| IVOD_ID |
16719 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16719 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
23 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-29T08:31:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-29T11:09:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:37:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eadd65533a85eaa9afd6a76734f7399182a12e9ca99aa835c0be9ca477ce4e7e6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議則不予審查。】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:03 - 11:09:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
2074.861 |
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好請主任秘書報告出席人數出席委員11人已足法定人數好我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議之路 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2086.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2110.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一届第三會及內政委員會第二十二次全體委員會議事錄時間一百十四年五月二十八日星期三上午九時二分至十二十六分地點紅樓二零二會議室出席委員黃潔委員等十三人列席委員鍾嘉斌委員等十九人請假委員黃建斌委員一人列席官員行政院秘書長公民經濟相關人員行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修主席張昭吉委員洪祿 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2110.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2130.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
报告事项一宣读上次会议事录决定确定二处理114年度中央政府总预算案有关行政院预算冻结案书面报告案及二案决定以上二案书面报告均已送达预算队也动之拟据报告提报用会讨论事项处理114年度中央政府总预算案有关行政院预算冻结案专案报告书面报告案及六案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2131.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2153.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
討論事項和並尋答行政院秘書長公民信報告委員高金素梅等18人質詢由行政院秘書長公民信及相關人員行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢尋答結束委員王宏威所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2155.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2170.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
決議討論事項依關乎議案並定期繼續審查其餘個案均同意動之擬據報告提報院會宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有好議事錄確定繼續進行討論事項請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2174.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2181.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
1.审查委员邱志伟等16人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第9条及第91条条文修正草案2. |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2181.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2187.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
审查委员王定宇等16人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第9条之3条文修正草案3. |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2187.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2192.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
审查委员王美惠等17人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第9条之3第9条之4 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2192.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2213.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
及第九十一条条文修正查案四审查文林楚英等二十人拟据台湾地区与大陆地区人民关系条例第九十条条文修正查案五审查文沈伯扬等二十人拟据香港澳门关系条例第十条条文修正查案六审查文张红露等二十人拟据香港澳门关系条例第十四条第十四条之一及第四十七条之一条文修正查案宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2215.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2239.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本日議程所列討論事項合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員張志倫委員王美惠委員麥玉珍委員林儲英委員黃潔委員蘇巧惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2246.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2265.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
李坤哲委員沈伯陽委員我們陸委會的主任委員邱垂正主委請提案委員說明提案要旨我們先請沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2279.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2296.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝,我稍微做個提案說明因為我們國防外交今天考察,所以我等一下馬上過去我們這次提出來的修正草案其實很簡單港澳條例我們是希望它在旅行的部分到港澳的部分去跟兩岸條例做對齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2298.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2324.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那為什麼會這個樣子是因為港澳目前尤其是國安法相關的規定它的危險程度它的風險程度其實跟中國基本上是一致的所以我們根據中國相關的一些管理措施跟風險的控管措施根據港澳的措施其實應該是要對齊所以提出這樣的一個港澳條例的修正但另外一個我覺得也是一個miss就是雖然這個在程序委員會通過之後今天被排案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2325.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2346.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
但其實我們最主要想要修正的其實是兩岸條例我們兩岸條例對於民意代表尤其是立法委員去中國的這個部分我們認為是應該要做相對應的修正然後港澳條例再去跟這樣的一個修正對齊但因為我們的這一個兩岸條例的修正已經被國民黨跟民眾黨擋了422次所以他沒有辦法進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2347.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2373.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那變成是我們港澳條例進來之後呢這個有點失去這個複利沒有辦法被好好的討論所以呢這個呢等到之後再進入主條的時候呢我們應該就會來提出這種再修正的這個動議讓我們這一個呢在程序委員會莫名其妙被擋下的能夠被這樣的討論那不然的話呢我們港澳條例放在這邊就沒有什麼實質的意義那最後呢還是再說明一下就是說呢這一個雖然他們在檔案都沒有什麼什麼很 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2374.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2403.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
很好的一個理由但是呢最常被講的就是立法權跟行政權之間的分界那我必須要講立法委員去中國根本就不是職權的行事去敵國通敵也不是職權的行事那不是職權的行事那怎麼會有立法權跟行政權的分界呢如果真的要按照這樣的邏輯下來的話那麼請問立法委員要不要報稅那如果今天跟國稅局報稅會不會說今天是國稅局財政部行政權在凌駕立法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2404.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2431.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
現在現行的條文請問司法院請問如果院長要去中國要不要去跟聯審會報備要那會不會因為這樣司法獨立就不具備了也不會所以這根本就是一個謬論這根本也不是一個檔案的理由更不要講說程序檔案只能根據比如說你到底有沒有寫修法理由有沒有15位委員的簽名用這樣的一個方式呢才是真正的在程序委員會要審查的重點而不是根據法條的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2432.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2454.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
如果對法條的內容有異議,都應該進入委員會的討論所以再一次還是要譴責,就是兩岸條例被擋下422次這件事情結果在港澳條例他們漏檔了,所以才今天讓我可以在這邊來做提案說明但是很抱歉沒有辦法跟到最後,是因為我是國防外交的趙偉我們現在有這個考察,所以我現在必須要過去那我提案說明到這邊,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2467.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2471.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
謝謝主席 各位同仁還有與會的官員 大家早安喔本席針對台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條建議將現行台灣人民擔任中共黨政軍職務之罰還上限由原本的新台幣五十萬提升到一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2483.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2504.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這是基於國安、縣市與經濟現實的雙重考量本席樂見在陸委會的回函當中同意本席的修法方向那麼提高法則額度以嚇阻、形塑、融合假象營造統戰樣板的事態本席呢也將在實質討論的時候提出修正動議來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2506.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2518.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
提議暗刺處罰以有效避免類似的案情發生其實我們都知道中共對台灣的滲透是更加精緻而且具有系統性透過區隔對待拉同打異 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2521.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2537.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
首法来诱使台湾社会局部的进行软化除了对产业跟地方进行点对点的吸纳更刻意的透过统战名目向特定的台湾人士来授予全国政协委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2551.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2553.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們看到目前所裁定的罰金是在2003年的時候所制定了距離現在已經超過了20年當年我們平均的人均GDP是14000美元如今已經來到了32000美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2568.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2572.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
社會整體的經濟結構物價水平與政治風險環境都已經不一樣了在實務上陸委會其實近期也查到了確實是有台灣民眾來擔任中共全國政協委員人大代表甚至於產業中心執行長將的職位而這些職位所能調動的資源能量早已遠遠超於原條文所設計的想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2593.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2598.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
再者我們看到在立法院當中也有委員不顧國安風險公然的帶團附中這些與中共官員把手言歡的場面這些行為對台灣社會所發出的錯誤訊息彷彿是向中國遞出了投名狀所以對於本席現在所制定的條文希望在實質討論的時候能夠獲得在場所有朝野委員的支持我想這對於台灣來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2623.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2630.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
只有立下這樣的一個案本案才能夠從制度面正本清源謝謝好謝謝那我們現在請陸委會邱主委報告請簡短 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2652.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2666.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
謝謝主席承蒙貴委員會的邀請這個針對貴委會審查兩岸條例以及港澳條例的修法草案我們進行相關的報告那麼請大家指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2668.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2696.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第一中共長期對我統戰滲透那麼本會正依總統指示全面檢視研修相關的法令那麼長久以來中共對台統戰滲透無所不用其極嚴重威脅我們國家安全與社會安定那麼在今年3月13號提出的五大國安及統戰威脅以及17項的因應策略以清楚指出為了因應中共對我統戰滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2698.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2724.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
中央跟地方各級公職人員赴中國大陸交流的揭露制度兩岸交流要避免受到陸方政治統戰滲透干預所衍生的國安風險等所以各機關應全面檢視相關的法令必要時提出相關的法規修正案來進速落實同時我們也依總統指示會同相關機關盤點現行規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2727.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2755.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
研議推動相關的修法工作這次新建我們大院有許多委員提出相關的修正案進行審議討論就委員所提出的兩岸條例的規定我想絕大部分都是來強化我們國家安全及維護我們國家安全利益與尊嚴目的都是強化民主防衛合作的努力這些跟本會的立場是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2756.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2772.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那本會也支持相關的修法的方向那包括第一案有關於邱志偉委員所提的案子這個台灣人民負辱不得負荷 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2773.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2799.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
配合中共党政军等发表危害我国存在或变更自由民主宪政秩序的内容的部分为了避免中共利用台湾民众发表矮化我主权等正义言行混淆我国家认同遂行其侵略并吞台湾的政治企图本提案有助于维护我国国家主权与尊严本会予以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2800.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2818.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們也感謝委員的用心但是對於涉及人民言論及表意範疇的限制考慮相關的文字屬於不確定的法律概念為顧及整體民眾的基本權益的保護使民眾得以預先預見相關的規範內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2821.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2828.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
以及我們行政機關得以認定及執行以及司法審查得以確認所以相關的規範的文字我們在討論可以進一步來研議不過我們肯定委員的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2836.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2854.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第二有關於王定宇委員等提案的部分考慮承認相關職務的人員均具有指標性的意義倘若配合中共發表相關的統戰言論對於我們社會民心可能產生高度的不利影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2854.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2875.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以相關的行為確有立法禁止之必要我們也感謝委員的用心因為相關涉及相關人員的言論及表意範疇的限制所以我們也是建議這個法案在討論時可以進一步就文字上來進一步研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2877.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2902.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那第三案是王美惠等委員的提案那麼最主要也是擴大規範的主體及增加規範行為樣態不得公然發表我國非主權獨立國家而是其他國家之一部且因以武力達成這部分之內容本會也表達贊同兩案條例第九條 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2904.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2918.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
