本席认为说司法院还是应该要召开公听会即便你们知道可能以你们的立场不太可能会去做出跟大法官判决相违背的修法建议但是在这个过程当中就是一个很好的民众 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8143.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8155.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
相互溝通然後說服民眾或是怎麼樣把大法官的意見能夠說給民眾聽我在這裡是不是要求司法院應該要召開公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8157.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8181.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個我們部分我們回去演繹我要再提醒就是司法的這個人民對司法的信賴對司法的了解其實就是在這個相互的政策的溝通的過程當中一步一步的進行如果司法院完全不聆聽民意不去進行相關法案溝通的話我覺得這是非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8182.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8204.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我會寫一件事情然後接下來我要再談的就是有關於在大法官宪判這八號做成之後有關於一致決的部分在適用在國民法官的審理案件上面所出現的矛盾那麼依照這個你們現在司法院最新在網頁上面公告的說明未來對於可能判處死刑的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8205.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8234.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
必須要由國民法官至少要有三個人以上以及法官三個人同意才可以判處死刑是那麼其實依照你們這樣子的一個一個認定依照大法官的這個憲判制的八號所做出來的這樣子的一個說明其實它會凸顯一個問題就是如果說未來國民法官有六個人都是做出了一致決的判死決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8236.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8263.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
然後呢其中這三位職業法官兩個是贊成要判處死刑一個是不贊成判處死刑那麼就代表說這個案子是根本不成立對不對就會變成是九位國民法官加兩位職業法官總共九票是贊成判處死刑但是一票是不同意就全盤否認了否決了可以判處死刑的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8265.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8280.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
我想王富明應該會知道像這樣子的一個這個評議決定做成之後他可能會引起整個社會大眾輿論的反彈那更重要的是本席也認為這跟你當時成立國民法官制度就是要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8283.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8308.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
制定國民法官法引進國民法官是有很大的矛盾衝突你們自己的當時國民法官法在做宣導的時候還說國民法官是實現你心中的正義結果有嗎依照現在憲判自8號這個判決做成之後國民法官可以實現他們心中的正義嗎顯然沒有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8315.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8333.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以我真的認為司法院其實應該要去好好的去思考怎麼去解決國民法官的這個問題未來修法是不是一定要叫三位法官 職業法官一定要一致決的這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8334.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8347.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
要進行好好的研析否則的話我認為這樣的一個決定基本上呢事實上就等於是保護了那個極少數的否決權 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8349.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8361.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那事實上大法官憲判這八號判決本來就是在保護司法的少數暴力我個人認為是這樣那麼這個是急不妥的那本席希望說你們可以考慮這個問題然後最後還有一個議題比較簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8366.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8379.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
本席之前有參加生命權平等協會的座談會也聆聽了他們對於強化被害人家屬權益的九大訴求那麼當然其中特別是有關於強化被害人訴訟參與權的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8381.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8403.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
事項那我認為很重要這本性未來也會負責任的提出相關的修法可是呢這當中其實強化被害人訴訟參與權不見得只是這個一定要透過修法有些事情似乎是司法院你現在就可以立即進行改善的譬如說被害人及家屬在法庭上面的席位的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8404.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8431.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我想王富明或許也知道其實在過去已經有非常多的被害者家屬團體以及也有一些司法事務界的人士都紛紛的提出對於整個在法庭上面的席位的安排非常不利於被害人以及被害人家屬那麼這個部分其實是司法院直接修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8432.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8442.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
法庭席位布置規則就可以改善的不知道司法院這些年來有聆聽到這些民眾的聲音嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8444.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8468.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
有沒有試圖的要去改善現在的席位這個部分因為目前的訴訟關係它還是一個三角結構就是在刑事部分檢察官跟那個被告這邊還有那個法院是那個審判者那那個被害人他當然他有他的地位可是因為他並不是當事人所以說他不坐在這個檢察官這個席位 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8470.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8473.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
對我們看一下國民法官因為現在你們的這個位置基本上對不起回到前一頁在刑庭的部分的話這個被害人及他的帶領是坐在類似證人鑑定人的位置但是在國民法官的這個法庭的配置上面來講的話他現在是坐在檢察官的後面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8488.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8515.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這也是大家會認為說你們當時在修國民法官法的時候有說要參考日本跟德國的制度但日本跟德國的制度我們看下面圖在日本很清楚啊他的被害參加人就坐在檢察官旁邊啊那在德國法上基本上也是參加這個檢察官旁邊或者是說是他如果說看他如果說真的變成證人身份有時候會在證人的席次但是總是不是在檢察官的後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8515.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8539.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我覺得這個部分會有什麼困難嗎現在就是如果被害人他透過那個訴訟參加的話那他會取得程序上那個地位對他這時候就會坐在檢察官的旁邊就如同這個圖就如日本的配置嗎對那可是如果說是他就是這個作為一個被害人的家屬他如果沒有參與訴訟的話那麼他 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8542.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8569.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
可以就是應該是他變成成為證人是不是就是他如果說有可能證人或者是說是他可能不具這個身份但是他就只能夠坐在一般的旁聽席就要看他程序上那個地位他有可能那一天是用那個證人身份出現那或者只是說就是這個被函陳述意見那但是只要他只要他就是有那個參與訴訟的話他就會取得程序上的地位 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8570.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8597.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那所以我想很多被害人的家属可能不太知道在程序上面要怎么去进行那么事实上就是我们也听到很多被害人家属团结反应他们认为在整个诉讼进行上面变成被害人家属的时候他们连发言权都没有那么更何况就是说在位置的配置上面来讲也是凸显出对他们的地位的不尊重那么我认为说其实司法院这边应该要这个检讨要改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8598.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8611.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
包委員那個我們就是刑事案件在那個準備程序的時候第一庭一開始的時候其實都有告訴那個就會發一個這個訴訟權益告知給被害人跟告訴人那這裡頭其實就有告訴他們說他們可以透過那個訴訟參加來進入到這個訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8617.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8628.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就是有沒有可能未來把他們的位置然後放在檢察官的旁邊或是更靠近對不對讓大家會感覺他們的地位是平等的我想因為這個議題我希望就司法院是不是可以給我一份報告檢討報告然後參閱日本跟德國的做法是如何然後可以來就現在我剛講的這個司法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8639.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8650.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
法院的這個席位規則然後進行修改提一個方案出來吧好不好我們要尊重這個被害人還有被害人家屬他們的聲音總是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8651.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8670.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
盡可能的在法律的地位 法庭的地位上面給他們一個公平的待遇好 那麻煩一個禮拜給我一份報告 好 謝謝好 那我們先做會議宣告因為快11點了 所以我們待會在羅志強委員訓導完畢之後我們休息五分鐘就好 五分鐘讓官員能夠上個廁所我 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8679.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8701.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好好好沒問題那這樣子OK那應該這樣不會因為我大家都會抓在11點讓大家上個廁所不會那就在那個無效委員訓導完畢之後我們休息5分鐘好那另外就會議時間我們中午不休息我們上午的會議是持續進行至本日議程所列事項處理完畢為止好那我們接下來請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8710.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8713.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
有請法務部長還有司法院副秘書長麻煩部長副秘書長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8720.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8741.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
今天的主題是討論死刑量刑準則希望建立一套相關的判準來減少相似個案間判刑卻不同的爭議這當然是一個正確的改革方向但我今天要提一些實際的數據跟法務部還有司法院的同仁們一起討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8742.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8760.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那我先請教一下我們的司法院以刑法271條第一項故意殺人罪來看近年來判處死刑或無期徒刑的比例以及有期徒刑的平均刑度是上升還是下降司法院知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8764.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8787.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那個今年還沒有統計 那我們會後會提出數據給委員好 那我這邊有整理一部分啦是以地方法院的數據來看 2015年132個罪次裡面 判死的佔3.8%無期徒刑17.4那有期徒刑平均判刑是149.35個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8791.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8812.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那去年一到八月的數據死刑你知道是多少嗎判多少個死刑百分之多少在所有罪次裡面我告訴你零啦沒有啦那無期徒刑是19.4%啦有期徒刑平均判刑是140.41個月比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8817.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8842.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
以2015跟去年來對比的話判死的佔比從3.8降到0然後無期徒刑是從17.4提高到19.4那有期徒刑的平均判刑是從149.35個月下降到140.41個月所以看到整體刑度實際上是下滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8843.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8858.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
尤其是在死刑這個部分事實上在台灣基本上為什麼外面都說大家評價是實質廢死因為從比例跟數據來看他就是已經歸零實質廢死在判決的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8859.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8879.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那當然每一個判刑要看每個個案而定也不能完全用平均數據來去解讀不過整體趨勢來看的話就是殺人罪的刑度下降不只是判死的比例連刑期都是那這當然也是為什麼我剛剛前面講外界一直在批評說 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8881.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8909.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
實質廢死的一個問題那我再想要請教那今天排審的是刑法286條就是虐待兒少致死罪那因為這十年來就2015到2024年只有一件無期徒刑那我想請問一下司法院針對這一個所謂的虐待兒少致死罪這幾年判處有期徒刑的平均刑度您知道是上升還是下降嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8912.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8927.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這部分我們手上沒有資料可以匯後提供我們這邊也調出一些數據一樣是以地方法院數據來看的話2021年有期徒刑平均刑度是63.6個月到2024年就剩下26個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8932.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8948.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
雖然說刑法286的使用比例很低但從2015年到2024年10年總共只有57件平均一年5件多但在這近10年裡98件罪次裡無期徒刑1件 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8949.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8969.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
被判五年以上有期徒刑者18件 佔比不到兩成一年以下大概是53件 佔比是五成四那一樣也面對我剛剛前面講的問題就是說不管是地方法院判決 高等法院判決 最高法院判決那也看到觸犯虐待兒少致死的刑度都有在下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8970.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8986.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那這就說外界為什麼會有一些覺得我們似乎整個國家法制對於兒童的保護並不周全你光從形式保障來看的話就外面就有人覺得說兒童是最脆弱的最需要保護的 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8986.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9015.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
但是在刑法來去所謂的遏止對於兒童的肆虐重大的一個傷害的這種情況實際上我們的保護相對來講從這個整個的判刑的一個刑度來看外界可能就認為有所不足那這個是我看到一個問題那當然去年7月16號就已經修正有提高刑度啦但是目前還沒有適用刑法的判決出現嘛對不對目前還沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9018.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9042.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
應該是還沒有 因為時間上的關係沒有啦 因為現在還剛剛而已嘛 對不對以那個訴訟程序來看不會那麼快那所以 但是根據內政部的資料家外受虐致死人數比起113年修法前後數 修法前是零人啦那修法後是出現三個案例那去年跟今年我都有提出相關的修法版本 新的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9042.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9061.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
才剛剛一讀 還沒有納到這次審理那我的修法重點包括針對死刑對於7歲以上未滿12歲之人肆虐致死傷可以加重刑期到二分之一就是說有在刑徒的部分希望能夠解決目前實務上判刑過輕的問題那我要想請問法務部您覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9066.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9083.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
這個部長你覺得我剛剛講的這些司法院的數據不管從死刑啊從故意殺人罪乃到於虐待兒童致死罪啊你覺得這個一直在刑度一直在下降判刑的這個所謂的那個強度一直在下降我不知道法務部是怎麼看這件事情跟社會期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9084.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9102.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
是不是有落差以現行的來講的話那我們希望這個對兒童的保護一定要非常的完備那零容忍那有對一些零內或者傷害兒童甚至殺害的所以我們是認為要嚴懲不要我想這是一個形式的態度跟政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9103.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9129.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那這一次的一個凱案那我們覺得是我們對 我們也在檢視說我們的法規是不是有要更充實的一個地方所以我們也在做一個研修一個研修 所以昨日跟明天我們都有一個研修的一個會議那我們也希望把我們的研修的一個立法的方向跟各界來做一個對話那我想我們會盡快提出我們的一個版本出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9129.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9152.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那就謝謝部長,因為我在質詢的時候,我覺得你態度基本上我也有肯定,至少你要往這方向去做。那我想請教,因為上次法務部承諾三個月可以提出版本,這個承諾還是沒改變嗎?對,我們是三個月要提出,希望能夠提出。那我再問細一點,就是說修法的方向目前會包括針裂死刑嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9153.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9173.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
修好的方向對那個我們是認為對未滿7歲的兒童的零列上次我在委員會就有提到如果以零列這部分來當作殺人的方法我認為這個是要脫離那個加重結果患的一個問題認為直接進入到殺人的一個加重的一個室友那這部分我們是希望能夠有再加重的一個行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9175.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9200.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
考量嘛 死刑的部分有考量在裡面那個殺人罪如果說以這個凌劣的方式來殺人那本來就是有死刑的一個選項了嘛一個刑度 那這部分我們會往這部分來做一個再加重的一個考量因為這個那個加重結果犯因為究竟不是殺人的一個範例下去凌劣的方式有可能是傷害或者甚至用殺人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9200.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9222.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
直接故意或間接故意這個都有那如果說有這部分的話我們就納入了殺人的範疇來做一個規範反正基本上方向跟部長已經有一些基礎共識啦但是修法上法務部就是往這個方向怎麼去更周延去看對因為還有那個不得假釋這部分我們也有納入做這邊的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9223.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9238.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那我最後再提醒一下我們根據衛福部的資料統計2024年兒童跟少年光家內跟家外受虐致死人數就高達33人是9年新高33人說真的看了都很難過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9239.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9259.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為小孩子其實最沒有能力保護自己結果他們卻面對到這麼大的一個風險你說光2024年就有33個在家內跟家外受虐致死其實坦白講真的是非常讓人家心痛所以換言之不是只有一個凱凱他其實有去年就這個2024年就有33個凱凱 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9262.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9290.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
