| IVOD_ID |
16730 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16730 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-04T08:31:01+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-04T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:28:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea49a83869710b50b7b6918ac9a8133975fdab1a38f0d348c0a4372649cc7a471c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、建築法：
(一) 審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案。
(二) 審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案。
(三) 審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。
(四) 審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。
(五) 審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
(六) 審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。
(七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。
(八) 審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。
(九) 審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
(十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。
(十二) 審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、平均地權條例：
審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:01 - 12:00:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1974.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1981.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
大家早安請主任秘書報告出席人數出席委員11人與主法定人數報告委員會現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1985.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2008.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第23次全体委员会议议事录时间114年5月29日星期四上午95分至11时8分地点红楼202会议室初期委员苏乔会委员等13人练习委员和新春委员等6人请假委员黄建斌委员1人练习官员大陆委员会主任委员邱锤正及相关人员行政院外交国防法务处参事张志鹏法务部参事廖江显 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2008.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2029.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
内政部海洋委员会国家安全举国防部外交部教育部全区部行政院人事行政总处国军退出一官兵辅导委员会等机关代表及相关人员主席张昭琪委员红路报告事项宣读上次会议议事录决定确定讨论事项一审查台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例修正草案即四案二审查香港澳门关系条例修正草案即二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2030.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2054.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
讨论事项合并询答委员沈伯扬临处因说明提案要旨大陆委员会主任委员邱锤正报告委员苏巧慧等12人质询由大陆委员会主任委员邱锤正答复说明登记发言委员处不在场则外其余均已发言完毕询答结束委员丁学忠所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询及未经答复部分请相关机关于一周内另以书面答复并复制本会决议以上个案均另定期继续审查宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2056.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2060.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
謝謝 請問各位委員 上次會議議事錄有錯誤或疑惑之處有吧 沒有 好 那我們議事錄確定那麼我們繼續進行討論事項 請宣讀討論事項一 建築法審查委員賴月龍等16人擬居建築法第91條條文修正查案審查委員顏寬恒等21人擬居建築法第73條條文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2078.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2106.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
审查委员吴丽华等16人拟据建筑法第99条之一条文修正查案审查委员黄建斌等16人拟据建筑法第56条第58条及第87条条文修正查案审查委员徐巧兴等22人拟据建筑法第89条条文修正查案审查委员陈金辉等20人拟据建筑法第97条条文修正查案审查委员严宽恒等17人拟据建筑法第97条条文修正查案审查委员林黛华等17人拟据建筑法第54条条文修正查案 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2107.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2126.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
审查委员陈超明等18人拟据建筑法第77条之二及第95条之一条文修正草案审查台湾民众党党团拟据建筑法第77条之二及第95条之一条文修正草案二平均地权条例审查委员牛旭廷等18人拟据平均地权条例第25条条文修正草案宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2128.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2156.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
高雄委員會本日議程所列討論事項第十一第十二案因為沒有簽不敷於同意書所以不予審查其餘何必詢答那麼我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分我們吳清明委員蘇巧慧委員我們今天有提案的顏寬恆委員和陳金輝委員官員的部分我們內政部劉世芳部長國土管理署吳清修署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2159.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2165.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 那麼我們現在就開始進行提案說明請提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請陳金輝委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2173.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2201.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
謝謝主席還有各位委員以及我們各位官員本期想先說明今天對於建築法第97條的提案說明近年來呢性影像犯罪的樣態日益猖獗偷拍外流還有未經同意散佈私密影像的事件層出不窮尤其是在這麼數位科技發達的當下私密影像一旦流入網路就像洪水般的迅速擴散很難以挽回而網路上的每一次點擊每一次轉傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2202.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2226.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
對被害人而言都是無聲而沉痛的打擊近日爆發的台版N號房事件更赤裸裸的揭示我國在數位性暴力防治的多重的破口除了多起未經同意散布性私密影像的案例曝光社會更震驚於有知名的公眾人物涉嫌持有大量非法兒少性影像引起廣大民眾的憤怒以及譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2227.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2247.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
更令人無法接受的是許多偷拍行為竟發生在我們日常生活的公共空間比如說嫌犯利用公廁、更衣室、游泳池等設備進行偷拍的行為赤裸裸的去挑戰我們公共秩序還有個人隱私的底線嚴重侵蝕社會對公共安全的基本信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2248.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2269.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
这些犯罪行为不仅严重侵害个人隐私更动摇我们社会的道德根基现影像犯罪绝非恶作剧或者是一时冲动可以来轻描淡写的每一个观看分享或是储存的人都是这场加害行为的一份子都是维系数位性暴力这个蝉链的共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2269.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2297.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
性隱私是個人生活中最私密最應該受到保護的領域政府領英更積極的立法還有行政的作為為國人的隱私提供最嚴密的保障這次修正建築法第九十七條不僅將原本兩性平權明確修正為更具包容性的性別平權同時也將隱私保護的設計理念入法要求公共設施在規劃上更應該重視引用 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2297.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2322.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
使用者的隐私落实宪法保障隐私权的核心的精神唯有在制度设计还有社会文化中共同建立对隐私的尊重台湾每一个角落才得以被守护国人的隐私才可以受到真正的保障以上谢谢好谢谢陈金辉委员下一位我们请严宽恒委员两个提案一起进行提案说明严委员有请 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2325.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2340.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 謝謝主席 各位早以下說明介於現行建築法第73條第一項的單數規定針對未領得使用實造之建物不得借用水電則 雖然明文規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2341.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2369.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
沒有規範事項例外狀況但是實務上因直轄市或縣市政府因另訂相關規定而導致全國試用之標準不一那水電是公共事業影響民眾權利不應該因民眾所在地而有所差異針對未領得使用執照之建築物不准接用水電限制定有事項除外情形一 偏遠地區且非屬都市計劃區地區之建築物二 因興建公共 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2370.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2383.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
新辦公共設施所需而拆遷具整建需要且無礙都市計畫發展之建築物3天然災害損壞需安置及修復之建築物4 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2385.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2408.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
其他有迫切民生需要之建築物然其適用前適用前提仍是直轄市縣市政府認定相關之規定並無一致性認定標準恐造成各地方適用標準不一那國內部分偏鄉或早期老舊建物有諸多不便的實際情況也有部分屬於經濟弱勢戶難以申領 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2411.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2439.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
建物使用執照者然而用水用電實為基本民生需求能應適度維護國人健康與民生福祉保障民眾基本權益與本法明文規範之除外情形准予合法申請接水用電因此本席提案修正建築法第73條第一項但書規定以統一法規適用標準保障基本民生水電設置權 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2441.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2464.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
另外97條的部分包含性別平權等發展目標由此可見身心障礙人權的保障以及性別平權已然是各國的共識在高齡化社會下無障礙設施顯然已成為生活中重要的一環人人皆有機會用到以上說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2467.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2473.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 謝謝顏寬恆委員下一位我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員進行提案說明麥委員有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2482.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2492.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席好各位親愛的家人大家早安今天提出的針對建築法第77條2的修正案說明這條修法目的在於回應社會對室內裝修管理制度簡正變明的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2506.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2508.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
特別是在檢移裝修案件上推動程序簡化明確責任並強化資訊揭露於數位化的申請機制我們知道現在室內裝修管理辦法第33條已經設計出檢移申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2531.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2553.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
申報制的制度也就是在不影響防火避難措施不變更主要的造構前提下可由專業人員簽章負責包備及準施工但實務上多數縣市政府人要求逐案實際審查導致原本只要數千元的技術服務費變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2562.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2570.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
動輒數萬甚至十萬行政代辦費扼殺了制度原意也讓許多民眾萬惡而卻步因此我們在建築法第七的七條之二中明定建築裝修必依法申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2586.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2613.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
審查許可者應將相關文件張貼於施工出入口明顯處促進社會監督並與中央主管機構得授權工會或技術團體辦理審查的彈性這項設計表面上是揭露施工資訊但實質上是朝向制度責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2615.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2621.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
明確化行政率效率提升的大方向邁進我們也要強調未來在行政商應全面落實簡易裝修制度的立法精神回歸專業負責於抽查機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2636.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2645.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
杜絕長期已造成的成本轉嫁更重要的是要引進線上申請於 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2647.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2653.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
投資整合平台讓室內裝修案能像消防設備申請一樣透過數位流程快速完成減少人工作業誤差與申請的摩擦最後透過制度簡化責任明確資訊透明與數位轉型我們不僅能讓民眾便利申請也避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2677.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2693.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
裝潢糾紛也能提升公共安全與專業的信任這是本條文修正案的核心精神敬請大家支持謝謝大家好謝謝我們民眾黨團代表麥立正委員接下來我們請內政部劉思芳部長進行報告劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2709.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2726.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
謝謝主席 各位委員大家早非常感謝各位委員對內政業務的關注跟指導今天大院的內政委員會召開會議審查由很多委員所提案的包括建築法及平均地權條例部分條文的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2727.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2748.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
本人應邀前來報告並被質詢針對本次各委員提案的修正條文我們綜合簡要的說明如下首先有關委員所提到因應後疫情時代結構性的缺工建議申報開工免拆除完成的限制並且延長申報開工期限部分因為建築法第54條申報開工細數被查制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2752.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2771.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
且無規範應該實質開工使得辦理的事項所以無需要修正那再來有關於建築工程納入第三方公證單位辦理審刊的部分以強化建築物勘驗制度因為申報規定改善方式以及是否經主管建築機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2772.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2788.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
或者指定的专业机关团体任可改善完成等已经授权直辖市县市政府于建筑管理自治条例的规则当中定之现行建筑法及各地方自治法规已经可以推动执行也无需修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2789.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2809.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
另外在有关近年来建筑工程造成公共安全事件建议修正建筑法第89条提高罚还金额的部分因为罚还金额的合理性涉及各地方建筑物的规模违规样态以及地方政府的实务执行上代拟据共识建议暂不予以修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2810.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2827.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
至於有關委員提案建築物領得使用執照後接用水電的部分建立全國一致性的認定標準以保障民生權益考量各地方政府是實際上的需要因為因地制宜所制定的相關規範所以為立地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2827.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2856.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
發展的需求本部建議維持原條文的內容那對於提升建築物所有權人使用人建築物公共安全檢查及申報議事加重處罰未依規檢查及申報考量如果將罰還額度提高對於其他違規事項處罰是否符合比例原則上代尼郡共識並且希望能夠聽取各地方政府在推動實務上面的執行意見所以暫不宜修正為宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2856.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2870.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
再來有關於建築物室內裝修應該強化施工現場的資訊揭露以及加重處罰因為違反室內裝修致人死傷的責任部分因為建築物室內裝修管理辦法第29條已經有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2873.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2901.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
室內裝修圖說經審核合格領得許可文件之後建築物的起造人所有權人或使用人應將許可文件張貼於施工地點明顯處已經達到資訊揭露的目的另外對於其他違規事項處罰是否符合比例原則上代你一句共識並且希望能夠跟地方政府在執行實務上面有共識之後才來做修正所以暫不宜修正為宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2902.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2921.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
有关委员提案据修正建筑法第97条的部分保护隐私权的方式涉及建筑物使用人之需求以及使用行为又保护手段涉及家具家电等商品或设备之综合应用仅以建筑设计构造形式落实隐私权保护尚有困难 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2922.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2936.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
另外根據身心障礙者權益保障法第57條及第88條已經分別明定公共建築物及活動場所之無障礙設備及設施不符合項目與規格者尚未改善或未提具替代 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2937.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2944.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
改善計畫或者未依照核定的改善計畫的期限改善完成各級的目的事業主管機關德議第88條規定予以處罰已經明確規範建築物應該設置建築物無障礙設施及設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2953.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2969.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
由內政部已經在建築技術規則定有無障礙建築物的專章並且具體落實建構無障礙環境目標故建築法第九十七條無需修正至於建構性別平權環境僅文字修正那本部尊重大院委員的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2971.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2989.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
對於多位委員提案修正建築法第99條之一將原住民族地區建築物納入得為簡化管理建築物的範圍部分考量現在已就實施範圍逐步在推動而且部分原住民的鄉鎮市區定位位於偏遠地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2990.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3001.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
建議仍由各地方政府橫著狹內現行偏遠地區實際需求因地制宜來推動尚不宜來修正最後委員提案有關修正平均地權條例第25條增訂無償工 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3005.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3016.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
公眾通行之法定空地施設通路以及開放空間享有地價稅之減免優惠之規定部分考量地價稅為地方稅而且經過財政部統計民國113年建築基地應保留之法定空地科徵地價稅金額約291億元左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3029.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3053.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
相關地價稅優惠將對地方政府之財政收入產生明顯的影響建議予以審慎並且依財政紀律法第五條規定指明彌補資金的來源以上就大院委員的修正法案作二要報告那其他修正內容的部分呢本部已經就這個書面報告提供給委員參考請各位委員多多指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3056.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3081.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好 謝謝劉世芳部長的報告我們其他單位的報告我們就請各位委員自行參閱我們會刊登公報現在進行詢答委員諮詢前遠離座以下幾點宣告第一 本會委員發言時間六分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘我們上午四點三十分截止發言登記我們今天只進行法案的這個詢答所以我們臨時提案截止提出時間為十一點與本會委員詢答完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3083.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3087.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
沒有好謝謝那我們現在進行詢答請登記第一位蘇喬惠委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請劉部長劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3106.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3133.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
來 部長好部長今天要審查這個建築法剛剛這麼多版本啊可見的我們委員對這個台灣的建築管理有非常非常多不同的想法跟期待那我們作為雙北的委員我們當然也關心不過我是這樣覺得我覺得政策啊想法啊其實如果能夠比較有共識一致的時候大家再來決定到修法那我覺得修法的速度才會快啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3133.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3136.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
不然從修法倒推回來講政策我覺得這個方向比較不容易達成共識這是我的想法所以我想我今天不就這個建築法各個版本跟部長細究我想要繼續來討論我們關心的這個老宅的問題部長這樣這個問題可以這方向可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3155.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3180.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好那我想為什麼討論老宅呢是因為我們這個在看到行政院要推出的這個強化經濟社會及國土安全任性的特別條例中我看到內政部打算匡列三年五十億的特別預算來推動老宅延售計畫不然我給你一點點時間喔你可以稍微簡要說明一下這是草案嘛還沒有正式推出你們的方向大概如何啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3181.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3183.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
非常謝謝蘇委員我想委員的非常高遠的意見有關老宅的部分我想是這個樣子我們在推動這個很多住宅的興建的時候我們要考慮住在住宅裡面的人尤其我們有發現到說根據內政部的統計資料在北三都的部分很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3201.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3221.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
老人家住在老宅沒錯那因為老人家的部分的話由長照或是其他的社會福利政策是可以協助但是如果他的房子本身的延壽也可以列為是一種比較屬於硬體方面的社會福利的協助的話我們很樂意幫忙所以院長他就覺得說那我們說不定可以放到特別預算來辦辦看所以我們現在目標大概是以500棟為主500棟對但是500棟 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3227.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3249.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
第一個要務就是說他這個老宅呢必須要有這個防震係數在45不然我們先確認一下您現在講的都還是草案嘛對不對還沒有正式公布就還沒有上路吧草案但是這是方向計劃抱怨就可以了計劃抱怨那位但目前還沒有嘛對不對因為因為預算對啊對啊所以因為你現在跟我們講的是方向嘛我們還有修改的空間好來繼續好 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3251.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3275.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那所以呢我們以這個方向來看就是說後來也發現到說若干的這些營造或者是建築師工業者他們也願意樂意幫忙是為什麼因為很多老宅其實他是健康的但是他只要做在室內裝潢或者是外面的這個防震做得好的話那老人家住在原來的老舊社區裡面他有老朋友這個生活圈不容易改變因為我們以往會覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3276.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3285.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
老人家如果讓他要住好一點要移到新的部分但是他就喪失原來生活圈的部分所以大部分我們在考量的時候我們也有跟衛福部一起討論也有跟很多團體包括老盟這些團體在推動所以我們認為這個方向是好的我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3295.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3317.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個利益大家現在都聽清楚了嘛我想利益良善沒有人會反對甚至是應該表示支持我們台灣的狀況就是這個嬰兒潮的這一代大家認真打拼買了房子但是隨著時間過去人也老了房子也老了但你叫他換新房子坦白講有點難但長輩現在住在所謂的不登公寓也就是四到六層樓這樣的公寓來講其實真的是蠻辛苦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3320.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3326.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那我們過去推出了非常多的政策包括輕盈換居啊這個我們的這個社宅的部分輕盈共居的部分那甚至是我們這個包租代管某程度也是希望你把老房子租出來給年輕人住那你就去住在有電梯的房子這也是一種但顯然這個狀況還不夠多所以現在推出了這個老宅修繕的計畫好那我就想請問啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3346.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3367.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這雖然利益良善不過因為條件限制上面第一你說的是30年以上第二是四到六層樓所以這兩個限制未來都會是就確定是這個方向嗎因為聽到了這個計劃的人坦白講是全社會蠻多的所以他第一他就來問那我七樓呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3368.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3393.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那我這個有其他的呢這個條件是怎麼定的為什麼是30年以上為什麼是4到6樓還有另外一個是因為你這邊寫的是無耐震疑慮這個大家就有話講了大家就覺得你是不是資源有限的狀況下還是應該要把耐震的部分先放在最前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3394.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3417.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這才是一個比較好的方式,不然你的回答是什麼?謝謝蘇委員的關心,我想你講到重點了其實有關耐震補強的部分呢,在我們的國土署它是今年累月在推動的所以是已經本來就有計劃嘛,對不對?是本來就有計劃那我們現在考量,就是老宅延壽要推出來的時候因為它涉及到內政部跟衛福部所以現在就是院長他先匡列50億 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3419.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3439.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那我們來試辦看看如果是好的話要往比較高樓或是有其他的必須要這個老宅延售的方向的話我們會在不管是公務預算或是基金預算或是特別預算再來繼續推動因為要修善一個房子不是今天講了明天拿到補助款房子自己就好了因為它有室外的公共空間也有室內的裝潢空間兩邊都要一起完成才是真正達到老宅延售然後照顧老人家的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3444.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3454.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 謝謝部長的說明我想藉著今天的這個對答我想大家應該可以更清楚我們耐震補強的計畫過去也有了而且未來還會繼續推因為它到2025年是計畫的最後一期對還會繼續吧還會繼續嘛因為這是公共安全的問題對嘛 所以耐震補強不但是過去已有的計畫而且未來也會繼續再推現在特別條例推出的是一個50年的計畫那為什麼是50因為就是試試看嘛所以因為試試看誰要替 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3472.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3496.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
攻略一個範圍50億的這個計畫來試試看那在這個試試看的狀況下我們當然有一個新的線有一個條件範圍先框住但如果執行的好的話其實是可以再擴增的部長的意思今天回答的應該是很清楚因為我們因應超高齡的這個時代來臨我們也必須要在這方面做一些社會福利跟無障礙的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3496.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3524.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我想我是本席是支持啦尤其是這個長輩如果無力維持屋況的狀況政府能夠給予補助或者甚至是引導我相信這個方向是好的所以這個老宅延壽的部分我想本席竟表支持這是第一個部分也是希望好我們也會努力加速啦這樣預算可以通過啦這個是我們立法院這邊可以做的那另外我想要問一個最後一分鐘的時間我想跟部長請教一下我過去有質詢過的部分就是在5月8號的時候我有問過 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3526.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3548.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
都市更新的審議量我這時候一直有問都市更新其實是各縣市各地方大家都在期待因為一定是都市更新計畫完成了之後才有後面所有方方面面到你家會受到影響的推動這沒有問題可是我們再再來看都市更新的都市計畫的審議其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3550.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3567.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
坦白講這時間真的是很長啦那我再說一次我們關心的新北的部分我們新北的部分本席特別關心的是從我自己的樹林行政園區開始樹林行政園區呢內政部的都委會最後一次的審議是在2023年12月26號至今已經一年半了 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3572.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3585.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那他的狀況是現在新北市也同意他要回歸到因為我們有好幾個案所以不如我們就是把第一個送進來的永和行政園區把永和的這一案審出一個結果來變成變成一個通則之後後面新北市的幾個案包括永和、土城、樹林、新莊三重的行政園區就follow這個通則來做沒有錯嘛對不對我們已經討論很多次了可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3600.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3618.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
永和行政園區到底要審到什麼時候呢我覺得我們在這裡利用公開的這個詢答的部分我們把事實再說一次也等一下請國土署這邊可以再回答到底問題在哪裡它第一次送進來永和的行政園區第一次送進來是2021年12月28日 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3620.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3627.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
一年之後2023年的1月3號再一次審議兩年之後時隔整整兩年2024年的12月17號是第三次的專業小組會議也是目前本案的最後一次審查那2024的12月17到現在已經又過半年了那他的狀況是在哪裡呢我也給其他新北市的委員們聽聽看嘛這個狀況現在是在等新北市政府補件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3650.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3667.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
現在我們到底要怎麼樣到底你可不可以催促他啊因為大家居民都在等你看從2021到現在一共只開過三次會啊 每次到底是他補件補得不夠快交件交得不夠好還是我們審查審得不夠好不夠快這個可不可以署長你講一下我們大家一起來推動嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3669.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3696.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
是跟委員報告其實因為永和行政園區這個案子因為它本身基地周圍的道路比較小但是市府所提出來的又是非常高容積的方案那所以在交通的疑慮還有這個未來執行的可行性上大概小組都很明確的請他們要做正確的評估但是我想歷次的我們都是很快就趕快做審查提供給他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3697.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3711.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
但就像委員所講的我們其實都在等新北市府的補件那只要只是他補件我們就會趕快再開小組趕快做確認那因為其他幾個行政園區也有類似的條件當然問題最嚴重應該是永和啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3712.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3726.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那要用通則到底是中央決定的還是地方要求的應該是說就幾個行政園區未來處理的機制也就是它是單純的一個行政機關還是未來還可以做其他高隆基轉做商辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3727.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3753.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
轉做其他這個住宅的形式的話那這個的確因為五個行政園區都有類似的問題所以我們希望新北市府要確認一個方向那經過小組審查完大會如果通過那其他的行政園區就比照這樣的一個模式來進行可是你用最難的來設立通走然後最難的要拖很久我們簡單的其實是如果不會太難的結果我們一直等那個不知道等到什麼時候這樣不是等於是我們後面的卡住了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3753.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3779.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
是 我想如果委員這個意見的話我想我們來跟新北市府討論一下他如果覺得其他的案子相對的困難度沒那麼高的話或許我們可以考慮在是不是再調整好 署長 因為這個備詢的資訊時間有限我想我們另外再做本案來做討論而且我想其他的新北委員其實也都非常關心因為這其實遍佈整個新北所以我希望你資料準備好我們到辦公室討論一下這樣好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝署長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3783.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3785.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝蘇喬惠委員 下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員大家早齁有請劉世芳 劉部長劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3804.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3829.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
蔣委員早部長好那還是首先第一題請教您一下14題就是有關於這個內政部最近推動全台中正路的改名引發爭議那您也有表示轉型正義是人權問題需要嚴肅對待不管是中央政府或地方政府不要把它當成有錢在推動沒有錢就不推動那您也有表示說不管是改路名還是去除雕像 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3830.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3845.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
或是去除威權主義的象徵如果遇到困難應該中央地方還有在地居民都有共識再來討論那依據內政部統計其實全台現在有300條中正路而且影響的人數會是上萬甚至數十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3846.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3865.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
的居民以及商家包含身份證戶口名簿土地權狀稅單交通站牌營業登記帳單地址等通通要跟著變那民眾現在很擔心不管地方政府受到壓力以及民眾會擔心改資料換證件就要花非常多的時間跟金錢的成本那依據現在網路民調統計也請部長參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3867.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3889.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
超過七成的民眾反對改名因為大家認為說其實不是民眾不重視轉型正義而是大家認為回歸生活現實比較重要因為這些重症錄早就變成大家生活習慣的地址了不會想到是威權的象徵民眾也認為說這樣子改名的話對民生其實沒有很多的幫助以前像 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3889.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3907.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
道路改名成功的案例像台北的軍公路改成和平東路四段這樣的改名其實也全部歷經了17年那也是經過在地民眾七成以上支持才一步一步的完成那我是不是想請教部長說現在中央沒有明確公告哪一些的地名哪一些的標誌 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3908.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3929.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
是屬於威權象徵跟建議改名的清單那導致地方不知道如何評估甚至會被質疑說是選擇性推動那是不是可以請教針對入名的部分可不可以說明一下或是未來有機會可以公告建議修改的名單還是完全交由地方自治然後地方來負責是不是請部長可以回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3930.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3950.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
謝謝張委員的關心如果按照張委員的講法的話那就請大院來修正促轉條例因為根據促轉條例的第五條跟第十一條之二的規定出現於公共建築或場所的紀念免懷威權統治者的象徵應與移除跟改名那各級政府機關構均應配合辦理這個是在2017年的促轉條例在大院通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3954.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3966.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那很多委員當時也都很多我們的這個執政者不管是中央跟地方當時也都是立法委員那所以我們是根據這個第五條跟第十一條之二的部分將這個威權統治者 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3969.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3998.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
現在局限就是蔣中正蔣經國命名的介入名稱這是屬於威權象徵因於改名所以事實上我們是根據這個大院所通過的這個法律來進行的那在進行的過程當中確實沒有錯就是我們有委託這個有一些這個文史團體來幫我們做一下研究它大概有四種不同的程度譬如說它只是一個塑像或是雕像那可能移除就很快但是移除的過程也不是搬了就走 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3999.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4025.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
就是還是要有完成譬如說它雕像所在地的地方或是學校或者是某一個公共場所之類的那這些移除也慢慢都在完成當中那當然了最難的部分呢是在於說這個張委員所提到的就是路民的改善的部分那因為內政部呢是地方制度的這個主管機關但是地方制度的執行機關並不是只有內政部還包括地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4025.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4037.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
所以地方政府要配合這個所謂的威權這個象徵時代的這個部分呢要這個改名的部分呢其實我們為什麼在新聞稿的時候有講清楚說這是一個法定的任務或者義務那法定義務的話就要編列預算那編列預算是可多可少因為看你這個狀況而定因為它不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4049.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4054.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
這個累積性的它只是一個特定的這特定時段完成就完成譬如說我們知道台中市改名為台灣大道或者是台南市政府它中正路把它加註有湯德章大道是類似的一個道理那我們都知道在推動的過程當中我都一再強調溝通非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4068.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4075.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這個溝通包括中央政府包括地方政府那包括這個地方上的這個民眾這文史團體那所以我才強調說這個轉型正義這個推動的過程當中要顧慮到轉型正義也要顧慮到程序正義因為我們是一個民主法治的國家內政部也是屬於行政院的這個一個部會而已我們不可能超越法律的授權去處理法律授權以外的東西那但是呢大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4095.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4103.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
對於推動這個改名的過程當中很多人有不同的看法有的人覺得說必須要這個就是威權的象徵那有的人覺得說啊無所謂而且呢他從小到大就在中正路吃麵線或者是吃陽春麵或者是吃外省麵長大的那這些呢都可以列入我們可以一起溝通討論的範圍所以我才強調說轉型正義一定要顧及到程序正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4120.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4144.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
然後我們希望不要造成這個很多的社會對立但是呢不造成社會對立不是表示你講你的我講我的而是說我們能不能溝通如果溝通有共識的話有共識我們就來推動那坦白跟這個委員講就是我們內政部自己民政司在推動有關轉型正義剛好今年的預算在包一大包裡面也是被凍結啦那但是呢我們都知道如果地方政府有需要的話我們會轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4146.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4166.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
到促轉基金來申請相關的基金預算來協助那以上簡單的報告好 謝謝部長的解釋那我想我剛剛也給部長一個清楚的說明機會那希望說未來地方政府在推動的時候也希望說內政部可以來指導一下看地方政府後續要如何去進行也要感受民眾的感受 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4168.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4174.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
主席,接下來我們要討論今天有關於建築法的一個修法那主要的問題點就是說這是根據建築法的第77條之二規定公共使用的建築物裝修必須使用申請室內裝修許可那必須要張貼在現場才可以施工 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4192.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4217.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那這些制度現在目前來看是非常的完整可是實務上常常看到有些商場為了要爭取一些時間未報準就先行動工或是因為他們的想法就是說企圖可以用還沒有這個申請核准就開始施工那創造一些時間差來說短暫停營業的一些損失那我想要請教就是說因為現在有如果一些裝修現場沒有申請沒有張貼也沒有這個消防防護計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4220.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4244.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那我們來請教一下因為我們知道說現在裝修的案子在全台灣非常的多那現有的茶盒的量能我們想應該是相對有點不足那我來想請教就是說那現有的機制面對這樣的情況的時候要如何來運行是不是說只能依照民眾檢舉那是不是說有一些主動申報的茶盒機制不能遇到事故才亡羊補牢是不是請署長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4246.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4269.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
感謝委員其實原來在試裝的這一個試裝辦法裡面本來針對這一個要張貼這個施工的資訊那在試裝辦法第29條都已經有明訂了所以在法令上來講因為建築法是母法所以我們在下授在建築屋的部分有建築基礎規則跟試裝的辦法那所以詳細的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4271.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4289.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
細節我們都會定在執法裡面所以這是原來在執法就有第二個就是說當然對於這一個申報開工它是屬於在被查制當然在形式上你如果沒有完成這樣子的話那經過稽查確實屬於未申報開工的話那當然可以依照建築法的規定去進行相關的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4290.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4305.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那但是就像委員所講的其實現在施工查驗的部分那地方政府其實有些地方政府還是屬於在行政裡面自己會去辦相關的稽查但是也有些縣市政府已經都有委託相關的工會去做稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4306.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4323.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那至於這個稽查的量能跟次數要不要再增加我想我們可以再找地方政府來研議這部分我們原廠都會尊重地方政府就他的行政機制上要如何來加強那我們會站在監督的立場就是說再跟他們討論看看是否請他們再加強這個稽查的次數好 謝謝署長那署長就是說因為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4328.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4349.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
整個機制來講我們現在就在協助努力不管是地方機場的加強或是請工會來協助那可是我現在比較擔心的是說會不會因為資訊不透明會有一些違法裝修的一些問題那變成說如果以民眾他們有沒有辦法及時查詢相關有沒有在裝修的這些資訊那如果或者是發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4350.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4362.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
發現的違規行為那是不是有一些可以可以去這個國土署我們把設置相關裝修許可的資料的網站讓民眾來查詢不是大家就是檢舉來的時候沒有一些可以依照的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4363.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4390.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
感謝委員其實我們陸陸續續現在雖然地方政府自己有的有能力做相關的網站那來揭露但是我也知道有些地方政府礙於經費是他並沒有揭露相關的這個資訊那這個我想我們來檢討我們署內的這一個健管相關許可的網站來找地方政府來討論看是否一種是鼓勵地方政府設另外一種就集中把這些資訊也集中到我們的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4390.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4401.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那我們也來做一些管理我想委員這個建議我們來找地方政委一起來商討好 謝謝副市長 謝謝副市長感謝委員謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請麥義貞委員質詢謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4417.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4443.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
有請我們的國土署署長吳署長有請委員好好 署長好要請教署長依照我們建築法第77條之2第4項的規定收權訂定了什麼法規 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4449.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4469.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