諮商規範的主體範圍因適度擴大以符合整體社會的期待與規範的需求但是也鑒於本條例對於承認具有指標性意義職務之人員的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2920.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2947.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不宜过度宽泛以符合比例原则所以我们也建议在法案进一步讨论的时候来研议以寻求共识那就增加规范行为样态的部分我们也是一样因为涉及相关人员言论及表意的范畴我们来进一步来跟委员的情谊来凝聚社会共识 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2948.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2964.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那有關於剛剛林委員所報告的部分來考量中共加大對於我們促龍統戰以及用我國人擔任中國大陸相關的職務黨政軍的職務以營造統戰樣板 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2969.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2986.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以提請提高裁罰額度有助於嚇阻相關情勢那本會呢非常支持這個修法方向同時呢我們也建議剛剛委員也提到了可以並入按次處罰連續罰以更加有效來嚇阻相關的類似的情形來發生那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2993.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3015.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
港澳條例的部分有關第五案剛剛省委員的提案我們都完全的支持對於委員提案修法通過後對於公務員或具有特定身份人員赴港澳適用兩條例加強管理至於一般人赴港澳則與現行的規定一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3016.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3038.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
也是與本會的政策方向相符合那目前港澳的部分現期公務人員是以行政院及所屬各機關人員赴港澳的注意事項作為控管機制我們針對這個部分也在強化它的機制的完整性那地方政府可以比照來因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3039.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3056.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那對於因應港澳的這個情勢的發展為了防範中共借港澳人員資金等對我進行滲透政府也強化了港澳居民申請入境居留定居投資等各項審查把關也會持續密鑄情勢的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3059.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3087.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
一旦偵測有危害國家安全或損及國人權益之餘人會持續檢討法規並依法啟動應變措施以確保國家安全與社會安定對於第二案我們張委員等人提出有關於港澳條例第14條第14條之一及47條之一港澳居民受強制出境處分的委任律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3088.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3102.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
及同意在場天然災害疫情等不可抗力因素至無法強制促進增訂延長與再延長收容的室遊配合移民法修正增訂或提高罰則的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3103.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3123.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
考量未符合人身自由制度保障的安全那麼入出國移民法已經配合我們這個法規是配合入出國移民法的條文來修正為橫屏境外人士的人流管理程序罰則相關的措施那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3124.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3152.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
港澳條例需要參照配套修正那麼本會以前併這個擬具兩案條例還有港澳條例正由行政院審查當中但是就今天的立場本會支持立委相關的提案那麼配合我們移民署正在提出來的提審法再次研議這個入出國移民法的修正條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3153.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3171.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
也會連動它收容的天數等等所以港澳條例及兩岸條例相關條文的修正即使本次完成修正也不排除可能要配合移民法的再次修正不管怎麼樣我們今天都配合大宴的最後的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3172.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3189.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那麼最後結語面對中共近年來的加大文攻武嚇經濟脅迫及灰色地帶侵擾等複合性的壓迫並持續遂行統戰滲透及干預作為本會將循政府政策方向協同相關機關持續滾動檢討兩岸事務相關法令採取積極必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3196.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3203.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
應處及防範措施以維護國家安全社會安定民眾的福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3204.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3230.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們也持續密注港澳情勢的變化適時推動港澳條例修法工作本會也會持續依照總統指示相關推動修法研議的工作希望行政跟立法共同強化我國家安全相關法制以有效遏阻相關不法行為以維護我國家安全與社會安定以及民眾福祉以上報告敬請各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3238.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3265.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們先各位委員我們現在進行詢答委員執行權原例座以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5加1分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天處理法案本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見好沒有好現在進行詢答請登記地位的舒巧會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3274.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3277.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主委好 主委我們台灣是一個自由民主的國家 同意吧當然那所以台灣有言論自由當然 這是我們國人之所以驕傲的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3293.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3316.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
但台灣正是因為我們是一個依循憲政體制有民主自由的國家所以我們在有言論自由的同時應該對這個言論自由還是有一個基本的界限就是它不能破壞言論自由賴以生存發展的憲政秩序也不能夠有消滅國家的狀態這個同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3318.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3340.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
是的我們認為雖然我們自己民主法治的國家我們尊重國人的言論自由這是我們民主化以來非常重要的民主價值以及生活方式但是有界限比如說像最近要消滅我們國家主權地位要鼓吹用武力的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3342.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3357.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
來侵略台灣這些恐怕都不是法律所許可的所以我們很清楚我們有言論自由但是言論自由的界限在於你不能夠破壞憲政體秩序也不能夠消滅國家這很清楚的兩個支柱嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3361.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3386.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好 那如果是這樣子的話 那我請問你幾個狀態啊因為今天你剛剛的整篇的報告其實就是存在言論自由與國家安全兩個方向之間在做一個讓社會更清楚的界線展現嘛那所以比如說我問你 來 第一個如果台灣人在台灣自發性的發表支持統一的言論 這有觸法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3388.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3390.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我想這應該是屬於言論自由的範疇所以這沒有處罰那如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國武力統一台灣或支持中國對台軍演這樣有處罰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3405.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3410.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我想這會引起台灣極大的相當的不安引起不安不等於處罰嘛對不對我們還是要了解他背後的踪跡沒錯主委你說的對所以如果台灣人在台灣發表支持中國對台軍演或者是支持中國武力統一他必須要看個案因為我們的兩岸人民關係條例第33條之一裡面有說到說你是不是有跟中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3435.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3441.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
中國的黨政軍配合發表你剛剛的這一段言論所以必須個案調查這個界線也很清楚好來如果台灣人到中國去了已經進入到中國了在中國發表支持中國對台軍演支持中國武力統一台灣這有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3456.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3461.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我想他會引發國人的不滿 檢舉我們也非常關切我們認為他為什麼會講這個話如果說委員所說的跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為那就一定有問題嘛 對不對好 所以除了剛剛這個問題已經進入到中國而發表這樣的狀況的話他除了剛剛的兩岸人民關係條例33條之一之外其實還有第九條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3480.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3488.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
第九條的話是你進入到中國以後你不能夠有危害國家安全的行為所以我們的法律其實已經訂有相關的規則但今天我們的狀態就是因為在面對中國越來越多的統戰行為也就是中國想要統一台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3501.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3506.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
拿回去台灣並吞台灣回去在這樣的過程當中行為樣態越來越多所以我們檢視我們過去的法條是否足以規範應對現在的狀況所以我們要不要討論要不要修法要不要更明確讓人民知道怎麼去行為措止自己的狀態從言論到行為這其實是保護人民不要觸法 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3526.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3534.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
另外也是對國家台灣這個民主自由的國家最大的保障這也沒有問題嘛對不對所以我們今天要對行為主體行為樣態做比較明確的規範以及到後方你行為發生了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3542.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3562.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
是否有罰則要能夠更具體這就是今天在討論的狀態啊所以我們其實是在這些狀態你如果把它羅列出來以後你很清楚言論自由是存在的而且有相當大的空間你甚至在台灣你自發性的要主張統一你其實這是屬於言論自由的範圍但問題是如果你主張是用武力來統一台灣武統就像宗沛雅雅的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3570.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3594.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
他就是因為在網路上面已經高調的宣傳支持有這對台灣武力統一的狀態中國對台武力統一所以移民署對他廢止了他的居留權嘛好那主委那我問你那現在大家在問的藝人的這個部分呢你認為藝人的這個部分陸委會我們的政府到底有什麼樣的態度表達嗎如果根據剛剛這樣清楚的規定的話那你對藝人的判斷藝人最近的行為的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3600.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3624.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
是 謝謝委員就有關藝人在中國大陸生活可能被政治脅迫發表了一些比如說配合中國大陸軍演威和台灣或者是矮化或消滅我們中華民國主權像這些言論那麼我們都不認為它是自發行為而是背後極可能跟中國大陸黨政軍有合作行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3625.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3634.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們就透過這個來進行必要的行政查處那麼查處他到底是受到什麼樣的脅迫我們不認為他是自發行為這種在一個特定的時刻集體轉發相同的圖貼跟蔣一樣的話我們認為這極可能是跟中國大陸的合作行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3646.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3651.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
主委我認為是這樣其實你剛剛的談話當然社會大眾是對在詢問你問題的時候會說對藝人可是事實上我們的政府並不是對藝人這個行業有特別的規範而是對全體的台灣國民對全體想要保護台灣國家安全的人民能夠做出一個統一性的規範就是台灣的國民竟然在這裡享受了我們憲政民主秩序之下的言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3676.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3691.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
種種的自由那你對國家的安全應該要有所付出有所保障所以你不能夠配合對岸的黨戰軍對台灣有武力統一的行為嘛就是這麼簡單的狀況跟藝人的身份職業沒有關係是對全體的國人今天你不管是退將也好藝人也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3698.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3702.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
台商也好任何人都好其實是適用同樣的規定而你的行為樣態如果你是受到脅迫的是一種狀態如果你是合作的狀態那你確實是有被法律規定的狀況政府應該要予以懲處嘛查處嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3715.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3743.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這就是界定清楚反而是讓大家的行為更清楚更知道要怎麼去措止所以今天我想大家都有很多的問題時間的關係我們先談到這裡我的期待就是希望陸委會能夠藉著這次的修法再一次的拉出更明確的界線讓台灣的國民知道要怎麼去做自己的行為言論讓自己安全也讓國家安全我希望在下次修法的時候陸委會能夠提出更明確的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3745.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3750.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
謝謝委員 我也支持委員剛剛所有的說明以立場 謝謝好 謝謝好 我們請蔓郁貞委員主席好 請主委好 請主委蔓郁貞好 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3774.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3798.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
主委好 想要譬如說行政機關確認立法原則是否符合憲法的保障這人身自由 遷途自由和國會自律的原則我們沈伯陽委員先前曾經提出針對立委參與秘密會議人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3801.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3820.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
附中需申請於審查會審查請問我們的內政部還有我們的法務部及大陸委員會是否已經評估該提案是否可能違法憲法第十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3821.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3846.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
遷徒自由第23條的比例原則若有立委要摘以事前許可的制度也是否等同對人民或者民意代表行使憲政職能的過度干預呢所以這個部分是哪一位可以回應我 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3847.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3865.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
謝謝委員的關切其實我們就是按照現行條文我們第九條第四項也明確就是涉及到這個各個單位的涉密人員那其實我們陸委會都有要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3867.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3890.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
