| IVOD_ID |
167095 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167095 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T09:43:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T10:01:37+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:18:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0196870f957a01651e6ea9f55fbd6b875b84714b454e174bc541701c7b896d2c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:43:25 - 10:01:37 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、內政部、教育部、行政院主計總處針對「立法院通過之警、消、公、教退休金改革法案之具體執行措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、繼續併案審查
（ㄧ）委員陳培瑜等16人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員吳宗憲等22人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一條文修正草案」案。
三、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「刑事訴訟法第四百零四條條文修正草案」案。
四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法第九十三條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案。
五、併案審查
（一）委員翁曉玲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員林倩綺等21人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百零八條條文修正草案」案。） |
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好謝謝主席那麼首先我想先請考試院劉副秘還有全序部的施部長人事行政總處的張副人事長好委員長是 |
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那麼我想這個剛剛其實洛委員也提到了有關於警消人員的所得替代率提高的問題到現在為止都沒有看到這個部會有提有編列預算那麼當然這邊首先要問一下就是這次的這個警消人員的所得替代率的預算那個差額的預算到底應該是哪一個機關來編列是權敘部還是內政部依照法例的相關修法明文的規定是行政院 |
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是行政院所以就是內政部應該要編列預算而不是權序部不是權序部好 但是據我了解好像現在是不是兩個機關就這個部分來講是有爭議我想因為照法因為法條上面我記得寫的就是行政院要編列相關預算 |
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77.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
91.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
所以很清楚的基本上就是內政部不照顧退休的警消該編他不編所以剛剛羅委員應該講的沒有錯就這個部分來講的話就是賴政府基本上就是不願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
93.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
111.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這個提高退休景銷的所得替代率所以到目前為止都沒有編列預算那接下來呢我想再就教就是循序部跟考試院因為我們知道在去年12月27號其實總統已經公布了退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
公教人員就是已經公布了這個退休金提侃法案那這個提侃法案裡面呢當然我們法條寫得非常清楚也就是這個退休所的替代率會回到就是112年的水準那麼就這個部分來說其實最重要的目的就是希望能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
135.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
161.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
在107年退休金年改的方案当中能让退休公教人员的权益能够让他止血停损所以我们并不是恢复到107年而是考虑到现在的物价的上涨各方面的因素所以我们将所得替代率恢复到112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
162.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
189.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那麼這個法公布了之後事實上本席發現這個全區部那麼日前所做的這個所發布的新聞稿那麼竟然會認為說在針對113年跟114年已經退休的公教人員他們已經被扣掉的這個退休金那麼為什麼不能夠發還給他們對於他已經易扣的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
190.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
已經預扣退休金的差額這個部分難道不應該要依法依照我們的公務人員的退休之前撫恤法第37條的規定它基本上就已經回溯到112年了那麼請問考試院還有全區部你們是怎麼樣依法解釋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
238.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個事的關鍵點是在這個法律新修正的法律哪一天生效那因為總統是12月26號公佈28號生效那在修正的條文中並沒有追溯生效的條文所以在等於是說在12月27號以前我們全巨部這邊不只是全巨部就是我們整個退休金的發放就依照舊法 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
257.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那從生效後適用新法所以它的效果現在的修正文字效果會變成從新法生效起恢復到112年的好 謝謝秘書長剛剛說明我要講的就是你們讀條文你要從第一項開始一直往後讀到第六項 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
279.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你第一項裡面基本上本來就講的本法公佈施行前退休生效者的每月退休所得就是於本法公佈施行後不得超過一替代率上限計算的金額所以我們是修單37條的第6項而且在這個條文裡面本來就已經有了這個回溯的意思否則的話不會講說這個付表從113年之後不再適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
283.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
311.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那麼同時也講所有的退休之前跟之後就在本法公布施行之前或之後的所有的退休人員他的所得替代率就是停留在112年的這個標準那我們在整個的當時修法的討論的過程當中是非常清楚的可是現在變成你全序部你自己做了曲解的這樣的一個法律的解釋我們不這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
314.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
340.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
給非常多的法學專家看大家不會解釋成像你們這個樣子的說這個已經把這個現在的退休公教人員已經扣掉的113年跟114年的這個退休金差額竟然可以政府自己扣在那裡不發還你們知道這叫什麼嗎這叫做公法上的不當得利呀你們扣這筆錢是沒有法律上的原因的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
341.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
360.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
如果所有替代率都恢復到112年這個對基金損害財富損害比較大的部分我們都願意依法執行的話其實沒有必要去在小地方做這樣的處理但是事實上你的說法就是你為什麼要在這個地方去做歪曲法律的解釋所以這是本心非常感到 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
