| IVOD_ID |
16701 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16701 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-22 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-22T08:30:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-22T14:13:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:42:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fccd64100527991d8c9e564336fc7700a1a12e9ca99aa835c00c91aa8f172d82fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會（事由：「回應民意，虐童刑責法制總檢討」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:34 - 14:13:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好不好意思好我們現在開始開會我們今天舉回名義虐童刑責法治總檢討公聽會首先我們介紹出席的學者專家按照簽到的順序介紹好先請麻煩入座那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2032.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2052.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們介紹林志傑教授大家好徐妮妮總召集人劉育偉副教授蔡佩珊甲官林志豪理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2056.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2082.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
蕭東元理事長王漢陽理事長張明偉副院長李聖傑副教授黃鼎軒副教授林育順教授董於伯律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2086.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2111.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
周宇修律師因為今天還有其他專家是從比較遠的地方過來那他們有跟我們持續保持聯絡他們有的還在搭乘大眾交通工具上所以我們待會他們都會陸續到接著我們介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2114.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2139.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
政府機關代表 法務部次長徐次長檢察司長張司長衛福部保護司司長張司長法務部矯正署林副署長司法院刑事廳理廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2144.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2171 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
司法院少家庭廳長、中庭廳長內政部防治組科長、陳科長刑事局林科長中華民國生命平權協會理事朱理事提示人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2173.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2179.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
回應民意 虐童刑責法制總檢討 公聽會討論提綱1. |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2179.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2185 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
虐視兒童相關刑責法制是否有測定之處?1. |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2185 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2199.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
現行刑法第328條對於犯強盜罪因而致人於死者最高亦可判處死刑則為滿7歲之人其自我保護及反抗之能力遠低於強盜罪之被害人是否參考刑法第328條 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2200.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2226.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
提升幼童凌虐致死者之最高刑度為死刑 括弧二因應刑法第286條第五項之增定無期徒刑如何再加重是否應增列不得假釋 括弧三依公民與政治權利國際公約第六條第二項規範禁止各締約國將情節非最重大之罪判處死刑為所指情節罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2228.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2248.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
重大之罪是否限於直接故意殺人而排除間接故意殺人罪二每每發生虐視兒童案件均會引起社會公憤若行為人判處無期徒刑一定期間後即可假釋是否應全面檢討無期徒刑法制可否增列不得假釋三 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2248.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2268.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
虐童案件多疑有期徒刑論處例如2015年花蓮發生情侶以七大酷刑虐待三歲女童致死案於2017年經法院判處13年6月徒刑確定為實際警服刑六年於即經法務部矯正署核准假釋現行虐童遭判 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2268.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2292.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有歧途刑治案件,多能因假釋制度而減少實際刑期,是否應檢討有歧途刑,增列不得假釋之規定?4.被害人參與刑事訴訟後,是否應有獨立上訴權、結問權、證據調查申請權,包括刑事訴訟法、國民法官法、少年事件處理法相關法制應如何擴充? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2293.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2305.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
以完整保障被害人訴訟權益 括弧一女童案之被害人年紀尚輕如何保障其訴訟上權益 括弧二非幼童之被害人是否應擴充上開相關訴訟上權益 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2311.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2332.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 謝謝在邀請各位發言之前我們先就公定會進行程序的說明首先我們會請專家學者學者專家發言發言的順序依據簽到的先後順序那如果需要提前發言就請先通知主席台那我們會視情況予以調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2333.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2350.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那本院的委員按照登記先後順序發言那如果陸續到場等席會穿插安排請委員發言最後我們再請政府機關代表發言針對學者專家及委員的意見加以回應那與會者就請到發言台的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2352.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2379.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
發言台右邊這個是學者專家跟機關練習代表的發言台那左邊這個是委員的發言台那由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家的意見所以每位學者專家發言時間為10分鐘那本院委員發言時間為5分鐘首先我們請學者專家發言第一位我們請林志傑教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2387.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2409.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
親愛的召委 各位專家學者 各位部會代表的長官還有我們立法院的同仁 大家早安 大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的林志傑老師那麼同時我也是法務部刑法修正小組的成員不過我要先聲明今天以下的發言是以專家學者跟我個人還有一個母親的立場來回應這個刑法328條等相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2413.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2437.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不代表法務部刑法修正小組全體委員的意見謝謝首先謝謝大家的邀請那這是一個令人感到非常沉重而且心碎的主題那麼由於我國的憲法法庭大法官已經針對我國到底要不要廢死做出解釋也就是在現行法下大法官的做法是慎死而不廢死因此我們確實有這個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2440.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2462.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我國刑法分責相關的條文或者是特殊刑法有沒有增修死刑的空間和先續名那麼針對今天立法院所給的提綱我大概分成兩個部分來做討論第一個部分是就法制的嚴格跟法制的革新部分第二個由於相關的重大矚目案件凱凱案已經有一審的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2463.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2481.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以我們可以針對這個個案的一審判決來進行討論首先針對相關的這個條文是不是應該做一個處理或者是在刑度上面做調整我個人從過去到現在的立場跟憲法法庭是一致的就是慎死而不費死 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2482.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2503.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在我過去的論註跟言論中我認為在兩種極端的狀況應該可以允許刑事法規保有死刑的裁量空間第一種狀況是它對生命法益是多數的而且是故意的造成了傷亡比如說我們可以看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2504.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2519.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個東京這個奧姆真理教他在地下鐵裡面施放毒氣造成多人的死亡或者是911的恐攻他用這個飛機去衝撞世貿大樓一次造成多數法醫的死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2519.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2543.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我覺得在這種狀況裡面是可以允許有保留死刑同時司法針對個案去對死刑與否進行裁量第二種狀況是雖然生命法醫的侵害只有一個但是他的手段極其殘忍那沒有教化的可能性那必須永久隔離在這種狀況下可能也可以有這個死刑存在的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2544.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2567.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
另外一種狀況呢他不在平常的審判就是在戰爭時期所以大概原則上來講我過去到現在都一直認為在這些極端的狀況下是可以允許死刑的存在至於立法院今天所提的問題說到兩公約裡面所謂的intentionally killing或intentionally result in death這樣子的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2568.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2593.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個所謂的intention到底有沒有包括間接故意那麼首先就要跟大家報告所謂直接故意就是比如說我刻意要造成另外一個人的死亡所以去殺他這是直接故意間接故意的意思是比如說無差別的殺人或者是我們講我開著車子我就是暴衝我就是要往前走即使我知道前面是綠燈 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2595.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2610.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
很多行人都在走路我認為就算撞死人我也無所謂好倘若我是這種無差別的放任性的一次性的我就是要做這件事情即使死人也不違背我的本意這就是所謂的間接故意那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2610.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2639.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一般我們在美國法上面所謂的intentionally它其實是指你要具備有這個故意的成分至於是直接故意跟間接故意都可以包含在內所以提綱裡面所提到的這種intentionally killing是不是僅限於直接故意我認為是不一定的如果今天是間接故意就像我剛剛講的我開著車子我直接爆衝我就算撞死人我也無所謂一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2640.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2660.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
視人命為無關無防無所謂的態度這種間接故意也是一種intentionally killing它不需要特定的我刻意的就是要造成某人的死亡因為如果是這樣它其實就是一種謀殺那麼至於在美國法上有沒有類似的情形呢是有的美國法上有一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2660.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2678.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
犯罪的太陽叫做felony murder就重罪謀殺或者是重罪殺人他講的狀況就是前面如果你觸犯了一個felony一年以上有期徒刑的罪就叫felony後面造成了死亡的結果他的刑度是有可能有死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2679.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2700.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那這個就回應到立法院今天的問題如果今天是強盜而且致死可不可以有死刑可以的我們目前的條文裡面這也是一個選項那麼如果今天是虐童而導致致死可不可以增加死刑的選項我個人也認為是可以的所以這是回應立法院的前兩題 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2701.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2717.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是在這裡我想要提醒大家也提醒我們未來的立法為什麼這樣子的立法有可能造成其他體力上的問題因為凌虐童致死他有可能會被引發的是其他無自救力之人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2718.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2744.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以其實我們為什麼會對相關的案件感到非常的憤怒是因為行為人所去施行凌虐的對象是一個沒有辦法有自救力的人可是沒有辦法有自救力的人並不只有幼童我們舉例假使是一個癱瘓的人他頭部以上是非常清醒的可是他身體不能移動你對於無自救力之人去把他殺掉凌虐 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2746.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2769.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
比如說重度的凌虐到最後讓他致死比如說用熱開水燙他最後脫水而亡請問這樣他跟虐童的狀況有何差異所以如果我們單獨是對虐童致死去把他加入死刑那我想我們應該要回應的是其他無自救力之人的虐待導致死亡的結果我們是不是也應該要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2769.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2784.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以倘若今天你在刑法分責針對兒童去做這樣的規定可能就會有其他的類似狀況會想要比照當然我們另外一種立法的技術就是把它放在兒少的福利法裡面就如同我們之前提過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2785.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2800.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
修法2019年對於兒少的虐待我們加重其刑二分之一我覺得這也是一個有可能的立法但無論如何你在前階段的構成要件都要隨同調整才有可能避免輕輕法重的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2801.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2826.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
另外我要跟各位報告的是無期徒刑不得假釋我個人是比較不贊同的因為如果有死刑的選項我就不贊同無期徒刑不得假釋一方面是無期徒刑不得假釋其實在過去我們在做任何刑事政策的討論它都是一個比較不具備達到刑事訴訟不管是應報預防或者是教化目的的一種刑度的規劃方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2827.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2847.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那麼再來的情況就是倘若今天已經有死刑這個選項你還是要容認有司法的裁量最後一個是關於唯一死刑這個大法官在憲法法庭早就已經說過唯一死刑是僭越權利分立同時剝奪司法裁量權是一個違憲的狀況所以我個人是反對唯一死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2848.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2863.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
接下來我們要來談的就是這個眾所矚目的凱凱案其實各位可以看到在凱凱案的情形倘若今天檢察官起訴的條文是殺人他其實就具備了有可能在科處良刑的時候選擇死刑的選項 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2865.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2888.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那至於凱凱案有沒有可能在一開始起訴的時候用殺人罪呢我認為是有可能的因為你對於一個一歲的小孩施予的種種虐待加上他的無自救能力事實上他實時上已經具備了間接殺人的故意也就是我剛剛提到的就算是他死掉也不違背我本意的狀況所以其實在個案上 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2889.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2905.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果要救濟是不是一定要靠修法我其實可能在個案的裁量上不管是一開始的偵查起訴的罪名或者是審判中來變更起訴的法條都是有可能來解決可能大家認為刑度不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2906.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2926.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那最後回到凱凱案的中整跟分析我個人認為這個問題更重要的應該是前端的預防也就是說在縣市政府的速度訪視裡為什麼沒有去看到這個幼童已經有很明顯的跟在他前一個保母家出現完全不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2926.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2944.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
身體的傷害精神的衰弱以及各方面沒有辦法再像過去一個健康幼童的成長曲線只要我們有生養過小孩的都知道幼童的生長曲線其實是非常清楚可以去判斷的所以一個生命的消逝我們都非常的痛心尤其作為母親 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2945.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2966.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
對於這種虐童案我是深惡痛絕的但是如果要做法規的調整恐怕不適合第一個加上所謂30年有期徒刑因為這是違背我國這個刑法上面有期徒刑的上限的這個是沒辦法做的第二個唯一死刑也不是我們的選項但是調整前面的構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2967.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2987.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
在刑度上加上死刑針對無自救力之人我個人認為這個修法是可行的差異只在要把它定在刑法分則內或者是針對兒少去做一個特殊的立法那最後要講的是在這樣立法下可能要考慮的另外一個問題就是照護殺人或者是長照杯葛 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2988.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3014.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為很多無自救力之人他是高度仰賴大家照顧的那麼這個在上次立法院的另一場公聽會我們就討論過所以如果要做無自救力之人的立法也請一併予以考慮以上發言謝謝召委那也跟大家抱歉因為10點教育部有會議所以沒有辦法等一下留下來聆聽大家的高見再次感謝謝謝非常謝謝林教授那下一位我們請徐總召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3017.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3031.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們補充介紹到場的吳嘉琳律師以及李佑群女士另外我們補充介紹黃國昌委員那請開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3035.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3057.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
委員謝謝,謝謝昭偉,然後各位專家,各位長官,大家好那我是還想陪你長大的總召徐妮妮對,那我今天想要探討的部分,因為我自己是有在接一些社工的相關事務對,所以我今天想分享的,就是我們不要再來晚了就是肆虐兒童事件下的刑責檢討,以及我們的改革訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3061.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3070.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
對 崇凱開的案件我們往下探討我們到底漏接了多少的孩子就是首先我們希望就是謝謝法務部願意面對民眾的心聲從不予採納 無後續規劃變成嚴義中 真的是十分感謝那我們也想要爭取這個嚴義中和後續如果有開設公聽會是不是也能邀請我們現在在場的這些民間團體到場 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3086.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3102.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
是不是也能納入我們民間的聲音作為參考對 那也希望法務部可以給我們一個正面的回應首先現行刑法286條有沒有測定空間在場的專家 各位學者一定比我專業但是我想說雖然刑法286條第五項已經規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3104.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3124.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
致死者可以判無期徒刑但若是最終他還是可以假釋仍然很難去彰顯正義我們認為應該要增列一個不得假釋的明文規定七歲以下幼兒他沒有反抗能力沒有逃生跟求救的能力卻反覆被成人長期凌虐致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3125.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3141.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
又有需要的是國家提供更高等級的保護因此我們要求調升刑度我們認為應該調整成最低刑度15年以上最高可判處死刑而不是只調高最高我們希望最低的限度它應該也要往上提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3143.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3162.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
2015年花蓮三歲女童虐死案我們判處她有期徒刑13年但加害者服刑6年她就假釋出獄了2005年邱小妹被父親虐死的案件我們判處她有期徒刑12年但她服刑8年就假釋出獄了而且她出獄之後還再犯刑刑案 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3164.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3177.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這兩個案例都顯示機事法院對滅同致死者判處多年的徒刑實際服刑期間卻因為假釋制度大幅縮短導致社會對司法的公正性是存疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3178.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3195.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
高高法定刑上限並不等於我每個案件我都要判處死刑而是我們提供了司法體系在罪惡性案件中有相對應的裁量空間我們只針對特殊主觀惡性明顯以及長期施行凌虐才開放死刑的處段 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3197.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3211.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
對於兒童而言保障生命與人格發展都屬於憲法高度優先法義對於嚴重侵害這些人的去對他施以重刑完全符合保護弱勢生命的正當目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3216.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3241.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那我現在想要補充 像我們的CRC第六條它其實就是保障兒童生存與發展權第十九條 免受所有形式的暴力第三十七條 禁止酷刑以及殘忍對待再來我們的憲法十五條它保障了人民的生存權 工作權 財產權都應該要有保障二十二條 其他自由權利包含了我們的人格發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3242.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3268.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
台灣是一個民主而且自由的國家我們進行的每一次修法我相信都不會是之前沈博洋委員在直播上曾經提過的社運團體號召人民上街使出逼迫性修法而是我們應該要經過多次的討論我們才做下這個決定無論是之前人民站上街的任何修法案件性侵害防治法也好紅重修的案件也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3269.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3293.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這些都是國家應該要給予民眾的回應回應我們這些孩子生命逝去的這些事實真正在逼迫的不是我們民間耶是你們這些立委你們這些機關政要你們看著孩子白白死去什麼都不做這才是逼迫性修法我們作為家長我們很多的事情要做我們要陪伴孩子長大為什麼我們要站在街頭為這些孩子請命我想要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3298.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3320.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在場的各級長官委員以及先進我們有沒有辦法接受長期凌虐一個幼兒致死只因為我們沒辦法證明他是殺人故意行為人頂多關十幾年就出獄那還有哪一位長官敢在這一個個被凌虐致死的孩子遺照面前說這些凌虐你的人是不應該被判處死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3321.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3338.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
殺人罪可以判死 凌虐致死卻不行難道慢慢虐死沒有比痛快殺人還要嚴重嗎國家寧願避免極少數的加害者被過度處罰我們也不願意保護更多數的孩子去免於他們受到凌虐嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3340.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3360.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
再來我想要講講我們的邵氏法的部分校園割喉案件自從陳勳事件之後我們已經過了將近一年半我想要請教司法院從113年8月8號這個邵氏法修正草案含他機關會嫌至今我們直接沉入海底欸 消失欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3362.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3383.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
請問有沒有做後續的跟進那行政院這邊是不是有遇到什麼困難還是說我們真的立院主公無人在意就沒有人要去推進這個東西當孩子犯錯我們才進入輔導系統少年法庭我們才開始進行處慾我真的想問這個時候我們才第一次教他什麼是法律這樣真的不會太晚嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3386.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3402.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
下一個首先我們想要提我們最早的訴求少事法83-1條關於前科塗銷制度是否應該採取有條件不予塗銷首先少事法它本身的設計就是為了保護少年以利他們更生 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3403.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3423.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
但是我們缺乏分級分類還有條件審查的情況下反而更可能讓少年缺乏對與錯的界限認知降低他對這個行為的後果警覺性導致重複犯罪我這邊要強調間接導致重複犯罪他的重複犯罪大家都名列一筆喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3425.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3432.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們也不要讓這一個利益良善的制度成為少年逃避責任的工具而非反省行為的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3434.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3447.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
再來上市法84條 輕職教育內容調整我自己現在有在接一些家庭輔導支持的案件就是當這個孩子他在一些情況下他已經出現偏離常軌了那會進行通報就會由我們第三人進去這個家庭去做一個輔導跟支持讓這個家庭重新運轉起來讓父母學會怎麼跟孩子溝通跟建立關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3458.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3478.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我們認為家庭應該依照不同的情況做分級分類的處遇主要照顧者本來就應該負起教育跟養育孩子的責任跟義務不應該將這些問題轉移到社政我們都應該要用家庭為主 社會為輔在家庭有能力自己療癒自己的時候社會資源也應該提早介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3479.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3494.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們希望課程內容該以親子共同輔導為主而不是家長去到現場就看投影投影投影報告然後就去看場電影寫一個心得就我學會怎麼教孩子了這是不對的我們是需要也可能需要進行團體諮商 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3496.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3521.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
最重要的一點我認為應該要引進IEP也就是個別化教育系統那要怎麼提升這些孩子參與家長參與輔導的意願我們都知道少年犯罪的成因是很複雜的最大的問題可能就是貧窮所以我們是不是能夠提供考慮去報銷當日的薪資或者是說請假不扣薪等配套措施來去讓家長提升這一種輔導加入輔導的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3524.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3549.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
再來就是人力不足的困境還有社政資源的集中管理我們常常在很多次的會議中都聽到了保護官的困境我們人力不足都應該要予以重視能不能我們不要以原則支持實際無力的這種空話我希望請司法院協助提供保護官的理想人力比跟目前的實際人力比到底是多少然後含附給大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3550.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3570.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
如果我們無法補充少保官的人力缺口那就等於是無法落實個案輔導應及時介入的精神怎麼樣給予每一位受傷的少年第一線人員還有無錯的家長交代消失法不應該只例字不落地消失法的落實與否絕大部分取決於我們的人力到不到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3571.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3588.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
目前少年的個案分散在不同部門有教育衛福司法地方雖然我們有跨部會聯繫但各部門人員的公務繁重所以它是得開而不是因開所以我們希望不要再導致資料轉嫌資訊落差服務重疊或者是斷層 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3591.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3614.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
希望由行政院這邊搭建一個少年整合平台或者是借街調閱我們建立一個少年資料庫導入分級查閱系統我們不需要公開完整案底只要從他的身份去查閱必要資料就可以了我們就可以馬上知道我們應該給予他怎麼樣的處遇以及他可能遇到的風險以此方式落實消失法的處遇優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3615.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3640.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
再來我想要提我們的少年矯正機關從陳勳事件之後我們的少年矯正機關的狀況它依然是層出不窮我們2020年城鎮中學連續三天的搖房暴動2020年桃園少官所姓霸凌事件還有其他鬥毆搖房事件頻傳2021年台北少官所搖房事件委員不好意思可以讓我說完嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3643.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3652.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那2024年端平中學大型集體搖防暴動事件這甚至還請了50名外面的人員進去進行我們不要講鎮壓我們去進行輔導跟協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3656.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3678.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那日本少年的教保比大概是1比10到1比15德國則是1比7到1比10那我國呢1比30甚至更高我想要請法務部能不能也含附如果要達到現場矯正教育成效覺察反省自身過錯這件事情我們理想人力比大概是如何如果人力補充上有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3679.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3698.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我相信人民的声音也愿意成为你们的依靠我们愿意为了孩子站在这里倡议只要孩子能平安的长大我们都很愿意多元化的储育也不应该只是口号要热实在储育内容的各个角落从社工法院矫正储育的内容出校出所后的转型机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3699.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3727.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我想要請法務部能不能協助提供各區矯正學校校官所目前的實際處遇內容我們曾接獲校內老師反應其實少年他們坐在教室的時候他們只希望少年不要調皮你去吵鬧 你去鬧房 你去鬧都不要發生在我的課程上就好我們給予少年的觀念難道就是飯不好吃我就搖房不順我意我就暴動老師要討好我 不然我就來吵吵到我有糖吃為止嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3728.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3749.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
會進入收容跟感化教育的少年他們成因都有一定的複雜性而且我希望大家了解這些少年他們已經社會化很長一段時間了如果我們沒辦法在他出校出所前教他們如何獨立生活那他們復歸社會的時候回到阿兄跟狗狗身邊那都是很必然的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3750.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3779.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
最後我希望我們能不能考慮重啟少年矯正研究中心的討論因為我們曾聽過多次有老師反映矯正學校從上到下的遴選制度百出最多最多我們聽到的就是校長是去累積退休年資的還有校長是爽缺等等那我們也有少年矯正指導教育指導委員會還是屢試發聲弊端以新竹城鎮中學舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3780.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3808.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
曾經發生教務主任自己加班補休彈性上下班這些都有評議書可以查一年250個小時那因為校長挺那矯正署到底有沒有落實調查對不對那因為證明教務主任的行為老師都不願意當這種主任的幕僚只剩下代理老師兼職組長那代理老師也跟著日常遲到報加班補休一早他到現在運動一小時十點半吃早餐十一點半就下班 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3809.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3835.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
同學們反映校長說新竹市出差沒有給組長交通費每天下午出差不上班是補償我今天我們就成為吹哨者請法務部協助提供調查調查後也希望能夠給我們具體的人事物以及對現場教師的霸凌也請各位委員監督如果是屬實還請法務部嚴懲不待不要讓我們的第一線教輔小組與介護同仁含辛最後矯正體系還有一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3838.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3844.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
身心疾患者的學生增加一線教師常常需要負擔超出平均值的編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3845.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3869.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這對老師跟學生而言都是很不公平的成立研究中心最大的目的除了監督跟領選之外更重要的我希望大家知道是傳承少年相關的輔導業務調整以及未來的修正方向都是靠經驗跟傳承不斷的去積累希望法務部能夠思量去重啟這一個討論那身為父母的我們能為孩子做的不多我們只希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3870.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3888.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
讓孩子平安長大不要再成為我們上街的口號我們真的不要再為了孩子平安而站在街頭為大家倡議我也希望大家可以下地看看我們的孩子是真的活在地獄那我們這一邊有提供就是我們收集的民眾的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3889.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3915.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這邊是三百三百五十幾封的手寫陳情書那能不能請衛福部還有司法院的長官幫我們接下這陳情書麻煩衛福部還有司法院的代表然後對民眾的訴求啊那麻煩你們能收下好那麻煩到前面來好那還有剛剛就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3922.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3947.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
再麻煩你剛剛發言人所提到的部分再麻煩邵家廷還有刑事廳最後還有提到法務部還有衛福部這些麻煩具體的回覆回覆的部分也給我辦公室一份我也想研究一下看整個狀況好 謝謝下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3957.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3980.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
謝謝主席 在開始發言之前我想要請教主席一件事情今天這麼多的學者專家出席甚至我剛在下面聽到許總召集人的發言我其實感觸非常的深剛出來衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3986.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4014.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
接這麼多人民手寫陳情書的我發現既不是部長也不是次長今天衛福部是沒有把這個公定會當回事嗎部長跟次長有什麼更重要的事情就請假跟黃永遠說明一下因為次長他現在人在國外所以他沒有辦法過來只有一個次長所有的次長都在國外 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4016.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4020.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
現在衛福部是只有一個次長所有的次長都在國外是不是那其他的次長呢一個人在國外其他都不用來是這樣嗎你們衛福部要回去看一看你們今天提出來的報告啊像話嗎短短的兩頁交差了事啊這麼重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4045.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4050.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
多少人站上街頭啊你們提兩頁的報告出來敷衍大家主席準價我尊重但我希望衛福部的代表把我今天的意見帶回去你們衛福部告訴邱太元部長這麼重要的事情他自己不來已經很誇張了連次長都請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4074.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4077.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
虧你們還是什麼 主管機關啊這些媽媽看了不會心寒嗎現在是衛福部每個官位都很大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4096.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4106.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
不好意思喔主席因為我尊重你給他們準價但我覺得作為一個立法委員我該表達的立場我一定要表達你們今天啊衛福部如果事前的預防做得好我們有必要坐在這邊啊討論加重刑罰的事情嗎你們自己都不會汗顏不會覺得丟臉 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4126.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4145.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
還散漫連次長都不來拜託衛福部的代表把我今天強烈的意見回去告訴邱太元部長我下次到衛環委員會的時候我會當面質詢他這件事情好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4147.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4172.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
