| IVOD_ID |
167074 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167074 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-15,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T11:31:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T11:48:48+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:05 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce03b7144879ba7dbdd8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297c7e4384474ecec015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:31:43 - 11:48:48 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】） |
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謝謝主席本席有請陸委會梁副主委內政部吳次長還有法務部的謝參事三位 謝謝委員好好 謝謝今天我們在這裡審查反滲透法的修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
36.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
59.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那我想兩岸局勢緊張是不爭的事實那中共對台灣的影響無孔不入我們也都很清楚但是我們跟對岸的差別就是我們是民主法治國家這跟對岸最大的不同所以我們的所有的法令我們應該要堅持法治請問三位認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
61.251 |
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認同嘛 對所以今天審查的這個法案我看了各部會的報告那特別是法務部提出了很多關於法律明確性還有罪行相當的疑慮我認為這不是推託這個是非常負責任的表現我們非常肯定所以我們立法院的職責就是我們要把法治工程做好 建設好 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
89.617 |
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118.176 |
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而不能修出一部定義模糊可能會被濫用甚至最後還被憲法法庭宣告違憲的法律所以我今天的質詢我要從法治國原則來出發那我們對反滲透法我們從來沒有反對而且我們也覺得有其必要但是你這部法律你不能夠這個定義模糊所以接著本席就要針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
119.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
140.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
像这个我们有提案这个再来就是我觉得这么重要的法案行政院没有版本好像也不对我们希望行政院有版本那我们就很多委员提出来的特别是针对你参选人针对你参选人你人也没有定义清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
140.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
169.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我请问我小学生老师说你未来要的志愿是什么我要选总统你都不定义没有时间没有人的定义我想选总统那他是总统你参选人吗还有我们很多委员的助理可能他想选议员甚至他未来觉得他想接委员的这个职务他开始做了很多确实是你参选人想要做的事情那他是不是就是你参选人 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
171.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
190.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
人没有定义清楚再来什么叫做渗透怎么样叫做被对岸渗透那如果他是这个有机会他去观光旅游那他是不是然后有一天他来参选他就是被渗透所以像这个部分我想请教 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
193.095 |
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221.071 |
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我們法務部是不是先來講一下對於本席所說的 你看法 你認同嗎因為你們在裡面 你們就講了嘛法律明確性跟罪行相當所以像這個擬參選人 你要怎麼定義還有滲透 你要怎麼被定義是 謝謝委員垂詢那首先我們這邊立場其實跟委員 以及提案委員一樣我們都認為國家安全的確保以及國家主權的鞏固其實是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
221.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
238.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那我們提出的法治意見裡面為什麼對女參選人這邊會有說明其實是為了讓法案更加的完善尤其是女參選人該怎麼定義法務部的意見因為我目前的可找到的法治上有三種定義可是三種定義都長得不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
239.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
264.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那也因為如果從文藝的射程上你參選人會細緻於參選人的主觀我到底想選或不想選最後有沒有一個客觀行為去框定他所以等下像我們一般會用到你參選人以我們參選的經驗就是你可能要去監察院登記有沒有你參選人帳戶不然其他也不叫你參選人嘛所以是不是他登記下去那個算他是你參選人他沒有登記前 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
266.367 |
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279.448 |
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委員講的是就是政治審判的其中一種定義因為在選八法47條之三的立法理由其實有提到另外一種定義因為這個條文有擬參選人他講的是選舉公告之日起依依政治審判規定報竟監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
281.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
299.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
報警監察院許可設立政治限定專務之人這個是 這個是這個政治憲法的定義對啊 其實這個它也有定義所以這個當然我們在討論的時候就進入委員會討論的時候我們要用什麼定義這可以討論但是最重要就是不能沒有 沒有界限的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
301.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
325.436 |
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我們是贊成要訂就把它明訂好對 要明訂 對 這一塊那再來就是滲透呢 怎麼樣叫滲透有什麼明確的定義 怎麼樣叫滲透所以今天到大陸旅遊 算不算滲透吃了一餐飯 算不算滲透這一塊三位都表達一下好了委員你有特定指的是哪一條的構成要件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