361.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
378.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
真的看到考试院跟全序部你们的态度我非常的痛心是很多的公教人员都认为说考试院跟全序部难道不应该是所有的公教人员的大家长吗就你们完全没有爱护公教的这样的一个心情然后呢动不动 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
379.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
393.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
都是在做這個違反整個法律立法者當時修法本意的一個解釋同時來你們接下來說現在的這個之後的新的審定函你們會什麼時候發 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
406.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
大概需要六個月的時間為什麼需要這麼長的時間現在的系統不是就已經在了嗎系統需要修正系統需要這麼長的時間嗎這明明我跟你講現在的新的發的審定函非常簡單就是未來所有的公交人員退休金的支領就是以112年的所得替代率為準你理論上你這個審定函113年以後的人沒有112年那個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
423.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
113年没有122年的数字因为113年以后退休的人他不会有一个112年的数字不是就是以112年的为准所以如果说他现在也是未来不管任何时候退休的人都要使用的所以这个系统要重新去处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
439.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
444.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你們本來就在112年就有個系統就有個參數所以我覺得你們現在是把事情複雜化他基本上就是簡單的修一個參數就可以了他不需要像你們這樣還要重新再開發個系統再製作個系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
463.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我本心認為說你們現在就是故意在拖延時間我們不用故意拖延時間我們要讓公務同仁有合理的執行時間然後宣告我們這次的退休金提侃法案是違憲這個是兩個分開的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
489.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在我看來這就是一件事我們要讓現在的公務同仁有合理的執行時間而且我們也參考了107年年改的重新核算時間跟去年警察人士條例之後我們重新核算的時間這個半年推估是合理的是跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
490.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
519.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好 那這半年裡面你們多扣的這些退休公教的退休金你們要連本帶利還給他們嗎他們的錢就不是錢你們退服基金你們認為說你們繼續撲的錢才是錢嗎如果後面審定出來之後該補的當然要補但是委員您剛剛講113 114年這個部分如果當時立法原意上有希望追溯到113年因為要生效的話在我們的原本的條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
520.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
536.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就已经规定的清清楚楚了现在本席不在这边跟你再讲这个事情为什么因为这是非常清楚在我们所有的法案当时修正讨论当中以及从我们的第37条38条从第一项读到最后一项 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
537.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
就是所有退休在本法公布施行前退休和之後退休的人所得替代率就是停在112年因此你之前給人家多扣的退休金本來就應該要發還好 那麼當然就是我本身知道你們現在跟行政院一樣就是提起釋憲之後反正能不動就不動所有的審定函然後都能夠拖拖半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
562.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
585.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們會透過其他的方式我們會要求如果說你們認為說你們這樣子的退休審定還半年才做出來是合理的話那我們來看看你們未來是不是這個考試院其他的預算的部分我們也讓你拖個半年啊你都不要有錢花啊這不是這說起來是很荒謬的一件事情明明就是個簡單的事可是你們今天要故意把它搞得很複雜然後政治化你們的心中還有軍公教嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
590.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
601.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
重新審定真的需要時間委員施部長您還是大學教授然後來轉任藉調當政務官你不是不知道這些公教人員的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
602.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
617.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
但是呢 本席認為說你在很多的這個議題特別是在退休金改革的議題處理上面你都沒有將心比心而且呢 處處是刻薄這些公教人員對不對 法律的解釋不是你詮訊部的解釋我們的立法已經清清楚楚了我想我們今天還可以硬拗拗成這個樣子讓本席真的是非常的感慨喔我不好是講說你們做的這樣行為非常的無恥 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
632.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
654.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們的生肖日就寫得清清楚楚的生肖日並沒有去追溯到前面去跟委員做這樣的報告我們沒有要拖半年委員如果妳了解行政事務可以去多問一下我們之前都是用這種標準的作業程序在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
654.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
671.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我也去问了但是这是一个非常非常复杂的一个程序基本上不需要这么久的时间好那接下来我要问的就是说你现在依照警察条例另外审议的推出所的替代率你们说已经完成了37790人的案件的审议是所有符合资格的都已经审议完成了吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
671.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
根据内政部给我们的解释符合的资格我们就进行审定那请问这次的有关于内政部移民署的相关人员有没有适用我想这是内政部的解释他并不适用那所以现在就是对于内政部移民署里面的相关人员他们基本上这个不在你们这次合法的推出审定函里面是吗是的根据内政部的解释好所以这个是属于内政部的问题那今天内政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
698.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
711.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
移民署沒有在 但是人事行政總署可以做解釋嗎當然如果移民署裡面有原來適用警察觀證他當然有 不是全部這有內政部來做解釋的好 有內政部的代表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
712.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