而且是九年來的新高那這個嚴重程度當然不完全說今天透過我們法務部或法院的判決還包括我們整個政府對於所謂的受虐兒童的保護的機制都要做系統性的檢討跟反省因為真的不能讓這樣的一個悲劇一直在發生在兒童身上那最後我要講就是說事實上目前兒少的虐待事件其實真的蠻嚴重那政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9291.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9305.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
應該要拿出足夠的魄力跟決心 那請我們的法務部也好 司法院也好 一起加油好 謝謝您 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言吳思堯委員發言完畢之後 我們休息五分鐘好 謝謝主席 有請複密還有部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9319.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9321.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
麻煩副秘書長 部長委員長好 大家辛苦了大法官憲法法庭針對台灣沒有廢除死刑我們死刑是核限的這個解釋出來之後這段時間立法院司法法治委員會對於廢死的議題我們討論過非常多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9345.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9373.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那我認為每一次的對話都非常的珍貴我們可以再透過我們的詢答清楚的讓社會知道台灣沒有非死死刑是核限的下一頁所以說113宪判8的結果是核限性的解釋但是要強化法律的程序跟制度的保障這些部分我已經論述過N次了我也相信台灣社會有更正確的認知下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9375.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9404.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那立法院要做的是什麼呢跟行政部門要做的是什麼呢就是第一個要尊重憲法法庭的判決這第一件事沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面針對憲法所規定的解釋憲法的唯一權力就是司法院的憲法法庭所以沒有人可以來站在憲法法庭判決的對立面所以立法院行政部門要做的第一件事情就是要尊重憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9404.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9433.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
的結果而不是用任何方式要去推翻它去挑戰它所以我們要做的除了尊重之外就是要啟動必要的制度配套這是我們眼前另外一個要務不管是如何避免冤獄的產生如何來防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責而且來推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化我也講過N次這是我們立法委員跟行政部門的工作下頁所以說我們要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9434.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9450.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
針對刑法 刑事訴訟法 法院組織法監獄刑刑 刑刑法我們要謹慎的來修法而在修法的過程持續不斷的跟社會溝通跟人民對話所以這些都在進程當中嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9451.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9466.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以我要說的是尊重憲法法庭的判決不要亂帶風向給社會不必要的錯誤認知立法委員要做的是做好我們的本業修法下一頁但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9469.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9488.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
在野黨要提出反Face的公投消費公共議題為了他的政治目的公投要綁罷免這一頁PPT我也拿出來用過N次而當中選會認為在野黨所提出的兩個公投案一勝一負 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9490.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9516.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
有通過也有駁回不成立的這就代表中選會對於公投案行使本身合理不合理合法不合法一勝一負嘛所以合三言一公投是可以進行的但是反廢死公投因為這個違反公投法的規範中選會予以駁回在野黨的委員現在要對中選會提起行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9517.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9532.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們都尊重下一頁但是呢還是要說請把憲法讀好憲法78條的規定司法院有解釋憲法的唯一權利大法官釋字185號 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9534.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9549.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
憲法增修條文的12條還有公投法的第二條都要服從憲法的規定所以憲法的解釋等同於憲法公投並不能夠否決憲判複密是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9553.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9564.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以公投不能否決憲判那您認為現在在野黨的委員對於中選會要提起行政訴訟他們不服啊他們認為散費死的公投怎麼可以不成立呢要分享一下你的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9567.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9583.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個我們尊重那個委員他們職權的那個行使只是這個部分就是在那個除了委員剛剛所講的這些依據之外在那個限訴法38條第一項也有講就是憲法法院的那個判決呢還有拘束各機關跟人類的效力那這個機關也有實現判決內容的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9586.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9606.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以說在野黨委員所提的這個反廢死的公投我姑且不論他有沒有政治的目的要來救罷免來做政治動員我姑且不論他就是違法違憲嘛違反憲法違反大法官釋字的解釋違反公民投票法也違反憲法訴訟法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9608.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9635.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
所以說憲法解釋等同於憲法公投不能夠來否決憲判我要再一次清楚的透過我的質詢負責任的向所有的公民朋友來清楚的再次表達所以這些話我們早在在野黨執意推反廢死公投之前不聽民進黨的絕對沒問題民主不是一定要聽誰的但不聽民進黨的可以聽聽學者專家的意見吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9637.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9652.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
陳英前教授 蘇紫橋教授 林佳和副教授都提出了在在野黨推出反廢死公投之前都已經提出警示了不要把公投當作綁裝的工具當作政治的操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9653.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9681.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
此行並未違憲而是設定了更嚴苛的標準不要用公投來推翻憲法法庭的解釋更是要凸顯立法院的提案公投沒有符合明確性的原則這就是為什麼中選會依法行政未來的行政訴訟我尊重在野黨但是我還是這一句話沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9683.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9710.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我進入我第二個主題最近吵得很夯喔大家知道苗博雅市議員那她以證人的身份去出庭針對柯文哲前市長的金華城案但是呢她作為依法院的宣就是傳喚她她依法去履行她的責任可是她去出庭前卻被民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9713.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9722.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
鋪天蓋地的來進行抹黑攻擊也就是在開庭前公然的去騷擾攻擊證人這絕對是不應該在民主法治社會發生的事吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9729.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9746.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
如果有任何的證人在依法律的規定他去出庭傳喚來配合檢調的偵辦這是他公民的職責卻被惡意的攻擊騷擾怎麼辦 怎麼處理你們可以放任這種事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9761.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9774.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
沒有辦法回答因為沒有人想像會有人發生這種事情對不對只是一個去出庭應訊的提供證言證詞的證人而已會被攻擊成這個程度而這一個政黨現在還要推法庭直播啊最愛妨礙司法公正的政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9785.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9811.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
現在還打著透明公開 用民粹的操作要去推法庭直播啊 下一頁而且很離譜的喔要修法院組織法已經進附二讀在5月23號換言之 未來司法法治委員會沒有任何機會具體討論法院組織法針對法庭直播的合理性 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9812.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9821.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
正當性沒有辦法進行討論直接就在立法院要被透過表決來上路了你們以後就是要執行的人耶司法院跟法務部怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9829.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9842.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
法庭直播這件事情沒有委員會的充分討論直接淨附二讀而且我也可以預判表決前也不太有充分的發言的機會啦可能又被沒收了啦然後直接用表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9843.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9862.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
站在你們專業的司法人員 捍衛司法的獨立也一直在推動司法的透明公開的司法院跟法務部未來都是你們要執行的欸你們樂見這樣一個修法直接用禁覆二讀的方式直接被表決通過你們 這是你們最後可能以後沒有機會了一個月後就要表決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9868.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9883.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那個鮑委員那個司法院對這部分確實很疑慮因為在重大刑案就是譬如說是一項貪毒殺人這樣子的那個案件就是被害人跟鑑定人他們這個公開播送是無遠弗屆的他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9883.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9911.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
就是很容易會被那個肉搜或者是說被那個威脅那他們想到這個話他們就不敢到法庭那還有就是說可能那個有心人會利用這一種那個公開播送去製造輿論全民公審那這一些事情都是不利於就是公平審判就反而會去假透明公開知名來行使妨礙司法公正干預司法影響他獨立辦案 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9912.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9930.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
都會有這些負面的效果那還有一點就是這個是比較難以防治的就是說你知道一公開播送之後這個資料你要怎麼收回跟那個管制這是很困難的那現在自媒體那個發達就是說這個影音可能當事人會惡意的那個剪輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9930.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9953.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
然後再不到的這一些那個濫用那事實上這個以前我們都研議過2017年確實司改國是會議有這樣子的討論但是之所以這麼多年沒有辦法全面去推法庭直播就是因為學界跟實務界的意見分歧在下一頁我們即使沒有辦法去做到法庭直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9954.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9963.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這幾年來落實司法資訊的透明公開保障當事人的權益我們已經一再的在軟硬體去下手所以這段時間法官協會2017年就已經說了公開審判不等於法庭直播一定要三思啊而2025年的法官協會很嚴正的聲明說法院不是流量的秀場 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9978.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9999.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
直播並不是提升司法公信力的解方反而會造成非常嚴重的副作用下一頁女法官協會也發出了聲明切莫不要透過表決直接讓這一個沒有社會公式沒有社會公式的法庭直播直接倉促的上路它需要配套下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10002.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10016.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
減輕減改也發生了只有中國只有專制獨裁的中國才全面推動事實審的法庭直播部長現在全世界事實審的法庭直播是不是只有中國應當是吧這個是北韓是嗎那一樣都是極權國家好我最後就以 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10028.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10054.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
只有中國在推動事實審的法庭直播因為在司法欠缺獨立審判的中國它透過這種公審就是一種公審的大秀它可以利用司法的公審大秀來做到它的政治目的它能夠用此來恫嚇人民進行政治宣傳所以說台灣要向中國學習嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10056.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10060.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
台灣要向毫無司法獨立審判的中國學習跟進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10064.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10087.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我希望未來我們還有機會好好討論法庭直播這個議題否則在5月23號已經禁覆二讀6月23號司法法治委員會委員會中心主義被沒收被踐踏我們這些專業的司法法治委員沒有機會在這裡就教於你們沒有辦法跟法界、實務界討論了直接就用表決來決定了我希望司法院跟法務部你們要站在你們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10092.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10110.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
擁有的倡議的力量去讓社會知道公開透明不是全程直播尤其在法院我們除了對於公共知的權利的公益權的捍衛我們更要確保訴訟當事人參與者他的權利你們真的我要提醒你們不要認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10120.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10147.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
立法院表決是立法院的事以後都是司法人員你們要承受莫大的壓力整個司法公正可能會受到莫大的影響跟癱瘓好嗎 不好意思我佔用多一點時間只剩下一個月不到的時間立法院就要強行表決了絕對是非常serious的事情我在這裡提醒好 謝謝主席 謝謝大家好 謝謝剛剛我跟衛福部次長 呂次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10149.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10170.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我剛剛說那個要跟你要的那個東西齁我那個時間講錯因為我們上個禮拜就發文給你們了所以說上個禮拜有跟你們說兩個禮拜嘛阿所以兩個禮拜起算是上個禮拜就起算所以這禮拜要麻煩你們給我因為那個資料應該不會很難我們上週就發文過去了好再麻煩次長謝謝次長好那我們現在依照剛剛宣告休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10557.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10559.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
主席,麻煩我們的旅次長跟矯正署長矯正署署長還有次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10585.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10586.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
次長和署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10598.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10620.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
兩位早安那署長我先問你就是說我在4月初事上有對少年矯正輔導那個議題呢質詢過那也跟矯正署索取書面回覆的報告那今天剛好我覺得今天衛福部也有人來所以我希望說能夠再針對逆境方案跟兩位在做討論那 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10622.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10629.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
逆境方案目前仍然是定期性的方案計畫第一會期的時候保護師有回覆我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10631.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10655.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
會朝向長年期的計畫去規劃可是現在實務上還是有很多意見都指出因為社工是方案委託不具有法定的權限在執行少年跟家庭處遇工作時的時候常常因為沒有權責所以處處碰壁所以特別今天我要提出兩種類型的就是失蹤兒少跟司法矯正少年的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10657.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10683.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
首先想問署長目前各校的訪視時段是不是有統一的規劃每個月的名額是不是依照學生的數量去進行調整跟委員報告我們針對這個少年的部分他從入校之後我們原則上三個月內會做一些相關的調查包括他有沒有需要做一些家庭知識三個月內嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10685.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10702.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
少年出校之後一年內我們會做後追這個後追可能是針對說他將來包括說他的就業就學或是有些就醫就養的問題我們會做一些協助提供一些平台資源的挹注 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10704.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10729.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
事實上上次質詢的時候我就有提過仿視空間跟機制的規劃不夠友善的問題矯正署也回覆我書面報告說我還是認為實務上遭遇的困難無法透過矯正署說的充分聯繫來解決我認為有需要有個明確的機制才會有效改善問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10730.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10731.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
在2022年CRC被國際委員審查的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10749.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10773.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
他的主席Duke他也講說一定要有比較多的時間讓他們跟家庭有互動甚至社工有互動未來歸戶社區的可能性才會比較高可是你這樣的像端平每個月甚至都無法讓每一個學生都有至少一次的訪視機會更不願讓家長委託社工寄送零用或者是會客的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10774.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10803.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那個菜那這個問題必須要盡快解決署長你可以承諾這個問題要去處理嗎是 報告委員上次委員你有執行過我們回去有請我們紹角校還有相關的來做改進那我們所知道的是有一些社工他可以透過公務接見我們都會配合來做相關的時間的調整還有空間的提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10804.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10833.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