非常感謝今天所有的學者專家針對這份重要的議題提出寶貴的意見我更感謝這麼多的民間團體犧牲自己的時間在公餘的時候不管是站上街頭還是來到立法院發出人民的心聲我自己是一個法律人 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4174.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4199.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
但是我們自己都會時常的反省法律人是不是有的時候有過度專業的傲慢而忘了去聆聽第一線基層人民的心聲每一天這麼多年輕的朋友在凱凱安開庭的時候齊聚在台北地方法院外面發出人民的訴求跟怒吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4200.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4221.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
當天也有立法委員到台北地方法院外去聲援我相信我也支持這個是公民社會監督我們司法權運作非常健康的一個意見表達的形式而且也是必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4222.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4234.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這個案件讓我們重新開啟了對於很多事情深切的反省跟思考為什麼這樣子說呢我也要特別感謝昭偉今天召開這一場公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4238.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4261.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為每一次我們在討論刑度的時候我最常看見法務部也好司法院也好所提出來的書面報告會挑其中一兩個罪名說這樣子不符合罪責的相當性在法定刑的權衡上面是失衡我必須要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4263.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4280.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
從我們過去刑法到今天各式各樣特別法的修正的確裡面存在的在各個法條彼此之間的法定型的輕重權衡有的時候從純法律的觀點難以解釋但 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4282.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4296.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個是我們在檢討刑度的時候我們的法務部從來就沒有通盤的就刑法分責的規定是不是有重新檢討的必要交出完整的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4297.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4319.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
也就是說當立法者要回應民意要修改法律針對特定罪名去調整刑度的時候我們法務部慣常的思考模式就是從刑法分則裡面挑起他的條文說你動了這一個那另外的條文法定刑的權衡就會相似衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4320.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4333.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
如果這個是原因的話請法務部的次長今天帶回去請法務部認真地檢討我們針對刑法分責的法定刑有沒有重新全盤調整的必要我為什麼這樣子說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4335.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4362.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們目前刑法328條在暴力的財產犯罪的時候第三項規定暴力財產犯罪我們第一項是五年以上有期徒刑再往下是犯強盜罪因而致人於死處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑犯暴力的財產法益侵害的犯罪如果致人於死可以處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4363.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4376.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那但是每一次我們碰到286條的時候法務部永遠的意見都是如果凌虐兒童致死的話如果給他死刑權衡上面會輕重失衡永遠的理由通通都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4383.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4408.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
但是我們看328條跟286條彼此之間的比較就可以清楚的看得出來如果財產侵害財產法律的犯罪透過暴力行為侵害財產法律的犯罪因而致人於死都可以處死刑為什麼 輪孽兒童甚至是一定歲數以下不管是七歲以下 五歲以下 三歲以下完全沒有自衛能力的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4409.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4437.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
自而於死 處法定刑到死刑法務部為什麼一直都在反對為什麼一直都在反對那當然我必須要說的是328條我也看過學者有提出批判但是學者的批判我們立法者都會虛心的傾聽但是我們更關心的是怎麼樣去回應人民的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4438.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4457.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
當我去思考怎麼去回應人民期待的時候我們馬上就會發現立法者現在面對的困難以及我們可不可以跨越的鴻溝因為刑法328條第三項這一個加重結果犯的處死刑依照 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4458.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4480.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們憲法法庭去年的判決必須要限於有直接蓋瓜或者是折衣的殺人故意才可以處這個法定刑也就是回到了當我們的憲法法庭它不當的介入了我們立法形成的空間對於死刑科處難以跨越的障礙的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4482.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4498.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我們必須要嚴肅的面對我們在法定型的調整上立法者還有多少空間在什麼樣子的程度範圍內可以去做調整如果按照我們憲法法庭的要求因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4499.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4513.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
公正公約的確有說施以死刑必須要the most serious crime也就是最嚴重的罪但是我們大法官又往前更跨了一步不僅僅是最嚴重的罪還要犯罪情節最嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4515.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4529.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我在這裡直詢了好幾次問什麼叫做犯罪情節最嚴重要如何判定不管是法務部的代表還是司法院的代表到目前為止沒有辦法提出一個清楚的準據但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4530.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4552.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們面臨的困難是一模一樣的當我們的大法官針對這件事情甚至針對我們現在刑法裡面有科死刑的法定刑到底要限縮到什麼樣的程度才可以科處手直接都伸進了立法形成的範圍的時候我們接下來在有關於虐童致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4553.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4574.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我們的立法者還存在多少的空間還存在多少的空間可以滿足我們的大法官他們自居為立法者所創設的要件這個是我們接下來所要面對的第一個問題那第二個問題我也要呼應有很多民間團體所提出來的這早就不是新鮮事 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4575.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4595.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我國什麼時候有無期徒刑無期徒刑只活在六法全書裡無期徒刑從來沒有落實在具體的實踐當中在具體的實踐當中即使是殺人罪即使是黑幫老大的殺人罪判了無期徒刑關十八年 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4596.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4623.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
假釋處遇關18年假釋處遇那大家會覺得很奇怪我國刑法規定不是要規定要關滿25年無期徒刑才可以假釋嗎那是因為我們目前刑法整個在刑法上面的處遇對於加害人對於受刑人有所謂的雙重憂鬱什麼叫雙重憂鬱第一個在監鎖的時候就透過所謂的累進處遇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4626.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4654.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
讓他關一個月有的可以抵兩天有的可以抵四天有的可以抵六天如果到外議監去做爽勞可以關一天算兩天所以一般的人民很難理解明明不是要一半才可以假育假釋明明不是無期一徒期要過25年才假釋怎麼我們看到這麼多重大的犯罪類型重大的犯罪加害人的時候常常關不到一半就出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4655.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4679.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這一種雙重憂鬱的這一種雙重憂鬱我們目前刑事司法的設計你要不然就有假釋我透過假釋的制度鼓勵你改過向善可以早一點出來但是我有門檻我要不然就透過累進處慾的制度透過累進處慾在裡面慢慢的縮短你的刑期但是我們的刑事司法是這兩個制度都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4680.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4705.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
既有什麼 既有縮短刑期的規定又有什麼 又有假釋的規定當這兩個加起來了以後就是我們現在人民看到為什麼常常關不到一半啊 就出來這件事情 在2017年私改國是會議的時候有沒有提出來討論過 有提出來討論過結論有沒有改革的必要 有改革的必要但是我必須要沉痛的說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4706.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4733.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
毫不令人意外的2017年的史改國式會議不僅僅是林玉秀老師所講的天燈會議放天燈大會更離譜的事情是做成的決議根本沒有在執行浪費納稅人的錢開大拜拜的會議結果會議有結論到現在2025年8年過去了法務部司法院難辭其咎難辭其咎 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4736.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4762.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
把司改國事會議當成廢紙根本沒有認真的在面對上面的問題那因此當我們的法務部開始跟大家講說在我們的大法官對於死刑的施加施加了難以跨越的鴻溝以後整個社會在討論無期徒刑不可以假設的無期徒刑應不應該是選項法務部說他們贊成應該是選項去年 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4766.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4791.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
透過媒體發新聞稿說年底要完成 要提出現在已經2025年的5月請問法務部東西在哪裡法務部部長給我的回應是說行政院還在研議我必須要老實跟大家報告我現在是只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕我只要聽到研議兩個字就害怕因為崔少哲保護法 法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4792.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4804.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
研議了八年提不出草案棄保潛逃罪研議了八年提不出草案不法關說罪研議了八年還是提不出草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4806.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4832.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我只要聽到法務部或行政院的官員說他們還在研議啊我聽了就害怕了所以我懇請召委啊懇請召委我肯定召委排這個公聽會但是但是法務部的官員可以混可以繼續研議民間社會不能等民間社會不能等我們社會法治委員會在履行我們立法委員職責的時候該排案就排案繼續往前推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4833.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4859.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我受不了等法務部跟行政院的研議啊我們今天難道要這邊站在這邊告訴人民說讓我們的法務部跟行政院再研議八年啊給他們研議八年以後再來處理啊絕對不接受最後一點寶貴的意見啊犯罪被害人的訴訟參與權我曾經當過犯罪被害人的義務辯護人我在法庭上面實際參與了犯罪被害人的法庭活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4861.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4888.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們說強化犯罪被害人訴訟上的地位跟國際接軌那根本是騙人的做半套林玉雄老師的書就寫得很清楚2019年那個時候要求要強化的時候立法理由寫得很漂亮說跟國際接軌那實際上是什麼實際上面是言過其實人為改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4889.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4909.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
沒有改變被害人不是程序主體的基本立場犯罪被害人在刑事訴訟程序上面沒有被視為程序主體沒有辦法對於證人對質詢問沒有辦法對於上訴與否有更大的決定權這個是早就浮在檯面上面的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4911.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4929.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我希望司法院也好法務部也好不要一天到晚做大內宣什麼跟國際接軌你到底在講什麼東西啊聽不懂啊明明只有做半套最重要的東西都沒有然後在文書上面發新聞稿跟台灣人民說跟國際接軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4931.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4952.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我最後再次感謝所有學者專家跟民間團體的代表給我們的寶貴意見有的時候我們因為必須要跑來跑去未必可以全程聆聽但是各位寶貴的意見都會在立法院公報留下寶貴的紀錄謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員那下一位我們請劉裕偉副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4969.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4996.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
主席還有各位委員各位先進 大家好首先我非常榮幸能夠參加這次公聽會為這個社會的正義的貢獻盡一些微薄的力量那這次主要探討是有關於286條的修正目的主要是要回歸民意那參考諸如這個328條第三項還有347條第二項的這個立法例將這些罪以加重結果犯的形態在刑法設計上面有死刑的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4997.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5015.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
借鏡來提升第286條同樣具有加重結果犯的形態想要將他的刑事制裁提高到最高可以處於死刑的這種設計首先在立法目的上面是呼籲民意主要促進兒少的身心健康發展以及相關的這個權益的維護在這邊表達肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5015.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5043.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
但在設計上那邊的部分我則表達尊重事實上這個部分的條文已經經過疊進的立法最近一次在2024年7月的時候有做一些修正那可以看得出來國人對於這個兒少的關心跟重視但是我所思考的地方是如果單純只是提高刑法或提升刑法的目的是在這個處以死刑的部分而忽略了行為的太陽是否能夠真正達到有效威嚇的預防目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5043.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5063.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
以及是否能夠繼續遏止這種類案的再生以及會不會有罰得越重而構成要件的審查密度也越高而限於罰得重但罰不到的窘境所以今天參考今天的提綱總共其實就分為這三個部分第一個是有關加重處罰第二個是有關不得假釋以及兒少的程序保障問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5064.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5089.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以我也認為應該就行事立法層面行事司法層面跟行事執行層面的部分來分別對應這幾個綱目的部分那在行事立法的部分我是針對加重處罰的部分的設計做一些建議還有幾點提醒在行事司法的部分則針對兒少程序保障的部分做一些回應在行事執行的部分我針對不得假釋的部分提出個人的看法在這邊提出個人的淺見首先我們先看一下行事立法層面的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5091.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5111.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
在刑事立法的層面的部分我們可以看到刑法286條第一項是屬於加重結果犯的情況那可是我們看一下加重結果犯在學理上面的這個組成基本上他是必須出一個基本行為這個基本行為按照286條就是針對未滿18歲的課體要施以凌虐或他法足以 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5112.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5133.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
妨礙其身心健全及發育的行為也就是必須出於故意而且必須導致構成要件以外的加重結果這個加重結果就因而致人於死或致重傷的一個情形是過失所導致的才符合刑法第17條的這種組成的定義也就是換句話說必須有一種基本行為也就是故意然後最後的結果會是加重而是過失的這種形態 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5134.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5157.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那這個基本行為跟加重行為之間必須有一個特殊的這個危險性跟直接的關聯也就是目的就是為了要加重處罰那可是目前我們草案的這個設計的部分是類似採用這種財產犯罪的這種加重結果犯作為依據那我們要思考的是加重結果犯他還帶有過失的成分就要論死那沒有過失的純粹故意的犯罪卻沒有論死的設計又該如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5160.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5172.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以在這個時候刑法的均衡性是不是可以做一個思考因此在這個地方我在思考的地方就是說可不可以我們透過直接以虐童故意犯的角度來去做這樣的思維的一個調整因此從構成要件的行為太陽可能會隨著網路科技社會變遷個案的這個所謂的差異而翻新或多變 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5181.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5187.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
是否我們可以仿諸比如說刑法22302條之一32139條之四的方式採取加重構成要件要素的方式增列第286條之一第一項加重妨礙未成年發育罪並處罰未睡犯並且就範第286第1、2項由死人重傷或死人受死亡者增列第二項然後仿照刑法332條第二項334第二項348第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5209.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5234.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
採刑事結果犯的方式再將法律效果提升為死刑這個部分或許能夠可以提綱有關於有違反公正公約六條二項情節最重大之罪的爭議使虐童犯罪能夠予以層級化然後必符罪行相當的原則這個修正的建議的部分我把它強烈在這個現在PPT的這個一些這個設計上面雖然不是非常周延但可以供各位這個市長們可以做一些這個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5236.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5255.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那第二個部分我們在探討是有關刑事司法面的問題在這地方我分別從論罪、量刑及兒少訴訟程序保障方面三個角度來去做相關的探討第一個首先我們先看你虐罪的部分是在刑法第十條第七項有立法定義但並沒有在條文中有要求說要有持續性 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5256.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5284.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以在解釋上是不是以持續性為必要呢在這個地方實務見解有採取肯定說的比如說像最高法院11台上4274也有採取否定說的比如說最高法院109年的台上353號那如果假設行為人都已經恃以故意了對於未滿18歲的客體施以凌虐可否視同為慢性殺人或準殺人而施以第刑法271條同樣的法律效果這也是刑事司法在認識用法上可以參考的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5285.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5308.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
如果我們今天才否定所有的見解那這個地方也就是不以持續性為要件的話或者是有人用這個短期抗變的方式來鑽這個要件的漏洞這時候我們也可以參考一下像這個2024年新修正的校園霸凌防治準則第71條它就有鑒有準霸凌的設計就是特別針對這種鑽要件漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5309.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5325.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
沒有以持續性為要件然後採取短期抗辯的一個做法可以解決短時間但高強度同樣構成霸凌的認定所以或許我們可以在刑法第十條第七項裡面去設計有關於準凌虐的部分以針周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5326.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5336.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那在量刑的部分我們可以看到很多專家學者都有提到有關於兒權法就是兒童及少年福利權益保障法的部分它有加重期刑的一些相關的規定所以在這個地方我們可以看得到是不是跟原本的286條第五項未滿7歲這個部分加重二分之一有跌床計號的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5347.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5376.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
在這地方曾經在討論有關刑法227的時候最高法院有曾經統一見解過但是我個人認為是不是我們可以再次統一見解類似的虐童案件可不可以都回歸到兒圈法112條加重其刑並且修正不受刑法第65條第一項無期徒刑不可以加重的規定使案件適當的這個用兒圈法加重其刑的時候可以加重處以死刑這是針對所有的這個涉及兒少的這個刑事案件做整體跟通盤性的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5378.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5402.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
那接下來我要做一個提醒就是如果假設今天刑法提升到死刑有沒有可能到英雄無用武之地的這個狀況也就是我們當刑法我們發現它的法律效果越強的時候連帶的構成要件也將審查的越縝密越縝密的結果就可能造成罰得重但未必罰得到的情況因此修正刑法第286條提升為死刑的時候也要考慮這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5405.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5422.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
而且更重要的是如果行為人剛好又是未滿18歲或是未滿80歲以上觸犯286條的時候不得處死刑或無期徒刑在在刑法63條有規定或者是刑法第19條有一項二項的行為刑是行為人的時候如果他的精神抗辯成立了即便 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5423.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5440.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
法定刑事死刑在面對兩公約施行的時候也不可以宣告或執行甚至於在審刑時候是正常的那審判的時候或審判後才陷入精神狀況這個情形也是不可以執行這個在最高法院102年的台商是4289以後這個部分問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5441.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5456.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
最後即便進入了宣判的關卡這個時候又會再陷入113年宣判之八號程序條件上的一些限制這個部分是做一個這方面的一個提醒那第三個有關兒少訴訟的權益保障方面的部分我們考量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5457.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5462.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
因為同案的這個被害人都很輕如果保障訴訟上的權益的部分我們可以參考到額選法一二條有關於這個主管機關獨立上訴的問題但是我們也可以思考可不可以針對主管機關可以獨立提起上訴等救濟的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5472.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5488.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
或許現在《刑事訴訟法》國民法官廣告兒少事法的部分可以藉由這個設計的部分去定位這個所謂的司法社工的這個機制讓司法社工能夠全程參與陳述意見甚至會兒少被害人獨立提起告訴或提起上訴等救濟的一個錯誤來強化兒少的這個訴訟的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5492.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5512.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
第三個部分是有關於刑事執行的部分我們可以從監獄行刑法第一條可以看得到監獄主要是強調的是教化跟復歸也就是現在的監獄行刑法的部分是強調教大於管管大於官所凸顯的問題是對於不同殺人罪職的虐待兒童犯罪如果採的是絕對 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5514.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5532.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
也就是完全不得假釋那怎麼樣讓這些人在監獄中有對應的教化措施這是第一點第二點的部分是為了減輕獄政管理的負荷跟社會成本世界各個國家無不使用前後門並進的策略來減少監禁的人口那假釋向來是各國紓解 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5534.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5540.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個監獄擁擠的後門策略如果採取是絕對不得假釋的設計這意味著在立法上面阻卻了前門同時關閉了後門這個社會成本可能也是全民必須所共同負擔的那如果我們採取相對不得假釋就是負條件不得假釋的部分在這個時候我認為應該要善用以及重視長期被冷漠的保安處分機制比如說擴大強制治療監護處分以及保護管束等保安處分使用的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5561.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5569.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
甚至不排除這個所謂的保安處分的種類像增訂行後強制心理治療或實質的社區監控的處分並使保安處分結合社會政策來適時發揮最大的功效最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5573.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5597.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
我要說明的是這個所有的案件裡面我們的社會修復其實做得不好我認為說誠如像德國刑法學者李斯特所講的最好的社會爭執就是最好形式的分子應該減少這個所謂的法律的不安定性所造成帶來的道德恐慌也應該重視社會安全網絡的周延性而不是想一做一的應急也許在本案過後有關於兒少福利法案的配套也應該閒續接力來進行檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5599.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5628.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這也是一個值得思考的方向以上是個人本師對於這個議案的意見提請指教 謝謝好 謝謝劉教授那剛剛那個教授對於法制的部分那也要麻煩法務部能夠參考尤其是對於範議那是否能夠變更現有框架的問題剛剛劉教授我覺得他說得非常的精闢那麻煩法務部就這個部分能夠去參考一下尤其是對於這個主觀範議是不是我們只能把它限縮在 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5630.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5650.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
過失 或是我們可以把它調整到翻譯的部分能不能朝向故意的部分去思考我覺得這是一個很好的啟發點 謝謝下一位我們請李女士因為她時間上面必須調整往前所以我們做順序上面的調整 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5659.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5686.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
大家好在座的各位先打委員主席大家好我是凱凱網路爸媽群的發言人李祐群那同時也是510凱道護兒集會行動的召集人那主席因為我們有另外兩位媽媽可以一起上台聲援嗎好因為那個之前我印象中在 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5689.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5704.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
對於我們立法院秘書長那一次好像我們的公聽會民進黨的專家證人就站在後面兩位律師我印象中是這樣所以有潛力好那可以我這邊同意謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5727.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5752.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
我這邊說明一下 因為之前在針對我們的秘書長 立法院秘書長那次公聽會就是委員是有讓兩位律師就直接站在後方所以我想說有潛力我們立法院我們其實是很講求過往的慣例及潛力的那既然過去有 所以我們今天也予以同意我這邊說明原因好 繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5753.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5759.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝主席就我以下的問題希望官員等會兒可以給予回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5761.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5788.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那非常感謝原本我們13萬人呢原本在網路上的連署法務部這邊原本是不採納最後改口為演藝中那就剛剛在座各位賢達在發言呢我也聽到了也感受到大家也都因為凱凱案的關係大家都盡自己的專業想要為 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5790.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5807.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
為孩子們做一點 做一點努力那就法務部這邊的新聞稿內容有提到那我想請問我們法務部這裡具體修正草案何時會提出是否有明確的期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5811.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5834.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那我們呢終究還是要回歸到我們的憲法裡面的規定因為對於孩子呢兒虐案一直都是輕判到目前為止我們只看到劉采萱這兩位保姆他們算是史有史以來最高的刑度到無期徒刑但是孩子他們是沒有任何自救能力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5835.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5852.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
所以對於這樣子的刑度我們真的覺得還是太輕了那明明我們沒有廢除死刑我們不太能理解為什麼法官始終不願不願使用他們自己的裁量權能夠判到死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5853.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5876.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們不追求我們沒有要求要唯一實行因為過去的往例其實是帶給我們社會很沉重的代價所以我們並沒有要求唯一實行而是要希望說法官和司法院這邊能夠去看清楚像加拿大這邊的做法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5878.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5902.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
他们认为孩子他们没有任何自救能力也不会平白无故的自己死去只有大人的作为与不作为才会造成他们死亡的结果所以加拿大边这边对对于孽童凌虐孩子致死他们是采取的采取的是是以死刑来做处理那我们也借鉴 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5904.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5931.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
借鉴这个南韩南韩呢有个证人案也是凌虐致死的案子是这样的是养父母把这个一岁四个月大的证人凌虐到死那也因此去促成了南韩政府进行的修法这个虐待儿童犯罪处罚特别法也简称为证人法 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5932.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5951.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那就可以看得到虐殺幼童他們的刑度拉高到處死刑因此我們的訴求才會去提到說希望能夠將這刑度拉高到死刑但由於我們台灣的法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5953.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5969.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
这边的做法法律相关的做法都会有沿用判决判例的这样子的习惯所以我们才会去提出希望能够征定刑法二七一之一条虐杀幼童罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5971.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5991.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
目的這是一個宣示性的法條條項款目裡面我們故意拉到條這個層級是希望能夠作為提醒之用那如果說因為畢竟還是需要在在刑法第286條做修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5993.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6022.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那后续我们也希望能够286条他的刑度最低刑度能够10年有期徒刑调高到20年有期徒刑以上因为我们实在不想要再看到下一个凯凯我们台湾已经少子化多年了我们真的没有多少孩子能够在这样子被虐死了看到保护服务司的统计数字 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6023.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6032.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
近三年六十八個孩子被虐死我們還有多少孩子可以這樣子被淋虐到死 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6040.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6060.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那我们知道我们有去了解其实是保护服务师这方面都在做这种儿少保护的工作但是他的成绩过低导致他的权限以及他公文程序整个跑下来耗费的时间其实过长 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6063.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6070.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以我們希望拉高層級強化熱跨部會跨機關的合作橫向的整合 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6072.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6095.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那我們會訴求提高拉高到那個部的層級原因是因為如果他是設立為兒童署署的層級我們的兒少權益一向很弱勢如果是放在署的層級他終究資源跟經費還是要再跟其他的署去做瓜分所以我們會希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6103.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6118.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
難保哪一天不會因為資源或者經費的短缺又再一次發生漏接孩子的慘劇所以我們才會希望拉高這個兒少保護專責單位的層級拉高到部的層級另外我們提出訪視助理員制度希望一來可以來去解決社工人手不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6134.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6141.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
來去歧視社工的訪視量針對每個學齡前的幼童來進行預防性的訪視 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6147.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6165.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那這裡頭就會需要有兒少保護專責的醫師來進行進行耳內辨識的耳內辨識的教育訓練對於檢警對於社工對於社政甚至教育方面來去做相關的耳內辨識的教育訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6168.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6185.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那擴編社工人力希望衛福部這邊能夠去調整將人額制把它放寬讓社工的人力能夠增加來提高兒女處理的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6188.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6209.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
另外第六个我们要破除重大儿孽通报机制的漏息我们台湾现在重大儿孽通报机制这个重大儿孽孩子其实已经是到快断气的状态才要进行紧急安置所以变成这个制度上是默许儿童再送回去继续受孽 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6211.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6236.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
其实孩子走到司法甚至走到医疗很多绝大多数是非死即残的状态所以我们才会希望能够有建立一个在前端抢救孩子的机制那保护服务师其实是非常的努力今天卫福部次长部长及的长官没有到场我们其实感到有点难过 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6237.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6249.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為師長未必能夠有多大的決定權那希望今天衛福部出席這個長官能夠將我們的訴求我們的心聲帶回去給衛福部的長官那由於之前有委員在他的臉書黃委員在他臉書上有提到行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6267.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6289.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
在總諮詢的時候有提出預計5月6月會提出的具體的建議案就是兒少專責單位的具體建議案我想請衛福部長官能夠給我們回覆這個專責單位具體建議案進度是為何是否能夠在6月底告訴我們這個最後的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6295.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6301.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
主席再給我一點時間謝謝那我們期望這個專責單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6304.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6327.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
能够安排在12月24号进行揭牌仪式因为这是凯凯这个孩子两周年的忌日他是希望能够换未来所有孩子平平安安长大我希望卫福部长官这边能够含附给我们给我们一定的承诺可以吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6330.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6337.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
最後請大家一起所有民眾一起持續兼顧政府因為我們民眾才是民主社會的主人謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6340.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6361.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那剛剛發言人所說的部分我麻煩衛福部可以在一週內回覆給發言人那也麻煩一份給我的辦公室那另外剛剛發言人所提到的韓國的法制那這部分再麻煩司法院以及法務部能夠參考那下一位我們請麥玉珍委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6378.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6401.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
謝謝主席各位先進 各位親愛的家人 大家早安我們今日集在這裡就僅僅為了一場法律條文修訂的討論而是為了回應社會上一個媽媽心目中寶貝的生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6405.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6425.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
