| IVOD_ID |
16718 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16718 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-36,19-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-28T12:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-28T15:53:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:23:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcdabd91bd523f6fd0984c5e936b9b088da12e9ca99aa835c05ba7587fe2e4c4ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-28T13:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查（一）行政院函請審議、（二）委員王美惠等18人、（三）委員羅廷瑋等18人、（四）委員李坤城等16人、（五）委員吳秉叡等18人、（六）委員陳亭妃等16人、（七）委員蔡易餘等17人、（八）委員何欣純等22人及（九）委員吳思瑤等17人分別擬具「個人資料保護委員會組織法草案」案。
【第（八）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（九）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
（星期三下午及星期四全天為一次會）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:29:59 - 15:53:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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報告聯席會 出席委員19人 已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會我們介紹到場的委員跟應邀列席的官員我們先介紹我們在場的委員 不好意思 讓你們等來 第一位 上演導的 羅志強委員 讓你稍微笑一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2055.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2073.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
沒有跟你說賴瑞榮不輸你 也不輸你賴瑞榮委員還有吳斯亞委員請問沒你改建 你說話而已來 我們列席的官員賴瑞榮有啊 兩個都編導 沒辦法介紹你也給我串一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2082.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2097.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
來 我們介紹列席的官員個人資料保護委員會籌備處我們的主任李士德主任還有我們行政院人事行政總處政務副人事長李秉舟那個政務副人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2099.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2127.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這些不介紹到的 其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單 我們就不再主委介紹並列入公報記錄了本次的議場 討論事項的排定我們就平安來審查 行政院還請審議個人資料保護委員會組織法的草案等9案現在進行提案說明及報告那進行委員提案說明 每一位委員發言時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2128.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2129.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我不說兩分鐘,說三分鐘,繼續說 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2135.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2156.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 來來 請提案人沒人來了吳思堯委員吳思堯 剛才跟他理念想說的吳思堯 來進行提案說明不用齁你這個都有高度共識啦齁那請機關代表啊來做一個報告發言時間那個不用多久來請我們請個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任李仕德報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2169.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2181.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先生女士 大家午安今天奉邀列席貴人會就審查行政院函請審議還有委員王美惠 莊瑞雄等 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2182.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2205.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員羅廷偉 李燕秀等委員李坤成 羅美玲等委員吳秉瑞等委員陳亭飛等委員蔡玉瑜 陳煥廷等委員何新淳等委員吳思瑤 陳俊宇等分別領據個人資料保護委員會組織法草案共九案 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2206.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2217.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
代表本籌備處報告並被質詢 深感榮幸本籌備處緊究要點在述如下一 立法重點各自會為獨立機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2220.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2244.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
各自法的第一條之一的立法理由已經有明確去揭示考量各自法需監督之對象廣泛監督職權複雜且涉及公權力行政事項故採設置統籌性之獨立監督機關各自會來擔任各自法的主管機關以完足憲法第22條對人民資訊隱私權之保障二各自會之主要職長 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2246.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2267.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
有包含到整個個人資料保護的政策規劃法規之擬定諮詢行政監督管理違反案件之處理及處分科技應用模式的延期跨境傳輸的限制與執行國際合作及交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2269.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2281.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那教育訓練以及宣導人才培育國內外各自保護法治政策執行及追蹤調查統計三各自會屬合一制機關那各自會 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2282.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2307.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
至委員五人到七人任期四年並採交錯任期制那委員應具的資格目前我們有列有個人資料保護法律資訊科技資通安全人權行政公共行政經濟商業管理或消費者保護等等學識經驗以因應各資資料監理事務的多元化 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2308.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2330.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那委員均應獨立行使職權並謹守利益迴避原則二 設立各自會之預期效益未來各自會成立後將成為各自法的主管機關並透由配套修正各自法的部分條文賦予給各自會必要的監管權限對於原本全然欠缺外部監督的公務機關將優先納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2332.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2357.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
非公務境外部分各自會將優先納管尚無明確目的事業主管及管制司部門至於已經有明確目的事業主管及管制司部門則與各自法明訂過度條款與過度期間分階段將各目的事業主管及管制局管權限逐步再移交給各自會必利未來達成各自保護事務監督預言化及立法政策的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2358.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2373.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那中上各自會的成立未來還要統籌協調各級政府機關去落實個人資料保護的業務並透由於產業跟學界的合作來共同推動個人資料保護人才的培育促進 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2374.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2389.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
業界對於個人資料保護資源的投入有助於深化跟落實個人資料保護法制來共同建構安全可信賴的個人資料保護環境最後結語感謝各位委員長期關心個人資料保護的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2391.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2410.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那本組織法的草案是為我國邁向個人資料保護制度全面現代化的一個重要基石那上期我也能夠鼎力支持行政院所提的組織法草案的規劃 必力早日完成立法程序推動各自會正式設立展開我國個人資料保護制度的新紀元 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2412.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2432.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 謝謝李仕德主任的報告那其餘書面報告機關有沒有口頭要補充沒有 現在有委員也到場了那其他的委員有沒有要進行提案說明的沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2433.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2446.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那我們現在機關代表報告完畢了 相關的書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那提案說明跟機關報告已進行完畢 現在來開始進行詢答那今天因為是聯席會 人數較多 兩個委員會 一個用27位 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2451.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2478.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
之後在討論條文的時候能有機會充分的表達意見啦本聯席會委員啦 詢答時間3分鐘啦 3加1啦有的還跟我建議兩分鐘啦 不然我用叫我們還是本委員會的3加1那非聯席委員會的委員啦 詢答時間就3分鐘我們就不再延長那下午2點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位賴瑞榮委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2482.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2486.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 謝謝召委了 請李主任來 請李主任李主任 這個憲法法庭明定在判決的三年內要建立這個獨立的監督機制也就是在今年的8月12號要完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2502.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2512.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就是朝這個目標來完成那這幾天如果順利的假如今天出委員會那院會也順利完成了這個三讀程序在8月12前來成立應該沒問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2514.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2531.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就是因為當然還會有一些接下來通過之後行政委還要指定施行日期然後還有要整個配合作用法的部分那因為作法另外還在經濟委員會要審不過我們還是就是努力先往這個方向從8月12號來完成然後符合憲法法庭的規定是我們努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2531.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2561.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好那裡面當然其他很多的一些的這個公務機關的監督機制啦特別我看到裡面對於管理的制度要再加強確實跟最近很多發生的事件也有很多密切的相關我們來看剛剛這兩天剛剛發生的事情南投的選委會他的副總幹事就說了就是在查核的時候簽名的簡寫跟戶政系統登錄差異太大所以被剔除掉了我先問一下主任這個有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2563.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2577.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
跟委員報告當然在各司法的角度裡面它是一個框架性的立法公務機關在進行個人資料的利用我們在現有的15條跟16條當然是會有一個抽象性的說法說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2578.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2604.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
要看他的法定職長的必要範圍內來進行利用若不在法定職長必要範圍內當然有一些例外的事由但是在現有這邊還夾雜一個很重要就是他有一個強烈的作用法在這邊已經先出現了那因為個資法是框架法很多東西最後會去看他法定職長這個法會回到公職人員就是目前選罷法授權去訂的公職人員罷免提議連署及查對作用辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2605.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2628.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果這個辦法裡面大概已經有去揭示說機關在進行資料的一個需要去進行的收集跟利用對象已經有一個框架去做前置的收集那我們覺得這邊應該是先優先所以他應該是要先依照這個作業辦法裡面寄送查詢單去嗎直接因為簽名的潦草而就剔除掉這個顯然有爭議的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2629.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2651.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這部分當然是由這個作用法中選會再來做因為這個也就是有很多的紛爭甚至於未來的部分怎麼樣去避免侵占到各資的問題這個都會有所以也希望這個組織成立之後這一塊事情要更多的加強去做溝通跟宣導避免讓公務員不小心觸法特別是所有的重要的各資公家機關都掌握都有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2652.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2676.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
但是各自不是能夠輕易的使用他的他必須很節制的使用那像這種的等於是他直接光這樣的講法的話他說跟戶政系統登錄差異太大那顯然如果照這樣的語意上他有去比對那比對恐怕就有問題了你怎麼可以輕易的去輕易的去用這樣的方式去做比對我覺得我用的這個就已經有侵犯到各自的問題更何況是你應該是先用查詢單所以像這個就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2677.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2694.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
變形的例子那更不要講像花蓮花蓮的部分也是齁這個也涉及到個資的部分他直接就透過整個戶政系統去做相關的一些調查照理說你有任何狀況也應該是有選委會來做相關的一些查詢跟釐清的動作你也可以寄出查詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2695.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2716.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
查詢單嘛怎麼會是透過護證系統那誰授權你做這件事情誰授權護證系統去做這件事情的那這件事情包括指揮者現在看來是所以被起訴了嘛看來是這個局長處長本身的指揮但是公務人員在接受到這樣指令的時候他也要如果是明知違法他也要必須要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2717.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2727.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他不能夠直接去做違法的事項我認為這個裡面都有很多未來需要加強去做宣導對於各自保護的加強宣導主任怎麼看 這些工作是不是應該持續要來加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2728.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2752.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
是 剛剛也跟委員有報告說未來的個資會成立之後首先當然會把公部門先去納管那有關於當然這個個案裡面有另外涉及到個資法41我再補充一個 因為時間到了你看像基隆的民政處長這個也是被收押進鑑他這個更誇張 他是直接把裡面的資料如果照他的起訴書是把裡面的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2753.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2772.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個基隆市政府的資料拿出來給別人可以去做抄寫那這個更嚴重就等於是你形同是把內部的個資直接洩漏出去所以像這些問題這個下令者本身很嚴重但是執行者誰執行的為什麼可以執行就公務員對未來這件事情都必須非常非常謹慎包括甚至於很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2773.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2788.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
一些重大的一些這個個資甚至於中共啦其他很多的不斷在竊取我們的一些個資甚至有的販賣個資的這些恐怕都是未來我就認為這個單位成立會要加強的工作這個主任有沒有什麼樣未來要做的加強的部分是 未來個資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2791.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2816.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在我們的個資法作用法我們會有一個架構就是會有一個政策推進的這個會議我們會把上級機關跟中央目的世界機關也都會先找進來這部分當然跟內政部未來一定會有一個橫向協力有關於說個人資料保護的這樣一個制度的一個法制的一個遵循跟落實當然在部分會個人資料保護會成立之後一定會往這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2817.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2832.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們希望組織成立之後對於整個個人資料保護會有更嚴密的一些效果同時也有更強的宣導效果不要讓輕易的讓我們各自在輕易的外洩謝謝賴瑞榮委員的質詢接下來我們請吳宗憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2848.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2859.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
謝謝 那我們請各支會的李主任還有主計處的廖專委委員早 委員午安好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2871.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2880.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那我們先請到李主任你們今天的報告有提出來就是說你們是相當於三個獨立的三級的獨立機關那我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2882.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2902.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我看到草案第三條說到就是採合議制就是委員總共五到七人可是呢主委副主委專委兩人都是院長指派那這樣變成是五分之四還是六分之四還是七分之四還有一半都是院長指派的人那這樣子要怎麼樣獨立我想請教主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2904.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2915.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
跟委員報告就是目前現階段他是依照我們組織法所任命之後然後獨立去所以我跟你講第一個我的疑問就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2916.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2942.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你裡面四個人是院長指派那你的委員才五到七人你等於是過半都是院長指派但是你只要過半就可以開罰那這樣子的合議制還有意義嗎因為都是執行院長的意見啊主任是跟委員報告就是目前當然現階段整個獨立機關的這樣的一個設置在河安跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2942.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2954.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們的運輸安全也是有這樣的一個設置其實我們目前先用河岸會的那個設計只是做我們參考的那你這樣等於我還是聽的搞不清楚但你還是沒有講到我的答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2955.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2983.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為我的題目啦就說有一半的人都是院長指派的人那這個要怎麼樣讓他能夠行政獨立這是我第一個意見那尤其是我認為目前我國的NCC還有中選會其實爭議都蠻多的那今天我們要讓你成立一個新的那個委員會但是在裡面成員的指派又都是院長可以指派超過半數的人那他要怎麼樣獨立這是我第一個問題那你剛剛說你們是借鏡哪個獨立機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2986.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3005.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
目前因為三級機關我們也參考了核安會跟我們的運安會那因為本身組織法也去也有強調這一點他必須要本於他自己的一個依照法律要獨立行使職權那我就說嘛我就還是回到最基本問題你一直告訴我你是獨立行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3007.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3034.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
職權的機關但是我看到的是過半不管你採五到七人的哪一個人數過半都是院長所指定的人這就是我的問題那我再請教一下你們說我分三個區塊第一個區塊是公務機關優先各自全面監管第二個是非公務機關那第三個是目的事業主管機關的非公務機關那我想請教第一個公務機關的部分那如果以後法院他的裁判書裡面如果有 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3035.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3059.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那個不小心揭露一些 或是故意揭露一些合一性侵等等的個資呢 你們要怎麼裁法你要對法官開法嗎 還是對機關開法那部分有關於法院 因為本身在憲法就已經有保障說那個法院在行使他的那個審判的話是獨立行使所以那部分的話還是要按照現行的規定所以法院如果違反你們就無從處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3060.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3088.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因為這個在國外包含在歐盟他們也是直接有規定獨立專人機關不可以去涉入那個審判沒關係我想說意思就是沒有辦法處理好那這是答案然後再來我請問我剛剛講第三個那如果是中華電信然後那個它是NCC管以後歸你們管還有銀行的各支這些本來是金管會管現在改成歸你們管嗎那我想請教一下那像這樣子的話那以後你們的人力足夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3090.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3109.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
跟委員報告目前現在我們先設計未來在作用法部分設計一個六年的條款會分階段兩年兩年回收然後同時再去評估我們現有的人力這個部分還要再跟人種因為這個量很大很驚人我在這邊先跟你說明一下是是是謝謝委員這量很大到底你有沒有辦法吃得下來是你們第一個要考量的問題感謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3110.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3119.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