比較合適做一些輔導的這個部分我們都有在努力改進所以你這邊如果處理完之後是不是也確定要這樣做那是不是可以給我一個書面報告再來我想問次長目前歷經社工在失蹤兒少的收案聯繫的處遇上是否各縣市的結案的指標都有掌握而從地方政府單位收案後是不是能夠充分去掌握失蹤兒少的相關資訊整體的服務過程需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10833.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10833.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10835.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10863.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
報告委員我們現在都有一個定期聯繫的那個機制包括就是說跟矯正署這邊還有另外有一個就是跟地方政府這邊的一個整個權責上的一個督導我們都有一個協調機制可是我不知道就是說我現在聽到的實務狀況是你剛剛講只是說有機制可是我問的是時間到底甚至結案的指標有沒有掌握因為各地方政府從接獲家長報案甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10865.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10892.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
轉介到禁案到派案的時間都不一定有的可以快速一週內派案有的需要將近三個月的時間那我認為這個時間間隔不應該這麼久因為這段時間兒少的狀況恐怕會有很大的變化也可能會造成非常的危險而且對於收案的逆境社工來說恐怕也沒有權收集到相關的資訊可以協助他去聯繫廚藥本來是要派案社工去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10893.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10911.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
而且沒有任何資源可以提供兒少協助只能被動的接受這樣的狀況甚至未開案的結案指標設計部分單位因為失蹤兒少家案家的服務指引的規定就變相認定如果一個月內找不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10912.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10941.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
沒有辦法好完成調查評估的話就自己結案了有些是這樣做的等個案出現時就並不會重啟調查還上去持續再通報而且順利在一個月內找到人才能真正的做那個調查評估以後續的處遇介入所以這部分是不是我認為需要請市長這邊去協助檢視跟精進各縣市執行的時間的個案管理流程跟結案指標這個可以承諾做到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10942.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10968.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
包委員非常感謝委員剛剛所點出這些問題我覺得這個如果說有超過三個月然後我想這個確實會對你看有的快到一週有的事實上要到三個月我覺得這個落差真的很大甚至有的一個月就給他結案找不到人就結案有的事實上找不到人三個月結案這各縣市的做法不太一樣最後我上次也有提到耳哨精神醫療資源的問題了法務部也很誠實的回覆我說目前的困境在於我們的醫師員額的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10970.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10973.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們會跟衛福部來隨時做一些溝通聯繫來盡量做一些改善保障這些少年的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10996.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11020.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
目前衛福部也有推動嚴重情緒行為 身障者精神醫療就醫的障礙改善計畫我知道今天新建師的專委也有來也麻煩你們提出書面報告說明目前跟矯正學校合作整個配合的狀況是什麼是不是有做外展服務以及目前的推動進度那最後大家就是期待我對 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11022.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11042.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這個兒少年的輔導服務我主張可不可以完善各校的訪師機制上次已經有質詢過有沒有一個明確的流程跟配套來提供少年跟家庭處於工作的具體支持否則一旦他出了社區的話從高結構走到低結構的話沒有辦法讓社工在社區接得住小孩我覺得藥頭跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11044.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11067.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們的幫派比我們搶小孩搶得更快第二個是讓全面檢視跟精進各地方的政府我覺得處理失蹤兒少的個案管理流程跟我們的結案指標那就要麻煩次長這邊還有快速佈建兒少精神醫療資源來加強跨單位的合作再麻煩兩位那麻煩這兩週內是不是兩邊都可以給我書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11068.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11072.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
好 謝謝委員我們回去我們趕快來評委委員好 謝謝次長好 謝謝署長感謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11096.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11097.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
剛剛發言的吳思堯又再吳兆堯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11125.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11142.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
他竟然說苗博雅當證人來北院開庭的時候有民眾黨的民眾攻擊他嗎?有嗎?民眾黨群眾跟支持者小草都在對接啊他根本碰不到證人啊有這個事嗎?不是有在造謠嗎?有嗎?你對民眾黨這麼嚴重的指控 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11155.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11178.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
是要症狀澄清 第二個他那天去幫柯文哲講了不少話啊包括看電光底的時候他直接講啊 那個呈現的他說柯文哲 柯市長不是一個混亂搞的人啊我們很多民眾黨的人不只沒有攻擊他 還讚美他啊幫柯文哲有講公道話啊 幫柯文哲清白啊吳思堯不要再造謠了吳思堯剛一還造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11183.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11209.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
他說啊 全世界法庭直播只有中國 是這樣嗎美國沒有嗎 美國沒有的話怎麼會有強奴在那邊逮捕了那個世紀大直播呢英國也有啊加拿大也有啊上次我都已經打臉他了他說要直播要發掉600多億600多倍的這個謊言吧我們立法院的直播 每看 大家每天都在看每天都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11212.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11236.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們大概一年就是一億嘛上次我已經拆穿到謊言今天還來說什麼 還在造謠只有中國大陸有那強尼戴普那個大司機的直播是怎麼回事美國有啊 英國有啊更重要的 更重要的我們為了這個事情做過兩次的大型民調大型的民調喔都是超過七成以上都贊成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11238.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11254.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
而且你的以前蔡英文的司法國事會議已經通過啦你今天是怎麼樣 無私來打臉蔡英文是不是這不是表決的問題 我們也可以充分的討論可是請不要一直造謠好 我今天要來談凱凱案 讓人家痛心的凱凱案這個事情讓他悲痛的是一個才一歲半的小孩 受到那麼樣的凌內 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11267.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11272.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
結果呢 現在社會除了悲傷之外 有去補破網嗎我去看了所有的資料我們的 內同的這個事件 越來越多然後這個刑度每次一判都越來越低這樣司法會讓民眾可以信任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11291.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11313.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以我們要回應民意不只是很多民眾上街去抗議的高達14萬人連署喔要求要增加內而致死要增加死刑今天台灣民眾黨也提出了修正動議我們要求增列以後如果內而致死要增加死刑剛剛部長是說法務部最後提案子也是往這方向走對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11323.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11345.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這部分那個零列的話那個應該重點不是在如果以零列的一個方式來達到殺人的一個目的那這部分我們認為是在立法的選擇可以再做增定的加重的一個處罰我們可以另外在因為零列的部分有些是在傷害有些單純的沒有造成傷害那有些是他要 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11346.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11372.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
以他當殺人的一個結果那我想這個整個一個致死的這一部分那個我們都可以來研修來考量考在意見上禮拜的這個公聽會嘛還有今天整個部長這個回答看起來是王哲鋒這樣在說啦我們希望早一點落實我們不允許不允許這個內閣這個事件越來越多然後刑度竟然是越來越低的我們一定要盡力去矯正另外我來幫吳宗憲吳主席問這個問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11375.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11395.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
中憲在上個禮拜五二七的時候司法法治委員會當庭告發公務員涉犯刑務法第129條一流克扣罪中憲那天直接跟法務部當場就告發了嘛 對不對這很嚴重是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11396.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11422.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
行政院違法亂紀違反三大法財政收支劃分法已經訂了說不能夠今年度的補助款不能比去年低結果你砍了636億當然就比去年低啊違法啊第二個我們在立法院審的時候也清清楚楚講只有對中央跟首屬機關根本就不能碰到這個地方的事情結果他現在已經砍了第三個違法去年8月就已經要各個縣市政府編預算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11424.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11441.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
編完之後各個議會都通過了三大違法違法亂紀更嚴重的出犯了刑法129條一流客戶罪那中線上禮拜已經當場告發了嘛現在辦了嗎這個已經函請那個太高檢署來處理了處理中了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11442.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11462.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
OK 這事情要快辦因為這個影響到他那個砍掉的預算是跟各個地方政府跟人民的社會不利牽扯到很多老人家跟那個長輩跟那個小孩子的還有教育費用跟基礎建設那影響太大了這事情要快點辦另外我再問你一個不要雙標問題李俊逸啊 經參秘書長請辭之後啊那法務部現在辦了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11469.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11493.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這部分有告發了 跟北檢告發那這部分台北地檢署有在偵辦中今天的新聞說你們在偵辦你們現在是在調那個什麼里程數啊我問你一下 不然我問你一下你們最近這個大搜索大搜押這個背信罪跟現在李靜莉碰到這個事情他這個應該是背信跟侵殺嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11494.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11519.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個可能有涉及到這部分的一個情形當然以以前的公測適用可能有偽造文書、侵占詐欺北檢等等這部分到底有沒有這部分北檢在偵辦中司法天平不能夠傾斜 不能雙標我剛剛就是問一個最簡單的問題 一般民眾一定問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11522.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11546.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
你在大搜索跟大搜押的偽造文書跟相對這一邊的你建立這一邊的侵占跟背信哪個最比較重法定是一樣最高是一樣行者這邊一定比較重結果比較輕的這邊已經大搜索大搜押那麼多人了這邊現在看起來輕輕的到現在還在辦什麼在查那個里程數 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11548.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11567.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個檢查就是依他的偵查計畫 這部分我沒辦法去干涉指導你不用干涉啦 就是說不要讓民眾很清楚感受到你是雙標的不要雙標 把他碰到民進黨的時候轉彎一個是雙標嘛 不要碰到民進黨的時候轉彎這樣嘛這標準就是要一致 我跟你講 你的天平傾斜 民眾就會看得到嘛OK 那不是 OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11572.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11598.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好啦 最近那個 老師講司法我們一定要強調司法是人民一個很重要正義的防線啊 雖然現在民調這麼低所以我已經苦苦撲心提過好幾次了所以我們也是希望給司法一個純正的辦案空間嘛那那個包括什麼偵查審判都是一樣對 保定 辦案空間一定是會的全民都會支持 立法院一定會支持不過不要讓人民覺得你是雙標碰到民進黨就轉彎民調已經那麼清楚跟你講那麼多民眾已經上街頭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11599.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11615.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們都有歷史定位啦我覺得你現在是一個大家長我覺得你要留下好的歷史定位加油謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員再下一位我們請陳培瑜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11626.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11633.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
好 謝謝主席 那先有請司法院還有法務部 謝謝麻煩複密還有部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11637.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11660.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
好 針對剛剛張祺凱委員的造謠我要公開的說在5月19號台灣民眾黨中央組織部的臉書上面寫著集結一場苗頭不對的司法對決正式開打第二張圖卡搭配就是520禮拜二早上10點台北地檢署站出來這個是你們民眾黨自己的臉書你可能好 來我要回到我自己的議題上 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11663.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11690.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
在立法院這一年感覺很大的辛苦就是別人只要一直潑髒水我們要一直說道理好來謝謝你們我非常好奇主席為什麼一直在排相關議題喔從法體公投辦公廳會到現在專題報告那既然要談死刑我們就來好好談一談第一個我想要問喔沒有廢死何來實質廢死我想問兩位就你們的法律專業我下這個標題有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11692.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11717.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我認為既然台灣現在沒有廢死 何來所謂實質廢死法官在那個憲判八裡面主文就宣示了 就是死刑它並不違憲的是 好 我們再來往下看喔事實上在台灣從中華民國刑法立法以來一直到目前為止從來沒有一天有廢除死刑 請問我以上說的是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11719.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11735.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
是好那在113年宪判第8号判决也认定所谓的死刑是有条件核限也就是并没有违宪而核限的条件意思就是我们要慎重因为死刑没有try and error的空间以上的论述对不对 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11736.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11752.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
是好如果是這個論述我們往下來看我們現在看到藍白還有意見的一致決我認為如果放在所謂憲判的主文裡面也就是說這個是憲法解釋的核心見解好那憲判解釋出來我們可不可以認同為他為憲法的高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11754.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11779.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
是好沒有錯以上我就說這一年在立法院很辛苦我們得一直說道理那我們就來好好說以上我要請問法務部我的這個問題非常非常簡單其實答案也都已經公佈了法務部跟您做事時的確認在113年憲判8號的判決之後部長我們在今年年初是不是仍然有簽准並且執行死刑你只要告訴我yes還是no |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11780.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11795.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
有在今年的1月16日有執行也就是說憲法法庭判決的結果並沒有影響到死刑的執行對不對法務部依然可以合憲的執行死刑依法執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11796.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11825.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
好依法執行沒錯我剛說依法執行好謝謝部長來下一張我想要繼續請問喔再跟你做另外一個事實的確認你們在今年年初做了一件事情叫做修正死刑執行規則而且呢整個看起來方向是變得更為嚴格意思就是說原本死刑有很多暫緩執行的條件跟申請但是你們讓這個暫緩的申請跟執行變得更加嚴格對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11826.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11851.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
更加的一個合理因為從109年那個執行史行規則修訂之後呢是那我們各界聲音也是很多那我們也辦了四次的座談座談就是各界的一個意見也就是說你們的修正必須跟國人交代的是我們並沒有朝向寬鬆甚至沒有朝向廢死的方向來處理這是我解讀對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11852.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11878.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
是更合理的一個方式也就是沒有變得更寬鬆喔沒有變得要廢死喔對嗎沒有要廢死好我再次強調嘛因為現在有很多輿論有很多論述我認為是在導向錯誤的論述所以在公開的質詢謝謝您剛的回覆也就是我們並沒有往這裡去走對嗎這個是更合理的因為制造那個整個也配合大家的一個往那意見是能夠再執行實行更合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11878.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11899.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好那下一張也就是說在憲法法庭判決結束之後我們來看這個新聞仍然有地方法院做出死刑判決我再強調一次這是在憲判法庭做出判決結果之後而且這是聯合報的媒體他自己就寫了釋憲後來首判死理由曝光 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11900.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11920.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
也就是說我剛剛的論述跟您的回答是一致的也就是說現判後的死刑判決依然在進行而且從來沒有停止廢除死刑這件事情也就是我認為如果我們剛剛講的一切都是對的那怎麼會有現在有人在炒作所謂實質廢死您怎麼看這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11922.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11934.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
自從就是113年先判八字號判決出來之後呢事實上有兩件就是有馬國馬來西亞籍大女生她那個那個那個殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11935.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11958.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那個這部分一二審都是判有罪那個二審是判有罪另外那個高雄地院那審理那惡靈那個無性的一個被告那這邊把鄰居夫妻殺死的這件也一審判死這都是在憲判八字判決之後的判決那可見那個這部分有實務上的一個兩個一個案例的一個實行的一個判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11958.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11983.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
謝謝部長說明的很清楚接下來我想請問司法院我們不要就個案來評判好不好我們我想請教司法院司法院你們認為在憲法法庭判決之後法院所做出的這個死刑判決是合理的嗎我不是說個案這樣判而是說我們本來就可以繼續做出死刑判決對不對是就是在那個憲判八底下所要求的這一些不管是程序或是實體的那個檢驗上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11984.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12009.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
所以兩位講的都非常非常清楚我們來看下一個這個是上一頁我剛剛提出來的一個案件聯合報報導這個新聞案件高雄地院的判決我還有附上判決字號大家有興趣可以自己去查在這個判決當中就明確的記載了憲法法庭判決的內容甚至他提到憲法法庭判決的見解當中認定死刑是核限的但是因為相關資料太多我就不再贅述我想要繼續請教兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12010.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12039.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