五院都要提出各個政府機關單位只要有涉及國家機密的人要覆錄都要提個名單讓我們來做審查那我們很遺憾現在只剩下立法院沒有提出來其他四院都有提出涉密人員到我們移民署來做這個覆錄的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3892.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3912.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那我們也多次跟大院來要求 甚至大院用法律明確化原則其實我們在法律上面就有明確的條文要求如果涉及到國家機密 依法都要送相關的主管機關來做附錄的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3915.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3936.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那所以剛剛省委員說也呼籲立法院能夠提案那他這個沒有違法的是符合我們現在兩岸條例現行條文未來我們修法可以更加的明確化有法律依據這是我們未來努力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3937.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3938.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
但是檢視我們省委員之前提的案是否違背行政與立法權的分立原則以及是否行使行政審查侵害立法權自律的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3960.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3975.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以立法院屬於國會依我們中華民國憲法第62條的規定立法院有益正於監督行政之職者如果立委附中 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3976.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4002.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
需进行政机关的组织的审查会审查许可是否违反宪法之上的行政不干预国会的原则而台湾民众党主张立法院与地方议会各自为政分权自治所以包庇于通报是由 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4004.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4014.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
各院自行就是定定所以是否更符合就是我们的宪政的架构这个就是我们的主张 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4015.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4037.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我想維護國家安全不僅是人人有責況且是我們這些軍公教人員更是要配合但是不應該有像我們法官附路也是要進行這方面的審查那不應該以願績來規避畢竟我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4041.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4056.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
在法條上就是非常清楚就是說國防外交情報大陸事務或其他相關機關從事涉及國家安全利益機密業務的人員其他相關機關也包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4059.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4083.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
現在我們講的就是我們的立法權所以我們比較強制的就是說許可審查制與報備通報制在風險反控制憲政原則之間的平衡性最後我想要請教我們大陸委員會與內政部對於立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4084.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4093.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
俘虏之火可能涉及国安的风险所以台湾民众党要求立委行前报备 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4095.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4116.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
行后通报而且是立法院制定的执行的细则是否就是具备行政监督所欲达成之透明性与风险管控的目标所以在无涉及具体危害就是你说的就是情之前是否以报备就是制度取代事前的审查更符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4123.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4127.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
比例原則啦這個就是我們大家在講的但是剛才我們為什麼說我們要擋那個沈伯源的他就是一直在強調的是說敵國敵國但是呢我們所有的立委都希望兩岸和平所以呢我們是希望你覺得是希望兩岸和平還是強調敵國 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4150.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4160.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
附入做必要的申請審查跟兩岸和平無關我們希望這是說你比如說我們的政官指甲師市長縣市長還有群體的分立這個都是依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4166.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4173.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
都要來申請審查許可才能附入我們也希望立法院立法委員都能夠配合這個政策我是想要問你說我們是不是希望兩岸和平我們希望兩岸和平但是兩岸和平跟附入審查是兩回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4186.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4212.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
對我們審查的兩回事但是因為我看到其他立委是講這樣子我才要問你的嘛所以中商就是三個階段的分析啦民進黨版先前提的雖然有國安的初衷但可能落入就是違憲的餘力所以包含違反就是憲法的保障制遷途自由於 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4214.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4218.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
議會自立的原則反觀我們台灣民眾黨的主張以分權自立的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4232.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4251.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
建構包庇的制度尊重各權力機關自主定定的內規符合憲政的分工還有比例原則與資訊透明的要求這是一項更可行且符合法治國家的原則制度設計應得 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4258.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4265.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
應獲得委員會優先的討論這個就是我們的主張所以我們希望就是我們是促進兩岸和平不要就一直在就是別人說武統我們覺得是不對的但是我們也不要一直在去對立我們希望兩岸和平為我們的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4283.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4302.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
是謝謝委員 委員我們還是要說我們尊重國會自治但是國會自治也不應該超越國家安全謝謝我們都不會超越剛才我們就說我們的國安為優先還有兩岸和平為目標是這個就是我們的主張 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝好 請李博弈委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4318.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4342.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
辛苦齁 有請邱主委好 請邱主委議員好趁民眾黨麥玉珍委員還沒走 容我提醒他齁剛剛的主張 其實台灣民眾黨在程序委員會的時候可以不用跟著國民黨一起在阻擋民進黨提的國安法案到這週一共422次 你們聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4348.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4374.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對不起有點激動其實立法委員的職責職權其實在他剛剛所唸的主張裡面其實在每一個禮拜的程序委員會他民眾黨都可以表達剛剛他們認為事前報備事後報備等等的主張讓程序委員會通過之後順利進到立法院的議事程序來審議來討論到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4376.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4397.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這幾個條例裡面包含兩岸人民關係條例強化特定人士赴中申報管理港澳條例強化特定人士赴港申報管理以及立法委員行違法他對這個敵對勢力有意見他對敵對勢力的定義就是說隔壁有一個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4398.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4420.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
每天派幾十架軍機飛越你的領空在你的領空周圍這樣繞來繞去甚至派軍艦甚至派他們的海警在我們的這個不管是澎湖、金門、馬祖甚至台海這些領域裡面這樣繞來繞去他不認為這是敵對勢力我覺得這個可以在立法院裡面討論他說因為敵對勢力所以有意見要退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4427.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4452.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們在這邊今天其實感謝張路昭委安排這個議程就是針對這幾個國安法令來提出來那我想針對這幾個法令目前提出來的包含第九條如果這個沒有修我請問一下陸委會我們知道現在每週或者是每個月有多少退降 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4452.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4461.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
他其實是領著退休金在中國自住行自由旅行我們有辦法統計嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4463.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4483.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
因為他們是如果說以退休的退降基本上是一般國民賦入不需要跟政府來因為他如果已經過了退職期的審核期間他就可以自由進出中國大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4483.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4505.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
對,那所以今天包含這個第九條第三跟第九條之三還有第二項的修法裡面就是我們希望把它規範到如果它在,它當然是沒有報備嘛但它如果它配合大陸地區具有統戰目的的行為的政治宣傳行為這個我們其實就要規範它,也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4508.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4534.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
如果你還是領著退休金嘛那你還是去中國旅遊嘛但是你有參加他的活動這個活動你當到退休將領了你當然知道這個是要統戰喔那你被拍出來就是做樣板喔那你能不能參加這個活動如果你參加這個活動在那邊聽訊聽著習大大的聽訊或者甚至跟他們唱他們的國歌等等的這一些我們是不是應該要規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4535.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4559.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
是當然所以我們支持委員的提案那包括這些特定的指標性人物不管是退將還是過去處理國安相關的這些退離職人員他們賦錄他們的言行更會影響這個兩岸的視聽如果是附和或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4561.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4589.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
完全講中國大陸對台的統戰的話的話當然會影響我們民心士氣所以這個地方的強化規管這個立法方針跟政策方向我們是支持的對所以我們要透過這個立法讓有一些人他其實他可能習慣長期習慣真的是在中國旅遊啊那在中國旅遊裡面比如說我10天到底有幾天是接受他們的哪一些單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4591.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4616.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
落地接待甚至有什麼餐飲食宿的招待甚至有更多的這些高規格的這些接待的我們要不要規範我們要啊這個我們可以去這個他原來服務的機關跟他們做這方面的勸導不過我們法律是針對一些特定行為比如說我們現行的法律對於這些退將去參加中國大陸黨政軍所舉辦的各種的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4620.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4637.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
典禮對於他的旗揮歌行李唱誦那有這個行為我們就會採取依法來處分對嘛你至少避一下嘛身為創華民國的退役將領這些退役將領的定義我們再把它更清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4638.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4652.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
包含承認國防外交大陸事務以及國家安全相關機關國家安全相關機關其實也包含貴單位陸委會那可能也包含調查局算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4653.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4668.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
未來都會被納入是的 算這些我這樣講其實都是中共高度想要滲透台灣國安相關單位的一些重要的這些單位而這一些退役人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4669.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4697.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
對於這些中共的這些人的價值就是他們了解台灣的國安情治系統如何運作如同我們的立法委員了解台灣的民主憲政如何維持也是中共很想要滲透的目標所以我們也支持立法委員赴中赴港必須要深最少不是法律而已最少要讓你的選民知道你去了中國見了誰你安排什麼行程合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4698.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4727.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
是委員剛剛說什麼這個電話局局長是不是所有的情報機關的首長包括現行法律是這樣那我們也支持把這些第九條之三的範圍把它擴大適用人更多以來確保他們的這個相關的行為符合國人的期待中共每天都在想著怎麼滲透啦所以我們法律要明定清楚保護我們所有國人的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4728.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4753.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
是 我們也是朝這個方向來修法 謝謝委員好 我們請張志倫委員好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請邱水正 邱主委好 請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4756.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4773.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
三位好好主委好今天是討論有關於這個兩岸關係條例的相關修法那當然是說有要討論說有關於要把這個適用範圍擴大及提高罰款以及如果這些退休將領或是工人 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4773.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4794.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
有去擔任中共黨職的部分也是一併要處以罰款以及未來可能附港會等於附中這樣的概念來進行討論跟修法那本席也樂見這樣子的一些討論不過我要先請教主委的一個部分就是說在最近監察院的調查報告有指出來在過去十年有318位的文職公務人員違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4798.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4823.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
