| IVOD_ID |
16723 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16723 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-02T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-02T12:36:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:05:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc7dcd1dfdf6b0e522ad9f551ce5fa921ffdab1a38f0d348c0f12ce222a8adb18b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長、審計部審計長、司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「如何落實清廉政府及公務員瀆職之態樣與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 12:36:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1969.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1980.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告文會初期委員7人已讀法定人數請宣布開會我們現在開始開會那現在進行報告事項宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1980.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2007.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第十八次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一四年五月二十六日星期一上午九時至十二時十五分下午一時至一十二分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十一人列席委員邱振軍委員等五人列席官員上午司法院副秘書長王明依等人下午國家安全會議副秘書長徐思簡等人主席莊昭及委員瑞雄上午議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2008.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2033.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告事項一選讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請司法院副秘書長法務部次長內政部次長教育部衛生福利部勞動部內政部警政署就跟蹤騷擾防治法實行三週年後其制度成效實務偵查審判困境與未來修法展望進行專題報告並被質詢決定報告結尋到完畢第三案第四案為司法院函為一百一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅出第四款第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2034.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2050.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決議二預算凍結書面報告請查照案等二案決定第三案及第四案均均與被查提報院會討論事項一到八案為司法院函為一百一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢訟稅出第四款第一項決議一預算凍結書面報告請查照案等八案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2051.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2075.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本日上午會議有委員黃國昌委員等13人提出質詢委員張雅玲等4人提出書面質詢決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 第一案之第八案均均與動之提報院會三 委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會下午議程討論事項一到三案為國家安全會議函為114年度中央政府總預算決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2076.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2077.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問上次會議事務有無錯誤或遺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2094.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2122.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好那大家認為沒有的話那會議意思錄確定好那我們先介紹在場委員還有硬要列席官員首先介紹在場委員我左手邊是黃國昌委員右手邊是王逸川委員接著我們介紹官員審計部副審計長李副審計長司法院副秘書長王副秘書長法務部部長政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2124.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2128.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
法務部電腦局局長陳局長法務部廉政署署長馮署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2135.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2161.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 那其餘位及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次會期為三天一次會 本日議程排定邀請監察院秘書長等機關首長及有關機關率所屬相關單位列席就如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職之太陽及與防治進行專題報告並被質詢現在進行報告 每位發言時間三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2165.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2180.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為檢察院副秘書長未到那我們請省紀部副省紀長李順寶報告接著我們接下來一位我們是請司法院副秘書長王副秘書長報告好謝謝那我們先請副省紀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2186.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2212.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席 各位委員大家早那省紀部今天應邀列席貴委員會來專題報告自感榮幸那以下就簡要報告省紀部的相關業務跟我們政府的廉政的相關關係那本部會的落實青年政府跟協力防治公務員賭職積極運用大數據分析等技術整合政府電子採購網等相關的資料庫發掘財務上的為私行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2215.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2230.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那如果發現機關人員有財務上為私行為涉及刑事的部分就依據審計法第17條後段的規定移送司法機關來辦理那並報告監察院那如果考核各機關的績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2231.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2254.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
如果有未竟職責或效能過低那就依審計法第69條第一項的前段規定通知他的上級機關來查處並報告監察院另外本部也跟廉政機關建立聯繫的合作平台強化情資的分享跟協同機制那這樣的話我想應該有助於促進公務機關的良善治理 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2254.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2277.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那以下就幾個案例來報告審計部的實際查核的情況跟處理首先是我們運用跨機關資料庫來查核政府採購的行政管理的財閥機制那我們在109年跟111年間我們篩選司法院跟法務部的刑事偵審的資料庫列載跟政府採購有關的行政財閥機制的執行的採購案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2283.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2307.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
總共有2900餘件採行聯合審計的方式查核各級政府的落實管制情形調查的結果發現有800餘家的不法廠商主辦的機關沒有依政府採購法的規定追繳押標金有500家次的不法廠商主辦機關沒有依政府採購法的規定刊登政府採購公報來聽權 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2309.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2325.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
相關的績效我們就已經積極的處理那周圍壓標進大概有1億5000多萬元並完成相關廠商的停權作業那相關行政機關的人員的疏失也處理了那部分涉及 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2326.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2351.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
相關事項我們移送監察院來處理那工程會已經採行相關的積極作為那下面基於時間的關係個案的部分請各級委員來參閱那最後報告結語那審計工作的主要目的是來促使政府健全財務秩序匡正財務紀律跟增進財務效能協助國家良善治理那本部會繼續運用資訊科技來稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2355.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2377.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
財務跟財政上的為私行為達到嚇阻的功能來避免公務員存有僥倖的心態然後誤觸違法事件未來我們仍然會運用相關的技術提升審核效能來善盡職責 以上報告好 謝謝那我們下一位請副秘書長接下來我們是請部長報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2384.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2407.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家早安大家好今天貴委員會舉辦如何落實清廉政府及公務員貪毒的太陽跟防治專題報告本院奉邀前來一次就與本院業務有關的部分報告如下敬請指教第一點就違反貪污之罪條例的案件各地方法院從民國98年到114年4月間 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2410.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2428.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
判決有罪者達3萬264罪次那其中有兩罪判處無期徒刑56罪判處超過15年有期徒刑各高等法院跟分院同期間判決有罪者達4萬7948罪次32罪次 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2432.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2455.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
判處於15年有期徒刑那又各地方法院在105年7月到114年4月間的判處沒收的金額呢共計新台幣31億多那各高等法院跟分院同期間判處沒收的金額呢也有達到29億多那關於法院及 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2457.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2481.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
法官還有法院相關業務承辦人的教育訓練方面本院歷年呢都在法官學院開設有關於房攤廉政公務人員倫理價值跟行政中立等訓練課程跟研討會持續辦理法官還有相關人員的在職進修以增進專業能力那法官學院呢從一 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2482.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2501.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
1年到14年4月間共辦理了122次的課程時數322小時參訓人數6352人次那第三點本院政風處及所屬法院的政風機構都依相關的廉政工作規定辦理機關員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2503.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2522.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
貪瀆防制作業那至於其他非屬本院業務部分尊重各該主管機關的政策決定及貴院之立法裁量權以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位好 謝謝下一位我們請部長 鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2531.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2555.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生今天奉要列席各位委員會就如何落實青年政府及公務員獨職之太陽級防治代表本部提出報告並被質詢一項說明本部統整檢查機關廉政署與調查局建構反貪腐法制推動透明治理執行樹灘行動方案形成反貪、反貪、樹灘網絡的現況敬請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2561.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2572.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
以廉政風險與貪瀆太陽的一個趨勢政府採購補助核發土地開發人士任用等業務具裁量空間涉及民間利益恐慌貪瀆風險本部與廉政所推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2574.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2601.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
機關定期風險評估透明經濟獎AI及大數據篩選高風險採購案專案即可檢視法制由不足落實反貪腐公約精神一三年度檢方偵辦貪圖一百三十八件涉案公務員兩百四十七人次以收賄罪為罪大中二法制面作為本部推動公益階幣者保護法完成施行細則的一個原理 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2601.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2619.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
研修公職人員財產申報法研議刑法饋贈罪影響利益交易罪及企業賄賂罪令針對企業賄賂罪持續進行前面的研議三執行面作為本部則曾抬高檢署監制打擊率能 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2621.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2641.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
打擊妨礙綠能產業發展犯罪聯繫平台整合資源分享偵辦經驗提升查緝效能地遷署主動接觸企業發掘步伐並與廉政署強化預警落實連結治理確保綠能發展自一一零零一月一日至一四三月三十一號指以偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2642.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2651.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
188案羈押38人起訴125人查過不好所得9800餘萬元自動繳回6100餘萬元不動產18匹車輛5輛等遞減屬於11年至113偵辦貪圖案件定罪率逐年提升本部會提升偵辦貪圖及金融經濟犯罪專業定期辦理研習會推動證照制要求辦人通過訓練取得證照 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2670.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2693.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
本部將強化法制與機制落實盤貪污公會推動跨部會與公司協力打造青年永續任性治理後指社會核心價值及國際競爭的以上報告敬請主席跟各位委員指教好謝謝那我們請教一下其提出書面報告的機關有沒有要口頭補充好 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2697.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2719.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
沒有的話 機關代表報告完畢我們相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2728.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2735.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
謝謝主席開始巡大一遷先請教一下主席我們請監察院來 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2738.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2761.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
大部分的資訊都從媒體知道所以他們現在的狀況到底是怎樣?不來是不是?沒有來,也沒有書面,都沒有其實這個我們都有通知啦我們在事前都有通知監察院但是祕書長不來,也沒有派別人過來,也沒有書面過來我們看到的是,其實這有點在羞辱立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2763.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2790.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那個我大概具體建議一下啦看是不是召委我們司法法制委員會發個文請監察院說明一下因為到昨天突然看到李俊逸辭職的消息嘛那他辭職歸他辭職啊那監察院總是還有副秘書長吧那監察院半個人都不派來是什麼意思那監察委員現在是覺得他們自己是太上黃機關嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2792.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2816.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他們愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹相關的資訊全體國人關心的全部都是從報章雜誌上面才能夠知道這個事情有蠻離譜的啦我是建議召委看會後的時候要不要透過這樣子的方式來加以處理因為我知道召委也蠻 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2818.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2841.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
蠻無無奈的嘛上個禮拜好像李俊逸是不是試圖有要跟你請假有 上個星期四早上我有接到電話就是秘書長他有希望請假那我剛剛電話裡面有跟他回覆說我跟其他委員稍微問一下看狀況那因為其他委員表示說他們還是希望秘書長要過來所以我跟他說沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2842.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2865.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那他有請同仁拿了一份請假的資料過來但是因為我們這邊沒有辦法准假,所以我們同仁沒有收後來監察院的聯絡人他們就直接把那一份資料就直接送到立法院的收發室就直接送過去但我覺得司法法制委員會基本的規矩還是要有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2866.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2884.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他要請假歸他要請假,準不準是召委的權限從召委剛描述的過程顯然上個禮拜四上午的時候李軍營還沒打算要請辭他如果打算要請辭的話,那時候要請什麼假就直接告訴你說我已經辭職了,你要不要叫扶民署長來就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2885.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2910.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那黃委員因為這個東西不需要經過決議嘛那我就會後我再請我們同仁就是去函詢一下監察院看監察院那邊的說法是如何好 謝謝喔 那個是麻煩有請我們法務部的部長麻煩部長廉政署的署長署長內政部警政署警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2925.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2945.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
三位早 時間的關係不宜問候我今天看到法務部跟我們廉政署所提出來的書面報告我老實講我不知道該怎麼形容你們在今天的書面報告裡面大剌剌的寫說你們推動階幣者保護法你們推動什麼階幣者保護法我們立法院完成三讀了 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2954.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2976.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
行政部門連個草案都沒有送出來你們好意思啊 在書面報告說你們推動階幣者保護法那在書面報告寫這種東西法務部也好 廉政署也好寫了自己都不會臉紅喔立法院要審法案了 山炊事情請你們提一個草案出來各種理由推脫 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2981.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3008.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
結果今天的書面報告好意思寫你們推動階幣者保護法自己看了都不會臉紅喔我看了都覺得幫你們慚愧具體的問題我上一次請教部長跟廉政署跟廉政署檢舉結果吹哨者的身份被洩漏你們說你們要回去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3009.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3029.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
回去查了以後 蘇聯證書沒有做錯你們交給的是警政署 政風室還是督查單位結果這個督查單位在回函的時候結果竟然讓原被檢舉的單位回函給檢舉人這個事實的經過我沒有描述錯誤吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3033.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3062.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這個事實經過我有沒有描述錯誤報告委員大致上是正確的大致上是正確的來請廉政署署長那請問發生這樣子的事情誰要負責任就代表我們整個公務機關哪裡有保護吹哨者的意識啊大剌剌的叫被檢舉的單位回函給吹哨者啊這個叫保護吹哨者啊所以我們相關的同仁教育訓練不足是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3063.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3091.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
推動了這麼多年推動到現在被檢舉的機關回函給吹哨者這樣處理是對的嗎來 請署長跟委員說明一下這個案件就是民眾檢舉到事實經過我剛講過了啦現在我只問結論啦這樣處理是對的嗎跟委員講我們這個部分還有一些需要我們再加強的我跟委員報告說我們現在針對這個部分的改進的做法先停一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3093.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3117.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
推動吹哨者保護法制報告都很會寫教育訓練顯然出了問題嘛哪裡有保護吹哨者的基本意識我問你一個最基本的問題這樣處理是對的嗎你都不敢正面回覆這樣處理是不是對的曾委員報告沒有不敢回覆基於那個任何檢舉人也不一定是接避者啦包括檢舉人的部分的身份都應該保密 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3118.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3137.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
現實上就沒有嗎現實上有嗎我們很重視這件事情 對沒有保密的部分我們一定會嚴加去檢討然後去改進要如何檢討跟委員報告在這個事情上之後我們有發現了一個狀況就是說我們在當時的時候發交到政風單位我們都是以密件來處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3138.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3160.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
那麼到後來因為警政署的工作上比較特殊所以他的那個分工上他是由督察系統去查那後來了解是說在督察系統這邊的環節上有一些問題所以說他們也針對這個部分去做了一個行政的究責那未來的話所以該負責任的是警政署是不是我們這邊也會做一個檢討跟委員報告其實事實上來 請警政署警政署報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3164.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3189.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個事情這樣處理是對的嗎這個部分處理上是有一個不夠周延的地方那針對這部分目前追究責任的進度如何相關的人員其實已經給予行政的一個處分怎麼處分的會後給我書面資料可以嗎是可以嗎可以好來接下來請部長之前針對監察院的公務車我第一次當立委的時候我有強力質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3191.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3215.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
一個監察院才多少人啊正副首長專用車將近30台當時也是立法委員的李俊逸啊就延遲批評過了啊監察院的公務車使用就是浪費就是浪費嘛結果沒想到啊李俊逸今年年初在開記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3218.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3237.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
說柴米油鹽樣樣少金恩怨風骨不打折啊全體納稅人看的是瞠目結舌啊所謂的金恩怨風骨不打折啊是我們的秘書長用監察院的公務車載他的愛犬去做美容啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3238.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3254.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
結果爆出來了以後 還不只這樣還不是只有李俊逸這個秘書長接著 搭公務車去看牙醫 蘇麗瓊來請教一下法務部部長這種行為構成什麼犯罪那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3259.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3281.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這部分齁那個秘書長那部分齁那個因為有這個北檢已經分案來了解了齁那另外那個從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛從過去的案例構成什麼犯罪給全國人民科普一下嘛來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3287.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3304.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個部分那個個案的話還要經過檢查中的了解調查當然嘛就這個行為太陽構成什麼犯罪因為這個是我對這個個案的這是媒體報導就陳錄委員講的這是不瞭解媒體報導的不是很清楚他不是都承認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3305.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3324.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
他承認的對阿 我的確思慮不周阿用公務車站愛犬去做寵物美容阿所以我現在就問你阿 這樣的行為構成什麼犯罪阿這個在偵查中的 那這部分我不表示表示對偵查中的一些的我們抽象的來講 可以這樣幹嗎可以這樣幹嗎還是你也不方便表示意見遇到綠色的尖尾就軟啪啪你也不方便表示意見 是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3336.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3363.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
不回答這部分因為是否涉及犯罪那個檢常在會了解沒關係啊部長可能貴人多忘事啊來我提醒你一下除了蘇麗瓊以外還有林玉龍啊接下來還會爆出誰我不知道我看這個個案啊是非常非常的多啊來我帶部長回顧一下過去怎麼處理的前雲林消防局的局長私用公務車遭彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3365.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3392.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那現在大家就在看啊監察院的這些玉石大夫啊會不會彈劾自家人啊大家都在等著看嘛是不是用同一個標準還是只有監察院可以去彈劾其他公務員監委也好秘書長也好自己愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹後來這個錢雲林消防局的局長有沒有被起訴部長知不知道還是這個個案你也不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3395.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3421.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
他有被起訴這個我不清楚我告訴你 他有被起訴他還被判刑了他不僅有被起訴 他還被判刑了這還不是唯一的個案啊 再來看當初我們賴清德總統在當台南市市長的時候他用的民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏那個時候你是不是在南捷 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3424.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3452.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那個我不是在我那時候那時候你已經高升法務部了我在我已經離開台南地區OK很好台南市府民族事務委員會的主委汪志敏違法使用公務車一樣起訴一樣判刑現在全體國人都在等著看啊看我們的法務部我們的檢察官執法的標準是不是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3454.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3468.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
還是看到綠色的尖尾每一個都軟趴趴不敢表示意見連是違法的都不敢講大家整個看啊看要怎麼偵辦要怎麼處理北檢搜索監察院有沒有任何法規上的障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3480.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3501.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我講的是法規上的障礙 有任何法規上的障礙嗎如果要去搜索國防軍事處所 要得到國防軍事處所長官的同意嘛搜索監察院 要不要得到監察院院長或副院長的同意那要不要搜索 那是個案來做一個 是嘛所以我就問你法規上的問題啊 有法規上的障礙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3503.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3521.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
刑事訴訟法的規定不熟嗎還是不敢回答可不可以說說就按照法律的規定來做當然是按照法律的規定嘛怎麼問你法律的規定都不敢回答來我請教一下法務部部長坐座車出去要不要寫派車單 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3523.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3531.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這部分司機會處理什麼叫司機會處理這個駕駛會去處理這個派車單處理說今天法務在法務部長去哪裡嗎這個會我們會有派車單還是沒有派車單這是事實問題嘛這個會這個派車單會去核銷油料的這部分會寫這個派車所以司機會寫派車單是嗎法務部部長的部分會還是不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3553.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3580.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
