| IVOD_ID |
167062 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167062 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-15,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T09:44:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T09:53:19+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce04236bae2ce1a68878a817aa92b948b9c603d53f4e9015297f1150b2f0eab0c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張宏陸 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:44:39 - 09:53:19 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。二、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「反滲透法增訂第十一條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第八條之一條文草案」案。四、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「反滲透法第四條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「反滲透法增訂第六條之二條文草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等18人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「反滲透法部分條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第三條、第四條及第五條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「反滲透法第五條條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具「反滲透法第二條、第九條之一及第九條之二條文修正草案」案。【僅詢答】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
那我先請陸委會兩副主委跟內政部常次兩副主委跟內政部常次委員好其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
40.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們今天在說這個反滲透滲透這兩個字其實是不是就是有點慢慢來沒有一次把你到位的感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
42.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
67.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我個人是這樣子認為啦這個他就是慢慢來啊然後呢他到時候造成的原因有很多種啊可能增加你的恐懼啊可能增加你對政府的不信任啊我認為滲透就不是一次大規模慢慢來所以啊這種事情啊你要去防範啊你要去做有這麼簡單嗎我想請問兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
88.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員說得很正確 其實我們的反滲透法它當初是根據 譬如說澳洲還有防境外勢力影響法那他們是用影響 influence |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
89.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
116.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那所謂的influence它其實就不是一個譬如說我去放個炸彈或是什麼這樣子那那個是所謂在你的思想在輿論在資訊等等各方面的所謂的影響所以我們的反滲透法它並不是一個它跟一般的軍刑法還不太一樣它所界定的罪行又比較侷限這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
128.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
對啦 我覺得啦齁我們常說啦齁 這個工程界啊最難做的就是抓肉啦 抓肉啦那個 吳次長 你說是不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
131.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
謝謝委員指教 工程的品質很重要你就回答我抓肉是不是大家都很會啊對嘛滲透跟抓肉我就一樣啊慢慢一點一滴一點一滴的來啊你要去找到證據你要去找到什麼其實都是很困難的嘛但 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
148.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
167.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們現在已經看到了我們的敵對勢力透過不同各種管道來對台灣進行這種一點一滴一點一滴的滲透然後它降低了人民對政府的不信任然後也製造了一些恐懼 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
168.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
182.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
像他這個列台獨啊這個份子啊列到連司法界都列入了這也就是要造成台灣人民的恐懼而且剛剛大家也有在講其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
185.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個對台灣的選舉民主制度這個介入選舉其實是非常非常的嚴重你看他不用在選舉期間他無時無刻都可以去抹黑一個人用假訊息用什麼的那你說這個能不處理嗎如果你不處理長久以來對政府的不信任感對這一個人的不信任感就會存在的 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
216.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
239.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那所以啊 今天啊大家在討論這個反色頭髮的部分 條文修正我認為啦 樣態很多啦那你要特別舉出一兩樣啊這個好像不大對喔 其實也是舉得出來的但 我們不能夠因為這樣 然後你不去處理我不知道兩位的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
244.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
268.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我覺得委員講的是非常關鍵的其實我們小時候受的教育就是要那個匪諜無孔不入其實現在是一樣的而且因為隨著網際網路隨著兩岸的交流的擴大人員來往的擴大其實所謂的匪諜無孔不入比我們小時候要嚴重更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
269.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
294.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那所以這部法律它的目的就是要去怎麼樣去阻止這樣的這些影響去抓漏但是問題是在抓漏就是說因為很多的行為它必須要去能夠抓得到說這個行為跟對方的授意是有關係的所以現在的這個不管調查單位還是這個檢查或是法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
309.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
在這個部分他遇到都是遇到很這些困難取證上的困難但是不能夠說因為有困難所以就不做這是不行的是我只單純我請教兩位 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
310.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
326.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有人在說比如說現在有一些宮廟會去中國進香那你如果單純進香你自己出錢你單純進香去到那邊有人去跟你講一些什麼話什麼你回來你沒有做這些事情你會不會有這些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
356.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
如果你是單純跟著人家在找你去賺一個賺一個說不用錢去賺錢我的前提是出錢的喔 自己出錢的喔自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎自己出錢的絕對不會有事不會有事嗎那我們現在比較特定的就是說人家在找人家說不用錢不用錢把你交抬譬如說10天8天但是不用錢或者是說你只要出機票錢但是到當地時數 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
358.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
380.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
全免 那這種就一定是有人在出因為天下沒有白吃的午餐 一定有人出錢啊這個出錢的人是誰而已啊對嘛 我的意思就是說啊就要很清楚的讓民眾知道 就不會有大家的疑慮嘛你如果是自己出錢的 不會有問題嘛你明知是備受招待的 去到那邊人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
394.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在招待的場所裡面跟你講怎麼樣什麼台灣不好什麼你回來又替他宣傳這當然有可能你就會誤觸法令嘛這個吳次長是不是啊謝謝委員指教我想這個剛好宗教是歸內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
399.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們對於台灣的一些宗教團體其實暴露的話我們都會提醒他啦就說人家要走進去要拿你出去結果他的目的是什麼還是自己要小心啊那我們也希望宗教應該是自由但不是漫無目就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
439.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
中了人家的招啦 應該這樣講那我再請教內政部剛剛也有委員說如果這樣子接受是不是選前就不要去哪裡 我想請問一下不管是在 如果在選舉期間你接受任何的這種招待除了違反反滲透法之外你還沒有違反選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
441.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
460.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我想公職人員選罷法規定選舉期間的時間其實應該要避免借選然後也避免受到對岸的一個干擾不是 只要是你選舉期間不管在國內旅遊或是出國旅遊只要你付了很少的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
462.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
486.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有對價關係是不是就違反選罷法都有對嘛而且應該不只選舉期間吧只要他有預備犯他只要做這些應該都要受到檢查只要影響到選舉結果的行為都要對嘛所以這是不是兩件事情兩件有關聯的事情你本來就違反選罷法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
487.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
516.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
對不對所以跟這個反滲透法你去那個去中國地方或什麼我覺得是兩件事情吧兩件獨立的事情但是又是有關聯兩件獨立有關聯那你就一次觸犯兩個法啦對不對是啊是嘛所以我覺得啦有很多樣態大家都可以討論的啦那我覺得大家好好來討論啦這個應該要把台灣的安全漏洞給補齊我認為才是重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
517.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
517.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝 |