| IVOD_ID |
167191 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167191 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-19T10:54:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-19T11:07:12+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4ba512932926f8519f3fedb5a40713ba75d69df13e4e8eda8205b9f77f5a55a6176963589987de955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:54:33 - 11:07:12 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長與財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、邀請內政部部長就「賴清德總統興建13萬戶社會住宅政策無法落實之檢討」進行專題報告並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席 內政部部長有請請劉部長委員好部長午安 這個現在我就直接問問題好了就現在確定這個 |
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減少直接興建社會住宅已經確定是中央政府的政策方向了嗎在目前為止我們已經有跟院長報告過但是我們的總目標100萬還是沒有變我只問你直接興建社宅嗎直接用樹地來興建的部分可能會減少但是並不是表示停止跟委員報告因為太多人在網路上面用誤解的方式來誤解我們的社會住宅政策所以不是不蓋只是減少 是吧 |
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因為目前在溝通上出現困擾所謂的溝通上出現困擾就是說包括這個北北桃中的這個四個市政府了他們現在也目前也出現是戰就是說速度會變慢那大概速度變慢這個牛委員都非常清楚您對這一塊是非常有精闢的見解的所以我們就是跟著他配合 |
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所以就跳票了嘛 對不對 |
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122.337 |
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目前賴總統上任是一年半多那我們是朝著這個方向來努力但是我想您剛也看到了就是蔡總統的八年任內的二十萬戶很辛苦目前很辛苦我理解我從來都很我看這個是一定很寬啦但是你如果就講今天你講政策要修正那你就要承認嘛你當初開出來的支票太大張而且有跳票的狀況部長你會不會承認這件事 |
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我覺得在數據上確實是需要調整數據上確實是需要調整好現在很多人當然這個事情當然就社會震動啦尤其是關注居住正義政策的公民團體也好有需求的人們也好這原因是什麼我想我們也講得很清楚不管在媒體上或怎麼樣都講得非常清楚 |
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因為在過去這麼一段時間討論居住正義的政策流變裡面直接興建住宅到了最後其實是變成大家的平衡點嘛因為你很多深水區的東西比如說當然我們也看到之前內政部有講國土署有講我們可以釋出很多的空屋啊那我們是不是要克爭 |
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更重的囤房稅等等呢這些東西前面很多人倡議但之所以沒有辦法一步到位就是因為這東西涉及了更複雜的利益結構然後以至於要推動相關的政策要付出更高的成本所以果足不前嘛我們前一段時間在這個地方去審理住宅法去討論到稅制的問題的時候政府也一律是保守以對嘛 |
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178.275 |
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這就是為什麼到了最後大家就是期待說我可以直接興建社宅所以我們有更穩健的社會住宅政策確實政府要花很多錢去興建社會住宅但是難道不值得嗎 部長 |
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215.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
穩健的社會住宅政策是我們共識性最高的那如何做到穩健的社會住宅政策我剛跟委員報告過我們必須要一步一腳印而且呢在數據上面的我們可能會調整但是並不是表示說完全歸零部長我們之前在這個地方討論過很多住宅相關的政策大家也都非常清楚其實你在直接興建社會住宅裡面成本最高的其實就是土地嘛如果土地有辦法順利取得你還會覺得這件事情財務負擔非常大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
247.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
不是啦如果社宅的土地可以順利的取得直接興建社會住宅的政策的阻力會不會那麼大會不會壓力很大不能只有因為土地成本而已還有其他的成本譬如說跟委員報告有些社會住宅所興建的地區它等於是一個造鎮的計畫那造鎮計畫裡面交通運輸都市計畫的變更等等這些都是需要曠日廢時的這個委員了解的非常的清楚這就是本席今天要特別跟你討論因為我們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
當然你推薦這政策很困難 你有很多的理由是本心願意理解但很多理由其實完全站不住腳了 譬如說我們可以一起來討論我最不能理解的理由就是說 我們沒有什麼剩餘的國有地啦剩下的國有地都在偏遠的地區啊 蓋了也沒有人要住欸這非常荒唐部長 你也抓內政部對不對 國督署也抓這麼多的都市計畫我們光是北北七桃這四個縣市啊 現在有多少條捷運正在蓋北北桃中 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
