| IVOD_ID |
16724 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16724 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-22,20-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第2次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第2次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-02T08:30:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-02T10:50:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:19:15 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d7dcd1dfdf6b0e5225e5a7d9476abbdb3fdab1a38f0d348c07ce46bf4b0352fc25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、財政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(二)委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員葉元之等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員葛如鈞等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(六)委員蔡其昌等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(七)委員王美惠等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(八)委員吳思瑤等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(九)委員郭國文等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十)委員張雅琳等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十一)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等 17 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十三)委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員林宜瑾等28人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案等案。
二、審查(一)委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(二)委員林思銘等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(三) 委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(四)委員林倩綺等19人擬具「運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案」案。(五)委員陳素月等 17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(六)委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案。 (七)委員陳秀寳等24人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(八)委員萬美玲等16人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。(九)委員羅美玲等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十一)委員葉元之等20人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。(十二) 委員李柏毅等17人擬具「運動彩券發行條例第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:45 - 10:50:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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報告委員會初期委員13人已達法定人數現在開會首先我們進行報告事項請議事委員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1779.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1808.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化財政委員會第一次聯席會議議事錄時間中華民國一一四年四月九日上午九十二分至下午一時十三分地點本院群選樓一零一會議室出席委員柯之恩委員等二十人請教委員顏坤衡委員一人內席委員楊瓊英等十五人內席人員教育部部長鄭英耀率同有關人員法務部參事王南軍內政部警政署刑事警察局警政監廖宗鴻 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1809.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1814.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席林昭吉委員 議員討論事項審查行政院 函請審議運動財權發行條例第21條及21條之一條文修正草案等9案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1823.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1845.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
僅進行詢問本次議程採訪的詢問有委員柯志恩等19人提出質詢京津教育部部長鄭英耀及相關人員及其答覆說明另有委員蘇清泉 黃潔 林沛翔 林德福 顏寬恆 羅明才提出質詢書面質詢決議一 報告及詢問完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並看登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1846.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1863.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
3.對委員諮詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,請相關機關監修以順便答覆4.運動採取發行條例,相關修正草案令定期繼續審查5.本次會議一事入,授權主席確認後及上傳立法院全球資訊網公開,通過臨時提案兩項,宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1874.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1898.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問各位委員 上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處好 沒有 好 議事錄確定那今天的議程是一 繼續審查運動彩券發行條例相關修正草案共17案行政院函請審議運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案二 委員審發會等19人擬拒 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1902.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1924.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
運動彩券發行條例第二條及第21條條文修正草案3.委員葉元芝等19人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第二條條文修正草案4.委員葛無鈞等20人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第二條及第21條條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1933.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1955.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
5.委員羅廷偉等17人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條質疑條維修人草案6.委員蔡其昌等16人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第2條及第21條條維修人草案委員王美惠等24人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1957.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1972.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
之一條維修人草案委員吳思瑤等18人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條之一條維修人草案委員郭國文等17人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員張雅玲等18人擬拒運動財券發行條例第二條及 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1986.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2011.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
21條及21條之一條文修正草案委員吳麗華等17人擬具運動彩券發行條例第二條第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員鍾嘉斌等21人擬具運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員吳佩儀等21人擬具運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2012.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2032.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
委員林玉璟等28人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員李昆城等24人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員柯之恩等19人擬拒運動財券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條維修人草案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2040.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2065.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
范雲等19人米軍運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案第二審查運動彩券發行條例相關修正草案共12案委員蔡義瑜等18人米軍運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員林思明等20人 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2067.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2088.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你具運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員洪孟凱等16人你具運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員林倩琦等19人你具運動彩券發行條例部分條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2090.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2096.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委員陳素月等17人擬具運動彩券發行條例第二條及第二十一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2098.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2109.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
及第21條之一條維修人草案委員郭玉琴等18人擬拒運動彩券條例第21條條維修人草案委員陳秀寶等24人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第二條第21條第21條之一運動條維修人草案委員萬美玲等16人 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2122.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2148.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
拟据运动彩券发行条例第二条及第21条条文修认草案委员罗美林等17人拟据运动彩券发行条例第二条及21条及21条之一条文修认草案台湾民众党党团拟据运动彩券发行条例第二条第21条及第21条之一条文修认草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2150.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2167.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
委員葉仁芝等20人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案委員李博義等17人擬拒運動彩券發行條例第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2170.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2185.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好 那我們今天就針對以上這些條文這些修正草案來進行逐條審查那首先先來介紹在場官員先介紹在場委員我們看到范雲委員柯之恩委員郭育晴委員吳麗華委員劉書斌委員葉元芝委員吳佩奕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2200.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2228.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
葛如君 張偉謝榮介委員羅廷偉委員好 我們介紹我們與會的官員鄭英耀部長體育署鄭世忠署長法治署鄭乃文處長法務部汪南軍參事內政部警政署刑事警察局廖宗鴻警政監好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2231.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2255.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本案已於114年4月9日詢答完畢那新增委員蔡易瑜等12人的提案版本那就不再進行詢答並入本次的共同審查委員若臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2256.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2264.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
現在審查運動彩券發行條例相關修正草案進行逐條審查請議事人員宣讀條文內容並進行討論討論時若有新增修正動議再請議事人員一併宣讀運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2285.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2313.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
運動改建發行條例部分條文修正草案委員林倩琦等提案第一條第一項未修正增訂第二項本條例由主管機關統籌推動運動產業及體育發展政策之執行委員沈發慧等提案葉元芝等提案葛如君等提案蔡其昌等提案林倩琦等提案張雅琳等提案吳立華等提案吳佩義等提案陳樹悅等提案萬美玲等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2314.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2343.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
羅美玲等提案陳秀寶等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條均為本條例之主管機關為運動部行政院提案第二十一條除第一項中詐訴後增進文字利誘第二項拒守增修正為意圖營利或三人以上共同犯前項之罪者增訂第三項犯第一項之罪因而致人於死者處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2344.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2361.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
致送商者處三年以上十年以上有期徒刑各得併科新台幣兩千萬元以上五千萬元以下罰金原第三項第一為第四項並修正為第一項及第二項之未稅犯罰資原第四項刪除其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2362.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2385.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
委員審判會等提案第21條 除第一鄉中紮訴後增訂文字利誘好各位委員那我們就現在開始來進行逐條審查那首先我們來看第一條第一條由委員林倩琦等19人的修正條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2386.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2399.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第一條 第一條是林倩琦委員這邊來提出那第一條林倩琦委員提出的第一條第二項的修正那 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2401.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2420.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對 那林建啟委員不在現場所以這一條是不是請部長或者是署長要不要做一些說明有關林委員的提案增列第二項民電本條例由主管機關統籌推動運動產業運動體育發展政策的執行一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2425.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2433.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個部分已經是本來就有的存在的沒有另予規定的必要因此建議維持現行條文好那我們這一條林倩琦的這個修正條文我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2440.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2467.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不予處理啦那就依照原版 依照原版建議維持現行條文好 那就這樣子通過啦好 那我們再來進行第二條第二條有審發會等19人葉元芝等19人葛如君等20人蔡其昌等16人 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2469.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2477.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
張雅琳等18人 吳麗華等17人 吳珮儀等21人林倩琦等19人 陳素月等17人 陳秀寶等24人萬美玲等16人 羅美玲等17人 台灣民眾黨還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2495.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2514.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
以上的委員們提出的第二條的修正條文那第二條是改主管機關為運動部那這個委員有沒有要發表意見的第二條有關於第二條要改主管機關為運動部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2518.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2539.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那本席的看法有齁 來 張雅玲委員威逼利誘手段及第二項聚首增訂易讀盈利或其餘未修正第三項同行政院提案第三項第四項未修正原第三項一至第五項必修正為第一項及第二項未遂犯法之 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2545.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2565.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員您切其等 提案第21條第一項及第二項 統行政院提案第一項及第二項 增訂第三項犯第一項或第二項之罪 致人重傷死亡者處七年以上有期徒刑 得罪的前項等到我們財政委員會的周嘉賓委員他財政交委耶第一項或增訂文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2573.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2596.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好,那我可以問問題了嗎?我詢問一下就說因為這個教育部這邊提的是說建議配合運動部成立期程以公告管轄變更的方式處理這個可以說明清楚會用怎麼樣的方式來進行嗎?因為過去我們在修一些相關的法令的話都會明定嘛所以要用這種方式處理的話到底可不可以簡單說明一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2597.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2603.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主管機關委運動部9月9號就要掛牌不然到時還是要再修法一次還是必須修好沒關係那我們請那個提議書說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2621.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2646.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
跟委員說明一下因為行政院已經有公告9月9日國民體育日為運動部的施行日期但由於運動部的施行日期目前也還沒就是還沒有到啦現在還沒有到9月9號所以我們這邊因為法規也很多所以我們過去的做法就是建議以公告變更管轄的方式來進行處理那當然如果說委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2647.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2662.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有堅持在這邊用運動部改成運動部為主管機關的話變成是下面的最後一條法我們可能要改成說這個本條例的施行修正要施行要在9月9號才開始,不然會有矛盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2667.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2692.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好 那我們部長說明一下因為我想這一個還是要請委員支持等運動部成立以後才用這個公告來變更的一個方式因為我們採見並不是新訂的法到這個要運動部以後成立才適應是目前就在施行的法我們只是勿問的修正所以以現在的管轄它還是隸屬在這個教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2694.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2709.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以我們如果現在改為可能會有一個空窗期對其中間所產生的一些運動採建相關的一些業務的推動可能有一些造成困擾那以上補充,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2716.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2734.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那體育署部長的說明很明確就是說還是建議希望維持現行條文那我們主管機關的部分日後我們這個透過公告變更管轄的方式處理的方式就好了好 那我們第二條就不予修正維持現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2737.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2745.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
因為剛剛部長講說因為現在還沒改運動部嘛所以現在改的話會矛盾那我的問題就是因為現在是不處理所以是等到919號運動部成立之後然後這個今天沒有處理的條文還會再拿來處理還是說就不理他 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2763.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2779.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
還是就一公告而已不是不是你到時候運動部成立之後還是會有矛盾因為他會變成本條例主管機關是教育部所以他還是會出現矛盾問題所以你要到時候要怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2781.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2798.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
剛剛署長的意思就是我回答一下好了其實議員講的是有他道理就是說我們公告管轄變更之後未來如果這個條文有需要再修正的時候我們再一併再來處理就可以了先公告就算數了 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2800.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2802.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
21條有行政院的版本 審發會等19人 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2820.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2820.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2851.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2877.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
16人 林倩琦等19人 陳素月等17人郭雨琴等18人 陳秀寶等24人 萬美玲等16人台灣民眾黨還有 羅美玲等21人 葉元芝等21人李柏宜等17人齁其實我們每個委員提的版本都有齁好 那我們這一條要發言的數據 等一下齁不好意思 不然這樣好不好 我們這一 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2879.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2899.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們這一趴先從前面來啦那我們下一趴還從後面來好那我們就范雲委員柯之恩委員郭盂晴委員吳麗華委員劉淑敏委員妳要發言嗎沒有齁那就葉元芝 鍾嘉斌然後吳佩奕委員還有葛國軍招委還有羅廷偉好 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2902.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2928.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那我就先發言那我這個版本那事實上是跟願版一致那其實就是要增加利誘這個部分還有意圖盈利的部分那這個我想這個利誘的部分其實是就是這一次的一個關鍵重點那待會也許就是教育部或是體育署這邊可以回應一下目前遇到的困難比較是怎麼樣那我們這樣是不是能夠完全確定能夠處理相關的問題以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2932.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2954.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那我们接下来有请克兹恩委员好那我想今天审查的这个运彩条例那个体育署主要是配合我们上会几年通过的运产这个条例那我想比照这个加重影响运动赛事的公平的相关的刑责跟罚金我想文字上跟内容上面大家是不会有太大的意见了 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2955.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2983.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
只是呢这次修法你说要为我真的觉得这次正是来做业绩的好不好因为基本上上次都已经通过了那我比较在乎说到底对我们这个社会的影响到底是如何啦我想说上次我们所提到的运产已经说已经涵盖所有该被重罚的赛事那体育署若要在运彩上做这个比条例上面比照修法我想我们都可以尊重特别是有院版了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2983.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3011.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
但是呢我比较提出来是运采是比较运产那我们很多知道我们比较想知道等一下阔席腾体育署利用这个机会可以来做一个说明体育署到底有没有按照我们当时修法的精神跟附带的决议来做一个执行特别是我还是要提出来我们甚至提到了这个运动这个防堵的信托基金这件事情那时候我们朝野大基本上都是一致通过决议要求体育署到三到六月来完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3011.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3038.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那我今年四月的時候也在教委會的時候還問署長到底有沒有跟這些運動工會溝通那署長也跟我們講說是有跟工會做過一些聯繫啦但是呢我想我質詢之後呢就得到這個體育署是在我們事後才去跟這個運動員工會來開會所以呢而且還在會議上針對當初修法的時候我們對於體育署種種的要求這個部分我真的還是覺得是否一定要等到這個共識你才會來做所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3040.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3062.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
这些的附带决议等等之类的等一下可能书长也是要跟我们说明一下虽然我们有做了这么多的这个法律条文上面的这些修正但是真正的执行特别在一些我们这些所谓的运动的协会这个地方所造成这么多的一些的问题包括昨天庄志渊的这个怎样的一个事件我想都是我们在 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3062.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3086.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
讨论这样的一个之后呢那个执行度跟那个力度还有我们当初说法的精神是要维护运动员的这个基本的权益跟他们基本所应该要的部分所以我觉得这个部分等一下可能很多人也会有意见但是呢憨不郎当的21条跟21条文字上不会有意见但是执行程度还有对于协会所造成的影响的保障我觉得这一点体育署势必要把它说明清楚对 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3088.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3105.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 那我們現在請郭玉琴委員好 這個21條當然跟原版一樣就是上面的利誘跟意圖盈利這一塊那我比較擔心的就是利誘這個詞如果沒有一個明確的定義有可能會產生一些灰色的一個地帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3106.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3122.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那比方說安排出國比賽算不算或者是說保障續約算不算這種鼓勵性質的或者是幫忙轉介到其他的這個隊伍算不算那有一些情境它的界線是比較模糊的那如果是私下去談有條件的鼓勵會不會也被錯認為所謂的這個利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3127.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3141.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
所以在這個解釋上面如果有執法人員他是要擴大解釋的話那會不會引起有很多的選手可能也會有所謂的寒蟬效應或其他的團隊內部的一個管理獎勵的制度會不會受到阻礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3142.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3169.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那另外就是那個意圖盈利的部分就要加重處罰這樣子好執行嗎這是我比較擔心的部分那實際上就是要怎麼樣做一個判斷怎麼樣來做一個舉證那我們希望就是能夠更清楚就是所謂的意圖盈利的加重的一個規定是不是可以搭配其他可以判斷的一些事實的標準那有沒有具體的一個查緝的一個工具還有一些協助的一個技術這個執法單位讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3171.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3198.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
