| IVOD_ID |
166988 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166988 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-08T10:54:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-08T11:01:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f54315573af57e7b26e5067a41bab2fb0fea1d89202e029a9f209be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
羅智強 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:54:04 - 11:01:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】） |
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請羅委員有請國防部副部長請副部長 |
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26.604 |
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副長今天我們審的陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案本席就如實來引用來念一段我們司法院的修法意見他說關於行政院函勤審議陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案效忠之表示其含義甚廣認同嗎 |
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效忠的表示含義會不會甚廣是是嘛 對不對謝謝我們副部長很誠實含義甚廣也就是說它其實處在一個相當不確定的概念那為避免過度擴張可乏性範圍是依舊本條第五項所載點點點對敵人為效忠之表示者 |
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84.502 |
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109.92 |
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增加士性犯要件例如補充框號...對敵人為效忠之表示足以生軍事上之不利益者他在本案嚴厲階段其實也曾經採用過這個文字那如果不足以生軍事上之不利益我先到這邊 來 |
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您覺得司法院應該要加上一個適性犯要件就是要增加足以生軍事上之不利益者這點副部長的看法是什麼 |
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125.066 |
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152.913 |
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因為按照憲法跟國安法的規定現役軍人對國家效忠的義務有明文的規定那考量整個現役軍人如果對這個敵人效忠的表示沒有加以刑責的這個嚴禁的話會使部隊的機率跟軍事安全會有嚴重的一個損害我告訴你我跟副部長講你的考慮司法院這次真的很周延他也把他放進去講啦他說啊 |
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182.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
如果不足以伸军事上之不利益他不是说不足以伸军事上之不利益就没有处罚的可能性他可以用陆海空军惩罚法锁定情务上或情务外违纪行为加以规范即可此等层级化处理依较符合比例原则以及刑法之最后手段性 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
183.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
211.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
來 請教部長你覺得呢因為懲罰法跟刑法是兩個不一樣的一個形態我剛剛有跟委員做說明就是現役軍人他的職務有特殊性那針對敵人對於效忠的言論以刑法來限制這一個判斷的標準會是個人個案的情節來做認定所以以刑法來限制的話他基本上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
212.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
226.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
合理的我先跟副部長說基本上我覺得司法院的思考算是相當周延第一個剛剛你也承認效忠之表示含義甚廣剛剛你也認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
226.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
248.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他正是因為效忠之表示含義甚廣所以後面要加一個所謂的適性犯的要件免得這個含義過廣到時候可能會流淡傷及無辜所以才會加上要足以生軍事上之不利益其實這個邏輯很簡單如果沒有生軍事上之不利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
278.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
請問要上綱到刑法的意義何在但如果你說軍人就是不一樣我接受軍人不一樣你要有一個很高的準則來去看待軍人那也在司法院應屆當中說你們還是做得到啊也就在陸海空軍懲罰法所定的勤務外勤務上及勤務外違紀行為加以規範就可以所以我還是一句話啦這個事情我覺得大家出來討論很好但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
305.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
不需要今天在司法院的這樣的一個這麼清楚的一個所謂規範層級架構的司法邏輯上我覺得部裡面真的可以好好在審酌啦就說你今天到底要用什麼樣的法律要規範到什麼樣的強度我最後做一個簡單的一個東西剛剛我看到司長在回應光小英委員他舉了幾個行為太陽啊 暗戰啊或是唱個什麼歌啊 或是做個什麼事情啊或者說今天去誇 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
306.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
325.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
中国大陆某些东西建设的好像很不错诸如此类点点点那你刚刚意思是说这样子不足以构成你的修法后的这个所谓的陆海空军刑法的这所违法的一个状态对不对你刚意思是说不会违反吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
325.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
345.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
是 如果這很明確的是這樣的話是不會進入到我們這次修法的條文當中可是問題就來了那我剛跟委員抱一下因為委員剛才所講司法院我先問問題 我時間到了我先問問題你剛講的回答我先停在一個地方我就問司長一個問題嘛你是檢察官嗎你是法官嗎你不是嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
346.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
371.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以換言之你並不能在個案上當中你的保證是沒有任何的所謂的實質的意義的啦因為你只是一個法律解釋的一個面向而已這是為什麼今天司法院他今天要跟大家講說你這效忠的表示含義過廣我說真的今天我也可以認為說按個讚就是效忠啊為什麼不能這樣認定呢其實效忠還是有定義啦不是我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
374.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
欸 不對喔我跟你講 效忠效忠的定義是看誰定義啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
381.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
402.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我跟委員報告 其實我們主要是效忠敵人嘛還是回頭問你一句話嘛我不是說 只要效忠就好啊不是 你效忠的定義過廣所以才用所謂的適性犯要件加以所謂局限它的效果嘛是 跟委員報告加適性犯這個選擇問題 跟我委員報告一下就是說 這個我們國防部不是說不能討論謝謝啊 可以討論啊對 可以討論 那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
404.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
424.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那因為我們待會兒完之後會有進入竹條的時候我們可以再好好的討論一下看我原來指導這樣子好很好啦我覺得這樣態度就很好啦基本上不要說是鐵板一塊說真的我剛剛跟我剛剛跟市長跟我們的副部長講我上面所說的所有一切還不是我的主張喔誰的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
426.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
副長誰主張 司長誰主張司法院的建議對嘛 所以因此我回頭講這還是其中一條它裡面關於所謂的陰謀犯部分我覺得它也寫得很好但因為時間有限所以我也不佔用大家時間希望這件事我剛也認同我們汪小林委員講的就是主席如果可以的話能不能就多開幾場公聽會那聽聽大家意見民進黨最喜歡開公聽會就讓大家開公聽會討論以上 謝謝 |