既然憲法法庭判決認定死刑是核限的而在憲法法庭判決過後如同我們剛剛對過的資料法院可以繼續判處死刑而法務部依然可以簽准死刑還有相關的死刑規則我們也都去調整了那怎麼會有繼續這樣的言論叫做實質廢死我真的覺得很莫名其妙那我認為扯出這樣的言論真的是法盲理盲邏輯盲怎麼說我不要到下一頁我想要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12040.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12049.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
之前藍白修法修了憲法訴訟法加高了門檻讓大法官人數不足那我可不可以說藍白是實質癱瘓憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12052.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12080.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好你們微笑沒關係這是我個人的見解我認為如果我們今天在立法院要理性認真的討論這個事情那我是不是也可以這樣說當然這是我的見解我就不讓你們回答我只是要說這件事情我們確實需要跟國人有更多的溝通跟討論好下一張那死刑一字決不是重大政策可是藍白繼續裝睡覺不行甚至在禮拜二的程序委員會當中我們看到藍白提出行政訴訟來 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12082.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12100.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
在過去我們針對這個案子其實民進黨委員都努力的論述可是我們一直提醒這個案子有問題這個案子有問題那我剛剛已經提醒了公投出來的結果它是法律未接可是憲判法庭的判決是憲法未接 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12101.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12128.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
就一個國中生的公民課上完以後他應該都會知道憲法跟法律未接是截然不同絕對是憲法的效力高於法律的效力對嗎我認為這是一般國中生都會知道的事情可是如果我們來看過往在台灣曾經實行過的公投還有44748號解釋關於同婚還有後續的很多人提出的反同公投其實已經示範過一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12129.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12158.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我認為藍白是忘記或者是不敢想起來我其實還是不知道但我們真的認為他們不聽就是不聽創造出非常多錯假的訊息這件事情我認為非常非常的遺憾我也想要跟兩位討論我認為是不是要廢除死刑可以被認定是重大政策可是所謂的死刑以治絕事實上已經涉及到比較技術性比較細節的項目它不會是所謂重大性政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12158.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12174.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
也就是公投如果我們要談的是這個事情又回到創製或者是覆決我都認為是有問題的我想要快速跟兩位請教你們怎麼看好啦我不要為難你們我自己往下說我剛已經說了下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12175.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12190.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
在禮拜二程序委員會我們看到這個提案了我認為藍白相關提案被中選會打臉我認為已經很丟臉了可是我想要問更荒謬的是現在還要提起行政訴訟我自己也是立法院的議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12191.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12220.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
對於國人來說 不管藍白 綠我們都是立法委員假設這個行政訴訟真的告下去了然後我們也輸了我們會怎麼丟自己立法院的臉我其實現在還在想像那個可怕的境況喔我非常非常的擔心好 下一張死刑這件事情喔 我在上一次質詢的時候或者是之前在討論的時候 我就說慎重非常的重要人命關天這件事情非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12222.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12240.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
藍白在很多方面我都已經不知道過去做十幾年親子教育的我要怎麼去教家長讓家長去教小孩今天是六四在中國今天沒有六四今天叫做五月三十五號沒有六四我再說一次今天在中國不會有六四是五月三十五號 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12242.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12268.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
在台灣 有一群人不敢面對的輕蔑人命 罔顧人命不顧正義 不顧公正很多事情到現在 依然沒有說清楚 講明白也沒有人對相關事情道歉在台灣就是白色恐怖 就是戒嚴很多人的生命就此犧牲相關的協商會議當中 我還記得有一次喔我想要談這個事情 藍白就站起來走人了我猜想他們不敢想起來 不敢面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12269.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12290.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
而在今天談死性疑似覺這件事情上我想要最後用這張投影片要提醒大家人命關天這件事情非常非常的重要不管你站在哪一方我認為每一個人的性命都一樣的重要而慎重這件事情絕對是非常非常重要再加上兩位剛剛給我的回答非常的清楚我們並沒有往那個路上前去我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12291.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12308.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
在憲法判決之後相關的案例還是有判處死刑不僅可以簽准可以執行我想台灣這件事情我們應該要繼續合理的討論以上好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝那下一位我們請王育民委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12321.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12341.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
謝謝主席 我們有請保護部 曾部長麻煩部長委員好部長 我就直接問你一個問題你贊不贊成凌虐兒童致死最高刑度可以到死刑我想凌虐會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12343.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12370.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
致死我認為我們認為有很多的一個太陽如果以凌劣的手段來當殺人的一個方式的話我認為這個不是致死的問題這已經進入到那個殺人的一個範疇我們認為以未滿7歲這個兒童還被凌劣用凌劣的方式來殺人我認為應該要另外的立法來做一個比271條的殺人罪更重的一個刑度我們認為這個我們沒辦法去容忍這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12371.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12385.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那所以我們的態度是這樣當然是以那個286那個是可以來做一個演繹的那所以部長你認為應該要怎麼修我們就直接談怎麼修因為現在委員的版本有提286的也有271的但剛剛你說應該要訂一個比271更重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12390.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12415.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
如果是淋虐七歲以下的幼童淋虐致死的話那應該要放在哪裡呢你們現在我相信你們一定有討論過事實上這個議題也不是因為最近的虐童案才受到關注過去就有很多兒童受虐致死的案件所以立法院我在第八屆第九屆的時候都有討論過法務部一向是反對的就是沒有想要增進死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12415.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12434.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
但這次的案件又讓民意再次沸騰所以我相信部長你也感受到強大的民意的這樣的一個訴求那法律就是要服務人民嗎如果說我們現在想要去遏止這一種用凌虐的手段然後導致幼童死亡的這一些加害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12434.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12458.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
當他知道他在法律上面必須付出相對非常大的一個代價的話我認為這樣的一個修法就是有其必要性那因為法務部一直說你們要研議因為這個議題也不是現在才發生你們過去就研議過我就直接請教部長你認為如果286 271現行可能都不是修法要另外再增加的話要加在哪裡在我們的刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12458.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12486.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
在刑法我們有一個思考這個方向因為我們現在昨天6月3日跟明天6月5日都要做一個行修的以及協商的召開的延伸的一個會議是那目前我們把我們的想法好 你說做那個那我們想法大概整個立法方向就是剛才我跟委員報告過的對未滿7歲的兒童我們他以零列當作殺人的一個手段是把零列要殺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12487.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12509.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
用零列一開始計三的規制零列它發生死亡的結果那這部分我們在打算是不是可以另外再另一條的一個法條來做單獨的加重的一個規定就是另立一個單獨的條文譬如說單獨的條文就像我們殺害執行協定遵信署也加重的條文那是不是我們這個殺人罪再加重的規定我們再朝這個立法的一個方向來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12511.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12537.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那這樣我想這部分可以更加落實保護的一個兒童那另外各委員本來有說286的加重結果那這邊我們都尊重那我想這部分我們拿出來這個條文我們拿出來就做一個行修的會議以及延伸會議的討論我們就會拿出來做一個一定的討論那你什麼時候會有結果因為事實上這個如果大家有共識上次那個委員會的時候委員有要求我們在三個月內提出嘛那我們就盡快來處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12539.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12555.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
你是說你明天就要再開另外一次會議那個是延伸是我們法部內部那因為我們還要再預告還要再報行政院來做一個審查那這個期間我們希望就是上次委員會有要求說我們在三個月內要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12556.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12584.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
這個部分我希望能快則快就是如果你們已經有個共識他可以用另立條文的方式我相信這個是符合社會的期待而且希望可以加速推動過去在立法上面不是說一定行政院可以審得多慢要快的話行政院其實也很快我坦白講只要法務部你們不反對專家學者大家有共識我想立法院也一定會支持就像你今天看到這麼多委員提出這麼多的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12585.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12602.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
他目標就有一個 我們不再容忍 凌虐兒童致死的這一些加害者他以為在刑法上面 他是一個比較輕的刑度他以為國家的法律不會苛於他更嚴格的這樣的一個刑責就是這種僥倖的心態 我們絕對是沒有辦法接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12606.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12620.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
所以也藉著這樣的修法讓大家有一個很正確的意識幼童是我們每一個成人都應該去保護的而不是去傷害的對象如果有人用這一種傷害凌虐幼童的方式而導致他失去生命很抱歉這跟殺人無異 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12623.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12643.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
你的刑責一定是跟殺人罪一樣最高可以到死刑我覺得如果台灣透過這樣一個修法事實上也是正式跟社會做一個很嚴正的宣告幼童大人的責任只有保護誰都不應該去傷害所以我覺得這樣的一個法義如果透過再次的修法可以很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12643.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12669.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
就是跟社會宣告的話我相信對於未來去制止或者是防止下一個幼童被犧牲這個應該會有很正面的效果所以部長我很高興聽到你剛剛是有這樣子的一個初步的修法的方向但是我認為此事這個後面的程序雖然你們之前說三個月內但是如果你們已經夠成熟大家也有共識立法院也有支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12669.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12689.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
這一次立法院的這個會議已經延到7月底如果我們可以在7月底在這個有意義的法案上面我們既回應強大的民意然後也確保未來就是我們保護幼童國家跟刑法我們是站在一個更嚴肅的立場我們願意全力去捍衛我覺得這個是非常有意義價值的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12689.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12705.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
如果可以,我希望你們盡快加速讓這次立法院已經延會到七月底如果七月底,我們可以通過修法我相信這個對保護兒少來講是邁出了一大步可不可以加油我們就加緊努力好,謝謝部長,謝謝好,謝謝,那下一位我們請陳冠廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12728.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12732.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
你好 請部長跟副秘書長麻煩部長 副秘書長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12740.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12768.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
部長好 部長其實剛才幾位委員都有問過關於死刑的議題那現在的司法制度是否還有死刑的樣型的存在我想這個就不用再問過一次答案是是有的目前台灣的行動不僅有死刑的存在而且在今年剛才您也有回覆已經有實質執行死刑的案例在所以竟然有死刑的存在那為什麼在野黨不斷的來去推所謂的反廢死公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12769.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12771.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這個你有沒有在你心中有起過這樣的疑惑 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12775.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12797.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
死刑是合憲的在113年的宪判八字那這部分我們也在合乎合憲以及合法的一個來依法來執行死刑那這部分有執行的案例那另外在宪判八字的這些之後也有法院也有實際上判處死刑的一個案例那我想可以提供給我想這個媒體都有報導對謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12798.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12807.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我想也想請教副秘書長類似這樣子的重大的這種憲政議題你覺得這樣的議題是否適合用公投來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12813.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12828.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
因為有關於憲法法庭的判決不管是依過去的大法官解釋或者是明白在憲訴法38條都規定說有關於判決是各機關都必須要遵守的 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12829.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12845.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我們再回溯一下憲法法庭在13年限制第8號的判決中他對死刑的客處還有他執行跟設置的條件不管我們對這個判決的內容有什麼看法那我們都必須要認知到憲法的法庭是具有拘束全國各機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12846.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12875.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
它也是它的位階是等同於憲法的那既然有做出這樣子的決議這樣我們國家的法治基礎我相信每一個從政者他都是要去捍衛他這個核心價值那我想要請教馮秘書長你認為這個以自決這項條件在執行上面有沒有困難它合理性的部分你可不可以跟我們分享一下這個部分沒有什麼困難而且我們在評議中其實都是一個互相說服的一個過程其實都是很長的一個過程充分討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12876.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12895.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我必須再強調我支持死刑我當然支持死刑就是正因為我們支持死刑我們要確保說每一個死刑的案件它的判決它是經過最嚴厲的最嚴格的去檢驗它但它的程序正義無懈可擊那這才是我們要努力的方向不是推動一個違背法制那引發憲政爭議的公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12897.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12911.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那我們知道說在整個法律上面整個法律的效果上當你萬一有一個錯判的狀況的話那所造成的不但是正義不得到伸張它造成的又是另外一個破碎的家庭所以我們這次死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12912.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12933.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
所以支持死刑的一個條件就是他要經過完整的程序正義那這一次不管是說一次決這個條件等等在剛才鳳斌署長也有回應到在法院那是一個互相把證據攤出來互相對話的一個過程當做有一次決的這樣子的決議的時候才能夠確保說我們的判決的品質上是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12934.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12959.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
所以既然這次實行我們就不希望我再次強調不可以有言語那要問謹慎的做法我想這也是為什麼憲法法庭當初它做出這樣的努力跟這種原則它是有它的必要性的那我希望說藉由這一次的質詢的時候讓民眾知道說我們做這些或者是說我們在這個質詢的過程中也是要讓民眾知道說什麼叫做它這個一次決的這個合理性 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12960.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12982.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
他這個合理性他不僅僅是保護我們這個受害者被害者因為我們要確保說要找到的是真正的這個肇事者或者是真兇等等的不同的情境不同的狀況所以更需要有一完整的這個程序有程序正義才有這樣子死刑的這個執行的能力好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12985.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13007.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
好 謝謝那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員張志倫 林倩其所提書面之類列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13010.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13038.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀提案條文預估宣讀時間為三分鐘那如果修正動議或附帶決議提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以立應發現場進行討論審查法條時法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座宣讀時如有已收到的修正動議亦一併宣讀宣讀後即進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13040.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13068.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
請宣讀條文中華民國刑法委員陳玲霏等提案第77條處第二項增列第4款是犯第286條獲兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第31條至第40條第44條第45條第二項及第三項之罪者其餘同性行條文委員張志倫等提案第271條處增列第4項對於未滿7歲之人以凌虐方式犯第一項之罪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13069.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13089.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
除死刑或無期徒刑除無期徒刑者不得假釋其餘同現行條文委員王玉敏等23人提案第271條除了增列第4項對於未滿6歲之人以凌虐方式犯第1項之罪者除死刑或無期徒刑其餘同現行條文委員賴世保等提案第286條除在第3項 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13092.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13120.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
及第四項分別增列死刑外其餘同現行條文委員羅廷偉等提案第286條處在第五項的手續修正為對於未滿六歲之人病因末段增列致人於死者處死刑或無期徒刑至中傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑其餘同現行條文委員王韻明等18人提案第286條同委員羅廷偉等提案委員陳廷飛等提案第286條 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13121.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13144.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
