| IVOD_ID |
16729 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16729 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-04T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-04T12:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:22:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68549a83869710b50b79b5fa2f296a93534fdab1a38f0d348c0664c9fe4c273f4745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長就「勞工退休金制度改革，含勞保、勞退執行現況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 12:52:00 |
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1968.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會 出席人員人數10人 已足法定人數 請主席先步開會現在開會 請議事人員先讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1974.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1982.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年5月28日星期三9時至17時22分5月29日星期四9時至17時22分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員金輝等14人列席委員郭委員玉琴等27人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2003.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2012.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
1 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定2 處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案51案決定1 均同意動之並提報院會2 第14案通過附帶決議一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2020.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2047.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
討論事項一 處理一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案十三案本次會議討論事項第一案及第二案綜合詢答經委員王玉明等十八人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長個人資料保護委員會籌備處組長林益成及各相關主管等即席答覆委員陳昭芝 張家俊 林德福 廖偉祥 圖全吉及李坤成所提書面質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2048.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2060.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
列入記錄刊登公報決議一報告說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定三均同意動之並提報院會討論事項二審查行政院函請審議委員林月琴等16人委員何新淳等16人委員王玉敏等24人委員邱若驊等16人委員黃婕等21人委員蔡易餘等17人 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2078.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2084.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
委員李坤誠等22人委員陳培宇等19人委員郭玉琴等21人委員陳素月等16人委員鄭天才等18人委員王美惠等19人委員林淑芬等25人委員王正旭等18人委員吳佩義等18人分別擬具兒童托育服務法草案等16案兒童托育服務法草案有委員林月琴等3人提出部分條文修正動議決議行政院函請審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2106.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2116.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
兒童托育服務法草案等16案另則其繼續審查討論事項3繼續審查委員王玉敏等18人委員劉建國等16人委員邱志偉等19人以及審查委員李博義等16人委員羅廷偉等16人分別擬據病人自主權力法部分條文修正草案等5案病人自主權力法有委員劉建國等4人提出第5條第9條第14條條文修正動議決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2134.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2157.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員王玉敏等18人擬拒病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等5案除第3條第5條及第15條以外其餘令則其繼續審查審查結果1第3條照委員王玉敏等18人提案及委員劉建國等16人提案通過2第5條照委員劉建國王玉敏等4人所提修正動議修正通過3第15條照委員劉建國等16人提案通過4保留條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2163.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2176.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第四條 第六條 第八條 第九條 第十條 第十二條 第十四條新增第十六條之一 第十七條五保留之修正動議委員 劉建國 王玉敏等四人所提之第九條 第十四條條文修正動議宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2186.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2210.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
沒有那我們意思確定那本日會議大家都關心的我們邀請勞動部長就勞工退休金制度改革含勞保勞退執行的現況進行專案報告並備詢質詢現在介紹在場的委員跟列席官員第一位是林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2216.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2242.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
陳昭之委員我們在場的行政官員勞動部部長洪森漢勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉勞工保險局局長白立正勞動基金應用局局長蘇玉清 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2245.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2249.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂勞動關係師師長王厚偉勞動保險師師長陳美女勞動福祉退休師師長黃維琛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2274.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2295.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
勞動條件就業平等司司長黃琦雅今天立法院委員會只有四個在開會其他四個都去考察所以今天生理比較不好我們國防委員會還去關島考察非常的羨慕 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2304.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2317.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
請問部長哪一個國家的勞動條件比較好的我們去考察真的啊我在排啊接下來我們請勞動部部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2334.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2347.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席各位委員女士先生今天很榮幸應邀至貴委員會就勞工退休金制度改革含勞保勞退執行現況進行專題報告那請各位不吝指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2348.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2363.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
老公退休金制度关系广大劳工的权益不但各界关心瞩目也是重要的政策随着我国迈入高龄化及少子化社会现行的老公退休金制度要如何强化老公退休后经济生活的保障必须更 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2364.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2389.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
必須更加審慎以下就現行的勞工保險老年給付以及勞工退休金的兩大部分進行說明在勞保制度部分勞保是39年開辦至今以75年主要是為了勞工面臨生育傷病失能老年及死亡的時候提供基本的生活保障113年勞保的投保單位計是61萬家被保險人數有1047萬餘人 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2393.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2411.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
为强化劳保的保障自开办以来也陆续修正相关规定比较大的调整是在98年的时候实施了劳保年金制度将失能老年及死亡三种给付由一次给付改采定期持续性的年金给付以确保劳工及医署可以获得长期的经济生活保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2412.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2439.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
劳保实施年金制度后相较以往的一次性给付有了几个比较大的重要制度调整包含年金给付因年资采计无上限固有保月九零月多活月九零月多的性质老年年金也设有展延期减额年金的设计让劳工能按自身生涯规划及需求选择是否延后或提前勤领给付在为维持实质购买力当 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2440.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2459.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
消費者物價指數累計成長率達5%年金請你金額也會跟著調整另外請領勞保老年給付需要達勞保年資滿15年的條件考量勞工進出勞動市場平凡也設計了勞保與國保年資可以並計並分別請領勞保及國保的老年給付機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2465.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2481.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
目前隨著勞保制度邁入成熟期 勞工勤領老年給付的人數及金額逐年增加123年勤領老年一次性給付有八萬九千元年額年額付金額為851億元123年底勤領年金給付有180萬元年額付金額為4176億元在 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2492.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2509.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
老年年金給付的平均勤理金額部分也呈現逐年上升趨勢由98年的12000元提高到123年的19000元勞保對勞工而言是很重要的社會安全制度為維持制度的運作政府從109年起連續6年撥補勞保基金也編列義後特別預算額外300億元的挹注總計編列3870億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2520.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2525.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
且在搭配多元投資運用下,勞保基金累存餘額已從撥補前的7188億元成長到上兆的規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2530.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2550.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
未來本部會市政府財政爭取維持過去年度撥補金額原則續編預算挹注勞保基金並透過鼓勵勞工續留職場積極辦理強化納保及給付省合作業並搭配多元的基金投資等行政作為維持勞保制度穩健運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2551.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2565.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有關外界關心政府撥補及最後支付責任入法的議題本部尊重委員的修法提案又因制度調整涉及其他面向也將通盤研議評估接下來勞工退休金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2566.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2587.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
勞退制度開始於民國40年的台灣省工廠工人退休規則及台灣省礦工退休規則但為使勞工工作勞動條件保障更為完善並擴大適用對象於73年制定公佈勞動基準法以退休專章明定勞工退休條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2588.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2617.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
雇主给付标准以及罚则但是因我国中小企业居多平均全训年限短很难在同一家事业单位工作到退休另一方面劳工也会有职业上的变动需求可是一旦离职转换工作工作年资并无法累积种种原因导致这笔退休金往往看得到吃不到因而开启劳退就职制改革并于94年7月1日实施劳工退休金条例也就是劳退新制 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2617.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2624.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
為改善勞退救治的問題並增進勞工退休權益勞退新制改採確定提撥制 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2626.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2655.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
由雇主每月提繳勞工工資6%以上之退休金至勞工個人帳戶讓勞工可以退休金帶著走自此勞工不再因轉換或被迫轉換工作影響勤領退休金之權益此外為使勞工可以為退休後的經濟需求多做準備累積退休所得勞退薪資讓勞工也可以在每月工資6%的範圍內自願提繳退休金配套上透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2656.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2679.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
免列計年度所得課稅之稅負優惠鼓勵勞工自願提繳而勞工請你退休金時並提供不低於兩年期定期存款利率之保證收益保本又保利的方式來穩定勞工退休生活自94年7月1日退休勞退新制實施開始截至114年3月底勞退新制是提繳事業單 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2682.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2708.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
以提繳的事业单位已达59万余加总提繳的人数是760万余人平均提繳的工资为46938元令经政府多年的努力宣导劳工资源提繳的退休金人数也目前达超过120万人目前领取退月退休金件数是204833件领一次退休金件数是120万 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2711.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2727.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
5668件那這個我想保障每一位勞工老年基本經濟生活穩固勞保及退勞退制度的發展讓勞工可以安穩退休是政府持續努力的目標以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝好謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2735.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2758.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那有關本市會議各項書面資料進列入紀錄刊登公報那我們現在開始詢答 做以下先告等委員會詢答時間8分鐘 列席4分鐘10點半截止花園登記委員如果有書面質詢 請一三位請提出 預期不受理暫定10點半左右 休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2759.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2769.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
沿著上11點處理臨時提案11點半臨時提案然後11點截止說案那我們現在請第一位委員陳昭芝發言謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2784.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2812.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
陳委員早部長早部長上次我們在處理這個解凍案的時候我有要求勞動部希望能夠修改勞保條例把這個最終的給負責任入法那當時附帶決議是有修正後通過了雖然我不是很滿意當時部長您一直把責任先推給這個主計總處但我也明白你的難處所以我今天還是要就這個問題跟部長做一些釐清勞保它本來就是勞工老年之後的一個經濟保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2814.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2815.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是現在卻成為一個不定時炸彈為什麼我這樣說呢根據勞動部最新的精算報告勞保基金財務用慶的時間是2028年後到2031年之間但潛藏的負債仍然從10.29兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2833.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2849.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
上升到13.23兆那目前只能透過不斷的撥補來維持但是人口的老化跟萎縮我們預期這個缺口就是會越來越大那部長你看第一會期的時候勞動部在回答楊耀委員的一個書面報告當時勞動部有針對健全勞保財務作為表示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2856.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2877.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
撥補對財務狀況有正面幫助未來將是財務狀況持續撥補那我覺得這些話就是鴕鳥心態啊就是就是一年透過一年啊就是說我們就繼續撥補繼續撥補這樣所以一直就是說沒有去處理面對政策就是拿人民的納稅錢來來持續燒嘛燒人民納稅其實部長我並沒有反對撥補啊但是政府不應該把這個撥補當做唯一的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2880.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2891.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
解決這個方法那請部長參考這個前勞保局長石發基他在3月受訪時表示年金案通膨調高幾幅造成勞保的財務的動實在太大了問題很嚴重那撥補再多都會被通膨所侵蝕 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2899.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2920.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他過去也主張撥補來代替勞保改革啊但是隨著這幾年通膨嚴重那加上川普上任後整個社會整個世界這個經濟動盪前幾年基金投資報酬雖然高但是今年可不可以如此我們都不知道啊那勞保財務要永續其實是很困難的那請問部長對於健全勞保財務還是問一樣的問題難道只有讓人民不斷的掏錢來的手段嗎就不斷的撥補嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2928.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2942.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我想我們其實對於這個勞保基金的這個維持的做法的政策其實並不是只有撥補撥補很重要但是其實也不是只有撥補那各種的方式我們其實也都在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2944.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2966.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
各種方式就是說那個報告我們還是等待專題報告就是上次我們修正主決議之後去年10月民眾黨有召開一個公聽會不知道部長知不知道勞保財務最終政府最終責任入法的公聽會我整理幾點勞工朋友的心聲給部長做參考全國職業工會理事長楊雲平說勞工長達數十年的工作生涯當中持續的繳納保費 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2972.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2991.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
如果財務基金出了問題卻沒有人來負責的話受害的將是最需要的保障的這群弱勢族群那全國勞工聯合總工會理事長林耕豪他也說政府從上到下勞動部新聞稿都宣示政府會負最終支付責任但是勞工最擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2992.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3009.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他會想說會不會只有指紋樓梯想但是沒有落實所以勞工朋友他最關心的就是他們年年繳納健保費繳納保費但會不會終將化為烏有所以我要請教部長部長你是不是還支持勞保最終支付責任要入法呢您還支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3010.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3034.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想我們其實現在整個的政策就是這個政府必須負起勞保財務的最終責任那入法呢 我的重點還是入法入法的問題就不管有入法沒入法政府都會負最終責任你看這張就是你當初有簽嗎 我有簽你也簽啊 就是入法啊所以我說對於這相關的政策對委員的提案我們都還是會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3035.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3053.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那在野黨為什麼要再提入環招因為這個問題實在放太久了啦放太久了那因為沒有人想要解決我要強調其實我想很清楚我們絕對不是只聞樓梯響其實現在政府亦有包括稅積剩餘的財源其實我們就是這個財政的狀況來規劃撥補包括這一次的特別預算都有規劃撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3059.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3082.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以這個特別條例跟特別預算我們都有規劃撥補所以我們是很努力的在落實政府對於勞保基金的這個財務的責任的問題上並不是只聞不低響我想我們不會這樣子我知道你想要透過多元的方法來維持這個基金的水位我想也是有心來解決問題但是大家就是說對於入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3083.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3087.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
入法是白紙黑字他確立政府的責任讓政府能夠誠實的去面對這個問題也讓撥補可以正常化勞工就不用等間提心吊膽因為看到報紙就寫說快破產了 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3098.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3121.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
您要記得您的立法我們對於現在委員在這部分的法案的提案我想我們第一個尊重第二個是確實行政院我們也是在整體之前也有委員包括林國成委員其實在院會的咨詢其實我想行政院跟院長其實有時候表達是持開放的態度我覺得我們可以來演繹那我想這就是我們其實對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3123.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3148.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們就等著那個主決議的修正的內容看怎麼來開始開始開始動手那部長今天我在報告中沒有看到就是說台灣開放移工已經有36年了雖然說勞保有70幾年歷史那我們台灣的那個照護產業跟這個基層製造業非常高度仰賴這個移工的付出但目前勞保跟勞退制度改革我們大部分都集中在本勞 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3149.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3175.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那移工的處境其實也應該納入討論5月18號他們有到勞動部前去訴求部長知道這件事嗎有我知道部長知道那臺灣照顧勞動產業工會他們指出這個就業服務法目前它是從1992年就開始實施到現在也是三十幾年了仍然保留對移工不合理的制度譬如說它對攔領的移工現行法設有12年的工作上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3177.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3198.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
雖然看護工可以再滿足這個所謂的評點制度延後到14年但是還是上限 還是有上限那雖然有推出所謂留用外國中階技術工作人力計畫作為延長工作許可的一個方法但這個制度卻使勞工 使移工進入更深入的剝削我告訴部長為什麼因為中階的配額跟認定方法是完全由僱主來主導的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3204.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3220.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
沒有移工本身沒有談判權那他所設的條件也足以讓這個以盈利為目的的私營企業的人力仲介有機可乘來收取高額的費用使得想要延長工作的這些移工承受更沉重的這個負擔部長你知道這個狀況嗎我知道這場記者會也知道這裡面訴求的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3224.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3239.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你知道狀況是這樣那其實船體們有表示計劃出發點是好的你想要留才久用但是沒有辦法落實是他們最擔心的因為現在的制度無法客觀的評價工人本身是不是具有這個行業內他所謂的徵才實幹因為現在把評價的責任外包給雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3243.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3265.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那同時這個制度當中這個制度在這個過程當中就創造許多工人更不可能參與的一個行政的手續那等於給了這個人力仲介上下席手賺取違法收入的空間我舉幾個負面影響來告訴部長第一個工資被操控為了能留在台灣繼續工作不少移工不得不配合雇主跟這個仲介簽訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3266.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3294.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
不符合事實的勞動契約接受低於中階制度規定的工資這是第一個工資是被操控的第二個家庭看護工因為他本身缺乏休假那資訊比較封閉也因為這個中階的工作大多把持在人力仲介的手中他們常常淪為辦理這個中階制度所需證照的黃牛詐騙對象通常被騙了好幾萬的台幣來取得證照可是這個證照本身應該是很容易拿甚至不要錢的這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3296.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3318.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
第二個點這種狀況會加重看護工的負擔那他們今年的家事工跟正事部門工資的差距已經達到42.9%這個差距那第三個問題點是中階移工返國後他想再回來台灣很困難因為已經取得中階資格的移工如果回國後想要回到台灣必須透過母國的仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3319.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3339.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那會遇到一些困難台灣的仲介也不肯幫忙為什麼呢因為仲介移工已經免除了每個月的仲介費仲介無利可圖所以這一切都在證明這個所謂的仲介目前的仲介制度裡面真正受益的不是移工是仲介是仲介受益的 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3343.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3363.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
您今天的報告都沒有提到這個部分我們過去很多的提案要增加移工但是你又都說有困難表示台灣沒有競爭力沒有競爭力當然是很大的一些問題很多的原因但是我想說他們也貢獻了三十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3364.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3379.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以說我們會有幾個事情其實確實我們相關的制度裡面都還有可以精進的空間但我們會從幾個部分來第一個我想我們會再更明確的去確保包括中階技術人力包括藍領相關在台灣的權益這是第一個第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3380.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3397.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我們會要來其實我想我們現在其實已經交代我們的法案署我們會來強化政府在外籍勞工聘僱過程裡面的責任跟功能也就是說的確我們是希望不要再那麼過度的依賴仲介 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3398.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3420.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
讓政府在聘僱過程裡面的功能能夠發揮的更大也所以剛剛其實有人在講的我們確實接下來是希望有未來有更多的移工或僱主他們要在台灣的這個聘僱招聘的過程裡面他不一定一定非得要透過證券那包括職聘的制度轉換的制度我們其實現在都在檢討甚至會做進一步的整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3421.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3439.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
產業公會三點訴決很清楚第一個廢除攔領移工的工作年限限制第二個修正中介制度你剛剛提到公平透明並保障移工的權利第三個廢除仲介制度全面用直聘直接聘僱的機制來取代所以剛剛你講了一些點那這些東西的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3440.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3455.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
部長部內有在處理嗎有在規劃嗎就像剛才跟委員說明的我們的確現在就是想要來提高我們在職聘上面的量能還有包括它的功能能夠讓移工也好僱主也好更好用 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3456.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3476.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那能夠更直接的用政府的機制就能順利的完成移工聘入過程所需要相關的權力的保護而不一定一定非得要透過人力仲介才能夠達成這是我們接下來其實會希望盡力來做的事情我都一直在質詢但是包括新的來源國也都沒有動靜啊有新的來源國也都不做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3478.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3502.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
委員並不是新的來源我跟委員說我還是要強調就像在五月的時候我們其實已經說我們接下來會在中南部在增設包括我們的職聘中心的點職聘中心的點接下來甚至也會跟轉換中心我們希望能夠來做相關的整合也就是希望能對移工相關的權益的服務我們都希望有一個更大程度的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3502.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3517.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我另外再提一點請說家庭照顧的壓力是越來越重了制度沒有提供足夠的支持那導致移工跟僱主關係很緊繃這不是僱主的錯而是說政府還是要來插手來管理這件事部長你在當立委的時候你也非常關心移工的權利嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3518.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3545.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那你也理解這個移工在臺灣整體勞動政策是處於弱勢你也知道需求越高我們修了好幾個法到現在都還沒有辦法去進行那處境也叫本國勞工辛苦一些那我是想說政府如果真的希望看到一個永續具有包容性的退休制度就是說除了我們要照顧本勞的一個未來那也應該正是這一群為臺灣經濟跟製造業照顧體系等等付出的移工那部長您認同這樣做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3546.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3562.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我當然同 我現在也還是很關心公共的權利你就我們像巴士量表等等放官到現在都沒有動靜啊你也一直告訴我們說根本沒有來源啊等等等等那你就要從競爭的...我要強調並不是沒有動靜我想我們法案署的同仁非常非常努力的在準備相關的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3563.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3578.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