應該會 應該會嘛有就有 沒有就沒有 怎麼你自己是法務部部長 自己都不熟因為要不要拍照 這不是訴訟性的事情 好 沒有關係啊法務部部長可以在上班時間去喬他自己好朋友的訴訟嗎我之前問過你這個問題啊你說絕對不會發生這樣的事嘛你確定嗎你確定不會發生這樣的事嗎如果有發生這樣的事情的話 要不要就責 來 請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3582.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3605.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這個就依法律來處理依法律來處理嘛 好我希望就依法律來處理啊所以我今天質詢的時候我公開檢舉啊前法務部部長蔡清祥2021年9月17號禮拜五上班時間搭著公務車陪他的好朋友去找聯合再生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3607.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3632.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
喬斯人的訴訟法務部部長上班時間可以幹這種事嗎你之前是跟我講絕對不會有這樣的事嘛那現在我檢舉有這樣子的事情啊法務部要不要調查還是他卸任了沒有關係要不要調查我們再來瞭解再來瞭解我今天公開檢舉啊請法務部回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3634.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3643.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
2021年9月17號部長的請假紀錄跟公務車的派車單會後送司法法制委員會有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3646.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3668.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
可以嗎可以嗎需要多久下班以前送來可以嗎這樣還要拖兩個禮拜給你一個禮拜夠久了啦給你一個禮拜夠久了啦我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長在這邊承諾說要回去了解我希望不是雷聲大雨點小第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3669.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3695.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
有沒有這個事情這是客觀存在的歷史事實啊我今天公開檢舉啊蔡清祥當初有沒有請假是不是搭公務車去的可以在上班時間去敲打好朋友的訴訟喔官真敗壞至此啊我當初要質詢這件事情的時候蔡清祥下台了下台歸下台啊就跟呂靜玉一樣該追究的法律責任啊一樣要追究 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3697.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3718.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
部長 查前部長會不會有壓力會不會就依法來處理就依法來處理啊好啊 我們拭目以待啊看你如何依法來處理啊好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員那你 你要不要敲一下欸喔 那就羅OK 好再麻煩羅 羅委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3731.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3750.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
請吳宗憲委員主席我先要做程序上的發言我這邊我先解釋清楚一下因為很多委員也是一直打電話跟傳訊息來問我今天的狀況那我想說我這邊先說明一下我們今天排的這個會議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3754.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3769.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
原因其實我們最早開會討論今天這個議程當時並還沒發生監察院公務車使用的問題所以當時我們排這個主要是要去探討有關一般性補助款636億 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3773.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3787.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
中央不發給的這個問題有沒有涉及到一流客扣罪所以我們因為一流客扣這個是刑法裡面公務員獨執罪章所以我們是希望說有利用今天的會議去了解整個流程所以我們先說明就是第一個我們這個會議它 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3789.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3812.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
有人說是不是在針對這個李俊毅秘書長事實上不是 這個是之前就已經開會決定的那第二個就是有關這個請假的部分那我想這一段時間呢 世大法自由委員會我們經歷了總統府秘書長也不來然後國安會秘書長也不來那現在又遇到監察院秘書長也不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3815.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3828.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
好 OK 那立法院秘書長也沒有來嘛那這個謝謝王委員的補充那我們現在遇到的狀況是我們面對的總統府以及監察院就這些人都不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3829.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3847.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那這樣我們的委員會存在的意義是什麼因為你立法院等於不受其他機關的居宿不受其他機關的尊重那尤其是他們在處理這些事情的時候他們在執行公務的時候他們使用的也是國家的稅金 人民的納稅錢甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3849.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3878.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
國安會組織條例第八條他就明確的寫明了 載明明文規定他要向立法院負責啊但是他說不來就不來所以我這邊要說明一下就是我們現在面對的就是我們在邀請幾個地方的秘書長那現在還有包括王一川剛剛所那個補充的就都沒有人要來啊我不懂說在民主國家的國會有世界上哪一個國家民主國家國會像我們中華民國的立法院這麼的弱 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3879.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3896.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
去年我們的國會改革法案全部被宣告違憲那些權利最早都是民進黨提出來的我想各位都可以從網路以及歷史的新聞上面查得到就所有國會改革那些法案其實基本上它的最早草案都是民進黨所提出來的那這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3896.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3920.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這些權利在世界上各個民主國家也是非常常見的包括官員來不可以說謊包括官員不可以任意的就拒絕到立法院結果到我們台灣來全部變成違憲全部變成是無法監督那去年法案的部分沒有辦法監督全部被大法官沒收了結果今年連預算都不可以管了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3921.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3946.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
就我們今天我們立法院這個立法院這個明明是民主國家的代議室的最高的民意機關結果我們今天在法律上面行政上面無法監督現在連預算都不可以監督了現在這是我們現在遇到的問題難怪這幾位秘書長連來都不想來那當然包括剛剛王委員特別提醒我們的就本院的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3947.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3959.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
難怪就是說你什麼權限都沒有的一個民主國家國會這也是世界罕見我想 假單的部分在禮拜四的早上確實秘書長有打電話給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3963.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3991.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那我當時是有跟他說因為我必須要問一下其他委員如果有一位委員希望秘書長要來我們就不可能說準價因為我們還是要顧及每一位委員的權益那當時確實幾位委員都表明說希望秘書長還要來那他們有一些問題要請教所以我們就沒有準價那監察院他的做法就是把價單直接送到立法院的總收發室他們做法就是這樣那也沒有得到我們這邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3992.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4016.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
準價我想說這整個過程經過是這樣我想說因為這部分大家一直有問題從早上一直問到現在所以我這邊就做一次程序上面的說明謝謝主席接下來我想請部長 法務部長副審計長 廉政署署長還有調查局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4033.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4059.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
好 最後我再補充一下就是那個因為建安院秘書長沒有來但是他也沒有指派人過來也沒有提書面這跟其他機關有的沒辦法過來還會補個書面來至少你人不想講書面講一下也都沒有我這邊補充好 那有請部長四位早安 四位辛苦了那我想請教一下先請教林政署的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4063.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4084.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
署長我請問一下那因為這一次事情越鬧越大包括到秘書長都已經請辭了這個監察院使用車輛的案子我想說這個部分這個政風他上一次在專案集合這些監察院的內部使用車輛的時間是多久以前我不知道署長這邊知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4085.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4106.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我們會定期的要求我們的各個政風單位去做對 上一次是什麼但上一次什麼時候做我不清楚他們偵察員的做好 那不然這個會後再麻煩你提供一個比較細的東西我想署長可能不知道那再麻煩會後提供我想每個監察委員都有自己的配車嘛那過往其實在實務上面其實有非常多公務員他濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4107.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4121.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
公務車 其實後來都有判刑的記錄啦那我想齁 這一次 雖然有監委跳出來我印象中葉監委跳出來 他是說因為這是涉及失誤 所以這個他們沒有調查 但是齁 我還是請 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4123.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4151.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個大家回去看一下就是監察委員還有一個自律規範跟我們立委一樣第17條跟第19條其實監委違法的話監察院是可以內部是可以把他彈劾或移送法辦或停職的所以不是沒有法可辦監察院也不是話外之地那因為今天監察委員監察院都沒有派任何一個人來所以我在這邊可能就是跟那個署長還有部長還有那個調查局長報告這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4152.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4169.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個行為有可能違法 因為剛剛黃委員在問部長 說部長並沒有一個明確的說明 但是部長說這個是個案所以沒有辦法說明是哪一個條件 那我在這邊跟部長報告一下我個人 潛見 覺得 這個行為其實它至少在刑法上面 它可能有詐欺背信或侵佔 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4170.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4185.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
可能這幾條的範型啦那當然有外面有坊間有人說這個還涉及貪污罪條例那這個可能就是認識用法上面的夾關自己的判斷但是我個人我自己20年夾關沒有11年在辦速貪那我這11年辦速貪的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4188.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4199.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
這個行為即便沒有構成貪污罪條例的話他在刑法上面可能也會構成我剛剛說的那幾個條文那這部分我在跟部長報告有這個狀況也跟署長報告有這個狀況而且這些條文他的追溯權時效應該是20年沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4207.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4223.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我想說那個背信詐欺這個追逐權失效是20年那這個是補充剛剛黃委員在問部長的部分那我再請教一下那個署長還有那個調查局局長就依據監察院公務車管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4224.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4250.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
管理要點第八點其實他有要求這些公務車他出去的時候他必須要去記載他去了哪裡做了什麼那個詳細的記載那我不知道這一次他是不是記載說他帶小狗去美容因為這個才是當時派車出去的目的那這個部分可能也要稍微了解一下那我想最近調查局很喜歡辦偽造文書案件那調查局長也說過 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4252.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4264.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
作弊不辦嘛 我覺得有道理那偽造文書也是犯罪 所以電腦局辦偽造文書這個部分我們是沒有意見啦但是如果依據這個管理要點第八條 既然要做這樣詳實的記載那會不會有登載不實的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4269.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4282.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這就是一個我們要去思考或者是過往因為今天我們看到又很多人爆料有人接送小孩出國還是有人去看牙醫等等的那他們的記載是不是如實的記載 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4284.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4306.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
譬如說這一件是不是記載帶小狗去美容 這個我不知道既然調查局最近辦偽造文書辦得這麼專業那是不是也可以稍微了解一下 讓全民了解一下今天到底發生了什麼狀況 好不好那個署長跟局長這個部分可不可以請兩位去了解因為我國的法治沒有不能夠調查監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4307.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4319.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
他只是搜索之前你要先通知他們通知他的主觀我想這個刑事訴訟法有規定但是因為剛剛黃委員也有問這個問題我想我國並沒有法治規定說不可以調查監察委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4321.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4346.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
跟委員報告一下 就是說他的這個部分有分司法跟行政兩個面向在司法的部分 就是偵查的部分 我看那個就是已經有都已經向北檢提告了 所以這個部分我相信北檢這邊也會偵辦中 如果他要指揮調查局或我們的話 我們會這個也會去做調查那另外一部分 就是說剛剛委員有提到的這個監察院的自律還有審議委員會 它是偵查委員 監察委員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4346.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4368.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那正於這個部分上他們會去做評議如果有不法他也會去到檢方那我們也會請我們的政風在這一塊去讓他們多協助那當然就是我剛剛提到的他們的自律規範那一塊是他們自己的問題但是我剛剛另外有提到可能有涉犯刑罰的部分因為過往實務上面因為這種類型的行為而被起訴判刑的已經有非常多例子了 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4368.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4397.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那不能說今天我們面對不同人有不同的面對方式嘛這就奇怪了那其實我一直講求的一個點就是任何行為只要犯罪大家去查辦我不會有意見我要求只是程序上面要一視同仁所以之前這個國民黨很多地方黨部被搜索那我從頭到尾我的邏輯非常的明確就是偽造文書死亡聯署偽造贖押去查辦是應該的並沒有存在說作弊不該抓這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4397.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4414.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
但是我一直主張的是請程序上面要注意不該扣的東西不能亂扣那比例原則這個都是法律基本的概念不存在說我認為違照文書不該抓那一樣我們在面對監委的時候我也是麻煩各位在偵辦刑案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4415.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4443.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
犯罪就該抓該處理但是也請注意比例原則以及程序上面是否合法絕對不能對監察委員有濫刑搜索濫刑生押濫刑扣押或者是對他羅織入罪這都不可以我們要保障我們國人包括監察委員包括任何一位民黨員國民黨員或任何一個普通老百姓的在法律上面他們的權益都不可以對他們有程序上面的不合法好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4444.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4464.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好謝謝委員提醒我們會注意證據明確程序嚴謹跟保障人權是這部分再麻煩也不可以說違法詢問或者是中斷錄音或者是說去醫院視察結果是去醫院詢問這個都不可以這在程序上面都違法的好那我再請教一下那個副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4471.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4486.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我先簡單的說明一下一個問題啦就是這個公務車預算的執行啊這個也是你們在做審計的嘛對不對那你們有去了解一下監察院過去對於公務車預算執行是有什麼狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4487.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4513.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
個別部會他的整個公務車的使用狀況其實在整個公務車的管理手冊還有他們個別訂的相關規定其實都有一些檢核的做法這個例行所以我們一般不會做通案性的了解但是我們就個案有檢舉有違反規定使用也有個案我們受理個案還是會跟個案去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4514.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4537.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
好 謝謝副城議長那今天個案已經有人檢舉了這幾件了那就麻煩您還是要依據您的職責該查就查 該查辦就查辦 好嗎跟公民報告我們會去了解依法行政就好 我們沒有別的要求不需要特別針對誰 也不需要特別袒護誰依法行政就好 好不好那我在那個 請教副城議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4538.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4559.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
副縣長我想今年立法院有統三11個項目就是對於中央政府的統算我想這個項目非常的清楚就是對於中央政府的國外旅費、電費還有媒體宣傳這些等等我們認為非必要甚至服邊消費性浪費的支出這時候我們就加以刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4562.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4573.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
刪除的部分是6%啦那整個整體的總預算還是史上最高那甚至比蔡英文執政那個時候還多了3%我想這個是 沈院長一定很清楚這個點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4576.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4598.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這一次有關地方性的一般性補助款它其實是一個因波複 它是一個法律的義務支出是這個東西它是法律 我想說沈議長應該懂這個道理嘛那 對啊 但這段時間呢 被很多人拿來亂講甚至有很多側翼的律師 或者是網紅他根本搞不清楚法律 他就亂講一通事情啦包括什麼 這個什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4600.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4620.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
溯及記網違反現在的保護原則他根本忘記去看的是哪一天公佈的他跟總預算跟財化法是哪一天公佈他那個公文的暗號那個財化法是在總預算之前他們連這個功課都沒做就在那邊亂講說這個是溯及記網這連法律最基本的東西都搞不清楚再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4621.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4640.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
又有很多人在那邊扯說什麼這個是中央可以決定啦這個左語補助啦什麼等等的我想說我們等一下來跟沈議長請教一個問題啦因為我看到的一個狀況是中央我來把那個時序講一下好了啦這次地方性補助款它的時序表 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4642.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4670.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
2024年8月30號行政院先核定了各縣市政府的一般性補助款而且編入114年中央政府的總預算表它列為法律的義務支出這在民進黨的臉書也都看得到這叫法律的義務支出好那2024年9月20號行政院也函給立法院的這個114年的總預算包括這筆這個法律的義務支出都有在裡面民氣也在裡面好那2024年底呢各縣市議會也 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4672.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4693.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
通過了這個預算的項目 然後啟動2025年的啟動經費 這個也都時序是這樣好 那再來呢114年中央政府總預算呢 這個地方一般性補助款它的全額也在立法院三讀通過超越兩黨都沒有人去刪 三黨都沒有人去刪啦齁而且是在2025年3月21號經總統公布生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4697.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4708.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
當天也公佈了才化法 而且才化法的文號是在總預算之前我先講 在總預算之前不要再跟我扯什麼什麼獸疾忌王這種沒水準的話出來那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4711.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4727.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
2025年4月23號莫名其妙 主計總署就告訴行政院 給他一個建議說可以通令刪減全國22縣市的補助款那上一次呢 本院的牛許廷委員在問行政院的秘書長的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4728.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4747.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
問他說你們除了三六百三十六億之外你有沒有第二個方案你說要尊潔我們都予以尊重但是你除了三這個億這個方案之外你有沒有第二種方案有沒有討論過從中央政府裡面的錢去尊潔而不要動不動就砍地方政府就秘書長答不出來這個網路上YouTube上面都看得到這一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4747.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4766.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
所以我覺得很莫名其妙就是 我們的政府只想了一個道理當他的 我剛剛講的非必要性支出這些媒體支出 業務費用 電費 國外旅費我們希望他遵截了一些費用 不希望他服邊結果他被砍了以後 他第一個想到就是先砍地方政府的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4769.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4786.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
副城長 你是來自宜蘭嘛對不對 你宜蘭人我也常聽到人家說什麼你常都在談宜蘭你熱愛那個地方以身為宜蘭人為榮我聽到你很多同事都講過這些事情那你知不知道原本要給宜蘭的93.3億7月一次要砍掉10億 你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4788.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4808.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你知道這件事嗎 知道那你有沒有想過一件事情宜蘭的負債是3.85萬是全國22縣市第二高那你今天主席長來跟我們講什麼主席講說沒錢請地方政府去借那借的意思是什麼債留宜蘭子孫我在這邊說明債留宜蘭子孫 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4809.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4830.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
讓宜蘭人去背這個債越背越多這樣對嗎那有一些真的財務狀況很好像屏東他是沒有負債那是他們的縣長真的做得很好但是宜蘭因為長期他可能稅收等等問題他就是沒有錢嘛那主計長跟我們一句話去借錢啊所以我這個我不太能接受啦因為今天剛好你是宜蘭人我才特別特別提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4831.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4834.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
從過去的記錄就是統三通常會指定科目指定科目用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4861.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4886.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以過往是有統三嘛只是它指定科目用途但很多時候它是統三是讓被刪除機關我們尊重它 讓它自己去調配一些費用對不對 這個沈先生我有沒有講錯那所以呢今天這個錢統三是本來就有的請不要再造謠說這個東西過往沒有我覺得現在根本這個國家已經是一連串謊言這怎麼去教育下一代啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4888.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4906.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那再來齁我剛提到的齁我們還要去思考一個叫做中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法的一般性補助款這個東西以前有沒有被刪過我說這個辦法裡面的一般性補助款有沒有被刪過就跟委員報告這剛委員有一個時序表齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4907.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4932.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
比如說114年度其實在113年118年大概8月左右中央就會匡列一個額度沒有我只要問副省長你只要回答我這個問題過往基於這個政府補助辦法地方政府補助辦法這個一般性補助款過往有沒有被刪過好不然這樣我來講好了我查過過往沒有刪過副省長你有什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4933.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4960.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
因為這個部分一般性補助款的籌編跟分配是行政院主計總署的權責對那我意思是說這個因為您一定也懂嘛這個東西我查過過往沒有刪過您有沒有不同意見沒有好謝謝那過往從來沒有人刪過這個東西今天竟然大膽到刪除一般性補助款這些錢是用在弱勢用在小朋友用在教育上面就今天我們竟然去砍這個錢還好意思去砍這個錢結果變成什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4962.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4983.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
你們餓死算了錢我還是要留在中央大吃大喝啦你們地方餓死算了啦窮人餓死算了啦我中央還是要大吃大喝我今天看到的是這樣這竟然是主計長給的建議我就覺得我們是民主國家欸中央拿的這些錢也是地方這些人繳上來的稅你稅繳給我之後那你就等餓肚子這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4984.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5006.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
不合道理嘛 所以我一直有這個意見那今天又有人說什麼 才化法是說卓於補助然後還亂解釋這個條文 卓於補助要給多少其實不是這樣啊 你在中央對直轄縣市政府的補助辦法裡面你要去調配 你必須依據該辦法的四五六十二十三條才有理由去 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5006.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5034.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
去做調配耶而且調配不是說你可以愛給不給耶只是說各縣市你可以去考量他的財務狀況去做一些配比的調配就今天我們遇到的是從政府從上到下這些網紅這些宜蘭選出來的地方議員自己搞不清楚狀況拿著側翼律師亂講的一些法律上的用語拿著這個根本就不對的著於補助不是這樣解釋宜蘭自己當地選出來的議員耶出來那邊配合中央說這個錢就不要給 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5035.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5061.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
也不能訴訟因為這個有信賴保護有涉及既往的問題所以這我覺得不可思議所以我在說這個補助辦法它的規定不是說不能夠調配但它的調配是依據各縣市它的一些狀況或你預算執行的問題它去做一些調配並不是說我統一一律27%都不給不是這樣子所以中央政府請依法行政不能帶頭違法這個是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5065.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5094.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
更何況這些錢是真的是給地方上面弱勢團體去使用好我想那最後我就問那個部長法務部長不好意思時間到了這個我想部長跟這個調查局局長這個我上次已經有說了因為這個636億這個金額實在太大而且被害人都是各縣市政府或是弱勢團體那這可能會涉嫌一流客扣我上次有告發那這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5095.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5103.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