除將第一項的有期徒刑修正為七年以下及第二項的有期徒刑修正為七年以上其餘同現行條文委員張志倫等提案第286條除將第一項的有期徒刑修正為十年以上及第二項的有期徒刑修正為二十年以上罰金修正為一千萬元以下第三項及第四項分別增列死刑之外其餘同現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13145.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13166.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
國民黨黨團提案第286條處在第五項末段增列致人與死者處死刑或無期徒刑致重傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑其餘同線刑條文委員求證金等提案第286條處在第二項的默劇的罰金修正為500萬元以下第三項及第四項分別修正為 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13167.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13191.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十五年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處十二年以上有期徒刑其餘同性情條文委員葉宜仁之等提案及委員王洪威等二十一人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13191.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13220.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
第二百八十六條均同國民黨黨團提案委員柯之恩等提案第二百八十六條對照國民黨黨團提案除將第一項的默劇修正為除三年以上十年以下有期徒刑其餘同國民黨黨團提案繼續宣讀修正動議部分修正動議一件宣讀修正動議一第二百八十六條第一項第二項未修正第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13221.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13247.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
修正為對於未滿七歲之人犯前兩項之罪者依各該項之規定加重其刑二分之一第四項修正為對於七歲以上未滿十八歲之人犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處無其徒刑或四年以上有其徒刑至重傷者處五年以上十二年以下十二年下上有其徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13249.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13276.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
第五項修正為對七歲以上未滿十八歲之人犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者處無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處十年以上有期徒刑增訂第六項為對於未滿七歲之人犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑至重傷者處十年以上有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13277.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13295.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
增訂第七項對未滿七歲之人犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者處死刑無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑致重傷者處無期徒刑或十二年以上有期徒刑提案人黃國昌、吳宗憲、翁曉琳、黃宏威宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13299.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13318.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
條文已經宣讀完畢現在進行討論請問在場委員本案是不是要進行大體討論或直接進入逐條審查進入逐條那大家沒有意見那我們就進入逐條那我們併案審查中華民國刑法第286條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13321.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13343.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
繼續進行逐條討論本條是部分修正總共計處理三條那我們現在先審查排序一第77條由委員陳庭菲等17人提案那請問各位 因為陳委員沒有在場那請問各位委員有沒有意見要補充或要提出的好 中委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13349.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13372.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
第77條排序一的部分從286往報告總委員是排序一第77條今天總共處理3條7727還有286那目前處理第77條以上好那請問一下第77條的部分有沒有人要提出好那請問黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13376.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13391.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
第一個我先表達一下立場就是我是希望再拜託召委就下一次有空的時候針對不得甲式的無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13392.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13414.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
這一種刑法的選項的條文可以由委員會來加以排審因為他現在在處理的這個條文就大家關心的事情他是在77條裡面另外再多一個例外那提案的委員也沒有來那我們還有需要去處理這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13417.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13429.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
因為他這個77他是綁286嘛其他委員沒有啦那也應該可以來聚焦啦那因為提案人也沒有來啦我倒覺得可以不予修正嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13431.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13459.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
好 那請問其他委員有沒有不同意見沒有好 那本條就不予修正那另外我剛剛那個回覆一下黃國昌委員的那個問題因為其實今天我也有去思考到無期徒刑不得假釋那因為我們今天先暫時不討論因為我的想法是因為有關無期徒刑不得假釋不是只有一兩個條文的問題它其實連動的條文非常多甚至還會跟刑刑累進處於條例都會有關聯性那因為這個牽動非常的重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13459.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13482.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
因為我看到有一些委員他的草案是單就無期徒刑就直接就分級了他沒有考量到連動的條文那因為我們希望更慎重的處理這件事情所以我才會今天刻意排除掉無期徒刑在今天來討論因為光這個議題而且這是幾十年的大議題所以這個部分我想說再更加嚴謹的處理在這邊先跟黃委員報告一下這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13484.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13499.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
好 那接下來我們處理排序二 第271條有委員張志倫等17人提案及委員王玉敏等23人提案請問在場的提案委員有沒有要說明好 王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13500.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13515.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我提出來的這個271主要是因為之前修286那法務部也一直反對所以呢我們就直接想說271這邊直接殺人罪這邊可以再增加就是你零二重致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13515.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13542.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
然後一樣就是最高可以到死刑那剛剛法務部有說明他要再另立一個法條他們現在修法方剛剛部長回答我的時候是說他們要再另立一個新增的法條那我的原則是無論定在286或271或者是法務部要另立一個新的法條那我就是希望大家朝野共同支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13543.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13553.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
如果是凌虐兒童致死 最高可以到死刑這個大家有共識 可以往前進修在哪一條我都可以接受 以上 謝謝那還有沒有其他委員要補充 好 莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13555.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13581.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我在還沒有進主條跟大體基督長的意見也不會差別太大但是我在這邊也在做一個提醒就是剛主席也提到的法條它涉及到一個聯動性那你聯動性的話你說要你就沒有一併處理了可是你今天就像我今天在質詢的我就提到的你說兩公約我們去通過我們就把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13583.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13607.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
國內我們把它內國化了以後啊那變成一個國內法那你變成一個國內法我們在這個地方你把它徵定一個死刑上來會不會跟兩國論點裡面有提到你不能去徵定新的死刑這樣的一個原則有所抵觸我想這個部分也請大家一併來做一個思考是 謝謝鍾委員那還有沒有哪位委員黃委員那請教一下法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13613.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13636.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
你們說要另立一個調製立法技術的部分先放旁邊你們可能是覺得在普通殺人罪裡面針對有關於殺人的手段不要另外用相次來加以規範因為我現在看到兩個委員的提案就除了一般我們在講的故意殺人罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13638.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13666.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
他針對有關於殺害的手段前面再加一個以凌虐的方式我們先把立法形式跟立法技術的事情放到旁邊就討論實質的問題因為就立法技術跟立法形式的問題法律人員或許很在乎啦但我必須要老實跟法務部講人民根本不在乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13668.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13684.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
人民在乎的是更實際的事情所以我們以實際的事情來加以討論我們先不要管你贊不贊成在271裡面加最後一項還是你認為要用271之一或者是放在272之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13686.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13709.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
用二七二之一我先不跟你討論立法形式的問題以實質的內容來講法務部對於委員所提出來這個條文支持不支持還是有更好的處理方式這是我的第一個問題第二個問題針對有關於無期徒刑不可以假釋的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13710.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13716.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
在立法上面法務部認不認為刑法總則沒有修 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13718.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13743.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
在刑法分則就可以明定還是一定要刑法總則一併修不可以單純的透過刑法分則修訂的方式來予以處理因為這是根本的立法政策的問題因為我有發現到張志文委員以實質的內容上面來講他認為在這種情況下的無期徒刑不可以假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13745.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13769.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那等於是呼應法務部之前在我們的大法官莫名其妙做出憲判罷以後法務部說針對一些特殊殘忍的事情你們認為你們要去推動不得假釋的無期徒刑有一些特定的犯罪的類型你們要推動不得假釋的無期徒刑那法務部雖然說 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13771.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13785.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
你們東西提給行政院了那當然按照我們以前既往的經驗包括現在進行式的東西法務部提給行政院的東西非常容易石沉大海 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13786.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13802.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
研議七年以上出不了行政院也不是沒發生過而且還是經常性的發生所以現在很怕聽到的是說行政院在研議中啊研議就不曉得研議幾年啊研議到2032年以後再來處理嗎所以第二個問題行總不休直接針對在這個刑分裡面特定的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13815.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13840.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
類型因為他就殺人罪裡面他加了一個殺害的手段是以凌虐的方式做那等於是一個針對完全沒有自我保護能力的人用殘忍的方式用殘忍的方式把他殺害那這個符不符合之前法務部對台灣社會所宣示的那種重大殘忍的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13841.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13867.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
那你們也要推動不得假釋的無期徒刑這是我的第二個問題我先跟在委報告一下我覺得法務部的立場還是要講清楚因為271跟286今天修的271跟286雖然有關聯但是他們還是屬於不同型態的犯罪271的部分還是嚴守著兩個全部都是故意犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13869.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13887.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
兩個全部都是故意犯的狀況下那到286的部分就進入深水區了就是現在很多公民團體在要求的虐童致死的部分他們認為應該要進一步的加重刑罰但是我們一步一步來就271的部分先請法務部表達立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13890.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13906.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個部分因為271的部分畢竟他殺人那個部分是故意的意思嘛那286的話死亡的部分是過失所以他兩個在還是有一些差距還是剛剛黃瑋瑜所提出來這裡大概我們之前質詢的時候一直提出有這個點那這是不是請法務部能夠加以說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13908.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13931.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
主席各位委員回答委員的問題271跟286如果都要修的話那涉及到刑法的一個理論問題我們會比較贊成支持我們修271271的話本部的立場當然是認為就是說用凝劣來殺害未滿7歲小孩這當然要做一個更嚴厲的處理那我們在立法的這個方向上可以考慮我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13932.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13957.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
一般的殺人之外另外有一個獨立的犯罪類型比如你殺害直系血清中心署它是一個加重的獨立犯罪類型我們也可以比照這個模式對以寧願的方式殺害未滿7歲的小孩這個成立一個獨立的犯罪類型不同於我們刑法27110年以上無期徒刑跟死刑它比這個普通殺人罪更重它用一個獨立的犯罪類型的方式去做思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13958.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13977.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
這個比修286會好一點點286的方向基本上我們也尊重但是就286它會涉及到它是一個過失犯在那它是一個加重結果犯嘛它跟271其實不太一樣不太一樣所以我們比較prefer就是說是不是修272一個獨立的加重類型來處理的第一點回答各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13978.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14000.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
第二委員 剛剛黃委員有提到我們刑分可不可以加一個不得假釋這涉及到我們刑法總則的刑法種類的問題我們刑法總則的刑法種類其實它有明定我們現在並沒有一個刑法的種類叫做有期徒刑或無期徒刑不得假釋這種刑法種類 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14001.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14017.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
所以你要去把他刑分你會變成所有條文的刑分都後面未來都一一去加不得假釋不得假釋哪有不得假釋要逐一去檢視還有特別法呢我們特別刑法有些很重的搞不好每一條都要去加不得假釋所以我們基本上對不得假釋這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14017.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14034.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我們也是贊成的但是我們比較贊成是修在刑總在刑總在某一個特定的犯罪類型或宣告型在某一個程度以上我們就規定他不得假釋而不是規定在刑分變成一個刑法種類的爭議那個刑法修正非常龐大未來刑分非常非常的龐大 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14035.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14063.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
這第二點我再跟委員報告第三點跟委員報告就是說的確本部在不得假釋這個本部現在法案已經提到行政院也在審議中也跟各位委員報告也開過會了本部基本上對特定的重大犯罪宣告刑在一定以上的我們是行總規定就是不讓他假釋所以不得假釋這一點基本上是本部的一個重要的一個對外已經宣示過的一個政策立場所以以上三點跟各位委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14065.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14076.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
黃委員先舉手,先到黃委員市長,我們就直接討論具體的問題啦你剛還是在做抽象的立場的宣示,這樣很難推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14079.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14101.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
具體的來講放在271裡面你們是絕對反對還是可以同意這是第一個問題這是我剛剛問的立法形式的問題你剛剛還是在跟我雞同牙講嘛這個是一個特殊類型的犯罪當然是一個特殊類型的犯罪嘛但什麼時候規定不同類型的犯罪一定要規定在不同的條次裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14102.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14117.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
沒有這樣的規定我們當然在立法基礎上針對特殊類型的犯罪如果可能的話把它獨立成條這個是一個修法這個是一個修法的方式但問題是什麼但問題是一個法律案 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14119.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14135.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
從開始提推動到最後結束那要花非常久的時間了要花非常久的時間了所以我現在才在很認真的思考你先不要去跟我談是271要放在第四項還是你要另外起一條先不談 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14136.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14151.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
形式的問題,以實質的內容來講以實質的內容來講以裡面的方式對於未滿7歲的人殺害主死刑或無期徒刑這個是我剛剛問的第一個問題第一個問題法務部的立場贊成還是不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14153.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14166.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那第二個問題剛剛其實你話說一半我為什麼說你話說一半那當然嘛你如果放在新分裡面的話那當然各個新分是不是要在特殊類型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14168.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14183.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
特別嚴重的犯罪去明定去明定無期復刑不得假設假釋 那個當然就是揪到個別的條文的時候再來去處理嘛你如果永遠要執著於說法條跟法條彼此之間的橫平我老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14185.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14211.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
你回不了啦你回不了我為什麼說回不了我上次公聽會就講了嘛你現在刑分的條文真的彼此之間都有橫屏嗎你隨便自己去檢查就知道了嘛上次公聽會的時候就舉了啊就有關於在強盜罪的時候在強盜的過程當中致人於死你也是死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑啊那大家現在就覺得很困惑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14212.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14237.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