委員指的是市莊管理辦法的修正嗎?這個是建築物市內修正管理辦法啦所以我是要問你有沒有知道我想要請教一下依據建築物的市內裝修管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4471.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4473.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
25條的規定室內裝修圖說應由開業建築師或專業設計技術人員署名負責當店建築物之分間隔位置變更增加或減少經審查機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4492.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4498.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
認定涉及公共安全時應經開業建築師簽證負責其中室內裝修法的25條字建築物自分間 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4509.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4533.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
的分間牆的位置變更 掙扎或減少經審查機構認定涉及公共安全的認定條件國土署陳若是在今年二月底前提出具體修正文字意見請問修正文字在哪裡 我們都沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4534.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4559.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
跟委員報告這一個我們在1月開會的時候那的確當時有希望各縣市政府還有建築公會全聯會還有市莊公會全聯會他們都應該要提出相關的修正意見那截至目前為止兩個公會之間提出來的建議是完全不一樣當然因為這個母條文裡面大概原來提的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4560.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4583.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
涉及這個如果涉及到分間牆的位置變更的話那它有可能涉及到結構安全的這個部分那建築師認為本來就是應該由他們但是試裝工會是認為在有些執行的部分還是屬於室內裝修的項目應該是由試裝工會來所以現在兩個工會之間的爭執的旗艦是比較大所以我們有收集他們的文字以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4583.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4592.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們內部還在做研議然後盡量再找他們來大家希望能達成一個共識因為兩方的意見是完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4593.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4610.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
但是我們的建築室內裝修就是簽證表要改成專業就是設計技術人員的簽章表目前的推動進度我們也沒有看到所以我要請教一下因為有沒有心要做這件事情別人是怎麼樣你們去整合所以不能說我們沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4621.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4650.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
跟我們報告我們還是持續在推因為兩個工會之間的看法的確是差距很大但是涉及到他們所謂的專業分工因為建築師會認為這可能涉及結構安全還是應該由他們主政由他們來簽證但是室內裝修工會是認為分間搶不一定會涉及所以這個部分涉及到專業的認定我想我們還是會跟兩個工會再來做協調盡可能讓他們最後的意見是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4651.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4670.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們是在室內裝修管理辦法第33條立法精神為行政及專業分立為加強行政的效力各縣市政府審核文件是否齊全內容由專業技術人員簽章負責所以請問我們署長你知道現在的狀況是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4678.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4692.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
不能又說工會嘛應該是這麼說啦應該是說你要把它簡化的話當然我們是簡化了作業我想原則行還是會跟地方政府去談簡化作業但是應該這麼說簡易的室內裝修的申辦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4696.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4708.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
原則上還是要有所謂的專業技術人員簽章這件事情才能再具以推動並不會說他只是直接線上申辦其實關鍵不是在於是否是線上申辦而是程序還是不能檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4709.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4711.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
對 但是我們現在情況就是說各個縣市政府是還有對於就是檢移裝修的案件實施就是逐漸審查不是抽查然而我們的業者為了求快速通過通常就是委任建築師或者是到個就是跑照公司辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4731.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4735.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
市场申请价最少就是6万最多就10万了请问这样子的不是老民吗如果是这样子的高费用大大的影响我们小小的住宅业的业主的申请的意愿 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4748.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4770.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以我們署長你覺得這樣子的落實簡易裝修的立法精神在哪裡我們希望說我們簡易裝修的精神是可以就是申請就是申請比照就是我目前我們消防安全的這樣子的一個通過線上申請辦法如果你你沒有去改變變成是 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4773.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4777.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
萬一就是因為檢移而已但是沒有去申請大家變成我們要希望的是檢移的是合法化但是你沒有給檢移通過變成大家就是要花錢你看多少人要去花這個錢變成發生事情誰要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4790.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4817.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
跟委員報告啦那因為所謂的這個檢疫的這個試裝啦其實大概各縣市政府的定義其實也不太一樣這會跟現在的那個建築物形式會有不同的差距而且也會跟他營業的項目或是他屬於自住的部分會有差別那我知道有些縣市政府已經開始有訂那因為我們本來那個就是下售給地方政府去各自去訂定他們所謂的檢疫試裝的內容跟簡化的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4819.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4839.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那這個部分如果要來談的話我想我們來召集地方政府那是不是把某些已經訂定的縣市政府提供給其他的縣市政府大家一起來討論看看其他縣市政府願不願意跟那至於線上申辦這件事大概也會涉及到地方政府的現在目前網站經營的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4839.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4854.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那所以這個部分是不是我們也來找地方政府來開會那希望他們能夠follow某一些縣市政府的這個做法那是不是大家各縣市政府都來統一來示範看看那這樣的話或許可以對民眾來講會比較簡單因為時間的關係齁因為第一個問題就是說工會的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4859.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4864.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
第二個問你就是地方的問題因為這是地方政府所以這個就是我們要問中央就是希望你去溝通嘛如果是什麼都是別人的話你有面做署長啊最後要問你一下我們內政部因為找出源頭嘛內政部還有經濟部根據產業界的反應目前經濟部的登記室內設計業與室內裝修業 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4886.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4890.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
分裂不清無法辨識是否就是合法合格但是我們內政部的範圍導致大量的消費者誤信就是說是無業的無證的業者就才會引起更多的糾紛所以我們要要找出的源頭就是登記的時候名稱制度設計過於方寬所以就是形成就是非法的承納依據我們的統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4915.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4938.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
租宅裝修糾紛每年破千件經濟部長期末與內政部建立查核的或者標準沒有一致的機制是否就是失職所以是否醫院推動就是內政部共同建立就是登記管理的技術證照連動制的這樣子的話才不會說避免就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4944.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4963.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
掛羊頭賣狗肉啦所以我們才會來去問你嘛這個事就是源頭找出源頭讓你知道說跟委員報告因為我們屬於內政部的部分就確實只有室內裝修業就只有那因為這個在經濟部商業商業是這個地點說明一下這是經濟部的你要找哪一個說明一下三個業者找誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4969.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4980.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
就是我們的部分就是室內裝修依據室內裝修管理辦法來執行的內容那這個就是屬於室內裝修業說明一下這三個行業是在經濟部登記的並不是在內政部所以剛才你就說要找出源頭就是內政部跟經濟部如何去研議因為我們的也有相關的辦法去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4994.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5018.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們本來就有相關的辦法去執行那這個部分確實就是只能在這樣的規則去下至於有一些不屬於市莊的這個範疇那當然他去從事其他的行業登記那再來就不屬於我們業館所以也跟我們說明一下市內裝修他有很明確的定義範圍跟內容那你的你所謂裝修的內容符合的話那就要申請是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5023.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5034.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
現在我才說經濟部跟內政部就是源頭你們訂的方法還有給的都不明確我們的內容都是很明確的但是我們人民就是搞不清楚這個因為可以做的內容非常多但是有些必須要透過專業的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5046.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5051.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
剛才你說什麼工會兩個工會是他們的事情他們要怎麼樣跟你們的事情等一下第二項就是說內容非常多所以才說你們是國土署你們內容很多跟經濟部內政部共同希望我們今年就是年底我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5066.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5081.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
署長這邊就是完成室內設計相關的行業的分類就是整理跟我們報告其實現在就很明確了其實現在就是非常明確只是它有些項目不屬於應該只是有些項目不屬於試裝的內容你要問十個人民你才知道要去裝修室找哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5089.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5094.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以這個部分很明確的是說沒有明顯所以我們希望說登記還有說是否就是要具體的就是表格所以我是最後一個建議我們室內設計不只是裝潢美學這個牽涉就是公共安全我們建築合法性的產業正義這個是一個一個就是龐大的從業人口最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5119.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5121.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
高度的專業技術的行業卻有長期就是法治的邊緣制度不健全不分層級不設門檻導致就是優質的設計師無法獲得應有的肯定非法施工卻就是橫行無止所以危害人民的生命安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5139.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5144.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我們看到的內政部就是常常有R5的動作他們在這樣講話一閃點點經濟部也是在認得混亂所以呢我們的行業的混亂所以導致今天怎樣去做所以我們就是說要希望我們國家尊重應有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5159.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5162.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
的專業所以我們希望要求就像我要求的你要做到你才要去回應我我要求的你都說別的所以我們希望我們制度的作業三個月內提出我們的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5176.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5180.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
時程的規定還有經濟部因為經濟部今天有來因清理產業的分類登記範圍還有配合內政部建立一個就是有職業登記與查核的標準我們不能再為了一個成熟的產業卡死在就是制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5197.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5202.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
的的驅離希望各部會不要再推著也是說我們的行政處理的對待這個國家的需要改革制度不改產業不會成長社會安全也沒辦法就是這樣子付出這樣的代價所以說我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5216.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5226.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
署長,我們提出的問題,你來解決問題,不要什麼都是罷人,罷人應該死不了,安排他的台階步驟,我們希望是要這樣,要有這樣子的要求我希望你就提出明確的報告,還有具體的進度表,才是你要去承諾大家的,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5242.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5244.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
主席,我們請部長跟國土署署長部長跟署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5269.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5287.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
跟部長應該知道最近隔離期跟婚禮都有發生健康基礎的問題在這裡面說實在的,我們都覺得說我們的百姓欠也欠,去買買一間房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5295.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5303.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
以前是怕自己買的時候不便宜所以我們中央政府有一個信託在信託裡面我們有五個方法讓健康的選擇可以在我看起來這五個方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5321.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5327.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
差不多都是保障健康完全沒有看到說我們要處理好萬一健康倒下或是健康沒有進行的時候要如何對我們的百姓來有什麼幫助尤其這五個方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5351.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5354.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
不是我們買房子的人選擇的啦是建商自己選擇的尤其跟他最近發生了一件事這個建商是選擇他的基金互相 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5371.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5373.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
他在這個規定裡面,雖然我們沒有在祈祷,沒有在什麼,也知道他們家鄉有很多公司的,互相來做報,這間如果倒閉,一年代的關係,就都倒閉了,所以說保證,這個規定當中,我真的看到, |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5398.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5404.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
這二十五個,我們的服務組的定情,對我們的企業是這麼大,要不要收了解起來?說實在,我鼻鼻鼻鼻的很辛苦,你看他們欠也欠,有的拿八十萬,有的已經拿兩百幾萬,要不然,我們才有辦法保障他們什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5428.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5432.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
像我們說的那樣,因為他還有信託啊,所以我不怕結果沒記住說,那棟房子已經去到95%了,已經要交他們的租金了,一箱給他拿回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5449.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5450.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
像這個問題,雖然我們沒有辦法去管理健康,但我們的心保是不是要有一個修改改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5466.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5468.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我感覺看起來,這國家怎麼幫助北省什麼啦所以在這裏面的過程當中,保證你有什麼好的意見給這裡的北省年輕人想要買房子,不可以再封,說那麼難聽的,說這麼方便啦說好聽的,說健康又沒錢沒資料去北省爛尾路啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5495.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5500.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以保證在這裡我最緊要講到四分之一你如何要讓北省知道嗎說實在對一個北省人來說有的有錢人聽到沒什麼對一個北省人對我來說我作為北省人說的話是非常心痛的保證是不是你有什麼好辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5525.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5531.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
報告委員 感謝委員的關心尤其是這間部份一般聽說就是爛尾樓但是這19戶裡面已經全部賣掉了但是以前有拆出一個叫做 戒金信託 價金信託就是從我來講 保険在裡面選定 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5550.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5563.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那價金信託的部分呢我們怎麼樣從這個地方來拆解包括說未來可能要走到民事訴訟的部分相關的處理機制我可不可以請我們地政司長幫你報告一下好不好我們這裡來看要如何的改觀因為 司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5566.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5568.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
因為保庭法解說這樣,我告訴你,是覺得我們未來這個環不是保障健康,在我所了解,他的地已經是第二、第三台,所有有19號買的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5588.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5596.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我全都沒辦法請出任何什麼職所以說在這個規定裡面,我們的手法裡面漸漸世代的變化,我們北省的立委說,我覺得有信託 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5606.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5613.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
跟健相拿回去,我找小孩就好了結果沒去過,第五條的這個找小孩的時候小孩說,跟他去交代,跟我給他娘,跟他一娘了了 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5621.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5640.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
市長你知不知道那個委員一直很關心這個案子所以那個嘉義市的部分已經在昨天有召開消保的一個調處那這個房子的話建案其實是已經蓋好可是死到還拿不出來那因為昨天因為建商他們也沒有出面所以以至於調處不成 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5641.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5662.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那其實嘉義市政府之前也在有透過工會在看有沒有建商有續建的機制這個也是另外在處理的一條路那委員特別關心就是有關於預售履約保證機制就是要怎麼樣照顧好我們買方保護好我們買方其實我們內政部從去年前年就開始去做一些相關的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5663.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5684.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那因為那會涉及到...那相關的檢討到現在有檢討到什麼出來嗎因為現在的部分要涉及到修正預修預定型化契約的規定那你現在說的就是要修出來的嘛風雄都出來了風雄都出來了風雄都出來了 要不然對甲乙氏發生這件事都沒辦法知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5685.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5688.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
市長,我們有研究要怎麼改善,不是一組研究兩組研究,部隊也要研究,職員也要研究,不是這樣啦!我們發生事情,覺得沒有辦法保障社會這件事,我們就要過程處理啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5709.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5713.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你現在這樣在那裡煩人了,發動的聲聲鼓鼓都說,我們應該要關心民生啦!的事情啦!大家記住了!記住了!市長,說實在,我身為在家裡的妻子的時候,我看到這個來發生的時候,我相信我們為了不是家家裡的妻子而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5736.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5737.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
很多地方都有,結果沒辦法,變成沒辦法啦!市長,在這裡我也知道你還沒提出啦!我先跟你在這裡談到的時候,我問你多久可以提出? |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5756.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5762.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們現在已經說了差不多了,存一些細節再處理有時候我們在沙溝內有個方案...沙溝的喔?沙溝的依賴如果發生什麼事情,他們就憑什麼不說我也是自己的事件,我們這裡的案件是不是會斷更快 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5777.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5792.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那個委員報告一下嘉義市的部分我們先請嘉義市政府協助民眾看是不是從什麼相關的法律途徑先來處理是啦,可以改革開支可以還是可以你們看我後面不會在這裡發這麼大的脾氣啦因為說實在找的問題都找了啦這是我們覺得說我們這個說話難聽的啦正經的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5806.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5825.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
一定要保護健康啦所以未來一定要保護賣出的人啦我們現在的風險就是保護消費者賣出的消費者市長你剛才說三公尾你會再提早多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5831.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5837.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有涉及到那個消費者我知啦我才不知有涉及到這個問題即使我不是在這裡幫你努力他說三個月、兩個月、一個月我們負責任外省就可以負責任幫助一些人買房子 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5851.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5853.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