738.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員好那之前那個群聚部這邊有請我們的警政署針對移民署的部分哪些人可以適用這個警察人員的35條修正的內容那當時警政署有依照警察人員是條例回覆給群聚部就是最後在退休的時候是警察官身份的他就可以依照這個修正後35條來重新擬定他的這個所得替代率那以上報告那所以有多少人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
742.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
743.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我現在是講移民署的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
746.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
770.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們可能要再跟移民署確認一下因為今天沒有請移民署好那之後麻煩請你們提供資料給本席因為這次在警察人員條例第35條裡面其實本來有提到有關於移民的這個相關的人員那所以就這個部分的話應該也要合理的應該是在適用警察人員的這個新的退休制度所得替代率提高的範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
771.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
797.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好 然后接下来的话我想请教的是有关于全序部那么我们知道在去年十月的时候考试院通过了重大的改革全面调高直辖县市政府所属机关职等上限那么总计涵盖了有590个机关3500个职务可是呢事实上就是在这一波里面去年的那一波大调升里面似乎没有包含公立学校服务的广大的这个职员我们是以全界机关为主 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
801.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
805.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
行政機關為主所以有關於公立學校的相關公務員我想這個部分我們目前你們沒有打算要調生嗎一併檢討因為我們現在知道在大學裡面還有高中以下的學校裡面其實還有一些公務員如果有其他個案我想我願意多了解但是我們這次的調生是以特定的職務做調生並不是所有人都調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
828.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
831.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好本期希望說你們能夠針對就是在學校服務的公務人員的職等要進行一個檢討調整畢竟就是現在在整個公立學校裡面的公務人員的職等是偏低而且長期以來都沒有調整所以呢可不可以就請你們一個月內給本期一個報告到目前為止在公立學校裡面的這個相關公務員他們的職等分配已經多少年沒有調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
857.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
865.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那預計未來要怎麼樣進行改革 可以嗎可以提供給委員好 那麼最後一個部分這可能是跟人種有關那可以請兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
868.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
888.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
这个部长跟秘书长可以先请回座那么我现在要讲的就是说本期在这个前两周去参访考试院的时候那时候其实书记官们大家有反应对于现在书记官的这个待遇还有他们的专业家籍偏低那么同时呢也针对就是有关于记录费的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
889.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
915.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那么始终没有办法就提高所以至于现在书记官还有相关的事务官他们离职率很高那么根据公务人员的加挤办法的规定看起来我本来以为是全序部考试院可能会是加挤的主管机关但是目前是属于人事总组这里负责公务人员各个不同职系的加挤对吧对 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
916.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
937.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是 那所以你們就這個部分你們會預計要來調整嗎跟委員報告 這個不管是司法院法務部啦所以是有關於紀錄書紀官的這個他的專業佳績的部分其實都有持續跟我們人種處在做相關的討論有持續做專業討論 來 我們請王富敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
941.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
969.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你知道你们这个司法人员的这个相关的记录书记官等等这些标准他们的专业家籍是从什么时候现在是4700元是对这是什么时候制定的这个法务部知道吗我这里的资料民国86年86年的时候制定的30年都没有动啊是可能要请副人事长 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
971.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
983.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
張副人事長 是本席去參訪了司法院那邊的法官 書記官他們的反應 修這個專業家籍也不是司法院有權利可以修對 他會報告行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
985.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1010.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
然後幕僚是我們人事總署在作業是 所以可以被請王副秘回去之後競訴像你們認為要調整的合理的專業佳節待遇然後報到人事總署跟委員報告就是過去都有這個就是非正式的一些討論那司法院這部分是還沒有正式的函文那如果這個有正式的函文我們希望能夠調升這個紀錄費 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1013.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1024.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對 但是我們就是有一些意見的往返那如果這次事件再正式爆出來我們會行政院的相關的會審機關再來繼續做研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1029.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1041.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
總之我想這個是個嚴肅的議題我希望司法院能夠多幫基層的書記官還有法官助理等等去多爭取權益如果說該調的就要調現在副人事長這裡說因為你們沒有報 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1048.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1065.222 |
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我不知道是不是這樣但是我希望人事總署也應該積極的去調整各個職系的專業家級看起來不是只有司法院是民國86年訂定這個標準到現在很多的職系的專業家級都沒有調升我覺得這是個嚴重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1067.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1086.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
希望你們能夠盡量做調整好嗎我們非常感謝委員利用這個機會幫我們爭取那只要人事總署他願意支持我們的話行政上我們一定會是那個那個毫無延誕的立刻衝過去申請的謝謝好OK那就這樣子謝謝那就麻煩就是人事長還有可以嗎 |