部長 局長請問一下檢察官有分案處理 內容我不問 怎麼爭吵我不問 請問有分案處理了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5104.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5126.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這部分我們有函請那個台高檢署議法來參與好 謝謝那還有我上次告發的選罷法104條第一項我對幾個部長還有那個副秘書長有提告發那這部分也要麻煩這個因為我們人 我是人民嘛人民有告發就麻煩要要依法處理 好不好偵查的內容一樣我對個案我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5127.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5142.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們這個不能去手伸進去 但是至少我可以問一下這個案子我告了 你們有沒有分案調查部長有嗎 上次104條 也有那這部分再麻煩你們一定要處理 所以我就跟你們講 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5144.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5166.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
真的是從中央政府公佈的公報來看並沒有所謂溯及既往的問題因為財化法它就照文號它其實是在總預算之前沒有溯及既往適用的問題那第二個著於補助的定義其實它要參照的是中央對直轄市縣市政府補助辦法不能說 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5167.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5184.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
隨隨便便亂用我覺得我很受不了那些一些網紅在那邊亂講然後也受不了一些地方選出來的議員不替自己地方的選民負責還在那邊配合中央在那邊胡說八道亂扯一些法律上面不對的地方那只為了幫自己所屬政黨護航這都不對好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5196.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5219.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
因為王複蜜另外還有藥物那待會王複蜜會先離開那下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們先請廉政署麻煩署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5228.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5252.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
好 署長好 署長在你們的報告裡頭你們目前正在進行一個叫做高風險政府採購案件全國性專案集合的一個計畫正在進行中那嘗試透過人工智慧去找出比較高風險的這個政府採購的弊案有可能是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5253.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5267.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那你們去結合了這一個公司登記就是你們叫做商工行政資料開放平台那也去結合了政府採購網然後也去結合了司法院裁判書的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5269.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5284.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那目前這個進行的狀況怎麼樣何委員報告我們因為廉政署的工作因為剛好委員間問我們要講說我們的工作其實是防灘 宿灘 再防灘防灘防灘是我們最優先的防止的防 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5285.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5299.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
所以說在防灘的這個工作上我們一直希望能夠再把那個觸角再往前延伸察覺到及早去察覺到風險的問題所以我們在這個今年度有透過AI的這個新的一個技術就是嘗試著 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5300.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5324.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
透過各個不同的跨領域的資料庫委員剛剛也那三個都是我們的一些資料庫還有其他的去做收集那我們針對一些已經出現的高風險的廠商去做一些相關的收集希望能夠針對到說比方委員剛剛講的那幾個部分就可以找到類似像是虛設行號人頭的一個公司還有一些是已經是拒絕往來的廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5326.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5347.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
這個是你們去找到這些廠商下一步呢下一步就是去做 叫我們的政風單位針對那些可能疑似是風險的一些這些案件去做一個專案的集合就從中再發現說有沒有 因為剛剛只是風險再去看有沒有違標 綁標或者是其他的不實驗證你講的都是事後事前 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5348.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5370.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
事前的部分也是我們會針對這個部分的一些查到的資料去做一些防灘指引跟一些宣導跟一些訓練讓我們的機關的同仁知道說什麼是可以做的我舉一個例子喔是就是說你們現在假設你們發現了某一個廠商你們判斷他高風險是那這一個招標案件進行中進行中喔然後你們系統已經偵測到說這個高風險這家廠商高風險好那這個標案進行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5378.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5392.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
下一步呢跟委員講我們現在連政署針對我們的政風就對機關採購的部分都有專業的執照所以我們在這個部分會協助機關針對於採購案的這個部分上有什麼任何的不法或疑慮的話都會提醒機關來做處理提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5394.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5405.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
如果有不法就會如果你們發現有高風險或者不法你們會提醒怎麼提醒他們也會列做如果真的有一些實證的話也會列入拒絕往來的廠商不是我是說這個標案進行中這個局處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5409.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5434.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
就是說你們譬如說各縣市有各個局處嘛各局處正標案正進行中有一個標案忽然間有一個你們原來就找到他可能是高風險然後他也來投標了那你們也找到了就是說他高風險那你們通知這個各縣市政風嗎那各縣市的政風處 政風室我們的政風會依照我們的廉政工作守則去強化那個監辦的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5435.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5448.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
就是說他在這個採購上的一些作為會更加強化強化是說你怎麼樣去提醒這個首長也許這個首長不知道 我舉個例子比如說各縣市的局處在做這件事情縣市長不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5449.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5458.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
對不對 先生講不知道喔 可是這明明就是已經是你們系統已經找到他高風險了喔而且他也正在進行中喔 那這個時候你們會做什麼這個會跟機關首長報告 進行中的也會 正在進行中機關只要察覺到機關風險 都會跟機關首長做通報就會做通報 那會不會打草驚蛇 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5472.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5499.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
當然我們會比較有技術性啦而且在這個機關上面來講原則上機關就是由機關首長來做一個這個算是主導嘛所以我們的相關東西都是看機關首長的一些決心跟作為所以我們原則上會協助機關首長來保護機關安全好那如果說這一個某一個單位他就他的這個單位的採購案接二連三假設他連續有兩三個案子都有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5501.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5526.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
結果我們在各單位的這個政風人員可能在政風室的主任人員也沒發現都沒發現喔然後已經又過了一兩年喔然後這個案子都已經是最後被偵查到那是一個很嚴重的弊案喔我們對這政風室的人員或各縣市的政風處的人員我們廉政署會做什麼事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5528.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5552.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
基本上連政署是負責政風人士的一個這個就是這個算是調派那也會對於業務上做監督指導那如果有相關上面裡面他們的一個作為上如果後來事後認定說真的是有一些疏失的部分的話我們也會當然會在這個升遷上以及是在這個業務上面或有行政處分上面都會去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5552.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5576.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
那這一個我剛剛為什麼一直提一條這個事前啊因為你剛剛說房貪嘛房子嘛那因為有一些是法盲嘛他不知道這件事情他不能做啦他不知道這件事情他不能做好我舉一個例子啦譬如說這個標案正在進行中那結果有廠商啊就找了這個局處長啊酒意吃飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5578.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5595.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那這首長也不知道這傢伙要來投這個單位的案子喔他就去吃飯啦 好那吃飯之後啊 欸 我們的政風能源也知道然後我們最後呢 也有接獲人家的這個不管是什麼舉報或什麼什麼 諸如此類的反正我們政風能源就知道了結果那一個廠商也真的來投標了欸 也真的得標了 廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5604.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5628.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
遇到這種狀況 你覺得你要提醒你們的政風人員或者你們要提醒這些首長啊就是說我剛剛講這個首長 上面的那個首長你們會做什麼事情啊跟委員報告 其實廉政署執掌的這個法規裡面有利益衝突迴避法然後我們也有這個廉政的這個倫理的一個這個守則所以針對一些相關的部分 該去怎麼做 然後該怎麼樣登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5631.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5657.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們都會去詳細的告訴機關包括首長他們都會知道該怎麼樣的一個分級那如果他真的有這樣的一個作為的話我們如果提醒不行的話那如果接下來就會有一些委員剛剛講的已經去標了甚至產生一些弊端他就會違反到立衝的一個規定我們現在立衝也會針對關係人事先去做一些就是說揭露就如果他還是比方說是這個有這樣的一個關係人的一個利益交易上面的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5658.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5673.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那這個部分上有可能就會違反立衝法那就是法律的問題了好我再給你一個建議你們現在在處理這個系統啊這個政府的電子採購網啊你們裡頭一直強調的叫做廠商人頭公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5675.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5694.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我再給一個建議 多連結一件事情就是這一個得標廠商的地址跟電話地址跟電話啦 因為他可能設了不同的名字或者是這一家公司已經被拒絕往來但是他同一個地址 同一個聯絡的電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5696.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5712.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他還是那家廠商就這個圈子都知道就是那一家只是他換了一個名字這一個連結可能建議你們要來注意第二個你們這一個報告是公開資訊嗎我們這個立法院的部分公開資訊公開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5716.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5738.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
公開資訊 因為你們進行中啦 還沒有結論成果的部分當然我們現在收集到的這些標案大概會請他們再去做集合大概預計在10月或者是年底的部分會出來成果的一個評估啦那我們都看得到 國人都看得到成果的部分是不會公開啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5738.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5756.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是這個目前的這個宣導的這個部分跟教導政風的這個部分會好那你們該公開就公開也不要把你們的所有的手法都跟所有的廠商講這也是很奇怪的事情那這個尊重你們好接下來我們請審計部的副審計長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5762.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5780.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
副審計長好這個審計單位每年都會針對這個前一年的這些狀況去做相關的審計那我請問一下各個不管是中央地方都有這些所謂的配車或者是公務車那如果一個直轄市的首長假日平日 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5790.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5798.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
坐著他的公務車跑去找廠商處理相關的這個容積率可能會圖利假日平日喔 坐著他的公務車審計單位如果發現你會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5814.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5841.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
跟委員報告就是一般如果個案在處理的時候我們都是以派車單的登載內容來看但是委員剛剛特別提醒的就是那些太陽其實那些太陽的資訊我們沒辦法掌握啦就是他個人實際的行程我懂我懂我的意思是說你們剛剛有提到說你們沒辦法去處理一個通案就是說通案 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5841.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5849.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
因為各個單位的規定都不太一樣有些單位是這個車配給你的連你要開回家都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5850.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5864.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那假日呢 你的首長 你不怕司機 你自己開這台公務車回家有些單位是可以這樣 對不對那有些單位呢 接送首長完了之後再怎麼演 這台公務車還是要開回那一個單位那這一個對審計單位來說啊你們就很簡單 他們怎麼規定那你們到時候做相關審計的時候你們就去看他那一個規定嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5876.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5903.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 那如果說這個單位規定說這台車 啊好你就好你啊啦反正呢 他就跟你講說你就是公務使用嘛齁那公務的這個範圍啊 見仁見智是見仁見智嘛對對那公務的範圍見仁見智 那過去也有發生一些案例啊 譬如說有一些人啊 就是說他也是這一個假日啊 他自己開車 開這台公務車啊 去找他伯娘 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5904.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5926.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
他說我有付郵費啊我高速公路的ETC的錢我也有繳啊後來就不知道怎麼樣的後來這個新聞就沒再報導了站在審計單位的立場這一種已經配給那個首長的這台車啊這個首長假日自己開還是晚上出去下班啊自己開 開出去然後去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5932.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5961.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
外界認為是私人可是他可能認為這是公務然後最後他就自己付了油費付了高速公路的通行費站在審計單位的立場你這個答案很重要因為現在很多人在看因為現在有被配車的單位的人很多你要一次講清楚就是說到底這些事情可不可以做假日喔 首長自己開著配車 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5962.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5975.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
跑去做他認為是公務外界認為是私人行程的這個然後他繳了油費繳了這高速公路的通行費那請問在審計單位立場會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5977.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6002.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
跟委員報告現在目前為止我們最上位的是公務車的管理手冊的規定針對首長、次首長專用車到底專用到什麼程度沒有統一的規定這個也就是會變成個案會審酌不是啦你沒有統一規定怎麼個案啊這個規定跟委員報告這個規定是這個首長我都要講這個首長他認為我這是公務啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6006.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6022.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我這是公務啊,外界認為說這哪有公務,這是私人行程,這哪有公務啊到現在回來回去的時候,你省區單位可能說我也沒什麼意見,沒什麼規定來來來,那我問廉政署好不好,廉政署,來來來這個怎麼辦,有人檢舉啦,我舉例說有人檢舉,然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6029.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6055.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個首長可能就被你們請來了所以你幾月幾號 你就自己開這台公務車走去 假設好 你是一個台北市的官員你開車開去台中那你說我去台中市政考察我去看台中做得怎麼樣啊 我不行他認為這是公務然後這個首長認為 外界會認為這是私人廉政署下一步會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6056.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6070.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
委員報告其實目前因為這幾個案件現在是在北檢的一個偵查中那個案的部分我們就不太去說那在於這個監察院內部他的監察委員的部分他是自律的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6070.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6085.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
沒有啦我沒有講監察委員然後如果說是一般的公務的部分我們的行政院是有車輛使用的一個規定那其他的院都有自己一個相關的規定所以很簡單就是你們按照每一個機關每一個單位他們的規定去辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6086.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6110.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
就是他們會有一個使用車輛的一個部分 我們會針對那個部分去看對 因為也許每一個縣市也都長不一樣那有些縣市它有些人 有些機關的處長 局長他是專遷專遷這個車子就變成你可以用嘛 對不對 審計單位就是各單位他們有他們自己的規定那對廉政署來說 到所有人檢舉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6111.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6135.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
你們就是看這個規定嘛 對不對看這個規定 這個單位說可以就是可以這個單位說不可以就可能會有貪瀆的問題嘛目前上面在法律的適用上面通盤上比較多的是背信跟詐欺跟侵佔然後加134條的一個部分比較多的以往的一個判決的一個結果是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6136.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6147.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以說圖利罪的話會不會成立 這個得比較看官員要見那署長你覺不覺得我剛問的這一些 不管是公務車 配車 專屬的什麼車行要不要全國訂一台 全機的 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6153.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6162.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你不能說受困 大家都自己頂自己的 自己頂自己的 到時候他可能換單位他不能在這個縣市 奇怪我在這個縣市當首長 當局處長我們那個縣市就可以 奇怪我換這個縣市 我用我以前的經驗來到這裡即使這一個政風單位在我上任的時候也告訴我說我們的規定是這樣 一分給你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6177.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6183.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
可是我印象中可以啊 結果我去幹了這個事情後來才發現說 原來這個管制不行啦這個事情 最後啦 我建議這個連政署或者是部長也在嘛或者是這個審計單位 大家參詳一下看專攻齁 要整頓好 要不然大家都要飛都要飛 這些事情其實是很麻煩的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6203.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6215.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好不好 這個你們研究一下 你也不用答覆我 好不好這個就是讓全國的公務員有一個依循的依據啦因為有時候公務員派公務車出去我請問一下 他如果去外面飛行到12點半 幾輪公務車去吃中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6223.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6226.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
幾多公務車去吃中午茶,吃到兩點半、三點,回到辦公室,叫他去用汽車,說這公務人員,12點半、1點、2點,還在餐廳吃飯,幾多公務車是在衝什麼, |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6240.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6244.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們廢棄到12點半,我們吃飯吃到2點這到時候,這社會觀感是這樣,新聞一出來,相片一出來後面調查之後說沒問題因為全部都照規矩來,沒問題這些公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6256.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6274.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他的臉、他的名字都已經在媒體上,無處聲援的啦,那都可能一、兩個月後才發現,其實他沒有怎麼樣啦這個我建議,就是...主管委員最後報告,就是說有不法的部分,都會依法去交給地檢署,或有貪瀆會交給廉政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6274.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6298.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那至於說我們會針對這一個公務車的這一個部分公車使用,我們會編那個防灘指引再一次的去提醒各機關,就是針對於這個公車使用的部分的一個界限跟分際OK,最好給大家一個指引啦,不然各單位自己打招呼不過我跟你講,有些公務員第一,可能是法門第二,他搞不清楚,第三,各單位規定因為也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6299.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6314.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以我們譬如說像我們最近這些案子我們就要去查那個單位的公務車使用規定因為每一個一定都不一樣啦你別說五院長不一樣啦各部位可能也都長不一樣啦這個規定都不同好不好好 大家一起加油 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請審發會委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6333.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6359.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
主席我想今天我看今天我們這個安排這個主題如何落實清廉政府及公務員獨職的樣態與防制這個安排這個議程應該是我們召委認為很緊急不是不是我剛剛有說明我知道你剛剛有說明我現在就要就你剛剛說明讓我聽得更是一頭霧水說原本原本你要安排的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6361.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6388.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
有關這個對地方政府一般補助對而且你還說一個因為你們開會我不知道召委排案是要開什麼會應該是你們國民黨我們自己國民黨有我們國民黨的做法那我想說我們是對一流客寇這是刑法獨職罪犯你本來安排這個而且我看你的質詢裡面你花了一倍的就已經超時一倍的時間就在講這個對地方政府補助反而你沒有在講今天的主題如何落實青年政府這個講的比較少前面有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6390.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6414.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那所以應該這個題目,這樣我認知你是臨時改的啦你可能是,你們國民黨我跟民進黨的邏輯不一樣,我這個人說話就是這樣這個間諜欣喜,然後就施設刑堂,想要在這邊施設刑堂把人找來在這裡,本來這可能是針鋒單位在進行事實的調查但是你們就一定要把人,在事實調查出來之前要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6415.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6437.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
當事人找來這裡施設刑堂然後羞辱一番這個當然當然他這個自己犯錯他要付出代價這個是一件事但是我看我剛聽起來就是這樣他說你說本來要排一般性補助款結果後來你也沒有說明理由為什麼這麼緊急的要落實清廉政府及公務人員堵車太陽之防制這個我就不是很清楚我剛有講你聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6438.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6459.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
我說一流克扣刑法獨執罪章,所以我剛剛問的內容也是跟636億有關嘛好沒關係,我尊重你的想法我也尊重主席的排案權,我只是認為說這種案件一發生然後都在調查程序中,就要把當事人調來這裡然後設一個刑堂,在這裡拷問他 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6462.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6482.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個我是覺得我個人是不太苟同這樣子把這個委員會我們寶貴的委員會時間拿來做這種這個政治利益的計算個人是很不太能苟同不過這個是召委的排案權我這邊不評論那我現在我們請這個廉政署署長麻煩廉政署署長署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6489.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6501.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
不好意思我這個人比較守規矩既然召委立了這種題目我們就就事論事就這個題目來如何落實青年政府及公務員堵值是太陽的防治我們就針對這個主題來討論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6506.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6525.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們現在聯證署組織法裡面,我們關於聯證署所主長的事項,包括貪污預防事項及推動執行,在我們法務部聯證署組織法第二條裡面有規定發款,這都是我們的權責。聯證署成立到現在已經10年了。100年成立,所以14年。 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6527.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6549.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
14年喔14年喔那14年這14年來事實上我國這14年來之後我看這14年這純就統計數字啦齁這個民間感受是有一次但我純就統計數字看起來我們的這個我們廉政的這個國際評比狀況是這14年來是提升還是下降國際的評比跟委員報告齁其實我們從100年開始喔他的那個我們在以 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6550.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6565.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
比較大的國際青年影響指數這個做來做說明在一開始的時候我們國家的名次大概是61分37名然後隨著時間的推移到30 31名然後大概是63分65分左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6566.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6592.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
最近我們已經到25名然後67、68這個分數跟名次所以整體來講我們是一直在進步在180個國家跟地區裡面我們目前86以上一直不斷的媒體都報導就一直不斷的有相關的這個貪圖等等這些情勢各案發生這個人民當然感受會覺得說現在好像跟以前還是一樣但其實我們時間拉長來看包括國際的評比 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6593.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6614.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
包括我們看過去國民黨執政的時候那種貪腐的樣子到現在大家回頭來看事實上台灣的這個廉政是有整體而言是有大幅的進步但是這個進步當然我們不能說因為進步了所以我們就很自滿這個進步我們還是要來看目前的我們還有什麼地方必須要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6615.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6640.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那我看我特別來找了我們就這個我們有一個叫做國家廉政建設行動方案它是按照這個聯合國反貪腐公約的施行法第四條它的授權的這個我請問一下署長我們這個國家廉政建設行動方案它是法規嗎還是行政指導它的定位是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6642.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6665.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
