| IVOD_ID |
16699 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16699 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-22T08:30:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-22T13:08:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:37:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddcd64100527991d8c16e636471cd401bea12e9ca99aa835c0f0a89a0913b09ca35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
二、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
三、繼續審查委員葛如鈞等21人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
四、繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
五、繼續審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
六、繼續審查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
七、繼續審查委員陳素月等24人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
八、繼續審查委員林俊憲等16人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
九、繼續審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
十、繼續審查委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
十一、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
十二、繼續審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
十三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
十四、繼續審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。
十五、審查委員許智傑等24人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
十六、審查委員李坤城等22人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」案。
十七、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
十八、審查委員李昆澤等30人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
十九、審查委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「資通安全管理法第六條、第七條及第十條之一條文修正草案」案。
【本日會議進行逐條審查；第十六案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第十九案如經院會復議，則不予審查】
【5月21日及22日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:18 - 13:08:00 |
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谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2160.692 |
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2174.296 |
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現在繼續開會現在介紹在場委員沒有列席人員列席人員我簡單介紹那個部長我們的黃燕南部長然後葉林次長數位策略師蔡壽全市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2191.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2217.637 |
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法治處吳怡倫副處長資通安全署蔡芙蓉署長國土安全辦公室劉正安參議法務部廖江縣參事交叉局資通安全署張遊仁署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2222.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2228.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
國防部通信電子資訊參謀次長是資安暨網站整備處張克勤副處長國際安全局第五處孫組長陸委會資訊是陳寅哲主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2249.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2273.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
行政院人事行政總署培訓考驗處戴家揚專門委員還有主編人力處谷元林專門委員程序部退輔師邱德敏專門委員個人資料保護委員會籌備處隱私科技組蘇柏京科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2285.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2314.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
本日會議進行審查直通安全管理法修正草案共二十案日前114年4月24日本會與第八次會議已完成詢答程序本日會議與進行主條協商前先就加進來審查的第十五案至第二十案作說明提案要旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2316.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2341.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
機關報告及條文宣讀等程序本次會議就不受理臨時提案先進行說明提案要旨請許智傑委員、李昆哲委員、李昆城委員、陳冠廷委員、黃秀芳委員、郭益晴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2343.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2345.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
機關報告請蘇衛發展部黃燕南部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2368.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2384.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
主席各位女士先生今天應要列席委員會議針對自動安全管理法修正草案以下簡稱修正草案進行報告說明如下近年來全球自動安全威脅日益升高 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2385.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2407.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
政府與關鍵基礎設施頻頻成為駭客攻擊的目標各國如美國、歐盟、日本等皆陸續強化資安立法與執法機制以維護國家安全跟經濟穩定現行自通安全管理法自107年6月6日制定公佈到108年正式實施以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2408.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2432.803 |
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至今並未進行修法累積6年多執行經驗發現部分條文無法有效回應新興治安風險與管理的需求近年來國內陸續發生多起治安事件如醫療院所遭入侵機敏資料外洩關鍵基礎設施遭受攻擊顯示現行制度仍有 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2434.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2458.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
不足 漏洞急需追捕本修正草案旨在強化國家整體自動安全法律規範促進政府跨機關合作與區域聯防並提升公司部門資安防護能力本修正草案於113年7月4日提報行政院院會通過並函請立法院審議立法院自113年7月12日一讀交互委員會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2461.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2473.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
並經再檢視多數與委員沈伯陽等17人 葛如君等21人賴銳龍等17人 黃潔等17人 林怡瑾等18人陳樹悅等24人 林俊憲等16人羅美玲等21人 胡思堯等17人臺灣民眾黨團 邱若驊等17人 蔡其昌等18人 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2484.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2497.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
李柏毅等18人許智傑等24人李坤澄等22人陳冠廷等16人李坤哲等30人黃秀芳等21人及顧玉清等19人共19項提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2499.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2517.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
修正提案均與行政院版本立法方向大致相同經本部拜會各委員逐條溝通結果你左採委員意見修正以求周妥此次自動安全管理法修法其能帶來多方面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2519.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2543.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
尤其是強化國家整體資安防護提升公司部門資安韌性因應新興威脅等方面更具前瞻性及時效性懇請委員多予支持其機關報告請各位參考書面並列入紀錄刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2546.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2567.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
現在進行宣讀條文如有修正動議或附帶決議也請一併宣讀資通安全管理法修正草案第15字第20案條文對照表委員許志傑等提案以及委員李坤誠等提案第一章總則 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2570.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2584.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
允許字節等提案第一條為修正同線型條文委員李昆哲等提案第一條刪除線型的維護社會公共利益等文字其與同線型條文依行政院提案第二條對照 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2587.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2615.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
以下各委員委員許智傑等提案第二條委員陳冠廷等提案第二條委員李坤哲等提案第二條委員黃秀芳等提案第二條委員李坤誠等提案第二條捐同行政院提案依行政院提案第三條對照委員許智傑等提案第三條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2618.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2641.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
至第五款均同行政院提案第六款的首句關鍵的前面沒有特定兩個文字其餘同行政院提案第七款的前段修正為指行政院公告之關鍵領域中該領域服務所依賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2643.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2666.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
之系統或文物之實體或虛擬資產等文字其餘同縣刑條文第八款同縣刑條文第九款在中段第一項的後面沒有第四項等文字其餘同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2671.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2698.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
委員陳冠廷等提案第三條至第六款未修正同進行條文第七款前段修正為指能源水資源通訊傳播交通金融緊急救援與醫院政府機關科學園區與工業區等行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2698.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2722.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
並其檢視並公告之領域中該領域服務所依賴其與同行政院提案第八款的前段予以修正修正為自維運或提供關鍵基礎設施之全部或一部所依賴自資通系統或調度控制系統等文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2723.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2742.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
其餘同行政院提案第九款同行政院提案委員黃秀芳等提案第三條同委員李昆哲等提案委員李昆誠等提案第三條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2744.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2766.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
依行政院提案第四條對照委員許智傑等提案第四條以及委員李坤澄等提案第四條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第五條對照委員許智傑等提案第五條以及委員李坤澄等提案第五條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2768.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2797.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
以及委員黃秀芳等提案第五條之一委員李坤哲等提案第五條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第六條對照委員許志傑等提案第六條以及委員李坤誠等提案第六條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第七條對照委員許志傑等提案第七條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2803.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2817.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
除第一項的前段有一個文字 知重要性的知以及在第三項的後段修正為專職人員之資格與配字 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2818.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2845.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
之外其餘同行政院提案文官疫情等提案第七條第一項字第三項同行政院提案然後中令第四項文之內容為主管機關的是公務機關或特定非公務機關之規模資安資源業務屬性及其他情形設置輔導機制以協助其逐步符合相關等級要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2846.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2873.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
委員陳冠廷等提案第七條同行政院提案委員黃秀芳等提案第七條同委員李坤哲等提案委員李坤誠等提案第七條同行政院提案一行政院提案一行政院提案第八條對照委員許志傑等提案第八條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第七條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2876.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2896.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
除第二項以及第五項外期與同行政院提案在第二項的部分後段修正為改善報告應送交上級機關、上級政府監督機關或中央目的事業主管機關審查後並送交資安書 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2900.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2922.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
還有第四項第四項的後段內容與方法的後面沒有改善報告之提出等文字然後第五項修正為第一項集合郵支安署擬定年度計劃後辦理年度計劃及年度成果報告應送交國家支通安全匯報被查 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2925.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2951.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
委員黃秀芳等提案第七條之一同委員李寬哲等提案委員李昆城等提案第八條同行政院提案以行政院提案第九條對照委員徐志傑等提案第九條以及委員李昆城等提案第九條均同行政院提案以行政院提案第十條對照委員徐志傑等提案第十條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2954.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2982.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員陳冠廷等提案第9條B1項以及第2項同行政院提案然後增訂第三項文字內容為前項書面契約之格式內容中央主管機關應訂定定型化契約範本及其應記載及不得記載不得記載事項委員李坤誠等提案第10條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2985.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3013.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
一行政院提案的第二章對照委員許智傑等提案第二章以及委員李空城等提案第二章均同行政院提案一行政院提案第十一條對照委員許智傑等提案第十一條同行政院提案委員郭玉琴等提案第十條之一第一項同行政院提案的第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3015.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3036.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後增訂第二項文件內容為主管機關應建立危害國家之通安全產品專案核可案件之資訊查詢與管理平台會整個機關專案使用之產品類別核可條件及使用機關等資訊供主管機關掌握與追蹤管理第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3038.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3048.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
第三項以及第四項同行在院提案的第二項以及第三項文成貫庭等提案第九條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3049.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3072.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
第一項的但書修正為但依業務需求且無其他替代方案者得經該機關自動安全長和可函報主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用並列冊管理第三項修正為危害國家自動安全產品資產品清單由主管機關定期公告之 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3074.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3080.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
除以上修正外 其餘同行進任提案為李空城等提案第十一條同行進任提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3082.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3110.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因行政院提案第十二條對照委員許志傑等提案第十二條以及委員李昆城等提案第十二條均同行政院提案因行政院提案第十三條對照委員許志傑等提案第十三條以及委員李昆城等提案第十三條均同行政院提案因行政院提案第十四條對照委員許志傑等提案第十四條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3111.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3127.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
委員李坤誠等提案第十四條除第三款的墓具尊併併附資資安署等文字外其餘同行政院提案依行政院提案第十五條對照 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3129.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3157.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
委員徐志傑等提案第15條以及委員李昆城等提案第15條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第16條對照委員徐志傑等提案第16條同行政院提案委員李昆城等提案第16條也是同行政院提案依行政院提案第17條對照委員徐志傑等提案第17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3159.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3182.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
以及委員李坤哲等提案第17條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第18條對照委員徐志傑等提案第18條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第15條第一項的後段修正為設置專職支通安全人員辦理支通安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3184.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3209.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
業務及應變處理、自動安全業務、績效平和優良者應予獎勵在第二項的後段資安署的後段這邊增訂禁語兩個文字第三項修正為前二項人員調度資源、績效平和獎勵及職能訓練相關事項之辦法由主管機關定制 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3211.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3236.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
主委上修正話七日同行政院提案委員黃秀芳等提案第十五條同委員李坤哲等提案委員李坤誠等提案第十八條同行政院提案因行政院提案第十九條對照委員徐志傑等提案第十九條同行政院提案委員陳冠廷等提案第十一條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3237.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3262.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
文字内容为公务机关自自通安全专职人员需通过试任性安全查核前向试任性安全查核程序内容及其他相关事项由资安署定之未通过查核者不得办理涉及国家机密、军事机密及国防机密自自通安全业务用人机关基于个人资料保护规定因保密处理不得遗嘱他用违反者是情节予以益处 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3263.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3278.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
委員李坤誠等提案第十九條同行政院提案依行政院提案第三章對照委員許智傑等提案第三章以及委員李坤誠等提案第三章張敏君同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3280.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3308.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
依行政院提案第20條對照委員徐志傑等提案第20條同行進院提案委員李坤哲等提案第16條中央目的事業主管機關因遵循相關公務機關民間團體專家學者意見後擬定關鍵基礎設置提供者之指定清單報警行政院核定以書面通知之其指定基準廢止條件及程序由中央目的事業主管機關公告之委員李坤哲等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3309.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3327.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第十六條之一 關鍵基礎設施提供者應致知通安全長尤其代表人、管理人其他有代表權人或其指派之適當人員擔負負責推動及監督機關內知通安全相關事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3331.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3346.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
在第二項的部分聚首沒有特定兩個文字其餘同行政院提案的第二項第三項也是聚首沒有特定兩個文字其餘同行政院提案的第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3347.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3363.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第四項在前段關鍵的前面也是沒有特定兩個文字在中段的部分文字內容系統之規模後面是集的文字集性子其餘文字也同情這一院提案的第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3364.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3391.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第五項也是舉手沒有特定兩個文字在中段在中段的部分計畫實施的後面沒有清醒兩個文字其餘同行政院提案的第五項第六項同行政院提案的第六項委員陳冠廷等提案第十六條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3392.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3412.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
委員黃秀芳等提案第16條以及委員黃秀芳等提案的第16條之一均同委員李昆哲等提案的第16條以及第16條之一委員李昆誠等提案第20條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3414.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3434.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
依行政案提案第二十一條對照委員徐志傑等提案第二十一條同行政院提案委員李坤哲等提案第十七條第一項的文職內容為關鍵基礎事實提供者以外置特定非公務機關應置支通安全長由其代表人管理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3436.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3465.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
其他有代表權能或其指派之適當人員擔任負責推動及監督機關內自動安全相關事務第二項的部分也是在聚首沒有特定兩個文字其為同行正願提案的第一項第三項第三項至第五項同行正願提案的第二項至第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3469.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3493.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
委員陳冠廷等提案第十七條除第一項的中斷修正為設置知通安全人員晚期與同行政院提案委員彭修芳等提案第十七條同委員李坤哲等提案委員李坤誠等提案第二十一條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3494.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3503.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
依行院提案第22條對照 委許斥諧等提案第22條同行建院提案委員禮崑哲等提案第17條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3507.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3535.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
第十六條之一及前條之自動安全維護計劃必要事項實施情形之提出集合之頻率決定基準程序與方法結果之交互改善報告自提出及其他應遵形式想製辦法由中央目的事業主管機關擬定抱有管理機關合併委員黃秀芳等提案第十七條之一通過委員李昆哲等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3537.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3559.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
委員李坤誠等提案第22條同行政院提案依行政院提案第23條對照委員許志傑等提案第23條以及委員李坤哲等提案第23條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第24條對照委員許志傑等提案第24條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3560.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3576.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
委員陳冠廷等提案第十八條在第二項的默劇徵定中央目的事業主管機關應設置通報窗口線上通報平台或通報專線第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3580.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3605.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在第四項的手續通報的後面是及的文字其餘同行政院提案委員李坤誠等提案第24條同行政院提案依行政院提案第25條對照委員許志傑等提案第25條以及委員李坤誠等提案第25條均同行政院提案依行政院提案第26條對照 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3607.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3629.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
委員徐志杰等提案第26條以及委員李昆成等提案第26條均同行政院提案以行政院提案第27條對照委員徐志杰等提案第27條以及委員李昆成等提案第27條均同行政院提案委員徐志杰等提案以及委員李昆成等提案第4張張明法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3632.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3644.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
