| IVOD_ID |
167037 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167037 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
26 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-12T10:28:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-12T10:44:51+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ab52049cf0a1ce0df25279a420abeb1b4bfe832d32782da89ddda9214312ca73d6cc5b51f0f3cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:28:55 - 10:44:51 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-12T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍如何強化戰場持續戰力，對於戰時高消耗情境下，彈藥籌獲之應變作為與規劃」，並備質詢。） |
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主席看起來我們今天時間很充足可以來慢慢問先請顧部長那個陳建億參謀長也請一同啦準備局我覺得剛剛有些問題一直你們被打斷沒辦法完整回答我想釐清一下我想國人也關心大家都要清晰的事情第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
38.01 |
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鋼心彈到底有沒有在訓練的時候用有沒有在用 簡單回答包括有 而且數量大於普通彈你把精準數字念一下剛才我聽部長講嘛 4000多萬發嘛我們在講是年度吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
39.815 |
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44.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
來 部長請說每年的訊號是5367餘萬發普通彈是860萬4763萬4763發 佔17%鋼心彈是4506萬7567發在83% 這應該是在講這個是具體數據 近三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
64.386 |
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91.383 |
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我覺得我們現在討論的問題是基本的科學問題什麼叫科學問題有就是有 沒有就是沒有是就是 不是就不是鋼心彈在我們現在每年年度的訓練裡面占比83%是4000多萬發一年代表我們訓練的實彈射擊的用量相當高而第二個我要請教的是那鋼心彈這樣用槍管會不會損壞不過我要先講一個基本概念所有的子彈經過槍管都會有耗損 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
93.92 |
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| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所有的子彈經過都有耗損我們該真正要問的問題是不同的子彈經過的這個barrel這個槍管的耗損有沒有比人家高所以鋼心彈的使用有沒有增加耗損率 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
109.772 |
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128.965 |
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應該就兩個面向來說第一個它的結構性它雖然是鋼芯彈但是它它整個的鋼芯是外面是包覆包覆銅皮的是跟一般彈一樣的那基本上也跟剛剛委員所說的一樣每一個每一把槍它的不管是炮也好槍也好它都有槍管壽命但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.066 |
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151.567 |
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鋼心彈它基本上不同於普通彈的另外一個優點就是它對於射程較遠的精度會比較高那基本上這也是我們希望能夠達到的一個訓練目標因為我們現在的訓練實彈化也開始要裝瞄準鏡了所以要打比較遠它距離遠的精度比較高但因為它外面包了一層銅皮所以磨損是差不多的不過我好奇就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.988 |
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172.185 |
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這一個訓練用這麼大量鋼芯彈我們剛才講大家如果基本的軍武常識就知道所有的戰車炮所有的榴彈炮所有的槍管都會告訴你最大使用限度是幾發以後就要換一支新的所以其實都有耗損而耗損跟每個彈種之間的耗損的比較才是我們成本的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.705 |
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187.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以鮑委員我補充一點所以就是說每一門炮或每一把槍它所設計的這個槍管壽命 炮管壽命基本上我們到底有沒有耗損我們應該再從我們實際上更換的多少槍 炮管來回推其實跟槍管跟炮管的製造的品質也有相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
214.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
為什麼人家的榴彈砲37倍進來可以跑那麼遠 我們的打不遠其實有時候不是彈的問題 有時候是砲管的問題砲管的品質 像最近那個中國的戰車砲在泰國的邊境 塘炸那就是品質問題 不能怪炸彈啦好 所以 鋼型彈有大量的用那我現在要問啊 那我們自己會做為什麼要外購 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
216.735 |
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244.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們剛剛一直聽到核心命題嘛自己會做為什麼要外購剛剛也有報告過了這個在來來 彈藥說明跟委員做一個說明就是這幾年因為恢復EUE增招然後那個較招包含我們去年也核定了吸行量的一個數量的提升所以導致我整個戰備存量跟教育訓練用彈的這個數量都增加增加的比例多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
245.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
增加將近快這個我聽起來是快一倍多吧我剛才光你們聽就是從2000多萬發現在變5000多萬發嘛大概成長了2點多倍嘛那個是訓練的部分戰備的部分也提升那我想這個部分可能不宜戰備我尊重有些軍事機密我們不提我想戴耀處這邊應該要說明的就是說過去以來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
281.734 |
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一個戰備存量之所以夠那現在不夠那大概過去以來應該是都沒有在採購的部分我們當初在106年軍備局要205場要遷場之前有問過我們那時候評估一年的社訓量大概2000多萬而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
288.871 |
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299.416 |
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那這前四年就突然間整個就暴升到大概五六千那這個等於說這四年打下來已經幾乎是我八年的一個訊號量那我們的產線開始量產了沒產線現在我們自己國內的鋼芯彈的產線開始生產了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
306.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