然後再來就是說我看到你們說歸管的過渡期可是草案都沒有提到耶那這樣子的話那像我剛剛講到中華電信各家銀行有違反個資的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3122.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3144.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那個裁罰的權責機關是誰 訴願的機關又是誰 你可以跟我講嗎好 跟委員報告 目前現在在作用法第51條之一是規定在分管的時間的時候 還是由原分管的中央目的執行員來進行裁罰但是他裁罰做的處分的話 他的訴願不會再往其他地方跑 是直接到我們這邊那還蠻特別的耶 這跟訴願法的規定不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3146.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3161.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以你們用特別規定來處理對 直接到我們這邊來所以我們是用這個來控制好 那這個要宣導明確喔因為人民對於溯源的程序他的理解會原本溯源法規範對 作用法有明確規定好 那再來喔最後啦 我請教一個問題因為我看到你們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3162.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3191.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
草案的第10條又要大量聘用約聘人員50人那我想說哇 又是約聘因為其實我很擔心我覺得國家怎麼走到最後都是約聘因為約聘它就不是經由正常的公務員文官任用的方式不是一般那種考試進來的嘛那約聘到最後會不會又變成是酬庸性質這是我們立法委員應該要監督的部分那我想請問一下主任這麼大量的約聘人數那以後會不會又變成是酬庸呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3192.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3219.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
跟委員報告 不會啦 因為我們上限是控制在50人齊二就是因為目前現在因為監管的事業多元化尤其還涉及到很多AI新的科技的發展還有對於說集合有些可能這些實務界我們公部門都找不到這種專業的人士剛好又是做公務員所以我們還是有這樣的一個需求沒有 我就說我的意見還是這個啦 約聘會不會變成酬庸 我想不管是哪一個政黨 只要立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3220.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3239.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
都會在意這件事情你們那個監督議員化我不是說完全反對但監督議員化就會變成是事權的變成統一了那事權統一之後又會發生另外一個問題就是將來我們每個人都會擔心的就是會不會把這個委員會變成是整數一級用 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3239.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3261.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
不要說整數不同黨啦同黨裡面我看也是殺到瘋了啦最近有一些政黨內部不同派系也是殺到瘋了會不會變成是主導的派系去殺他不喜歡的派系我不知道啦我也沒有說哪一個政黨啦會不會變這樣這就是我認為監督議員化可能產生的副作用主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3262.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3285.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我相信你會有你的說法啦那我在這邊就是跟主任說明一下這個東西千萬不要發生好嗎就是一個委員會的成立是要保護國人不是拿來做政治鬥爭的好不好好謝謝我們吳宗憲委員的詢答其實這也都很寶貴的意見我們接下來請程廷飛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3296.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3322.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
謝謝莊委那我們是不是請李主任請李主任委員午安主任其實我們在經濟委員會你清楚我一直都在追這個進度因為我們的個人資料保護如果沒有一個委員會正式的成立一切都是假的可是我們現在更擔心的是委員會成立之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3323.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3345.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
你沒有可以推脫的機會了就是說當我們個人資料保護沒有保護好就是我們的責任了好 我現在要問當我們委員會成立之後我們怎麼保護各自我們怎麼保護各自有公部門 非公部門好 我們怎麼去處理我們先講公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3346.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3356.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
跟委員報告雖然個人資料保護委員會他是獨立機關但是我們目前設計他不是孤獨機關所以在另外經濟委員會也要省的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3357.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3383.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
即將要審的個人資料保護的修正草原我們有放一條很重要就是一至二條就是現有委員會他一來他會去成立一個新的政策平台我們叫做政策推進會議然後在一至二條的第一項清楚賦予給所有的公務機關的上級機關以及目的事業他的目的事業主管機關都一樣要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3384.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3396.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這個去幫忙完成整個個人資料保護鑑度的這個義務主任你這個講法是表面是表面重點是你要怎麼去保護我必須說的現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3398.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3423.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
在很多的區塊包括詐騙包括等等說真的各自是最關鍵的我們才是三級獨立機關可是我們怎麼對於二級機關去給他們要求就算有這個平台我知道我們的法規裡面我們有自己設了一個能夠未來有 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3424.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3435.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
一些工具可以處理的可是這些工具它畢竟是一個表面你們是三級機關你們怎麼對二級機關去要求他們要盡到保護的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3436.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3457.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那也跟委員報告剛剛說這個平台沒有錯它的確是目前看到外顯但是本身我們往下有兩個很重要的一個工具就是對公務機關非公務機關因為都有個人資料保護安全維護的義務那一個是定在我們未來的18條那一個是定在我們20條之一雙方我們這邊會定一個共同安全維護的一個基準 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3458.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3473.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那本來都有 前面都已經講了說 他們都有一個責任跟義務上級跟目的 中央目的有責任去push自己監管的行業 或者是自己監管的下級機關那同時 每個公務部門或是事務部門我們在未來設計的18條跟20條之一 我們那還要再去訂辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3477.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3495.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
他們要去落實要再訂執法嘛對不對對 那部分是一個很重要的重點是抓緊他們就好所以其實因為你們的相關法律我們都看到不要看了重點在哪裡要落實你們的關鍵在執法就是說你們要怎麼去落實對母法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3496.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3518.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
一個標準但是重點在執法你們的執法是不是可以真正到位從公部門到非公部門像我們看的非公務機關他們如果有遇到各自的事故請問你要怎麼要求他們要去有應變措施或是保存事故的一個記錄你們要怎麼要求他 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3519.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3534.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
對 目前現在當然在我們現行的母法條文裡面12條會去要求 每個公部門這些都是要求啊 公部門或許我們有彼此的約束 可是非公務機關呢非公務機關我們當然後面 非公務機關我們還有對應的罰則啦所以他講說譬如說外企所以也是罰則而已嘛當然不只只有罰則 我們還是會去進行相關的這個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3544.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3560.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
還要進行糾正主任我必須說的今天當我們這個委員會成立之後壓力就來了過去你可以說我們還沒有委員會我們現在要趕快成立所以我們希望趕快掛牌趕快完成可是現在正式成立之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3561.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3589.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你沒有可以推脫的地方了公務單位我們怎麼盡到各自保護非公務單位我們要怎麼要求他這些我們一定要有一套的SOP我們現在有了母法我們的執法要定得更精準更精準喔 你聽懂我這句話更精準因為現在所有的各自問題我們都清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3591.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3614.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
問題在哪裡所以你們要把像現在面臨所謂的洩漏擱置的狀況要從執法定的更精準來做約束這個部分主任麻煩我們的期待很高謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員那些作用法的保溫那可能大家就要比較多費點心了接下來請沈發慧委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3624.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3642.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
主席請李主任請李主任委員午安李主任今天因為只有四分鐘所以我們本來有一些問題我想要要這個再精簡這個我們這個個人資料保護委員會最主要是因為因應這個111年憲判第13號認為就是說這個個人資料保護法的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3649.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3667.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個沒有獨立監督機制沒有建立相關法制所以要求我們在這個三年內宣誓三年內所以正好是今年的8月11宣誓是111年8月12所以在今年8月11之前理論上是要掛牌對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3669.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3681.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
就是我們朝這個方向前進也要看今天這個會不會順利通過啦那剛剛這個我特別也關心一個部分剛剛前面也有委員提到啦我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3683.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3709.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
個人資料保護委員會目前在按照這個草案的第一條它是相當中央三級獨立機關那中央三級獨立機關目前有的好像像河安會像這個運安會這也是三級獨立機關那我看我們的草案的第三條這部分剛才這個有委員特別關心這部分我事實上也是特別關心這個部分我們在這個第三條裡面第一項規定就是說本會委員會置五到七人那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3710.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3730.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
更重要的是在第二項,第二項裡面有說主任委員、副主任委員由這個專任委員由行政院長任命,其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者專家分別聘任之。主任,我的有關機關是什麼意思?哪一些機關是有關機關,哪一些機關是無關機關呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3733.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3749.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
目前現在因為這個的體制我們在其他的三級獨立機關也有這樣的用語有關機關好像沒有吧有有關機關那我們有關個資的部分你現在可以舉出哪個例子是無關機關嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3751.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3768.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
他應該是這個文字的意思是說院長可以針對比如說我們今天講需要說科技的部分需要那個抒發部這邊有一個人來擔任那可能就會變成這邊的所謂有關機關不過目前這部分只是一個這個時間的關係再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3772.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3785.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們只測五到七人啦齁這個但是你按照這個第三條第四項齁本這個本會委員應具有的這個相關的學識經驗齁就包括個人資料保護法律資訊科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3787.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3809.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這個資通安全、人權、公共行政、經濟、商業、管理、消費者保護光你們列出來的領域就有11個領域但是你們只設5到7人所以不管你們怎麼聘除非你可以聘到一個人他一個人就有4、5種專長不然的話你5到7人連你們自己所說的涵蓋的領域都做不到啊你們自己這些領域就包含11個領域了但是你也只設5到7人 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3811.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3826.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
是 跟委員報告第一個啦第二個這個我來看法治的規定你按照這個其實這個按照這個行政院的這個聘用各級機關聘用人員注意事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3828.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3855.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這是另外一個其實這個我看其他的委員會都5到11人5到11人其實按照法令你們也是可以設置5到11人三級的獨一機關可以設5到11人你們為什麼把委員你們這個怎麼在草案上面把委員限縮到5到7人這部分是我個人有疑慮的這個我們等一下希望在主條的時候你能夠回答這個問題因為這個你5到7人再加上一個主委一個副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3857.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3874.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
你主委副主委以外再有一個委員出席三個人就可以開會了三個人開會裡面兩個人同意就可以通過了這個我個人是有疑慮的再來最後不好意思再佔用一點時間就是你們未來預計的編制人員是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3876.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3902.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
目前這部分還在跟人總做討論你們有沒有預計目前還沒有那你們目前現在有多少人目前籌備會目前籌備處他的組織員額是89然後我們的預算員額現在是53那我們現有人數是46現有人數46啦對但是你們這第10條你們剛剛就講這個約聘人員約聘人員你們可以以不超過50人不超過50不超過50人也就是說你們現在可以全約聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3903.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3925.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
如果以你們現在的規模46個人 你們還不到50個人你全部通通約聘 沒有半個公務人員 也符合這一條餒是 當我們現在這個 這個你們以50人為上限 這個在我看在這個機關現在所有的組織條裡面是幾乎是幾乎是我沒看過的啦齁大部分 你按照這個行政院及所屬機關聘用人員注意事項他說其緣而已 不超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3926.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3948.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
該機關總預算人數百分之五為原則欸百分之五欸你們這個五十人齁我瞭解有一些立法律是有那個原額的上限啦你們這個用五十人做上限齁但是你們你們這個跟百分之五為原則這個百分之五差太遠了啦差太遠了是這個部分我想等一下我們在這個足調的時候我們再來再來來探討再跟委員就講 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3949.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3957.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
好 謝謝沈發慧委員差不多聚焦的問題就越來越集中了我們接下來請烏思瑤委員質詢生日快樂今天不是韓院長的生日快樂是莊昭偉的生日快樂謝謝 大家都快樂謝謝有請主任請李主任委員快樂 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3978.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4004.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
謝謝希望今天的審查會是一個好的結果讓我們來接軌國際法制面當然作用法是重要的經濟委員會正在審但是組織面就是今天的這個獨立機關能夠來獲得委員會的核可我想這都同等重要啊夏業當然這個是恢復憲法保障的基本權利而且我一再的強調接軌國際好我想朝野的委員都會支持夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4005.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4019.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那作用法經濟委員會正在審查我等一下問的問題其實很多其實跟作用法會比較有關係但我倒是想要看看我們的主委的一些理念上的分享是不是能夠給我們多一點的意見的回饋 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4021.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4047.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
現在發生了很多的個案當然從花蓮市政府基隆市政府到南投選委會都發生了濫用公務體系的互證系統去侵害個資好那政黨政治各方面的政治上的操作我都不再提而是我在說確實公部門極有可能因為他掌有國家最大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4048.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4071.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
公权力所授权的个人资料所以我们更彰显我们需要一个独立专业中立的机关否则现在如果以眼前台湾正在发生的个人资料的保护恐怕就是罢免案的资料外泄这更可以凸显我们需要一个独立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4073.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4084.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
專業的中立的機關否則像現在花蓮基隆南投發生的事情除了當事人去提起法律上的權利的捍衛之外我們幾乎沒有什麼樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4085.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4103.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
行政上的力量可以來阻卻或者是來懲處對不對下一頁同樣的在中央部門教育部最近也發生了是不是教育部的葉秉成次長涉及不當的去洩露學生的個資他現在自請暫時 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4106.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4130.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
請假等候調查我也用這個例子來彰顯不管中央的公務部門或是地方的公務部門當發生了公權力部門公部門對於公民的個人資料外洩的時候我們就需要一個獨立的組織來做一個公正的一個處理所以這是我們為什麼需要趕快來讓這個委員會上路喔夏業 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4132.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4156.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
但我的幾個問題當然第一個大問題是一個大災問我們很多的人權單位都希望說長城而言希望是二級機關而不是三級機關就您個人撇開等一下要審的條例啦您認為三級機關就足夠嗎如果邁向二級機關二級機關應當是一個更強而有力對於各自的保護是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4158.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4175.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
跟委員報告就是目前當機關的醜色一來當然也是要尊重人手目前現在的組織我知道但是現在有困難嘛是然後二來就是確實我們在整個研究跟了解國外國內當然也沒有說要把那個說整個機關組織層級要用最高規格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4178.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4201.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我們以前我還在國安會的時候也有跟歐盟司法總署我們有先做過錯談他們給我們一個觀念因為他們不太理解我們台灣怎麼會去分二級跟三級對他們而言就是獨立行使法定職權你就是可以去監督你的監督對象那其他的機關是按照法律受監督的嘛所以這部分我記得當時候歐盟司法總署有給我們一個建議他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4203.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4220.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
不管你們國家是最後要用二級三級重點是在於你們現有的那個職長可以去對於說作用法可以去落實所以假如以這樣來看的話我們目前現在其實先看說因為各司法有一個蠻特別的它是一個單一法令很完整的其實它就推展一個很重要的觀念就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4221.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4240.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
個人資料保護的一個制度我們俗稱說PrincipalPersonal InformationManagement System能夠落入不管公部門、私部門的整個業務跟職務推展的過程那以這個整個觀念如果能夠落實進去我們剛剛在討論說包含說外洩啊這些情況它就很明顯開始會被 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4241.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4258.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
您說的我都同意因為時間到了我認為先求有再求好長程而言如果可以因為因應現在的數位經濟發展數位科技的發展可能更有我認為Maybe someday二級機關是一個可行的方向但現在馬上就要審 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4260.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4276.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
先求有再求好我可以接受三級機關但是下一頁跟作用法我有兩個問題跟作用法比較相關啦齁您剛才講歐盟給我們很多經驗分享GDPR所規範的其實有兩個部分第一個對於現實通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4278.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4289.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們現在如果在個資法修法限時通報只有寫限時然後有主管機關定之但是如果以歐洲歐盟的標準是一旦發生侵害個資的事件當事人可以提請72小時向經理機關通報第一個有明確的是72小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4293.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4309.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
