| IVOD_ID |
16704 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16704 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-26T08:30:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-26T12:45:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:15:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685d64e5377f4e254646425655b8120616fa12e9ca99aa835c00eb78b76d9163d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論事項8案)。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:00 - 12:45:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
550.445 |
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550.952 |
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後面馬上就進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1803.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1807.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1808.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1837.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十二次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年5月21日星期三9時至14時45分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員林委員岳勤等13人列席委員賴委員會員等21人請假委員王委員鄭旭王委員玉敏均參加第七十八屆世界衛生大會立法院市搞團列席官員衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1837.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1865.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
主席蘇趙及委員清泉報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部、教育部就性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡及教育部人事處處長林建璋報告後委員林月琴等21人提出質詢均經衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡國立台灣大學醫學院副社醫院院長吳明賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1867.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1892.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
及教育部國民及學前教育署專門委員王怡婷及各相關主管等及其答覆委員王玉敏陳冠廷邱振鈞廖偉翔及黃婕所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內書面答覆委員另要求其限者從其所定通過臨時提案三項宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1894.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1915.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好請問委員會上市議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好沒有那我們就議事錄確定那本會議議程為處理114年度中央總政總預算決議有關於環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案含包括4項142事案及討論事項8案那現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一位是陳昭書委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1927.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1944.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第一位是王振旭委員謝謝王委員第三位是林月琴委員接下來介紹官員環境部部長彭啟明謝謝會計處處長陳晉鑫謝謝氣候變遷署署長蔡靈怡謝謝資源循環署署長賴英英 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1955.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1978.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
化學物質管理署署長謝彥儒環境管理署署長嚴旭明還有國家環境研究院院長劉忠勇重規司司長洪淑慶環境保護司司長徐淑芷還有大氣環境醫師司長黃偉銘水質保護司司長王育斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1984.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1987.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
監測資訊師司長張順欽秘書處處長梁婉玲行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員李培元現在處理報告事項計130案請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2005.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2034.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
報告事項處理環境部韓衛一百二十四年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結書面報告案一百三十四案一第十八款第一項新增決議三四二綜合企劃及管制考核向下環境影響評估整合與管理之業務費凍結五百萬元二第十八款第三項新增決議三六九資源循環及廢棄物管理凍結百分之三十第三案至第三十六案均為第十八款第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2035.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2053.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
三決議一業務費凍結三百萬元四決議二科技發展向下業務費凍結三百萬元五決議三科技發展向下環境科學及技術之研究凍結十萬元第六案至第八案均為科技發展向下淨零排放科技六決議四凍結五十萬元七決議五凍結一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2056.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2073.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
八決議六凍結五十萬元九決議七淨零排放科技之淨零排放淨零綠生活轉型技術示範及推廣計劃凍結三百萬元十決議八一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之水電費凍結八十二萬二千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2073.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2088.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
十一決議九一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之特別費凍結十分之一十二決議十綜合企劃及管制考核凍結三百萬元十三決議十一綜合企劃及管制考核向下生活轉型環標管理凍結一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2091.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2101.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
十四決議十二綜合企劃及管制考核向下環境影響評估整合與管理凍結一百萬元十五決議十三科目同時四案之業務費凍結三百萬元十六決議十四科目同時四案凍結二百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2106.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2107.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第17案至22案以及第24案至26案均為空氣品質保護及噪音管制17決議16凍結100萬元18決議17凍結500萬元19決議18凍結500萬元20決議19凍結100萬元21決議20凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2125.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2126.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
22.決議21.凍結500萬元23.決議22.移動空氣污染源防止凍結100萬元24.決議23.凍結500萬元25.決議24.凍結50萬元26.決議25.凍結500萬元27.決議26.水質保護凍結500萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2145.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2174.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
二十八決議二十七水質保護向下水污染防治凍結一百萬元二十九決議二十八水污染防治凍結二百萬元三十決議二十九水污染防治凍結二百萬元三十一決議三十飲用水管理之業務費凍結一百萬元三十二決議三十一環境監測資訊凍結二百萬元第三十三案至三十六案均為環境監測管理與品質保證三十三決議三十二凍結一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2175.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2200.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
三十四決議三十三凍結一百萬元三十五決議三十四凍結一百萬元三十六決議三十五凍結一百萬元第三十七案至四十六案均為第十八款第二項三十七決議一科技發展向下淨零排放科技凍結二百萬元三十八決議二淨零排放科技之淨零排放碳費及碳交易制度延期與推動規劃凍結一百萬元三十九決議三 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2203.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2208.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之水電費凍結20萬元第40案至45萬均為氣候變遷業務40決議4凍結50萬元41決議5凍結100萬元42決議6凍結120萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2220.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2222.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第四十七案至六十八案均為第十八款第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2240.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2244.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
47.決議一環境保護支出預算凍結100萬元48.決議二科技發展向下淨零排放科技凍結1000萬元49.決議三淨零排放綠色設計創新技術及認證企劃凍結5% |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2256.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2265.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
50.決議四柯木桐49案凍結5%51.決議五一般行政向下基本行政工作維持凍結50萬元52.決議六柯木桐51案凍結50萬元53.決議七資源循環及廢棄物管理凍結2000萬元54.決議八資源循環及廢棄物管理凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2278.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2298.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第五十五案至五十七案均為資源循環管理五十五決議九凍結一百萬元五十六決議十凍結一百萬元五十七決議十一凍結十萬元五十八決議十二資源循環管理之違半費凍結二百萬元五十九決議十三資源循環管理之獎補助費凍結一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2300.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2316.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
六十決議十四減量回收及資源循環推動計劃凍結一百萬元六十一決議十五廢棄物管理凍結五百萬元六十二決議十六廢棄物管理之違辦費凍結一千萬元第六十三案至六十八案均為 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2317.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2322.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
資源循環及廢棄物管理向下循環處理63決議17凍結100萬元64決議18凍結100萬元65決議19凍結100萬元66決議20凍結200萬元67決議21凍結100萬元68決議22凍結10萬元第69至90案均為第18款第4項 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2341.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2356.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
69.決議一一般行政凍結200萬元70.決議二一般行政凍結500萬元71.決議三一般行政向下基本行政工作維持凍結100萬元72.決議四基本行政工作維持之水電費凍結195,000元第73案至75萬均為化學物質管理業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2362.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2366.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
73 決議五 凍結300萬元74 決議六 凍結100萬元75 決議七 凍結500萬元76 決議八 化學物質管理業務向下委辦費凍結200萬元77 決議九 化學物質管理業務向下綜合規劃凍結100萬元第78案至81案均為化學物質管理業務向下評估管理78 決議10 凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2389.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2391.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
79決議11凍結200萬元80決議12凍結100萬元81決議13凍結200萬元第82案至85案均為化學物質管理業務向下風險管控82決議14凍結200萬元83決議15凍結100萬元84決議16凍結100萬元85決議17凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2414.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2425.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
86決議18同82案科目向下業務費凍結500萬元第87案至89案均為化學物質管理業務向下危害控制87決議19凍結100萬元88決議20凍結200萬元89決議21凍結100萬元90決議22化學物質管理業務向下危害控制之設備及投資凍結100萬元91決議1環境管理署凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2442.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2468.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
九十二決議二一般行政向下環境管理基本行政工作維持之水電費凍結二十萬元九十三決議三環境管理基本行政工作維持之特別費凍結十分之一九十四決議四環境管理凍結三十八萬八千元九十五決議五環境管理向下綜合業務管理之建制執法智慧決策中心凍結五十萬元九十六決策六 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2469.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2476.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
環境管理向下綜合業務管理凍結500萬元97決議7同96案科目之違辦費凍結1%98決議8同96案科目之辦理查緝環保犯罪金還獎獎勵凍結1%99決議9同96案科目凍結100萬元100決議10環境管理向下區域治理凍結200萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2496.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2511.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
101決議11環境管理向下區域治理凍結100萬元102決議12環境管理向下區域治理之國內旅費凍結二十分之一第103案至107案均為環境管理向下推動環境管理工作103決議13凍結100萬元104決議14凍結100萬元105決議15環境管理凍結500萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2519.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2521.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
106決議16凍結500萬元107決議17凍結500萬元108決議18環境管理向下多元垃圾處理計劃第二期計劃凍結100萬元109決議19環境管理向下推動環境管理工作之海岸清潔維護計劃113年至116年凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2541.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2546.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第110案至114案均為環境管理向下美質環境推動計劃110決議20凍結200萬元111決議21凍結100萬元112決議22凍結500萬元113決議23凍結2000萬元114決議24凍結10萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2561.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2563.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第115案至120案均為美職環境推動計劃向下科目115決議25業務費凍結200萬元116決議26業務費凍結100萬元117決議27委辦費凍結100萬元118決議28委辦費凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2580.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2589.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
119決議二十九一般事務費凍結一百萬元120決議三十獎補助費凍結一百萬元第121案至125案均為多元化垃圾處理計劃第二期計劃121決議三十一凍結二百萬元122決議三十二凍結一百萬元123決議三十三凍結一百萬元124決議三十四凍結二百萬元125決議三十五凍結五百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2607.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2612.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
126決議36科目同121案之業務費凍結100萬元127決議37科目同121案之獎補助費凍結1000萬元第128案之134案均為第18款第6項128決議1科技發展凍結10萬元129決議2科技發展向下環境研究科技發展之業務費凍結100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2631.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2631.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2658.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2682.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
好 謝謝有關於環境部主管預算凍結報告計100勝3那請問我有無異議好 那無異議我們先我有12項希望能夠保留12項第12案是不是不是 第一第一第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2686.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2690.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
11 11 37 3 7 51 51 57 57 58 58 59 59 62 62 86 86 93 93 127 127謝謝主席總共計12案好那我們一道討論事項在一併處理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2711.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2728.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們的意思是這樣 如果說這個院會交下來是這個做報告事項對不對那有意義的等一下我們在有八案的討論事項完之後再來處理這個有意義的部分好 謝謝主席所以我們就針對第一二十一 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2729.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2755.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
三七五一五七五八五九六二八六九三一二七等這些案共計十二案先行保留,要討論事項處理完畢之後再來處理本案,其他均同意動之OK,好部長可以啦,還是你要先再溝通一下修不修 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2760.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2776.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
要不要?我就可以給你五分鐘好不好?好,你要尊重委員,當然一定要尊重委員,溝通也是尊重委員好,那我們接下來請本部長來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2795.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2809.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主席、委員、各位朋友、各位委員我好本部來報告公務預算的解凍案的審查報告第一個我們剛剛有報告過我們114年度公務預算做成142項的預算凍結的決議其中有8項那也謝謝剛剛陳委員多了12項的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2814.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2833.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那其中134項交付櫃會處理的書面報告那以下呢我先針對這個我們過去討論的八項進行檢要的報告這八項裡面呢有一個第一頁是環境部的一個凍結預算報告其他就是我們市署一院的報告那第七案是我們大氣師第八案是資源循環署相關的這個凍結的這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2835.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2862.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
其中這個第一案呢是關於這個我們本部的這個預算其實本部的預算呢主要是用於這個委辦費相關的這個內容那這個跟各司署都有相關係所以這個目前呢總共動了一億四千多萬其實還是希望說可以競速的一個可以來解凍那第二案呢是關於我們氣候變遷署它的業務費的部分總共凍結了將近四千萬這個其實跟我們的淨零碳排是有很明確的關係我們也希望能夠顯著的來解凍 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2863.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2879.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那第三案呢是我們資源循環署的這個業務費的部分總共凍結了1億將近1億4千萬左右這個跟我們的這個資源循環的相關的一個合作包含法規的調適那我們目前呢我們資源循環的推動法已經在行政院審核我們希望盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2880.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2906.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
在這個月底或是到六月初的時候能夠儘速可以公告那這個第四案呢是化學署的這個業務費的部分那化學署呢跟我們國家化學的物質管理是有很明確的關係的那這個呢也希望委員可以支持因為這裡面呢總共有兩將近兩億五千萬左右的幅度這個比例是非常的高那第五案呢是關於我們的皇冠署的業務費因為皇冠署呢跟民眾整個日常生活都有很大的一個關係尤其是說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2908.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2923.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
總共有每年都有470噸的家戶的這個垃圾這個也補助了很多的這個地方那我們也希望這個凍結的7000多萬能夠盡速的一個解凍那第六項是國環院那國環院是本部的智庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2924.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2947.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那它這個針對我們這個相關的例如說PFAS或是各種的循環或淨零率生活等等的這個研究案是有很明確的關係的這總共有7500萬左右的一個幅度那第七案是大氣師這個是我們針對我們的這個空品監測站導入AI其實目前我們已經針對空品測站結合到AI可以針對一個個站也就是說每個民眾他自己在 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2948.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2965.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
他所在的地方如果遇到空污的時候自己都一個即時的一個告警像我是敏感體質現在我自己每天都在用這個東西避免我自己受到這個戶外的空污的一個危害那這個是已經有明顯的一個成效第八案呢是也是陳昭志委員所提出的關於我們的這個資源循環廢棄物的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2966.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2989.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
能夠在再生能源法這個部分我們也跟能源署做了一個充分的一個討論不過因為目前我們是以廢棄物它本身的廢棄物能源是本地的可持續的能源之一當然這個部分裡面的一個內容經過我們的SRF的白皮書裡面都有明確的一個解釋做一個定義委員所關係的就是大躍興重金屬的污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2990.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3012.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我們在這個報告書裡面都有強化這個法規的一個調查所以這個部分其實是沒有問題的在凍結數兩百萬那我們其他的部分呢總共一百三十四案裡面這個就含在各個數我就不特別細說那以上呢是我們僅就本部一百一十四年度的公共預算凍結案進行檢要的報告也請委員能夠鼎力支持統一凍資相關的預算以利政策業務的執行 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3018.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3026.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始審討 做以下宣告本會委員審討時間6.5分鐘 列席委員4.1分鐘 實驗辦截止 歡迎登記委員如果有書面質詢 請於商會前提出 預期不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3045.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3051.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
暫定10點半休息10分鐘本是會議不處理歷史提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員來做發言謝謝主席有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3062.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3081.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
陳委員好部長好 您是其實在本組裡面大家都認為說您在質詢的態度上跟誠懇上我們都覺得評價是很高所以我跟您討論的問題我也希望部長能夠用心去了解一下那我今天想跟你討論的是環評會議上公民團體參與的部分以前公民團體它是一開始就進場 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3088.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3103.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
然後聽取開發單位的報告一直到民眾發言的階段的時候那個環節他才能夠也能夠針對開發單位他提出的這個回應做一些質疑那基本上大家都在同一個桌子上平起平坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3104.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3108.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那不管說這個公民團體他們意見後來有沒有被接納但至少還有一個平台嘛一個溝通跟這個互信的平台但是末代這個署長張子敬把他把這個取消掉那部長您現在是做法是更把與會公民都趕到一個小房間小房間去看螢幕那只有輪到他民眾發言的環節才請他出來而且還有一進一出這種做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3127.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3140.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那螢幕畫面事實上跟場內的那個時間上是有落差的那後來還公民要求去改善所以我想請教部長過去行政機關引以為榮的就是說環評會當中有公民參與這樣的機制那現在一再限縮那這樣不就變成一言堂了嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3147.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3150.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
好 報告委員為了這個問題我也調查了我們部有環評會議的時候開始到現在怎麼去執行當然當中有經過一個疫情的期間疫情期間的確是一進一出後來稍微開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3162.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3179.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那我們本部呢成立之後因為後棟有一個會議室那有18個位置所以基本上我們就那時候的確去年的時候差不多前年的時候我們就用18位能夠盡量沒有什麼限制來進行可是因為今年年初的時候發生四接的時候我們裡面湧進了四五十個人進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3180.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3184.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
部長那天非常清楚因為您不在你是叫次長來主席我那天我們黨三個委員都在第一個他臨時限制說20個發言第二個他沒有按照規定前一週的資料有完整的放上去而且還缺了第六章核心資料第三個前幾天就有內部檢舉人說他裡面有一些作弊作假的行為那個資料我也在之前就寄到委員我們這個我們在調查當中因為這些問題沒有解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3208.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3224.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以那天大家是基本上是覺得說那天開會是不當的所以我覺得部長您不能用那一天的會議來決定以後都不這麼做這個是我要跟部長講的就是說你不可以用那件事來整個否決公民參與等於你是倒退路嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3225.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3240.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
其實是沒有的因為第一個是說一個委員一個人其實報告可以三分鐘其實就像說立法院對委員的諮詢時間也有一個限制當然我們其實我後來看了我們過去四次用這個新的辦法這新的辦法是環境委員建議的真的是參與啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3242.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3264.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
他不是說關在一個房間然後這個時間到就叫他們出來等一下我再跟部長講說我先跟你解釋事件因為你不在你不在但市長在好那天他非常的偏頗好那部長我看到這個新聞你稍微看一下這個你看就是說本市會議旁聽發言維持五位民眾101會議室那發言後一進一出等等等等其實看到這個新聞有點難過因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3265.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3282.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