現在在配套準備其實他們花了非常非常多心力在準備相關的配套就是希望要降低降低修法以後可能會對重症家庭帶來的衝擊因為確實現在有一些器重則輕的狀況已經開始有在發生了這是我們不願意見到的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3579.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3596.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那個勞動部責任真的重大我想讓部長知道就是說因為身為部長這個位階台灣是一個注重人權的國家不論國籍跟福祉我認為一個國家在國際地位最重要除了他的經濟力要很強之外人權的議題是非常重要我也希望在勞動部這個責任要擔起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3598.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3611.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你過去我們有一些惡名嘛這個也是不爭之事實啦希望就是說你把這個人權的部分包括移工的人權部分當作重要的課題來處理好嗎好勞動部請加油謝謝主席謝謝接下來我們請林月琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3629.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3633.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有請我們的勞動部 洪部長請部長部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3643.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3671.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
日本那個社會學者藤田孝典在2015年就提出了下流老人的概念指的是過著貧困且孤獨生活的高齡者要是下流老人人數比例過高的話社會就會負擔高額的社會福利支出那台灣今年進入到超高齡社會那當然日本在老化的程度上比我們更早所以想問也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3672.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3699.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
兼下流老人的問題在於經濟安全所以想問部長預防老人貧窮的問題根本是在勞動主管的退勞保高齡就業業務這個概念你同意嗎我同意我們當然是要避免這個剛剛委員說的狀況我想我們也是各部會員很重要的一份子特別是低薪非典就業者就像派遣工啊 零工啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3700.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3708.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
在勞退制度當中的制度形式上是弱勢那勞動部提出什麼樣的政策來預防這些勞工未來成為下流勞人 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3709.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3730.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
我想除了剛剛委員剛才講到的這個勞退或者是老年金的相關的制度以外其實我們也持續的在落實我們在中高齡就業的專法上面那也因為這個專法其實目前看起來整體的這個老年的勞參率其實是有提高的那也包括這裡面其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3732.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3747.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
藉由這個法也來發布了這個中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進計畫那這大概都是希望能夠透過促進更多的這個老年人能夠再一次的參與就業來去確保他在經濟生活的維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3750.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3774.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那從法院審理民事案件的實務當中我們看那個參考資料來看的話台灣社會每個月必要的生活費用大概在一萬七到兩萬三之間可是如果撫養一個人的話就費用會增加一倍那高齡者退休後的收入包括我們的勞工退休金或是過去工資的存款還有就是勞保年金還有他的資產的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3775.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3802.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
投資這四大項到2023年為止的話勞工保險年金給付每個月平均可以領到18824元加上勞退薪資平均每月大概可以領到4616元一個月這樣看起來可以領23440元可是如果高齡者如果他退休後沒有其他收入的話表示這兩筆的社會保險的錢最多只能打平他的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3803.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3830.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
基本需求他大概要撫養其他的比如妻子什麼大概就是不太可能所以想問一下退休後光靠勞保勞退錢是不夠用的那是不是應該要提醒勞工所以部長您覺得因為我們現在看到的事實上是我覺得勞動部對這個問題好像一直是避重就輕沒有做好社會溝通所以部長是不是可以去負起這樣的傳遞真實訊息的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3834.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3860.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
第一個當然我覺得我們會一直來鼓勵這個勞工在勞退上面的自體因為確實如果在這個工作的過程裡面其實就逐步的有一定自體的比例的話都對於其實退休以後能夠領到的退休金其實是有蠻顯著的幫助的我覺得這部分我們會盡力來做那另外當然就是剛才說到確實我們也看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3861.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3880.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
這個也因為社會的高齡化所以其實有蠻多的高齡者他其實是還有工作能力的這也是為什麼剛才在講到說這個中高齡及高齡者的專法裡面去協助大家還有他可以所長可以發揮的地方那一方面他也可以再有多一點在老年生活的收入這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3881.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3903.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以在退休收入不足的狀況下 勞動部我認為是有義務去提醒他們 勞工透過商業保險或是儲蓄來提前做財務規劃來確保他的生活 甚至要不要自體那6%也是一種方式所以我覺得這件事應該要盡快來進行了 那就麻煩勞動部當然這個部分我們會來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3904.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3920.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那社會保險的目的本來就是在穩健投資確保基本生活可是財經界一直有一種自提自選的訴求可是在概念上是把保本跟投資混為一談我覺得相當危險目前勞退基金的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3921.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3946.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
投保率在2.96%到4.04%比定存高一点为稳健保本的一个投资策略那反过来说呢这里是演的这样子感受上好像劳工会赚大钱可是其实上搞不好赚不多反而搞不好要承担投资失败的风险所以从2023年的这样子的一个劳工平均每月可以领 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3948.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3959.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
4616元的勞退基金來說的話自體6%可以加倍領取到9232元可是如果自體自選的投報率如果達到一倍的話的確可以領到13848元那對勞工來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3963.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3981.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
因為由於投入的資本小順利的話事實上每個月僅能增加4616元的收入可是如果投資失利的話這個字體的6%可能就是全部都賠光了那所以這才是說贊成跟反對兩派意見衝突的癥結點 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3982.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4009.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
所以勞動部在整個討論過程當中我認為一直沒有去我認為還是在避重就輕沒有好好說給勞工聽部長你會積極向社會說明嗎我就會有一個誤解認為說他就會賺大錢因為社會上面當然一直有人在提議自選這個問題但目前其實我想我們的政策上是沒有開放自選的那當然第一個最大的考慮其實就是關於風險承受的問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4012.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4037.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我想我們還是會讓我們相關的這個基金的操作盡量的穩健成長然後來保障老公他的這個他的年金上面的收益或者是他經濟上的收益可是他們也現在會有一個這樣問題所以我說如果政府也保證自選的最終也是合理的保證他能夠有一個給付你覺得這樣子有道理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4040.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4066.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
報告委員因為那個自選的話其實就是相當的風險那這樣的風險當勞工選擇一個高風險那政府還要來保證這個高風險的收益那這個是一個問題這個部分的話就很難再做這樣的一個處理是所以我說連帶要說清楚的是對於操作基金的投資公司拿全體勞工的自體的錢去做操作金額大操作費跟利息高而且不用承擔風險的話對財團來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4069.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4089.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
來講的話投報的那個效高那跟勞工自選的單薄的利潤相差比市場是極大的可是風險要由勞工承擔利益累積的話是在財團那這一點勞動部應該是不是要跟我們的社會大眾交代清楚再表達你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4090.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4104.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
反對的理由去做這樣可以嗎我想我們在這個相關的政策的選擇上面其實這真的都是一個風險怎麼去評估跟認知的問題所以我們當然其實也很願意跟社會大眾來溝通這裡面其實該怎麼認知這些相關的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4106.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4126.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那務實的來看普遍能夠增加高齡者收入彌補年金退休金不足的方法便是提高高齡者的勞動參與率可是現實是45歲到49歲人口退休前勞動參與率就已經是到85.56%了昨年下降到65歲勞動參與率只剩下9.97%跟國際相比65歲以上的勞動參與率跟人家差非常的多所以想問勞動部再提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4135.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4140.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
勞參率這件事情上應採取45到54歲留在職場55歲到64歲延緩退出職場65歲以上的話談性再就業的分離策略勞動部的目前的規劃狀況是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4151.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4178.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
確實我們看目前台灣在高齡者的勞參率的部分確實還是比一些國家來的低這個是我們也很清楚所以我們現在是很積極的也透過剛才說我們這個中高齡的就業的專法來去推動確實這幾年下來是有看到成果的那我們還會在持續的在針對這個部分在努力那另外一方面我們一直在跟企業溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4179.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4203.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
其實包括怎麼樣去克服企業可能聘僱高齡者他會遇到的一些問題比方說如果企業擔心可能怎麼樣設計比較適合高齡者他在身體上面的強度那有辦法支撐的話那我們其實現在也在透過比較像植物在設計等等的方法來去來消除可能企業來聘僱我們中高齡或高齡者的時候他可能會有的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4204.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4230.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這裡面會有一些挑戰那我想政府這邊是非常非常願意大力的來協助那我們也看到越來越多的企業有這個意識接下來恐怕在就業市場上面高齡者中高齡者他的重要性就是會大幅的提升我們就是必須要在這個問題上面來合作確實我們現在已經進入到超高齡部長剛剛提到說植物在設計這個概念上真的也很努力可是一直侷限在製成的變更跟輔助的設備上的應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4234.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4252.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以尽管中高龄及高龄者就业促进法已经明定部分工时作为促进的手段可是还是缺乏这种职务在设计没有去考虑到部分工时职缺开发跟媒合的策略所以想问一下部长未来对此你要怎么做 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4252.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4267.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為不是只有輔具而已或是說他去把那個流程或是用機器來減少掉他死藥可是問題是他坐整天他搞不好也沒有辦法其實跟我說第一個剛才其實委員講到幾個重要的概念第一個是部分工事因為確實蠻多高齡者他 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4269.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4298.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
他就是表達他比較沒有辦法去做全職的工作他可能就是部分公司的工作其實現在也越來越多企業意識到這件事情所以我們其實也跟很多企業在討論甚至在輔導企業怎麼把相關的工作其實做一個有效的拆解或者是說這個職務上面可以做一定的拆解但是拆解的同時還是要符合我們在那個勞動法規上面的法尊這部分我們會來輔導這部分那第二剛才在講到職務在設計其實我想其實也不是只是單純請他們用輔具而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4298.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4328.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我們會來把植物在設計在在各個產業或各種職類上面在推動的更細膩因為可能不同的產業或者是不同的植物他所需要的植物在設計是不太一樣的那我們在這部分的分眾其實我們會來做的更細膩那能夠對企業或者是對高齡者的工作其實有更多的幫助那再麻煩勞動部因為我們現在已經進入超高齡然後人力需求又這麼高那本期日前呢提出勞動部制定我們的政策推動退休到 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4329.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4340.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
退休前的一到兩年勞工提前跟原僱主或新僱主議定65歲屆齡退休後的那個新勞動契約這個政策勞動部現在研擬的進度如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4341.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4359.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
跟因為委員其實一直很關心這個問題那我們其實這部分當然也在檢討但是現有有一些跟僱主協商的機制可沒有希望能夠把它再更優化那所以我想再給我們一點時間那我們再來跟委員這邊來做一個報告最後就期待我剛剛今天質詢的這四點麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4360.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4375.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們的勞動部這邊能夠面對到超高齡社會避免下流老人的事件發生針對勞工退休金跟勞保年金跟就業理財這四管旗下來正視這個問題好謝謝謝謝我們請劉建國委員好謝謝主席來部長就不用再坐下去了請部長謝謝請部長上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4389.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4413.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
根據勞金局公布的最新資料目前勞動基金總規模是7兆1千多億在今年美國對等關稅影響下已經虧損了將近1千9百多億如果再加上委託管理的國民年金保險基金還有這個農民的退休基金應該是總虧損高達2千多億然後民間有個說法就是說平均每年賠1萬多 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4415.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4435.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你覺得這樣的說法正確嗎如果不正確請趕快更正說明清楚我想這個說法當然是不對的勞工朋友提繳的年金那是絕對不會減少的尤其是像在我們勞退機制裡面其實就有保障的收益制度雖然看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4436.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4465.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這過去一段時間因為美國關稅的原因所以它在收益上面是有些波動但是我們在這個勞退的保障收益機制裡面其實是有確保其實累積的收益一定會是不低於銀行兩年期定存利率的保障收益那這是勞退的部分那勞保的部分我們是確定給付制所以基金收益的波動是不會影響到勞保給付的金額我想這部分是我們一定會來跟社會來講清楚剛剛委員在講說市面上面在流傳的這個說法我想它是不正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4466.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4490.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
對 所以你們就是站在勞動部的這個立場一定要儘早把這事情說明清楚不然好像兩千多一起處理兩千三百萬人平均每一個人要賠一萬多這種算法實在是有在勞動民心我覺得是很不正確原本投資是有起有落那我們有設定所謂的保障機制基本上就不可能有這種事情發生所以這必須要儘快的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4490.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4511.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
說明清楚是其一但是美國關稅90天期間將至在7月8日前或許我們會朝向好的方向去發展也或許會朝向不是好的方向去發展來不如這邊針對相關的基金運用上有沒有什麼因應的作為跟基本的方針 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4513.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4523.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
因為當川普大陸宣布這樣的事情的情況之下確實造成很大的市場上的波動那我們現在不曉得南東部的因應作用是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4525.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4547.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我想因為現在台灣的我們國家的談判團隊正在跟美國在做這個關稅的談判但是我想勞動部有可能就像剛剛文說有可能比較往好的狀況發展也有可能往比較這個嚴峻的狀況那從勞動部的角度我們當然一定會把情境設定是比較嚴峻的狀況來去做相關的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4548.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4576.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
因為如果嚴峻的狀況你過得了的話好的狀況其實當然就也比較能夠過所以我們包括現在在這個現在的這個特別條例裡面其實已經有規劃了150億的這個經費那如果150億來協助來支持我們勞動朋友度過關稅的這樣子的衝擊還不夠的話其實我們也還有包括我們的救保或者是救安的基金其實可以來支應不是不是不是部長我的問題focus是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4578.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4599.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
勞動基金的運用這些相關的基金有沒有一個具體的方針然後避免這樣的這個基金的虧損持續擴大對不對跟委員報告我們勞動基金的運用我們一向就是從長期來看市場的波動一定有我當然說是從長期來看啦不是看短暫的這個我非常清楚嘛對不對但是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4600.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4624.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
因為川普大帝的這樣的一個震撼力有時候真的你必須要去有一些具體的因應方針來做處理我們會持續關我們一向本來就是會關注市場的變化隨時來調整那在市場整個大跌的時候我們的基金的運用絕對不會像市場所說的全部殺出認賠出來這個反而對我們基金不利 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4628.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4640.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我要補充說明你不要出言你不用在委會講你只要跟我講說因為這個美國對你關稅而且7月8日到期有沒有任何的你們有評估過的相關研擬的具體方針可以來做這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4643.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4663.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
較好的營運 避免基金的虧損擴大 就這樣而已委員跟您報告這個投資本來每天就要看市場所以我們內部隨時都在調整我們的策略我們基本上我們每年有一個大策略但是我們每季也有我們隨時都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4664.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4683.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
你們每年都有大策略我知道但是你們每年大策略沒有包含到川普的這種個性的死難嘛所以他是一個很突破狀況他是一個很不確定的狀況他是一個從頭到尾我們不可預知的一個狀態情況之下劉謙許有沒有相關的因應的具體方針這樣就好了啦你簡單回應我就好好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4685.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4703.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
有沒有啦有有好謝謝這樣就好了不要再講下去了你又說到時候是因為你的一些講話造成一些波動這樣也不好對不對好我們接著請請回吧請部長你再看一下因為是受到美國人關稅這樣的一個影響嘛目前這個全台15星價 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4704.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4715.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
已經達到155家受影響的勞工高達2800多人無薪假當然是直接影響勞工的大議題未來七八個月會不會有更多企業、廠家提出無薪假通報我們不能去預估 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4719.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4743.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
未來這幾個月到底可能會有在多少家提出來然後我們針對這幾家可能受到衝擊是怎麼樣有沒有去做相關的一些預估各位報告其實我們一直在密切的監測跟關注現在這個我們會講減班休息因為他並不是真的無薪啦那這個減班休息加速那確實現在是大概其實是有微幅的緩步的上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4744.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4769.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那但是17月8號之後會不會原有的直接沖洗變成間接沖洗這個影響會不會更大我們現在其實我們也做好相關的準備了這個準備其實就包括我們的僱用安定措施包括我們這個充電再觸發的措施都是如果接下來這個無薪假確實有擴大的話怎麼樣來支持我們可能會受影響的勞工在收入上面的這個減損那我們怎麼樣來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4771.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4797.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以這幾個我們都做包括剛剛在講到就是說透過特別條例的150億那也包括我們的救保的基金其實就是來做這方面的因應好 我只是要提醒部長因為我還是特別強調剛剛上個題目問題是一樣的因為你面對川普的狀況很多事情你是很難預估的然後我們或許跟美國談後來可能會朝向很好的方向去發展那有些事情就一恩而解嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4798.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4816.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那萬一不是呢相反之那勞動部可能要辦起更重大的這樣的一個應變的能力跟責任嘛現在確實減班休息裡面目前看起來是在比較多那有幾個特定的產業其實增加的幅度會多一點可是我們其實很密切在監測也主動的跟這些相關的工會或者產業在座座談來提供我們協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4817.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4846.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
不過我是針對點的這一個現在我們遇到這個狀況真的是跟以前完全不一樣那如果我用兩千萬半兩千萬以下來對比當時全國實施無薪假高達五百八十幾家啦受到影響的勞工將近快到二十四萬嘛對不對那我們我們新任的調兵師我們黃師長宋永是這麼講嘛目前對等對美的這個對等關稅能有高度的不確定性台灣也正與美國談判中政府採取謹慎態度密切掌握通報的事業單位狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4847.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4869.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
會主動聯繫通報事業單位進行輔導方式提供勞動部勞動力發展署如充電再出發訓練計畫僱用安定措施等支援以保障勞工權利對不對OK沒問題我請教一下目前155家有提出充電再出發訓練計畫還有僱用安定措施有幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4870.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4897.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
現在是比較少的 目前有提出為什麼會比較少因為不好用因為不知道怎麼用應該是確實有些僱主我們其實有問他說你要不要提出比方說充電材出發可是僱主目前是說他沒有意願你們要去鼓勵他們要提出嘛對不對當然而且我們現在其實在甚至檢討因為過去其實是要透過僱主才能夠申請我們現在新的設計勞工直接就可以申請不然你能不能直接打給我150家目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4898.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4908.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
提出是幾家啦 簡單就好這兩個計畫 充電站目前是七家七家 七家這樣不到一趴多對 啊僱用勒 僱用安定措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4909.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4933.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
顧問安定措施現在是大概30家30家兩成多合理嗎合不合理嗎我們確實覺得要再提高所以這也是為什麼我們現在是設計我們自己包括勞動部跟地方政府我們會主動的來聯繫已經放這個減班休息的勞工你們的計畫到底是不是沒有吸引力 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4937.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4956.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我自己覺得當很多的雇主他聽完完整的了解我們計畫的設計以後他們是覺得這是不錯的有吸引力的可是確實現在是有很多的企業他對我們相關的企業都覺得有吸引力然後又不提出然後提出又是一層多那你還覺得有一些聽完他就有來表達155家目前為止執行有聽完的幾家 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4960.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4977.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我們其實都沒有主動聯繫啦沒有主動聯繫不然你怎麼會講說有幾家聽起來覺得還不錯是幾家嘛我們一個電台資料基本上要有個基本的數額嘛對不對155家如果是有一家兩家聽到覺得還不錯這兩家又不提出來那這真的還不錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4982.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4985.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
監察院這個報告裡面這當然不是新的署長的任內也不是部長任內 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4992.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5017.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
老化福青年自來發展中心運作長達12年能為訂定福基線均與產出型指標衡量績效至達成旅超標200%甚至破千以上能夠提升青年就業資成效為敏因為優先對就業不利的青年族群建構差異性自來福島模式福利內容高度重疊交易部門導致相關經費預算乃至專職專業人力長期低度投資已發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5022.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5049.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我要一次講這兩個事情啦這是監察院剛剛糾正的5月21號糾正的沒有錯嘛對不對好那我再回歸到頭這裡面還有很多洋洋灑灑寫的一大堆東西啦齁我再回歸到頭就是說你的充電債出發你的職癌你的僱用安定措施到底陳如妮說的好不好用聽了大家都覺得還不錯但是大家都不提出申請還是提出申請的比例非常低 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5051.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5055.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
應該就是有檢討的必要的空間了嘛對不對對當然當然都有精進的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5058.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5066.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
什麼時候可以檢討盤整完成 提出修正相關的計畫因為7月8號快到了 到時候還是這個計畫一層多 那個計畫兩層多關於充電災出發的部分 我們其實近期我們已經都取得了這些可能放減班休息勞工的聯繫方式 我們會直接聯繫這個勞工本人 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5081.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5097.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
不一定一定非得要透過僱主因為過去就是僱主他覺得他他沒有意願可是這可能會影響了勞工來舉舉的自己的權利變化就是說原有僱主提出申請現在勞工可以提出申請嘛對不對好這個應變的措施我OK我接受但是實質的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5099.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5122.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