回到我的家鄉可以拿到三天補貨啦所以市長這件事要緊好不好好謝謝委員在這裡我要跟我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5865.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5870.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這裡討論我們今天的建築法裡面,有第73條第一項的規定就是說,我們這一項,它的建築物,如果可以申請加水加電,但是電池為了照顧它弱勢的家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5889.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5896.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
他要去違章,要去申請,要不然他那麼弱勢,他沒水沒電,說實在也可能所以在這個過程當中,我們台北市在83年以上,台灣在92年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5911.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5914.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
有的事都沒有在認可,但是在這個規定當中,我認為,如果你有特殊弱勢,我們本來就要到三天後,我們中央照顧這個弱勢到出多少錢,關心多少,但是也不能亂來,像這個問題當中,我認為我們要一視同仁, |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5941.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5943.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們不能做爛好人啦,李署長,我先跟你講一下,要如何去這個問題,做好全台灣合併幫的條例,來 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5958.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5968.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
跟委員報告 其實當時這個母法的規定本來就會預留一個預留一個就是說有特殊條款啦也就是說我們就很了解有一些稍微比較偏遠啦或是說有一些地方 它有可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5973.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5982.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
有一些透過一個傷害 尤其是骨瘤的處啦它如果經過地震或有傷害過 它如果要頂著它總不可能說 我一個頂著 我處要頂卡住 還頂著我相信我們有很多的情形是 原地這個辦法就頂不住所以我們原地在這個條文裡面就是希望說你地方政府如果確實有迫切民生需要的那這一些其實就會變成說 它是本來就可以除外條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5999.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6006.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那所以就這個部分我們也是希望讓地方政府有自己的經過自己的需要啦因為每一次的經營確實沒有工所以這一點我們為什麼...阿那這樣台北市給他通過他中間差九噸是阿所以... 阿那他會在一個八成覺得比較倒霉 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6020.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6031.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
應該這樣說啦 因為我想在很多地方他也會有一些除外條款那除外條款當然地方政府會去以實際情形去認啦不會說一定要強制去做我認為我們中央的手法是要專門照顧全台灣的百姓尤其這條是照顧全台灣百姓若是 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6042.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6048.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以我們勿忙 再照顧好 既然要修緩的時候我們就要注意不好好的變相是一個太過親切的條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6059.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6068.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
因為這件事你要特別注意因為我講這樣應該署長你做得很久了我去台南來你了解我講的問題出一台因為我們鼓勵有正經的我們鼓勵有正經的部分太多了因為這時候都跟民生都合作好我也不需要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6082.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6089.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
有遇到任何傷害或其他事件,你就要再過去打電話來我會這樣說,你要去香港的主委,我們要修衛生不要覺得說有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6095.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6107.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我了解 因為他出事了 當然你今天如果遇到公共安全危險當然我們也要 要檢修那個環節 那是不對啦好 醫生 署長 這要注意喔好 謝謝 王美惠委員的質詢這個爛尾樓的問題 這希望內政部盡速來做研議啦這我們不排除 到時候要用專保的方式來處理齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6124.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6126.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
下一位我們請張宏祿委員質詢我先請署長吳署長有請主長其實今天我們要討論的這些不管很多建築法或平均地權條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6153.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6162.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
很多我覺得都有道理啦都從各個角度去看都有道理但如果把它入法在母法裡面寫這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6164.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6192.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
很多的因地制宜的這個好像又沒有了不知道署長你的看法對其實我們其實就整個建築法的修法來講我們其實長期的方向應該是盡可能在某些條件只做原則性的揭示那盡可能尊重地方因為建管畢竟是地方的權責地方的權責為主所以我們有些部分是希望由授權地方政府來因地制宜會比較妥適一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6194.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6209.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
因地制宜其實也是個彈性啦我舉一個啦齁如果說署長沒有拿到死照的房子是合法房屋嗎呃應該是說他有一些是屬於早期那不不不不不不 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6210.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6225.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我先問你 如果是新蓋的房子新蓋的那當然他沒有辦法合法他如果拿不到死照的應該說是沒有拿到 還是拿不到死照拿不到死照那通常就代表他在建築設計上是可能有違反相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6226.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6255.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
可能違反安全規定 可能違反什麼 也有很多啊對不對是 也有可能違反土地使用規定 可能都有對 好 我們先不用管他違反使用規定啦有可能他的這一些安全措施或什麼的所以他拿不到死照那如果是在獨匯區裡面如果我們通過了他會不會用這個法律的條文去要求地方政府先給他接水電會不會有這種情況發生也是有可能啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6256.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6259.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
也是有但是一般的應該有很大的可能吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6260.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6284.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
對啦 因為他的狀況真的大家都不太一樣對嘛 如果你設多位區的話應該有很大的可能那他如果接的水電的話我跟你講可能他沒有拿到實照很多人可能就會偷偷搬進去他可以以工地的方式或什麼他可能可以在裡面喔 就可以生活了喔應該有些是最重要還有一些是屬於營業據點的違規營業 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6286.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6315.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我本來還要再講你先講違規營業跟違規入住都有可能對嘛最主要我本來就要問如果是一個商場或營業的他沒有拿到死照他如果可以接水電他可以做很多事情沒錯對不對所以我覺得你如果入法的話會有非常大的問題因為你母法已經規定了這樣也會衍生很多的問題喔包括交屋包括什麼的這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6317.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6323.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個署長如果是這樣的話以後你們國土署跟地方政府要怎麼處理這些問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6326.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6349.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
可是目前來講違反建築法跟接水接電它是沒有相關的直接對接關係你違反建築法不不不 我只說它只是還沒拿到死罩啊你也不能認定它百分之百違法啊在它還沒拿到死罩之前它就可以接水電它可以做很多事喔我只問你一個市營運的時候要不要拿到死罩 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6350.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6374.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
試營運的時候要拿到屎罩因為你正常營運的話是一定要拿到屎罩不然我就說試營運啦有沒有拿到屎罩因為營運的話你有營業行為一樣反正就是要拿到屎罩才可以試營運嘛只要使用就是要拿到那我如果在其他的不是六都裡面我可能我就借這個漏洞我先拿到水電我也沒有說我要營運啊是歐洲門開著啊你要進來啊會不會有這種情況發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6379.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6402.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
過去的確尤其在某些地方大概農地違章工廠這個狀況是比較嚴重是特別的嚴重我就說樣態很多太多了所以其實要解決問題我認為都要解決但如果你只把它入母法我覺得這個危險性太大了那我再請這個複稅署的副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6408.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6431.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
副稅主陳副組長有請其實我們今天也有講到就是說吳署長也有你的事喔今天有一個說公眾通行的法定空地、私設公路、開放空間享有地下稅減免我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6432.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6454.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
有些部分確實需要去處理但如果入母法會有我剛說的那個問題發生我想請問一下101有沒有法定空地有對不對那他的法定空地他有沒有目前有沒有工人無償的通行 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6456.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6479.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
有沒有應該有啦一定有啦101那麼大怎麼可能會沒有應該只是有全部或沒有全部而已只是有沒有全部啊但他還是有啊對不對那他沒有全部但他我依法令通過我依這個我要求我減美地他就不用繳地價稅如果101可以這樣子不用法令空地可以不繳地價稅你們覺得合理嗎你們覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6483.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6505.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
應該這麼說啦,因為所有的這種所謂的開放空間或是法定空地,它當時依照建築法規定的時候它其實只是限縮它的興建空間,並不代表說它因此而受損那包含它無場公、中眾通行,它本來就是也是認定是它的責任之一,這也是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6506.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6511.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
有些尤其是開放公簽他是因此而取得容積獎勵的那這個關鍵就變成說你相關的權利跟義務關係是對等的狀況下又去主張所謂的減稅那其實在這種所謂的行使權利義務的對等關係上來講是比較說不過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6526.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6541.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我舉這個例子其實例子是有兩極啦101這個大家絕對都不同意吧都覺得101你怎麼可能可以不繳嗎這是一個那再來你的法定空地還有什麼還是不是你的私人成全 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6542.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6562.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
是嘛 未來如果要重建未來或怎麼樣的 都還是私人土地嘛是不是啊未來還可以都跟分配回來啊對嘛 是嘛齁所以啦 我覺得啦 這一個要解決問題你如果把它入母法裡面啦 你會衍生出更多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6565.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6580.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
為什麼要請複稅組其實我們現在的這個土地稅法裡面其實就有規定了吧對不對那我們如果要解決有一些比如說比較不是都會區裡面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6583.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6607.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那我們用土地稅法來處理應該是比較直接也比較快吧副署長跟委員報告因為在土地稅減免規則裡面本來就有規定說是無償公共通行的道路它本來就是免地價稅那這個部分是因為法控的部分在112年經過憲法法院來判決認定的時候其實法控沒有免地價稅是沒有違反平等原則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6608.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6625.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那他這個只是在判決的最後面有附帶說他如果有超過他應該要超過他的法令控制範圍的時候因為他可能無償公共通行大過他的法令控制範圍的時候希望我們去考量一下那這個部分我們有真的有跟內政部在密切合作在做考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6626.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6638.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就是還是要請法定公立所有權人去申請分更如果能夠分得出來說哪一個部分是屬於公眾通行的話其實是經過認定完之後用凸檢的規定就可以來做一個處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6641.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6665.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
反正我認為啦現在用土地稅法用什麼的可以處理這些問題也不用再來入母法我的意思是這樣但這些問題要不要解決我認為要解決啦還是必須要解決但是如果我們現在馬上就入母法就會產生101的問題101它可以合法你就是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6667.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6692.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這樣子對全國來講我覺得會有不公平的地方是 我也補充另外一個概念這是在實務上的問題就是說當你出去所謂無場公 公眾通行的時候就現在的狀況 你有些原來是私設通路也是屬於你產權的部分經過一定的時效以後使用人 也就是說使用這條道路的人也是可以主張他變成現有巷道 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6693.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6711.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這是在地方舉證現有向到實務上非常嚴重的一個問題也就是說我們在過去地方處理的經驗上發生過原本只是私設通路但是因為私設通路是供特定人使用但是你一旦同意開放成無償提供公眾通行 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6712.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6734.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
據一定時效就會變成人家可以主張這是現有向道現有向道會影響你未來這本身基地的產權範圍跟你的申請建築範圍還有你申請法控的權利這都會衝擊這個都知道嘛你公共通行久了幾十年之後為什麼你變成了既有向道了就是對你原來的所有權利就會產生影響對所以我說這個問題要解決啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6739.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6757.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
不能不解決啦今天這個我覺得方向是對的但我的意思是說可以不用修平均季節條例修其他的法例就可以解決了你如果修平均季節條例就會說我說的101的現象這點大家要去深思要去思考啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6759.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6777.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這個樣態有太多啦都會區的跟非都會區的也有很多啦然後有的呢在透過土地買賣他可能地級熟了他也不知道之前是怎樣結果又變成這樣這些我覺得都應該要去解決人民的困擾那如果你繼承鄉道你也有很多現在是繼承鄉道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6778.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6793.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
你政府還沒徵收啊你政府還沒徵收你沒那寫繼承相當你政府沒有徵收你還是有的地方他如果地主不知道他也沒申請他沒有申請有的還是傻傻的繳稅也是有這種啊對不對所以我覺得這個問題要解決但我在這邊就是說解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6798.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6827.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
要不要修母法 大家要考慮一下 不然全台灣都適用這個我覺得要這個啦 柏霖你柏霖你覺得這樣一句話就好了我同意張委員的看法啦原則上因為還有法控如果要減免地價稅的話是地方稅那我們也確實詢問過所有的地方政府 他們都不是很同意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6828.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6850.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們地方稅收多不多我覺得那是一件事情我們今天是要解決合理跟不合理我們是解決合理跟不合理就不要再平均地權條例處理我只是擔心你真的在這邊修了真的我剛講的101就不用繳稅了這一點大家要思考一下這補充你聽得懂嗎我聽得懂我同意張委員的看法好 謝謝張宏祿委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6858.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6859.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
下一位我們請高金素美委員質詢謝謝召委我要請這個管理署署長還有建築管理組組長園民會公共建設處副處長吳組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6881.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6894.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
原住民族周副處長還有一個建築管理組陳組長請部長先休息一下但是希望您能夠仔細聆聽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6896.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6913.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
原住民族在我們這塊土地上生存已經超過六千年了我相信這個是大家都同意的一件事情早在國民政府來台之前我們各部落也早已經自給自足居住還有我們自己的生活體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6914.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6936.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
而國民政府來台灣之後呢 陸續以所謂的建築法 還有非都市土地使用管制規則等等這樣的法規以非原住民的生活方式 然後把都市規則全面的套用在原鄉地區全然就不顧上面早就早有已經有人居住 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6936.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6958.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以一夕之間原住民的土地就變成制度的非法地我們如果以蘭嶼為例全島大概有95%的土地跟建物都是不合法使用的但是這些人早就已經在這裡市居好久了也早已經建屋成家 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6960.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6983.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
為什麼會這樣呢因為我們全島超過九成被亂化為林業用地當時的立法或者是化為林業用地的方式是非常粗糙的那現在我們的居民一旦要依照規則申請所謂的建造百分之九十以上全部都遭拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6985.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6990.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
署長 組長 還有我們的副處長你們都知道這件事吧我們請園民會先發表一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6997.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7024.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
主席還會我講的對不對對好那麼蘭嶼不是例外這幾乎是原鄉它普遍的現象過去的建築還有土地使用規劃非常的粗糙非常的武斷這導致我們部落擁有的土地被限制不能蓋房子不能夠登記不能夠繼承長年以來原住民的土地的違建率高達90% |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7027.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7036.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
包括我們的商工所包括我們的代表處包括我們的教育的建築物全部都是違建這不是我們族人的錯這是制度設計壓迫的結果但是目前我們原住民有55個原鄉12個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7048.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7074.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
土地除了受到國土計劃法的規範還同時受限於所謂的國家公園法都市計劃、特定區域法等等二十多種的法規層層的限制也重疊的衝突中央法規沒有鬆綁地方政府它執行根本就是無所適從這導致我們的族人想要在部落居住卻因為這樣子的惡法而受限 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7078.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7099.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們本來期待原住民族土地使用管制規則能夠通盤的來解決可是非常的遺憾這項規則草案卻因為國土計劃法的修正草案溝通不足難以準時上路我們的族人又要再等六年請問部長針對原鄉長期的困擾現在有什麼具體的解決方案請您簡單的說明然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7107.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7122.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我們請署長最好 部長可以先休息感謝委員 那其實委員在去年我想去年在國土計畫法討論的時候委員也多次來詢問就有關原住民地區的這一個建築的一個合法的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7123.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7130.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這部分我們在國土計畫的這個部分也有在持續努力當中我覺得現在已經延宕了嘛六年了目前我們不能夠再等六年啊我瞭解那所以就有關在這個建築管理的部分其實上次有跟我們報告過就建築法99條本來就有一些簡化的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7140.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7159.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那也經過上次委員有垂詢過我們有正式做過調查現在至少有六個縣市是有訂定就有關原住民建築的部分是有那但是因為的確調查起來有些原住民地區他並不屬於偏遠那有些甚至是劃在都市計畫區內的那過去的做法就是在都市計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7160.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7179.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