行政院提案第28條對照委員徐志傑等提案第28條同行政院提案委員陳冠廷等提案第19條除第一項的守據 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3645.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3665.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本法規定的後面沒有辦理兩個文字外其餘同行政院提案委員李坤誠等提案第28條同行政院提案依行政院提案第29條對照委員徐志傑等提案第29條以及委員李坤誠等提案第29條均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3667.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3695.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
依行政院提案第30條對照 委員徐志傑等提案第30條同行政院提案 委員李昆哲等提案第20條在第一款在第一款的條文部分修正為 未依第16條之一第一項第二項或第 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3698.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3712.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
17條第一項第二項規定中斷或違反第17條之一鎖定辦法第二款的部分為依第16條之一第三項或第17條第三項規定中斷違反第17條之一鎖定辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3717.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3745.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
在第三款的部分衛一第七條之一第二項第十六條之一第五項或第十七條第四項規定中段修正委違反第十七條之一所定辦法處以向修正外其餘文字同行政院提案委員房秀芳等提案第二十條同委員李昆哲等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3750.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3768.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
委員李坤誠等提案第30條同行政院提案一行政院提案第31條對照委員徐志傑等提案第31條以及委員李坤誠等提案第31條均同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3769.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3794.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
委員許智傑等提案以及委員李昆哲等提案第五張張明負責對照一行政院提案第32條對照委員許智傑等提案第32條同行政院提案委員顧玉琴等提案第6條在第二項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3795.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3815.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
據守修正為數位發展部之通安全在第四項的中段後修正為主管機關應協調與業務關聯性最高之中央目的事業主管機關辦理本法所定中央目的事業主管機關機關應辦理之事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3817.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3826.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
主委商修正外其餘同行政院提案委員李昆城等提案第32條同行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3831.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3853.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
以下委員許智傑等提案第33條以及委員李昆城等提案第33條委員許智傑等提案第34條委員李昆城等提案第34條委員許智傑等提案第35條以及委員李昆城等提案第35條均同行政院提案宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3862.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3881.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
現在宣讀完畢進行修正草案的協商除了各版本及修正動議 數位發展部也有送條文修正的建議也請大家一併參考現在休息五分鐘 請通知委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3901.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3902.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
这边有点热 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3909.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3910.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這樣大家可以休息久一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3940.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3941.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3964.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3966.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
一開始他們都進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3979.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3987.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
現場的協商也算是處理的範圍之一對 處理的範圍之一我幫他協商 直接表決願會二不三的都算了協商也算 也算是願會的範圍對 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4009.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4010.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
謝謝大家,下次見 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4035.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4063.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
總統總統總統總統總統總統總統總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4063.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4067.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4089.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4094.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們希望你加下去不要看如果是同意的話就同步 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4118.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4121.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
奶茶 咖啡 咖啡喔因為他們跟我講奶茶沒關係 沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4485.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4508.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
好現在繼續開會那我們就現在開始處理條文部分就一張條順序第一張大家有沒有什麼意見總則 名稱沒有這個都一樣這個就通過了依照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4510.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4513.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
就章敏而已啦,章敏都一樣啦好,再來第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4522.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4547.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
第一條大致上也大概都差不多好那個羅美玲委員好謝謝主席第一條立法目的大概就是我的部分跟院版有一點點的不太一樣因為我把那個促進產業發展及提升全民資安意識有拉進來因為我覺得這也是立法目的那資安署有來做溝通說其實這是放在第四條你居然第四條裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4548.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4566.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
第一款就已經有提到了這也是對法目的為什麼沒有在這邊把他拉進來好這是好在這個部分的話看看這個治安署有沒有這樣怎麼樣的這個說法好以上好治安署好各州軍委員剛才舉手呀好沒意見好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4573.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4593.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
好謝謝羅文的非常寶貴的意見因為第一條是立法的目的立法目的一般來講應該是比較大的一個方向因為在第十條裡面其實已經有這個相關的促進產業發展因為跟這個提升產品資產運勢這個都是比較執行面我們要去推動的事情那在第十條裡面已經有說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4594.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4621.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們要去推動這個相關的這些制通安全的事項所以我們還是建議說在這個地方還是保留原來的條文就是保障國家安全之外是維持社會公共利益我想這樣子維持驗版的條文我想整個立法的目的是可以比較大的一個宏觀的一個角度 以上謝謝OK好那第一條大家有沒有什麼意見沒有意見我們就照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4623.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4626.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
現在第二條大家有沒有什麼意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4631.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4653.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
謝謝趙偉也謝謝我們今天有這個資安法的排審那本條呢關於本法的主管機關本席的版本呢當時是參考全民健保法的第四條主管機關是衛福部這樣的一個寫法而不吝寫全民健保相關業務由健保署辦理那本席的版本主要是考量資通安全的業務涉及的範圍其實很寬廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4655.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4678.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
橫跨速發部的本部以及下轄的兩個署以資通安全產業來說主要是由速發部底下的數位產業署主管但是整部的這個資通安全管理法與資通安全的產業可以說是密不可分另外序名特別做在法條裡面去序名資安署辦理國家資通安全業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4680.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4695.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
是有点担心日后恐怕会在分工上面出现问题那另外一方面本次自动安全管理法的修法以后其实某种程度是赋予主管机关更大的权利也扩大办理业务的范围那在本条以及后续相关的条文里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4696.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4717.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
直接續名由一個編制117人的三級機關來辦理全國性的資安業務恐怕會有層級不夠高量能不足的問題那因此希望第二條能夠採取本席的版本由速發部來擔任主管機關那後續的條文也不要直接寫由資安署辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4717.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4746.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所有的业务呢再由抒发部进行内部的分工才比较合适否则的话治安署在这一步法通过以后很可能会117个人会握有一个全国性检查的或者是相关的这个权利行政的权利尤其又把整部法变成是治安署那以后相关的事务就变成是治安署这里来做抒发部会不会有不知情无法调度等等的这个困难或问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4747.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4774.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
變成治安署看起來很像治安部我想如果真的有這個需求也可以來討論治安署是不是要變治安部如果沒有這樣子的一個討論我們還是希望說這一條是不是能夠照本席的版本去做這個速發部這樣的一個做法就好不必另外列名序名是治安署好謝謝謝謝好有沒有其他有意見我們先聽那個那個速發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4777.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4790.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
謝謝郭委員的意見我想整個資通安全政策的推動它其實是有層級的包括行政院負責整個政策的相關的制定我們速發部負責相關的政策規劃資通安全署負責整個政策的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4795.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4820.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那它整個是一個有階層性的這樣的一個架構在推動整個資安的相關的工作那這邊提到當然是整個主管機關是社會發展部這次絕對沒有問題那這時候要條例這個資通安全署來負責整個相關資通安全的業務主要是有一些相關執行層面的業務我們希望說可以更快速由這個資安署這邊就來相關的這個處理包括像通報像一些應變的處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4821.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4845.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那我們接著如果說這個東西再報到這個塑化部再回到這個署裡面來執行那個程序效率可能比較會有影響所以我們這邊就直接寫由這個治安署來執行那另外我們有參考其他部會的法例定法例包括這個鐵路法裡面也有定相關的例如說鐵道局負責相關鐵路的這個監理的工作那專利法裡面也有定到例如說由經濟部來指定相關機關來執行相關的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4847.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4861.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
所以相關部會的這個定法其實也會考量到整個行政效率等等相關的考量那由這個相關的像這個署或是局來執行相關的這個工作所以我想跟國務委員這邊做一個說明以上謝謝那個國務委員OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4867.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4884.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
謝謝我想這個還是沒有回應到我主要的顧慮啦我其實也是希望說速發部有比較通透的通暢的能力來做資安相關的管理啦那我們的這個版本其實也有參考全民健保法第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4885.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4908.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
也就是只寫衛福部不定寫這個健保署那另外呢這個如果速發部覺得還是要界定清楚要有一個文字的話我是提議說那是不是資安署的這個部分就是後面的這一段國家自動安全業務由數位發展部自動安全署辦理的這個這一段落呢移到說明欄位就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4909.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4931.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那我想這樣子既然在法條裡面也清楚的看得到但是我想也不會說整部法在這個審查檢核等等所有的執行都只是由這個治安署來做那我想這個治安署可能會有這個這個負擔過度的責任跟權力的這樣的一個疑慮謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4934.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4956.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我們請次長跟各位報告第一件事第一項我們是沒有動本法主管機關是數位發展部所以數位發展部負責全國的資安業務這個是責無旁貸不會發生說資安署這個是我們兩個版本都一樣的我們後面之所以要訂的其實就是跟各位剛剛提到一樣我們中間有很多條文是執行事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4958.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4975.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
各位這個顧慮是很正確就是資安署的確他是在層級上是三級機關可是他執行的時候他要法律明確的規定那如果定在說明欄其實反而會造成分工不清楚那比如來講說我們有一些這個這個這個集合的報告是要交給資安署的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4975.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4996.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那如果沒有訂在那邊其實對其他各機關也會造成很大的困擾就是到底要交給數位發展部呢還是要在資安署所以我們還是會建議說我們第二項還是訂這個資安署然後後面的條文來明確定說資安署的權責這樣子對各機關也方便對我們執行也方便但是不會影響第一項就第一項數位發展部要負責全國的資安業務統籌來辦理這個是責無旁貸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5002.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5021.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
好 其他委員有沒有什麼意見主席 主席那個趙委員因為我是建議這樣啦我們那個數位部這裡啊黃部長可能跟有關單位如果委員有不同意見的時候我希望簡略說明其實目標都一致啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5022.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5047.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
目標都一致只是到底兩個數要放在說明或者放在這裡我是建議這個是非常小的事所以為了順利把這個華該過的過 該保留的保留所以不希望說在這裡打轉那是不是我們葛委員他已經提出他的看法那看大家做得到做不到那如果做不到我是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5048.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5056.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
有歧見的話就盡量保留再來做協商說明這樣會比較好一點我們才有辦法順利啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5059.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5083.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席好謝謝林國昌委員我想這個因為我們才在第二條啦我大概理解速發部的想法我有一個提議因為後面其實有幾條都有提到列明治安署這件事我們是不是這個第二條的這個議題我們先稍微排後面一點我們待會碰到的時候我們再回來討論這樣好不好這樣也算不在就是在保留跟通過中間這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5085.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5113.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我們先往後一點討論好不好我想跟趙偉是不是有機會可以這樣我們就先往第三條處理這樣子但是暫時保留那後面我們有幾個條文還會遇到啦那也許我們待會還可以再回來第二條好不好他這個後面有很多就直接寫資安署那我們遇到的時候我們再回來講所以就是暫時保留然後後面遇到的條文我們再回來講這樣好不好那那個說不好謝謝OK |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5117.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5140.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好 那現在第三條在第幾頁第三條在16頁那個狗油菌委員好 謝謝昭偉那我們也謝謝速發部以及相關的單位在這一條上面可以說是用心努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5141.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5156.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
我想本條有關本法的用詞定義本席的版本在第一項第八款與第九款與院版有所不同針對第八款本席認為行政院版本目前採用的特定關鍵基礎設施 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5158.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5181.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
其實我們有聽到一些說法說這樣子的一個定義呢是由行政院的國土安全辦公室堅持的那當然我們理解啦就是資安及國安但是因為這個範圍跟範疇會影響到非常多的機關跟設施所以從單從字面上來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5182.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5199.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我們其實如果只講特定關鍵基礎設施的話沒有辦法從字面上立刻理解是指關鍵基礎設施當中的資通系統因為這一副法叫做資通安全管理法而不叫做關鍵基礎設施管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5200.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5217.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
所以呢我想考慮到未來在其他法條當中可能會涉及關鍵基礎設施的其他系統比如說還有電力系統還有水利系統這些都是關鍵基礎設施當中的特定關鍵基礎設施未來要如何與現在所指的關鍵基礎設施中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5217.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5242.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
知通系統做區別這個其實可能就會未來產生一些疑義比如說我們現在要管理的是台大哲學系那我們就講清楚是哲學系而不是管理台大否則未來可能還有其他要管動物系的還要管戲劇系的這個其實大家在用語上面可能會有彼此衝突的問題所以本席認為在本法的第三條第一項第八款的用詞定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5244.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5270.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因为我们这一部法就叫做资通安全管理法所以应该要续名关键资通基础设施的提供者那更加符合本款以及本法的意旨那另外的第九款呢特定财团法人是修正现行条文当中政府捐助之财团法人本席对于正院版呢新增了财团法人法第二条第三项 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5271.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5298.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
中华民国34年8月15日以后我国政府接收日本政府或人民所遗留之财产并以该等财产捐助或成立之财团法人推定为政府捐助之财团法人以及第63条第4项推定为政府直接或间接控制该财团法人之人事财务或业务的民间捐助财团法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5301.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5327.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
存有高度疑慮首先我说明一下这个我们做了非常多的努力跟研究首先我必须说明要扩大自动安全管理法的适用范围必须先了解修法后到底会有哪些财团法人会被扩大适用于本法因为本法有检查有调查有需要配合去做说明等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5328.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5354.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那截至目前為止本席四次要求資安署提供到底接收日本政府或人民所遺留財產捐助成立之財團法人的清單到底有哪些但是直到今天我們已經逐條了資安署到目前為止還是沒有辦法提供聽說本項有一個說法是只屬於總統府的國安會直接下令要求新增到底有沒有這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5358.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5360.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個國土安全辦公室好像也有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5364.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5391.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
這個訴發部好像至今也搞不太清楚狀況如果主管機關訴發部本身都沒有辦法掌握本法擴大的適用範圍提出這樣的修法等於是要我們立法委員給予一張空白授權等同於想要向立法院去要一個特權讓行政權無限擴張讓政府的手可以伸進每一個想要監管的財團法人這一點我們是真的存在高度的疑慮其次依據訴發部的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5393.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5408.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
也跟各位说不好意思这条我说明会稍微长一点因为他非常细节魔鬼藏在细节里那依据速发布说明增加财短法人法第二条第三项主要是这是速发布给我们的说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5409.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5434.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
他們說呢速發部說主要是想要納入財團法人台灣電信協會和財團法人台灣郵政協會這個就是所謂日據接受日本政府或人民所留財產等等我們剛剛有講財團法人法第二條第三項但是呢速發部所提供給我們的資料是我手上這一份自己打臉自己啦在現行條文之下台灣電信協會和台灣郵政協會已經受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5439.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5467.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
治安法的監管了也就已經在裡面了根本沒有必要去修法擴大所以我們看到的這個所謂要納入第二條第三項完全是沒有必要新增進來的那如果不是只有這兩個那到底是還有其他哪些所謂的日本政府或人民所遺留財產或以該等財產捐助或成立之財產法人有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5467.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5494.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
目前為止除了這兩個郵政電信協會郵政協會完全沒有提出那這就是空白授權嘛你以後又再發現說誰跟日據時代這個財產有關你就要被迫一體適用本法的資安規定有可能被授檢查被授調查這難道是我們的書發部想要的嗎我相信也不是所以我想這部分我們站在我們的立場我們是有高的疑慮的同時還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5496.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5510.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
資通安全管理的修法我們剛剛也提到也想要納入第63條的第一項這一點也邀請各位委員不管是哪一個黨派的委員我們都希望注意這一點我念清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5511.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5537.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
第63條這個書發部院版要納入的是財團法人法第63條第一項這個第一項是什麼呢是民間捐助之財團法人符合下列情形有加強監督之必要經主管機關指定者以及第63條第4項推定為政府直接或間接控制該財團法人之人事財務或業務的民間捐助財團法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5538.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5559.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
本席辦公室也對此數次向資安署進行了解因為外界可能會有疑慮啊你這個是不是帝王條款數位中介法的精神要藉著資通安全法來借勢還魂呢那我們去問資安署資安署說有方案向各機關進行調查但只有金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5561.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5570.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
有回覆說有六個需要加強監督的單位我手上也有這我就不一一念了包含金融聯合徵信中心等 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5571.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5599.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
換句話說其餘有13部8會呢都認為沒有必要擴大資通安全管理法的適用對象那如果只有這6個那你就多增加這6個就好你為什麼要突然寫一個這麼大的範圍第63條第1項跟第63條第4項呢那無意是這個把範圍擴大如果你是只打這6個那你就是大炮打小鳥因為你把那麼大的一個項目把它放進來那只打這6個沒有意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5599.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5618.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那我们或外界就会合理的怀疑是不是想要把合法的去把手伸到这些未来可能被列入的财团法人里面要用治安事件的名义对这些未来的被列入的我们刚讲了只要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5620.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5648.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
加強監督的必要經主管機關指定者的財產法人都可以喔那變成呢是用資安事業的名義對這些財產法人甚至他們往來的所有私人企業以及民眾進行行政調查那我手上有一份是可能是在這個範圍裡面的是在這個範圍裡面的這裡面呢有一大堆的基金會有一大堆的財產法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5648.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5659.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
甚至像交通部底下還有中華航空事業發展基金會是華航的那你是不是有可能未來我這一份裡面這麼厚 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5661.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5681.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
這些只要你隨時把他指定進來你們通通可以去進行調查只要說有資安事件這難道是你們想要的嗎那這可能就會假資安之名行侵害企業營業秘密侵害民眾隱私知識啊因此不好意思我這段發言比較長是因為魔鬼常在細節裡只多了幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5682.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5690.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好像就是我們多納一點行政團這個財團法人也沒有很多啊就兩個啊財政啊對不起郵政啊電信啊也就是這個金管會報來的六個啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5696.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5718.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我再講一次財政這個電信郵政本來就已經被你們納管了金管會的這六個那你就六個直接把他納進去你不要包山包海去包了一個財政法人法裡面有可能被擴大成這麼厚的名單的東西我是建議真的不要好不應該去任意擴大所以本席呢像速發部數次所知溝通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5719.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5738.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
認為本法第3條第1項第9款應該維持現行條文不應該任意擴大本法的適用範圍本席對此也有提出修正動議也希望所有的委員一起來支持我想不同黨派的應該也都不會希望發生這樣的事情所以這一點不好意思召委借用一點時間來進行比較完整的說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5742.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5760.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
謝謝 這個剛才那個第三條有葛如君等的一個修正動議還有侯孟楷等的修正動議我們先請議事人員宣讀完再請我們委員繼續發言修正動議一第三人委員葛如君的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5762.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5790.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
針對那個第三條對照行政院提案的第三條在第八款的部分刪除行政院聚首的特定兩個文字以及在關鍵的後面徵定滋通兩個文字第九款修正為政府均註資財團法人子期營運及資金運用計畫因依預算法第41條第三項規定送立法院及其年度預算書因依同條第四項規定送立法院審議之財團法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5791.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5821.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
修正動議期提案人委員黃孟楷等對照行政院提案在第三條在第第六款的部分莫具徵訂或受政府控制之事業團體或機構等文字第七款的前段修正為指能源水資源通訊傳播交通金融緊急救援與醫院政府機關科學園區與工業區等行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5823.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5842.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
並其檢視並公告之領域中該領域服務所依賴之等文字在第八款的部分也是將行政院聚首的特定兩個文字可以刪除在關鍵的後面增訂知通兩個文字第九款修正為政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5843.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5857.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
均注資財團法人此起引運結智運用計畫因依預算法第41條第三項規定送立法院及其聯度預算書因依同條第四項規定送立法院審議之財團法人宣讀完畢好那現在我們請林國成委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5866.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5876.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
另外葛如今委員跟我們洪孟愷委員有提修正案因為本黨團也是民眾黨的黨版 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5877.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5907.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我要建議我們數位部大概整個大方向應該都是一致的只是因為本黨所提出來的也就是第三條第一項第六款的部分在不足的部分我們的版本是有修正幾個字針對幾個字也就是受政府控制之事業團體或機構這個部分我們是要把它加下去所以這個就提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5908.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5929.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個提供給我們數位部這裡來看看這個要做如何的加入那另外一個我們的行政院版本那大致上方向都有但是是不夠周潛的地方啊也就是我們想針對第十款的部分因為我們到只有到第九款 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5929.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5949.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
所以民眾黨版本裡面定的很清楚也就是受政府控制之事業團體或機構指就是前市部公告的政府所屬的基金會這個就是我們前市部裡面所公告的基金會會盈利轉越累積的該事業資本20%也就是政府投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5956.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5973.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
20%或轉投資的事業都要受政府直接或間接其人事財務或業務的轉投資再投資的事業及團體跟機構這個我們把它訂得非常明確不要說這個法通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5975.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5993.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
但是你的對象不明確所以我們的版本是有針類第十項那主要我舉例大家可能會比較就像中華電信還有我們20%投資的這些都要納入我們那個通 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5994.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6022.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
通保法裡面的這些所有的規範所以這個部分我們建議我們民眾黨的版本我們是甄類那另外一個也是驗版裡面沒有甄類的我們還是想甄類第三項第一項第三條的第一項第十一款這也是我們版本裡面訂的很清楚也就是危害國家資安安全的產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6023.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6040.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
產品也就是大家不是我們本會委員包括黃國昌委員他都一直在指責資通也是危害國家資通安全產品對於國家的治安以及直接或間接造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6041.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6059.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
危害風險影響政府的及社會安定經主管機關定期公告通信通系統及資通服務的產品也要把它納進去如果這個法要定 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6059.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6083.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
方向大家都有了但是細節把它增下去這個是在第三條第一項第六款的部分還有增列第十款的部分跟十一款的部分這是台灣民眾黨所提出來未以完全周全的情況之下我們認為把它定下去會更完善 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6083.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6109.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
目標一樣但是這裡面的執行的細節明確化在我們的法條裡面這樣的話數位部也比較明確的執行的對象這樣以後不會有爭議所以敬請這個數位部採用台灣民眾黨的版本以上跟各位來做說明跟報告那其他委員有沒有什麼意見來 黃中凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6113.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6139.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
好 謝謝主席自通安全管理法我們大家部分朝野都認為說有自通安全加強的一個必要也因此大家各自有反論出來我想這對於中華民國來講就是我們要捍衛我們的自通安全這是大家共同的主張跟立場所以這是核心序名但是在第三條的部分為什麼那麼重要最重要就是因為它等於是管理的範圍跟管理的對象我覺得這有必要再請 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6141.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6169.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
速發部說明清楚因為就現在我們所看到的本期這邊有提到一個修正動議主要是針對第七款就是說關鍵資通基礎設施我覺得應該要寫得更加的明確因為能源水資源通訊傳輸交通金融緊急救援醫療政府機關科學園區工業園區這一些我想都是我們應該要受資通安全保障的也是公權力應該要介入的所以說這一些把它明確的寫出來那 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6170.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6189.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
其餘的部分還有什麼是訴發部認為沒有含瓜道的我覺得訴發部等一下也可以告訴我們一下因為你們所寫的是行政院定期檢視並公告的領域該領域服務所依賴等等的部分那這樣子會變成是有一個空白授權的概念未來行政院如果說有 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6191.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6219.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
檢視公告增加的話他可能不限這些基礎設施他可能也就會含括在這裡面那現在速發部你們的條文裡面因為不管是說明欄也好不管是這個相關條文裡面外界以及國人可能會擔心的是說未來有可能包山包海甚至侵犯到民間的一個部分所以這個部分麻煩請速發部等一下說明清楚那另外第九款也就是所謂的特定財產法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6219.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6235.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我也認同財團法人如果是政府出資或是有相關比較重要財團法人當然應該要受資通安全的保障這一點無庸置疑但是你們今天所寫的其實最主要是63條第一項跟第四項的財團法人法裡面它是有民間捐贈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6237.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6265.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那民間捐贈即便是有多少比例是有這個公股的官方的一個比例但是會不會有侵害到民間的一個狀況所以我們不管是我的版本或是葛國軍委員或是我們其他委員版本是有針對是說第九款政府捐贈的財團法人我們把它更明確化那我們這樣子的寫法跟速發布你們當初想像的財團法人的部分有哪裡不同等一下請告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6266.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6278.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
是不是我們這樣寫法是也含瓜在速發部其實我相信速發部一開始提出來也是認為政府捐贈的財團法人特定的財團法人重要財團法人我們要有資通安全的保障管理維護這個我認同那 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6280.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6307.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
是不是現在大家看一下說如果我們所提出來的受立法院定期送立法院審議的財團法人其實也含瓜素發布你們當初預想的財團法人的話那是不是能夠用我們現在所提出來的條文以避免外界有造成誤會的地方那如果沒有的話請明確告訴我們你們的條文跟我們現在提出的條文裡面有哪些財團法人是 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6308.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6324.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你們想要管理的那這樣子也讓外界知道是說到底我們速發部還想要管理哪些財團法人會不會造成民間的侵權我想這個部分是今天一定要說明清楚的以上 謝謝好 我們請林軍憲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6328.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6354.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好 謝謝主席主席 那個本集就剛剛洪孟愷委員所提的他的修正裡面我看洪委員是把我們關鍵基礎設施他直接把它寫出來那洪委員寫的這個其實也是行政院公告的關鍵基礎設施八大領域但後來行政院又增加了一個糧食所以現在其實是有九大領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6356.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6370.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那我是建議啦就大家思考一下行政院版的他雖然他在法在魔法裡面他沒有寫有明確寫出哪些領域但是他本來他定期就會公告啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6371.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6392.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
大家知道時空的背景移轉等等與時俱進或者是狀況的改變那個靈異有可能會增加有可能會減少像以前政策關鍵記錄設施可能就五項六項現在行政院已經公告到八項現在又公告到九項如果你無法把它定死了你像行政院現在有公告兩死他也要公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6393.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6401.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
但是我們模仿裡面將這個就沒有寫到糧食那以後會不會有再增加那以後增加的話那你模仿沒有寫到沒有規範到會產生這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6405.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6424.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那行政會寫的第一個雖然看起來他沒有明確指出哪些可是原本行政會他就會締結公告有哪些我們就可以比對了啦所以我是建議這個不必把它寫死在有哪幾大領域啦因為關鍵基礎事實他本來就會變動的以上是我的意見謝謝現在我們請行政單位回覆一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6434.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6449.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
是 報告委員會幾個議題我們做簡要說明第一個是關鍵基礎設施那誠如這個林委員剛才提到就這個款在現行的條文跟現在行政院版是一模一樣的那本來行政院就會定期檢視並公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6450.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6478.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那明訂下來反而會僵化掉就是他調整的時候但沒訂在上面固然現在這個提出來修正的版本裡面是說還有其他指定但是通常這種檢視跟公告目的就是說希望能夠定期的review同時讓外界有透明化可以公平所以這個中間完全沒有任何這個隱藏的空間所以我們當然還會覺得而且這個條文在第七款的時候跟現行條文一模一樣那運行多年來都沒有異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6479.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6500.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那我們會建議說還是不需要修正就按照行政院版那至於第八款的特定關鍵基礎設施提供者那這個其實在條文內容裡面是講得非常清楚就是前面關鍵基礎設施依賴的系統那關鍵基礎設施已經是行之有年的這個名詞各機關這民間大家都非常清楚那我們如果再 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6501.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6523.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
中間在差勁資通其實是自私一本那所以我們只是在前面加一個特定就是說有些關鍵基礎設施他沒有資通系統的時候就不在這個範圍之內那有關鍵資料有資通設施依賴的那我們就加進來所以我們當然還是會建議維持這個行政院版本特定關鍵基礎設施提供者那這個也跟各部會都談過了那目的事業主管當然也都覺得說這樣的寫法是比較妥當的 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6526.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6546.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那至於第九款的財團法人我要跟各位報告就是說我們現在現行的條文完全是背後沒有任何政治的考量是因為財團法人法修正之後把政府捐助的財團法人分成三種一個從出資的來看一個是從這個日治時代這個遺留下來的那這其實只有兩個也不會再動了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6547.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6564.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
日治時代已經離我們很遠了就只有電信協會跟郵政協會沒有其他再冒出來第三個是政府實質控制的那我們是因為財團法人法的修正我們完全比照財團法人修正全部移過來那各位會擔心說有沒有增加其實現行納管157 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6566.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6583.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
在財政法人法修正之後反而變成137減少了20個所以我們其實在這一條條文裡面真的資通安全法修正的時候完全沒有考慮說要把哪一個特別拉進來這個是沒有的完全是財政法人法怎麼定我們就怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6585.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6608.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
如果譬如說從剛才談到日誌的部分預算法41條第4項就是我們現在看到的這個葛路軍委員版本的這個預算法41條第4項同樣的電信協會跟郵政協會按照預算法他也是要送到立法院這個預算審議的所以其實這個條文完全是因應財團法門法修正把它定清楚而已完全沒有任何這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6610.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6633.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
政治的考量也好或者是要侵犯人民的權利也好所以我們剛才也報告過所以納管數量其實如果財政法人修正之後反而變少所以大概的情形是這樣我們反而是民眾黨的版本就跟林昭偉報告就是林國生跟昭偉報告說我們真的會覺得說那樣反而會變比較麻煩因為如果降低門檻到20%會增加177個 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6636.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6658.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那這個會有非常多的地方的財團法人會被納進去那其實對地方政府因為治安的責任不是只有中央有地方也有那地方的這個政府也會造成非常大的困擾所以我們還是會建議說維持行政院版本那行政院版本是完全按照財團法人法修正之後的結果那沒有增加任何的反而減少那跟各位做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6664.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6683.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
葛國軍委員謝謝趙偉市長我想我也是非常尊重您的法律背景但是有幾點我還是想要再補充說明一下首先您剛剛提到的第八款其實你們用的特定兩個字其實是某種程度來講是有違法律的明確性原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6684.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6704.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以我們才特地說這就叫做資通安全法嘛所以你就不用什麼特定嘛這個關鍵基礎設施第七款還在喔我先講因為語言上大家可能會融入誤會我們是不是就沒有關鍵基礎設施不是喔是說當我們提到關鍵基礎設施提供者的時候應該要指定是資通 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6704.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6733.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
基礎設施不然你裡面的水啊 電啊 糧食供給啊這個其實變成那些東西的提供者這個範圍馬上就擴大了所以這一點我是希望第八款呢還是要放資通兩個字進來再來第二點剛剛市長你有回覆說你們都依照財團法人法來做沒有政治的考量對 但是我們也知道現在這個狀況我們就看法條啦我們就看法條跟看文件第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6734.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6752.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
財產法人法第63條第一項我再說一次這個法的所指定的這個財產法人是可以變動的而且只要什麼條件就可以變動呢只要有加強監督之必要經主管機關指定的立刻就可以加進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6753.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6775.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我手我剛剛之所以為什麼我花那麼長時間解釋這一份資料只是冰山一角是全序不提供給我們的裡面有華航有貿易中心有文化基金會我們在座有桃園的委員還有小學的文教基金會在裡面啊我是不想念是哪個小學啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6776.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6804.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
一大堆全部的文教基金會國小全部都進來桃園的這個教育真的是做得很好所以裡面一大堆文教基金會宜蘭也有這個各式各樣的基金會只要主管機關伸手一指進來這個就是一個菜單這是一個帝王條款的菜單這是速發部要的嗎速發部不能一句話說我們依照財產法人法指示 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6805.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6831.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那你速發部不是變成下級機關了嗎怎麼會這樣呢 對不起喔我想我們都是資訊人啦市長又是法律人所以我是建議這一條是不是就按照我們的版本第一就是第八款對不起 我們現在提出的修正動議我想因為剛剛好我們的版本跟這個院版有出入嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6832.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6858.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以我們也依據這樣我們也提出一個修正動議我們的修正動議就是這一條我們就不要修了這一條我們就不要修了這一條我們就不要修了我們就回復原狀那否則的話此例一開這個門一開又多一個菜單又多一個日治時期什麼什麼這個我覺得範圍會太大希望懇請與考慮好不好謝謝我們的修正動議就不要修了這一條就不要修了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6861.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6887.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我還是跟我還是跟那個數位部建議行政院板送到立法院來是大家可以談大方向議題都一致只是不足的部分委員跟各政黨把它提出來更完善所以我還是建議數位部千萬不要因為你們提出來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6889.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6915.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
義窮不變的如果不傷整個你們設定出來資通安全管理法的本質我還是建議能夠參考就參考那以現在剛才次長所講如果這個分歧跟抗華差異那麼大我建議主席就先行保留因為後面沒有爭議的先讓他過有爭議的進行溝通跟說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6916.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6932.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
取得最後的這些大家的共識這樣的話省預算不要各收各的如果是這樣的話那省的沒完沒了所以我建議第三條的部分先保留再行溝通以後我們再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6935.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6944.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
關鍵基礎設施的部分不動那關鍵基礎設施提供的那如葛委員剛才所提的維持現行條文也不動那這個我們可以接受那其他部分就按照院版通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6966.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6983.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個針對的部分反而就是反而跟格文的主張會有一點出入就是他會增加非常多會增加177個那剛才提到的格文所提到說那個指定的會變成地方的其實不會因為指定的我們一定要指定全國性的採訪法人才能指定 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6990.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7005.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那各位請到補充我剛有一點口誤就是說按照我還是就是我也也也聆聽看這個抒發部因為還是在執行所以看抒發部的想法那我們有提出我們的版本之外我們的修正動議是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7007.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7034.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
第九款 針對第九款修正動議就是說我們不修正就是我們第九款特定財產法人就不要擴大也不要減少 我們就維持現在那我想行之有年了也許也沒有問題假設未來真的有需要還可以再討論那所以這一點我再簡要補充 謝謝現在主要是第九款那第九款如果倒了行政機關可以參考我們的意見就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7040.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7060.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們有對第六款我們也有放就是因為我們也是怕你後面東西你有一些想管理的政府捐助的財團法人我們有幫你放進來就是你不要是特定財團法人是政府捐助的財團法人不然你其實特定財團法人的範圍其實也還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7061.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7089.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
現在我們也看到還是有一些不確定性所以我想這一點看是不是也考慮一下我先確認一下我們先一項一項來現在就七八九款嘛那如果說第九款財團法人的部分因為我們剛剛提到就是說現行已經有規範就是政府捐贈財團法人如果維持原型條文這樣速發部可以接受嗎第九款因為這個也是我們就想說你這樣子我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7091.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7098.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
政府確認財團法人應該要受自通安全保護這過去現行條文已經有了那只是說你們現在在做這樣子財團法人法的一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7099.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7118.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
到底多增加哪些反而會造成外界的疑慮你們想要再多進來哪些那如果說這樣的話那維持現行條文政府捐贈的財團法人第九款不變是不是可以接受第九款維持現行條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7121.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7133.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那第七款現行條文跟行政院版是改變了所以是現行條文嘛那我現在在確認是會維持現行條文但第七款跟第八款我們可以做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7137.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7152.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
從第六開始到九因為六是連動的六七八九那這一條其他的部分我們就按照行政院版我主張這樣我們針對的地線線不是按行政院版喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7153.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7164.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
第十 第十項都還沒有一個充分的理由我說要針對的部分是沿著你們方向不變我們是針對這些很明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7168.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7185.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
不是啦 那我建議這樣好不好 我建議這樣先保留啦 再談啦好不好先保留再來不是啦 先保留保留我主張保留你總是要說服我我把你們寫得更明確你們又不要寫得模擬兩可 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7186.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7209.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
對不對我們民眾黨幫你們寫的更明確的東西在整個執法的部分你們又怕什麼扣大不扣大我坦白跟你講沒有20%的這個是值得你們想什麼特定不特定我這些是依照前世部公告的東西也就是依照我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7210.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7238.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
考試院的前事部那種東西範圍已經很明確那這個當然要納管啊不然的話還是所以我是建議這樣啦市長我是建議這樣啦如果沒有共識我還是建議讓主席有一個計系走就先保留好不好我建議先保留那其他要溝通要如何去處理那我們還有下一次嘛或者等一下大家有溝通你也想通我也想通 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7239.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7265.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那再回來來討論這個嘛你不要說我們建議這些你那個理由不能說服我嘛不增加的我要把它明確化你不增加那不增加的理由你是怕什麼我想至少我們這邊跟速發部有一個共識就是速發部這邊可以做就是六七八九不修正就是以現行條文那這個我們是可以接受民眾黨說要往後 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7267.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7289.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那待會這個我就對我想先確認一下那個林軍縣委剛有舉手我同意6789不要修正啦因為你第九款吼這個原本我們對這些財產法人的納管是依照財產法人法嘛那你如果改成預算法的話那就會有很多原本納管的財產法人就會不在裡面了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7291.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7297.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那就以我們的建築精神的話其實我覺得第九款應該是維持原版的規定以上我意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7300.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7325.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
報告你維持現行條文現行條文你維持現行是157個嘛啊你如果改掉以後變137個嘛那你乾脆列出哪20個哪20個少了這個給大家看嘛好不好現在大概是行政院民進黨國民黨都認為6789維持現行條文都可以接受那現在剩下民眾黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7327.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7347.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那個林國成召委這個部分意見還有一些意見嘛那現在林國成召委就是說現在民進黨國民黨跟行政院大概都有這樣子的共識如果你可以的話我們就按照這個就直接來通過我想大家都有經過仔細的思考也會尊重民政黨的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7349.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7361.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我針對的部分他們說出的理由因為我針對的部分跟本質沒有改變嘛但是只是明確化嘛我現在就是說國民黨 民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7365.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7389.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
行政的意見都差不多可以嘛林國成可以 我們就6789不是啦 肅發部應該要去看一下啦台灣民眾黨是現行9款裡面多增加第10款跟第11款那如果說現行條文1到9尤其我們剛剛講的6789如果國民黨跟民進黨都已經同意就是維持現行條文 肅發部也可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7389.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7408.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那這樣子就不變但是是不是能夠多增加民眾黨所提的第10款跟第11款如果可以的話就加進去這樣子民眾黨也沒有意見了嘛那如果說你們覺得有意見第10款第11款為什麼不能加你要說服林國成因為現在變成不是國民黨跟民進黨的問題了解我們剛才有跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7410.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7436.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
照林委員報告 加地實款的20%會增加非常非常多其實正好跟剛才葛委員提到說不希望擴增而且我們舉實際例子我們已經調出來了包括桃園市政府要管魚市場的系統苗栗縣政府要管苗栗肉品市場的系統彰化縣政府要管魚市場嘉義市政府要管肉品市場嘉義縣政府要管阿里山公共造產 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7437.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7461.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那其實對於縣市政府的負擔會非常非常大OK 這樣沒關係啦 我們這樣啦 就是如果剛剛郭委員要跟林國成委員討論那林國成委員 現在你認為說還是很堅持就先暫時保留啦 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7462.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7468.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
好啦 他現在說他在擋板 他還在忙電動團啦那說明你總是要讓我傳達 或者要去說明所以這個還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7475.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7492.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
不是不是不是這個因為我們一向我們一向做事情就是要把它明確化那當然這個顧慮的部分也就是說是否會擴大20以上會擴大這種東西你總是要讓我跟黨裡面說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7493.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7517.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
因為我們這個是黨版如果我個人版我馬上可以做決定這是黨版所以請大家也給我一點時間你們要派人來說明然後他們也是認為說啊這個放下去可能會扣大多少那我們的黨版說好那還是原則性尊重尊重所以我還是希望說在這個部分這樣這次第二條一樣暫時保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7521.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7522.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
來,我們來看看什麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7525.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7554.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我講一下就是說因為這一次的修法其實醞釀很久啦那他最主要是要把一些能夠管理的範圍做一些擴增這個大家應該整個書包鋪跟委員應該都很清楚那第一個階段其實就像這一次非公務機關等等之類的納入第二個就是上次我們在講的就是有一些他可能是在民間然後呢他的個資可能是比較多的也可能要納管但那個時候我們在討論的時候就說因為我們不可能一次性的把那麼多的事情在第一次的修法就搞定 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7554.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7569.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以第二次的修法的時候再去把那些涵蓋可能譬如說各自比較多的啊或者像上次我之前提到民眾黨那個催靠者保護法的網站啊這些其實都會有一些疑慮但如果要把這些全部納管用一個抽象的法制放的話太 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7570.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7584.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這個沒有辦法在這一次討論完畢因為他並沒有在這一次原版的範圍之內也不在一開始在520之前就已經在討論的這個修法範圍所以我認為說其實如果可以的話就停在這個第九款第十以後可能可以移到下一次的時候再來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7588.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7609.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好最後就是如果民眾黨OK就6789照原來的現行的通過如果民眾黨不OK我們就暫時保留等一下你去問一下你等一下可以問一下休息之後可以問一下如果可以再回頭再讓他通過的話我們再回頭好那現在這個就先暫時保留好第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7614.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7642.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
第四條在五十頁好 那個葛珞晶委員等一下 李坤澤委員好 謝謝召委等一下 等一下他那個又有修正動議對 那個對 一起看修正動議要先宣讀一下那個黃建豪等那個葛珞晶不是本委員會所以以黃建豪為主黃建豪等這個第四條修正動議麻煩議事人宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7644.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7659.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
修正動議二提案人委員黃健豪、葛禄君等第四條對照行政院提案在第一項的部分徵訂第五款文字內容為五 協助民間處理及因應重大滋通安全事件 宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7660.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7683.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
好 那個國務卿委員完 等一下李昆哲委員好 謝謝昭偉那我想這一條本席是因為近來一直都有發生多起民間企業醫療院所遭到駭客勒索的事件也有很多是半導體科技業那顯示要去建立一個政府跟民間資安聯防的機制真的是有它的重要性跟急迫性 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7684.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7710.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
因此本席的提案版本是在第一項第五款來新增政府來協助民間處理因應重大資安事件來可以去協助他們處理因應跟防範因為這個部分它就是政府有一個這樣的精神跟態度並沒有說民間不得拒絕所以我覺得這也是一個善意它並沒有一個過度擴權的疑慮反而是政府可以負擔更多的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7711.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7735.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
把一雙安全的大手伸向我們的來協助民間真的有必要的話民間無路可走了那他可以來向政府來尋求協助那這一點我們事前有跟速發部來溝通有獲得速發部認同那我們算是在雙方的共識之下來提出修正動議那也懇請各位委員還有本會本委的委員希望可以一起支持謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7737.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7749.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
謝謝李君哲委員 剛剛抱歉因為本委員優先我先看到葛國軍 不好意思李君哲委員謝謝趙偉最主要 我也是第一次發言應該是優先的一個發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7750.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7774.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那第四條是有關於民間企業納管跟資安自主的一個平衡的問題那近年來我們看這個民間企業尤其是金融業跟電商的業者他們的資安漏洞都會引起社會大眾的一個疑慮那其實我們看到其實民間的這種資安防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7775.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7791.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
是有待加強但是另外一方面我們來看如果資安監管的範圍過度的擴張那恐怕也會引發政府來干涉企業資訊自主營運的這樣的一個疑慮甚至擴權侵害人權的隱憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7796.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7819.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
或者是中小企業湊然面對過大的經營壓力這就像台語說的 低怕死 傍怕飛因此我們政府除了要以法規來要求企業提升資安的標準之外我想蘇衛部也應該要積極提供資安技術的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7821.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7839.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
或者是培訓課程或是建立治安的這種共享的平台那幫助企業尤其是中小企業提高自主防護的能力不是一味的要強化管制的相關的措施這等一下再請蘇衛部說明一下以上謝謝那我們請那個沈波漾委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7849.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7876.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我基本上認同就是說呢這個像現在第四條第五款這樣的一個定法當然重大我知道書房部要把重大放上去可能是因為怕真的是太多啦那但是這個比較被動的方式就比剛剛那個第三條好是因為畢竟它就只是民間如果說有這個需求的時候至少還有一個基礎那書房部可以做協助所以還是再回去我還是很希望趕快等一下第三條還是能夠定案不要再往下拖因為第三條現在就是把這個範圍定得太廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7878.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7893.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
如果說我們先把它範圍限定然後利用像這個第四條第五款的一個方式然後去把一些能夠協助的先有一個協助的機制被建立之後以後再慢慢的把這個範圍擴大不然這樣一直擴大下去真的會是沒完沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7895.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7922.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好 謝謝 何孟愷委員好 謝謝召委那幾個部分第四條我們支持這個葛無軍跟黃建豪委員就我這邊也有提的這個修正動議我想第四條的主要重點在於是一開始開宗明義就有講政府提供資源整合民間跟產業的力量提升全民之通安全意識嘛那既然是要整合民間跟產業力量提升全民之通安全意識其實在第五款新增 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7923.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7936.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
因應重大之通安全事件來協助民間處理我想速發部則無旁貸這也是國人期待速發部能夠做的事情那尤其是定義重大之通安全事件因為後面有寫到 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7938.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7956.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
前項相關事項的推動主管機關擬定計劃方案到行政院核定換言之主管機關也可以來定義何謂重大之通安全事件所以主管機關定義之後如果說這一款第五款新增之後主管機關擬定 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7959.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7981.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
發展方案到行政院核定未來國家社會面臨到重大的自通安全事件的時候速發部就有法源依據可以來協助也可以來那個因應所以我想這一個部分如果能夠新增上去的話對於我們的民間自通安全應該是有所幫助以上謝謝好我們請蔡吉昌副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7984.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8000.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
好 謝謝齁 這個第四條齁我謝謝大家都我看起來很多委員的版本都很接近啦齁這個本席在質詢的時候我就已經問過速發部嘛齁我們提出了很多的案例這個案例民間的規模大到 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8001.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8015.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
舉例啦 比如說中華電信他的data已經大到幾乎快要涵蓋全台灣的資通安全了嘛 個資等等所以類似像這種重大的或者大型的民間他面臨 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8017.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8038.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
這個安全問題的挑戰的時候我覺得它視同為跟國家的這個國安的重大安全其實議題是一樣的所以本席最早提出這樣的一個修正那我看今天也包括修正動議也都很多委員都提出我覺得大家都有這樣的共識那我想就不用再浪費太多時間如果大家都有這樣的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8039.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8053.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
速發部的態度是怎麼樣我想請主席趕快問一下如果大家都沒意見我想因為一開始我提嘛看起來現在大家各黨都提了我覺得這個很好嘛大家都有共識是不是速發部有一個態度我們就趕快來把這條做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8055.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8079.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好 那個謝謝幾位委員的這個寶貴意見包括剛剛葛羅軍委員還有幾位像黃孟愷還有蘇建豪還有我們剛剛我們執政黨的委員那因為這個提案在原來裡面包括蔡吉昌委員跟羅梅林委員還有葛羅軍委員都有提這個提案那事實上我們也溝通過所以這邊的包括就是我們第五款我們就增加協助民間處理跟營運重大的自動安全事件那蘇華部這邊沒有意見 謝謝好 照修正動議就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8089.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8117.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
但是参集商委员的非常接近文字上要念一下要确定一下因为有修正动议也有参集商委员的版本两个大概差三四个字来啦 赵伟我建议速发部拟一个版本出来大家签名啦好不好 这样可以吗速发部拟一个文字出来速发部直接翻译大家签名啦这样就照这个再修正动议啦 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8122.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8131.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
就打在那個字幕上對 就打在那個字幕上 大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8154.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8155.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
防彈處理防彈處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8190.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8198.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
改成那個協助民間處理及因應重大之痛安全事件大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8207.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8223.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
好 這樣子OK齁召委 召委整合蔡其昌委員跟我們修正動議啦協助民間處理頓耗因應及防範重大滋通安全事件啦好不好 那這樣子大家的精神也都進來對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8230.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8259.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那因為重大我想這就是讓速發部來定義啦不然未來可能個人的駭客入侵還是什麼他也說要速發部可能速發部這樣子到最後也沒完沒了啦我這個是實際上運作的狀況也給速發部做參考啦好不好補充一下重大的定義在那個刺痛安全事件通報及應變辦法裡面有重大的定義啦所以我覺得這應該法律上沒有太大的問題重大應該沒有問題還有沒有其他委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8261.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8289.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好 那速報部OK嗎OK好 那我們就這樣子 協助民間處理逗點因應 頓耗 因應 我在想什麼 因應及防範重大滋通安全事件 這樣好不好好那我們就照行政院速報部提案修正通過在四條 再來在五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8291.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8317.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
第五條還有一個修正動議洪孟凱等的修正動議我們還是先宣讀一下編號修正動議八提案人委員洪孟凱等第五條對照行政院提案在第二項的中段部分知通安全匯報的後面徵訂由行政院院長召集相關部會首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8318.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8331.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
專家學者及民間團體代表共同組成專家學者及民間團體代表不得低於三分之一至少每三個月開會一次必要時得召開臨時會議訊號完畢好 這一條大家有沒有什麼意見好 第五條好 那個林國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8345.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8366.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這個在我們版本裡面大概也差不多啦這三分之一至少三個應該是應該這種應該是這個就要看數位部啦因為大概也把它放進去的話那我們黨裡面的就沒有什麼意見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8371.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8397.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
黃孟楷委員好 感謝那個 趙偉本條是新增 現行法條沒有那本條新增行政院的文字是寫說行政院應召開國家之通安全會報幕僚作業由主管機關辦理本席認同 因為國家之通安全會議也好 會報也好或是相關的開會 這都必須要做那只是 大家也都知道現在科技日新月異 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8398.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8424.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
兩個月三個月AI進步的陳述學習的陳述甚至駭客等等相關也都有非常突飛猛進的發展也因此我們猜想是說不能只是因召開會議要把相關的時間定下來並且也要授權主管機關這邊要有定期的這個開會的內容那以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8425.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8448.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
專家學者民間代表也可以來做這些意見專業意見的交流以及提供專業意見的判斷所以這也是為什麼本席會提出這個修正動議認為是說院長召集相關的會議三個月至少三個月開一次那必要時候召開臨時會議因應重大的資通安全的相關事件發生那這些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8450.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8459.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
讓第五條能夠更完整也讓我們真真正正的這個所謂的國家自動安全匯報能夠落實來去執行以上 謝謝好 國務卿有言 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8468.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8490.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
這條我們有一個想法是因為我們也是覺得是由行政院院長來擔任召集人因為我們看了一下行政院院長擔任召集的人的有行政院文化會報行政院毒品防治會報行政院治安會報跟國家化學物質管理會報這幾個是由院長來擔任召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8490.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8502.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
因為治安真的非常重要尤其在下一個世代我們對於所謂的國安的定義所以這一點我沒有特別堅持但是稍微說明一下我們為什麼會認為是應該有院長來擔任召集人謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8505.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8527.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好 黃建豪委員好 謝謝張委員那我想這個因為在這個新增版本裡面院版本來只有講說是由行政院應召開這個國家資本安全匯報好 但是因為這個行政院到底誰由誰來召開我想法沒有明定那我覺得這個在柯澤上面會有一些問題所以我們才把說這個應該由行政院院長來召集相關部會首長的部分把它放進去那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8528.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8545.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
在實務上面院長會被指派其他人那是院長的事情啊那他如果指派其他人那但是最後的苛責的對象當然還是院長那我們也希望說既然這個資安這麼重要那確實就應該由院長來負責任而不是就單純由行政院這樣子一個比較隆統的概念來處理以上謝謝好那行政單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8553.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8573.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
跟委員會報告就是說現行我們其實是有一個資安長的體系那院的資安長是副院長那所以行政院這副院長就是主持這個匯報那提升到行政院 行政院長的事務是非常非常繁忙的那反而會就是資安長的體系沒辦法建立所以我們當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8574.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8598.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
當然會建議說按照院版其實沒有問題就是我們現行就是副院長來召開這個自動安全匯報而且不光是各部會其實我們會邀請其他各院甚至地方政府因為這個自然是一個全國性的事務那這些詳細的都會定在我們將來的辦法裡面其實我們現行有定一個要點所以我們現在最後一項有寫說國家自動安全匯報的組成任務議事程序跟相關的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8599.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8613.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
有行政院定制 就是這個不是速發部可以隨便定的這是行政院定的那這樣其實是最完整的就是那如果我們在這邊定死了其實反而不好調整那國家事務安全會報其實我們當然都一定會定期召開 這沒有問題跟各位報告好 那其他委員 陳書業委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8624.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8651.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