執法單位可以查明他的一個動機啦那這個是我比較擔心的這兩個部分喔那昨天當然講到這個體育結構長期的一個壓抑選手喔那保障這個應該是說保障選手的部分喔那尤其是集權協會文化是真的叫冰山的一角啦昨天的事件真的是冰山一角喔那接下來其實我相信有很多的重點是在於改革喔那希望昨天的這件事件不要變成是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3200.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3200.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好 接下來我們請吳麗華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3227.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3253.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
謝謝主席不論是我們1月增訂的修訂的運動產業發展條例又或者是今天的運採發行條例我想都是為了健全我們的運動產業所以賽事的公平性是很重要的所以這一次修法的部分我們也同樣的支持教育部的版本就是關於像利誘的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3254.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3276.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
就規範變成刑責那又或者是基於盈利的部分因為他的破壞是更嚴重的所以呢也希望加重處罰那另外呢像那種置人於死的其實呢我也在第三項就特別加重其刑謝謝好我們接下來請葉元之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3278.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3301.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
同樣我這邊也是就是配合運產條例的修訂把那個利誘加進去那另外就是如果說有犯罪然後致死部分的話我這邊修的是最高制處無期徒刑那也想要了解一下行政機關如果這樣的法律在執行上會不會有什麼困難等一下請那個行政機關說明一下 謝謝好 接下來請中央編委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3302.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3322.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
好 謝謝現在我們要討論是運載條例第21條以及第21條之一現在是21條那我先講21條那麼21條這個部分請大家可以看到我們條例最大表第5頁因為行政院版跟本席的條文差別在我加入了在第三項之後加入第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3323.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3341.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
第四項的內容是說擁有運動團隊經營權之法人團體及其代表人管理人與相關從業人員應該有一些的義務為者呢可以處以行政法當時本席在委員會進行詢問答的時候有提出了兩點那麼我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3345.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3373.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
教育部呢也針對本席的答覆呢給我的書面回應那當時我提出的一個是比例那比例跟21條無關但是呢跟21條本席提出的第四項有關的呢這裡面呢我這邊唸給大家聽請教育部仔細聽你們這裡提到說會隱匿或抗拒者為法人團體之代表人管理人或相關從業人員均為自然人而非法人團體之行為故違反規定者為自然人非法人或團體好了本席提出是提醒說 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3374.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3394.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
對 沒有錯 如果是刑責的話你對於自然人來刻以刑責有很大的嚇阻力譬如說在這樣的運動經濟當中涉及類似放水 炸堵的行為這當然自然人要負起刑責但是相關的體育團體好啦 我就舉例來說了像昨天我們看到我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3396.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3408.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
教育部呢非常有魄力的對於桌協發出了一個很嚴厲的警告要求他要怎樣要道歉道歉值幾毛錢真正團體會痛的是什麼是你們的第二點你們凍結他的補助但是凍結補助傷了誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3417.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3443.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
馬上第二天我們就看到啦 裝置運結起來啦請教育部手下留情啊整個桌球界因為他們這個事件如果因此而被教育部凍結補助是全體的桌球界的運動員他們擔心去蒙受因為協會的不當行為遭到教育部的行政處分我強調教育部凍結這個補助款它不是一個行政裁罰喔它是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3444.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3454.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
行政上的一種單項的處分但是我這個條文第四項說的是什麼可以刻以他們行政法 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3456.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3484.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
行政法行政法不是針對自然人是針對法人跟社團我不斷的在提醒說這個第四項要提醒教育部的是說在運彩條例當中教育部手上如果沒有對桌協的補助款他今天對你的所謂的鄭重道歉嚴重道歉他根本可以置之不理啊今天體育署你今天可以這麼嗆聲的說要求桌協鄭重的跟選手道歉你的底氣在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3485.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3502.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你的底氣在於握有桌鞋我們政府的補助款嘛你連處罰他罰還的能力都沒有啊你連處罰他罰還的能力都沒有結果你動他的補助款是桌鞋受害嗎不是啊是長期以來在我們桌球界裡面的選手跟這些運動團隊受害啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3505.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3520.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以我不斷在提醒我看到教育部給我這個答覆我傻眼了運採條例當然我們要防什麼防打放水球打假球我們防止他詐賭這些組頭這些球員都是自然人可以行則沒有錯但是這些相關協會的縱容 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3524.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3549.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
你行政機關你拿他沒辦法你動了他的補助款也不是他受害不是他從口袋裡掏出來的如果今天你有行政法這個桌協你罰他一百萬你罰他一千萬誰要拿錢出來不是選手受害是協會要負責繳交這個行政法所以你們在這裡也給我附上了司法院的一個答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3551.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3560.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
剛好我上會期在司法制委員會司法院的書面意見我是可以接受但是我在這裡他這裡說的不治正己罪我同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3561.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3590.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
因為對於自然人對於自己所犯的犯行我們要求他主動配合調查這個是有違反我們不自證己罪的原則但是我這裡強調的不是自然人我強調的是協會協會的負責人他要如何為他的疏失縱容甚至包庇我們怎麼樣行政機關可以及時給他行政處罰所以待會我希望教育部能夠針對類似像桌寫明白的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3591.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3607.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
危害了選手的權益的時候我是以運彩條例為例他在其他的事項上在選手的競技培育過程當中這些協會有些山頭他們來侵犯選手的權益他們妨礙了我們參與運動賽事觀賞的觀眾的權益的時候你除了刑罰之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3614.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3636.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你有沒有行政法的手段所以我在這裡呼籲第21條關於行政法的手段教育部行政院不要輕言放棄不然的話你們下次再遇到不管是哪一個鞋網鞋桌鞋什麼鞋他不拿你的補助款你跟他一點辦法都沒有了所以請你們好好的思考一下就這點後面呢再統一的做聰明答覆謝謝調文你的21條你的行政法寫在哪裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3644.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3655.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
在哪裡 我們看一下滑板呢第七頁第五頁也有儲新台幣200萬以上 1000萬以上的滑板 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3682.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3695.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我安顧一下那個嘉賓的喔因為我的行政法也是有我的行政法也是放在上面但是原版的是把它拿掉的好 那我是不是接下來再請再請那個吳佩玉委員發言喔 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3698.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3701.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
待會我們再討論 不好意思待會我們等下討論那個條文的時候我們再來 對 對好 我們先請先請吳佩玉委員發言好 我的提案版本是在第二頁那我同樣是認為原來的版本的第四項就是有關於球團或者是法人等等團體去妨礙司法調查的時候我們要如何處罰的問題那因為在 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3728.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3731.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
舊的條文當中第四項是關於行政法而在新版的條文當中政院把這一段第四項整個拿掉了那他們的說明是說因為這一個若有妨害司法調查已經同時觸犯刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3745.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3758.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就是以刑法而處之那我認同這個精神但是因為民眾其實不會看到立法說明所以我的版本的第四項我的寫法是一樣是把第四項寫進去那把它所觸犯的刑法相關的規定把它明確地列在這一個21條當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3765.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3782.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
就不會有說民眾看到舊的跟新的一對照以為說本來球團或是法人有妨礙司法調查的時候要處罰結果現在新版反而不用其實不是這樣而是我們以更重的刑法來處罰他所以我的第四項是把刑法一起寫進去好 謝謝好 那我們再來請葛國軍召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3791.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3814.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
好 謝謝昭偉這次的運採條例的修法我想各個委員的版本其實跟行政院的版本沒有太大的差異所以大部分的文字本席也尊重院版這次大家也就是希望能夠為運動的產業還有相關的東西來往正向發展來前進院版剛剛有提到一些一事不兩罰的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3816.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3837.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個大原則框架上本席也是不反對畢竟修法的目的是要嚇阻這些意圖破壞賽事公平的這些人那如果刑事訴訟法跟刑法有相關規範那刪除現行的法案規定也無不可但是剛剛也有委員有提到就是實務上可能會出現不是自然人的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3838.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3862.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那原條文的第四項或許也就有保留的必要那這邊也是一樣也希望請教育部再多做一點說明 謝謝好 我們接下來請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝昭偉我想也是尊重院版但是的確剛剛有委員所提到那樣子的狀況我們還是要重視所以待會也請教育部主管機關一起來回應 謝謝好 那張雅玲委員要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3867.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3890.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我補充一下就是說我突然想起來我們上次在修的時候我們在講到利誘這兩個字的時候司法院有提到說這可能在實務上面會有一點難判斷的樣子像上次有提到類似這樣子的意見啦所以我想說那到底我們上次修法之後有沒有造成什麼樣子的問題是不是也可以做一些相關的說明這樣子但我們這次再放進去的時候才不會才可以避免這樣子的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3893.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3908.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好那本席也有對21條進行修正那基本上還是跟原版相同那我想我們大家幾乎都對於這一條提出各自的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3908.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3914.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那也幾乎都跟院版大同小異那我想大家的想法都是一樣喔就是說因為我們運動產業發展條例已經有增訂第七條之三喔就是要新增妨礙運動競技賽事公平性的太陽喔那可是因為我們運採條例運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3927.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3954.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
券發行條例並沒有跟進所以我們這一次特別把利誘這個太陽納入那並且意圖透過這些犯罪的太陽來盈利的行為也納入懲處喔那當然也考量到行使這些犯罪太陽而導致加重結果的時候應該要加重刑責我想這個條文的基本精神在這裡好 那如果那這樣我們是不是就是請體育署署長來做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3956.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3968.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
有關委員提到 包括范委員 郭委員 葉委員 張委員跟趙委這邊提到一些關於利誘跟意圖盈利是否加重的部分這邊是不是可以請保護部的參事來幫忙先做一個解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3973.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4000.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
主席跟各位委員各位先進大家好就委員們剛剛提問的有關這個利誘跟意圖盈利的部分那我們這裡有做一個研析也跟委員們報告對於利誘的解釋的確我們現在那個刑事實體法除了運產條例的第七條之三第二項之外我們過去是沒有利誘當構成要件在刑事實體法裡面那 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4002.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4010.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
目前除了只有一個入海空軍刑法的第46條是唯一有這個用利誘當作構成要件的刑事罪名 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4011.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4039.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
但是我們搜尋司法實務目前也還沒有以利誘罪名定罪的個案那我們的初步意見是說因為過去沒有這樣的一個構成要件這個犯罪樣態但是現在我們的一些犯罪情境可能利誘是有必要入法的這個狀況那我們的初步意見是這個利誘的重點應該是不在於那個金錢的流動可能不是只以收受財務或者是利益為要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4041.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4069.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
只要有以財務或利益引誘就有可能成罪就是不是以收受來當它的構成要件可能只要有財務或利益的引誘就有成罪的可能可是因為這個硬產條例才剛三讀通過不久好像不到半年那對於這個利誘的解釋我們是需要實務形成一些判決案例見解才能夠進一步的判斷那這個部分只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4070.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4093.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
可是個案的判斷沒有辦法一概而論那就檢察官而言如果知道有犯罪嫌疑我們就會調查那如果有這個主任有犯罪嫌疑我們會提起就會起訴那法院必須是以沒有合理懷疑才能判決有罪那這個部分判斷的時候我們相信過去的經驗如果有一個新的一個狀況其實都是會綜合判斷包括他的動機 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4094.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4107.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
目的還手段一切形狀來做綜合的判斷跟整理那這樣子應該還是要可能有待實務累積案例的見解才能夠框界線這個利誘要怎麼樣去認定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4112.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4134.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那意圖營利待會再說嗎還是現在直接說好那有關意圖營利的這個部分呢有委員認為說這個韓式這個韓社範圍會太廣但請委員應該是不用擔心因為我們在刑事法裡面已經有很多條文都是有意圖營利的包括防害風化包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4136.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4151.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
鴉片罪 包括賭博罪 妨害秘密罪 妨害信隱私不實影像這些罪其實都有意圖營利的當構成要件 其實這過去對檢察官來講我們要舉證證明他是有沒有意圖營利 這本來就是檢察官的責任同樣的運產條例已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4156.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4166.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
跟這個已經三讀硬產條例一樣好對於意圖盈利作為構成要件也還一點點時間還沒有形成有帶食物的案例來累積所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4167.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4188.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
還沒有辦法一概而論在這個運採條例跟運產條例這部分有關意圖盈利到底要怎麼來做未來的判斷但是我們依照過去的經驗那法院判斷意圖盈利應該是會有主觀的範疑還有客觀的證據客觀的證據包括比如說相關共犯的通訊記錄還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4190.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4218.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
假設在這個意圖盈利的狀況我們這個投注標的他們的投注情形還有我們的賽事數據這些將來應該都是會是一個蒐證的重點來推定有沒有盈利的意圖那另外可能還有包括像如果被告有反證他有舉出來說他可以合理解釋他的資金來源然後比如說他就說他他雖然一直有在投注這個但是他這個是沒有對價關係他只是私人恩怨來放水那這個是不是意圖盈利那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4218.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4245.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
可以再就個案來做進行判斷那而且這個依照經驗法則認定是不是有達到這個沒有合理懷疑的程度這個法院都會做綜合判斷這個有待實務來累積案件的案例的判決見解以上好這樣有沒有委員好再嘉賓好嘉賓委員好再來柯志恩委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4249.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4276.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我想我尊重法務部的見解法務部見解是當你對原21條的條文當中原來的這些犯罪行為的樣態的界定未來怎麼依法來給他入罪這個我們是支持的但是剛剛本席所提的其實是要提醒教育部提醒運動體育署 未來的運動部其實原來的第四項其實不必然要跟前兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4277.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4297.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
前兩項的所謂的強暴脅迫詐訴或利誘或者是說這個意圖營利因為這些犯刑都是有刑法上 形式上可以認定的樣態去予以定罪但是今天一個職業運動會墮落到有球員放水有賭盤操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4298.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4313.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
有相關的人員去介入去從事這些不法行為其實它的組織經營環境必然的是相對的管理不周或甚至是鬆弛那麼因此對於這樣的組織這樣的協會這樣的運動團隊我們不要點任何一個有職業運動的現有的組織只要一旦發生對於該項運動的傷害是非常大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4324.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4350.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那難道當這種情況發生的時候這些球團這些組織的經營主體他們不用負起行政書士上的責任嗎那這種行為當然在單一條文當中前三項是刑法第四項是行政法但是我強調的是第四項的行政法我雖然是原條文保留但是我是希望能夠就行政法的內容跟它的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4351.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4371.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
界定跟前三項做一個區隔什麼區隔就是不是他去隱匿這個強暴脅迫詐欺的罪證不是而是說因為他的管理疏失他的行政懈怠以至於這樣的環境滋生當然對這樣的組織我們應該主管機關要對他刻意行政處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4372.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4400.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是這個意思不是說我現在保留源第四條說這些人呢從業人員呢要主動配合司法檢調的調查啦如果隱匿或抗拒呢還要再罰如果他是隱匿再抗拒當然這裡面就在刑法上就會一併克責了嘛根本不需要第四項的行政法嘛所以呢教育部這裡面說的齁第四點您可以給我的答覆說一行為同時觸犯刑事法律以違反行政法上義務的規定者依行政法律處罰之沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4400.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4416.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
如果按照原來第四條條文的設計它的確是不需要重複規定它是不需要重複規定但是我這裡講的是說這些組織啊它不見得是從事前兩項前三項的行為而是它基於它應該有的良善管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4416.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4443.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
他疏於管理有行政缺失因此我們是對這個組織另刻以行政罰不是對他的刑事責任再加上一個行政處分我想這個呢我是把它強調說這個第四項或許可以保留他行政法的精神但是規範的內容刻者的對象或者他的樣態跟前兩項或前三項可以做個區隔也就是說前三項的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4444.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4455.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
如果你是隱匿 那當然就是刑法上可以客處嘛不需要行政法嘛 但是我這裡講的行政法是什麼管理上的鬆散 怠慢甚至這樣的一個方式 不然的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4456.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4475.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們發現 其實我再講一次啦 這個處長也迫不及待了啦現在這些協會啊 會讓我們覺得很憤慨的是 以作協為例啦這些都是有職業運動潛力的選手他們的運動生也還不會僅止於代表國家或地方去爭取榮譽而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4476.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4494.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他們未來的運動生涯是有參與到職業運動的可能的縱使該項職業運動在本國還沒有產生但是這些協會的這些行為如果真的是有職業運動的環境存在的話這些協會跟組織就更為重要我們只要講一講啦這也坦白講啦過去曾經發生大型醜聞的是什麼國際組總嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4497.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4515.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
國際作動常常被爆出 各國際爆出這個黑金一雲啊 為什麼觀賞人口質疑運動的商業利益太龐大了所以這些組織就算不是直接涉入這些詐賭的行為本身也有縱容的一個責任行政機關當然應該要有克責以上我再次請教育部再三思 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4516.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4540.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
好我們再來請柯之恩委員然後再來郭雨琴我配意我覺得這個部分我們今天所審的是運動彩券是運彩條例不是運產條例我覺得這兩個還是有形式上的一個差別我們回到我們運彩條例的這個層面來說剛剛那個法務部裡面特別提到你有關於這個行政有關於利誘跟這個行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4541.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4562.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
利诱跟意图引力这两部分虽然我们现在部分的案例收集不是太多样态还不是那么多元但是摆在这个地方目前来说即使发生这样的状况你们还是有在执行上面法院上面还是有机可以来作为一个依据如果是这样的话因为我们运产 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4562.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4584.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
已经讨论过有很多关于这个层面然后目前为止也还没有发生部分那我的建议是在这个部分里面还是保留这个刚刚说的利诱跟意图盈利的这部分嘛起码要有一个时间点才会因为毕竟是上会期所发生的那至于行政法的部分因为刚刚宗教兵的委员是非常的在乎我觉得是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4585.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4601.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
谁要来澄清清楚我个人听起来是我们在讨论运动产业跟运动彩券这个形式上层次上面应该还是有一些的区隔否则如果我们是着力于这个地方大家都无解了那是不是这块我也想做一个澄清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4603.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4604.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
行政法的優勢是可以快速動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4622.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4647.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
就是在那個隱匿的部分其實不用等到比方說他還要調查然後起訴然後上法院整個所有的過程可能要一兩年以上那所以這個部分我想說這個行政法它是有實際必要的一個即時性啦那是不是能夠保留這個行政法還作為這個輔助的一個工具我想是不是這一點可以考慮這樣子好 以上好 再來吳佩儀吳佩儀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4649.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4656.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
因為我的版本也是希望可以保留第四項那我剛剛聽了宗教兵委員的說明之後我是支持他就是保留行政法的這一個處罰的規定那至於說這個我們例如說我們在擔心的是說我們現在修這個法就是希望打假球這種威脅利誘的情勢不要發生嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4673.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4674.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
但是他很有可能是在球團或是組織或是法人的經營的時候就成為也許是 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4681.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4706.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
造成後面這個不利的情勢的幫兇或者是推手甚至是有可能的他在管理上面如果不利的話那這個就不完全是直接對應到我們剛剛講的因為刑事刑法的那一條是只有妨礙調查對所以我覺得保留行政法這個手段給我們的行政部門還是很必要的那至於裡面訂定的這個項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4709.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4717.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
要怎麼樣去對齊我覺得是可以再討論但是我覺得直接把第四項行政法整個拿掉有可能造成的後果是我們現在所想像不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4719.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4743.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好那如果沒有人要發言我們就請提議署再說明來好謝謝各位委員剛剛的寶貴意見我想這邊我們回歸到今天的主要議題還是在運動彩券發行條例但不是著重在協會的治理的行為方面那第四項這部分其實它非常明確的就是針對第一項第二項的一些行為有隱匿 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4744.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4760.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
抗拒這樣子的違法行為那違法行為來講我們依照行政法法第26條第一項規定一個行為同時觸犯刑事法律以及違反行政法上義務規定者依刑事法處罰這個部分先以序明那既然 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4761.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4788.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我們在這個隱匿這部分我們在整個刑法上面都有它的處罰的規範可以運用而且也既有的檢查司法檢查機關調查程序這個過程當中應該由他們依照刑法及刑事訴訟法等相關規定來辦理主要是基於一事不兩罰的原則因此我們才會決定需要刪除行政處罰這樣的一個規定那這邊法務部有沒有要做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4793.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4817.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是 基本上我們這個問題其實我們回去也有仔細的思考過那我在這邊再跟委員們說明一下就是因為我們這個草案21條第一項第二項規範的行為已經是屬於刑事偵查程序對 大家都可以理解那前提就是處管機關如果例行介入很容易產生權限重疊或抽圖的地方那雖然說道交處罰條例35條有酒駕有行政罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4820.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4844.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然後可是他有搭配而且他的那個對象是有區隔的就是0.25以上才是刑事責任0.25以下0.15以上那個是行政法那前提他們會有行政法還是他這些行為已經有行政處罰在前面所以我們可以做後面的行政調查如果他不配合我們再做這個是一個系統一個體系齁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4846.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4865.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以一方面他是違法情節的輕重來區別 較重的是刑罰 較輕的行政罰那整個結構反映了行政罰有及時預防的必要性但是而且這個刑事處罰適用對象上也有明確的區隔那另外我要比較大家比較care的是這個部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4865.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4887.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
因為我們講行政處罰其實是講及時預防這個部分因為我們如果操縱比賽結果這種危害性雖然影響這個公眾的信任跟產業資訊但是老實講在調查這個部分其實不像酒駕立即危及人身安全這樣的一個特性那要調查這種犯罪的抗拒或盈利其實我們就是刑責上面就是有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4889.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4914.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
充分的強制處分權限包括搜索扣押傳喚這些措施他們如果抗拒調查那相關的行為是可以依照這個刑法或刑事送法防害公務執行來追究刑事責任不需要另外加行政處罰其實這樣子這樣的體系架構是比較正確但是有討論到法人跟團體他們就像治理的這個部分這個是有沒有必要主管機關來強化他的行政即時性還有加強主管機關的監理權限這個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4917.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4943.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
如果要這樣的話可能要審酌要不要導入先行政後司法這樣的一個處理模式那我們就必須修正調整相關條文的結構那優先由行政機關先進行調查採取然後再採收及時處理的效果那違法情節達一定程度的這個嚴重的時候我們再由司法機關進行追溯或進一步處理那這個部分我們本部就是尊重委員跟主管機關的政策決定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4947.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4972.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好 謝謝喔 謝謝那個我們法務部汪參事的說明那這樣好 嘉賓委員好 再聽完法務部的代表 對不起 因為剛劉淑冰 劉淑冰第一次發言不好意思 就這樣講因為我等一下聽到法務部的參事這樣講的話因為目前的這個立法主旨應該是先行事 然後行政對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4975.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4994.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
沒有 沒有 沒有 我就說你當初的目標就是說以刑事為主嘛 對不對因為是尊重主管機關對對對 就主管機關 對 但是可是聽說參事這樣講的話應該是說如果在一定的程度之下的時候應該就在行政間調查之後呢到一定程度的時候 然後再送刑事那這邊是尊重主管機關所以你這時候那個運動這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4999.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5008.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
運動這個這個局域署你這邊可能就是真的要給我們一些意見的就是說在這個情況之下你不要先放棄到你自己的一個主管的這樣一個職責那這樣也回應到剛才說的因為如果是個人等等都沒有問題可是如果是因為你自己卸責之後所導致而讓他這些在運採或是有這種有機可勝甚至球員跟那個外面的人員這樣子相勾結這種情況的時候我覺得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5024.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5032.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
配合的是法務部主管機關在法律上面未接還包括說行政上面處理的優先順序可能要請這個運動部就是體育署這邊要做一個你們的立場要先拿出來這樣 謝謝好 來 署長我跟各位報告委員因為今天我們實在是沒有辦法在現場去做這樣的區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5048.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5064.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那是不是我們可以今天就是我們先尊重醫院版的方式來進行那如果委員們也堅持的話是就用臨時動議的方式我們來進行研議那不然今天真的沒有辦法解決這件事情是不是 謝謝好 嘉賓 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5066.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5085.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
以上包括我們署長、科委員跟法務部代表的意見我就可以綜合來採納了首先我要再聲明一點職業運動是特許行業特許行業的監督管理俗稱的監理跟金融業的監理 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5087.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5113.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
無分二制啦其實呢主管機關在面對特許行業的管理的時候強度就比一般的人民自由組成的人民團體要來得高很多試想一個運動團體跟一個經營職業運動的組織何者的影響為大當然是特許行業啊那特許行業要靠什麼靠行政機關依行政裁罰的方式介入第二我再講一個大家我就不點名了日本的街運動發生一個醜聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5115.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5141.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
著名的主力選手的司機參與什麼?去簽賭簽賭是合法的啊但是你作為一個主力球員的司機你去參加賭盤你當然沒有不說是個醜聞嗎?這當然是個醜聞啊那球團要不要去管理呢?要不要限制這些球員他們本身限制他們參與這些投注的這些相關行為或相關人的接入呢?這些都是行政管理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5142.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5153.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
儘管會對於金融機構的負責人他的相關的一些資訊的透明跟揭露要求很嚴啊只要發生有一些問題除了先你來喝咖啡之外就是裁罰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5154.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5173.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我是覺得體育部 運動部也好 或者教育部也好對於特許行業的管理的想像 有一點單薄那我同意吉岡法務代表說很清楚了因為呢 第二十一條的法架構 它是前面的兩項的犯罪行為教唆啦 脅迫啦 強暴啦 利誘啦 這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5175.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5196.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那因為第四項是附著在這些犯罪行為樣態之下才產生的那當然可以用刑責來科處嘛,不需要行政法,我同意所以剛剛柯委員說沒有錯,今天我們談的是運產但是未來運動產業的管理其實運動產業組織本身,我們行政機關要有更強高度的規管 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5197.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5215.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
就像我說的日本職棒運動一樣球團可以容許主力球員的司機去簽嗎這當然是不可以的嘛但是目前我們現在有哪個球團他有這樣的規範儘管會對於銀行的內機內控啊他自己的內機內控如果沒有做好馬上援引43條馬上就給他開罰啦內機內控自己沒有做好就開罰啦還不需要你有實際的違法行為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5220.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5246.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以我是覺得呢剛剛署長所說的我覺得我們聯席委員會可以思考以附帶決議的方式我們刻意行政機關對於未來相關條文相關法律對於運動產業的相關組織要有更高強度的規管就像先行政後刑罰的方式來加以處理而不是只拘泥在21條的這些犯罪樣態的幫助犯而已我強調是這些如果是21條這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5247.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5254.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
犯罪樣態的幫助犯當然第四項可以省略他就直接用刑責方式來科處但是行政法對於運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5255.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5277.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
產業的組織經營者他不能夠放棄規管不能放棄行政處罰的強度所以你看我們原來的條文是訂多少訂到一千萬耶是訂到一千萬耶好所以我再請教育部在三四內建議我們聯席委員會可以思考剛剛署長所說的我們擬一個負債決議的方式來要求教育部要趕快的來從事後續的一個強化跟補強以上謝謝好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5282.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5287.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我想這樣這21條我想大家對院版的文字就像我們這個螢幕看到的應該都沒有什麼太大的問題那如果這樣的話是不是這個文字上我們就用院版的來做通過好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5302.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5316.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
至於剛剛嘉賓委員所提的我們等一下我們討論21條之一之後我們再來討論好不好因為其實嘉賓委員所說的都是所謂的運動產業的發展包括怎麼樣規範可是我們現在是在談運動彩券發行條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5324.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5333.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那當然 沒問題 我覺得這個等一下可以討論啦 好不好那我們就21條就先這樣按照院版文字通過喔我們先把21條之一處理完 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5349.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5370.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我觉得那个体育署要不要视你还是七七基本可以视你啦帮我们刚刚意见但是我还是觉得刚刚嘉宾所说的这部分我完全同意啊但是我还是觉得这样的附带决议或什么应该在运产条例的时候来做这样的一个处理而不是在运采的这个地方来做处理你觉得这样会不会可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5372.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5400.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
因為我們發現如果你後面的運產沒有基礎組織不健全你上面的運產運彩啊就會出毛病今天所有職業運動的敗壞都是因為經營階層的敗壞才會造成在賭博的部分造成了一個漏洞所以我們運彩條例的確本身我同意今天的條文上要放入這些內容對球團的規範等等是有未周延的地方但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5401.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5414.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我是覺得在省今天的運產條例的同時我們就意識到運動產業的管理需要加強的那我們在運產的時候我們其實可以安排在運產條例我們還可以再做一些修正嗎接下來我們還有運動產業發行條例的修法我們那個時候說我們再來處理這件事情好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5426.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5436.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