可以針對這些比較特殊的去訂定土地使用管制的規則還有相關的建築規則那有些縣市政府的確都還沒有訂那所以我們在上一次國土計畫以後本來也就請各縣市政府回去再研究看看就有關原住民的這個部分那是有需要透過哪些比如有些都計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7180.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7194.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
有些是你的這個偏遠建築的這個規則要去訂那這些我們都有持續請地方政府要提出來再修訂那這個我們都會每年度都會來檢視看看地方政府的做法您所說的正是我今天想要救救您的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7195.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7208.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
沒錯建築法第99條之一有明定規定都市計劃法以外地區或偏遠地區的建築物可以予以簡化管理並且要授權地方政府擬定簡化辦法然後報內政部核定理論上是給族人一條活路可是您剛剛講目前只有六個縣市有簡化的規範請問一下是不是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7220.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7237.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
可以明確要求各縣市應該要盡速訂定簡化的管理辦法這已經是法律授權的難道我們內政部完全都不做統籌不給指導嗎現在我要請部長請上台了 謝謝劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7240.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7254.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
好 部長剛剛署長也說了我們的問題已經非常的清楚所以我是不是可以在這邊要求在縣市政府因為有法源依據可不可以請我們的內政部跟縣市政府趕快討論一下這個簡化的流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7257.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7257.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
新竹縣和台中市的做法值得肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7277.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7296.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
他們是依照實際的情況提出了兩項放寬的重點聽一下第一個是凡是樓地板的面積沒有超過495平方公尺它的高度沒有超過三樓而且是具傳統特色的建築就可以納入合法的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7297.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7307.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
第二個只要具原住民族特色的臨時性或紀念性而且是非公居住使用的建築物或雜項工作物例如我們有竹屋有穀倉有瞭望台有涼亭等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7315.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7337.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
也予以適當的鬆綁這些規範是地方政府它根據在地文化跟現況所做的合力調整但這些進展它是非常零星片段的它還不足以形成系統性的解套方案需要我們的中央大力的來支持所以在去年的3月20號的質詢我也提醒過署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7342.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7346.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個事情是非常重要的可是到現在一直沒有進展所以我在這一次要再提出來要強烈的要求內政部兩件事情好嗎第一件事情就是內政部應該要盡速訂定通案指導原則來協助各縣市制定簡化辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7364.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7385.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
並且要提供技術指導跟財政的獎勵第二個國土署你們應該就各地簡化的條例內容來進行整理跟對照要提出一份最佳的實務會編讓我們各地方政府有所依循然後也可以按照現況做例外的規範請問部長還有署長我這樣兩點要求應該不過分吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7390.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7415.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
報告高經委我想您的看法我們支持也就是說根據99條之一其實各縣市地方政府如果有原鄉有這樣需求的話我們本來就應該來幫忙所以是不是容許我們在一定的時間之內跟原民會還有各縣市地方政府把這個通案性的指導原則訂出來因為原住民族自己本身像剛剛您提到的竹屋良亭 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7416.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7436.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
它的建構有沒有符合族群上面歷史上的要求而不是有公共安全上面的顧慮的話原則上我們會同意那剛剛所提到台中市政府或者是新竹縣還有我了解好像苗栗縣他們有訂定那其實都是個很好參考那我想我們可以提供這樣子給其他的縣市政府來做比較好的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7437.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7465.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
然後訂定一個指導性的原則非常好 我們今天的交流非常的棒縱使國土進化法延宕了六年我們希望在這六年當中能夠解決原住民長期以來建築不公平的問題那我今天也有臨時提案我希望在臨時提案是一個月內 對吧一個月內能夠來可以嗎 請問署長可以嗎 我們可以來處理好 謝謝 所以今天的臨時提案也希望你們的支持 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7468.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7474.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好謝謝高清素美委員的諮詢下一位我們請黃婕委員諮詢好謝謝主席我們先請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7490.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7512.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
委員早好 部長早這邊先跟您請教一個最近發生的事情就是昨天您有參加這個世界警消運動會的壽旗典禮對不對是那當然就是每兩年就一次就是世界上非常對於警消單位來說非常重要的一個運動會那我也樂見其實昨天部長到壽旗典禮上面是親自把這個國旗授給代表團的團長那這個團長也是由我們警政署的副署長來代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7520.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7544.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那部長也提到說希望選手可以為國爭光來提高我國的能見度但是呢就有選手來反映說其實因為兩年前的這個代表團出訪的時候有選手他們帶了我國的國旗那前兩年的舉辦是在加拿大那結果呢他帶了國旗被我們警政署要求說要拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7545.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7552.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那這是兩年前發生的事情那今年是到了美國那目前我得知說我們代表團還是沒有帶國旗那我們代表團帶的是中華台北的這個奧會的會旗 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7560.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7570.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那我看到也覺得非常的遺憾我們授旗的時候拿的是國旗那其實過去包括2003年在第10屆2005年11屆2013年15屆2017年第17屆的時候我們在開幕式或者是閉幕式都有舉國旗但是在上一次卻被我們自己的警政署說我們去參加世界警校運動會的時候不要舉我國的國旗 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7588.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7601.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那我不知道說今年的代表團可不可以部長會支持我們的代表團出席的時候舉國旗嗎報告委員我們能夠參加世界錦囂運動會當然要按照世界錦囂運動會的各項的賽事規則那我們能夠提高我們的國旗能見度當然是盡我們的所能 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7609.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7630.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
而且大家都知道我們所參與的各項國際運動賽事最大的阻礙是在中國所以我們這次還是一樣按照以前的往例就是我們用奧會的會旗但是如果我們有在獎牌上面的頒獎典禮的時候舉國旗並不違法所以事實上我們是會旗跟國旗都有帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7631.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7641.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我想這個很多人可能比較不清楚因為沒有在新聞稿裡面呈現出來也就是說我們會用最大的彈性先來保障我們這些警消運動的選手大概有60位能夠在警消運動會裡面跟70國在將近1萬多位警消的人員互相做這個運動競技之外然後有增加我們的能見度我想所有參賽的選手以及帶團的這個副團長 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7656.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7673.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
她是第一位女性的這個副署長她也都了解這樣的程序所以我想我們一定不會以我們自己要矮化成績啦我們絕對不是以這樣為原則而是我們如何在國際上能夠有能見度第一然後來保障我們中華民國國旗能夠建出於國際媒體的報導那這個我們一定會盡力努力來達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7679.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7698.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好 謝謝部長在這邊的承諾跟提醒因為我也是希望說如果有機會在國際的場合多展現我們的國旗當然就要盡量的提高我國的能見度而不是自我審查 自我矮化不會 因為我們的制服 被章或者能夠看到的部分都會有國旗 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7699.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7718.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好那這就是尤其是今年是在美國舉辦那大家也知道說其實最近包括美國的移民局就也公告說如果出生國是台灣的話就直接寫台灣就好了不需要去加諸什麼中華或者是中國這樣子多餘甚至是不正確的字眼 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7718.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7739.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那這個也是美國像是美國最近的眾議院也提了一個美國支持台灣的法案裡面也都直接把中華台北相關的稱呼都取消掉都說應該要改成台灣那既然美國都是這樣子認定我們台灣就是可以直接寫作台灣何必去美國比賽的時候還自我審查多愛化呢報告委員世界行銷運動會不是只有美國一個國家參加它是一個國際性的賽事團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7744.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7758.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
所以我們按照國際性的賽事團體以往的這個規矩來處理那當然美國會給我們最大的協助就是我剛剛所說的如果我們中華民國的國旗可以在國際賽事的場合裡面呈現最大的能見度的話我們一定會想辦法達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7760.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7788.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
謝謝 謝謝部長的承諾那幫我下一頁我也反映一下因為這個剛剛其實部長也有提到說在團服還有一些代表團裡面的一些旗幟可能都可以出現國旗那這個也是裡面團員有跟我說其實在肩上的這個臂章其實都還是只有中華台北奧會的這樣的一個logo那我也覺得比較可惜如果之後可以的話有機會也盡量把我們國家的意向放上去好 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7790.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7807.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那这个就是2023年的时候发生的事情我也不希望这样的事情再重演好那最后还有一个是也是锦霄运动会就是因为其实今年属为了要实现我们上一次小英总统有说希望我们的选手出赛都可以是全公费的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7808.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7811.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那結果呢為了要達成這個全公費的目的反而把裡面的一些選項刪掉了一些比賽項目包括建立包括填進刪除掉那反而讓有一些選手沒有辦法因此而受惠甚至連這一次的出團比賽都沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7825.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7841.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那我覺得非常的可惜怎麼會有點本末倒置了呢當初小英總統在這個獸獎的時候表揚的時候的用意應該是鼓勵大家參賽不需要還要自費自價那當然是希望說最好是公費公價那 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7842.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7862.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
讓這些選手到國際上可以替台灣來爭光那沒有想到今年這個新制下去反而讓很多原本至少自費都還可以出席的選手連出席的機會都沒有了我希望這個部長可以回去了解這個警政署內部在選拔然後在提供這些比賽的運動項目的時候是不是有這樣的狀況如果有的話拜託下一次如果有機會盡量公平一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7869.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7889.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那我覺得他們是跟我說這次像消防署的心智就改得蠻好的讓大家雨露均沾公費都盡量能補助到那讓這些你看他們這一次60位裡面多數都是消防署派出來的選手那我覺得警政署可能還有改善的空間這個希望部長可以了解好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7890.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7893.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好謝謝委員好那最後一點時間因為今天其實要討論這個建築法那我也在這邊來表達一下我其實這幾年收到非常多的澄清案就是裝修蟑螂的事情那我們請署長來回應好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7905.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7914.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
因為這個署長可能應該也接收到很多的陳情案之前也都跟國土署有討論過那只是因為其實我知道說建築法裡面相關的規定也算完善可是建這個裝修蟑螂到現在還是非常的猖狂我不知道說署長這邊有沒有更好的方式可以解決包括說很多民眾他們在找這個相關裝修的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7929.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7932.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
工程行的資訊的時候到底是因為不夠透明或者是你們給的一些合格的名單不夠明確還是怎麼樣常常就是會有民眾疑似被詐騙就是他們找到一些跟你說很低價報價結果後面瘋狂的加價一開始跟你說工期很短結果他們給你收了九成的訂金之後就跑路了然後就把這個錢收了就留一個爛尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7955.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7963.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那像這樣的裝修的蟑螂甚至是說說他是詐騙也不為過可是到之後告上法院詐騙幾乎都不成立因為他們說他們有進場施工 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7965.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7975.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以這就是現在法律上的困難那現在的陳情案陳出不窮近十年來大概有一萬三千多件都是這樣子裝修裝壤同樣的樣態真的非常的可惡那我不知道說署長這邊目前有沒有比較好的方式或者是建議如果要修建主法應該要怎麼樣去防範呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7987.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8001.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
根本報告啦因為的確因為在室內裝修業來講他有他很明確的職業範圍那現在坊間比較大的一個狀況就是說當然因為這些有辦法而且我們也有合格的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8002.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8025.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
合格業者的名單其實網路上都有那當然一方面大概民眾比較不習慣說不知道說應該要去找合法的業者因為往往這些很多這種四莊蟑螂他這一些部分都是因為他沒有合格的名單他可能有些名氣或在地方上被認為是他裝修比較價格比較合理那比較會低價報 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8027.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8044.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但是他往往沒有經過合法的程序也沒有合法的設立公司才會有這樣一個財務的部分那所以這些都是實務上的問題他比較不容易透過相關的立法說我一定是怎麼做但是我想這一個部分第一個我們可能會把室內裝修業的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8046.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8066.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
執行的這個內容會在對外再說明清楚希望大家再透過合法的程序來申請這樣的一個程序第二個我們會來檢視看看在坊間有關的這一些契約內容是不是有違反一些這個疫苗消保的規定我想這一點也是很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8066.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8085.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
因為過去比較多的爭議就在於這一個沒有訂定契約或是契約的內容不明確那這些我想我們也來檢視看看看能不能對地方來講給消保單位給民眾一些比較具體的建議那這樣他在執行上比較有所依據也比較避免在沒有簽訂合理的契約狀況下就蒙受損失我想我們會從這兩點再來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8091.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8107.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
好 這個真的要拜託署長喔真的不要再有更多的因為裝修蟑螂導致更多的受害者這樣一次都是兩三百萬可能他一次的積蓄都花在這個被詐騙上面了真的非常的可憐好不好 這個真的要拜託好 謝謝署長好 謝謝黃婕委員報告委員會我們在徐玉珍委員質詢完後休息三分鐘下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8123.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8146.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
辛苦喔 有請署長吳署長有請委員好感謝署長這段時間常常為了高雄地方的建設有我們內政委員會安排考察署長都有到場來協助高雄的一些地方的建設尤其是我的選區左營跟南子的幾項大型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8147.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8165.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
包含新台17縣的跟工程會等等的協調也得到行政院的支持但今天我們所安排的是建築法跟平均地權我先表達對於建築法的第77條的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8166.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8185.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
的這些意見那其實高雄市在經過陳忠誠大火之後高雄市政府其實對於所有的這些老舊大樓在三天內對全市34棟以上30年沒有成立管委會的這些大樓都趕快進行了這些公安的稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8186.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8201.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那所以高雄市是已經經歷了這些那已經有做了這些包含協助成立管委會或者是負責人等等的這些工作那也經過這次大火之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8202.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8225.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
由高雄市政府做的這些安檢之後其實普遍超過30年以上大樓對於消防安檢以及要做這些相關改善的接受度頗高大家沒有什麼怨言但是我的選區裡面有一棟有一個社區就是國貿社區非常特殊它到今天它是1985年 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8227.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8240.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
新建到今天已經超過40年了那署長也到現場去看過現場就是可能那時候的瓷磚等等都會有一些脫落的現象但國貿大樓他國貿社區他其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8242.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8266.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不只有他的這個公共空間裡面還有一些私人產權的土地那他還有一個很嚴重的問題沒有辦法解決就是他沒有收管委會他是收清潔費每一戶150塊的清潔費所以其實國貿大樓要去改善國貿社區要去改善這些外牆脫落都有非常大的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8267.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8280.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那所以其實那天署長包含跟這個高雄市政府其實也對於這個我們都都跟都跟基金整件要有什麼樣的基準等等的都有提出一些建議跟看法啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8282.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8309.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
來檢視一下我們現在目前整個國土署我們對於老舊公寓大樓整建的補助規範我們把它做了一個檢討從2022年到2024年中央補助六都的案件其實雙北也沒有啦我就講四都就好了,桃園、台中、台南、高雄一共只有12件那我用這個比例來算一下四都如果是280萬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8313.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8332.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
6都一共519萬戶接受中央補助4都12件裡面一共只有778戶所以可以成功來申請的那個比例非常的低那我想這邊再跟署長再進一步的來探討為什麼比例那麼低你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8335.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8361.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
光看到第一項,大家就往後退看到第二項,又往後退三步看到第三項,那我不申請好了第一項是什麼,就是說有突出修繕工程這種老大樓,你看國貿,一堆人來拍照然後你就要討論他的鐵窗,再討論他冷氣外露不要了,都不要了,署長,拜託政府單位都不要過來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8362.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8367.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我要跟你申請外強補助你先跟我討論我這些老舊的這些過去的這些現況所以變成我們現在目前可以申請的會有意願來申請的也不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8379.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8401.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那所以在剛剛其實其他委員也有質詢裡面也有希望說我們在這個老化的房子要老屋延壽的這些那其實我們也希望老屋延壽的這個內容也可以把這種特殊案例的這種像國貿社區急需政府來協助這種案例也放進來署長有沒有這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8403.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8419.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
跟委員報告第一個當然委員所垂詢的這個所謂在一到三項裡面大概尤其是屬於這個違章的部分尤其是比如說鐵窗或這個冷氣突出物這些其實它是佔所謂的比重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8421.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8436.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
其實我理解因為我之前在台南市政府務的時候大概有遇到類似的問題那所以基本上來講現在實務上的做法是我們是用比例來算它不是一個比例都往下降嘛那我們也實際上看了我們這個補助的狀況實在是真的偏低所以再建議國土署這邊來做一個討論所以這個內容我想我們可以來檢討檢討這樣的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8447.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8466.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