以及超過13萬公民這個不只是公民是13萬的家庭的痛在台灣3歲以下的兒童受逆案件逐年增加自從2019年至2023年 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6430.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6454.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
已經增幅高達18.5%這些不只是冰冷的數據而是無數無誅的孩子的悲劇我們必須思考當一個社會無法用法律來保護最脆弱的成員這個社會的正義就在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6455.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6484.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們要求努力徵定逆同制死罪並在刑度上設立有明確上限是最低底限的最重的處死刑最低不得是假釋之無期徒刑並非趨於明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6486.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6509.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個非情緒宣示而是基於一個理性法律系統對極端惡行因回應的必要補充從刑法的制度脈絡來看目前對於非肆意殺人但造成死亡犯罪例如 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6510.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6538.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
刑法第328條第三項的強盜致死罪即使無殺人犯意據能依法判處此刑面對以持續系統性虐待方式導致優而死亡的案件更應有對等的刑責機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6541.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6560.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
比例原則並不是一套的記載化的組結標準而是一種社會共識與法律價值之間的 橫貧的工具當社會普遍認為 利同致死之類犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6561.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6586.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
其殘酷性與不可逆性的超越了社會可忍受的道德底線當人民要求國家應該用最嚴厲的手段防止未來同樣的憾事重演這本身就是比例原則最核心的思維基本 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6587.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6611.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
使刑法與犯罪的實質惡性被害人的脆弱性相對稱並回應社會對正義的呼聲在此狀況下入法務部就一句與比例原則不符就拒絕納入討論不僅是13萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6618.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6642.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
人連署還侵蝕了13萬的家庭更是對法律進一步的機制的背景法務部作為國家形式的政策組織機關應應民意的對話而非依偎的固守法條的表面 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6643.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6670.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
否則社會將繼續懷疑法務法律居然是為誰來而設是否只保護施害者的程序權利卻永遠無法為受害者發聲我們今天所倡議的是希望通過明確這主力的立法的信號告訴社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6672.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6695.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
對於極端沒有人性的溺兒的行為國家不會容忍司法不會冷漠我們必須建立一道制度最後的防線讓這些砸害人知道溺殺無辜的幼兒不是會僅僅是一場幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6699.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6720.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
行其可以赎罪的恶行而是对人性底线的挑战必须最严厉的刑法应对并立法并不是为了保护而是为了让社会记住这条法稍抵了生命少子化 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6728.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6755.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
孩子的生命是媽媽心目中的寶貝不只新聞的標誌更不是法治進步的引路燈今天我們不是不只是修修改法律我們要重建了社會對司法爭議的信任讓人民知道生命的寶貝讓大家知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6756.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6778.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
孩子是媽媽心目中的寶貝我們13萬的家庭呼應我們法務部呼應我們政府要重視我們一起努力全國的媽媽加油謝謝謝謝麥委員那下一位我們請蔡主任檢察官發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6790.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6811.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
朝委與會的各位長官然後以及各位先進大家好我是桃園地檢署蔡佩珊那很榮幸受邀到這邊來表達有機會表達可以第一線講官的想法那以下僅為個人的意見不代表機關的立場那因為時間有限就是直接進入今天討論的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6813.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6832.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
第一個議題有關於虐殺兒童的相關刑責法制有沒有測定之處在討論這個議題之前我們必須要先設立一個前提事實是如果假官在調查之後認為已經涉犯殺人罪這時候假官起訴的條文應該會是刑法271條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6836.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6854.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
以及如果被殺害的是兒童那會依照兒童及少年福利與權益保障法來加重其刑的起訴那如果說這時候依照客觀的事證沒有辦法直接證明這個部分是具備殺人的故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6855.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6882.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那殺人跟所謂的加重結果犯的差異點在於如果今天一個A想要殺B他的目標就是他拿著一把槍對他射擊那麼這個就是一個殺人的直接故意但如果今天是對於一個孩子可能給他食不飽每天讓他沒有吃飽然後沒有睡好用凌虐的方式持續地造成他的死亡結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6884.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6900.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這時候未必就會構成一個殺人的情況那在不同的情形之下適用的法律規定本來就不一樣如果本來就已經構成殺人的情形這時候依照刑法271條本來就已經有一個死刑的法定刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6901.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6929.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那再來這一次條文參考的是刑法三二八條第三項前段有關於犯強盜罪因而致人於死處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑的這個條文喔那比照條文應該是刑法二八六條的第三項那大家不能忽視的一件事是喔刑法三二八條第三項的制定其實它早在民國二十四年一月一號就已經制定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6930.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6958.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
當時的法定刑規定是但強盜罪因而致人於死者是處四刑或者是無期徒刑而在九十一年一月三十日進行修正增加了十年以上有期徒刑的選項那大家都知道我國已經把兩公約已經徹底的入國法化那總統也在九十八年公佈兩公約的施行法並且在九十八年的十二月十號正式施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6960.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6985.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
在兩公約裡面的條文以及後續的公正公約第36號的一般性意見第34點的點次裡面其實有明白的揭示締約國不得在批准公約時或其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑罪他的意思是指什麼呢指的就是如果在兩公約內國法化的當下這個法定刑是有死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6986.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7003.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那麼我們本來就可以依照這樣的規定逐步的進行對此的討論但如果說在兩國約內國法化的當時這樣的條文本身並沒有一個死刑的選項那我們是不是可以再增列死刑的判死刑的刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7004.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7030.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這樣子應該還是要審慎的考量當然也有一些專家學者可能會討論說一般性意見是不是能夠拘束相關的機關但這個部分我們不能忽視再來有關於公正公約第六條的第二項剛討論的是一個程序上的問題接下來進到公正公約第六條第二項它其實明白的皆是非犯情節最重大之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7031.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7045.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
而且依照犯罪史有效並且與公約規定以及防止跟懲治殘害人群罪公約不得抵觸的法律不得科除死刑那什麼叫做非犯情節最重大之罪呢在 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7046.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7074.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
憲法法庭113年 憲判自第8號他的理由上面有提出來包括直接故意 概括故意 跟則一故意直接故意我剛剛有舉例做過說明那所謂的概括故意是什麼意思呢意思就是 今天有一個A他想要把手榴彈丟在一個房子裡面他知道他把手榴彈丟進這個房間裡面在房間裡面的人可能會死 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7074.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7096.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
可是死的是誰他不在乎這叫概括故意但如果今天這個某A他知道房子裡面有B或C在裡面我把手榴彈丟進去之後可能會造成B或C其中一個人死亡的結果或兩個人死亡的結果而這件事情也不違反我的本意那麼這時候A有可能的他就是一個擇一故意的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7098.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7118.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那再來第二個部分有關於無期徒刑得不得假釋這個議題其實無期徒刑不得假釋等同就是終身監禁也就是永久與外界隔離那這個部分跟現行的監獄處獄的方向其實是完全不同的目前監獄處獄的方向是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7120.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7142.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
收容人有機會可以復歸社會有機會因為教化的功能而最後回到社會那如果說今天我們的整個監獄的功能已經走向他要終身監禁那麼要考量的反而就是怎麼樣在監所裡面讓這個受刑人終老終生這個部分的規劃可能要重新的再做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7145.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7163.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那另外假釋的目的其實是鼓勵受刑人的改過之心給予受刑人提前出獄重返自由社會以利他更生的機會那如果說我們單獨設定滅統案件這個部分而不能假釋有可能會有違反平等原則的議題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7165.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7187.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
那最後有關於被害人參與刑事訴訟部分呢我的意見是比較開放的就是任何有機會讓被害人的家屬被害人的本人能夠有機會在法庭上表達意見以及他們的立場的機會這個部分我都是認同的那最後最後我想要利用這個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7188.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7205.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
作為第一線的檢察官我特別想要談的就是說在兩公約內國法化的現在要不要整理死刑我們確實要慎重以待這也是為什麼大家要齊聚一堂坐在這裡的原因那憲判制第八號其實也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7206.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7225.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所謂的死刑作為最重本性的部分他僅得適用於個案犯罪情節最嚴重而且刑事程序符合憲法最嚴密的正當法律程序的要求但同時他也在主文的第六項這邊提到需要和議庭法官的一致決這是什麼意思呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7226.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7249.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
自從112年1月1號國民法官法施行之後現在只要故意致人於死的案件一定是進到國民法官的法庭進行審理喔那國民法官法針對這個部分判處死刑原本在第83條第三項有關於苛刑的評議在包含國民法官跟法官雙方意見都要過半數的意見決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7250.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7277.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
但死刑的科處因為是剝奪一個人的生命權這個部分必須要慎重以待當時立法者就已經選擇了要包含國民法官跟法官雙方意見在內達三分之二以上的同意不得為之意思就是說今天如果是一位職業法官加上五位國民法官認為要判處死刑可不可以判處死刑 可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7277.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7305.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
但如果今天是兩位執業法官四位國民法官認為要判處死刑可不可以可以今天如果是三位執業法官跟三位國民法官認為要判處死刑可不可以可以但是大法官這一次不好意思憲法法庭這一次在113年憲判第八號主文第六號所謂的合議庭法官一致決的意思就是刑事庭法官必須要三位都贊同死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7306.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7333.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這時候才有辦法判決死刑意思就是假官在偵查犯罪認為構成所謂的故意殺人罪而提起公訴我們在整個認定的過程認為屬於情節最嚴重之罪認為應該判處死刑然而只是單純在刑事庭的法官欠缺一人的同意之下即便達到國民法官法83條第三項的規定仍然無法判處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7334.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7363.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個部分我舉一個比較極端的例子有可能有可能是國民法官的六位都願意判處死刑職業法官的兩位也願意判處死刑但唯獨就是一位刑事庭的法官他認為沒辦法判處死刑這時候我們還是不能判處死刑在憲判自主文第六項的情形喔那這個也讓與會先進想一件事情喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7363.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7389.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這是不是跟我們一開始導入國民法官法希望讓民意進入法庭的這個目的有所焊隔何義廷法官的一致決已經實質限縮了死刑宣告的範圍所以縱使我們今天在談論什麼樣條文要針對刑法要針對法定刑要針對死刑可是既然已經實質限縮死刑宣告的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7390.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7405.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那這個部分到底是所謂的司法主席不好意思再給我一點時間這部分到底是一種司法的造法嗎司法造法的前提必須是有一個漏洞要去填補所謂的填補漏洞就是例如 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7406.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7431.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
新北市衛生局他的女僱員跳樓的案件當時他已經在人事處的人員裡面去陳述了這部分法庭以外的陳述在目前刑事訴訟法的傳聞法則例外沒有規定這時候法院去准用傳聞法則例外這叫做補漏 這叫司法造法但現行的情形是這部分是否有漏洞呢這部分如果沒有漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7432.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7456.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那這個樣的司法造法是不是已經逾越原本的司法權是不是有逾越權利分立原則的疑慮呢最後我想要引用加拿大安大略法醫辦公室那邊的一個想法他們說我們必須要保護我們必須要為死者發聲才有辦法保護現在生存的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7457.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7479.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那與會的各位先進我們現在正在做這樣的事情喔那我是希望說經過這次的討論那我們也必須要嚴正的面對113年度憲判制第八號對於程序上以及未來可能造成的影響以及拘束喔 以上謝謝好 謝謝蔡警官那下一位我們請蕭理事長來 請蕭理事長發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7499.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7522.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
趙偉 各位專家學者各位關心虐童刑責法制相關議題的各位夥伴大家早安 大家好我必須先說明我真的不算什麼專家學者我是全國家長團體聯盟的理事長代表的是一般的家長那 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7525.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7545.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
就我們一般民眾非法律人而言今天從相關的一些主管機關的報告還有我們專家學者所提的一些報告那對於比如說像有提到違反跟其他罪行的比例原則或平等原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7547.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7571.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
這樣的問題還有包括比如說剛剛有提到說沒有自救者沒有自救能力者並不只兒童那如果今天就以沒自救者只單純就兒童的部分去修這個法的話可能也會有剛剛所提的一些比例原則平等原則的問題那剛剛也提到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7573.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7592.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
唯一死刑不符合司法裁量權的問題那也提到了是否要設唯一死刑是否是最嚴重犯罪的問題那剛剛也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7595.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7623.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
有很多可能是直接故意或是間接故意或是概括故意或是責一故意這樣的因素所以會有不同的刑法的考量那這些對我們家長來講是一串的一堆的法律名詞但是就我們情感面而言 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7627.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7652.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我們所提到的所謂故意凌虐且殺害兒童跟凌虐致兒童死亡我想如果用白話講就是一個是故意本來就是要凌虐兒童就是要死啊那另外一個只是他凌虐他之後可能不是故意要他死但是他死了但是就情感面而言 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7654.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7681.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
今天你把一個兒童長期的凌虐到死這樣的一個嚴重程度我就剛剛講的就情感面而言他真的沒有比故意凌虐且殺害兒童嚴重嗎那他是不是我們剛剛所談的所謂的最嚴重犯罪這個層面那他是不是屬於是屬於哪一種故意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7682.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7709.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
致死的一個模式我想這些是我們在法律層面要去考量的一些問題但是我要呼籲的是我們今天就我們今天民眾的角度家長的角度凌虐致兒童死亡真的不比故意凌虐殺害兒童嚴重嗎他應該受到的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7712.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7738.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
不應該是唯一死刑或者不得假釋嗎或許剛剛我們也有提到說我們剛剛有家長代表也提到說我們並不追求一定要唯一死刑但是怎麼去加重其刑我想相關的一些法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7740.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7762.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
後續我想需要更多專家學者還有我們相關主管機關的進一步的研究那就我收到的資料裡面有我們司法部法務部跟衛福部的報告裡面就衛福部的報告而言我在裡面所看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7764.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7790.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
大概我只看到一句重點就提到說本部將配合法務部凝聚共事延商處理其他大概是在談預防的部分我覺得跟今天的主題也沒有完全的相關那整個內容給我感覺是非常空洞唯一我看到的就是我剛剛講的要配合法務部凝聚共事延商處理那我再去看法務部給的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7791.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7818.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我大概看到最多的大概就是要通盤檢討廣納各界意見競速評估及研議修法一樣我看不到明確的內容所以我這邊再一次呼籲就是我們的主管機關我們希望就剛剛前面其他專家學者所提就這個修法的部分是不是給我們一個明確的期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7820.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7840.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
然後什麼時候可以提出草案什麼時候可以進立法院什麼時候可以三讀通過可以給我們一個很明確的期程這是我們家長所想要看到的那另外今天的一個主題提到被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7841.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7863.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
參與刑事訴訟的時候是否應該有獨立上訴權、結論權、證據調查申請權這些相關的包括民事訴訟法、國民法官法、少年事件處理法這些保障被害人權益的一些相關的議題在這邊我們要表達站在家長立場我們支持這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7865.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7890.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我們認為被害人應該要有獨立上訴權、結論權跟證據調查申請權這個部分我們也予以支持那最後我再一次呼籲我們所有的主管機關還有拜託我們所有的專家學者針對這個議題給予我們所有的民眾、家長在情感上 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7892.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7911.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
應該如何加重期刑然後如何讓這樣的一個殘暴的人能夠付出應有的代價希望我們在近期內可以得到很明確的一個期懲跟恢復以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7919.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7946.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好 謝謝 那法務部的法務部要麻煩你們要我請問一下剛剛理事長所提到的期程那請問一下法務部這邊有沒有辦法現在告訴我們大概期程是怎麼樣我們預計三個月之內提出到行政院好 那這樣子我想說在場大家都聽到那理事長也知道就是法務部說三個月內提出來好 謝謝那接下來我們請誰要代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7947.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7947.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那請吳宗憲委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7966.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7993.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
好我想今天我們排這個我排這個公聽會主要就是社會上面孽兒的事件越來越高那我自己在擔任警察官的時候我也非常痛恨這種對於未成年的幼童或者是對於老人或是對於有一些智障 身障的人你去欺負他們尤其是手腳健全的人去欺負一些手無縛肌之類的人像這種我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7995.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8006.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
從正義的角度去思考 從法治的角度去思考對這些人都完全不值得去放過他們我們應該在法治上面能夠給他們最大的懲罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8009.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8028.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那我想我們從數據上面來看其實從19年到2023年這一段時間我們新生兒的人數一直在下降但是我們對於虐童的部分尤其是未滿3歲的幼兒的虐待這個反而數據是往上提升的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8028.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8047.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那你能想像說對一個小孩子他可能連燙是什麼都搞不清楚的情況下那你卻對他虐待你卻拿東西去燙他等等的這個作為有時候我們都難以想像那我想在座非常多人都是為人父母啊那我們小朋友小時候他打個噴嚏咳嗽個兩聲我們都擔心得要命 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8051.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8061.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那你能想像如果說今天他是在外面受到有某些人對他去施以身體上面凌虐或精神上面的凌虐你身為一個父母你是什麼樣的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8062.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8090.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
那更何況我們講人不獨子其子啊每個小孩都是我們要去愛護不管他是誰的小孩那李韻大同篇就有跟我們講過這句話所以我們對於每一個小孩不管他是誰的小孩我們都要盡全力去保護他我想這是我們每一個身為成年人我們的義務不管男女不管你今天的想法國籍黨派等等的我們就是要保護這些未成年人更何況啊以我自己第一線的司法實務經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8092.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8120.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
黑數一定更多有更多的小朋友他不知道怎麼樣去表達或是很多父母他不知道怎麼樣去求爭取這些救援所以有更多的犯罪黑數我們沒看到那在現有已經曝光的事情來看就有這麼多的案子這麼多讓我們那種不忍心再看下去的事情所以我想說我們大家都身為爸爸媽媽我們很能夠知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8122.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8148.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
愛護小孩子的那種感覺很多時候我們甚至我看到小孩子發燒在那邊很難過一直在哭我都希望去承擔他的這個痛苦所以我常跟很多人講我說如果我有99條命的話我會願意為我兒子死100次這是每一個父母對小孩子的感覺那所以我覺得今天我在社會上面我們更要去保護這些小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8149.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8168.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那我想這次有關虐童案件的修法的連署那社會上面有13萬人那當然我個人是這樣子我覺得任何公共議題本來就會有正反不同的想法各種公共議題都是如此所以當各種公共議題大家提出來的時候是值得討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8169.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8186.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
尤其是專業的機關譬如說法務部 譬如說司法院像剛剛黃國昌委員說的絕對不能有專業的傲慢而是你必須停下腳步來聽聽人民的聲音那多溝通就我剛剛說的公共政策一定是有贊成有反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8187.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8216.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那這時候就是坐下來好好的溝通去找出一個平衡點或是最大的公約數那這時候我們就可以來去進行相關的修法而不是墨守成規而不是像法務部一開始就是拒絕跟外界溝通當然我知道後來部長有出來緩霞有出來說他會再研議嘛那部長當然後來有做這樣的想法但是一開始的那個的反應其實是讓非常多的社會團體以及非常多的父母 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8217.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8236.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
很不滿無法接受我想還是要麻煩法務部及司法院能夠拜託知道這個點不能有專業的傲慢真的要聽聽外界在想什麼更何況法律是解決社會問題的一個東西是我們人類生存在這個社會上面大家遵守的所以今天不要拿法律的設計怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8243.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8264.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
來強制要求人民你只能聽我們專業法律者對於法律的解釋我覺得這是不對的 絕對是不對的所以我還是在這邊以民意代表的身份我還是希望喊話我們的政府機關在面對這種極端惡行的情況下真的要給社會一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8267.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8292.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
因為司法已經是最後一道防線了我不可能要求每個人都有高尚的道德但是我至少可以卑微的要求大家守法吧至少可以卑微要求大家守法那訂出一個對於未成年人一些嬰幼兒能夠給他們保障的法律這不就是我們的責任嗎那如果說現在的政府一直在那邊說這個框架之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8294.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8321.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我認為說這虐童虐待致死後面那個致死是過失致死他不是有殺人的故意你一直存在這個框架之下那你怎麼跟人民去溝通更何況我國還有刑法328條第三項的規範不是毫無這樣子的司法設計的例子所以我還是蠻希望說政府不要站在人民的對立面你聽聽人民在想什麼再怎麼樣人民是最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8322.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8328.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們是民主國家所以請法務部 請司法院還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8329.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8355.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
注意這個點那對於這次的修法 我覺得我有幾個角度 我想提供來給大家參考我覺得第一個就是說 我剛剛提到 一再三提到的這個社會共識 它會隨著時間在變化請大家一定要注意 所有的東西不是一成不變所有的法治也都是在看 怎麼樣去適合這個社會上面的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8356.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8380.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
這個非常的重要那第二個我要提到的就是我剛剛講了刑法328條第三項已經有財產犯罪的強盜致死的時候的死刑規範並不是我國的法治 毫無這樣子的規定所以當有這樣子的規範存在的時候然後你又跟我講說現行法治不行 比例原則不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8382.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8406.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那再怎麼樣 凌虐他還是對於生命身體法義耶那你財產法義都可以做這樣的規範了那為什麼保護密度要更高的生命身體法義你卻認為不需要這樣規範我覺得這個就完全不合理這也不是法律的基本概念那我覺得很多時候我們看犯罪的情節輕重也不是說只看主觀犯意啦你也要看被害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8407.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8432.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
他們的狀況是怎麼樣小朋友他毫無反擊之力啊他甚至連自己被凌虐被侵害他都搞不清楚他以為這就是人生因為他才小他什麼都不懂所以更需要我們知道我們懂的人下去用力的保護他那剛剛其實理事長以及那個劉教授教育理事長劉教授都有提到未必故意這個概念我也是想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8435.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8462.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為畢竟我們現在已經是廢止那個判例的制度了嘛那我們都是尊重每一個個案法官檢察官的獨立判斷但是至少在教育訓練的時候在教育訓練的時候是不是可以把這個概念能夠告訴全國的法官檢察官很多時候是不是他可能他是符合未必故意的這個邏輯而不是一律就是凌虐致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8464.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8487.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
因為你今天跟一般我們刑法上面傷害制止有一點不太一樣很多時候你對成年人的傷害這個成年人他已經是一個發育完全身體的那個抵抗力等等的都是發育完全的他跟一個小朋友不一樣啊小朋友甚至連自己受傷要打電話叫救護車求救他也不會那這個時候是不是你有可以去思考到未必故意的這個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8490.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8510.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
而選擇的是271條所以這個是我們值得我們去思考的一個點但是因為我們不可能干涉個案所以這個可以落實在日常的教育訓練裡面在告訴法官檢察官你在審理案件的時候其實你還有另外一個思考的模式因為未必故意它是我國的法律制度的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8511.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8525.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
它是我國存在的東西所考的過司法官考試人他一定懂我在講什麼那師父可以在教育訓練裡面放入這個概念他今天他等同於殺人罪的喔他不是一個凌虐後的過失致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8527.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8544.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以這兩個東西我想說還是必須要呼籲我們的政府機關能夠思考一下這個地方因為很多時候你要正視人民的聲音你要換位去思考而不是很多事情你造成民怨的一直問題很多了然後才來這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8546.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8556.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
一堆麻煩 那我也蠻認同剛剛那個蔡佐恩檢察官他所提到的一個點也是我們現在社會一直迴避的一個點就是我們忘記告訴大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8557.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8582.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
為什麼 為什麼 像譬如說為什麼我這次會提出一個反對那個死刑一字決的這個公投為什麼會提出這個 其實就是因為那個一字決有問題嘛那像剛剛蔡主任檢察官他有提到一個點就是六個國民法官加兩個專業法官大家認為要判死刑結果會被一個專業法官認為不要判死刑而全盤推翻 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8583.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8607.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那這個也是我國現行制度的一個大問題那如果這樣子下去那也會像剛剛有專家學者說會不會我們立了一個法律一個死刑在那裡但是實務上面卻完全無法適用這個將來有可能會發生完全不可能有這樣的死刑判決的結果出現我想這個都是我們要去注意到的啦更何況FACE這個概念除了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8609.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8634.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那個執政黨黨綱之外他常也引用兩公約但兩公約對於這個何謂最嚴重之罪卻到現在也都沒有一個明確的說法所以我想我們點出了這些問題不管怎麼樣我覺得最終我的目的還是一個不管今天你的國籍為何你的性別為何你的政治傾向為何保護幼童 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8635.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8664.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
是我們的最大公約數一定我們要盡全力去做到所以當一個政府啊我們這個政府的社會福利制度等等無法保障未成年的小朋友這些幼童無端被殺死的時候你至少要確保這些行為人在做完這些壞事之後政府司法制度有辦法對它施以一個相當的刑度例如終身監禁或死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8665.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8694.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我覺得這個是有它存在的必要性所以今天我們還開這個公聽會我覺得這個公聽會也是我一直以來我從當立法委員以來我一直希望的就是保障弱勢因為我其實我很多次我公開講我說李韻大同篇的那幾句話影響我這輩子非常深我覺得啊你一定要做勞有所終壯有所用幼有所長關寡孤獨廢棄者皆有所養這個東西就是老中青 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8696.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8708.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
小孩子保護他讓他平安長大青壯年人讓他有工作老人讓他能夠安享晚年社會弱勢殘疾者我們要讓他能夠有好的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8709.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8736.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
幾千年前的人就告訴我們這個為什麼我們今天還做不到所以我一直很堅持在修法上面以及我做任何事情上面一定要圍繞著這個邏輯去轉所以我才會今天安排這個公聽會不然在很多法律制度都還需要修正的時候我們還是希望這個公聽會非常的重要要為小朋友發聲要為社會團體發聲這是我一直以來我的想法好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8746.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8775.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好 下一位我們請王理事長好 主席各位委員還有各位專家學者還有我們的官員大家好那我是國教行動聯盟理事長王漢陽那既然今天是回應民意當然我們今天也要帶著民意來這個現場去告訴大家到底民意目前現在的狀況是如何有點跳到 等一下喔好 等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8783.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8800.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
民意狀況是如何那這次案件非常嚴重的就是我們知道的凱凱虐童的致死案件其實根據所有的這些數據調查來當中其實108年到113年來每年平均快20個虐童致死的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8801.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8818.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
也是說這五年多來已經有103個虐童致死的案件但看到我們司法院目前的一個狀態的一個數據可以知道他在判刑當中有六罪是判無期徒刑到最高法院是九罪判無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8818.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8846.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