真的有幫助嗎真的覺得不錯嗎還是部長你個人認為不錯他其實能夠獲得的訓練的津貼那其實是對於勞工在收入上面的影響是有幫助的我們就要檢視現在才六月初而已嘛我們六月底來檢視嘛反正我們這是研會到七月底了對不對這一個月內如果這兩個計畫你都沒有辦法因為一個一成多實在很難去幫你訂這個KPI啦你都沒有辦法超過五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5130.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5133.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那你這兩個計畫要不要大幅的去修正?要不要? |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5134.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5162.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
要不要?我們會強化的來執行但是你不能逼人家執行啊你不能在委員會說大家聽起來都不錯啊但是我們就不要申請啊結果你如果說我怎樣怎樣他就給你打出來申請結果那個還是假的就像監察院糾正的狀況狀況的事情會持續發生我不好意思再唸下去的這幾項再唸下去真的這個老蛙署新來的署長可能你要有相關的因應作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5163.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5184.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
因為監察院已經提出糾正 你不要未來這兩個計畫又被糾正不好 我只是提醒一個月內相關的調整計畫 成立委員會然後提高申請的比例 破50% OK 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長 謝謝各位辛苦了好 謝謝我們劉建國召委接下來我們請陳金輝委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5193.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5198.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝委員還有我想請洪孫安部長好 請洪部長教練好 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5206.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5234.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
部長我們現在觀光面臨一個很大的問題我們預期希望有1000萬的觀光客但是只來了700萬再來還有很嚴重的缺工那1111人力銀行有個調查目前旅宿產業有30%的業者反映說他們有聘僱移工的需求調查也指出說為什麼他們需要聘用移工是因為第一可以補足人力的缺口再來可以解決排班的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5235.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5250.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
然後有立即上工的即戰力但本席感到不解的是就算您有跟觀光署開會或者是沒有開會為什麼是由觀光署來宣布說旅宿業將有條件來開放移工這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5252.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5278.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
跟文說明我們當然確實有跟觀光署來進行一些意見的交換但是我想很清楚相關的政策當然還是有勞動部來主政是那您是什麼時候會來宣布相關的資訊因為旅宿業者關心的是現在快要暑假了嘛家長們要帶小朋友在國內玩或是國外旅客也會過來可他們現在人力嚴重不足如果您已經有觀光署開會他們想知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5279.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5301.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
您預計是從哪些國家或者說這個期程是如何大概人數是多少您可以給我們一些基本的資訊嗎根本說明因為這涉及到其實跨國勞動力的政策的變更那針對跨國勞動力政策其實當然我們都會有幾個最重要的原則第一個是要避免這個本國勞工的就業機會受到影響那甚至我們在接下來的這個機制的設計裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5304.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5331.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們還希望能夠促成其實能夠對於本勞的加薪其實是有幫助的那再來其實就是很就是剛剛委員其實講到當然我們也希望能夠兼顧產業能夠有充足的勞動力可以來運用甚至有助於企業的流財那所以這幾個部分是我們在思考這些相關政策的原則那的確現在我們還在做進一步的政策的評估之中部長你剛剛講的都很好但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5332.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5360.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
觀光署已經宣布有條件開放所以你這邊是不是也是有條件開放我要再說一次這個政策是由勞動部來主政勞動部來宣布勞動部來主政跨國勞動力的政策是勞動部在主政所以之後其實您還會再正式的發佈對我們現在在做進一步的研議跟包括我們這些相關的研議之後我們會再來跟社會各界來報告那當然最後我們的政策的走向好 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5362.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5384.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
講到這個的話因為剛我有發現劉建國委員已經很在意你們有許許多多的專案執行率都非常的差那這個當然你也會知道勞動部去年八月底開放畢業的僑外生可以任職旅宿業現在已經六月了幾乎已經過一年你也知道現在有幾個人申請吧應該知道蠻少的很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5386.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5404.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
就只有一個人啊對剛剛他講一趴兩趴兩成其實這些數據大家已經覺得難以想像了結果呢你開放喬外申來任職旅宿業一年來就只有一個人申請這個是不是也需要大幅的做改革啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5405.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5427.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
跟文說明確實這個喬艾森從事理事會的部分他其實會有個條件是要先經過觀光署或者是相關的觀光的單位他要經過80個小時的課程可是我們這個過程裡面我們一直在督促觀光署應該要盡快的來召開相關的課程所以一直到近期比較相關的課程才開出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5427.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5447.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以你的意思是說觀光署課程的密度跟頻繁度比較少以至於有意願的人想申請我們一直在提醒觀光署要趕快把課程給開出來所以您那邊已經有多少人跟您反映說因為觀光署的課程不夠頻繁所以他們沒辦法來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5447.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5456.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
就是我們一直在督促他因為確實這個喬艾森要申請中階的這件事情是會要經過80個小時的這樣子的訓練的 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5460.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5484.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
但你還是需要做改變除了增加頻率以外你有沒有別的想法否則我們就是一個人如果都一直都一個人怎麼辦我想我們會很積極的來改善這個相關的勞動力的問題所以現在大家在討論包括這些跨國勞動力但是我還是講前提是怎麼樣不要影響國內的就業或者本國勞工的就業還有我們的這些相關的勞動條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5485.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5499.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好 我來跟你說為什麼這是許多人發現的啦除了你們勞動部有說要用到畢業的橋外生交通部今年2025年1月1號提出了這個觀光旅館業以及旅館業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5503.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5519.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
業者只要透過這個實習要點用外籍學生來台實習就可以規避掉勞動部的工作許可申請勞基法還有繁瑣的行政流程那你知道他自從開放這個要點1月1號至今有多少人申請嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5524.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5545.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
一千人所以現在觀光署那邊從這個外籍的實習生一千人喔然後再加上教育部原有的觀光類僑生建教合作專班已經69名所以你現在要解決這個人力的缺口是1069比上1顯然你的政策是不及格的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5551.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5567.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那當然很多業者他是反應說開放外籍實習生來台填補旅宿業的人力缺口他們覺得是一股活水可是非常久之計但可以補人力的不足但是人力問題其實沒有解決為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5568.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5582.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
因為交通部的這個方案大概是兩年那如果是一般的建交合作教育部的方案大概四年四年左右或是再長一點點但這並沒有辦法解決他們長期的人力缺口啊那另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5584.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5609.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這個假實習但是真工作明末向是為了建教合作但其實是讓學生做廉價的打工這是監察院以前糾舉過教育部的問題所以站在勞工的立場你是勞動部的大家長你有沒有辦法去明確的跟這些部門溝通工作模式到底實習跟工作的差別到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5611.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5632.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
跟委員說明確實現在這些實習生在這個實習場所裡面他們的狀況那當然需要從個案的事實去來做認定不過我想我們在這些申訴跟檢舉的管道也是暢通的那如果外界或學生有疑慮的話我們都可以來協助檢視就是他的他是否這個勞動的狀態其實我想勞動部都願意來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5635.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5653.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那你有沒有考慮找教育部、交通部來進行合作前往這些有申請實習的單位來進行勞檢的調查那個我跟倫說明確實現在關於實習的部分現在這個在主政的其實是教育部那 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5655.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5673.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那他的勞動場域但是我們也很樂意我們一直跟不管是教育部也好或者是僑友會或者是包括這些產業主管機關表達我們非常非常樂意跟大家一起討論如果大家在勞動狀態的認定上面是有疑義需要專業的協助的話我們都願意來做這部分的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5674.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5693.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
他們可能不會主動告訴你因為他們曾經被糾舉過我是問您願不願意主動出擊如果他們被糾舉有被檢舉那在個案上面我們是我們當然都會願意來協助來做小關的檢視那您剛提到的這些申訴的管道你要如何去下達到他們工作的場域呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5694.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5705.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們這部分我們可以讓大家知道其實我們就告訴各部會其實也讓大家知道或外界包括學生也好外界也好如果有疑慮的對工作狀態有疑慮的其實我覺得都可以來提出相關的申請或檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5706.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5735.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好下一個是剛您提到的低薪的問題這點你也非常理解嘛好那有些業者他雖然沒有辦法立即的做加薪但我舉個例子比如說很有名的雲品酒店他就把週休兩日改成週休三日因此他的員工留任率非常的高那我有注意到你們的勞動力發展署跟觀光署有合作啟動一個飯店業專案媒合計畫今天真的一直講到勞動力發展署啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5736.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5749.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個媒合計畫的執行率也是很差你們知道為什麼吧其實我想 其實媒合率應該媒合率是可以提高啦是有可以提高跟經濟的空間不過當然我們也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5751.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5773.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 我跟你說一下答案有66%經常性薪資未達2.8萬元85.84%未達3萬元表示這個勞務的負荷跟薪資不成正比的情況下你就很難媒合成功嘛還有 他還有一個性別差異男女平均薪資的差異甚鉅男性平均是4萬6599女性3萬6809 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5778.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5795.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那我們今年有個口號是千萬旅客觀光立國的目標現在勞動部長有沒有辦法藉由不管是人力的缺口或者是待遇的提高你有沒有辦法協助觀光署兩個部門一起去達到這個我們要達到觀光立國的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5797.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5820.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
跟委員說明確實現在在旅宿業的低薪勞工的比例比較高這個問題是我們在考慮跨國勞動力開放與否很核心在思考的命題也就是說我們很不希望這個跨國勞動力的開放造成在產業裡面的低薪低勞的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5821.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5847.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以這是為什麼我們認為這個政策在整體的考慮不是很簡單要開放就開放不是這樣在思考而是必須顧及到本土勞工本國勞工的薪資狀況會不會受到影響這是為什麼我們很審慎的原因這就是我們現在在政策在設計我們要去考慮的核心那我兩個月可以拿到書面報告嗎你打算怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5849.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5858.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我想我們現在持續的在研議也在持續的在評估或者是設計方案但是確實就是希望來去面對尤其是禮數院或者是服務院裡面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5861.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5880.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我們現在整體在這個政策的評估因為目前是還沒有設定特定的時間點沒有設定特定的時間點好最後一個問題這個是您二月曾經召開的記者會說面對勞檢員離職率居高不下而且每一年都有100多位的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5881.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5902.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
高壓 高危險 家計也非常的低所以要推出一個專案名字叫做勞動檢查員專業能力以及工作支持方案我想問這個工作支持方案是希望把他們的工作數位化 智慧化等等這個要分四年的時間來推動您這四年預計是花多少的經費來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5906.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5925.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
跟委員報告,大概我們這個這個方案基本上兩大面向,就是一個剛剛委員提到的是他在執法工具的資訊化、智慧化跟這個行動化,另外一部分是個人的專業的提升跟他的安全,個人的在執法上的一個安全維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5928.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5936.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我昨天6月3號才跟行政院求證你2月的時候開了一個這麼盛大的記者會行政院說勞動部至今還沒有呈報這項專案計畫對 這個部分是在我們部裡面的一個計畫這部裡面的一個專案的計畫所以你會呈報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5952.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5969.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
跟委員報告這個部分如果是我們把計畫呈報給部長這邊來核定基本上這個計畫就展開了所以你們有信心2026年就會開始跟委員報告其實已經經費在籌備已經有一個大概的經費因為我剛剛有問你這個經費打算 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5971.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5987.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
經費的部分基本上在公務跟基金我們還是要做一個分開依照它的用途那我們目前初估大概是前兩年大概是兩千多萬到三四年會花到三四年那你這個缺口你想要怎麼解決每年一百多人的缺口你希望每年可以縮短多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5993.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6022.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那個跟文說沒有 這部分會分兩個部分 一個是勞檢員人力這個員額的部分 剛才文其實後面講的應該是員額的部分不過我們這個計劃的本身其實是針對勞檢員本身他的資能包括他的裝備包括他的整個的支持的體系的提升所以這個計劃其實這個已經 某個部分已經正在進行中了那其實這個報導部裡面我們其實就可以來進行好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6026.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6049.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
好 我們謝謝陳金輝委員的資訊那我們請陳委員來代主席 謝謝好 那下一位我們請王玉民委員好 謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長 部長王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6054.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6081.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
部長好部長我要請教你關於公安的議題因為最近發生在嘉義的台積電的封測場他的施工發生了兩起重大的意外造成一死一重傷那這樣子的一個事件發生在這個我們護國神山台積電身上大家都覺得有點不可思議因為他是台灣的驕傲但是為什麼在嘉義廠竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6084.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6102.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
一連串的發生兩起這麼重大的公安意外那當時我也有告知這個勞動部一定要去詳查這個事故發生的原因第一個我要問的是請問現在對於事故發生的原因你們已經調查清楚了嗎你們進去進行勞檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6103.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6129.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
跟委員報告這兩個事件基本上在案發當時都已經有我們南區的中心的檢查人就到現場那基本上委員現在提到的在目前的法規都有規範很清楚應該是包商在執行上沒有按照法規的要求在處理那我們跟委員報告這兩件案件以後我們也在今天就在這個時候我們在這個園區的公務所裡面就召開把 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6131.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6143.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
台積電還有管理局以及所有組成包商的負責人主管都邀請起來召開檢討會議現在正在進行正在進行嘛所以檢討結果還沒出來同步現在進行第一個我要求這個檢討的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6147.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6163.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
要給本席這邊一份也給委員會因為畢竟這是指標性的個案我們想要知道如果連模範生他的這個施工廠都出問題那真正的問題到底是出現在哪裡另外一個我要請教你剛剛有提到南科管理局 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6164.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6190.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
他在當中他到底扮演什麼樣的角色因為今天又傳出另外一期他不只是有公安意外還有勞資糾紛那南科管理局就說勞資糾紛不關我的事這個是嘉義縣政府的事情那所以現在看起來在科學園區像以嘉義為例嘉義科學園區發生事情他有勞資糾紛他有公安意外他現在是不是隸屬不同的單位公安是屬於職安 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6192.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6208.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這邊所以是中央負責那南克管理局說這個有勞資就算這不關我的事那又是屬於嘉義縣政府那請問今天的這個會議嘉義縣政府有列席嗎他有出席嗎他的角色是什麼從這個事件我要探討的是三方的角色中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6209.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6218.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那個南科管理局跟嘉義縣政府這三個單位各自扮演什麼樣的角色如果說大家橫向是沒有一個聯繫機制的話那像這個整個出問題就是隸屬不同的單位那各自知道各自在負責事情嗎比如說他有這個勞資糾紛中央這個勞動部知道嗎你們會介入會去關心嗎因為都是同一個案子都是台積電的這個嘉義廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6237.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6262.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
跟委員報告 如果勞工因為相關的勞工權益的受損他可以跟地方勞工行政機關提起勞資正義的調解那如果只有調解 地方政府依照相關的法令會進行調解的一些協助幫勞工來解決這樣的紛爭如果連調解都不成立 他可以提起訴訟勞動部這邊就有相關的法律訴訟可以協助勞工透過訴訟的途徑來求求他權益的補償 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6263.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6291.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
但是嘉義科學園區他還有一個南科管理局南科管理在這件事情上又沒有角色跟委員報告調解可以他可以就近可以到南科管理局的勞資正義的處理也可以到嘉義縣政府兩個都可以但是南科管理局說他沒有他沒有角色他今天是在媒體上面他公開講的就是這個因為因為他是沒有沒有任何的角色可以介入他說嘉科園區的職業安全衛生業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6293.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6302.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
為授權南科管理局辦理然後這個是屬於職業安全衛生署南區職業安全衛生中心的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6304.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6328.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
根據我的報告,基本上勞檢授權的部分南科管理局沒有角色對不對?是你們?不是,因為現在這個家科是剛在整地,剛開始在開發所以這個階段的新建工程,我們認為中央要把關所以這個部分還沒有授權但是如果完工以後開始運作,就像竹科、中科、南科基本上的勞動檢查權是管理局 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6328.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6335.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
是管理局要的但是施工階段他沒有任何角色但是現在又出現了重大的公安意外我覺得這件事情你們要回過頭去檢討既然科學園區他是隸屬於這個南科管理局基本上他從頭到尾他要有角色因為整個案子的開發 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6345.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6372.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
核准什么都是他那你们只是负责公安的部分那既然他从头到尾负责这个部分为什么不要让他的角色一开始都可以加进来双重的监督不是对于这个整个的公安的这个监督会有更强化效果吗因为他在地你们南区你们是设在高雄吧你们还更远所以这件事情从这件事情我认为劳动部应该回过头去检讨这种比较特殊性的在科学园区的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6373.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6391.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
看起來這個老闆很多那要怎麼樣做會比較順暢是不是部長可以回去檢討一下我們願意來跟包括地方的老政單位包括這個科學園區的管理局那幾方之間的這個界面要來做一些整合的檢討我們願意來我邀請要檢討那檢討的結果再給本席第二個一樣是台積電台積電的熊本廠你們2022年有去考察這個你們考察之後有看到這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6403.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6425.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
熊本廠人家是怎麼做的你看他用紅色來標示是禁止綠色就是你可以走的通道黃色他是放置器材就是他的可視化的程度做得非常的好一樣是台積電喔這個是在日本的情況人家第一現場的公安是這樣子做的回到台灣我們有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6429.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6447.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我們有落實嗎我們所謂這個之前勞動部經濟在推動的可視化做了多少看起來就是沒有嘛所以其實你可以看到一樣是台積電它在日本的它的工地是這樣子的一個設置模式請問台積電再加一場它的現場同時多部的吊車在進行它的吊掛作業它的現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6454.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6469.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你們現場去勞檢他有這樣子嗎紅綠黃標示的這麼清楚然後有這麼清晰的SOP去進行嗎我想一定是沒有那在沒有的情況底下當然日本廠沒有出現重大公安台灣廠同時在施工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6473.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6492.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
就兩起重大公安事故這個就是我之前一再質詢也再提醒你們的就是說你們也認為這個可視化是一個很重要的考察報告裡面還提到安全可視化低成本高效益就是說這個的成效其實是非常好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6493.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6515.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
可以達到安全的效果可視化低成本高效益但是這麼好的一個典範台積電熊本廠他做得這麼好但是考察完之後回到台灣2022年到現在為什麼在台灣我們沒有辦法好好的來落實就是讓我們的工地現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6517.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6543.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
可以達到這樣的一個標準你真的覺得這個部長聽說你也剛去韓國考察完嘛對不對紀州島紀州島對他們的公安韓國跟台灣比起來你有沒有覺得人家在現場的SOP也做得很好我至少我個人去日本我只是路過我看到他們路邊有在做的你知道嗎他們人員的配置就是我對於這個周遭的交通的維持跟安全的維持我人員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6544.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6571.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好幾個人員穿著制服站在那邊指揮啊他拉出來的這個預防這個標掛作業墜落的他拉出來的空間範圍也很大這個就是人家日本他在重視公安這個部分他是從第一現場這個的SOP都做到位然後讓這個整個的安全可以被維護住反觀台灣我們常常用趕工為理由你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6572.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6588.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我現在也在想台積電會不會是因為之前有這個工程延宕就是因為那個有挖出這個考古的文物停工之後為了加工加快那個速度但是趕工之餘就忘記了公安 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6590.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6608.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這件事情我覺得不應該發生在台積電身上我想其實剛剛很謝謝委員那其實日本確實他們在很多的這個營建的工程裡面其實他們都是有用這個高於法規的做法在進行那我想我們也會來這個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6610.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6637.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個他們在日本的做法其實來強化其實對於臺灣廠商的要求那的確其實在臺灣的營造業我們認為在其實公安或環安衛的做法上面其實是有很大可以改進的空間所以我們其實現在也跟職安署在很密切的在檢討我們目前在這個職安環安衛相關的政策跟機制我希望接下來其實可以提出一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6638.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6652.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
比較大的這個機制上面的改革好我希望你們要提出來因為現在就你們那個職業安全衛生設施規則你的第92條第一項或者是90條第91條你這裡面譬如說針對這個吊掛物你只有就是一個原則就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6661.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6675.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
因于运转时采取防止吊挂物通过人员之上方及人员进入吊挂物下方之设备或设施你就是一个原则性的宣示但是你看看日本它发展出来的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6676.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6695.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