或違規前往中國大陸包含55位的高階官、文官跟263位的基層的人員另外也有165件的警察人員的違規的案例那是因為警政署定期的清查而揭露那這樣子的顯示尤其在監察院的報告裡有顯示實際違規的人數可能更多代表就是說黑數可能比揭露的還更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4824.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4851.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那其實事實上在行政院其實在103年的時候就有召開會議就是有規定各機關附中應該要有抽查的制度那現在已經10年過去了除了警政署跟陸委會以外其他的這個各個機關其實沒有普遍的在執行這樣的動作所以我必須要說我們有相關的法令可是附中調查整個的機制我認為是有完全虛設這個而且機制完全失靈的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4852.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4875.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那我想要請教主委因為你本身在入委會也非常長的一段時間所以我相信這個你也有一定的責任那我請教說為什麼這樣的機制在監察院的報告裡面有明確指出其實現在機制是沒有辦法實行的那為什麼只有警政署跟入委會在實行是不是可以請主委回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4875.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4897.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好 謝謝委員關鍵這個議題 我們也很關注那麼多人覆錄沒有完成他請假的手續事實上我們對於11指等以下的或是警官4階以下的覆錄必須要向原服務機關進行請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4900.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4920.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那在11值等以上的 那麼附入就要經過內政部的許可沒錯 一個是依照法令嘛 內政部許可 一個是依照內部內規嘛那我只要請教主委 為什麼過去這十幾年來執行率那麼差我們其實有相關的法令 可是執行率很差那我們現在也要討論就是修法 把範圍再更擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4920.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4935.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
可是如果執行上不利的話 那修法的目的在哪裡是 謝謝委員給我們這個說明的機會我們是支持修法 可是你要如何執行過去它只有一個機制 有一個執法那麼用一般的人事管理來處理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4937.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4960.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
實質等以下的基層同仁前往包括連假日他們也可以自己前往中國大陸或是港澳那這個部分都沒有相關的機制那只是只有一個機制那所以各個機關恐怕沒有那麼的來遵守所以委員體的問題我們很重視未來我們看能不能有一個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4961.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4976.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這修法把所有的公職人員都納入包括這個基層同仁他們一定要沒有我了解主委就是說現在有相關法律沒有法律的就是十一職等以上有法律十一職等以下是內規所以就是說剛剛監察院的報告裡面有顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4979.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4997.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
大家遵守的不一致嘛有些人有些機關有在這也是我們修法的方向剛剛委員所說的我們所以你們現在有內部已經有在討論部會的修法什麼時候會提出來我們正在演繹也跟各機關在商量取得共識之後所以我們很快就把它推出來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4999.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5016.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
過去十年已經執行不力了所以拜託主委不要說有些人被懲罰有些人沒有被懲罰有些機關有在做有些機關沒有在做監察院報告已經很明確的跟你報告這件事情了那第二個我要特別講的就是說現在遇到第二個狀況高階公務人員跟基層的處罰不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5018.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5033.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
在監察院報告也明確指出53位違法附中的高階公務員員已給內政部依照兩岸人民關係條例等等相關法令做處罰可是他們沒有受到任何的行政處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5034.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5042.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
只有連履歷記存都沒有就等於說他的履歷上完全沒有這樣的記錄那反觀263個違規的基層人員多半受到記過懲處甚至處罰到大過然後是依照考積法第二條這個的原則來去做處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5052.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5077.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那我想要請問怎麼會有這種高官罰錢的老師精神要記過處罰這樣的雙重標準是 謝謝委員您提出這個非常重要這個有關於所謂的高官可能是在學校裡面任職行政人員比如大學裡面任職系主任所長或院長他們好像就是比照十二指等 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5078.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5100.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以這些人因為學校也比較自由不過我們也要求教育部要跟學校講好要完成各種的請假跟許可的程序未來處罰的原則會是一致的嗎會 因為我們立法之後啊為什麼 因為現在基層人員就說為什麼只有高官沒有被只有罰錢那他們基層人員都被制過 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5102.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5121.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
跟委員報告現在的規定是不是有雙重標準這個可能是學校的部分可能要持續的要求啦如果是一般的對 照主委的講法現在就是有雙重標準嘛是不是要改善這個我們會努力好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5123.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5149.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以監察院的報告的確有說現在就是內政部是不是有要建立一個統一的處理機制不要因為職等不同而出現不同的懲罰情形我們應該未來修法要來非常清楚的一個規範好那接下來我還是要跟主委報告我希望說這次提高的罰環的上限不要是說表面強化處罰力道最後違規者只用罰錢來做處理那我還要請問主委的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5150.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5168.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那現在我們在討論修法 公務員附中後實際的行程跟活動 陸委會是不是可以確實來掌握那如果沒辦法掌握的話 你如何依照查證的相關資料來做違規的處罰是不是可以請主委來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5169.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5185.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
是 如果是要連省會的比較沒有問題他要提出完整的行程還有附入的目的然後我們也可以提醒他很多的風險那這部分我想我們的移民署還有相關部會的同仁都把關的很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5185.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5203.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
就是需要內政部許可這一塊我們會來進一步的要求那麼您剛才也說它的形成它的具體資料到底它在大陸做了什麼事情你們要不要處罰現在你們過去的處罰因為都沒有相關資料嘛所以你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5204.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5205.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
會不會取得有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5224.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5245.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
應該是不會啦好那最後我要跟主委報告我希望這次的修法是補制度的缺口我們都支持方向也沒有問題可是我們要知道說執行才是關鍵不能說申請的不申請該查的不查出了問題也沒有人負責這樣的管理我們認為會是失靈的那條文不夠是不是條文不夠還是制度沒有在執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5246.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5263.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那我們希望說如果修法過了行政部門應該要依法行政不能只是讓公文多幾頁問題還是留著那我要最後請教主委一個問題我也是之前一直在請教的就是有關於這個台灣的藝人相關的一些查核的問題其實當時陸委會跟文化部在3月7號就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5264.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5286.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
跨部會去做協助來去做處理喔那你在5月15號也提說現在未來可能會調查21個藝人20幾個藝人左右那現在已經5月29號了請問到底什麼時候會有一個一個進度所以我們希望說這個到底你的制度要怎麼來做你的執行要如何執行這是我最後的問題 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5288.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5308.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
謝謝張委員包括你講那個未來我們如果掌握公務員附路的這些動態資訊我們進一步來加強那有關不管是藝人藝人我已經問了第三次了對 謝謝這個我們跟主管機關文化部都有密切的討論主委你回答也是第三次同樣的問題那對進行必要的查處 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5311.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5334.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
那我們最主要的問題剛剛也有委員提到他所發表的言論確實是在消滅中華民國主權或者是呼應對岸軍演威脅台灣那有這些言論又是在同一個時刻去發送我們認為這不是自發行為極可能是背後黨政軍的一個合作行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5335.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5355.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
但是這是依法我們要進行查處所以行政的查處我們會跟文化部一起來進行那都在進行當中那麼有具體的這個成果也會跟社會來報告好 主委這是我第三次問你希望下次問你的時候有一個比較清楚的答案好嗎謝謝 謝謝張委員謝謝好 請王美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5369.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5388.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
主席 大家 主委主委你要先喝一個茶嗎先喝一杯謝謝王委員 謝謝先說 主委我們是要延續我們前董事長跟你們說藝人的問題是因為我覺得外面有覺得說你們中央移民署要打壓藝人 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5396.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5403.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
藝人啊 因為我覺得藝人一看錢是天經地義的事情啊尤其在台灣的人 到中國的時候 他要唱歌 他要表演 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5412.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5414.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們都沒有反對,有時候,難道在他的規定當中,他的傳播的問題當中,有損害到中華民國的台灣?這就很嚴重了,不是說你在抵押什麼藝人不可以去對,你看很多藝人,是怎麼偏偏有這幾個人,都在說中華民國的不是, |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5440.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5442.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以在這個過程當中,有的人說,你們想過後一天,要讓中華民國的新聞局的國籍出銷掉讓大家覺得說,有這麼嚴重嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5459.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5461.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那是非常嚴重,像本身提出這個案件時,在一兩星期前,去到宴會時,讓國民黨擁護他之後,這個案件就沒了,不然我認為這對中華民國的台灣,非常重要這個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5483.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5489.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以我又再次鼓勵,也感謝我們的張宏祿召委派這個給大家,可以透露,可以擔任來保護我們中華民國的國安、人民條例,可以更加健全所以在這裡面,我看到說,如果你們認真做,再說你們的檔案 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5512.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5513.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
藝界的人,我也覺得很難過,藝界的人,有時候真的很不愛中華民國的台灣,說到他很逞強的,我是中國人,那是非常不應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5530.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5533.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所以主委,在這裏面剛才你報告說,本省會提案,你要認同要認同當中,我到現在沒看到你們的行政院,你們的案,可以去參考說,怎樣才好 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5552.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5554.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這是非常嚴重,你看剛才我們的國民黨的委員也說這也同意,也高興國民黨受到保護,還有這樣的問題他們知道這麼嚴重,所以本身剛才剛才說到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5572.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5575.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
您是有什麼要補充嗎?來請主委講講也包括我們好多的提案也包括我們草野的委員都支持這方面的修法就我們行政院的版本我們是在積極的在研議不過因為它還在行政程序目前還不方便對外說明不過我想很快 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5596.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5618.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
就會來跟委員報告我們行政院版本不過委員剛剛說到我們絕對不是對藝人有歧視或懲罰絕對沒有這回事我們完全是依法那麼也對於我們有些藝人可能受到中共的這些政治脅迫逼他們做政治表態 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5619.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5627.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以我們也在了解這是不是他講出消滅我們國家主權地位或者是附和他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5629.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5646.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
軍演的這些威嚇的這些圖卡在短短的時間一起這麼做我想不是自發行為沒有人會相信這是自發行為而是合作的行為當然我們還是要經過查處我們是一個民主法治國家一定要有一個查處的過程我們會在查處的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5649.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5671.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
除了從管理面去了解真相之外另外我們也會關懷他們在中國大陸是不是有很多的政治脅迫一定要講這些話才能生存如果他真的在中國大陸生存不易的話他應該可能考慮回來台灣發展我們的文化部也有很多的計畫所以我們對 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5673.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5677.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
藝人並不是說去打壓藝人這個政府沒有打壓藝人我們關懷他是他做得不好不愛這個國家所演繹的在這裡主委本身要跟你說的就是說你剛才的解說也很清楚你不是在打壓這裡的藝人因為在這個過程當中我們今天可以大家討論這裡的條款說實在很簡單在程序委員會裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5703.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5707.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們已經放棄四百二十年了所以這是非常關鍵、要緊的事情所以你說 不可以說跟我們的國監來處理這個國監我們腳步一定不會裁判的所以說本身跟你提起這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5724.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5726.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
實質黨家要去到大陸 中國的時候要報備 要有你們的思考的心我認為這是最重要的因為女國家的錢 女國家的體育金是如何要報備不然她們要報備 她的體育金不要拿去中國拿啊你要中華民國的體育金 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5750.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5752.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我現在在美國的心碎的公告令完沒有人這樣啦所以主委本席有提案的時候在這個時候為了國家的安全為了國家的好尤其我們要保護民主自由的國家你們要認真去看這個條款以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5773.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5784.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