他是行政規則,他在98年訂定,他當時是把幾個像是端正陣風、掃除黑金的一些把它整合起來,然後變成國家聯合建設的行政方案所以他是一個行政規則嘛,對不對那你們這個行政規則裡面的第四項,有關具體作為的部分你們有一個副表,副表裡面有關績效目標的部分,這部分我有幫你們框出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6666.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6693.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
你們有提到說各機關每年就機關的整體業務要辦理廉政的風險評估是全面整體性的檢視現況請問這個我們這些這個廉政風險評估我們有定期公開嗎定期公開沒有定期公開沒有定期公開對那這個目前的一個績效大概都是完成率大概都在93%左右我知道就是你們都有請他們做一個評估但評估出來的東西到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6694.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6718.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
外界也不得而知再來你們有做的廉政風險評估那你們有沒有具體的改善或者是強化的措施我們也看不到這部分我是希望說我們廉政署能夠考慮是不是將這些定期的風險評估能夠公開或者是你們能夠做一個統整 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6721.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6738.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這個相關的風險評估讓國人能夠了解他之前是 現在是密件之前曾經有一段時間我們有做那個像是也有做一些民意的一個調查也有做一些公開但後來有一些就是有一些委員有一些不同的看法所以我們這個部分我們在研議在研議啦如果說你們認為公開上面有 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6739.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6760.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
有這個至愛難行或是有疑慮的話那你們也應該要把這個大家整體的這些風險評估之後你們做一些整理做一些整理之後把這個風險評估的這個抽象化的選擇讓他公布出來讓大家知道說能夠有這樣的但是重點是我看你們今天的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6762.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6786.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
法務部的書篇報告這個裡面你們有提到說在第一點有關廉政風險及貪賭太陽的趨勢裡面你們有提到廉政風險及本部的作為裡面第二點你們提到貪賭太陽的趨勢這是今天的主題貪賭的太陽這就列在今天會議的主題上面所以我特別的就看了你們有關於113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6788.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6813.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
你們引用了113年度的1月到12月的偵辦的這些貪圖案件的統計數字這個部分你現在138件 對對對對 我就指這個你們這個統計的結果你們就說整體涉案人員以地方行政機關居多這是第一點 地方行政機關居多第二點是職等是兼任委任約聘僱居多 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6815.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6838.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個你們結論是你們反你們認為說反映這個貪圖風險這個在基層執行面跟地方實務面操作這個風險比較高這是你們的結論對不對就是以現實的一個查詢狀況的數據統治是這樣子統計是這樣子嘛所以事實上這個整體涉案人員還是地方行政機關居多啦齁那但這個地方就讓我就是就是我還是從法規面我就來看我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6839.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6863.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
目前我們政風人員我們政風機構人員設置管理條例這部分我事實上我在這個上一屆的這個上一屆裡面我有曾經有提案修改這個政風機構人員設置管理條例第九條最主要是因為我們這個現行的制度我們現行法規它這個我們的政風人員在執行這個反攤跟防攤的這些速攤的業務的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6865.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6881.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
他必須要同時接受機關首長還有這個上級政風機構的這個指揮監督他等於是一個雙軌他一個政風機構他必須接受雙軌的指揮監督包括地方首長行政首長包括這個我們政風這一條邊的這個上級政風機構那我認為這樣子的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6890.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6914.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
他會有一個雙重角色的矛盾就是說就這個地方機關的尤其是我們剛剛自己的評估報告說地方機關的這個探討狀況是最嚴重的太陽是最多統計數字結果是最多但是卻地方的這些政方單位他卻因為他除了受你們這個上級政方單位的指導監督以外他還要受機關首長的指導監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6916.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6934.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以他這樣子的雙重角色他就很難他既要扮演這個地方首長的幕僚長他又要扮演維持著政風的人員所以他這個很難在他超然獨立心上面受到影響所以我們那時候一直有提案說希望他能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6936.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6953.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
主要是要讓他一元化受我們這個上級的政風機關的這個指揮監督這部分不知道署長你的態度你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告政風的工作確實是不好做因為他在機關裡面我們要協助機關把機關安全跟法尊做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6954.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6980.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那但是同一個時間因為法尊這件事情就是說依法行政這件事情是不能打折扣的所以依照我們給他們的廉政工作手冊就是原則上如果機關首長是沒有問題的我們要聽機關首長在裡面做行政上的各項的一個配合跟調查但如果你覺得機關首長這一個部分上是有問題的話可以有上級機關或者跟廉政署這邊來做這個部分這樣子太主觀了你把這個判斷交給他說你認為機關首長沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6986.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7002.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個我們是不是在法制上面我是覺得我們來研議在法制上面根本解決這種雙軌制的矛盾我們來看你看我看後面很多案子齁很多案子這些我都想了解到底我們我們現在看到的我們這些報導基本上都是都是檢調機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7005.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7010.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
有進行偵查所以新聞才會呈現花蓮文化局局長社攤因為鬧鬼所以去拿公款去包紅包給廟婆 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7021.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7036.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
像這種案子像這個個案我們花蓮縣政府的政風單位有事前舉報嗎在司法機關調查之前有沒有就這個案子有沒有跟委員講我們不太方便說我們哪一個政風單位有 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7036.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7054.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
去做就是說移送了什麼東西因為他這樣會在機關上的一個部分的就是接下來的作為會受一些這個就是我講的雙軌制之下但是我要跟委員報告說其實我們現在非常多的貪賭案件都是照比例上大概有一個大概的比例尤其是貪賭案件都是政風移送過來的像這個我們花蓮還有採購幣這個花蓮前教育處長的這個採購幣案 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7064.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7082.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那像我們剛剛召委非常關心我們宜蘭的這個林之廟縣長他的涉貪案這個我都不曉得我們像林之廟他的涉案我們政風單位這個有沒有事前通報委員報告其實這兩案件也都是跟地檢署還有廉政署接下來我們台中 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7083.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7099.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個台中的地政局長齁也是因為社級不適合交特別費啦齁這些都地方政府這就符合我們剛剛看的齁都地方政府的這個社攤最多啦齁我們這建設局長那我特別跟今天的的時事大家比較關心的有關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7102.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7129.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
2020年五年前這個台中市的建設局長陳大田他就被檢舉濫用公務車但是這個局長我不曉得這個案子有沒有立案調查五年前的案子他現在好像還是建設局長我們現任的建設局長好像就是這一位他在2000年五年前就被檢舉濫用公務車 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7131.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7138.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那這個但是這個他濫用公共車的時候這個被檢舉之後那時候的台中市政府表示齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7139.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7164.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
就是盧秀燕 盧秀燕表示說我們市政府的政務官不分24小時都要待命服刑所以局處長公務車的使用都是實際的需要自行決定停放地點這是盧秀燕的台中市政府講的我不曉得這五年 這個是不是能夠去了解署長去了解一下這個案子當初我們到底有沒有立案我們這個廉政單位有沒有立案 有沒有調查其他 我看其他台南市 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7165.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7179.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
台南市的雲林縣的這個民進黨執政的這些縣市的這些首長他們如果有涉及這個公務車濫用的好像都被起訴還被判刑了台中市他們就說因為24小時待命所以沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7181.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7203.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
跟委員報告他剛剛有說明就是說其實因為他的中央或地方他其實每個對公務車輛的一個規定他還是有點不太一樣的那所以我們在大部分所以盧秀燕的愛將沒有關係他五年他到現在還可以再繼續當就對了他也是一樣公務車應該是要依法行政啦我們一向的態度就是說他如果有 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7204.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7225.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們這個廉政體系經過多年發展事實上我們這些房攤的法規跟執行規範基本上我們這些法規方面是已經相當已經這個這個深於完備了但是我們在執行面上面包括我剛剛所提的我們現在地方的這些這些這個廉政單位他的雙軌制他必須同時接受地方首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7226.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7246.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
的指揮監督跟接受上級政府單位的指揮監督這個部分我個人認為說有檢討的必要啦那這個部分我希望說我們廉政單位謝謝委員我們會要求他們一定要務必依照我們廉政工作所的措施然後在法律這一件事情有違法我們還是會要求他們辦的謝謝好 謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7260.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7280.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
主席有請這個法務部長還有廉政署署長好 麻煩法務部長 廉政署署長羅委員 那個立委是要監督官員不是護航的喔喔 呵呵呵我現在咳嗽 不要讓我笑好 有請 請教一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7283.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7305.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
監察院的李靜玉秘書長他用公務車接送愛犬美容還把公務車刀成Uber E-way自家送餐那他用一句思慮不周然後本來想交代過去但看火越燒越大不敢到立法院接受質詢就坦誠有負職務廉潔標準然後匆匆請辭秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7309.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7329.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那我剛剛也看到前面有多位委員針對公務車使用的部分,大家有很多的一些意見跟看法。那我想請教一下,部長跟署長你們都有配公務車嘛,對不對?有。先請問署長好了,請問您會把公務車拿去送愛泉美容嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7330.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7359.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我也沒有養狗沒有養狗不會做私人的事情不會做私人事那所以也不會把公務車拿去當Uber E-way自家送餐嗎我們完全遵照行政院辦的車輛使用規定不可能的事情對不對 部長這應該不用問你們這兩件事都不可能在你身上發生吧我沒有養狗你就算有養狗有養寵物也不會發生這種事吧這個不會這樣對嘛 不可能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7360.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7382.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我跟各位講 剛剛不管是藍綠的委員 白的委員 都有講標準問題但有些東西就是真的是離譜把公務車拿去送愛犬去美容 把公務車拿來當Uber E我也當過 我也有派過公務車 我在總務府當副秘書長的時候 這也不可能發生的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7384.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7403.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那我不知道為什麼我們的偉大的李俊逸就會發生這種事情但是沒有關於他個人的行為我們今天問的是法律的問題事實上過去很多關於公務車使用的一些案例那我們來看看他的法律的結果是什麼我來請教兩位首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7405.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7432.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我想請教一下剛剛兩位都說你們不會把公務車拿來做私人的使用當作私人汽車使用不會嘛 對不對那你知道雲林縣2021年有一位戴姓的消防局長他被指將局長坐車當作私人汽車使用遭監察院彈劾那你知道最後法律的結果是什麼嗎他面臨什麼樣法律的結果請問部長知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7434.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7449.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個我不清楚我告訴你懲戒法院判他休職兩年刑事部分依公務員假借職務上機會犯背信罪判刑一年緩刑三年這是這個案例的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7450.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7469.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那2021年也發生一個台北市警局交通分隊的歐姓小隊長騎公務車 機車與友人參與後 又騎車返家休息那我想請問署長 你知道他最後的法律結果是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7472.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7499.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
檢察官認為他涉犯公務員假借植物機會背信罪那因為認罪無前科啦所以給予還起訴一年然後再來2021年台南市政府民族事務委員會主委汪志敏因為搭乘公務車前往大學進修參加婚宴、壽宴、私人餐敘我想請教一下請問那個署長你會搭公務車到 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7500.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7504.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
參加所謂大學進修嗎會去參加婚宴嗎搭公務車原則上不會我們部長會嗎這個要看那個業務的一個性質看業務性質有點模糊空間啦會搭公務車去參加壽宴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7525.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7541.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這個就是要看業務性質如果是這個這個受驗的話這個屬於那個機關業務聯繫有關的這些的話那當然那會搭公務車參加私人餐敘嗎私人餐敘這個不會搭公務車當私人餐敘那你也要看這餐敘性質啦對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7544.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7571.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
部長我跟你講 我沒有價值判斷這些行為到底是該不該當所謂的一個形式的一個犯罪所以我才問說兩位你們處理的規則是什麼那很明顯不會搭公共車去大學進修嘛 對不對不會啦 就算有這個進修的機會也不會搭公共車去大學進修嘛但是婚宴 壽宴 私人參許那可能就要看業務性質屬性了嘛 對不對但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7573.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7578.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
台南地檢署是以背信罪提起公訴這件事情 然後判處20萬罰金再來 2022年屏東縣警察局 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7587.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7605.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
莊信芬局長在休假期間駕駛公務車到南投縣等地訪友及採購物品我想請問一下署長你會在休假期間駕著公務車去外縣市訪友然後採購物品嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7608.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7634.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
市議上我上下班都是自己開車啦我們的公務車的部分運用上我們會嚴守用公務的部分來判斷非常謝謝 部長呢也是嘛 不會嘛 對不對不會嘛 然後他也被拔官移送地檢署偵辦然後2023年基隆市警察局無信保防科長使用公務車接送七小兩位會用公務車接送七小嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7635.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7662.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
不會啦 對不對不會嘛 對不對所以這個也是一條線嘛那他也被依詐欺罪移送基隆地檢署偵辦2024年監察院通過彈劾金房部林姓參謀長因為他讓到金門遊玩的親友搭公務車你會讓你的親友出去玩搭公務車嗎也不會嘛連問都不用問嘛 對不對這不可能的事嘛他公器私用被彈劾啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7663.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7680.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
然後今年1月 松山分局的張姓袁景 開公務車繞道送蛋糕給過生日的女友然後想請問 會開公務車繞道送蛋糕給夫人嗎 會不會 也不會嘛 也不會嘛 對不對 會嗎 也不會嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7688.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7709.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那可是呢 這個行為就遭到台北地檢署 依公務員違背職務損害他的利益等罪 給予緩起訴處分 需繳酷一萬元我跟你講 這太多啦 我講不完啦 我講不完啦可是今天為什麼我要講這件事情我跟部長 跟我們的署長講 確實我承認啦 剛剛前面有幾位委員也有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7711.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7735.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
他有一些標準的問題 好比方你剛剛講參敘那跟參敘到底跟你的業務關聯度是如何可能他有點模糊地帶要釐清對不對可是這零零總總我跟你講我沒有看到比載愛犬去美容把車 公務車當Uber E大概在所有攤檔裡面 這兩個我們李俊逸最扯欸 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7737.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7763.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
你去參敘齁 你還可以講說這參敘跟我業務也有關係啊 對不對那你參加婚宴 壽宴我也可以說跟我業務也有關係啊 對不對部長你可能也覺得說這個可能跟業務有關係啊可是你把你的愛犬拿去用公車去美容我想要請問署長囉按照這些通通被判刑 通通被法辦的標準你今天要不要被判啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7764.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7788.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
委員報告 目前這幾個案件都有告發到台北地檢署我真的就是要看著啦因為太離譜嘛確實我剛才還是強調前面很多的委員在講公車使用有每個地方的標準規則可能不一樣但是沒有一個地方會跟你講說我可以帶著愛犬去美容啦應該沒有這個標準吧署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7789.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7812.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
不會有這個標準吧標準就是要符合公務啦就是跟公務有關對啊 所以我今天在這邊我要跟部長說外界確實在看著這件事情你有些邊緣地帶大家還要再去觀察一下因為這還要釐清比如釐清餐敘的性質 釐清活動的性質 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7814.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7842.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
送狗 送牠的愛犬去美容把車子 公務車當Uber E來去用我看也不用去釐清什麼性質啦純粹就是公器私用如果別的人公器私用都沒事 我覺得那是一回事但是很抱歉 我剛剛念了那麼多還沒念完呢那麼多的案例裡面我就要問到底李俊逸這個我們這個是怎麼樣他是把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7843.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7868.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
把這個他家的愛犬也當成監察委員了嗎也當成是在去經辦業務嗎所以因此在這邊我們是要看看到底我們今天我們的檢方啊現在已經告發了嘛 廉政署這邊也接到告發了嘛對不對沒有 那是民眾 就是直接民代直接到北檢去告發對啊 所以大家就等著看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7869.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7894.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
如果我剛剛念的這些都有事情的話我真的就要等著看李靜韻到底有沒有事情啊不是持官就了事 沒錯吧請問部長這種法律的刑事問題不是持官就結束的嘛那這個就是由檢察官來做了解調查對不對 我想問署長如果犯了所謂的不連結貪污或者是背信一些刑事上的一些公務員獨職的問題辭職就可以 責任就結束了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7899.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7920.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
官委員報告他的案件調查其實要看構成要件因為在之前有很多的案子其實是有移送然後判刑也有一些沒有移送他的標準你完全講到重點了完全的標準就是說他有一個用點我告訴你你完全講到重點了那標準真的浮動啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7921.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7946.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
不是 跟委員講 就是他其中有一個我剛剛有一個 我沒有問的2018年時任移民署長 就中央級官員然後帶著妻子搭乘公務車旅遊 你知道他的結果是什麼就辭職而已 對不對所以我就要講 同樣的情形在地方的時候 他就判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7947.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7974.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
那中央好像奇怪啦 就沒事啦跟委員報告一下 他那個在車輛使用上他有首長的一個用車的一個部分還有一般派遣的部分那派遣的部分會有派車單跟油料的一個問題那所以說在這個部分上會比較有牽涉到那個就相關我們剛剛談到的那個部分當然首長的部分也必須要去觀察啦是不是有公務員的違法我當然知道啦 我就說過齁如果有些派讓齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7975.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7998.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
就像我剛剛講餐巿、壽宴、婚宴那中間你到底他算跟你業務的關聯度如何啊那是有個案要去釐清啦這一點我也認同啦可是就像剛剛前面兩位講的嘛我們在質詢過程當中不用再為禁慾再去找任何的一些緩狹的空間了啦這兩件事情就赤裸裸的公器私用已經是踩到底了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8000.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8024.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我跟你講我還是那句話我剛念那麼多的案例沒有比他更離譜的啦有嗎有哪個比送狗去美容離譜的哪一個有比送狗去美容離譜的把車子當Uber Eats離譜的有一個警察也就是騎著車拎個蛋糕去給女朋友就有事啦他有像我們李靖鈺帶著狗去美容嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8027.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8046.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
他是繞個路送個蛋糕去 也有事啊所以不要說今天這公務車當然標準 說真的 大家好好去想想標準不一致的問題也是個問題可是有些核心的地帶就是明顯有 按照過去這些判準判例我真的拜託啦 檢查機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8049.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8068.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
不要讓大家覺得說好像又遇到民進黨的要員李靜韻是民進黨的要員喔大佬喔遇到民進黨的要員又沒事了重點是今天質詢完因為辦案還需要時間啦對不對辦辦辦一個月兩個月半年之後一年之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8070.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8094.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
發現風頭過了 悄悄悄悄又沒事了這是我們經常會有人覺得說今天辦案標準不一致讓大家會對司法沒有信心一個原因所以拜託啦 努力一點好不好這是請署長跟部長能夠去看看社會大眾的期待以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8108.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8125.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
謝謝主席有請我們法務部正部長麻煩部長我們調查局陳局長陳局長我們人事總署我們培訓的今天人總也有來人總代表請上來一下 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8126.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8151.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
不好意思 很白問你 問的差不多是一些個案 問你也沒意思其實剛剛在前面幾位委員所的質詢 我也都表達尊重確實監察院是一個監察跟糾舉 彈劾 都是彈劾別人的地方當然對象是別人 針對於監察院自己 確實是守住這個分寸 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8153.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8176.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
民眾也會這樣的一個要求啦那今天我看到李俊俊秘書長他也勇於認錯也辭職啦在官場裡面就辭掉了那其實就等於是人頭落地嘛那其實也是表達最大的一個態度啦那至於個案其實本院很多委員在這邊指指點點意義其實也不大就給 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8179.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8202.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們依法該怎麼去處理人就怎麼去處理但是我倒會覺得另外一個問題涉及到比這樣的一個案件不法程度更高的我反而會覺得更可怕因為畢竟按照我們整個個資法第53條的規定華務部是應該會同中央目的事業主管機關去訂定特定目的跟個人資料類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8203.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8214.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
提供公務機關跟非公務機關來倉庫做使用就是說各自要怎麼贏這好不容易跟人家領一些職員啦現在主管機關當然不是你們啦但問題是這職員到底要怎麼做我現在看到幾個機關以後我看的都是提心吊膽為什麼這樣講咧就是說老百姓各自最大的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8226.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8231.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