321.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
現在就是剛剛提到了115年的3月我們的這個既有的應該是分現有的跟新的我都會同時跟委員報告我舊縣也一樣請中科院都是包含在合約裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
323.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
338.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
開始量產了沒還是逐步開始現在逐步用小批量在測試對 全線3月份全線量產所謂的1億發的產能其實還沒到那個數字嘛對 3月份3月份才會達到嘛好 剛才這邊整理起來就是因為我們的EWE從4個月恢復到一年期 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
339.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
357.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們的訓騎從五週變成八週所以訓練加上實彈化以前像我們EWE的時候大概打六發也幾發現在你們打了七八百發又打很多輪啦因為我兒子剛退伍他們打了很多輪也就是說訓練用的彈量非常大那大的具體數據剛剛也講了五千多萬發 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
359.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
387.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那鋼琴彈有沒有在用 有啊用了83% 4000多萬發啊然後當你訓練的用吃到戰備美軍援外吃到戰備一定馬上去採購補足戰備所以美國才會跟日本買愛國者飛彈嘛去補他的戰備嘛否則美國自己會做愛國者飛彈幹嘛跟日本買就是他援助烏克蘭他的戰備量吃到了以色列援助外的部分吃到了所以他增加所以這一題其實是一個科學問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
389.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
需求量跟使用量跟戰備量三個數據ABC去加總就知道了倒是有數價格的比較我覺得有三個不同這個我就不問你們了2005年當時是美軍代工合約六塊錢那個嘛2005年那我要請教各位都將領都是軍事專家一顆子彈裡面的火藥用在哪裡他是不是只有敵火跟發射藥還有沒有第三種火藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
416.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
425.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是敵火跟發射藥而已就發射藥所以我如果說沒有美軍提供的是敵火跟發射藥我們國內製造我們還要出火藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
429.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
456.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以我不好意思講啦其實火藥發射藥那個發射藥跟抵火就是火藥的家種所以2005年20多年前當時的代工合約就是代工材料是他們提供的製成他來協助的那我們那個代工費的價格跟我去買那個最終成品的價格的比較基本上這是謬誤的比較第二個2005年到2025年物料成本成長了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
457.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
483.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
用這樣相差20年份比較這也是一個謬誤第三個都叫子彈不代表價格都一樣就像都叫汽車品牌不同型號不同價格也不同所以這三個比較基礎的不同去說我們不應該採購怎麼樣其實我們不管是戰備需求或者訓練需求這些採購都可以去根據科學問題去驗證合不合理所以這題我們把它打住我現在要問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
498.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
美國曾經用PDA總統撥款特權有無償提供了我們一些裝備當然這有些涉及機密我就不細問那個部長這兩天我看媒體有揭露我們的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
500.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
522.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
護衛營就是飛彈車的護衛營單位或者海軍陸戰隊有開始使用美國援助的M4A1的步槍這個我看媒體有報了這個確實有在使用了好像一些陸軍海軍陸戰隊有在用這一個M4A1的步槍這是美軍現役的步槍那我第一個請教的我不會問你數量因為這數量是機敏 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
524.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
548.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
就我了解美國的M4A1它的瞄準鏡是標配為什麼我看你們出示的相片裡面我們的國軍弟兄使用的M4A1沒有瞄準鏡是相片錯了還是你們沒有提供包委員它那個是執行的時候沒有把它放上去事實上軍援的那個部分它還是援助了一部分的那個快瞄鏡 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
548.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
565.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有瞄準鏡 有一比一嗎 有有一批那就不是部分啦 就一比一所以美國美國提供給我們的M4A1步槍是有瞄準鏡 對那你說他們在執行任務拍那張相片的時候是沒有裝上去 沒有裝上去那什麼時候會裝 而且報委員因為當初他 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
568.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
587.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
配給我們就是援助的那個瞄準鏡的部分並不是1比1的援助不是1比1不是1比1所以我們就針對後備戰力提升的這個部分以及這些因為我記得我質詢過顧部長在這邊承諾包含我們T112我們都希望因為現在我們要打得準打得遠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
587.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
608.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
才回到剛才剛現在那一題嘛要打得準打得遠我們花大錢買的飛彈導彈都要又遠又準那我們每一個單兵各一個步槍兵所使用的武器當然我們也希望它能夠又遠又準所以瞄準鏡幾乎在美軍是標配所以我們T-1122也謝謝部長那時候才是就是全部都要配上光學相關的瞄準鏡那 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
609.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
624.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
M4是好槍啦M4A1是美軍現役在用的槍所以它如果有搭配一部分的瞄準鏡我們未來會不會想辦法讓它都補上來會全部都補滿會補滿嘛那使用的時機點是什麼它不是都會裝在上面訓練的時候 射擊訓練的時候它就會裝上去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
626.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
651.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那在實戰的戰備的任務呢實戰戰備裡面他會依照不同的狀況去做配掛好 下一次你們再有相關的戰備釋出的相片裡面讓我們看到有掛配他什麼時機要用另外古斯塔夫無後座力炮其實是算世界一流先進的反戰車炮那美國當時PDA也送了一批古斯塔夫給我們我們到底有沒有配下去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