不行 那我們就做一個臨體啊也可以啊 做一個臨體 責成我們要教育部啊喔好 可以啊 用臨時提案的方式喔好 OK 好那我們再來就進行21條之一囉21條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5443.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5443.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
21條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5474.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5485.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
等19人蔡奕宇等18人林思敏等20人洪孟凱等16人林倩琦等19人陳素月等17人陳秀寶等24人 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5491.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5504.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
羅美玲等17人葉元芝等20人李柏毅等17人還有台灣民眾黨的版本好 那21條之一我們有委員要發言嗎好 從後面好 來 張雅玲 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5508.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5528.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 那我的版本其實基本上是跟院版一致啦那我們就是把過去的結果三人以上改成三人以上共同犯罪就是把過去沒有包括的同謀共同證犯包括含括進來所以這是我的版本 謝謝好 還有沒有其他委員要發言好 郭玉琴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5531.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5553.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這個條文就是解夥三人以上犯修正為三人以上共同犯那當然這個方向我覺得是正確的啦因為這樣子跟這個刑法規定上的一個基本犯罪的一個形式其實就用法是一致的也比較方便這個司法的一個實務的運用但是我是在想說換句話來講到底這個共同犯的構成的要件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5554.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5575.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
那可以用這個司法的實務來區分比方說這個共同正犯跟從犯的時候其實他們所採用的是主客觀則依的一個標準那換句話來講只要主觀有共同犯罪的意圖那行為上是符合刑法構成的要件就算是共同正犯那有沒有可能會讓實務的標準變寬或者是說在整個執法的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5581.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5608.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
可能就會從這個地方會出現這個部分我想是不是等一下請法務這邊來給我們一些方法以上好那本席在這個版本基本上也是跟原版一致就是把結果改成共同之外我覺得最大變數是變動是刪除最後一項那當然是主要考量到已經有刑事訴訟法跟刑法相關的處分可以運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5609.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5636.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
所以這裡就不用再另加規範那落實一事不二法的原則那同時也把刑事的處罰跟行政的處罰做出比較明確的區分啦我想這個也是院版的意思好 那體育署這邊有沒有要說明我們這件事情法務部這邊給我們一個指導過程要見的部分好 法務部汪參事好 主席各位委員各位先進大家好有關郭委員提問有這個共同正犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5638.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5664.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
共同正犯這個問題這次修法把解火三人改成三人共犯其實就是因為解火三人是必須是在場實施共同實施的這種因為過去的判決跟大法官會議解釋大概就是這個意思要在場參與分擔實行在場共同實施這個才叫解火解火犯罪那這個就不包含了共謀共同正犯但是事實上在我們運採條例這樣的一個犯罪樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5666.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5682.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
同謀共同正犯他不在現場實施這種狀況其實反而是主謀比較嚴重是我們想要處罰的所以我們把它改成三人共犯這個是共同正犯他是以共同犯罪的意思來事先同謀把它納進來這樣子修改是有意義的而且我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5684.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5703.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
這幾年修法的體力也是這樣修包括我們103年有刑法有修正339條之四就是詐欺的也是這樣修然後112年處理302條之一就是那個防害自由的就是也是有這樣修三人共犯的所以是有符合修法的體力那剛剛委員是說會不會這個範圍過寬會不會把跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5707.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5721.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
對就是幫助犯跟共同正犯會不會覺得說這明明是共同正犯可能抓不到證據變成幫助犯這樣的一個樣態跟委員報告應該因為就過去的就修正跟判斷的經驗這個幫助犯他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5724.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5751.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
動機跟目的還有他的那個主觀要件是幫助他人犯罪的意思然後是構成要件以外的輔助行為這個委員也清楚那我們這個主觀到時候這個假官舉證還有蒐證的重點當然就是他主觀到底是同謀的犯意共犯的犯意共證犯的犯意還是幫助的犯意這個其實有很多客觀證據可以來做判斷那我們也要從這也沒辦法一概而論因為這必須是個案涉入的情形來斟酌判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5754.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5779.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
過去的食物幫助販跟供販其實不會那麼難來區分所以以上可以跟委員說明一下好那如果法務部的說明大家都可以理解的話那是不是在21條之一也就來按照院版來通過好 文字上大家也可以再參照一下我們現在螢幕上的文字喔好 羅廷瑋 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5782.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5792.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
文字 文字可以再大一點嗎 謝謝喔 文字 集數大一點 呵呵呵謝謝 謝謝喔 阿捏 阿捏 阿捏 阿捏OK啦用演過度啊 好 謝謝資本也有啦 資本 不過 欸 對 OK好 那如果院版沒有問題 我們就按照院版通過齁再來還有最後 第29條就是 吳佩奕 吳佩奕等21人齁的版本齁那這個 呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5813.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5830.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
沛宜 沛宜委員要不要說明一下這原本是配合第二條如果主管機關改為運動部才有公佈時間的問題那第二條現在已經維持了嘛所以就沒有意見好 OK 那吳沛宜的條文就不予修正啦那我們就建議還是維持現行條文好 那我們這個剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5841.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5866.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
對 那去弄了齁那我是不是休息五分鐘 等那個他們寫完了嗎我們還有臨時提案我們還有今天議程的臨時提案耶非官 非官 非官非官運採條例的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5869.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5871.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那就休息五分鐘啦 OK OK OK |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6451.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6457.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
好那我們現在來處理臨時提案喔今天有委員提出臨時提案共三案來請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6460.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6461.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你可以大一點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6473.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6490.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
以至於開閉幕式各面向問題層出不窮自有靠北市運市壯運FB專業甚至超越賽事粉專狀況經查查本次賽事雖非體育署主辦但體育署投入認為術意之巨經常門5.5億資本門2.35億無論 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6494.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6508.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
是在資源使用或是未來國際賽會辦理體育署均有檢討與記錄之必要原此除參與主辦單位自身辦理之檢討會議外請體育署亦應就一定規模以上中央資源投入之賽會品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6509.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6515.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
要求以及非競技型國際賽會辦理之經驗記取於兩個月內召開檢討會議並公開會議記錄作為後續運動部、群民運動署、國際事務司與運動產業發展中心之業務參考提案人陳培宇、吳佩奕、張雅琳、郭育晴、林怡瑾、范雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6531.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6561.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
第二案案由在2017年體育改革之後體育署的有效監督與單向協會的良善治理始終是國民體育法修正目標的未竟之業然而一個健康的體育環境不應是讓選手對體制絕望而只能向體育署澄清體育署對單向協會的監理更不該是只能透過憎怒來讓社會感知自巴黎奧運後從李志凱、潘正宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6563.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6583.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
吳東寧以至於近期葉一田事件屢次發生於協會與選手間在黃金計畫執行上的各種爭議問題除了體育署第一時間對於各單項協會的指責與震怒一再上演的劇情顯見相關問題已非個案故主管機關也應思考在黃金計畫之整體申訴與應對制度上對體育署 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6587.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6608.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
與國訓中心作出系統性的檢討原此請教育部以上位機關角色於一個月內就院黃金計劃之執行申訴機制與相關附屬文件進行通盤檢討並向立法院教育總文化委員會提出書面說明提案人陳培瑜吳沛毅張雅玲郭玉琦柯志安羅廷偉林怡瑾劉書斌范雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6617.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6644.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
第三案 因應運動財捐方型條例修正對運動產業經營者及相關法輪團體等在假求防制賽事舞弊等事項之苛責及確保賽事公正性之義務體育署應盡訴於運動產業發展條例中研擬相關條文並於最近一次條文修正中以提案或修正動議方式提出提案人無配意 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6645.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6650.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
范雲,林怡瑾,柯志恩,張雅琳,郭育晴,劉淑斌,鍾嘉斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6651.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6675.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
先讀完畢好 三個案子我們從第一案開始那第一案有沒有委員要發言好 我們請柯志恩委員沒有 第一案我對後面半部我沒有意見因為大家是希望體育署未來在給予經費補助各方面當中能夠有更多的一個討論但是我覺得前面的這三行我覺得有點太針對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6677.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6691.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
因为你看重观体育状况成初状况然后如何我觉得这个部分对于真的主办单位大家都非常的一个辛苦了我觉得如果大家是希望能够责成是因为我们体育署未来再给予经费未来的这个部分能够给予更 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6693.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6710.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
更多的一個監督的話 我覺得這沒有問題可是前面有必要寫成這個樣子嗎對我個人來說的話 我覺得如果能夠稍微再措辭更和緩一點然後我們強化在查本次 雖然有體育組辦這個部分裡面 如果能夠更加那這樣起碼可以得到一個比較大的一個共識啦好 我們再來先請羅廷偉委員然後再來張雅玲 然後再來郭育晴 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6718.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6746.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
好這一個暗游呢也是希望就呼應到我們柯政委員所說的我是具體的建議是不是就是世界壯年運動會所以上週落幕然後就直接跳到查本次賽事這一段那是不是前面這三行能夠稍微做這樣子的微調那當然具體的其他的一些建議我們都支持那這個部分以供參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6748.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6771.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們請張二齡委員我想我們就事實來看我們應該回到事實我想現在的這個陳述的確是反映了這次市狀會舉辦的一些許多的問題例如四邊保險不打動這些非常荒謬的狀況甚至也有游泳選手都已經到了現場清晨四點到現場可是一直沒有辦法被點入 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6772.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6791.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