他這樣子的一個紅綠黃就是各有各自的意義在現場那個SOP就非常清楚但是在我們台灣我們其實就是用一個宣示就是你要設備或設施那是什麼設備跟設施也沒有規範所以坦白講你們到現場勞檢的時候你根本沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6696.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6719.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
非常明確的SOP可勞檢比如說人員你也沒有要求他現場就是要什麼樣的人員維護只要有人在一個人也是人兩個人也是人就是你並沒有一個更細膩的規範但是我真的覺得這個可視化的這個不會耗費非常多的成本但是你真的兩個圖一比較你就知道日本為什麼公安可以做得好 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6720.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6746.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
魔鬼藏在細節裡啊就是他可以這麼的細膩這麼的清楚所以你一個工人不管今天有沒有拚外籍移工我進到這個現場我告訴你紅色就是禁止進入的區域綠色才是通道黃色就是堆滿器材的地方這個就是非常的直觀你不用做非常多的教育你現場你馬上你就知道趨吉避凶啊紅色就是不會靠近 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6747.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6770.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以這一套我認為這一個勞動部部長你竟然說你們要好好研討日本這個好的做法我希望2022已經考察到現在了但是在台灣都沒有實施我們應該要想辦法跟業者溝通這個是保護他們也是保護工人也是讓台灣的公安更落實這個是不花成本的大家應該要全力的來推動好沒問題謝謝好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6776.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6781.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
好 謝謝王宇民委員謝謝部長 那繼續請邱政軍委員質詢主席好 我們請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6799.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6805.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
邱委員好部長好部長我想請問你根據主計總數的統計我們2024年中央及地方政府的潛藏負債達到20兆6490億元其中勞保潛藏負債佔最大中有13兆6466億 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6825.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6852.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那我要這樣講 勞工朋友每個月在繳保費就像定期的把錢丟進一個存錢筒那說想說等老了之後呢可以領回來過日子但現在這個存錢筒破了一個大洞政府每年拿稅金去補連補了八年已經到今年已經快四千億了 還是補不完那我想問部長 這個是不是該修理一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6854.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6872.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
還是要等到水都漏光了我們才開始修我想其實勞保財務的問題政府態度一直很清楚就是政府會負最後的責任你要怎麼負責任當然現在其實我們有很多不同的做法其實都是希望盡力在維持基金的水位你的錢要從哪裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6873.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6898.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
包括我們這幾年其實在這個投資上面其實也效益是不錯的那撥補當然其實也是其中一個那其實我們有一些其他的做法希望再盡力的去拉升這個基金的水位你講到撥補撥補就像我們在一個破洞的這個容器裡面一直加水你認為一直加一直補水一直漏這樣有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6899.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6927.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
其實撥補這幾年確實是達到一定維持基金水位的那以後呢你這個撥補總不能說變成一個永遠都用撥補的狀態吧你的政策不改嗎我們並不是要說一定要永遠的撥補可是撥補確實在那你現在除了撥補之外你還有沒有其他的想法想一些還更具體的做我想其實這幾年在基金的投資上面的效果是蠻好的那我包括我們也透過各種其他在包括剛剛講到說我們在鼓勵這個中高齡高齡者的就業跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6929.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6951.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
投入這個勞保那也包括其實我們在講話納保跟肌膚的審查我們總統當然也講過啦只要政府在勞保就不會倒那我在想我看到那個我們總統會的院長他說新財化法就會影響撥補的金額那個做法是不是在就跟總統的立場不一樣啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6954.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6977.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
並沒有衝突 我想其實政府在沒有錢怎麼補啊 我們的態度就是政府在你 你就沒有錢啊 那你要怎麼補不是沒有錢 是確實是會有影響所以這是為什麼我們認為現在這個新修的財化法它在分配上面是有很大的意義的對 這也是行政不斷的在緊張 我現在講的問題就是說不管財化法或者是其他原因那它有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6978.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6997.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
未來都是會發生的啦你不能說等到發生了你再來解決再來想說要怎麼樣解決這個問題我現在講的意思是這個我希望部長你是部長這是為什麼我們之前對於這個新修的財務法一直在表達其實真的要非常的非常的謹慎甚至他可能會有政府當然會負責嘛政府會負責那你說政府負責可是錢從哪裡來你要從稅徵收 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7004.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7020.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
還是去借那未來是誰還是我們的年輕人來去未來的年輕人去償還這些嗎對不對這一代的事情是不是應該在這一代來解決另外你說基金基金當然這10年來這個平均粉絲面可是還是逆差 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7021.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7043.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
制度本身這個還是逆差只是你不改革只是想靠投資來彌補年金的虧損你覺得這個是一個長久之計嗎我這樣跟你說明執政團隊的政府的立場當然就是政府會對勞保負最終的責任但我們也很希望國會可以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7046.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7065.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
國會支持我們來確保中央政府相關的台政的狀況國會支持是一件事情不是說一直拿我們納稅人的錢去補啊你懂我意思嗎國會當然支持只要你有新的做法我們當然會支持可是如果你只是一直要挖錢來補這個洞你認為這是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7070.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7088.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這文說明其實撥補這當然是現在是有助於維持勞保基金水位的一個現在是有效的做法所以這部分當然也是政府表達我們負責任態度其中的重要的做法之一我就跟你講了撥補不是長久之計 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7089.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7104.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
對不對 你已經補了四千億了 八年了那你還要補多久像你剛剛 你講說基金這幾年有賺錢那基金賺錢不代表夠用啊你去年在那個有一個補了 我看一下你去年賺多少錢你基金賺多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7119.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7147.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
去年賺了1629億那你今年一到四月你就虧了多少錢你就虧了快兩千億啊對不對你怎麼補呢老保是300我說基金基金賺了一千多億沒錯啊可是你今年一到四月你就虧了快兩千億啊不是不是不是1990億不是那是八個基金加起來八個基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7149.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7159.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
相信兩千億是八個基金 八個基金加起來那 勞保基金是三百 虧三百對啊 你還是不夠啊我認為這個都是不穩定的 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7162.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7183.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們當然都盡力用各種方式去維持基金的水位你一直當然投資是一個來償還然後又用撥補然後又說你們會負責任那我現在要的是部長你是主管單位嘛對不對那你有沒有更具體的做法你有沒有想過你想要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7185.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7207.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我想我們其實就是用各種方式那包括多元開源的方式那剛剛也講到說其實我們也希望鼓勵更多中高齡或高齡者來回到職場那甚至加入投保那都希望透過這種方式來多挹注一些基金的水位跟開源你說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7208.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7228.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
你剛才再講一下我說我們現在政策上面其實也在鼓勵中高齡或高齡者的重返職場如果有更多的高齡者重返職場然後其實也投入勞保的話那我想都有機會他之前投的就快領不太到了你又快倒了你又叫他回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7230.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7250.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
就是兩件事吧我們不能用你這個想法如果這樣想法那大家都不要那這其實可能對勞保的財務來說會更嚴峻啊對啊所以我們當然是希望在這裡面有更多的開源的做法然後更多種可以提高效益的做法這當然是去維持基金財務的一個態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7252.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7272.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
所以並不是說現在基金怎樣所以大家就不要來投保那是反而保持基金更大的財務上面的威脅你除了這個你還有沒有更具體的呢有沒有想過有沒有想過要解決這個問題我們就是希望透過這些多元的做法來去做維持你覺得夠嗎 這些做法夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7273.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7301.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
當然都可以再有更精進的空間可是目前我們其實就是希望這些方法那這些方法在這幾年其實對水位確實是有幫助的阿然後呢但是我覺得這樣子你只是延緩它破產對不對目前是這些做法是有延緩你這些做法只是延緩那我現在是要的是要有一個根本的有一個想有一個新的做法阿你部長你沒有想過這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7304.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7329.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
你沒有討論過 我想我們各種問題 我想我們各種方法其實都那你什麼時候 不然這樣啦 你要多久時間寫一個這個你的初步的一個想法給我我覺得 我可以 我們可以再做更多的討論喔甚至在這邊交換意見 不要討論不要討論只變成一個儀式嘛 那個然後又不了了之 然後又再演繹 這有什麼意義呢對不對 你是不是有一個具體的做法 我給你三個月時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7332.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7351.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
你寫一個方向我們當然要提供給委員一些接下來維持基金所要的做法我們可以提供好 謝謝部長好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢那在蘇清泉委員質詢完後休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7361.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7381.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
謝謝主席 請洪部長部長好 辛苦了那昨天剛公布的勞保勞退的基金的績效在2025年的4月 單月我們勞退基金虧損高達多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7384.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7407.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
勞動基金,對,勞退,1300億左右嘛,對不對,不過這些都是未實現的,是我懂,那平均每位的勞工帳面的虧損就是達到一萬大概一百零三元,不太能夠這樣算,它是未實現的,你先讓我講完嘛,我當然知道是未實現的嘛,這就是短期的部分嘛,但是我再論述一個道理, |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7408.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7428.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那另外上次三月數據出爐的時候其實我也有問過有關於投資美金的這個計價部位匯損的問題喔那那個時候是30塊左右匯率那現在掉了大概又變成29塊喔所以等於又有4%出現喔所以我就想問說喔雖然它是未實現的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7428.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7440.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你們在這個部分的管理和風險機制怎麼樣可以避免這樣子的虧損或者是這樣子的狀況會侵蝕到勞工對於這個基金的信心你們有什麼相關的這個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7442.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7462.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
報告委員,美元其實它有一個長期的軍事,那我們透過多元的一個策略,因為我們的資產有不同的配置,我們包括國內的股票、國外的債券都有。那你們現在有評估現在目前的匯率一直這樣子衝擊下去,今年大約會衝擊多少嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7467.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7482.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
委員報告委員確實匯率會影響我們帳面短期上的收益但是跟委員報告這個因為我們長期這個美元的匯價其實是相對穩定的我們也做過研究就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7483.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7499.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
你現在是相對穩定,可是其實這一年以來已經掉了很多啊所以短期的衝擊的確是嘛,短期的確有衝擊嘛那你們有沒有去做一個相關的評估風險的避免有,一定會有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7501.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7521.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那剛剛問的是短期的部分因為目前今年到4月份應該已經顯示高達的大概損失大概是1990億左右那整體收益率大概是負2.9%那這樣子波動劇烈那剛剛也有提到報告內容有提到說現在的勞工保險基金累存的餘額截至113年12月是1兆919億 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7526.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7532.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
那想要請問到目前4月底的時候這個累存餘額有多少有沒有跌破1兆沒有1兆994億 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7536.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7552.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
依照994議事到目前為止嘛到4月底好那那麼就是說部長依照這個目前4月份的勞保基金的會計報表數據這個兌換的這個短處大概就是272億5000萬左右那我們現在擔心的就是說這個股匯雙殺會不會也反映在這個基金的數據上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7560.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7570.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那現在的保底機制也就是保證收益的這個機制啊在極端市場波動的時候有沒有足夠可以保障我們勞工實質的這個權益退休的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7574.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7599.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
短期的波動是會受影響但是如果我們因為我們都是中長期的投資事實上如果長期來看不管是5年的平均或者10年的平均我們不管是勞保或者整個勞動基金報酬率會超過6%以上最近這幾年是都不錯可是你也知道這股市不可能是這樣子一直這樣下去那你們近期雖然短期有這個虧損但你們有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7599.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7617.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
去預設假設你長期或是這一年這兩年都不好的情況之下那你們會這個部分會不會去做什麼機制的調整報告委員舉例來講就是說你們會不會因為這樣子的長期的收益會你們會考慮去調低所謂的保證收益的利率 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7618.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7637.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
不會應該保證收益率不會好謝謝我就是想要問這個答案因為我們擔心我們擔心因為長期虧損的話發生了這樣的事情大家都會擔心不會這個部分不會謝謝所以你有這樣的信心的宣示我覺得很好但是在這個舊勞保基金的部分其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7638.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7648.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
老保於2017年首次出現,短處大概275.38億那之後每一年的短差大概是252億然後再228億、486億、288億然後2022年的時候是386億到2023年的時候擴大到446億到2024年又擴大到655億創立歷年的新高 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7662.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7686.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以我就說了剛剛講下來這個邏輯是這樣那為什麼現在還沒有破產其中一大原因當然就是政府的撥補對不對然後剛剛也有提到的因為最近另外一個原因是就是這個基金的部分其實是有賺錢績效還不錯這個部分我本席也給予肯定那另外一個大原因就是剛剛說的這個部分那你們2019年到2023年的平均報酬大概是7.51% |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7687.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7702.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那其實我們都很樂見啦就是剛剛講的概念就是我們當然都很樂見我們的基金投資都有賺錢然後或者是這個收益率都很不錯可是我覺得這個終究是有一個上限啦你不可能天天都在賺錢嘛對不對你不可能每一年長期都在賺錢嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7704.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7725.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以也很可以顯而易見的說在長期上來看要蓋過這個基金的缺口要靠這個投資是不太可能的不太可能而且尤其是今年這個國際局勢的動盪金融市場的動盪也很可能今年會是收益率近年來的第一次是負的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7727.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7741.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
所以簡單來講目前為止您剛剛部長有提到我們目前為止這個基金之所以還沒有破產你也說這個基金有賺錢這件事情延後了可是其實我們可以看到勞保的精算負債 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7743.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7756.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這個數值基本上是反映了我們勞工保險制度未來需要支付的總額嘛對不對那目前為止我們的勞保精算的負債是用前所未見每一年超過一兆元的速度迅速的增長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7758.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7777.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
迅速的增長那這三年間金額已經從11兆500億左右攀升到14兆1000億足足增加了3兆那按照這個膨脹的速度其實這個精算的負債會在5到10年內會超過我們全國國內的生產毛額所以這麼大的缺口其實現在也是為什麼大家這麼緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7778.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7805.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以不是說單單靠就是說我每一年找個錢或想辦法去撥補就可以讓大家安心的所以這就是我們今天整個邏輯順下來要講的政府負最終的支付責任這件事情是我想要問的因為我們當然很多委員也都已經有提修法我還是想問我們部長的態度究竟是什麼因為剛剛前面的邏輯講了這麼多部長你到底知不知恥有入法沒入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7806.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7830.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
目前政府的政策的態度就是政府是負最終責任的這是態度但是你沒有入法的話這個沒有辦法讓百姓安心我是希望說這個部分部長是不是可以清楚一點表態當然還有很多相關的配套必須做可是我覺得第一步要讓百姓安心讓民眾安心讓勞工安心這件事情是不是我們身為勞動部長應該要來給大家一個承諾和具體的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7830.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7850.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們的政策就是這樣子那再來是說現在其實當然有我們看到很多委員的提案對於這些提案我想我們都是尊重那就整體的行政團隊來說我們認為這個部分是我們是持開放的態度那也覺得有討論和研議的空間那請問你們要接下來具體要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7852.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7871.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
所謂開放跟演繹的空間因為我們還是很希望部長可以表態說我們其實是支持的但是你可能要有一些配套必須去去釐清我當然支持政府負最終責任的事情這個事情現在還在做我當然支持政府負最終責任這件事情入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7872.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7899.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
對不對你支持這個概念就算不入法我也支持對那所以代表您支持入法嗎很好我覺得副部長願意這樣講的話我想因為你剛剛其實這樣聽起來大概有說有入法沒入法我們都是這樣做所以我當然是支持政府要負最終責任這個概念好我希望可以給勞工一個安心我們也希望讓勞工可以安心那再來我就要再問另外一題了剛剛這個答案OK我覺得你算是公開表態支持入法這件事我是支持政府負擔責任這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7901.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7922.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
支持政府付起財務的最終責任這件事情因為我剛剛邏輯已經講很清楚了那這一題先到這裡那我另外要跟你講一個是無薪假的來襲那要怎麼保障我們這個勞工子女的權益那目前為止共155家企業2830億人實施減班休息也就是所謂的無薪假 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7923.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7935.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那其中因為美國關稅政策而實施無薪假的企業大概是20家然後827人其實較前一期統計大概是倍增這基本上是倍增所以反映現在開始對於就業市場的衝擊開始擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7939.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7959.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那為了減輕這種非自願離職失業勞工子女的就學負擔勞動部本來有一個東西叫做失業勞工子女就學補助嘛那這部分是本來就已經有的那他是針對非自願離職失業勞工子女就讀這個高中職級大專校大專院校的人提供就學補助這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7960.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7972.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那補助金額是從四千到兩萬元不等但因為這次的衝擊其實這個東西它並沒有針對所謂被迫放無薪假的這種勞工的子女有就學補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7973.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7993.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以接下來因為這一波的關稅衝擊我覺得可能越來越大那應該是不是應該要提早引引因為下一個學期即將是在9月開學那本席是擔心放無薪假的勞工家庭他們子女的就學會不會也因此受到影響好那所以請問部長這部分可不可以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7994.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8011.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
貴婦回去研議這部分是不是可以去擴大因為基本上就是同一個計畫但是擴大到所謂的無薪假的家庭這部分的適用範圍可不可以譬如說將被迫放無薪假的兩個月以上的勞工或是他的其子女可不可以放入這個補助的範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8015.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8034.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我還是想要說明其實就台灣的制度來說我們其實是減班休息因為有時候無薪假講久了真的會有一些勞工以為他可以真的無薪有的時候有些勞工在聽到無薪假聽久他真的以為會無薪這反而會影響他的他對自己權益的認知第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8038.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8053.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
其實現在針對放減班休息的勞工我們當然現在是有公安令措施跟充電債出發可以去可以去補貼他在薪資上面收入的差距跟損失我想透過這個方式那剛剛委員在講的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8054.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8072.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
子女的這個就學的這個部分的補貼我想這是不同的政策不過我們大家可以綜合做一些考慮可是我想但是對於他經濟性支持的做法對經濟性支持的做法目前主要我們還是設計是透過包括這個顧安定措施部長希望您可不可以回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8072.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8095.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
就是去結束演繹這個部分就是他子女的部分剛剛你有講過充電再出發等等的其實之前我有提到因為你現在看到他已經翻倍了嘛他其實如果一直不斷的這樣下去其實會充電更快我們有密切的在監測員關注他的這個目前的狀況我之前有提到包含什麼安心即時上工啊等等的齁但是我今天講的就是欸其實你們既然原本有這個計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8095.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8113.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
你有沒有試著去演繹擴大它的範圍到現在所謂的這個減班休息或者是你說無薪假因為被迫放無薪假的這樣子的家庭的子女的補助就學的補助的方案我想要請部長這邊是不是可以去盤點然後去了解一下這樣子會不會對他們受到衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8114.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8128.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我想我們可以來綜合的研議怎麼樣來幫助這個減班休息的勞工可以有更多的協助我們綜合來研可能也不是只是這個部分因為這確實是不同的情況那請問大概要多久一個月可以嗎因為我看他這樣翻倍的速度很快喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8129.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8153.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
他衝擊來的會很快喔你們是不是可以盡速我們會 我們在我們在一個月好不好一個月我們一個月的時間怎麼樣可以讓減班休息的勞工可以有更多各種方面的支持沒錯請各種方面的支持然後還有包含這個所謂包括權益上面包括權益上面的協助好 謝謝那一個月內給本席辦公室一個這個研議的方向和報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8156.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8162.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長那來 接續請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝 主席我們請部長要請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8186.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8201.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我接續我們這個廖委員講的就是因應這個關稅的問題那減班休息確實這個問題陸陸續續呈現那我記得在四月份的時候那時候卓院長還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8203.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8217.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這個我們經濟部相關當時部長也有特別提到一些因應措施那我看到就是說在四月份的時候減班休息的人數好像也沒有就是還沒有呈現出來因為當時還有一些急單 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8219.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8229.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
當時對於這個美國的這個如果是對外出口的話這些廠家可能還有一些急單要做那到5月份的時候陸陸續續有這樣的一個減班休息的問題出現了那剛剛這個廖委員也有特別提到那我想再一次的問一下就是我們部長針對這個因應關稅的這個議題你當時在4月份這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8244.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8272.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