那如果你在以暴力的方式侵害財產法益在這個過程當中發生死亡的結果可以判得到死刑那你以凌虐的方式是去侵害人的身體權跟他的健康權然後發生死亡的結果不可以這樣子規定那大家就看不懂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14238.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14267.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
就立法者在做所謂的什麼罪責相當法律權衡條文彼此之間橫平的時候到底在想什麼東西你完全沒有辦法解釋得過去嘛所以還是回來一個最根本的問題刑總有規定刑的種類裡面有包括一個無期徒刑但是無期徒刑在什麼樣的狀況下可以假釋在刑法總則裡面有另外一個通則性的規定也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14268.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14279.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
不分任何類型的犯罪你只要背叛無期徒刑滿足刑法總則的這個要件原則上就有假釋的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14280.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14302.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那但是如果在刑法分則裡面在刑法分則裡面我特別的去排除刑法總則的規定也就是刑法總則只是一個一般性的規定在被宣告是無期徒刑的時候原則上滿足一些要件那接下來有可能透過假釋的審查機制有可能被假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14303.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14318.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那我在刑分的立法技術上面針對特定嚴重類型的犯罪的無期徒刑立法者明定不得假釋也就是他明文有意識的要去排除掉刑法總則那一個假釋條文的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14320.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14334.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
在目前法務部的立場針對這樣子的立法方式你們贊成或不贊成那如果不贊成的話理由是什麼我具體的問題我想再聚焦一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14337.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14364.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那是莊委員你要先講嗎然後再請法務部一併說我剛才講完再一併一併來請法務部來做說明這次的一個修法裡面我看這個憤怒那確實可以帶動改革這是好事但是基本的原則還是要掌握住這個條文放在271來修的話倒又稍微有一點道理放在286的話我就覺得是不通 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14365.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14371.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
但是也必須要去考量到就是說你在271你這樣去增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14375.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14404.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
變成是對於未滿7歲的人以凌虐的方式去犯第一項的犯罪也就是說其實凌虐的方式凌虐本來它會產生很多結果影響他的身體健康啦有可能凌虐到最後是輕傷啦有可能是重傷啦有可能是致死啦放在286那個地方會有問題放在271的話就是表明的就是說我用這個凌虐的方式我主觀上我就是要讓你死我就是要殺人嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14405.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14428.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
放在271就是主觀上就是要殺人了嘛就不用去討論286了嘛可是這樣也有一個問題在就是說那我們去把它特定出一個對於未滿7歲的人就變成說跟原來的殺人罪比他還要重原來的殺人罪是變成死刑無期徒刑10年以上那你針對未滿7歲的人就只有剩下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14428.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14458.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
更重了就變成死刑跟無期徒刑那這會有一個問題你在變我們刑法總則我看這個王富密你過去你在審判時你也非常清楚啊一個判決下來的時候我們第一個考量到的就是說你這個犯罪行為你的動機到底是什麼你的目的到底是什麼還會看看他的他的這個手段到底是什麼還有他的犯過態度是什麼還有說他那個思慮當下是什麼你這個一定下去以後你刑法57條全部都不能用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14459.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14467.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
會有這樣的一個問題啊所以這個是不是也請法國部也一併來做一個思考否則你放到271體力 對了放286完全不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14472.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14501.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
因為凌虐你放在286的話你就變成說你把故意跟過失那個界線你把它給混淆掉了完全混淆掉了也就是說前面的一個犯罪行為你到最後產生的這樣一個結果它可能是過失它可能是間接的因果關係那那個地方大家回不清啦那你既然要保每一個黨大家都要保護幼童大家都要保護這個不用懷疑啦去虐童甚至讓他致死的當然是可惡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14503.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14515.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
可惡每一個人的界線不一樣啊你們可能認為是殺掉是最可惡槍斃最可惡我不認為我認為就是官啊所以講到那個無期徒刑不得假釋那個違背法理但我又喜歡喔我又覺得合理喔讓他出來幹什麼可是你說讓他死掉會一了百了死掉他多爽啊他犯了那麼大的一個行為就砰死掉槍斃死掉了他就不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14531.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14546.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這只是滿足我們社會上的一個憤怒的情緒而已可是對刑法上我們講的原理原則完全不通啊你說到底是基於是要報復這也不是硬報啊硬報就剝奪掉而已他根本就沒有痛苦啊你說要讓他再回歸誰敢讓他回歸 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14551.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14561.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
也不是所謂的對這種急刑犯大家也不敢去用教育刑啊所以我反而會認為說應該一併說明啦你這不是只要偵查而已啦你這還要審判咧還有法官要審判的問題咧你就把它整個刑法五十七條設定出來這個幾百年的這個大家全世界在看你去看這個條文啦幾乎全世界每一個國家的刑法這一條都長得一模一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14580.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14598.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
要留給法官一個獨立審判空間嘛那你現在不是喔 你現在是 就是死刑就是無期徒刑要比殺人罪還要重這第一個道理在什麼地方我也可以講啊你殺害幼童 可不可惡 非常可惡啊殺害直系血親尊親族 殺害自己的父母親 更可惡啊法理上大家要講清楚啦不然只是大家用憤怒來帶動這個改革 還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14610.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14623.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
帶動改革很好但是呢 還是要講清楚 請法務部這個地方講清楚我是認為會衝擊到五十七條讓你再重新 大家重新 重新回去做法官案的時候看了五十七條 再到二七一定下去的時候你也不知道要怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14626.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14641.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
黃委員我想補充說明一下我想這一次的修法為什麼有這麼強大的民意其實也站出來大家其實看到了一個情況就是未滿7歲的幼童他跟成人道道地地不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14642.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14658.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
對於成人家豬在他身上任何的暴力或傷害他是毫無反抗能力所以大人的責任當然是非常的重大今天這樣一個修法一個很重要的意義是警告所有的大人就是對於孩童你只有保護之責 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14660.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14678.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
你任何人如果要對孩子去動手傷害甚至造成他的死亡這個社會上在我們的刑法上面未來透過修法我們就是宣示一個很重大的意義就是國家會保護你刑法也不允許然後告訴所有的成年人 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14678.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14704.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
你不要有任何想要動手去傷害孩子的念頭因為他那麼的幼小會因為你這個不當的行為舉措就剝奪掉他的性命我覺得這個是社會上到目前為止非常有共識的那現在看起來法務部的態度要往這個方向去做基本上我是非常贊成的就是法務部在講的更清楚如果是271也很好就在271然後你們要怎麼另立法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14705.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14725.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
因為現在感受到法務部已經接受這樣的民意了你們也認真去思考到底要怎麼立法了那就是把它講清楚要不然大家就會質疑說你的言義只是拖延喔我剛剛講過我們這次的立法院開會開到7月底如果法務部跟專家學院跟法界人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14725.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14750.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
都有共識的話 你是可以盡快送出版本司法法治委員會盡快審查 院會就可以通過在七月底之前 我想我們可以用大家的力量共同完成這樣的一個修法的工作所以我希望法務部可以再加油就這個部分 這次沒有迴避的空間大家就是認真來研議 是怎麼修的問題不是用研議為藉口不修 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14757.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14768.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
主要是要跟次郎報告一下因為次郎剛剛的意思是說修271不修286你們想法比較這樣但是這個會不會造成一個狀況就是說因為271條他是故意殺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14770.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14792.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那將來這些犯罪行為的人他會不會在凌虐致死之後他很容易就逃脫掉271條的規範然後你286又不修到時候等於是沒有處罰他這個行為了如果你要另立一個條文對於這些殷佑同的你要另立一個殺人殺殷佑同這個也有一個問題就我剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14794.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14819.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
他今天如果一直堅持說他的凝虐是前面的行為他的故意只存在凝虐他並沒有對於後面死亡他有故意的話那你等於是跳脫了271條或是你另立了條文如果你又不修286的話那變成說他這個部分反而我們這次就沒有處理到所以我才會說我個人會覺得不是只有271條的問題啦應該286是一個主要的問題因為他必須要處理後面加重結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14824.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14833.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
發生之後你要怎麼樣去處理這個是我個人給法務部的一個建議另外就是還有一個剛剛一直有提到假釋的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14835.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14861.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我從上個會期就一直有提到假釋應該要把它分級分成我們要加強它的比如說無期徒刑你假釋那假釋的話它應該要分成幾個不同的條件甚至是不是有一種無期徒刑是永久不得假釋但是現在我們會遇到一個狀況就是現行法律的問題這就是為什麼我覺得無期徒刑我在這次不拿出來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14862.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14871.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
會出現一個就是現在申請假釋是向矯正署那將來如果說我們修法的話我們對於武器徒刑得不得假釋那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14874.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14899.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這個決定的人是誰是法官還是矯正署這個我們也都要在法制上面要先釐清就是是不是我們叫讓法官去決定不得假釋或是多少年後才得假釋這是讓法官決定的只有法官可以決定那這是現在這個假釋的部分就是矯正署所以這一塊我們必須先克服我覺得這個都沒有那麼簡單而且將來可能還要再開幾場公定會來決定這個幾十年來的一個大問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14902.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14917.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
所以我想說要麻煩次長參考一下我剛剛提到的就271條如果我們只在這邊做處理的話將來一定掛一漏萬會有很多行為會沒有辦法處理到是王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14920 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14927.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那個就是剛才法務部的見解好像說修271條比修286條更好但是你要另訂條文我們必須說這個刑法的修正事實上已經花了很久的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14940.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14965.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那事實上在社會大眾希望能夠我們提出這修法已經非常久那今天我們進入了逐條的這個討論所以我剛才在執行社我也特別講那當然我們肯定說法務部終於願意從善如流但是呢在時間上如果你要另訂條文的話說實在立法院也沒有辦法等你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14966.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14981.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
因為如果按照你在另訂條文那我的理解就是在拖延啊又是在拖延修法的時程而已所以我覺得我做一個具體的建議啦我在剛才質詢部長的時候也說今天不管是271條或286條 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14985.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14997.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那既然法務部今天也可以接受對於七歲以下 凌虐致死的可以處以死刑或無期徒刑的話那是不是要請法務部 你在我們現在委員所提出來的271條或者286條 你們做條文的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15005.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15025.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
好 這是我們比較可以接受的否則的話你又另訂條文 那是怎樣呢我們今天還全部都停下來再繼續等行政院的版本嗎要等到什麼時候呢 那會不會來呢到時候又有變化又怎麼辦呢所以我覺得今天如果法務部沒有辦法提出你條文的修正的話那就按照我們今天 就是委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15029.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15041.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
所提出來的版本我們就這樣走下去啦我個人是做這樣的一個具體的建議那基本上很難再接受說你再另訂條文去做修正好不好 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15043.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15069.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
好 謝謝 請問還有哪位好 莊委員謝謝 朝偉我剛其實我也贊同吳宗憲 朝偉的一個講法啦但是大家話要講清楚啦話要講清楚的原因就在於說你286跟271 放在271它會產生一個重大的一個不同的地方你現在民意上有壓力你在這個那麼多公民團體他們有說要把這個把它更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15070.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15092.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
大家都聽到 各黨都聽到 但要講清楚 凌虐致死的部分 他就不是殺人要講好 放在271是用凌虐的方式去殺人 這要講好喔 這要講好喔所以呢 呃 你說要按照程序去走 我也願意啊 我也願意啊 只是說 咱都沒那麼厲害啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15093.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15123.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
立委不是我們做得了以後留下一個大家好像滿足一時而已還是慎重一點啦我到現在沒有看到誰表達反對要加重都可以但是我譬如說放在286的我是反對的我反對的原因就是說你真的會把故意跟過失把它那個界線給模糊化那你放在271的話我的擔憂只是怕一個就是說你創設了一個比剝奪掉生命法義更高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15123.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15147.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
用一個太樣來讓他變成一個帝王條款本來是你殺人的話死刑無期徒刑十年以上那你現在針對到幼童的部分那你就變成你比一般的殺人罪還要重要做這樣的一個差別待遇的時候講清楚我也可以接受但問題就是說怎麼去講清楚怎麼去講清楚說 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15151.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15155.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我這陣子來我沒多少接觸說,台師是大人的,反而沒有那麼重,他的法定性沒有那麼重 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15169.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15175.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
十年以上沒有沒有 我要講說為什麼我們說因為小孩子沒有反他沒有任何反擊的能力啦八九十歲躺在那邊他也沒有反擊能力啦我在講的是說我們立法的時候要讓他更周延你們的思考點我知道你們要嚇阻我當然知道我的意思是說你把他獨立出來這樣的一個太陽會掛一路亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15197.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15222.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
你人這麼多你就給過就好了,我沒意見啦,我是跟你提醒啦我只是說這個我知道,就是說那個中委員剛講的跟我剛講的其實是類似的啦對對類似的好那這部分就對,我想大家的想法應該都差不多啦那就請法務部這邊回應一下剛剛的我們的問題好,根據個人報告啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15222.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15245.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那就這個殺人的犯罪手法或犯罪年齡我們做一個獨立的犯罪類型來做一個特別的加重的規範那基本上這本部政策立場我們贊成我們一直在強調那只是說這個最低刑度要到什麼時候多少刑度以上這個我們大家可以討論因為涉及到整個刑法它互相的可能會互相有一些抵觸或互相影響所以加重部分我們是贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15248.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15276.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
就是獨立的一個犯罪性但是要跟各位報告一點就是說如果修在271有一個缺點是什麼因為我們接下來有個272他是犯前條之罪的加重直系血清罪那如果我們271已經對未滿7歲的獨立犯罪類型了後面那條是犯前面之罪加重二分之就矛盾因為272他是對直系血清加重你271是對未滿7歲之人加重我們272又規定犯前條之罪要加重這兩條就衝突了 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15278.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15304.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
所以這個解套方式要不然就是要修個272-1要不然就是要272要跟著修你不能單獨只修271加一項它會跟272會衝突這個要跟各委員報告那剛剛黃委員提到就是說可不可以在刑分裡面未來就是說某一種特定犯罪類型我就特別寫說這種犯罪不得假釋我還跟黃委員報告就是說因為我們刑法總則裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15305.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15320.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