那第二個就是說因為現在的這個老屋延壽的這個部分當時是因為覺得是事半的性質所以大致上會以無電梯公寓的大樓也就大概四到六樓先來事半那因為通常它在結構一律上來講它比較容易達成這個R值45以下的這樣一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8467.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8487.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那當然我想就事辦的過程如果是相對上來講成果比較好我想我們後續院裡面如果支持變成一個常態性的公務預算的話我們可以朝這個方向把他一起納進來對我希望其實不只是四到六樓的這些公寓那其實像這個國貿社區他已經超過40年 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8488.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8503.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
他未來一定也會是需要政府進去協助的一個社區啦我們希望提早來面對這個問題那也不要說讓他一直放在那邊沒有辦法解決那最後我想要針對新台17線最後的進度請部長新台17線 新台17線劉部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8512.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8539.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
謝謝部長在過去的努力劉立偉期間的努力那我們也跟內政部有申請到生活圈道路等等的這一些那在最後關頭那國防部出了一個大招就說他們需要臨時的這個戰備跑道啦那需要幫他代差代鑒幾個那最後由公共工程委員會那跟行政院來報報一個二十幾億的預算那也很感謝卓院長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8540.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8567.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
知道這一條路的重要性那也補足這先由行政院有協調好國防部先用基金來補足這個包含他們的戰備跑道包含他們的這些代差代件那所以新台17線第二期包含通道借售路這一段都可以開工了是謝謝委員的努力沒有我是接著部長繼續來做這個事情但是部長還是要拜託南段這一邊雖然 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8568.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8591.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我們的預算有被刪但是我們還是會努力的希望把南段的這個南門圓環相關需要的這些經費我當然希望高雄市政府再精簡一點讓內政部可以讓我們國土署可以把南段一併補齊可以在明年如期的完工是 我們來努力啦我想我們這個署長他都有追蹤這個進度那隨時會跟委員來報告好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8597.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8601.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
好謝謝李博弈委員下一位我們請徐宇貞委員質詢謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請徐議員好部長好我想先請教您就是近日內政部有依據促進轉型正義條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8625.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8648.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
公開表示各地方政府要檢視跟威權相關象徵的街道名稱像是中正路、經國路、介壽路也不排除全面更名但我要提醒一下部長這不是一聲令下換個名字就沒事它牽扯的是歲以萬計的門牌更換之患對於民眾來說他的身份證要換、健保卡要換 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8648.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8650.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
他的戶口名簿要換他的權狀房屋權狀土地權狀可能都要換牽扯的層面很廣那對公司來說呢對他的商業登記營業執照相關的各項的甚至有藥廠還告訴我說他們能要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8665.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8680.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
要的這個證照也都要換所以針對這個部分的話還有比如像地圖導航還有油霧這個系統的更新請問一下部長你目前掌握的全國各地名為中正路經國路的街道名稱總共有幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8684.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8710.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
報告委員現在目前跟中正接入項有關的311條那接受入的話是29條那經國接入項的話是9條總共349好這是在你們113年12月13號所的書面報告裡面提出的嘛那既然有349條那想請教部長就是說分別會影響多少戶籍地址營業登記跟建物的門牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8711.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8718.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
還有這項政策的實施範圍規模跟預估的成本到底要多少 請您具體說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8719.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8736.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
是謝謝許委員我們目前手上沒有掌握您所要的這些數據但是我們都知道其實程序正義在我們在處理轉型正義非常的重要所以我們才一再的對外強調就是中央政府跟地方政府呢要有顧慮到這兩個包括要法定任務上面來處理的話他需要有這個社會溝通的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8742.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8744.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
也就是說內政部針對這個部分並沒有先做相關的一個資訊的一個整理甚至預估可能所花的成本就開始先推動是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8757.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8778.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們是依法來推動的不是內政部無來的推動而且它是在2022年 對不起2022年的時候對不起我這邊不是2022還2223在我們的這個促轉條例的第11條之2裡面規範的那它要求的是內政部跟各級政府機關應該配合辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8780.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8795.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好 那應該配偶辦理我覺得對內政部來說你應該先要了解的是說你要求各級機關縣市政府需要做這樣的一個動作到底它會影響的層面是多廣它需要的成本是多少你才能夠要求縣市政府嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8795.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8798.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以為什麼現在縣市政府都一邊反彈就是因為我想部長你也講好沒關係如果不夠錢的話內政部來出最後你是說一案十萬請問一下一案十萬有沒有辦法做到這樣的事情報告委員我想這是太過簡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8812.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8815.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我們所謂的移案10萬塊錢是目前我們這個民政司能夠處理的部分譬如說某一個蔣中正的塑像要移到以前是可以移到桃園的這個大溪園區裡面那他移除的過程當中所需要的我們是10萬是指移銅像的10萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8830.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8840.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好那現在如果改入名呢改入名的部分的話我們在公務預算沒有辦法支出但是在我們的促轉條例您聽我說明促轉條例裡面它有提到我們在國發會裡面有個促轉基金也就是說在處理的過程當中如果需要有動用到基金預算的話那當然內政部會來協助地方政府來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8855.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8862.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以說表示錢不是問題是這樣的意思嗎我跟委員報告所謂的錢不是問題這樣太簡化就是在處理的過程當中如果需要動用到您剛所提的戶籍或是其他的路貫的產業戶籍的問題還有這個營業登記的問題建屋門牌的問題還有甚至個人比如說像現在你們沒有評估到的還有我個人的身分證我的健保卡我的所有的權狀地契全部都要更改 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8884.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8892.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
但是在我們的行政程序法上面在行政程序法上面就是說如果因為是公務機關他要變動您聽我說明他如果在變動的過程當中他可以雙兩種同時存在然後慢慢時間的遷移我大概有算了一下就是目前四都會影響38個行政區跟41萬人所以初估的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8911.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8924.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
大概就要九千多萬將近一億這還不包含民間的成本所以說這個部分我覺得為什麼會引起那麼大的反彈就是因為大家知道這件事情我們可以看一下你可以看一下最新的一個網路民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8926.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8930.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
好 這是到6月4號為止 就是顯示有7.8萬人的意見表達是什麼有86%的人是反對 覺得浪費公帑好 那你再看一下網友留言的意見就是說 政府不是在安眠錢嗎 話都給你講就好了還有 預算不是被砍了嗎 哪有錢改入名 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8949.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8953.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
真是說謊的爛政府然後再來就是說做這種事情浪費錢也毫無意義納稅人的血汗錢不是讓這個官員亂花的還有是不是吃飽太閒不是改路民就是罷免用的都是國家的錢好 你可以看到網友的心聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8967.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8970.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那也有縣市長也表達出不同意的看法然後直接在批評說這是誤視沙但是我也要強調因為促轉條例是在2017年的時候由立法院通過的那規範內政部就需要這樣處理那內政部的處理的步調不夠快不夠好 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8988.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8993.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那是另外一回事但是在價值的選擇已經依照我們自由民主憲政的處理方向如果不處理的話也是一個帶多的立場這個威權的象徵我給你一個建議其實最大的威權的象徵就是我們現在的總統府也就是以前日本的總督府 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9008.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9012.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以呢,我覺得你應該要建議我們賴清德總統,搬離總統府來去除這樣一個最大的殖民跟威權的象徵要做就要做大一點,不要柿子敲軟的吃,就是只是在這個欺負我們的民眾那另外,你還提到就是說我們這個經國路也要改,事實上我們都知道蔣經國先生他對於我們台灣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9032.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9046.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個貢獻喔不管是他在這個擔任總統行政院副院長跟這個經建會主委的時候主導的十大建設然後另外呢他在這個1986年的時候邀請張忠謀從美國回來擔任我們公研院的院長最後才創辦了台積電也就是才有現在的這個護國神山而蔣經國總統在晚年也開放報禁黨禁解除戒嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9058.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9086.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
開放台灣民主轉型所以他有這麼多的貢獻可是你們現在說因為這個轉型爭議因為威權的關係所以我們要改名事實上你有想過他這些對台的偉大貢獻到現在還大家都津津樂道那所以部長請問一下民進黨為了轉型爭議可以如此抹煞蔣經國對台灣的貢獻嗎那路民的存在是會影響選票還是衝擊選情不然為什麼要逼迫政府花大錢改路民 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9087.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9107.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
報告委員我剛有提到過這是大院所通過的一個促轉條例那我們是根據促轉條例裡面所提到的就是出現在公共建築或場所的紀念緬懷威權統治者的象徵因此移除跟改良我想這個條例大家都知道但是我覺得現在有更重要的事情要做比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9108.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9117.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
好 我們現在從這個詐騙來看好了那詐騙是內政部主管的吧是內政部警政署主管的吧不是 五個部會一起好 那內政部有五個部會一起我們的警政署在第一線處理那請問一下我們警政署是會打詐疑表板 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9123.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9138.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
是 我們沒有要對外隱瞞所以我們每次只要有報案就會報上去我們看一下今年1到5月國人累積被詐騙的金額超過391億元所以我們現在看到行政院當初高喊要打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9138.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9153.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
不是通報率的提高破案率的上升而是詐騙金額屢創新高而且就在這個時候我們看到內政部都拐殺的但是金額跟人數也在下降當中謝謝立法院通過防詐的四個條例金額跟人數沒有下降喔是一直在上升喔沒有可是我們詐騙的這個問題其實都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9156.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9158.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們應該繼續努力,謝謝他是外交替代役,所以是屬於內政部嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9177.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9206.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
他替代役的藝男但是外交替代役當時他是在外交部的管理是誰要管理都是由目的事業主管機關申請的目的事業主管機關內政部的問題是嗎我們會一起負責對那你們要一起負責嘛是所以謝謝您的指教這是我們應該討論的也可以需要檢討的空間對那請問一下當時他的內控跟背景審查是怎麼做的報告委員我們在做書面審查的時候他不會提出說他要犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9207.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9221.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
所以他書面審查的時候他是台大的高材生當時沒有任何的犯罪的紀錄當他可以做到30億金額的這個毒品交易表示是很長的一段時間虛擬世界的犯罪裡面確實非常難那我們也是台灣跟美國共同來處理這件犯罪的事實我們不能什麼都推給虛擬世界我們不能什麼都推給這可能是境外犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9231.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9233.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我覺得我們內部部門我們必須要好好的來去檢討相關的不管詐騙還是藝人管理的問題我們會來檢討會來改進對 但是什麼時候呢大概需要多久的時間報告委員詐騙的部分大概有人類以來都會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9247.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9267.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那但是他需要我們很大的努力我們在尤其警政署在試毒方面的其實是盡了最大的努力包括推出打炸儀錶板所以現在包括我們的很多刑事行政警察幾乎都投入那我們從歷年來從這個法案通過我們現在有做了一些的這個改善我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9267.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9283.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
但是呢詐騙金額還是一直不斷的提高表示一定有某些地方我們還沒有做好是 因為目前統計出來大概還有一些資本還沒有完全公告要麻煩部長要好好的來去針對這部分管詐騙或硬爛的管理喔當然我想為什麼今天會跟部長講這個最後要與眾欣賞的跟部長講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9287.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9302.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
如果連保護百姓人身安全都做不好的話還來談什麼人權轉型是不是應該先把治安做好我們再來談一下轉型正義報告委員轉型正義它本來就是24小時就處理的人權的問題而且轉型正義是一種教體的選擇轉型正義絕對不是說今天做明天就不做我想不要讓民眾感覺怎麼整天做這些吃飽沒事幹的工作而真正該做的大片的工作防治的工作而沒有做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9317.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9321.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這不是大部分民眾的想法,我是依法來處理有關轉型正義應該處理的事項,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9360.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9360.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個 這個是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9615.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9617.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 我們請牛許廷委員謝主席吳署長有請請吳主帥吳委員好 署長早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9632.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9651.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
這我們去提平均地權條例第25條的這個修正那當然原因是這樣嘛就是說為了達到地淨其利這樣子的一個宗旨其實都有規定就是說促進公益的土地其實應該是可以減免地價稅的那行政院可以根據平均地權條例或者土地稅法再去制定土地稅的這樣一個相關的減免規則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9654.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9678.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
現在現行的狀況是基本上給予無償公眾通行的道路就可以免徵地價稅但是公眾通行的法定空地則予以排除我們今天去談這個問題的原因是這樣地價稅基本上來講是針對土地它可以帶來的收益跟量能來進行課稅可是這個土地如果因為客觀上的法令限制而使 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9679.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9706.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
其喪失喔 叫做使用財產之獲益的可能性時那基本上課徵財產稅的這樣子的一個正當性其實就應該消失嘛所以他當然應該要有所謂的適當之減免嘛那現在關鍵就是說不管他的名義是什麼基本上他只要有無償公公眾通行這樣子的一個這樣子的一個現況基本上他就是不公特定人使用而且具無償性其實就已經達成所謂的遞進其利嘛既然他達成所謂遞進其利的概念你再來再去課稅他其實就開始會有為 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9707.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9734.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我認為有違租稅公平的原則所以我們提這案子是希望在這討論的過程中我們如何來達成更細緻的一個規定所以接下來我們就討論一下這個相關的部分要來怎麼樣來做設定現在的狀況是這樣啦無償公眾通行的道路用地經查明屬實者使用期間內地價稅或填付全免嘛對不對但其建造房屋應保留之法定空地部分不予免徵對不對那比如說7樓走廊 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9735.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9755.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
他其實就免徵那如果蓋建築蓋比較高就是變成部分減徵嘛就有一些這樣子的一個這樣子的一個機制的一個設定嘛那我想先跟國土署這邊來做一下討論然後我待會跟財政部做一下討論就是說如果我們現在要讓他符合一次性跟公平性的話除了修法你能講修法因為我看到你們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9757.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9776.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
書面報告講說修法不建議修法那如果不建議修法用什麼樣的方式來解決這樣的一個問題也就是說這個開放空間或者是道路用供公眾通行的道路你可以免徵地價稅但是法定空地你同樣供公眾通行卻不能免地價稅這同樣的概念卻不同待遇的這個狀況要怎麼樣來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9781.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9809.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
跟委員報告啦因為其實就法控也好開放空間也好在就整個建築來講它其實有相對的一個權利也有相對的義務所謂的權利它因為流射了這一個法控或開放空間它相對應會得到一些獎勵所以就法律的對等關係來講它是本來就有對等的關係存在所以就一般來講它不存在額外的 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9810.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9831.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所謂的這一個值得去減稅的這樣的一個平等原則我想站在一個平等原則是這樣的概念但是在土地減免規則裡 地價稅減免規則裡面也有提到在有關具有公益性的這些項目的時候地方政府其實是可以就實務上去認定 譬如說有一些因應一些重大的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9832.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9847.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
他有一些就同意依停車場法來設置停車場的這個部分那這個部分他也可以認定是具有公義性那這個都符合在規則裡面那所以我們是不建議說在母法去訂而是讓地方政府依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9848.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9871.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
具有實質上的公益性的項目,他去訂定相關,再依據這個地價稅減免規則,還有評定條例的規定,他去個別去訂定這樣的一個項目,去讓他在實務上更容易達成啦。好,你講了兩個重點嘛,第一個就是說,法定空地你有另外的獎勵措施或什麼的,但是我們今天談的重點,倒不是說法定空地,因為你空地你有獎勵措施,那是一回事。 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9872.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9901.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
但是空地在單純不被公眾使用的情況之下現在的狀況是法定空地且它有給公眾使用的狀況要不要有另外的稅務減免我覺得這個問題的層次是這樣好 但你第二個重點這本席是非常了解就是說有沒有用什麼樣技術性的方式可以讓它轉用比如說工藝性性質更明顯而不是用無法一概為之的方式來做處理那具體來講有沒有什麼樣比如說法條上的建議的措施啊或者是你行政機關願意基於說我改善這樣一個公平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9902.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9905.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我來做什麼樣的一個政策的調整你們有沒有具體的做法或者是相關的規劃這個看你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9909.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9933.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那個從憲法法庭的解釋是認為說那個法定空地雖然沒有使用上面的利益不過它還是有建築上面的利益所以在減免規則裡面是把它用單數來排除免稅規定那委員剛剛也提到公益的那個目的的部分有沒有辦法在相關的減免規則來處理因為那個稅間實務上面都是有財政部這邊來做一個認定那我們是建議由副稅屬這邊來跟委員做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9935.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9958.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好 這個我希望第一個內政部作為建築等等的這樣一個主管機關你可以先去稍微想一下也就是說如果這個法定空地不管它是私設道路法定空地或者是開放空間這些概念它只要有符合讓公眾使用有一定的公義性其實它就應該要被更公平的對待其實就是這樣剛剛有張宏祿委員講比如說101對不對101的開放空間它房屋稅是可以減徵的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9959.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9969.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以這跟你到底是大是小其實是沒有什麼絕對關係的嘛因為你關鍵是你空出來這些土地有沒有給公眾使用嘛有沒有符合公益性的一個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9971.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9996.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