謝謝主席就是針對草案第五條我這邊是有一個文字的一個建議修正就是在第一項的部分就是院版是就是說未落實國家資通安全政策各政府機關中央及地方間那我就建議說這邊是不是就把它修正成中央及地方政府機關間因為我想這樣子的文字意義並沒有變可是是比較精簡一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8652.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8663.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那我是這樣子的一個建議那另外就是說有關這個召開國家自動安全匯報這邊本協是建議說是不是要明定要定期召開好像是會比較明確謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8668.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8690.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
定期可以啦但是定多好其實讓我們在辦法裡面定辦法到時候也會送到立法院來查照這樣那那個委員有期許說希望這個我們同意說我們其實可以在說明來說清楚說現在這個是由這個行政院副院長召集這個包括中央地方各院來這我們在說明來做補充好了來那個改一下就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8696.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8697.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
在上面改一下,讓大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8720.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8743.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
好那這樣子那個洪委員那個時間不用訂那麼細啦就定期那來那這樣子因為剛剛這是母法就是法令的一個精神嘛你說不要說至少三個月開一次但是你們自己的一個期待譬如說你的相關辦法部分你們預計定期會多久開一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8746.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8763.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
還是你要不要寫進法跟你們實際做其實我重點是在於是落實啦你們自己期待到底多久開一次也是三個月我們現在的大概至少半年會開一次至少半年對有重大的資安情勢變化的時候我們會再增加召開那這個其實我們會建議說這讓我們在辦法裡面寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8769.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8793.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以至少你現在的規劃是至少半年開一次會然後必要時召開臨時會議對不對我想這樣好不好那這樣子我們是不是保留必要時得召開臨時會議這部分必要時得召開臨時會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8797.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8811.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好先改一下沒關係那那個黃建豪委員好謝謝主席那個確認一下你們提的這個國家自動安全匯報的這個程序跟行政院國家自動安全匯報設置要點是一樣的事情嗎還是不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8813.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8837.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
就是這個事情吧那你因為你們在這個行政院的這個國家資產會報的設置要點裡面有提到說會議裡面當然會所指派所謂的學者那才有兼由學者專家來參與會議但是並沒有寫到比例的問題那我想在這個修正棟裡面洪孟凱委員提到的其實包含說希望說專家學者跟民間團體的代表不要低於三分之一就是不能全部都是政府官員這樣的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8838.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8847.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你們因為在本來的行政匯報要點在這個國家安全匯報要點裡面沒有設置所謂比例的問題那如果把它入法對你們來講會不會有障礙以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8850.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8872.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這第一個跟我們報告就是說我們還是建議說民間的代表不要定死因為國家所謂國家資通安全匯報主要是政府的這個資通的聯防的問題那所以我們還是建議說不要定死比例但是一定會邀請專家選手來參加而且我們會看議題那看這個專長選手是不是可以容許我們在這個執法裡面來做詳細的規定我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8878.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8896.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們提的臨時動議都有尊重嘛就是定期然後必要時召開臨時會我想這個法不要定那麼細啦那大原則精神我們可以把握住這樣好不好不是不是我民眾黨的版本是跟他的修正動議啊大概目標是較為接近啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8897.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8914.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
那剛才數位部就是考慮到本來你們平常的資安長是副院長來主持嘛那事實上我們訂這個是比較明確化其實像在這個部分在這個部分應該是院長到底是院長或副院長應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8916.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8944.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
照我們的版本可以參考一下也就是行政院院長或指定人這個問題也是解決所以就變成院長已經入這個華很明確的以示行政院長也重視這個會議也重視這個會議就變成不一定是院長來開啊他有時候指定秘書長指定副院長都可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8946.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8971.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
所以我是覺得說有時候我不明確化的法令設定總比在那邊模擬兩可還好所以我還是建議是否可以採用這個部分就可以解決不一定院長但是表面上院長要負這個全部責任但是由他指定的人包括秘書長包括副院長都可以這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8973.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8989.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
或指定這個問題就可以解決啊為什麼我們要把它明確化你們認為你們認為一定是照你們的版本所以這個我還是建議我還是堅持還是照能不能照民眾黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8991.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9014.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
跟林昭偉報告 可不可以這樣子好不好就說昭偉我們就按照指示說我們加油行政院長及指定職人擔任召集人在底下卻職專家真的就不要幫我們定死因為我們其實治安議題非常多我們通常會看不同的議題來處理如果這樣子的話我們就按照昭偉指示前面那段 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9015.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9023.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
加一句話說由行政院長或指定職人擔任召集人那後面的就還是回到我們的版本可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9027.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9046.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個特別啊不是啦特別跟我們主席跟各位在座的委員做說明跟報告我坦白講黃部長在這裡次長你在這裡民眾黨的版本你有些都有去溝通到現在為止我沒有接到你們溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9049.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9075.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
沒有時間去溝通有時候我已經跟你講今天是台灣民眾黨的版本非林國成委員的版本所以到現在為止你們都沒有溝通可是我沒有接到這些溝通啊也不召會啊來開會的是我啊那我相信將心比心啊不管國民黨也好民進黨也好黨版的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9077.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9093.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我要去推荒真的是很困難的事所以我還是認為如果不行那還是保留再來溝通好 謝謝那個包括那個林國成委員 趙偉其實他有去找你們當團 請你們當團用力啦這個大概我都知道這個過程沒關係那我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9100.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9112.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
改這樣子好不好行政院院長或指定之人擔任召集人必要時得召開臨時會議那其他的細節我想法就不用聽那麼細我們就照這樣OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9120.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9135.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
其他的要點就讓他再要點如果在這個部分啦要這樣的話要這樣的話還是要有一個附帶附帶結議就是把這些細節的部分定在你們的實行細則辦法裡面這樣較為明確就連貫性啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9143.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9147.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
行政院長或其指定之人這個指定之人有點會放在法律裡面喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9165.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9189.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
就沒有必要 坦白說行政院沒來他有副院長代替或什麼 那他們有他的機制嘛那如果多一個指定之人 變成他如果今天院長心情好想指定任何人是不是都可以我們本來是寫副院長嘛那就是 不然就院長或副院長嘛 這樣可以嗎行政院院長或副院長可以啊院長或副院長嘛 本來就是 他們是副院長嘛那你們現在意見就院長或副院長嘛這樣好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9192.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9194.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
自然實際上是副院長在付錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9208.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9229.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個來市長市長我建議這樣啦 專家協者還是把它放進去那至於其他要多久開一次會由你們去做決定這樣就變成這個版本已經容縮院長副院長也就是你們的資安長他也可以去開會但是把專家協者的部分也把它秀下去 秀在華裡面這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9232.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9246.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
才比較有一個明確的法令照報告我們可不可以這個寫在說明欄裡面說我們會邀請專家學者來參與這樣因為專家學者他如果那個定下來以後真的資安議題是非常多的啦我們開會通常都會找那個議題的特別專家那個是專家學者也是一樣啊也是一個授權那個也是你們在找的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9269.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9279.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
具部分其實是非常多的如果要這樣放其實是這時候永遠放不完我們第四項已經有授權我們會訂相關辦法這個辦法也會送到大院來備查這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9286.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9294.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那個地方我們說在他的說明欄或者是辦法把林國正委員你們考慮的問題也把它考量進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9297.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9311.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我已經沒有要求你們把三分之幾三分之幾把它明確化因為如果你把院長跟副院長這個已經放進去把寫者專家也把它秀進去那這個華我就不堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9313.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9340.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
也就是寫者專家 民間寫者專家把它秀進去 反正你們也要這樣做嘛把它放進去 那我就不堅持這個案子就照人修改所以照你們的那個稍微去修改 其他比例我就不堅持嘛那不然我這個黨版其實那黨給我的責任就是照照所有我們那個洪孟愷所修正的東西那你最起碼要把它放進去嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9344.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9370.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
這樣好不好我們就再加一句話是不是可以召集相關部會先不要就直接就林昭偉只是強調是那個那個邀請學者專家跟民間團體參加就那是不是就在召集人對加得邀請得邀請得邀請專家學者及民間團體參代表出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9379.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9384.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
得邀請專家、學者及民間團體代表出席必要時的召開臨時會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9400.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9422.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
完善啦要完善因為我比較不贊同行政院版送來我們要照單前說這點我是很反對但是大家商討出來把言語不變但是內容充實這是立法院應該是雙方要溝通的那個不要說我們放任何東西都違反你們那個這點我是反對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9426.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9450.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
OK 那郭臣委員 現在就是說把你的意見也加進來嘛行政院長或副院長擔任召集人 這個是葛委員跟黃委員的意見嘛邀請專家學者及民間大德 邀請專家學者及民間大德這個是林委員你們的意見嘛 現在都有放進來林石輝這個跟黃委員的意見大概都有放進來嘛 好不好那我們這個就照這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9452.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9481.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
照行政院提案修正通過那等一下我們休息十分鐘那是不是請那個林國成委員就是剛第三條你跟你們黨團討論一下看有沒有機會我們剛暫時保留看有沒有機會一併處理好了現在先休息十分鐘大家去上廁所一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9494.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9496.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
还有好几条啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10079.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10097.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
現在開始開會現在第六條黃靖豪等也有修正動議請宣讀一下修正動議三體驗人委員黃靖豪葛如君等 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10098.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10122.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
第六條對照行政院提案在第一項的部分中段並因定期兩個文字修正為每年以及在安全情勢報告的後面刪除對公務機關等文字宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10125.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10150.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好 那個國務卿委員好 謝謝張委員我表達一下本席是只對本條提出一個簡單的修正動議在第一項希望可以載明主管機關應該每年去公布這個國家自通安全情勢報告跟自通安全維護計畫的實施情形跟計劃狀況的報告那這一點我們有跟速發部有溝通過也達成共識也希望大家可以一起支持 謝謝好 速發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10156.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10176.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
有沒有意見沒有意見好那大家還沒沒有意見了好根據那個那照委員黃建豪國務卿等所提修正都已通過好那第七條第七條在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10181.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10187.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
八十一啊七十九頁第七條大家要配一件好 國務軍人 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10192.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10217.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這條一樣還是主管機關的問題因為這裡這一次院版的版本呢在主管機關全部都是寫治安署那我還是要表達這樣子的一個設計會不會到時候各部會在聯繫上面呢直接治安署變成天下第一署那速發部變得反而是不知情的狀況那我反而是為次長跟部長抱不平那我想這可能這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10219.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10242.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
反而怕這個到時候其實也會怕資安的這整體的這個戰略上變成有過度傾斜在單一的數那因為資安資通其實也有很多產業的部分所以這點我想沒有就是還是提出一下因為第7條那這點這個林國成委員有說暫時保留啦我說在主管機關的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10244.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10254.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
行政院除了主管機關我們訂治安署真的沒問題因為比較明確大家才知道這個要送給誰來核定跟被查那所以這個沒有我們部長對署長這是有完全的這個指揮監督的能力這個沒有問題這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10261.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10282.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們會建議按照院版啦其實我是建議召委 雖然我不是本委不好意思還是尊重尊重本委員會但是因為剛剛林國成委員有針對主管機關這個部分也希望說我們剛剛有共識啦就說先暫時保留那我們是不是有主管機關的這個部分我們先到最後一次嘛那我們就一次回來跟第二條一樣 暫時保留嘛好那再來第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10294.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10322.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
九十幾九二五九十第二條因為第二條就是到底是書法部還是治安署大家有暫時保留後面這個問題其實都類似類似第二條的問題九十四月第八條也是一樣就跟第二條一樣所以還是暫時保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10323.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10341.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好 再來對 就是又卡住 數位部的卡在數位部的 還是那個產發署的現在跟第二條一樣嘛 都放在那啦113 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10351.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10369.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
113也是類似這個問題第九條113資安署或是速發部這個問題也一樣那這個跟第二條一樣一併暫時保留嘛好 大家有沒有什麼意見這條都一樣 這個問題改過就改過了現在看這個問題到時候再寫上去再說好了 119第十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10384.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10409.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
不一樣第十條大家來 葛珞俊委員這個謝謝昭緯那第十條現在有一個狀況就是資中安全的確保跟維護呢是很怕自己檢查自己自己說自己沒問題所以本席修正動議有就是我們有在想就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10412.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10428.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個相關的建制應該要有檢查應該要有公正第三方的驗證那第四項呢則是強調一樣也是導入第三方協作的機制那這個再請這個速發部參考看看 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10432.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10456.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我們有跟委員報告過就是說因為治安的整個機制他事務非常繁雜所以他沒有辦法說每一種都用第三方機制但是在委員那個精神我們可以在相關辦法裡面去定說某些情形下有第三方機制但某些可能我們真的做不到所以這個是不是可以按照院版來通過那我們會在相關機制裡面把它處理進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10458.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10476.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
各位這個我是建議是不是可以保留下來因為我還是要強調啦因為我們之前呢在未還委員會也有執行過一個專案是一個好幾億的案子衛福部委託公演院 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10477.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10499.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那工業院很可能未來在資安查核上說不定又委託資安院那變成政府的左手委託給右手右手又說左手做得好棒棒我覺得在資安上面如果沒有第三方公正進來其實我想這種自己監督自己的情況自己說自己好安全的情況我覺得也不會是我們政府表達安對國安的一種重視所以這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10500.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10521.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我們想要說是不是有機會我們是不是來保留一下未來可以跟產業有更多的溝通那因為在美國其實會有第三方公正的單位或者公司協力的做法所以這一點我們是希望看委員會這邊速發部這裡是不是我們可以保留本會委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10531.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10550.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我是建議保留然後開供應會爭取業界意見的不然就像剛剛葛維銘所說的自己說自己好棒棒或說自己公務機關省自己的東西這個這個會不會專業都不足的問題所以我拜託我是希望先保留看後面要不要開供應會來徵求業界的意見以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10555.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10577.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我們先謝謝召委這邊我想因為這個葛偉銀這邊提到其實是蠻重要的第三方的這個相關的這個驗證那這部分其實在我們的續行細則裡面都有寫所以事實上在續行細則裡面都有提到這個部分那但是因為葛偉銀這邊蠻重視這個部分那我想我們事先保留一下之後再看這個詳細的情況再來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10580.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10607.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好 那就先保留 後續再處理大部都保留了 大家可以稍微通融卡在這個樹花部分那個135頁第二章 章敏公務機關之通安全管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10610.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10610.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
隔路巡還有一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10623.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10642.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那個沒有了好那就第二張到第二張張明明沒問題了你說葛如君有一個21人的提案是議題就不議裁了那個沒了嗎OK好那個葛如君等21條那個應該是黃建豪兩個本委員會好 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10648.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10653.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
好那第二張照片OK嗎那再來第11條來那個黃婕委員再來沈伯漾委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10661.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10691.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
好那针对这一条其实在院版跟那时候我跟部长在这边质询的时候我就已经有建议过部长了就是知道说这个因为其实在行政院2020年的12月的时候就已经下达这个下令公务机关原则上禁止使用及采购大陆厂牌资通讯产品的这个函嘛也就是说目前的公务机关本来就已经禁止采购跟使用任何中国制的资通讯的产品 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10691.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10710.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那既然都已經是明確化了我那時候就建議說是不是可以直接入法把它寫到這個法條裡面然後那時候部長也表示同意我的看法覺得說寫在法條裡面是可行的可是目前看起來院版還是並沒有做這樣的修正那我是不是可以在這邊再建議說可以直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10710.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10733.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
其實也蠻多委員都是這樣子的版本就是把這個禁止採購陸資廠商或中港澳的資通服務系統跟設備這樣子的明文把它寫進法條裡面呢因為我們都知道說其實中國在這個資通訊產品裡面會他們是會埋設後門的而且是會把資料有可能回傳到中國的境內那甚至是有遠端操控的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10733.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10756.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那其實上週這個美國的聽證會裡面也特別強調中共現在針對這種網路的攻擊跟他們這種資通訊的這種網路戰的部分是非常強化的那我們更應該要審慎的來防範所以我覺得把它明確化是好事所以這邊是不是可以請教部長的意見有沒有可不可以直接把它入法呢請部長回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10758.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10783.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
好 等一下一起回應來 沈博洋委員好 我一次說就是說這一條其實溝通了也蠻久的其實是在在同胞部長那個時候一直到現在都在討論這一條那當時其實我們在討論的時候有兩個地方就是第一個就是等一下也可能是請事務發布說明一下第一個就是採購就是說因為我們採購法本來就有相關的一個規定但是就像我們如果說我們在宣誓性的假設我們就在這邊把 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10783.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10800.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
不得採購下載安裝採購下載採購這個放進去跟不放採購這個差別在哪裡可能請這個速發部等下說一下那另外一點就是說呢到底要不要把這一個中國這個境外敵對勢力實質控制這一個是要放在修法理由還是要放在 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10801.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10820.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