327.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
347.99 |
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我不好針對我們特別的委員那你們看了你們應該知道滲透沒有很明確的定義啊滲透兩個字因為我們講的明確性原則會套用在兩個地方一個是行政法的明確性原則一個是刑法的明確性原則強度是不一樣的但是滲透都沒有明確指出那你最後到底怎麼樣你可以算他是有被滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
349.235 |
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367.166 |
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沒有 沒有明確 再來再來因為時間的關係對 應該要再明確嘛所以我希望另外兩個部會的次長跟副主委你們要聽 要了解本席所講的跟法務部的意見那再來還有就是參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
369.928 |
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384.658 |
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我们在这个反渗透法里面出现了参与两个字好今天假设我们设定有某个候选人真的有明确的证据明确的真的有被渗透的事实那你用了一个参与两个字 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
385.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
405.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以在他的競選服務處在他的辦公室幫他打掃的算不算參與打掃的志工幫他端茶水幫他做一些事情的志工幫他做文宣整理的那這些都算參與嗎所以這個太模糊了非常模糊這一塊這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
409.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
424.692 |
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我想這樣好了請副主委回答一下副主委你那個參與跟滲透我想委員剛剛講的這個狀況應該不至於啦譬如說我們講參與黑道組織好了如果你是在賭場裡面幫他們做清潔打掃的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
425.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
444.527 |
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那在检方来讲不会把你当做黑道组织的参与者所以你这个参与没有明确定义所以参与的定义一定是你有共犯的犯意的联络如果说我只是说去某一位候选人那边去打扫那个是不可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
473.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以你今天講的很清楚就是你的參與那所以我們在法條中當然我們還沒進入主條嘛所以在法條中這個都應該要定義的很清楚才可以是但是但是目前的法條沒有嘛對但是法條永遠不可能把窮盡所有的狀況對但是我們總是要定義清楚嘛包含我們這個法務部也講嘛有些明確性法律明確性跟罪行相當這一塊還是要確認好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
473.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
495.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那再來的話統戰啦來請教一下什麼叫統戰如何定義還有灰色地帶行為那這個副主委可以講一下什麼叫統戰要如何定義那今天是你這個執法單位或者是行政單位你認定是統戰就是統戰這樣很可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
496.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
如果是這樣的話那起訴率跟定罪率就不會那麼低了沒有 所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
504.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
524.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
對啦起訴率不高啦底下是誰在一直講話徐委員你剛講到譬如說去大陸吃飯這個事情現在辦的主要都是我現在就是講你現在在法條裡你統戰你一定要明確定出來統戰還有什麼灰色地帶行為來你講看看什麼叫統戰什麼叫統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
527.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
539.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
統戰就是利用各種方式去影響和拉攏台灣這邊的勢力這樣喔 來來來 那接著我們請參事貴姓謝參事剛剛我們副主委講的這個這算明確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
547.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
556.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他剛剛講的那幾句話因為委員所槌尋的其實是在草案目前的第二條有一個灰色地帶行為人裡面有提到統戰活動的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
557.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那因為現在沒有實定法的定義啦所以這東西就變成說當然是有明確定義是最好比較好操作也比較明確但如果沒有明確定義的話可能就要從這個法規的意旨裡面再去從實務發展出來它的確定的外延範圍因為這畢竟他搭附的後面草案是有相關的刑責的規定的那在明確原則上面會稍微嚴格一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
581.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
603.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那不過統戰行為這邊還是要一方面要參考主管機關相關的說明跟解釋對嘛 沒有定義嘛 灰色地帶呢 灰色地帶呢你也講不出來 所以這很明顯啦這部法律真的 我們覺得要再精準不好意思主席 我最後 你們請回座我最後 中選會很重要 對你也很重要來 我們請中選會好不好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
611.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
623.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
蔡處長現在我們2026已經進入了升委進階元年你知道什麼是升委吧現在AI的升委很可怕如果今天你看我們王朝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
624.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
645.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他未來他在嘉義很強但是如果他的對手在選前幾天突然因為我們立法委員像王委員他在立法院質詢他那個聲音太多了你只要到內政委員會你就可以收集他的聲音然後AI就用他的聲音模仿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
646.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