各位可以去知道有103件虐童案件平均每年20個虐童致死但刑期的狀況是如何大家可以知道再來凱凱案這一次的一個案件所有全國人民都在觀看這麼嚴重的一個情形但檢察官為何他沒有起訴到更嚴重的一個罪行而是往刑法286去走呢大家可以去思考一下因為在往這方面去走 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8847.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8858.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
很多地方在直接故意當中有一些相對的難度但從往286去走一直到宣判下來可以知道一件事情民意到底覺得這樣對還不對或夠還不夠就我們國教行動聯盟做的一個調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8863.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8889.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
在四天九十六個小時做一個快速調查報告接觸一萬七千八百多位民眾當中有九千零二十四份扣除掉重複IP有八千七百二十四份的有效問卷的數據高達四十八點八九可以顯示民眾持續到現在對於這個案情非常的熱也非常的在意但顯示第一個數據我們可以看到一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8890.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8904.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
就是92.1%就像我剛才說的認為刑法的罪行還是太重還是太輕所以難以克止目前的一個悲劇目前有8039位一致表達不滿意甚至在執行訪談問卷當中都一直說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8911.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8924.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
死刑的一個必要性因為他在這中間當中沒有滿足現在社會的期待就像我剛才講的一個罪刑刑罰當中大家可以去知道這是第一個數據第二個數據在我們這次問卷調查的數據當中89.2%明確的是支持無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8930.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8958.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
不得假釋的規定意思是說在這個當中是否有更有具有這些相關無期徒刑不得假釋的相關的一個可能性在這個我相信在這個現在社會大眾應該要認真來去探討這件事情在就我們意見書當中有將美國目前的實證案例調查出來虐童案件再犯率有15%所以各位可以去想到如果今天我們判無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8958.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8978.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
甚至我們剛才案的一個判例當中有六罪九罪無期徒刑的情形之下25年他就可以做假釋了在我們問卷調查也說明這件事情所以相對的刑期當中不夠之外也會覺得 蛤 怎麼就這樣假釋了呢而且15%的再犯率的情形之下這樣的一個假釋規定還有這樣的一個假釋狀況適不適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8982.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9010.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這是89.2%第三個數據告訴我們一件事情88.6%的是支持強制性的心理治療我們在講到的保安處分當中其實很少去什麼做一些明確的再犯風險評估所以既然有15%當中的一個再犯率那我們有沒有政府去做好明確的再犯風險評估呢或者強制性的做心理治療而放他出來呢如果沒有的情形之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9011.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9032.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我們可以知道這裡面數據大多數的10年有期徒刑不到5年可能就出來了喔那它的再販率依然是這麼高那我相信88.6%的民眾也很清楚知道這樣是不足的最後我們也再問到一個問題好 那重刑不足那是不是真的重刑就能完全的去把 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9032.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9053.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所有的那個讓那個虐童案去降低呢那其實70.9%的民眾也非常的聰明說不是只有靠重刑重刑是還不夠的還要什麼還要做一個預防所以其實認同重刑之外更要有家庭跟預防的機制在這一次的一個問卷當中96個小時有8724份問卷希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9058.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9062.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我們現在政府官員還有委員當中去重視在這個數據呈現的狀況以上是這次民調數據圖表的顯現那我們繼續往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9073.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9094.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那現行法治到底明顯有沒有不足呢就像我剛才在講到的依照這個問卷調查結果反映出明顯的刑期當中不足一包含說我們現在的286條的一個虐童致死罪10年以上的一個有期徒刑那最高加1 2分之1到15年那以司法院的一個判決當中我們就可以去看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9096.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9117.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
66罪是判10年有期徒刑到最高法院是80罪判有期徒刑那我們剛才講的數據103件虐童致死你只有看到80罪是什麼在最高法院當中是判10年有期徒刑更何況他很快就會出院了所以其實在這個制度上面我相信大家會有這樣的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9118.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9141.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
再來第二個對無期徒刑當中實務上平均緊扶17.9年他就可以假釋出獄了所以其實大家可以知道無期徒刑17.9年怎麼跟我想像的一個不一樣再來缺乏一個明文規範不得假釋也沒有強制治療跟保安處分所以現行制度有這幾個方面其實是明顯不足的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9144.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9168.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
在國際當中各個國家都有一些相關的包含美國的不得假釋的規定包含南韓也即將在討論不得假釋我相信台灣如果要是一個進步的國家勢必要更加速的要在領先各國當中去討論這件事情再來德國當中有終身監禁加保安監禁定期的評估加再犯的風險評估我相信這個是必要去做採納的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9171.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9200.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
好在我們的主張呢回到我們的主張第一個條件式的終身隔離勢必要去做考量第一個維持無期徒刑的一個什麼重刑杜絕孽童的一個再犯但服刑滿25年當中需要經過跨專業的團隊風險評估去評估他的再犯風險性我們建議是每三年最少要重新再做一次的一個評估再犯風險性的評估而強制性做一個心理的一個治療 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9201.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9227.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
在這個當中沒有問題的我們會認為這個條件式的一個終身隔離可以去做進行第二個主張第二個主張我們認為要加重最低的刑度考量受害的年齡當受害的年齡就像依照我剛剛在講的數據七歲以下各方面的一個條件都不太一樣的情形之下我們是不是應該要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9227.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9255.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
受害年齡呢去加重最低的刑度最低刑度目前是十年是不是提高到二十年的可能性針對七歲以下的幼童刑度再加上二分之一所以這在明顯的去擴張我們需要保護的對象而且針對我們需要保護的對象呢去強化在這一次當中的一個刑度考量這我覺得在這一次當中需要去注意到的那特別我們第三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9257.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9279.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
建立配套措施強制治療跟追蹤管控那各位可以去知道我們在放的一個研究報告當中其實在虐童案的部分其實有關說他心理治療或者降低他的再犯風險有沒有可能呢美國當中的一個報告當中研究報告有出來後面我們有將資料放出來確實能降低24%到36% |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9281.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9303.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
也就是說心理治療還有再犯風險評估如果確實去落實這個保安處分的情形之下他確實是有機會去降低他的再犯風險那要不要做預防那當然要去做預防如果你這個預防不去做的情形之下那就更不可能這個整個制度當中沒有去完整做改善所以我們提出來不管在現在明定91-1劣同致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9304.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9323.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
應該要強制病科心理治療跟保安處分受刑人要去接受三年的一個強制治療並且三年當中要重新去評估治療的必要性那出獄高風險者那我們也希望檢察官出獄之後去批准電子的監控跟持續追蹤完成這個相關的一個配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9324.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9340.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那最後我們也呼應一下說在這次凱凱案件當中其實我們真的很呼籲成立兒童家庭的專責單位而不是兒童單位而已因為兒童跟家庭當中本該就在一起如果這個方向沒有一次去處理的情形之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9340.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9363.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
分散在各部門再加上現在家庭教育的預算我們委員有在常常在質詢一年三億的情形之下你更不可能將這些孩子去接住或甚至不可能去做這樣的一個預防所以我們希望呼籲盡快的去訂這個相關的一個修正的一個法案這樣具體我們將我們今天的意見書也會給我們的委員也會給我們的官員好 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9365.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9381.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
好 謝謝 那就因為剛剛王理事長有提到這個國外的制度那請法國部務必要參酌那還有剛剛王理事長有提到美國的再犯率是15%那我想請問一下法國部我國的再犯率是多少手上有沒有這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9388.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9407.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
如果需要資料的話會後再提供好目前沒有這個數據對現在沒有我想說這個非常的重要一定要麻煩法務部要提供這個數據給我們而且要公開公開給社會大眾剛剛發言者有提到美國是15%的再販率那請研究一下我國到底是多少有嗎好那有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9417.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9433.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
沒有 我們只有一般的一般的再犯例沒有虐童案件再犯例我們要特定虐童案件我們今天主題是這個再麻煩次長就這個部分能夠給我們一下再犯例我想這個是對於修法非常重要好 謝謝次長那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9436.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9436.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那我們呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9451.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9466.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
主席還有我們與會的學者專家列席的官員還有我們的立委同仁大家好近年屢見家庭暴力與孽童案件那麼社會大眾是非常關注根據內政部統計資料過去十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9467.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9489.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
有261位的兒童跟少年遭肆虐死亡其中父母照顧者等家庭成員不當對待致死是235人依契約或職務對兒少有照顧義務之人不當對待致死者為26人因此在朝野共識之下刑法286條在113年7月16日三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9495.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9511.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
增加對虐童案件的刑罰力度但是仍然沒有納入死刑從數據來看去年一整年家內受虐致死兒童跟少年是30位這是9年來的新高那如果以7月16日做區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9512.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9540.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
換言之在修法之後家外受虐 致死人數三位其中兩起是嚴重虐待 一起是嚴重疏忽反而比修法前的零位還高好所以可以看出現有刑度還沒有達到社會期待來去有效遏止這類事件的發生那麼以凱凱案來說最近有兩位加害者 保姆一位被判無期徒刑 另外一位被判18年有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9541.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9564.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
但是依照現在刑法的77條規定被判無期徒刑要服刑25年才能假釋而18年則是二分之一9年就可以假釋這會出現同一件虐嬰案的加害人那麼他的實際服刑的程度會差非常多所以目前無論是刑度是不是要增加死刑以及限縮 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9566.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9583.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所謂的虐因犯的假釋規定這都是社會這一波我們非常關注的議題那我自己就有分別提案有的已經一讀包括刑法286條增列死刑那有的還在連述當中刑法77條虐因被判有期徒刑不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9584.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9600.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
那麼今天部會報告裡面有沒有看到司法院是反對增列死刑但認為可以增加無期徒刑有期徒刑不得假釋那法務部則認為增列死刑有研議空間那也同樣支持增加無期徒刑有期徒刑不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9601.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9627.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那我是認為不同的意見也就是死刑這一塊可以再來透過我們的公聽會來聽聽學者專家跟受害者家屬的聲音那繼續來去推動修法但是不管怎麼樣講至少針對有共識的不得假釋修法應該要盡速的來推動那尤其是法務部的部分我在質詢時已經提醒過鄭明謙部長那也獲得正面回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9628.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9645.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
希望法務部可以提版本 儘速送到立法院來不要像棄保潛逃跟防害司法公正罪一樣法務部一方面說版本已經送給行政院然後行政院又踢皮球說還在審議就讓立法院等了又等都等不到版本來審 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9646.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9660.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那這陣子在談刑法286條增列死刑時司法院法務部還有很多執政黨委員都說要審慎不宜變動審慎當然是要審慎但也必須提醒刑法286條並不是一個經常被使用的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9663.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9691.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
在2015年到2024年這過去十年當中以地方法院審理的案件來說只有兩年是一件違反280有兩年甚至是一件違反286條裁判都沒有那平均一年是5.7件而這十年當中也有只有一件被判無期徒刑那十年的98件罪次裡面被判五年以上有期徒刑占18件比例不到兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9692.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9715.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
一年以下則是53件 比例是五成四當然不是每一件都是重大的虐待兒童或少女但可能是輕傷但從刑度來講 社會大眾對於這次刑度的期待是相距甚遠所以這也是為什麼我們今天來從刑度來重新整體的檢討那最後 虐童案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9717.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9741.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
層出不窮 法治如果沒有跟上 等不到正義 那麼將會是有更多無辜兒童的生命遭到剝奪 那修法針對死刑大概在討論 但針對有期徒刑不得假釋的共識已經形成 那政府這部分應該即刻啟動 不要讓行政部門的怠惰 遲疑變成保護加害人的盾牌 那對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9742.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9762.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
虐嬰加害人應該要有應對的一個司法制裁這是社會基本的正義底線也是對受害家庭最起碼的交代那保護孩子我們的立法不能等 謝謝好 謝謝我想請問一下陳夢欣科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9769.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9794.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
陳科長請問一下你們那個虐童的再犯例你們有沒有統計有沒有統計報告委員我們的警政署這邊的部分的話再犯率的部分是沒有統計的沒有統計好我了解謝謝好那我們下一位請張明偉副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9802.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9803.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我們先休息五分鐘,五分鐘一到我們立刻開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10224.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10225.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
好 謝謝大家那我們繼續開會那我們接下來請張明偉副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10240.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10254.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
主席 各位長官 各位在座的先進 大家好我是輔仁大學張明偉今天很高興也很榮幸能夠來參加這個公聽會就這個公聽會的主題提供我個人一點意見供大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10255.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10275.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
首先我們今天溝聽會的召開主要當然是因為凱凱案引發了虐童刑罰是否過輕是否適當的爭議特別是說本案是以虐童致死罪起訴最後只判到無期徒刑跟18年那這樣子似乎社會大眾對這個結果不是很滿意 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10276.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10300.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那關於這個議題呢其實公共政策的網路參與平台從去年開始就不斷的有一些修法的建議的聲浪那除了有修271條的規定也有主張要修286條的規定那不管這個主張是怎麼樣大概都是認為啊虐童應該用死刑來加以回應那比較符合這個民眾的這個期待那對這個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10302.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10317.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
其實法務部這個先前就我看媒體的報導對這個主張的呼籲好像並沒有很積極的回應他主要的這個說法大概就是已經有相關的規範有這個存在的而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10319.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10333.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
271條本來就可以處罰殺人罪如果認定有殺人犯意的話是可以用殺人來處罰的那這樣子其實要不要增訂死刑作為刑罰的回應其實好像不是那麼的重要那不過我個人是覺得那這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10336.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10361.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
真的如法部所講的這麼單純嗎我是比較持存疑的態度因為畢竟如果說271條就可以處罰有關於這個致死的處罰問題的話那我們現行法有關於226條之一332條跟348條這種結合犯的殺人形態似乎你也可以用只有271條也可以解決來加以處理嗎那這樣是不是應該要把相關的結合犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10362.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10366.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
也一併刪除了那這個是我第一個質疑那再來其實我們從之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10370.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10392.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這個酒駕致死案其實類似的這個名義也有出現過特別在2019年那時候針對酒駕毒駕違規致死案件是不是應該要修正有死刑的這個爭議那其實後來的修法也增訂了185-3的相關的這個規定但是那個時候因為認為說用加重結果犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10394.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10414.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
加重監管的處罰然後賦予死刑的這個刑度是不是有什麼罪行均衡比例原則違反的爭議所以這個185-3的酒駕致死案他也是以無期徒刑來回應所以這個問題其實似乎跟我們今天所討論的凌虐致死案是不是可以用死刑價回應存在這個類似的這個問題存在那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10419.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10438.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
針對酒駕這個問題長期無法用殺人罪來加以起訴這個問題其實我覺得我有過一些思考那我覺得因為我們不斷的剛剛討論的問題都是聚焦在刑法分責要怎麼修正去回應民意那如果分責的修正本身沒有問題或者是說主張271條可以解決這些問題這個主張也沒有問題的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10442.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10471.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
是不是總則出了問題我覺得大家可以反過來思考我們刑法分則如果沒有問題的話會不會是我們刑法總則對於故意的定義出現了問題為什麼這麼說因為我們刑法13條對故意有定義性的規定可是這個規定是早在民國24年就制定了那當時或許國際間其他國家對於故意都是用這種方式做規範但是後來其實各國對於故意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10473.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10498.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這個規範啊產生了蠻大的變化譬如說德國已經廢掉了故意跟過失的立法定義對不對那美國啊其實對於主觀構成要件的規範啊主要有四種形態嘛這個除了這個過失一種以外啊它有這個意圖啊有知悉啊有清算是不是那這美國有三種類似故意的主觀構成要件的形態那我國把主觀構成要件的形態只定義成兩種那這兩種是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10501.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10516.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
曲線的所謂的這個故意刑責的適用這我覺得可能有考慮的必要性因為相較於這個德國沒有立法定義美國其實放寬的定義的範圍的角度來看我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10516.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10537.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
故意的定義其實限縮了故意犯罪的適用範圍這是一個很明顯的這個現象那是不是仍然適合這樣子規範我覺得這個刑總方面的問題是有值得進一步檢討的空間不過大家好像都聚焦在刑法分則應該有相對應的修正那我們再來看其實我們反貪公約28條它就明確規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10540.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10558.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
明知故意其實是得依客觀事實予以推定的這個樣子的條文其實跟我們刑法13條是明顯不符的那我們反貪公約其實也內國法化了換言之對於故意的認知如果反貪公約明文肯認可以以推定的方式去做判斷的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10559.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10576.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
那為什麼我們的刑法在相關的部分也沒有是相對定的回應這個就是一個法律上會產生正義的存在也就是說如果我們用陝灘公約28條所承認的推定的方式去推論這個被告到底有沒有故意的話那麼在很多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10576.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10603.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
酒駕或者是虐童致死的案件我們要認定這個行為人員故意他的難度似乎就沒有這麼高啦也就是說可以跳脫我們刑法第13條的立法框架的話那如果我們的刑法13條的立法已經不是國際上主流的立法趨勢立法的這個模式的話那我們其實應該要回過頭來去檢討是不是我們應該要去修正我們對於主觀構成要件的這個規範的模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10604.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10609.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
既然在討論到修法,我們也不要只侷限於刑法分責範圍的討論。好,那再來,這是我們這次的題,剛剛有討論到說,對於這種加重結果犯的形態,是不是可以處以死刑?那我們現行法有328條做這樣子的規定,因此引發了這樣子的討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10627.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10643.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
事實上我大概解鎖一下我們現行法的規定加重結果如果致人於死我們法律針對效果是無期徒刑的有堵職罪、公共危險罪、傷害罪、遺棄罪、妨害自由罪強盜罪以及毀棄損壞罪這些都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10645.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10655.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
用無期徒刑來作為加重結果犯處罰的這個規範那對於致人於死可以判死刑的這個加重結果的規定這個就有185之1 185之2這個就是劫機 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10660.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10682.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
妨礙非常安全還有這個強盜海盜以及魯仁勒贖罪也就是說其實我們今天要討論的286條凌虐致死是不是應該判死刑應該整體加上我們就先來討論這些條文如果可以應該都可以應該不可以都不可以不可以只有說只有286條可以或不可以的這個問題那為什麼會有這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10686.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10714.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這個問題出現我想最主要的就是因為加重結果犯的規範的這個結構因為我們對於加重結果犯的這個規範一般實務的認知都說這個17條的構造它其實是一個故意跟過失的混合那所謂故意跟過失的混合大家注意是我國刑法定義下的故意或過失的混合它不是其他國家立法定義中的故意或過失的混合所以因為它帶有過失的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10715.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10742.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
本質在裡面就我們十五認定的過失的本質在裡面才會導致於說啊當你一個犯罪的本質是故意加過失的混合他有可能被評價為不屬於最嚴重犯罪的這個結果出現那一旦被評價為不屬於最嚴重犯罪的結果自然就會把兩公約的這個禁止的規定拉進來了所以接下來可能就要去思考啊那這個故意加過失的結合啊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10743.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10763.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
加重結果犯的本質換句話說如果我們可以調整刑法總則對於故意跟過失本質定義上的這個內涵的話是不是我們也可以進一步去思考那加重結果犯是不是仍然是故意跟過失的結合因為我這兩天看了一個資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10764.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10789.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
德國的加重結果犯一般實務都承認說他對於重結果的發生雖然不需要具有故意但是他需要有輕率魯莽的這個本質那如果用輕率本質作為要件的話這基本上就是美國法對於故意犯罪的基本主觀構成要件的要求也就是說這種構成要件的結合型態在美國法的觀念裡他其實是故意加故意不是故意加過時 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10790.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10803.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那如果是這樣子的話那麼故意加故意的形態導致刑法死刑的結果出現也就不會有違反最嚴重犯罪不得處以死刑的這個禁止限制的這個規定所以我覺得這個是跟這個問題結合在一起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10807.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10835.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後當然早上林教授有談到重罪謀殺規則我只能講說過失致死這種加重結果犯的架構在英美法或在大陸法系其實是長久存在的一種立法的類型它其實不是這幾年才存在的所以說對於這個加重結果犯可不可以判實刑它就基本上在各國其實都承認但除了歐洲沒有因為它已經廢死了但是在譬如說美國或在亞洲的一些國家其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10836.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10856.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
它都有存在這個問題但是如果一定要說它有含過失的成分就不符合情節最重大的犯罪的話這個時候對於286條的規定要處於死刑其實就有一些法治上爭議但是如果沒有的話其實就不會有這樣子的問題主席請再給我幾分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10858.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10875.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那最後對於這個刑事政策上可不可以制定終身不得假釋的規定我覺得這應該是刑事政策的問題只要立法者願意這樣子的規範其實問題不太大不過他可能要在組型的部分做一些修正那再來就是說我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10877.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10892.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
這個終身不得假釋的規定其實應該要調整的其實是少年法因為我們少年法說少年不得判死刑但是少年不得判死刑是不是不得終身不得假釋在我們少年法其實沒規定美國聯邦最高法院從2012年以後的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10893.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10911.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
就已經多次承認了少年只有在致人於死的案件才可以判無期徒刑終生不得假釋也就是說對於少年犯件判無期徒刑他是不是有量刑上的一定限制他其實是受到是否致人於死的犯罪本質加以這個影響然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10913.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10926.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
關於本罪286條的修正我覺得如果我們還要考量加重結果犯似乎可能會違反罪行不均衡的考慮的話我們似乎可以參考226條 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10930.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10950.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
還有這個三百三十二條三百四十八條的立法模式以這個結合犯的方式來對於這個虐童又故意殺被害人的這種犯罪型態然後這個可以處於死刑當然啦前提還是必須去調整刑法對於故意的這個定義過於狹隘的這樣子的這個問題然後對於被害人的保護我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10956.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10980.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這個問題如果參照美國聯邦法制還有聯合國的一些相關的公約來講似乎都不包含上訴權還有結問權這些程序上的權利所以這個擴張被害者的權利其實在法制上特別是採取控訴模式的審判架構下其實會有一些法制上面的疑問存在這個應該要在審慎的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10982.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11010.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
只不過對於寧同案的被害人他年紀很輕的時候怎麼樣保護訴訟上面的權益似乎是可以參考VCAA的相關規範還有聯合國兒童權利公約的規定針對特定類型的案件似乎可以考慮增設訴訟參與人強制待遇的制度這樣子可以透過強制待遇的方式去保障兒童在個案中程序上的權益以上的建議請供大院參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11015.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11042.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
謝謝副院長對主觀翻譯上面的說明也請法務部參考另外我這邊補充一個就是因為兒童權利公約從108年就已經到現在那麼多年了那我剛期還蠻驚訝的就是說法務部跟警政署竟然對於虐童的再犯率到現在都沒有統計的數據那這樣我們108年的兒童權利公約那不是都推假的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11043.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11057.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我想說我們所有人大家都很支持一定要嚴懲這些虐待兒童的人嘛就這個最基本的數據我們竟然到現在都沒有統計因為這數據一定是我們修法以及解決社會問題一個最重要的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11058.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11079.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
那尤其是再犯率如果高的話那我們對於他的處罰要更嚴重甚至說是不是例如教育訓練做一些預防性羈押等等的這個是都是一些宣導的必要嘛那當然是要從數據上面來看所以麻煩兩個單位一定要趕快把這個數據給我們謝謝好那我接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11083.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11107.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
好 謝謝主席五分鐘嘛好 我是培餘過往我在兒童人權的領域工作也在兒童文化出版還有家庭教育所以今天我們既然要談所謂修法的法制總檢討那我今天所要談的就不會只有刑法等一下我會談到民法的1085條還有兒童工作證這件事情也就是說我們在修法之外所有的行政措施還有所有的配套我認為也要一併的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11109.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11133.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
那今天要先謝謝所有願意出席的專家學者給我們寶貴的意見我相信在後續的修法當中大家的意見都非常非常的重要首先我們來看一下刑法修正的部分那目前我們看了所有司法法制委員會各個黨派的委員所提出來的刑法修正草案目前大概有幾個方向第一個無歧途刑不得假釋第二個虐童致死得以處以死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11134.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11162.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
第三个修订加重其行至二分之一的年龄界限当我们看了这些版本之后我们再问除了这些事情之外我们还可以做什么或者是我们也可以再问这些就真的能够解决儿虐事件频传的问题吗我认为所有的修法都可以理性的讨论但是过去在面对儿虐相关事件通常第一时间大家的反应都是谈修正刑法调高刑度的方法来回应 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11163.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11175.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所謂的民意但我認為除了刑法修正之外所有法規範的配套都必須要一併的討論才能夠促成而虐案可以不要一再的發生那為什麼會這麼說我來舉一個例子我們來看刑法286的修法脈絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11181.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11201.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
在一零八年修法新增了第三項第四項有關於加重結果犯的規定到了一一三年又再加重修法到第五項虐待七歲以下兒童加重期刑到二分之一但是呢我們來看凱凱案是在一一二年的年底發生的時間點當時就是用五期徒刑加重結果的時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11204.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11220.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
大家认为调整刑度也许可以遏止犯罪但我要说效果一定有限刚刚有一位先进提到在修法后而虐事件还是数字上升也就是说修法到底回应了民意的什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11220.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11246.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
或者是修法又漏回應了什麼我認為在後續的討論一定要持續進行因為如果只是一昧的加重刑責沒有相關的法規範沒有相關資源的配套協助所有人甚至全台灣沒有一個共識叫做不要打小孩不要虐待小孩如果這樣的概念沒有辦法深入每一個台灣人的心中那所有的不幸事件都會一再的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11247.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11264.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
回過來看我剛講第二個部分談了刑法之後我想要談民法1085條我們來看民法1085條這件事情我手上有一個數字我們來看下一張衛福部保護司我們跟你們調了一個資料叫做兒少保護施虐者 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11266.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11286.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我再一次强调是施虐者的人数统计资料那办公室的同仁非常辛苦把这个资料整理出来第一栏是养父母或是父母第二栏是手足外祖父母或祖父母其他亲属还有同居人以上我们把它叫做所谓的家内虐儿大家可以看到从2019到2024年家内虐儿 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11289.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11304.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
几乎占了所有当年孽儿一半以上的数字什么意思当我们在看凯凯案的时候当我们以为是保姆促成了这个儿孽案让大家痛心的时候大家不要忘记一半以上的数字是发生在家内 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11305.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11326.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
廣泛的家內所以為什麼要談民法1085條也就是當大家所在意的兒虐零容忍這件事情沒有觀看到這個數字我們應該回頭想我們漏了什麼所以我要再次強調當我們談兒虐零容忍的時候請不要區分家內跟家外 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11326.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11342.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
當我們願意認真的面對這個務實的現況的時候我們才知道後續我們還可以做什麼事情所以為什麼每年430我都要呼籲大家所謂430國際不打小孩日並不是只是叫你在這一天不要打小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11343.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11360.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
而是從這一天開始練習不要打小孩也可以管教小孩不要打小孩也可以教養小孩我們可以透過各式各樣的行動透過正向教養的倡議透過用愛心取代打罵透過如何學習跟孩子溝通這都是我們大人可以做的事情而這樣的教養觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11362.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11386.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
回應到法制化正式民法1085條的規定也就是把原來的規定修正為以下的規定叫做父母保護以及教養未成年子女應考量子女之年齡及發展程度尊重子女的人格不得對子女為身心暴力行為我自己也提出修法的版本了當然法務部應該也有版本我要提醒的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11387.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11411.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
依照現行的民法1085的規定家長在教養子女的時候本來就不應該我要再次強調本來就不應該做出會對子女造成身心傷害的行為我的提案版本或者是法務部已經有的版本就是想要把這個精神這個概念給明文化彰顯不要讓孩子受到身心暴力虐待的決心但是有了這個決心跟這個法治化後 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11413.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11439.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
到底配套行為會是什麼或是配套的法制配套的規範又是什麼其實剛剛也有很多專家學者或是民間朋友有提到所以我要再次強調除了剛剛說的刑法民法1085也要拜託大家一起關心從這個數字我們再次強調一半以上的兒虐案件是來自於所謂廣義的家內兒虐接下來我要談第三個重要的事情就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11440.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11460.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所有跟孩子们一起工作的大人们样态非常多元不会只有保姆未来我们有运动教练现在其实也有还有学校的教师各式各样的社区运动人员或者是夏利营东利营里面这些老师或者是协助孩子的社工协助孩子的心理师这些 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11461.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11483.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
過往都曾經傳出所謂不適任人員對於孩子們不當的體罰或是性侵性騷不當的對待很多很多的案件都展現出現在台灣這個社會很多大人對於孩子是不夠理解的對於孩子福利是不夠支持不夠全面的所以過往我們在辦公室工作的範圍當中我們也跟很多民間團體共同倡議推廣兒童工作證 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11486.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11508.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
而兒童工作證這件事情之所以困難是來自於大家觀念還沒有建立再來一旦兒童工作證真的要成立那如何讓更多的人是被包括在這個範圍以內但是因為這件事情還在路上所以在那之前我們辦公室做了很多的事情我也要拜託大家未來可以一起關心也就是目前有非常多資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11509.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11526.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
都可以標示出所有的不適任現場工作人員包含司法單位、社福單位、教育單位都有這些資料庫但這些資料庫它可能不是對所有人公開透明它也不見得適合對所有人公開透明甚至資料庫之間是沒有勾結的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11526.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11546.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
所以當你的孩子發展到不同的階段需要跟不同的大人有所接觸的時候我們就要回過來看這些資料庫裡面是不是真的可以回應到大家想要找一個安全可以陪伴小孩的大人在我們小孩的身邊所以這些資料庫的勾結在過去兩年我們辦公室的工作當中我們很努力促成資料庫之間的勾結還有資料庫的公開透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11549.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11573.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
確保在不同的生活跟教育場域當中陪伴孩子的每一個大人都是適任的而且是適當的包含我剛舉的這些例子而這個兒童工作證我們也很開心聽到衛福部在五月初告訴我們未來目前在兒少全法修法的過程當中已經納入相關兒少全法當中我們很期待後續入法之後相關的配套跟行政資源也可以陸續上路 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11575.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11598.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
談了這麼多我要謝謝主席今天舉辦這個公聽會讓我們有機會再次檢視不管是刑法修正或者是我剛剛說的民法1085或是兒童工作者或者是剛剛所有先進所提的這些事情確實可以讓這個社會對於兒少的保護更加的全面但是我也要再次呼籲一再的提高刑責惡組犯罪的成效當然需要更多的研究跟討論但 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11599.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11616.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
所有的配套也非常非常的重要他絕對不會只有落在刑法的修正以上謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝那我們上午會議的時間會繼續進行至所有發言均結束為止下一位我們請李聖傑副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11628.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11644.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
招委還有與會的委員各位機關長官還有各位先進大家早安首先也是一樣對招委排進這個社會所矚目關注的關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11646.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11667.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
靈略幼童的這種行為的法制回應那我們也感到非常的欣慰就是說畢竟每次發生這種幼童受到靈略那一定會有受到這個社會的高度關注尤其相關的幼童基本上處於一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11669.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11682.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
自救力的狀態然後對於保護自己幾乎是沒有能力的所以發生這樣的一種重大的致死結果總是令人不捨不過我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11684.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11707.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
如同我們在今天的討論提綱提出來的就是說我們針對這個寧略兒童相關刑法的一種規範所可能測定的各個面向在相關的討論裡面總還是要回到一個現代刑法的基本原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11708.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11724.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那之前這個張明偉院長,副院長不好意思那也提供了很多從美國法的思考然後呢讓我們去看看這個刑法還有什麼樣的可能的修正的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11725.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11744.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我國的刑法基本上受到德國刑法很大的影響在整個不管是刑法總則的規定 或者是刑法分責的體系我們也不會言 基本上就是我們記受了德國法很多的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11746.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11765.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以我想說今天也從德國法的規範精神也來談談關於我們對於幼兒保護如果說還需要有刑法測定的可能的話,可以改進的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11767.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11789.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
在可以改進的空間就大會所提供的這個286條刑法286條的這個條文的應用上基本上有兩個面向就刑法法規的規定而言不外乎第一個就是犯罪要件的規定其次就是法律效果那今天這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11792.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11821.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
整個大會提供的具體提綱我們看到好像是比較多的琢磨在相關法律效果修訂的可能然後甚至也就是同時去連接是不是在法律效果上在無期徒刑以上在增訂死刑的可能然後在執行的面上如果是就無期徒刑而言那有沒有在增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11822.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11842.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這一個相關的修正規定去做不得假釋的必要那如同我剛剛所說明,如果從刑法的策進面上面基本上兩個面向應該去思考第一個就是犯罪的要件,第二個就是法律的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11842.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11871.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那就犯罪的要件而言相關286的規定在1935年就有了當時的這個規定是採傳統結果犯的判斷方法使得286的懲罪門檻很高那必須針對這個孕育幼兒的行為我們的司法者在適用懲罪的判斷上還要去證明有這一個身心 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11872.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11890.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
防害申請結果的這一種結果跟行為的連結那這樣的一種反而是對幼童保護沉醉門檻這麼高呢那基本上讓過往286條那刑法286條幾乎成為劇文 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11894.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11913.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那這樣的一個瑕疵呢,基本上在那個,不好意思,我們辦會的資料,那相關的資料我擺在我們辦會資料的17頁,在倒數1234第4行,我那邊打錯字了,所以我想這邊因為是書面資料,我特別的更正。 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11914.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11938.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那說這個問題在2012年12月立法院的修法那我這個書面資料寫成1912啦 真的很不好意思在2012年當時我們法務部已經做了一個修正的建議把傳統結果犯的判斷改成逐生判斷就是說這個在學理上我們稱為四心犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11939.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11955.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那在犯罪要件的成立上其實就我們刑法的規定這邊已經對幼兒有一個是應該說一個很特殊的犯罪類型的應用這個用足深判斷基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11956.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11970.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
會使得我們對幼兒保護其實是透過一個很傳統的不容易去證明對一個行為跟結果因果關係的這種檢視方法上已經做了突破 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11971.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11992.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那相關的這個四刑犯的應用呢我覺得反而在286條在應用的時候呢那應該讓實務工作者確實有看到當時修法的必要也就是說呢對於兒童的保護至少我們在法律規範的回應上面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11994.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12014.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
並不是沒有做任何的更動也不是沒有對幼兒的無自救力狀態都不給予法律上的回應相關四心飯的規定我也這一次擺在大會資料上過往法務通訊也曾經針對四心飯的應用對我做一個專訪相關的專訪資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12023.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12049.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我就擺在大會資料的第19頁以後也請參考那接下來呢我想就談談這一個就法律效果那是不是如同今天提綱所說明的那因為在強盜罪我們有強盜致死的死刑規範然後我們286條的虐兒致死那也可能加以死刑的這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12050.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12071.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那這邊在我覺得說我們在做相關比較的時候呢那應該把強盜罪跟這個虐兒罪的原型做一個比較所謂的犯罪原型除了保護法醫之外它原型所連接的法律效果也是很重要的一個判斷因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12072.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12085.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
那虐兒罪呢基本上它當然沒有錯它是一個傷害罪的特殊類型那也因為是兒童的必須加以保護所以呢我們才有286條的特別立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12086.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12113.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那在強盜罪它所侵害的基本上它不是只有財產法益而已基本上強盜罪基本上這個是學說實務共識它大概有三個法益可能被侵害第一個就是財產法益沒有問題第二個就是自由法益第三個行為人所使用的強盜行為會涉及到生命跟身體的危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12115.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12122.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以強盜罪的法定刑在328條才會定那麼高強盜罪的法定刑是五年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12123.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12151.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
回到286的這個虐兒罪來看的話呢虐兒罪是六個月以上五年以下這是相當於法定刑的類比是截然不同的所以我們不能只是因為說強盜致死有一個致死結果虐兒致死也有一個致死結果所以強盜致死有致死結果可以定連結死刑虐兒致死當然可以連結死刑這邊可能還必須要做一些討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12152.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12168.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那其次呢在這一個相關的286的應用上我在這邊可能還有一個適用前提就286的這一個NIR致死基本上呢它 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12170.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12183.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
一定不是271條的殺人罪那一定不是271條的殺人罪來自於我們我想這邊很多討論我們的故意類型故意類型雖然在我們刑法的第13條有所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12189.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12206.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
直接故意跟未必故意那可是在未必故意的判斷上那我們有一個立法定義行為人對結果遇見發生發生不違背其本意行為人主觀我們怎麼樣在這個司法實務去做判斷呢基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12208.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12223.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這邊本來就是透過行為人所使用的客觀行為去推主觀這是沒有問題的如果行為人基本上不斷地做一個虐待的動作心裡想的是即使死了也沒什麼關係他不會用286啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12225.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12254.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這個就是一個很典型的271條的未必故意的殺人行為所以基本上在我們做立法判斷的時候應該去思考的故意跟過失在傳統的司法判斷故意跟過失的分類的時候出了什麼問題其次假釋我想最後一點點時間我馬上把它說完這一個假釋是一個很涉及刑事處遇的高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12255.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12274.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
行事立法政策那目前為止呢假設被認為是一個特別預防非常有效的工具那基本上以德國以這個歐日來說尤其是德國德國是沒有死刑所以呢基本上呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12275.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12291.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他在認為這個行為人有終身隔絕社會必要的時候他當然只能給予無期徒刑給予無期徒刑他既然是已經認為他終身不需要再社會化所以就有不得假釋的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12292.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12316.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們台灣是有死刑的國家基本上在使用無期徒刑的時候是不是因為無期徒刑我們就在司法宣告的時候認為他終身不再社會化這樣的宣告是不是在法院判決的時候我們已經這樣認定了我覺得這邊會涉及到假釋的高度 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12317.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12334.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
心思處遇的功能那我想很多的議題呢我在這個相關的書面資料也做了充分的說明那謝謝大會今天這樣的討論謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12346.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12361.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
好 謝謝主席 以及也感謝今天來參加公聽會的各位學者專家來參加由我們司法法治委員會所舉行的公聽會我想這個議題在社會上有很多的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12364.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12391.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
我想我剛才也稍微聽一下我們一些法學專家就過去大家可能就有一些法律的意見認為就說直接把它修正為說是死刑或者無期徒刑不得假釋大家可能會有一些疑慮但是我在這邊必須要提的是我覺得法律是應該保障人民尤其是保障善良的人民而且應該保障沒有辦法抵抗的這個孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12393.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12410.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那所以其实如果从各位可能是比较是法律的学者专家但是如果把它作为一个社会问题来看的话你可以看到我们现在就说台湾的儿虐跟少年保护是极为不足的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12411.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12429.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
从2017年到2023年我国儿少遭到严重虐待死亡人数累计是56人56人其实每一条都是非常珍贵的生命2019年到2023年我国儿少受虐合计人数从1万 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12429.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12432.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
1113人增加到12646人增幅數高達13.8%尤其未滿6歲受孽人數從2244人增加到2868人增幅高達27.8% |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12448.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12477.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以也就是說其實在這麼長一段時間尤其社會不斷的傳輸重大的兒童事件那大家也覺得說不管是在社會安全網的部分或者在法律部分我們如何精進如何能夠去保住保護我們的兒童可是如果你今天看這樣的人數確實令人觸目驚心確實令人觸目驚心再加上尤其在 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12479.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12494.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
憲法法庭做出所謂的一致決的決定之後判決死刑一致決的決定之後形同實質廢死那麼也就是說台灣成為一個好像司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12495.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12523.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
跟法庭上沒有辦法去真正保護受害人或受害人家屬尤其在我們看到就是在形同是知廢死的這個憲法法庭的判決之後有幾個在社會上也受到高度重視的這些社會案件譬如說新竹輪胎行縱火奪八命他原來是死刑就把他改判成無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12524.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12533.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
還有馬國女大學生她原來呢是判了死刑但是在釋憲之後呢一樣最高法院撤銷判決發回更審 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12536.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12556.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以總總現在司法的方向會讓民眾覺得擔心甚至憤怒所以今天我們的這樣的一個公聽會其實來源自也就是在凱凱案受到社會矚目之後的凱凱案大家也知道在網路上已經超過13萬人的連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12559.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12574.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
而且呢我也相信在包含我自己在內還有跨黨派的委員我們的辦公室來自多如雪片般的誠情和建議要求希望對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12576.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12597.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
兒童就是凌虐致死應該我們要修法能夠判處死刑或者無期徒刑那對於我想民意代表來講我們最重要的我們是要順從民意我們要順從民意所以在這個方面在因為我現在是國民黨團的書記長那我們黨團呢也 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12602.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12609.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
出印回應的現在廣大的民意我們也提出了修法我們修正的是刑法第286條就是將淋虐6歲以下7歲以下的兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12617.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12624.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
是人與死者處死刑或者是無期徒刑所以在這邊也跟大家報告因為黨團提出了版本我們當然希望能夠去順利的修法能夠回應現在社會大眾特別是廣大的父母們尤其對凱凱案還有過去這麼多的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12639.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12665.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
的虐兒案或者是過去也有凌虐致死的案件我們必須要做出一個回應感謝今天所有的學者專家給我們的寶貴意見但是呢在這方面的修法那我也認為是必須我們要去回應社會真正大部分人的意見以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請黃鼎宣副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12674.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12682.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
好 那主席以及各位與會的先進在座各位先進大家好那等一下跟書籍說抱歉的是我等一下可能講完我要回去要上課這樣都可能會先行離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12683.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12705.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那我今天這個公聽會的這個討論的提綱我主要是會以這個訴訟法的修改為中心那主要的是刑事訴訟法以及國民法官法還有少年事件處理法的這個修法那首先呢我會先討論兩個層次的問題第一個是虐童案的這個被害人他年紀上輕要怎麼保障那第二個是非幼童的這個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12707.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12734.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那怎麼擴充這個權益這兩個方面來跟大家說起那首先第一個呢也就是在虐童案的這個被虐的兒童通常他的這個年齡都是比較小的那他是我們所謂的弱勢證人那弱勢證人在做這個證人的時候他有可能會面臨到以下幾個問題第一個是他的證詞的可信性可能會有一些問題是因為幼童他在說話的時候可能會有前後反覆等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12735.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12754.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
是因為他的身體狀況的這個發展而導致可能證詞可信性會受到影響以及第二個呢因為幼童他的身體發育會比較不像成人一樣所以我們為了避免他受到二次傷害那我們在現行的這一個訴訟法制上面有所謂的這個司法詢問員的制度會對他進行保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12755.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12779.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
司法詢問員的制度是在《性侵害防治法》第19條及第26條主要是說我對於兒童或身心障礙者在受到性侵害的時候我們可以對他以司法詢問員的方式詢問他的證詞確保證詞的可信性以及避免二次傷害這是司法詢問員的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12781.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12807.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
不過呢在這一個司法詢問的運用上面我認為說或許我們可以把它擴大擴大呢擴大至性侵害以外的這一個案件也就是說不管是這一個性侵害案件或者是性侵害以外的案件你兒童在做證人的時候其實都有確保他證詞可信性以及呢避免他受到二次傷害的可能所以我認為說應該要把這一個司法詢問的制度擴大及於性侵害以外的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12808.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12834.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
參考日本法治在日本的刑事訴訟法的321條之三他也去規定說直接在刑事訴訟法規定以下的兩個對象都有這一個司法權務員的使用一個是特定的性犯罪另外一個是依犯罪的性質公訴者的年齡身心狀況以及與被告的關係去認為說這一個弱勢證人在準備程序或者是審判期日當中他的公訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12835.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12850.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
會有侵害到這個弱勢證人的精神平穩的話那這樣子就會有司法詢問員的適用所以我認為說司法詢問的制度或許可以基於保障被害兒童這樣弱勢證人的權益那可以擴大給予到性侵害以外的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12850.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12864.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那接下來呢我要討論的這個議題是關於這個刑事訴訟法以及國民法官法到底要不要去擴張給予這個被害人有獨立上訴權被害人的結論權以及證據調查申請權那我的結論是不疑的那為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12867.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12884.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我會用以下幾點理由來跟大家做說明那首先第一點理由是呢訴訟程序其實在我們的刑事訴訟程序也好或國民法官法的程序也好它是由當事人去主導進行的也就是呢根據我們的刑事訴訟法的修法在2012年以及2013年的修法我們是改裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12885.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12913.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
改良市當事人進行主義而國民法官法呢它在我們的這個47條立法理由當中它也說明了我們採取的是這個當事人進行主義這樣的架構那當事人進行主義跟改良市當事人進行主義它主要的都是你今天呢在做證據調查等等的權限那原則上是委由我們的當事人也就是檢察官以及呢這一個被告以及辯護人來去進行主導那進行主導之後呢它再由這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12914.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12930.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
再由這一個檢察官跟被告以及辯護人來對於證人去進行結論或者是申請調查證據這樣的權限也就是我們所謂的三面關係因此在訴訟裡面的這一個主體呢主要的是檢察官然後被告以及法院這樣形成三面關係所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12931.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12955.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
在這個部分的話 我認為基於訴訟程序是有當事人主導的這一點理由我認為不宜擴充給予被害人有這樣的權利另外第二點是刑事裁判其實它的主要目的是正確確認法律的存在這一個刑事裁判的目的並不是以回應犯罪被害人的被害情感為目的回應被害情感只是次要的目的而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12956.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12981.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這樣子的觀點可以在我們這個法官法的第86條的第一項看到這樣子的影子存在那為什麼呢 是因為86條第一項說檢察官代表國家依法訴追 處罰犯罪為了維護社會秩序的公義代表人所以這個公義代表人原則上他是基於公義不會受到被害人依項的拘束然後去進行犯罪的訴追 並且確認法律的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12981.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12996.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
所以反過來的假設我們刑事裁判是以回應被害人的被害情感為中心的話那這樣子我們其實就不會在法官法當中去規定檢察官是公益代表人他應該規定的是檢察官是被害人的代理人才對所以基於這樣的觀點來說我認為說被害人他 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13000.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13029.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
無法享有這樣子的形式裁判上的各種當事人所應該享有的最終處分的決定權限那接下來呢第三點是參考日本法治的這一個說明那在日本法治上面呢它其實有去徵定了這一個被害人可以參與訴訟這樣子的權利那尤其是會涉及到我們今天的提案是呢這一個被害人他可以就情狀的事項也就良形的情狀事項對於證人進行對質結論或者是你可以直接詢問被告的這兩點 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13029.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13055.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
會比較是跟我們今天有關那至於說呢這個法條的這個翻譯我放在我們今天的與會資料當中的第27頁及28頁以下那請各位先進可以參考那就這個部分來說呢就這一個犯罪被害人的保護上來講其實增訂了剛才所說的這一些可以就良心事項結論證人或者是說可以去詢問被告的這一個被害人參與之後那有日本的學者他從刑事訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13056.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13080.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
情勢政策的觀點來看其實這樣子的徵定呢會使得犯罪被害人參與之後有可能會導致法庭會有具場化的現象也就是被害人會跟這一個被告會有這樣子的這一個攻擊等等的這樣的現象那當然我不是說被害人呢他的權益不值得保護而是說可能會導致於說我們刑事訴訟法的目的呢會受到削弱那會萎縮被告的防禦權以及被告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13080.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13092.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
以被害人的報復情感有可能會影響到法院去正確認定事實的這一個裁判的正確目的所以會妨礙刑事訴訟法本來的目的因此我認為說基於刑事訴訟法本來的目的是正確認識用法這樣的目的來說那我認為說不應該去 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13098.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13118.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
擴權賦予被害人這樣的這些權利那接下來呢在這一個第四點的這個國民法官的程序上面因為國民法官他會有一般的人民加入所以我們原則上要去防止國民法官會有產生欲斷的新政所以在這個部分的話呢要怎麼避免欲斷的新政其實在日本法治上面他們就有去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13119.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13144.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
也就是說他認為說呢要避免這一個裁判員法庭新政的話其實他們會認為說法院應該要去判斷說如果你今天的案件是增值犯人統一性也就是我今天否認我犯罪的前提之下那法院呢應該要認為說被案參與訴訟他不具有相當性而駁回這一個參加申請的這個意見也有這樣的意見存在那在我國的程序上來說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13145.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13166.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
在國民法官法的第四條雖然有適用被害人參與訴訟的規定但我認為說應該要在國民法官的程序以及我們刑事訴訟法的目的也就是避免國民法官產生預斷新政的前提之下去做解釋所以就刑事訴訟法的部分我認為說不宜擴充賦予犯罪被害人有獨立上訴跟被害人結問權以及申請到他證據這樣的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13171.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13196.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那接下來呢第二個部分我會先就少年事件處理法來做說明那就少年事件處理法來說結論上我也認為說不應該要賦予被害人有獨立上訴那被害人有結婚權以及申請調查證據這樣的權限那其實我們會知道說在釋字805號解釋呢我們認為說今天被害人他可以參與少年的保護事件程序那理由是因為呢大法官說釋字805號解釋說這個是正當法律的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13197.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13215.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
的要求所以被害人可以參與但是他會跟我們的少年事件處理法的這一個這一個第一條的立法精神我們要去做相配合的去做解釋那除此之外呢在36條之一也好或者是少家廳的這個函式也好他們也說明了其實在我們刑事訴訟法的被害人參與的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13215.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13235.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
他不適用在我們的少年事件處理法的理由是因為我們少年事件處理法有特別的這個立法目的也就是說我們要保障少年的意見表明權也就是呢所謂的少年正當法律程序的保障也好或者是維護少年的健全自我成長我們主要的要知道這一個少年他到底呢需要我們幫他做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13236.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13256.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
然後他需要未來想要長成怎樣子的大人的樣子所以我認為說應該要保障這一個少年的意見表明權之後我們成人才知道要如何在旁邊去幫助他所以少年法官在傾聽少年的意見之後我認為說應該要積極的以意願為主不知道大家有沒有這樣的意見就是有時候如果成人一直逼迫你去 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13257.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13281.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
去承認你的錯誤的話有時候我就不願意講那我就不知道該怎麼幫他所以我認為意見表明權很重要所以最後回歸到被害人在少年事件處理法的定位我認為說他是能協助少年法院去對於少年去做健全自我成長實踐少年事件處理法第一條的協力者之一而已所以我認為說呢只要是危害到少年事件處理法第一條所謂少年健全自我成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13282.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13303.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這樣子的被害人參與的訴訟制度的話都不宜的貿然引進所以就結論上來講的話我認為說不管是刑事訴訟法也好或者是國民法官法也好或者是少年事件處理法也好呢我認為說都不宜擴充賦予被害人有獨立上訴權被害人有結論權以及證據調查的申請權那以上呢是我的報告那謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13308.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13323.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
謝謝 副教授是國內法律的專家 少數方面的專家而且從兒童的角度去看待輸送上面的權益我覺得這是非常重要 謝謝好 那下一位我們請林玉順教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13336.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13349.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
主席在場的各位先進大家午安大家好時間很晚了我們早上九點多等到現在可能大家肚子餓我盡量很簡單的把我今天要跟各位報告的事情做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13351.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13378.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那因為真的這個題目很多我剛剛接到這提告的時候我覺得哇這從刑法實體法到程序法到刑事政策到監獄到國民法官都要講的話講不完所以我今天鎖在鎖定在可能我們第四題甚至我就覺得我今天看我們這個我們主席很用心把這標題有一個副標就回憶民意然後虐捅行者的法治的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13379.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13402.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那我把這個副標題我把它拆成兩個怎麼回憶名義 我以回憶名義為主啦然後更重要的就是我們都是第三人那真正的如果算是受害的案件當事人 被害人他的意見在我們整個刑事司法院怎麼納入我覺得是我今天想報告的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13404.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13432.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那首先我從第二個講說從兩個案例談起那第二個案例是第一件我們台灣國民法官的一個審判的案例那這是當初這案例判決之後其實很多很多的社會意見可是我覺得讓我覺得特別關注的就是這件案子被害人曾經到法庭面來陳述意見那我稍微念一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13434.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13459.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
大家想想看那個殺人的一個家暴殺戶案中那受害人還有那個加害人都是他自己最親近的人那我相信他願意到法庭來他心裡承受的壓力是很大的可是他願意來可是我們在整個過程當中有聽可是有沒有聽到有沒有聽進去我覺得是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13460.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13478.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
為什麼會有這樣的看法因為你看我們看到的內容她說她身為一個女兒如果她多關心一下父母家庭的事情的話她認為不會發生接下來這句讓我覺得聽了很有感她說 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13480.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13491.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對於父母親或他家裡面的事情我都看在眼裡我能明白母親的痛苦我也想過如果同樣的事情發生在我身上我是我會選擇一樣的路 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13494.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13513.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