環境部在前幾週有個大甲溪公民電廠開發案限制公民團體進場那就把公民團體關在一個小房間看延遲的轉播他連直播都不是然後限制公民團體代表必須輪流發言就輪到發言他才可以從小房間移到會議現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3283.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3294.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那下個禮拜更嚴重了國科會要擴大科學園區面積的案子這個等下我再告訴你為什麼非常嚴重相同劇情又出現一次請問部長你認為現在環境部的環評會議的公民參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3299.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3322.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
還算是公民參與嗎?一線縮成這個樣子因為以前你們最驕傲就是有公民參與你認為現在還是公民參與?這個的確是公民參與但是我們現在還在找更好的一個方法之一因為雖然我們有18個位置上次之前我們也曾經擴展到四五十個位置但是那個就造成場內正反的人在那邊無法溝通而且變得非常的一個嘈雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3323.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3328.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
事件因為我都在場所以我告訴你說發生什麼事因為之前的有些程序的問題資料不實的問題那個事件都處理但是那些照樣碾壓民意是7比0過啊部長有一次您來跟我說明一些案子的時候部長你記不記得您跟我說你很喜歡用AI跟ChatGPT |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3341.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3348.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
因為上面會有非常清楚的那個答案你還當場秀給我看說你那個CHAT GPT跟你的解釋一樣那我今天想告訴部長部長我就這個CHAT GPT不認同環境部目前的做法是符合公民參與我用剛剛那個公示剛才那個公示的新聞詢問CHAT GPT |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3362.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3366.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我問他說環境部在這個環民會議中輪到發言才可以到場講三分鐘這是公民參與嘛我報告部長 部長第一個確定GP說這不符合理想的公民參與原則第二他說你們這樣做很有問題限制知情權 討論權 違反實質參與那缺乏程序正義跟公共信任公民參與應該有完整的參與整個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3390.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3395.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
如果你只能排隊發言時間到了才回去那個現場他根本就沒有整體討論跟回應的機會這樣就是形勢啊公民失去公共政策的影響力不僅不能有效釐清爭議也不能提出替代方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3408.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3424.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
也沒辦法要求修正這個開發計畫有一點意見提出來第三CHAT GPT還說真正的公民參與必須要有持續參與而且有影響力的參與環境部你這樣的做法根本就是排除異議不同的聲音啊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3425.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3448.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
您喜歡的ChanceGPD這樣回答您可以自己去試試看其實我們現在我們正在進行環評總體檢像這個議題也是我們正在討論的項目之一現在等於是說我們過去這個是一個試行我們過去四次環評會議的確五個進去一進一出這種方式我們希望能夠比較平和來進行那委員剛剛講到那個不一樣的這個是有lag的情況這個已經有改善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3449.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3463.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那委員提到的這個未來我們希望說我們希望年底有一個更好的制度那這個制度不是我們來訂的是透過我們一個部長其實如果您更開放用回到公民參與其實他們這邊的秩序討論大家都可以好好協調人數等等這個都可以協調但是就是你真的不要再用我實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3469.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3491.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
參與的經驗是無法協調因為正反的意見常常一半一半然後兩邊有時候在那邊吵架我所謂協調是程序的部分程序的部分因為這樣的機制因為你現在也沒有辦法實質全體全程參與他只有他出現的時候才去那這個就是違反這個整個知情權討論權程序公義所以基本上是不是您剛剛有提到您要開始檢討修正這個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3493.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3506.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那天主席那個司儀他的態度非常偏頗他非常熱情的對待這個支持者這一方但是對民團他是非常的那個態度非常很不好所以如果我想再確認一下部長如果您願意好好的重新開啟開放公民環境進場機制的話我可以確定您是這樣的態度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3515 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3533.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我是這個態度但是這個程序上如何讓他更順利更平和一直到發言的時候有可能讓他們全部參與就回到過去了只是回到過去的時候不過報告委員因為我們只有18個位置那之前擠了四五十個人幾個人我們可以想說至少有公民是可以全程參與您支持這樣做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3533.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3542.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
如果說是在一個很合理符合會議規範然後大家也互相能夠願意聽取對方的意見這個您的承諾會決定我今天所有的那個解凍案要不要通過包委我是支持開放政府的所以這個程序如果我們可以做到我會盡量做到但是因為以前的環評會議我有特別找了以前的歷史 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3556.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3574.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
精神上您願意嘛 那我們看技術上怎麼來克服你看大概這裡面有好多個委員 下一張你看他提出這次的國科會的環評我想請問你 這基本原則 環評委員在會議中提出的意見是否應該如實記錄跟確認 這個原則對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3578.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3601.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對 這個已經都有確認 都有記錄那這次的科學園區的會議 發言記錄還沒有全數確認時 主席就宣布散會還說意見之後再會診 然後再給環評委員會看你覺得這樣合理嗎他在結束前沒有做確認欸他說我以後再整理給你們看報告委員 這是一個諮詢會議那他們提出的意見呢 那個國科會他們要提出一個詢答然後才會進入實質上的審查會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3603.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3626.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
莫頓你覺得這樣可以嗎在還沒有確認然後就把會議結束掉了部長這次科學會議當中科學園區的會議很多委員講了很重的話你看我把紅色切起來寫得相當不好問題很多啊還有空間需求也有問題啊40多年來問題很多都要盤點啊還有人講說什麼只符合這個流放水這個簡直是最低標準根本志氣氣這些都是委員講的話耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3628.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3640.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
顯然那個品質環評品質很有問題那為什麼這個專案工作小組這個問題你直接還是這個通過往下一關送就當作沒事啊他提出這麼多嚴重的問題等於是行政機關在行導這個程序啊碾壓專業意見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3648.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3667.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那怎麼辦呢 你看這個做法包委員這個是政策環評然後這個是提供諮詢的會議但是已經有這麼多問題的話是不是應該要有一些補正的資料或處理而不是直接就往下一關送啊現在就是往下一關送啊他們如果說沒有回答對的下一次的會議也是不會過的不要到下一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3667.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3672.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這環評會議不是橡皮圖當 不能說會整一下我再處理不能當過場戲 我就是要過 目標要過所以我覺得這些話就當作沒有講過所以我可不可以請你做一個承諾說這次的議院會議是不是有遺漏你看我們剛剛主席也是這樣問有沒有遺漏或未經確認之處你要不要檢討會議流程譬如說你還沒有做確定的時候可以結束會議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3693.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3705.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那是否建立透明機制你在彙整過程當中我怎麼知道你怎麼彙整拿有力的彙整還是拿這部分來彙整部長就是不要黑箱嘛就是要公開嘛這個都有逐字稿啦然後他們這個開發單位一定要據實的作答然後他下次的會議過或不過其實這些委員都在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3714.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3723.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
那你當然都回答到但是我可不可以問您說那您是不是可以在會議結束之前要把這些做個基本確認你不能回家大家都散了然後回去自己整理資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3724.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3749.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
這個當天主席就這麼做的啊就是這個部分要檢討嘛好不好你可不可以寫一個內施會我來檢討一下其實這個其實一個政策環境它跟一般的環境不大一樣最後一張齁這個是環境署的實在齁那個環保署實在齁你們貼在牆壁上你們繼續帶到環境部我不同意你的立言但是我誓死捍衛你講話的權利啦齁所以發言權是基本啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3751.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3777.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
參與才是真正的民主我希望你把這件事放在心上這個牌子現在還掛在環境上但是我也必須說這個大家不一樣的意見還是要聽對方的意見那我自己看到我們的機制現在的確是不是有一些好的科技能夠幫助兩方不一樣意見可以互相找到一個中間可以討論的地方這個在任何團體任何部門我知道都會遇到但是基本上我們要讓他有發言有參與有了解的機會了解這些事情的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3780.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3780.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
主席有請彭部長林委員好部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3805.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3821.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
今天想針對於之前我提出預算跟環境部有關的來跟部長討論一下那部長去年我就問過了就是說限塑政策到底要怎麼推特別是針對小吃攤 菜市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3822.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3850.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
早餐店和餐廳這四大場域有沒有清楚的期程跟策略結果你們的解凍報告寫說112年比91年減碩大概減量了50%可是針對這四大場域最難推的場域到114年還只是停留在所謂自辦計畫和寫指引的階段你自己最近公開也說2025年的目標有難度那我知道從2018年擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3852.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3870.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
現用到14類的業者已經事實上是很重要的進程但現在剩下的就是那個最難推的商家類型所以我想問這些事辦計畫真的能夠撐到2030年能達標嗎有沒有更積極的做法因為我翻遍你們的報告沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3871.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3900.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
對 報告委員因為其實我自己也都是上街買菜啦那我自己會帶環保袋可是我看到像我這樣做的可能一百個只有一兩個所以這個國人的慣性的動力真的要改變一定要有一個優異的機制那我也觀察到各縣市環保局都也協助配合我們在做但是呢就是辦的那天會這樣做過了幾天大家都忘記了所以我們跟我們循環署一直在想要用新的方法能夠來解決但是我們現在還沒有一個完全的定案 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3900.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3918.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
對 可是怎麼會還在是因為我剛剛不斷講這樣可是購物袋的現用跟收費政策其實台灣民眾都已經也是習慣了因為很多份的調查都顯示差不多結果將近八成的人知道買東西要自備購物袋不知道要 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3919.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3941.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
不然就要自己付錢來買袋子那6成5的民眾是支持2030年全面限售更有超過8成6的民眾是認為說重複使用塑膠袋它事實上是可以做得到的所以這些數據都說明說限售政策的基礎其實在民眾的生活當中已經是穩固那我覺得這也是政策推動的最強的後盾 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3942.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3962.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
所以民眾已知然後我們攤商的抗拒也不是很嚴重他給的意見是不送最好因為塑膠袋的成本越來越貴了可是他還是有他們一些問題他兩大困境是不敢不送因為隔壁的商家都在送或者是裝袋很麻煩要跟客人拿袋子來裝袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3963.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3989.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那既然有這兩大困難的話那就是希望民眾已知然後攤商有一些困難所以是不是應該可以政策上去考慮可不可以排定場域去推動有一個順序然後可是這個場域推動的時候要一致性譬如蔡市長要一致性否則的話就像攤商講的隔壁再送我沒有送那我就不對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3990.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4007.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那可能我的生意會減弱還有請聽他們的需求去解決問題還要增加經濟誘因剛剛部長也提到說要有一些經濟誘因啊可能使得他們會願意去做來降低我們的攤商的成本然後明確制定策略跟目標所以我要請環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4009.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4035.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
事實上兩個月內是不是可以知道你們有沒有更積極的方案不管是分場域分階段可能要有個期程才讓人家知道說這四大場域接下來你會怎麼去所以要清楚列出時程跟規劃跟成效目標所以部長這部分能不能做到有沒有什麼困難報告委員其實最惠里路就是市場那這個市場其實有一些市場有自發性的做例如說台北市應該是東門市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4037.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4056.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
南門還是東南門市場他們就是做的有自發性去做這個事但是其他的市場呢就跟如同委員說的就是別人都送啊我就不送啊所以大家都就變成說這個東西只有在某一天推廣的時候會這樣是所以我說有沒有辦法去分你的這個場域之後然後能夠有些期程規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4057.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4085.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
或者2030年目標是很難達成的對 報告委員我們現在有一個新的做法就是說我們先找一個可能大家都會去的同溫層例如說花市大家都會去買花也願意去做的然後我們會有一些新的做法再提出來那現在正在演繹當中那這個大概在一兩個月內就會再推出來那我們希望造成一個示範的亮點讓大家能夠真的去省思這個問題所以部長兩個月內可不可以給我知道這些可以可以 差不多可是剛剛提到線索 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4086.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4103.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
真的事實上14類事實上是被你們要求這14類業者要配合限量使用就整體的用量缺反而事實上是成長這不代表就政策沒有抓到關鍵嗎我舉兩個例子第一個我們的宅配的包裝袋跟氣泡袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4104.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4123.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
疫情後事實上這種消費型態改變跟用量暴增你們推出的環保網購的指引2.0還有也說是2026年要達成減量的目標真的能做到嗎第二是PVC的包裝袋雖然便宜透明適合我們的商品展示跟使用但含氫鈾 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4125.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4137.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
含那個塑化劑你們雖然在禁止在使用在食品的包裝可是其他的用途有管制嗎是不是有落實呢這些袋子最後還是落在台灣的土地上所以想問部長你怎麼看塑膠袋內銷量的上升這個趨勢這個數字你們怎麼拿來 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4145.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4169.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
評估整體的那個減售的政策針對這兩個案例部長能不能在有效期限內去達標跟委員報告那這邊的內銷量他會包括說我們的網購或說有些東西他包裝或外銷的啦那我想除了我們剛剛的市場之外其實像科技業或者我們賣場的售要帶我們都一起會提出來一些減量的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4169.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4187.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
對 可是我們內銷量是成長的這件事情有沒有辦法因為如果要達到2030年的話去做這樣子的一個減量根本看起來很難達標因為整體剛剛14類已經事實上是有被先用可是問題是你內銷的塑膠的製品的話事實上是成長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4189.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4208.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那這邊因為會牽扯到說民眾的生活習慣我們會以一個分捐的方式先以獎勵那以這個指引的方式譬如說現在除了我們的刷袋或者是免疫餐具之外其實還有賣場的這個它包裝也很多或者網購包裝那因為網購包裝推動這個循環袋箱需要有一些時間還有它現在的成本是比較高的那這邊我們會來這個逐步來推動再麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4219.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4242.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
環境部再來就是提到那個塑膠袋的用量那我們現在要問的是全球的那個塑膠公約強調有效回收循環再利用可是今天時間有些人不談後端處理所以想問我們的政策真的有幫民眾做好分類嗎台灣有九成以上的民眾都說自己有在做垃圾分類可是塑膠現在大部分都丟在同一類要細分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4244.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4274.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
要那個細分類的時候大家都常常搞不清楚所以像單一材質的可以回收複合材質不行的這種規則呢有多少人可以判斷的出來啦你們雖然都有推社區公益大廈回收的示範計畫可是大部分都是靠管委會只是公告或現場回收員的那個人員的一些糾正可是塑膠材質這麼多標示不清楚大家都覺得有心可是又沒有辦法所以是不是可以就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4274.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4291.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
就想問是說現在真的有落實這樣子的一個前頭源頭管理廠商能夠標示清楚然後呢讓民眾能夠有接受到你們的訊息真的讓民眾知道這些怎麼去做分類這樣能夠做到正確分類 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4293.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4321.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
各位報告那民眾他要丟出這些塑膠的製品有幾種方式啊那像如果是說他是給這個回收車因為他家裡的空間不多所以他只能夠分說容器類一大類然後讓經驗隊去分類但是他也可以到賣場或者說我們有些現在有個自動回收機那那個部分就可以比較對塑膠有些比較好的分類方式可是還是希望環境部可以加強宣導真的很多人事實上是不太理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4322.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4346.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這一塊這麼細分類只是大分類而已我們有看到一些國外做得好他分類的項目多到很多啦但是我們國人齁其實要往下走下一步的確分類的方式跟他的這個定義我們的確有增進的空間那這個我們會來做請文進部再好好的想一想怎麼讓民眾得到這樣的一個訊息那最後就是想問的是因為這也是在預算的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4346.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4366.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我就有提出來 以桃園省道為例來提醒過機車的噪音問題非常嚴重 影響到民眾的安寧這一年來 環境部推動排氣管的認證制度也是助地方加強我們的聲音的照相執法這部分非常值得肯認可是後續還是有幾個問題要改善第一個 很多人預約排檢就是我要預約檢驗卻排不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4373.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4401.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那車照樣在路上跑地方環保局只能先不罰結果還是守法的民眾事實上是反而吃虧第二聲音照相的設置地點好像目前都集中在飆車族出沒的區域可是民眾真正投訴的熱點呢反而沒有裝設所以現在罰單上還是沒有去負那個分貝數的數據的爭議這樣會影響到整體的公信力制度的公信力所以是不是我考 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4402.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4417.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我覺得建議兩項就是擴充我們的檢驗的量能也應該設計回檢的那個機制讓民眾知道不是通過一次我們認證就可以永久改裝使用第二事實上是公開我們設 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4418.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4446.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
點的邏輯也就是加強佈建設備要裝在真正民院的地方而不是在飆車組的地方所以請問部長這些建議是不是可以落實可以那這個因為那個一個站也是要100多萬所以我們也要爭取預算能夠來協助地方能夠多設置一點那委員因為過去都是飆車組的熱點那委員說的這個民眾老民的點因為最近我們也收到一些民眾他說那個點不是他生活的這個點是 老遠我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4447.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4468.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
任養的區域他們還是在跟我反映說去年已經好預算也希望你們要去改善這部分可是好像似乎事實上是還是沒有達到沒有解決他們的問題他們晚上睡覺的時候還是遭受到很大的痛苦這預算我們會努力去爭取啦最後就還是期待就是說線索的這些場域不要再停留在事半的階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4468.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4492.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
還有非管制塑膠袋的不能用越多因為我們內銷量是在成長所以這個請一個月內是不是可以提出你們現在的具體方案好那最後噪音這一塊的話希望守法的人能夠不要吃虧好 以上謝謝部長謝謝委員建議 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長部長我要提醒你 你剛剛講那些話很恐怖喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4493.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4518.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你說你有買菜的習慣,也有自備環保袋的習慣,那你到市場看的時候,有這個習慣一百個才一兩個?你確定?你是一年買一次菜,還是一個月買?一個月一兩次那可能多看幾次,應該台灣人使用環保袋不會一百個,只有一兩個在使用?就不用塑膠袋 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4519.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4528.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
對啦,但是你說那個比例才一兩個會使用環保袋這顯然這個政策就已經不用塑膠袋的很少 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4531.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4548.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我覺得是很多,可能有些場域真的是陳土部長所講,但是一般台灣國人使用環保袋的比例應該是高的,不會是低的就我的理解啦,不好意思,因為我學年沒去買菜,我也去買東西,我也會自備環保袋啦,不好意思因為你補充說100,這麼多你用,這是進球的夭折啊,對不起,陳委員抱歉抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4564.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4566.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
好謝謝主席謝謝委員還有請部長請部長陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4572.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4597.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
部長 上禮拜5月17我們正式進入了飛河家園有新的網友上網看就會發現晚上的火力發電呼呼在燒 燒到95%剛好這個週末我是跑高雄的行程所以到大寮 陵園跟這些鄉親聊天發現他們最關心的事情就是5月17飛河家園上路之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4598.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4624.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
5月22 5月23就馬上有吹哨者爆料新達電廠又偷偷的在開機在燒煤但是對比你上禮拜跟大家講的台灣的空氣品質只輸日本然後請大家少用用廢發電的這個詞其實高雄人也會想問你如果不是用廢發電請問你現在覺得如何解讀現在我們是用什麼發電呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4626.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4647.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
報告委員其實我上禮拜是在行政院的記者會有特別解釋說我們的空污從103年全台平均的24微克降到去年的12.8那其實我們發現空污的污染源移動源已經多於固定污染源而且還在增加當中還有很多生活的那加上我們其實前陣子有一個空品政策白皮書 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4648.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4677.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
其實裡面有很多的這個內容所以我是特別強調說當然這個我們能夠希望那個用電用煤發電能夠越少越好但是其實各種的空污的減量也要一起來做啦好我想問一下您的數據是不是把台灣好幾個觀測站去平均因為對高雄人來說你拿高雄的台中的數據去跟台東的數據平均最後去跟WHO好幾年前某一個城市日本香港來比 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4678.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4705.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
根本就不合理也不公平啊報委員其實我們拿到日本或是韓國我們都是國家的一個報告他們國家也都會有一個所有的站的做一個平均那當然啦我們裡面也有東部的站東部的站PM2.5大概8或9的確是比較低所以基本上每一個國家用整個因為我們談的是整個國家的平均不是說一個站那我當然知道高雄的確PM2.5平均還有到15左右所以其實我也知道這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4706.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4717.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
但是我們講的就是國家的一個政策就很像說我們國人的GDP平均是多少但是有人賺的很多可是有人賺的比較少那大家是覺得你也不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4718.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4739.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
說服說不要再講用廢發電或者是少講用廢發電因為自從非核家園上路了之後很明顯的火力發電燃氣燃煤大幅度的提升到2030年都不可能達到綠能30%所以這個是一般人民的認知那在這邊另外還要告訴你這個是環境部自己的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4741.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4760.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
剛剛除了您講的這個排名我們另外還要看到這個IQ Air的統計全球污染最嚴重的國家排名台灣是54名 韓國59香港63 菲律賓74新加坡94 俄羅斯99日本108請問部長這樣子的排名你怎麼會覺得說台灣的空污 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4761.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4788.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好轉指數日本或者是說旁邊是你自己提供的圖這是環境部的圖喔你剛剛一直在強調PM2.5但是流氧化物 氮氧化物的排放源很確定大部分至少20到40% 流氧化物是40%氮氧化物是20%都是由火力發電產生的所以你不能只把空污一直定義在PM2.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4789.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4803.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
