| IVOD_ID |
167073 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167073 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-15,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T11:23:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T11:31:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce00ffebcc9ddaae28e8a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297e2b1819fafab4f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
李坤城 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:23:42 - 11:31:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】） |
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謝謝主席我們請這個陸委會 梁副主委梁副主委 陸委會委員好副主委好這個根據我們的反滲透法的第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
41.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
這個有對於這一個境外敵對勢力啊滲透來源還有這一個機關的組織等等之類的都有做定義嘛對不對那我請教一下副主委根據反滲透法的規定那國安局之前有提出一個報告利用黑道幫派地下錢莊 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這個掩護公司公廟團體民間社團這個五大管道來滲入這個台灣那請問一下那這些是不是也是反滲透法要所規範的一個對象是 但是他可能是可能是第二層或第三層可能是層層下達指令就是滲透來源下面的還有境外敵對勢力所屬組織機構或其派遣之人這個算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
84.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我認為是算的啦但是在證明上面不太容易對 這就是問題所在我們明明知道說中共滲透的很嚴重那這個國安局的報告裡面他也說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
85.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
109.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
他透過這個國安、勤工、統戰部門透過退役軍人、現役軍人、政府機關、輕鬆組織下面的這些管道來進行滲透那我們也看到了這個相關的報告就是說反滲透法施行到現在6年那檢察機關累計起訴了127人那判決確定有罪才5個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
110.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
122.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
平均的刑度只有三個月到六個月那這等於是說滲透的情況這麼嚴重那但是為什麼我們按照這個反滲透法所起訴的人會這麼少那有罪的會更少 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
126.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
145.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
應該是說他的要證明就是說剛剛有講說第二條因為你必須要證明說他的這些行為是受中共指示或是派遣之人但是往往在這個環節裡面是比較困難譬如說我舉前立委羅志明的案件好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
147.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
165.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們看到的資料是它上面確實是由對岸某一位人士指示他做某一些事情但是因為沒有辦法證明說對岸這一位某一些人士他到底是不是在中共的黨政軍職務裡面他到底是站在哪一個位置或是具體職務但是我們這邊的檢調單位也不可能發文 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
170.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
186.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
過去中共那邊說請問這個人是不是你的哪一個單位的什麼職務所以就變成說你最後沒有辦法證明那個指示的來源他的身份所以往往很多案件都是因為這樣子而無法起訴所以這個我剛講說這個其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
190.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
它不是實體法的問題就是說我們實體法定的不管怎麼樣在包含的再多的範圍也好或是怎麼樣它最後會遇到這個核心的問題就是你無法起訴這樣對好那你說不是實體法的問題但實際上法規範就遇到這些問題沒有錯沒有錯好那你剛才舉那個例子我再舉個例子好了講這個馬志威是馬志威他是這個用無黨籍身份來參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
237.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那他一審的時候他只有用違反個資法他是到了二審的時候才用這個反滲透法然後判刑兩年多啦那所以你看嘛有這個落差他為什麼一審的時候是用違反個資法那二審的時候可以用到這個反滲透法那之間的落差在哪裡這個落差就是說他必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
239.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
266.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
二審的時候他認定說他的這個資金來源對象確實是中共所派遣之人所贊助的資金在一審的時候法院不這麼認定一審的時候只認為說馬志文你確實有收到錢但是我沒有辦法認定說你所收到錢的來源是中共或中共所派遣之人但是二審是這樣認定所以就是認定上面的問題沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
269.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
273.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
對啊 那所以我們今天要修這個反滲透法是不是一樣也會遇到這些問題勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
275.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
297.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
因為我看各個委員當然都很關心國安的問題被滲透的問題我覺得各位的委員都很關心那很多意見我們也都會參考那但是最後我們還是遇到這個法院他在採取他的證據法則到底是怎麼樣就是說如果他是很嚴格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
300.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
324.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
譬如說要採取要採取跟一般刑事案件的那樣的那個證據法則顯然現在在這個國與國之間的這個關係裡面你很多事情是沒有辦法這樣處理的那我是會建議說我們的各個機關可以去參考其他國家的這個情報工作或是怎麼處理類似相關的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
325.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
343.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那個案例那而不是說用一般的刑事刑事案件或刑事訴訟法來處理因為就會遇到說我們的這一個檢調非常努力的去查也查出了一些證據出來但是到法院那邊的時候就像副主委你提到的說他們很難去證明說 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
344.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
中間的這個連結性是不是如何去證明然後這個證明的確是受過這個中共他所指示的然後這個關係變得很難去連結就變成說在法院這邊的位置他通常會通過好幾層啊然後中共的情治人員他也不會說我就是某某單位的他一定可能說我是某個基金會的或是某個公司的然後公司下面還有公司還有各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
371.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
389.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
掩護性的單位所以這個就變成造成我們這邊在查查的或是說在建立連結的時候是非常非常困難的所以就是說他只要中間有一個斷連出現了就變成說我們的法院去證明說他的確有這個連結性就會變成出現問題了沒有錯那最後一個問題問你就是說在過年之後那現在這一個國民黨準備跟這個共產黨舉行這個國共論壇那陸委會這邊有沒有什麼樣的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
404.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
411.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們是提醒不管哪一個政黨都是中華民國的政黨不管哪一個政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
412.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
431.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
都要捍衛中華民國那去跟中共不管哪一個單位談任何事情都要站在中華民國的立場然後不可以去涉及到我們兩岸條例所禁止的一些什麼政治性協議或是等等這樣子那 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
434.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
440.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我覺得各個政黨 國內朝野各個政黨在面對中共的時候 立場是應該要一致的 |