| IVOD_ID |
166985 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166985 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-4-36,35-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-08T10:39:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-08T10:53:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/125fd21c0e10f5434024439f6a547560067a41bab2fb0feae25119d80932fbafaa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:39:07 - 10:53:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員林宜瑾等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王定宇等16人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員張雅琳等18人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「陸海空軍刑法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。
【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】） |
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好 謝謝主席這邊有請副部長副部長請法律師的司長請司長司法院的那個副廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.151 |
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42.698 |
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首先這個要請教副部長就是因為我想這兩天大家看到F16又出事了全國的人民都非常傷心難過而且也很不捨到現在為止還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.776 |
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發現那位失事的飛行員那麼事實上就是這些年來國防部明明就是花了大把的錢去買新型的F16 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
74.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
然後也花了錢去要去加裝自動防撞的系統甚至也說要更新MMC迷航導向的電腦系統等等可是到目前為止到底這些裝備有沒有已經送到我國了呢我們F16當時是訂了多少架的飛機 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
82.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
95.086 |
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新型的F16報告委員先跟委員回覆您現在問的這是140架那這是在奉展我們這個案子裡面來說多少架 麻煩大聲一點140架新型的F16 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
99.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
117.545 |
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新型的F-16是66架新型的F-16是66架然後你剛剛說140架是我們現在討論的NMC的失效也好跟AutoTigas這個系統的加裝也好那是在舊購的飛機上也就是目前我們已經在執行戰備的飛機上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
119.218 |
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135.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以都已經換裝完畢了嗎還是說這個東西都沒有還沒有那為什麼一直都沒有換裝完畢這個部分我們也持續的在努力所謂的在努力是什麼是東西都還沒有到位都還沒有送到相關的系統設備都還沒有到台灣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
136.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
164.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
范委員其實這兩個案子是有相關聯的因為我們先前所買的這個F16 BLOCK兩棟的部分它因為後續的需求它要做能力的性能的提升武器的 夾艙的 新的採購包含我們現在所討論的AUTOGIGS這個系統的部分因為它是新增加能力你們當時有沒有訂定履約的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
166.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
175.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
報告委員都有都有所以現在全部都已經延宕了嘛對不對目前這個案子是我們都已經延遲了嘛也就是在履約的時間之內這些東西都沒有到貨嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
180.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
201.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
該安裝的也沒有安裝完備對吧剛剛有跟前面的委員有說明的那目前它主要如果是你現在問的是AutoKicks的部分的話它主要有三個部分第一個部分限速要更新第二個部分它的非超軟體要提升還有它的非超的電腦要完成總之就是都沒有完成嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
202.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
220.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
目前其實都有進度都有進度但是沒有完成我現在講的是就是在我們契約訂定的旅行的期間之內他沒有完成簡單來說他就是一個沒有旅行這契約沒有旅行抱怨他執行的年度是從109年到117年 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
222.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
246.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我們目前已經要求美方提前在116年的第四季希望它能夠把它完整交給我們可是當時應該是分批安裝分批交貨吧現在是一部都沒有對不對我們訂了66架的F16現在有多少架已經到台灣了報告委員這是兩個問題好沒關係就是剛剛前面講的那個系統的部分到現在為止都沒有一部有更新 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
247.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