第二個在違規罰則的部分不管對公部門或私部門歐盟是罰得非常重的非常非常重的一千萬歐元以上或者是兩千萬歐元以上或者是企業年收入的百分之二或百分之四這當然對於私部門但是我們現在各執法的修法裡頭對於非公務機關才有罰還但是公務機關只有相關公務人員的懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4317.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4325.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這兩個部分現實通報的期限跟違規法則的提升補強您是不是認同我們可以再精進未來再修作用法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4326.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4351.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
這一部分的話我們作用法我們也會就是要啟動第二階段的那個修法好一樣先求有再求好我最後一個問題就是回到今天的審的我也非常認同剛剛審發會委員說的不管是我們現在是和安會也好這未來的各資會其實運安會9到11人我認為相對是合宜的一個委員的組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4352.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4370.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
五到七在領域的局限或者是這個extend這個部分我都認為九到十一也許是一個比較好的選擇我們稍後再一起逐條時候討論 好 謝謝好 謝謝吳思瑤委員的質詢我們接下來請鄭正前委員謝謝主席 我想請一下籌備會的李主任請李主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4385.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4409.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
委員午安午安我在想說因為我們8月11號之前要設立這個個案會就是我在想說這部分的時候我覺得我們也是站在一個肯定的角度來看不過針對這個部分我想特別針對第10條這邊來請教一下因為我們看到想先請教主任我們目前編制的正式編制員額是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4412.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4438.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
籌備處籌備處的組織員額89然後預算員額現在給我們53那現有人數 89然後53現有46因為我們其他就放高考因為在這邊的時候因為第10條這邊的時候我覺得這邊很特殊因為它針對那個各智慧這邊除了正式員的編制之外還得依聘用人員聘用條例規定聘用個人資料保護數位科技與應用資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4438.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4466.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
資通安全 積核 人權 經濟管理 產業政策 國際合作等相關領域的人員其實平均原額不得超過50人已經超過一半以上但我在想說這個部分是不是適合因為我看了其他的行政院下面的一個三級獨立機關都沒有這樣子的規定運安會沒有 核安會沒有不當黨委員會也都沒有這只有我們現在那個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4467.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4471.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
新的委員會當中會有一個這樣的條例那你覺得適合嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4473.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4496.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
跟我們報告就是雖然現有獨立機關那邊沒有這樣子的一個條文但我們另外一次參考了包含說經管會還有那個書發部他們的組織法都有類似的這樣的一個規定所以他這邊就產生很多像書發部之前就會產生很多人事相關的一些問題啊因為在這裡頭你如果說是一個數位安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4497.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4519.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
相關的專業的人士我們還可以理解可是你連人權產業政策國際合作部分這相關的公務人員裡面大家都很厲害那針對這個部分的時候我覺得在這個條例當中的時候第十條大開用人方便的大門的時候我們會擔心以後這個機構的時候會不會產生一些用人不當或者是為私的一個角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4520.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4544.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以我們針對這部分我們覺得要多加一個限制但是今天時間非常的短所以我這邊也特別再請教一下因為我們看到這整個條例當中的時候基本上只有一個事後究責的一個部分沒有一個事前預警的一個機制在那我們看到了歐盟的一般資料保護規定就是GDPR的部分或者韓國的個資法他們都有提前示警的一個機制在 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4545.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4552.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們的這個部分我們的各自法當中的時候是不是需要去做一個相關的配套的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4556.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4575.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這部分跟委員報告就是通常在國外這個他不會需要去入房他是把他放在安全維護衣服上面希望說公部門私部門譬如說剛講用資通訊系統你如果資通訊系統最好可能用雙英子的認證的方式假如今天有人拿到你的帳密然後要登錄進去他可能就會先給你一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4576.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4599.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
另外一個簡訊通知說現在有人登入你的帳名那他就會立刻提醒所以那個不用到去說吧那個部分當然都是用安全維護義務去push機關多採用一些好的一些措施因為你之前你有提到說要針對那個GDPR的部分去做一些參考那我們也希望這些預警的機制要把它加強進去因為否則到時候碰到事情發生就要來捕捉都很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4600.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4610.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那我另外一部分是針對我們相關新的委員會當中的時候對於政黨人士的一個比例目前是要求二分之一是不是能夠把他下修到三分之一你覺得適不適合這個部分我們現在看到現有的獨立機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4617.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4638.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
大部分都是二分之一啦NCC公平會還有運安會跟河安我們是先比照尤其是運安跟中選會三分之一啦那我在想說這就是一個考量的狀態那時間的問題我在說我特別提出來的需要說我們特別去考量最後一個部分因為我們現在算第一階段那到時候我先 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4639.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4652.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
舉個個案喔因為台興銀行最近被金管會罰了六百萬就是因為他們個資外洩那我想說在這樣的案子當中的時候我們的個資會有沒有角色可不可以請主任說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4654.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4683.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
未來的個人資料保護委員會成立的話我看說我們會有個六年的分管或回收的機制有明確目的時間的話會同時會共管但是等到六年之後回收的話全部都會有個人資料保護委員管六年之後再全部都是各自會管對不對這六年當中就還在一個過渡的狀態那這六年當中我們老百姓的權益怎麼辦因為針對台信銀行這個案子的時候很多人反應就是說他已經各自外洩了四年啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4683.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4712.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
一千多個人受到權益上的損害罰六百萬那有人覺得第一個是處理得太慢第二個狀態的時候就說相較起來他個資外資的成本也不太高啊所以針對這個部分就是罰則的部分我們也希望說個資會這邊能夠盡快扮演起這樣的角色因為目前除了政府部門跟人民的個資有很大的關係之外另外就是金融機構跟醫院都跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4712.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4735.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
每一個老百姓的個資有很大的一個關係所以我們希望這兩個領域當中的時候不要拖到六年因為這六年當中我們不曉得還有多少人的個資會受到侵害權益會遭殃好不好我們希望這部分能夠把最優先的部分把它接軌起來這六年我們還是會跟他有個協調聯繫的我們有個政策推進會他們要加入所以我們會去了解他們的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4737.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4742.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
OK 好 謝謝謝謝鄭 鄭前 鄭委員接下來 我們有請楊瓊英委員詢答馬上來謝謝主席來 各自會請李主任委員午安 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4758.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4783.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主任好我想對於公司部門都應當要有這樣子的一個應對措施那當然本席也極力支持我們務必要有成立專責機構來推動跟來執行保護政策跟監管措施所以首先要請教外界很多人在質疑就是說我們目前各自會是偏重在諮詢以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4785.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4806.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這個政策的建議那草案內當然有提起是掌管違反個人資料保護法案件之處理及處分但是外界呢有很多的很深的聲音也就是說認為是欠缺了像是調查權 裁罰權 行政指導跟命令權 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4808.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4825.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那還有一個監管的力道跟他在整個職權範圍呢都認為是限縮到很極限所以在這樣的情況之下要請問到目前為止我們的現況有辦法有效能的來執行這個個資保護法嗎請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4827.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4850.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
是,跟委員報告,在作用法那邊的設計,本來就是有賦予給未來的個人資料保護委員會,在他剛好已經有簽署有六年對於非公務機關,雖然說會逐步回收,但是在他自己在行使職權的時候,我們第三章之一,對公部門、私部門兩邊都有我們的監管法規的規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4851.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4877.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那所以這部分我們未來個人資料保護法會成立之後會依照就是新修之後的個人資料保護法來做他該有的監督的這樣的一個責任尤其是剛剛有提到說個資法的18條對公務機關的安全維護義務然後非公務機關是我們20條之一那邊有一個兩邊都會有一個這個授權條款要去訂更詳細整個這個執法非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4878.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4893.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
第18條跟第20條之一但是重點就是在於既然成立我們希望要有效能所以本席在這邊也就是說各自會在得知資料外洩之後發生之後他才需要通知當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4895.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4914.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
是有公務機關跟備工才通知嗎?他已經知道有才通知他但是我們來看看國際的做法國際看到異常登錄或者是交易等他就能夠提前的預警的來通知甚至調查的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4915.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4936.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那是措施 用這種措施提早那你認為呢就不錯啊 但是因為這部分去各個行業 假如在設計你的資料收集處理利用的過程裡面有一個多因子的這種方式你有一個預檢的效果當然是成效會更好啊沒有錯 但是這個不用到修法 這個本來在 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4937.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4940.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們剛才說18條跟20條之一執法會這麼做嗎請教會不會這麼做會不會這麼做 會不會做預警措施會不會這麼做我們會往這方面來前進往這方面來定定之 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4954.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4969.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
因為我們還要特別強調就是說你如果賦予他有主動調查命令矯正以及暫停處分那這樣子你有實質的監理權限是不是更加的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4971.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4989.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
讓人民得到一個保障 也就是能夠真正的來落實這個效能 請說明因為在我們目前的全線的設計第三章之一公部門跟私部門 我們兩邊也都有賦予給它相關剛剛委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4990.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5010.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那公部門當然是發現的時候我們去調查 發覺這個東西不能我們就會做命改正非公務機關那邊也是一樣 會有這樣的一個機制同時會去進行那接下來我們再看看GDPR他們的做法他們在監管單位他是有建立一個舉報 申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5014.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5043.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
處理以及跨境合作的機制是請教我們在這方面的功能有吶喊進來嗎是這部分因為本來就內涵在我們最傳統所看到人民陳情的功能裡面就會有含到說有人會來檢舉跟舉報所以那個本來就以跨境合作機制跨境合作機制最多就是就是有關於涉及到資料國際傳輸我們有沒有要去進行限制那這裡面會有一些合作機制我們現在國家已經有加入GDPR |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5046.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5068.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個方面我們都有加入跨境合作機制在目前來講是非常非常的重要這一點我們要審慎為之那麼當然為什麼會提問這個呢也就是各自為未來的角色是什麼因為我們往前看重大的各自外洩的事件頻傳我們看到輔仁大學他連輻射醫院他都各自外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5070.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5085.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我們也看到包括了健保署華航Iron還有成品都有這樣的事件那麼還有一個最嚴肅的一個面向也就2023年的時候那麼有在暗網的論壇裡頭您是分手 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5088.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5107.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
販售我們全國互證的資料2300萬筆而且他的雷同度非常的高但是到目前為止到目前為止政府只告訴我們什麼只告訴我們說他也不查源頭他只有告訴社會大眾說不是從非來自官方 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5108.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5126.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就這樣子就像是一個無頭公案啊告訴我們說不是從哪裡來的非官方來的那我們當然人民要知道啊到底有沒有這回事啊那到底我們的個資有沒有得到保護啊我們都得不到政府告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5127.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5154.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以在這種情況之下各自會的角色相對的是非常非常的重要所以我最後還是要強調各自會它是多元跟獨立的但是我也希望也就是能夠讓公民的一個參與他們的聲音務必要加入才能夠真正的我希望達到一個公開透明的這個制度所以我具體建議除了公開透明的制度之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5155.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5183.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們是不是應當會來各自成立的時候我們要定期的來發布調查的報告開放會議的記錄甚至有人提建議喔 就剛才我特別講的希望讓公民 讓民間的聲音能夠加入進來才能夠真正的完善了整個的各自保護機制您的看法呢對 我們在第八條版也就設計整個一些開會做成是硬公開的公開透明好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5184.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5210.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 接下來請鄭天才委員質詢好 主席有請李主任請李主任還有另外也是姓李 李次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5213.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5237.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
兩位好 委員午安這個今天上次在經濟委會也有質詢過這個應該要趕快提出來那現在這個草案送來了按照111年宪判至第13號的一個判決這個三年內 到8月就三年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5238.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5247.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
如果沒有研會就算今天我研會審查完也沒有辦法三讀通過所以這個是還好有研會 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5249.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5277.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個時間其實是要掌握那中央行政機關組織基準法第三條特別規定這個獨立機關相關的這些定義這裡面都很清楚那現在就是說這個你現在是三級機關嘛三級機關這個當初是怎麼樣的考量要二級機關還是三級機關有怎麼樣的當初有評估嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5280.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5300.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
跟委員報告,就是我們大概也看了其他,尤其歐盟,那因為歐盟他們的體制目前現階段,我們在,我還在國防會的時候曾經有跟他們司法總有問過,他們是沒有所謂的二級三級的概念,他們認為說所以不能參考歐盟啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5300.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5327.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
因為他們跟我們的制度不一樣就如同剛剛前面已經看到我們中央行政組織基本上已經訂了獨立機關就是獨立行使職權也是依照法律所賦予的所以在這個角度裡面他不會說因為二三級而導致說他的行使職權去降低在台灣不一樣這個我們當公務員很久了你在司法機關也當過所以在台灣不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5329.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5356.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以這個部分我個人是認為應該是要二級機關既然這麼重要我只是憲法判決說要成立的對不對那你現在就變成是這個三級機關何況他這個涉及到個人資料何況這個個人資料外洩的太嚴重了所以這個部分是一個需要去這個再好好評估的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5357.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5385.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
然後這個 剛剛提到了這個最主要就是說 這個理事長委員好這個未來 因為它是三級獨立機關然後這個預算顏額編制顏額 法定的編制顏額而且是公務人員禁用的目前有沒有一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5387.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5409.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
目前我們按照現在當然如果籌備住戶現在在盤點未來業務發展狀況,如果這個委員會的組織法也成立了,然後個資法也通過,那會盤點整個業務狀況,他會預估所需要的原額狀況,我們再合給所以目前還沒有?李主任,目前有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5411.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5439.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
因為作用法也還在審所以 跟那個無關 人總意思是說要等他作用法到底他顧那個量多少他會再跟我們討論說那個到底這個完成錯誤為什麼呢主任這是錯誤的你現在就應該有一個規劃預計多少人法這個你後面的後面這條你都可以寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5442.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5470.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
約聘僱的你就可以寫聘用人員聘用條例的不需要利用資格的你就可以寫多少人法定顏額的你不寫何況何況現在已經在籌編預算了籌編明年的預算了對不對多少顏額多少人多少經費多少預算已經在籌編了8月底就要送到立法院了 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5472.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5487.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以這個部分還是說不想公開講沒有關係但是按照剛才的答覆這是太慢了如果你說不方便講你就只要不方便講好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5488.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5510.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 加油好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員我們現在來做有關會議程序的宣告因為今天聯席人會比較多 那我們時間也縮得比較短那為了讓其他的委員 有人在其他的委員會怕他們來不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5511.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5535.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那我們今天的發言登記我們就延長到更正更正下午3點截止登記發言3點的時候就發言登記就截止了再一次的宣告那我們接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員沒電來呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員不在來請黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5541.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5570.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