673.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他跟大家說假設他說我承認什麼什麼什麼會影響選舉的讓大家本來要投他的最後不投他或者說身體為一樣或者是怎麼樣我退出選舉這種情況有人做了用AI做了這個假的模仿了候選人的聲音甚至講了一些對選戰具有非常非常影響力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
674.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
703.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我请问你们有准备吗你们有在选战过程中因为因为像这些身为的东西他在网络上传播只要几秒钟在Line Facebook TikTok或YouTube甚至IG各方面那我请问你们现在在各大平台中选会你有没有建立选举期间的绿色通道你可以用最快速的你有没有一个SOP你最快速的针对这些非常不实的你们可以马上去去澄清有没有办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
704.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
731.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
報告委員依據公職人員選舉罷免法的一個規定你參選人候選人如果是在選舉公告到投票日前一日為止知道有人利用這個網際網路這些媒體來看播他的身為影音那他可以付費向警察機關來申請鑑識那如果警察機關申請鑑識的結果是具有深度偽造影音身為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
746.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個情形的時候他可以向這些看播這些影音的這些媒體啊來這個請求停止看播或是限制瀏覽移除下架等等那如果是意圖使候選人當選或不當選的這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
749.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
763.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
公職選辦法104條就有5年以下那如果是用身為影音我不是在問這個耶我想王委員聽得懂啊選前之夜啊那個一傳下去我還什麼請警還取警察機關還什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
764.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
791.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那整個都要翻盤了你不馬上出來有一個綠色通道澄清我告訴你隔天那個選舉就很大問題你看我們召委點頭了我要的不是你這個答案你大概沒聽懂啊但是我請你要帶回去因為今天我們這個主委副主委沒有來所以你因為我也不好占用大家太多時間這個是非常非常嚴重的問題非常非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
793.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
811.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那我們中選會如果沒有辦法的話進入AI時代我們這個選舉真的會很亂而且這一些在網路上這種伪造身為伪造的然後這樣在這樣傳播在關鍵時候就絕對出問題趙偉你認同啦 認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
817.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
836.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
他要回答包委因為這個如果涉及擬參選人候選人的這個沒有擬參選人我告訴你擬參選人沒有那麼激烈一定是選舉選舉前三天甚至前一天就是候選人對候選人也是包括因為是不是這個散佈的這些影音是不是真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
837.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
851.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
候選人應該是最清楚的後選人如果馬上提出來的時候你們的SOP有多快我們要知道是這個還有你有沒有辦法馬上官方的澄清我剛剛一直講選舉期間你的綠色通道 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
853.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
872.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
對 現行的機制就是有沒有 你回答我有沒有現行選務機關是就針對選務機關的錯假訊息有一個綠色通告所以你的意思是警察的職權那如果是候選人 涉及到候選人的不實的這些謠言或是不實的 散佈謠言或是不實的事項是要由候選人向警察機關來申請見識 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
877.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
905.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那他這個廣遍媒體受到這些所以不是中選會的職權那所以你的意思是我要問警察機關你有沒有綠色通道可以來公告主持這個選舉的這種狀況剛剛提到就是104條如果說有這個機制就是如果是利用身為影音來意圖使人當選或不當選來散佈謠言傳播不實之事的這個是有刑責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
906.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
911.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
至於說什麼是身為營運事由我插話一下他現在委員會來問的是發生他提議之後你們有什麼作為然後能不能遏止是水馬鑽進去找審判單位還是你們有權利來去做歐北人說的有辦法趕快去下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
932.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
944.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
現在這個問題是這樣對啊 甚至你要官方你有這個公權力你可以讓大家知道 欸 這個是像你剛才說的好選人最重要嘛這個是圍罩的 這是真正的價值嘛但是好選人知道的時候要求助他們中選會的時候中選會沒有一個機制出來欸 沒有SOP啊還有那個速度很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
961.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
974.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我覺得不管帶一桶都一樣要有好的人才 不可以受到這種的應用他現在 你問的時候是說如果發生這個事情你有多久的時間 可以去寫下來不管你是同步帶一個單位是要公平的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
988.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1011.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
不要讓人家後輩來心肝壞的企業用AI來人家無聊來人家惡惡賊賣這樣不好現在他說的意思是這樣沒有啦 你們現在還沒有啦要加油啦 是不是我想應該是這個答案 好不好加油啦我現在也沒答案啦今天沒答案不表示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1012.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1014.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
下個會期你們業務報告的時候這個一定會是很重要的重點 |