說明一下喔 剛剛其實像101那個它是沒有檢證因為大部分的法控都會依附在我們香港所謂的不是 我不是講法控他講它有沒有一部分是屬於開放空間其實也是有嘛 對不對開放空間就更明確因為跟委員報告因為開放空間它一定在當時的都市計畫或細則或都市設計的準則裡面有訂定因為我給你這一個叫做開放空間它必須公眾通行你才能獲得這個權利嘛對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9998.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10023.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以你有相對在法律上 相對的權利與關係我的意思是講 不管怎麼樣因為張榮國委員剛剛也講 他不是只是 他不是用個案去看嘛而是公平原則的問題嘛所以我今天講 我們把概念放寬一點你只要可以完成公平的原則讓這些具有公義性使用的部分他可以得到合理的待遇 或者也許是稅務的減徵 或者是別的方式這我覺得可以花一點時間討論 給你去做思考 好 這第一個 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10023.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10028.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那現在剛剛我們市長也講我們要請複稅組我們來談論一下稅損相關的一些問題財政部這邊我是比較不滿意你的報告裡面寫說如果這樣子一修達到的稅損會有好幾百億對不對你的好幾百億的算法是怎麼算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10040.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10067.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
跟委員報告因為我們只是用照都市計畫法那個台灣省市集計的32條規定是用住宅區間別率不能超過60%所以我們用40來做所以就是說排除可以蓋房子的間別率所以你就是把所有的法定空地都算嘛對不對那你現在財政部有沒有掌握這些法定空地因為我們按照法條修正的邏輯應該是你要供公眾通行使用嘛那實際上這個數字是多少有哪些部分是供公眾通行使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10069.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10079.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
沒有辦法做這個切割只是用一個推估的方法對嘛即使你用最低的10%好了也將近佔了30億那這個30億的話它畢竟還是有稅損在那既然有稅損在任何一個修法都要去彌補財源到底是從什麼地方來還要做稅制支柱的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10087.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10102.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
你不管怎麼樣你總要先算清楚嘛因為你用三百億跟三十億還是差很多這就沒有辦法去做一個分割沒有辦法做區分所以沒有關係嘛我們今天可以我講今天開這個題目大家來做討論然後包含細節上的一些設定給你時間去做更精細的設算 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10103.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10122.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
這個我認為都是要處理的你才能更但你不能拿概算然後去推定說稅準是這樣然後你講不要修法我覺得這樣跳太快啦我覺得這樣跳太快我同意你前面講因為這是地方稅嘛所以地方政府意見也許蠻重要的大家多開幾次會商量一下這本席完全接受但我的意思是講你不能用一個很寬的東西把人家嚇退了造成變成說沒有實質討論這我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10123.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10151.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
對 提案委員來講不太公平去稍微了解一下到底這些法控到底是它就是空地還是說它真的有一部分的使用或者是有哪些剛剛吳署長講的有一定公義性的一些做法其實我都希望政府在這個過程中去做清楚的設算我覺得這才是我們在這次修法裡面想要看到的東西然後基於這一些的道理大家去想說法條是用修法的方式修改行政命令的方式推動專案政策的方式其實都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10151.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10158.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
但是他只要能往這裡前進一步我想就符合公平的原則好不好可以跟委員讓我再多講兩句話因為根據我們那個112年憲判是其實他沒有違反平等原則因為法控他本來就有建築歷代他跟特別犧牲的一些市社道路公共通行是不一樣的所以憲法法令已經跟我們講了沒有違反平等原則所以他不是有特他沒有特別犧牲在這個理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10177.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10192.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
他只是在最後面有特別強調說可能民眾會多提供出超過他應該要提供的法定控例他覺得這個部分要去做一個考量那這考量剛剛在委員在質詢的時候我有跟委員報告過那這個就要由民眾來提出申請如果能夠分割得出來那當然就可以減免嘛就是要看民眾要提出申請因為民眾申請的話又有別的考量在所以民眾也不見得會提出這樣子的申請跟委員做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10203.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10233.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以其實即便在憲法對他大的方向上他本來就是可否嘛你可以這樣做也可以不這樣做對不對都不會違背憲法的精神對不對我看他憲法的解釋意思是這樣嘛對不對你不去這樣做的時候也沒有關係但你如果可以更細緻的話去做他其實更公平因為你剛剛也講對不對民眾如果有需要可以特案來做申請或檢免我今天討論了其實就是你如果是個優化這樣的機制可以讓這個事情有具體的前進我認為也很好啊好不好所以今天最後不要花太多時間國土署署長還有我們財政部這邊你們大概需要多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10235.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10252.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
來做討論要問到各個22個地方政府可以要你時間 因為他們地又那麼多還要去做產業 可能要有一定時間那一定時間是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10255.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10265.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
這個要三個月三個月好不好沒關係我覺得OK因為我覺得這知識體大嘛那就三個月的部分請財政部做相對精準的設算國土署那我們也三個月好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10268.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10287.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那個部分的話我們在因為還是財政部我們在跟財政部來討論一下你們一起確認國土署、地政司、財政部我們就一起做個確認然後一起做個也許做個延殺我贊成國土署這樣講如果可以用公益性的方式來做專案性的思考我覺得也很好就把這個東西設計出來那也許這個修法它就有它的意義在好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10287.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10303.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那另外既然都要花點時間建築法我剛剛其實看很多內容國土署這邊你剛剛有講說需要有些地方需要跟地方政府在做溝通嘛對不對那這一部分有關建築法的部分因為我們今天兩個條例嘛一個是平均地權條例我們剛剛講上個月之後再說建築法的部分這個你需要多少時間在做細緻溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10305.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10326.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
呃 市長也給我們三個月 因為有很多是罰款的 罰單的問題喔 的確地方政府之前的表達就是大案子小案子 差距太大我 我 組長 這個你就 這個平均地的兩頁只有本席提案 所以我給你三個月我就決定了可是建築法很多委員提案啦 我是覺得三個月好像太久啦這個要不要短一點我還是建議 因為喔 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10327.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10339.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
案件太多了就尤其像涉及到罰款的部分我們大概有提到嘛大小案件的這個金額實在是差距太大那所以我們還是需要跟地方做一些溝通啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10340.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10361.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
你還是要跟你講 但我是覺得三個月太短 那個啦 太久了啦這樣子好了啦 我給你一個月的時間先做初步的研商 然後一個月之後我會來你再來跟本席聊 因為我要排案嘛所以我現在召委 我可能要排案我到底要不要讓他進到實質的討論沒有 我要讓他是有效率的方式來處理我說在政府那個除外啦 就評定條例那個除外那個三個月我們已經講好了嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10361.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10377.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
但建築法的部分我希望會快一點因為提案委員比較多我們大概會把更好的案子的延商結果就初步的延商的建議大概會再跟委員一個月之內要有初步延商建議好不好我們再來做後續排案這個節奏的參考可以嗎好謝謝謝謝牛許廷召委接下來請吳啟明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10390.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10397.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好 主席 議會同仁 請我們國土署署長讓部長休息一下吳市長有請委員好好 署長市長今天我們大家在討論建築法的修正草案其實我們現在大家關心的就是整個建築結構的安全性 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10414.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10430.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
尤其我們台灣是在我們的地層帶上面所以我們光是本市在這邊的資料我們的全國有500戶的超過30年那超過30年在新北市遇到 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10432.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10457.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
前幾天海沙屋的問題包含三重海沙屋天花板都掉下來還傷了小朋友所以說我們針對海沙屋來做討論海沙屋為什麼要整個整棟的海沙屋要重建會那麼慢速度搭配合度也不是那麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10458.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10481.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
因為問題出在哪裡,就是我們要找出這個問題其實海沙湖的問題要怎麼解決,很多它大地下已經都枯了但是你枯,你說,說大家要參加整個都建也好,整個重建也好其實他們都樂意,但是問題出在說,他們在這段期間要怎麼來解決,他們大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10487.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10516.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
所以他們大的問題,現在我們的中央政府在大力的推動我們的社宅我們社宅,是不是說在它那個附近,我們社宅第一件好了是不是說他們在海沙屋要怎麼讓他們可以在他們的條件可以放寬畢竟他們去好,他們就搬回來了嘛所以這樣才可以去改觀說,他們要整個來參加整個都更也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10517.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10532.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
整個推動的速度我認為這樣才可以先去改觀他們大問題對於它的容積要怎麼提升因為海沙屋在前果都有光是我們整個港三重那些媒體在報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10533.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10547.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
包含在本市的轄區土層會被移動是海沙屋所以說海沙屋大家面臨著說要搬 要參與都更搭住的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10548.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10572.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
然後你農機要怎樣來提升讓他們不用再去負擔那麼龐大的金額這是這裡可以改觀啦不然你說政府要推動他說全國我們真的都更的速度還是非常的慢啦所以市長你要先提供這個問題我們要怎麼改觀請新北市請全國各縣市大家來開會就是要共同討論讓大家請出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10576.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10583.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
可以謹慎說 他們住在那裡 他們的負擔的問題 他們住在的問題我們要去想辦法來替他們解套 這才有辦法來推動好像沒辦法替他們解套 當然啊 你說一棟裡面不是說每個人想法都一樣啊 起碼都有幾個他們不同意不同意的問題在哪裡 是不是說這個部分是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10602.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10621.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
感謝委員 其實這個都更的過程中 所謂的中紀有的這個概念在過去都有提出 但是跟社宅搭配是一個不錯的理念但是重點的處理說 它是最終的時間點很難搭配在一起 與我們社宅一組是組三檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10622.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10629.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以你回到你決定當時要貼的時候,當時的租金不一定有大量可以出租的社債,社債也不可能放在那裡等待所以這是事務上一個比較大的問題,所以說我們剛才是一個中間的規定,當時它可以搬出來,要搬出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10643.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10650.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
這時間點跟社宅在出租的時間點,往往是對不起來的,我們不可能把社宅調過去空起來放在那裡都沒有租,我們來做,我想這十五項,這都不經過跟地方,這十五項比較有一個困難,第二點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10661.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10683.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個租金的成本就是我處理,我沒有大小財,我處理多好租租金的成本,我們在這個都更的成本裡面就已經有納入了本來就已經同意這次有納入,它是成本那所以在這個成本上,一般來講可以省一天啦對於這個健康來講,這應該就要省一天所以這是,當然過去的情形就是說經常去說就是,我差不多安省這個工廠是適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10691.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10699.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
結果我實際在操作的時候,有可能拖過,還要再延伸一些情緒,同時簽的是簽4年而已,4年過你要自己負擔,所以這是一個開始需要檢討的,第三就是海鯊魚的容積本來就不錯, |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10708.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10731.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
它本來我們的獎勵就是直接圓融1.3我就直接給你啦都不用再去檢查做什麼所以就現實來講的話海沙屋現在在過程中協調是中的過程中最困難的原因就是說很多海沙屋它不是整棟都海沙屋因為大家都知道你如果對我這個家裡如果海沙屋我的天房如果是海沙屋的時候那些綠光綠光給你有沒有那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10733.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10753.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
但是不是整棟都這樣,最怕有的沒中,有的中,有的沒中,他們的心態是比較不公平所以這也是我們過去是不太適合,最困難的就是兩個住戶的心情感受不公平所以對於都更的急迫性有時候是不太一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10754.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10775.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
所以這地方政府在協調規定是比較辛苦但是通過這個簡化的過程針對海沙屋我們現在已經做得很放寬因為申請元榮1.3它是直接就通過了所以我們要讓委員了解這個規定因為我們收到的就是因為不是全面性的海沙屋就是一萬戶一萬戶我們做很多沒中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10779.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10793.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
他們的意願都不高,所以說整個都要推動,都是有困難本身土生,土生在我們海山捷運站出來也有一棟海砂屋,也是一樣一樣面臨這個問題但是這個問題你總是要來想辦法來改觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10797.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10808.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
所以說 現在我們的老舊房子 全國五百戶 新北就佔了一百五十戶五百萬跟一百五十萬對 一百五十萬戶 因為過去工藝性的一種的結果體 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10817.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10837.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
絕對跟大樓絕對不一樣你如果說地震來這種的我們的工藝性的這種的房子是非常非常所以說你剛才說速度要快你說修繕的三年再編了我們去年又編了五十億但是修繕的 修繕對海沙屋比較沒辦法對啊 結構就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10839.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10854.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他們幫助不大啦 這是一整棵啊所以我們要怎麼推動這個速度會比較快未來第一天我們可以檢討這個損失這是應該我們地方政府要來檢討的不然你說如果事情再發生的時候再來檢討這樣已經太晚了是 這我們會再來找地方政府電機開好的時候再來研究看他們針對這個海沙烏的這個看還有什麼新的建議可以來加速啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10867.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10872.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這部分我們繼續來探討因為你過去的地方你沒有去設定說海鯊魚還是說麵糧要減肥的要切除的在這個條件我們是不是把它納入進去讓它未來再多重選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10887.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10899.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我瞭解 我可能就是未來看電影政府來建議啦 就是說有一些招租的條件裡面啦不過重點就是我們兩個的時間要對得到啦時間要對得到也是我的主意瞭解 這我們來看電影政府再來討論一下好 謝謝好 謝謝吳清明委員報告委員會 我們現在處理臨時提案請宣布 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10918.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10945.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
有鉴于过去原乡地区土地新与建筑相关法规规划与执行方式过于粗糙与武断致使当地族人之居住安全与空间使用权益长期受损期需改善建筑法第99条之一虽明定都市计划以外地区或偏远地区建筑物得予简化管理并授权地方政府拟定简化管理办法报请内政部核定为实务上部分现实气味定定办法或仅形式应对难以实质回应原乡实际需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10945.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10974.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
为加速解决原乡长期以来的居住问题原请贵部于一个月内研议办理下列事项必力全面提升地方政府简化制度规划与执行效能以紧速定定通案性指导原则协助并督促各县市依法定定简化管理办法并提供必要之技术指导而整理现行各地建筑简化办法内容进行汇整对照作为地方参照依据亦可具以弹性因应原乡特殊情况提案人为高金素梅等八人宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10978.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10983.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
請問委員會對於臨時提案的內容有異議沒有我們照案通過 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11000.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11017.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
對啦,我想委員不會反對啦,因為好多部會啦,所以內政部不要寫貴部那再來就是縣市要寫縣市政府,這樣比較明點,沒有其他的問題,因為文字已經修正,委員看過了好,我們把這個第三段嘛對不對OK |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11026.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11026.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
這四個地方嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11054.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11078.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好說明一下這第二段第三行部分縣市我把它加兩個字叫改成部分縣市政府第三段第一行貴部改成內政部第三段第三行這個後面督促各縣市加一樣加縣市政府然後第三段倒數第二行一樣作為地方政府參照依據為以上文字修正請問委員會有沒有問題好我們就照文字照修正通過謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11081.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11091.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
好 報告委員會我們繼續進行詢問下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢主席 各位委員有請署長吳署長有請委員好署長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11111.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11139.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這個建築法第99條之一的條文是在73年民國73年11月7號就公布施行後來是因應配合精神在89年12月20號修正配合精神把這個省政府改為由縣政府擬定報請列正不核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11139.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11161.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
就是說實施都市計劃以外地區或偏遠地區建築物資管理得以簡化不是用本法前部或一部之規定其建築管理辦法得由縣政府擬定報請列政部核定制請問一下這個剛才講了這個已經70幾年73年到現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11169.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11196.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
如果我們從89年到現在也很久了這個目前地方政府有哪些有訂這些這個辦法針對都市計劃以外第7號偏遠的第7號尤其是針對偏遠第7號就是他如果已經有確定做訂出相關的辦法的話是有6個那其他的都是屬於零星的這個修訂所以哪6個縣政府我現在詳細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11198.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11210.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我知道花蓮、新竹、台中我印象至少這三個是我目前台灣確定這三個是有那另外詳細的苗栗也有苗栗也有苗栗對台東呢台東有 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11227.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11254.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
嘉義花蓮屏東呢屏東是屏東沒有屏東他是個別他不是訂整套的什麼叫個別就是他只是自己在審查在那個自治條例裡面自己有加幾條這樣而已他不是單獨訂不是單獨訂對對對那有這個自治條例裡面他就可以跟其他地方政府已經訂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11255.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11274.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