以世衛大眾的看法是說 喔 詐騙集團 會想哭喔 會被人家拘捕 拘災散最近發生的 未必 現在最大的風險在政府機關啦政府機關會給人家洩密 政府機關會給人家提供老百姓的個資那本來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8248.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8259.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
政府啊 掌握這麼多老百姓的個資啊你也要好好保護他們才對我都一直認為沒有特別重要的目的到 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8260.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8278.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
要制定法律來授權以外要收取任何老百姓的個資這都不對啊這都不對啊我還記得市要委員還在那個地方我當年在當台北市議員的時候我們台北市以前在訂定那個自治條例就設置那個監視錄影器那個部分我是帶頭反對我是帶頭反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8280.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8284.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
本來就沒有那麼多 後來台北市就設置了當年設置了一萬多支新北匯更多 那看每一個首長的看法就是說你大量的 當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8292.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8309.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
敵不過我們當初是敵不過民粹他也有道理所以我們就制定這個自治條例就是說為了治安的問題提供一些熱區嘛打擊犯罪嘛甚至於為了交通所以廣設一些監視器後來我們就把它法治化了這還講得通 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8311.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8331.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
但是呢 把大量的資訊 老百姓的行蹤 各自隆重掌握在政府的一個手裡那是到最後最大的破口來自於政府的話 這就很糟糕譬如說 大家來看看最近整個罷免案這些荒腔走板的 大家應該看到了公務機關的法制概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8333.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8342.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這看起來真的是薄弱到是髮盲啊真的是髮盲啊個資保護這樣的一個破口有多嚴重其實應該都要去做一個修補我簡單就舉幾個案例比如花蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8346.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8351.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你看 這個標準的民政處長的帶頭違法 原來聯署說有沒有異議的那選委會應該是寄這個詢問單去董事林嘛他也問說是不是你簽的 花蓮 欸 沒 直接夭壽的民政處長的帶頭違法這個標準的就是查水表啦叫護證人員 叫IU去按門鈴 問人家有沒有簽名是不是本人 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8371.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8378.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個就代表說我們公務機關那個法制多薄弱那這種做法當然是嚴重違反了各執法的一個法律的一個所謂的職務的必要的一個範圍這個叫做公務人員濫權另外第二個你去看藍投 附證資料現在保證機關自己會去發明 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8393.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8404.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
自己去自創規則這很明顯的就是一種政治上的一個審查就變成你要去罷免立法委員的指控現在人家說你重複去做刪除這個中選會現在就說我現在來做一個捕破網但是你互證系統本來你是供查驗姓名戶籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8416.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8425.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
你根本就沒有法源去拿出來說我拿去跟這個比對簽名單的一個筆跡啊可是這個非常糟糕啦 非常糟糕那第三個 你看基隆哪有一個處長親自去開後門report你把整個服政系統變成一個選舉的一個武器庫你把公權力變成一個政爭的一個幫兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8441.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8449.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我不知道柏中你看到你會不會覺得這樣會硬起來其他的當然我們常常去看到就是說像新北那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8451.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8459.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
也不是特別要點心肺,各個地方都會有,只是說他比較矚目消防人員,你把報案的人,除了你賣給殯葬業者或是說,你調查局的,局長你都知道,你身體那些你的非法查詢系統,你就把那些個資,去賣給討債集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8476.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8486.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
保護人民 政府擁有這麼多的個資是要保護人民你們變成到就是出賣人民 這哪通這種不法是更可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8489.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8510.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
任何事件的一個發生我們去探究他到底有沒有違法可以啊 多通啊所以我說我尊重在今天所有在委員會各個委員的一個質詢啊可是如果要談那個不法的一個程度的話這個更可怕了這個本來富有保護人民的一個義務到最後都是在出這個出賣人民啊所以我要請教就是說 柏定你整個法務機關你柏定啊 你法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8514.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8522.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
你不是主管機關,但是對於各個機關裡面提供法律這樣的一個指引喔,這是你們的慷慨啦,你也說兩句給大家評判一下,你們看不見他怎麼樣比較好,我等一下還要問人總,你人總我看你培訓的失敗, |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8531.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8555.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
失敗了那你當然可以回答我就是說培訓很成功人性就是惡劣先不跟你講謝謝委員有關你那個洩露個資的這個問題他查水表這邊這邊相關的就是地檢署對我在偵辦中是我知道以法務部的立場我們這種我們沒辦法去允許有這種偵辦那另外就是剛才委員有提到那個法盲的那個問題那個對竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8558.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8575.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
竟然會致意的會提供這部分那我想這部分我們可以再請那個再做一個法律上的一個宣導那我想這個我會責成那個廉政署那個政控處在機關的這些的公務機密的有維護這部分以及對各自的一個保護這邊我們會再做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8579.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8592.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
一個加強來給各級的機關來做一個嚴守這個政府資訊以及個人秘密以及公務機密的一個維護那我想我們可以做這樣的一個努力是啦 我覺得補充應該就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8597.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8613.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這個指引真的要出來這個已經不只是濫權的問題有的濫到他自己本身不知道違法耶我現在發現他們可能認為他們不曉得那個叫做違法耶我感覺是不是說頂一個指引料去跟他們說人總為什麼我請你上來的原因就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8613.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8615.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
其實在培訓的過程裡面,你也有很多網站,現在都在說AI,你們在說的就有很多人,我看你們都二十幾萬人在看你們各自的這個你們也應該去上網,創一個比較有趣的,讓公務人員去知道,唉唷夭壽這不行喔,這個是設法 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8632.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8657.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個涉及到違法是不是人種這個地方也應該針對於你像譬如說去建議整個公務體系這些限制到個資的部分你應該加密或者如何去升級築起一個更高的牆來保護老百姓這個涉及到整個制度的一個重建了啦尤其是你們在平台公務人員違法這些法律的一個知識這麼的貧乏的部分是不是該想想也想想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8659.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8681.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
是委員好跟委員做說明其實為了協助提升公務員對於廉政廉政政府跟公共服務跟倫理教育的重視其實我們在106年起就把廉政與服務倫理的課程納入公務員每人應該完成的學習時數那就我們這邊所了解到像113年來13年的統計資料顯示就是我們開課的機關總數已經達到500 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8689.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8697.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
515個課程然後各機關辦理的總場次有3356場次那參與的人數有高達27萬多人那學習的總值數也達到41萬那我自己肯定啊我現在要跟你說的就是那部分有很多人看啊你甚至於你像譬如說涉及到各自的基本法律常識你也要去設計啊讓人家覺得有趣味啊不然大家要看都要學英文的啦對這都沒人要去看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8718.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8740.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這也不好啦 因為畢竟公務員培訓室裡面我最後要請教局長的就是說 局長那個罷免 那當然連署已經結束了但是違法的就是違法啦我剛去指出這一些的 就是說這一些很多涉及到到底它是濫用 還是它刻意違法 很明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8742.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8762.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
有公務機關裡面的 它也許是法律知識的淺薄但是也涉及到很多其實它就是標準的一個違法你也不能說這樣就算了 全部都放棄了 那也不對啊我想這個除了濫用以外也是違法那當然是違法 開什麼玩笑嘛 人死會起來人死命會沾起來 這個一定有人不要亂啦 現在在質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8766.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8772.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我最後要講 其實大法官針對這個部分我語重心長啦 柏中你給柏中聽一下我們大家看603號跟608號那憲判的111年13號都強調這個整個資訊隱私權是憲法保障的基本權所以我們現在這部法律在司法法治委員會在審 全兩條保留處理但是我在這邊提醒 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8791.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8802.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
美國法院提的馬賽克理論要提醒他要去提醒每一筆手碎的個資你去把它串聯起來就是一個人完整的人生所以政府保盟對於人民的個資這個部分任何自黨執政都不應該變成政治上的一個籌碼更不應該變成非法模擬的黑市的資源這個保盟我就要求調查局看不看得到你們這個要強力去打擊不法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8819.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8820.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
這個不能間斷的啊好不好 阿不然你們做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8825.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8850.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好不好做一個各機關 涉及到這樣法律這些你們必須要去提供一些指引的我們也趕趕到重重的 要不然你們不會理啦 我跟你講啦有時候你會覺得說 我要修 那到底是法律知識不足還是真的是 真是說他到底要去違法咧我們不如 我們該做的把它做一做公務人員你應該有法律知識 那個是一個基本嘛這法務部我們也請你負起必要的責任好不好好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8854.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8872.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我想請問一下那個吳委員 鍾委員我們要不要先讓他們休息五分鐘還是你們要接著因為已經快11點了我想說先讓那個官員休息五分鐘那我們剛剛真的委員同意那我們就讓官員先休息五分鐘好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9232.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9246.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我們繼續開會我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言今天人不多你都要講久一點沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9250.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9262.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
謝謝溫柔和愛的朝偉 平常就要保持這個樣子我們都努力 謝謝好 請法務部長好 麻煩部長調查局長好 局長然後我請人事總處好 任總委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9268.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9287.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
大家早安剛剛在內政委員會我們同步在審議地方制度法的一些修正條文那當中有關61條的修正草案我想剛好跟今天教委所排的這個速攤然後聯能政府的打造的這個部分相關所以我就教於幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9288.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9305.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
也就是說現在啊選罷法的地方制度法的規定啊如果犯了選罷法117條然後重點就是貪污治罪條例那種重大的這種貪毒案件那被判刑之後是停職嘛那停職的期間是否應當發語心急啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9312.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9331.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我剛剛在內政委員會我才知道是法無名文所以過去是依人事總署的一個函文然後來授權給主管機關也就是內政部去看看這個被判刑的地方首長他是否因為被停職而影響他的基本生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9332.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9359.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
以及要去看他的違法失職的程度有多高然後來決定是完全停發他的薪給或者是給予半薪在他停職期間這是現在法無明文了所以內政委員會在審地方制度法的時候幾位委員共同提出了修正動議就是認為只要觸犯這一類的貪污治罪條例被判刑雖然沒有到最終的定讞 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9360.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9365.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
都在停職期間一律來停止新級的核發你們同意嗎這邊我尊重那個委員的一個提案那人事總署你們同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9374.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9395.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這部分委員好 我們也尊重委員會這邊的決議我個人認為法盡量有明文比較好否則你讓主管機關去裁量這個是非常怪的那第二個層次就會進入第二個問題就是說如果他停職而且都停止給予他的薪給發放但是他最終被判無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9397.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9407.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以要復職 那復職之後是不是就應當來補回他的心脊 對不對來 人事總署 您就直接 專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9411.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9433.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
報告委員因為這一塊我比較不是那麼清楚不過原則上應該是應當就是好這是第二個層次我們也都同意所以剛剛我們在修正的條文有做這個處理但第三個層次問題就來了他在任期內復職之後給予他新級的補發他無罪平反了之後但如果他已經卸任了 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9434.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9442.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
他卸任了以後 他的官司最後定讞他被判無罪那即便他卸任了 請問他的心脊要不要一併的補發這是剛剛樓下在審議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9448.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9469.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
幾位委員的意見都還沒有一致所以我剛好藉這個機會跟我們今天的聯能政府貪瀆的這些作為相關委員很抱歉這問題我比較不清楚好那我問部長就一個當事者他一度被犯罪嫌疑人他定驗之後恢復了他的清白他的身份是地方首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9470.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9483.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那應當要補發他的心急不管他是復職的時候是在任或者是他卸任因為有時候官司走很久嘛你認不認為都應當一併的來給予平反包括他的心急的補發 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9486.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9494.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
這部分如果複指的話複指的話這個法律我不清楚那這部分案理是比較合理是不是應該補發嗎好 謝謝你們的答案因為剛剛在樓下我們跟內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9502.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9530.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
跟樓下的人事總處的相關人員包括幾位不同政黨立委大家對於這件事情的法律見解不太一致但是我個人認為如果他被定驗之後平反了恢復了他的清白不論他在補發薪金是應當的而不管他是在職或是卸職都應當一併的補發這是我的主張我想部長也認為合理上應當是這樣因為現在法無明文所以我們才要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9532.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9558.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個我們都尊重那個委員的一個立法的一個政策好因為這沒有發生過這可能目前適用就高鴻安這個案例但我們應當好好就法制面來做一下這個演繹謝謝幾位的寶貴意見那進入我今天來另外一個主題來可能是這個局長這邊這中國的直播主狂拍學童到底是單純的治安事件還是國安事件下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9559.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9576.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那陸配拍這個真的是狂拍啊那在我們培育委員5月19號就在法治委員會垂詢過警政署你們認為呢兒少權法、個資法、刑法法案明明都可能觸犯所以要來啟動偵辦5月21號蘇曉慧委員在陸委會內政委員會也質詢了陸委會他們更認為他恐怕不是指示治安事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9586.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9606.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
而之後呢5月26號台北市警察局已經開始巡線追查中但是即便之前告發的這個案件開始巡線追查但是又有新的一起陸配又開始繼續拍所以說他就是一再的發生一再的發生下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9607.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9636.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
而且拍攝的不只學校學校除了涉及對學生的兒少權法或是個資法或是妨礙秘密相關的可能觸犯之外可能學校都是一般大家知道的避難場所會不會有蒐集一些情搜的可能而這一位陸配我剛剛來圖案有揭示出他5月23這位叫阿梅的陸配除了去拍學校他又去拍道路警察執勤的畫面 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9637.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9657.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
又去拍了松山機場的軍機起降的畫面所以我高度懷疑他已經不只觸犯了我們警政部門認定的治安的犯罪他真的很有可能跟國家安全組織性的犯罪相關下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9658.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9675.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以說我是很擔心啦個資法用哪一條辦妨礙秘密公開直播算妨礙秘密嗎兒少權法是不是能夠成立我實在要尊重檢察官跟後續法官的偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9676.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9697.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
但是我在追尋法務部長跟我們調查局長主要是在組織性的國安犯罪的層次那台北市警察局開始辦了那國安的部分是不是調查局也開始同步來跟委員報告我們也高度關切這一個狀況那目前我們也在 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9698.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9714.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
收集資料中那有關刑事調查的部分那個檢察官已經都立案了那我們關切的其實是另外一個國安層面他是不是有境外敵對勢力一個系統性的一個犯罪的一個這樣子的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9714.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9741.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以局長所說第一個你們也高度懷疑可能涉及了國安的疑慮這是第一件事第二件事所以你們也已經啟動了相關的偵辦的動作已經開始進行了那請問是針對一案兩案還是全面性都已經好幾案在辦現在目前已經呈現出來的這些狀況每一案你們都綜合在辦理當中然後會去了解他中間是不是有脈絡的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9743.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9765.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好那因为这是这段时间的心生事物那希望能够在侦办之后能够有具体的结果而且能够有效的喝足这是我们共同的责任辛苦了那个局长请回那部长您继续留着不好意思今天借这个机会我要再一次针对我一再催生倡议的反歧视法 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9766.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9790.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
再一次就教於您喔真的是指紋樓梯想不見人下來下一頁我開始在唱一反歧視法主要是我過去在教育文化部門在校園有非常多歧視原住民族或是歧視身心障礙或者是性別的歧視性言論教育失靈了嗎下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9791.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9810.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
但是呢 政治圈更是變本加厲 失言平平從我個人 我個人還在競選的期間就被以我的未婚單身的身份沒有生小孩的身份被嚴重的歧視說吳斯堯會絕子絕孫快50歲了就不能生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9816.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9839.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
一直到我進入這一屆的立法院我認為這一屆的新國會應當是更有進步意識的但是並沒有我們的國民黨的羅姓的委員也對著我說姐姐你這麼老了閃邊去吧這是在我們議事廳發生的事而到最近喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9840.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9869.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
大罷免的浪潮這麼的風起雲湧非常多的委員可能承擔了很大的壓力馬文君委員前幾天的把罷團說成是福壽羅是外來物種謝龍介委員詛咒別人生著小孩沒屁眼林佩祥委員把這些公民朋友把他貶義為社會邊緣人就像是狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9871.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9899.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這些是不是都涉及嚴重的歧視性言論這個講是對有一些歧視的一些的意涵那包括我們的韓國瑜院長在這個辦公室朝野協商對著柯建民總召說出要吃藥之類的或者是對於我們執政黨的三位黨鞭說出一龍二鳳這種話是不是嚴重的歧視性言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9900.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9924.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這個歧視的言論我想這部分我們都是不贊成的那我們覺得在人與人之間的互動應該要以那種彼此禮貌讓人家覺得很不會反感的這些更重要的是歧視性的言論要關乎的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9926.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9941.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
當事者他的感受是什麼就像我們對於性騷擾這種言語騷擾一樣的如果被歧視被言語攻擊或是被人身攻擊的一方他感受到非常清楚的不愉快非常清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9942.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9959.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
被歧視就像我跟陳培宇委員我們就在這個場域被韓國瑜院長說民進黨團一龍二鳳我們當事人尤其是女性我們聽起來是完全對於性別嚴重的歧視我們當然認為一個立法院的院長不應當有這種言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9962.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9976.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 個案我們打住不再討論但是法制面如果新的國會依舊是這樣子的不斷的去涉及歧視言論的氾濫我們是立法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9977.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9989.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以呢下一頁我們的反歧視法台灣到底要等多久我們要讓人權條約國內法化就像今天朝偉在排的這個速攤的專報 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9992.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10009.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們也簽署了聯合國的反蘇貪公約嘛所以我們把基於聯合國的反蘇貪的所有的作為我們也國內法化我們推動了陽光法案等等啊但是一樣啊國際也在倡議反歧視法或者是稱為平等法都要回應國際的人權公約但是台灣還要等多久呢 夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10016.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10024.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
也要落實聯合國SDGs 人人平等減少不平等的目標台灣還要等多久呢 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10025.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10050.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
反歧視的條款散列在各法現行的法律欠缺一致性總共散列在至少七個法律所以我最近是非常感同身受因為立法院作為國會一個應當有進步思維應當有非常的平等思維而且作為國人表率的國會殿堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10051.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10071.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
卻一再的發生這種歧視的言論而最近大罷免的浪潮這些被罷免的委員們不能因為你身處政治的壓力當中就口不擇言啊對於公民朋友行使他珍貴的憲法父權你卻用扶壽羅這種邊緣人這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10075.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10089.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