11條本身它的差別是在這裡就是說如果我們今天在11條把它直接入法的話這個宣示性很強因為它不是只有在針對職通它是直接認為說只要有這樣實質控制都不能夠使用如果是放在修法理由的話那就是變成這個院本這邊提的這些包含但不限於 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10821.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10847.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我覺得包含但不限於這一個國安法或者反滲透法或所稱這些實質的控制那這個是請蘇化部再說明一下因為這其實也是溝通滿久的但我們想知道這一個最終的這個結論好謝謝好那我們請蘇化部說明就兩個部分報告就是我們就是資通安全法的角度是管實用下載就是它你怎麼買我們不在乎就是它有些政治市場網路上是免費的但是它不可以用就是不可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10848.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10863.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那採購的部分其實工程會他們已經在修他們的這個資訊傳統那邊有一整套的制度包括採購可不可以申訴可不可以調解那我們會建議說那讓採購公共工程主管機關來處理這個其實我們跟工程會談過非常多次他們也都OK這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10864.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10878.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
採購再放進來的話變成這個法跟採購法的效力到底是什麼會變得很亂所以我們會建議說我們就管實用下載這個安裝的部分那這個有關於這個要不要明訂說這個中國大陸地區或香港澳門等等那這個就誠如剛才這個申委員所說 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10881.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10905.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們跟幾位委員大家都報告過就是說因為這個是有其他法令的明定的那我們是不是可以就再說明說清楚那這個也很清楚這個大概政府已經政策宣示過很多次就包含但是不限於國安法及反送中法包括的中國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或所設立的實質控制的組織機構團體或人員這個其實在國家政策上面是非常明確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10909.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10934.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
因為我們第十一條第一項的部分當然因為所有驗版的前段我們都基本上沒有什麼意見也就跟我們抗華比較一致但是我們還是建議請次長部長這裡考慮一下就是我們希望把它增訂下去有些文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10935.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10957.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
看要刪減或增加也就是遵守下列規定一也應該指定特定區域及特定人員使用卻不得傳播影像或聲音供不特定的人士來收視或收聽這個是第一 這是第一也這是我們台灣民眾黨的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10957.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10965.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
第二 過滯理由消失或者使用連線借滿應立即燒毀第三點 其他主管機關指定之事項這個在補足 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10974.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10993.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
你們在定定的沒有明確化的這些所以我們把它甄列這123項也就是充分授權主管機關指定各項的事項所以以上也請我們次長跟部長做一個參佐謝謝國軍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10996.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11016.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好謝謝趙偉我想針對這一條本席有部分跟李進黨想法我也想法是一樣好就是應該要更明確化那因為第一點我想我們都認同啦不能使用危害國家自動安全的產品但是危害國家自動安全的產品到底要如何認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11017.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11043.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
本法通過以後審查程序如何包含由誰來進行審查審查標準是什麼多久來進行一次截至目前為止呢本席的辦公室數次詢問治安署但治安署目前為止完全沒有辦法提出完整的配套措施那這又是一張空白授權而且呢治安署還在送立法院的版本當中在說明欄第三項增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11044.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11064.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
本法所定的危害國家自通安全的產品包括但不限於反滲透法所稱滲透來源實質控制者所提供之產品這一條等於是超越了反滲透法的存在變成自通安全法變成了一個以治安為名超越反滲透法的存在是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11065.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11084.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
尤其我想要請各位委員不管是哪一個政黨的注意一下這一個版本這一個條文在113年就2024年的7月4號行政院記者會會後提供這個資安法的草案給媒體參考的版本裡面並沒有相關的文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11084.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11107.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
但是同一天送到立法院审查的版本当中却偷渡了这团文字这一段文字在说明栏当中这代表什么呢代表这个版本在一天之内竟然有AB版给记者媒体的是A版没有这个超越反渗透法的条文给到立法院的版本竟然是有超越反渗透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11107.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11128.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那這樣子到底是不是有什麼希望還是不希望大家看到呢那如果我們沒有看到這個超越反滲透法的存在是不是就這樣子沒有經過社會的討論跟媒體的報導就要通過了那當然我們也不想要過度去擔憂跟懷疑所以呢我們覺得這個偷渡會不會是個意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11129.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11150.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那兩個版本為什麼有差異本席辦公室也一直在詢問速發部結果速發部到現在沒有給本席一個合理的說法那這樣子民間的疑慮就有其道理那如果這部自動安全管理法就這樣三讀通過本法限制的自動安全產品的來源將正式超越反滲透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11152.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11170.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那這樣我們人民如何信賴啊那相關的審查程序風險評估以及使用限制等等通通空白的授權給主管機關來訂定這個我要再說一次違反法明確信原則速發部等同於成為資安產業界的太上皇 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11172.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11186.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
這個是一個帝王條款掌握所有廠商喔我要注意變成是誰覺得誰比如說現在有人說M開頭的社群平台裡面有受到誰控制雖然沒有一個明確的定義它可以被放進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11187.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11203.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那它就是屬於這個資通安全危害產品我要請大家注意這條文裡面這個資通安全危害產品不是只限於看得到摸得到的聽得到的下載得了的網站都可能算是產品那這樣子有明確嗎第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11204.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11206.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
這個就是我們剛剛講的AB版B版才有A版沒有那這個相關的規定政府可能要進行地方政府可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11219.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11243.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
要进行大规模的查核去确保所有自行委外运营场所提供这些相关的产品或服务有没有相关的这个状况甚至每次产品清单的更新因为你没有说你多久更新一次你有没有可能两个礼拜更新一次两个礼拜更新一次地方政府又再次清查我们有没有相关的人力我们有没有相关的人事跟业务的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11244.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11267.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
本席有向台北市政府索取所謂自行及委外營運場所相關的資料我手上這一份光台北市有230個自行或委外營運的場館有台北小巨蛋有停車場有動物園這裡面有多少公佈螢幕和喇叭要清查一個木柵動物園有多少相關的這些細節老人照護 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11270.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11297.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這個老人公寓老人養護中心親子場館這些全部會在這個修法範圍之內我們有沒有足夠的量能那剛剛為什麼我們第二條會很擔憂說主管機關直接設定為資安署資安署編制只有117個人那他們要怎麼去各縣市一一清查呢那不能中央修一個法這個成本全部由地方政府廠商來負擔所以我想這種做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11299.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11322.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
希望可以避免所以但我們理念在部分是一致的就是希望要保護國家安全不要有危害國家自動安全產品的做法但是應該要符合法明確性的原則那假設你真的要清查那你就要講清楚你多久更新一次清查的成本人力費用誰來負擔否則這樣我想這個可能也會讓地方政府感受到自愛難行謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11325.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11343.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好謝謝黃建豪委員完了再來陳書業委員好謝謝張偉我想我對這條的一些想法跟大家表達一下因為就是在說明欄裡面講說包含但不限於反滲透法所稱的滲透來源實質控制者所提供的產品我想這個有點空白這是空白授權因為在後面你要講說要授權由 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11344.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11359.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
主管机关来定定办法好来符合这个明确性原则那里面有提到一些这个条件那我就应该反过来就说你先定出相关条件那我们再看这个法怎么使用嘛也不能说我先同意了你这件事情就是包含反渗透法 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11361.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11383.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
包含但不卸反射通法那其他的怎麼辦那如果沒有反射通法裡面的我也不知道我們現在訂制法之後你們未來會列哪些出來嗎那這樣對公務機關或對所謂的這個委外業者來講他會很大的困擾所以這部分是第一件事情那第二件事情是我們提的修正中裡面有特別提到這個因為你們提到說自行或委外營業場所提供公眾視聽或使用傳播設備把這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11385.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11411.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
實務上我覺得這也需要跟地方政府可能也可能要透過公聽會的方式來了解實務上面對會有什麼問題比如說我們馬上遇到的問題說地方政府有很多比如長照據點就是委外經營那長照據點裡面這些上課的老師他使用的這些產品是不是也算是列管的範圍裡面那還有公托公幼各場館運動中心等等的這些部分它裡面是不是都不能使用所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11411.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11435.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
包含淡不限於反制作法所訂的這個產品會不會有這個問題所以這個這個授權太廣大太廣了那我們也不確定到底你的這個到時候會哪些東西被列上去所以我會覺得應該反過來你先把東西先列出來你先正面表列出來然後再回來管制而不是我先授權說都給你去去處理了我覺得這個法的邏輯是應該反過來講才對以上謝謝好陳樹葉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11442.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11445.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
我們說定位 其他人有意見嗎還是唱書呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11449.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11471.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
不好意思 就是針對這一條 我有一些想法想請教一下 當然就是說每個委員講的都很重要就是說 如果說把危害國家自動安全產品在法條裡面明確化的話是不是可以讓民眾比較清楚容易得知說哪些是法律規定會危害到國家治安的產品像剛剛很多委員是這個想看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11476.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11492.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那如果說反過來我們去思考說如果沒有被列到的那是不是會有漏網之魚會不會有漏網之魚呢那這又該怎麼去處理因為剛剛葛文君委員在擔憂說這樣子是不是空白授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11493.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11516.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那如果說明確化了那之後是不是會有漏網之魚那這要怎麼處理因為我們知道現在畢竟我們面對這個中共的一個滲透是非常的嚴重那我們要怎樣在未來這個資訊尤其是人工智慧越來越發達的這種狀況下我們要怎樣去讓我們的這個資安更安全能夠抵禦這樣子的一個滲透謝謝好 那聖伯陽委員換那個魯冰哲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11524.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11543.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
不好意思第二次發言那這個我覺得這邊可能有大家討論的時候可能有點誤會就是說呢今天我們在講這個危害自動安全這個概念本來就很廣所以沒有什麼超越什麼反射到不超越的問題在今天說什麼包含但不限於的意思是說今天所謂的危害自動安全產品範圍很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11545.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11566.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
但不只是有跟反送中法這些有關的所以比如說我舉個例子假設今天這個資安上本來就有疑慮比如說它有後門它有漏洞那這是危害自動安全的產品那如果說今天是一個解放軍下轄的團體它所製造的一個軟體這本來就對我們來講即使它安全無虞我們可能都沒有辦法使用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11566.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11585.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
因為對我們來講這個你一旦使用下去了那就已經直接造成了一個國安的危機所以這就是為什麼在修法裡他必須去講說他要告訴你說危害國家自動安全的產品除了本來的資安疑慮之外還包含了這些被黨政軍實質控制所製造出來的這個我們不能夠使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11585.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11603.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那只是說到底要把它放在修法理由還是要把它放在這一邊所以如果你不把這個定進去反而是更不明確嘛因為你危害自動安全產品它本來就是一個很廣義的概念那你今天在裡面有一部分你把它明確化剛剛我看到那麼多委員一直這樣強調明確那其實你把這一個所謂的黨政軍實質控制 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11605.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11634.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
的組織等等之類所提供的產品把它放進去這不就是一個很明確的事項嗎所以它不但不是說它不但第一個它是明確第二個它沒有超越的問題啊因為它是把這個危害自動安全產品那麼大的範圍裡面有其中一小塊很明確的告訴你是什麼那其他的話它還是要專業認定嘛所以這樣的一個立法方式就是是要放在哪一個我沒有意見我只是要講說到底今天我們放在哪邊的差別它的宣示意義的強弱的一個差別而已齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11634.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11637.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所以這邊可能剛剛在討論的時候我看好像聽起來是有點誤會好我們請左邊政務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11645.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11664.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
來 謝謝主席針對這一條我個人的意見是其實採購法在公務單位很多人規定不能採購的自動產品早就有規定那對一般的公務機關他買都不能買了那當然你們現在考慮不光是實體的物品包括了一些service那我覺得這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11666.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11681.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
到底有沒有跟地方政府因為你的公務機關是不光是中央所有地方政府裡面你們包括了剛剛第三條很多的疑慮也是到底你納管的範圍到底要多寬現在看起來這一條有特別寫到不光是公務機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11682.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11700.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
還包括了它所有的一個委外的一個場域場館所提供的相關一些傳播設施公共的一個視聽等等的那這個東西要講清楚因為現在我們公共的場域有好幾種經營的模式有一種是蓋好OT給別人我根本什麼都不提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11701.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11727.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後那OT的成本到底是人家要用什麼樣的一些東西那現在要誰去檢查你要地方政府去檢查那也沒問題但是你要公聽會跟人家溝通一下包括了各個地方政府有多少向的委外的一個場館不同的模式有時候還不是OT的模式是純粹服務的部分請人家服務來帶一些這個不管是銀髮族人家也買了一些設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11728.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11742.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
所以這個的部分範圍到底要多廣這個部分我建議是要跟相關的一些可能受影響的地方政府做一個公聽會或者溝通最後我也是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11744.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11759.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
明確一點 危害國家自通安全產品當然除了我們採購法規定了之外我們還是希望你要能夠正面表列不然這些地方政府他們都不是自通專家哪些不能用你現在又扯到可能委外的一些機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11761.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11786.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
你不能說他根本不知道啊那你我又問了幾次啊那我們說也不多說不方便公告我的天啊你要求一些單位來遵照遵照一些你不方便公告的這些具象的或者軟體的一個產品然後你讓人家假設買了然後營運了讓人家停工或者拆掉我就覺得這個是法令我們支持啊可是你這樣不明確我是覺得是還要繼續討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11791 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11819.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
什麼樣委員我快速的follow那個剛剛盧委員的問題就是說現在這個公告有很多種啦就是說是對外公告還是說對於這一個有可能必須要遵守的公告所以可能這一個部分可能書法部說明一下就是說我的理解是可能是沒有對外但是對於要遵守的可能有有他們是需要是得知的不然他因為他需要遵守所以這可能等一下也可能是書法部一併回答好謝謝意見分歧請那個書法部回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11822.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11847.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我先說明那如果不足的話我再補充第一件事情就是說有關於它是包括說為什麼是包括不限於這個反生動法的規定那原因就在於說這個沈委員說的很好自動安全產品危害國家自動安全有兩種一種是被這個中國大陸或是港澳控制的因為他按照國家法令他就可以看裡面的資料那這個是明顯就會有發生一些這個自動安全的系統性的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11848.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11851.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
另外有一些自動安全產品他即便是 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11852.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11878.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
我們要講最極端的即便是美國或台灣做他如果做得很爛裡面有很多木馬城市這個不會是他公司是誰控制的問題而這個產品根本就不該用那所以我們說包括這個不限於其實就如剛才沈委員所講是從自動安全去考量他如果控制上造成系統性風險我們也不允許這個產品如果很爛那這個我們也不能用那他就不見得是中國做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11879.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11907.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
他即便是台灣做的大概我們也不能夠容許所以第一點做報告那第二個就是說這個到底怎麼認定的問題那其實當然有關於自動安全的審查程序風險評估其實非常這我們在辦法會在辦法裡面明定那剛才沈委員提到一個很重要的問題就是說那大家怎麼怎麼知道其實這個機制其實我們已經建立蠻多年從108年開始初步開始建立到現在那我們不公告的一個基本上的原因就是你只要公告把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11909.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11928.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
五項 那他就逃避嘛 他就稀產地就好 他就貼牌就好那其實是公告不夠 因為自動安全其實是一個動態的狀態啦 就是說但是我們會不會讓公務機關無所適用 其實是不會的因為我們是有 將來會有個情資分享機制 需要使用的人他問 他就會得到答案那另外一件事情就是說 啊如果你你這個 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11930.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11954.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
到底不知道要用什麼不知道要買什麼其實我們本部其實另外設立一個機制就是有所謂資訊產品的共同採購契約共同採購契約上面都是我們資安檢查過的那其實大多數的如果資安能力沒有非常特殊要求的其實就買共同契約上面就好按照採購法規定他共同契約他價格都訂好了他也不用招標他直接買就OK了 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11954.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11982.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
那那個部分如果有資安疑慮我們馬上就從那上面下架那如果上面沒有的按照我們現在的行政制度只要有兩個機關提出需求我們就會去找廠商這其實對本部是支持這個資安這個產業來講也很重要因為我們就可以發展我們台灣的這個資安產業所以這個其實並沒有說對於會造成公務機關或地方政府困擾那第三個特別說明的就是說所謂委外這個場所我們有特定限制在 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11982.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11999.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
公眾視聽的場域之下意思說要關起門來的這個或者是這個老師上課這並不是公眾視聽的情形那這個我們當然會跟地方政府溝通其實我們從113年開始就治安法令大概每定期都會許行委譬如我們在高雄已經辦過了大概三場 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12000.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12026.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
在台東也辦過台中也辦過那這個法通過之後我們還會持續的跟地方政府來溝通那我們其實我們大家也都是公務員我們並不想造成說中央或地方各機關的公務同仁這個沒辦法這個無所適從或是他工作上的負擔所以這個法令就我們現在行政院版其實是經過多方溝通也包括各中央目的市就大家都覺得是可行的我們才會這樣定以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12031.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12033.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
麥克風大家大家其他人能聽得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12037.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12065.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
主席我建議這樣啦因為我還是希望沒有爭議的話讓他去通過可是這一台從頭審到現在我認為11條有關這個規定的認知確實是差異很大所以我建議怎麼解釋現在有些也聽不進去那確確實實有必要有老百姓的民意的聲音所以我建議這個是真正先把它保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12065.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12082.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
因為不可能全部的法令我建議就是先保留在沒有爭議的讓他去過我建議這樣可能整個法令他會不會比較完善一點好不好暫時保留我聽起來這一條沒有什麼爭議剛剛這樣聽起來爭議沒有很大吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12089.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12105.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
除了這一個剛剛葛委員提到的有沒有再需要這一個比較細緻的然後還有這個院版修正有一個使用業務上需求的例外然後還有到底要放修法理由還是不要放修法理由不就是這樣子而已嗎這聽起來好像沒有那麼大的歧義吧應該是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12107.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12132.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好 文豐政委員好 謝謝主席那我還是剛剛我剛剛談的問題我想再去了解因為剛剛特別說跟地方政府都辦了一個說明會也不會造成地方政府的困擾這我可以理解啦因為採購法就已經規定這麼久了嘛就不能買他買都不能買他還用什麼他們基本上都有這種觀念但是你剛剛講是這條法定在一定營運委外委外營運的場館我們講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12133.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12162.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
火車站好了火車站的場域然後他委託微風廣場經營他是完全不管你這個區塊給你啊你從櫃子電視什麼的你要東西你自己去弄啊那什麼意思就是說我要找這些公司的時候這些民間企業或社團的時候那他怎麼知道哪一個品牌可不可以買那請問一下你有通知他嗎剛剛講說私下公告那你也公告給這些管理單位嗎另外一些有些國民運動中心好了也是空的場域啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12163.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12180.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
就給你運動器材你買那運動器材現在很多都帶電視的那是不是他到底要買什麼廠牌的什麼不能買不能說我整個買了50台你說抱歉這不能用所以我的意思就是說你們現在的規定不是不行但是你們對於已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12181.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12196.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
已經要約束到他下來送民間委外的一些單位的時候你能不能把這些公告很明確的讓這些單位也知道甚至在他來招標之前他就覺得要不要因為這都是成本喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12196.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12221.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