290.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
沒關係 我先講北北基桃就好北部事件是就好我還先不講台中跟南台灣的獨匯區我先講北台灣的獨匯區就好有多少條捷運正在蓋部長知道嗎多少條捷運正在蓋對 大概就好你是說新北還是基隆北北基桃基隆是北北基桃你現在是講哪一條線有多少條捷運正在興建 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
294.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
沒關係 今天交通部不在 我不為難你 我唸給你聽環狀線有北環 東環 南環 萬大線有一期 二期有汐止民生線 有基隆捷運在桃園有中線 有綠線 綠線延伸中壢還有鐵路地下化等等這些捷運的大型建設計畫很多基本上至少都是進到綜合規劃階段 很多都已經核定了這些計畫會帶來多少廠商開發 TOD的都市計畫變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
342.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我知道委員就是要告訴我TOD但是TOD是不是能夠變成唯一拉動這個直接興建社宅的一個因素其實都是要多重討論所以我剛有提到說我們的態度是穩健的推動社會住宅政策我現在就很擔心啦因為光是這些有捷運建設的地方它怎麼會是偏遠而且沒有人會願意居住的地方呢他們都是有人願意居住的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
342.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
360.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以需要時間我們當初在修正住宅法的時候捷運蓋完的時候可能需要十年的時間我們一度有在討論是不是要把這些區段徵收市地重劃等等取得我留一定的比例一定要興建設宅就是給你大量的土地結果你當初內政部的態度是什麼說我們不要把這個寫得太死不要把它講得太明我們一定會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
361.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
371.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
結果結論是 如果我們沒有給予相關的一些措施的時候你的結論就是不做嘛 然後你開始說 我土地取得很困難這不是很奇怪嗎 明明就有法規上的條件 有建設上的態度如果你認為說3%跟5%的土地取得的話 可能要入法因為我們在過去的一段時間當中 跟所謂的直轄市政府也討論過有些直轄市政府就直接反對3%到5%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以我跟你講嘛所以我剛有提到說我們在直接興建社會住宅裡面最大的問題是溝通溝通還包括中央政府跟地方政府的溝通所以部長你現在是在指控這些直轄市的線索都不想蓋社宅嗎因為就本席的理解地方政府對於這個計畫是不會排斥的嘛不會排斥那你為什麼要自己踩煞車呢對不對我們也沒有踩煞車我剛跟委員報告過我們現在在調整方向怎麼樣穩健的推動包括桃園市長跟新北市長他們也覺得穩健的推動非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
428.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們如果沒有一起合作中央政府如果沒有跟地方政府一起合作的話社會住宅是蓋不成的當然嘛所以我們沒有要踩煞車嘛委員你這樣講你沒有要踩煞車你就維持13萬戶的宣誓你盡量去做不就好了嗎那你為什麼要主動講說我們蓋不成我們現在努力的推進當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
429.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
443.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那不就很奇怪嗎 但是沒有定案沒有定案又變怎麼回事 不是 報告委員每一件 每一件事情都是要穩健推動的時候從土地的取得到資金到TOD到東西計畫都是要跟地方政府一起來合作我都是鼓勵你積極的去取得積極的去推動我們非常的積極 那你們很積極所以才要穩健那為什麼你要把13萬5計畫砍掉嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
452.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
479.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你為什麼辭職不核定然後最後說我要我們還有說砍掉呢我們意思是要調整這個方向那你為什麼要調整調整方向是因為在有限的時間裡面要麻煩地方政府非常的多而且地方政府他們原先所提出的答應直接興建的戶數也非常的多甚至有些到目前為止就完成千戶而已而不是萬戶你有很多的新計畫各地方縣市政府也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
若干的進度或一些想法這樣子好了你會後提供相關的資料因為你一下講說我們還是很積極一下講說穩健一下講說還沒有定案沒有這些都是可及性務實性跟精準性三個原則你會後提供相關的資料到底現在直接興建社會住宅的時間表你的穩健所謂的等等相關的一些資料做一下提供讓大家做長期追蹤但本席是建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
503.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
525.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就按照13萬戶的目標 你去拼嘛而不是說 我今天做不到 我就砍我現在 現在大家擔心破窗啊我說13萬戶 現在一下變6萬 一下說4萬 對不對會不會過兩年變2萬變1萬這個是人民的擔心啦這本期只是提醒你而已 好不好希望部長好好加油對不起 原民會我還有1分鐘 部長請回 原民會主委喂好 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
533.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
561.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主委 這個我們跟你討論一下桃園羅湖的那個市地重發案因為跟你手下開會開了半天耶這個大概是第一個有涉及原保地但是這個我想在市政府規劃相關的案例裡面對於土地的運用 地主的權益其實都已經做了確保但是因為法規上的一些疏漏而且過去沒有這樣子的一個案例喔所以還是停滯不前啊那看起來這個原民會的態度現在是怎樣如果不修法你就一定不會沒有辦法用任何其他的方式來調整這樣這是可以圓滿的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
564.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
583.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
跟委員報告因為我們那個在去年12月21號的時候有請那個桃園市政府針對那個4D重畫因為這個案子涉及到的原住民地主有14位那14位地主當中如果依照重畫完之後獲配的只有3位那所以我們要求桃園市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
610.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
針對其他的沒有受配的11個土地所有權人的部分進行說明會那桃園市政府後來也召開說明會但是這次說明會當中只有3個地主有到11個基地地主都沒有到那這3個地主當中甚至有幾乎都是反對就是說他們重案所以我們覺得說在這樣子的一個程序正義的部分我們會要求桃園市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
611.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
617.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
就讓我們的這14個地主的部分他有資的權利知道說他們這個重劃案對他們的土地權益有什麼影響所以我們已經要求桃園市政府針對這未到的11個原住民地主然後進一步的說明本期要擔心因為我們那時候協調會其實就是這樣嘛桃園市政府要去負責地主溝通的相關的一個部分嘛那我們這邊要負責法規上的解釋的排除部分我們要擔心的是會不會地主溝通大家都OK了到時候你還是卡在法規會不會不會確定不會喔不會這裡可以押軍令狀喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
641.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
668.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不是 根據主委報告 其實因為那個土地重化的主管機關在內政部地政室其實我沒有跟內政部地政室協調 講好了嘛其實他們正式含附的文的部分其實並沒有具體回覆就是說這個如果4D重化的結果如果是不是算是由政府取得這種情形所以這個部分我們還是回歸到我們三保條例37條有關於原保地發射的精神是在保障原住民生計的這樣子的一個立場所以我在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
669.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
694.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這跟相關地主的權益溝通 這個市政府要把它做好 對對對對那只要他們同意這個要件就算符合了 對嗎還要考慮到說法規面的問題這就是本期今天問這個問題會不會大家溝通好了 到最後你還說我還是要考慮法規面的問題可是跟委員報告 其實目前來看齁我們在去年12月21號 召開這個說明會三個地主 已經到這三個地主的部分其實幾乎都反對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
695.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
713.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
地主的問題不是你要處理的嘛是市政府要去溝通的嘛我要問的是程序面的問題只要地主都講好是不是就可以嘛還是我一定要為了這個事情又要去啟動修法我覺得是很奇怪這當然也是有公共利益啊因為未來也許會有其他的案例也是這樣做處理的只要地主的權益可以被確保原民的權益不會受損其實應該要樂見地方的有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
713.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
730.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
做合理的重新規劃跟發展報告委員 我們園民會針對那個原住民保地開要管理辦法現在主管機關的立場就是要保障原住民族的一個生計所以這樣子的一個立場我們會去從這個方向去解釋對 所以 這個主委 就他說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
731.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
757.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
不管怎麼樣都還是要看法規嗎還是你可以做個組決定一下這件事我們可以用政策解釋的方式處理嘛你說政策解釋我就回去催桃園市政府趕快完成溝通程序這事就圓滿了嘛可以做到這樣嗎希望兩方面都能夠完成啦尤其是那個你現在又變希望兩方面都要完成了對對對對所以那還是要修法例子囉 要解套的話對齁 你說的是對 好 這樣我知道了謝謝 辛苦了 |