狗吃壞肚子拉出來的東西這種在嚴重的鄙視鄙疑公民耶我們是一票一票選出來的沒有公民支持我們我們今天怎麼會有這個條件我們會有這個珍貴的機會站在這裡問政呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10093.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10117.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以部長 夏業 曾經一度是內政部要研議反歧視法或平等法後來我知道是法務部開始接手了 是嗎這個反歧視法是行政性平處的一個法規好 所以現在完全也沒有內政部也沒有法務部因為最早 夏業 最早是法務部提出來的條文有67個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10119.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10131.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
所以後來是移給行政院的平等處嗎人權期轉型正義處所以防務部再也沒有參與了嗎我們會這部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10133.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10152.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
所以我們會去那邊開會那最近開會開的怎麼樣我講反歧視法講了一年了他那個在113年5月2日有辦理預告那另外在10月有預告超過這麼久的時間了他在10月有延伸會議那另外現在在重整各界的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10153.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10177.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那法務部您認為因為你們過去是involved最深的從2019你們委外研究而且過去的條文平等法67個條文是你們提出來的草擬的可不可能您預測一下我們可不可能下個會期反歧視法或是今年之內能夠有一個國家高度的版本我個人我一向沒有要畏快而快 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10178.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10201.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
我自己的版本其實準備很久但我一直還沒有送出來是因為我要等行政院的院版我希望這樣一個大家要有社會的共識畢竟言論的管控或言論在要用法律去限制它就像我們在同樣的司法法治委員會國家安全跟言論自由怎麼去把界限定清楚同樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10202.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10225.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
歧視的言論他某種程度也是在言論自由的這個範疇裡面但是你不能夠去傷及他人的情感不能夠去貶抑他人進行這種言語的暴力的霸凌所以我認為我同意要嚴謹同意要時間換取空間但是也已經等了一年半了他這個草案是有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10225.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10240.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
是有草案 他那個草案是有6章46條好 那我非常希望我們下個會期下個會期能夠看到行政院院版那您所知道院版未來這個法案應該是內政司法法制委員會主審吧應該是應該是我們跟內政聯席嗎應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10249.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10277.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
主管機關是誰因為他是行政院的那個那個人權組所以這就是一個問題啦好沒有關係我非常期待下個會期我們不能放任歧視性的言論一再的氾濫我們需要法治我們需要社會更多元的對話我也希望已經等了一年半了我們今年會有好的消息或是多努力一點我們明年能夠來完成立法好嗎大家一起加油謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10280.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10282.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
好 謝謝 那我們下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10303.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10319.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長官員 會長 公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生 謝謝昭偉的安排昭偉不用站了 因為我今天的題目主要是修五權憲法廢考間去問國共先 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10320.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10345.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
藍白貪獨圖利更勝於公器私用我不曉得這樣的質詢其實在場的每一位都是可以來參與質詢的對象尤其是要跟昭偉抱個歉我不會邀請官員上台我就直接對所有人講謝謝昭偉但是不要昭偉聽了有點不開心就把時間卡斷就好了那我們就直接看這一點排監委專報吳宗憲有讀過憲法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10348.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10376.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
有個限制 我們來看一看 憲法徵信條文第二項第一款行政院有向立法院提出施政方針及施政報告之者立法院在開會時有向行政院院長及行政院各部會首長質詢之權今天我看了有來自有要邀請監察院還有包括審計部的嘛有邀請到權序部 這是考試院的這些單位是所謂的行政院院長及行政院各部會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10377.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10392.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
好 我們來看一下 還是有一些條文可以問憲法第67條第二項各委員會得邀請政府人員及社會上有關係人員到會被尋那可能在場的這些不是行政院的官員們大概就是屬於政府人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10393.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10414.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
但是憲法第七次要寫立法院開會時,關係院的院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見他們有這樣的權利可以來列席陳述他們關係院,譬如像司法院、像監察院、像考試院的意見尤其是立法院在審議這些該院的法律案的時候,尤其是憲法訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10416.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10422.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那時候不曉得吳釗偉在安排的時候有沒有邀請司法院來表示意見啊好 可是呢 釋字第461說三院所屬一 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10425.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10450.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
非獨立行使職權的人在場有沒有獨立行使職權的人 沒有二 負行政職務者 對 在場是負行政職務者與其提出的三法律案或有關預算案的事項亦有上開憲法規定之適用簡單講 司法法治委員會作為立法院的一個受院會委託的委員會邀請其他三個憲法機關的時候只有符合這三個條件的時候才能邀請他們來 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10451.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10475.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
當然在場沒有考試委員沒有監察委員沒有大法官而且今天在場的人都負有行政職務但是請教召委現在我們有法律案跟預算案在審嗎沒有啊這三個月的人員不用來請看下一頁排幕僚人員專報國民黨不要雙標啊就在一個月前啊我們司法法治委員會才邀請本院的幕僚長周萬來秘書長來報告啊結果立法院說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10478.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10504.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
幕僚人員不是立委行使立法權的兼顧客體啊 看到沒有 幕僚人員周焕蘭秘書長 身為本院的秘書長 她是幕僚人員不需要列席結果呢 監察院組織法第九條 秘書長是什麼秘書長也是幕僚人員啊嗨 趙偉 幕僚人員不是不用列席嗎國民黨雙標喔周焕蘭秘書長可以不用來其他各院的秘書長就要來布蘭副秘書長也要來 像現在司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10505.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10532.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
沒有秘書長啊,要叫人家副秘書長來他尤其他不是政務人員耶,往下看好啦,我們現在看到了,有一位這個民眾黨的黨主席啊發生了這個案子之後呢,說要求當事人自首進退當事人請辭之後,又說人家是斷尾朝生啊真還是你,虎還是你啊,死還是你,跪還是你啊怎麼折騰是你有話講啦,我們來看一下這位大主席,我們現在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10534.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10540.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
他說怎麼樣 他說今天要廢除監察院啊 很好廢除監察院有沒有門檻 有 憲法政策條文第七條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10542.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10565.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
監察院作為國家最高監察機關就像立法院為國家最高立法機關監察院行使彈劾糾舉及審計權憲法修正案第十二條 憲法修改要立法委員四分之一之提議國民黨有沒有四分之一 有四分之三之出席 每次開會我們民進黨一定出席經出席委員四分之三之決議可以提出憲法修正案在我們第十屆2020年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10568.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10593.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
2022年就做過了 我們提出的憲法修正案還要經過公告半年後 由中華民國自由地區選舉人投票複決有效同意票過半數的選舉人不斷通過結果呢 我們在2022年要弄一個公民權的修憲公投結果來啦 國台辦在2022年就發布了馬小光說 所謂的修憲公投根本就是為了修憲謀獨的鋪路跟造勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10595.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10603.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
聽到他們的發言 國民兩黨 藍白兩黨 哇 發抖啊他們不同意我們可以這樣做嗎 你可以這樣做嗎 我們老要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10604.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10630.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
廢除監察院國民黨支持嗎?吳昭元你支持嗎?你是國民黨黨員嗎?有沒有讀過國民黨的黨章啊?國民黨黨章什麼?奉行三民主義五權憲法之宗旨幫你查出來了,不曉得回去看一看結果呢,國民黨的黨團總召傅坤吉說要廢監察院跟黃國昌的說法一樣,黃總召的說法一樣結果國民黨黨中央說什麼?五權分立是國民黨的長期主張啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10631.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10653.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
到底誰雙標 誰在精神分裂是傅坤祺代表國民黨 還是那個發言的黨主席代表國民黨到底國民黨跟黃國昌要不要主張五權分裂啊 往下看再說公器私用吧 哇 在場的公器私用我想 莫於國民黨跟民眾黨 我們來看一下傅坤祺 親信 戰天下得標 2177萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10656.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10683.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
民眾黨吳春成前委員 嘩 2200萬 貪吶 誰比較貪傅君祺佔國有地 蓋停車場 佔了800坪民眾黨黨主席黃國昌 佔國有地 佔了28坪大貪跟小貪林志廟涉貪一審判決 12年6個月高環判決 7年4個月 好像國民黨比較貪喔接下來還有傅君祺任內聯絡簿啦 金座啦 米袋啦 都落款 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10684.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10691.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我民眾黨柯文哲市長內大量採購柯語錄公器私用莫此為勝啊再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10694.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10705.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
講到公益適用這還是一個不特定的法律概念那我們來看一下瀆職罪是不是很明確刑法我不請教部長了貪污治罪條例瀆職跟貪污我們簡稱貪瀆法務部出版的圖利罪相關問題之研究他說圖利罪是屬於智慧狡詐行之犯罪他會注意到過程合理安排因此事證的痕跡他會去消除避免被發掘 收證很困難證據都多殘缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10723.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10740.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
所以為什麼我們有的立法委員很喜歡當檢調在立法院的質詢都喜歡個案問政然後就要指導檢調辦案可是對於貪瀆的辦案這麼興趣這麼高所謂的公器私用到底哪一個比較嚴重所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10741.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10762.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
我們往下看今天的結論吳檢作就算沒有熟讀憲法吳昭偉要向莊昭偉學習啊莊昭偉好歹排的幕僚長排的秘書長是立法院的周萬南秘書長到本委員會來就本院相關的事宜包括立法院牽涉事宜來做報告我們的吳昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10764.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10779.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
卻排了一個違反我們四字精神讓其他平行於立法院的其他縣政機關要求指派人員來到現場做跟法案預算無關的備詢請吳簡作回去憲法讀一讀請吳昭偉向莊昭偉好好的學習學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10786.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10810.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
好 謝謝鍾委員 因為你剛剛一直問我 我一直在想要不要回答你會想說怕說我回答就打斷你沒關係啦 你胡扯也不是第一次啦 就照你說的好 那下一位我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員沒有啦 因為你都說我沒手讀嘛 那沒關係嘛那我就認為你搞不清楚嘛 這互相齁好 陳佩瑜委員 那下一位我們請陳佩瑜委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10827.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10843.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好 謝謝主席 那有請審計部不過在審計部移動之前 要提醒主席我們在司法法治委員會的慣例就是主席都會評價委員嗎我是第一次見到不是 因為他剛剛問我問題嘛應該這麼說 他剛剛問我問題 他一直說請問對不對 那我本來想說我如果當場回答會打斷他的論述 所以我就不 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10850.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10851.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我保證不會請問主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10867.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10890.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我們來談一下關於主席今天排的議題那我們如果從主席排的議題相關延伸我們來看一下我今天想要跟您請教的問題就是關於賭職罪這個事情那這個事情呢跟我們過去一直在我們辦公室過去一直在關心跟體育界的案例有關係那我快速跟您討論第一個就是關於今年在今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10890.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10915.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
女足跟足協之間有一些問題我不知道你有沒有關注到這個新聞不過總之呢簡單的說這個事情就是體育署每年都有排將近大概三千萬的預算提供給女足做集訓計畫那這個三千萬並不會真的實質落到每一個球員手上它中間必須要透過足協好我想這個過程您是清楚的那今年就發生了一個爭議就是相關的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10919.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10928.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
足協去跟體育署請領了相關的經費例如說每一個球員要有四雙襪子啦然後四套球衣啊點點點點點點這個是足協他跟體育署申請的這個款項可是呢實際上落到球員手上例如說四雙襪子四套球衣可能他們都只拿到兩雙兩套我只是舉例啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10939.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10964.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那我們呢 當然就後續往下追蹤我們想要知道這中間到底發生了什麼事情那明明有這麼多的錢而且他們也做了這個申請體育署也給了這個補助可是為什麼球員手上沒有拿到這麼多相關設備那我們就去調了相關資料在國訓中心在5月27回覆給我們辦公室他們的說法是說足協確實有拿了這些錢可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10965.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10979.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
購買品項啦協會帶領裝備聲明書啦或者是總教練簽署協會內部申請單這些單據在協會跟體育署之間的往來看起來是很正常的可是可是到底足協後續如何去發放 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10980.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10998.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
然後實際上球員每一個人拿到多少這中間其實沒有追蹤也沒有落相關的文件所以球員才會來跟我們陳情那事實上我會請您上來你聽到這邊應該知道發生了什麼事情對不對好 相關行政法人確實也是審計部你們的公務集合單位 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10999.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11006.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
行政法人是也是我們的廣義的審計對象廣義沒錯我們等一下來看下一張圖我覺得我幫您圈出來這是第一個第二個我們來看剛剛是一個大的組織的案例那這個是最近發生的案例吳東霖選手 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11015.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11025.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他自己自費掏腰包出國參加比賽可是這些款項其實體育署都有相關補助可是因為協會的關係中間可能是申請的問題時間點的問題導致選手這兩年來都要自 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11030.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11057.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
自付款項自電款項甚至要燒錢還要跟親朋好友借錢我剛剛下面說了一直到這個事情鬧上了新聞選手自己發文鬧上了新聞之後體育署才同意分批核銷說下週就可以撥付可是這個問題一樣跟剛剛那個主席的問題一樣我要說其實這只是我舉了其中兩個案例想要跟您討論來看下一張就是我剛剛跟您討論的在審計部的角度你們最核心是公務機關沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11058.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11082.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
可是往外層其實這些是廣義的廣義的審計對象所以我剛說行政法人所以就廣義上來說我確實可以跟您討論這件事情對不對可以那我要討論的是我剛剛講的這些事情如果是你們廣義可以去審計的對象我要拜託審計部在後續的事情上來我的要求非常簡單第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11082.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11100.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
有沒有機會針對近期不斷傳出經費之用啊裝備問題的這些單項協會跟國訓中心要拜託省紀部進一步進行查查避免不管是體育署的問題還是協會的問題還是國訓中心的問題導致最後受害其實都是第一層的基層運動選手 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11102.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11131.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
這是第一個問題第二個你等一下再跟我說有沒有機會這樣做第二個是介於體育署對於所監督的行政法人還有他們補助的體育團體的經費屢次傳出問題其實這一年多來我們已經不斷的協助非常非常多選手這邊我也想要拜託審計部進行通盤的糾正跟評估好這是跟著體育署的部分另外一個是針對我剛剛說的協會的部分國訓中心的部分我想要拜託一下副審計長這邊可不可以跟我們回應到底後續你們可以怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11132.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11156.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
好 跟委員垂詢的部分大概針對體育署跟各體育專項協會另外包括也跟特定的行政法人有關委員垂詢的這兩個部分我想我們一定會徹底來處理徹底處理另外就是委員下面有列一個就是說時間上希望一個月因為跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11157.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11186.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們到七月底前 審計部其實所有人員都主要人力都集中在審核總決算因為憲法有規定我們一定在今年七月底要提出總決算審核報告所以是不是時間上能容許我們延長到三個月讓我們整個做完整的一個調查跟評估那一方面我們也跟委員辦公室這邊看委員辦公室手邊掌握的資料讓我們整個調查的進程能夠加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11187.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11208.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好 我覺得您剛剛提出了一個很重要的討論方向一個是時間拉長第二個是我們辦公室積極跟你們討論好不好 我們把我們手上從去年到今年 我們累積了很多案例我們看到的問題 更全面性的跟你們討論好不好 因為今天時間有限是是好 那就時間改三個月 沒有問題那辦公室後續會積極跟審計部這邊約開會是好 謝謝好 接下來下一個我要請任總那審計部這邊請回 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11223.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11224.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
好 謝謝袁總這邊今天來的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11228.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11252.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
專委 我就快速跟您討論我們看到行政院有喊出說要縱使AI人才培育以AI人才加速智慧政府推動AI創新應用我認為大方向絕對是好的可是落到第一線的公務機關我其實有一點擔心我相信我的擔心起來有字您自己怎麼看第一個你們要針對高階人才你們要在7月到10月辦理市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11253.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11274.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
高階人才而且指的是部會首長副首長三級機關首長還有三級機關的副首長還有二級機關的司處長假設這些人的平均年齡我沒有年齡歧視可是我要提的是我不知道在座現場所有人手上的手機有多少人真的有裝AI相關工具已經在手機裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11275.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11297.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
如果我們用現場 大家手機裡面裝AI應用程式不管是畫圖 不管是做簡報 不管是回答對話我不知道有多少人意識到AI跟日常生活需求的結合更何況你現在要進入到公務機關裡頭我要拜託 我要幫公務機關的基層公務員也好或者是所謂高階主管也好 要事先提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11298.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11325.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我認為AI的應用當然是這個時代的需求但是相關的落實的配套會不會到最後又落入基層公務員最大的壓力因為長官上了課長官認為這個很棒這個有需求於是他就回過頭要我們的基層公務員去做這些事情我們來看一個案例你有看過這個新聞嗎年輕的公務員靠的JET GPT免費照片APP揪出1.5億政府採購案造假你有看到這個新聞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11327.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11328.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這是真的新聞 這不是我用AI做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11331.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11356.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
妳沒有看過?抱歉妳了解?妳有看到這個新聞?沒有沒有?好這個新聞就是在說有一個地方的基層公務員他真的是用HHPT跟很多數位工具幫忙揪出很多採購案的弊病然後於是呢這個事情就上了新聞在這個畫面的中間這位女性應該是基層的公務員相關承辦或者是科員在這個女性我投影片的右手邊頭髮比較白的這位我猜想可能是相關主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11357.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11385.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
左邊可能也是相關主管於是就做成這個漂亮的新聞畫面他說的是新北市審計處基層的稽查員吳新梅還有新北市審計處處長好這個圖片是這樣子的意思就是說當這個基層的公務員他意識到AI工具可以協助他他於是自己也就進行了操作進行了學習確實也幫助了他的工作而當他向他的長官回報的時候他長官覺得哇這個超棒他可能就變成了一個政府的業績看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11386.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11407.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
可是我很怕這個事情再加上前面你們說的你們希望公務人員都有AI素養的情況下有AI能力的情況下他會不會最後變成了只是為了追求AI的KPI但導致更多基層公務員其實壓力山大我認為是有這可能的 對嗎相關的悲劇 下一張相關的悲劇我們就不再贅述 您很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11409.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11438.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
對嗎?勞動部的個案我們就不再贅述我的意思是說新時代新科技的應用當然重要我們實質是希望真的可以幫助基層的公務人員行政減量也好業務減量也好不要這麼龐大的業務壓力但我真的擔心所以我只是提出友善的提醒在我們希望進行AI改造政府之前AI創新政府之前真的要先幫基層公務人員想好 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11438.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11466.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因為我看到要動用到部會首長都要去上課包含今天所有在座部會首長都要去上課他們上完課之後難道我要要求部長自己親自去操作AI嗎不可能嘛那可是當部長或者是所有部會首長有這個意識之後他如何落到第一線公務人員的實踐這件事情我認為我們預早做出準備好嗎不管是相關的配套相關的政策或者是相關要求KPI的時候也必須要合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11468.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11492.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個合理的界線怎麼劃分這個合理的想像大家有沒有共識不要到最後又落了變成是基層公務人員的辛苦可以嗎我當然希望在悲劇沒有發生之前我們共同往這個方向一起來努力所以我的要求是第一個針對AI應用在公務行政我要拜託人總在中高階主管的訓練過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11494.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11519.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
重點提示用開放的態度支持基層的創意可是拜託不要把AI變成KPI當AI變成KPI會是一個很大的悲劇好嗎好第二個AI應用對於中高階公務人員來說其實不是他們的生命經驗啦我剛剛就已經請大家拿起手機有多少人手上有AI工具在手機裡面而且用得得心應手每天都可以用什麼問題都可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11520.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11543.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
我猜大部分人可能只有check GPT可是如果你去問數位原生世代的年輕人也好數位時代的年輕幕僚也好他們手上的工具絕對遠遠超乎這些所謂高階主管的想像而中高階主管如果因為在相關課程當中有了錯誤的想像最後變成了錯誤的壓力給基層的公務人員非常非常可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11544.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11556.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
所以我也想要請問任總,我剛剛自己講了這麼多,我提出一個需求,請你回應我,有沒有可能,有沒有機會同步評估,納入外界資訊專業意見來協助體檢盤點,目前公務行政機關運用AI創新的可能性? |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11563.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11577.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
謝謝委員的寶貴意見委員的意見我都會帶回去研議好 帶回去研議一個月內會不會太快因為我看你們馬上要叫公務人員去上課對不對你們說7月到10月就要上課了 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11579.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11598.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
可是在上這個課程規劃之前如果你沒有對末端應用有一些想像那你最規劃的課程就會是空中樓格它接不到現場第一線公務人員的需求委員的意見我們都會一併帶回去研議可是我這邊說一個月內給我們研議報告真的可以嗎如果可以的話可以三個月嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11601.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11616.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
三個月那我先問一下主席再給我一下下時間再問一下你們七月到十月就要進行對部長等級的人上課你們安排好課程內容了嗎那個應該是去年的部分吧剛委員那個簡報題今年的最近的新聞是最近的新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11618.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11638.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
是你們說7月到10月就要針對他們來上課這部分是不是我會後再提供相關的資訊給委員這邊了解不然我們會後再討論那如果你這個一個月內要改三個月我可以接受但是我們可不可以後續進行更多的討論因為真的不希望再發生相關悲劇而且我也要說真的很多部會首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11639.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11653.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
到最後如果現場的悲劇要他們扛可能對他們也不是太公平因為我認為有高階主管跟第一線工作人員認知上的落差好嗎好謝謝主席謝謝那我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間持續進行到所有發言登記發言委員請大家結束為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11663.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11676.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我現在不是說回答誰的詢問我剛剛可能要說明一下主席本來就不會去評論每個委員的發言但是如果委員有問題問主席的話主席是會回答因為剛剛鍾嘉賓委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11678.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11700.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
他有多次說請問主席請問吳宗憲這樣所以我剛剛才會做這樣的回答那另外就是說什麼剛剛說他胡扯不第一次我想說中央兵委員說謊被踢爆好幾次所以這個是我的論述依據那再來就是說在109年3月25日中央兵委員他自己曾經到法治委員會參加會議當次也是就這個也是進行詢問那監察院秘書長又來 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11704.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11726.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以那他在當次他怎麼不說這個是違憲或什麼所以我想一切都有這個資料可查詢是立法院第十屆第一次會期在109年3月25日當次的會議那宗家兵委員也有出席好那我想我們還是一樣一切依據法律以及依據事實來說明好那下一位我們請王宏威委員發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11736.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11755.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好 謝謝主席我覺得我們今天我們司法法制委員會已經好幾次那麼該來的都不來那今天呢秘書長雖然在昨天晚上突然請辭可是問題是監察院完全沒有派任何代表來第一個藐視立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11756.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11785.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
第二個 難道監察院現在整個監察院是已經羞於見人了嗎齊平的秘書長突然請辭也可以派代理人來到立法院來做報告難道監察院對於我們今天的專案報告就是如何建立一個清廉政府如何去防範貪腐他們覺得不重要嗎所以我覺得我們還是要允許一個嚴厲的譴責好 謝謝主席那我想我請那個法務部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11786.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11787.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
麻煩保護部長好 部長好委員好這次監察院發生了連續從秘書長開始到好幾位的監察委員都有濫用公務車的情形那引起軒然大波但是事實上公務人員濫用公務車也不是從現在開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11814.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11840.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
今天早上除了已經請辭的秘書長李俊逸之外還有蘇麗瓊監委是要去看牙醫然後另外一位監委林玉榮去載親友去接送機場今天早上又爆發另外一位的王榮章監委他一樣的去用公務車去理頭髮 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11841.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11857.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所以今天監察院早上召開記者會 除了來說明為什麼李俊逸秘書長準辭之外也把三位監察委員要移送紀律委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11858.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11884.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那這樣的一個發展其實是因為最近輿論大滑本來監察院第一時間竟然說這是涉及事件所以監察委員他們也不曉得該怎麼樣去處理這真的是很離譜因為他們都忘記他們自己有一個紀律委員會還要煩勞外界去提醒他們監察院你們自己有紀律委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11885.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11901.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以呢他今天呢移送三位監委去他的紀律委員會那另外一方面呢我們常常講說監察院敢不敢打老虎還是呢只是敢打蚊子而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11902.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11928.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那麼監察院過去其實也有就是監察委員就彈劾監察委員好在這邊特別要提的就是這些涉案的監委並不是只有去紀律委員會而已他們還有幾個選擇第一個選擇就是他要不要比照呂敬義秘書長要請辭下台以事負責負起政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11928.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11948.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
另外一個就是監委可以去彈劾監委 這個是過去曾經發生過的在美國86年的時候 其實監察院通過彈劾監察委員叫做蔡慶柱他的一個收賄貪污案 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11949.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11969.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以這件事情不是說今天像擠牙膏的方式那麼外界質疑到哪裡你就去辦到哪裡現在才做請辭做斷尾求生現在才去移送紀律委員會其實還有其他的監察院敢不敢彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11970.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11981.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好 但是我在這邊為什麼要請部長上台部長一定站了半天覺得說這干我什麼事所以我要請教的是其實過去我剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11983.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12001.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
用濫用公務車並不是從現在開始過去也有很多的案例這個在之前今天我看有些委員提到的包含前台南市的民族事務委員會的主委前漁民縣的消防局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12003.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12024.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
屏東三地門的鄉長 還有前屏東訪寮鄉長都曾經因為 但是他們的情節還有其他的 但是他們濫用公務車就是公務車公器私用的部分 也是造成他貪污犯罪的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12025.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12040.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那麼過去都有 都有處理 甚至呢其實有很多還有起訴的 當然也有被彈劾的也有被判刑的 當然有些是緩起訴好 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12042.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12064.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
過去很多公務人員有的有辦有的沒有辦 待會我也要提到有些根本完全都沒有辦然後裝死就過去了那我要請教的部長是一個國家終究不能夠一國兩制或一國多制 對不對所以如果像公務人員像這次監察院從秘書長開始到監委 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12067.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12091.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那麼我剛才也提出對照過去也有因為你私用公務車認為你侵占了公有財物而被來被調查被起訴的這些案例那請問一下部長對於公務人員濫用公務車到底檢調辦不辦辦的標準是不是應該一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12095.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12110.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
謝謝委員我想這一件北檢有因為民眾的告發檢舉有立案來偵辦那這部分只要我們刑訴訴訟法只要有告訴告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12112.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12125.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這部分我們就會只有犯罪嫌疑我們就會來立案來做一個告發有沒有時間限制沒有時間限制那個追溯嫌疑部分那個告發都沒有時間限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12126.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12153.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那如果這樣的話那我就也直接跟部長來告發另外三個例子更高高官來2023年的時候年初我們的國家運輸安全調查委員會的主委楊洪志他在上班期間搭乘公務車到宜蘭去訪友泡溫泉吃美食有的時候的太太也跟著一起去 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12154.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12179.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那這個事情呢後來呢也不了了之就是運安會的主委楊洪志好再來2024年7月10號我們駐WTO代表羅昌發他呢被爆料被長期佔用Volvo的公務車當私家車甚至拿公帑來報銷個人的用品 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12182.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12202.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
再來我們的駐美代表余大雷他也被爆料說用公務車在駐外的待遇被爆料後來他自己承認曾經搭公務車和家人一起去賞櫻花 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12205.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12225.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這些案例其實跟監察院的案例其實都有類似都有類似這個過去呢其實也都有報導但是後來不了了之所以我在這邊呢剛才講說沒有告發的期限所以我就當這邊就直接跟我們部長來告發這三個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12228.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12234.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
希望呢 我們法務部也能夠去做調查因為它的行政調查呢 就隨著 反正就不了了之下我們這個駐美代表 就沒事了所以如果行政調查不做 那麼我請法務部能夠來做調查它應該呢 是應該要一致的好 謝謝部長 部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12252.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12257.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
另外我請一下我們的審計今天審計部是副審計長 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12264.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12268.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
委員好副審議長其實我常常都覺得我到立法院之後我覺得各部會我一直覺得審計部算是比較還有在在好好在做事情的啦有時候看你們的審計部的報告只是後來呢因為被揭發出來的很多的弊端那麼你們也越來越有些保守我今天很仔細看你們的報告的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12294.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12312.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我要特別講就是說在你們報告內容其實是非常恐怖的事情為什麼呢在你們的報告內容你們特別提到你們也是用大數據來分析分析我們很多的這些主要都是一些政府的採購案 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12314.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12333.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
你們在這些的這個案件裡面2900家竟然有800家比例將近三成喔是政府機關根本沒有依採購法去追繳押標金該追繳而未追繳 你同意還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12335.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12348.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
500家 比例17.2然後 對這些不拔廠商該停權 不去停權 對不對有吧 這個情形嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12350.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12359.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
請問一下我們整個透過這個數據分析的技術大概篩選出來的情況很嚴重很嚴重是好所以我在這邊講孰令制之啊如果我們今天要講的是建立一個青年政治避免貪腐為什麼在我們審計部他用大數據去看這個還不是去抓幣喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12376.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12392.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個是你政府機關就應該依照政府採購法你應該去追繳你不去追繳這不是圖利什麼叫做圖利這不是貪污什麼叫做貪污還有你該去給他停權而不去給他停權就是因為這樣子長此以往 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12396.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12420.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
其實最近 所以我剛才對監察院多所批評監察院這個月份 五月吧 對不起 五月有一個糾正案 但是我覺得糾正都太輕了這個我曾經也有踢爆過就是呢 我們警察人員 警消的防彈背心的弊端嘛對不對 你們去糾正這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12422.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12436.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這個案子多麼的離譜離譜到這個廠商一而再再而三的飆到一而再再而三的驗收不過我們竟然一而再再而三的繼續繼續讓他能夠得標沒有弊端嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12444.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12467.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
沒有問題嗎 只要被糾正嗎我甚至曾經提過這家廠商叫光顏企業多麼離譜它驗收不過 然後被列入拒絕往來名單拒絕往來名單它有時效性一解除它拒絕往來名單 立刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12469.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12487.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
再讓他能夠得標他這麼神通欸這麼神通欸只要拒絕往來名單一被解除就立刻得標然後出來就是這種有瑕疵品的把我們警消人員把我們警察人員的命不當病欸我們的政府已經爛到這種地步了欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12494.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12517.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
這種人命關天 草菅人命的事情而且是警察基層第一線的人員最後警察還要自己去買防彈背心他們都自己知道就是政府發給他們的防彈背心他們不敢用最後自己去買防彈背心我知道你們五月份去糾正了這個案子包含警政署吧 海巡署吧還有台營可是糾正夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12521.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12533.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以我在這邊其實我肯定因為審計部可能是根據這些數據一個一個的去追但是像這個我剛才講的案例獨獨只是糾正絕對不夠啊所以在這邊副審計長也承認問題很嚴重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12542.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12562.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以雖然法務部長在下面我剛才就請你先回座我是覺得我們今天房攤什麼清廉說假的啦連這些政府的標案都公然這麼多的比例政府採購法在那邊是瘦尬是不是是在那邊只是當作是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12567.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12594.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
只是在裝飾品所以我在這邊期許我們審計部還是本於你們的過去至少我這兩年我看審計部的報告我都會看到一些東西我覺得你們有在抓我們現在政府的弊端不是這種粉飾太平要繼續抓但是我們所有相關的這些政府相關的這些政府的採購真的不能這麼爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12597.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12624.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
你看我剛才講將近三成欸該追繳押標金他都不去追繳請問一下為什麼不追繳他是忙嗎是忙還是在包庇所以在這邊也請我還是請我們的審計部審計部你過去有包含什麼就業安地基金但是很惡劣啦就業安地基金他讓他要補回七千多萬他還要拿公務預算對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12625.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12634.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
是不是 就是那個勞動部你們去追那個就業安靜基金他濫用的地方嗎目前還沒有確定那個預算來源 還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12635.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12663.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
目前還沒有 還沒有跟你們 還沒有告訴你們預算來源這一種還要納稅人去編預算給他喔真的很沒有良心啦好 這個我還是希望審計部能夠未來還是確確實實的幫人民的納稅人來把關是 謝謝委員剛剛委員追尋那個防彈衣跟抗彈材料那個採購案其實我們有另外移送給台北地檢目前在整辦中 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12664.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12668.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
對應該這個案子一定要移送啦是是真的太草菅人命好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12692.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12705.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
首先先有請人總的江專偉然後等一下還有馮署長待會在馮署長我先請教這個江專偉我想請教一下今天人事長則沒有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12719.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12744.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
不知道人事长没有来然后副人事长也没来我们今天刚好副人事长刚好是人事交接副人事长交接那总之就是说我希望以后这个司法法律委员会议至少还是有副首长以上的层级来出席这样的话我们在质询的时候这个直接首长跟副首长 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12745.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12764.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
聽到他回去就可以交辦那麼當然今天專委來我這裡還是要跟你們大概要先講講幾件事情首先呢其實本身要強調我每一次我都有專心看每一個部會所提供的專案報告那麼因為我覺得從這些閱讀專案報告裡面呢基本上可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12765.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12778.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
獲得很多的資訊同時有時候也可以看得到裡面出的一些問題但是本席今天對任總所提出的報告非常非常不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12782.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12802.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
不知道專委你有看到你今天的報告嗎有是專委你寫的嗎是我們是經問人事總長是經問人事長核定的嗎我們有簽准有簽准是一頁就這一頁我幫你算了字裡面212個字扣除掉這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12809.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12829.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
對本委員會裡面所講的說今天要報告什麼內容等等你們真正跟今天的主題有關就只有一句話是哪一句話呢有關廉政的落實及獨持之防制本總處尊重法治主管機關法務部之規劃並配合辦理總共就這38個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12834.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12839.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
粉絲在這裡是要批評人種不能這麼草率有關於防癱素癱的宣導還有相關的教育訓練難道人種不該做嗎你們過去都沒有做嗎是跟委員補充說明一下其實剛剛在前面委員質詢的時候我們人種有救就是因為我們已經在我之前有說明過我們從106年起就將這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12862.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12875.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
公園的廉政與服務倫理課程納入公園每年應該完成的學習時數然後也有跟之前跟莊委員莊委員那時候有承續到這一塊那我有做說明就是我們113年開課的機關數已經達到515 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12881.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12887.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
好的那就謝謝莊專委可以知道說歧視人總是有做事嘛並不是沒有做事那你們為什麼在報告裡面寫得這麼草率你們應該要把你們過去做的這些開課或在文官學院裡面你們上了一些什麼內容也可以整理出來我認為說你們這樣的做法基本上就是敷衍了事藐視我們司法法治委員會麻煩請你回去轉告任市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12909.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12920.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我認為你們這次的報告是不及格的那我也要求你們一個禮拜之內重新提報一份這個完整的專案報告那是不是可以麻煩召委這裡可以同意那麻煩依照範例 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12924.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12931.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好 謝謝 我們會把我們辦理的有關廉政與服務倫理的相關的訓練的辦理情形納入我們的書面報告再補充 謝謝好 那就麻煩一個禮拜之內要交好那麼我在這邊其實很感慨的就是其實人種在這段時間裡面配合陸委會 清查公教人員有沒有大陸居住證或是相關證件的等等的事情辦得可真快 辦得可真勤快應該這麼說 很勤快 一波接一波的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12954.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12981.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
然後來清查這個公教人員有沒有大陸的政見但是呢這樣子的一個清查方式到底對於確認公務員對國家的忠誠度有沒有幫助還有就是實際上對於這個清查共諜有沒有實質上的幫助我這裡是大打問號啦不過既然你們做了也就做了但是不要忘記什麼才是你們人種該做的不要捨本逐末那麼對於像是防灘速灘的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12984.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13013.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這個宣導啊 教育訓練等等都應該要加強對 而不是都是配合這個陸委會進搞一些意識形態的事情好 那也請你回去要轉告任市長是那接下來我還再問一下就是就是今年公務人員3%的這個調薪行政院說5月就可以發放可是我們最近看到新聞報導還有在網路社群平台上面還是有一些公務員有反應說沒有收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13014.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13021.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
3%的調薪請問任總有沒有去了解是不是現在每個單位都已經有實際上發放這個加薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13023.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13052.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
其實就人種部分其實條性的部分已經都已經都播那至於其他機關的部分這部分因為不是我主管的業務處的那個主管業務這部分我會回去瞭解謝謝好那麻煩你們也是一個禮拜之內把目前整個核發的狀況到底哪些機關還沒有完成也請你要提供一份資料給本席不要忘記這是涉及到公務人員的薪水 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13053.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13073.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
政府沒有按時發這就是一流苛扣了這也是違反這個可能都觸犯刑法的129條的罪那麼我上次就已經講了就是公務員很倒楣軍公教人員很倒楣就是因為我們的雇主是政府所以薪水慢發遲發加薪的該發的不發好像都沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13075.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13088.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
人種這方面要盯緊一點不要慢吞吞的那希望這個專委回去可以報告人事長這些事情都要積極的去處理好的那謝謝專委那接下來我想請署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13095.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13111.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好那麼在這裡請教署長就是因為我們知道就是最近的也是發生了監察院濫用公務車的這個諸多的事件那麼引起大家對於公務車使用標準還有它的界限諸多的討論那麼其實本市有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13113.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13136.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
廉政署事實上是之前有曾經做過廉政執行手冊那在這個廉政執行手冊裡面列舉了很多有關於不當使用或是私用公務車的一些案例那麼我想請教廉政署就是據你們自己的統計到底有近年來有多少的不當使用公務車的案例是被移送法辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13138.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13156.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
數字的部分可能我會後再跟委員這邊做因為我今天看到你們的廉政署的報告裡面也沒有寫這方面那麻煩請你們要提供我們大概有幾百件嗎還是沒有那麼多沒有去做統計因為廉政署的針對自己的部分在這個公務車的這一塊它是屬於說比較偏向 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13157.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13170.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
背信罪跟侵佔罪那我們本來比較我們負責的是貪污罪條例的工作所以有很多的這個可能有一些這個公車試用的部分會是別的機關在辦的所以我們沒有這個數據所以我們會後會去做了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13171.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13188.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
好 我看到你們自己上面的這個案例說明了包含說可能涉及到公務員登載不實啦還有這個背信啊甚至可能是不是涉及到什麼詐欺啦等等你們自己的案例上面都有我建議就是連政組這方面也要多去宣導是 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13190.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13194.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
因為你們自己的手冊都有嘛但是看起來可能很多公務員或是說是高階長官並不知道有這樣的狀況所以你們這個廉政指引不能只對基層的公務員做對於政務官也要大力的宣傳好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13206.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13223.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
對 那麼至於就是說是接下來我們也曉得就是現在監察院竟然發生這個事情那麼請問就是廉政署這裡有了解監察院的政風室主任就是監察院的政風室有沒有在啟動調查這些案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13224.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13249.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
事件發生以後我們有跟我們的監察院的政風司這邊去做聯繫那廉政已經有要求說政風主任這邊也要跟他們因為他們現在目前啟動了這個就是自律等於算是自律規範以後他們有啟動一個紀律委員會那針對這個紀律委員會針對這幾位委員的這件事情他們已經有開始做調查那也會如果有任何的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13250.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13257.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
這是行政或者不法都會去處理那我們的有要求我們的政風在這件事情上務必是要配合檢方跟紀律委員會這邊來做協助調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13259.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13283.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好 那麼至於秘書長呢 因為秘書長的這個問題可能不是在監察委員的進去委員會裡面 那秘書長的案子要怎麼處理在秘書長的部分 他的案件也是在北檢中啦然後至於說相關上面來講 我們這邊也是會看北檢的偵查的狀況有需要我們政風這邊提供資料 我們都會全力配合不是 因為你政風也應該積極主動的要去處理嘛 然後提供一些相關的事證再提供給 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13286.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13308.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
給地檢署對不對這不是講說是怎麼好像看起來你們變成是客我們也有一開始我們也有要求政風去做這樣相關的去了解只要有任何的一些部分的話我們也會提供給檢方這邊來做你們什麼時候可以提出你們政風室的報告針對監察院秘書長和監察委員有涉嫌有公器私用濫用公務車的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13309.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13332.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
基本上監察院的行政報告的這個行政調查的他的這個發起權是由機關首長這邊來做我們只能做指導我們有請他們就是說在政風這一塊上就是說如果有不法因為跟委員報告其實廉政署的政風他如果察覺有不法他分一般不法跟有關於貪瀆的案件在貪瀆案件他會離給廉政署在一般不法他就直接離給地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13333.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13339.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
所以在這個部分上北檢已經在偵辦了所以他只要有什麼資料他可以提供給北檢這邊來處理就可以了所以你剛才意思講說必須是由監察院的副院長他要主動的可以同意把這個陣風的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13350.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13368.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
不論說他們機關有沒有在做行政調查啦但是我覺得政風的部分在法尊這一塊就是要做好嘛就是不管副院長因為現在監察院的院長請假就是由李鴻鈞副院長所以李鴻鈞副院長基本上他是有這個義務他要去啟動調查嘛那政風也要 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13369.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13398.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
其實副院長已經有在這個紀律委員會中去做這件事情了我相信他們監察院會有內部的一個作為但是我要講的就是紀律委員會他是當然這個依照監察委員的自律規範裡面他是有一定的程序要送紀律委員會那接下來他如果說查到有相關違法的情勢的話就依法彈劾或者是要依法送審辦那我只是想說在這個事情裡面你們鄭豐市的角色是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13399.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13417.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
就是監察院的政風室我們政風室一樣也會依照我們班的這個廉政工作手冊在法尊的這一塊上去注意如果有任何違法的部分的話他一樣也是會照我剛剛講的就是說移給檢方或移給廉政署這邊處理所以我們放心我們在這個部分上也有已經有叮嚀那個政風的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13417.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13428.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我現在只是想說了解就是說你們的報告是不是之後可以提供給這個立法院或者說以後也可以要再做一個專案報告專門針對像這種公務車濫用的情況你們證封連證書這裡可以或是你們就是整個通盤的寫一個有關於近五年吧然後這個機關濫用公務車的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13438.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13464.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我們會再去盤點然後針對於公車私用這一部分的一個防灘指引我們會再做一個新的一個這個研議然後這邊也會提供給這個委員好那就麻煩有關於這個盤點的部分可以請你們大概一個月針對提供給我們我們進數好嗎就說我不曉得因為量太量量有多少所以我們保證進數跟委員這邊做說明好的好那謝謝署長那最後我還要再請教審計部的副審計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13470.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13484.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
李副審計長您好我在這裡很快就是兩個問題第一個就是說因為監察委員和秘書長都說這些公務車的郵費是他們自己出的那請問這筆費用真的是他們自己出的嗎還是說他們只是先帶電然後之後監察院還是會幫他們出這筆錢因為審計是事後審計當然我們監察院有這樣的說明我們也會去了解做實際核銷情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13496.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13520.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
在過去有曾經有監察委員有自掏腰包先帶電郵錢的嗎我所了解的是因為114年度比較特殊啦過去應該不用這樣好 OK 那麼我希望就是說這個部分可能真的之後審計單位要了解還有請問你們在這個預算執行當中你們審計單位是不會就開始去介入應該是說去了解他們的合照的狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13522.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13542.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
因為我們都是事後審計那監察院一樣跟各機關都一樣他每個月的四個月的15號以前一定要把會計報告跟核銷的相關資訊檔案都要傳過來他跟各機關都一樣每個月每個月每個月叫核銷比如說1月份的會計報告跟財務報告他必須在2月15號前他要送到審計部來那我們都會加以審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13550.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13575.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那所以代表說省紀部現在應該也有監察院那些報告因為現在都已經五月了至少大概有三月嘛三四月的是一定有那這部分的話可能去了解一下因為據他們的說法這都是他們自己掏腰包的自己出的出油錢那實際上的狀況是怎麼樣可能還要再了解那另外我還要再請教另外一個問題就是行政院因為他已經申請了一百一十四年總預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13576.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13586.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那麼因為這個大法官審查的結果如何我們還不知道但是有一種狀況萬一他把總預算案退回給立法院立法院要重審 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13588.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13608.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那麼勢必會有一些預算的經費額度可能會不一樣那審計部有沒有想到就是如果說退回立法院重審然後法定預算的金額有所變更那麼已經支出的經費審計部要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13612.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13628.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
跟委員報告我們都是根據大院審議通過的法定預算然後各機關他會每個月分配預算根據那個數額來處理那假設有很特殊情況我想行政院他會做一個全體的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13631.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13653.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
行政院會做權益的處理我們都是根據通過的法定預算來做實際的審核機關他每個月他一定要分配預算對我現在講法就是說因為現在當然我們的預算你通過是法定預算但是因為他已經申請釋憲了所以其實某種概念上他的預算可能還屬於一個法定預算屬於一個不確定的一個狀態那萬一這個預算退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13657.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13671.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
給立法院重審不管是全部或是部分重審那麼勢必可能會造成法定預算的這個項目會有所變更而且可能他的這個釋憲的期間或許都已經過了114年對 那審計部就這部分有去思考過相關的法律的問題要怎麼解決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13679.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13708.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
跟委員報告我們就是根據行政會移過來的總預算他通過的法定預算數額是多少我們就照這樣來處理那剛剛委員提醒的那些不確定狀況其實我們也不清楚什麼時候會有一個確定的時間但是政府的運作是每天都在運作一打開就要做政府簽的契約工程的推動一些法律義務的支出他每天都要處理所以可能還是要照原來通過的預算來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13710.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13720.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
對 所以之後有變更 如果說萬一錢重省了之後預算重省之後變少了但是呢 前一波的這個預算的編的經費是多的所以多花了 那之後這個錢要追回來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13722.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13748.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個部分這個預算的調整調波這個權限應該是在行政院我們只是根據通過的法定就大院通過的法定預算我們來監督預算的執行情形好所以簡單來說是說如果說行政機關現在把錢全部都花了那但是之後的萬一通過的法定預算再再一次審查法定預算數額是減少的所以呢追出去的錢要怎麼樣追回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13749.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13754.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
怎麼討回來 我覺得這是一個問題那我也希望就審計部是不是可以就是幫我們這個大家研擬一份報告 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13761.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13766.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
就想一想就是對因為這是很實際的問題是不是可以麻煩一個禮拜之內可以提供給一個這樣報告因為這是過去從來沒有過的事情我要講對於總預算申請釋憲案這是過去從來沒有發生過的事情但是現在因為行政院還有立法院的這個柯建民民進黨黨團他們申請釋憲以至於讓整個的總預算案會處在一個坦白說是一個效率不定的一個狀態所以呢之後如果說有任何的 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13790.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13817.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
預算變動的狀況多憋了當然就沒有問題但是如果說之後三的比原來的還要多的時候已經花出去的錢要怎麼樣收回這部分的話審計部是不是可以給我一份報告跟委員報告就是這個部分其實跟審計的職長比較沒有關係啦但是我們可以把我們蒐集的資料就是我們初步研究的提供給委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13819.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13834.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
但是這個資料不代表我們因為那個是主要在行政院他要掌控整個總預算的籌編還有執行控制這是他的職責那我們只是在後面做監督但是那些分析資料我們也可以整理一下提供給委員參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13835.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13862.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好的那就拜託這個李副審計長我現在大概已經不相信行政院我寧可比較相信審計部提的報告題的這個分析報告實際上是不是委員容許我們給我們兩個禮拜可以可以沒有問題那就兩個禮拜那就麻煩召委這邊同意就是李副審計長兩個禮拜之內提供給我一份相關的分析報告是再麻煩這邊處理反正全責相輔啦你們有多少資料就提供給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13863.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13864.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13887.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13895.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
副秘書長他因為另有要務那誰代理他 聽長行事廳的廳長還有法務部部長還有廉政署署長全序部的司長以及保訓會的專門委員還有人事行政總署專委那麻煩人事行政總署專委上台 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13918.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13935.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
首先我想今天很感謝主席排了這樣的一個專案報告我們大家都很關心其實全國民眾更關心我們如何能夠建立一個清廉的政府而且有效的防治公務員獨職 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13938.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13958.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
本席手上看到大家的報告 很多都是空泛的詞彙最嚴重的是我們人事行政總署 就是不到一頁去掉問候跟結語 中間大概就是直接把整個的 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13959.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13977.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
今天的專案報告內容就推給是廉政署再不然就是配合其他相關單位辦理本席在這裡要先講人事行政總署或是任何一個單位我們公務人員還有我們清廉的政府其實每個單位都有職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13978.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14005.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
不是說我人事行政總署我只是負責好像寫卡片我記錄絕對不是所以在這裡我特別針對人事行政總署那您可以先回座了後面的大概你就坐在底下聽那首先我們看到大家的報告但是我們想要的是什麼全民想要的是具體的行動還有明確的責任歸屬以及我們看得到成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14007.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14020.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我們手上的一個數據也是司法院提供的從98年到現在地方法院依據貪污治罪條例判決有罪者有三萬多個罪次30264罪次從105年至今判決沒收的金額超過31億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14028.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14040.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
從這些數據難道我們還沒有發現說我們面對的是一種系統性的問題嗎系統性的貪污或系統性的瀆職所以我們想要了解就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14042.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14066.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
這個大家都知道我們就是預防勝於治療但是如果預防不了那就要積極治療嘛那預防就是防癱嘛治療就是速癱嘛然後我看到不知道哪一個單位就寫防癱速癱接著再防癱那所以我們怎麼樣有效預防哪一個單位有效的跟我回答一下有效預防不是口頭說說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14071.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14097.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
如何有效預防那讓我們所有公務員他至少他覺得他絕對不能就他也 你的制度 制度設計你要讓他覺得他做了這件事他會付出很慘痛的代價所以不該做我們在預防方面有沒有哪一個單位哪一位今天在場的人你覺得你 廉政署是不是簡單說 因為我時間有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14106.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14126.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
做這個方面的一個調整那針對於國家廉政建設中其中我們的四大目標98年的一個行政指導然後到113年有修正然後剛剛他其中的那個目標的四大目標的部分就跟剛剛委員在講的東西是吻合的他有四大目標就是說不願貪不必貪不能貪不敢貪 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14127.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14146.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這四個目標然後再來有九個策略那在這個策略之中我們每年會去針對於國家廉政建設的地方去做一個目標的一個追這個就是說去追蹤但現在跟委員報告再一句話就好就是說目前有這個今年度已經這個出來然後我們也目前有94到95個部分是完成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14146.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14156.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那跟委員做一樣這樣的一個說明那至於說房攤的這個部分現在是我們廉政署工作的一個主軸我們從100年的7月20號到現在14年一開始是宿攤跟房攤並種你直接講重點你房攤制度設計有什麼你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14164.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14185.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
值得拿出來說我們現在的一個那個在部分上就是有提到的剛剛那個AI的那個部分我們先不提我們現在目前最主要AI該提等一下我也要問好那個就是說我們有一個這個機關採購廉政平台跟我們的這個這個各個檢查機關然後調查單位還有學者各方面組成一個平台針對重大的機關的採購的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14186.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14212.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
去跟這個就是阻擋外力的一個介入在這樣的一個過程之中我們目前上針對重大工程中你講到採購我請教我們常常最重要就重大工程的採購最容易出問題你們有沒有有那種預警模式包含用AI現在我們知道有些單位已經優先用AI他想辦法他有辦法去找會找出來那 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14214.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14228.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以我就一起問AI還有你有沒有一種預警模式你要預防你就要預警跟委員報告這個我們一向都在注意這一塊其實剛剛那個委員有提到的那個審計部裡面其實我要稱讚說審計部這邊確實做得很好再給我們一個啟發 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14229.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14256.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以我們現在開始也針對於AI的生成這個地方去做更防灘的前端的一個研究現在哪些單位有 今天站在這裡我請教啦 你的單位已經有開始著手要用AI去做一些防灘或者是包含你的業務 你有用AI來做這種科技上的你可以事先去找到或是事先去預防的請舉手哪個單位有在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14258.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14281.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
有嗎 只有法務部 其他的那就要再加強因為時間關係 接著房攤然後宿攤也很重要我們看到都是自己人查自己人請問包含司法院 包含法務部 廉政署 包含玄敘部我們在制度設計上 我們有沒有引入外部獨立的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14283.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14294.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
人事來進行調查而不是我自己人查自己人我怎麼知道你有沒有關關相護或者是怎麼樣這一塊有沒有可能進行專業的會計師啊律師啊來獨立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14298.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14327.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
跟委員報告 宿攤的部分目前我們都會要求那個正確性就是說在目前連任署的正確性大概是沒有啦 你就我的問題回答有沒有 我們有沒有這樣的制度引入外部獨立的專業的人士來進行我們有一個會叫做連任審查會它的連任審查會就是針對於我們案件如果要解哪裡還不足之處我們會有請一個各單位的專家跟外面的委員一起要認同這個案子已經查到已經他們都能夠覺得已經OK了我們才會解案 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14328.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14345.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
你各單位的專家我剛剛聽到各單位的專家還是自己人喔有工程會也有外界的學者不是我們自己人你的各單位不是這個不是不是不是外界的單位有來自各地的一些學者領域的學者還有工程會跟一些專業的機關來做這樣的一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14348.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14368.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
好 最後最後就是說我們這個看到新興科技日新月異除了AI來預防之外包含我們知道現在也很多用虛擬貨幣洗錢或什麼的那包含其他的可能日新月異的新興科技這一塊我們是不是也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14369.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14380.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
這個針對這個部分來進行風險評估或者是我們的包括查緝單位你有沒有你不能用傳統的方式去查嘛你現在能夠跟上腳步了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14380.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14398.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
以連任署的做法來說明跟委員講我們目前在財產申報之中在之前的一部分已經把這個這個虛擬貨幣已經列入其中的一個要申報的一個項目那我們對於怎麼樣去查核這件事情有去辦一些相關的跟素攤這邊去辦一些我的問題具體的是針對現在的新興科技包含現在虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果你有發現是跟虛擬貨幣有關我們現在有沒有棄查能力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14410.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14432.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我想我們跟調查局還有一些相關單位都會具有這樣方面的查緝能力都什麼樣我們當然會有查緝能力我們在針對於說目前的這個虛擬貨幣當然它有一些技術上的部分是比較就是說要精進的但是我們已經有注意到這一塊也會朝這個方向去做我們的一個人員上的一個培養的這方面能力的培養 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14433.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14453.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
所以我們還是希望就是說這個質詢時間很短但是我們看到的是希望都能夠日漸能夠有所成效而不是讓我們國人都一直看到現在台灣民眾都認為貪汙是理所當然的其實這是最不好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14454.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14473.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
最後我要請教因為整個單位的風氣包括我們全台灣是不是一個清廉的政府人家說風行草原風行草原上行下效我想請教最後我請法務部長好了風行草原上行下效我想請教您 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14475.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14486.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
您的長官或者是您自己你們平常用什麼樣的聲教言教你們在帶領我們整個的公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14487.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14506.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
就陳儒委員我想指證俗感不正風險超越我具體一點就是說我們不知道說我們現在的領導者從上到下從行政院總統府行政院一直到各部會再往下到底有沒有這種我們就是要清廉政府的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14509.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14517.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
這種帶領這種風氣營造包含這些領導者的言行甚至他的聲教有沒有什麼具體的可以講給我們聽看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14518.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14548.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我想以法務部的一個立場我們就是重視那個預防嘛沒有沒有沒有 我要聽具體就是在你這個上任一年多以來不管是賴總統或卓院長還有什麼具體的有在跟大家耳提面面或是什麼具體的做法帶著大家要這樣 有沒有我想以現在的一個內閣政府就是要強調那個青年執政嘛那我想這個我還是沒聽到他講過什麼你有印象的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14553.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14566.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
或是你,你平常帶領你的部署,你怎麼跟他們說?證人要正級,我們是執法單位,我們的證人要正級嘛法務部其實所屬的都是屬於,他們就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14568.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14590.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
辦理申辦犯罪的一個重要的一個職長那也一些的樹攤的一個政策防災政策我想我們之後就有權力來推動那我跟委員報告那個我們青年印象指數我們是一直在進步我們去年這一年我們那個青年印象指數我們是國際上是20不要老是用表面的數據這是國際公認的民眾的感受比較重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14594.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14619.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這我想這個是國際公認我想民眾因為他對我們政府的期望是很高的所以你覺得民眾期望太高了沒有沒有這個一直民眾期望本來就很高那你有沒有聽過從賴政府上來因為您是去年才就任賴政府上來之後賴總統跟卓院長有沒有怎麼樣特別特別賴總統有講嘛說凡涉及不法犯罪不分黨派勿枉勿縱嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14621.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14630.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我是說清廉嘛,清廉的部分呢?我想我們一起全面努力,這個包括公部門、私部門,因為我跟文報告,那個貪腐的問題,從聯合國反貪腐公會以及我們國際的這些透明組織,他們是認為公部門貪腐跟私部門貪腐,那個都要解決。 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14643.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14662.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
那都要解決那我想我們國家在一個整個青年的在一個國際的一個空瓶上我們CPI指數是一直在增加以去年我們就進步了三名進步了我們67分進步了三名那個很多先進國還在我們的後面我們亞太地區我們是第七名那這個我想這個媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14667.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14686.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
當然我們在國際上有很好的這種數字表現我們當然還是要肯定大家但是只是我的問題是我想知道說平常到底我們整個的氛圍整個的行政團隊的氛圍沒關係因為時間的關係你講那麼多我還是沒聽到我要的好 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14691.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14720.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
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