報告委員第一個IQ Air它是一個做空氣清淨機還有微型感測器的公司它對PM2.5的量測是自動的它沒有把水氣的因素濾掉所以基本上我們是用所謂的手動式的濾除 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4804.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4824.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
像日本韓國先進的國家國家的標準都是用手動的來做不是用自動的感測器對不是用這種自動型的來做這個自動型的我們比較不會做一個參考因為我上次記得前幾次在本務院的這個我也報告過其實這個數字我們就參考就好了它的趨勢可以看但是實際上的數值比較沒有參考價值好 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4826.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4848.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
第二個是我們的一般PM2.5它就是叫懸浮微粒它有直接產生出來的細微粒也有衍生的衍生就是SAX、NAX等等它會混在一起出來所以我們一般的健康就是用PM2.5因為它會代表一個重整當然我也知道說SAX電力業是40%可是我們最後出來就是PM2.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4850.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4877.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
大家的理解是這樣子啦既然火力發電很確認上升了PM2.5應該也會在你宣布這個空品有改善之後也會跟著上升這是一個人民合理推測的嘗試可是包委員其實因為我們我們最近這一兩個禮拜也都一直密切注意我們的台灣的空氣品質有沒有受到影響目前我們掌握的數據PM2.5都是在良好等級並沒有所謂的改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4878.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4898.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我建議你可以到現在可能燃氣燃煤大量增加的區域我們在做局部地區的風險分析好嗎這個我們都有看目前其實是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我也必須說因為最近是夏天然後天氣是很好然後有下雨當然就相對會比較好如果冬天可能就比較不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4899.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4920.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
是 所以網路上也會有人說你做出來這個平均值不但是平均台灣各地的值還是平均每一個月份那是5到9月大家是不要呼吸然後9月之後大家再來呼吸因為那些數值差得非常多這邊是台大的 可能部長也已經讀過了就台大詹長權教授所做的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4921.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4927.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
他第一個是2022年他去分析燃煤電廠附近這個PM2.5他發現第一他擴散的範圍比其他種的電廠更大影響的範圍更大那再來隔壁的縣市也會容易受到影響跟其他電廠比起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4939.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4944.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以他去做一個風險的計算發現燃煤電廠每年排放的PM2.5細微這個浮力會約造成360例的成人死亡還有124例的Premature Death這樣那另外一個是最新的2024年的這個是非常長期的分析他已經分析了長達30年PM2.5的長期曝露 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4961.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4978.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這臺灣地區會增加罹患肺腺癌相較於肺腺癌的風險而且他去校正了性別年齡有沒有抽菸屎癌症的分歧這些還有他有沒有帶一些致癌的基因都沒有關係所以在這邊我們只是想正視這個問題因為燃煤機組已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4982.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4998.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
偷偷的打開了那我們也不知道是不是隨著天氣又變熱他必須在持續在他退役之前或者是他會演繹沒有人知道他會再打開所以這也是環境部長應該要去注意的事情而不是幫能源政策辯護啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4999.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5022.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
報告委員我是講說我們空污的確有改善那委員強調的當然我也知道說我們的這個肺腺癌的篩檢率其實目前量有增多其實我們也在探討這個問題因為我們空污改善了從過去24現在變成12.8那為什麼我們的肺腺癌的比例看起來有上升那當然有很多因素應該是說這個還是有影響的暴露沒有其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5023.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5043.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
可能是這種固定源是一種交通源是一種我們生活的污染源也有所以其實我們在這個報告裡面也重新說我們會好好的去研究探討說生活上面或是各種的污染源到底哪一個對我們國人健康影響是最大的不是只有單一一個來源但單一這個來源是一定上升的這你同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5044.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5064.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
單一的來源目前來看的話難道它會是下降的嗎沒有 基本上我以為燃氣跟燃煤是不一樣當然現在那個大林跟興達我剛剛就講燃氣跟燃煤它一樣就算你一直在講PM2.5它是增加流氧化物也增加氮氧化物這兩個東西其實都會增加我們呼吸道的疾病我們也不要只看肺癌它會增加氣喘 它會增加咳嗽增加頭痛 增加慢性咽喉炎 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5070.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5099.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
其實我們生活裡面有很多很多的空污的來源例如說像我們最近也看了很多例如說家裡面一些主婦煮菜這個煎肉煎培根等等那個PM2.5在國外的文獻都可以到好幾百好幾千所以其實我們是希望能夠從健康的觀點來保障國人不是只有一個當然我必須說委員我並沒有幫台電說話只是說我那天在解釋說我們PM2.5逐漸在改善而且我們的移動污染源已經大於固定其實我們也沒有希望你 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5099.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5125.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
特別去幫台電說話或是沒有要幫台電說話你就是講出數據就好了對我就是講出數據啊委員我這本我待會再印出來再給委員來看看參考一下所以這邊也是讓你看一下因為我們國家的政策現在健康政策跟環保政策跟能源政策是互相抵觸的說為了達到健康台灣我們希望2030年癌症的人數死亡人數要下降三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5126.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5143.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
可是我們現在在做的事情其實是增加癌症的風險剛剛那篇paper已經講得很清楚了好那既然是要增加這個下降癌症的風險就會發現我們比起來啊在這幾年來你這個肺腺癌的人每10萬人38.3人攀升到44.3人這是從102年到112年的比較那你也發現亞洲 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5152.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5174.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
是全球五分之三的肺癌的發生地亞洲也是空汙最汙染的地方所以您上週講用肺發電希望大家不要再講結果網路上有幾個網友是這樣講他說我有乾淨的霉你有民主的肺嗎或者是乾淨的霉怎麼可能和肺癌有關係呢如果真的有那就改用民主韌性的霉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5175.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5181.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我真心的希望啦非核家園不要成為廢核家園又有肺疾病又有肺癌又呼吸道疾病又引起咳嗽這個是希望環境部長可以正視的問題希望環境部長可以去看我們的能源轉型之後對於空汙的影響而不是告訴我們說你每天量都是越來越好這跟一般人的認知真的是很不一樣尤其是在特定區域的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5202.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5230.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
所以包委員我這本報告裡面都有特別講說我們台灣的污染源哪裡我們未來要怎麼做好啦你這本報告還沒停停核電嗎你這本報告還沒停基本上委員這個它的來源例如說我們做出來這個固定的污染源其實我們移動已經超過它了那電力業的比例有多少其實我們的過去的研究也都有探討當然我也必須說所有的量如果能一起減會更好但是如果會造成癌症有很多很多的原因我想委員你是醫生 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5230.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5251.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
我剛剛已經拿出一篇校正過其他原因的了還是跟PM2.5大幅相關可是委員PM2.5其實在很多像家裡面很多的生活習慣它PM2.5也會飆高我們在室內大概有七八成的時間所以如何我們能夠政府能夠希望多方的能夠降低這個PM2.5這是我們努力的目標好 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5251.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5270.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
最後一個問題這個是上禮拜蠻大的新聞就是桃園這個要必須幫環境部拍拍手環境部跟桃園的環保局有查獲一個不肖的業者他非法掩埋這些廢棄物裡面很混亂包括水泥樹脂泡棉廢液實驗室廢料等等達到1700多公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5274.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5281.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
可是呢後來你們環境部把他收回去以後說後續很不易處理所以你們委託清潔費用遠超過兩千萬元然後最後是對他開罰一千五百萬元那假使大家就會覺得假使我是業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5289.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5304.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那我逃過的話我就省了兩千多萬這個把這些廢棄物處理掉的錢那最高也只罰一千五百萬元這個跟食安法或者是一些放射性的物料的管理法以及公平交易法罰款的Range差很大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5308.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5334.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
對 包委員這個他已經被我們凍結他的資產了大概一千九百多萬那他未來也要負責全部的清理那我必須說委員我們過去的罰則是一千五百萬然後判五年那太低了那我們現在在啟動修法可能要到七年而且要不得可能不得提高罰金嗎提高罰金然後要加重刑責所以這個是我們現在要提出來的也希望委員到時候可以支持謝謝 那我請再跟你們辦公室要一下進度謝謝 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5336.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5351.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來請邱政軍委員來做選擇主席好 我們請彭部長來 請彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5356.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5384.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
邱委員好部長我想請教一下我們行政院的總預算編給地方的一般性補助款那總額當然是2501億那這個項目在立法院當然是沒有完全沒有刪除但是現在我們行政院違法砍了地方的一般性補助款高達27%我就想請問一下部長那這個部分對我們地方上對環境部推動的政策會不會影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5386.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5404.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
本部是目前沒有太大的影響啦但是明年財劃法修正之後其實我們部的預算可能會有一些會減少我也擔心會受到一些影響我們先不講財劃法先講一般性補助款那我認為這個部分你認為對我們地方在執行環境部的業務的時候不會影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5405.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5434.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
今年不影響 就今年我們不補助給地方的我們會如期把它完成所以你們是 環境部這部分是沒有動就對了對對對 但是27%你們沒有去我們沒有 我們沒有你們沒有去刪減嘛對對對那對 因為我們看到這樣子的話我擔心地方的這些環境我們在推動那些政策啊 都會受到影響那如果說這樣子是沒有 沒有是最好那當然我相信啊 就是我們的部長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5435.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5459.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
在這樣的一個議題之下能夠堅持這個是非常棒的因為就像我們苗栗的焚化爐一樣你當初的是BOT案BOT案然後後來如果這個受到影響的話那勢必會影響到我們焚化爐的運作那可能會影響到其他縣市垃圾的處理那當然部長能夠這樣子我們非常的欣慰謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5461.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5480.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那當然我再請教一下剛剛我們清輝委員講的你說呼籲要盡量少用廢發電那鯉魚市當然是移動污染源的PM2.5比火力發電還要高那我要說我們交通污染當然是很嚴重但不然你沒辦法承認嘛那目前台灣的能源結構當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5482.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5510.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
火力發電佔比是一直都是超過8成那在非核家園的第一天高達92%那因為火力發電的空污排放量非常大而且是集中的再加上地形的關係不容易散去那一些研究資料像國建署還有台大公衛支都顯示火力發電廠附近的居民的氣喘肺癌心肺疾病風險明顯提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5511.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5526.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那用廢發電這個詞在中南部受污染的民眾是他是真實的感受啦那我想政府的能源政策下的悲劇也是人民對空污覺得無力的控訴但部長你一直要用這個移動污染源來幫火力發電漂白 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5527.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5543.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
是不是能源政策上的佈局加上政治的壓力所以你要這樣出來背書啊包委員沒有啦因為我們其實花了很多時間半年做了一個這個空品白皮書那其實我們也跟很多專家學者討論其實我們發現台灣的例如說造成PM2.5的污染源 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5544.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5563.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
有很多剛剛講的固定汙染源固定汙染源包含工廠還有發電業那移動汙染源我們的汽機車或是老舊的車子它也會排放很多的廢氣或是說剛高速公路旁邊等等或是說我們家裡面生活的這個益善源例如說我們家裡面有時候煮菜或是生活上面的習慣也會造成PM2.5其實我們發現為什麼我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5565.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5581.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
空污減量可是我們的癌症的篩的比例還持續的上升這一定有一些落差的存在所以我們是希望說能夠從民眾健康的角度來把空污的問題解決所以就是不是只有一個固定污染源的問題還有其他各種的污染源我們都要一起來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5582.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5609.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那目前現在最大宗看起來就是火力發電嗎其實它有很多啦不見得是只有火力發電還有別的那火力發電算大嗎火力發電它是其中之一但不是最大的例如說我們的移動最大你認為是汽車移動污染源的部分當然那個是加起來多因為有的是一根比較多那我們現在是不是碰到問題一個我們就要解決一個嘛對不對所以部長您支持這個火力發電繼續一直持續還是說繼續擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5610.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5635.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
還是要縮減基本上把燃煤能夠盡量的減少這是最好的那因為這個那目前我們有沒有什麼計畫這個是屬於台電他個規劃那目前我們國家的近年的規劃在2030年的時候我們的這個燃煤大概只剩下我記得是9%左右能夠從現在的大概是在2030年就希望足夠的減少那剩下幾年現在是剩下不再5年還要5年對對對那5年內你要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5635.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5664.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
五年內裡面第一個是再生能源照經濟部能源署的規劃再生能源在2030年希望可以到30%那這個部分就可以用你認為達得到嗎如果現在離岸風電那個方面如果能夠起來的話就有機會但是我必須說台灣的各種能源都面臨到還蠻大的挑戰五年之內你相信我都不太相信對不對這個要努力啦因為每個國家都面臨到能源轉型的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5665.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5695.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
你是少數在政府體系當中還是秉持專業立場的部會首長這點我要跟你肯定當然對外界也對你有比較高的期待所以我希望你不要用就是就是希望說好好的做事情請你繼續堅守你環境部的專業底線該做的 該講的我希望你還是要講因為我發現我們台灣現在的問題我們其實最大的污染源是來自於行政院我希望你環境部不要被污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5699.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5722.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那另外根據環境部的統計營建工程的噪音成型比例高達兩成那工地施工的噪音會造成民眾生活中很大的一個困擾尤其是連續性的有時候又是尖銳的有時候因為它的頻率不是很正常的那這樣會讓人家很煩嘛那環境部目前還在討論要把這個聲音照相 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5723.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5739.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
技術用於這個營建工程噪音監測的階段那這個要怎麼做包委員這個我們明天早上明天會有一個研討會就是我們請到像日本日本其實有些工地其實他已經用到比較低噪音也低空汙的方式來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5740.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5769.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那台灣其實現在我必須坦承因為我以前也住在很多都更的房偏齁那真的是產生活品質非常非常的差啦那我們希望能夠藉由國際的案例能夠能夠重新再定義出台灣有沒有因為那個我們希望營建的這個營造業者他能夠採聚用這種國外比較好的一個先進的方式低噪音或是低空汙的方式來進行所以我們還在找一些新的方式來進行所以我們明天會有一個研討會就來討論這個意思那這部分有沒有這個具體的一個時程表 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5769.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5786.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
目前我們是希望能夠第一個是先找到國際有什麼好的案例然後我們會開始獎勵獎勵例如說好的我們給他獎勵給他認證那慢慢的就會產生出這種好的就可以願意做的更多日本當然他現在的還有一些國家的先進經驗對這部分當然有已經有做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5789.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5810.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那當然我也贊同這個做法就是說在這個明天公聽會在這個事情還沒有確定之前我們有沒有什麼比較具體的做法來去減少這樣的一個這個噪音的發生如果說真的是公因為我們目前工地如果要整個都更要拆除其實用的重機具其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5812.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5834.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
目前都是還蠻老舊的而且那個沒有辦法解決而且那我們現在只能用在這種只能在上班時間去處理晚上影響到民眾生活作息的就不能夠去處理這個有很明確的嚴格的一個規範那至於說他能不能真的在減量用更好的機具低污染的機具因為有些那個重機具他其實都是燒柴油的其實對附近的空氣污染也是蠻嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5835.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5855.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好,那部長希望這個事情盡快啦好,我會來錄時間表好,謝謝部長好,謝謝邱委員,謝謝部長那委員會在這邊做一下宣告,謝謝我們等蘇清泉、莊委選擇結束之後休息十分鐘接下來請王育美委員來做選擇謝謝莊委,我們請部長來,請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5868.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5882.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
王委員好部長好部長我想請教你有沒有去過瑞士訪問有有是不是有那你覺得這個國家的空氣品質如何非常好非常好那你知不知道他們的電力結構對知道核能佔比例很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5883.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5909.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
很高嘛對不對所以我今天要跟你討論的就是為什麼其他的國家可以做得這麼好那台灣我們其實是在退步當中我必須講退步兩個字我上個禮拜跟衛福部一起去出席WHA相關的會議訪問瑞士的確跟你的感受一樣到了瑞士之後第一個感覺就是空氣非常的清新那它空氣非常清新是來自於什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5910.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5927.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
它是一個低碳發電的國家所謂的低碳它的水力佔了它的五成它的核能佔了三分之一所以它總共這些低碳佔比就已經超過八成了它的燃煤大概只有兩到三趴這種火力的那你看看我們台灣我們台灣現在連廚藝的機組都可以重新運轉我在瑞士看到這則新聞的時候坦白講蠻難過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5939.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5965.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
因為賴總統告訴大家說我們不缺點我們的備轉容量率呢都十幾趴他在接受媒體專訪的時候講得很大聲結果跟事實完全不一樣我們的事情是人家一問說新達電廠為什麼要運轉因為電不夠啊因為我們的備轉容量率小於6趴小於8趴所以就要啟用 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5967.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5996.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我覺得政治人物的誠信是非常重要的為什麼沒有把事實告訴國人呢一個還可以繼續研議的核三廠二號機他就跟瑞士他們能源一樣這一個核能他其實是低碳的結果你不用硬是要除液然後你高汙染的這一個興達電廠包括大嶺電廠都是當地高雄居民已經抗議所以不發給他執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5997.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6007.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
然後有的是已經除役你偏偏要運轉這是什麼能源政策啊部長我覺得這個經濟部跟總統府在害你啊他們的這個錯誤的政策讓你的減碳的任務跟目標完全不可能達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6017.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6032.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
從2016年到現在我們因為燃煤增加的碳排已經高達80萬噸了請問你環境部再怎麼努力有一方的政策不斷在增加你的碳排然後你在國際承諾你要減碳這完全是背道而駛的方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6037.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6059.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這樣的方案你怎麼可以去背書呢在這件事情上我認為部長你要維持在你專業跟中立的立場因為媒體問你你好像不得不幫台電講幾句話然後就說我們的空氣品質還是亞洲第二我們這個火力不是唯一的污染源 大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6060.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6080.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
但是這件事情 我還看了今天早上媒體訪問你 你說這件事情它合法 好像你們環境部也無可奈何但是我要告訴部長 這件事情縱然他說它合法 它在合理的這個排放 這個可以運轉的時數但是它合理嗎 合情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6082.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6107.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
一點都不當然我們有更好的選擇我們在這個能源政策上我可以選擇一個低碳的能源的時候我不選擇這就是不合理啊另外一個核傾你有尊重人民的感受嗎今天你你今天告訴大家說核三廠二號機可以準時處理沒問題我們的電都是夠的結果實情不染嗎你把這個高污染的燃煤機組 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6108.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6134.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
還要加大它的運轉量增加這個空汙你認為人民心裡的感受是如何為什麼國家不能給我更好的選擇為什麼國家不能做出更好的決定這個就是我們看到這件事情為什麼討論了幾天人民還是那麼的在乎我相信你從民間出來人民的感受你更應該能貼近人民的感受比其他的官員我是這麼認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6136.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6150.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以在這件事情上我想問的是環境部真的沒有角色嗎在那個成員裡面你們真的不能發聲嗎不是還是有一個委員會在討論這件事情嗎我們不是要永續嗎那這件事情我要問部長的是我請教你到底環境部還能做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6157.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6178.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
基本上這個核能或是說這個電力的調度這個是屬於經濟部的這個職長必須說職長那我們當然對於他有沒有違反這個環評的這個承諾例如說他這個是720小時我們會嚴格監督去算他大概有多少這個是我們的角色所以這個那至於說委員提到的這個委員會的一個內容其實委員會其實對這個是開放的 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6180.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6206.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那我也必須說核能的啟動與否是經濟部還有核安會的權責不是我環境部的權責那你可不可以更站在一個我們怎麼樣低碳永續而且你必須對國際有減碳承諾的立場你有你們的主張而不是完全任由經濟部在掌控如果什麼都是只有經濟部那就是我們現在看到的狀況經濟部他只是說我就是反正各種能源我不去 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6207.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6223.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我不用去擔心什麼環境永續的問題我也不用擔心減碳的承諾那都不是他的職責但是我覺得各部會就是各自有各自的角色環境部應該要把你的立場拿出來就是說我反對在能源選項裡面你去用高污染的嘛這是你們可以講的當你可以有選擇權的時候沒有選擇權當然就沒得談 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6227.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6248.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
但是當還有選擇權的時候選擇一個最佳方案對環境永續對於減碳更好的方案我覺得環境部你是可以有角色的你們是可以講的這個就可以達到要不然環境永續就是講假的我們接下來看一下我們現在台灣每人每一天的使用量是世界最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6249.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6259.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
如果你去平均這個人均的話 我們比中國大陸還要高平均每一個人 每一電用量來到4859.6瓦特這個是國際上的數據 分攤下來就是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6266.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6267.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
所以在這樣的情況底下還要讓煤電來救援嗎我們的興達電廠 大林電廠已經除役的機組還要來救援嗎這個是為什麼台中市長盧秀燕她當時在看中國的議題的時候為什麼是增一減一 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6284.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6305.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