那我當我聽到這一段的時候其實他這一段講的時候我當場在現場旁聽的時候我聽到整個現場裡面很多人就就拿著手帕出來在擦眼淚就是說我們可以知道這悲哀是很痛苦的面對這樣一個場景可是我們看我們國民法官法73條第三項有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13515.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13544.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
當被害人陳述意見之後如果你對他的內容如果說有一些想更進一步了解的話你是可以做補充詢問的可是很可惜的我們這個案件裡面我們沒有看到法官或是國民法官有去再進一步的追問到底為什麼你會覺得如果是你的話你沒有把握你不會像你母親這樣做我覺得這是很重要的就是被害人的心聲是不是我們有真的把它聽進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13545.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13560.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那我覺得是可能是不是我們這個備案在我們現在法律的規定上或所謂訴訟參與權是有一種好像是一個形式上的技術上的規定那我馬上看我覺得這個可能大家在 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13561.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13590.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
台灣也看到相當報導日本京都有一個動漫工作室被晃火裡面死傷了很慘重三十人死亡 三十人受傷我們看他們在安排他們停棋的時候他們發 就是被害人有需要到底為什麼這是被告為什麼下手為什麼是挑這樣的公司為什麼這時間進去他們很想知道被害人被害人很想知道被告你的想法或是讓被告聽一下我們被害人的一個痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13591.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13605.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
所以他們安排了十天裡面就結婚被告安排十天的庭期然後又排了三天 整整三天讓十三名被害人家屬去講他們對這個案子的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13606.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13623.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以我是覺得我們制度設計我就跟回民意怎麼讓當事人或是我們關於司法但是我們要參與司法審判的所謂國民主權尊重他們要去發表意見的時候我們這些設計其實有沒有達到原本規劃的目的我覺得是重要的尤其我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13625.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13645.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
人民對人民 被愛人他心生他真實的感受才容易被聽到剛才一早的時候聽到黃國昌黃委員就提到就是說我們法律人神簡變三方可能往往就跟一些最本土的聲音或是最庶民的聲音有點脫節 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13646.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13675.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
所以他裡面就描述這個參與審判不管是對參與審判的被害人或是參與審判的這個裁判員或是我們的國民法官其實他們經過這樣的一個審判過程他們都有很多很多的不同的感想或是得到對於司法的信任或對司法的了解有進一步的提升那現在我覺得我們台灣現在已經有了國民法官那這個國民法官其實解決我們很多很多問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13677.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13680.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個好像調整上要拿方向這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13683.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13707.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
就是說我們的司法的不當 我們恐龍判決的批評司法的嚴當 司法的不公 政治文件講說我們現在很多案件是不是有政治介入問題或是我們誤判的問題其實我們國民法官其實是某種可以去解決讓人民自己進來參與這個審判的過程讓他瞭解 反映他們的感想或是做一個國民主權 一個司法民主的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13708.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13722.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那我覺得最近這一兩年來常常接待很多國外相關的司法團體來跟我們台灣做交流也就是說這個是一個整個國際操作的趨勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13727.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13744.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
可是我們發現我們看這兩年的國民法官的一個刑事案件我們發現我們這兩年有檢查案起訴285件竟有高達73件因為我們審檢變商方就排除了這國民法官的私用 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13746.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13769.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
而且我們國民法官特別強調這不僅是要提升私保透明度或是反映人民的感情更重要是要彰顯國民主權我們審檢片三方的決定就讓人民沒有辦法參加我覺得這是一個值得檢討的事情如果要反映民意來看的話我們看我們參考的一個對象日本的制度我們看他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13771.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13796.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
2020年、2021年、2022年他們會因為我們擔心的理由去說我們的國民法官受到媒體的影響或是因為案件太複雜我們幾乎在日本的案例裡面看不到他們唯一擔心的會排除適用的是因為擔心你參加這案子你是不是可能是黑道犯罪是組織犯罪可能你會有人身安全他們就排除適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13797.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13818.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
可是你可以看它的排除適用是個位數的一千件他們適用案件倒是兩個就幾件案件 兩件三件就是因為人身安全 國民法官的人身安全才有這樣的一個排除適用相對來講我們竟然有高達四分之一左右的這樣排除案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13819.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13837.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那我就發現上禮拜一個韓國的學者來做相關的研討也是講他們韓國就發生這個現象原本適用案件也高達一千件左右可是現在就變成一個不到百件去適用他們韓國的他們所謂國民法官的制度人民參與審判制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13837.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13852.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
那我覺得現在真的是一個我們一個很重要的轉捩點我想明年之後我們國民法官要擴大如果我們常常因為什麼案件複雜就排除私用的話我覺得對於我們的私改或是我們的一個人民參與的話是很大的展散 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13855.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13875.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
好那我們再看一下就是說我們台灣的法制對被害人輸送餐飲的法制我覺得我們台灣真的是比國外的立法或是甚至比日本的立法更超前因為你看我們在2019是選在國際人權日去訂的是被害人輸送餐飲然後裡面規定了10個條文去規定這個內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13880.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13898.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
甚至我們的大法官憲法法院的一個憲法法人員看法認為說這個被害人輸送的意見的陳述權它不是政策而已它是一個人民的基本權利所謂政策的話可能我們覺得這是你們上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13899.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13925.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
由上而下給我們一些恩惠給我們社會福利可是我們台灣超前部署啊是不是說不是這是人民可以跟國家要求我覺得這是在其他歐美國家在日本很少看見把它當作基本權利可是我們看一下那台灣十一操作中發生什麼事情到現在我們台灣這被害人的位置坐在哪裡其實就還是各法院各法庭都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13927.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13944.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那我們看日本他讓他坐在一個固定的位置然後坐在一個他實時可以去反映意見他去表現主席可以再給我三分鐘嗎這三分鐘我很快把後面結尾就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13945.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13971.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們現在常常看到我們台灣的國民這個這個 黑暗殺人群的話他可能坐在證人的旁邊或是他證人的鑑定人的一個那個柵欄裡面的一個前面的位置我覺得那感覺是你就是好像來過水的一樣剛才我講到為什麼我們台灣有這樣的制度可是好像黑暗的聲音很難讓裁判者判斷者聽進去就是有豆牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13971.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13990.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
可是那時間充不充分或是你坐的位子你有沒有時間讓他實際上去了解這整個審判過程或是審判的內容我覺得是跟這個很小的問題可是我倒覺得他是一個大學問你看像日本的法庭他就有固定的位子就坐在檢察院旁邊或他坐在檢察院後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13992.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14021.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
好 那日本裡面他對於失望參與的機制大概有這樣子就是他不僅可以表達意見他某種程度也可以當作去發現真實去了解從透過跟被告或是對於證人的一個對話去讓案情更清楚那這邊剛才 抱歉有一個統計數字就是說可以看到日本他們實際上每年都有1500件的左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14022.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14038.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
他們被害人在法庭上不是坐在那邊或是就一個剎那間去表達意見他甚至可以參與整個訴訟的流程審判的流程等一下有一個圖我們可以再看得更清楚好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14041.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14066.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
我們現在就是比較大的問題就是說會贊成這個所謂的我們現在的所謂的三方的這樣的審判的構造可是這個後面不管國民法官或是我們所謂的當事人的改造其他一個對照核心就是要施這個審判權或司法權的下放而且是分散那怎麼貫徹這個 怎麼樣貫徹然後去維持這個審判的效率我覺得是一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14067.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14090.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那最後我想用這跟大家講一下就是我覺得大家最近可能很多民間的統計說什麼我們台灣的司法改革好像大家很不滿意可是我覺得並不是方向錯司法權的下放跟分散是對的方向可是我覺得是不徹底我剛才講的不管是我們事務參與或是我們國民法官這個人民參與的這個機制這方向是對的可是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14092.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14118.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我覺得他就是 不到位喔 不到位喔我們這邊看就是日本他們他們表演素用參與的話他讓他安排在檢察官的旁邊或是在安排在檢察官附近說明你不是來過水的你是可以站到從頭到尾而且對整個過程你有任何不了解的話檢察官跟你講到底現在我們進到什麼程度現在剛才審判的內容是在講什麼要讓他們表演理解更重要 他會讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14119.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14140.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
被害人除了去表達他對審判裡面他的這個案情裡面他是案件的當事人他所受到的委屈他的對這個案件的看法他可以透過對證人的結論或證人的被告去表示他的意見那更重要的就是我是覺得這個怎麼去維持這個三方構造透過設計是可以達到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14143.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14163.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那詳細我的文章有寫我就再不多做說明可是至少我們可以看見被害人有一個固定的位置他不是過水的被害人可以全程參與被害人在我們審判的過程我們在整個審判過程尊重被害人我們不是只讓他按你講的意見就照本訊去唸完我就怎麼樣聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14165.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14184.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
重點在到 聽進去然後在你的審判中發揮效果我覺得是重點那我還是一樣就是行百里辦救市我們都有 人民參審當然說參審都有可是怎麼貫徹它原本的那個制度設計我覺得是值得大家思考的好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14185.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14197.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好 謝謝林教授 林教授在刑事實體跟懲役法上面都有很多研究謝謝給予最寶貴的建議好 那下一位我們請董律師朝偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14210.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14237.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
各位委員各位與會的學者專家以及各位到場的長官大家好今天很榮幸出席貴委員會召開的回應民意虐童行者法治總檢討的公聽會首先近年來兒少案件層出不窮今日本著痛心與不捨的心情出席此公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14239.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14247.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
今日大家都是為了保障人權實現社會正義以及促進民主法治而共同前來與會在此我 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14252.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14275.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
沉重的呼籲我們我國公部門應該重視以下幾點國家設置政府最主要是透過它來實現安全、秩序、正義、自由及福利這五大功能及目的安全及秩序只是國家的消極目的倘若連安全跟秩序都無法做到更何況來奢求後續的自由與福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14277.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14299.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
國家更應該重視人民的安全照顧人民一個國家有多麼進步只需要去看這個國家是如何對待及照顧最弱勢的人民倘若我們連最弱勢的人民都能夠妥善的照顧如此我們才能晉升這個完全民主的法治國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14301.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14319.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
凱凱案只有一歲半的兒童正是我國最弱勢的人民他連講話說不定都還不太會講國家文明進步的展現就是看我們後續當這些案件發生之後如何來妥善及對待以及整體的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14322.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14335.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
對於加強兒虐防治,捍衛兒少兒童權益,正是大家努力的目標以下針對這次議題說明這些法制的意見,請多指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14336.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14363.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
第一個關於虐視兒童相關刑責是否有測定之處當然受限於我國目前的法治本案檢察官他是以286條來起訴而不是以殺人罪刑法271條來起訴因此導致後續的國民法官他只能受限以最高刑責無期徒刑來作為一個宣告刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14365.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14390.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
我國刑法328條是強盜罪因而致人於死者最高可以處死刑原因在於說在刑法328條這個強盜罪它有一條叫致死不能抗拒那我們回想這個整件案件凱凱案發生的過程一次半的凱凱被虐待的時候是不是也面臨到致死不能抗拒的虐待 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14392.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14416.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
與此本案相較於328條致死不能抗拒的被強盜被強盜的受害人凱凱的案有過之而無不及面對肆虐的人凱凱無法逃脫無法抗拒其自我保護及反抗的能力遠低於強盜罪的被害人自然我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14418.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14434.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
有提升兒童凌虐致死者最高刑度把最高刑度拉高為死刑因此有他的正當性及必要性況且在我國相當的法治之下法律必須隨著社會而變遷 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14437.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14449.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
對於法務部一再與這個特殊的法制不符合中體法制規範而言這一點我是持相當的這個反對意見畢竟在 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14453.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14475.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
大院的所有立委委員的努力的提升之下一定要有所先突破我們針對一個點突破之後後續把所有的相關配套法制一併的把它提升上來這樣子就不會有目前的所謂法務部他們有關於說這個比例原則有失輕重的這些問題出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14477.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14495.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
況且我們會委由每個案例委由國民法官或者由職業或者由法官來衡量對於事件的輕重來給予不同的刑度最嚴重的可以處死刑當然依序往下無期徒刑或是有期徒刑再者 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14499.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14520.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
關於無期徒刑如何再加重的問題這是有鑒於286條第五項對於年幼的孩子有犯凌虐致死罪的話我們要加重期刑的二分之一那無期徒刑怎麼加重無期徒刑在我國目前的法治下刑法77條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14522.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14539.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
以及這個六十五條七十七條第一項是講有期徒刑二分之一可以報假釋無期徒刑超過二十五年關滿二十五年才可以報假釋那六十五條是說無期徒刑不得加重因此就會有出現這個漢格的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14541.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14565.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
這個前幾年的這個無期徒刑要如何來適用加重這裡當然前面有很多先進學者專家有提到說這是整個刑事處遇的政策問題當然我國是一個目前上擁有死刑制度的國家在面對沒有死刑的美國他是用終身監禁來替代 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14566.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14591.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
因此在我國的立法的選擇上當然就會擁有說擁有這個雙重選擇譬如說我們要以死刑擁有死刑為主還是說去除死刑以終身監禁無期徒刑不得假釋為主的立法選擇模式那這一點目前我是持這個比較保留的看法無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14593.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14608.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我個人是認為必須要把關滿25年這個25年再往上拉高拉高到30幾年或40幾年並不能一味的說要終身監禁 為什麼因為我們可以試想一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14611.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14635.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
用槍槍決我在打麻醉的狀況下比較痛苦還是說把你關關到你人生都沒希望關到無期徒刑終生監禁不得假釋比較痛苦當然這個部分還有要關於這個很多面向可以討論因此我提出這個部分來請大家這個可以來值得我們來做討論關於提綱的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14642.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14662.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
公民與政治權利國際公約第六條第二項規範禁止各地約國將情節非最重大之罪判處死刑這個所指情節最重大之罪是否限於直接故意而排除間接故意殺人罪在我國的一一三年憲判日第八號的判決理由書有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14665.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14680.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
在我國有法律未接的公正公約第六條第二項規定就尚未廢除死刑的國家故要求鎖定死刑僅得適用於最嚴重的犯罪但該公約並沒有就最嚴重的犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14686.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14710.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
進一步的具體化只有到一般性意見才有提到說僅限於故意殺人罪的極嚴重的罪行但是一般性的意見是否就代表著這個公約的本身內容這個我打一個很大的問號如果是可以代表那直接就訂入公約就好了因此我這邊個人的看法見解是認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14712.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14740.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
當然我國可以把這個情節最重大的罪把虐兒致死案把它納入其中這個是我們立法院的立法形成自由空間絕對不可以被侵害因此簡單講這個將虐兒致死案虐兒致死這個法律刑把它增加死刑這個法律效果應該是明確可行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14747.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14747.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14750.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14778.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
最後有關於被害人參與刑事訴訟制度是否有獨立上訴權、結論權跟證據調查申請權這個部分雖然我國刑事訴訟法第七篇之三已經有被害人訴訟參與的程序但是這個程序非常的不足在我自己職業的過程當中幫這個虐兒致死案的被害人這一邊的時候我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14779.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14800.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
基本上對於每一個程序法庭的活動被害人的家屬都很有話想要跟我講但是我跟他說因為我們沒有結問證人權沒有結問鑑定人的權利不能申請調查證據因此很多話 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14802.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14825.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
在按照當時候的在目前的法治下必須留到最後作為意見表達的時候審判長會給被害人給予最後的意見表達那因此呢導致被害人的家屬在很多原本想講的話當下沒辦法表達的時候到最後法庭結束的時候他 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14826.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14850.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
其實想講的話很多時間都錯過了剩下的就是一些剩下的就是一些話沒辦法完全的盡力表達所以目前我個人見解是認為說應該還是要把這個結論證人鑑定人申請調查證據的權利把它增訂以增加這個被害人訴訟上的權利以上 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14856.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14868.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那我謝謝大律師剛剛就有關無期徒刑 夾時間延長還有死刑的部分的見解 好 謝謝下一位我們請周律師發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14881.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14896.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
主席張委員還有在座各位學者專家團體跟機關先進大家好我是周瑋秀周律師時間其實已經中午了其實還是有蠻多專家跟代表團體在這邊我想其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14896.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14914.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
就可以看到各位對這個議題的重視那我也是要感謝就是召委能夠在這個議題上召開公聽會來跟各位做討論那我想在這個議題在討論的時候我必須要先講一下我自己個人的立場那我自己是那個13宪判8的申請方的代理人所以我自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14915.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14928.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
在價值觀的判斷上可能沒有辦法支持去擴大死刑跟這個無期徒刑不得假釋這樣子的一個制度的適用那當然說起來可能是迫大家冷水但是在這個對立的氣氛逐漸深耗的今天我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14929.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14945.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
在不同的立場裡面找到對話的空間還是很重要的所以我希望我能夠在這個虐兒的部分我從我自己的觀點來提供給大家一些其他的一個做法我自己的我自己的小孩有一位在這個前幾年經過了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14947.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14973.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
專業輔導判斷被檢查出來有一個特殊的狀況叫做選擇性緘默那這個選擇性緘默並不是一個在台灣的精神病學上被認定是一個精神病的狀況但是他的特色就是他沒有辦法跟熟人以外的人講話那輔導老師其實是跟我說因為可能是因為爸爸平常工作太忙沒有辦法跟小孩好好相處 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14975.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15004.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
所以才會有這個情形的發生因為他覺得不用講話就可以迴避很多的責任我想要說的是如果今天可以重新的用審判的方法給我很多的罪讓我抓去關然後可以讓我的小孩不用有這個病的話我其實非常非常願意我覺得我在這個社會我想要做一些事但我沒有辦法去好好顧我的家人這可能是我人生中非常非常大的罪過那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15006.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15009.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
同樣的道理是我想跟各位討論的問題是我們今天應該要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15010.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15038.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
照顧小孩的資源放在哪裡我知道大家都很憤怒大家都很希望把這個欺負小孩的人給他一個非常非常嚴重的對待但我們要同時面對的問題是這個社會的資源是有限的這個社會有很多被害人跟被害人的家屬他們是需要更多的支持的我不是一個真的很Qualified的父親我一直都在這幾年在很多的懊悔當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15039.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15056.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
但是我在想的問題是 我有沒有辦法讓其他人的小孩如果他真的有類似的狀況產生的時候他走到學校他不會被霸凌 他不會被老師忽視他不會被其他的家長覺得說 你是在拖累我小孩的學習 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15057.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15084.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我覺得這是一個很重要的一個議題所以很抱歉的是雖然主席跟公聽會這邊列了一個很龐大的提綱也非常具有討論價值但我希望我們能夠如同前面幾位的討論人更能夠聚焦在我們怎麼樣的去預防下一個這樣子的事情發生在我來看其實真正的問題可能是我們能不能夠去做到更好的社會連結如果可以的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15085.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15100.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
我希望我不用花那麼多的時間在外面在各處奔波我可以多花一點時間陪我的小孩那可是呢你愛你的小孩不代表別人也愛小孩啊就如同很多媽媽在把娃娃車推上公車的時候會被人家趕下車 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15102.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15127.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那當這個社會沒有辦法讓大家不計原因去愛小孩的時候我們要怎麼跟大家講說那個虐童的情形不會再發生因為虐童不一定是真正就是像凱凱恩這麼嚴重的毆打而是當一個小孩走在路上他會莫名其妙被路人講說你怎麼衣服沒有穿好你怎麼這麼熱還要穿外套的時候那也是一種對他身心的一種非常大的一個打擊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15127.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15156.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我必須要提醒各位一件事情是本案的被害如果我們以海岸來講的話這個被害人其實他就是來自於高風險的家庭那這個來自高風險家庭的小孩本來在成長的過程就很容易遭到各種的忽略還有歧視跟對待所以如果我們假設他能夠平安長大他可能還要歷經很多人生其他的關卡例如說不幸被別人知道原來他的父母親可能不是那麼善良的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15157.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15183.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那我們要怎麼去回應他說你平安長大之後我們相信你可以有一個值得你過的社會所以我對於如何的去評價這件事情可能也會同時的去討論說那我們要怎麼去看待在這個社會上的這個受刑人我們當然可以去很嚴格的指責他可是這個指責如果發生了一個月暈跟漣漪效應的時候這個會不會是我們想要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15183.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15210.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那這個是我會希望能夠在這個公聽會裡面嘗試在這個領域裡面再試圖跟大家對話的一個狀況而我再往下講的就是我也認為其實今天的專家團體們提到的一些配套措施是有它必要的例如說就算以我的立場我可能沒有那麼支持不得甲施但我也覺得你要去提升這個裡面的這個保安處分的相關機制我認為沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15212.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15240.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
但有一個現實是什麼剛剛應該是這個王理事長的簡報吧對不起我不一定記很清楚但是有提到的是可能可以仿照我們現在刑法的九十一條之一去做這個所謂的刑後強制治療那我要提醒各位的事情是說大法官其實在799號解釋又討論到一件事情是這個強制治療是不是真的有在治療還是它其實是刑事上的治療但實質上只產生了隔離的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15240.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15266.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以怎麼去規劃那個治療怎麼去思考說讓一個人他願意的去認清他不應該做這樣的事而他願意的去做改正我覺得可能單純的去觀察這個監獄政策 債範率很高可能不是這個問題的唯一出口而是當債範率更高的時候我們要問的是我們投入監獄的資源到底在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15267.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15290.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那在這個狀況之下我們再去思考這個矯正能不能夠得到一定的答案就如同剛剛其實也有一些資料顯示其實很多的虐案可能是盡情的行為那我們要怎麼去面對這樣子的一個家庭關係在犯罪結束甚至服刑結束之後他要怎麼樣重新的去做塑造 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15291.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15319.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
這個是我覺得應該要去再做討論的那最後我可能因為這是司法法治委員會但是可能可以有一些延伸的討論第一個的話其實是除了刑事責任之外相關的民事責任給予當事人的支持這點其實立法院在過去幾年修正被害者保護法的時候就已經做加強了但我覺得如果在虐案的部分其實更多的這種心理或者是社會架構的連結可能也是很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15320.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15349.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
那第二點的話就是那個對於家屬的支持因為當然每個家庭遇到的狀況不一樣我們要怎麼樣的讓一個家庭在受到衝擊在受到破壞的時候他能夠繼續的讓他的人生有意義存在讓這個家庭能夠繼續往前走那此外是剛剛幾位先生也有提到有關這個少事法跟特教法的修正那其實實務上據我所知其實學校在做IEP的 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15350.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15372.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
不是沒有只是那個IEP的到底是一個形式上的執行還是它實質上真的有在做這個我覺得我們可能可以再去做一些討論那最後我想這個今天的目標當然以立法院這個最高民意機關我覺得回應民意或者甚至應該說行政機關回應民意是一個很 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15373.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15382.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
很重要的事情那只是回應民意他不一定是完全百分之百跟著民意走吳寧說是當民意出現的時候我們怎麼樣的去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15383.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15412.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
去找到合理去找到那個病徵並且去做對症下藥就如同我們在討論前幾天不幸的這個北大國小的車禍案件的時候我們在思考的可能是交通問題我們在思考的可能是這個老人駕車的問題抑或是怒怒症的問題那而不要一下子就把問題就導向就是我要怎麼去懲罰這一個做出事的人即便他確實應該受到懲罰那以上是我簡單的發言那跟主席抱歉我可能等一下會先離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15413.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15437.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那這個是跟各位做的一個可能不算是專家但是是一個心得的分享謝謝各位好那我們謝謝周律師的寶貴意見今天公立會其實就是要建立一個平台讓大家能夠多討論而且我們把一些意見民間的想法告訴法務部讓法務部能夠多聆聽好那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15452.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15479.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
謝謝主席今天安排這麼重要一個公聽會也謝謝這麼多專家寫者還有我們的行政部門在這邊傾聽共同來解決問題今天我們談內同案談凱凱老蔣是很不捨的心疼大家都知道我以前在電視主持節目 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15481.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15507.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
每次談到內同的這個案子我都拜託說那個馬賽克一定要打然後我拜託我的來賓啊有些細節不要講得太細因為太不忍了看到那個畫面講起那個凱凱他想起那個凱凱一歲半的一個小孩子被那種虐待那是多心疼的一個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15510.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15536.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
我本身大學練的是社會系我好多朋友好多同學學長學弟妹們都在社福的體系裡面工作社工園生命線在第一線我也深深的了解我們的兒少的保護體系是非常弱勢的很多地方很多地方真的非常的無力感 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15538.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15565.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
所以今天一方面謝謝主席排的這麼重要的會一方面我想要明白的表達面對層出不窮而且是越來越嚴重的兒童內帶案政府包括立法院我覺得包括全民應該是有責任去解決這問題的包括法律它如果是正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15568.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15597.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
他應該是要解決問題的而不是一直在製造問題的從這次凱凱案大家回過頭通案去看這段時間的這個兒童虐待案就是在一直在增加當中嘛剛講凱凱案我看今天大家有談到一個案子2015年花蓮發生情侶一對情侶他用七大酷刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15600.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15628.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
他內帶了一個三歲的小女童死刑案那時候大家知道嗎2017年這個案子後來判了多少年一條人命兒童內帶那麼嚴重慘不忍睹判13年6個月實際上服刑只有6年多那這不是個案絕大部分那種慘絕人倫讓人家心痛心疼那種兒童送內案 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15630.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15659.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
都判得很輕啦 不要說無極徒刑判得很輕一半的時間又放出來了然後你就看到案子一直一直在增加我們是不是應該挺身而出要讓這些悲劇不要再發生呢所以台灣民眾黨非常具體的提出來對於兒童內帶致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15660.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15688.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
最重死刑或無期徒刑 可是這個無期徒刑要引進像歐盟這樣 要是一個終身監禁 不得假釋我很高興 我剛剛也問了法務部好像大家也比較慢慢有往這個方向在走事實上前幾天聽到法務部說已經有14萬人連署要求要重罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15690.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15716.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
要判死刑或者是剛剛民眾黨提的無期徒刑法務部有一度說不宜採納還好還好今天經過這段時間的溝通今天看起來是有好的答案了很期待法務部三個月內嘛三個月內而且往這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15717.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15742.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
法律是要解決問題的我們很期待透過我們法律的修法讓悲劇可以不要再發生在大法官會議大法官提名的時候我有跟中線一起邀了很多受害者的家屬請聽他們的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15746.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15772.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
包括獅頭獎米教師的家屬包括台南有兩位英勇的員警不幸殉職他們的家屬來我知道今天也有受害者的家屬在現場齊凱必須跟大家講那天我跟鍾憲在傾聽受害者的家屬的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15775.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15804.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
你是難過的因為你很難想像一個人受到那麼大的一個折磨跟無奈另外一個發現是什麼發現我們現在台灣的社會不只是法律甚至整個社會裡面對加害者的保護跟提供幫助非常非常的周到相對之下被害人包括被害者的家屬是非常的無奈的像那一天兩位警察的 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15806.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15835.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
他們家屬來 他們說啊他們無力 所以他們頂多只能找到一位律師可是呢 法服啊 或者一些團體他們拿我們人民的納稅錢我們去補助了法服 協助了法服法服去幫他們找了很多的律師去幫加害人台灣現在的法律跟我們現在社會上的一個就是在這個 本來是公平的一個司法現在看起來是嚴重傾斜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15836.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15846.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
就包括我們今天在談的 售內小孩已經那麼可憐了他售內是死了誰幫他們講話呢好 最後我做個簡單的這個總結今天我剛聆聽了多位這個學者專家包括家長還有教育團體他們甚至都做了一個民調了 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15865.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15893.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
而且從最近的這個民調大家也看得很清楚不只那麼多人上街抗議有高達將近14萬人已經連署了我覺得從法務部一直到立法委員跟我們全民要去回應民意特別是內統這個案子一直在發生而且一直沒有一個解決的方案顯然他的遏止力是有問題的我們希望這個悲劇不要再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15894.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15917.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
所以拜託大家今天我們當然是傾聽各方面的這個意見不過今天聽下來很清楚的很多民眾都認為應該是要解決問題的很期待三個月後我們可以看到法務部一個符合全民而且是可以讓悲劇不要再發生的一個修正案 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請吳嘉琳律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15925.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15944.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
主席各位專家然後各位長官大家好那我是橫沿法律事務所的吳嘉玲律師那其實我的經驗比較特殊啦就是因為我之前有從事刑事審判的工作那其實我也有審理過就是很重大的殺人的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15944.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15965.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那當然我不會去討論我之前審理過的個案啦但是因為後來我轉任律師之後其實我也有在世界各地有旅居過啦那其實我覺得這個問題其實在討論到法律問題之前我覺得我個人的心得其實覺得所有的憾事大家都不希望發生但所有的憾事其實都是起源於家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15966.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15985.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那我走過了很多的國家我自己至少覺得台灣其實做的目前是還是很不夠的以我待過新加坡而言我覺得新加坡很他很重視家庭的這個角色因為其實所有的問題都是來自於家庭功能的失去了功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15985.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16011.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那整個社會對於家庭的支持不管是說針對小孩的支持工作上的支持我覺得台灣都是很不夠的那只要家庭的功能是健全的其實本質上我們或許今天在討論這個議題的時候其實大家就不用再這麼針鋒相對因為事情會少很多好那我先進入一下法律的問題好了因為針對第一個討論的提綱其實我個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16013.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16031.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
以一個民眾的角度來看,當大家看到刑法328條針對強盜致死有死刑的時候,但是卻看到凌虐兒童致死卻沒有死刑的時候,我想其實一般合理的第三人都是沒有辦法接受的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16032.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16059.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
這個我覺得應該是無庸置疑的但我只是覺得這是從一般民眾的角度來看但我只是想要提醒立法的諸公要考慮幾點首先當然前面的很多人有提到就是關於公正公約因為內國法化之後有提到說只有最嚴重的罪才能處以死刑這個我想大家也沒有任何的疑問那現在我覺得修法最大的阻礙應該是最新的憲法法庭的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16060.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16086.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
那其實我也無意去做評論那當然憲法法庭他認為說只有直接故意才有死刑的空間的情況下到底立法者還可不可以去突破這個憲法法庭的見解然後去增定一個死刑我覺得這個是一個念法律多年的人心眼的第一個疑惑那我必須老講以我個人立場來講我個人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16088.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16094.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
比較傾向於各個憲法上的機關應該要去透過自己憲法上所賦予的權利來進行對話 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16096.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16120.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
白話點來講就是我不覺得立法機關必須要當然的受到憲法法庭的絕對的100%的拘束老實講如果是受到100%的拘束我想今天大家也不用在這裡討論說我到底要不要加一個死刑因為憲法法庭它已經有一個很具體的介面甚至有很嚴格的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16121.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16144.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所以我個人覺得其實或許的情況下會變成說就算立法進行了修法會變成說那是不是接下來憲法法庭又要再透過其他的個案再來表示意見透過一個在憲法制度下大家有一個在繼續溝通的空間這個我覺得是可以思考的啦那當然其實我個人對於所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16145.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16157.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
間接故意是不是就不能判死我我自己也是打一個很大的問號因為如果有從事刑事懲判職務其實大家會知道其實社會所有的社會的案件其實太陽太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16158.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16186.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
直接造成直接的故意是不是所有的案子直接故意當然它的可規則性就一定大於間接故意這個我覺得是要打一個很大的問號的因為間接故意造成的傷害它的範圍我先講生命權的個數有可能都有可能在個案中會超過了直接故意所造成的死亡的人數那這個到底怎麼去衡量更何況其實在司法審判實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16187.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16215.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那個直接故意跟間接故意我自己認為其實都是一念之間因為你沒有辦法把一個人腦袋撥開來然後說你到底是直接故意還是間接故意所以最後會變成說法官他在判斷的時候他可能有時候會採取最有利於最有利於被告的原則所以他只能去認定間接故意但是實際上他造成的生命權的危害可能是相對於直接故意是更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16216.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16244.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
所以我個人其實沒有不覺得說直接故意才有死刑這個命題我個人是抱持一個很大的疑問的那當然現在是第二個問題就是也是這一次修法很大的問題是關於那個無期徒刑不得假釋老實講我個人是蠻反對這樣的一個做法的因為我覺得其實有期徒刑或無期徒刑所有的刑罰都是要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16246.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16275.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
犯罪行為的人可以復歸社會當然無期徒刑有些人可能會說他沒有辦法復歸社會了但我覺得有一個很大的問題是當你一個沒有辦法假釋的無期徒刑去執行的時候在監所的面向而言他到底怎麼去管理這一個受刑人這是個很大的問題因為你要把他永遠隔絕於社會但是他還是存在在台灣的社會裡面只是大家把他放在監所裡面大家永遠都不想跟他接觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16276.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16302.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
但這個真的是可行的嗎我也是打一個很大的問號但是我基本上我是反對說以假釋制度針對無期徒刑而言讓他在很早的時間內就讓他可以不用再受到刑的指引這個我是當然是絕對贊成的只是說在這個讓他怎麼決定假釋而且加上現在假釋的決定我認為其實是可以更加的透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16302.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16320.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
讓民眾可以知道說針對特定個案的假釋到底是怎麼做成的決定然後跟相關在參與這個決定的專家他發表了什麼意見我覺得這個適度的透明應該是要讓民眾可以知道的不然其實民眾都只看到結果而沒看到過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16321.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16334.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我相信以台灣民眾的目前的公民的社會的法治的素養其實在大家看到了這些透明化的東西我相信大家都會有所思考有所反思這樣其實這個社會才會繼續進步 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16337.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16363.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那這樣其實我覺得就是關於那個無期徒刑不得不得假釋其實也會可能會違反那個兩公約已經內國法案的兩公約啊因為其實大家如果知道啊其實不得假釋的無期徒刑其實歐洲人的法院我印象中應該是有個個案是已經認為說這個已經構成那個所謂的殘酷的刑罰啦就完全不得假釋是構成那再加上再回到那個公正公約它又已經內國法化的情況下如果要去增訂這個條文我覺得是會有違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16365.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16369.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
公正公約的規定的嫌疑那這個部分可能是大家要注意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16373.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16395.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
好那關於最後一個問題就關於那個被害人的訴訟參與權我個人在刑事審判實務的過程中我個人是支持說要增加這個被害人的角色但是我會建議說其實立法者在考慮的時候要注意一個因為刑事訴訟的制度在這五到十年來有了非常大的變革 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16396.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16423.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
但就我從審判者跟辯護人的角度觀察很多時候最終都留於刑事就是所有都是就是你為了通知而通知然後你為了要讓他來而讓他來但大家沒有想到一個問題是在有些狀況下被害人他真的想來嗎然後跟你應該要怎麼樣實質的讓他有機會來表達意見而不是造成二次的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16424.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16451.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
那再加上那個關於那個虐童案的備案其實我不確定大家有沒有注意到其實除了那個參與刑事訴訟之後的上訴權、結論權的部分其實目前的那個兒少保護法其實有針對兒童及少年犯罪其實是可以獨立告訴的啦所以其實現在現行法其實已經有一些制度來針對這個情況下去適度的保護這個沒有辦法自己表達意見的一些兒童的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16452.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16468.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那當然我覺得其實在改革的過程中應該要去考慮一個問題就是當這些制度套用到刑事審判的制度的時候如何不要讓它留於刑事然後在不要留於刑事的過程中到底要怎麼樣是真正的讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16470.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16488.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
被害人的聲音是可以被表達出來的那這個因為我剛剛有聽到剛剛有專家有提到提到說是不是讓有一個被害人的代理人的制度嗎被害人的強制代理我覺得這是個蠻好的制度啦就是說讓被害人的聲音你不一定要讓他直接到法庭上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16489.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16512.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
那你有透過一個代理或強制代理的制度其實你也是實質的才能實質的保讓被害人的聲音他有得到了一個有專業的意見讓他了解整個程序的過程然後也讓他在這個程序中他的程序受到了保障那以上是我的意見 謝謝好 謝謝大律師給我們不同的思考面向那下一位我們請林志豪理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16524.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16549.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
主席我能不能跟您一個請求因為今天唯一的被害者家屬跟我共用時間好沒問題就請上台朱律師是我們割喉案的割喉案那一件有見過好請開始那我們就我先讓被害人今天他是唯一的嘛我先讓他講然後我再來講好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16555.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16580.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
趙偉還有各位長官大家好少年事件保護法我說這個保護法都是在保護這些犯罪的人嗎對於被害者的權利反而被剝奪被害人僅有抗告權資訊獲取權 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16583.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16606.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
亦非當事人或訴訟參與人難道這些罪犯的人權才是人權被害者的人權被害者就該被漠視嗎整個少司法保護非法可以無限上綱嗎司法少年可以擁有至高的殺人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16607.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16636.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
法院可以重疊的給予優渥的處遇再減刑對於少年割喉案事件一審判決已沒有無期徒刑跟死刑然後先減刑判八到九年之後還可以再減刑三年就可以回歸社會然後還前科徒銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16639.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16661.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這是邵氏吧不是不就是黑箱一個黑箱一個貨源嗎沒關係慢慢講慢慢講第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16676.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16684.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
很感謝今天的主席中線委員你們所屬的法治委員會司法法治委員會還有國民黨黨官紅衛委員還有靖榮律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16706.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16732.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
你們所有的有形無形的對被愛者的家屬我們都放在心上滴水之恩 永泉相報知恩感恩 感情才會深在從去年的12月3號中宣委員跟我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16734.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16754.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
為了大法官釋憲 憲判八號產生後續的處理結果呢 是什麼法官都是你們來當好人被害人形同孤兒如同我今天準備的這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16756.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16784.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
刑事訴訟司法制度中結構性的不正義被害人長期被邊緣化形同在法庭上的孤兒那我又舉了在第六頁12345這麼多的案例尤其一直到前一陣子高雄碎屍惡魔無期假釋他在二十幾年前已經是殺了人那你們還讓他放出來然後又有這麼多無辜的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16786.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16809.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
所以說我們生命權平等協會我們非常的痛心在死刑執行的國家日本跟美國目前根本沒有量刑鑑定那現在我的協會目前全台灣社會重大矚目案件全部都在我的協會高雄屍奪獎案台灣殺警案 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16816.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16840.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
還有戈壕案新北獨駕殺警案還有讓我們國家非常丟臉的馬來西亞長榮女大生劍殺案他們的父母他們的同胞告訴我們我是送小孩子來讀書的 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16845.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16868.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
不是來送死的那我們當今我們所面臨的我們不能去講空話講大話講冠冕堂皇的話中憲召委紅衛委員還有國昌委員今天講的都非常的好七海委員都講的非常好包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16869.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16885.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
那個村北議委員也都說了還有我們的民團的友人那個妮妮還有蕭理事長還有李小姐還有王理事長我們到底是需要的是什麼樣的一個社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16887.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16915.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
你難道要讓這些被害人明明在這個我們目前的訴訟的體制中被害人就是一個附屬品嘛你就是只能在辯論終點的時候對量刑的你把意見 可是法官也不一定要有意見啊好 憲判製說什麼叫做最嚴重的犯刑那我請問一下今天因為司徒講我的榮譽理事長沒有在我才敢講 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16916.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16922.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
不然我講說實在這對他是一個很大的傷害他眼淚已經流乾了搶劫性侵凌虐用榔頭敲了十字架敲到腦漿都出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16935.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16949.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
然後還把乳頭咬掉這樣不是最嚴重的犯罪我請問你你們司法院所屬的在座的每一個人你告訴我這樣不是最嚴重的犯罪嗎全台灣還有什麼比這個更嚴重的犯罪結果你們司法霸凌他怎麼司法霸凌呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16963.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16980.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
高分檢高大方檢察官竟然冷血他說最高法院齁沒有不是判死刑啦所以你不需要知道啦你不需要知道怎麼判的啦法官到底有沒有一致決 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16981.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17009.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
就公文給他可以這樣嗎我連我太太被強姦強暴凌虐致死連乳頭都咬掉我連知道說我太太你們法官怎麼判的要是怎麼死的都連這樣最卑微的請求都沒有今天你們看到我的我寫的這些這些都全部都是被害人所寫的我就只是很簡單的問了一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17010.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17029.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
我們將心比心,異地有處今天換成是你,尤其是我們在座的女生你們有太太,有小孩,有媽媽你們包括凱凱這種,還有戈厚安他講到朱理事,我的理事,他講到說不出話來 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17032.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17058.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我今天我在還沒上台之前我有跟廳長說我說我們今天不是來吵架的我們是來解決問題的我非常感謝中憲委員中憲委員真的就是弱勢團體的代表他過去一年來對這些所有弱勢的被害人所有的還有金融律師 紅衛委員一直給我們很大的幫助那我只想講 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17060.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17071.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
我們我們到底有沒有要解決這個社會問題你不能好人都你來當啊然後我們這些我們這些被害人形同孤兒一樣啊所以說面對邪惡卻保持緘默就是邪惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17085.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17106.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
上帝不會判定我們無辜不說話也等於說話不作為也是一種作為我們現在的司法制度不是這樣子嗎我們不能僅僅為那些不公平之輪所碾壓的傷者司法霸凌的被害人更要修正司法這輪子的本身人性的醜陋就是對強者極度的寬容對我們這些被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17116.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17132.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
在法庭上連說話的權利都沒有連獨立上訴權都沒有剛剛那個蔡主任檢察官還有林玉順教授所有他們都講得很好啊我們連罪在法庭上受到的尊重都沒有連席位都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17133.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17150.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
所以你在這些強者殺害人家的被告你在替他們很寬容的找盡了所有刑事訴訟法以被告為主導然後把被害人全部的權利通通都沒有所以說我希望每一個人當你不管你是法律人還是非法律人這是台大榮譽教授黃仲堅所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17164.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17189.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
當你在做一個法律主張的時候至少都每一個人都要有一個道德的義務永續的思考不斷的去求知問自己這樣公平嗎被害人這樣公平嗎死人是不會說話的那活的人你又不讓他說話那這個社會上的公理正義到底在哪裡所以說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17190.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17218.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
中線委員辦了這個國民黨團辦了這個公聽會你們創造一個歷史我也希望可以立下一個典範所謂立下一個典範是在我們的刑事訴訟法在被害人參與訴訟的這個過程中可以形成三讀的立法你們都是我們的恩人也是我們被害人的恩人所以滴水之恩用泉相報那我再讓那個我的助理是講一下話好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17221.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17236.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
我把那個整個案件先講一下就是他在發生事情前郭先生就已經有經常攜帶危險器械彈簧刀法院並沒有適當的管理將其放任這個是第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17237.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17261.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
第二件事情是郭生跟林生他本來就有共同犯案的前科那這個案子沒有結束之後就將這兩個人陸續回歸學校而且他是同時回歸到清水高中、富社國中這個是第二個放任他們要給這兩個殺人犯授教權 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
17264.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17290.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
卻剝奪了誠信寶貴的生命一審法官還強行碾壓公平正義給予輕判少事法的條文不是大字寫著保障少年健全自我成長環境這句話難道不包含保障生命安全嗎還是說少事法只是保障非法然後可以踐踏碾壓生命的大法 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17300.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17314.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
再來我們要講就是說法律判案最重要的是講求證據那我們為了這個刑事案件能夠順利的進行在鄉議院報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17316.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17343.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
的時候就已經有講到說有幾乎快10刀的證據可是為了說要能夠讓兇手能夠得到更明確的證據所以我們除了相驗報告的這個證據之外我們還必須要再讓已經受到重大傷殘的兒子再做一次解剖 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17344.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17364.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
然後才可以得到更有力的證據還是要忍痛去做那判決書說他們之前這兩個人沒有任何的刑事案件所以呢就 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17367.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17395.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
就幫他們做檢刑問題是他們因為邵氏法的原因他們都做行政處遇當然就是不會有所刑事案刑事的部分啊都已經檢刑過了當然不會有啊然後一審法官竟然這樣子冠冕堂皇的就寫沒有刑事案件然後睜眼說瞎話幫忙做一個檢刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17396.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17408.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
然後再說他們什麼家庭教育環境不髒原生環境不良這個是我們造成他們的傷害嗎這個也可以作為減刑的依據嗎然後再又引用判決書上說第18條14歲未滿18歲的行為人 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17422.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17452.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
得減刑可是問題是得減刑法官他還是有他的裁量權啊不是必減刑那犯下殺人罪還要幫他減刑這個理由真的是很牽強明眼的人看到就知道說這個是法官在霸凌我們被害者家屬一個孩子我們生養十幾年他隨便一句話說沒事就沒事 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17456.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17481.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那剛剛講的就是事前的這些這些就是已經攜帶器械啊然後為什麼可以回歸學校這個啊我們都有去教育部教育局然後甚至司法單位我們都有去陳情然後請他們告訴我們說他們到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17482.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17509.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
是哪一個階段沒有跟學校講好或是說司法院的少保官沒有通知學校到底是哪一個階段出了差錯可是問題是我們都會回到一個答案就是因為個資保保護因為少資保保護所以這個不能夠告知就是保密的意思拿這個來搪塞我們的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17512.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17533.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
難道說我們被害者陳勳被殘忍傷害之後還要受國家制度再抹煞一次嗎?再重傷一次嗎?然後講到正能的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17535.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17557.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
同為青少年的A1 也是他們的同學出庭作證 肇事法在講保護可是他對證人並沒有去保護他他要求我們的證人必須要當場跟那兩個殺人犯對峙 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17562.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17582.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
這對未來如果說他們真的就是判個三年之後回歸社會難道說法律可以保障他們的生命安全嗎難道說他們不會被這兩個人再追殺嗎他在學校都可以這樣兇殘一直追殺我兒子到死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17605.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17615.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
事發的當時鈴聲挑起這個過程其實時間很短鈴聲挑起然後叫郭聲進到教室然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17618.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17627.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
然後他同學有另外一個同學要去他有看到那個郭生有要掏刀郭生要去阻止的時候林生就叫他滾開 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17630.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17647.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
然後沒你的事情然後就說打死他 給他死然後他很開心在旁邊笑這個法院都有證據存在然後郭生就很瞬間的殺了七刀都是頸動脈 心肺 腎臟這樣子殺這樣還不夠凶殘嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17658.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17678.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
陳馨就是在這種被使命追殺的狀態在學校就已經生命中止了法官竟然不以此做判斷然後找一堆牽強的理由做減刑一身法官可以無限上綱的重犯殺人犯才在孩子血淋淋的屍體做未減刑而減刑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17692.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17705.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
然後法官認定鄰女有串證的事實這些他們也沒有把他加重罪行啊再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17707.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17728.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
他當初刀子是從哪裡收出來的是警察到校之後才從郭聲身上肉收出來的不是他自己繳出來的他這個也有逃避責任的現場他現行犯他當場也是逃避責任這個不重責不加重然後減刑再減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17733.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17758.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
林女士事後,她是完全不承認有這件事情問題是事情是她挑起來的而且他們都是邵氏把保護下的雷犯這些都應該是要加重罪行結果卻相反,一直在保護他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17767.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17796.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
很抱歉他講的有一點隱藏因為他從兒子被殺害到現在根本從頭到尾沒有一次可以好好讓他暢所欲言所以我今天你們的寬容也是一種修復式的正義也是一種撫慰人心的對家屬的一個安慰那我也非常感謝中線委員然後等一下燕秀委員跟全民委員也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17797.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17824.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
安撫我們被害人家屬他實在是因為他從來沒有講過話從來沒辦法表達在法庭上講的話也沒有幾分鐘法官就不讓他講了法官說我們小孩的名字不可以出現在社會大眾被殺的小孩還要從此被隱姓埋名然後從此沒落在這個世界當中這個是什麼道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17826.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17853.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
我連講我兒子被殺都不能講說要用違反各執法要辦我們那我就跟他們夫妻講你來辦我吧我自首啊我兒子被殺我講出他的名字我不能講有這種事我兒子被殺了我連吭聲都不能吭聲我的訴訟權利都沒有真的太離譜了啦我們人跟人之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17855.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17878.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
至少要有一種同理心我們今天我不是要批評在場的政府官員或是什麼 不是我們是要如何去落實真正的修復式正義避免下一個被害人再發生所以這也是中宪委員長久以來一直站在弱勢他選擇站在雞蛋的那一方 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17879.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17887.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
跟國常委員他們兩個人講話一定是認定事實絕對憑證據的嘛但是有些人就偏偏要要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17890.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17915.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
模糊焦點混淆增點然後偷換概念他們講的意思真的今天是第一次我相信也是第二次那我在此下個禮拜5月27號我們生命權平等協會會開了一個研討會在1014那我們所有的當天所有的被害人目前全台灣社會重大矚目安全被害人全部都會來現身說法那我們今天講到這邊好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17917.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17933.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
這個後面我再講一下這個案件還在上訴當中我希望就是高等法院的法官可以還給我們程序一個公平正義不要讓孩子在這樣子殘殺之後還讓他成冤莫白這也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17935.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17962.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
台灣少年事件處理法改革之後的第一個案件如果以此為案例以後少年如果凶殘夠凶殘就是他們的天下我希望不要發生這種事情再次的在這邊跟各位長官還有就是各位專家講如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17966.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17983.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
就是高等法院上訴之後能夠還給我們一個真正的公平他已經沒有死刑沒有無期徒刑已經很糟糕了不要說他們什麼虐兒事件無期徒刑我們連30年都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17984.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18001.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
只判八年跟九年然後三年就可以假釋然後不只這樣子他剛剛所講的證人有可能會被追殺替他們作證的證人還有他們的家人還有我司徒獎司徒獎的被害人殺警案的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18002.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18023.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
他們每一個人害怕得要死啊全部一個家分在住四個地方不敢住在同一個地方啊這是事實啊任何一個人講真話講實話應該都是要受到我們這個社會的聲援支持發聲站出來不是這樣嗎如果你今天事不關己明天你就會身不由己 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18024.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18037.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
不是這樣嗎所以我希望法務部跟司法院可以跟我們對話可以跟我們生命平等權對話我是可以跟你們搭起一個這樣的橋樑賴總統在兩個禮拜前為了我協會另外一個理事軍用案17年 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18041.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18062.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
我也幫他辦了一個追思會空軍事運部也辦了一個追思會我們不是要來鬧事的我們被害人只是最卑微的請求就像我們的資料這邊還有我的名片的背後我們邀的那個只是最基本的人權非常謝謝等一下感謝瓊英委員跟燕秀委員幫我們媽媽加油一下謝謝最後感謝趙偉還有各位就是長官還有各位專家謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18071.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18099.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
謝謝喔我想我剛我來回應一下因為我自己當局長在新北當局長的時候就已經就已經接觸到這個戈侯案所以我心裡感觸很深那我的心也是露座的這個金恩博士說的話社會的悲劇不是壞人的囂張是好人的沉默 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18101.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18129.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
因為這幾年我一直跟著那個家屬所以我心裡很有感觸剛好在當新北局長的時候就有接觸到這件那個割喉案那我想說徐市長張小雯市長還有那個劉怡婷的主任檢察官還有兩位廳長其實我們我們以前當司法官我們就是對抗這些邪惡我們都看過很多刑案現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18131.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18154.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
我們也看過很多解剖很多被害人家屬的那種心痛欲絕所以我一直說我不是說雙手支持死刑這樣子因為有時候你不得不啦這是社會的問題我也不是廝殺我也不喜歡奪人性命但是我就常講一句話叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18156.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18183.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
殺生為眾生斬業非斬人我不是在取他的命我是在維護眾生所以我一直希望說我們站出來要站在家屬的角度去思考很多事情所以這個案子我覺得這案子我要一路看下去尤其是我到立法院有很多被害家屬每一個案子都是痛徹心扉那個父母到我面前 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18185.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18211.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
抱頭痛哭你沒有辦法想像所以我是說我們自己思考我們的小孩他發燒或跌倒破一個小洞我們就心情痛就很痛希望替小孩承擔更何況那父母小孩被殺死就我們的司法讓他們變成是我國司法的孤兒沒有人在幫他我看到的是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18213.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18239.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
所以 所有的事情 我覺得我們都可以忍你看我們來自於政治的攻擊 輕鳥的 或這些政治的謾罵我們都不覺得 我都不當一回事但是我就說 我在面對這些死者的家屬我常 心裡過不去 我覺得對不起他們麻煩各位跟我一起 要為這個國家 為 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18241.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18250.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