王國昌委員資訊完以後麻煩蔡宜宇委員來代理一下謝謝主席麻煩請個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任請你主任委員午安主任好我長期觀察我國在有關個人資料保護的法制跟落實上我最沒有辦法理解的一個問題是說該好好保護的個資沒有被保護好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5572.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5598.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
常常拿去胡搞瞎搞有一些是政治人物拿去胡搞瞎搞有一些呢是詐團跑去胡搞瞎搞搞了半天責任都沒有徹底的被追究這個是為什麼我們在處理有關於相關案件的時候大家對於我們目前個人資料保護法的法制法制實質上面落實的程度有很高的疑問 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5599.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5628.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
但是在另外一方面我觀察到一個更可笑的現象是個人資料保護法竟然拿來作為違法濫權的遮羞布我為什麼說個人資料保護法被拿來當成違法濫權的遮羞布來我先帶主任看我們派去英國的公使在自己送交給各個政府單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5629.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5653.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
不管是取得教授的證書還是跟國科會申請經費要拿納稅人的錢去做研究上面的學歷啊 是登載不實的但很厲害的事情啊 是什麼很厲害的事情啊 是他登載不實然後呢 他在國科會的個人資料表上面勾選 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5654.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5678.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我不同意公開我個人的主要學歷我看了我是瞠目結舌我們的國科會還給人家一個選項說你可以不要公開你的最高學歷今天你不要申請公職你不要申請政府的經費我都沒意見結果連國科會的這個資料都可以讓他選擇不公開下一個問題就來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5684.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5697.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
最高學歷這個是個資沒有問題但問題是因為個資的範圍很廣嘛有法律的授權有正當的理由基本上都要公開我這個認識沒有錯吧個人資料保護法15條你應該很熟啊要不然你怎麼當主任你有看到嗎所以你有要回答我的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5711.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5738.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
跟委員報告 這裡面有涉及到一個蠻重要的法律叫做政府資訊公開法沒錯 很好政府資訊公開法 來 我們接下來看政府資訊公開法第18條第1項第6款政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一 應限制公開或不提供他說公開或提供有侵害個人的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權 有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5740.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5764.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這個來跟國家申請經費的人他是什麼學歷?這個是公開會涉及到他隱私嗎?是職業上秘密嗎?我多一個好好比啊買拿到哪一個博士學位是羞於其恥還是什麼一公開了哇!洩漏國家機密洩漏我個人職業上的秘密是這樣嗎?來請教主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5768.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5790.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
因為各自法跟政治法目前兩個在競合適用的時候因為最高行政法院也歷次有做過一些判例是沒錯他們說優先適用政府資訊公開法沒錯那所以呢依照政府資訊公開法按照你作為接下來這個籌備處主任的高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5792.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5816.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
認為申請要他公開他的最高學歷會侵害他的個資嗎?我們的個資法是這樣用的嗎?但是因為現在政府制定官方是給持有資料的這個機關是按照這個規定18條第1項就來做決定說有沒有但有公益有必要你覺得有沒有公益的必要?但是我們並沒有掌有這個資料應該是由國科會要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5816.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5830.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
踢皮球就對了 現在踢給國科會沒有沒有 這我們沒有這個職長請委員見諒我最後講一件事情就好了啦人家去申請要公開這個資料 他為什麼要申請 他要揭弊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5831.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5858.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我明明就知道你造假亂寫啊但是呢我們的科技部很厲害人家去跟他申請的時候他說因為涉及到各自法的保護啊所以欠難提供啊你看 朝偉的臉看得都瞠目結舌啊難以置信啊我要先取得這個資料我還知道他造假嘛結果我們的科技部幫忙遮醜啊遮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5860.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5885.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這樣子的程度啊 您作為各支法的主管機關啊認為科技部這樣濫用各支法 您同意嗎當然也跟委員報告說 這邊是回到政府資訊公約法那魯同先生他這邊科技部的函 後面也有提他做出這個是一個處分喔所以如果再提起說要申請政府資訊被拒絕的話那按照政府資訊公約法我最後時間到 我只簡單跟主任講一件事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5886.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5898.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
法學界,很多人各執法事、政府公開資訊法的專業領域的專家今天聽到你站在這邊講,本來對你很敬重可能會有一些失望好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5903.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5916.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
等一下其實這一部組織法那接下來提到這些相關的在我們作用法裡面其實還可以來大家再來及時廣映休息30秒請蔡議委蔡委員來做主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5935.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5948.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這樣30秒不太好睡啦,不要睡啦,直接開始啦好,來請莊瑞雄召委來諮詢謝謝主席,我請我們李主任來,請李主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5953.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5973.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
其實在我們2022年憲法法庭做出憲判制13號這樣的一個解釋就已經很明確的去指出個人資料保護應該是有獨立的監管機關跟監督的一個機制這個其實都不是一個今天在討論的所謂的政策上選擇這反而是一個憲法上的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5975.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5998.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那現在這部組織法的一個最主要的目標就是真正去落實獨立的監管四個字所以本席在這邊其實也要提醒剛剛幾位委員的指教也不無我們必須要去深入去探討因為最主要這個真的是要說服國人那最近大家去看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5999.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6028.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我們今天在審查這個個人資料保護委員會的一個組織法我必須要先講就是說其實它不只是單純的一部組織法它更是政府在資訊時代對全國人民這個隱私保障的一個基本的一個交代那也是國家展現強化個資保護的一個決心可是你反觀最近大家看到了個資裡面你說一些詐騙集團或者說個人去侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6028.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6055.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
這個都已經是很糟糕了更何況如果是政府帶頭 或者政府機關那自己本身去違法 那更糟糕了我簡單舉幾個歷史來看我舉這個歷史來 意思就是說到底是政府要去違法 蓄意去違法還是它的一個法律的一個專業上的一個認知上這麼的一個薄弱這個很可怕第一個你看花蓮 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6056.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6080.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
你說這一次的連署裡面 這些疑點裡面選委會本來應該就是寄出詢問單去通知 當事人來澄清結果呢 花蓮這個民政處 處長直接把整份的提議書丟給互證機關然後叫互證人員挨家挨戶去按門鈴問人家說這個簽名到底是不是你的這個很明顯就違反了我們整個個資保護法第16條公務機關對於個人資料的一個利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6083.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6102.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個很明顯就違法了那第二個就是這幾天你看到藍投這個部分我看了其實也是非常痛心的 一樣戶政系統裡面的資料依法你只能供選委會去做查姓名戶籍甚至原名身份等等並沒有任何一個法院可以拿來做比對的這樣的一個筆記啊可是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6103.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6116.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
負證機關他所保存這些民眾的一個簽章理論上而且本質上不能被選委會拿來做比對的一個依據結果這幾天南投縣選委會自己去發明了發明新招把負證資料拿來當筆記鑑定師看到簽名這樣歪一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6121.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6135.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
比劃多一下直接把它當成假聯署再做一個處理這根本就不叫依法行政這是自己創造這樣的一個規則來做政治上的一個審查那我很擔心的就是說他搞不好他也沒有這個意識 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6136.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6158.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
搞不好這些地方政府他也認為說沒有啦 我就想要比較謹慎的核對出來但是他們不知道這個已經都侵犯到個人資料的一個保護啊另外第三個你去看喔 更誇張的就是這個基隆霸團收不到聯署書 怎麼辦 不是補件直接 就是霸免那些議員的 直接去找副政機關撈資料來造冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6160.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6171.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
還是民政處的處長親自下令幫這個霸團去開後門這很可怕 這真的很可怕那我看看 其實如果很多的霸團裡面這是國民黨的一個霸團裡面可能還是超超黨員名冊而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6178.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6196.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
還是超小黨的名冊而已 你可以講說 那就違規定權交代可是政府機關啦 你看基隆這個機關首長直接把負政機關 負政系統變成選舉的武器庫把公權力變成政爭的一個幫兇啊這個已經不叫濫用了 我不知道李主任你的看法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6197.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6214.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
跟委員報告 當然未來個人資料保安會成立的時候公共辦公室也是全面的納管剛剛也有提到說所有的公務部門他的上級機關我們也會跟他保持一個這樣子一個平台我們在政策推進會議裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6215.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6241.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
相關的這些議題當然在未來個人資料保安會成立的時候也會很像的來跟他們討論尤其剛剛所提到一個很重要的是我們的戶籍法因為戶籍法是一個已經非常久的法它的主管機關雖然說對於這個法有它的一些認識適用的一些地方但是講到一談到說個人資料的收集處理利用當然還是要謹遵戶籍法的相關規定那選法法也是一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6242.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6257.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
其實我是一直搞不懂國民黨到底怎麼了你像比如說謝國良市長那當年其實還是立委的時候還曾代表國民黨去參加個資法修法的一個協商你說當年其實大家都搖起吶喊在立法院的時候說要鎖住個資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6258.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6283.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
結果就變成把這個圍牆給拆掉了他把鑰匙雙手這樣去縫上這個是讓人覺得是非常非常非常不生虛虛的一個地方我們也看到其他的你說像新北市啊就曾經發生消防局的人員非法去查詢各支系統然後給殯葬業者甚至於去變賣這樣的魔力那新竹也是一樣我們看到這個我們今天在審查這一些啊這些亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6285.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6313.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這些亂象我相信今天這不是一個組織法它是一個也不是多設一個委員會而是要建立一道堅實的各自的一個防火牆真正能夠達到強化各自保護的一個效能我們也期待我們等一下的一個主條裡面大家可以集思廣益讓整部法能夠更完善然後對國人整個各自的保護提供更好的堅實的一個保護好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6315.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6343.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
謝謝委員好來謝謝莊瑞雄委員來這位兄弟好謝謝我們蔡議員接下來我們請來還是最帥氣的羅志祥委員謝謝主席有請李主任有請李主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6349.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6367.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
教育部次長葉秉成上個月21日在個人臉書跟校內社群平台發文談及台大的性平案時他上傳的對話截圖包括受害女學生的真實姓名等敏感資訊導致當事人的個資外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6368.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6392.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
那受害學生在社群平台上控訴葉秉成洩露個資並表示我是個人不是你政治操弄的工具那強烈譴責葉秉成的行為受害者學生說你踐踏著我的傷口和隱私鞏固著你的形象跟權力葉秉成你純白的人色潑染著案件被害人鮮紅的血淚 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6394.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6423.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那女學生事後多次要求葉秉成刪文卻沒有獲得及時回應直到一個月後也就這個月21號的下午葉秉成才完全刪除相關的內容那當時葉市長表示他說他沒有想到善意的舉動無意中帶來困擾但受害女學生表示他至今仍然不清楚葉秉成究竟是透過什麼方式憑藉何種權力取得他的個資那保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6424.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6439.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
性侵受害者的個人諮詢是社會基本的倫理跟道德界限不管是在哪個領域誰跨過這個線就不該再談教育談善良談責任那他也認為葉次長的行為造成他難以挽回的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6440.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6467.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
某部分剝奪他未來三十年的人生那我想要幫這位女學生問就是說到底這個個人資料保護法規定洩露他人個資意圖損害他人利益自身損害於他人者最高可處五年以下有期徒刑並科一百萬以下罰金那公務員假借職務上的權利機會或方法洩露個資可加重其刑制 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6467.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6482.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
二分之一那我想請問主任你怎麼樣來去幫忙回答一下這位女學生的一個提問到底為什麼她是怎麼樣取得她的個資然後讓她去面對這樣的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6484.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6499.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個做法葉次長做法有沒有違反各執法的規定那對於受害女學生的權益保障我不知道這個執事準備要去籌備我們個人資料保護委員會的李主任你有什麼建議給受害女學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6501.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6519.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
當然按照現行的規定,因為還沒有個人資料保安會成立公務機關部分並沒有被他納管現行的話當然是由他的上級機關來處理,還有機關本身來處理,這是外向是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6519.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6536.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但是剛剛有提到說刑事犯罪若是說有涉及到刑事犯罪41條那部分的話就回到刑事犯罪如果被害當然還是依照刑事訴訟法的規定去主張他的權利但是如果未來我們假如說未來這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6536.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6556.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
因為公務機關部分也有納管我們覺得這個議題應該會先擺在說安全維護義務假如這裡面是有涉及到說資料的收集使用雖然是有權責的人去做保管但是資料要怎麼樣去做使用它的安全維護控管我們剛剛在前面有跟委員報告說未來各自法的18條 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6557.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6571.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
有關於說個人資料的一個管理那邊我們會再訂授權辦法那邊當然會有一些更細的規定去推廣跟落實就是資料不要超過目的在外的使用以上謝謝主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6573.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6595.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
後續發展不只這位受害女學生她的個資外泄那媒體也報導18位網友因為不滿葉次長的作為寫信到教育部長信箱陳情那聲援受害的女學生但事後卻發現她們的個資無一例外全部外流那這類公務機關洩漏個資那個資會成立之後要怎麼去監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6597.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6618.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
跟委員報告講說是因為有去申訴監舉按照當然現有行政程序法本來就有規定陳情的這部分要保密所以中央機關當然是跟照假設說有事涉及到陳情的這個相關資訊洩密那部分當然還是應該要回到機關要先進行調查但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6619.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6641.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
若以 剛剛還講到 未來當然是公務機關院會納管這部分還是會回到 剛才說是屬於安全維護義務的一環那不管怎麼樣 陳情人的這些資料我們當然 剛剛已經有講到說有保密義務在現有的行政程序法經由那在個資法裡面是有關是安全維護義務那這兩個部分的話 法律規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6641.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6658.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我們應該會在同時來加強落實以上好 謝謝主任希望我們各支會如果加以成立的話相關類似的狀況都能夠加以掌握以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員接下來有請我們蔡議員與蔡委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6669.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6671.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
謝謝主席 有請李主任請李主任召委長 召委委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6678.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6706.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
主任好主任我們今天是討論組織法那在經濟委員會同樣會討論作用法那我想要請教主任那最近台灣整個不管是在公務或是非公務的各自外洩那公務的部分事實上剛剛莊惠雄召委也有去講到最近尤其像在基隆的案件是非常的極端直接由公務員他直接外洩去協助罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6706.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6728.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那事實上剛剛包括羅志強也有講到的包括教育部次長他可能也都涉及到的把這個個資把它展露給大家所以這個都是需要被檢討的但是非公務機關尤其是我們每天都會接到的很多類似銀行問你要不要貸款或者是其他的一些詐騙集團的會打來給你這是非公務機關的外洩 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6733.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6738.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那我們成立了這樣一個個資會要怎麼防堵這樣的一個個資外線的狀況你們具體的作為咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6742.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6769.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
跟委員報告我覺得這件事情應該是說整個個人資料保護管理那個意識在目前現在其實還是比較是屬於表面要怎麼做大家還不知道如何去進行所以未來個人資料保護會成立除了剛剛我提到說有一個六年這個會回收分管有明確目的還會暫時跟中央目的世界主管機關一起來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6770.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6797.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