卓院长开记者会的时候你有特别提到一些因应措施吗那现在问题确实是出现了那是不是也请劳发署这边我看到也是非常认真就是有到就是有去做一些访试那提出一些问题那我想请教我们劳动部这边针对这一部分你们除了就是有这个充电在出发的这个训练计划之外那是不是还有其他的这个因应方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8273.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8302.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
其實現在當然針對減半休息的部分幾個最主要的當然一個是充電車出發另外是規模安定措施那規模安定措施現在它的範圍是不是要來做產業上面的擴大我們有把機制給重新做了一個檢討跟設定那的確現在針對什麼時候這個包括它的範圍產業的範圍要擴大這部分我們會來跟經濟部來做研討那也就是說如果確實看到減半休息的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8304.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8320.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
接下來有繼續的擴大的話那我們會是時候就來把這個公安令措施該擴大的範圍就幫助的範圍趕快來把它這個範疇給擴大希望能夠來支持到更多的勞工我們希望說這個時程可能要再加快一點因為也許 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8322.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8335.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
在這個7月份如果確定關稅確定之後我覺得這個影響可能會更大而且那個是會非常急速的所以我們希望就是勞動部針對這部分可能還要再加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8339.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8367.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
跟還有另外也再跟委員補充就剛才在講到說其實我們也在做了一些檢查因為過去基本上是要這個企業自己來申請所以企業本身對這件事情的意願看起來就會變成是勞工能不能得到勞工部或者是我們勞發署協助的一個關鍵可是如果企業來申請這個他沒有來申請就影響勞工的權益所以我們現在也開放是讓勞工可以自己來申請甚至我們會主動的來聯絡勞工讓他知道你有這個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8369.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8385.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
你們怎麼主動聯絡因為現在我們其實有修訂了這些相關的這個協議書的要點那勞工朋友他會提供給他的聯絡資訊其實給地方政府所以我們也會拿到這個勞工聯絡資訊以後來主動聯繫說其實你可以來申請那如果來申請的話來參與我們這個分署內的相關的訓練的計畫的話可以拿到這個訓練的津貼可以對於你的這個收入上面的減損會有一些幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8398.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8421.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那我們希望說這個可能時程可能再加快因為到7月我覺得那個時程應該是到7月可能這個減班休息的加速可能會越來越多我們密切的在監測中那剛剛也有特別針對這個勞動基金的這個部分我想請教就是說大家都非常的關心然後因為這個關心到 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8423.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8441.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
一千多萬這個勞工的這個退休的這個基金那我想請教部長因為在去年的時候我們看到這個勞動基金是收益是有賺錢的那今年一到四月份是整個虧損那當然就是說投資有賺有賠不一定都是賺錢當然就是我們要讓這個虧損這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8447.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8452.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
能夠降低我想請教部長就是說很多人會覺得在四月份因為關稅的議題所以整個股會市這個很慘這個大家都可以理解那另外一個有人說這個我們的勞動基金我們的這些基金是不是用到去護盤我不知道說我們部長你針對這一部分是不是有什麼樣的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8474.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8493.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我想我還是要再說一次,我們絕對沒有拿這個勞動基金去護盤喔報告委員,我們基金運用局在做各項的投資運用都本於專業來做我們沒有義務去護盤,我們也沒有去護盤,我們大概就是根據市場的情況然後來進行佈局,我們沒有護盤的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8498.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8527.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好那當然就是這個是所有勞工關心的議題另外就是說剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說這個勞保勞保基金這個關心到每一個退休的勞工那大家也會擔心那剛剛部長有特別提到就是說勞動部政府是負最終的這個責任那我也認同就是說因為很多勞工會擔心那當然就是說政府因為有這麼多的這個勞工朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8527.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8548.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
他就是加入這個勞保那如果說連勞保都倒了這個國家也差不多了啦所以當然政府要負最終的責任這一點我是認同入不入法這個我覺得這個可以討論那政府就是要負最終的責任因為這個影響到一千兩百多萬人所以這個真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8549.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8572.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
非同小可全台灣才2300多萬人那這個就一半的人口都是加入我們的勞保所以真的我們當然剛剛部長也有特別提到我們就是政府就是負最終的責任就是很堅定的就是這樣說那另外一個議題我想請教就是說也是因為因應關稅的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8574.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8591.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那會受到影響勞力密集的這個產業可能會受到這個關稅的議題影響比較大那其中一個可能就是觀光業我想請教就是說之前有很多人在希望就是說這個觀光旅宿業能夠開放外籍移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8592.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8620.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那當然就是說我們希望這個觀光旅宿業是要把自己的這個勞動環境做好之後那確實沒辦法有台灣的這個勞工投入我們才來考慮是不是要有這個外籍義工那當然我們看到一個資料我也希望就是說部長可能要關心一下就是勞動部在5月底有公布就是職類別薪資的一個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8622.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8641.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那住宿業房務員 就是我們這個旅宿業的這個房務員的這個薪資去年是平均30,941元那跟去年 跟前一年相比的話這個差不多調漲了 加薪了差不多695元 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8644.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8662.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
為什麼這個呃旅宿業或者是我們的這個住宿住宿呃旅宿這麼呃這麼多這個台灣的這個勞工不願意投入一方面可能整個工作環境也不是那麼好再來就是薪資其實也不高然後所以我們希望就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8663.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8689.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
今天如果要開放這個外籍移工的話第一個應該也要去考慮到是不是這些旅宿業這樣的一個觀光業是不是有將這個勞動的環境已經有提升了那薪資是不是有提升到一般的水準了那我們再來考慮那真的就招不到我們本級的勞工之外再來考慮是不是要開放外籍根本說明確實在旅宿業 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8691.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8720.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
其實目前他這個低薪勞工的比例確實是比較高那這個點的確也是我們一直在評估呂樹葉的跨國勞動力的開放問題裡面一個很核心的在思考的一個問題所以的確我們也希望接下來如果這個關於我們跨國勞動力的整體的政策在檢討的過程裡面我們第一個都是希望他不要對本國勞工的就業機會產生影響甚至我們都希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8721.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8747.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
未來是否有可能可以讓這些跨國勞動力的政策對於本國勞工的勞動條件尤其是薪資可以帶來正面的幫助我們也在往這個角度做可能性的思考跟探尋所以就像剛剛委員說的我們不會這個一味的或者是好像就覺得如果只是有缺人我就開放我覺得倒不是這樣我們會整體思考包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8749.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8763.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
外國的勞工他的就業的環境包括本國勞工的這個相關勞動的權益我想這邊整體的思考那我們的這個政策的檢討也不是針對旅宿業也會是整體的這個產業我們都會來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8767.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8791.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
進一步的評估那當然接下來如果評估有相關的結論我們也會盡快的來跟社會各界來去做說明好因為我為什麼會提出這樣就是說你們自己在5月底有做這樣的一個職類別的薪資調查那昨天那個證交所也公布2024年上市公司員工薪資的資訊那這個平均薪資最低的前10家公司中 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8792.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8809.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
就是大部分都是觀光餐飲傳統產業所以觀光跟餐飲業也許就是我們說可能就是整個工作環境或者是薪資不是那麼好所以本國勞工不太願意投入所以我才會講說未來可能就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8810.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8824.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
希望這些連上市公司如果自己這個薪資都沒辦法這個跟其他的產業來相比的話那當然台灣的勞工不願意投入這樣的一個市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8826.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8849.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
確實在觀光業旅宿業觀光包括或者是一些服務業這些服務業的他的產業的特性跟他的勞動條件的狀態其實我們的確看到他是有跟製造業有不同的地方這也是為什麼我們覺得這部分的這個跨國勞動力的開放的問題必須有更多層面的評估跟思考的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8851.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8875.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我是看到連上市公司也觀光或者餐飲這樣子薪資也是蠻低的所以我才會希望部長你們在考慮引進外籍移工的時候就是整體產業的工作環境是不是確實薪資已經有調到跟一般的水準了 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8876.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8903.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那我們再來考慮那確實就找不到我們本級的勞工那來開跟我們說明我們還會但除了這個跨國勞工業政策以外其實我們也希望比方說在薪資的透明化或者是我們也在思考更大程度的資訊的揭露來對於我們這些可能相對低薪勞工的比例比較高的產業能夠有更大的薪資提升的效果所以目前我們也在思考這樣子的相關的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8904.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8914.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
好謝謝我們希望就是說能夠讓勞工能夠有一個好的一個工作環境謝謝黃秀剛委員謝謝黃部長那有請蘇清玄委員好謝謝主席那請部長還有黃署長還有蘇局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8932.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8935.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
蘇委好部長好 部長辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8938.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8964.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我現在要肯定一下我們勞動力發展署我們上上上就是這幾天我們去看中區看還有高屏那個那個分署勞動力發展署分署欸 做得很好耶做得很好中區啊 隔壁啊對地方的產業需要的人不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8966.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8990.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
產業類,譬如說高雄那些都貼純的,還是說機械的那中區的話都是精密機械啊等等啊那都有分,而且還有宿舍,那老師都非常投入我看結論一個就是那些老師的薪水可能要更加多一點啦我今天打不掉齁,啊第二,裡面的機器 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8992.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9001.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
有人捐的 有人去討的 有人去求的 有人去買的要寬烈經費 那個要與時俱進就是買新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9003.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9025.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
可以啦我很謝謝這段時間為華為委員會仿視我們中分署、高分署、逃分署仿視我們很多分署然後給我們相關的肯定我想這對我們同仁也有很多這個信心上面的提升對啦 就像是發生事情之後低迷我們也是要去鼓勵他們那真的是 欸 那是你們勞動部的亮點 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9027.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9042.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
真的是亮點,不然的話不知道什麼何無為在跟你們說所以我再一次跟他肯定黃署長加油第二個我要問的,蘇局長還有我們部長今年為什麼會虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9048.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9071.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
市長 今年因為4月美國宣布關稅措施所以整個市場動盪的情形很劇烈以台股來看 到今年的4月底我們台股就跌了超過12%美國以跟我們關係最密切的費辦指數來看也超過15%事實上對我們造成非常大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9073.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9098.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
因為這個都是屬於平價的損失並沒有實現你們沒有賣掉啦我們會有操作實現利益然後我們這個是目前是帳上未實現的損失所以最主要是關稅川普喊出來之後他感冒結果我們都得肺炎 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9101.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9109.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
再來我們要住ICU他亂喊一通我們就死翹翹會不會再回來 應該可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9111.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9130.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
市場其實是一直在波動但是有往上有往下那我們覺得我們投資都是看長期基本面我們基金的運作都是以穩健的方式來進行那我要問部長兩個第一個是關稅如果真的調到10到15% |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9132.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9147.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們的產業包括精密機械都受不了喔他們是真的會受不了那個時候會有人失業喔第二個台幣如果升值現在已經30塊了嘛32變30如果到28越死捏連台積電工業也斷不了捏那這邊呢確實最近這個這個國際上面的經貿的情境的變數很多啦齁所以我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9162.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9181.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
跟跟文說明我們其實也會為各種可能的情境尤其是會為比較嚴峻的情境去預作準備那這也是為什麼我們其實行政院其實也有這個特別條例裡面其實有編列了大概150億那來給勞動部那來作為這個安定就業的支持的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9181.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9207.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那可是如果這150億如果到時候真的整體經貿的情境不好那有需要更多我想我們也還有救保或者是救安的基金可以一起綜合的來運用對那這部分都是我們要來來支持相關的勞工所以不管是剛剛講減班休息或可能假設會有出現失業的狀況那我們其實也擬定其實相關的計劃要來支持對 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9207.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9218.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
好 那再來我就問你這個勞保的匯率從30年前我們那個匯率都是6點多那後來健保 因為我這一段我都經歷醫院就 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9224.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9243.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
醫療 本來勞保那6點多%裡面還含醫療那後來醫療切出去之後他還是維持6點多%嘛那醫療的4% 4.5%這樣慢慢增加是健保署的那現在一直增加 增加到已經11%了嘛現在匯率是11%嘛 對不對11 11.5那11.5是不夠的嘛你們的理想是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9255.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9281.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
跟委員報告依照最新的精算就是未來服務成本是17.19%多少17.1917.19是你的理想所以我們在醫學上叫期望值這樣公司還要受得了嗎確實是我們要考量到目前最高上限就是12% |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9283.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9302.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
所以你現在顯然不足所以每一年都用撥補 撥補 撥補是這樣嗎各位報告 其實我們勞保是社會保險他的財務本來就是財的是部分提成準備我們不會弄到平衡的費率主要是要照顧勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9303.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9330.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
所以我們都是沒有達到平衡事實上你那個匯率勞工本身付的差不多20%而已嘛是是那其他都是僱主在付嘛僱主是付80%嘛70%然後10%是政府政府付就跟健保一樣嘛差不多嘛那所以你現在每一年都撥補當然對年輕的人他們會認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9333.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9344.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
世代不正義嘛你以前的老人家每年都不會死每年往到八十歲九十歲一百歲現在年輕人每年九十歲現在的小孩越來越少小孩越來越少的負擔就越來越大不然你怎麼死就這樣那要怎麼做這個跟委員說明這當然是長期以來其實在大家在討論勞保財務裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9361.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9383.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這個很重要的問題那不過的確現在當然外界過去其實也有過提議說是不是要提高費率或者是要減少給付但不管是提高費率或減少給付這對於即時勞工的權益的影響其實都蠻大的所以我們其實都是用很審慎的態度在看待這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9384.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9398.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
因為我在鄉下,看病人什麼都好,很多我們的老公的朋友退休後,娘的錢都幾千塊而已,一萬塊以下很少,這一萬塊以下實在是不夠生活費啦, |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9401.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9417.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你老實說基本生活的1萬6萬嘛就平常很多要查到說一成有一成是少於1萬塊的那這些人將來你有沒有想把他們提高還是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9423.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9445.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
跟我的說明這當然是就是像我們剛才說目前其實這個在開源節流的概念因為目前確實財務我們不會說財務沒有問題可是在要進行開源節流的時候其實大家都想那我要怎麼減少給付可是減少給付會影響勞工的權益所以這的確是一個很大的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9446.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9473.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
所以這也是為什麼其實我們才會一直在想說有沒有可能有一些另外的財政的財源的來源才會有像波普這樣子的想法或者是說我們也希望我們在基金的投資的效益可以做到更好所以才會在這個想法下面不然的確這個議題我想不管各黨來說都是一個非常大的挑戰誰執政誰都要面對啦所以我今天講的重點第一個是錢嘛一些收入很少的你應該給他加一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9474.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9495.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
畢竟是你們要照顧第二是人年輕人越來越少小孩子越來越少這個馬上要面對的那對年輕人他們要繳更多的稅來撥補來幹嘛這個也要好好的配套那第三個就是你們投資的效率你的效率書記長你說你很年輕你怎麼樣怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9496.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9522.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我也要勤奮,但是要了解就是要了解,因為創侯探期,這更重要短期是有一些虧損,但是其實我們經營局這幾年其實整體的效益是很穩健地在成長的新加坡淡馬市我有去查,我有認識的朋友在那邊他們每一年的低獲利的都有6%高獲利的有12%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9523.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9531.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
所以這個是也可以參考一下 董事長你借的你就要好好想要怎麼判刑 好不好大家加油啦 好 謝謝謝謝蘇委員那我們休息十分鐘 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10215.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10223.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會我們中午不休息 把它趕完那要肚子餓的就先發便當啦來 我們請麥一貞委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10242.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10245.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
謝謝主席有請勞動部部長辦人好 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10255.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10275.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
部長好部長上次總執行的時候我針對外籍實習生和僑生打工勞動權的執行你卻一直說僑生是歸僑委會管實習生就是歸教育部管但是事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10276.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10296.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
部長你有沒有清楚說實習生跟僑生都不是跟你聊的是不是身份或是學籍是討論他們在勞動現場時的權益誰來保障這份監察院出來調查的報告部長你有沒有看過因為對不起我這邊看不太清楚你說這是哪一個時候的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10307.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10315.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
2023年有知道有好你知道所以上面的案有明明白白的寫著就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10317.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10337.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
涉及外籍學生收教權以實習以攻讀勞動的安全有深入了解的必要這個來台產學專班的越南大學的越南籍的大學生在實習工作的烘焙廠的當中不幸遭到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10339.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10355.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
一台車就意外壓榨最後就是讓他們來台求學的離鄉背井的外僑生這樣子就失去生命了所以這份報告監察院會同新北市勞檢處前往實施勞動檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10360.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10378.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
認定這個廠商的違法職業安全衛生還有措施的規則以及職業安全衛生法的規定沒有設置足夠預防的倒塌所以這必要的措施所以部長你看到這裡你還要堅持實習生的勞動歸屬教育部管嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10388.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10409.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我跟麥委員說明第一個事情實習這件事情的主管機關實習這件事情的主管機關確實是教育部但確實如果裡面有涉及到勞動相關的部分我們其實過去也一直跟教育部跟喬爾會表達我們很願意一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10410.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10426.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
加入討論甚至如果有需要勞動部協助的地方我們也很願意協助因為的確會有部分的實習假如他是這個涉及到他是工作型的話他有他需要符合的勞動法規的部分這部分當然你是勞動部長還是教育部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10427.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10442.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我當然是勞動部長對啊當然問你勞動部的事情啊我當然問勞動我才說是不是歸你管的嘛你在一直推著說教育部門我問歸你管你要回給我歸你管的不是要回說我現在不是說他來這邊是身份和學籍喔我說是勞動勞動勞動實習跟工讀的時間是不是歸你管 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10454.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10470.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
實習這件事情是教育部主管的但如果裡面有涉及到比較工作型的部分它要符合的勞動法規這個法規的規範是勞動部管可是實習這件事情這個政策的本身當然還是教育部主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10471.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10479.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
外僑生來台灣實習打工是歸你管的已經跟你講N次現在我問你管的範圍不用去問教你管的問題因為你是秀才啊你說我是秀才問秀才的問題你要講秀才的問題不要講秀才的問題不要講天兵的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10493.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10498.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
網路說你是秀才部長我是天兵問不對題但是我現在問的秀才要講的議題你不要講天兵的議題所以我沒有覺得你是天兵你講的是天兵你的事情我問你回答你不要問教育部的事情我問你的職責的問題因為你職責就是你管的這個就是外籍實習生我還是要讓你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10522.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10544.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
第一個打工跟實習是不同的打工當然是勞動部管但是實習這件事情的政策本身當然是教育部管的現在所有這些我問的都是不是說他的身份是他在工作的場合所以我們要認為說他的身份是你的你一直推給教育部我今天的是說不心離開這個學生他是在實習的合作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10550.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10555.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
的工別的廠的勞動但是監察院也認為說是會同勞動部就是顯然就是監察院都沒有認為這個就是就是產學專班的學生是勞動部就要不能置身之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10569.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10578.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
今天的不管是他的身份還外籍學生或者僑生或者打工或者實習他們討論的是說他現在確確實實在勞動現場所以我們要討論的是你的職責不要再去講規定因為你在暴露的勞動的風風險之中就是勞動勞動部在檢查勞動範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10597.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10599.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
難道不是勞動部的責任嗎我問的是你的責任範圍你講你的責任範圍就好了不要講行政的範圍也不要講說他的身份或學籍的問題你要讓我回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10613.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10631.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我開始跟委員說在實習這件事教育部主責但是如果有設計不要說工作型的實習他要遵守的法規當然是勞動部主管可是打工這件事情是勞動部主管可是打工跟實習是不一樣的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10632.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10645.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
不一樣同樣的場合這樣我問你不一樣你來你來你來去認定這個他實習的西方還是打工的地方你認定啊有沒有認定如果是打工的部分你說如果是這樣子的話實際上我們實際上因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10651.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10668.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
廠商有實習跟工作兩種合約但是廠商就用這個外籍實習生來攻讀的兩個加起來一個人20個小時兩個一週就40小時所以這是打工攻讀的部分他們的簽約但是場合 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10669.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10690.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
商工的場合是一樣的你認為不一樣但是這個一樣的所以誰來負責我現在要說的事情是工讀也是打工的部分其實在我們的救福法裡面有規定每個是20個小時這20個小時的這個工讀的部分當然這部分是勞動部來主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10691.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10698.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
所以我就問你勞工我知道勞動部的主管才問你嘛我不是問交易部你要回你的工作範圍還有你的管轄範圍你給他們的什麼保障什麼權利你有沒有分清楚你有沒有知道說這個是人命關天是問你職責不要再去講講的是說進來的你不能說你生小孩你結婚是要戶證登記生小孩也要去戶證吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10718.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10737.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
明明他生小孩就去醫院嘛你一直在講說生小孩跟結婚同一個地方完全是不同的我們是要講得很清楚在這邊我講的是你的職責我希望你回答的是你的職責因為外僑生在聘僱的時候他是簽兩個合約但是他的工作場合誰分 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10743.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10766.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
沒有分清楚所以我們就是要說這個層面要研議避免這樣子的後續發生對於工作的場合或者是打工的場合其實發生的這些勞動可能相關的事當然我們要來介入包括相關的如果需要的話有人檢舉我們要進場勞檢檢查裁罰我想這部分我們都在勞動主管機關都會來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10768.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10782.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
實習的部分如果他是工作型的實習他可能要遵守的勞動的法規這個勞動的法規的規範或者是法規的主管當然勞動部也有責任要來協助本來就是你的責任才問你不是你責任來這裡問你幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10784.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10787.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
所以實質上就是說我們這份報告指出目前專科以上的學生校外實習的權益就是切法這樣的保障所以要常見學生會在同一個工廠從事學校外籍學生或者攻讀是同一個場合同一個地方來工作所以呢我們才會覺得說這樣子的工廠的場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10809.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10816.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
職業的安全 還有主管單位 就是我們勞動部要不要積極於我們教育部 如何去合作 確保把人的孩子來這裡託生是安全的啦不是說的這不是我的 這不是我的所以我們要問的是這個問題我從來沒有說這不該勞動部 我從來沒有這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10830.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10848.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我們其實過去教育部在開相關的會的時候我們其實在現場都是表達有需要勞動部協助的部分在我們專業上面包括認定上協助的部分我們都願意協助我們過去在會議上面都是這樣表達的我們從來沒有說這些部分都不干勞動部的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10849.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10863.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
所以我現在要問你的事情你要回答怎麼樣去做合作還有產商的要如何勞檢因為我們看到這樣子的勞檢問題如果有個案學生也好或外界也好要提出檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10866.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10879.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
他有違反法規的部分的話我想我們的檢查單位我們都願意進場來協助檢視我剛才問你這個場合就是他們在實習跟供讀的一樣的你看得出來嗎因為你現在就是說看得出來嗎對不對賴委員我看你這裡要釐清一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10884.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10909.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
這個學生來台灣是產學合作的還是他另外又去打工的一樣 兩個都是在他們的勞保的部分或者工作場合現在沒辦法去釐清的是勞動部自己也釐不清因為現在開放的就是外籍生實習在的就是服務業 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10910.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10936.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
服务业跟我们的工读的也是服务业所以变成各签约就是20个小时所以呢变成20个小时同样的公司同样的场域同样的工作是这样子的分不清就变成廉价劳工所以我们希望就是说我们教育部跟劳动部要如何做劳检要减少这样子的发生 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10936.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10956.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
如果這裡面有個案有人要提出檢舉我們當然都願意來進場來檢視我們說我們都願意進場來檢視他相關在工作這個過程裡面的相關的性質有沒有要求勞務上的付出有人發生意外所以呢我們才要去做的話就沒福了啦我們希望說勞動部是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10957.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10960.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
在做勞檢的時候 讓這些業者才不會有這樣子的情形也保障這些外籍實習生喬生 工讀生 讓他們有保障現在我們跟教育部已經有一個聯合的這個相關的查查的機制而且其實之前已經有開過會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10978.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10988.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那我們其實這部分是有進行中所以我們很願意協力協助這方面如果是有這樣的話可以給我一份報告就是更完整的讓我們知道說因為白人今天來國外託車已經白天的煩惱了 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10994.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11021.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
但是來家就沒播宗 要私人啊沒人要插 叫別人來家拆車所以說這個是很多就是在國外的媽媽跟我申訴 跟我陳述還有最後一個問題 我要問一下說勞動部在3月底依告要開放橋外生畢業後可以從事六大列的中階 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11023.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11036.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
技術工作包含理術業照護輔助還是倉儲管理還有客運駕駛隨車助理也讓飯店可以自行辦理技術的培訓課程適度 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11038.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11060.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
緩解就是這個行業的缺工但是現在的話在結果呢在5月7號又正式公告說這些通通被刪除所以部長這個可以說明一下為什麼是暫緩推行這個原因跟委員說明其實確實這六類裡面其中有幾個包括尤其是司機那 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11061.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11079.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
確實外界有一些針對司機那他對於語言的熟悉度或者是對於我們其實一些這個包括可能你如果駕駛在路上的話你對這些標示的語言的狀況我們是希望交通部可以提出更多的配套但是我們交通部部長是沒問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11081.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11106.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
他說這個部分他已經準備好了是說看你們這邊怎麼樣的問題因為交通部是沒有問題委員就我知道現在交通部其實也在檢討中那看看他們能不能拿出更多的配套主要是在安全上面大家希望在安全上面其實有多一點的把關所以你開發之前3月底的時候你都沒有跟他們溝通嗎各個部會都沒有溝通那你就宣告了大家都準備好了到5月份我不要做了委員3月的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11108.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11135.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
委員三月的時候是預告預告本來就是來收集各界的意見所以在收集各界的意見過程中是有人提到這樣子的疑問或請行政部門再做確認所以我們才請交通部針對安全的問題針對可能這些這個如果要成為中階的技術工的話司機的話那他的這個相關的配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11135.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11150.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
希望能夠在更多的精進來化解大家的疑慮 主要是這樣但是當時其實就是預告 預告本來就是收集大家的意見但是不只是交通部 但是其他部會也是有相關你開放的行業嘛所以說你就不能說因為針對交通部你就是要談他 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11151.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11168.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
還有交通部他們也是說可以所以其他部會的事情還是邊溝通邊實施所以說對大家也有幫助吧不能說你公告後又來五月份就正式刪除所以我們針對今天的我希望就是我們部長給我書面給我正式給我書面的一個完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11174.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11178.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
就是讓我們知道因為在國際上的民生或者是對我們的人命光天這個部分我們不能說是是踢來踢去該負責的該做的我們要做還有就是很多的業者看到開發了就大家都很高興人家說要準備好 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11193.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11214.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
把人準備好,部長還沒準備好,這樣就是變成是政府就是做了就是要準備好,讓我們才對政府才有信任嘛,對不對不能說已經公布,我們大家就還沒有做好到最後我們人民都準備好了,我們政府說我還沒有準備好這樣子的話這不行,所以希望這兩個給我書面的回應更完整,好嗎是,好,謝謝部長好,謝謝麥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11222.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11240.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
謝謝 沒問題這個case有勞保的撫恤什麼都有吧對啊 有沒有啦有沒有收到 他們有收到死亡撫恤什麼都有吧因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11250.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11264.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
勞動補助就是傷障費還有家屬的請領的部分也沒有後續因為每年都要審查部長你派人去跟他溝通一下因為每個人找勞保都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11275.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11293.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
圓滿的解決啦,這樣這樣這樣好,賴會員,賴會員,賴會員不在鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌,鍾嘉斌委員不在林德虎,林德虎,林德虎改成蘇委員執勤王振旭委員執勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11302.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11305.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
好謝謝主席我們就麻煩虹部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11314.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11338.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
部長好謝謝今天提供這個專題報告的內容真的內容非常豐富這個題目對我來講真的非常的困難也許對主席來講對召委來講沒有困難的程度不過因為相對來講這個勞工尤其是對勞保這個財務穩健的改善的部分真的是面臨非常大的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11339.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11359.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那今天就三個主題來跟部長討論一個就是勞保財務改善機制另外就是調整勞保投保薪資上限的可能性第三個就是還有勞退勞保勞退試算網頁能不能整合在一體的這個三個問題來跟部長討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11362.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11375.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那我們也了解勞保在整體的這個財務要做穩健的改善事實上考量的事情會非常非常的多所以一直以來Lewin部長對這樣的議題其實都會採用比較穩健的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11379.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11403.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那在上個會期預算會期裡面我也麻煩勞動部這邊針對勞保財務改善提出一些應應的對策希望能夠有更合理的方式讓整個勞工朋友會很有信心的知道政府其實對於勞工尤其在退休以後的這些財務的部分呢可以得到一個最大的心理的一個安定感 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11404.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11426.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那我們也知道說如果透過一些改革的話包括要提高保費或者是要降低給付或者是要延長投保薪資採集期間等改革方案通常他會有很多很多同時思考的部分針對於目前整個政府的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11427.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11444.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
比較傾向的就是第一個不降低給付第二個就是不調整保費這是兩個大前提那在兩個大前提之下對整體的這些處理模式就會有不同的思考方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11444.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11459.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
那針對於這個勞保財務的這些因應對策如果以剛剛那兩個大前提之下的話那可能就會有希望三個部分第一個就是就好像前任何部長所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11460.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11487.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
政府撥補也是改革的方案之一這個到目前洪部長也是也有同感那第二項就是鼓勵勞工能夠續留職場那在去年我們也把這個法案也把65歲的年齡再往後延退那第三個就是要強化查核跟管理機制這就包括說這個整個勞保基金投資的績效如果能夠讓他可以更有效率或者是有效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11488.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11509.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
另外就是催收保費我們可以定期的去透過更好的方式來催收保費另外就是在給付的時候 退休的時候的這些給付的審查這個都是可以當作一個因應對策那在政府撥補的部分 除了每一年目前都是一千億的政府撥補以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11510.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11531.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那有沒有機會其實大家很期盼的就是政府能不能把這個最終支付的責任來入法另外有沒有像健保一樣可以用特定的稅捐或是公益財券等等的方式來讓這個勞保財務可以更穩健這部分不知道部長還有沒有其他的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11534.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11554.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
謝謝委員的建議那我想確實的確在勞保的財務的維持上面其實挑戰是很大的那各方有各種的意見包括其實今天一直討論到政府的最終責任的入法其實我想我們都是持開放的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11556.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11574.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
但是不管我還是要強調不管有沒有入法我想政府都是會負最終責任的那至於其他財源的開源這當然會涉及到比方說像委員其實有提到特定的一些稅捐供財或者是其他部分這當然因為這部分他的這個他現在可能也是其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11575.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11595.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
其他運用的財源所以我們不過我們對於說有利於增加基金收入的一些建議我想我都會持正面的態度來做來做研議那但是這部分當然我覺得我們也可以可以很願意跟委員這邊來做更多的討論還有沒有更多的可能性這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11595.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11622.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好那我們今天就針對一種可行性來討論看看就是調整勞救保這個投保薪資上限的可能性那這部分希望就是說在依照上一次這個預算會期裡面所提案的部分如果我們把這個投保的上限的薪資往上提升的話會帶來哪一些影響那也期待透過這樣的這個調整可以讓我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11624.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11652.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
整個勞保的這個制度可以更為完整在保費保險這部分那時候部裡面的回應就是說最主要的顧慮還是在提高投保薪資上限的時候會增加勞保給付的支出那也會讓財務的負擔更有疑慮所以會就是還是在研議當中並沒有想要做這方面的改善不過我們可以看一些數據就可以了解為什麼我們有這樣的提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11653.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11672.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
其實我們從這過去這20年來就可以理解在2006年的時候在經過1998年就把這個勞保最高的投保薪資級距定到4萬2000元那到10年就2016年當中又增加了這個1700 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11674.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11688.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
就變成43900可是到目前為止好像已經也將近10年了這一步有沒有機會再把當初在2016年訂的45800再往上提高那為什麼我們會這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11689.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11707.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
想要從這邊來討論我們可以看得出來在這個人最高投保級距的人數其實這幾年來或者說20年來這個百分比已經改變非常多在2006年投到最保級距的4萬24是有18%10年以後變成25%那現在已經到33%意思就是說從這個勞動人口來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11715.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11742.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
有33%的人他已經投保到這個最高投保的級距那似乎就等於說太多太多的人擠在這個級距裡面那未來或者是現在如果從這邊來考量的話如何能夠讓這個百分比在這個級距更合理的分布這是我們非常期待的因為我們看到其實每人每月的薪資當然這是個平均值在使用上要非常的小心可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11743.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11752.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
基本上他已經5萬5了那我們用4萬5來當作最高級距似乎是有改善或者是可以討論的部分就是我們可以從這個數據來看得到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11754.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11777.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
那這些這個是從這個級距上來看那如果就給給付的項目來看的話那大部分的這個勞保給付最終的時候年金還是佔了90%就是最大宗的支出可是還有剛剛其他不同的這些給付包括像死亡給付剛剛麥委員也提到這樣的勞工如果出問題的話死亡給付的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11778.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11794.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那這些給付基本上都是以最高這個這個級距來做一個計算的基礎那在另外舊保給付的部分會包括有失業給付等等那假設以我們現在是少子化的狀況來看如果我們不去調整它 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11795.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11814.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
當然這些影響是會很明顯如果我們試著以這個少子化來看的話我們能夠把這個最高的級距提升的時候他的生育給付相對來講就會有改善的機會那對於這個育嬰留子停薪今天是薪資補助也會有改善的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11815.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11831.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以如果我們去調整這些部分的時候針對某一些特殊需求其實是可以看到它的效果當然整體來看我們還是要適度的去評估各方面帶來的影響所以我們試著去分析它的利弊專家學者也告訴我們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11832.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11857.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
如果我們要把這個投保薪資的上限做調整的話那基本上它的好處或者考量就是基本上它是一個溫和提高保惠收入的一種方式那也可以回應出這個幾乎標準的需求回應薪資跟最低薪資工資的持續的調漲還有讓這個具體上是調整時間來看的話事實上呢是可以有這個機會來做這個相對 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11862.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11886.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個投保上限的這個機會的存在當然也會造成某一些的困擾或者是疑慮包括給付金額會增加那目前也沒有達到這個平衡費用的情形之下不宜來加重這個財務的負擔那當然這個過程裡面也會增加這個勞工還有我們的資方、顧方還有政府的三方的保惠支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11887.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11913.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那另外就是這些如何能夠應用在照顧低薪的弱勢族群上面所以我們也了解的確要調整的部分都會有這樣的困難不過我們也希望透過這樣的討論方式看能不能夠在這個前提之下就是在提高這個投保上限的這個機制之下還有哪一些的配套措施可以來進行包括提高投保上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11914.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11930.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
來搭配其他的方案包括這個採用裂退方式來降低高薪者的給付另外就是對勞保這個財務收入跟給付的影響來做一些試算跟評估還有對於這個勞資政三方保惠支出的影響評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11932.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11959.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那另外就是要建立這個勞救保投資薪資急遽上限有沒有一個好的調整機制剛剛我們看到已經有33%的人是站在這個最高薪資這個極限裡面那未來有沒有機會到一定的百分比的時候呢我們就試著去調整這些機制然後去看這個影響會是如何那不知道部長針對這個提議可不可以進行研議或者是目前有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11961.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11984.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我要說非常謝謝王委員 其實這邊包括做肝臟的利弊的分析 包括最後其實提出來的建議其實我們都覺得是很具建設性 那也幫助我們很多那現在王委員在螢幕上面的 比方第二項跟第三項我想這些相關的影響評估 我想我們保險司其實應該是可以來提供 這個影響評估的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11985.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12014.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
第一項跟第四項我覺得它的可行性我們也可以來做一些研討也就是說的確針對勞保級距上限的問題其實最大的考量點其實就是會不會對勞保的財務產生更大的負擔因為現在整體勞保財務的問題已經是一個很大的挑戰其實最主要的考量點坦白說就是這件事情但這件事情也是一個不是那麼好克服的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12015.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12034.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以我們是在這個前提之下有沒有可能有各種的思考的做法我覺得我想我們是可以是願意來再去做一些評估跟思考對好啊那就麻煩部長出示來來呃關心這個這個本來就是部長應該要負的重責大任嘛好那最後部分我再呃請呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12036.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12062.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
部長這邊部裡面也去試著可能來掌握看看因為我們知道大家在就工作期間其實對於如何去試算這個勞退休的這些基金部分不會太在意可是當你越接近要進入到這個要退休的時候就會開始想要去了解自己到底將來會有多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12063.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12086.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
退休以後還可以支配所以說我們就會有兩個制度或者是兩個算法那我們這邊看到的就是在部裡面提供了兩套不同的系統來讓民眾知道讓勞工朋友知道他將來退休的時候會有哪一些的這個可以試算的基礎那我們可以看到就是其實部裡面現在有兩套系統或兩個頁面 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12087.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12111.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
在讓勞工朋友進入到這個需求的時候可以去應用到的地方可是呢它分屬在不同的兩個這個我們可以看到的這兩個不同左邊跟右邊其實是兩套不同的系統所以是不是部裡面有機會去整合以勞工為準整合這個勞保年金給付跟勞退薪資試算網頁的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12112.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12139.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這樣的話它的方便性除了很高以外將來大家在應用上也會更方便謝謝謝謝王委員的建議跟提醒我想這個建議其實我覺得非常好而且他真的應該會對於很多勞工朋友在試算的時候會有很大的方便性的提供所以我認為我們可以配合來辦理好那就麻煩部長好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝王委員我們醫生健保的複試付到18萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12143.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12154.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
最高現在18萬多像王振旭他應該是繳18萬的18萬,現在5.21就是9千多塊9千多塊喔那我們健保,勞保這邊才4萬5千8我們也能夠九十幾萬的財富我們社會可以拿一點錢嗎?你自己害人我絕對不公平,真的真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12171.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12183.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
好 接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢好 謝謝主席 是不是還是請我們洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12202.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12229.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
部長大家都很關心這個勞保的這個基金的問題喔至少我個人也很擔心但我想到說大家覺得說領的越來越多繳費的越來越少可是那我就認真的看了一下新一個世代投入職場然後現在有在繳保費的我都很好奇那一年他們出生的人口是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12229.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12251.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