如果今天增加天然氣機組 這個原來的燃煤就應該要拆掉不拆掉的後果就是這樣子嘛 不夠的時候就拿高污染的來救援嘛在這樣的情況底下 我們這個在世界排名 這個數據 這個第一名是不好看的我們不需要每人平均煤電用量高達這麼高 這個是應該要下降的數據啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6308.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6324.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以這件事情我覺得目前的政策完全是往一個錯誤的政策去走另外一個我們現在放任這個煤電去用的話這個減碳目標這個就是會造成你環境部你永遠沒有辦法達標我們過去溫室氣體減量的這個目標沒有一次達標的比起 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6332.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6341.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
也只是2%也拿不到啊第二期要少10%那更是更是不可能的任務啊只有減量1.79%啊已經確定就是跳票了沒有 我也還沒有到因為我們2023年是4.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6348.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6375.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
還沒有到嗎 那你可不可以告訴大家我們不會跳票嗎我們是希望再努力啦因為目前我們有在估算大概2025應該可以到達大概8到9左右的確還差一點點但是我們一定在這個減碳的一個路徑上你現在這個燃煤電廠還火力全開你這麼的有自信啊目前是 我們目前是用我們各種你可能還沒有算到這幾天燃煤電廠又大開的這個情況吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6377.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6390.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
他基本上是用整年的這樣方式來算的好我們可以看至少目前看到數據就是差很遠第三期你們還拉高了你的目標值本來要減量24%現在你們設定是28% |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6395.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6414.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
這是在畫大餅不會 這個我們有一個努力的目標而且經過他們這個包含能源部門提供的一個數據我們都有核實再去能源部門 對經濟部嗎對對對你還相信他嗎我覺得經濟部就是害你這個整個減碳目標不能達到的部分你還相信他提供的數據這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6416.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6436.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我覺得錯誤的能源政策真的是會害全民受苦我目前這個我感受非常深刻看看別的國家想想自己我就覺得為什麼大家羨慕瑞士他生活的高品質他的整個環境的永續他整個狀態那麼的好因為他上位的政策是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6438.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6447.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
當我看到台灣我們在倒退走的時候還在燃煤廠火力全開的時候我真的覺得我們這個政府到底在想什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6448.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6469.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
當你有更好的選擇的時候你沒有幫人民選擇我只能講這個就是對不起人民對不起人民的健康我希望錯誤的政策要盡快的修正因為這個為官者你的服務對象是人民不是自己偏執的理念非核家園在台灣其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6470.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6498.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不可能實現的也不應該實現的因為台灣沒有條件我們跟瑞士很像如果瑞士需要核能的話台灣有什麼本事我們其實可以完全不用核能我真的想不明白這個道理那如果要用燃煤來取代核能我是堅決反對的因為這個違反環境永續也違反人民的健康我想我們都應該去選擇一個更好的政策一切是為了人民 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6502.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6506.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好 謝謝 接下來請蘇金淺 周偉來做詢問好 謝謝主席 我請部長我們袁 袁 袁 袁 袁署長別著我今天三個問題請教你第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6534.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6554.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
這是我們的離島可能很多人不知道我們全台灣的離島的垃圾全部都運到台灣本島來處理包括屏東的小琉球 綠島 蘭嶼包括連澎湖 金門 農莊上場對不對對啦好來我先第一 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6563 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6572.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個 把它放大可以嗎沒辦法放大嗎要結算喔 沒辦法沒辦法拉大好 來來來先看這邊 看右左邊那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6591.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6602.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我們用小琉球為例,它有兩個處理垃圾的委外案第一個叫做垃圾轉運站營運管理這個議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6607.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6617.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
議案就是一般廢棄物轉運期監督我想所有的理事長都會這樣做啦這兩個案子 欸 柏廷你看看這是三十四億欸你怕死人 你怎麼無農的啊千萬 百萬 千萬 億 十億三十四億 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6633.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6644.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
342萬啦 怕不對啦 抱歉跟委員報告 這顯然是錯誤 屏東環保局可能在打的時候打錯那我們同仁也要通知他 他現在應該是342萬啦 已經請他改正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6660.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6671.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那你的招標是四百六十九萬嘛人家都有在看耶你也這樣一張臉被人家笑死了啊另外一間 還有多少?包委員剛才所指的兩個案子齁它其實是同一筆同一個一個所以是兩個案子還是一個案子? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6690.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6703.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
他是分兩個計畫,但是是同一個案同一個案子,兩個計畫?是所以兩個報告是一樣?他會分別,他有一個轉運計畫,一個管理計畫兩個的報告是一樣,我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6714.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6716.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以這個,我們在留學後,我們就去實際考察我們看那個垃圾 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6721.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6750.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
打包之後弄到船然後就到鹽埔漁港然後車子就載出來嘛是有的車子是就直接載車子就從小琉球然後那個車子就直接開到接駁船上面然後船就拉著走然後到東港到新衍這邊就直接開出去了是這樣嘛所以這是把他調做一個官吏一個操作這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6754.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6755.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
他們想要求多一點的資源,你覺得怎麼樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6761.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6779.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
報告委員小琉球的要求我們會再考慮檢討不過目前小琉球的運輸費用是全國最高他甚至比今天運回來還要貴這個部分可能還要檢討一下我們看他的實際的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6781.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6796.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
因為它的遊客真的是非常多然後呢民宿現在已經400多家了然後遊客很多都兩個都去過所以這個都島是你們撥錢給屏東縣環保局去執行所以這個錢100%都是你們給的100%都是你們...是的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6807.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6828.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
好那這個要加強那第二個我們防管署我們在第18項第18款第4項第18款第5項黨團的這一些凍結案我就統一起來問剛剛很多委員問了很多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6829.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6833.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
在垃圾不漏地的這一項到登革熱颱風現在又來了你有什麼想法跟做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6841.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6858.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
再來一些工廠的VOC等等這些有沒有什麼想法是 向委員報告其實在我們的登革熱防制上面我們在北中南從去年開始每一年分為北中南 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6859.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6878.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
各實施實兵演練那這些實兵演練就是大家在別的縣市如果機具由我們調度到現場不管是災害或者是這個登革熱等等之類的那這種高師演練跟現場演練北中南山區各有責任去我們做演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6878.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6906.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那在工廠的VOC上面我們是以科技執法那在我們的年度預算裡面也有顯示在上面希望透過遠端的監控方式來做處理這個是一個科技執法的一個那所以你跟各縣市的環保局都有在監控這些瓶瓶罐罐啊颱風過後像這樣這兩天雨這樣下那些清除都有在監控嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6907.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6933.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
是 這一個它清除完畢會跟我們回報它的數量當然我們也是有一個系統來如果哪一個縣市它有需要資源的話我們會去調度其他的資源或其他縣市來做資源清除所以如果他們做得好有評比 有獎勵 有沒有有 我們在年度的績效評比制度裡面是有這一項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6934.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6949.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
好那第三個問題就是我要問部長你剛剛一直在講的環境跟AI的監控那你現在做的是有做到哪一些AI的 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6951.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6973.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
AI第一個是說我們那個對於空瓶的預測例如說現在PM2.5多少像我自己我是敏感體質啊我PM2.5我就設定20以上就會push給我啊那個呢就經過AI去算未來會到20例如說他一直提升他就會主動去推估未來多少那我就手機就會收到啊這個就保障每個人的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6974.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7001.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那各縣市的這些data如果是有超過預警值你們的署長啊你們的高階的人會顯示你的手機會顯示出來嗎有有我舉例例如說要是發生火災火災往哪裡飄那個煙往哪裡飄我們大概即時都會得到回報消防署會給我們那我們也有自己的所以這個都會提醒來預警做超前的步驟 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7001.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7019.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
有危險值的通報對不對有有有我們自己內部都有可以看得到你看你的手機就會顯示出來對三更半夜也都有也都有對這樣的話那你剛剛另外一個講說家庭裡面也會產生PM2.5你是在說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7021.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7038.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
沒有啦,我們開一個GAS,開豬柴,一直砰,那個就是等於是燒天然氣嘛,其實那個時候PM2.5就會跳起來,我們有算過大概會到三四十啦,為客啦,因為差不多家裡如果你很乾淨的話,大概都是十以下, |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7039.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7054.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我們家裡用的那個那個是自然瓦斯一桶一桶那個是中國石油公司煉油的時候所產生的副產品那我們剛剛一直在講瓦斯船 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7056.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7084.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
再來要給台灣發電用的那個是液態天然氣那個兩個來源是不同的但是它原理是類似的當然但是這是石油在蒸餾的時候在分類的時候從產生的那一個瓦斯應該講瓦斯它裡面應該是比液態天然氣還多樣化裡面的化學物質可能會更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7084.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7106.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們家裡面的其實也不少我們現在會啟動研究調查啦就是說因為像其實有人說要家裡要換電磁爐會比較好啦但是也有一些國外研究說沒差是你要吃什麼例如說國外有研究肩培根PM2.5可以到2000啦所以這個其實我們一直很想要用健康的觀點來保障每個國人的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7107.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7131.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
就是說炸豬排啊那個其實PM2.5的都在美國你看到很多用電爐啦他們都220的230齁他們都用電爐他們很少像我們用炸的用炸的那我們的瓦斯就是桶裝的瓦斯或天然瓦斯自來瓦斯我在想裡面因為是煉油的過程所產生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7132.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7136.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
護膠物它裡面可能會比液態天然氣還多樣化 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7139.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7163.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
化學成分會更多有沒有研究過這個包委員這個部份國內的調查我有問我同仁目前過去調查的很少像我們洗熱水澡也是用瓦斯其實也會產生出來其實生活裡面的這個就是我們要調查的重點所以這個你要往這個方面研究就是說你這間廁所你現在燒出來的東西燒不完整不完全燃燒 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7164.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7184.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
為什麼冬天關個窗戶洗個熱水澡就會溼人那都是這樣是不是有其他的化學物質那是一氧化碳中毒當然你說一氧化碳但是我覺得它稍微有很多稍微不完整的稍微不完全的那些化學物質搞不好那裡面有一二十種成分 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7185.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7212.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以這個環保署你要去研究這個啦是是 我現在我們今年會有一個重點就是健康啦 健康的市長 你可能要去做一些研究啦 好不好好 那最後一個就是我們屏東很多人 王一民講到幾大堆齁這些煤 這些發電廠一直飄飄飄齁我一直從小到現在那個臨沿石化工業區齁我對它真的是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7214.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7217.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
就給你小的啦那真的迷茫茫 燈光那裡 燈光那裡這麼多的 肺部的問題啦我跟那邊是絕對的關係啦那你新達大林 漂過來的那屏東本身 你說你用AI在監控那些農業機械啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7241.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7256.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
如果用柴油燒 很多的民眾操作的農民如果用柴油燒積聚的話 那個對身體還是不好啦所以這個其實我們以後也要來注意啦我有發現到這一塊 所以我們一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7257.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7259.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
來研究看看,看看怎麼那個,好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7279.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7285.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
所以王委員是說代表臺灣到WHA為臺灣發聲,各位再鼓掌一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7308.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7309.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
郭文貴議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7975.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7981.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好 休息時間到 請各位回座那我們接下來請王志旭委員來做審打 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7990.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8012.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
好 謝謝主席也謝謝剛剛主席的美言跟鼓勵的確這次去日內瓦參加相關的會議尤其是世界衛生大會有更多的國家不管是離岸相近或是我們邦交國真的都很希望台灣有機會不管是當觀察員或者是直接進到議場去參與討論都有給我們更多的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8016.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8037.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那也跟當地的議員們也討論到說這個我們的議員國會之間怎麼交流他們也很期待台灣給予更多的協助跟討論尤其是他們發現當地的青少年自殺比例其實越來越高他們也很擔心那他們也知道台灣做的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8038.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8052.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
還有一些成果所以未來我們有更多的機會來跟他們一起共同討論那其他還有很多現在不方便跟大家報告的地方我們找機會再來做討論謝謝主席那我們就請部長請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8057.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8080.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
黃委員好部長好今天有三個部分來跟部長這邊做討論包括這個廚餘的分類的政策還有這個移動噪音的防治第三項就是空污統計的資訊我想剛剛最後一項很多委員都有跟部長討論過那第一個部分就是廚餘分類我們什麼時候要吃粽子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8082.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8100.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
應該過兩天嘛端午節所以這個種葉到底是當作什麼垃圾來處理是一般垃圾還是可以當作回收的廚餘我不知道目前種葉是垃圾但是裡面沒吃完的種子是廚餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8101.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8126.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
是這樣子這是中央的態度嗎還是說每一個縣市有不同的處理方式是 向委員報告其實中業這部分各縣市的處理方式不一致它會依照它後端的去處跟它處理方式會有不同是 所以重要的是各個縣市它自己處理的方式或者是它的量能不一樣所以它的規範不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8127.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8152.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
是的譬如說有一些是拿去養豬或者是他就不會把種葉認為是所以盡量把它吃完不過好像有一些外國人來台灣吃粽子的時候會把粽葉順便也吃下去他以為是一個生菜一樣不過我們可以看一下其實真的各個縣市有很大的不一樣那彰化縣跟新北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8153.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8173.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
它是當作我們看一下下一個畫面就知道三化縣跟新北市把它當作一般垃圾高雄市把它當作這個堆毀廚餘這個是很不一樣的地方那我們再看往下其實除了這個應景的種業以外我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8174.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8192.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
很多很多的這個廚餘的分類是差很多包括以骨頭為例那骨頭的話新北市要把這個骨頭當作這個其他的廚餘丟入一般垃圾來處理這個是新北市的做法然後我們看到台北市又不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8193.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8221.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
台北市有把這個當作廚餘堆毀的廚餘要回收這個回收是部分大小的骨頭只要是骨頭就把它當作台北市就把它當作這個堆毀廚餘那我們再看一下台東台東也不太一樣台東又把這個骨頭分為大骨頭小骨頭如果是屬於這個積壓壓的小骨頭當作一個部分生熟的廚餘來處理那如果是大骨頭的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8223.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8244.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
是變成一個處理一般垃圾來處理意思就是說剛剛署長也提到根據這個每一個縣市的處理方式不同考量斜內清除處理的設施還有去化管道食物的需求會處理到不同的方式覺得這樣好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8246.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8263.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這樣的處理方式會不會對民眾造成一種我住在新北市我在台北市工作那我中午的處理垃圾模式就跟晚上我回到家處理垃圾模式不一樣這樣會不會造成困惑或困擾這部分不知道再過來有什麼好的方式沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8264.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8284.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
因為廚餘的後端處理,有些像剛才提到的粽葉或者是骨頭這個因為它後面有沒有粉碎的設備,或者是它粉碎的設備到什麼程度等等之類的,它各地會有不同的處理方式,不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8285.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8299.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
原則上在我們請到廚餘的時候各地的清潔隊如果發現這個分類不對會做交易那這種交易只要交一次民眾大概就可以接受了那當然還是會有因為像 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8300.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8313.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
委員所提的就是說我第一次來我可能站不到這個不過整體而言那個清潔隊是第一線他會跟民眾講什麼去做的確是有這個狀況不過我也會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8316.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8335.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
追著垃圾車丟廚餘或是丟很多的垃圾我們很壓抑就是好像我們很努力的把它做好分類拿去把它撈起來好像它就就是你放到那個就跟我們期待的其實是不一樣的我是不太清楚大家的生活經驗如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8336.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8363.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我意思是說 當我們很努力的想要配合各個縣市要做這些垃圾分類的時候往往到了現場 到垃圾現場發現他放置的方式或者是位置跟我們期待不一樣我們就覺得 這樣我們要做這個除以垃圾的分類有意義嗎這個部分 所以我們才提了一些想是不是透過方便民眾執行跟落實分類的方式來做調理 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8363.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8387.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那方便清潔隊員跟業者處理的處置模式來把這個垃圾的分類可以做得更好那當然也可以方便各級政府來做機關的宣傳那如果沒有辦法就好像剛剛署長所提到部長所提到的因為每一個縣市他處理垃圾的量能還有他的能力是不一樣的話那如果沒有辦法一步到位全國統一能不能做區域整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8388.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8415.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
生活圈理論上我剛舉個例子我平常在基隆以前是白天在基隆上班我回到台北市的時候我的處理模式如果區域能夠整合到一個程度的話對於未來垃圾的處理會不會讓民眾可以更有好的配合模式這部分不知道部裡面有沒有可以進行規劃或者是如何跟各縣市來做一些統合 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8418.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8426.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我們那個廚藝的部分其實在110年有訂定一個廚藝的分類的指引這當然指引是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8429.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8448.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
後端有講究說各縣市可以依照它的實際的狀況再做細部的調整那區域的合作方面謝謝委員指導我們下去之後來跟各地方政府環保局來做一個協調談談看有沒有這個機會或者是大家如何去合作等這個部分我們來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8449.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8471.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
好啊在麻煩部裡面書裡面這邊來加油那第二個部分就是有關的這個移動噪音員的防治之前也有跟部長討論過我目前知道很多移動噪音其實很對於尤其在渡會區裡面對民眾的影響不管是在深夜或者是突然一個大的噪音造成的影響其實蠻大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8472.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8497.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那這邊所造成的這個車輛噪音稽查下來差不多是有佔了11.07%那這部分我們也知道在取締上有某一些的困難度所以上一次部長也提到說希望能夠針對於這個源頭做管理這邊有提了兩個部分就是除了這個設置聲音照相透過科技執法來取締噪音 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8497.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8506.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
車以外那就是改裝排氣源的這個源頭管理那不知道目前執行狀況有沒有可以提供我們做參考的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8507.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8532.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
向委員報告目前這個有關排氣管認證的部分目前已經在實施從今年1月1號開始那我們也提供就是經本部認證有400多組的這個排氣管讓民眾選擇那此外在那個聲音照相的部分呢我們目前其實正在爭取公務預算在今年年底的時候我們希望全國可以設置300套然後到118年的時候能夠設到600套來增加這個科技執法的量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8532.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8560.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
是 所以取地的量還有本身的源頭管理都有在有開始 今年1月的時候開始OK 好 那我們期待會有一些成果出來那最後就是有關於這個空污統計的資訊我想很多委員都已經剛剛也跟部長討論過那王秘遠委員這次其實我們一起去瑞士包括劉書斌委員對於當地的空氣的確都非常羨慕當然他們有他們的環境也有他們的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8562.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8580.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那針對這部分不知道除了說當初部長很希望大家更能理解很多的空氣污染除了我們現在的政策之外還有其他的一些科學數據告訴民眾說我們空氣的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8581.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8601.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