這些受害的家屬 我們真的要努力下去 謝謝各位不好意思現在我們請楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18262.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
18286.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
我想首先給剛剛的媽媽加油,我們都愛你我們都會一起把這個社會導向更正面我謝謝中心委員、召委能夠排定今天這個平台我認為在立法院我從政那麼久,經歷過的事件非常非常的多 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
18289.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
18312.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
家屬一聲吶喊說 惠恩 很可憐的啊 怎麼還要解剖我們真的不知道該怎麼安慰這個家屬但是我們又希望能夠找出真相這三十幾年來 我碰到了很多的這些案例我希望我們的社會是祥和的 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
18314.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
18343.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
早上一早我來登記發言的時候有一個媽媽在外面她跟著記者我從側面過去我真的我也眼淚流下來她一直吶喊說為什麼我們台灣社會這個社會的氛圍怎麼變成這個樣子當時我真的很想要抱抱她不過我們還是要勇敢的去面對我想我們還是有方法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
18347.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
18349.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
衛護部在今年四月份的時候 它有一個統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
18352.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
18377.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
在這最近五年國內的孽嬰嬰兒受虐的比例它是增長的而且我們看統計到去年2024年五月份它的比例是前一年度的1.2倍換句話說每一年有將近兩千名的孩童受虐有九成三的對象是家內事件施虐的是以父母的占比84% |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
18379.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18396.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
那祖父母的部分呢 親屬的部分大概是這個12%父母同居人的部分大概是4%其餘的部分呢 是這個家外事件發生那它多數多數發生在托育照顧的這個場域裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18399.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18418.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
所以我們要統計一個數字每一年有26名的兒少呢遭到照顧者不當的對待導致嚴重的傷害或失望在這些重大的傷害當中事件當中我們看到又有其中有五成都是判定惱死的 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18419.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18429.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
腦部受傷的而且甚至還有25%他是不治身亡的那在這75%以外他可能造成他終生不可逆的一個傷害所以我們看到這樣子的數據告訴我們這些腦傷案大概有九成他發生在兩歲以下的幼兒那可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18447.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18462.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
將害者他一時的情緒失控不當的對待對於孩童造成的永久性的這個嚴重傷害我想虐童案呢到目前我講的這個社會面向的數字告訴社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18466.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18494.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
虐童案的發生民眾是不斷的在憤怒那麼之前的凱凱案甚至有民眾號召上街頭呼籲必須在刑法徵定虐殺兒童罪也有民眾到我們行政院公共政策網路參與的這個平台他去提議希望修法增加凌虐兒童的行動呢凌虐之死者最高可以判處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18495.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18524.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
而且是不得來假釋這是人民怒吼憤怒的一個建言在我們行政院的這個平台但是我看到法務部在第一時間是不予採納是不予採納但是還好最後法務部鄭部長也改口了他表示劣童行為人神共憤天理難容 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18525.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18545.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
所以 應當要正言義 更周延的法律來保護還好政府有講出了這一句話那本席認為 我們今天充分的聽到各方的意見尤其目前在少子化的這個社會當中每一個孩子都是寶貝 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18547.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18571.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
所以因此我們更有這個義務要好好的保護這些孩子的權利讓孩子快樂學習成長這是一個民主國家最基本的必要條件應當要做到的所以我看到有很多的孩子他還小他甚至連求救的吶喊聲都還來不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18576.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18604.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
如果像這樣的現象一直持續的在發生那我們這個社會要如何的來形容所以我認為導致兒童死亡暴力的受虐的這一些犯行惡劣毫無人性我們應該要提升幼童凌虐致死者的最高刑度是有必要的是有必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18605.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18632.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
所以因此提高刑責是民意但是更是一個態度的一個展現讓虐頭案不要再發生讓虐童的犯人應該受到應有的一個懲罰用修法來展現我們保護孩童的一個決心用具體的行動來宣告台灣不接受這樣子的惡劣的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18633.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18652.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
完善的一個法律制度才能夠真正的保護我們兒少的一個權益所以我心情蠻澎湃的因為很多的以前的陳情案歷歷在我的腦海中我真的真的要拜託大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18652.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18667.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
今天他們都願意出來願意出來講我們的行政部門請你們務必要詳細的來展示我們到底要怎麼樣保護我們的兒少我楊瓊怡一定會全力以赴謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請李彥秀委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18686.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18710.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
感謝朝偉今天排了這個議題公聽會的時間非常長從今天早上九點到現在一視同仁都沒有休息我相信這個議題對社會來說是一個相當大的共鳴無論剛才最後聽到楊理事長林理事長所反應的還有包括楊媽媽她切身的痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18712.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18726.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我相信國人是有很多的感慨我們社會安全網要網住每一個孩子剛才也提到修復式的正義其實對於受害的家屬來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18728.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18744.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
相對是重要的所以我們如何在我們虐童的刑責的檢討當中能夠讓受害的家屬得到一些平復我覺得這也是我們這一次修法的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18745.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18766.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
也因此在這邊我提出未來如何終結而虐的五支箭要補足兒少保護法的破網我也提出一些建議如果大家印象還深刻的時候大家應該記得小桃子在2022年11月送到保母家卻因為顱內出血後來造成來不及長大就斷送了性命這個個案當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18770.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18795.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
很多雙薪的家庭把孩子送到保母家 大家都在看大家也都有非常的擔憂 但這個案子到最後那個加害人最後在判有期徒刑9年3個月的定業執行4年半就可以假釋對於加害者的惡性跟被害者的無辜這樣的刑度是不是符合我們所謂我們常在喊的公平正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18797.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18823.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
很多刑度包括違反什麼相關金融的都有10年15年但是對於這樣的一個個案我們現在台灣孩子已經是少子化政府如何把社安網網住每一個孩子其實是相對重要政府在刑度有一定的嚇阻作用除了嚇阻作用之外對於修復的正義剛才林理事長所提的也非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18824.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18844.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
所以第二我們在國內法化的兒童權利公約當中其實也明文的規定我們要盡最大的可能來保護我們的兒童的生存更要保護兒童不會受到任何形式的身心的暴力傷害跟虐待任何一個孩子他可以保障他應該有的固有的生命權 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18846.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18863.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
但是我們卻仍舊不斷地在台灣看到我們兒虐事件遭到侵犯我們現在規定的刑度高低差距事實上是非常的大所以也因此我們今天召委安排了一個回應民意對於虐童刑責的總檢討我覺得是相對的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18865.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18886.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
未來如何對社會大眾傳遞我們對於兒童兒孽案件的深惡痛絕的決心所以這個刑度的討論我覺得是有必要請司法院跟法務部我們必須要深刻來去做檢討來回應所有的民意所以為了讓制度成為保護孩童最堅實的後盾刑罰未來也應該成為社會最強硬的力量我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18892.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18912.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
我們應該來去參考兒童權利公約的體系從事前事中跟事後我們司法介入不同層面來持續的去做檢討也非常的重要那另外在事前的部分我真的建議包括在未還委員會我常常在講未來如何建立兒少的保護專責的部會包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18915.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18937.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
增設我們相關的兒少保護業務的公務人員以增加房市的助理員提升我們房市的功能這個也都是可以我們進一步的去做討論這些都能夠打開保護兒童的觸角進而預防遺憾的事情發生最後我再次提醒未來如何提升相關調查人員的勢能 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18939.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18949.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
包括所有的脆弱的家庭包括中高風險的家庭我們如何在社安網的部分提早去發現 提早去關注及時查明兒女的行為的跡象能在問題剛開始還沒發生之前我們就發出一定的信號出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18960.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18982.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
並且立即可以採取行動相關的行動來去做後續的處理那這個是第四點我要提出來的最後也就是我們今天的重點檢討現有的刑事責任跟假釋的制度嚇阻兒童的案件兒女的事件發生透過我們推動制度的修正讓孩子們可以撐起無憂無慮的成長快樂的環境這個是我們所要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18989.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19017.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
針對五點的面向我們希望未來有機會透過各部會去做修正但是今天回應民意在刑責的部分的總檢討我覺得是相對的重要因為刑責輕重不一這也造成社會對於這整件額略事件其實會有非常多的覺得我們應該調整我們身為有權力的可以去做調整我們確實應該努力去做一些法令上的一些調整跟修正謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19023.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19031.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
就我們安排這個公聽會當然主要是我覺得被害人的權利的保障其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19032.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19049.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
在目前我國司法制度上面是有一點失衡了其實應該說有嚴重的失衡了我們現在對於被告的保障遠優於被害人那我想說各位有實務經驗的人在場有非常多法官跟檢察官嘛大家過去有實務經驗應該很了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19051.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19073.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
目前確實保障他們有失衡有時候有一些法制是有一些坐在辦公室內的學者他們思考出來但是放在實務是不是適用我們就只能藉由這些公聽會來告訴大家那另外因為我到立法院一年多包括以前工作經驗其實我們接觸到非常多被害人那我在面前跟各位報告說其實你我都是好運因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19075.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19086.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
今天被害人的那種心痛一般我們可能只能體會到1%而已麻煩各位各機關的代表讓我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19087.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19105.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
設身處地的去思考換位思考一下其實家屬家屬的無助感他已經發生這樣的憾事了結果後來他希望司法還他一個公正但是司法沒有還他公正所以他們跟我說他們是司法的孤兒因為沒有司法沒有幫他那他來拜託告訴我很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19106.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19135.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
死者過去的事情跟現在自己家家裡面的事情那其實我每次聽完我心情都很不好回家都好幾天來回復心情這我想說可能各位沒有辦法理解這個但是這個真的是只有被害家屬心中痛苦的1%而已所以我還是蠻希望說這個司法機關的部分我們能夠多想一下看制度面能夠怎麼樣去處理然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19136.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19145.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我們不能讓他們變成孤兒啦我們對於正義都有那種無可救藥的熱情所以還是要出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19146.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19172.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
那個協助這些被害人家屬這是我的想法所以我將來我還是會持續的召開一些類似的公聽會那就一些法治的部分我們會繼續的推動那5月27號在立法院這邊有一個研討會跟記者會就是在討論司法爭議的部分那我們也希望說各位委員立法委員有時間的話能夠一起去參與去聲援 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19176.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19184.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
就是最後還是希望啦 我覺得正義是一件很重要的事情但是正義是需要我們挺身而出來支持它好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19187.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19214.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
好那所有的專家學者還有根據發言的委員都已經發言完畢那接著機關代表發言請就所送書面資料以外的部分做補充說明那除了請法務部司法院衛福部的機關代表進行說明之外我們會在待會還會再詢問其餘的列席機關有沒有需要做補充說明好我們現在開始進行發言發言時間5分鐘我們先麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19215.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19233.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
先請法務部政務次長徐次長進行發言吳釗偉 各位縣進 大家午安 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19238.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19260.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我想我擔任檢察官已經有三十幾年了今天在這裡聽到聶桐的案子跟戈侯的案子其實只是讓我回想到以前我所偵辦的案件歷歷在目所以那種痛苦我不需要你們提醒我我都知道這種案子的發生是讓人家痛心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19262.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19283.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
我們也很無助在檢察官的立場我們只能就已經發生的事實窮盡我們所有的力量收集任何可以我們使用的證據來為死者申冤這是我們檢察官的立場但是有時候會礙於很多客觀的條件我們的能力也會有一些侷限 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19284.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19312.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
不過法務部是國家的法務部門我們如何防止這些被害人有一些被害的事件再次發生或者是惡孽的事件發生我們在法制面我們一定要努力我們要甚至於要跨部會的來合作要讓我們的所有的制度更健全不要再讓憾事發生我想今天聽了這麼多的一些專家學者還有我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19313.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19339.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
被害人家屬的意見我想我們還是有幾點要說明第一個就是故意凌虐殺害兒童以目前的法律他就是可以判死刑剛才有很多學者都已經講到這一點這是刑法第271條就已經規定得很清楚在根據兒少權力保障法112條第一項他本來就可以加重刑刑所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19341.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19369.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
我是想再強調就是說這個部分本來就可以判死刑現在我們現在是出現了另外一個問題叫做凌虐兒童致死不是應該是對跟前面我講的凌虐殺害兒童是不一樣的概念所以剛才學者已經講過了這是一個凌虐的行為加上一個加重結果的發生這是不一樣的概念那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19370.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
19394.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
台北這一件凱凱這個案子我相信北檢的檢察官也是窮盡他所有的能力想要找出這一個被告他寧願殺害凱凱的施政但是所有辦過這類似的案子的人都知道證據非常難取得所以他們才會選擇用寧願致死來起訴這是我的推測 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
19398.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
19403.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
我想這是無奈的但是我們可以繼續努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19405.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19430.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
我在這裡先第一點說明第二個就是有關於大家提到的林業致死要在刑法第286條第三項到底要不要加入死刑這個問題在場的學者也表示了非常完整的意見我想這一個部分本部非常的重視我們會收集我們實務的見解跟外國的立法例我們會通盤檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19431.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19453.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那剛才我也跟抓委報告,我們三個月之內,我們會把相關的法案呢,我們就會報到刑事院去我們來做一個法制面的努力那第三點就是有關於,到底這一個無期徒刑,虐頭無期徒刑,是不是把它列為不得假製 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19455.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19484.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
目前我們送到行政院的部分呢是對於重大暴力犯罪行為呢我們是認為我們要列為就是不得假釋是要列在刑法第77條裡面也就是說如果是殺人或是殺人未遂而被判10年以上有刑徒刑的話會列入不得假釋的範圍但是這個還在討論不過我們這個是屬於通案性的適用並不是針對特定的犯罪罪名 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19485.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19506.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
適用 也就是說對於聶桐這個案子就是屬於特定犯罪那這一個部分的話我們不是就排除了而是對於這一個部分我們也會收集今天以及將來更多的學者的意見我們是併案就送到行政院來一併做來討論是不是把這一個部分也納進去不過我們當然也會擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19509.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19533.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
致死的這個部分有很多的罪名會不會有更多的團體要把他推進來這個我們當然都會考慮在內不過這個部分我們會一併來討論至於我們有關於這個被害人的訴訟參與權我們書面資料已經有提到我們是贊成就是仿照德國刑事訴訟法的規定有讓被害人可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19534.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19561.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
申請調查證據還有獨立抗告上訴的相關的權利我想保護部對於保護被害人或者是防止額內事件再發生在法制面我們一定會盡我們所有的努力來讓我們這個兒童呢會有一個更好的環境我想我們已經在很多方面我們都盡力了我們也對所有的被害人被害人的家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19562.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19582.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
也表示遺憾我們非常非常的能夠體諒各位的受害的心情謝謝好 謝謝次長那下一位我們請衛福部保護司司長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19593.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19622.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
首先代表衛福部向召委以及在座今天在座的各部會的長官還有今天參與這個公聽會的幾位目前還在現場的代表感到十二萬分的謝意其實凱凱事件一發生的時候後續不管是我們的民眾的召集上凱道這些第一時間我們大概都掌握到 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19623.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19638.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
幾位發言人也好召集人也好的一些意見我們都有做了相當周延的一個訴求的一個回應包括他今天有特別提到的這個要成立一個這個部會層級的這個專責單位還有正式的公務人員還有甚至還有參考瑞典的這個所謂的訪視訪員助理訪視員等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19652.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19664.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
以及專責的這個額保醫師這些制度我們看了都會非常非常的感動也就是今天我們的民眾都是站在第一線而且非常的接地氣也反映到目前食物界的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19668.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19691.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
那這些內容我們都一一的都記錄下來那今天這個代表發言人有特別提到說希望能夠有一個快速回應坦白講我們上個禮拜基本上已經把這個專責額保的專責單位這樣的一個規劃有已經跟行政院院長有做了一些要去做一些面報院長也很關心本來有安排時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19693.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19710.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
後來剛好有一個重大事故發生之後那個時間就調了那我相信後續應該很快速的院也會再找衛福部再做一些討論其實目前是已經進到一個相當成熟那另外今天的會議上有提到這個司法訴訟的裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19711.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19739.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
特別是兒少參與的這件事情那在性侵害犯罪防治法的確它有所謂的兒童司法詢問員那過去我們在推這個工作的時候也有外界有希望能夠在民事刑事以及少事法部分兒少的參與那可以用這個司法詢問員這樣的一個制度推廣如果這個部分是被接受那可能也可以修在兒權法因為兒權法下個會期應該也會進到 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19742.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19756.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
這個大院來那如果有必要的話也可以在這個兒圈法裡頭把它加進去那以上是我們今天聽到這些我們立即做的一些回應那我再次說明今天部長還有我們的業務指導的上 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19760.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19784.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
目前都去WHA參加市委的一個活動那今天院裡頭也有這個院長的一個召開會議所以我們另外兩位次長也都在會議上那並不是不重視這一項業務而是由直接負責俄少保的司那由我來代替部裡頭把這一件蒐集之後在第一時間也反映給我們的長官剛才我在聽各位的一個報告的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19789.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19808.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
那把相關的意見就立刻上傳到我們的這個群組裡頭那也反映大家的意見都非常的這個中肯那我們能夠調整在這個社會相關社會福利的相關法規部分我們都會立刻來做以上代表衛福部的回應 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請司法院刑事廳廳長李廳長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19817.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19842.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
有家事聽嗎 那麻煩聽長 謝謝主席 趙偉 還有在座的先進以及所有各單位的長官 大家午安今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19843.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19868.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
心情非常沉痛我們少年法庭的法官確實需要再多一些的愛心跟更多的教育訓練至於法制面部分剛剛我聽完一些先進的說明目前就少事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19869.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19886.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
少年保護事件那麼依照大法官的解釋4至805號做一個修正那麼在這個少事法36條之一就加強了這個被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19887.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19911.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
這個程序的一個主體權那麼也就是說他道場權、陳述權、知悉權、陪伴同權都入法定了明定但這操作上需要像主席召委所說的要多加強實務法官的教育訓練才能操作到讓被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19913.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19926.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
到法庭來行使各方面受到非常溫暖的對待跟陪伴環境上也要做一個友善的作為剛剛聽了楊媽媽的說明我都流下淚來 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19929.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19952.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
我覺得現在我們一定要把這些所有可能改進的地方精進的地方對被害人的傷痛一定要全力以赴的加強至於少年刑事案件在上一次102年依照大法官4-805號的解釋修改的65條第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19957.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19975.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
雖然擴大了少年刑事案件被害人得委任律師為代理人那麼得刑事相關的權利以外但是呢 明定不准用刑事訴訟法的被害人參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19976.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20000.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
那這一部分經過這一次戈景岸重大事件的反省以後我們也收集了所有全國的意見以及今天也有很多意見以及各國的比較法的意見試圖思考在重罪以及被害人的平衡權的一個保障上是不是還有再修法的必要我們會非常的重視來進行評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20004.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
20020.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
那麼這是邵氏法的部分那第二部分就是我想家世庭的法官不能漏接任何一位這個受害的兒童不管他是就是一般的壽內 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
20021.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
20046.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
那麼要安置或者是售內通報進來要發警保令、暫保令、通保令我們這個時候要跟所有保護網絡合作不能漏接任何一個兒童繼續讓他走向痛苦的深淵最後變成今天我們在討論的如何加重刑罰但這個時候他已經死亡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
20046.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
20057.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
我相信我們所有的家事法官都不願意見到所以我們現在開了很多這類的課程剛剛說的IEP等等在正式開啟動這樣讓家事法官從這個ASA福權法這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
20064.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
20079.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
受虐或者疏於教養或疏於保護我們的保護單位送進來的這種申請安置我們就要啟動那剛才大家都有提到一個說這麼小的兒童他沒有辦法陳述意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
20080.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20104.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
他更不可能把他的受害經過來法庭或在警政或社政單位呈現他受害的證據所以我們家事的部分已經有一個立法的設計叫程序監理人在國外叫做兒童的律師叫代理人那其實這樣的專家他是具備三個專業法律專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20106.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20127.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
兒童心理專頁 社工的支援社會整個專頁如果剛剛有很多的共識能倡導這樣我們非常樂於見到所以我們一直在把新進的家事法官做教育訓練你看到有兒童的案子在裡面不管離婚的 不管是家暴的 不管是安置的或各類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20128.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20151.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
一定要啟動這個專家來協助那剛剛有講到這個司法協議員是在最早啟動在性侵害的部分那這個我們樂於把這些法令徹底執行跟修法最後我要補充報告謝謝剛剛那個保護師的張師長有跟我交換意見那我覺得這個對我們來講是一個非常重要的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20152.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
20168.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
性侵害犯罪防治法他剛剛告訴我也就是說剛剛楊媽媽有提到我們在保護所謂的被害兒童我們在肇事法因為基於少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
20170.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
20187.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
自我的健全成長不要讓他留下這個所謂的司法的這種處罰的一個印記以至於造成他在健全成長上有阻礙但是我們被害人要平衡所以在我們的信心範圍犯罪防治法就明定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
20188.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
20202.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
如果在性侵害的部分被害人死亡了這當然是不能報導不能揭露但是有一個例外在48條第三項他說性侵害這麼重大的案子被害人死亡了這不能報導報導的話主管機關要處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20205.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20225.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
可是主管機關可以裁量在四個條件下第一為了維護治安安定社會人心澄清誤解視聽尤其防止危險擴大還有其他社會重大公益可以認為如果有報導有揭露不必處罰我想我們少年實踐處理法會 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20227.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20231.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
參佐這個來看適當的平衡跟修法 以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
20237.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
20266.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
OK 那我就報告一下113年的10月我們就正式經過司法院的院會早就通過 我們就函送行政院那行政院也因此請我們跟各界還有一些專家到行政院由政委召開這樣的一個會議然後總共召開了三次 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
20266.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
20286.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
那麼從10月11、12都有召開那到了1月的時候我們文字修正以及整合都完畢那當然一定是有不同意見尤其行政院邀請了包括衛福部包括警政署包括法務部等都有不同的修法意見包括剛剛所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
20288.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20314.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
在有條件下的不塗銷少年前案這個叫做保持善良品性的少年我們要讓他復歸社會對不對不保持善良品性的我們不應該這樣一律的把他銷案前案但這個各界還是有很多意見條件有很多意見那我們希望說他兩岸併成進來但是從今年的1月我們一直協商到現在5月 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20315.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20328.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
還沒有經過行政院的院會我沒有在指責的意思喔 各位請不要誤會的報導喔因為行政院一定有他的立場那像 等一下我跟李廳長立即要趕回我們3點要召開院會就是行政院喊請我們會選的我們就是要兩岸併成 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20335.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20352.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
以上所以我回去我希望我一個月內能解決這一個案可以送入院會然後馬上會選進入立法院請各位大委員指導我們來將這個邵氏法修得更完整保護得更周到以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20354.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20378.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
謝謝 那算是那個楊媽媽跟我們討論 幫助討論其實我們後來有把一些資料回饋給這個邵家的廳長那也很謝謝廳長後來在法官的辦案手冊上面有修正有關那個未成年證人的保護方面這塊真的是非常謝謝廳長那我個人我是覺得我們花太多 政治人物跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20378.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20394.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
大法官還有國人花太多時間在說要實質廢死或是反對一個我們提的法官以自決公投的這個事情我們花太多力氣在這裡了我們其實應該回饋把一些力氣花在怎麼保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20396.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20418.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
被害人家屬多關懷他們或是讓下一次的悲劇不要再發生我想我們應該把力氣花在這裡啦因為在座很多司法官嘛那我想說我過往我自己開庭的經驗因為開庭時間很短那我們也重視的是構成要件所以我永遠都只聽到被害人是怎麼死的我從來沒有思考過被害人怎麼活 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20419.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
20438.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
所以當我這段時間我跟家屬接觸我們近距離接觸之後他們花最多時間是告訴我這個人曾經是怎麼活就我以前只在乎他怎麼死我從來忘記了他怎麼活所以當我更知道這個被害者在被殺死之前他怎麼活的時候以及他的家屬在 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
20440.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
20462.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
刑案發生之後他們家族的人生是變成怎麼活的時候我真的覺得你要我去原諒一個這種兇手其實我變得更沒有辦法這是我在跟各位司法官報告的點就是在這邊我們花太多時間只在乎他怎麼死卻忘了去思考這些人以前怎麼活以及他的家族在事後是怎麼活 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
20463.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
20480.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
我想說這個公平正義還是我一直追求的那接下來我們可能還會有很多類似公聽會有一些活動還是要為被害人家族發聲好謝謝那請問一下其他的列席機關代表有沒有需要補充說明的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
20483.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
20513.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
好那沒有的話那今天的公聽會發言就到此告一個段落那感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供諸多寶貴的意見那今天各位的發言內容還有書面意見還有委員審發會所提的書面資料我們都會列入記錄刊登公報而且會做成公報的公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員還有本日出席的列席人員參考那本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
20513.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
20513.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
谢谢大家 |