剪錄然後到最後等到找到他的名字的時候呢他卻已經比完賽了那甚至還有日本選手的棒球賽這邊打不到的我覺得這些都是非常嚴重的一些狀況也是過去賽事其實不應該出現的狀況那我覺得體育署應該要真的就是回應到我們現在提到的這些問題有縱觀整體賽會辦理狀況不斷我覺得這還是反映真實啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6797.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6825.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所有台灣的民眾都非常清楚的一個現實的環境我覺得我們必須要如實呈現 謝謝好 那我們先請郭玉晴委員然後再來請范芸我個人覺得那個靠北市狀運FB專業甚至已經超越賽事粉專的一個狀況這個部分其實是事實層層數啦那我想前面也許第二句或者是在那個層數不窮這邊是可以修但是後面那個我想還是盡量保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6826.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6852.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好 以上好 那范委員我是想說如果要做一點調整的話因為剛剛郭議員希望保存保留那個至有靠北市那個市莊院這個部分嘛那是不是就是說縱觀整體賽會辦理狀況問題層出不窮至有靠北市莊院FB等等就只要刪掉前面稍微簡短一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6853.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6881.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不好意思您說刪掉哪一部分因為你剛剛的那個部分如果落幕之後就到查對不對那大家都知道落幕沒什麼事幹嘛要查對不對就是說至少應該保留上週落幕但中關整體賽會辦理狀況問題層出不窮就是中間刪掉那個行政賽務宣傳以至於那這樣至少聽起來減少一點那保留就是後面問題層出不窮自有靠北市專業FB專業甚至超越賽事粉專狀況句號 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6883.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6909.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這樣子比較有個證據啊好那我們再來請提案人陳培瑜好謝謝主席我剛剛這樣聽起來我覺得大家對於那個我的描述有一點不滿意不過剛剛范議員最後那個結論我覺得蠻好的如果體育署跟在場委員都可以接受的話謝謝好那體育署要不要做一下說明就你們對這個版本要怎麼樣修改或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6913.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6941.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那我們這邊建議就是前面就按照范雲委員的建議但是呢後面呢從第四行開始我們是可以稍微微調但體育署仍投入數億經費之補助那後面接著就是無論是在資源使用等等這樣OK好喔好那大家如果都沒有意見那我們就修正通過第一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6943.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6969.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那個文字 大家這樣就不用再重念一次了好 理解力都很強第二案第二案有沒有人要發言陳培宇委員 提案人剛剛體育署有來溝通我想溝通的部分等一下請體育署自己公開發言但是我要講的是黃金計畫真的太多爭議的問題其實我們一直都有跟你們反映可是往往都是要鬧上新聞包含吳東霖他兩年的錢都沒有拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6970.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6980.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
鬧上新聞之後你們體育署才說要分期撥付而這只是其中一個最為著名的例子那不管是潘正崇啊李志凱等等那當然體育署會說這個有協會中間的問題啊點點點但是我們要說黃金計劃竟然是之前很多立法委員積極爭取然後國家也有心 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6989.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7001.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
協助然後栽培這些選手我認為我們在所有後續行政的配套執行就應該要同步跟上真的沒有理由讓選手來承擔這些所以我們才提出這個臨時提案也謝謝所有簽名委員的支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7002.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7027.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好 那我們先請郭玉琴委員然後再來張雅玲委員然後再來李坤澄委員 劉淑冰委員好 OK好 我就是 echo 一下那個裴宇委員說的我覺得黃金計畫它的本因應該是協助選手的一個發展但是現在因為有一些部分的體育的這個協會變成限制它的行動而且變成有點打壓的一個工具了那我想這個選手跟教練其實本來 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7028.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7038.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
以這個昨天的這個例子來講選手跟教練他本來就已經排定了三場的一個成人賽事要代表台灣去出戰這個國際但協會卻用所謂的義務的名義來扼殺更高層級的一個賽事的發展機會這其實是有必要被檢討的啦以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7046.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7073.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
好 那我們接下來請張雅玲委員好 那我想廷秀水非常清楚知道我一直非常關心黃金計畫那其實我認為這一次在我們我應該回到我們黃金計畫的目標就是希望協助我們這一些還在遇程階段的選手然後可以得到這個計畫的支持然後未來在一些我們重要的賽事像是奧會可以奪金這是當時最重要的一個目標所以我自己會認為我們現在在這個選手規約同意書裡面的第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7074.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7103.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我们好像是特定团体指定的赛事我认为这点可能有检讨的必要是指定的赛事还是指定成绩的赛事因为重点还是最终要达到目标要夺金所以我认为这是有非常多需要做检讨的那过去我也有收到选手跟我说他们在请款的时候被刁难所以我认为这个是非常我觉得在为了保全我们未来在身为这个运动部之后这样子的问题不要再一再的上演所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7104.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7127.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
非常支持這個提案 謝謝好 我們再來請李坤城委員好 謝謝主席那當然就是說除了這個黃金計畫之外這個有關單向協會的問題又出現了上次我還記得在這邊就問有關這個足協的事情紐西蘭女足要來這邊比賽就發現說沒辦法有一個比賽場地能夠比賽當時候我們也是說用扣款的方式來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7128.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7149.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
然後現在又發生這個桌寫這件事情那我看署長處理也是蠻明快的就是說用這一個暫停補助的方式來做處理但是呢後來又發生說用暫停補助的方式來做處理的話那好像那一個陳其仁就是說包含這個伊田他們又有意見就是說會傷害到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7150.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7151.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們再來請劉淑冰委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7173.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7200.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 謝謝主席今天所報出來的這個新聞是關於在這個叫做桌寫桌寫的葉伊田事件這部分有看出來是剛才有聽到的是署長有報告就是說這個部分大滿貫的這個賽其實更重要的因為它很涉及到這個在奧運上面的積分那所以可是這個這個桌寫他也提出來說這是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7204.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7205.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
體育署它的規定是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7207.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7231.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
要規定包括的是 亞錦賽 世青還有說世界的賽 市錦賽等等都需要去一定要參加可是這部分 等於是依照於在體育署的這個規定所以這邊是不是 要請體育署要去做一個檢討這關於說 到底我們現在最重要的可能是一級的這種賽事包括是市錦賽或是奧運這部分他到底累積要積分去參賽資格這部分是不是應該以優先項目來做處理而且這不只是 應該對所有單項協會都做一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7237.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7241.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
如果沒有做這樣的檢討的話現在是發生在桌協以後是不是在包括主婦協或其他的協會的與協的部分等等的是不是都會出現所以我想說這一個部分通通都要做這樣子的一個重要的檢討剛好這次的葉怡婷事件也讓我們凸顯出來這樣子的一個到底是什麼是合適合中而不是看起來是以國家為重可是更重要的是我們國家賽的選手就是要以選手為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7261.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7284.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那你選手沒有進入到有這個積分進入到國際一級賽事的時候那絕對沒有辦法去代表國家去進一級賽的我想這個重點性要凸顯出來就提案的本身我看大家都非常非常的支持就文字上或剛剛委員提出一些意見是不是體育署這邊要做一些回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7286.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7314.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
請問召委我是針對法條針對臨時提案就好還是先針對提案的文字好了好不好臨時提案的部分我這邊建議是在第二段的第三行後面一再上演的劇情這部分是不是能夠刪除那再來是倒數第二行於一個月內舊黃金計劃執行部分是不是可以容許我們到兩個月因為當然這部分我們尊重委員的提案我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7315.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7333.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
近期其實已經跟類像盧彥勳等等一些退役選手已經針對我們的環境計畫已經在做一個修正的討論那其實我這邊也要強調第一個體育署這邊不會去強迫選手一定要參加特定的賽事因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7334.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7359.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
第一個參加錦標賽是協會的權利並不是體育署的權利那針對高爾夫、桌魚網等職業化的選手呢我們最近也會進一步去做選訓的要求當選手成績已經達到可以追求更高成績的賽事的時候就不應該也不適合要求選手去參加成績較低的錦標賽事而是應該站在選手的立場去追求更高的成就那這部分呢我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7360.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7371.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
也在跟退役幾個職業的選手來共商是不是 還有包括奧惠是不是將政府的支持主力放在青年的育成這件事情他的選手過渡到職業的階段呢這部分來做一個支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7376.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7397.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
也就是說我們黃金計畫我們回歸他的精神是在育才這件事情我們希望幫助他在青年青少年要轉要轉到職業的階段這個部分大力支持而不是在他奪牌之後再去做錦上添花我想這個心態我們最近也做了很大的調整那最近我們也會依照委員的這個建議呢我們來做一個通盤的檢討 以上報告好 陳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7403.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7419.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好署長我們就對焦文字就好了供應您提到第二段到第三行倒數後面一再上演劇情顯現相關問題已非個案你希望這邊可以刪除是嗎是好如果這邊要刪除那我身為提案人那我就主張如果您堅持要刪除我會希望兩個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7421.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7442.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
也許是可以接受但是不是就我可不可以拜託主席我們就排專案報告因為我認為相關事情確實是一再發生啦本於事實那我們站在協助選手也好或者是剛剛署長自己也說到其實署內也好或是國訓中心也好現在才開始有很多觀念的轉變而這些觀念轉變其實真的都是來自於所有上新聞的個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7443.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7472.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
如果体制内的大佬们都没有意识到这件事情对年轻选手的重要性屡屡要靠年轻选手自己发言自己澄清自己闹上的新闻才有积极改进是不是就让我拜托主席我们改成我可以接受那句话拿掉我可以接受但我希望两个月内是专案报告而不是书面报告也谢谢主席一直以来在担任民意代表路上还有所有委员都非常支持体育选手跟与体制的对话谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7473.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7499.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好 謝謝佩玉的建議喔那可是七月有世大運所以可能要請體育署來做專案報告時間上美玉我們盡量來看六月有沒有機會各位委員喔 是這部分其實我們當然我們這樣好不好我們就我們隨時的進度我們來跟委員這邊來做一個進度上的報告因為我們這還是要跟國訓不只討論而且要經過國訓的董事會等等的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7500.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7516.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
說實在時間蠻花時間但是以整個的規劃方向來做一個書面報告這部分我們是可以做得到那是不是也容許我們來我這邊來在七月中之前四三月之前親自到委員辦公室來做一個規劃上的一個進度報告好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7517.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7543.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我快速回應署長好嗎 謝謝主席我認為今天不會只有我陳佩瑜關心今天所有在場的委員那包含會員委員會從性平的角度郭委員會從兒少的角度或者是選手權益的角度嘉賓委員剛剛發言也很多昆城委員私下也會找我討論很多體育的問題所以我認為不應該只有向陳佩瑜委員辦公室報告應該跟所有今天出席甚至是後續支持沒有啦 我叫我們工董 你不要這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7544.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7561.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