當然還可以再進步可是一些科學根據也告訴我們大家民眾其實除了如何保護自己以外也知道努力的方向跟進步的部分那這部分可不可以請部長利用這個時間再跟全國民眾做一些說明好 謝謝委員因為其實瑞士 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8602.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8628.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個為什麼比較好?它跟人口的密度有很大的關係其實它的人口密度跟台灣是差別很大那人其實生活裡面就會產生很多的污染物例如說我們的煮菜或各方面那我們一般的這個空污的計算呢基本上PM2.5是代表所有污染物包含Suck, Snug直接或是衍生性的污染物所以我們通常都是用PM2.5來做一個計算所以現在國際的這個期刊假設我們談癌症 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8629.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8644.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
跟這種所謂的健康的關係都是用PM2.5來做代表那因為其實空污非常的深那很多人不是很瞭解所以其實委員我們其實五月中的時候也發布了這個空品的白皮書那當然這個部分因為我們才剛完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8644.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8671.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以未來我們會強化跟社會大眾的一個溝通因為其實我們日常生活當中我們不管是家裡面其實就有很多產生PM2.5的來源那我們在室內的機會會比較多當然我必須說我們戶外的那個管制我們環境部這是我們的職責我們會要求不管是公營機關或是私立其實我們都有管制他們每一根煙囪我們都有這個監控的這個設備在那邊我們未來一定會嚴格的來管制希望的污染物可以減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8673.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8694.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
其實像部長所提到的瑞士它的面積是四萬平方公里左右比台灣稍微多一點他們人口是八百萬左右只有我們的三分之一左右所以生活條件不一樣當然造成的環境都不太一樣不過的確也希望大家繼續努力就麻煩部長謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8704.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8704.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
有請光臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8715.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8740.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們接下來麻煩我們的趙偉來發言,劉建國趙偉,請好,謝謝主席,那有請部長好,有請部長那你再請一下嚴署長好,有請嚴署長好,趙偉好,剛剛王委員跟我立馬那個藏野蛙,藏野蛙怎麼會一國三制 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8741.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8754.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
有的電子晶體去凹開的,有的電子晶體的動作是垃圾的,我想這不是跟基隆台北市對的對的問題,台北市跟同盟也對的對的問題,同盟市跟省財省也對的對的問題,同盟市也有人向老闆向台東上班,上班所也對,也對台東說要回同盟。 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8760.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8779.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
在台中有一個處理方針,在台北有一個處理方針,在台東有一個處理方針,我們中央環境部沒辦法跟政府通過一個規範,它到底是分手,到底是要拿去堆肥,還是要拿去吃,當然外國人要吃我們沒意見,吃土也不是你環境部管的,是FDA管的,但是我們有一個政府的合法的處理方針, |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8781.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8799.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們人均沒多少通他的要求到幾分指引指引難道只是做參考之用沒有道理骨頭大小因為後端處理的這個機械可能有一些問題所以也不盡其難的同一個標準那那就奇怪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8800.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8813.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
垃圾不落地 資源回收 資源的整個分類整個制定的政策的最高主管機關不是在環境部嗎環境部一旦制定完之後當然你地方政府就要有所遵循啊但台灣是一個多數國家 一個小小的多數國家而已讓一個辣雞分類主管維修一個帳的規劃有辦法說中央是這樣訂啦從來讓你自己去做參考因為你有記憶的問題 所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8830.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8834.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以有的歐比,所以有的價位,所以有的動作本首那些生命力大家怎麼好到這樣?不舒服?不對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8842.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8871.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
你如果說今天高雷死了,中央有中央政策,中央政府在台灣現在就分比較多,高雷他自己管治,可以生育,可以提款,你要再提一塊,那我們不用作動嘛,那我們也不用訂標準嘛,對不對?但是那些人都是要福利,你中央訂了,相關的法律訂完之後,你只要有一些進好進貼,你抵觸到既有的社福來講,他是可以折衣折糕,折衣去做處理嘛, |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8872.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8884.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
他還是要幫你抵觸咧但是怎麼會在社會分裂資源回收一個帳那裡可以一國獨自所以我覺得不夠順利所以你現在可以做民靠的因為我們這都是現場轉播的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8886.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8908.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好,謝謝委員指導,以葬儀為例,有位館長認為他是比較長纖,他的破碎如果可以破碎得比較細,他就可以早去堆肥,如果他沒有辦法破碎得那麼細的話,他就可能會用作本所去處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8910.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8937.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
阿不可這個委員的意見我們會參考是不是請大家再來檢討像類似骨頭或者是重業這種東西啊大家有沒有同意的一個做法這個我想我們可以來做討論不是因為我剛剛聽王委員的這個垂詢基本上應該是這麼講就是說我在我可能我工作是在基隆那我住是要住在台北 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8937.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8961.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
但是我可能遇到中餐可能遇到晚餐我這樣的一個分類就只有一個隔壁的縣市就不一樣這不對啦這絕對不對我覺得環境部應該負起這個責任該怎麼處理就怎麼處理該怎麼去補強就怎麼去補強應該有一套統一的標準嘛不然身在一個島嶼的國家中華民國的一個國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8963.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8985.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
一個戰略的分類要因為不同縣市然後做不同的處置不同的處理跟應變這不對啦這絕對不是政府為政之道啦好不好好 委員這個我們來檢討就是說看如何整合能夠有一個統一的一個方法我們來努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長一個月可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8986.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8992.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
可以 好 謝謝好 這剛才是 抱歉啦 題材啦不是姿勢啦 別誤會我現在要把它放在補充啦兩年拜前在這個地方也就是我們補充就希望把這個綠營人才培訓培育課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9000.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9022.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
將中低收入跟還有深藏全額做這樣一個補助那我很很很很很高興也很肯定部長可以這樣的積極作為馬上在這個21號上週就已經宣布綠營人才這個培育課程納入中低收入戶及深藏全額補助比照比照低收入的標準做全額的補助再強調一次所以這邊我再度跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9024.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9049.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
部長表達最高的一個謝意跟敬意謝謝委員的指正這個讓全國的這些中低收入還有這些身上朋友看到一個曙光也看到這個事情的這樣的一個大家可以關注的一個亮點那我相信未來這個報評的人數會因為這樣子會有更好的一個成長的比例因為我們想說可能這短短的一兩年或是兩三年綠營人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9050.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9065.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
就會追過所謂的AI這個人才的這樣的一個需求跟這個標準值所以我在這邊還是再度跟部長做一下的肯定不過勞工這一塊好像到現在還沒有消息報告委員因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9066.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9088.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那個我跟洪部長有交換過兩次的意見啦那因為最主要是說他那邊的勞工跟我們在大學訓練的這個方式跟形態樣態不一樣所以我們還在協調所以在委員再給我們一點點時間我們會討出一個方案那天你在問安博長安博長你在跟我說有一點意有所措像環境部的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9096.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9114.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
因為他們的勞工通常跟我們這個大學裡面受訓的樣態學生那個情境是不大一樣的他有特別提醒我這一點啊他們那邊那個他們每個分署等於是說等於是有他的這個樣態所以他們是希望我們去他們那邊上課啦所以這個還在協調當中啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9116.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9126.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
如果有問題,我不是說你一定會去罵,是紅布丁的問題,紅布丁也不一定會罵你啦,不會受罵啦,如果真的有這麼多麻煩,無法解決,不然我請主席,請你去喝咖啡這樣也好,因為現在這都是,全部都要協助勞工嘛,跟社會勞工嘛,我想這也是要給布丁多一點面積啦,好不好,有這個部分嘛,不知道這樣的話,我再問布丁是不是對他有保? |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9142.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9167.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
因為你剛才沒有說是在大學的通識課程包括在高中生的環境的課程裡面其實都應該可以來討論如果把它再用最快的速度把它納入對 包括我們那個下學等於下半年會針對高中生來推動啦這個教育部也同意了會跟我們合作高中生有OK 那就很棒了因為我們應該是可以邁向 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9167.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9183.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
全民綠領了這樣的一個目標來打拚嘛所以可能各個階層所以現在反正現在政府已經有溝通了下個會期就可以來實施那最好不過了不過針對勞工還有失業勞工我還是希望部長可以做盡快的一個處理的方式啦好不好應該說一天一百就該過來嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9184.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9194.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
因為那個 他們 我們也開過會啦我們要請我們院長稍微講一下 好不好不然他站在那邊沒說也不好意思跟委員報告一下因為他們 因為他們勞工的 他們的課程有補貼還有一個 他們的時數很晚欸因為我們只有48小時是針對台行的那個教材都是針對大學那個層級在安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9205.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9218.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
所以現在要用事業勞工來設計,這個要去另外設計,不然勞工來上課說教材這樣不大好,那是另外一個問題,所以我們要討論怎麼操作模式比較好所以我們要討論這個操作模式,不然我一定要向鄉愁找找這第一點,第一點就是說經營不是問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9224.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9237.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
他們已經經常有相關去做一些調整而已所以這應該不是騙錢的問題 應該是看大家有一個共識讓國家來把這個勞工跟社會勞工可以拿進去做處理我想這是一件很重要的事 也很需要國家來做一件事好不好好 我們趕緊來處理啦好啊 如果還有一星期就不是這樣一直跟他比啦好 謝謝 市長部長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9253.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9255.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
好 謝謝劉委員的質詢 謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請張其凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9283.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9285.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
天空的這個顏色啊是一個國家進步的象徵 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9298.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9327.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
你是專家你應該聽過這句話空汙的多少也是國家進步跟落後的一個象徵柏定你上任以後天空的顏色有進步還是退步二氧化硫氮氧化物酸雨越來越多還是越來越少全民都在看這幾天很多人都在討論你的講法你說要了解PM2.5多少可是很多學者專家提起你 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9329.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9332.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
空屋啊除了PM2.5其實啦淡涼化屋流氧化屋也是很嚴重的對不對淡涼化屋大概佔整個空屋比例大概16.5%嘛如果是流氧化屋40.4%啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9346.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9371.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我今天提這個是希望說 你的天空是進步的你現在監控PM2.5的同時 要注意所有的好不好報告委員 我說一下定義喔PM2.5含直接排放 還有衍生性的衍生性就包含SAX NAX就是你說的氮氧化物跟硫氧化物它是一個懸浮微粒所以我們講健康 是會拿PM2.5來跟健康各種的病去做比較的所以這是國際上通用的一個做法 我並沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9372.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9401.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
現在是兩個問題啦一個就是不要只看到那個小微粒啦其他要放進去第二個現在有人在說啊你把它全台灣平均起來不要只有看玉山把玉山放進來 把阿里山放進來空氣通路的台東 橋 花蓮現在通驚中立道事實上就517飛河加岸以後大家在擔心的是什麼就中火嘛中火的污染源就是從這個一燒起來燒煤炭開始從苗栗一直到高雄嘛 對不對然後這幾天引起最大爭議的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9403.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9417.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
就是星達三號跟四號嘛那燒煤炭就繼續燒嘛就是本來用這個核能的時候它是低碳或者是無碳的那一下燒煤炭的時候污染就增加嘛這些比較值嘛 對不對所以我才講就是說你這個部長要是進步的還是退步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9418.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9435.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
包委員第一個是說我們有嚴格的去監控每一個地方的空汙在這個過去一兩個禮拜我們台灣的空氣品質當然我必須說天氣比較好也有下雨我們的空氣品質並沒有變差第一個第二個委員說的這個平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9435.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9450.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
全世界都是一樣我們有32個手動式標準的策戰那個標準是用這種所謂的手動式要過濾到水氣的影響所以我們跟日本跟韓國是一樣有一樣共通的跟美國一樣的標準所以我們才做這樣的比較的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9452.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9477.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
剛剛你有一句話我是肯定的就是說你說除了室內跟室外之外室外你說還是要去努力嘛對不對對當然我就希望你是往進步的方向走啦跟我剛剛那個比較只是個很明顯的像核能是低碳無碳的時候你燒了煤燒了天然氣當然就是增加嘛對不對那你就有責任盡量讓它要避免要是變少的啊第二個是整體去談我希望大家以後在評判你的時候就今天又有媒體用社論在評判啊你說不要用廢發電這個字眼啊其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9480.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9494.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
如果空氣有汙染空汙是嚴重的就是用生命在發電啊用廢啊用健康在發電啊報告委員那個我講一下啦像今天秀芳在這中華因為中華受害中華也是很嚴重的中華是廢線來鑽台灣通街嘛而且全民就在注意這個事情當你廢核加研完之後今天主席在這剛剛那個劉建國 劉主席主席現在不在與你那個麥寮電廠古泥河山廠的一號機停了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9511.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9537.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
就是繼續賣掉電廠啊全台灣最大污染源發電的第一就是中火嘛對不對第一次就賣掉啊賣掉本來4月份已經停了啊火已經滿了啊要緊急去續約啊所以劉建國他們就受害啊所以那一天是雲林、我家裡的鄉親台南、中華、台中幾天人來行政院控議啊還到監察院要求要調查啊就民眾的感觸是很深的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9539.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9562.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以一方面是為了大家的健康一方面空屋的這個事情你是環境部長我們會看現在的空屋有沒有任何的變化現在的數值有多少你也可以打開你的手機APP看我們現在是PM2.5的數值是多少過去這幾天台灣以中部來說的話大概就是8到9而已沒有顯著的變化高雄我們也正在看也沒有顯著的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9562.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9580.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
一個東西一個排放擴散我們環境部都有去監控任何的一個煙囪的第二個呢它擴散是一個過程它其實是一個大氣擴散是一個非常非常複雜的一個學問所以我們當然我們當然會希望它能夠減量但是造成空污的來源真的非常的多所以我說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9581.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9602.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們有一些但書,我們PM2.5的確從過去的103年是24十幾年前我們的那時候是每大概50%左右我們空品PM2.5全國南部都三四十以上的現在已經降到平均全台是12.8了我是用那樣的方式說我們其實很多的來源所以我們可以用更平時的討論包含的生活污染源、移動污染源我們一起來減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9604.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9620.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
要整體去嘛所以你說最大汙染也是高通嘛對不對所以我們就會想說要多發展這個大眾的這個運輸系統啊電動車嘛對不對那它可能還在增加所以除了整體去看之外你要看每一個事件的發生你看中火很明顯啊盧先生講得很好啊他去統計517前後的兩天啊它現時燒煤炭就增加了1.4噸啊1.4萬噸啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9628.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9651.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這數據不會騙人嘛 如果燒了1.4萬噸 空氣怎麼會變好 一定變差嘛對不對 阿等於 委員空氣我們會看實際上的空氣品質的監測值並沒有顯出的變化對啦 阿在補聽你講的嘛 它有很多種污染源嘛 包括汽車 對不對你說最大是交通嘛 那我是說整體當然要看 可是你很明顯如果從中火燒煤炭增加 當然空氣一定是 那邊一定是變不好的嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9652.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9666.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我也沒有變不好 沒有變不好你可以看過去的幾天 交通這邊變少了 或者下雨嘛啊我說單獨你單獨去看中火 中火就是前後就增加了1.4萬噸 是幹嘛 對不對那這個有沒有增加盧俊光也對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9669.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9695.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
517非核加鹽他就統計516跟518啊518中火燒的煤炭就多了1.4萬噸啊夠明確了吧這東西不會騙人吧一個空污的排放他燒多少煤他還有他的這個控制管制這個污染的這個量他有一套的技術在那邊最後擴散出去是有一個過程那個其實都受到鹽糜的監控的有在控制有在改善嘛可是他就是增加嘛對不對你會否認增加這個事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9696.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9723.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
但是我們會看但是我們會看實際上的空汙到底有多少從沒有到增加1.4萬噸這東西你怎麼會否認咧你應該沒有否認這個吧我沒有否認啦但是問題是說我們會看實際上每個民眾呼吸到的空氣的PM2.5到底是多少嘛我們從數字來看嘛所以它就是增加嘛我現在接下來跟你講高雄嘛高雄也是增加來補充一下第一個這段時間老舊這個機組從 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9726.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9738.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
高雄兩個重要基礎這個重啟 顯示什麼就是用電不夠嘛 電力不夠嘛所以政府戳破了政府這不缺電這個牛皮嘛覺得嚴重的 我覺得這就是環境部的責任了我聽 清達3號跟4號它重啟對不對它是合法的嗎合法的合法我給你看一下 古尼啊 這份 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9756.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9771.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這一份是113年5月份薛部長的書面報告他說緊急備用電力設施的啟動通報程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9773.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9786.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
為了維護供電安全跟穩定當實際或者預估系統供電餘溢就是備載容量多少6%以下台電公司可以視電力系統運轉情況啟動緊急的 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9794.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9802.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
設備以為因應 我問你一下這邊 星達3號跟4號運轉的時候 它備轉容量備轉容量 幾%我不知道 因為這個是台電它是跳入的事情他就不合照規定啊6%以下嘛 對不對這是你電池裡面的部隊嘛 8%目前我們所到的數字是8%所以台電是打臉 打臉環境不良 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9824.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9829.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
星達8% 大嶺是6%對啊這個函式裡面幾%這個是薛部長的報告啊 6%以下才可以啟動啊我再進一步給你看你們在106年的0023996號函你們的函式也是寫6%啊那這樣星達 來來保定從薛部長的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9854.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9866.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
從106年你們的含釋台電這個緊急的這個基礎他如果要備用要運轉都要6%對不對他怎麼不到6%他就可以運轉呢這沒有違反你的規定有沒有大林 說實在的啦大林電廠 大林電廠你知道幾歲了嗎大林電廠1975年耶 已經除役了 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9884.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9895.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
他在運轉那個空汙那個老舊的機組一方面危險一方面空汙嚴重嘛不過基本上大連還大連還符合你的6%我現在問的是星達3號跟4號有違反你的6%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9902.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9914.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
報告委員基本上他是一個緊急備用有一個720小時的一個限制那環評的這個承諾的是備轉容量小於8%這個是興達電廠這兩個呢符合當中一個就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9918.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9933.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
人家台電已經打臉你 已經違反你的規定了你還要幫他解釋這是環比的規範明明薛部長在立法院的報告第二個我剛跟你講這個韓式文你再查一下好不好第二個好我進一步問你你剛講說緊急備用電力設施8%這個事情這什麼時候的規定有這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9948.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9972.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
當時的環評承諾環評承諾 對這個環評承諾沒有違反你自己的含釋違反你的規定有沒有違反空污法第24條目前是沒有 因為兩個法是獨立的大聲一點 請大聲一點沒有違法 是兩個法是獨立的兩個法是獨立 一個是環評法 一個是空污法 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9975.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9994.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
公務法沒有授權這個嘛然後第二個我剛剛已經給你看了兩個重要的這個文件嘛 對不對那現在部長 你現在跟部長講的是什麼是你的環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了公務法 它怎麼會有效呢而且補充剛剛的第一個時間嘛你要6%以下嘛它的反依據有問題嘛 對不對 補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10000.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10008.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
空務法是緊急備用720小時 環評的承諾是小於8%的時候它可以運轉對阿 它怎麼可以訂一個違反空務法24條的就是6%嘛 6%跟8%差這麼多 6%什麼意思6%就是它的燈號已經從黃燈轉到橘燈橘燈就是系統性的限電可能要產生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10023.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10047.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
你降到6%以下可能隨時大停電了捏要緊急去應變捏跟8%差很多捏這邊政府碰到什麼問題就是非核家營以後核三廠的二號機佔我們所有用電的3%那剛進戶呢就再追那3%嘛追不到嘛啊你現在就是不到6%結果現在台電偷偷去啟用這個而且他連操作席可都沒有耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10049.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10054.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
第一個他沒有操作許可對不對 第二他違反你6%啊這個問題很嚴重耶部長 我們具體要求啦他的環評承諾是有問題的因為反議具有問題 你要照你原來的空污法的規定6%去走 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10068.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10088.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所以你進一步去了解一下好不好這個我們再了解一下這個當時是因為這個年代非常久了啦但是我們目前是依法它環評的承諾跟空污法兩項它其實是符合其中之一它就可以它的運作不是 它如果你說的是環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了魔法怎麼會有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10091.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10107.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
第一個你是一個進步的環境部長你是要顧著人民的健康人民的肺人民的生命所以當然是要為一方面要顧及他的健康嘛所以要先進的一個環境部長嘛第二個你要守法這個評估報告之後有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10108.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10119.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