那我就假設是25歲好了因為大學畢業嘛22歲23歲那今年2025年我就看了一下2020年你知道那一年出生的小孩出生的小孩有幾個嗎大概十幾萬不告訴你你會嚇一跳我看了也嚇一跳2020年出生的小孩有305312個 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12257.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12264.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
你知道去年剩下13萬4856個我這個是統計 這絕對不是亂寫的人口統計2000年啦 抱歉我們不曉得怎麼講2000年啦 抱歉抱歉是2000年 我講錯了2000年是30萬5312個那個時候就在講說人口少子化危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12288.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12293.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
2000年 大家講說現在繳的少30萬人還叫繳的少嗎但如果再找一個數字相較於1982年那一年出生的小孩有40萬個我就找40萬的40萬掉到30萬 2000年其實在2000年已經就掉到30萬了2000年是因為農年再加上2000年 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12315.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12344.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那為什麼講這個是從40萬人掉到30萬人花了18年的時間少掉了25%四分之一的人口數那個時候我們就說這個勞保的財務危機了勞保的財務危機可是你知道從2000年然後掉到再少四分之一就財務危機少三分之一是幾年多快的速度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12346.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12350.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
5年2005年出生數剩下20萬5854人2005年短短5年的時間又減10萬他不是10萬是3分之1再來對 跟 跟花多少的時間對30萬變成要變15萬這樣 兇兇落來 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12377.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12393.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這個速度也是非常的快如果不要講一個特殊的年是2010年的話其實就是2021年20年他從30萬掉到剩15萬二分之一所以2000年為界 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12394.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12421.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
他到2020年掉了二分之一如果少了四分之一就是財務危機那那麼快的速度下墜到三分之一就少了三分之一然後再更快的速度二十年時間少了二分之一那我現在講這個勞保的財務危機大家都知道開源節流 開源怎麼開源啊費率 法定費率工具用完了 剩下幾%現在費率多少% |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12424.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12429.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
法定費率最高到多少法定費率沒有修法的話 緊繃啊天花板到了 沒有開圓的工具了那我們再打開投保薪資的天花板投保薪資天花板是要開到多高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12450.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12460.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
你少掉了二分之一的人耶如果再跟四十萬的人口來講那個不是二分之一 四十萬變成十五萬耶這裡打多開 也開不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12466.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12477.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
大家都知道 這個不是結構不結構 入不敷出 已經沒有任何的手段可以再繼續開源了好 去年2024年 這個政府撥補1300億 投資收益的創新高1595億的投資收益 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12488.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12493.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
也是一樣入不敷出前年2023年政府撥補550億投資收益1100億那是死好呢那是死壞 你投資收益很壞的要安住 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12505.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12522.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面 我們看你們的精算報告這次的精算報告也出來了去年的勞保收支還短差665億這個已經是連續8年這個逆差 大家都知道我剛才剩下人口數給你聽 你怕死啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12523.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12538.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
潛藏的負債不要講啊 這個從變成14兆就不要講收不抵資也不用再講了 惡化也不用再講政府如何加大力道 我想喔啊 一樣啦 已經撥不到1300億啦 你是要怎麼加大力道啦還可以多大啦然後 這個到底是怎麼 怎麼辦喔你把年紀想起來 頭皮會發麻捏頭皮真的會發麻欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12555.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12568.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
這個人口就是牽動這個退休這個勞保基金最重要的變數這個人口結構這麼大的變化大家都知道人口危機是國安危機可是就是在這裡那勞保的普通事故啊因濟保費在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12576.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12584.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
投保人數就是現在還是40萬的人在繳費的現在繳費的應該都是一年生40萬的人在繳費的吧今年是40萬人那個世代的人在繳費的啦今年是30萬跟20萬的還沒到職場啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12599.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12606.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那是更恐怖的啦一年才有40萬的離開的人現在在投保可是光是這樣子2021年投保人數從1074萬到去年已經下降到1048萬少了26萬了那勞保普通事故因紀的保險費是這個4881億但實際保險的給付已經高達5546.3億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12628.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12654.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
所以這樣的撥補是撥補我們是很輕盈的但是就不是辦法那這種這麼大的人口結構的問題之下這個我的助理叫我跟你們大家講雖然我也不曉得我認不認同但他們都選擇不婚不生快樂一生但是這樣下去他們覺得不婚不生的人也要貧窮一生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12657.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12660.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
然後呢 我要再問你一個很嚴肅的課題喔勞保分得這麼大 勞保可以賺嗎你說政府付不付 最終責任沒有重要啊全部所有的人口的一半 一千萬全部都是在這個 社會保險裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12674.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12688.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負最終責任,政府不負 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12699.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12707.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
真的都不夠 吃得老的時候都仰賴勞保的月退再充當他的這個勉強度餘生的棺材本啦我說這個很務實的 很現實的喔不要說勞退喔 勞退沒多少錢啦都仰賴勞保主要的經濟 老年經濟來源仰賴勞保的比例有多高 你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12735.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12747.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
各位報告我們對勞工的老年經濟保障還是希望他們跟世界...不要講你的希望我現在要問你現實面真正的現實面台灣有多少人他退休之後所有的收入所有的經濟的來源他生活都靠而已去報這個月退多少人你告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12761.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12775.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
不過勞保目前的家保人口是一千多萬嘛那但是在勞退那邊也有七百多萬啦所以是 我在問什麼 你在回答什麼我問東你答西 王店員你不知道喔數字上面我可能可以 我們要再去確認一下我告訴你大概全台灣沒有人可以講得出一個數字因為沒有人敢面對 沒有人敢調查 也 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12788.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12793.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
大家都烏著眼睛說不要去想 但是我跟你說喔就如我剛才一開始就講的現在的年輕人不要問我們上一代的現在要捏錢的啦 多少人仰賴這個勞保月退再當生活費的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12805.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12806.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
因為他沒有能力去為自己的老年經濟做準備養小孩繳房貸他在養上一代 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12823.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12838.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
別說他問我們自己啦大家各位在座的各位有幾個人你繳了房貸養了小孩然後給了父母生活費以後你還有能力為你自己的老年經濟安全有餘裕做準備的這個小孩我說得很輕鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12842.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12853.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我坐著一眼望去 多少人都仰賴勞保的月退當生活開支的唯一財源這個問題很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12858.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12883.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我也不知道怎麼問,所以不能破綻的但是我現在要跟你講,你是政府,你再怎麼逃,再怎麼躲,躲不了撥補是好事,但撥補也解決不了,漲保費,漲保費也沒辦法手段工具都用清了,沒有可以再上漲的空間了 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12885.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12895.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
打開天花板,天花板進去繳收入也有限現在未來是怎樣?我再說一個問題,你不要去思考過不?不對,AI的時代來了AI的時代來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12901.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12920.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
三年五年整個社會整個世界都就長得不一樣AI的速度之快啊讓這個社會可能三年就多一輪啊多一輪啊所以那個對勞動市場最大的衝擊是什麼大家都覺得失業啊被替代啊然後來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12922.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12948.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
你就要勞保基金的改革說那我們不能開源 我們節流叫啊 大家啊 你要比較少的就已經很少了 要給他少不然就看我而已全世界都在把退休的年齡往後延可是我想AI時代來這是一個很殘忍 很殘酷的打擊來了因為可能會很多人力被替代掉而會有大量的過剩的勞動力 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12950.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12966.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
所以如果大家全世界來講說要領年金的年齡往後延那並不是基於並不是基於勞動力需求而已並不是基於勞動力需求的短缺恐怕真正的殘酷是基於 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12968.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12978.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
老年幾戶的這個基金不夠所以這叫大家都不能退休不能退休問題是沒頭腦啊AI時代來了勞動力大量的勞動力過剩人力被取代這樣要怎麼做你們有沒有想過AI時代對整個就業市場勞動力市場的衝擊除了失業以外還會有什麼影響保證你們有想過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12997.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13021.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
確實這個AI技術的滲透率越來越高其實現在其實在很多面向看起來都會對於整體的勞動環境會造成影響像是我想維恩其實也一直很關注這個問題不是啦我在講跟我們這個勞保基金有關的啦對於整個勞動力市場就業人口除了失業還有可能會產生什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13023.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13037.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
失業保費繳的人就少了啊然後然後人類可能會更長壽更長壽以後活得越久領得越多活得越久領的人越多這個是這個社會保險會瓦解不是會瓦解是將近崩潰 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13046.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13065.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
不只是勞保還有健保 所幸喔 勞保不是唯一的那我再 不要忘了 我們現在移工我們的移工 我們現在83萬的移工都在繳保費 但是第14年以後不准他們領退休欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13067.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13092.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
嘿 所以我們的政策都卡在第14年耶我們是用這種這麼殘忍的手段耶可是這種手段會不會有一天在國際勞工的這個組織裡面這種公約裡面要求台灣不能再這樣子下去或是人家提告 到國際法庭去提告覺得我們這種管制手段都叫人搬移這樣如果要安坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13096.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13098.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
你做政府有太重嗎?這問題很嚴重的所以這種狀況裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13104.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13108.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
社會保險這個問題你知道2023年OECD和G20的國家年金統計調查了42個國家除了冰島墨西哥美國和G20的印尼四國以外這個四國不要談了其餘各國 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13127.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13143.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
和我國的勞保性質相近的 就是確定幾戶制的這些國家的提存基金的比例都是100%以上印尼沒有啦 印尼是97%啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13144.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13162.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
各國當中最低的是冰島雖然也曾經破產過但他們年金制度的提存比例也有28但是不要講冰島這比較特殊但是在我國2021年的精算報告勞保的已提存的基金比例是幾%我國的6.19%人家都100% |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13173.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13193.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
好沒關係因為可能制度上有一點差異不一樣但是但是這個這個也是我們可以走的方向可是就人口結構惡化成這個樣子連確定確定幾副字能不能夠適應在未來的改革能不能這樣子都還是一個問號啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13196.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13205.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
確定第一波是已經負債這麼多了確定幾副你們有沒有評估過從13萬40萬變成30萬就已經這麼大的財務危機啊30萬變成13萬確定確定幾副字真的也提得出來嗎可以100%嗎你們有評估過嗎這是現在當然現在是這是制度上面的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13225.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13243.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
不是啦政府的功能和角色就國安的危機當然就是未雨綢繆要先試算20年後的危機那我們才能知道怎麼因應而現在我告訴你不管開源或節流所有的手段工具都用竊了沒了沒了然後我就想政府你要想大家都覺得在這裡修法要修什麼啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13253.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13282.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
再降低給付再延長這個退休這一些都不是工具了我們過去想像的工具都已經不是工具了更何況AI時代來了所以部長這個是很嚴肅的而且是我相信對勞動部而言你們真的還必須要重新嚴肅的去思考的事過去以後我們確定提撥制變成確定給付制就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13284.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13294.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我們確定幾乎是愛環樂人口突然間零得越來越多五十萬的世代人要再活一年四十萬人的世代人要再活一年四十萬人的世代人要再活 要再捏零得越久 活得越多現在叫的是一年四十三萬的時侯要安寧 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13308.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13326.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
人家去叫你 我就確定幾副 副的出來嗎所以這個知識體大啦 我只能在這裡與眾欣賞的在跟大家講一個最殘酷現實 我今天要講一個重點不管開源或節流 所有的工具都用完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13328.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13337.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
幾乎都沒辦法我們可以想像的勞保的改革手段的工具沒了這是很嚴重的事情好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13347.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13352.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好 好 我跟他說一句 你不要笑我說因為你不知道說多少勞工仰賴勞保的老年給付剛好你們自己有一個勞工生活及就業狀況調查113年度調查勞工退休後的生活費的來源目前沒有規劃的人28%有規劃的72%但有規劃的裡面仰賴勞保老年給付和勞工退休金的高達四成四所以44加28等於72%都算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13379.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13381.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
主席 麻煩請勞動基金運用局書局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13406.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13435.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
局長好我們查了一下貴局的這個新聞資料最近的一則是在6月2日發布的那麼引述的是美國政府4月2日的時候宣布開徵對等關稅且這個稅率超乎市場預期政策不確定性引發的這個市場擔憂經濟衰退風險提高那台股在這個4月7日的時候重挫逾2000點那跌幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13438.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13465.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
9.7%那创台股历史单日最大跌点的这个跌幅记录那恐慌情绪蔓延那目前呢这个你们运总用这个规模达这个7兆7170亿元截至4月底的这个评价后收益数为-2215亿元收益率为-2.98%那因此我想说请教一下苏局长 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13466.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13474.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
5月初應該發布的新聞為什麼沒有發布是什麼樣的原因麥克風要打開 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13480.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13507.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我們6月原則上第一個工作天會公佈前一個月的收益數5月的部分我們目前還在統計中所以5月的數字會到大概5月中下旬才會完成因為我們的收益是包括國內外然後會整個統計所以5月的數字會是在7月的時候來公佈我們現在公佈的是截至4月底的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13508.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13535.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以我們六月是公布前一個月份不是五月因為我們六月二號就第一個公布所以你們五月份大概要八月才會七月所以你們每個月都會公布但是看不到前面一個月的因為目前我們還在結算那個五月底的數字現在是六月嘛好沒關係我大概就弄清楚啦這個沒有什麼特別要刁難什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13536.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13560.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
因為好像每次都是雙月你們確定每個月都會公佈就對了我們每個月都會公佈收益數好 那我另外其次我要想要請教就是說勞動基金國內各種投資標的這個金額在你們整體總運用規模的7,170億元那大概是多少的百分比 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13562.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13576.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
百分比是我們我們有7兆多有配置在國內的部位也有國外的有股票的也有債券還有另類資產那都有不同的一個比例所以大概就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13578.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13598.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
除了國內股市之外你們其他還有國內的債券還有國外的債券國外的權益股票然後還有那個另類資產那我想了解就是說因為我們資料上看不到就是說國內跟國外的這個投資比例大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13598.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13616.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
原則上不同的基金因為有不同的投資規範有的可以投資國外有的不能投資股票那目前為止如果我們以新智基金來看大概是原則上大概是一半一半但是新智會在國外的部位高一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13617.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13635.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
所以这样子你有比较具体的数据吗大概是五十七五十八左右就是整个来看的话是这样就是五十七五十八是国外国外对对因为国外的市场比较大那你们就是除了这个股票跟基金之外还有没有其他可以做投资的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13638.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13659.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我們的投資標的包括國內股票還有包括國外的像ETF基金另外還有國內的債券是一定有還有包括國外的債券然後還有我們也有另外的像投資國外的不動產投資信託的標的也有所以國外還有這個不動產的信託那我想其實剛剛這樣問是想 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13667.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13689.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
檢視一下你們這個想法你們的這個規劃看起來也大概也大概就是大家都可以想得到的那接下來我要問一個比較敏感的問題就是說你的支出長官是勞動部長以部長的職權部長可不可以影響你們的投資策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13691.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13716.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
報告委員我們內部訂有相關的規範我們有嚴謹的一個投資程序以國內股票為例那這個部長還有我本人都不會去指定我們同仁可以投資哪個個股我們以國內股票為例來說因為你若可以規範可以要求那事情就大掉了但是如果績效不彰的時候部長有沒有責任還是由蘇局長來負最終的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13721.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13735.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這個我們的投資就是大家都很努力啦好那這個我們希望每年多賺錢啦當然市場會有不好的時候但是我們也希望長期是獲利的所以誰要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13738.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13765.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我今天不用擔心我今天問的都只是在協助大家慢慢的釐清然後有一些新的想法這不是要刁難誰啦這樣投資的部分大概都是在我們局裡來處理那部長目前為止都沒有對我們的投資有特別的要求或是那個對好那我只是想問說績效部長的時候部長有沒有責任而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13766.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13790.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
應該是基金運用局你要扛全責就對了好很好我想我們身為未還委員會的成員我很高興在上一屆曾經為你們基金運用局的同仁爭取專業佳績的調升讓你們從表1一下直接提高到表17謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13791.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13812.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那我也曾經要求說應該將這個每年的盈餘直接分配到勞工朋友還有這個退休勞工朋友的這個退休金賬戶內我想這些訴求呢今天都實現了我想除了感謝蘇局長之外呢也跟這個前任的這個蔡豐欣局長那也跟他表達這個感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13814.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13840.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
事實上這些關注所隱含的信念跟價值其實它背後就是公平與正義這個勞動基金講求的是穩健所以不能說為了更高的預期效益然後就讓勞工的錢暴露在過高的風險之下所以也不能容許任何人從中獲取某取利益然後犧牲到勞工的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13841.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13862.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
因此在這個國際的經濟情勢的變動是我們台灣無法改變的那這裡面呢股市的這個聯動是最直接顯著的那今年三四月的這個台灣股市的表現創下很多的歷史記錄我猜這是你們五月份沒有發布新聞的沒有就是那個進度的問題但是如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13867.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13874.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
局長是我們這個基金的掌舵者那請問局長要如何降低受到國際不可控的這個風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13876.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13896.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
報告委員市場變化確實越來越劇烈但是我們基金是一個希望有一個長期穩健收益所以我剛剛提到就是說我們在配置的部分我們一定是多元分散我想多元分散是一個很重要的一個想法一個思考那是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13897.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13915.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我在這邊有一些建議那局長可以聽聽看就是說我們是不是也就是說來增加國內的投資比例也是一種選項例如本土化的這個新創產業或者是縣市政府鼓勵推動的這個投資獎勵產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13918.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13933.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這些就說如同當年我們的這個台積電的這個公司一樣因為你們有沒有想過就說在當年那個時候官員的魄力與責任在那個法治還不是很健全的時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13934.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13947.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我們有這個能力產生護國神山那你們現在手上掌控的資源比當時還要多但是呢只是說能做一些一般民眾也可以做的這個買賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13950.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13975.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
也可以就是說一般民眾也可以去做的這個買股票這樣的事情我相信喔股市是一種它是一種零和的結果啦那長期下來一方所得呢就等於是他方的這個所失畢竟就是說勞工去投資買賣股票跟你們相比賺錢的機會一定是比較少的我不知道署長有沒有認同我剛剛的一些觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13977.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13993.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