654.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
661.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
幫委員這個部分可能不方便在這裡做說明理由是什麼我們軍援的部分原則上 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
664.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
684.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有部分涉及敏感的部分我們就不會公開做說話我尊重 我的意思是說如果美國軍援的東西合我們用我們現在是擔心後勤補給跟不上那我們就要思考相關的採購跟我們的配發要一致如果不合我們用我們也應該要表達說這跟我們現在裝備有抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
685.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
706.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
而不是收了援助放在倉庫這個就不好我不知道有沒有放在倉庫如果有用是個好因為我看不管烏克蘭戰場或美軍現役古斯塔夫是一個好的裝備人家無償送給我們那表示要買也買得到那這個東西可不可以補足我們現在反裝甲的火力不足因為我們的66火箭彈效期快到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
707.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
731.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
紅準一也沒達標啊我們紅準二測評現在好像還沒有測完啊所以我們希望說這個火力如果是我們戰備所需求的應該要尋求這個世界一流先進給我們國軍弟兄最好的裝備我們再講一次軍事採購扶植國防產業那是第二目標第一目標是給國軍弟兄用合用好用該用的東西而不是為了扶植產業用次等品 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
732.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
742.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個觀念不一樣所以有好裝備要弄上去所以古斯塔夫你不方便回答有沒有使用我就不為難海馬斯上面有架一個應該是排用機槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
744.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
764.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我上次看他展出的時候上面有架一頂機槍我們海馬斯的 有嘛你們架的不是美國的他標配的那種台用機槍我看起來裝的是我們國產的那個小小的那個是世衛用的機槍所以我們是依現有的數量去做搭配對 你們現在裝在海馬斯上面就那門槍 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
765.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
775.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
跟那個車子不是一組的啦你是用我們自己示威用的那個排用機槍吧那為什麼不裝上美國直接他也送了排用機槍給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
778.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
798.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們後面針對海馬斯智慧的部分那個是分層次檢討的那在當初海馬斯的這個構案裡面我們主要的是針對火箭發射平台跟ATACM的這個部分還有精準GMLS的這個火箭去做採購那後續再依照作戰需求我們事實上各個裝備我們會陸續進行調整來做採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
801.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
817.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我另外請教這個配付量剛才講的為什麼彈灰需求量大因為我們現在實戰化訓練然後讓兵習慣用槍這個是好事我們一直在鼓勵這件事情就我了解T1122我們的吸行量配付量我們的彈匣現在標準是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
818.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
841.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
沒有 不只7個 應該是11個 你比的跟陳建義比的就不一樣11個啦 7個是C型量啦 兩個再連 兩個再贏嘛 對不對所以總共每一把步槍 從過去 其實以前只配4個配4個 你以烏克蘭戰場來看 少一輪子彈就用完了所以我們現在把C型量符合實戰化的需求每一個步槍兵帶7個彈匣 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
843.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
859.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
然後呢 兵營 軍營就是連跟營各保存兩個所以是四個 四加七所以每一把槍配十一個所以我們的彈量要增加 彈匣也要增加而且你們是塑鋼的嘛 那個塑膠的比較好所以我們現在 我曾經在這邊要求以後不要讓部隊去省彈匣 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
861.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
876.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你知道嗎 部隊有時候槍卡彈不是槍不好是那個彈匣被敲半天彈不上來這個把它當耗損品部長我建議很多次了我們自己兵工廠生產的彈匣能不能讓我們各使用步槍的單位每一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
877.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
895.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
給他換30%就是我強制配下去讓你更新因為不要因為一個彈匣這麼低價的東西去影響整支槍的效能勤儉建軍是陸軍的文化你們省到那個彈匣從頭上敲 敲到桌上那子彈彈不起來就彈不起來這個不好所以我建議這彈匣定期更新你們現在有沒有這個政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
896.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
924.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
鮑委員有 我們除了您要求的T112每一支槍要多增加4個彈匣之外另外T勾1含以前其他的原來配附是5個我們現在要增加到11個的話要多買6個另外檢討了全軍現在所有故障的彈匣數字我就不跟您報告了這三個部分我們全部都重新檢討也編列了相關預算盡快太新了我覺得給國軍隊的裝備足夠的資源讓國軍弟兄我們不管在各項家籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
925.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
954.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們過去十年加擠調整了十八次啦然後我們的基本的薪資調整了四次當然我們希望越多越好只要合法合憲大家來處理但是裝備要合宜我覺得這是每一個不管是士兵到將領裝備合宜是一個非常重要的事情那我就不再多佔時間我希望部長我們我一直在檢討我們的邊線比最小戰力域值以及相關的東西我還是會持續追蹤希望如果整理好出來之後給本席一份 好不好那以上謝謝各位時間 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
955.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
955.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 謝謝 |