但是在就現有已經有未來有個人資料保護會監管的部分我們在18條跟20條之一剛剛委員已經特別去強調說對於非公務機關這部分要如何來去強化跟落實那這裡面還有包含說軟性的當然是教育這個宣導然後法規的這個證訊要跟這些目的事業的中央目的事業總管機關一起來合作主任我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6798.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6815.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
對於這種個資外洩事前預防很重要但是事後的懲罰才是真的可以遏止未來再有個資外洩所以說比方說像基隆的事件我就認為說基本上這一些被個資的人應該要提出國賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6817.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6844.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
應該要提出國賠 國賠法不管是國家賠償法第二條或者是第四條都認為說國家應該先行賠償然後對於公務員有故意或重大過失的他必須要在另外求償所以我覺得這部分除了應該大家提出國賠之外我們也要去督促啊到底誰洩漏個資不可以讓他雲淡風輕國家要有代位的一個求償 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6845.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6849.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個應該是要貫徹的好不好要不然你沒辦法懲罰嘛你沒有實質的懲罰他永遠公務員洩漏個資的時候雲淡風輕 好吧 道個歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6859.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6877.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
結束了,是這樣嗎?不可能是這樣好不好?各位我們在第二階段在這個做用法部分會再展開一個全面的這個部分意見我們會把它拿出來那當然在作用法的部分還在檢討那我想在最後一分鐘我再跟主任再來討論就是說事實上在這一次111年的憲判制13號他強調的一個個資他認為說你客觀上有還原而間接識別當事人的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6885.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6899.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
即使資料經過處理只要在客觀上存在任何特定方法可以還原並間接識別特定人的可能性該資料仍屬於個人資料所以我們知道說在憲判制這個13號的一個出爐之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6901.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6921.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
你去識別化的資料你只要能夠再用特定方法可以再去還原然後把這個去識別的人再把他特定化然後就可以知道這個人仍然是屬於個資好 那基於這樣的一個憲判之初如後我們知道說過去有包括113年這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6924.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6928.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
法務部113年的103035 13040號認為去識別化的極非屬個人資料或是105年法律制105035 10730號認為可能間接識別生存存在的個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6943.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6971.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
就是這個個人資料為特定目的外的利用所以又不是屬於個人資料所以有好幾次的一個含釋都排除掉去識別化的資料但是大法官甚至卻進一步的他又更開闊的去講說你只要經過特定方法把去識別化的再把它海撈或者是其他的資料Google的資料再把它補充起來你就可以知道這個人是誰仍然是屬於個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6974.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6996.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
這個屬於個人資料 那範圍就不是像單純文字講那麼簡單的喔不是說身份證我都蓋起來 我的出生年月日都蓋起來這樣就是屬於沒有影響各自的 範圍變得很大喔所以主任面對這樣的一個轉變而且事實上現在整個網路資訊的時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6999.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7015.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
勢必也會變這樣所以這部分你們必須要做更多努力包括說過去的這相關的一個含釋是不是有需要檢討改進的必要請你們都要來做會 這個在第二階段的修法會有這個議題而且蠻重要的謝謝委員長好 那就期待好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7016.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7031.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
好 謝謝 我們接下來請邱志偉邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在邱志偉委員不在王逸川委員請質詢我們王逸川委員質詢後 我們先休息五分鐘好 主席請李主任請李主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7043.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7056.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
主任好 請問一下這幾個條文第一個是關於兼任委員在這個草案裡頭提到準用公職人員利益迴避法 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7058.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7083.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那我請教一下你們的第10條啊 聘這個聘用人員喔你們有一個上限50人的這個聘用人員嗎那這個聘用人員因為為了就是說有些課題是蠻專業的所以你們要聘用各式各樣的非公務員可以這樣講那這些人都不准用公職人員利益迴避嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7087.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7111.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
可以先回答一下應該說 聘僱人員的話因為他本來就有公務員服務法那邊的規定的適用公務員服務法那邊也有一些有關利益迴避的規範因為你們特別把兼任委員說他准用公職人員利益迴避特別提這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7113.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7129.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那顯然是你們認知是不是監政委員其他的因為利益衝突迴避法它本來在它所謂的公職人員它就有一定的範圍像它可能就是說可能是一些比較是主管級的我知道那這個你們聘用的那五十位以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7130.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7153.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
他其實就是還是會有公務員服務法相關規定的適用所以他還是 那但是他不是適用公職人員利益迴避法對 因為公職人員他本來他公職人員就有一定的限縮在一定範圍比如說他是辦什麼採購或會計會計人員的相關主管或是說他是政務人員他才會有那個公職人員利益衝突迴避法的適用那現在設計這些聘用人員的最高的職稱會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7159.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7170.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
你們有主委有委員有主任秘書現在上面看到了那再往下會不會是有聘用到聘用人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7171.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7191.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
因為聘用人員他會將來我們還是要你去這個聘用計畫書然後報請這個人總這邊去做一個核定所以到時候會依聘用計畫書裡面去去用這個相關的這個聘用人員的名稱OK好所以最後人總會核定好請問一下這個主任你有沒有用過淘寶啊個人是沒有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7196.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7219.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那淘寶要加入會員的時候,他一個選項是用Nine的帳號然後你要加進去的時候,Nine的帳號他要求你的主要個人的資訊你的E-mail,在裡頭的識別碼都必須提供他沒有別的選擇,你要加入你就告訴他說我通通給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7220.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7247.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這個會不會是接下來我們這個委員會會關心的事情這部分因為是涉及到所謂的數位身份識別的一種手法但是假如說他的目前另外一個平台直接就把資料pass過來是基於說當事人同意有個同意的外觀那當然是先用當事人同意那當然是要你同意啦就算你加入的時候你不同意你就不能加入嘛我是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7248.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7266.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
有人為了加入貪小便宜買淘寶貪小便宜他就他就給了可是他不知道他給了之後是有風險的因為這也是你們第二條的跨境傳輸嘛這也算是跨對淘寶當然是跨境傳輸嘛那這個部分我是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7267.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7291.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個建議你們接下來這個關於這一個跨境的這種課題可能要特別的關注或者我們的消費者可能會到時候遇到這種事情也不知道怎麼辦因為他不按他就不能加入會員第二個在第二條裡頭你們有提到一個叫教育訓練跟宣導第二條你們有一個業務叫教育訓練跟宣導你們的這個教育訓練跟宣導的對象會是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7296.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7326.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
目前當然會有幾個層面一個是說全國性的那就是一般的Avenis那種通用認知的這一種不管是透過網路啊還是說請的到各個只要是公民這個鄉鎮公共去做這樣的一個宣導所以你們也會對一般民眾宣導對一般民眾宣導 另外一個就是那你們的工作量不會很大嗎就是未來這部分一定要跟公司協就是所謂的公協會去做合作對 這個可能到時候跟數位部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7327.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7352.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
教育部 很多單位都要一起合作因為我看到你們寫的好像都要你們做你們不可能 裡面就不可能有幾個人還要做這個事情我們會用政策推進的那個會議裡面去跟其他的機關好 謝謝 加油謝謝有夠厲害的 以前我們待會要主席我理夢了了代表每一個辦公室都有做準備我們現在休息五分鐘等一下我們繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7817.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7819.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們繼續開會 接下來我們有請陳培宇委員去答好 謝謝主席那這邊有請各自會 謝謝請李主任好 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7834.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7857.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好主任你好每次只要談到各自台灣人都非常敏感我看到有趣的新聞跟主任分享但我覺得台灣很難做到看到那個因應歐洲的這個緊張的情勢德國最近要聯絡他們的退伍軍人結果各自保護得太好竟然找不到人我覺得這事情非常神奇但我覺得台灣一步步走到那邊我們需要很長的時間等一下有個故事也可以跟委員分享但是他們叫我要準時下來這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7860.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7882.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
也就是說個資這件事情確實有很大的進步空間那現在散落在各個單位的個資管理我認為未來我們台灣需要一個完整的個資保護政策我也期待後續的修法我們可以往這裡前進目前我們看到就公務機關來看有非常多公務機關都有相關的新聞傳出不管是警政、社政、司法、衛政、教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7882.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7901.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
只要公務員員想要他好像就可以打開相關的系統找到我們很多人的個資所以我想在未來個資會成立之後我們第一個要做的事情是要去思考如何防止公務機關有不當的個資查閱跟利用我相信在現行你們的對於未來政策想像應該已經開始討論這個部分了對不對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7904.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7919.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那我們來看下一個這也是最近一直發生的新聞啦其實台灣的人真的會就是人民會很不舒服包含南投、花蓮、基隆都有這些民政機關他們不當的利用公民的個資做反霸這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7920.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7944.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
當然這個新聞嗆降的個案確實會讓人民意識到個資這件事情看起來不會只有過往大家熟悉的私部門企業其實在很多公務機關裡面確實有這個狀態但時間有限我想後續在修法的時候我們持續往這裡前進所以要拜託個資會成立後針對避免公務員不當利用個資的部分做防治跟擬定相關政策還要拜託個資會籌備處成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7946.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7957.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
整理出目前你們已經有掌握到公務員違反個資法的常見樣態對於後續的行政機關做相關教育跟宣導這些事情有沒有機會在半年內完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7958.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7984.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
因為這部分其實走在我們前面做的更多是法務部的廉政署因為他們對於所有的公部門有關於說資料不能去做誤用那你能不能說因為他們做的確比較多所以你們可以跟他們請教把他們有收集到這些相關的樣態做你們後續修法如何防止公務機關這個部分我們再跟他們請教來下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7987.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8013.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那除了這個好 下一個來民間 前一張民間企業的部分其實人民也很多疑慮啦從我們一般人都很熟悉的最近有醫院的個資外洩的問題電信啦 百貨啦 超商啦 電商其實一陣子一陣子都會有相關新聞那目前甚至其實前一陣子也有韓國電信外資個資外洩的問題我相信像這樣的私部門企業我們到底後續可以怎麼做應該也是你們後續要討論的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8015.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8037.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那接下來還有一個我覺得也比較詭異的但是確實在台灣發生過在2018年當時體育單項協會有人頭會員的問題然後後來是因為檢調單位介入那個相關的事情才有開始稍微調整那這個狀態我們也很擔心後續也就是說在各式各樣的機構只要他們有各式各樣的資料就有可能做不當的利用所以時間有限我們直接切到最後一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8038.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8066.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我要拜託各自會在針對後續各自法修法的部分只要有涉及大量的個人資料而且有公共安全的一律的私部門都要加強納管的強度當然需要跟相關團體討論收集民間第一線的聲音不要只有閉門造局但我認為私部門這件事情非常重要還有就是我剛剛說的針對體育單項協會因為未來運動部成立之後一定會有相關的樣態可能是我們必須要去注意到的我今天也一併提醒好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8067.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8082.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好那時間還有8分8秒鐘你要不要講那個有趣的故事德國那個太短了就是其實一樣德國我記得在2015年的時候他們有一個德國之夜的航空公司因為副駕駛開飛機去撞山大家可能還有這個印象死了150人 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8084.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8112.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
當時我就面臨一個問題德國的個資保護因為管制的真的很嚴格那明明是精神醫師是知道說這個副駕駛他有些精神狀況但是因為沒有具體作用法去說他這個東西要去跟就是航空所謂的民航局單位去做通報所以就變成這個資訊因為在德國他們是特種個人資料所以就沒有去做提供因為個資保護管制很嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8113.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8130.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以等到後來調查結果就發現這個機師原來是在撞山前一年就已經有很多精神狀況但是他們的所謂人民航的部門完全沒有辦法掌握到連航空公司沒辦法掌握到所以德國個資做得好是全世界都知道的好 謝謝主任 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8132.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8150.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好 謝謝陳培宇委員那我們所有登記發言的委員經與發言完畢 懸答結束委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以順便答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本聯席會 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8151.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8161.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那委員張家俊 謝依鳳 李坤城 邱毅英 邱志偉所提書面質詢經列入記錄 刊登公報並請相關機關以書面來做答覆那現在我們來進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀提案的條文預估宣讀的時間差不多八分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8174.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8201.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
如果有修正動議或者附帶決議提出請盡速書面雙腳主席台畢立於印發現場來進行討論那如果有收到如果已經收到的修正動議我們一併來做宣讀宣讀後我們就可以來進行討論了那為立於整個討論審查法案時候請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座我們現在請宣讀條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8203.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8222.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
討論事項括弧一行政院提案個人資料保護委員會組織法草案第一條行政院為落實資訊隱私權保障健全個人資料保護法制並促進個人資料之合理利用特設個人資料保護委員會為相當中央三級獨立機關第二條本會長禮下列事項一 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8223.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8248.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
個人資料保護發展願景政策計畫之規劃嚴定及協調推動個人資料保護法規之擬定修正廢止諮詢解釋及協調推動個人資料保護行政監督管理之規劃推動執行及協調聯繫違反個人資料保護法案件之處理及處分個人資料保護相關科技與應用模式之設計研析評估發展及協調推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8249.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8274.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
6.跨境傳輸個人資料保護之評估、研析、協調、限制及執行7.國際個人資料保護事務合作、參與、交流之規劃、推動及執行8.個人資料保護相關教育訓練、宣導與人才培育之規劃、推動及執行9.國內以外個人資料保護法制、政策與執行之研究、追蹤、調查及統計10.其他有關個人資料保護事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8275.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8295.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
第三條本會至委員五人至七人其中一人為主任委員職務比照檢任第十四職等對外代表本會一人為副主任委員職務比照檢任第十三職等其餘專任委員二人職務比照檢任第十二職等兼任委員一人至三人主任委員副主任委員及專任委員由行政院院長任命 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8296.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8311.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者專家分別聘派兼之任期四年任滿的連任但本法實行後第一次任命之委員除主任委員、副主任委員外其中三人之任期為二年 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8312.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8326.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
本會委員任期屆滿前三個月或出缺三個月內行政院院長應依前項程序任命或聘派新任或繼任委員委員出缺時其繼任委員之任期至原任期屆滿之日為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8327.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8341.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
本會委員應具有個人資料保護、法律、資訊、科技、資通安全、人權、公共行政、經濟、商業、管理或消費者保護等相關學士及經驗本會委員中具有同一黨籍者,不得超過委員總額二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8342.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8361.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
第四條主任委員出缺或因故無法行使職權時由副主任委員代理主任委員副主任委員均出缺或因故無法行使職權時由行政院院長指定委員一人代理主任委員第五條本會委員有下列情形之一者得由行政院院長予以免職或免監一 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8362.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8389.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
因離並至無法執行職務 違法廢除職務或其他事職行為 因案受羈押或經起訴本會依法獨立行使職權本會委員應超出黨派以外於任職期間不得參加政黨活動並依法獨立行使職權本會委員於任職期間應謹守利益迴避原則兼任委員本人並准用公職人員利益衝突迴避法下列事項 應經本會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8392.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8420.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
會議決議一個人資料保護政策之審議二個人資料保護重要計劃之審議三個人資料保護法規之擬定修正及廢止之審議四委員提案之審議五其他應有委員會委員會議決議之重大事項第八條本會委員會議每月舉行一次由主任委員召集之必要時的召開臨時會議請向會議由主任委員擔任主席主任委員因故不能出席時由副主任委員代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8420.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8427.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
主任委員、副主任委員均不能出席時由其他委員互推一人為主席本會委員會議之決議應有全體委員過半數之出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8430.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8456.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
出席委員過半數字同意行之委員會議開會時得邀請學者專家與與會並得請相關機關構事業或團體派員列席說明陳述事實或提供意見本會委員會議對外不公開但委員會議記錄依政府資訊公開法第七條規定主動公開第九條本會自主任秘書職務列檢認第十一指等第十條本會為因應數位科技 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8457.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8472.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
快速发展提升对个人资料之保护德意聘用人员聘用条例之规定聘用个人资料保护数位科技与应用自通安全集合人权经济管理产业政策国际合作等相关领域专业人员其聘用人额不得超过50人 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8473.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8497.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
第十一條本會各職稱之官等職等及院而另以編輯表定之第十二條本法施行日期由行政院以命令定之挖虎二委員王美惠等十八人提案第一條同行政院提案第二條除將第五款修正為五個人資料保護相關科技與應用模式之設計延期評估發展交流推廣及協調推動其餘同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8498.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8527.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
第三條第一項同行政院提案第二項第三項分別為主任委員副主任委員及專任委員由行政院院長任命其餘委員由行政院院長就有關機關人員或學者專家分別聘派兼職任期四年任滿的連任一次本會委員任期屆滿前三個月或處於三個月內行政院院長應依前項程序任命或聘派新任或繼任委員委員處缺時其繼任委員之任期至原任期屆滿之日為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8528.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8557.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但本法实行后第一次任命之委员除主任委员副主任委员外其中三人之任期为二年不受前项任期的限制第四项及第五项同行政院提案第四条至第十二条均同行政院提案瓜胡三委员罗廷伟等十八人提案第一条为落实资讯隐私权保障健全个人资料保护法制确保个人资料使用之安全特设个人资料保护委员会为相当中央三级独立机关第二条至第五条均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8559.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8579.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
第六條本會依法獨立行使職權本會委員應超出黨派以外於任職期間不得參任政黨活動或擔任政府機關或公營事業之職務並依法獨立行使職權本會委員於任職期間應謹守利益迴避原則不得擔任事業或團體之專任職務兼任委員本人並准用公職人員利益衝突迴避法 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8579.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8606.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
第七條至第十條均同行政院提案第十一條本會為因業務需要得報請行政院核准派員駐境外辦事並依駐外機構組織通則規定辦理第十二條同行政院提案第十一條第十三條本法施行日期由行政院定之關乎次委員李坤成等十六人提案第一條處將手續修正為為保障資訊隱私權及完善個人資料保護法制其餘同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8607.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8627.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
第二條至第五條均同行政院提案第六條除將第二項修正為本會委員應超出黨派並以國家利益為優先之外於任職期間不得參加政黨活動並依法獨立行使之權其餘同行政院提案第七條同行政院提案第八條第一項除將首具修正為本會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8629.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8650.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
會議每兩週舉行一次及第五項默劇修正為應主動對外公開其餘同行政院提案即第九條至第十二條均同行政院提案括弧五委員吳秉瑞等十八人提案除將第六條第二項修正為本會委員於任職期間應謹守公務人員行政中立法規範其餘條文均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8651.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8677.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
瓜胡六委員陳亭飛等16人提案及瓜胡七委員蔡易宇等17人提案全部條文均同行政院提案瓜胡八委員何欣淳等22人提案處將第八條第三項及第四項分別修正為本會委員會議之決議應由委員總額過半數字出席出席委員過半數字同意行之各委員各委員對會議之決議得提出協同意見書或不同意見書並同會議決議一併公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8680.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8708.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
前項委員總額為實際在任委員之總額 但實際在任委員不足5人時委員總額以5人計 其餘條文均同行政院提案 瓜湖9 委員吳思耀等17人提案除將第一條之手續刪除行政院3個字外 其餘條文均同行政院提案 宣讀完畢好 我們條文已經宣讀完畢 我們現在來進行討論請問在場委員白岸是否要先進行大理討論 或者直接進入主條的一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8710.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8731.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好了那我們就直接進入主條啦那今天呢我們司法跟經濟我們這樣的一個聯席其實剛剛各位委員的選擇裡面我們可以發現大家對於整個內部的一個改革其實大家都非常重視但是呢這個條文這一部法令之所以重要其實更關係到整個國際參與跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8733.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8746.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
企業上的一個負擔尤其是根據GDPR它的一個45條的規定各自只有在對方國家具有保護程度才可以去傳輸沒有需要特別的一個授權也就是說台灣如果具備獨立的監管機制將有機會去取得與 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8751.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8763.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
以確保具備足夠程度的個人資料保護讓企業省下繁重自主管理跟這個合約上的一個負擔那其實對加入國際隱私論壇組織裡面也是很大的一個注意這變成說組織法如果健全我請問一下 如果健全的話未來你不僅能夠去參與還能讓台灣在國際隱私治理中有這個話語權 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8780.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8804.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
接下來我們繼續去做一個主條因為本案是制定案我們處理名稱跟十三個條次的一個序列首先我們來先處理名稱每一個提案裡面各提案的名稱都相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8805.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8826.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那對於名稱的部分 在場委員有沒有其他不同意見沒有意見如果沒有的話 我們就按照行政院的提案通過好那另外呢 主席 那個你剛剛問我一項問題 不過沒關係啦因為我剛剛本來是要講大體討論的部分 你已經進入到主條沒關係 我等一下會讓大家 大家暢所欲言 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8826.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8854.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
好好好 那沒關係因為聚焦的部分等一下就是審到條文的部分我再把剛剛我想要講的東西提一下就好我就不耽誤主席的進度好 沒問題我們今天其實這十二個條文裡面就是第三條跟第十條有一點分歧那其他的部分我看這個大家都幾乎都有共識每一個版本我們來做一個對照的話我們像第一條第一條請大家看到第十九頁那行 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8856.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8875.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
現場的委員有沒有其他不同的意見沒有來鄭天才委員這個第一條第一條最主要就是這個獨立機關是相當中央的三級獨立機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8879.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8886.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
因為原來現行的個人資料保護法是法務部主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8887.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8913.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
法務部主管最起碼法務部他還可以以這個法務部二級機關本來是一開始是法務部一開始是在法務部後來才移到那邊去不管是法務部或是國發會都是二級機關那現在既然這麼重要而且要獨立機關現在是把它弄成這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8916.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8942.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
三級機關的獨立機關所以我是認為既然各自這個外洩的這麼嚴重所以這個部分我認為應該是要還是要二級機關不然的話他怎麼去協調相關的各部會二級機關呢何況掌握主管掌管這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8944.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8945.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這麼多的個資的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8947.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8975.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
除了內政部有衛福部還有其他很多的部會都有所以我認為這個應該要中央的二級獨立機關好 謝謝鄭噴財委員我知道其他委員有舉手要發言我們第一條其實在講設定的目的跟組織的性質我們這麼多版本裡面提出來都是三級機關如果鄭委員你就對於你有其他的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8978.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8983.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
第一條我們在場委員還有沒有其他不同的意見那如果沒有我們就按照行政院的提案通過了然後接下來我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9004.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9019.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
是嘛 我就告訴大家 我們今天啦 政委我就把所有的版本 包括行政院還有各個委員 主條審查的 我就一堆版本給大家看還有人事行政總署說明一下來 機關請說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9023.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9035.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好 好好 給你們表達請機關做說明一下好不好好 謝謝委員一來剛剛也有說明在中央行政組織計準法對於獨立機關就是依法律這個獨立行使職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9038.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9062.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
固然當然是我們剛才講說這邊設三級但是因為它是拉到行政院的那個層次下去設跟以往其實以往也有曾經有在討論說是不是要在法國部或甚至那時候各自法院在國發會的時候由他們往下設三級但是都說這樣子好像二級之下又三級好像不高所以後來有在做討論因為畢竟是拉到行政院的這個層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9064.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9091.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
但是他是獨立行使職權院長也不可以去干涉他的那個職權的判斷那一來剛剛也提到說這個憲判也希望三年內所以我們當然是也期盼說大院委員能夠支持就是我們讓他先趕快先快速的能夠把他先成立起來那用這樣的一個職權上面的一個設計我們覺得目前現在來看的話應該可以先做組織上面這樣的一個開展以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9091.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9093.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 接下來請吳斯耀文發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9095.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9121.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
剛剛鄭天才委員的垂詢其實我在我今天的質詢當中我其實也有提到就是說當然如果二級機關在我們的原額組織調配的過來我也支持可以到二級機關但現在我們面臨到的困境是憲判我們必須有期限要成立第二個與其說它的層級更重要的是我們需要一個中立獨立而且專業的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9122.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9142.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
對不對所以說我是可以接受先求有再求好那更重要我要跟天才文分享就是說重要是我們需要一個獨立的機關我反而認為什麼外掛在某一個部會之下那樣子也不符合歐盟的GDPR的規範所以另外是一個專責的Committee |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9143.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9155.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
他有中立性有專業性有獨立性這反而是更重要的二級或三級我固然有我自己的想法但是在現判的這個期限內我是懇請大家可以先支持現在的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9159.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9174.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
好 謝謝 其實我在去年2024年剛上任的時候我就已經提出我的版本個人資料保護委員會的組織法那我的當時的看法也是採用二級機關那但是也確實像如同施耀委員剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9175.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9200.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
二級機關現在確實你要調動到原額上有一些困難所以三級是比較快能夠完成同時也符合憲法法庭的意旨同時也是能夠盡快運作起來的所以這一次今天沒有把我的版本納進來那我也接受啦但我也想要強調是這件事情恐怕是盡快的去動起來讓這個組織能夠動起來讓個人資料保護能夠做得更好我認為是更重要所以我也懇請各位就支持行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9202.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9227.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好 謝謝 其實剛正委員的 等一下 剛他的這些意見其實不是只有你的意見 你看我看那個沈發威委員 蕭若文委員甚至我個人的看法 其實我們都趨近那我們都希望這樣的一個機關裡面 它結構上是獨立然後它組成上更多元 然後整個程序上是透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9228.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9244.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
在我的立場,我只能把每一個版本拿出來審我不會無中生有給一個版本出來來,那是不是如果發言都已經,大家沒意見了齁這第一條,來我又聽你講,這條我是同歸的,我多給你多給你發現一下,來通啦,你講那個通啦既然有委員說曾經提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9256.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9283.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
然後也認為支持這個改二級機關直接改就很容易啊 跟那個怎麼會做不到不是啦 現在我跟大家說明現在改就做到了現在我不是這樣子意見寶貴但是呢就是說我必須要按照程序來提出的版本就是這一些我只是通過以後你願意發言我繼續讓你發言好不好 因為大家都 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9285.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9303.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
都很對這一部法令大家都非常重視接下來我們就進入第二條第二條是管理事項的部分請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9305.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9321.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過接下來第三條就是首長副首長的職稱跟這些官職等委員的人數任期任命應具備的專業資格部分請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見請吳斯亞委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9325.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9350.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
等一下審判會委員應該也因為我的意見跟他質詢的意見是一樣的這一條是我們的Committee的組成那組成你們定的是你們比照核安會是5到7人那你為什麼不去學習非安會那是運安會是9到11嘛那你看看你第三條的第四項你所寫的領域別我們要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9351.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9364.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
你自己寫的領域別需要的專家就剛好11項而且我一定要強調個資這件事情個資的保護它一定會因應時代的改變有更多面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9365.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9383.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
就像我們現在是數位科技數位的經濟一定會更多所以你第3項第4項裡頭你自己另立的這些領域別就已經是10項11項了雖然我知道你在第8項第8條裡面有寫到說未來在開會審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9385.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9402.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
個案或者是這個各自政策的時候都可以再找專家學者來練習但如果我們做得到的話9到11位我相信應該是很most welcome才對吧在我們常態的這個委員的組成就可以人數更多領域更廣更能夠讓多元的意見跟專業可以含納 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9406.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9429.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以我個人是建議是不是9到11位是一個合宜的或者是你要5到11位也是可以啦或是7到11位,我重點是希望他可以到那個頂啊天花板高啦這個是我的看法,我看發會委員應該是差不多意見或者是再請主任回答,因為我剛剛質詢時間完了,您來不及回答這一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9431.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9453.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
請李主任做一個說明因為今天很多委員其實都提到這個問題你這個整個委員會專業裡面確實是包山包海你5到7個人是不是真的有辦法去涵蓋所有的專業來 請說明主席 我講一下程序是不是吳宗憲委員也有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9454.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9473.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
大家先把對第三條的意見講完之後再請一起回答吳中介委員我們先把所有的委員的意見我們來做一個爭點的整理我想說齁我跟這部分跟那個吳世耀委員提的也差不多啦因為我還是覺得說因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9475.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9499.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
委員是5到7人啦 這個人數會不會太少你像運安是9到11人 然後不當黨產委員會是11到13那這個卻5到7 而且他我們剛剛講那幾個委員會是處理特定事項耶那今天這個是處理通案性的全國的事項那他人數卻那麼少 這是我第一個要提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9499.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9519.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那第二個我要提到的是其實我們剛剛在講到第一條因為我覺得主席這樣強行讓他通過也很奇怪因為我覺得沒有啦 我都有強行我都問大家的意見 我有強行我都跟你們講得爽耶沒關係 大家都有意見剛剛很多也都說支持其實在二級會比較好嘛那是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9522.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9548.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
不是啦 其實我說真的啦我們也知道大家心裡在想什麼啦二級跟三級你就差在立法院的監督嘛我想說大家心裡都知道差在哪裡啦沒有沒有 我覺得大家都知道我們不要把話說得很難聽啦但是好沒關係喔 但是我的意思就是說二級跟三級他還是差在立法院得否監督嘛那我們的立場 我知道大家立場也是都希望說好好監督行政機關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9550.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9575.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我想我們不是護航我是監督啦所以我還是覺得說但第一條我還是希望說應該是放在二級的獨立機關那這樣子可以讓立法院能夠多監督那你放在三級的話那變成說立法院也沒有監督的機會那第二個我要提到就是說因為個資跟全國人民的關係太重大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9576.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9604.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
真的太重大了那你今天他的各自委員你又設計的人數又非常少只有五到七人然後裡面又有四個人是院長直接指定所以你不管是七分之四還是五分之四都等於是過半由院長決定所以我還是覺得這個數字是不妥的你第三條你五到七人這個數字不妥 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9605.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9621.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
而且院長決定指定的就過半而且過半他就可以做出決議那再來就是立法院也因為他是第一條他規定的是中央三級獨立機關所以立法院也沒有辦法監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9622.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9647.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