環評承諾如果有問題就要去改啦好我做兩個建議啦好不好來博定來我們做兩件事情啦做兩件事情第一個你回去把這個當初的環評承諾為什麼有8%這個事情也沒違反你母媽媽弄清楚好不好啊直接給我重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10125.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10150.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
現在開始 現在大家發現一些火力發電 特別是燒煤的或者是燒天然氣的 50年以上的老舊的全部都開了對我們健康還有危險 這個都是問題能不能請你折成台電 這是一樣的喔公佈每一天 每一個發電廠燃燒煤的 燒油的 它用了多少的油或者多少的煤 可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10151.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10176.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這個我們要了解一下今天往這邊說才會是一個先進的而且顧到我們人民健康的部長你還是要看一下我們實際上造成我們的空氣品質的變化有多少當然我必須說這幾天天氣很好擴散很容易但是如果冬天的話可能不大一樣但是問題是說我們還是要看空污的影響你如果看那個園它如果做好污染的管控那個排出來的量就少很多這個是空氣污染這個我們有共識啦全民也有共識啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10177.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10198.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
就是說有下雨天暴雨人要用科學的數字來看因為那個空的數字到底有多少你看我們的FB就可以有了嘛中火那邊有沒有增加燒煤或者是這個星達3號4號有沒有起這個也是理性物質科學的但我也可以看我們現在的空氣品質到底多少有沒有變化嘛有沒有科學嘛就是說中部南部的空品質有沒有變化嘛我做個簡單的因為我們講的沒有衝突啦第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10203.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10221.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
空污是整體的包括交通包括工廠對不對這些全部都在裡面有沒有下雨也會影響嘛所以整體去控制是需要的可是今天更重要的就是每個具體的例如說中火裡面都燒了多少煤然後你星達3號4號本來是沒有的大林電廠本來已經是除役的你重啟那個個案當然就存在啊它從零變成有嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10227.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10244.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
這個不用辯論嘛那我現在在跟你討論的整體的要去注意整體要去注意更重要的人民已經有感有感他本來應該是領的他變成有對我們的衝擊那你要去這個又是你管的啊這個我管的啊委員你也可以看一下我們的APP我們現在的空品到底多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10245.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10271.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
你兩邊去對照就可以知道說這個問題在哪裡你現在講通案嘛 我可以說通案就是包括交通什麼那些下不下雨那個都有 那個要做啦我現在跟你講是從零變成沒有的這個很重要 因為本來沒有嘛你今天如果回頭三場二號機沒停掉你就沒有中火全開 因為火力全開啊就沒有興達電廠的三號機 四號機重啟啊也沒有大林電廠五十年的老舊除役的又重來嘛 是不是這樣這個當然是你管的 你要去注意啊 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10272.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10287.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們會管現在的空瓶到底有沒有變化我們這個有智慧的主席已經站起來很久了通案處理然後個案零到沒有的要趕快監控確保我們的安全跟健康謝謝謝謝部長的答詢下一位麻煩黃協防委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10303.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10306.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
謝謝主席 我們請部長好 要請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10309.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10336.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
黃委員好 部長剛剛張委員在詢問我剛剛有上網看了台電每一天的發電量多少那他是燃油燃氣或者是氣墊共生他的比例在網路上面都有所以等一下請張委員其實也可以在網路上面搜尋一下另外當然就是說空污的這個議題對張化的委員來講其實我們都非常的關心尤其是張化 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10337.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10350.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
北邊有這個中火台中火力發電廠那南邊有六清那每一天到底這個火力發電廠或六清這個發電所造成的這個空污的部分那剛剛我也聽到部長講說你們都有在監測那當然這個污染的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10356.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10363.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這個源頭有很多啦剛剛有特別提到其實固定污染源和移動污染源那彰化這邊其實我還有一個議題我想請教部長的就是說除了你們有去監測這兩個就是說這 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10372.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10396.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個桌邊火力發電廠或者是六輕這桌邊的這個空污的狀況你們應該是每一天每每時時都在監測嘛對不對時時都在監測那我想請教就是說這幾天從這個上個禮拜這個河山廠停機之後那到現在那個整個中部地區的這個空瓶的部分是不是有明顯的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10397.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10412.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
報告委員這個其實沒有任何的波動但是每天的這個波動會因為氣象的因素的變化有一些差別那目前來看的話我們從5月17號之後到目前為止空品沒有顯著的變化是都是良好等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10414.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10430.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那也有可能是最近這幾天下雨的關係所以在這邊本席也要求就是環境部針對這一部分應該是實時監測如果有一旦沒有下雨然後整個空氣品質狀況是有顯著的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10433.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10449.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
明顯的變差我也希望就是說這個不是只有環境部的這個責任應該能源這邊或者是台電我覺得都應該要大家都要有責任那另外就是說我看到一個另外一個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10450.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10467.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
在之前我有詢問過我們部長就是說移動污染源的這個部分然後可能很多來自於汽機車那這個汽機車的這個污染其實我們也希望就是說這個老舊的汽機車我們也希望就是能夠逐年汰換那這個其實也是一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10471.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10482.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
空氣污染一個很大的一個主要原因另外就是說在我們環境部在之前也有在鼓勵工業用的這個鍋爐鍋爐的這個鈦換可能由燃油換為這個燃氣那我想請教就是說像這 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10490.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10508.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這個這一部分你們目前做的狀況是怎樣我知道說好像是2030年希望就是說全部燃油是不是可以全部換為燃氣那這個狀況你們目前做的這個進度是怎樣報告委員那個淨零的策略裡面有一項就是所謂的非電力的製造業這種所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10510.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10533.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
鍋爐全部改換成燃氣這個是我們既定的政策那我舉例例如說像我們目前的空瓶從103年的24維克PM2.5降到現在12.8其實如果以中部來看的話最大的貢獻其實有一個當年那個李應元署長當署長的時候他就是花了很多空污費去做這樣的一個改善其實這個成效是非常好的當然我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10534.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10552.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
以彰化來說的話還有那我們未來呢應該會再逐步的加強管制的力道希望那個管換的這個機會換的速度可以更快一點點好那我們希望就是說不只是這個中部地區的空污的部分其實不只是只有中火啦或者是六清 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10553.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10568.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
也許還有其他的這個這個中融其實中融也是一個很大的這個空氣污染的一個這個非常大的一個主要原因啦對啊那像這部分的話你們針對中融的部分你們有做什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10569.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10579.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
要求他們要做什麼樣的這個改善嗎我們目前其實我有請我同仁找到一個例如說因為中榮也算是泛國營事業以目前國營事業113年的排放量跟105年相比台電是減72是最多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10584.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10605.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那中融呢 減得比較少 大概只有18%那中鋼呢 就40%這個污染的量減少非常的多那其實這個部分呢 我們應該給好的要給墾丁更多如果像這樣 它跟別的 例如說跟中鋼比它18% 中鋼已經做到40%那我們會再督促它 能不能做出更有效的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10606.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10621.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以我覺得就是這個空氣汙染的這個大戶其實我覺得你們應該要多用力一些其實不只只有中火其實我剛剛提到的這個中榮的這個部分其實也是一個非常這個空氣汙染的 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10625.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10651.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這個非常嚴重的一個廠家所以我們也希望如果說你跟中鋼來比的話中鋼都可以做到這個百分之四十那為什麼中榮沒辦法做到所以我覺得環境部針對這部分應該還要再加強另外我想請教就是說去年監察院有針對我們環境部就是有關這個判定價制度就是一直好像沒有一個比較明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10653.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10668.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
這個制定下來這個探定價一直都沒辦法很明確那另外就是說2050的這個淨零排放第二期的這個目標好像也這個2025年第二期都快結束了這個目標好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10669.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10683.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好像還沒辦法去達到那我想請教部長針對這個監察院這邊的一個糾正那你們要怎麼去達成這樣子第二期的目標那另外就是有關探定價的這個制度你們什麼時候會定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10684.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10711.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
因為探聽架其實是今年1月1號開始有探費開始實施所以探聽架已經完成了那這個是非常艱鉅的一個挑戰那委員跟委員報告其實監察院並沒有糾正啦是調查啦那目前其實我們的這個減量係數我們上一個2022年是跟2005年是減1.77那我們最新的數字2023年已經減到4.64那我們目前看2024初估可能會有到5到6%左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10711.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10733.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那2025就今年我們因為那個要整個事情發生了之後要隔一年多經過所有的數據統計完才能出來所以我們目前推估2025年當然要看今年的景氣好不好目前我們推估應該有機會到8到9%左右所以當然離我們原來的階段改進目標希望到10一點點差距但是我們的確在減量的速度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10735.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10751.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
部長我想請教就是說你們有關這個2050的淨零我相信這是我們的目標嘛那之前也有特別提到就是說可能也因應這個美國關稅的這個議題那會不會因為這樣子然後有所這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10754.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10760.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
這個步驟或者是這個時程是不是會有所做一個調整那另外就是說之前我們是針對500家針對500家去做那我不知道說你們針對這部分你們會不會做一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10769.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10793.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
幫委員第一個是說因為全世界目前沒有一個國家因為關稅或是說美國川普總統有任何的改變所以目前我們堅定的照這個速度走但是其實因為我們也知道我們現在其實要收碳費的企業依照去年排碳量統計現在剩下252家大概400多個工廠而已有稍微變少一點點目前我們是針對例如說有些會受到關稅影響的產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10795.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10807.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那我們會給他特別的輔導甚至給他高碳洩漏係數的折扣所以這個目前呢但不過他每年都要提不是說現在就給他大傻逼這樣不是我們有一套的這個節奏所以我們會幫助產業度過這個難關是好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10810.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10824.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
部長 我想請教 就是說你之前也有特別提到 就是說高溫 台灣的高溫的這個議題那你本身也有提到就是說 環境部預計在6月要成立一個高溫對策聯盟那7月預計要推出高溫防護地圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10829.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10846.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
好那其實我看到這個的時候我想說這個好像跟那個氣象局好像比較有關合作一起合作就環境部跟我們氣象局這邊是一起合作的對還有很多的部會因為跟委員報告因為以前我們對於這種所謂的氣候變遷的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10848.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10873.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
紙上談兵比較多啦我們是希望倒過來拿這個高溫試看看說我們把一次的很熱很熱的那幾天當成像颱風來的樣子一樣然後我們是不是可以實際來演練那演練完之後我們寫成明年的規劃案然後來執行這些事情好那像這樣子的話你們這個高溫對策聯盟你是有哪幾個單位是一起合作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10874.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10902.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
跟委員報告我們目前會包括就是政府各相關部會那也會邀集民間企業那也會邀集民間團體希望是說大家一起採取行動是是所以所以如果說從六月份如果你們成立這個高溫對策聯盟或者是七月這個高溫防護地圖那你們會希望就是說相關單位譬如說勞動部啊或者是相關企業在看到這樣子一個高溫 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10903.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10929.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
的部分然後可以希望企業怎麼去做或者是對於在室外工作的這些勞工能夠做什麼樣的防護你們是希望能夠透過這樣的一個防護地圖然後能夠給予什麼樣的一個建議或者是希望就譬如說勞動部如果看到這樣子的一個高溫的狀況的話那是不是未來有可能去放這個高溫架或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10931.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10947.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
報告委員因為其實這個高溫以戶外的勞工為例他其實是遇到高溫應該有適當的一個休息時間那以我自己是氣象專業過去氣象專業的話我們認為台灣要放高溫假因為只有中午那幾個小時啦其實是有點困難啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10948.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10970.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
那其實我們會希望能夠保障國人的安全健康甚至說我們這次還有針對弱勢貧窮的族群特別是年長者因為他可能經濟狀況沒辦法那麼好去換那個節能的冷氣那他因此呢就不敢吹冷氣要省錢那反而造成他的很大的健康影響我們希望用大數據的方式把這些族群撈出來給他特別的服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10971.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10986.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以我們其實這次是導過來用行動來找出一些可行的做法然後明年提出一個實際上可行的方案所以你們這個是跨部會的可能就是環境部勞動部還有衛福部然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10988.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11000.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
地方政府也一起進來所以會有一些成效的話或者是跟民眾比較有切身關係或者是你剛剛講的針對長者的部分也許他可以換什麼樣的東西的話這個應該也是在明年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11004.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11024.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
才會有這樣實際的行動今年我們就是把實際上例如說像一個假設有幾天可能超過38度了那幾天我們就特別來做演練像颱風一樣我們缺什麼缺什麼缺什麼然後誰還做得不夠我們就提出一個檢討方案希望明年有這個經驗實際上來做不然的話我們過去可能都是紙上談兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11025.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11050.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
好那當然我們也第一次啦應該這個算是第一次政府這樣子投入那這個也是因應我們的氣候韌性所以我們希望說部長以你的專業然後提供給其他的部會或者是地方政府也許可以提供給勞動其實我第一次看到這個我第一個想到可能就是在高溫底下工作的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11051.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11072.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
勞工啦所以這個也許對這些勞工是會有一個很大的一個幫助因為其實抗高溫已經變成是一個產業我們就發現台灣很多民間的廠商他們都做出來例如說夏天有一個冷氣衣穿在身上就不會那麼的熱或是說頭盔它有一些可以如果你快要中暑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11073.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11084.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
他就會給你警告那樣的一個方式我們希望把這個引進來給那個業界他們可以自己多購買這樣的東西這個也是一個高溫的產業希望他們可以自己起來好 謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來請林淑美來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11101.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11105.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好 謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11131.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11145.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寫很寬鬆就是你只要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11146.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11163.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11163.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11191.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11193.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11205.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11211.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11234.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11235.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11235.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11252.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11275.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11276.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11299.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面訂定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11304.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11305.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11319.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11347.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11349.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11367.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11368.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11371.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11388.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11397.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11416.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11423.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
茶飲 飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是 這個署長是是 那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11441.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11446.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法那個類型你草案公告了嗎還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來這個跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你不好啦 抱歉我現在說你們這個喔你們自己就不知道也不公告也不訂案所以你們在這裡跟我報告不好我現在要跟你說你們的荒謬就是執行院的荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11469.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11473.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11493.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11495.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11516.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11524.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
委員 這個因為我們最近很努力在弄那個資源循環推動法啦這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊細部啦 細部的你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11541.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11546.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11570.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11573.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11586.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11589.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
包材的相關規則對包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11603.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11631.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11633.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11658.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11659.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11676.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦 台灣現在還在農耕農耕人二十幾年 還有那個食品包裝的還有藥材包裝的 還有生性的藥物的包裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11689.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11704.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
還有那個管子醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11705.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11733.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
各位報告 那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討 那就不要說了 要笑死人了啦我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品 還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案喔 要想好誰啦我現在要說的 聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC對健康案的環境危害最大保證 你要怎麼管 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11735.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11757.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都在等頭 別輕易的等頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11765.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11767.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11785.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11797.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11815.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11839.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
部長你不知道喔網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11843.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11849.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11864.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11878.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11880.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11886.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11909.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11920.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思就是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11932.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11952.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11956.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11967.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11973.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11999.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12003.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12004.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我先看數字好了 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12006.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12012.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