因為這個治安本來就對企業他就一個成本我需要high quality的我要美國製的我要台灣製的那本身就是一個成本那我的意思就是說在委外的場館裡面發生他必須全部負責他所有的設備的時候他要遵循什麼樣的法例對一個民間的廠商這裡面我並沒有看清楚很清楚可以依循的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12225.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12230.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
好這樣子先保留啦好12條163 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12247.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12271.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
現在進行到第12條12條是有關於資安長的資格以及相關他實質的一個能力長期以來我看我們各公務機關的資安長其實大半都是由機關的正副首長來兼任 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12272.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12283.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
但是你看這些政府首長兼任資安長他們其實都是缺乏專業的這種資安的專業知識導致資安的督導責任其實我認為是無法實質的落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12291.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12306.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我認為這好像變成有名無死的這種狀況啊這個外界都多所批評那但是啊我們數位部其實也要來了解目前這種資安長的掛名字啊其實啊這個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12309.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12335.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我們要去解決 要解決這種資安長掛名字的這種問題才能有效的去推動資安政策的落實但是目前這種兼任方式能否日益能否對應日益嚴峻的這種資安的威脅其實如果未來維持這種兼任的制度是如果要透過資安署 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12336.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12362.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
資安署要提交資安署如何透過強力的專業資源能夠去協助這些資安長能夠提升專業的能力不然這種資安長的掛名字有辦法去落實資安嗎以上好那個行政單位好謝謝他們沒什麼意見沒有意見就不要講太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12367.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12370.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
說明來我們補充對啦 對啦那如果這樣從早到晚就應該秉持這樣的一個會議原則啊我請他們簡單說明 而且我問的也那麼簡短也請他們簡短說明這樣都勾到整片天對啦 那崑禎委員我講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12388.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12411.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好 謝謝李委員的這個意見那我們會在說明欄這邊因為其實我們平常對這些資安長副首長都有做一些教育訓練的工作包括我們也舉辦一些像資安長的共事營等等的那他們經過這些的教育訓練其實可以強化他們在資安方面的專業的能力所以這個平時都有在配合相關的教育訓練的課程在推動 以上說明 謝謝好 觀眾可以OK |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12416.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12426.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
好 那12條就通過照那個 照行政院版通過 這樣OK齁好 13條你沒意見 都沒意見 沒想像沒意見 這樣13條 照行政院提案通過14條 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12444.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12449.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
14條大家有意見嗎?如果沒有意見,14條就照行政院提案通過15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12456.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12471.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
你對過條就剛剛14條啦因為一樣有後面有治安署是治安署其實確實有一點怪怪的啦因為包括沒有上級單位包括總統府啊然後很多那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12472.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12493.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
最高單位都要跟資安署最後來報備所以我在想雖然是倒回去去討論應該是第二條的一個定義的這個部分大家的疑慮是說這中間整個一個相關的法規剛剛也看到了其實除了資安署的業務跟業界跟我們產業署的業務都有你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12494.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12508.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
都有跟民間的產業怎麼樣去投入納入他們的一個經驗這又不是純資安署的那再來是相關的你們管全國包括中央單位地方單位你有時候真的叫署去協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12510.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12535.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那可能簽公文還是要給你啊那這種是不是我會覺得待會可以一併去討論啦這個會不會在整個部會的一個協調溝通的這個部分你全丟給一個二級的資安署會不會好那這個部分是不是一併保留啊因為有資安署的問題好來14條跟第2條的源頭一樣後面這類似這樣就先保留啦就這個溝通好就溝通好了好來15條 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12538.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12542.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們看內政部的相關資料全國368個鄉鎮公所當中其實有超過三分之一是沒有專任的資訊人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12555.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12564.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
在原鄉地區這種情形是更嚴重那我們這種資安資通安全維護計畫的這種專任的資訊人員不足這其實是一個問題請你們簡單說明一下請行政部門回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12572.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12600.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
是 我想謝謝李分責委員剛剛的這個關心那原鄉這部分的確是所以不過所以我們才會說盡量把一些相關公所的東西向上集中到縣政府那邊去那這樣由縣政府來做這些治安管理的工作這樣子可以減輕原鄉一些人力不足的地方因為事實上你說要在一個比較偏僻的原鄉要設置一位專職的專職的治安人員其實不太容易雖然我們給他這樣的一個要求可是他要達成不容易以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12602.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12625.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
好 這樣回答OK嗎好 那如果沒有意見我們16條就照行政院15條就照行政院提案通過好 那現在16條大家有沒有意見沒有意見就照行政院提案通過17條大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12631.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12650.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
第幾條16條16條有主管機關的問題所以16條跟第二條問題一樣那就先保留暫時保留OK好那再來17條大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12651.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12677.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
沒有意見就照行政院提案通過好18條18條有一個修正動議就是那個黃建豪等修正動議請那個宣讀修正動議是提案人委員黃建豪葛如君等第18條對照行政院提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12679.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12692.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
在第一項在第一項的部分中斷應變處理的後面徵定並得鼓勵所屬人員參與直通安全教育訓練莫具應與獎勵修正為公務機關應與以獎勵宣布完畢主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12717.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12738.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
18條有沒有意見我只是補充一下我想這個感恩主席那個18條的修正動議我想之前已經有跟數位部有溝通應該有共識那我這條數位部應該沒有意見應該沒有反對意見啦18條的修正動議就是鼓勵所屬人員參與自動安全教育訓練而已還有沈伯陽委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12742.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12758.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我覺得獎勵這個方向很好另外就是說我在這一個我的版本裡面有提到這個績效平和剛剛又有跟世華溝通過因為在第五條的時候其實也有把績效放進去那我覺得反正這個還是在辦法裡面訂定不代表馬上就要實行但我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12758.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12785.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
有一定程度的這個績效平和對於之後在這一個管考還有在做這一個指揮監督的時候我覺得可能會比較有效果啦所以我是建議能不能夠把這一個績效平和這四個字把它拉回來拉回來到最後一項那邊好 剛才那個先回應森委員的18條的部分大概這個修正版本我們也接受森委員說要加平和兩個字我們也接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12787.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12811.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我們來打一下齁就是績效平衡 優良好 加那個 加平衡績效平衡 績效平衡 對就是差距不是很大啦有一些就是被人說要到貨裡面去再下來這樣就偏程距了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12814.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12827.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好,18條改這樣子,大家OK嗎?好,OK齁好,那18條就照還有治安署 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12838.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12854.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對啦如果是數位部跟剛才就從第二條開始吧第二條開始就是他們在講的就是數位部跟資安署如果這樣子大家可以接受的話那剛才保留的就全部都可以通過啦那就這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12858.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12883.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那個市長市長不是啦市長我說實在啦大家餘力的當然知安時也是附屬在數位部嘛所以這個華本來主管居然是你們嘛所以你用一個三級機關二級機關去跟一級機關來談這個事情大家餘力的是這個那如果是這樣把數位部放進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12884.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12903.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那他還是下屬你的機關你們要怎麼樣去協調是數位部才跟一級機關你們是一級機關協調一級機關所以我建議啦私底下你們考慮一下在整個華的部分是不是把數位部放進去那這個問題就解決啊不是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12909.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12920.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我們休息五分鐘讓他們想一下如果可以的話就從第二條保留到後面就全部都解決好不好王燕先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12923.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12930.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們按照專利法寫法就是本法主管機關為數位發展部可以指定專責機關來辦理然後後面的所有資安署都改成主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12957.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12958.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
大家考慮一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12970.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12990.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
蘇發部剛才有大致上主管機關 後面的都誰主管機關啊我們再多加一句話就是主管機關可以指定專責單位來好啦 它這跟專責機關 跟這個民法的關係對啦 主管機關是蘇衛部啊對啦對啦 後面的就是主管這樣啦後面自然署都誰主管這樣在兩點半再來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12999.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
13014.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
被由那個諸葛部長指定專責機關辦理當初等一下一幕秀出來就好因為治安局這三個是保留的靠進去 歐洲歐克巴全都改成主管機關就從第一條到最後一條我第三條要保留一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
13026.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13034.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
你不可能今天一事就結束 一定有第二輪 讓他保留幾天時間因為大家你可以看得出來 兩黨也都是在幫你維持法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13042.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13060.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這問題大家講的不是沒有理由於主管機關明定又設計數位比例到最後執行機關你又把它放在那裡三級機關就是一級機關你那一定會那個起碼的數位比例是一級機關本來這是你們的下場那為什麼要解決這個我們就按照專利法 企業法 什麼的這樣後面都設計主管機關的話主管機關都是數位發展部 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13072.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13081.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
對啦 他是彭華存款機關資金經濟公安的數位發展部我們可以資金存款的機關來辦業務對啦 就代表那些都是你們數位部做的嘛因為他也是你們的二級啦那你為什麼要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13088.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13106.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
特別去民進這個當時說自己是這樣齁 因為其實我這樣子教育比較好不是啊 你在行文 跟部長在行文那兩者一般像內政部 欸內政部我跟你同等啊為什麼我要請你出來我們也可以戴戴上這個好 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13115.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13117.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
我們還要再瞭解一下我們才過 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13130.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13135.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我們再瞭解一下我們瞭解一下 因為細節我們現在市長都在這邊他要去問一下業務單位才知道這樣子我們先瞭解 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13157.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13161.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
沒有這世界我們有通報機還不了解這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13184.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13191.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
因為早上沒有通報然後到底是媒體的報導是怎麼樣也不清楚所以先不用去 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13214.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13214.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
再看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13239.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13244.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13268.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13268.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
嗯嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13276.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13297.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我們現在第二項就修成國家資通安全業務之執行由第二項郵出發展部指定專責機關辦那下面只要是資安許可條文我們就修成資安專責機關這樣好了不要還是主管機關就主管機關然後之後就不要下面就一律主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13299.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13302.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那就是一個自電程式我看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13326.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13326.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
謝謝觀看 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13359.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13359.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13359.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13360.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
因為它越來越快 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13382.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13390.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我跟你講齁我們驗版的 來 次長來 我跟你講我們驗版的 我們房地產有些事情我們驗版的就是 聽你們說我們是500萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13410.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13435.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們希望能夠成為一千萬人的祖先。祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,祖先,� |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13442.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13442.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
這裏有個大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13460.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13467.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
不是,我一直當委員,為什麼要聽你那個笑口會被打 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13483.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13486.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
其實我們學問也是要附裡面的代判內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13508.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13509.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
那個在溝通,因為他在擋船,大概還是要擋船 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13525.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13531.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
現在不是林國慈的問題,是他黨黨的問題我們在跟那個黨在溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13560.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13566.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
因為我們有去溝通啦,他就說啊,他們沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13595.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13612.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
副總,下午那個部會議我跟卓志志參加,院長有一個那個有關於美國家產品,那個低性殼的那個會議那個是專案小組會議,那個延期了但是那個下午是要跟院長報告這是跟林政委 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13613.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13616.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
當年政府在那個國安會的小組裡面三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13636.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13636.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13671.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13689.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
這個27條,因為正中心就是女人的身體裡面,前面的後面的就是後面這些啊,就是前面的原件,是中心、後面的,或是前面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13692.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13704.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
剩下剩餘的規則,你看它是湯的樣子所以現在製作版就有錢了我們將來做到一半了,我們就過去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13718.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13748.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13756.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13763.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
其實我看起來是C27國民黨好像沒有特別特別有 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13776.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13778.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
其實現在已經在執行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13796.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13800.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
大家不了解,因為特定救災救難難以使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13822.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13823.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
我來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13856.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13859.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
你家里可以照顾到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
14680.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
14702.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
好來現在開始開會剛才那個蘇發部有跟國民黨民眾黨團溝通過了那我們再繞回來第二條第二條如果處理好了後面就很多都可以OK第二條第幾頁第五頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
14707.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
14726.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
第二條第五頁然後改主管機關為數位發展部自通安全業務之執行由數位發展部指定資安專責機關辦理這樣第二條就改這樣OK嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
14733.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
14761.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好 沒意見 好那第二條就照行政院提案通過提案修正通過那第三條還是保留嗎第三條還是保留然後後面四五六七四到九四到九本來有過了嘛那四到九就交往來都有通過再來第十四到九不是都過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
14764.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
14788.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
第四到第九有治安署的通通過了嘛要一條一條這樣第七就是改作主管機關嘛好那第七條改作主管機關所以就照行政院提案修正通過再來第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
14789.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
14806.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
也改主管機關然後照行政院提案修正通過那第九條也改主管機關照行政院提案修正通過所以就剩下 再來前面都通過了 再來就剩下第十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
14808.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
14834.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
第10條保留那個行政機關部門都OK了就第10條保留那第11條也是保留就是剛才有提到那個還是保留那再來23本來就過了吧再來14條資安署那邊改成主管機關所以14條就照行政院提案修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
14835.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
14847.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那再來16條也是改成修正機關照行政院提案修正通過再來再回到1717也是一樣處理過了回到18那18大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
14864.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
14889.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