支持所有體育選手還有張阿玲委員也是她自己的孩子都還是選手所以我要談的是可不可以不要只有跟陳培宇委員辦公室報告因為每一個人能夠切入的議題跟面向真的有限時間有限但因為綜合所有委員的關心我認為會有更多體育選手 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7564.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7585.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
接受到支持,所以我不知道大家怎麼看我們就擇期喔,召委再來協商適合的時間,那但是就是不是只跟陳培委員報告,就是來這邊專案報告,那擇期時間再來協商看什麼時候好不好?那我們就好,那我理解,可是我們就臨時提案的文字是不是還是維持兩個月提書面報告? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7588.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7605.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這個OK嗎 就兩個月的書面報告還是你要我是說如果是兩個月書面報告是OK的嘛那就是書面報告也有然後再來專案報告的部分我們可能就是擇期啦好不好 我們專案報告就擇期啦好不好 這樣子好好 那再加一個提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7630.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7639.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個文字如果要刪除的話那就要提專案報告那我就跟署長講那你就文字不要刪除啊那就書面報告就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7641.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7662.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好 對不起 趙委 我有一個程序上的錯誤剛剛我們黨團的同仁提醒我 謝謝我這樣好像逾越了委員的權責我不能規範你說一定要開專案報告 不好意思沒有 沒有 不會 不會 建議建議 建議 不好意思 不好意思所以 主席不好意思所以是不是怎麼樣調整是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7664.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7682.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這樣好不好這個臨庭上面我們還是寫兩個月書面報告啦那可是這個我心裡已經非常有有數了而且我本來對這個議題也很有概念所以這個排專報告這個我們就來擇其處理好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7685.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7711.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好 OK好 那我們第二個領體就這樣文字修正通過喔好 第三個有關於我們今天的這個運彩條例的臨時提案好 嘉賓委員好 主席 那我三個部分首先第一我支持那個提案委員也感謝吳佩儀委員的提案那我第一個部分先做一些文字的修正可以嗎好 那我就開始從第一行開始第一行呢最後團體等債 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7713.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7736.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
假求這兩個字拿掉然後保留防治然後頓號拿掉那整句話唸起來就是在防治賽事舞弊等事項這樣就包含了包括假求的內容了那再來是第三行這個運動產業發展條例等相關法令中研擬條文修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7737.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7765.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這裡面就是在運動產業發展條例後面加上等相關法令然後中研擬把相關拿掉條文修正案並於最近一次條文修正中以提案或修正動議方式提出所以第一個我對於這個文字上的一些建議第二個我還是要提醒一下教育部或未來的運動部我大家跟他請教一下你們知道公事法是哪個部會主管的嗎是經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7767.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7784.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
但是上市櫃公司它的法令規範在哪裡嗎規範在政交法所以大家一直以為運動彩券發行條例跟運動產業發展條例它是兩件事情它其實不是兩件它是層次的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7785.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7800.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
一般的公司未達公開發行的階段的就是公司法去處理但是到了公發公司之後他就跑到證交法去處理為什麼一個證券交易法可以規範所有的上市位公司因為這些上市位公司的資金是來自於大眾市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7801.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7819.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
所以才會變成是由證券交易的相關衍生包括所謂的內線交易包括所謂的關係人交易包括所謂的內機內控包括所謂的資訊接入都會是在證交法裡面規定的所以當我們去思考說運動產業發展過程當中運動產業發展相當多範疇但是最Top的那幾個上位的就是職業運動的球團它就會落在運動彩券發展條例裡面來規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7831.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7846.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為運動產業那麼多運動才要發展包括我們社區的兒童足球都是啊那需要用運動產業發展條例就夠啦但是他會跑到運動彩券發行呢不會沒有人會在社區的幼兒足球去什麼去投注啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7847.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7871.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
但是你一旦是有到了一個職業運動有公開發行彩券的階段的時候它就相當於我們的上市會公司它是公開的發行股票接受資金的那當然要提升到運動彩券發行條例啊所以我們才說大家一直以為21條跟21條之一好像我們談的是球團的經營管理其實它就是因為運動產業發展到職業運動階段到可以發行運動彩券階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7876.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7898.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這些主席式的組織他必須跟接受更高的規管所以呢我才剛剛說署長啊還有我們的這個幾位委員的提議呢我沒有很堅持但是第三個部分我要說的是如果這個臨時提案主席如果可以考量召委可以考量的話在剛剛的運動產業發展條例前面加上四個字叫做本條例或 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7899.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7920.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
也就是說今天它不會是一個今天委員會的臨時提案我今天能夠來這裡參與臨時提案是因為我是財政委員會但是我不會去參與運動產業發展條例的委員會審查因為它是在教文委員審查但是為什麼今天運動財券發展條例要找財政來聯席就是因為這個財券的發行動用到大眾的資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7921.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7936.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
所以財委會才要來參與我們才貢獻了一些包括政交法公司法這些區隔的思維我們希望能夠在教育部既有的運動產業發展條例之上去思考到所謂的最top的最上面的這些大型的職業運動的組織他有能力去參與到運動彩券發行的這個組織他必須在這個條例裡面接受更高的規管 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7943.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7965.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
所以呢如果主席允許的話這個臨時提案也可以變成21條或21條之一的附帶決議只要前面加上本條例或那作為這樣的一個附帶決議放在條文裡面大家就知道未來我們的運動彩券發行條例還是有待去修整不是說這一次呢因為大家知道很急切我們希望呢趕快去阻止打假球所以21條對於這個脅迫啦強暴啦炸毒啦要趕快遏止用刑責來遏止這我都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7972.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7992.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
但是這樣的一個經營環境會造成球員跟這個主頭去掛鉤他其實就是這個最高層次職業運動產業這個球團或者這個組織本身他的腐化他的管理的疏失才會造成的所以我剛剛在談的很多的事情是說他不見得要去參與到幫助強暴脅迫詐欺的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7995.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8016.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
在我們政交法當中所謂的關係人交易所謂的相關資訊介入所謂的內機內控都沒有預設這些大型監控公司的負責人參與到他的所謂的賭博詐欺或者是說詐騙行為 沒有但是一個疏於管理就足以叫他要罰款了所以我再提醒一次像我們現在還在研擬什麼融資公司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8017.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8034.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
因為有的銀行法不夠啊 還要管融資公司啊為什麼 融資公司現在是公司法在規範 是在經濟部啊所以有人主張說要訂個融資公司法 抓來給金管會管為什麼 因為它涉及到很多大眾的資金 很多的詐欺的問題那至於融資公司法要不要制定 那是另一件事情但是我是覺得還是強烈的建議呢今天我們在審查運動財政發展條例第21條跟21條之一的時候它的附帶決要清楚的指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8041.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8044.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這些最上層的最高層的職業運動組織本身它附有保障這個運動彩券在發行過程當中球團或組織的經營管理必須盡到它嚴格的內機內控跟相關資訊介入以及防止交易防止關係人涉及的這些條款當中不能只是去靠一個說去規範組頭啦規範球員啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8066.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8074.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
規範這些實際有暴力或實際犯罪行為的人其他的這些內線交易也是我就不用再講了日本的一些職業運動的醜聞是怎麼來的就是因為關係人的問題關係人沒有介入所以他才會被當作醜聞來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8082.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8085.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那我們當然不希望未來運動財券發行跑出的這些醜聞我們希望在這個條例的修正當中至少不是今天至少留著附帶決議要求我們這個法條呢要再繼續的嚴格規範那懇請我們聯席委員會支持把這個臨時提案呢能夠提列為二十一條的附帶決議以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8102.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8122.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 那提議書我這邊只有一個意見就是其實我尊重委員們的那個想法不過因為我們院版最近才剛通過這我就說是不是可以把最近一次這四個字刪了可能半年內或是說一年內以提案修正適當時機適當時機並於適當時機提條文修正 謝謝適當時機好 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8143.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8159.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
一個文字我請教一下剛剛我聽那個嘉賓委員講說法輪團體等在防制賽事舞弊這邊是不是我問一下防制的字是這個字還是防制的另外一個制定的字都可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8164.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8169.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
制定的制吧 應該是這個吧制服的制 對對對以上防制制服的制喔制服的制 好好 OK好 那我們這個臨時提案就改成附帶決議第21條的附帶決議那我再念一下好了啦來 因應運動彩券發行條例修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8193.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8211.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
對運動產業經營者及相關法人、團體等在防制賽事舞弊等事項之苛責及確保賽事之公正性之義務體育署應禁訴於本條例或運動產業發展條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8215.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8222.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
等法令中原理相關條文修正並於適當時機以提案或修正動議方式提出OK 好OK 好 好 那就這樣子那我們這個21條附帶決議就修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8243.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8265.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好 那個題案如果委員要補簽的請到我們議事人員那邊來補簽 然後可以詳細登載在議事錄今天的審查結果 我們就免於重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝的前提下文字 條字跟標語符號為統一體制授權議事人員修改列入紀錄 未予採納條文授權議事人員確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8269.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8284.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
關於今天會議做如下決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆運動採訊發行條例全部審查完略請問是否交黨團協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8287.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8306.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不須交由黨團協商並按拟據審查報告提請院會討論院會討論時由林昭集委員以儘補充說明本次會議議事錄授權主席確認後及上傳立法院全球資訊網公開報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8313.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8314.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
謝謝蘇冰委員 從頭到尾謝謝 |