謝謝委員指教那對於我們這個資產的配置還有投資的標的我們因為這個勞動基金有關我們勞工的退休生活所以我們非常的謹慎所以我今天拋出這樣的一個想法你們可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13994.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14010.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
未來研議看看因為從公平正義的角度你們倒不如去投資有潛力的新創事業或者投資一些紮根在台灣的產業特別是能夠幫助到地方就業人數增加的產業例如比較偏鄉地區的產業以台東縣為例養生運動 休閒觀光企業還有農漁業 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14015.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14035.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
的這個生產跟加工醫療照護綠色能源生技科技還有很多產業是屬於這種投資獎勵的產業可是地方政府能做的很有限特別是一項經中央或台東縣政府專案核准設立資本縣內的產業只要我有獲利的機會是不是就可以被投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14037.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14052.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我們大概我們在投資的標的目前大概是以有流動性上市櫃股票為主那最主要是我們的我們必須要準備相關的流動性那另外我們相關的投資流程大概也都會有一定的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14054.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14080.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個我理解但是我剛剛提的也不是完全不可能只是過去從來都沒有被思考過沒有被討論過所以我今天拋出這樣的議題我希望你們也可以朝這個方向可以好好的去研究去演繹因為生產AI晶片的這個輝達公司一直他有宣布就是說要在北市科成立這個亞洲亞洲營運中心之後立刻帶動了這個當地鄰近的這個房價 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14084.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14104.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那台積電在南科設廠呢台南地區的房價跟就業人口也是整個被帶動起來那你們這個勞動基金或許可以成為下一個這個護國神山堅強的後盾好所以我想這個更多元的這個前驅的思維我們未來投資不要這麼狹隘那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14107.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14131.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
所以拜託可以好好研議因為護國神三五不是只有晶片而已這個糧食安全也是一個很重要的項目所以這個部分我想這樣的投入讓更多人加入勞保同時產生開源節流的效益同時這也是解決你們勞保年金 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14132.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14145.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
也是解決這個勞保年金的一種方式啦好那謝謝我想這個後面後續我們可能辦公室在約時間大家好好討論是好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝蘇署長那接續請李坤成委員質詢謝謝主席我們請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14167.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14190.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
來 部長好今天雖然談的是勞工退休金制度的改革不過總是要有人有勞工未來有人繳這個保費勞保才不會倒所以我想還是問一下有關掃紙化跟勞動部有相關一些問題因為我注意到在今年4月的時候部長有接受專訪你也提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14191.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14212.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
你從立委到這個擔任部長那一直都積極努力要如何讓休假還有育嬰停留可以更彈性讓勞工可以兼顧職涯的發展那在去年這個勞動部也是有這個規劃這個以日為單位做一個請假的一個方式來做一個進行示範可是效果不是很好那我請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14214.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14222.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個事辦 去年事辦那接下來今年之後有關於這個育嬰停留以日來請休這個方向有在進行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14223.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14243.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
跟委員說明因為委員其實也一直很關心那我們確實現在針對運營流停的彈性化那正在做下一個階段的規劃還有包括配套的設計那目前在這個程序當中那現在也在跟行政院在爭取相關的配套資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14244.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14272.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
對那大概方向是怎麼樣就是說以日以日來作為這一個請那個請休的這個方向是確定的嗎我們現在是朝向讓暈暈流停也包括這個家庭照顧假能夠更具彈性包括能用更短的時間能夠請休的方向在演繹因為這也是現在其實蠻多新手的爸媽來跟我們表達他們其實真的有這個部分的需要就是說希望這個在暈暈停留的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14273.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14296.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
我們可以用日來做請休然後在家庭照顧假的方面現在是可以用這個用小時來做來做這個請假嗎我們也是往這個方向在演繹所以目前還沒有就是家庭照顧假就是用這個小時來做這個請假現在是日現在家庭照顧假有7天對然後7天嘛那一天算8小時嘛那說7 8 5656個小時那未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14300.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14311.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
未來在修法的話因為這其實也不用修法有關這一個家庭照顧假這一個這個需要修法嗎如果說是從日改成小時來做勤領的話這需要修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14311.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14338.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我目前在研議如果要這個方向的話基本上他應該是不用修法的不用修法那不用修法如果大家認為說這樣子更方便的話那何不就朝這個方向來做進行對所以我剛才跟委員說明我們的確現在是不管是家庭照顧假或者是暈流停的彈性現在是綜合的來思考那都是希望更彈性然後更短的時間來請修的這個方向但是現在的確是在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14340.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14358.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
配套規劃的階段因為我們也希望能夠盡量去緩解可能包括企業他在人力調度上面的挑戰要怎麼幫他去克服或者是減少人力調度的挑戰的部分這個也同時我們一併來思考所以這些相關的資源我們目前配套所需要的資源我們也在跟行政院爭取中 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14359.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14380.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
在去年事辦的時候有人提到就是說這一個手續上比較繁複像勞保局填報資料然後這個流程很繁複然後希望說在城市上面如果做個這個設計可以讓這個請假更方便你們有朝這個方向來做處理嗎因為這只是一個技術上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14380.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14404.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
不是一個政策上面的一個根文說明因為確實間院留庭他是來自這個就保險裡面的給付所以他會有一些是在這個相關給付裡面他要去給付的時候的一些規範不過我們也老保局其實這段時間也很積極的在針對這些相關操作的技術流程有沒有可能可以更簡便 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14405.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14425.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
或者是可以減少更多的人力我想這也是我們在思考的配套的其中一個重要的部分因為從事辦到現在也蠻久的時間了那這是其中大家所提出來一個需要你們改善我是想說那接下來不會有事辦計畫了接下來就是如果說真的要去做的話那就是一個政策出來那我們就去做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14426.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14446.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我希望是直接就是進入到下一個階段那這個下一個階段就是我們剛剛在講的這些方向但是我還是要跟文說明過去之所以事辦也包括事辦的成效當然也要接受大家的一些指教其實很大的原因就是你必須把方方面面的配套給想清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14447.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14474.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那你把它配套給想清楚這個政策在開始進行以後它的效果能夠幫助到的人跟普及率才有辦法能夠更高所以我們自己在思考跟規劃這個政策的時候我們覺得配套能不能夠到位其實是關鍵所以為什麼我們會多花一些時間比較細膩的來做這些相關的規劃的原因所以這樣子你們也花了半年時間來做示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14476.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14504.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那我是希望說像這個半年這個半年當然現在是先停下來的這個半年我們這個半年研議可是其實比較多的時間確實是在配套所需要的機制包括配套所需要的資源我們現在也在爭取中那所以說那可不可以歸納說就是勞動部這個方向是說我們育嬰停留就是說希望說能夠採日來做勤修那有關這一個家庭照顧下的話我們希望說能夠用小池來做清理的這個方向來做進行我們朝向這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14504.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14525.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那大概哪個時候會提出來相關的配套我真的是希望盡快,我真的希望盡快但是現在確實是在跟行政爭取這些配套的資源我是希望下一個會期能夠提出來啦我希望可以更快好,那更好啊好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝李委員,謝謝部長那接下來我們請楊耀委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14537.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14538.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
好 謝謝主席 主席請一下洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14549.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14567.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
部長我們有關勞工退休金制度的改革大概講了非常非常多年其實大概就是一直在原地踏步我今天從幾個面向跟部長做一些探討第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14569.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14597.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們法定的勞保費率將在2027年達到法定上限也就是說勞保年金它自2002009年上路依勞保條例的規定實施第三年期大概每年調高0.5個百分點調到10%以後改成兩年調0.5個百分點一直到它的上限是13 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14601.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14623.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那今年已經到達了12.5%那也就是說下一次所以我一開始才說2027年就會到達法定上限我先請問一下部長會不會提出修法版本確保勞保的永續經營 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14625.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14646.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那個委員確實現在費率每兩年提高0.5%因為剛剛委員是把舊保那一拍算進去那如果不算的話其實是每兩年會到12%所以目前確實在116年會達到上限對不對那你們你們對於保險費率的提高有沒有什麼想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14648.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14661.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我們確實針對費率的提高這個確實也或者是增加這個保費的負擔的問題其實的確現在各界還有不同的一些意見也尤其也涉及到老公的一些權益那我們我們確實還在神聖的思考好那就是保險費率的部分呢還在思考對 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14673.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14695.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那我用你們的精算報告來跟勞保局的2024年的勞保精算報告來幾個數字提供給部長就是說假如說要攤提過去未提存負債的平衡費率大概費率要高達31%假如不攤提也要17% |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14703.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14726.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
也就是說照你們的精算報告你們大概每幾年就會做一次勞保精算報告嗎這幾年呢也花了一千三百萬左右在做精算報告那我今天沒有那麼多時間可以跟你探討精算報告可是針對精算報告提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14727.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14749.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
就是現行的費率假如不改勞保的洞就會越來越大那我剛才也說了2027年以至後年就會達到法定上限那現在勞動部的態度不明我希望勞動部能夠盡快把政策的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14750.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14774.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
確定因為很多東西我覺得我們不應該一直留在停留在委員會討論或者是說社會共識我們部長溝通的觀念不管是多繳少領延後退沒有一項是可以凝聚到社會共識的 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14777.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14805.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這個就是必須要靠執政者的魄力來面對你說社會共識這幾項不可能會有因為他一定會有人出來反對費率提高的部分勞動部還沒有定案請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14806.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14833.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
就是這幾年我先講就是勞工的退休生活特別是以戰後嬰兒潮這一輩的人的觀念他們在多數我不是說全部多數在職業生涯裡面他是沒有自己儲蓄投資的觀念的所以他們信任國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14834.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14845.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
他們覺得國家會給他特別是勞保年金推出以後他們信任國家會給他們一個在物質生活上的最低保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14846.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14873.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
所以為什麼我一直對勞保年金的問題非常的重視其實是因為我身邊真的有很多澎湖當然在地的勞工不多可是旅外多為什麼因為澎湖早期就生活困苦也沒就業機會外出沒有主產大概都是一輩子當勞工我很不希望看到這樣類似的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14876.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14896.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
工作為社會國家奉獻了一輩子結果他的晚年連最低的生活保障都沒有那假如說費率的部分你還沒有決定那延後退其實現在已經高齡化是全球已開發國家都會面臨的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14897.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14913.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
高齡化伴隨的就是身體狀況其實也都保持的還可以所以有很多國家的年金會從延後退休年齡開始譬如說德國跟美國大概都已經調整到67歲連中國啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14918.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14940.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
今年也要延後退休年齡新加坡、英國、日本也都在年齡我想要請教一下部長有沒有可能我們現在當然可以透過勞資雙方協議這個是議定的這個不是法定的我現在講的是有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14943.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14965.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
勞動部的政策在法定的退休年齡做延後的政策跟姚委員說沒有的確這段時間其實也蠻多人提到這個延後退休的議題我們也看到有些國家其實已經開始了這個延後退的這個做法也都引起很大的反彈是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14969.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14995.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
所以確實我們其實現在也在收集其實各方的意見因為其實延後退也有分強制的部分延後退還是自願性的部分延後退就是議定嘛所以我想我們其實現在也在收集一些各方針對延後退看法的意見那再進行一些評估不過就確實這個議題就像剛剛委員說的其實在社會上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14996.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15012.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
各方看來都可能有很大的差距那這個調高費率未定延後退休也還要討論那我簡單因為時間的關係我簡單再問就是因為財政收支劃分法的修正會不會影響到明年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15025.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15047.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
政府的撥補撥補勞保年金的虧損 會不會應該說因為確實勞保的撥補它在我們整體的這個財快的制度裡面它並不屬於法定支出因為它不屬於法定支出的確是有可能會有影響的但是我們會盡力爭取我們會盡力爭取能夠維持跟過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15052.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15054.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
至少是相近的水位部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15060.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15087.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
會影響的話就是動會越來越大老闆的財務黑洞越來越大然後問題會一直留著當然可能在我們的任期內都不用面對到可是總有一天會面對所以我最後還是要跟勞動部建議也跟召委建議所以說 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15088.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15102.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
勞保撥補之所以是非法訂支出是因為勞保基金的裁員裡面我們沒有把政府撥補列入裁員之一這個第一點我們假如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15105.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15125.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
因為我個人是有提修法版本的所以我增加了勞保裁員的項目增加了政府撥補把政府撥補的責任法定化然後我也同時把 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15129.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15145.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
執政黨最不願意面對的政府負擔最終責任入法我覺得假如把這兩個把這個版本拿來討論趕快通過那就變成法定支出那以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15147.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15173.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
楊永第一個我想對於大家在講到最終責任的入法我想我們是持開放的態度我們並沒有不願意面對其實是持開放的態度所以你們不會提版本可是委員的版本你們是競表贊同的我可以不可以競表尊重然後持開放的態度那我就也拜託召委就是趕快排因為我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15176.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15197.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
其實誰執政都不大可能讓勞保倒因為勞保涉及了台灣二分之一的人口的生活權益不可能讓他倒可是與其空口說白話不如把它明文化與其 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15199.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15219.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
一直對著全國的人民說有政府在勞保就不會倒那不如我們就把他入法這個是我的建議啦我相信還有很多相關的問題是我們在這個委員會不斷討論的也希望勞動部這邊不要每一次對每一個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15227.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15241.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
你們都沒有堅定的政策決定我再重申任何一項改革像當初軍工教育連改我也不相信這個是社會大眾的公式 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15243.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15254.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
只是說執政者願不願意下定決心去面對而已好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長來 最後一個許新穎委員質詢謝謝主席 本席請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15275.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15296.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
薛恩好部長好 本席也要感謝楊耀委員前面在剛好本席來了以後他所質詢的也是本席想要救教部長的因為我們都面對廣大的勞工朋友那我想勞工朋友他們這個每天打拚他們也希望他們的打拚最後不會落空嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15297.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15315.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
所以我們有關這個勞保年金最終責任入法這件事 養老委員有提版本 本席也有提版本那我們希望把這個撥補能夠法制化 那政府可以負這個最後支付的責任 這個可以入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15316.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15340.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那因為去年這個卓院長剛上任的時候本席在總諮詢的時候卓院長就有承諾要將政府最後支付責任入法列為最優先考慮的事項那您剛剛也公開的表達說您對這個政府最後支付責任入法是持開放的態度那本席要請教你你跟卓院長針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15343.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15362.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這麼一千多萬的勞工關心的事情那卓院長也公開承諾過您也持開放態度你們有討論過嗎還有你們目前的共識是如何我想現在不管是行政院或勞動部我們對這個議題是持開放態度我們認為是可以做一些研議討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15364.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15391.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
開放跟研議那就是沒有結果所以你們那剛剛楊耀委員他還很客氣提說你們沒有這個提版本那本席還希望我們勞動部也可以提版本行政院可以有版本所以你們你們提開放態度沒有作為那其實就就在欺騙民眾所以或者是你們沒有版本沒關係那你們有沒有一個期程或你們目前的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15393.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15422.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
想法跟我們報告齁其實在應該是五月中的一次委員會的時候其實我想衛環委員會裡面有做成一個組決議齁這組決議是請我們針對這個最終責任入法的這個可行性齁那三個月內對不對來進行評估對那我們也在啟動這個評估OK所以三個月後我們應該可以得到一個好消息因為開放嘛然後這個卓院長又列為最優先事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15424.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15451.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
可以得到一個可行性評估可以努力吧我們一定要替勞工來爭取啦好那再來就是有關這個最低工資的部分我想您身為勞動部長您一定也知道我們很多的勞工朋友都希望這個我們的最低工資呢那能夠實際的反映實際生活的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15452.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15462.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那所以我們大家一直認為說這個修正的決策的公式是不是可以更符合實際的現況針對這個部分 部長你們這邊有沒有什麼作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15468.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15487.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
這些相關的公式目前其實都是按照最低工資法的修訂的程序來進行所以其實這個月的應該月底其實也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15488.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15493.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
來針對這例工資召開諮詢會來瞭解勞資是諮詢會還是審議會諮詢會那有關諮詢會或審議會外界也認為說不夠公開透明有沒有可能這個諮詢會或審議會他可以向立法院這個開會可以直播或錄影 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15508.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15524.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
有可能嗎?那個跟文說明其實先因為這個諮詢會也是勞資包括學界專業界一起加入一起通一起加入的勞資雙方還有學界嘛那我想我們的會計其實也都有都有上網公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15526.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15545.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這個過程決策過程可以開放公開嗎我想這裡面沒有什麼太多的秘密所以其實是可以的可以考慮公開我們其實把會議紀錄的部分我們都有公開上網的那再來就是說一般勞工認為勞方的代表比例是否足夠有可能再增加嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15546.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15561.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
呃勞方的比例或各方的比例其實這都應該是規範在就就在法律公司法裡面你們都按照那個法定好那所以現在大家希望說整個運作的過程決策的過程外界可以呃公開透明可以知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15562.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15581.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
在這個會議裡面他的會議紀錄或者是應該發言的紀錄其實也都有公開的他是重點紀錄還是發言的完整的發言紀錄紀錄是紀錄是重點嘛對那如果是這樣的話不能公開嗎公開啦上網公開啦我是說開會的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15585.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15611.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
我想我們沒有要在這裡面做任何的隱藏但是它既有的公開的程序包括剛剛說結論的部分或發言的紀要其實我們都公開我想這裡面是用很開大門走大路的方式我本期也是反映一些勞方的心聲大家覺得也想了解在這個開會的過程到底是怎麼樣的一個審議過程我想很多人也想知道所以你們是覺得紀錄就好也不需要公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15612.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15640.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
不是不需要公開我們其實已經針對這些發言的紀要各方發言家我們把它公開上網了我們已經這部分是有公開的你的發言紀要會議紀錄公開了那現在我的問題是那這個有沒有可能會議過程可以公開嗎有困難嗎應該不難以現在的科技就很簡單有個鏡頭有個網路這可能不是不一定是技術上面的問題但是我們可能要再研議包括這裡面其實有會有很多不同的不同方面的委員這樣子所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15641.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15665.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
所以你的意思是委員他們不希望公開我不是這樣說可是我說關於公開或公開到什麼程度的議題我想還是要表達我們現在已經公開到會議紀錄跟發言紀要這裡面並不是黑箱沒關係你們也許可以在之後的會議也可以徵詢一下如果委員們沒意見覺得可以的話我們還是希望朝向這方面我想我們可以討論一下對討論一下好謝謝好謝謝許委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15673.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15701.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
本次會議詢答全部結束委員林德福圖前期所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本次會議到此結束現在散會 |