他的那個落差差距差距還蠻大像我們知道是新竹台中算是訂的比較完整他有針對各種樣態去訂那其他的都可能就是有問題他再放沒有出現過問題他就沒有再放 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11275.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11297.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以這個部分,當然今天有修正條文的提案,你們初步的意見是不希望做出我們是希望把好的這些案例,他們地方有自己訂出來的我們提供給所有的縣市,然後請他們依據這樣的一個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11298.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11327.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那各自因為也有一些因地制宜性像原住民地區有些是在山區那有些是在海邊那其實他要適用的內容其實就不太一樣那所以我們是希望他能夠我們都把比較完整的東西拿出來那希望各縣市政府來參照這樣的方式來訂那再依據自己的需要自己去取決這樣事實上是這樣這個你知道我等一下也會繼續談過去一直還沒有完成的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11330.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11348.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
確實有需要啦只不過是因為這個地方政府有時候沒有去考慮到這個實際的問題然後有這樣的一個法律的授權然後他並沒有做很好的一個處理所以要請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11350.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11378.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
當然我們未來這個條文還會再討論應該要怎麼去修正才會是最好的部分所以這個部分在這段時間剛才有這個也有提到這個一個月也能夠做把這樣的一個資料各縣市政府目前已經訂了他的這個有什麼樣的相同的或是不同的能夠做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11379.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11406.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
給我們做審查這個條文的時候的一個參考好 可以嗎我們當然是希望透過授權啦因為授權地方的因地質疑性會比較好那所以我們現在大原則上是說我們盡可能是鼓勵地方政府有完整的東西去談那至於母法上我們還是保持它原來的談心就可以對 我們在因為畢竟要審查嘛所以我們也要希望需要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11407.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11429.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
目前已經有定的縣市政府他的條文然後的差異如何好不好做一個做一個整理好好好另外就是也提了很多次了這個當然你等一下會說因為國土計劃法又延長了但是還是要去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11434.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11455.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
鹽鄉鹽鄉這些部落這些土地然後竟然不能蓋房子而這個都會區的山坡地在都會區啊基隆啊新北啊這些都會區的山坡地比我們在鹽鄉部落的還陡他們竟然可以蓋大樓我們連蓋這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11459.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11486.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
一般的建築都不行了都會他是因為他是林業用地或是其他的用地這個部分畢竟還是要去解決而且解決的方式我們共同的去思考怎麼樣原住民的部落先行在國土計劃法裡面怎麼樣有沒有可能解釋的空間如果沒有解釋空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11487.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11500.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那怎么样去修这家一条的条纹呢还是怎么样去先解决啊好不容易这个言明会跟内政部都已经有一个很好的一个方向吗啊对不对啊好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11502.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11524.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
也跟委員報告啦,就是我們其實還在持續的精進那一個內容啦就是在圖館的部分還在持續精進,那具體的做法我們會持續精進我們希望是說到時候推出來是一個更完整的東西當然包含最近如果說按照這一個在偏遠地區的這樣的一個這個地方的辦法如果出來,我想我們也會內部再跟國土組這邊去討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11528.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11536.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
就看看這有沒有可以參考的一個依據那併同圖館 兩個都一起來檢討看看這我們可以再來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢下一位我們請顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在好 最後我們請徐欣怡委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11565.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11568.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長我們在討論建築法之前我想本席也要跟您討論一下 就是有關最近您 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11584.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11610.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
引起的這個中正路改名的爭議如果我沒有聽錯的話前面好像有些委員在質詢的時候那您這個中正路的改名好像是說是依據轉型正義條例是不是是清除威權象徵是法定義務在我們的促進轉型正義條例的第五條跟第十一條之二裡面有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11611.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11634.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
对是依据这个嘛是对所以我们了解这个很多事情您是有所依据的那但是如果您说这个是法定义务这个是法定义务它是这个条例有规定跟法定义务好像不完全等号吧没有报告委员它是法定义务在11条之2里面11条之2 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11636.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11660.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是他寫得非常清楚他就直接點名在促展會結束他的部分的這個階段性任務之後那有關於跟地方制度相關的包括道路的這個命名等等的就是由內政部來負責對啊內政部負責但是是有法律有規範跟他是法定義務不一樣吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11661.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11689.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以它不見得是法定義務因為我跟你講如果是法定義務的話我請問你這個法定任務對是任務不是義務任務跟義務真的不一樣好所以是法定義務那任務所以那本席就要來繼續往下就是說那既然它是一個任務所以您要來做其實法律有規定我們也支持也應該要這樣做謝謝委員但是你要做的這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11690.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11707.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
你有先去了解這個做下去你怎麼樣完善嗎還是你引起這個整個人民的生活包含地方政府的這個大混亂你有去了解嗎報告委員我想是這樣子第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11709.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11729.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
促轉條例在十一條之二通過的時候已經是目前為止應該是兩年前跟三年前的事情所以當時這樣規範下來的話那內政部呢已經先做了一部分的處理這個一部分的處理就是我們在以前有報告他整一個的這個數據裡面提供參考就是說比較簡易的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11735.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11759.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
數項 標項或者是這個部分能夠移除的就先移除那我所了解移除最多的很多人都是把數項移到桃園大溪你現在在執行的路名那路的部分呢在我們委託南台科技大學裡面他有提到這是第四個模式那第四個模式裡面呢剛剛我有跟部分委員報告過目前為止我們統計出來大概會有300多件好 沒關係我現在要了解的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11760.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11777.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
他執行就是我們要做一件事所有不管是地方政府中央政府我們大概都會預判嘛你怎麼做才會完善而且你很多東西你要預估你怎麼樣這樣下去不是突然間造成很大的混亂又達不成嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11777.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11797.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
是 我了解委員的用意 所以我有提到到目前為止 有在進行更改入名的 您知道有沒有成功的案例凱達格蘭大道對 只有凱達格蘭大道 我們大家知道 因為它牽扯著住戶啊 還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11798.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11813.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
有用到凱達格蘭大道的身份證或人民生活太少了嘛凱達格蘭大道真的我這點本席也就本席的了解也是他最成功那現在你要求各縣市政府去進行有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11815.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11833.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
報告委員我們不敢要求我特別提到說中央政府要跟地方政府要溝通那你是由上而上還是由上而下按照地方制度法是由下而上對嘛由下而上那一定是地方有共識他才會做嘛是不是那現在如果地方沒共識你會硬推嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11834.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11849.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我沒有第一個我第一個沒有法則然後第二個我剛剛有提到轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義社會溝通那我剛剛有特別提到說如果造成對立就表示說我們的溝通不是很完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11850.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11866.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
對 或者是實施的不完整才會造成一些實施要看各地方政府因為很多地方政府他們的街道改名的機制有他們的自治準則一定要溝通完整嘛社會有共識而且由下而上目前有 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11867.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11892.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
任何一个区域有符合这样的情况吗我刚刚有跟委员报告过你说台南是吗现在我知道的台南那其实更早台南OK那就这样台南嘛你答案就是台南嘛是那更早以前在台南实施的情况你有了解吗台南实施下去台南的部分的话他们也是天怒人怨而且好像做到现在做在2022年开始做到现在 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11892.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11912.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
他做了170公尺之後他就很難往下黃偉哲市長他特別說接下來他要以衝擊最小爭議最少的區域來優先逐步推動不求一次到位他是希望達成這個目標但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11913.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11936.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
他也發現說不容易而且現在整個的戶政還有整個的地圖系統各方面整個混亂啦民眾生活整個被受不受影響我們還沒有改怎麼會有混亂呢有心要推動那慢慢來推動然後有共識這是我們基本的想法所以我剛剛有特別提到你程序正義上一定要合法合規那轉型正義條例已經有 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11938.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11940.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
你絕對不會強制社會溝通不要產生政黨之間的對立現在就是不要造成民怨還有民眾的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11954.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11978.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡第一個轉型正義條例已經是2017年從第八第九屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論而且他已經是成案我現在講的是執行面執行面所以現在你入民更改難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11980.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12006.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我沒有問你我只是你心裡想一下所以我不用回答對這個影響到人民生活非常多那已經有實施的台南市他都發現哇不行緩下來那所以我還是認同但是他沒有停止啊他是緩步推動緩步推動能夠有社會共識所以我非常了解所以你認同嘛對台南市我還沒有請你回答所以我才說我們是協助地方政府我沒有說一步到位啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12007.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12030.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以我們現在是在討論所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識然後才能進行但是如果強推的結果就是造成台南他自己有感受到真的不好推更重要我要講的是我們做任何事你的各方面的完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12031.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12053.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
那包含剛剛也很多人提到我想你的經費你大概也要預估一下我的時間的關係我就不跟你再往下你經費如果你真的全國要推你的經費有沒有到位你自己要去這個衡量再來就是報告委員他是用基金預算你那個基金對我有看一下你知道你那個基金現在有多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12054.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12071.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
你知道嗎基金預算不是說有多少錢基金預算就是說你本與你的任務需求在申請的時候基金就有這個一個他的一個審查文會然後他會在編列的時候把它放進去你是不是用促轉基金是那是國發會國發會主管的對促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12072.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12088.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那是國發會的不是說有多少錢不是他不是用他不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行你基金需要多少錢他會再撥進去跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的就本席了解他那個基金好像是從好像國民黨那個黨產弄過來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12090.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12113.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
妳確定是撥補的嗎在促短條例裡面是這樣的沒有錯而且我所了解是有經費但是經費有多少我還需要細查報尾所以那這樣好了 會後請你提供你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告說總共全國如果要改中正路有多少條然後那你估一下要多少錢 你會後 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12114.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12132.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
孤兒一下要多少錢 全國整個下去要多少錢你再提供給我們我相信你現在說不出來 要多少錢因為這是要地方政府報上來不是由我們去幫他預估因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾那以前的台中市在處理台灣大道的時候他們所用的經費是幾百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12134.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12161.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
好現在如果說中正路要改名我問你那台北市中正區還有像那個中正國小中正大學中正高中甚至如果說經國路也要改的話經國管理學院我們中正一分局甚至經國號戰機是不是要改所以除了好像不只內政部那這樣教育部國防部這個都要改吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12162.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12164.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
是不是都要進行改名 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12165.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12193.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
是 但是我現在在內政部所以我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務我來處理了所以最後針對這個部分我想我一個結論就是說希望內政部不要不管食物報告委內政部的事情真的是非常的多而雜不是完全噁心殺或者吃飽沒事幹的中正堂改名你應該沒有社會共識吧你應該就是下命令吧中正堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12197.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12226.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
中正堂改名哪裏的中正堂不是中正紀念堂沒有沒有我們只有處理那個街道那個巷弄啊這個是沒有沒有如果地方有中正兩個字的我跟你講我的選區裏面他有一個活動中心叫中正堂他們就反應不勝其擾啊你們每年都公文去然後他們呢老實講地方沒共識他還是得回你嘛公務單位所以他就他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12227.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12246.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
有一點呼嚨的草率也回應了所以這一塊如果這個要有共識的那我想你這個他們到現在沒動但你內政部函詢已經很多次而且要求他每年的進度要回報這個公文好了所以我只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12248.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12258.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
強調我們做任何事真的我們支持但是合法合理之外還要顧及我們民眾的感受不好意思最後這個建築法我問簡單兩個問題一個就是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12263.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12287.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
建築法56條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度那內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府了那可是我們看到整個全國近五年整個零損的案例非常非常的多你授權地方政府你授權地方政府但實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12288.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12299.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
好像為什麼不我們中央來統一我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話那我們整個把它規範好為什麼不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12300.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12325.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
原因是什麼根文報告啦 因為其實這樣的條文在簡單來講就是說 過去107年曾經討論過但是其實當時就引發非常多爭議就是在所謂的第三方勘驗的一個執行單位到底是建築師 土木技師 結構技師那是在什麼樣的程度下去介入那後來因為各個工會的見解也不一 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12326.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12340.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那地方政府的見解不一所以後來大家才同意說不要放在母法而是授權地方政府依實務看看哪個階段需要是哪個工會是哪些單位去做那這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務而不要強制在56條直接去加當時的概念是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12345.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12360.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
不是在實務你還是可以在法條中依據實務給他一個應該這麼說因為這樣反而給地方政府他比較有實際上的權限因為地方政府他本來就有這樣的一個狀況現在地方政府的話產生的問題很大吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12363.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12388.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
公文報告很多所謂的臨損它其實是過程中而不是在勘驗階段的成果所以勘驗是指它過程的結果其實更大的爭議就是說對於建築的建設公司要求完善這一塊我們中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令因為其實這個發生在各縣市都很多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12389.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12416.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
包含天坑各方面的事件也跟我們報告啦因為其實過程當中的問題是最難去處理就是說因為譬如說像我們沒關係啦那我們這樣我們討論法條的時候再來最後最後一題啦現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整沒有人力也是空談我們發現我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多但報道率都大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12417.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12420.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
不到三分之一這個問題凸顯什麼問題也跟我們報告啦其實它有很多面向的問題啦現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題建築實務上來講就是說民間的待遇可能都比比較高這也是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12437.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12443.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那部長有沒有可能這個待遇有沒有可能公務人員都一致在工程會跟人事總署在上個月有開會我們也有表達一些意見就是說對於這一個專業的加級然後對於這一個職等的調升或者是對於相關月聘僱人員勞務承攬人員的一個待遇的提升我們都有提供一些建議給 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12464.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12491.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
給這個人總跟這個工程會你剛剛講了一堆但是現在我們的公務人員而且是專業的那我們需求的是正式的缺額的我都補不足了所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急不然你一次全部要他當然不會答應我們也有包含所謂剛剛講的月聘僱人員因為有些地方政府他會需要用到月聘僱人員那甚至有些是勞務承攬人員我想我們這都有提供一些建議了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12493.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12501.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
但是我們絕對不要還是要繼續爭取啦不然你這樣問題還是很大沒錯 這個我們還是會持續去爭取的好 謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信偉人 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12507.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12528.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
報告委員會登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢我們詢答結束丁薛忠委員所提書面質詢我們列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會第四我們討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束先來散會 |