對於軍公教人員對國家有忠誠義務我們都會加強來管理也透過立法來修正好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝好請環節委員好謝謝主席我們請主委好請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5797.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5812.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
黃委員好好今天在這邊我其實非常的遺憾因為今天我們審查這個兩岸條例跟港澳條例沒有我的版本為什麼沒有我的版本我本來很期待今天可以來提案說明因為我針對兩岸條例提出了四個版本以上的修法但是沒有一條可以送進委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5818.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5827.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
因為全部都被藍白附議了全部都被藍白在程序委員會就擋掉了我提了什麼光是這個立委附中我們很多立委都有提版本但在程序委員會就被擋了422次啊所以剛剛民眾黨的麥玉珍委員還在說什麼他們也要提一個許可制的版本在此之前先不要擋別人的版本吧不要在這邊打假球吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5845.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5849.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
真的有心要捍衛國安來這裡討論嘛來這裡討論嘛到現在連我的版本都送不進來所以我在這邊也是覺得很遺憾啊我提了除了這個立委附中之外我還有提這個如果是雙重國籍要任公職的話解職應該要繳還薪資的這個條例就是針對當初南投的這個石雪燕議員像這樣子中國籍的台灣議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5870.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5893.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那這種如果已經被解職了是不是應該要繳還薪資那甚至是如果中港澳的人士如果入籍台灣之後他想要參選台灣的公職甚至是參選台灣的立委的話應該要附上他的放棄國籍的證明才行我認為這個都是基本的程序啊其他的外籍人士來台灣參選公職都是照這樣的程序中國籍更應該要這樣做啊結果被擋掉了被擋掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5897.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5899.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那甚至說這個吳斯懷條款就更不用說了我提的是什麼應該要加大範圍包括說如果你退休的少將退休的上將要帶一堆退休的這種少將上將去中國可不可以當然是不行嘛因為現在就看起來有包括什麼海軍的退役少將 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5916.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5939.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
还有前立委罗志明等等涉嫌引戒高达48位退将赴中然后替中共来行这个收集情收还有行统战之实这个都是目前都还在调查当中嘛那还有包括说这个退役的上将夏英洲到中国之后在中国的论坛说今后不要分国军共军我们都是中国军 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5940.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5966.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
後來他還接受環球時報的訪問說解放軍的戰機出現在台灣島的上空是在自己的國土上有權去巡邏這個都是台灣的退役的這些將領上將到少將在中國講的話難道這些不用去管嗎不用去規範嗎結果全部都被藍白在程序委員會擋掉了我真的覺得非常的遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5967.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5974.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
今天在這邊審這個兩岸條例如果大家都有共識覺得國安很重要的話就應該要把這些條例放進來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5976.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5991.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
好那因為沒有我的版本所以我在這邊除了說呼籲把我自己的版本講給大家聽希望大家都能認同之外我再來問一下最近發生的事情喔前兩天被稱為習近平國師的這個復旦大學的教授張維為他說台灣的年輕人因為喜歡小紅書所以如果統一之後治理台灣會比香港容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6001.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6003.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我不知道主委聽到這句話對於像小紅書這樣子的社群平台有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6008.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6036.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我想這也是第一次中國大陸有學者把這類的中國大陸在台灣非常流行的這個APP跟統一把它掛勾在一起把它聯繫起來那如果是這樣的話這些包括抖音 包括小紅書是不是也是在落實對台的這個統一也是為了統一在做準備那這樣的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6036.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6061.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我想我們使用這些小紅書或者是抖音這些中國大陸這些非常著名的這些好用的軟體恐怕都要提高警覺至少我們也呼籲各級學校應該對於使用這類的APP應該要有一個試讀方面的提醒跟教育的推廣知道使用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6062.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6067.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
會對有什麼樣的一種問題存在比如說包括對於你個資的影響容易個資被對岸利用之外他也在置入很多的統一的這些在你們的定義裡小紅書這樣子的社群平台是統戰工具嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6084.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6100.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我們一直有這個高度的懷疑啦但是我們也希望我們趕快有一個網路主管機關可以去調查去清理這些很多國人的疑問我們發現太多這個涉及 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6101.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6118.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
統一的聲音或者是武統的聲音還有毀棄我們中華民國主權地位的聲音甚至要毀損我們作為自由民主憲政國家的好多聲音都在這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6119.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6135.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
好謝謝主委主委講的比較保守啦其實很多的研究中都已經非常明確的定義類似像小紅書抖音這樣的平台對於中共來說很明顯就已經是一個統戰的利器了嘛他就是一個統戰的工具了嘛甚至現在都這個張維為也說了因為台灣的年輕人喜歡小紅書所以統一台灣之後比香港還容易治理耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6144.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6153.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這件事情這樣子明確的講出來難道不用預防嗎這絕對要我們高度警惕沒錯所以我這邊希望陸委會針對這樣的社群平台上面都在流竄什麼訊息然後針對哪一些群體喜歡使用這樣的平台會不會受到這個資訊戰認知作戰的侵擾這個你們都應該要去加強的了解而不是在這邊說高度懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6171.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6194.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這種時候還在高度懷疑會不會有點太慢了是了解我們跟相關主管機關一直在討論這個問題那我想進一步的從法治面去歸管它已經到達非常至少做到揭露嘛是相關的該揭露的至少要揭露嘛給大家警惕這個是必要的好嗎是了解好謝謝謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6199.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6201.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好 我們請高津市委員謝謝主席有請我們的邱主委好 請主委高津委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6223.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6246.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
今年的3月13號賴清德總統他宣布說中國是境外敵對勢力之後的這兩個月當中呢國安法的修法被提出來了那今天呢港澳關係條例還有兩岸人民關係條例的修法也提出來了從民進黨立法委員們所提出來的修法版本裡面我們可以看到一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6247.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6274.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
以國家安全為名然後把法條徵修的越來越嚴罰款越來越高管制的人員還有範圍也越來越寬看來呢民進黨你們是要把14億人口的中國都定義成境外敵對勢力而並不是為了對付敵人而是為了那個把 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6275.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6297.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們的政治思考和民進黨政府不同的台灣人民變成敵人變成通敵的中共同路人那麼今天我們在內政委員會裡面要討論修法行政院和上一次我們在這邊審的國安法的時候他一直都沒有提出版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6299.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6307.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
既然周主委你說這是賴總統他的指示你們新政院是不是應該有版本請問一下陸委會有沒有版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6308.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6331.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
跟委員報告有關於落實17項的因應策略修法也是一個我們強化法制作業重要的一個環節為什麼行政院跟相關部門一直都沒有版本都是立法委員的版本請你回答我們是跟委員報告我們現在還在整個作業當中所以行政院跟你會提出版本囉會 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6332.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6351.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我們會提出兩岸條例的版本你對於現在民進黨立委所提出來的修法版本你有什麼看法我想他們都是在強化民主防衛機制目的還是希望能夠守護我們在台灣自由民主的生活方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6353.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6373.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那有关于他们提出这些其实跟我们的立场态度是为了这个减少在受到因为跟中国大陆交流所引发这个统战渗透分化的影响我以为你是国安局你是陆委会好了既然你这么讲那我就请问你 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6374.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6395.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這次有關兩岸人民關係條例的修法版本裡面邱志偉委員的版本他修了第九條的第十項他在台灣地區人民進入大陸地區者不得從事妨害國家安全或利益的活動的這個條文後面增加了亦不得配合複合大陸地區的黨務軍事行政或具政治性機構團體而 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6398.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6418.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
發表危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容這個危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序之內容到底是什麼呢我才疏學淺請問一下你能不能具體的告訴大家到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6419.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6433.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好,我想韋瑩的目的,她還是在避免中共利用我們台灣沒有,我說危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序比如說消滅中華民國主權這個已經是在法條裡面了嘛我知道,比如說在消滅中華民國主權 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6440.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6458.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
好 光是發表這樣的講話就能夠危害中華民國了嗎中華民國什麼時候變得那麼沒有自信 那麼脆弱呢我們看一下股吹武統台灣股吹用武力的方式來侵略台灣像這些嘴巴講就可以啊來看一下蔡英文總統她之前也是陸委會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6467.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6487.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
2000年8月4號他說陸委會主委蔡英文表示台灣無法逃避一個中國的問題從文化地理來看未來的一個中國是台灣民眾唯一的選擇蔡英文表示一個中國是我們必須面對的問題台灣沒有空間跟可能性去逃避一個中國的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6488.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6502.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
陳水扁所提的九二精神最重要的特質就是交流、對話、擱置爭議。若中國大陸覺得九二年所發生的事情對雙方的關係是重大而有意義的,我們願意朝這個方向來解釋或考慮。他說,被擱置的爭議總是有一天會被解決的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6511.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6516.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
如果交流對話是成功的話,外在的客觀環境會改變,一個中國的問題的解決就相對變得簡單蔡英文認為,無論是統一、台獨或維持現狀,台灣人民只有一個選擇,那就是未來的一個中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6532.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6559.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
他指出 台灣除了少數原住民之外 就是我啦大部分都是從中國大陸移民而來的雖然現在在你們的口中這些人叫做其餘人雖然台灣是一個開放性的多元文化但中國文化仍然是核心這是當時的陸委會主委也是我們前總統蔡英文她說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6559.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6585.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
然後我們再來看一下你們現在沒有自信到什麼程度呢你們除了在法條上規範之外呢你還要罰款如果這些人講了這些話你要處台幣一萬五千塊以上五萬元以下然後要按次處罰我要再請問一下主委這個第九條第十項提到的台灣地區人民指的是台灣地區的所有人民對吧是的好 照你說立法委員 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6590.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6597.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
你們讓我看前天梁副主委不是說嗎樂見立法委員和民間在兩岸之間交換意見那要怎麼樣的兩岸交流才不會危害中華民國存在或變更自由民主憲政秩序呢立法可以這麼抽象的我希望你們提出來的立法不要那麼抽象好不好我要再講的是這樣的法條一旦修出來從此之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6618.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6626.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
台灣人民在大陸的一言一行都要被政府檢驗連我們的思想都要被你們檢驗一旦政府認為有問題呢 我們的人民只要一下飛機到了我們的台灣 就要等著收罰單 是不是我看啊 孫主委你也別講太多了 我時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6641.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6643.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
與其把台灣搞得這麼豐盛鶴立 不如乾脆停止ECFA然後呢 全面的斷行什麼立法委員啊 民間人士的交流也不必了啦台灣那就等著我們賴清德總統說的大公司跟小公司的併購會議上 我們再一起談 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6665.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6676.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我認為很奇怪了你們你們既要享受ECFA的好處然後又要恐嚇懲罰創造好處的台商和人民然後把大家認為人心狂我還沒向你說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6679.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6693.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