台北市這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一咖希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百咖出去了 只有25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均23.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12034.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12036.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12051.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12070.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12071.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12076.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12096.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12104.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你有循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12112.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12134.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12137.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12157.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣有辦法推動這個示範計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12163.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12176.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12180.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12195.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚議員 你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12201.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12219.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
你的營運的模式還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖都沒有啊所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12220.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12231.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
報告委員 我上任之後過去一年有好幾次跟電商平台在討論這個事你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會它有一個無電面工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12236.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12246.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站就對了但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12255.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12267.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個希望拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我也就去網購屈臣氏你聽到嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我也就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12283.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12310.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這間是你自己沒有管道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12311.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12331.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
OK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別討論對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓林委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請圖群集委員圖群集委員圖群集委員不在來請陳委員來做詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12338.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12339.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我們12點5分會處理這個解凍案,謝謝謝謝主席,麻煩請部長來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12351.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12369.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
陳委員好我想首先要謝謝部長好幾件事就是那個謝謝部長幫助我們台東那特別這個掩埋場的問題其實我們有很漂亮的風景但是這個整個海岸線很漂亮但是呢也謝謝部長表達立場對於這個破壞環境的這個開發案 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12377.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12398.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
不予以支持那再來就是我們的這個都立掩埋場的部分我想我們那天大家去曬太陽然後聞那個惡臭其實即便我們離開了那個惡臭都還一直餘味繚繞久久無法散去我想這個部分也謝謝環境部支持好改善這個掩埋場的問題那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12400.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12418.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
一個很重要就是說這個要大大的肯定部長因為我們都知道資源回收業是我們的環保尖兵但是就是說我們沒有回收業是不行的可是大家又對於這個行業其實又很嫌棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12419.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12448.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那么他们导致说这些回收业者常被赶到山边海边那最后呢就卡在这个环保用地换句话说就是没有工厂登记证那在去年四月的时候蓝营署长他有带着两个组长还有两个科长还有一位非常优秀的你们的这个事权记证一起把那个整个计划做出来那当然我们办公室也花很多的力气跟时间参与了这个沟通 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12450.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12469.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
計劃的撰寫最後通過這個勞動部的同意讓這批沒有這個場登的這些資收業者也能夠申請到聘僱外籍勞工作為行政的行政院的5加2的創新產業那這個循環經濟的部分也增添了這個生力軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12470.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12487.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以我要在這邊特別謝謝部長這件事情那也希望也謝謝賴署長那也希望部長就是說能夠繼續能夠支持照顧回收業者從還有這個從業人員的這個部分那外籍勞工重視他們的這個職安還有這個勞動條件等等也謝謝就是在這邊特別再一次謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12500.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12526.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
好那另外就是我們最近是為了這個台灣空氣品質的亞洲排名部長以這個2024年台灣的這個PM2.5的平均濃度已經下降到12.8微克立方公尺相較於2013年的24微克有明顯改善那也並且呼籲大家說少用少說這個用費發電這樣的詞彙引起了一些關注跟討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12528.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12549.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
事实上数据会说话我们的空气品质指标PM2.5也的确是有下降这也是不真的事实只是说我们的这个指标难道是只有PM2.5吗其他空气中的臭氧悬浮微粒还有一氧化碳二氧化硫以及二氧化碳等等这些浓度的数值也都 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12556.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12570.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
可以根據對人體的這個健康還有影響程度分別換算出不同的污染物的這個空氣品質指標那我想要請教部長就是說其他的這個污染指標是否也有一起下降呢報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12570.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12596.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
其實第一個是我們用PM2.5因為PM2.5它有直接的排放因為它是小於2.5微克的micron的小微粒那它對身體直接吸到肺泡衝擊是非常的大所以一般PM2.5它包含直接的排放還有衍生性的衍生性包含流氧化物、氮氧化物等等這種懸浮微粒它都算在這個裡面所以我們一般對認知空氣污染就是以PM2.5為做一個代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12598.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12622.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
至於說SAX、NAX有沒有單獨的危害因為每一個特性是不一樣的所以我們現在以空氣污染學對我們健康的影響都是以PM2.5為主例如說發電業流氧化物大概在四成但是它的氮氧化物只有16%但是汽機車就佔了50幾%所以基本上每個污染物會不一樣但是我們總稱都是用PM2.5來做代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12624.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12649.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這樣大概有一些概念那目前就是說部長你希望掛牌成立的這個空氣品質預測中心的進度不曉得到哪邊那我們上半年度有沒有機會掛牌因為我們這個是從這個空品的政策白皮書來的啦那這個已經移到我們的這個預報的同仁已經移到這個大氣師一起協同去運作了 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12649.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12678.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那我們希望他們運作的順利之後來再來正式再來掛牌所以你大概預估什麼時候他們現在已經就在大氣司了原來建支司遇到大氣司去做預報了所以目前呢這個他們掛牌掛牌現在在等我們在確定一個時間但是他們的彼此的這個因為他等於是從另外一個司移到另外一個司那我們現在就希望他們有一些特別的使命那我們目前來說的話大概還要等一段段時間運作妥當啊特別有一些新的產品出來之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12678.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12706.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
大概没机会会会会我们今年一定会做一定会做好谢谢那我觉得就是说之所以会引起关注主要是我们火力发电最近有比较多的使用那在这个煤燃烧所产生的这些污染物包括这个悬浮微粒跟二氧化硫对空气品质造成比较明显的影响那炭煤炭的品质其实影响很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12706.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12727.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那火力發電設備的燃燒效率也非常重要在這個部分環境部跟台電你們有沒有橫向的聯繫然後主動掌握就是說能不能做得更好讓空氣污染這件事情能夠事先有評估跟掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12729.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12753.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
因為每一個大的煙囪它都有裝空氣品質的監測同時回傳到地方的環保局還有我們中央其實都可以看得到所以基本上它的源頭減量排多少我們都很清楚基本上任何一個燒東西它其實都有一個污染的控制的系統所以這次例如說中部你可以看得出來中部它的火力電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12754.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12767.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
因為前幾天增加了一點點然後但是呢其實它的你看這個市區的PM2.5並沒有顯著的變化這可以看得出來其實不是大家想那麼直接燒了多少然後空污就會影響到多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12768.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12788.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
因為這些大宗固定污染源的目的事業主管機關主要是經濟部那在這個能源的產生的過程那是不是就是說如果跟環境部有更多的橫向聯繫那可以便於就是說你們事先掌握跟評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12789.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12802.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那不然就是說你們環境部因為我待會下面會講一些例子你就了解我為什麼在那邊很關心這個主動跟被動因應這個污染的排放的這個問題好那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12805.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12830.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
我們與其這樣不如就是說從源頭去處理那因為我分享一個實例這個鍋爐設備的排放標準過去因為燒重油而有比較嚴重的這個污染排放那後來我們辦公室跟這個中油公司有反映了這個問題中油公司他們也就是說被動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12831.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12843.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
馬上去處理這件事情那改進了這個拖留技術也提升了這個就是說品質油品的這個品質的這個販售那後來這個鍋爐燃燒出來的這個排放標準呢也符合規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12849.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12876.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
讓很多原先需要改成燃燒天然氣的廠商他們可以不用大費周章去更改設備然後就可以符合法令的規定所以我希望說未來在火力發電的部分環境部也可以跟台電中油還有經濟部能有更好更多的合作主動去協助改善燃燒 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12879.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12900.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
就是主動改善這個燃燒效率那我不曉得部長就是說這個部分未來能不能把它做得更好包委員這個就是我們定的啦我們定的那未來我覺得因為我們針對任何的一個鍋爐都有它固定污染源的一個明確的排放標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12901.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12909.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這個部分我們會 因為要訂的時候我們都要訂公廳跟他們業者去做協商這個部分我們未來會朝向更加嚴的方式來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12911.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12933.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好 那這個就是都希望大家可以多主動啦那最後想要請教就是說台灣綠色成長基金喔我們的減碳主要是以二氧化碳為主可是二氧化碳為什麼不是我們空氣的這個污染指標但是它卻又是室內空氣品質的指標呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12935.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12960.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
因為二氧化碳主要是它是一個溫室氣體啦因為今年7月你們要把它證明嘛那但是說如果空氣品質的這個你把這個指標拿掉了二氧化碳那我們怎麼去看這個減碳的績效因為你室內這樣知道空氣品質指標就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12962.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12982.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
因為這個室內的空品例如說現在看可以到700多像剛剛就到1000多那其實這個是對我們人體有直接的影響但是戶外呢其實二氧化碳呢它是屬於一個比較穩定的均值緩慢的在上升或是說它有日夜的變化或是四季的變化跟室內的直接對人體的影響比較不一樣對啊但是因為你未來要減碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12984.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13001.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那你怎麼去看那個績效 因為這裡沒有對跟不對的問題 就是說你是因為把它改名了 把它證明了 或者你又用其他的方式去看未來減碳的績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13003.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13017.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
因為我們現在看二氧化碳的濃度通常會去找一個背景站因為我們二氧化碳會受到人為的干擾非常的大所以以我們來台灣來說的話我們會在鹿林山環境部的監測站會去量現在大概到420ppm了 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13019.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13041.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以那個就是一個代表一個環境的變化那它對於溫室氣體來說的話倒不是直接那我們一般來說的話因為燃燒就會排碳那這個燃燒的量的碳多少有我們一定的計算方式所以跟那個濃度不大有關係後續我們就再研究啦那這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13044.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13063.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
所以未來這個碳捕捉的技術他就是說只是以這個捕捉二氧化碳為主那如果也能夠有效抑制其他的污染物的話呢那這樣的技術是不是也可以獲得基金更多的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13064.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13082.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
理論上因為只要排碳它其他的污染物也都混在一起所以只要減碳有效益我們是以減碳為效益為最主要的目標那我們是希望就是說在未來像這個因為這個捕捉它應該不是僅限於煙囪 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13084.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13112.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
僅限於煙囪排出去嗎對 不限於但是我們要去評估就是說場內作業勞工他也有污染暴露的問題那這個部分希望你們好好瞭解那必要的時候要做工程改善而不是一刀切說那個就是就是勞動部要負責他們只會開單而已他們不會不知道怎麼去改善這些問題所以就是說這個請你們能夠也好好協助這個部分好 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13113.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13136.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
好謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回應喔謝謝因為等一下剛有宣告稍等十分鐘要處理那個解凍案喔抱歉喔來來請葉恩之委員來做詢問主席好麻煩請找那個環境部長來請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13142.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13164.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
業務員好部長好因為我跟你講現在大家都很關心人員的問題嘛那因為飛河之後到底空污會不會變比較嚴重大家都很關心那我其實是蠻期許環境博士站在市民的角度民眾的角度去真正是對環境做出一個比較正確的評估然後跟外界做解釋盡量不要去做台電的化妝師 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13167.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13185.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
第一個部長你好像上個禮拜有提到說我們現在PM2.5是12.8微克比很多國際在亞洲是僅次於日本我必須說委包委員其實還有一個國家新加坡但是新加坡因為他在熱帶每天下雨跟我們日韓或是我們東亞的國家比較不一樣部長你這個比較基礎是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13188.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13211.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我們是用PM2.5手動的觀測站 那個國際的標準那其他國家的數值你是怎麼取得的也是一樣 他們在哪裡取得的例如說日本的官方網站的報告日本官方網站他去年他平均一整年是低於12.8維克其他國家是高於12.8維克 你是這樣子算出來的嗎日本大概整個國家平均大概是8左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13212.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13239.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
8左右你是從他們的官方網站一個一個國家去抓的是不是一個一個國家去看那第一個我必須要講其實你用平均一整年平均12.8維克來做比較其實沒有什麼意義啦為什麼因為全台灣各個地方的P2.5的數值不一樣嘛有的高有的低嘛你看這是我今天我們今天早上抓的有的是綠色良好有的是黃色普通但有的像 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13240.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13257.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
金門那邊就比較差所以我們一個平均對於我們在台灣各地的人來說沒有什麼意義那我舉一個比較嚴重的例如說像仁武區你看仁武區他的PM2.5他就21.9就大於你所公布的平均12.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13259.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13286.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那我跟環境部還是要說實話啦報委員這個就像說我們例如說委員的平均失日多少那那個有一個數值嘛那有人高有人低嘛我們平均是可以來做比較的所以如果說台灣現在因為飛蛾家園火力全開那對於火力全開周邊環境它PM2.5的上升一定是有影響的嘛所以我們拿一個平均值你拿花蓮台東豪山豪水區跟會有污染源的地方做平均沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13287.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13301.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我只是覺得如果說環境部要公布類似報告的話應該針對火力發電廠附近去做公布我覺得比較有意義啦這第一個建議第二個就是有關於那個有氧化物有氧化物火力發電廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13303.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13329.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
大概是40%的排放這是你們自己的數據我是用環境部空氣污染排放量清澈你可以看到電力業對有氧化物就是貢獻的40.4所以並不是空氣污染好像都是其他的什麼移動污染源不是火力發電還是有影響所以這個希望環境部可以站在空氣污染這個角度去提出一些建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13330.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13359.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
否則台電會覺得說我火力發電火力全開好像也沒差啊現在就是這樣了對 報告委員我必須澄清說明一下我們這個空污我們通常以PM2.5來做一個代表PM2.5除了它直接排放之外還有它衍生性的例如說你說的流氧化物或氮氧化物都會慢慢的就是一種懸浮為例它會造成PM2.5的增加所以它都算成是PM2.5所以我們談空污對人體的影響就是以PM2.5為作為一個主軸不是說還要再做 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13360.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13378.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
但是光是PM2.5我只是覺得也是要仔細去評估啦不是說用一個平均數而且還有一個重點齁還有一個重點就是我們之後用電量會越來越多嘛不管是像AI的發展啊或如果台積電未來要一年擴展一個廠或者是大家現在鼓勵用電動車用電量一定會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13379.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13399.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那飛河之後如果你新的綠電沒辦法補的話我去了解像光電現在發展就停滯了啊地熱現在還要碳磚啊不見得碳磚到大量的啊氫能的話氫能其實它只是能夠取代碳排嘛它只是取代碳排所以如果用電量大增的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13399.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13428.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那沒有新的發電方式本來應該要退役的藍莓機組不退役停機停機之後又復機未來就真的會火力全開啊未來火力全開那當然PM2.5就會上升啊這個我不知道環境部你們有沒有針對這個給台電一些建議啊跟他講說站在環境的角度他自己要去思考他的能源配比啊而不是說好像順著他的話去講說哎呦他火力全開沒關係反正我們現在看平均PM2.5好像也還好 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13429.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13446.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我覺得不能這樣欸那天我報告是說整個我們的台灣的空污的確從十幾年前的平均二三十一直降到12.8那其實這個12.8是很努力但是我們現在的空氣裡面有很多的污染源移動的生活的等等都要減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13448.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13476.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
減少嘛對所以不能用這個東西來當作絕對不是只有一個說燃煤拉電因為我們現在討論的是能源這一塊嘛你不能說因為別的地方也都有也都有增加所以不能只怪台電不是而是說就發電的這一塊我們怎麼去盡量的持續減少譬如2.5我覺得重點應該在這邊所以環境部應該要去跟台電講不要讓他覺得說好像把一些停機的燃煤機組重新拿出來的燃煤沒關係反正有環境部護航說告訴大家環境部護航沒有護航喔沒有護航最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13477.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13503.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
希望環境部可以大聲的把真正的數據公開透明的告訴社會大眾我覺得這樣大家才會給台電壓力跟他講說你不要你發電方式有很多種你不要選擇最會污染環境的那一種大家一起為環境的努力啦所以希望環境部可以站在民眾這邊所以包委員你其實也可以看我們的APPAPP上面可以看到過去這幾天的PM2.5的數值多少其實或是SAX、NAX其實都沒有什麼太大的變化所以除了那個之外也要看實際上的空體量量到的數值 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13504.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13533.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
增加如果藍莓基礎火力全開那就不一定了那就不一定所以你要跟他你要跟他們建議啦好不好謝謝謝謝好謝謝楊委員欸葉委員謝謝因為我受到楊委員的干擾接下來請楊委員來做審打時間有限生命更是有限好謝謝主席主席請教彭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13534.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13550.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
部長時間有限姚委員好部長好部長在520前夕貴部有召開記者會就向國人報告環境部過去一年的成果那 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13552.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13568.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
記者會的部分我來問一下,現在由環境部主導的抗高溫對策聯盟即將要成立你們要負責統合各部會的相關事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13571.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13588.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
包括勞動部提出戶外工作的防護措施衛福部也提高提升弱勢族群的任性經濟部則針對產業衝擊等等都有提供一些相關的資料給你們我請問一下這個對抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13592.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13613.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
抗高溫對策聯盟實際上的運作模式以及政策目標到底是什麼因為我來自民間我看到我們政府面對那種極端天氣的調適我必須說很多的報告書但是真實的作為像國際的調適都要有一些資金有一些行動可是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13614.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13629.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