所有的組型的種類他其實規定在33條裡面有規定哪幾種組型啊各種組型沒有一種組型叫做無期徒刑不得假釋或者是有一種另外一個叫做有期徒刑不得假釋沒有這種刑種刑罰種類的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15322.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15342.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
所以說我們比較建議就是說去修刑法的不得假釋的規定來做統一的適用而不要用個別的刑分去規定因為個別的刑分我剛剛也說明了我們法條非常非常多未來會有不斷增加更惡劣的犯罪我們要不斷去修那個法某一個犯罪不得假釋不得假釋還有一些特別法的規定那會非常非常龐大 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15343.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15362.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
所以我們基本上就不得假設這點我們在特定發掘類型裡面我們是政策方向的贊成那基本上我們比較希望規範在行種裡面那至於剛剛委員一直提到的286要不要修我再次強調本部立場不是說286不要修我只是說271要修286也要修的狀態之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15364.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15391.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
哪一種對這個整個法的影響比較小286我們不是說不要修那286修的話有一個缺點是什麼因為286它基本上是一個故意犯加一個過失犯的一個犯罪類型現在我們不修法前年夜七歲致死已經處到十年以上跟無期徒刑了如果再加一個死刑上去的話它會變成一個什麼狀態它會跟我們殺人罪一模一樣的刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15393.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15410.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
會變成我們286的故意加過失 刑度會等於271的直接殺人故意就是說刑罰會產生一個法律上的衝突 倒不是本部說不主張修286 倒不是這樣286它那個級距已經拉高到有一個極致了 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15412.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15440.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
已經到一個極致的產生那這部分倒是根據報告最後一點就是委員提到就是說我們本部是不是會不會拖延我跟委員報告我們在部長或是我們政事他也對外宣示在委員會宣示的我們三個月內一定會把相關的條文送到行政院那我們也會跟行政院溝通是不是能夠盡快的把它完成相關的修法程序當時部長有對外宣示是三個月內的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15441.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15463.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
以上說明 謝謝那另外我跟次長補充一下就剛次長說你說把這個泥虐致死變成拉成跟殺人罪的刑度一樣但是你看328條第三項強盜致死的交通結果犯他也是拉到跟殺人一樣所以他我國的法律的體制上並不是沒有這樣的設計所以我這邊先提醒一下次長那洪委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15467.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15484.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
第一個啦,他剛剛是說三個月法務部會給行政院嘛對吧然後行政院什麼時候會給立法院大概就盡快嘛這個詞我們也聽過很多次啦,我不用再複述啦不用再一一盤點但我還是回到實質的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15486.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15514.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
剛剛你講到無期徒刑可不可以假釋的問題至少應該刑總很熟刑的種類規定在刑總33條刑總33條他只有講無期徒刑33條在刑的種類裡面從來沒有去處理無期徒刑可不可以假釋在什麼條件下面假釋所以不可以假釋的無期徒刑本來就在33條的射程範圍之內了何必要新增刑法的種類 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15517.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15535.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我的說法絕對沒有錯啊因為你現在是把過去累積的食物上面的慣行當成是無期徒刑就一定可以假釋但無期徒刑可以假釋是在後面77條的規定啊在一定的條件下面他可以假釋啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15537.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15560.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
在刑分裡面去明定特定殘忍的犯罪類型不得假釋他沒有違反刑的種類他還是回到刑總33條的無期徒刑刑總33條的無期徒刑他沒有鮮豔的在法條裡面去規定是可以假釋還不可以假釋無期徒刑什麼時候可以假釋那是在77條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15562.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15583.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
所以不需要在行種裡面去增加一個所謂要有不得假釋的五級圖形形分才可以做這樣的處理我的理解應該沒有錯吧因為我們這樣子討論問題我覺得很難聚焦所以是不是一個一個來剛剛次長所講的如果跟272之間的銜接關係的話的確放在271的最後一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15589.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15605.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
看起來會很醜所謂很醜就是一個法條規定的很醜但是實質在法律的適用上面我是不覺得會產生任何問題啦因為只是你在272犯前條之罪的時候絕對不可能包括271第四項嘛書難想像啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15607.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15631.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
構成要件不會該當啦但是不會排除272條它實際上面的適用範圍那第三個是 也就是回復剛剛莊銳選委員所提的問題在外國的立法例針對特定年齡以下的幼童犯殺人罪者我現在在講的不是寧願致死喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15632.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15641.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
就是被殺害的客體是一定歲數以下的孩童除死刑或無期徒刑也就是較一般的一般殺人罪加重處罰的立法律是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15642.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15667.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
在美國很多州針對特定身份而受害的人因為要加強他的保護小孩是其中之一給他特別的刑法規定那個是有的那其實你也不用去擔心到說什麼57條絕對沒有什麼審酌57條量刑的空間在我們現在的刑法分則裡面特定的犯罪結合犯的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15668.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15691.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
只能處死刑或無期徒刑在我們目前刑分的條文裡面也有啊市長我應該沒有說錯吧226條之一就是一個最典型的類型啊它只有兩種選項不是死刑就是無期徒刑啊所以我還是回來我那個特定具體的問題就刑法分則裡面明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15694.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15707.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
在刑的種類的選擇上面我明定他是一個不可以假釋的無期徒刑到底有什麼問題還是法務部認為你們還是不贊成因為這個會牽涉到很具體我們接下來271要怎麼處理的問題以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15711.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15730.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那個剛剛這部分我是那個認同黃國昌委員他所提到其實如果說放在271裡面多一項的話其實272的試用基本上沒有問題因為272它有它有一個構成要件就已經限縮在直系血清素嘛所以它在它在試用271的時候它不會去跑到 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15731.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15748.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
比他年輕的幼童去所以這個在適用上面確實是剛剛黃委員講的沒錯這會讓條文的編排變得很醜但是他不會影響到實務上面的適用所以這部分是我覺得剛剛黃委員這塊講我是認同那這也給次長就參考一下黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15752.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15773.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我想其實可能對於比較懂法的人在法條上 在法義上都非常講究但是今天為什麼有這麼大的來自於民間的聲音希望修法那最後其實都非常周到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15773.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15796.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
直接把第286條提供給我相信都是跨黨派的委員但是我也會認為其實希望修法的人他不會說執著於我今天一定要放在哪一條文裡面他重點是來自於必須把保護幼兒避免凌虐甚至凌虐致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15797.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15799.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
應該要處以即行的這樣的一個精神跟原則放到法條裡面希望這樣的一個最基本的正義得以實現因為我不是學法的我非常能夠理解很多的父母他的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15814.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15834.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
對我來講比如我今天坐在這邊所以我剛才講說你今天在271條去修或者在286條去修對於像我這樣的一個父母我不會去堅持雖然我自己提案是286條但是如果你今天把我們希望修的精神能夠放到271條 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15836.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15852.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
OK啊也OK啊但是我們不能接受的就是一再的拖延嘛剛才當然剛才法部說我們絕對不會拖延可是我剛才一聽三個月三個月這就代表我們這個會期就算等行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15853.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15868.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
大概等不到了這個會期就落空了到了下個會期有沒有送來我們也不知道但是我們真的很擔心在這一段時間裡面如果有同樣我們不希望看到像凱凱案的悲劇但是如果很不幸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15869.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15893.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
也有類似這樣的悲劇 請問一下我們如何面對這麼龐大的民間的聲音我們如何去面對這些受傷害的兒童好 所以我現在具體而言 我剛才就做具體的建議就是是不是要我們今天在我們的主條討論裡面如果法務部 其實我們現在聽到現在法務部也已經願意崇善如流啦 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15895.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15915.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
那是不是就在271條裡面 法部提出你的條文修正嘛對我來講 今天我在這邊 我沒有很堅持一定要放在286 可是286怎麼樣修法那如果在271條 把剛才我們所堅持 就是民間的聲音 民間的希望把它放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15918.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15944.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們也可以 我們也可以接受因為確實啊 剛才在講說那個272條我也趕快去看一下那272條也許你們很在乎這個對啊 就法律上要很漂亮 修得很漂亮可是他剛272條完全沒有漢格嘛請問一下七歲以下的人怎麼會變成直系尊親屬呢也不可能的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15945.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15973.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
所以我真的還是具體建議啦是不是請法部就271條你提出你的條文修正你提出你的條文修正就是說我們也兼顧今天立法委員是反應民間的聲音然後法部也願意來把你們的修法的想法放到271條如果大家都有共識的話我真的很希望這條這條我們還要在那邊去再去搞冷凍一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15974.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15990.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
很難看啦我們再去搞冷凍一個月然後再跑到大家再去什麼按鈴表決我相信對面的我相信很多民進黨的委員也不願意這樣啊在這個問題上我們還要再做表決沒有必要所以是不是請法務部能夠把你們的修正條文能夠具體的如果你覺得21條比286條好那我們也可以接受你就把 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15998.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16014.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
把那271條文怎麼樣來修正嗎如果我們所需要的民間生意可以符合的話那我們也可以來看看不是說完全不能接受啦謝謝這個沈委員有先舉手 先讓沈委員好 主席齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16022.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16036.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我想我完全理解今天這個案子這麼多的委員有提案那針對現在社會輿論事實上大家對於這個聶桐案的這些發生的這些悲劇大家其實都人神共憤 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16037.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16067.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
但是這樣子的情緒是一回事的那我們立法要怎麼立來達到大家現在社會所期待的這個目的去遏止這個法律就是以刑度來遏止刑法的修正來遏止這樣子的犯罪行為這個大家也都很一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16068.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16093.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
但是我覺得我們作為一個立法機關尤其是我們立法院裡面立法機關裡面的司法法治委員會我覺得我們的立法也不能說也不要說我們今天通過就好醜沒關係這個我覺得這個這個我稍微坐在這裡你也應該也不太能接受說沒有我們今天就是通過啊這個有漢格 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16097.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16121.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
這個二七一條 它有 妳剛剛講的就是漢格有啦 妳說犯前條對 怎麼可能發生 但是我們卻這樣立法 這就是漢格啊漢格的意思就是這樣漢格的意思是說妳立了一個法 但是這個法是 狀況是跟現實是矛盾的它就是漢格嘛 我的意思說 我不是說這樣子我的意思只是說 我們可以避免這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16123.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16152.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
我們可以在立法上面避免這種狀況我們為什麼要立在現在明知道有這樣子的漢格我們還要堅持要立一個有看起來有漢格的用剛剛黃國昌委員的話講就是看起來很醜的法條我們做司法法制我們做立法院裡面的就法律來講我們算是最專業的委員會去做已經要去立一個我們現在就知道他很醜我們現在就知道他有漢格的法律我們為什麼不 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16153.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16164.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
大家就來談出一個沒有漢格的法律條文這個我覺得我個人是這樣建議今天我們在271條立法要立在271條還是另立一個271條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16175.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16203.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
或者是這個要再加上這個有過失有這個淩月致死這個286條這都是不一樣的這個立法金融我覺得這個其實在這裡我相信兩黨的委員大家對於這個社會的感受以及這個我們對於這樣子人神共憤的這些犯罪行為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16207.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16224.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
這種憤怒我覺得都是一致的問題是我們在做立法的時候我們還是必須要就立法最根本的最根本的所謂罪責相當所謂立法刑罰的衡平我們還是必須要考慮這是我們立法者的責任我們不考慮的話沒有人會考慮這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16226.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16249.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我們不能說我們今天大家在討論這個立法原則然後就扣上個帽子說那你這個就是反對你也不能說沒有列死刑他就是沒有處罰剛剛整個討論過程好像說沒有這個法條沒有列死刑他就是沒有處罰 不是他為什麼 那就我們所有的法條都判處死刑或 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16250.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16271.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
三年以下有歧途刑那每一個法條都這樣列那就每一個法行為太陽都有判死刑的可能這當然法律不會這樣列的原因就是因為它有列出死刑的這個形種它就是本身就是一個法律各種犯罪侵害不同法役它的這個犯罪的橫評 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16272.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16293.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這是他罪行的衡平嘛一個是侵害生命的法義一個是凌虐致死這個是侵害身體的法義造成的結果一個殺人罪以凌虐的方式來進行殺人罪這個是生命法義的侵害這個兩個我們在立法上面當然要去考慮他的衡平啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16295.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16320.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那個莊委員先舉手所以我們讓莊委員完之後換王委員謝謝我也不會講很多啦我覺得該講的我把它講一講啦那今天其實提案這麼多啦各黨都有提案啦都有提案那我都覺得我剛以為我們是要剛要聚焦在271跟286所以我才會講說陳廷輝委員77條不然我們都不要不然我現在看一看的話提案的人也都不來提案的人也都沒有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16323.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16350.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
跑掉了 或者都不來那你說陳定輝沒來 那其他張志倫這些一大堆人也都沒來沒有 我是說啊就不能說因為陳定輝沒有來 我們就沒有考量到他的部分他那個部分是無期徒刑到底要不要假釋要不要排除在外的一個問題 這第一個第二個大家再仔細再想一想啦真的會衝突啦你去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16351.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16360.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
你就看那個二十二章刑法兩百七十一條在殺人罪章跟淩淚致死你放在第二十三章 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16361.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16384.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
立法尤其是整部刑法你每一章每一章不一樣那個罪名是不同的他的罪職也是不同的你殺人罪當然就是侵害到生命法義嘛那你整個保護的就是生命法義啊那你這個在23章的傷害罪章裡面是保護身體法義啊那兩個不同的東西喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16385.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16410.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
你一定必須要去跟他對他做差別待遇啊那像比如說剛吳宗憲委你提到說哎呦啊那到時候還有故意到過失齁如果放在這個啊這個放在整個對死亡的加重結果沒有故意的時候齁啊那個人就沒有處罰到到不是沒有處罰到是說沒有用到那麼重不是沒有處罰到死掉了怎麼哪有可能沒有處罰到齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16411.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16431.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
除非他有一些主確違法的事由啊 不然哪有可能說沒有處罰到要讓他加重 要產生嚇阻我看大家都一樣 但只是說體力上怎麼安排或者說你要把他提升到這個殺人罪章裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16433.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16449.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
271條你再獨立去把它放一個行為太樣叫凌虐要殺人故意用凌虐的方式用凌虐的方式產生殺人的效果主觀上都是這樣要把它獨立出來你說法務部這個地方看起來好像也可以接受這樣的一個太樣但問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16451.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16473.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那又跟前面大家的主張是無期徒刑你說不得不得這個只要是淩淚的方式都不得去假釋的那你說又要放在刑法分責裡面你又不去討論這個刑法總則第77條假釋的規定又很奇怪我這樣提出來是再次的提醒要不然你怎麼辦 恕災人 我要他跟你們說很用心很盡責任跟你們說好 謝謝那我們請王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16479.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16496.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
好我具體來說第一個就是剛剛講說這個條文有沒有美醜的問題我覺得條文的美醜難道會比孩子的生命更重要嗎所以我要講的就是說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16497.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16509.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
我們也有討論到就是說在這個條文裡面在這個條文裡面只要這中間沒有漢格而且只要到時候在行法272條的執行它會出現問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16513.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16525.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
二十七二條的執行是不會出現問題除非說我們今天這樣修了會影響二十七二條的執行二十七二條就是對執行專清署加重期刑嘛那它不會去影響二十七二條的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16529.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16552.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
那我覺得我們今天一直把它焦灼在說啊這個271條怎麼定然後呢跟272條這樣看起來這樣子不好看等等之類的我覺得這個說實在我覺得民間團體是沒有辦法去接受而且對我像我這樣的人我根本沒有辦法想像為什麼我們的法律怎麼我們的法律是這樣定的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16553.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16578.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
他不是應該就是保障人民的生命財產安全嗎還是說他編排起來看起來好看而已好所以呢我在這邊做具體的一個建議啦所以我剛才所以他當然是聽那個法務部的意見法務部因為說要到還要搞三個月之後才送行政院這個時間呢確實是拖延確實拖延好那所以我覺得今天我們已經可以去接受那你 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16579.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16584.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
發布對271條你去提出你的這個條文修正好我們來看是不是符合我們的這個我們這個民間團體的一個需求那另外你如果覺得你272條要再怎麼修那你再把它送過來嘛你再送過來你的修法因為我剛剛講了我們現在271條修正之後往前走不會影響272條的執行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16606.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16609.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
除非我會影響二線二條直行哇 你這個不行啊你這個兩個髮條一定要一併來修正那二線二條不會影響直行那至於在髮條上你要看起來怎麼變得美美的怎麼樣用美肌什麼我就隨便你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16621.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16638.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
所以也就是說我希望今天如果法案部認為21條修正是可行的那提出條文修正那如果你提不出條文修正我們就往下走否則一直拖延而已那至於就是說如果我們21條條文修正之後然後呢你22條你再提出你的修法版本我們還是會處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16645.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16670.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那因為最重要我們是一定要趕快先保障保障我們的孩子的安全嘛我剛剛講如果我們在這邊拖拖拉拉拖拉又拖個半年三個月到半年那中間又發生一個什麼樣的悲劇的話我覺得我們尤其我們司法法治委員大家全部難辭其咎啊真的啊我們就自己去撞牆好了好所以我覺得這是我具體的所以我們今天既然已經進入主條討論那怎麼樣來具體的來做這個法條的修正以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16675.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16678.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我們就縮短一下好不好因為吳委員還沒講過讓吳委員先說 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16682.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16707.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
謝謝主席我想今天的幾個立場坐在這裡的每一個委員即使有一些沒有坐在這裡他們也是長期關心兒童議題的委員其實立法院不分黨派立場都很一致我們要嚴肅的也願意來討論也願意來促成這個修法來滿足社會民意的期待所以沒有人反對來在刑責的部分進行加重跟調整這第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16708.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16730.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
第二個前提是也沒有人想要拖延我們也希望能夠盡可能的在一個合宜的條文大家獲得共識之下快速的回應社會的期待所以我們也我個人也認為如果再搞個三個月半年這個恐怕我們不管行政立法各個黨派沒有人可以回應社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16731.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16755.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
所以第三個我是想很務實的說到條文這倒不是什麼單純用美醜來看條文而是說我們要負責任的立法在立法在修正而且這是死刑這麼嚴肅的 惡虐跟死刑這兩個議題都是無比嚴肅的如何讓法律的秩序要去避免它產生漢格的可能所以我們要負責任的去嚴謹的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16756.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16775.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
所以我是很希望就是說法務部說什麼在三個月再送進來那可能就真的是我覺得是久了啦但今天如果就條文來講你要放271放272或者是有的委員現行的條文在286連放在哪個條文可能都大家的共識今天沒有辦法聚焦 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16776.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16797.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
即便方向一致,但是放在哪裡都沒有辦法聚焦,就是因為大家避免,就是要嚴謹啦我們已看第八屆、第九屆、第十一屆三度針對刑法286條的虐童刑責每一次的加重,我如果印象沒有錯的話,都是很嚴謹的討論到最後透過朝野協商去妥善的處理它 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16798.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16808.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以合宜的話是不是大家可以來剛剛洪威委員也同意就是這一定要有執法單位法務部要你的條文的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16810.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16829.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
好像在場每個委員版本的寫法都不一致連放在哪裡都不一致所以今天我也不接受什麼三個月半年那就是很久那這個會期延會到七月底不是嗎那今天我沒進入主條了方向也慢慢的聚攏跟聚焦了就是要落實在哪一個條文文字怎麼寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16830.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16853.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那今天委員會進入逐條之後如果大家同意我們就有個共識性等他的條文出來條文保留反正就是最多一個月我們草野協商就是可以具體針對法務部門行政部門的條文在草野協商那個場域大家最終去定案他這個嚴肅的條文我是不希望在院會用表決的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16854.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16883.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
這種生命的這種刑責的事情我也非常期待這不應當是政治的攻防我們一定要嚴謹比嚴謹更嚴謹有共識這是最重要的所以如果會協商期限讓他這個時間去在法界、實務界再去聚攏一下大家的意見我們可以今天送出一個月內我們趕快請交委協商然後韓院長、朝委協商其實在這個會期就是可以交出我們修法的成績 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16886.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16899.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
所以說在這個會席完成的這個然後讓他們去提出更嚴謹不會掛一漏萬也不會產生漢格的條文那我覺得時間上大家應當是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16901.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16926.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
好 就今天立法來講 我其實沒有反對王國威委員所講的就是說我們就修271條那就請法務部趕快提條文這個我沒有反對 我剛剛所講的只是說我們今天所立的法 這個未來都是法律系的學生要唸的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16927.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16940.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
我們這樣是立法十年後的法律系的大學生會說為什麼會立這種法為什麼會有六歲以下的直系血清專心署當初的立法者在想什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16943.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16958.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
這個我們今天立的法,雖然說你在實務上執行,像王委員講的,在實務上執行可能沒有問題,因為不會產生這種狀況但是你在法律條文上面,你就寫出來狀況就是這樣子,你如果有6歲以下的直系血系身心屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16960.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16979.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
這以後的學生 念法律系的學生 當初的立法者怎麼會立這種法我只是這樣子 我講法的意思只有這樣子我說我們今天 只修271條 我並不反對但是我希望說 我們在立法過程中 我們明知道這裡在文字邏輯上面 它有一些漢格跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16982.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17000.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
跟剛剛黃國昌委員所講很醜的地方我們明知道我們是不是能夠避免這樣的狀況那我就實際上今天的會議我是贊成吳思耀委員長所講的就等於是一個月的時間我們就是今天保留條文在一個月的時間協商的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17000.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17027.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
之前法務部一定要提出條文那我們大家在協商中就這個法務部跟我們這些的條文大家來進行因為這我們討論快超過一個小時那是不是說王委員講完之後我們就來做決定要怎麼處理要不然一個小時了來 王委員好 我覺得至少到今天為止包含法務部也好或者是民進黨團也好那終於看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17028.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17053.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
你們願意能夠去正面的回應民間的聲音否則之前這個超過13萬的公民的一個連署一直都沒有得到回應那今天因為剛才主席也講說我們也討論了一個小時那我在這邊就具體的第一個我希望法務部待會還是要做一下回應啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17053.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17064.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
因為我們剛才在互相的這個交集裡面我聽得出來法務部是可以同意在271條修正那只是他之前講說那我就什麼在另立條文271之1條因為我們在另立條文就要等你們嘛所以我想請法務部回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17070.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17089.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
在271條可不可以因為剛才都是說你們一個月後再來提修正版本但是如果我是認為說如果我們今天你就可以提這個條文修正的話我們其實還不用等一個月兩週之內我們在那個院會就可以去處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17090.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17099.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
就還不用再等一個月兩週之內就可以去處理這個案子如果我們今天今天在我們的委員會裡面就達成協議的話所以第一個我想請法務部因為終究法務部有自己的主體性嘛那我不曉得是不是變成是民進黨團變成法務部的代言人說幫他們去決定你們一定要一個月這是其一那第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17116.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17119.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
如果法部說我還是要回去去做想辦法去做一些修正的話那除了271條我剛剛講當然就是凌虐對七歲以下凌虐致死應該處以死刑或無期徒刑但是286條也一定要修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17133.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17151.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
因為286條它除了我看到大部分的委員的提案包含國民黨團提案還有很多委員提案除了是致人於死者處死刑或無期徒刑之外那還有另外一個修法重點就是致重傷者處無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17152.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17179.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
那你把這個致死者放到271條但是不能把286其他另外一個就是如果你重傷的這一塊就把它抹去掉了所以基本上如果待會就請法務部來說明但是如果你說我要一個月後再提版本那就是包含271、286不可能說只修271、286就全部丟掉啦他還是要做一些條文的修正好不好 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17182.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17192.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那我看我們就直接處理嘛大家有沒有意見我們現在來談處理我們不要再談處理的是直接處理條文現在換誰講話 請主席採視一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17199.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17227.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
就好了 因為我們現在就開 我們剛剛說他講完那個王委員講完就我們現在就來看說我們這條到底我們是要保留呢還是我們要怎麼走法好不好王委員講完然後再吳委員你們就要怎麼處理來談就好了是請說 那個針對法務部的部分我願意可以給你們一個月的時間但你們空口的承諾恐怕沒有辦法說服大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17229.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17246.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
跳票的次數太多了啦所以我具體的建議今天條文全部保留出委員會全部保留出委員會就一個月的時間嘛你有一個月的時間去處理嘛一個月他還東西拿不出來那 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17247.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17267.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
就不要怪立法院一個月的時間到了以後我們按照議事規則該怎麼處理就怎麼處理我覺得這兩方面的考慮都可以兼顧到我不是無限級的等你但也不要說我一天都不給你今天走到這裡了我覺得針對小朋友的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17269.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17280.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
各個黨團應該啦大家或許具體的立法技術上有一些歧見但是我覺得大的方向上沒有什麼太大的分別那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17281.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17300.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我會建議今天就請召委如果各個黨團的代表也同意今天就請召委就是兩個條文都保留送出委員會那我們在這邊要把話講得很清楚因為我相信現在很多關注的公民朋友都在看我不要讓他們誤會說你們這些立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17303.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17321.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
我們都已經連署成這樣 抗議團這樣你們還是不處理 沒有不處理今天就是條文保留出委員會 時間開始敲一個月一個月之內 請法務部把東西交出來東西沒有交出來 一個月時間到我們就到院會去處理 這是我具體的建議好 那吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17323.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17346.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
剛剛黃國昌委員的發言是我剛剛發言就時間處理上我願意用在最終一個月的協商冷通期讓你們去收攏你們的條文只是說我跟他稍稍不同的是我不希望這個最後是一個月之後談不攏就院會處理我是不希望發生是院會處理也就是用表決的方式來處理這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17347.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17370.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
所以一個月的時間你去收攏條文不是說你最終朝野協商那個時候才拿出你的條文這一個月就包括法務部門去溝通也希望在我們做上協商的場域的時候大家已經對條文溝通有相對的共識好不好這是我對於法務部門的要求那另外我回到我自己對於條文的看法我們很清楚知道嘛271條是22章的殺人罪責嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17374.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17398.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
那286就是傷害罪章嘛所以說如果比較起來如果就條文來講剛說落在271落在272或是286那我具體你們納入記錄我個人是認為那就是從271的就是故意傷人罪的部分來下手我個人是覺得從271的修正去下手那你們去好好去研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17399.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17425.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
那這個月的時間是法案研議出來之後也要進行溝通一個月後的協商場域希望大家是共識下做出決定我不希望它是院會表決處理我們回應社會的方式不是動輒表決就好這不是立法院的職責我們如何把法律調得越嚴謹越有共識這才是我們負責任的做法然後所以請主席才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17426.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17440.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
因為27跟286兩個是連動的啦那是不是說我們這兩個條件就依照大家的意思就予以保留那也麻煩保護部能夠在這個月趕快把按照吳委員的意思趕快把草案送過來那次長要補充什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17440.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17455.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
跟委員跟大會報告就是說法務部的政策立場一定要再重申一次法務部絕對不反對修271或修286至於怎麼修我們只是提供一個法制上的意見認為這樣修比較妥適而已的第一點並不是法務部反對絕對不反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17457.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17478.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
第二點 剛剛如果說大院 如果貴委員會待會決議就是說一個月冷凍期那法務部會在這一個月內提出我們的法治上的意見因為法務部畢竟沒有提案嘛我們只能提供法治意見出來讓各位委員參考我們會在一個月內提出來謝謝對 好你就 你有什麼條文要怎麼修正我覺得也可以嘛反正都是意見好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17480.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17503.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
好 謝謝 那我想大家這樣有共識就好那本案審查完畢 你據審查報告提交院會公決因為有保留條文 所以本案須交黨團協商那院會討論時 由昭偉吳宗憲出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17504.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17510.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
那本日會議議程所列事項已經處理完畢進行到此6月5日上午9時繼續開會現在休息謝謝大家 |