也是一樣資安署改成儲管機關那就照行政院提案修正通過過來1919有修正動議19好像說那個撤掉了 撤了吧19是有修正動議好像有撤了喔不予增訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
14895.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
14896.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
19 宣讀一下修正動議6提案人委員邱若驊等系針對委員邱若驊等提案第19條予以刪除一併宣讀第21條也是一併刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
14921.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14939.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
他修他自己的版本而已啦跟我們無關啦那我們還是保留他們自己的條文刪掉啦不是我們的啦那我們還是造型正案版本啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14949.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14955.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
張銘 第三張張銘就照行政院原來的張銘那張銘是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14959.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14979.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
維持現狀,所以張明那邊不予採納好所以19條,他要收他自己的所以19條就是照行政院版本通過好,那第三張張明就照行政院提案通過再來20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14983.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14991.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
再來20條20條大家有沒有什麼意見20條沒有意見就照行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14994.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
15020.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
這樣第20條有關鍵基礎設施特定的這個部分不是第3條這個部分還沒有確認那這個部分萬一名字改了或怎麼樣有沒有關係呢關鍵基礎設施 因為第3條現在還不確定啊因為剛剛有些討論如果你們按照 第3條是後面的沒有確定範圍沒有確定嘛對 如果按照你們原來的版本剛剛你們同意的就沒有特定兩個字 特定拿掉還是先拿掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
15031.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
15045.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們就第3條的第一款到第9款我們就維持原來行政院的版本 現行規定就我們沒有變動所以原來有一些像特定關鍵機構設施就特定就拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
15052.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
15075.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
對對對就是20條裡面的一些對我說明一下就是20條這個地方我們有原文是中央目的世界主管機關應與徵詢相關公務機關民間團體專家學者意見後那個指定兩個字就拿指定特定特定那個拿掉指定關鍵基礎設施提供者送由主管機關報請請見核定並書面通知送送核定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
15078.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
15091.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
就是20條有特定關鍵基礎設施的特定拿掉啦這樣沒錯對啦,就是有特定的就拿掉啦那個沒問題,說話不會沒問題啦對啦,就是資安署 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
15101.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
15120.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
一起講 資安署改成主管機關然後特定關鍵基礎設施 特定拿掉就是關鍵基礎設施那前面的有很多 前面後面有很多就類似這樣子的問題現在全部都解決了 都一樣吧好 現在第20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
15126.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
15146.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
第20條那個特定是20條嘛所以就照行政20條看前面的螢幕就是特定的都拿掉吧這樣OK啦好那就照行政院提案修正通過20條那再來21條 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
15157.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
15160.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
郭文貴議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
15163.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
15190.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
因為你們21條21條你有一個修正修正條文叫設置自通安全專職人員吧啊這個設置自通安全專職人員的條件你放在19條就說你們要得對所屬自通安全專職人員之適任性進行查核啊那個你們可以用留個紀錄好吧你那個怎麼查核你們要怎麼去找到所謂的自通安全專職人員那他的查核要經過什麼樣的流程誰來查核嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
15194.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
15208.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
謝謝委員的那個提問我想就是這個查核部分其實我們是FARO這個公務人員服務法第四條裡面的這種特殊查核在做查核那一般的查核我們都會送給調查局做相關的這個特殊的這個查核這個是既有這個程序以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
15211.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
15218.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所以就是20條剛才有提過現在在螢幕上面嘛就是特定就拿掉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
15237.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
15263.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
好這是20條所以20條就照行政院提案修正通過好那21條剛剛有署長有報告過了嘛那21條大家如果沒有意見的話就特定拿掉特定拿掉所以特定拿掉所以OK好那就照行政院提案修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
15265.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
15292.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那再來21條那再來22條資安署的就剛才講的就是全部都把它改成主管機關就資安署改成主管機關就是第二條大家的問題有資安署的現在就改成通通把它改成資安機關啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
15293.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
15316.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那有特定的就把特定拿掉總統留下關鍵基礎設施其他的都跟原來的一樣那就是剛才從早上到現在大家有不一樣的意見的這些就已經統整了那就照這樣子都通過啦好那21條有修正動議那麻煩唸一下唸過了 宣讀過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
15328.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
15339.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
邱若驊修正動議是根據他修正他自己的提案跟我們行政院版本我們這次討論的文沒有關係他是修正自己的提案所以這個就通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
15341.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
15359.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
好 那再來21條就這樣子大家沒有意見我們就對 就是照行政院提案修正後通過好 那22條大家沒意見沒有的話也是一樣照行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
15361.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
15375.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那再來2323條就還是沒意見照行政院提案通過再來24條沒意見有修正動議24條有修正動議麻煩宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
15404.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
15427.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
24條宣讀一下修正動議五提案人委員黃建豪葛如君等第24條對照行政院提案在最後一項安全事件時的後面得提供相關協助修正為應提供必要之協助宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
15428.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
15442.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
好那現在OK好那24條就照委員黃建豪等人所提修正東西通過好25條大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
15444.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
15457.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
二十五條二十五條不是說說好了嗎二十五條沒有二十五條保留啦來來二十五條這個主席抱歉二十五條我想這樣啦這個一般我們這樣看下來覺得很像2017年版本18條的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
15466.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
15481.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
再写一遍而已只是当然条件要更多而已但他的精神好像就是2017年那个18条的版本哦不然说其实我讲真的你那个123前面就是25条123这部分OK但是后面有一个受调查者 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
15482.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
15505.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那個受調查者是誰就是所有相關人都算受調查者嗎他不得拒絕所以等於授權了你們這個法律過後就授權你們去任何地方去進行相關調查所以我覺得這個是這個授權的比例有點有點範圍比較廣一點所以這部分我覺得是不是先保留讓大家再思考一下那個說不 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
15507.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
15530.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
如果把它特定下來好不好比如我們其實在第一項都是當事人跟關係人我們就把受調的人改成當事人或關係人這樣就不會太多就不會誤解所以第一項就是當事人或關係人我們只會查當事人跟關係人而已這樣就可以不用保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
15531.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
15547.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
有範圍嗎 有線索範圍就把受調查者改為這個當事人或關係人當事人關係人前面都有定義的他多少有溝通軌啊25條 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
15563.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
15564.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
馬騙 馬騙來 能夠看那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
15576.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
15603.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
因為我想這個涉及到調查調查對象被調查對象這個跟就我覺得開空另外收集各界意見再來把它的這個範圍明確比較好一點好不好我覺得這樣子收集大家意見比較完整不要說今天我們三言兩語說好那我們把它改成什麼這個當事人跟關係人就好了當事人跟關係人就是說它有限縮範圍嘛我知道這個定義還是要把它明確一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
15613.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
15613.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
15625.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
15626.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
現在前面的開宗明義是針對調查特定的非公務機關他基本上看起來是一個法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
15645.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
15673.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那你大概後面寫的是當事人跟關係人啦有可能是法人有可能是自然人這樣我們看起來是這樣就是這個機關你們要不要說一下好吧就是說是這個因為你要調查一個機關肯定是要機關代表人喔真的喔你不能是隨便去找一個機關誰出來去講那到底這個是法人那當然關係人是個人是怎樣你們隨便找嗎還是那個狀況到底是怎麼樣可不可以說明一下謝謝說法不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
15675.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
15704.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我們舉具體的例子特定非公務機關那指的是我們現在以關鍵基礎設施來看比如說它是這個能源的部分譬如說台電公司所謂的當事人就是台電公司那關係我們在第二項有明定說關係人以辦理特定公務機關委託辦理資訊系統建置維護或資訊服務的受託者而且要與重大的資訊安全觀有相關的譬如說台電那個系統他是請這個某某資安公司資訊公司做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
15705.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
15718.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
那這個系統是他來尾運的那這個調查對象只限於他而且是要跟這個資安事件要有關的才能夠調查所以這個其實在第二項裡面關係也不是隨便任何人都可以找就是當事人一定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
15720.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
15737.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
一定是那個資安事件的當事人是台電就台電是中華電信就中華電信對 本身法人那法人他當然可以派他的資訊人員來那關係人一定要跟這個而且他是受到台電或中華電信委託然後辦理這個資訊系統發生資安事件那我們當然要把他找來問這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
15740.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
15750.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
其實我們委員會的角度當然就是說 大家如果看到有道理可以過就一年後過 總之如果沒有辦法可以保留 協商的大家要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
15766.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
15780.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
好吧,這樣就先保留他們的建築,他們的建築我們先保留啦好,好,剛才是25好,再來26,大家有沒有什麼意見好,沒有意見就照行政院提案通過27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
15787.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
15810.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
我們本黨本來還是想說把它針對這些硬質定級特殊人員使用時間一到就是要理由消滅以後要這個剛剛署長已經有解釋了在整個你們的辦法裡面已經有明定所以我這個問題就是把它列在會議紀錄裡面會議紀錄裡面也就相當有執行就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
15816.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
15840.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
好 那27條行政院沒問題那就照這樣 那就列其他的那個民國村委員講的就列到後面嘛好 那這一條就照行政院提案通過那之前在25條那邊有一個羅美玲等委員的提案那一條我們行政院沒有對案那個就不予採納OK過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
15850.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
15861.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
好,這是最後嘛好,那28大家有沒有什麼意見沒有意見就照行政院提案通過再來29案 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
15866.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
15888.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
本黨團在華澤部分我們是本來是我們他這裡是500萬最高500萬我們是漸行改為1000萬那反正這個華澤啊高一點他因為底線我們沒有更改但是上線我們把他拉到1000萬那看我們主管機關的看法OK好那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
15895.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
15909.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
這是照行政院提案修正這個剛剛那個林昭偉提到的就這樣修正那就照行政案提案修正通過好 三十條 大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
15918.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
15940.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這個也是我們黨版裡面本來是到一百萬然後我們把它拉到上限是五百萬上限五百萬那個十萬不敢一百改成五百我建議這樣主席就是在華澤部分就建議用民眾黨版本提高這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
15941.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
15960.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
你有民眾黨版本嗎我們民眾黨版本是這樣民眾黨版本OK啦你們的 那民眾黨版本你們有看仔細了齁看一下啦對 你要看一下你要看一下 你不要都沒有看對不對 你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
15969.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
15995.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
沒關係就看一下因為你照行政的版本修正就那個字照民眾的版本要看整個版本沒關係你看一下其他都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
15999.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
16000.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
過來第四張第四張 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
16022.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
16046.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
不要不要耽擱這個時間啦我跟你講齁這個我拜託就是主席在這個部分齁你看我們的版本是這樣那可以用用這個版本那個留下這個紀錄是民眾黨的這個對好啦參考民進黨民眾黨可以可以可以好不好那就留下這樣比較單純齁那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
16048.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
16066.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
參考民眾黨版本意見造行政院提案修正通過剛才有一個漏掉的再補充一下第四章的章免就是罰則這個大家沒有意見這個造行政院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
16071.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
16087.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
31條 大家有沒有意見沒有的話 照行政院提案通過32條 大家有沒有意見第5張張明 第5張張明負責沒有意見 那就照行政院提案通過再來32條 大家有沒有意見32條是 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
16106.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
16119.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
已經叫所以30多條 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
16124.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
16147.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
不是 就是說你已經都說好了所以 你現在還沒說好好啦 沒關係啦 沒關係啦沒關係 還沒說好就是還沒說好所以現在是三十二條二十五條跟三十二條啦二十五條跟三十二條 你的意見是要保留啦是齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
16151.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
16177.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好了,這樣這兩條就保留,好OK,再來33條,大家有意見嗎?沒有意見,照行政院提案通過34條大家有意見嗎?沒有,照行政院提案通過好這樣子總共保留的有哪幾條?保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
16181.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
16208.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
三十十一二十五三十二這五條保留其他通通通過了OK還有三十五條剛剛有一個鄰近縣提案張明這個不採納OK三十五條現在還有三十五條大家沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
16208.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
16236.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
那個那個我說那個日期把它定的比較明確化你有什麼困難嗎地方也要溝通的這個就就按照讓我們來指定好了啦我們會盡快盡快實施因為這個法是我們要用的所以我們一定會趕快讓他實施這樣但是要讓我們有一點溝通調整的時間否則各目的世界之外地方政府主席我建議在這裡啊台灣民眾黨建議是要定這個那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
16236.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
16243.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這個執行的話時間的話就授權給他們還是要留下紀錄民眾黨建立留下紀錄我們就照行政院提案通過再來附帶決議請宣讀附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
16268.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
16278.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
徐志傑 羅美蓮等提案附帶決議提案人委員徐志傑等為確保我國之通安全 完善國內之通安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
16280.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
16300.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
應處機制 現行法於資通安全管理法下定有資通安全管理法施行細則資通安全責任等級分級辦法資通安全事件通報及應變辦法特定非公務機關資通安全維護計畫實施情形集合辦法資通安全情資分享辦法及公務機關所 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
16303.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
16321.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
立人員知通安全事項獎勵辦法等六執法為本次修法涉及多數重大變動其中涉及執法者除上述執法因隨同修正外上包括但不限於草案第五條第四項國家知通安全匯報組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
16323.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
16342.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
第十一條第三項自通安全產品審查程序第十六條第三項自通安全維護計畫必要事項第十九條第六項自通安全專職人員查核等內容尚待擬定執法加以規範中上所述為確保國家自通安全及完善自通 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
16342.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
16360.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
資安世界應處機制 原要求數位發展部資通安全屬序六個月內完成相關執法之擬定並於本法公佈施行時一併施行 避免出現法律真空影響國家資通安全 訓讀完畢好 這個說法部有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
16368.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
16387.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
就是原則上我們聽眾委員的意見那是不是把那個文字更明確的話就是說最後倒數第三行就是說社會發展部中央前屬虛擬總統公布後六個月內OK這樣比較明確六個月從哪裡算起OK |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
16389.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
16416.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
來主席那個你們考慮還是要我們這個一連貫的問題啊就是數位發展不是支通安全署這個要把它拿掉才會一連貫附帶結議裡面不要這裡又延伸一個什麼治安署這樣就整個我們的法令不連貫了所以我建議這個是否主管機關或者數位部這樣的話才跟我們的法令是連貫性的那就改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
16418.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
16441.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
主管機關 數位發展部就好與總統公佈後六個月內完成OK那個黃建豪謝謝主席主席我只要這個評論一下這個附帶決議而已就是其實你看這個附帶決議表示說希望大家在六個月內完成相關執法擬定並於本法公佈事項一併施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
16442.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
16464.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
好就表示說其實這段我們我們有些法條主張保留並不是沒有原因我們希望說真的定的更明確一點好大家再通過吧啊你如果我現在過了什麼執法都沒有那我就是空白授權啊這是我覺得今天會議的重點啊好不好謝謝好OK那大家有沒有如果沒有意見的話這個就修正通過好 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
16469.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
16471.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
如有委員對附帶決議補簽列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
16503.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
16528.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
好協商完成做以下宣告今日協商結論免予宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄社會發展部建議條文及相關機關所送書面資料列入公報記錄針對今日的會議做以下決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
16530.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16539.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
並按審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時有許召集委員致詰做補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16548.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16574.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
請司法部就審查結果通過條文補充立法說明送交通委員會以便列於審查報告一併呈送立法院院會最後 條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理本次會議結束 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16580.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16601.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
保留剛才不是都有講了嗎 再講一次來保留條文是第三條嘛第十條 十一條 二十五條 三十二條就這五條這樣OK齁 有人這樣清楚啦好 那本次會議結束 散會 |