265.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
系統它要先佈線之後然後做非超軟體的提升再做非超電腦的構改所以從107年到現在115年是 那因為對 都沒有任何的完成沒有任何的這個系統完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
266.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
287.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們這個構型的飛機它是比較舊的是八個兩棟那我本身是飛F16的那我們的飛超系統是所謂的類比式的飛超那美方它的飛機是數位式的飛超那美方目前國民兵他們也要做提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
287.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
316.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 我想要講的是就是說你基本上這個整個的軍購契約他就是沒有完成嘛你當時沒有符合那個契約的旅行條件而且也給付不完全在像這樣的情況之下美方看起來是明顯的他有拖延整個的給付的進度這有沒有任何的損害賠償的罰款報告委員這部分我們是採軍購方式來執行是由美方來代替我們執行所謂的專案管理的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
318.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
332.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以你委託他 他竟然是受委託人那麼對於受委託人他如果沒有依照委託人的指示去執行相關的契約條件的時候你們都沒有任何的處罰機制嗎沒有任何的罰款機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
335.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
350.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們都透過現行的三層架構然後跟美方持續的請他們來協助我們做改善你們只是持續但是你沒有任何的處罰其實沒有任何的罰款其實難怪美方都不甩嘛這就是現在很嚴重的問題我不客氣的講這些年來的幾架的軍機出事國防部是難辭其咎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
357.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
382.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就是因為你們怠惰失職不積極的去執行履約的條件也不積極的去監督去要求你們所謂的美方作為一個受委託人所以才會造成這些嚴重的意外我們每個人都不希望看到我們的國軍弟兄有任何的差錯有發生這樣子不幸的這種非安的這個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
383.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
409.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們有一句話說我不殺柏仁 柏仁因我而死現在國防部的情況就變成說你們不是要去害這非官可是因為你們的怠惰不作為失職而造成我們這些非官傷亡報告委員 這個部分我沒辦法接受您的說法我認為說你們真的是要積極的檢討啦你們的作為是能夠讓國軍弟兄安心嗎報告委員 我們自己你們沒有辦法好好的去照顧國軍弟兄因為現在還要來修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
410.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
425.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後意圖給這些國軍弟兄們扣帽子去箝制他們的思想 去箝制他們的一些行為他們可能根本沒有意圖可是因為你們現在的這個提案對敵人效忠表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
427.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
446.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這已經構成了進行法的犯罪這是兩件事情 這是兩個不一樣的事情是兩件事情 但它有關係我的意思是說你們沒有好好照顧國軍弟兄你們反而另外又在現行的陸海空軍刑法本來就有降敵罪就投敵罪你們現在增加的這個第五項就連司法院的書面報告都說你們這個是意圖什麼意圖去擴大那可罰性的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
459.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
478.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個規定基本上是很嚴重的這未來會有多少的 我們的國軍地修可能因此被扣帽子所以我就今天問嘛 如果說我跟委員做兩點的說明 第一個部分是有關這個Blog兩項 部長 請副部長先聽我說完我接下來要問你 什麼叫做對敵人效忠表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
480.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
494.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
今天如果有一個國軍弟兄在他的床頭前或是他的手機桌面貼了一個解放軍的美女照片這像敵人笑中表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
495.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
511.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我兩件事情跟委員說明第一個有關這個鳳展專案這個構改的部分你不用想前面的專案我現在希望你就我的問題回答因為他這個延宣前面的部分現在跟美國民兵同步在構改所以他的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
511.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
538.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
蘇部長我希望你對於我剛剛問的問題如果一個國軍弟兄他的手機桌面是個解放軍的美女或者是他看到大陸現在的閱兵出事的他的軍事武器非常精良他在影片上面按個讚這個算不算是對敵人效忠表示他要有具體的行為去顯示而且依據個案的不同來做一個相關的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
539.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
545.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好那副部長你剛剛講的重點要具體的行為顯示他的這樣的行為可能會對於軍事上造成不利益對不對因為要對根據他的翻譯以及他的具體行為依據個案來檢討所以你們在這個條文裡面你們有加上他有沒有這個意圖嗎你有顯示他是意圖嗎以你們現在的規定這叫什麼這叫抽象危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
565.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
570.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他只要是他沒有不見得要有意圖他就有這個行為的表示就可能會受到處罰這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
574.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
597.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
來請法務司司長回答跟委員說明一下報委員其實我們跟司法院大概最主要的看法有點不同就是是不是要足以生軍事上是不利益但是因為其實我們考量是其實現役軍人他本來就是要效忠國家那你用這言語說其他方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
598.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
605.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是如果是說你要效忠敵人的話這種言論對我們居然來講我們是不可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
609.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
629.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
給大陸的這個看到他們的閱兵的影片按個讚或是分享轉傳這個構不構成對敵人的消毒保釋如果委員現在所設定的想定就是說他只有按讚或是把解放軍的照片當作他手機的封面我可以很明確跟委員講如果說調查結果就是這樣他不會構成這一條罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
630.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
646.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但是我們國軍你本來言行就是要忠於國家你這些可能會影響到國人對我們國軍的看法可能會影響軍域我們或許會用陸海空軍懲罰法對他的行為來作以適當的懲處而不會用陸海空軍刑法對他苛責這樣子是可能違反軍紀軍律那麼有嚴重到必須要上綱道用刑法來治罪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
655.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
681.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
如果是說他已經很明確的向敵人表示效忠這樣子就不行所以我就說嘛什麼叫做明確具體向敵人效忠你們不是陸海空軍刑法用言語用言語用言語舉動文字讀畫這個難道不夠不夠誠嗎所以呃師長啊你們我們都學法律的大家都知道你們現在規定下去的這個條文啊他的影響範圍有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
682.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
692.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
甚至可能撕到你以後你唱個大陸的一個流行歌曲你可能都會被扣上對敵人效忠的表示 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
693.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
717.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
什麼叫做舉動你們這裡面的規定以言語 舉動 任何的科技方式來做對敵人效用你光是怎麼去定義那個敵人你現在告訴我 你現在敵人我們哪一個法律裡面有定義敵人跟委員說明一下我們入海空軍刑法第十條與我國交戰或對峙之國家或團體就是我們的敵人那按照司法實務現在的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
720.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
749.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
中共就是跟我們武力對峙的一個團體他們就是我們的敵人好 這屬於對峙對不對對 武力對峙那現在就是說你匡列了這個敵人的範圍之後接下來就是說他有沒有意圖嘛這意圖很重要啊否則就像我剛剛講的他可能沒有意圖 沒有故意可是就被這個檢察官或是未來被這個就是可能就會因此被扣上這個罪名 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
750.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
778.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個基本上是對於我們的國軍弟兄來講他隨時都會處於一個很不安穩因為你不知道法律未來我們的法院會怎麼樣去看待這個事情就像我說的你們已經有陸海空軍懲罰法了有一些違規違紀的行為可以透過懲罰法去處理就可以了有必要上綱到刑法嗎刑法就是強調什麼要法律明確性明確原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
781.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
796.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
是 跟委員報告一下我們這個條文的設計本來就是為敵人為效忠表示他前面有言語舉動文字圖畫或什麼什麼等方式要用這些方式表出來他才會構成如果你只有在心中自己去想說你想要做什麼事情真的不會構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
798.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
813.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
從你們現在的法條設計裡面看不出來你們不處罰那種心中或者說我自己的一些行為就像我剛剛講的掛照片啦 唱流行歌曲啦我按讚分享啦 等等的這些看起來以後都會被你們處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
814.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
837.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
而且還抓去關牢 抓去坐牢所以我認為 因為現在莊委這邊我強烈的建議 這個條文它影響很大本期希望能夠開公聽會能夠好好把這個案子講清楚大家來看看 如果說有認為要訂定的必要那麼我們要提出更嚴謹的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
839.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
865.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
更嚴謹的修法因為畢竟我們現在已經在入海空軍刑罰裡面有降敵罪有投敵罪這是規定在這個整個章節裡面違反效忠國家的章節所以我們如果說要進一步要去對於這種具體的像敵人效忠的表示而且他要確實是要產生對於國家對於軍隊有不利益的有具體傷害的我們才處罰那這樣我覺得才完整啊所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
868.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
870.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
本席希望召委能夠來開這個公聽會以上 謝謝 |