你們這段時間的做法還不恐嚇人民啊讓得大家人心惶惶的這樣你們很開心了是不是你們民進黨啊真的是一代不如一代我記得以前徐新娘前輩也是以前民進黨的主席曾經說過大膽西進 越馬中原這樣的大氣魄已經不見了而現在的民進黨只剩下什麼只剩下會欺負台灣人民啊民進黨你們真是墮落 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6708.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6717.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
這不是事實委員我們不接受這樣的事實好謝謝我們請徐宇貞委員謝謝主席我們請邱主委好請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6738.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6759.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
主委 針對陸委會在報告的第二頁提到說為避免中共利用台灣民眾發表矮化我方主權等相關爭議的言行混淆我國認同以稅請其侵略並吞台灣之政治目的本提案有助於維護我國主權與尊嚴所以陸委會予以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6760.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6780.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
主委既然你這邊要談矮化跟談尊嚴我們今天就再來探討一下賴清德總統說的大公司的併購說上次在質詢的時候我請教過您賴總統說的中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果大公司要併購小公司大陸應該要提條件不是台灣來提條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6782.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6787.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
像是主委您是請我不要過度延伸總統的話那今天我們就從字面上來討論我要很嚴肅的請教主委為什麼我們的總統要公開宣稱台灣是比較小的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6797.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6813.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
國家元首在國際跟全民之前用小來形容自己的國家地位這難道不是自我矮化嗎難道國家的主權還有大小之分嗎難道這樣的說法不是在傷害台灣的主權跟尊嚴嗎請主委回答委員我還是要強調兩岸的互動不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6820.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6849.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
不然是創設一個我們無法接受的前提然後拔不交流是說併購這兩個字嗎不是你不能說你一定要接受我一中原則的九二共識你必須要先接受我們要先接受台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分總統說的併購說你同意嗎他說我們是小公司兩個互動要對等尊嚴相互尊重那請問一下他說我們自己是小公司這樣有沒有矮化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6850.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6876.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
他只是做一個兩岸在互動的時候你不要設置我們無法接受的前提那這個前提就是要求台灣變成地方政府台灣成為中華民共和國的一部分所以面對主權的時候我們是寸步都不能退讓不該有這種小公司的比喻不管是用什麼比喻我覺得用這樣來形容自己這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6878.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6885.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
呃 自貶式的一個角色的一個敘述我覺得又不是一個國家的元首那賴總統是甚麼意思那請您解釋一下好 主委我跟您不是 主委那我們給你30秒請您解釋賴總統說的這個小公司是甚麼意思我給你30秒的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6899.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6908.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
兩岸互動應該要秉持著對等尊嚴 相互尊重這只是在做兩岸互動的比喻 不用過度的延伸不是過度的延伸 我現在在請教你 你也講不出來家居在我們那種前提 我們可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6920.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6927.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我跟委員報告 我每次在做民調 一年以來有七成以上的民眾不贊成台灣接受中國大陸不合理的政治檢諜我沒有惱羞成怒 我只是說兩岸的互動 應該要對等尊嚴 相互尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6941.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6961.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他應該要正視中華民國客觀存在的事實我一直問你我們總統說的這個小公司什麼意思你都不敢正面回答代表你就知道這樣的敘述是不對的這樣有自我矮化的一個問題所以你一直不敢正面回答我一直在扯東扯西的而且我跟你講不用過度的解讀跟區別如果今天這些話 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6962.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6982.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
是國際媒體還有對岸的媒體來引用賴總統說的小公司的言論大作文章請問我們要怎麼澄清我跟國際媒體講這個他們就聽得懂你跟他互動就是要對等尊嚴不必要相互尊重你不要拿一個我們無法接受的前提自我矮化的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6983.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6997.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
你也無法嗎?你不要設置一個我們無法接受的前提嘛然後把所有的無法交流互動塞給你我們不接受就用軍機艦島來威嚇我們因為要你去反駁賴總統說的話這也是為難你啦那當然今天的修法就有人提議嘛就是我們要政務副首長以上檢任13職以上的人員還有中校以上的軍官各級公立學校校長不得參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7013.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7028.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
大陸地區的黨政軍活動否則可能違反妨礙國家尊嚴那你們也支持修法的方向請問主委所謂妨礙國家尊嚴這是法律明文定義的概念還是行政機關主觀判定的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7030.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7052.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們對於委員為了強化我們民主機制為了減少對跟中國大陸被他滲透統戰分化那麼訂了這些法律那我們也有強調由於有限制民眾的這些言論或是表意的這些所以反對國家尊嚴有法律明文的定義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7053.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7077.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
部分我如果說進入到法律實質的部分我們願意坐下來再來斟酌自言就是一個主觀判定嘛那也就是說如果在活動上奏大陸的國歌我們代表就是尊重主辦方的國際禮儀然後站起來的話這樣會不會說是配合統戰跟委員報告我們現行的法律還不是修法對於中國大陸黨政軍舉辦的國家慶典 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7080.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7103.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們的如果退帳或是我們的像規範的這些國家安全的這些機關的這些副首長以上的人去參加這個活動未經許可去參加這個活動對他的旗揮歌的行李唱誦行李唱誦都是違法的要依法處分這個是目前的法律規定違反什麼法 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7104.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7107.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
委員把兩條列計及有條之三好 那我現在請教您一下喔2026年APEC峰會將會由中國主辦屆時我們一定要派官員去參加那開幕式會奏中國的國歌我們的官員是應該要站起來還是應該要繼續做委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7121.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7138.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
這個都是經過政府核准的我們剛剛講那個是未經許可的所以說參加APEC峰會的人我們到大陸去的話只要他這個站起來這個唱國歌唱中國的國歌站起來的時候是沒有問題我想我們的我們每次到中國大陸參加這個國際會議都有一定的這個規範基本上他會有一個適當的這個表達這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7149.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7159.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那同時他們是受到政府同意前往所以不受到你剛剛所說的第九條之殺的那種事件那不好意思主席再給我三十秒因為我給邱主委很多的時間回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7164.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7183.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
最後再問您一個問題就是我們台灣在2010年的上海市博會跟2015年的米蘭市博會都有設置台灣館那儘管地緣政治的壓力存在我們依舊能夠在國際舞台上保有主體性跟名稱的尊嚴但是在今年日本大阪所舉辦的這個市博會 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7185.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7211.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們卻只能用Tech World科技館的名義參加連台灣館三個字都消失了這樣的退讓與隱身不僅是對我國主權性的自我切割也是對我們人民的這個雙重背叛更離譜的是根據中央社的報導這個是日本共同社引述知情人士指出是日本外務省的中國的要求向我方施壓要求不得冠名台灣主委請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7212.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7231.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這樣是不是中國對我國的民意的打壓這樣是不是配合中國的行為如果說連台灣管三個字都不敢說那還是台灣政府嗎那也不是贊重了對岸去台灣化的這個下懷而且這個就叫維護國家尊嚴嗎所以如果這樣子的話那你覺得我們是不是應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7232.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7245.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
要處罰經濟部因為他算不算配合統戰我想我們要譴責的是中共對台灣的外交打壓無所不用其極這個只會讓台灣人那我們自己是不是應該堅守自己的這個尊嚴呢否則為什麼2010的世博會可以2015的米蘭世博會也可以唯獨2025的這個世博會卻不行而且我方也接受了 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7259.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7286.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們可以不要去設啊 既然矮化我們 不讓我們設台灣館 我們也可以不要去設啊所以連自己國家的名字都不敢說出口的政府喔我覺得有什麼資格去處罰台灣人民 有什麼資格去處罰所謂的我們的一些在台灣的演藝人員 說他們不夠愛國所以請你們從這個大阪的這個科技館的名字開始 先處罰我們還是要譴責中共對台灣的打壓我覺得要先從自己做起 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7291.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7292.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好 我們請劉許廷常委謝謝主席 邱主委要不要喝口水還可以嗎 好 那就麻煩你了好 請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7309.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7338.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
謝謝牛委員主委早安辛苦了今天從兩個角度探討一下今天有關法案審查今天進行詢答第一個本席想要就教的是有關於制度的明確性跟立法時大家的溝通責任就是說現在我們有很多民進黨的同事提出了兩岸人民關係條例港澳關係條例等等一些修正草案那請問現在陸委會這邊是不是會有院版這樣子的一個方案作為對照參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7338.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7352.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
是跟委員報告我們為了落實17項的因應策略那我們有負責除了行政方面的這個措施之外修法包括兩條例我們也會提願版 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7355.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7378.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
會有願板?那你有時間表嗎?時間表就是我們的整個行政作業目前還在作業過程當中所以今天還不方便你現在是朝你的階段研究的階段還是抱怨神?因為你們先達成共識然後抱行政院核定,願會核定之後才會送立法願嗎?對對對那現在走到哪裡了?現在走到在行政院了已經寫完了喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7378.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7404.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
在行政院所以就表示你們內容但是還在討論當中因為整個程序還沒做完我之所以會去提願板的必要性是因為我想不管是行政端或立法委員在修正任何法案的時候他其實都要有清楚大家都要擔負論述跟溝通的一個責任以現在這幾個版本來講雖然你在你的報告裡面你都講說你支持這樣的一個修法方向可是其實你在你的內容裡面你就有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7405.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7431.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這樣子的一個法律修正涉及對於人民言論及表意範疇的限制文字屬不確定法律概念為了注意兼顧民眾基本權益之保護使民眾可以預見相關規範內涵行政機關得以認定及執行以及司法審查時得以確認相關的規範要進一步研議是嘛對不對所以表示說如果今天照本來委員的版本照案通過其實是有一些危險性的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7431.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7453.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因為他其實講的並不清楚對不對對 就是那個法律過程的要件我們還是要再明確一點簡單來說就是法律明確性原則嘛這不管是之前的國安法的審查或是今天兩岸關係兩岸人民關係條例的一個審查那條紅線要畫在哪裡他其實應該是越清楚越好嘛是的你才會讓大家知道那條紅線明確嘛而不會造成說法律有可能變成有濫用的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7454.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7481.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那既然你院版其實已經起草了差不多了只是還沒有定案對不對那為什麼你不在報告裡面清楚的去續明就是說怎麼樣去寫這個規範是比較清楚的呢你只有跟他講說他的不清楚但你卻沒有講怎麼樣比較清楚你是不是要在這邊做一下補充的說明是委員我們設計的這個未來的我們院版他是以落實17項的相關的這些因應策略為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7482.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7508.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那我們設計的方向可能跟今天的提案委員的組織未必完全一致但是我們今天提案委員他很多就是民主防衛機制我們都有認同你說未必跟現在委員提案的版本一致是強度上的不一致還是方向上的不一致就是規範的那些內容或是規範的一些所以連方向上可能都有不一致嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7511.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7527.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
立法的態度就是當然要很嚴謹那今天委員這邊提的案子剛剛委員有很多他們想提案子沒有被提出來還在這個程序委員會我問你嘛 程序委會但是我們的案子是 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7528.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7543.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
以落實賴總統所提出實施這樣的因應策略為主的那些規管措施我今天要提這一段就是因為在立法的時候其實從答詢開始它就是一個溝通的開始如果你今天報告只是講它的東西不明確但你沒有明確的講出那應該是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7544.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7569.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那其實某一些層面會變成原地踏步跟委員報告既然有願版願版出來我們也會去跟委員來報告我們的一些理念的設計跟提案的一些我想這部分尤其是法律明確性是本席比較要求的因為你看像之前有修正幾次包含國安法等等其實都出現大量起訴但最後被判的比例並沒有那麼高嘛對不對但是任何一個人他一旦被起訴被偵查被偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7570.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7598.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
他可能在社會上被貼標籤受到一定的衝擊形象的打擊等等到最後可能是沒事那你是不是其實某一些層面來講就要傷及無辜所以你在法律立法的設計的技術上跟品質上本來就要從前端要嚴格把關我希望這樣的法案修正當然大家都希望國家安全為重但是問題就是說討論的過程你不能不理性嘛你不能不嚴謹好不好這是我要提醒的謝謝謝謝委員第二個就是順著往下講叫做社會現在的氛圍對於理性討論這件事情的影響這 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7600.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7623.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
主委喔 雖然你一下都是兩岸關係的主管機關本來應該是要希望大家可以合理的來交流對談等等但是現在好像大家在問你的時候都在問要怎麼防備啊 怎麼三管五卡啊那當然就是因為氛圍不好嘛現在氛圍要萬事皆統戰 輕鳥說了算欸這主委你最近有沒有看新聞有一個人在路上應該是直播還是在拍影片就有一個人跑進來說什麼六四天安門 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7625.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7646.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
然後那個拍攝會講 幹嘛 我是台灣人欸就鬧了一個烏龍為什麼發生這個事 主委你知道嗎來 請說明因為網路上現在很多青鳥在講說現在我們已經被滲透了很多人都用直播什麼在偷拍我們的設施所以大家要挺身而出去阻擋這些人然後變得現在任何人包含前面之前也有個是拍 他喜歡拍馬路路口 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7647.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7676.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
他就喜歡拍他說那是無意義的照片但他喜歡蒐集這樣的照片結果就被人家就被人家盤問被人家阻止就出現很多這樣的事情金明聯要去借北港朝天北港媽祖廟前面的這個北港證供所申請入權但因為要辦廟會北港的廟要辦廟會所以證供所表示說可不可以喬別的時間結果網路上親鳥就講北港媽祖被中共統戰現在到處都是這樣的一個聲音主委你有沒有觀察到這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7678.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7704.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝委員當然這個我們的國人開始重視國安開始對於中共對台的滲透統戰開始關注包括像有許多招攬我們的年輕朋友復路去交流參加比賽人人有獎像這些統戰的活動國人過去可能都沒有那麼多的關心那現在打電話到路我會都蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7706.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7730.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
主委我要講這些故事的原因就是說社會現在焦慮而且這個焦慮我認為已經超出了理性的範疇嘛因為你現在在路上拍個入口都被人家盤問對不對這是很奇怪的事嘛你在那邊開個直播被人家跑進來亂入對不對這是不太好的狀況但是他只有澄清的話就得到一些理解對我現在講的意思就是說即便有這樣的氛圍大家在討論立法的時候還是要有理性不能被這樣的東西牽著走 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7731.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7755.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我非常贊成應該要在理性的環境下來推動我們是在野黨你們是執政黨所以至少我們在應該要理性的討論然後要講道理這件事情我們要達成實質的共識對不對我們強化社會溝通爭取共識這個是我們職責所在也謝謝委員長我之所以講說我們一定要秉持理性討論的原因就是因為如果我們連執政當局如果連這條線都要配合焦慮情緒然後亂畫一通的話會出事 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7759.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7778.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
比如說有幾個版本講說有任何這個矮化國家的意圖對不對矮化國家的這樣相關的言論或配合大陸地區有統戰目的的政治宣傳行為等等他現在未來就要列入你的防守範圍就要開罰對不對剛剛很多人都問那賴清德總統的併購論那都算不算某一種層面的矮化呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7781.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7796.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
統戰如果是由大家說的算對不對和平談判促成統一它一定也是統戰的一環法委員那個不要過度的去解讀啦我們說兩岸的互動應該要對等尊嚴相互尊重啦我今天不是要跟你吵架我就是要提醒你這個事就是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7797.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7816.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
統戰這也是很模糊的概念很模糊的概念的時候大家就講說你只要坐下來談很多人也講是統戰你去參加交流去參加比賽他也講你統戰你去觀光他也講你是統戰你在路口拍照他都講你是統戰在這樣的一個情況之下如果我們的法律去寫說任何有相關的行為都都要受罰那是不是會變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7817.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7844.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
變了一個很奇怪的狀況我們也跟委員一樣看法對言論跟表意的範疇要比較審慎如果言論跟表意都要在這次的立法被管制的話那賴清德總統的併購論絕對會第一個拿出來被挑戰因為併購你當然講你講的是我們要有條件要有前提可是講說大公司併小公司第一我們被併第二如果要提條件表示要談判那豈不是說要透過談判的方式解決兩岸問題嗎這是賴總統的官方立場是陸委會的官方立場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7847.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7871.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
真的委員對這個議題就不要過度解讀我們只是說兩岸在互動的時候還是要秉持著你要正視我的存在我們要對等尊嚴相互尊重我都願意多聽主委講幾句我也希望大家在立法過程中不要被太過焦慮的社會氛圍你反而執政黨有的時候也要稍微平衡一下這樣的社會氛圍而不是放任這樣的東西到最後用情緒我們會理性溝通爭取共識爭取共識好不好多花一點時間嚴肅討論可以嗎是謝謝你委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7878.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7879.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好 請吳清明委員好 三位 一位同仁請我們陸委會主委 邱主委好 請主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7897.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7908.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
委員好 今天審查大陸第七人民關係條例及香港澳門的關係條例那我們都知道其實現在的社會有很多 不管說他的宗教跟公職人員在我們內政部建構的一個資訊的透明化包含在中國大陸一定要透過來登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7923.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7943.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
整個登錄的案件還是非常少只有本席這邊的資料只有250件是不是指委你有掌握到我們未來要怎樣讓我們所有到對岸做交流大家都能透明化這就是我們的陸委會這邊要多加的宣導包含透過我們媒體來做宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7949.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7957.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我們到對岸的不管是任何的交流大家這個自信還是要透明化這有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7958.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7980.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
是 謝謝委員 這是我們努力的目標有關於揭露婦女交流的資訊我們現在包括內政部都在呼籲包括宗教各個社團踴躍登陸昨天我們開委員會議的時候我們也做成了希望各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7982.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8011.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
就他所屬的工協會復入為了整個交流的安全交流的透明化、公開化讓國人能夠了解儘量的去揭露那當然我們也有呼籲國人復入要注意他的人身安全的風險也歡迎到這個陸委會的這個動態登錄系統多一份登錄就多一份安全那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8012.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8023.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們的教育部也在精進附入交流的這個整個網路的平台未來各級學校包括老師也好學生也好學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8024.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8042.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
或者轉發各種的交流活動都必須要在這個登錄平台去登錄揭露那這個都是除了確保自己安全之外也能夠跟家長交代跟社會有一個公開透明的可以監督那這也是替國人負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8044.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8063.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
那未來,也跟委員報告,未來我們修法的重點也在希望我們從政府官員到民意代表從立法委員到村里長都能夠納入這一整套的賦入去的時候都要依規定來做審查還有請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8066.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8083.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那這個是不管是政府從高階官員到基層人員都必須一律的遵守那以確保我們附陸交流次序呢非常的完整那也可以做好這個安全的保障以及我們各種的統戰風險的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8086.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8114.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
因為主委你剛才說到對岸不管交流不管說任何的行程都是公開必須登錄必須登錄我們就是要嚴格的執行這可以確保一定的安全性還可以確保在同站這個部份也可以去檢討是不是整個透明不管說任何的團體包含不是包含學校老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8114.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8143.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們是整個團體都要去登錄那登錄我們還是要多加的宣傳不然本時在這收款才250件目前還是在鼓勵性子未來修法我們是不是有一些規範那我們可以跟大院一起來討論讓大家踴躍來登錄登錄對大家有好處對我們民主憲政的正常運作也有幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8144.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8172.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
因為這樣,去到那裡的安全性,我們才能追蹤得到你說,尤其本市有這麼多資料,被扣押的有102件以及失聯招限制人身自由的又有89件所以在這個部分,我們整個到對岸去登陸整個行程這是一個非常重要,我們一定要落實的去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8173.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8194.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
謝謝委員提醒 我們來過報案的有102件沒有報案的那黑數搞不好更多這些人都在大陸失蹤 被強制的拘押盤查或者是被他們的刑法限制人身自由從去年到現在有102件 這個數字不斷在增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8197.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8212.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以國人復入的風險是增加的這也是我們兩岸互動我們最在意的地方所以我們為什麼要提高旅遊警示而且希望大家都能夠到陸委會也好教育部也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8214.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8238.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
登陸我們這個系統那剛剛委員也說了為了我們民主政治的正常運作那麼大家都能夠揭露那我們也在鼓勵各界的人士能夠揭露能夠去填報這個詳細的這個資訊讓社會了解同時也獲得一份的安全保障我們會努力謝謝 謝謝主委好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8255.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8258.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
下一位我們請我們的召委張宏祿召委謝謝我請主委總委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8267.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8294.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
主委其實今天這個法案提案的內容其實我覺得我們大家是要守護中華民國在台灣的主權還有我們民主的生活方式對不對對其實最主要就是這樣對我們在台灣如果沒有民主的自由我們今天也不能在這邊質詢你吧今天這些法案都在民主防衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8296.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8320.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
不管是什麼方位啦就台灣如果沒有民主我們今天這麼多立法委員不管是哪一黨哪一派的都可以這麼嚴厲的質詢你那你也要很誠實的回答這是不是民主的真諦對啊所以我們守護的是這個啊那另外我們再怎麼樣我們是要守護台灣的中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8322.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8348.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
現在就是台灣台澎金嘛我們的主權嘛 對不對這是我們最主要的嘛我們前提是這樣 對不對啊 主委是 我們當然是守護我們國家主權守護我們自由民主的生活方式這是我們要去做的啦我先請教你幾個問題啊剛剛很多人問你說小公司是不是自我矮化我想請問一下主委喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8349.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8376.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
一間公司小它的價值就少嗎我想應該是未必什麼未必很多公司它人不多但是它的價值是超過那種好幾萬人的公司的是不是當然這全世界有很多這一種對不對我的規模小但我的價值高我在全球的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8377.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8395.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
經貿的影響力跟那個關鍵的地位是非常重要的那很像不像台灣我們台灣在全球半導體業在全球科技業裡面我們台灣雖然小但我們人才多但我們有關鍵的技術我們這間公司人雖然不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8396.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8420.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但我們的價值是比很多那個好幾萬那個工廠的那個價值高出上千倍吧是 是不是 是不是這樣是好 那事的情況就大膽講嘛這個哪有什麼矮化我們是小而美小而精我們是有實力的咩我是覺得用大公司小公司如果你像委員這樣談就很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8421.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8438.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
就怕過度曲解畢竟我們不是啦我跟你講主委有的人就是要故意曲解啊有的人現在我們聽了我們生氣是有的人講話就是從中國共產黨的角度在台灣講話啊很多人是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8439.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8464.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
這是我們擔心的我們今天才會要有這些法案啊是不然幹嘛有需要這些法案是對不對我們擔心的是很多人在台灣那以他的角度在台灣利用台灣的言論自由然後呢抹黑造謠很多事情啊是我們擔心的是這樣啊是是不是啊是對啊所以其實你就要大聲講出來啊我覺得這個沒有什麼啊這個我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8468.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8490.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
以前小學念書的時候沒有國哪有家啦現在中華民國如果被消滅了以後還有立法院嗎以後還有台灣要什麼嗎連房子連土地都國有化了連拜拜都不自由了這是我們要守護的一個精神啊對不對所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8491.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8503.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
交流 大家都可以交流但我們今天的這個介紹有一些是對因為你擔任特殊的位置的人我可以給你一些管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8504.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8533.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
對不對我們只是局限這裡而已嘛我們也沒有全面阿好像講的是全面阿不對吧有嗎 有沒有全面對於剛剛委員說那些指標性的人員因為過去掌握我們非常重要的國家資訊以及他的位置很特殊我們要給他的言行有一些賦予相當的一個相對的責任這是合理的不是 我們今天的修法我們是不是就局限在這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8535.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8560.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