比較少那我們就這次用一個方式就是說我們實際上來操作假設高溫一個極端天氣像颱風一樣我們政府怎麼去面對我們從實際上的經驗找出來一個方式然後我們再把整個方式把它具體化 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13630.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13649.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這個其實也跨部會然後也結合了民間的產業還有各行各業一起來了解還有地方政府我們就希望說我們今年先來把一個高溫一個事件超過38度等等的當成一個颱風來應變之後我們再找出一些方案希望明年之後把它寫成一些規範然後就變成一個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13650.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13672.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
部長你的想法本席其實是非常贊同就是說包括公部門花了太多時間在做研究資料可是實際的動作作為太少這個我覺得要改變這種思維啦就是盡可能的不要花太多時間在資料的 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13674.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13699.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
當然這一部分也很重要,可是不能只做到這一部分就沒有其他的希望我們有關抗高溫對策聯盟可以實際運作的好也希望明年真的可以逐年的把它有一部分的措施出來我之前就有倡議過 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13702.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13730.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
有關社福身份家庭的節能家電的補助所以我也看到我們這個政策平台有關衛福部的部分就是提升弱勢族群的韌性我想要請教一下部長雖然這個是衛福部跟經濟部的主管業務那你負責平台我想要請問一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13733.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13744.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
假如衛福部針對或者是我這樣子問好了就是部長覺得衛福部是不是應該要針對有社福 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13745.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13770.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
身份的家庭提供更多節能家電的喚醒補助報告委員其實這有幾個部分第一個是我們發現委員你之前提醒我們的有一些比較弱勢的族群他不可能去買節能家電因為他要花一筆錢當然他就不想開冷氣或是他如果要開冷氣他其實就要花出更多的成本比我們來得多 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13771.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13798.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
所以基本上但是政府的預算又有限我不能夠例如說收入多少我就補助更多所以我們現在改變一個做法第一個是我們跟內政部合作去撈數據撈數據就是說到底幾個弱勢的或是獨居老人例如說我們現在針對獨居的老人為主先他來做來示範那如果找到這個老人之後那就衛福部幫我們去找到那個老人然後幫忙看能不能需要補助那這個補助就會從這個地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13799.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13817.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
因為地方政府有的補助的錢還蠻多的那有的是能源署那邊那他們呢就會對於例如說冷氣像有些地方政府可以補助一兩萬塊的可以換一台冷氣所以我們先由這種方式示範來處理但是這個最源頭還是要找到那個人啊所以要去算要找到人也要找到財源嘛對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13819.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13831.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
不過這個就是逐步來做因為弱勢家庭的家電太換了除了有關抗高溫以外其實它也有老舊電器的風險所以這個希望部長能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13839.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13850.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
落實這個平台跟跨部會我今天只是講到因為我之前就有講過社福家庭的家電補助所以就用這個跟部長做個探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13852.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13870.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
部長我在5月中旬環境部也發表了空氣品質白皮書當中有42項未來的行動方案要在未來10年裡面改善我國的空氣品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13874.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13898.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
白皮書裡面提到的議題之一就是重視兒少的呼吸權這個當然很重要精進校園周圍的空汙管理我想請問一下學童的呼吸率跟代謝機能跟成人都不同所以他們是更需要被保護的一群 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13900.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13916.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
那空品區呢就是一定的就是汽機車假如沒有經過一定的檢驗以後是不能進去的對不對在校園的500公尺以內怎麼管制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13921.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13933.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
這個齁 在那個 有些縣市 我不用講哪些縣市 罰蠻多的例如說AutoBike沒有去電檢 它就不能進去 會開罰的那他們是用人力還是用那個 車牌辨識車牌辨識 對對對是 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13939.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13961.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
因為每一部車子他有沒有做過訂件我知道那他是怎麼撈出來的就從放在學校的附近然後經過在某些時間經過的話那他就會抓到了然後那個地方環保局就會開罰所以他是活動式的類似固定式的應該固定式的固定喔固定式一台幾十萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13962.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13973.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
一台幾十萬塊,所以不是像交通部那種科技執法的機器這也算是一種科技執法對,可是不是像檢證署,因為現在就是各都會 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13981.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13996.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
車流比較多的路口都會有科技執法那個很貴我還以為你們是用我們沒有用到那麼貴的大概幾十萬因為我也擔心因為這個概念是很好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13997.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14007.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
可是怎麼執行總是要有辦法執行目前有些縣市有這樣做發滿多的我覺得部長應該鼓勵這些縣市假如說執行花費的機器的設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14022.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14033.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
經費不是很高 應該要大量使用這個才能夠落實我們空瓶區的構想好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14050.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14077.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
好本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉祥 朴全吉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在作為下決議第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員質詢未及答物或請補充資料則請相關機關於兩週內以書面答物委員另要求期限則從期所定那我們接下來要處理討論事項G8案請在宣讀的時候環境部要不要直接先去溝通還是怎麼樣你們就斟酌嘿好請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14080.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14091.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
討論事項處理環境部韓威114年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結專案報告案8案一第18款第一項新增決議329業務費凍結30%二第18款第二項新增決議356業務費凍結30%三第18款第三項新增決議362業務費凍結30% |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14104.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14108.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
4.第18款第4項新增決議375化學物質管理署向下業務費凍結30%5.第18款第5項新增決議382業務費凍結30%6.第18款第6項新增決議392國家環境研究院向下業務費凍結30%7.第18款第1項決議15空氣品質保護及噪音管制預算凍結600萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14130.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14158.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
八第十八款第三項決議二十三資源循環及廢棄物管理向下循環處理凍結二百萬元宣讀完畢好那我們現在就進行討論事項八案之主案處理第一案就同意動之有無異議沒有好那無異議就同意動之第二案有無異議沒有那就一樣同意動之第三案有無異議沒有就同意動之 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14160.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14179.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
第四案有依沒有那就同意動之第五案有依那就同意動之第六案有依那就同意動之第七案有依那就同意動之接下來第八案有依沒有好那我們就一樣同意動之好 註以下決議均同意動之並提報院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14190.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14211.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
現在處理剛才保留的報告事項,剛剛有再加入林委員的第19案,你們有先去溝通嗎?還是就直接要處理了?如果剛剛照林委的講法,那個草案沒有提出來是沒辦法處理的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14215.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14241.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
沒有來就沒有處理,但是他們要自己去面對我們那個就預告完再解凍好不好對,你看有沒有現在是負貸局議案,謝謝報告主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14243.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14261.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
不是,剛剛是林淑芬的我是提醒,剛剛他有提到那一案,你們如果有時間溝通,我就等一下就沒有再處理這個,在報告事項裡面去處理了我們那案就預告後再解凍預告後再解凍所以?那你們什麼時候會預告? |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14273.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14297.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
兩個月的時間喔不是現在就是要確定說假如說我們今天是通過預告後解凍那你們是預告完了以後就解凍了所以你們要兩個月以後解凍 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14298.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14321.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們要辦理預告完以後才可以解凍那我們需要兩個月的時間來研發所以預告完以後就不用再到委員會了對不對對剛剛委員很像就是這個意思要還是要所以所以就是那就是等於這個解凍案現在是保留的喔你們覺得沒有關係就就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14323.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14350.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
第19案第19案保留沒有關係沒有關係沒有關係大家沒有意見就那可以預告後如果我們預告後就自動解對我現在的意思就是這樣子就是說是預告後自動解凍這樣子這樣子不過這個要問要問主席跟議事人員假如今天我們做出來的結論是預告後解凍那還需不需要再送過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14353.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14378.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
需要嗎對這個要先確定好啊我們去找林委員再說明一下好不好再給我們一點時間我現在要進行了啊所以我才一直提醒人要不要先溝通的原因就這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14380.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14386.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我就講你們就好像也不太搭理我主席不能先處理第一案,那他們去找領委員,領導委員,這樣他們還要溝通程序我再跟各位報告一下,基本上是這樣,原本院會交下來就是報告事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14403.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14427.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那個別委員有意見我們就有幾案有提出來就像剛剛曾教授委員那我們就在討論事項完之後來處理這個報告事項那如果等下有意見那可能我們就保留擇期再審會變成這樣嘛這其一嘛那其二因為原本的這個審查的所約定的條件是說提出說明就是說你那個法案有提出來之後提出書面報告就可以解凍了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14429.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14450.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
剛剛因為林委員有吹詢你們,你們是在時間內是沒有提出來嘛所以基本上他就是不讓你解凍嘛所以我才請你們去溝通,不然就會這個案會保留,會再遮起再處理啦就這樣嘛,這樣大家可以聽到所以我不是要提出說你們要進入討論事項,我就講說你要不要先去溝通一下,是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14453.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14471.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
包委我們現在正在去溝通當中那我們就先處理這個早上陳委員提出來的幾案來好謝謝我盡快謝謝主席我要先讀一下你再講不好意思不好意思來現在來處理剛才保留的報告事項那第一案委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14474.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14479.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
如果有請發言我當時把環境影響評估整合與管理的業務費500萬做了這個凍結因為環境部現在定有所謂的環境影響評估審查的旁聽要點那這個旁聽要點是從2020年2月開始那所有的這個環評這個審查都線上直播如果要表達意見可以採書面等等這個做法我要表達抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14499.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14516.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
因為那個時代是有特別的那個是疫情的時候很多的作業很多部門的作業都有一些權宜的做法是因應疫情而存在那現在衛福部已經宣布疫情結束那你如果把這個要點放在繼續限縮開始拿來公開限縮環評會的公民參與的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14522.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14529.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
已經就變成已經失了這個公民參與的這個重心跟精神比較離譜的是部長你們還把這個不合時空便宜要點拿來做解凍報告的內容啦其實你把自己做小你還把當時的狀況拿來做這次解凍的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14539.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14549.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以等於是我們感覺還是你還是在幫這個開發這個單位做剛剛葉委員我就用他的名詞吧因為你不喜歡我講那個你們這個叫化妝室那如果你不更正這個做法把公民關在會議室外面關在那個小房間這種然後看直播而且直播還是有lag的就有差距的時間那我覺得叫我解凍真的很困難所以我今天是有提一個附帶決議就是說希望你們修正之前的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14566.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14595.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那剛剛這個附帶決議等一下我跟主席報告因為剛剛經過溝通前三點我們做了文字修改那第四點你們也同意在這個新的辦法出來之前我們有一些這個可以做一些修正的地方所以那個附帶決議等一下我們就不用花費時間在處理那解凍案這個部分我是希望說在這個當中你們要提出新辦法當中這個是不是先按照這個就你們要回到這個公民參與的這個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14596.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14600.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
所以你知道我的重點在什麼地方解凍報告你用那個舊的2020年2月的因為疫情而特有的方式你把它當解凍案的報告老實說作為一個盡責的委員如果我說沒事的話是我不盡責任因為我們現在也在做總體檢當中那個要到年底才會完成現在都是在試行所以這個委員我們會來改 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14622.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14643.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那這個當中這個當中是不是就是讓他先回到2020年2月之前的做法不要再拿疫情方面特殊的做法當作常態這個我們來檢討好不好委員我們會來檢討這個方式這個很重要如果部長您同意的話我今天我就公開講我後面的就是11個那個解凍案我可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14643.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14659.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
都接受就是直接解凍因為這個是重點因為公民參與是重點他們今天也在外面我是不知情的我之前不知情他們今天也在外面做了抗議因為講來是有道理的而且你這兩次的環比有很多的爭議你就是避開了公民讓他們發言的機會參與的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14663.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14676.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
其實他們都有發言但是因為那時候委員試行說能不能用這樣方式比較好那個發言就是他在外面然後時間到叫他進來然後又叫他出去然後他也沒辦法參與這個不是真正的公民參與根據你們要點公民參與這個我剛剛早上有跟你 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14680.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14702.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
參與才不是這種參與方法這個我們會通盤檢討啦 我跟你保證就是說因為那個我們現在在環評總體檢當中這個方式裡面的進行的細節也是討論的細節就是說現在到你們把新的辦法訂出來之前你要不要先回到2020年2月之前的方式那如果你說你的硬體設備空間放十幾個那個都可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14703.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14726.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
但是不是用現在的方式把他們關在一個小房間時間到你才准過來然後他看的直播不是真的直播沒有現在已經完全是即時的我們一個一個在改但是他沒有機會去回應對於開發單位的回應做一些討論等等有些參與因為他們不是列席也不叫旁聽你這個旁聽要點就已經把他的位階都降低了那個是環民委員審查一般民眾不是來審查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14727.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14735.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
當地居民很多當地居民你要篩選哪一些人可以因為空間的關係都可以討論所以你可不可以承諾說如果這樣的話那我其他11樣我就解凍啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14739.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14763.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
報告委員我有兩點說明第一點那個委員當初第一案的凍結案並不是民眾旁聽的部分那但是剛剛我們有跟委員溝通就是說民眾旁聽這個我們會檢討那在檢討之前我有剛剛有跟委員講因為市長你可不可以不要再講旁聽因為民眾是參與公民參與他不是旁聽在園園地上在海外就可以旁聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14764.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14783.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我們因為當初現在試行這個方式是有試接之後有跟環評委員討論確定的那我們要修改也必須要有提出方案然後跟環評委員討論報告之後我們就可以修正環境審查這個整個作業就居民怎麼當當局居民熟悉這個地方怎麼參與不是環評委員會決定的是為環境部決定的這不是他們決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14788.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14801.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
是我們就是因為開會當初造成混亂所以委員建議說在會場的人可以比較少一點所以那時候我們是想說那我們就試行看看因為早上他跟我說空間的問題那這個空間我們可以體會那我們現在有 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14803.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14810.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
有18個座位嘛那我們會協調那當然不可能說如果來好 協調然後讓他們從頭就是他們是參與者他不是旁聽就是說全程參與但是他發言的時候他才發言但是他可以救他開發單位講了一點他們當地住在很多居民他有疑問他可以問環評委也可以參考啊這個是等於當事人在那邊這個現在就是這個樣子啊只是說有沒有進去而已因為那個我們現在只有18個位置你在外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14834.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14855.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
那你再讓他移到一個關到一個小房間然後一進一出這樣這個發言方式不是沒有辦法互動啦因為我們遇到兩個就是說正反兩邊齁都放在同一個地方會完結啦如果維繫規則因為那天改變遊戲規則而且事先有一些不公平的資料跑錯我都有寄給你嘛就說有一些內部人 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14856.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14861.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
因為那邊有問題所以民眾沒有辦法接受你們應該覺得有重大的疑慮出現作假或作弊資料出現的時候應該是要有一些權益的做法你們那邊沒有嘛就直接過而且還17比0我才形容說這個是習近平跟金正恩的會議啊17比0啊所以那天才會造成那麼大的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14880.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14897.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
就一定有原因的就不能單方面說那天混亂等等不要把那個異常的狀況當作常態了解 所以委員我們剛剛有協商就是我們會朝這個方向去努力去修正而且給我們一些時間我們盡快來辦法好 包委員這個我就朝你的方向來努力好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14898.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14903.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那部長就很清楚就是說你們在擬定這個會議的時候可不可以要求公民團體的代表你可以選擇誰由你們來挑沒關係公民團體也在裡面現在所有會議包括健保、藥物會議都有stakeholder就是都有病人參與都有當事人參與好嗎你們這個成員也要稍微比較公正一點因為我們都是網路上公開讓誰都可以去登記的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14921.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14944.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
所以我們並沒有說有一個Stay Holder他都是自己上看到那個東西去登記所以我要確定那個成員有這樣的比率那如果說有一堆人先進去就你要確定每一個角色都在就是每一個角色因為我真的有再去跟他們討論重新檢討這個過程因為我們現在都是自己上網去登錄就有點是搶票的感覺有時候就爆量所以我們現在是全面每一個環節希望來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14946.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14975.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
就是說每一個角色對 你在這個會議當中每一個多元角色因為每個有他的角色有學者嘛 有專家但是也有當事人嘛就住在那裡就是每個角色都有人出席這樣可以嗎 這個是合理的嗎我就朝這個委員的您給我們的這個提點的方式來這個在憲法很多都是這樣啊每一個不同的病人代表什麼每個醫院各級都在裡面這樣可以嗎抱歉啊 蔡委員那個補貼人給你回三百他會盡量朝你的想法去處理你也不確定他不確定各位委員放心因為這個齁 這個需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14976.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15004.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
多方的溝通協商啦啊這個其實是我如果定我說好主席謝謝你因為我決定如果他這個答應了這個綜合不諜我其他其實一個案我都接受整個直接解凍就不討論了好啦委員我就直接說我就朝著你的方向你提點的方向來前進好部長那一點點時間因為這個要溝通好不好給我們一點點時間我會檢討相關你就往這個方向謝謝你啦好謝謝委員謝謝主席好謝謝那我早上提的那個那些案子都 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15005.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15017.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
就OK了好 早上我提了 今天這個重點在這裡沒有了就沒有了他們剛剛兩個就在互代決議了互代決議也沒有了嗎就沒有了 還在問 誰在問的 哪一個問的互代決議已經好了幹什麼就沒有互代決議了 他們兩招已經講好了溝通好了所以我們早上 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15042.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15062.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
跟趙偉跟各委員報告剛才已經跟林淑芬委員報告那也就是19案的部分就是我們預告後就解凍然後不用再送委員會決議是有過但是就是留著他不是不見喔那個文字我們都兩邊都溝通好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15065.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15080.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那就麻煩你,那個市長你宣讀一下接受互代區,那就必須要宣讀啊因為你們送出來的互代區域,剛剛曾委員講說有4點我們這邊的資料不是有4點啊那你念一下,謝謝你那你們自己宣讀吧,好不好我是說剛才補充到從委員已經公布了 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15095.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15111.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那現在先宣讀嗎來請針對地案的負責區請宣讀鑑於環境部為環境環評中央主管機關環境部及地方環保局上傳環評書件資料在環境部網站供社會大眾下載並閱讀並接受報名參加會議但環評審查方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15118.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15145.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
應落實公民參與原提案要求環境部應檢討目前公民參與的環評方式並重視下列公民參與方式一不管公民團體代表或居民的發言開發單位應與會議回覆提問與會議紀錄及環評書件也要書面回覆二受開發案影響之當地居民與環保團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15148.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15172.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
開發單位應重視其發言並予以回應以強化公民參與權益三 換言之公民團體代表或居民參加環評會議環境部或地方環保局都不經協商將之安排到正式會議室之外除非官方宣稱的疫情期間之防範等特殊情形以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15172.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15196.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
第四點有關部長於答詢時表示會檢討公民參與相關辦法應與公民團體共同討論並避免發生如光明殿場案等排除公民團體進入會議參與之狀況宣讀完畢好各位同仁包括事項第一案行政機關已經有待宣讀這個互代決議各位有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15198.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15216.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
沒有 那我們第一案就通過了然後這個負債決議也一併來通過然後 早上有針對其他的11案應該 各位委員是不是均與同意嘛均與同意 有異議沒有 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15222.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15246.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
好 那第十九案 第十九案就照林淑文委員的這樣的要求之後來同意通知就這樣嗎 好 OK可以齁 可以齁 好 OK 好好 現在做一下決定均同意通知並提報院會那本次會議到此結束現在散會 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15250.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15250.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
對齁,對齁,你比較對齁 |