所以我認為這個委員會管的事情是人民這麼重大的事那立法院又沒有辦法監督而且院長指定的又是直接過半的人數那他還能夠獨立嗎這是我的一個想法啦所以我認為第一條的三級獨立機關我覺得是有問題的第二個第三條五到七人其實也人數也太少 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9648.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9672.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
因為我一般來說我都覺得我們國家的行政機關太膨脹了但是在這邊我反而認為五到七人是過少那對於人民的保障是不夠的好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那其實我主持很不夠威力但是我必須要說明你那個五到七人太少其他委員也有相同的看法這個都沒有拿出來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9673.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9687.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
第二個也沒有要讓他火速通過都沒有我今天是剛好這些版本你稍微我也稍微我只能針對這些版本除非有人提出修正所以我剛也讓大家暢所欲言通過以後中央電視台要再表達一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9688.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9707.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
話也讓你表達 這個不要誤會 這個不要誤會這個是 大家都很清楚啦 這個是2022年憲法法庭這樣的一個誡命這變成我們立法院的一個義務啦那這也是對我們民眾的一個非常大的一個保障啦所以大家不要誤會來 接下來 其他委員 我們請審判會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9711.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9730.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
主席各位同仁我剛才有跟這個我們的這個主任有在詢問的時候有請教過了那大概有一些部分剛才跟吳世耀委員跟吳宗憲委員的意見一致的我就不再重述這個但是我個人就這個剛才所講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9735.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9758.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
吳宗憲委員所講的有一個部分,在這邊我補充說明一下就是說,這個由行政院長任命的這個部分,事實上像和安會、像不當黨產處理委員會,他們的條文也都是直接,委員都是行政院長任命所以這個部分,如果說是比照的話,我是覺得當然是可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9759.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9764.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那再來這個5到7人的部分我剛才在詢問的時候我就提過說這個我個人認為說這5到7人確實也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9769.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9797.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
是這個我個人認為說有是不是設定的太少了一點因為你光第四項的領域就11個領域11個領域那7個人要符合這11個領域這個最最上限是7個人要符合11個領域我個人也是認為說有更何況更何況這個5到11人這個是這個是都都是符合目前的這個委員會設置的一個辦法那 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9799.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9822.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以在這部分我還是等一下尊重主任的說明這主任說明說當初你們為什麼設計五到七人你們考量是什麼那現在我們如果說委員會大家比較一致的意見認為應該增加委員這個有沒有困難或是有沒有你們能不能接受這部分講因為我們還是對我們來講最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9823.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9838.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這是剛剛大家都有講了,這是這個是憲法法庭賦予我們在三年內三年內必須要完成立法這個建立制度所以我們今天我們也不希望說因為這個人數的部分把這個法案演當啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9840.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9861.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好 謝謝沈發威委員 接下來我們要請陳廷輝委員發言之前李主任你們也 機關也必須要聽一下啦現在看起來 聽起來大家都認為5到7人 這個人數是比較少啦這個草野之間大家這個意見倒是蠻共識我們等陳廷輝委員發言完以後 你們也考慮一下是不是要提個修正案 來陳廷輝委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9863.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9872.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
謝謝瑞雄召委,基本上雖然我們原本提案都是5至7人,但是經由我們在經濟委員會的討論到今天的聯審,其實我們發現說因為我們現在的個資實在是範圍太廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9881.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9898.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所涉及的包括公務單位非公務單位這個部分不是我們在這個五至七人這麼少的一個範圍就可以去做這樣的一個十一個領域的一個家喻所以我也是同意應該把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9899.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9927.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
放到現在各委員會所有我們三級機關五至十一人的部分那我們也希望說這五至十一人他是有專業性的一些這個任命這個應該要把它在我們執法當中應該把它訂得比較清楚而不是五至十一人好像你要用怎麼樣都可以應該是要有在執法當中他的領域別 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9928.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9951.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
而且他的專業變我覺得這是對於在未來整個委員會制度比較重要那你說三級跟二級我覺得只要在我們的執法非常清楚的所謂的一個狀況執行非常確立我覺得這個三級跟二級是沒有多大的這個關係可是我也是要強調就是說我們的執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9953.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9967.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
很重要我其實在幾次的質詢當中我也是提出說三級有沒有辦法去對於二級單位的這些他們的個資去做管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9968.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9996.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那主任說我們未來在我們的相關法規當中我們比較定的更清楚所以我們期待這個部分因為在所有的一個界限當中大家都有對於個資怎麼去管理從憲法法庭的賦予這樣的責任然後到所有最近所發生的個資問題大家已經把它放大在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9997.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10007.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以我們希望主任這部分 執法的執行很重要 謝謝好 謝謝陳廷輝委員那我們第三條 我們就先暫時保留一下等一下處理 預備回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10014.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10041.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
來 機關說明好 謝謝趙偉跟各位委員當然我們目標都是一致的就是要把個人資料保護委員會要把它設立起來我大概分三點先做一點回應說明有關於說一個獨立機關當然還是受立法院的監督啦這些事情我們也觀察在歐盟的法制之下他們認為說獨立性並不是說立法機關也管不到你 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10042.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10058.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所以必要的這些專案報告也好還是說預算的控制這個都還是在立法院控制之下所以這一點先做說明二就是現有的我們的學士背景當然是寫的比較多啦但當時候是因為想要把它寫清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10058.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10080.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那診病的話其實是有四大族群技術類的話就是資訊、科技跟資安法政類的話是法律、人權跟公共行政經濟類的話是經濟、商業跟管理最後跟民眾權益有關的話就是消保跟個人資料保護那時候是想說把它再寫得更多一點免得好像那個用語太蓋過 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10081.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10104.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那本質上當然有可能就是不會說每一個這個目前寫的項目都找一個人只限於一個人可能他尤其剛剛在講說資通訊技術科技可能這方面或許一個人也可以去擔任這樣的一個角色這邊是第二個部分大概先做說明那三有關於說人力的規劃目前現在委員會的委員的人數的這個規劃委員有在想要問說那個背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10109.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10128.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為我們當時也在了解歐盟,他們畢竟獨立機關做了比較久,我們大概分成三個區塊,因為他們的法制是一個人就可以做獨立機關。我們目前國家的法制是獨立機關一定要合一制,這沒辦法操,但他們是一個人、三個人跟合一制,三種面態都有。 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10129.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10155.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那他們的研究經驗是後來發覺慢慢都朝向走向獨任制跟三人就是合一制慢慢變少的原因就是大家有太多的意見所以在效率上面的確會增加很多在做決策的時候的一個衝擊所以我們那時候想說人數先做以跟核安會的這樣的控制的一個考量但是假如說今天因為各位委員對於人數的這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10156.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10160.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
覺得說有需要再去做一點調整那這部分我覺得我們還可以再進行討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10161.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10190.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
好那我們現在這樣子啦請機關參酌我們委員的意見來擬一個修正的條文內容那如果有共識我們再請委員簽名來做修正動議的方式提出啦好不好那本案我們就先暫保留主席我提一個我的建議因為我有提案啦我願意就是我個人的提案我是希望譬如說7到11人這樣我的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10191.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10217.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
好 那先請機關 這個地方 好不好這樣子就符合大家的意識了那今天其實大家很清楚啦 就是第三條增點的其實就是第三嘛 第三跟第十嘛那這第三條我們就先暫時保留那先從比較沒有爭議的開始啦 來 接下來我們來 鄭天在委員沒有不理他 沒有不理他 來 鄭天在委員 你的告見 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10220.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10243.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
因為這個第三條會跟這個第一條有關係因為第三條這個主任委員是職務比照檢認第十四支等那剛才我的對第一條的發言是希望能夠改為相當中央二級機關二級獨立機關這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10249.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10251.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
不能因為我們要提修正東西,就 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10253.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10275.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
就一定要強行通過我沒有強行通過我已經提出不同意見你這樣就不對了我是通過以後再讓你繼續發言我主席只能針對現場的版本除非有人提出修正動議我說我支持三級機關喔 鄭委員你話不要聽一半 我有說三級喔 我是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10282.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10306.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
長遠來講 我沒有反對三級所以不能因為 保留啦再討論啦不是啦 我就第三條 我就暫時保留啊對啊 為什麼第三條不保留呢我回趟主席的時候 你們都常常都回去我是吉利啊沒有沒有沒有 我再講一次啦不是 我們版本裡面沒有二級機關的版本我們現場也沒有任何的動議好 先第三條也沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10308.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10331.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
沒有所以等一下如果要通過必須要有同意啊等一下必須要有同意嘛對啊現在目前沒有但是現在是保留沒有通過啊對一致一致大家先肅靜一下主席再來還原一下主席再來還原我剛剛看了老半天第三條也沒有來來來所以現在保留啦所以沒有通過啊所以保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10335.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10351.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
不是 我通過不對 不對 不對剛剛第一條政天才委員也有意見啊不是啦你先 那個吳委員吳昭偉先聽我講不是 是你自己提出來用的意義那就你要提修正動議啊我跟大家報告啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10352.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10365.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
兩位委員都沒有版本 像我沒有版本我就在這裡聽大家的意見不是隨規定 委員你不是說你是資深委員嗎而且二級跟三級有沒有受國會監督一點關係當然沒有啊那吳宗憲委員要爆謠說不受國會監督的問題來我跟大家報告來聽我說一下好不好再聽我說一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10376.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10393.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我喔 連要休訓幾分鐘 我就要先跟你們報告我是真的很不放心 沒有人要我去通過111年我生活這麼高興的人 怎麼沒有選舉區版本那我人物跟著地頭 讓讓就讓主席 剛剛主席已經通過了跟這三個人有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10398.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10407.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
但在委員會裡面可以說出什麼要修訂東西你也沒有錯啊來來來 第三條保留 等一下有意見再回來第三條保留啦不是 我跟吳委員你報告喔你不要拿這句話摳我 這是不對的為什麼 我剛剛解釋得很清楚是我通過了以後 我問大家有沒有意見通過以後政天才委員要發言我說通過了你要發言 我要跟你尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10427.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10449.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
阿你這反過來說什麼他有意見我強行把他通過這就不對囉這樣講就不對囉你直接講通過我還問在場有沒有不同的意見沒有我們就按照行政院的版本通過不會啦今天才委員我跟你講啦我們真正有爭議的地方在第三跟第十條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10451.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10477.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我怎麼會不知道呢那你剛剛第三條大家講到那個委員人數的部分我也跟你說你的意見跟執政黨的委員的意見大家其實幾乎都是一致嘛那一致的話那就要請這個行政院這個地方看他擬一個修正動議合理啊哇 你們都給他發表不同意見不同意見完以後沒有人提修正案你今天一共幾個版本我們今天一共 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10479.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10497.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
一二三四五六七八啦 九個今天一共九案合併啊我不能你們九案合併在這個地方我去審另外第十案啊這沒有第十案除非你有提修正案啊不是啊 那你第三條你是提我就暫保留啊 我就辦保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10499.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10500.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
你現在說第一條沒有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10521.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10542.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
沒有修正動議 第三條也沒有 而且第三條每個人提也都是現在提修正本議 記掛了 誰不懂程序因為第一條已經通過了嘛你們第三條有意見我就保留嘛每一個人來主持 沒有意見的話本來就是通過不是嗎你就九個版本 你要我通過第十個版本 我怎麼通過第十個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10544.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10565.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
好不好 我們現在進入到第10條因為我覺得沒有提案的委員然後一直在這邊我們一切都照程序我們就往下走有正義的表演保留委員會中心主義不是委員會按照最終發言就叫做委員會中心主義好嗎好 請尊重主席那我們接下來進入到 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10567.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10595.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第四條第四條請問在場的委員有沒有不同的意見第四條如果沒有不同意見我們就按照行政院的提案通過那接下來第五條其實我跟大家報告第四條各個提案的條文內容都一樣那第五條呢各提案的條文內容也均相同請問在場的委員有沒有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10597.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10624.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第六條請問在場委員有沒有其他不同的意見沒有的話就照行政院的提案通過第七條第七條各個提案的條文內容均相同請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第八條第八條請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10626.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10637.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第九條第九條請問在場委員有沒有不同的意見這個裡面的條文各提案的條文內容均相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10638.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10660.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
沒有的話我們第九條就按照行政院的提案通過來接下來跟大家比較剛剛有聚焦在討論的第十條就依聘用人員聘用條例的規定聘用相關專業人員跟其人數的上限有的人就認為說好像是人數太少了有人對這有爭議那第十條在場委員有沒有什麼其他不同的意見來 春天台委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10668.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10693.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
有關這個第十條啊 剛才我質詢的時候啊特別問這個這個主任還有任市長針對前面的條文第九條法定顏額的部分就是需要具備公務人員資格的部分到底規劃是多少人竟然沒有規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10695.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10722.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
竟然沒有規劃而且是現在已經是迫在眉睫了就要送預算案預算案已經在籌編了到底要多少的公務人員需要多少的預算竟然說沒有規劃然後針對第十條竟然規劃得非常的清楚不需要公務人員任用資格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10724.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10750.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
規劃的那麼清楚50人所以這個是完全是一個就一個老公務員來講啊那從第8屆當立法委員到現在來講這個真的是難以想像所以而且齁而且個人資料的保護非常非常的重要既然是這麼重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10752.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10779.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
更應該要以公務人員禁用為主以公務人員禁用為主所以我認為這個第10條啊這個人數也講不出到底是什麼原因要定50人然後跟法定這個有關這個公務人員的部分也說不出來到底有多少人所以這個部分是一個非常大的需要這個斟酌的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10784.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10810.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
請吳宗憲委員相同的我就不再多說了因為我還是覺得說設置50人而且他大量的一年一聘的約聘人員我想有幾個問題請大家一起幫忙思考就是一年一聘的約聘人員他要怎麼樣讓機關能夠穩定的運作因為他這個約聘人員量非常的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10811.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10834.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那第二個就是它是涉及全國人民個人資料保護的事項那這個內容應該是非常的敏感這種屬於比較敏感的資料那也不能讓外界能夠打聽得到但是我們卻用大量的一年一聘的人員這樣對於個資的保護是否足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10836.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10852.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那第三個就是用約聘人員他的薪水真的能夠吸引到優秀人才嗎因為我剛剛看到你們的那個內容就像剛剛審發會委員有提到的說因為他涵蓋到非常多的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10852.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10872.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
還有包括到那個法律資訊科技資通安全人權公共行政等等他這麼多的面向之下他又第一個他委員人數也不多第二個他又大量的用約聘人員而且是約聘人員的薪水跟他的職業保障他本來就不高 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10874.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10895.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
他接保障程度本來就不高 他不像一般的常任的文官那樣子那這有辦法吸引到優秀的人才嗎這個是我想的還有就是 既然他這個過渡期是六年那他是不是應該可以用考試的方式去招募這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10897.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10909.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
我覺得這個如果大量的用約聘人員我會擔心說將來會變成是不是某些特定人會酬庸啦裡面的人是不是真的有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10911.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10937.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
專長喔 這個是我們比較擔心的啦那最後我想說其實對於大部分的條文我都沒有表示意見啦因為我不是說要拖累我們今天的審查或鬧場 我不是這樣啦我只是說把我認為有問題的話說清楚那我還是覺得第一條的三級機關那個我還是有意見啦而且我對於剛剛主席認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10940.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10965.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
主席在處理政天才委員政天才委員他剛剛已經表示有意見了那他也希望本條保留但主席的意思是說本條你已經審查完畢了嘛那我對這部分我是表示抗議啦但我不會用鬧場我不會像很多人習慣用鬧場的方式處理那我還是表示對第一條的部分我抗議那剛剛第十條的部分我就是如剛剛我所說明的好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10966.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10970.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
好 很符合法律人的風格但是有一點錯誤就是說你像譬如說剛剛我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10975.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11002.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
第三條 我說叫行政部門領一個修正動議就是我們在場的多數委員認為應該人數上來增加那第一條剛好相反第一條是多數的委員認為說就照多數的意見這樣子我才會說有沒有意義 沒有意義讓他通過一併做這樣的說明一併做這樣的一個說明來 那接下來 來 審判會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11006.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11009.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
雖然有點重複了,不過我個人也是認為說,在這一條第十條,這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11014.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11037.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這裡這個釘釘這個用絕對數釘釘這個緣額不得超過50人這樣子的立法方式我個人是覺得有點突兀尤其是確實這個目前的這個緣額編制你們在第11條說各本會職生之官職職等緣額另以編制表定之你們也沒有我們不曉得未來的緣額到底是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11037.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11053.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
如果以你們現在籌備數的規模四十幾個人你裡面五十個人可以用約聘那不是全約聘嗎所以這樣的立法我真的是覺得說有點突兀了那這部分當然我看你們的立法說明裡面你們有講就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11056.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11069.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
這個所需,這方面所需的人才,不是現在傳統公務人員任用管道,能夠即時就是說,你意思說在八月要成立的話,可能即時沒有辦法找到在傳統公務人員才找不到那麼多人,但是我覺得還是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11073.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11092.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
看這個人事總署這邊有什麼樣的意見我們是不是能夠在這個立法上面能夠尋求一個方式不要這樣子我覺得個人覺得蠻奇怪的沒有編制他卻有一個約聘人員的絕對值這個我覺得這樣子的立法設計蠻奇怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11096.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11120.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
不好意思主席我剛剛有一個東西沒有說清楚就是我剛剛說因為一年一聘他一個風險真的就是他審查的資料那他一年一聘完之後他資料會怎麼處理我們不知道就像地檢署他的有一些約聘人員那地檢署就不敢讓他去碰一些偵查資料因為那些資料他 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11121.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11141.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
他約滿了他就走掉了我們不知道他會拿去哪裡那一樣我對於這個第十條的這個用約聘而且是一年一聘而且量又用這麼大我還是會憂心這個會不會對於我們將來人民的個資會有一些影響好謝謝主席那是不是請機關再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11143.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11169.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好 謝謝昭緯跟各個委員的意見這邊我大概做兩個背景說明確實是如同委員也都有提亮到說一個機關新成立這些人才不可能在現有的公務機關就可以立刻找到比如在我們剛剛所列的這個10個裡面比如說集合那因為現在國際的一些新的ISO的標準也一直在出來跟個人資料保護有關的比如說ISO27701 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11172.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11196.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
2025年的版本今年即將又要出來有一個大的更新在熟悉這種一些新的集合的專業的一個知識公部門當然是找不出來就可能再要去外來外來去找那再參考了幾個國外的獨立機關日本他們的情況也蠻特殊的他們在2018年獨立機關正式成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11201.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11228.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
當時候是一百零八個員額有三分之一都不是公務人員因為剛好在他們成立的前一年我有去日本參訪的時候有問他們的情況他們也很老實的跟我們講說就是獨立機關因為在現有尤其是在跟個人資料保護其實最大的一塊會涉及到跟IT有關的這些資訊他們這方面公務人員沒有這種專才 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11230.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11240.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以在這部分可能我們也是面臨到確實是有這個需求那剛剛再講回到最後就是整個人數的考量本身我們業籌備處組織的編織的最上限是89人 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11246.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11275.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
那現在人總當然還沒有跟我們做最後的這個討論決定但是以未來我們現有籌備處現有的人力假設有的部分的話個人資料保安委員會成立我們這次任務請求案我們就會採測就會一波過去那時候在考量說我如果先以我們自己籌備處的89年的這個思考先去做一個參照處去考量那我們先訂一個現在先訂一個上限先不要超過50 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11276.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11304.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
當然這個人數的部分如果各位委員覺得說這個還是可以做討論的我覺得我們這部分也可以再來跟大家討論說那是不是人數的那個上限控款但是確實是有這個需求也謝謝各位委員的這個指教那剛剛我委員也有提到說就是招聘我們提議之前有跟全區部在討論一個問題說有沒有可能未來就是公務機關本身也要我們公務人員選派有個個人資料保護直系 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11305.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11331.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
就好像說資安的直系我們本來看能不能有比較最快的方式公部門自己去培養跟個人資料保護有關的相關的人才全學部大概有先跟我們回應說因為整個直系的增加他必須要參考很多事包含比如說現有的大專院校有沒有開跟個人資料保護有關的課程達一定的這個數你有沒有辦法去培養出這樣一個人才所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11332.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11357.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這是我們一個長期會努力的目標剛剛因為吳委員已經有提了我們也很謝謝吳委員有這樣的一個期許那在未來個人資料保安會成立之後自己還是要從公部門去培養自己的相關這些比較特殊經驗的這樣一個鑽石人才也是我們的目標以上好 謝謝機關的說明來 請問在場委員還有沒有什麼特別好 來 鄭天才委員這個剛才我 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11362.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11385.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
也提了,就是說第九條就是這個公務人員的部分沒有規劃,這個是這個你們籌備處籌備這麼多這麼久了,竟然沒有規劃所以這個主任不是,主任這個人事法令我也很熟啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11387.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11415.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
所以不必用個人資料 個資的直系個人資料保護這個直系或是那個考試的那個 不用為什麼呢 因為它本來就 如果你參考這個第十條你參考你類的第十條所需要的人才它是多方面的所以多方面的我們的大學也都有這些科系 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11417.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11431.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
既然你不用公務員資格的有這些人所以你怎麼樣去培育你怎麼樣就各部會現在你也可以去你應該這段時間就要去盤點你籌備處成立到現在你就應該盤點各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11435.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11459.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
包括地方政府有這方面科系的有這方面這個職系的這方面職系的專長的就應該盤點到時候我可不可以請他們來這個成立這個個資委員會的時候所以這個就是要去做的部分了 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11460.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11487.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
所以這個老公務員會去考慮這個部分像次長以前我們都是同事啊還有這個人事單位所以這個部分是這樣是一個最重要的就是說畢竟是公務人員的話他對個人資料的保護絕對會更嚴謹更有幫助不然的話你真的是難以掌控難以掌握好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11489.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11495.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好 請機關再說明再說明一下啦 你有說我就給你回應嘛我不是給你演講而已 你提出問題我要請他們說明 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11507.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11524.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
各位委員,人事總署做說明,有關各機關的組織法裡面,關於公務員的正式的原則是會在有一條,比如這個法會在11條,會另外用變質表定制,所以就具體數額不會在組織法裡面出現,這個首先說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11526.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11554.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那至於編制員的數要多少 那個籌備處他有在盤整只是說當然要賀給他要一個程序 還沒有明朗而已那這個是原有的部分那至於本條有關於用聘用的人員那聘用人員當然明顯在寫在一定的數額在這裡面是因為我們行政機關有一個通案的管制措施就是不超出預算人員的5% |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11556.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11578.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
但是如果用這個來如果沒有名列因為依個資會的這樣一個需求他有一些專業性技術性的可能要特別需求短暫可能沒辦法用正式工人取材的一定要給他一條路走那這個路走如果比例太少恐怕會對他業務的發展推展會有重大影響因為這裡才會露一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11578.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11592.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
一個具體的數額給他但即便給他這項數額是最高限也不是說以後的各支會想用多少就用多少他一定要報約聘計畫書這個約聘計畫書就告訴我們要有哪些的職稱多少員額工作內容是什麼他的待遇報酬如何這個要經過行政院審議相關機關審議之後才能禁用所以也不是說各支會他會50個通報來也不會行政院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11606.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11629.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
包括主席總書都要控管他所以這個到在人數的也不會讓他腐爛任運用那另外他雖然是一年一聘可是這個他也有考成他考成的結果如果成績優良還是隔年還是可以續聘所以他業務上如果有需要還可以繼續來續聘那在聘用的時候會有聘用合約書裡面就有各種前移物包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11630.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11630.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
請審判會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11653.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11675.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我這樣大概聽懂了,就是說因為我們這個行政院所屬機關各所屬各機關聘用人員注意事項裡面的第一點你們就就明定就是說各機關聘用人員齁這個其原額不超過該機關預算總人數的5%為原則啦,是原則那你的意思就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11677.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11693.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
如果沒有第十條規定的話他就必須按照這個原則只能到百分之五現在顯然對籌備處來講這百分之五他們是做不到要在八月現在說找到公務人員只用 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11695.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11716.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
只用這個百分之五的約聘僱人員,對他們來講不是說做不到,可能功能會有很大的缺失他們想做的事情就根本沒辦法做但是如果說我們在這邊用比例來定,譬如說緣合不得超過百分之六十、百分之七十那就跟這個聘用機關這個處理條約就差太多了,人家吃五百,你一個人要用六十百、七十百 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11720.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11737.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這樣太多了所以你們權宜之計你們用這個一個絕對給他一個絕對數來排基本上是用這一條要來排除掉這個5%的限制吧大概我是大概這樣理解那這樣理解我是可以接受啦但是我認為這是權宜啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11739.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11750.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
我認為這是權宜,這是在現在的初期籌備階段你過去也沒有這樣子的仔細考試那現在你又要去找這麼多的公務人員來讓這個比例能夠趨近 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11754.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11772.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
趨近這個符合規定的我覺得這真的是有點困難所以我是你這樣說明我是可以接受說那我們就先這樣子通過那未來你們原額也出來了那我們再來看這樣子的東西合不合理不合理的話我們再來提案修改這是我個人的意見 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11775.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11784.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那機關還有郭委員這樣的說明完以後啊大家對第10條還有沒有不同的意見我都已經跟大家講了不然我們第10條就先暫時保留來我們第11條第11條請問在場委員第11條的第11條請問在場委員有沒有什麼不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11808.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11823.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
11條委員 羅庭委員提案的第11條這大家有意見嗎那個 好我是不是這條這樣子請我們機關先表達意見一下11條這有兩案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11832.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11862.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
提案委員不在羅廷偉委員的部分請機關先表達意見一下還有你行政院有自己的版本啊好張偉均各位人就是羅廷偉委員李燕秀委員的這個版本這條我們行政院是沒有寫進來那當然本來說根據住外機構組織通則第四條第二款規定說各機關一起組織法定有得派駐這個境外辦事之規定者當然得洽商外交部後 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11863.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11891.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
派源於駐外機構相關內部單位或是配屬機構來辦理業務並受所屬之駐外機構指揮跟監督固然有這個規定但是因為現行各機關如有派駐境外需求當然是會在組織法來訂那考量目前現階段各自保護的國際業務才剛開始起步我們目前有加入兩個跟各自保護有關的組織當然是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11892.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11914.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
一個是APEC CPPR 另外一個是Global CPPR但是現階段也沒有說有需要有派人在外面常駐所以假如這個條款我們目前因為行政院是沒有規劃說再去加駐這個條文所以我們原則上還是請委員先支持這個條文先不放 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11914.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11929.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
當然未來假如說有業務需求要洽商外交部要報起行政院核准有這個需求我們再來把這個條文放進來也無不可啦當然我們還是尊重各位委員的審查結論 以上我們第羅廷偉委員等18人的提案第11條我們就不予採納啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11941.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11955.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那接下來第11條那這個各提案的條文內容其實都一樣請問在場委員對於第11條有沒有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11957.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11976.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
沒有的話我們就按照行政院的提案通過第十二條實行日期那請問在場委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話就按照行政院的提案通過我們現在再來看一下第三條第三條修正動議請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12010.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12039.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
請宣讀修正動議一更正對照行政院提案第三條除第一項首具修正為本會自委員7至11人後段其餘專任委員3人職務比照檢任第12職等兼任委員2至6人第二項莫具其中3人修正為5人 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12041.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12059.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
第四項修正為本會委員應據個人資料保護法律資通訊技術公共行政經濟或消費者保護等相關學士及經驗與未修正提案人吳思堯審發會連署人陳培宇、莊瑞雄宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12069.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12094.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
針對修正動議案 請問在場委員有沒有不同意見因為這個職務比照檢認第十四職等會跟第一條是不是要改為二級機關會有關係所以就建議保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12095.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12121.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
可是剛剛第一條不好意思主席剛剛第一條已經通過了跟第一條沒有關係我們剛剛第三條是在討論五到七人大家覺得不夠的問題所以我們提了修正動力是把人數往上加所以我們是不是可以就修正動力先來討論第三條我剛才的發言一直有強調這個職務比照檢認第14支等我沒有在談那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12126.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12133.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
既然有爭議就保留嘛我想這是我們委員會一直以來的慣例我們也沒有說一定誰對誰錯但是既然大家有爭議我們就先保留好嗎大部分條文我們都沒有意見我們有幾個意見我們希望這種保留的方式第十條嘛 第十條第三條大家的意見如何不然我就 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12155.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12178.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
尊重大家的意見但是我再強調一次都沒有強行通過因為就是這幾個版本裡面主席如果你們沒有提出修正動議的話我不能去審另外一個版本所以我才照第一條讓他通過一併再一次跟鄭天才委員做這樣的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12183.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12204.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我們本案逐條均已處理完畢 來做以下的宣告本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會來公決本案須交由黨團協商院會討論的時候 由莊召集委員瑞雄出席說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12205.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12223.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
調次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語我們授權主席跟議事人員來做整理那我們議程均與處理完畢我們本次會議到此結束現在三位 謝謝大家 |