有到全面管制人民嗎有一些是這樣來設計一些重要的人我要管理但我們現在我們是要給一般人民知道哪一條紅線你不能踩的我們現在社會越來越有共識比如消滅中華民國主權並吞台灣或是鼓吹武統 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8561.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8586.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
鼓吹用戰爭的方式來侵略台灣那像這些慢慢社會有一個共識而且你講這個是在呼應對岸的一個說法那這些要件我們想說進一步的形成共識那如果大院如果通過這些立法那我們社會就應該來遵循對啦所以總括的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8589.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8615.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
對一些重要的人、特殊的人我們是採取比較高度的管理但是對一般人民我們就跟你講哪些紅線你不要踩細節就不用再說了最主要的原則是在這裡吧所以我覺得啦台灣是一個言論自由的國家但言論自由還是有必須有限制的啦你辱罵別人都要被告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8619.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8625.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
替我們的敵對勢力在宣傳我覺得是不合理而且我一直認為啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8627.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8653.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
對岸一直在講要武統而且他也軍機什麼的實際都在演練都在說這個在我們來講這就是敵對勢力啊這不是敵國不然這是什麼我跟你講這個也要讓全台灣人知道我們要堅守我們的主權跟我們的民主自由的方式我們就必須要有一些做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8654.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8671.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
不然台灣早就被賣掉了以前的國民黨就是這樣子輸給共產黨了我們今天不能再重蹈覆轍委員所講的我們都會積極的去做兩岸關係的試讀教育這個我們會來全力努力好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8675.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8694.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好謝謝我們張宏祿委員我們的召委來下一位何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在來林子英林子英林子英委員不在葉言之葉言之葉言之委員不在習新穎好習新穎委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8707.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8708.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
謝謝主席 本席請邱主委好 請主委主委好我們大家都非常肯定國安非常的重要那確實大陸近來也有很多的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8738.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8761.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個威脅到台灣所以我們共同抵禦這種情況我們也要共同支持這個國安但是呢 本席手上有幾份數據報告顯示我們去年2024年因為共諜案起訴的人數是2021年的三倍之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8762.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8783.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
其中甚至包括不少的現役還有退役軍人這代表什麼這代表對岸的滲透不僅沒有減緩而且更加的猖獗每位國人還有對政府高層或軍隊被滲透的現象非常的憂心 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8784.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8800.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
所以主委您認不認同我們整個在維護國安的同時除了小老百姓更重要的就是這些掌握機密的人您認同嗎你只要回答認同或不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8801.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8821.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
是 我認同接著我們還看到一個更令人憂心的今年就爆發很多我們看到執政黨政府的內部包含一些核心人員掌握機密的人員也頻頻傳出被中共吸收為其工作的案例您知道這些事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8822.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8846.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我想整個社會都非常關注所以相較於一般社會人士赴大陸交流的言行我們本來也應該進行種種的規範但是政府內部這些真正可能觸犯接觸我們國家機密甚至已經被對岸吸收的核心人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8848.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8873.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我想知道我們陸委會你難道沒有版本你要去修改法令能夠有更有效的防範措施呢我們看到對於沒有機密的社會人士市場的小老百姓社會大眾我們來修法制約但是對於我們這些真正會掌握到我們國家機密的核心人員可以說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8874.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8897.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
这个执政党身边的自己人却视若无睹毫无防范可以可以等一下你讲嘛所以毫无设防我们这个觉得非常的遗憾那所以家贼难防啊国之大患还有罚老百姓容易啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8898.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8912.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
但是要罰自己人很難所以好接下來請你檢答針對這個部分你剛剛說你們也很重視那請問你做了哪些具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8915.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8930.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這個措施舉例讓我們知道現在共諜案層出不窮那請問你防範的機制在哪裡你可以提出更具體的國安強化措施嗎請你簡單謝謝委員對於國家安全的重視因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8934.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8953.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
防治這個共諜因為權責不在我們陸委會但是我們知道政府在做了很多安全查核的工作避免這個事情發生那我們也知道許多的共諜的查出來像在軍方雖然他變成滲透的主要對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8954.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8964.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
但是我們也發現有百分之超過將近80以上的也都是因為軍方他們安全保密做得很好自己舉發出來的所以這個方面不能否定他們的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8969.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8978.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們時間有限,我們大家都想聽,在座的每一位,甚至在網路上看的都想聽你到底做了什麼嗎?或是你幫我們的政府說,不是你的權責,那你做了些什麼?我想相關政府機關都密切合作,來減少這些共諜的出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8992.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9011.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以你說看看我們現在要修法規範我們的民眾但是我們這些真正掌握機密的政府相關的核心人員從總統府到外交部到執政黨的相關的秘書助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9011.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9039.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
你沒有任何的防災有已經說要加強安全查核都有在努力在做了就一個加強安全查核好沒關係因為我時間有限所以這一塊我們我相信大家聽完一定覺得你對民眾你就修法然後規範你加強安全查核我們對我們自己的尊公教人員的加強規範都有在未來的修法應該是蠻多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9041.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9053.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
未來的修法應該蠻多的因為我們今天沒有提出我們的版本未來我們修法都會強化這方面那對啊為什麼今天不提出版本這就是大家的疑問嘛我們有說明的我們還在程序當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9055.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9081.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
接著我們今天要討論的法案你們很早就看到這些提案了但是為什麼你知道整個提案內容可能有一些不是那麼明確比較籠統的問題你在報告書裡面也有寫這裡面有很多不確定這裡面的報告書有很多不確定的法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9082.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9100.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
然後呢 相關規範在法案討論時再進一步研議本席很想知道 今天就請你們陸委會要提出你們的立場你們明確的表示 你為什麼不對這些法案提出一些具體你的立場跟你的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9102.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9117.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這樣子我們要質詢我才知道你針對這些具體的做法跟你的意見是什麼你不能就全部交給說相關規範可與法案討論時進一步研議因為這幾個版本相關的這個有許多不確定的法律概念我們對於如何釐清那個要件未來在採取上才有明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9128.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9153.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
那這我們需要跟幾個版本的委員坐下來持續溝通但是他的立法本意在強化我們的民主防衛機制在確保我們國家安全以及我們自由民主的憲政秩序來保護我們我覺得這些立法方向我們是給你肯定給你支持的你都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9155 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9169.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
回答我你都在廢話回答為什麼這些我們也認同這些大方向我們也認同啊但是你是行政單位你就應該要提出具體的這個明確你們的立場你不能這樣模糊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9170.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9185.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我們沒有模糊啊 我們是支持這樣的修法你支持好 那OK 你既然這樣講今天我們很多法條講到配合附和大陸地區黨務軍事等等這個是禁止 就是說修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9187.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9206.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
條文裡面不能做這些事還有不得配合大陸地區具有統戰目的的宣傳行為還有不得公然發表我國非主權獨立國家系其他國家之一等等等等這樣的言論因為時間關係我不全念 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9206.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9228.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那像這些比如說我就請問你你在學術研討會上我發表了那個學界他可能不是很清楚你的所謂配合跟附和這個很籠統啊那怎麼樣叫配合怎麼叫附和還有你這個剛剛我念的這三種包含我們的賴總統他都公開講了中國併購台灣哇這個提條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9232.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9257.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個有沒有觸犯啊有沒有觸犯分裂國土的言論或者是配合附和對岸所以本席要說的就是說還有就是說有些台灣藝人如果在商業的演出當中因為主辦方的要求可能講了兩岸一家親啊這樣算不算配合大陸地區具有統戰目的呢或者是有很多台灣民眾他的祖先來自中國大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9257.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9268.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
因為他難道不能講說我們本來就是兩岸一家親或者是我們這個同源同種等等的言論所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9269.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9285.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
本席要強調的就是說今天你們沒有針對這些籠統的提出意見那你說要到審查的時候我看不到你的立場我看不到你這個明確的來講出來所以什麼叫併購什麼樣叫唱賀對岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9289.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9313.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
因為民眾啊我們現在講的是修法你只要進入修法民眾就有這個違反司法的風險他很容易就可能違法我支持委員的看法就是立法目的我們要肯定這些委員的用心委員的用心不用你在這邊拍馬屁我們好像是一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9314.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9329.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
你剛剛講一些如果確定那種法律不確定概念這個我們可以就有關相關要件再來形成共識我覺得你們應該要針對今天所有委員提出來的你可不可以在會後提出你們的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9330.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9358.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那主席您認同嗎就是說你本來你行政單位對於委員的提案你不是提出我告訴你每一個單位說認同當然認同不認同是一種立場但是你也要有一些比較具體的不然這樣子很模糊啊你們要提出你們的立場你不能全部你每一項都是你自己還知道這些都跟民眾的言論自由相關有關對那所以你應該提出你的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9359.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9367.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以是不是可以在會後我給你們時間在下一次因為我們今天只詢答我們沒有主條你們應該要提出見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9370.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9389.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
可以嗎我覺得給他們時間啊但是你要先提出來你不要都是在現場在那邊講因為其實照理我們質詢前你就該提出來不然我要質詢你什麼你就只有一個你肯定我也肯定啊對國安我們大家都肯定啊可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9391.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9412.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
是 我們本來職責所在而且進入到主條討論的時候我們就來落實這個法律法你多久可以送來內政委員會我們會配合我們召集人的一些指示主席他要請你指示 多久可以送來他總要送來嘛不是 我就說給你時間 你多久時間對啊 召委問你多久時間今天就這幾條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9422.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9429.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們在一個禮拜內好啦 可以給你更多兩個禮拜我給你打保 好不好OK 好 所以就這樣 好不好好 謝謝好 蔡議員蔡議員蔡議員不在發 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9441.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9468.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
發言登記委員除不在場者外其餘經與發言完畢詢答結束委員丁學忠所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項所列議事均令定期所列議案均令定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9495.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9496.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |