| IVOD_ID |
16697 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16697 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-22 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-22T08:30:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-22T11:51:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:20:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ecd64100527991d8c14968be1351dde78a12e9ca99aa835c02ab0ce5415d311f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第4次公聽會（事由：召開「融資公司法」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:50 - 11:51:00 |
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640.196 |
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by bwd6 |
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by bwd6 |
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1402.194 |
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哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1694.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1694.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1862.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1862.257 |
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哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1974.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1974.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2121.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2131.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們就今天共聽會正式的開始開始之前我要先講幾句話我們今天是召開一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2132.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2140.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
融資公司法的組團會按照財政 按照我們立法院的相關的規定一定要有法案有待審的法案才能夠在這個地方開公聽會那因為有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2150.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2177.916 |
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幾位委員大家都知道黃珊珊、王思堅等委員他們有提融資公司法所以我們今天就按照相關規定我們來召開這次公聽會那麼第二個我之所以與你排這樣的一個案子我想因為大家都看到了這個融資公司啊已經大到有些融資公司大到比銀行還大了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2178.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2180.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那是又無限的擴張 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2184.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2210.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個大家都知道很多故事嘛三大猴子就是最最明顯的一個一個大家很不願意提到的一個事情發生了就是一部舊的一個二手車兩萬塊他居然可以輾轉的借到三四萬然後沒有辦法去還那這些的問題點點滴滴啊為什麼這個起草要設這個融資公司法的這些委員們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2211.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2227.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
其實也不一定他們兩位還有其他很多委員也有這樣的意思是不是應該讓他列管那真的列管目前來講是沒有人管目前來講沒有人管因為沒有人管就是經濟部的商業組 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2228.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2257.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
以前是商業司他們就跟他們登記就可以做這樣的一個借貸的義務了那有關於利率怎麼定除了符合民法的16%最高上限之外其他幾乎都沒有相關的規定了所以想要立要立融資公司法的這些先進們大家的想法就是我們希望能夠有更好的規範那麼另外一方面我知道金管會到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2257.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2278.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
態度非常暴溜比較直接了他的話金管會還是反對的等一下聽他講反對的理由反對的理由我想他們就講說我有金保法可以來處理這些的問題但是我們要主張要設專法的就完全沒有辦法認同這樣的概念所以今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2278.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2300.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們就有機會兩招我們一起來談那麼看看各位能不能談出一個結果出來我個人樂見我們今天有良性的互動如果有更多的共識那麼我也樂於願意我們一起來如果經管會也能夠提出版本的話我也樂於推動這個法案好 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2302.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2311.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們現在首先歡迎麗玲的學職專家在場委員政府機關代表參加這一次的攏制公司發的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2314.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2341.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我剛才這次整個內容都跟各位講了我們介紹在場的委員與會的學子專家跟政府機關代表委員還沒有人到 等一下會有委員到還有幾個委員都會表達會出席那麼我們原則上我們就介紹按照道德先後順序首先是台北律師公衛消費者債務清理 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2341.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2365.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
委員會的林永宋律師林律師大家都很熟悉他主推的他這個有點讓我想到以前的蔡同榮蔡公投一樣林永宋林榮之類的專門在推這個案子第二個是全國律師聯合會消費者債務經理委員會的林之鈺律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2367.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2394.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第三位是台北律師公會消費者債務清理委員會的趙新偉律師第四位是民傳大學金融科技應用系主任林某祥主任第五位成心法律事務所的吳律師第六位政大財政系的教授黃志聰教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2396.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2421.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第七位 台大法律學院的陳兆鴻教授第八位 協和國際法律事務所的谷湘宇律師第九位 燈光大學財務金融系的聶建榮教授第十位 台大國安所的葉國俊教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2428.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2442.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有介紹過的第九位是淡江大學財務金融系的聶建榮教授也是我好朋友的好 我們政府的官員的代表金管外的陳彥良副主委銀行局的童政章局長經濟部3S化學署的陳密順副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2453.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2471.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
法務部法制司的邱立芬專門委員我們現在就開始發言按照原例我還是希望我們蔡委會這裡等下完畢之後所有的發言的電子檔能夠一分給我們所有蔡委會的委員我們現在就規定我們宣布每位委員發言八分鐘結束前一分鐘按您提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2483.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2503.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
原則上以專家學者的見到順序發言委員如果要發言我們會請到主席台的登記每位五分鐘我們會視情況再插進去裡面全部發言完畢後行政機關就月管全責整體的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2504.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2510.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那麼會 整個有一份報告會送到財務會那麼我們希望能夠報到電視台好 現在請第一位的協助專家林友松律師發表告見 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2529.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2545.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
耐委員各位關心這個議題的朋友大家早安我的題目是為何需要制定融資業法我們民間版叫融資業法我要按哪裡不會動不會動 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2561.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2580.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
現在在操作那個時間暫停一下可以嗎按上面好那麼首先第一個部分我來講公司業者業務亂又沒有了為什麼這樣抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2596.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2600.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第一我要說的是因為公司法第15條說不能借貸所以我們出現了很多亂象就是假買賣真借貸超額計車的借貸等等那在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2625.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2641.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們知道我們有一些利息的一些規定不可以負利等等但是現在實際上運作依照法院的裁定判決可以看得出來這些融資業者利率有時候高達四五十%負利然後小立各種名目下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2641.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2668.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那麼因為我們本票本來應該都要記在一定的金額現在不少的業者要借貸人空白本票那空白本票金額空白他就借40萬跟你添60萬譬如這樣講這是造成很多問題再過來下一頁就是我們應該給人家企業這是很簡單的道理但是常常融資業者不給企業律師問他說你借多少不知道利率多少不知道因為我沒有企業有簽但是沒有給企業那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2669.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2674.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
再來就是聯合徵信在銀行這邊有但是事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2676.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2697.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
銀行局軍管會也規定說信貸不可以超過平均月收入的22倍但是融資業者沒有徵信所以他不知道這個人到底跟其他融資公司或者是跟銀行借多少都不知道所以常常有一個機車或汽車多次的貸款都有那信貸也沒有上限這些規定都沒有那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2700.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2728.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
更嚴重的是這些融資業者甚至跟詐騙勾結在法院的判決書是看得到的那這個部分其實會有所謂代辦等等那這些沒錢了被詐騙沒錢了他介紹你的融資管道那這樣的融資跟詐騙警察到底是不是勾結其實是一個很大的問題甚至看到那些人借貸融資公司借給大學生甚至中學生他拿人力還錢當沒有錢的時候他跟你講說也許你可以來當車手 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2730.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2749.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這很嚴重的事情 這社會很亂象那 當然 融資業者我們現在以前早期的銀行都是用電視廣告現在不是 是手機 網路那這些廣告很多誇大不實 很多的欺騙等等沒有人管那在下一頁目前 融資業者應收的又不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2755.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2775.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
融資業者應收的債權高達數千億到底多少錢坦白講沒有人知道我看到金管會說我用金融消費者保護法就可以管市場的九成我要請問你的依據在哪裡你的計算基礎在哪裡你根本不知道台灣的融資公司多達幾千家 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2777.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2804.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
其實影響的非常大那我們要講的是這個有關融資業者這個基線的債權高達數千萬當時候雙卡風暴民國94年95年雙卡風暴當時候在7000多億那現在已經幾千億我們現在目前目前的台灣沒有債務催收的法令沒有只有你沒有外販形式都可以都在只要不外販形式我都可以幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2804.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2823.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那這個部分會產生很多的社會問題如果我們再不提早規範的話會產生自殺、逃債、停留周險、犯罪、罹患很多疾病等等那麼在下一頁那金管會第二大點我要講的是金管會說我只要用金融消費者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2824.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2853.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我的題目很簡單,為何沒用?就很簡單,就是沒用為什麼沒用?他的今天的報告我也看了他其實跟他們的新聞稿差不多他說他管私家全台的融資業者,融資公司就有兩千家據悉有兩千家,沒有人統計,但是可能有兩千家但是不是只有公司啊請問大家有一點概念吧很多的代書,很多的代辦是個人喔很多借錢也是個人喔那這加上去到底才你所謂的市佔力九成根據什麼?你拿出去給我看 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2855.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2883.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
再來為什麼沒有用因為基本上這個金融消費者保護法主要的三個概念第一個概念是十一條十一條之三是民事賠償你去告吧一個一個的告這對有錢的人去投資發生問題還有可能但是對沒有錢的人借錢這些弱勢者哪有可能有人力去告你行政不做好你要讓司法下游對了一大堆的案件嗎讓弱勢者進入痛苦嗎他哪可能告 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2884.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2906.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
再來就是說 沒關係 我有爭議處理 我有這個評議中心請你告訴我 這也是一個一個個案啊你前面的行政不管好 你講後面有一個爭議處理有什麼意義消費者金融保護法有12條之一沒錯有行政可以警告 可以停業 可以行政制裁我們不客氣的說 請監管會公告從這個法以來 你依照這個條文做過幾件的處罰有一個寫著告訴我 沒有好 再來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2916.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2931.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
金融消費者保護法其實很多的亂象是沒有規範的沒有利息上限沒有維新沒有禁止互利沒有徵信的機制一個很好笑的事情金管會的今天的報告說要他們去KYC去認識客戶沒有徵信機制哪來的認識客戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2933.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2948.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
沒有徵信機制你怎麼知道他要跟誰借這個不可能的事情對詐騙集團的勾結沒有規範對不當吹售沒有規範對於提供的企業書沒有提供禁止購買本票的規範也沒有這些等等我要說的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2950.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2965.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
金管會用金融消費者保護法那麼錯向的條文然後用執法規這違反法律保留原則你這些規定其實沒有效果其實很多的問題有違反法律而且也很多都是沒有規範好 再來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2967.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2986.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我們融資業法的重點是什麼我們的民間版叫融資業法為什麼不叫做融資公司法因為日本叫做貸金業法因為規範的對象不只是公司包括個人行號合夥那我特別要講最近我發現我們一直在講融資公司請不要忘記了台灣多少的代書多少的代辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2986.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3008.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
多少的個人借貸這些的問題不一定比融資公司還少那我們的重點下一頁我們重點是許可制要有營業執照五年要你new你要再申請但是你這期間如果一再違反規定的話就會撤銷你的許可或者五年來不跟你有這個許可那麼在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3009.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3034.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們認為要徵信跟借貸的上限所以我們認為融資業者要成立同業公會同業公會要成立聯繫徵信的機制要跟銀行的金融聯繫徵信中心要交分資訊我們認為這個貸款的金額要一個上限譬如說有擔保品的要擔保品的價值如果信用貸款的話就像銀行局所規定的平均收入的22倍跟金融單位共用 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3035.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3058.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有關利率下頁有關利率的部分20%民廣是16%我們認為他的借給這些人信用比較不好16%是可以的當然這利率多少可以討論比民廣高一點是OK但是不可以巧立民募不可以互利那違經也要依照銀行局的概念有一定的限制下頁我們認為這個有關的貸款企業當然要給而且也要規範住案機關要規範應記載事項不應記載事項等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3061.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3072.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
不可以控買本票等等下一頁那有關如果融資業者真的能夠證明他是跟專門集團有勾結有共謀合作等等這些情況的話融資企業無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3073.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3100.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
借款人如果通常都已經交給詐騙集團這時候融資業者對借款人沒有請求權最重要是要賺錢讓他們有辦法賺錢再下來一點就是不得禁止不當業務或者廣告的業務的招攬或廣告行為這邊有一些規定那不當催收的部分我們也有所規定請大家看最後我們講一下就是有一些相關的融資業者負責的業務員催收人員要有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3101.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3123.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
資格的規定那麼最後我們講其實最重要的行政能夠規範好就能夠避免個案進入司法程序或避免個案求救無門那這個部分我們基本上的概念就是說原則上日本很多的刑法我們比較多是行政法但是你一再違反才有刑法更嚴重就讓你停業或取消你的許可那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3124.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3142.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
在下一頁基本上我們認為說今天很多的控制公司是上市公司下面升了子公司、孫公司、曾孫公司他如果有控制的這個情形是要負責任的一定要一起負責那另外就是說網路上如果有一些不當的廣告我們可以把它除去那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3143.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3166.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
最後我要講的是主管機關市經管會經管會看起來今天的報告一再反對一再的對外的表示但是我們要對經管會講話因為今天台灣最有監管經驗的跟配備的人員的市經管會沒錯但是面對這麼多的融資公司如果你沒有給他經費人力配備他們也是做不來這個也理解為什麼他們一再的想 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3167.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3189.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們不想做這也可以理解這個原因但是這個要處理最後我們的決議是說我們認為融資金融機關以外的融資是有一定的貢獻我們沒有反對融資業者我們沒有反對但是要合法化要把它建立適當的規範讓他們可以遵循那麼我們也要呼籲立法院跟金管會能夠早日通過避免這些社會問題的惡化謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3192.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3202.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
好 謝謝林律師很完整的一個報告好 我們下一位請趙新偉律師 趙律師請對不起 林之宇 林之宇律師 剛剛跟錯了 對不起請 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3227.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3255.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
主席 各位在座的這個學者先進還有這個與會的各位貴賓還有關心我們這個議題的朋友大家好那我是全國律師公會聯合會的消費者債務清理委員會主任委員那我先要說明一件事就是說其實我們剛剛的林律師以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3257.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3278.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
等一下發言的趙律師以及我還有很多位律師我們其實從民國97年消費者債務清理條例實行以來其實已經是幾年的時間我們都一直在輔助很多這個卡債主就是在雙卡風暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3279.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3287.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
產生的一些卡債主呢來協助他們清理這個他們的債務那很慶幸的其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3289.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3315.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
總覺得自己應該慢慢的可以鬆一口氣了因為我們確實協助了很多當然我不敢講是不是所有的卡債族都已經全部進來這個程序處理但是確實有很多人因此得到了這個他們債務的重生的機會重新看他們的生活我們感覺非常的開心但是呢在近一兩年來我們發現另外一種債務 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3317.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3338.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
悄悄的發生了就是所謂的汽車貸、手機貸、機車貸剛剛主席提到兩萬塊的機車借三十萬我自己在第一線接到的案子是二十年的機車大家覺得值多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3339.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3364.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們勉強估他是三千塊其實大概應該沒有人會去買一個花三千塊買一個二十年的機車但是他卻可以貸到三十萬另外這個債務人他的三十五萬的汽車我本來想說他貸一百萬我想說你欠那麼多錢還開一名車結果沒想到他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3367.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3383.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
35萬的汽車借100萬那所以這個問題現在已經變成是雙卡風暴之後會不會產生另外一個風暴我們不敢講那首先呢我們就來進入我今天最主要的議題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3386.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3410.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這個將融資業納管到金保法我們認為是沒有辦法徹底解決問題的首先我們從法制面來看就金保法它現在規範的幾個金融業銀行法、證券業、期貨法、保險業、電子支付業下一頁它其實都有相應的專法銀行法 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3412.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3436.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
證交法、期貨交易法還有保險法還有這個最新的電子支付機貨管理條例但是融資業呢沒有下一頁那我們簡單看一下金保法它的立法背景到底有沒有辦法是去規範到這個我們目前要講的融資公司法的部分融資公司業務的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3437.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3455.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那經貿法其實它因應在民國97年9月那個雷曼兄弟破產導致聯動債一夕之間造成很多人的損害那也因應這樣的社會背景政府開始思考關於這個衍生性金融商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3456.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3467.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
他的一個管制的問題還有提供消費者一個比司法程序更快的一個處理糾紛的方式所以才有這個金保法的規範下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3471.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3494.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那金保法呢其實它全部就31條那第一個它條文內容其實非常的簡單第一個就是最主要就是金融消費者的保護嘛那其實很多其實是消保法的一個重申那第二個就是關於金融消費爭議的處理程序這個確實解決了很多這個金融消費的爭議那再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3498.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3521.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那其實我們從歷史面的角度來看這個農事公司的專法也不是我們這次一年才開始討論了那其實早在97年就已經有了這個一個草案來送立法院審議不過很可惜的是因為同年發生金融海嘯所以就暫停了好下一頁那接下來我們就要來看就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3523.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3549.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
到底融資現在用金保法去納管是不是因為金保納管不是修母法它是只是修授權的這四個執法這樣的方式到底有沒有辦法來解決目前金融融資公司的一個亂象那首先我們看關於這個所謂契約約定的問題我們可以其實可以從這個比較表可以清楚的發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3551.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3576.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
經濟保護法規範是不足的譬如說剛才有林律師提到的這個空白本票的禁止這個是目前其實最大的亂象之一然後還有違經的上限還有借款金額的上限還有這個業務行為規範其實我們相對的那個融資公司法草案都是比較詳細清楚的在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3578.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3593.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
然後再來就是有關於這個融資公司從業人員的資格的積極限制及消極限制還有這個融資業的許可以及相關的規範這個經保法和執法目前當然是沒有規範在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3595.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3617.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
另外關於這個催收人員的部分催收這個不當催收也是現在融資公司亂象之一那目前比較起來金融保護法這部分呢只有對於不當催收有比較簡略的規定但是其實其他部分事實上都沒有規範好再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3620.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3631.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那關於這個融資公司融資業目前有一個亂象之一就是可能跟這個犯罪集團勾結我們我聽到有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3632.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3659.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
一個媽媽一個很悲慘的案例她就是被詐騙集團騙去跟融資公司借錢那這部分目前金保法也沒有相關的規範另外最重要的是法律最重要的一個效率就是要有一個效果但是目前看起來我們認為用授權執法規範是有一些法律保留的原則的爭議在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3662.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3685.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好下一頁那最後我想再強調我們把時間線回歸到20年20年前雙卡風暴產生的時候造成了很多無辜家庭一家人燒炭自殺這個新聞是在民國95年2月的新聞我們再看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3688.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3717.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個也是一樣同樣民國95年其實那時候大家應該都不陌生那也就是因為社會上有這樣子的一個卡在造成的一個社會悲劇所以才會有消費者照清理條例的催生那20年了我們來看是不是這樣的新聞是不是已經停止了我們看下一頁這個是在去年1月的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3719.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3747.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
還發生的新聞一樣就是一對家庭一個家庭呢一對夫妻被融資公司銀行提告申請致富迷你生活陷入困境不得已選擇絕路所以下一頁大家還不陌生當時20年前一個銀行的廣告借錢是一種高尚的行為還有那時候的現金卡害了多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3749.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3756.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
難道我們還要再讓這種的新聞和社會悲劇再繼續發生嗎好 謝謝大家好 謝謝林律師的發言 下一位請趙新偉律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3780.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3808.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
那個主席各位先生各位女士大家早安我是消貸委員會趙俊瑩律師因為我從97年一直在從事實務工作有關於那個消貸的問題就是卡債問題那我們最近在5年之間發現這個社會的亂象就是融資公司這個車貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3812.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3816.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
手機貸還有一個叫做實際上假買賣針蟹貸還有商品貸這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3822.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3848.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
而且我自己去查一些相關的這些融資公司的他的運收賬款或者負債那個簡直是比7000億還多我們現在講一下新型債務跟融資公司的一些關係那個麻煩這是我的總覽那個再下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3850.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3876.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那一般傳統債務是無擔保無優先債務就等於說現金卡信用卡保證債務非金融債務就等於說融資公司債務地下錢莊國民年金等那新型債務大概就車貸再下一個那我們現在這個都是實務上的案例就等於說一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3877.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3906.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
公司汽車貸款59萬實際上他拿到就43萬6千塊然後他還了8萬1那還欠他61萬6就可以知道這些融資公司他的利息是怎麼算你還了本金以後你事實上你最後還超過他的本金的錢那下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3907.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3908.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
這是機車貸款機車貸款我們看機車都是沒有價值或五千塊或一萬塊的機車他可以借到三十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3922.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3942.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
但30萬事實上有的根本沒有撥給他30萬但實際上他還了部分的錢像第一個案子他還借30萬他還了6萬1他還欠他3、4萬8但是大家你要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3943.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3962.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
既然融資公司是這樣子的貸款就是說都是超貸那可見他的營收賬款的貸賬有多少會不會引爆一個金融的風暴所以說我們為什麼說一直要求主管機關金管會要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3966.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3994.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
來立融資公司法在下一頁那這個手機貸款大家可以看如果是六萬塊的手機事實上只有拿到四萬五就是一般大概貸款情形都是這樣在下一頁這個是我們目前在出一個案子他借三百五十萬實際上只有拿到兩百八十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3996.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4015.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
扣掉兩成然後他繳了一百六十幾萬還欠兩百四十四萬那這個利率可能早超過四五十趴這是實際的個案而且這種案子不限於個人甚至包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4017.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4040.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
一般的中小企業但是呢主管機關對於金保法的限制只限制於個人那些中小企業如果碰到這種狀況的話不適用金保法的約束那叫那些中小企業怎麼辦這個是一個法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4041.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4070.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
判決就是借15萬實際上只有拿到10萬5那法院認為利率是13.44%這超過我們民法16%再下頁那這個是一個典型的詐騙案例就說融資公司跟A去簽訂一個契約叫他去推廣A又跟B行銷公司在簽契約然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4071.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4096.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
一個一就是一個招攬人一來詐騙這個原告說要投資加密進行那確實借了錢但後來他提起確認本項債權不存在但是後來找到到底是招攬人這個一到底是哪家公司的人員後來查了半天呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4098.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4112.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這一步都不是這些融資公司啊或者他的簽約對象都不是所以法院就認為這個是一個詐騙案認為原告就不負這個本票責任這下一位再下一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4116.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4133.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
然後目前我們認為這些車貸或商品貸都不提供債務人的借款契約金額還款明細而且債務人違約債權人在融資公司將利息滾入原本 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4135.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4162.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
計算本例合約中也沒有約定以未償還期數去乘以美期償還清額卻自行以此來計算本例而且最主要是說假如我今天在台北市借錢他的本票的裁定他是用到高雄去使得債務人根本沒辦法去打這種官司 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4164.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4191.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
所以說剛剛林律師有講到事實上融資公司都違反這些法律的規定它的利率都超過16%國內推動融資公司專法問題我認為是因為沒有法律的規定因為融資公司介於銀行跟民間之間的一個借貸關係所以說目前沒有人願意管 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4192.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4216.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
然後我們的主管機關呢經管會跟經濟部也是互踢皮球誰也不願意當主管機關來弄這趟再下業那這個是對於那個融資公司有關於那個就日本代金業法 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4218.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4242.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
由多重債務高利貸橫行,所以說他弄一個貸金業法,他的利率是大概上千二十趴在下跌但這個日本貸金業法,他適用在下跌,他是用日本利息限制法日本利息限制法大概本金不足十萬日元是每年二十趴十萬到一百萬十八趴,一百萬日元以下數在下跌 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4244.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4272.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那這是97年的刑罪版本的那個利率是大概非自然人不得超過30%那自然人是20%再下一頁這是黃委員黃專委員他認為對自然人是16%非自然人不得超過25%再下一頁這黃委員民間版本大概我們是約定利率是不得超過20% |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4275.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4296.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
總結,因為我就看過今晚會金寶法的規定金寶法對董事公司規定只限於自然的而對中小企業都不適用,這個是一個很大的問題然後貧困中心是超過120萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4298.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4323.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這些受評議單位可以不受拘束可以再打官司金保法本身也沒辦法拘束到融資公司怎麼跟這些客戶去簽訂利率另外最重要一點是評議中心沒有辦法解決這些融資公司跟客戶的爭議的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4325.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4339.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我認為這很有質疑所以說我們一定要立專法不管是融資業法或融資公司法來管這個那另外我最後報告一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4347.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4361.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
最後報告一點,我去查一些上市公司的公開資訊核論、中租、核敵、仲信、育隆、新興這些公司的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4363.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4390.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
應收賬款有九千兩百多億他的負債總額一兆兩千多億你就知道其他公司未公開的話那個是多少所以我們希望主管機關能夠重視融資公司或融資公司業法謝謝好 謝謝趙律師的發言下一位請淡江大學財經系的這個聶教授聶主任請 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4412.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4430.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
首先當然非常的肯定我們整個方向要對我們現在所謂的融資業有一些監理的做法這個是讓大家肯定的可是我們先了解一下金融這兩個字金融當然就是資金融通我們知道因為資金 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4432.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4448.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
融通的待遇所以在街坊待房可以讓整個社會活絡我覺得這非常重要也就是融資的服務進入了民間企業這個對於一個國家發展是非常有幫助的當然我們這個資金融通到底要怎麼做要管制管多元我覺得這個我有我的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4449.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4476.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
當然我先提出我的想法是彈性的一個金融工具應該要有一些比較中立的一個管制方式那麼我先講一下經濟學裡面非常清楚的雙四的辯證那一個是古典學派一個是凱因斯學派你可以完全用政府的手操控一切管得嚴嚴的就譬如現在川普他一個人操控遙控器可以控制整個世界那當然我們也可以用我們國家的力量來控制所有的融資註定的未來的走向 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4476.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4487.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
可是我知道 這個所謂的防弊和心力不管古典學派 凱因士學派你都應該要在弊端封鎖 然後心力還是要顧忌到當然這次因為我們看到了 不管這次非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4498.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4527.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
這有它的源起那當然很清楚的從卡債風暴那段時間我記得尤其在2022到2005之間我還常常上了舉光日去對軍人講他們卡債不要亂發真的就發生了卡債風暴後來當在金融海嘯當世代危機的時候就設計了CDO、CDS這是我們的專業當然這已經很肯定華爾街造出的一個亂象也使得世界產生了從這個各個投行Belston、Lim BrothersMoney全部一夕倒閉 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4528.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4542.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那麼金融海嘯的發生當然這裡面有非常多受傷的民眾剛剛大家也講到因此也訂定了所謂的金保法金融消費保護法我覺得利益非常的完善包括等等等等上面寫的我就不多唸我時間非常有限那他指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4543.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4567.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
同方式也希望從公平合理 平等互惠 沉浸原則等等等等等時間有限 我就不練了當然這裡面就對到了一些銷行有一些所謂的損害賠償的責任我用紅色來標下來 這個當然也是應該的但是剛剛有人提到 當然有時候金額過大或者這些可能保護不足 也是有可能發生然而這時候當然就有不少人提出了一個重要的東西 叫做融資專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4568.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4592.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這是我的見解如果我有所偏頗或者誤導請大家給我指教因為畢竟我們學者是走研究不一定這麼的實務專業那我覺得融資專法利益也非常好它第一個目的就是要增進資金的融通管道我剛講的金融然後健全融資業的經營和發展當然更要的是紅色這個叫保障融資業的客戶和借款的權益沒有錯當然也設定由主管機關是金管 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4593.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4621.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這是暫時的一個專法對不對那當然它的業務定義很清楚叫做實質安金錢借貸的相當之業務可是這裡就有一個問題了當後面東西太多太細我不可能講太嚴當然這年包括積極資格消極資格的訂定我看了以後比銀行金融的工資的負責嚴格還更嚴譬如包括你過去有一些犯法什麼什麼的反正就是各種之前的一些履歷的這個嚴格把關可能在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4622.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4645.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這個租賃裡面可能更嚴格我看到專法是這樣當然是應該的因為這個比較不被看到一些單位尤其我們的監控銀行證券監控下的銀行證券比較會被注意到monitor到所以這位地下遊走嚴格監管有它的必要可是我覺得下面我有一個我的看法也就是到底這個專法有沒有它的必要去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4646.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4666.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
那我現在呢想想一下就是說假設我們訂定的甚至比一般金融業更嚴苛的話可能會有一些我覺得的問題那我先講一下這個國與國之間的風情那麼各位剛剛都有提到一個叫做這個貸金業法那貸金業法貸金就是日本叫融資的概念可是我覺得金錢融通有兩種 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4667.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4692.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
一種叫做融資業務就是融資租賃還有一種叫做資金待遇我覺得這兩個可能要稍微分開講那麼怎麼講呢資金待遇和融資租賃我覺得是兩回事為什麼呢都是融資可是你知道銀行裡面也有分契金和銷金這時候資金待遇可能是對銷金或也就是所謂的自然人剛才大部分談到的受傷較重的沒有力量去跟他上面反駁甚至透過金融 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4694.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4713.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這個金保法也不一定完全得到他的賠償的這個就是我覺知應待遇的部分可是有另外一部分叫契金法人的部分可是這叫融資租賃這英文上是landing和leasing的不同那麼我要講的契金的部分是這樣當有人講到汽車的租賃可能好幾倍一輛汽車貸了好幾次這都有這種亂象我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4714.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4733.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
但是我覺得當然這個金保法我先講一下我們的時間是有限我先講完我最後的利益是覺得依我現在看金保法就夠了但是呢大家覺得不夠是因為它現在的規範還不夠的深入也就是對租賃這個這一部分租賃公司的資金代理這部分還沒有去更細膩的去這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4735.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4754.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
擴大的去把它這個規範更清楚所以我覺得把它納入做擴大納入我覺得有它的必要這是我最後要結論啦也是融資專訪目前我覺得有點過嚴我先講結論因為我怕時間關係我覺得將來還我覺得要階段性的做會比較好因為我總覺得所有事情要由小放大 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4754.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4778.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
循序漸進的做那我們再慢慢把關因為我知道有些人跳得很急馬上想跳到融資專法為什麼這樣講呢我們知道日本是一個求好在有的國家你去過日本就知道我本人斜槓在日本有開公司我有中介公司有民宿公司我也有管理公司我算是了解日本的做法其他國家像台灣是求有在好像對岸也是我們做得很快很效率可是當一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4779.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4805.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
很求好在有的國家他有些基礎可以就可以如果不夠的話我跟你講他所有的效率都變慢這國家會越來越弱我覺得這就是自由和權的問題你要到底管多嚴我跟你講日本即便求好在有喔據我所知他待經驗法我們去學他我覺得我們不要學得似乎像我猶記得在公治治理的時候我們董事會裡面的以前台灣前十年從2000年有什麼呢有監察人有獨立董事還有獨立監察人笑死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4805.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4821.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們學了日本的兩組法什麼都學就日本根本沒有獨立監察人那還學德國那一套結果後來改了改成美國式全部改成所謂的審計委員會有董事會選出三個董事三個獨立董事分別公立委員會就提名委員會啊審計委員會還有新的委員會搞到最後是什麼呢搞到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4822.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4838.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
還是學一個比較簡單的方式那日本詩不是很好嗎 錯 日本人的文情不同而且我們學得更嚴 每次都要比日本更嚴日本我跟你講 在《殆盡業法》有做而且是抓得很嚴 因為以前三國主席腐爛的這個催債造成民間很大的恐慌 這時候《殆盡業法》很嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4839.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4863.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
可是他們對融資租賃據我所知並沒有那麼嚴他只是像以前民宿在2018年6月15號以前一樣是有法則但沒有法規去管得非常嚴的也就是這為了促進中小企業的經濟發展我舉一個最簡單的例子我過去在台中曾經我是金主會的顧問他們有一次有一個理事會的一個主管他找我去見一個朋友他是台中最大的婚紗店 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4864.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4890.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
他說混納電非常貴喔 可是他說他現在沒錢了要借貸我剛好是華銀行的董事他希望我能不能透過我去銀行借貸我說我不去做這個關係但是我跟他說你很難借他說可是你看我7G設備這麼貴這麼棒你知道一台多少我說錯了 銀行只會對土地和房子借你連晶片公司 連晶片給我我都不會借我跟你講那怎麼辦這些公司明明還可以生存還有未來的全部被卡關了我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4890.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4907.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
如果你管得這麼嚴這些社專法這些老金在想一定要用專法來管管到這麼嚴的台灣經濟的未來中小企業的市場的融資界帶的活絡度以及國家經濟的發展在哪裡我知道我們的時間有限我每次講到最後都會發現所以我先把我最後講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4907.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4926.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我的改革方案就不講 我最後就講那我覺得建議就是經貿法擴大私用 優小放大成流敗退循序建計 彈性調整就像以前談自經區的時候 我們也是這樣的想法你看大陸的自貿區一做完的上海自貿區馬上就有福建的三個自貿區然後是全新自貿區 就是這樣出來的我覺得這非常重要 這叫階段性要求有再好 再好 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4926.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4942.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
再更好金保法擴大適用就已足夠了無論金額多少我覺得都適用那在下面我講金保法擴大適用大家有幾個還是一樣的他還是有會讓這些企業者金保法裡面還是要有法尊你要強調他的法尊成本還是會增加的外部法則要加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4943.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4967.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好 我覺得這也很重要 當然它額外的費用也會衍生所以不要認為說 你一下就要跳到那個階段你先把金融法擴大 適用讓這些能夠資金待遇給中小企業我覺得我強調是分開自然人 法人 這邊要盯得很嚴在這個資金待遇這部分 但融資租金這部分要watch 追蹤但是是不是要能夠給他一點財源讓國家盼望我覺得這非常重要 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4971.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4976.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
好 謝謝聶教授的抱怨下面請黃珊珊委員請抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4983.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5006.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
謝謝主席還有各位貴賓我想今天非常重要謝謝昭緯排了融資公司專法的公聽會那我在上個月也開過一個公聽會其實融資公司專法我們立法委員並沒有訂件我們希望說以前因為融資公司它可能沒有那麼大的危害但是在我們去年上任之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5007.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5031.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
大家都記得有山盜猴子這樣的影片讓所有的年輕人現在已經開始都過融資然後付了非常高額的債那甚至還有不法的詐騙集團要被害人再去融資公司繼續借錢來給他騙今天的問題在於我們的銀行融資困難所以中小企業不容易得到才因應而生了其他的融資管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5032.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5050.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那當然融資管道在我們以前可能是營樓可能是所謂的當鋪甚至是地下錢莊那現在的問題是大家已經不再做地下錢莊而是合法的向這些融資租賃公司來做借款而這個借款變得非常非常的糜爛尤其是真融資 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5052.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5070.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
假租賃一個摩托車一個手機可以接到超過它價值非常非常多的相關的額度這才是我們今天要管的東西所以它已經不單單只是銀行跟所謂一般租賃業的問題了而是我們對租賃公司並沒有任何的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5071.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5089.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
銀行管很嚴 註定公司完全幾乎沒有管制尤其是催收 違約季的上限 利率的計算方式甚至所謂貸款審核 它都沒有任何的限制也沒有任何的法規 才是我們今天要立專法的目的那這個專法到底要限到多少 多嚴 這個都可以討論但是我們如果沒有訂出一個 他們應該有的規範就會像現在這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5096.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5115.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
假租赁的名义去做真融资的贷款那更严重的是我们的民众没有所谓的金融素养他们对于他们自己面对到未来的这些债务的状况其实也不是那么清楚融资公司的规模已经从一般的公司它已经扩大到我们我称之为所谓的影子银行 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5115.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5133.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
中租抵合的资产是9000多亿容预留的资产是2000多亿已经超乎甚至跟我们银行公股银行的规模是相当的那第二个部分就是他们在业务上面并没有像银行收到这么多的限制所以他们的宽松核待对担保务的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5134.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5154.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
還有所謂的空白本票以及相關用手續費違約金來做所謂的把利息隱藏在這些費用裡面這些不肖的業務員或不肖的相關的這些業者他們其實是才是今天融資公司專法想要管制的對象最嚴重的是鼓勵民眾繼續的借貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5156.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5175.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
甚至越借越多然後造成民眾沒有辦法還錢的這個狀況那金管會的部分在我們上任之前其實完全沒有管後來彭主委上任之後其實真的比以前要認真許多但是我們還是有兩個可以做的事情第一個監察人最近糾正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5176.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5194.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
公股銀行因為公股銀行借貸出去給這些所謂的融資註定公司並沒有做任何的規範跟要求如果金管會要管他可以從公股銀行的核貸後面的所謂的貸後管理我們錢借出去了他用到哪裡去不知道只要他付利息就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5195.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5210.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這不是金管會可以迴避的責任也就是說這些大型的融資中心公司他把錢借走了他做了哪些事他用很低低的貸款然後取得很高利的貨報酬一個周圖迪和他的應收賬款 貸賬就高達一百多億請問他賺了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5214.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5236.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
今天才是這個問題所以第一個金管會該做的是公股銀行的代後管理完全沒有做現在開始做還來得及第二個做法是金管會我們一直說只要納金保法的納所謂的20家但是剛剛講了這20家只是你管得到的還有很多你管不到的但是我們現在在行前防治法在我們去年修法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5237.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5267.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
在洗鹽防治法的第五條第二項其實規定的很清楚辦理融資性租賃還有提供虛擬資產服務的事業跟人員適用本法關於金融機構的規定也就是洗鹽防治法已經把融資租賃業放進去了也就是我們金管會可以管虛擬資產服務也可以管融資租賃業它適用金融機關的規定所以我們必須要把融資租賃這個部分的定義把它定清楚否則你到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5268.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5297.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
洗錢防治法要規範誰如果我們今天沒有一個融資租賃的定義的話這個洗錢防治法又是一個沒有用的東西所以我們在講如果金管會真的要管你可以對虛擬資產業者讓它變成基隆機構你同樣也可以對融資租賃業把它變成基隆機構在洗錢防治法本身就可以規範所以不要告訴我說金管會不能管太多金管會已經把這個放在洗錢防治法了所以只要 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5297.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5318.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
像虛擬資產業者一開始我們也沒辦法管所以現在要他什麼自己來聲明自己來登記現在慢慢慢慢納入管理所以這些事情不是不能管是你要不要管經管會的做法要不要強力來推動第一個代後管理第二個透過洗錢防治法的方式在這個部分要求他們來做聲明來做登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5319.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5343.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
在還沒有辦法納管專法之前金管會可以做得更多監察院報告要求金管會要訂出專法這也是我們立法院希望能夠開放各界討論所以今天的討論會非常非常的珍貴因為接下去我們有相關的法案我這邊有台灣民眾黨的版本王世堅委員有他的版本我想很多的財政委員會都有自己的版本我們也希望看到金管會的版本以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5345.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5353.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
好謝謝黃委員的發言下一位請吳俊志律師請發言請好那主席各位長官還有各位先進大家好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5376.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5403.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那融資公司目前造成的一些消費亂象我相信大家剛剛前面幾位律師都跟大家說明的還蠻詳細的那我這邊就是稍微補充一下一般來講我們遇到這種就是債務的話那以往我們是什麼樣的就是解決的方式因為就是不管說這些債務是怎麼造成的那最後還是必須要就是把它解決不然它會長期用待帳的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5403.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5424.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
持續存在那我們過去的就是消費的債務清理條例就是在這樣的前提之下它設計出來那目前的消債機制呢它原則上就是前面會有一個前置協商的程序那這個前置協商的程序我們是希望說那金融機構可以大家就是全部擬出一個共同的方案那 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5424.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5445.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
消費者就針對這個方案還就好不用說今天就是5號還A公司10號還B公司那樣子就是情況變得非常複雜那每一家計算的時間跟利息也不一樣那如果說協商沒有辦法成立的話呢後面才會走到所謂的更生或是清算那就是由法院來裁定說這個債務人他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5449.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5473.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
消費能力那是他能夠還多少錢或者是說他可能根本就沒有負擔的能力那可能就直接用他目前的資產來就是清償這些債務那當然後面的程序非常的冗長所以可以的話那當然立法的緣由是希望說大家能夠在前置協商的階段就協商成當然是最好的但是目前因為這幾年融資公司的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5474.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5479.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
案件量越來越多的關係導致這個前置協商好像變成形同虛設下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5482.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5510.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
為什麼會說形同虛設呢因為我們目前消費者債務清理條例是這樣規定的那簡單來說就是說所有的金融機構他們會統一提出一個方案但是不是金融機構的他就不管你了所以當你的融資公司或是說不一定是融資公司可能是資產管理公司就是有可能原本銀行這些債務已經被賣給資產管理公司了那我們就是說這個案件在前置結商階段可能就很難解決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5511.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5540.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
就變成說消費者必須單獨去跟這個融資公司或資產管理公司去談然後其他的部分銀行會提出一個方案我們也可以想像說就是消費者可能很難有辦法去跟融資公司或資產管理公司談一個方案甚至以我們的經驗融資公司根本就不願意談甚至他們還有可能會放話說沒關係你可以去辦更生那等你辦到更生之前我們就繼續走程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5543.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5571.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那這樣子的情況呢也會變成說以往因為以往我們的消費者債務清理的前提是說這個債權人可能是金融機構但是現在呢我們發現說債權人裡面是融資公司的比例越來越高那這個融資公司比例越來越高它又導致說我們前面的協商變成說完全沒有協商的可能這是目前我們的消費者債務清理的一個困境那第二個問題呢下一頁上一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5573.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5597.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
就是我們公司法第15條在目前的情況形同虛設公司法第15條原則上就是公司的資金除非有業務往來的話不可以任意貸給其他人嘛那原則上金融業者他可以貸給其他人這是沒有問題的但是一般的公司他不行那目前的融資公司用什麼方式呢他就是用手機貸或是商品貸這些很常見的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5598.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5624.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那剛剛就是前面幾位律師都有介紹到說就是這些手機或是商品它的超過餘放比可能非常高例如說一個價值就是三萬的商品然後可能就是代表十萬代表二十萬然後後面可能就是還有就是所謂的空白本票甚至說利率非常高的問題那甚至我們還遇過就是不只是這些大家想說手機代可能就是代個五萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5626.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5644.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
有一些個案我就問債務人那你的手機在哪裡我看他可以就是擔保多少他說什麼我從頭到尾都沒有拿到手機啊我就說商品袋問他說那你商品袋你袋的商品到底是什麼他說沒有那個就是一個借錢的名稱而已我從頭到尾都沒有拿到什麼商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5646.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5663.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以這種時候我們就發現說不只說它是超過單保品的價值甚至說它一開始連單保品都沒有拿到那這個單保品呢它一開始只是一個就是交易的幌子而已所以呢另外呢就是剛剛有提到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5664.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5690.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
違約金的問題我們還有另外一些債務跟大家分享一下就是如果這些債務將來我們預期到說利息會很高那我們就確認當事人說你趕快就是先還一還嘛但是我們後來幫他算了違約金呢就是如果提前清償是有違約金的提前清償的違約金比繼續還的利息還要高就是說我想要讓他提早還都沒有辦法提早還 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5691.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5716.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那目前對消費者的債務可能就會陷入這樣的狀況那剛剛也有律師就是幫我們介紹到說剛剛那個趙律師也有幫我們介紹到說目前融資公司的餘放比其實比銀行要高得非常多那這個部分我有查過就是目前台灣各家銀行的餘放比大概都在0.1到0.2之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5719.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5745.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
但是融資公司即使是一些上市融資公司那這邊的餘放比他們也是2%到10%那甚至是說我們一些中小型的融資公司他們可能餘放比會更高那這將來會不會有可能的金融風險那其實也是一個值得觀察的地方當然有這麼高的餘放比那也就代表說在銀行以外那其實有很高的資金需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5746.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5774.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
那如果我們把這些資金需求全部嚴格限制的話那對中小企業來講會不會是一個他們必須要去尋求一些更高風險或更高利息的借貸那這也是我們認為說就是需要考量的地方所以就是這個融資公司法呢規範的部分除了自然人以外是否有必要規範到中小企業或者是說規範到的公司法人的範圍我覺得這個是可以討論的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5778.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5803.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 那我這邊簡單建議就是說我們在消費者的前置協商的部分是不是可以考慮將融資公司同步納入那以免說我們目前的前置協商程序就是實際上變得形同虛設這樣子那另外就是說就是我們的融資公司法裡面有規範說有擔保品跟無擔保品那有擔保品的部分不能超過這個擔保品的價值嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5804.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5818.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那這個擔保品我們是不是能夠實際上去規範說這個擔保品你必須要交到消費者手上那必須要在簽的當下確定說這個擔保品的價值以免像我們剛剛提到的許多就是根本就沒有取得擔保品擔保品只是一個幌子的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5819.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5847.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
好那最後就是說剛剛有幾位同道已經建議過了就是跟目前的徵信系統去做一定的整合讓就是這些在貸款的同時能夠有辦法去判斷說他是跟其他融資公司甚至說就是跟當鋪或者是說跟銀行目前已經有多少債務那在綜合評估說要借他多少錢那以免說這些消費者在銀行以外又負擔了太多自己根本就沒有辦法清償的債務 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5848.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5877.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
好 那我報告到這邊好 謝謝吳律師的說明下一位請林思敏立委請謝謝主席各位委員 各位學者 專家 大家好我想網路影片啊三道猴子的一生雖然已經上架兩年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5878.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5903.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
但是我們只要談到融資公司的放款的亂象都還是會被人提起說這是為什麼那就是因為到現在都還沒有一個專法來有效監管影片中所提到的那些真實的融資放款的問題更也已經造成無以數計的融資借貸的受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5905.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5923.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
其實在民國97年行政院就已經提出了融資公司法草案並且在當年的2月4號將該草案送到我們立法院來審議但是因為同年爆發了金融海嘯因此這部專法的審議就不了了之了 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5924.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5946.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
而我們到今天為止民間借貸的業務是越見普遍也因此而出現許多借貸的亂象我們看到一台價值才兩萬元的機車而且不是新車二手的現在可以借到三十到四十萬非常離譜 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5948.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5964.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
也就是因為有許多類似這樣不合理的高利放貸或者超出常理的這種借貸交易造成我們非常多急需用錢的民眾反而掉入這些無盡的債務深淵之中 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5965.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5990.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
甚至還有融資公司的不肖業務員跟詐團來掛鉤聯手來詐幹我們這些事業者或者是我們的老人家以及一般的民眾以假借貸真詐財的方式來獲取不法的高額利息這種亂象以及不法的行為讓原本是提供民眾另一個借貸管道的通路 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5994.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6002.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
來解決他們這個燃煤之急的融資公司這個部分已經變成為嚴重的新型的一個債務源頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6004.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6024.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但是我們來看金管會現在提出的解決方案是先將中租、育農、和潤以及日盛台郡4家上市集團下面的12家融資公司納入我們剛才講的金融保險金保法金融消費者保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6026.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6039.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
來納管並授權相關執法修法來強化金融消費的保障也就是說金管會他還是不打算提出專法來監管以及解決融資公司借貸的種種問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6041.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6066.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
但我們看到這樣的做法能夠來解決本席所提到的各種融資借貸的不合理以及違規的亂象嗎能完善的保障我們民眾的權益嗎當然不行啊所以我們認為依照金管會的做法除了是緩不濟急以外也沒有辦法完整有效的解決融資借貸所延伸的金融消費問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6068.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6087.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我們因為在二零一年通過的金保法他主要處理的是金融消費者所購買的金融商品以及服務的消費爭議事件尤其是針對延伸性的金融商品以及各類的保當商品因此金保法所設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6089.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6107.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
依照金保法所設立的金融消費評議中心一直以來他們專注處理的是解決金融及保險糾紛面對我們這種更為複雜的融資公司的借款問題評議中心可以說是接觸的案例非常的少 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6108.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6127.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
所以我們也質疑說這個平均中心能夠去解決有能力解決這種融資借貸的問題嗎我們加上在金保法之下平均中心他所能決定的金融消費的一個糾紛的一個賠償額度最高就是一百二十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6128.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6138.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
而且最後還是要訴求法院就仰賴民事求商而關於我們中小企業戶的保障根本沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6140.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6162.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
若是再加上遇到融資的詐騙金保法絕對是不足以處理並監管這些融資公司所延伸的相關的問題所以即使金管會目前的做法可能是過度措施但是別忘了各種融資借貸的問題還是每天持續在上演 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6163.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6169.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
絕對不應該用這種過度的方式來解決這樣的問題所以一定要栗酸法來徹底解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6171.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6197.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們在國內我們看到當鋪業者有專法就當鋪業法虛擬資產我們現在也正在討論虛擬資產的服務法但我們最需要專法的融資公司業務卻到現在還沒有下落因此我要呼籲除了我們委員所提的版本以外行政院金管會也應該儘速提出相關的版本來回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6200.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6203.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我們97年就有融資公司法的草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6204.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6232.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
可以作為參佐同時我們剛才有位學者也提到說外國的立法例比如日本的貸金業法英國也有消費信貸法所以我們盡快的重新的提出融資公司的專法以監管處理融資借貸的各種金融問題一來可以讓融資公司有法可循提供合理合法的融資管道給我們民眾二來也可以讓有需求的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6234.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6261.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
能夠在法律的保障之下來取得他所需要的資金來營造一個完善的融資環境提升我們國內金融市場以社會的安全與穩定以上 謝謝好 謝謝林市民委員的發言下一位請政大財政系的教授黃教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6281.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6309.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
主席在座的各位委員還有在座的各位學者先進大家好今天我來參加這個公聽會基本上我覺得是非常有意義的因為剛提到很多學者專家還有我們委員的一些意見我覺得大家對於消費者的保護非常的重視這也是我長久以來一直堅持的一個方向就是我們要保護消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6310.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6326.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
但是今天有關於金融租賃監管的問題我想今天我在這邊就針對幾個部分在家裡說明一下我的想法跟各位先進跟各位委員來做一個分享下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6330.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6358.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我先就各方的立場做一個比較然後再把這個金保法納管的累積跟經理經驗然後再審慎評估那個融資公司法的一個情況做一個說明接下來我們再提出我們覺得監理的差異化對於監理的銷金維護中小企業融資的空間然後做一個報告最後我們再做一個結論我想我們看了幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6360.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6386.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
學者專家的一些想法就我個人來說我個人覺得租賃業是基本上是台灣經濟發展中非常重要的一環因為有很多在性不良的一些企業他要融資的時候他可能沒有辦法循一般的管道到金融機構去所以租賃業就補足了他們的這個銀行的缺口那基本上來講我個人覺得如果要嚴禁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6387.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6407.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
或嚴格的管制或甚至到最後如果出了問題給他禁止那這樣的一個做法對於租賃人員來講可能不是一個很恰當的方式那當然我個人覺得就是對於這個治安人和法人的這個金融的部分對於個人和企業融資的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6408.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6424.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
基本上來講應該要差別化的管理因為這兩個是相當不同的一個對象說實在話我認識學生有在從事租賃業他們跟我講他們害怕企業被他們詐騙他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6426.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6452.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
不是他他們沒有辦法詐騙企業但是對消費者來講可能是消費者被詐騙這也是剛剛為什麼很多委員很多先進很在乎的這一塊那當然我也很支持大家對於這個消費者金融保護的部分那當然還有其他的學者也是針對這個所謂BNPL的一個部分他提出一些看法合理監理這個提高消費者的保護那 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6455.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6468.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
再加上有一些部分他也是支持我的看法就是有關於企業和消費者融資的分別他要管理下一頁可以下一頁嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6471.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6500.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那基本上來講我覺得這個我們目前的這個金融消費者保護法裡面已經把這個過度借貸然後誤導廣告還有不當缺售這些部分我們已經有做一些適當的一個處理那當然這些部分也許還沒有完善就好像剛剛有幾位這個我們律師的這個律師界的一個前輩大家所提出來但是我覺得也可以再加強但是我覺得這一塊再提升這個消費者所謂部分應該會有相當大的一個提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6501.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6527.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
另外就是說如果今天我們貿然的把這個所謂的這個融資公司法通過的話那可能我們可能就是要一步到位啦那一步到位的結果我不知道目前產生的問題是因為我們沒有通過這部法但是如果我們通過這部法之後呢會不會產生另外一堆的問題這是我比較擔心的因為很多的中小企業可能因為這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6528.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6551.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
借不到錢那他們接下來生計他們不是一個人他們可能還有好多的員工這是我比較擔心的那當然如果你要接近各國的經驗日本的這個代經業法的部分基本上到最後的結果是什麼是很多的企業就退場轉到地下去那也很多企業可能借不到錢這是我們也是蠻擔心的那當然我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6555.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6583.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我們當然希望我們去監理這個銷經的部分所以我們要遏止民眾信用不當的擴張我們要設立這個融資條件審查和明確的契約的規範另外我們金保法納管強化對過度借貸廣告和不時不當吹收我們會進一步的控管另外我們也會增加金保法納管業者的數量適切的提升融資業者提高消費者的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6585.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6612.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
當然我覺得目前我們要求租營業遵守一些法規這是我們接下來一定要積極的去進行避免未來有更多的所謂的消費者在借貸部分被詐騙的情況所以我們要求業者要積極配合監管機構另外產業提升自律守則另外強化消費保護的能量當然我們要關專法這個專法也不是不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6613.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6622.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我覺得在什麼時候做什麼事可能是一個比較好的思考的模式也就是說循序漸進的來目前為止我們就一步到位的話剛剛聶俊忠教授說的目前專法裡面所設定的條件比銀行業還要嚴苛的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6633.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6646.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
那這個對中小企業的融資未來可能造成的影響我相信這是未來我們沒有辦法預期的所以當然這個時候如果我們逐步的去推動也許會是一個比較好的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6647.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6669.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那當然這個目前全球是不確定性在這個當下我覺得沒有人知道接下來會發生全世界的金融業全世界的經濟會發生什麼事情所以注定市場基本上來講如果目前的運行當然在消費的部分有受到一些不好的一個情況發生我們要去監管之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6670.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6692.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
租賃市場已經成為資產管理和資金運作的一個重要環節所以我覺得在這個當下是不是要把這個專法通過我覺得我是持相當的保留的態度因為如果通過的話有可能他們全部轉為地下化而且即使通過了那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6693.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6719.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
沒有納管的就像剛剛有學者張家說的好幾千家這好幾千家全部都納管我相信不曉得第一個他們在哪裡第二個即使全部都納管金管會有沒有辦法去去處理啊這我就覺得非常納悶我就覺得很質疑那另外就是說當然剛剛有學者提到說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6721.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6743.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
這個租賃業,這個融資租賃業的預放比例很高,當然很高啊因為很多企業,因為很多債性不良的這些企業,他需要啊所以他當然這個預放比就很高啊,你這個預放比就表示他債性不良所以當然要高風險高報酬,可是高風險高報酬的情況之下你又把那個利率要限制在某個地方,避免他們會被這個道具產生不好的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6744.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6767.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以這個利率過低的結果,造成有這個循環的情況所以我個人就覺得說,如果要做的話可能是不是逐步先求有再求我們先從消費總金融保護法開始先做,那不夠的地方我們再補充另外逐步的推動之後,如果這可以解決大部分消費者被金融詐騙問題的話我們就不要再做,如果還沒有我們再繼續再進行下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6772.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6776.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
好 謝謝黃教授的發言 下一位請 王世堅委員 發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6792.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6814.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
謝謝主席謝謝今天來的各位辛苦的教授還有法學界這些好朋友們你們非常有正義感因為其實我這個我去年2月1號上任第一天之後我的第一次質詢就是針對數條三兄弟 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6818.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6842.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
這個有牌的地下錢莊他們的可惡惡行惡狀而我認為薯條山兄弟以及一乾租賃公司 融資公司等他們的惡行惡狀背後等於政府縱容他們啦尤其銀行體系怎麼說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6844.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6863.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這薯條三兄弟十幾二十年來已經龐大到他們成為金融怪獸不但上市上櫃他如果拿出來借的錢自己的錢也就算了 不是他左手向銀行體系借了五千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6864.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6886.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
利息連一趴都不到右手放高利貸20%的高利貸給需要的民眾們吸血啦左手借一趴而且銀行的錢社會大眾的錢耶右手去做他們的高利貸那這跟地下錢莊有何不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6893.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6920.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
地下錢莊只是遮遮掩掩不是嗎那他們是有牌的地下錢莊公然的在社會上還講一些話說沒有他們那需要錢借不到向銀行借不到款的民眾們那怎麼辦要跟當鋪要跟地下錢莊借囉還講這種威脅的話我全然不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6923.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6944.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那麼現在的亂象如果不再管他們這些鼠療三兄弟為首的這些融資公司已經啊比方說他們底下的業務員已經跟詐騙集團勾結要欺負更多的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6946.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6948.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
因為詐騙集團勾結 詐騙集團要騙錢啊透過你沒錢你怎麼給他騙 好啦他的業務員去招攬生意從註定公司借錢 借來給詐騙集團騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6961.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6987.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
受害的民眾本來借不到錢就已經很傷腦筋他可能要從事一個小規模的自己的小生意可能要買個車子機車送貨等等結果反而被不肖的業務員不肖的這個融資公司又把他們剝了另外一層皮然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6989.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6996.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
鼠條三兄弟為首的這幾家大的他們貸款的觸角已經也到了不動產 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6998.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7027.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
到了建設營造那個行業了本來呀我們國家的銀行貸款給這些不動產業者有個上限中央銀行規定每個銀行貸款給不動產給建設公司建設行業不得超過他當日存款總額的30%用這樣子來控管對不動產的放款這是對的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7028.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7051.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這些薯條山兄弟他大剌剌的把錢搬給這個不動產業者那這就成了這個破口嘛因為薯條山兄弟他們不屬於金融業不是銀行業不受這個管制啊那金管會 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7053.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7068.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
總是在我黃珊珊委員好幾位委員關注之下總算他們翻箱倒櫃找了金包法說用金包法把鼠條三兄弟先納管那他們的好意我接受他們是說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7069.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7097.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
王士堅你講的這個租賃金融公司管理法它裡面很多我們都把它列入列入這個金保法啦這個金保法但是必須去找薯條三兄弟商量說把你納管要他經過他同意要把他納管給薯條三兄弟一個重量的機會就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7099.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7124.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
結果鼠寮山兄弟好啦聽一聽他就說好吧他也說好但是我認為金保法只是個過渡金保法是為了我們要快速的保護金融消費者就是受害的民眾們我們可以透過他來債務協商那這個暫行可以但是進一步一定要租賃農事公司管理法我為什麼這麼講因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7127.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7153.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
進一步的這個專法才能夠對這些二職的屬良產業力跟這些農資公司才可以對他們做行政監督跟業務監督啦所以我認為這個農資公司的成立圖定公司的成立需要經過主管機關的許可必須取得證照才可以營業而且我認為這個證照必須一定的年限比方說五年他就必須重新申請然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7154.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7165.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
這些融資業者不得借牌違反有刑事責任那必須製作聯報接受檢查的義務我認為這些都必須把它納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7166.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7193.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
然後他如果違反這些行政監督管理的項目我們應該可以停止他融資業務可以解除融資業務者相關人的職務然後我們進一步可以廢止這個許可證可以不讓這個融資公司這個租賃公司再橫行霸道然後這些公司背後的控制公司控股公司也必須接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7195.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7219.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
融資專法的管理比方說一樣對這個公司犯了錯誤背後的控制公司自然也應當受到罰還甚至 甚至一樣就是所有的處罰有刑罰的部分也能夠對背後的控股公司那網路不當的廣告啦那本來就應該限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7220.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7243.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
限制而且要移除他們在網頁繼續來使用那業務監督的上面我認為對於借貸金額的上限我認為對借貸的利率還有他們巧立名目很多啊他們巧立什麼違約金啦手續費貸辦費自納金講一大堆反正他就是高利貸就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7244.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7264.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那我認為利息也必須限制否則現在的亂象現在亂象到什麼程度他們公然跟貸款人說你去成立假的公司或者做假的買賣契約為什麼要做假的買賣契約假的買賣契約比比皆是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7265.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7293.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
這些租賃公司 鼠貓三兄弟他要規避民法的重力罪要規避重力罪所以他就假的買賣契約所以一大堆的不必要的亂象跑了出來所以我認為當然在業務上要做對他們的除了行政監督也要做業務監督然後很重要的業務監督就是不得對第三人吹嗅也不得 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7295.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7314.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
委請討債公司那個那個 催收這一點非常重要這一點我甚至認為他們債權移轉都還必須主管機關同意否則他找討債公司他說我沒有違法啊我不知道他討債公司啊他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7315.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7329.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我是轉 移轉債權的我販賣我這個債權欸 債權的移轉不需要債務人同意他不必告訴你債務人他債權人就 債權本來就可以移轉啦所以他移轉給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7331.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7354.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
討債公司所以各位我很沉動的舉出簡簡單單講這一些我要說的就是說台灣價值裡面除了我們有平等的工作權平等的教育權以外我們每一個國民要有平等的借貸權才對嘛照說借貸的業務光明磊落銀行來借才對啊銀行如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7356.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7368.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
你的信用不好你沒有抵押品你出出社會的話你是消費性貸款的話可以你可以限制金額嘛你可以提高利率嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7369.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7392.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
貸款給需要者 本來就是銀行的責任啊銀行怎麼可以假借那一大堆理由假借那一大堆理由以後 結果放款了五千億光是薯條三兄弟就五千億大家想想看 這是多可怕 多麼可惡的罪行啊所以我希望 金管會醒一醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7393.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7418.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
銀行歸金管會管未來我認為這些融資租賃公司也應該歸金管會管金管會才有專業的金融監理人員你們才拿這些可惡的金融怪獸你才拿他們有辦法但是要有辦法之前我們就真的要先立這個辦法這個辦法就是融資租賃公司管理法好 謝謝主席好 謝謝黃偉銀 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7421.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7427.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
博法院 下面請台大的陳教授 陳兆鴻 陳教授 歡迎請 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7442.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7470.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
主席各位委員各位長官各位先進大家好我是台灣大學陳兆宏那因為我們有簡報我就簡單就是分享一些想法這樣就是剛剛聆聽各位委員就是有參考這個草案的一些相關規定那我想的想法以下有幾點第一個就是我們首先可能需要思考一下到底我們是要規範什麼東西那其次就是我們設定的不管是用像金管會提案用金融消防法或是說用專法的方式到底有沒有辦法能力去達到那個政策目標所以從這個角度我有幾點想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7470.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7492.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
首先就是如果是怕的是廣義的先不管他到底叫什麼融資公司倒閉的話那其實如果是銀行之所以高規約管制是因為他其實收存款那如果這些借錢的公司如果沒有收存款那其實他倒閉的話其實是害到自己的股東所以其實是公司法跟證交法的問題其實如果擔心的說是比如說貸款 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7493.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7522.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
太容易比如說跟他山盜猴子或是比如說20萬的二手摩托車可以貸到50萬那我想更深層的問題是應該研究一下為什麼為什麼這家公司願意在這種情況下貸款如果這個問題沒有解決其實大家也不知道為什麼後面會發生這些事情那這個東西其實就反映出貸款的兩個面向第一個就是借款是合約合約一定就有雙方至少會有兩方所以一定會有貸款方跟借款方那借錢這個事情唯一的風險就是信用風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7522.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7538.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
所以借錢的人為什麼他願意在單包品價值不高的情況下願意貸款我想這是根本上在市場上必須去參考的原因那如果反過來講有些借款的人其實為什麼願意這種情況下貸款也許他是真的缺錢也許他就是想騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7539.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7559.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
但是因為借錢這事情本身就有它天然的交易限制如果借錢人都不care他都不在乎人家的單包品值不值他願意貸那為什麼法律上需要介入這麼多他到底原理在哪裡我想這是在市場面我們必須做更深入研究的地方那其次剛剛也有很多委員或是先進有提到詐騙的問題那我想如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7559.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7579.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
融資公司本身就是詐騙集團,那我們原本詐騙相關法律,包括刑法、洗錢防治法,之前去年通過的打詐司法,原本就應該有CRE的一個機制,對不對?但如果他不是詐騙集團的一部分,意思就是他沒有勾結的狀況,他就是比如說某個受害人因為被騙,所以跟他借錢,他也借了, |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7580.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7598.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那這高概率到最後也拿不出錢來那這種情況下這些公司事實上也可能是受害者對不對所以單純因為這樣的原因到底有多少原因是他們自己因為是詐騙集團還有現行法治到底夠不夠我想是需要再思考的問題那接下來有些規範的理由主要是因為大家覺得客戶可能會被 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7599.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7613.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
剝削 有這種借貸剝削的可能性那這事實上也不是沒有發生過類似的事情像美國刺激房貸級就有類似的概念只是人家是透過銀行的方式那我想有幾點是大家通常關注的地方第一個是高利貸或是利率太高的部分那首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7614.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7643.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
我國就高利貸的部分原本就有一些法律規定民法205條有規定上限定在16%我唸書的時候還是20%刑法有重力罪的問題所以如果原本就沒有一些法律限制就是就有設上限的情況那我的問題是我們是不是應該尊重一下市場機制我舉一個例子台灣因為有設重力罪上限所以信用卡的循環利息一定要在16%以下超過的話基本上是違法啦法律上也不會有效但是我剛剛隨便翻了兩個銀行譬如說星展在新加坡 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7644.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7671.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
在新加坡的行展不是台灣的行展它的信用卡循環利息是25%香港的東亞銀行是35%比起來我們算很小額的那反過來講在有些情況下信用貸款本來就會利息高為什麼循環利息會高無擔保債務而且很明顯的就是因為已經沒有付捲持繳費所以信用風險高 利率高是正常的那另外一個可能大家討論的是說是不是有一些定型化契約或不公平的一些條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7672.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7693.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那我們當然也不否認其實在定義化契約的情況下其實業者有時候會有一些不公平的條款或是設計一些很奇怪的一些交易機制那我想這個原本也不是無法可管我們民法有一些機制公平交易法或甚至一些金融消費法其實都有些設置的機制那剛剛有先進或是草原有提到可以利用比如說定義化契約或是說那個消費法第十一條的什麼就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7694.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7722.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
因記載不得記載事項那我要強調就是說定型化契約有定型化契約處理的方式事實上不用任何法律規定行政院其實也公佈數十個上百個定型化契約範本這幾乎沒有一個是有法律源頭的金管會本身也有相當一些範本所以透過這些範本透過消化法機制某程度可以處理一些那除此之外根據信貸的部分有些是不當推銷別人的信用那我們不否認這可能是問題但它根本在於說這個借錢人是不是需要考慮一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7724.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7738.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
借款人本身的比如說適當性是不是有做適當的一些資訊揭露那另外一個大家可能討論比較多是不當催收的問題但不當催收如果涉及真的有非法行為那原本就有刑法的機制可以處理那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7739.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7761.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
不是到違法的程度到底哪些是那種比如說Best Practice那我想回歸的重點就是說針對借貸這個專業的規範其實現在看起來它並沒有很明顯很多審慎規範的需求大部分其實還在行為規範面上面我們現在觀察到的問題所以在這個基礎上我想要提的問題就是說就算訂專法到底能夠解決多少問題是不是訂了就不會有這個事情那反過來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7762.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7781.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
從金管會的角度其實現在透過經銷保的方式透過修訂資保事實上某程度可以大幅取決就是解決很多我們現在不管是不公平條款透過行為官方的方式去限制它的比如說利率啊資訊揭露對客戶的適當性的判斷甚至公平交易我覺得可以圖弄一個適當的法律基礎那在這個基礎上 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7783.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7804.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
也許跟剛剛有些委員的意見不同但是我個人是覺得在這個基礎上我們先看清楚市場到底在幹嘛再一步一步來觀察我們需不需要更大規模的擴大法律規範的力道我覺得這個在立法社策略上是一個比較值得思考的方向以免有掛一漏萬最後回到一個主要宏觀的問題我有參考一下民間版 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7805.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7825.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是融資法的討案但是我想借貸這個活動其實有很廣泛性有幾個名字長得很像但是其實概念不一樣的概念我們傳統講借貸其實是借錢是loan但是放售性跟融資其實並不限於借貸比如說融資性租賃剛剛汪汪有提到就是假買賣真借款但它也有可能真的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7826.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7851.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
借錢來買東西最後租賃這種叫融資性租賃然後廣義而言為什麼當鋪要排除雖然我們有當鋪業法但為什麼如果當鋪就是融資業為什麼不應該歸金管會管然後傳統的合會算不算會不會進入這個融資的打擊範圍事實上就是因為有各種不同融資管道甚至有包括一些是個人借貸有些就是有錢有錢家族專門負責借給鄰居也說不定那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7852.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7873.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
總統宏觀而言我們應該更就是立法上或是說政策上需要做更多的規範影響評估比如說我們有了不管任何的法律規範對普惠金融有什麼影響我們現在想的是詐騙但是會不會有真的需要借到錢的人沒辦法從現在看起來可能不黑不白的融資公司借到錢最後反而真的去低價錢莊借這樣對我們的社會是不是好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7874.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7900.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
還有對特定族群 比如說BMPL很明顯的大概只有30歲以下的會用我們大家想像60歲以上用BMPL這大概可信性不高這些我想都需要做一些更廣泛性的規範影響評估如果要制定專法的話我個人是建議我們需要有更廣泛性市場不光只針對詐騙或一些不良行為需要針對整體的借貸市場對經濟的影響來做更審慎的評估以上是一些意見 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7904.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7910.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好 謝謝陳教授的發言下一位請古律師發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7926.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7950.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
主席委員還有各位來賓大家好我是古祥宜律師我雖然是律師但是我今天發言的主軸會跟剛剛有幾位學者我前一位陳教授或者跟學者會比較接近我要談的主題比較是在立法的一些策略上的一些思考立法技術的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7962.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7975.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
剛剛總結剛剛在講融資公司現行的實務爭議我大概可以把它歸納成兩點一個是有關信用的過度擴張那一個是融資公司相關的消費爭議那信用過度擴張剛剛大家提了很多的包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7976.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8001.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
提供的這個誘導性的融資透過不當的一個宣傳那使得過度的超代的放款亂象那這種放款亂象呢造成了年輕人的悲哉以債養債衍生的社會問題那另外在消費爭議上也包括利息的違約金過高那有一些隱藏性的費用或者資訊揭露不足那包括說消費者他不知道說他要簽他要支付高額的手續費或者簽了共牌本表 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8003.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8016.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那甚至有詐騙集團來跟融資公司的業務員勾結所以我在看整個我們的立法的背景其實是要處理這樣的一個爭議問題那接下來就是說那我們要怎麼在立法那立法上有所謂的我們要如何納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8018.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8043.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那我也呼籲一下剛剛這個淡江的這個聶教授所說的我們看國外的法制如果我們超一半那另外我們再基於說大家都是好意的出發為了這個比如說消費者的保護你再增加了他的一些規管但是可能他的後果是非常的嚴重所以在立法的話我們應該要更周延的去思考不同的面向那基本上我是肯定說我們現階段先用 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8045.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8068.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
公告的方式我們把它納入金融消費者保護法所定的金融服務業就是現在金管會在推的那長期上我覺得立專法這個是可以來推動也可以來思考的只是說我們在立專法的時候我們要考慮很多的面向因為畢竟融資公司這個融資行為的太陽是一個很複雜的那到底如果我們要立一個法它必須含括哪些融資的太陽剛剛也講了銷金跟契金的性質上是有差異的 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8072.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8096.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那另外我看這個法案立委的版本也都會提到其實要把P2P的這個金融中介放進去但是如果要再把這部分放進去那也很複雜因為畢竟P2P它是一個金融中介的一個業者你所要歸管它現在它也自己去成立的一個工會它的歸管的重點是完全不一樣的那因為你要歸管說它金手的話那它的這個金手的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8097.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8113.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
精油要怎麼保管而不是他自己在放蛋那這個在法律上的技術如何把不同的太陽第一個應該考慮我們是不是要把它放進同一個法律那放進同一個法律的話你又要怎麼樣把它區別不同的特性來做不同的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8114.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8128.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
另外在立專法的話我們還要考慮到說剛剛也提了會不會壓抑了一些使得本來在檯面上可以借到錢的話它變成更地下化了反而造成其他的問題或者甚至損及了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8129.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8159.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
基本上我們對普惠金融的需求這是納管以後所帶來的衝擊那另外在監理架構上剛剛也提到的有所謂監理量能的問題那我這邊要特別強調其實所謂的行業納管它用哪種強度的納管其實法律上它可能包括是採一個特許的方式就嚴格的一個核准制或者一個許可制或者一個登記制或者只是要求說業者你必須加入工會就是所謂的用自律來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8160.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8181.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那這邊我覺得用不同的方式都是可以思考的那也提到說剛剛有提到融資公司它本身它不是收受存款的業務所以它的重點應該是在行業行為面的管理而不是去拉高這個行業的門檻使得這個行業要進入的困難那它進入的話你要鼓勵它進入但是進入的話你要管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8182.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8193.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那另外還有很多的包括說我們今天自然人以後自然人他如果從事的放款業務我們在我們的法律上我們要如何把它定性那我們這個執照呢有沒有更新的問題以及罰則的問題這都是在立法的時候應該思考的面向那我們回過頭來看當鋪業啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8200.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8221.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
其實我們大家去想想看其實我們是有當鋪業法的當鋪業法它也是一個融資那今天在講過去當鋪業法怎麼管那如果我們今天立了一個法律跟當鋪業法的關係是什麼監理嚴格程度的差別是什麼那我先說當鋪業法其實大家看法規它主管機關其實是中央的內政部那地方的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8223.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8230.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
地方為地方的市政府那業者他是減負申請書來向地方的這個當地主管機關來申請酬赦 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8232.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8258.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那大家會講到國外制度那我看今天大概只有我去整理這個國外制度那我剛剛呼應了說如果我們超國外超一半是很辛苦的那我們講了很多日本的制度但是事實上我們看國外制度你會先區分其實國外在考慮融資公司的納管他第一個大部分都只針對小金來管好像這個英國啊歐盟這是針對小金的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8259.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8280.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
也不一定是有金融主管機關那像日本日本它其實是一個事前登記的一個制度日本香港都不是有金融主管機關因為如果日本的話金融是金融廳嘛那日本不是那其他因為今天不會再仔細講那大概不同國家有不同的一個規範那大部分都是會採這個登記制比較少是採嚴格的許可制 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8284.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8302.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那比如說日本的話 那我們日本說貸金業法那它也是 它是跟誰 這邊它才它包括 應該規範的範圍 規範範圍它有做法律一個定義那包括進行金錢借貸或者仲借的金錢借貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8302.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8325.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
看得出來日本它規範的範圍雖然是寬的但是它對這個市場的准入呢它其實是比較便捷的它是用一個註冊登記的方式那誰可以來註冊呢是包括公司及個人的商號都可以那它向誰註冊呢其實地方如果是在地方營業的話你是向這個地方的這個類似我們的市政府啦就是它的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8326.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8347.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
區道省 這裡我們舉了一個例子 比如說他是跟大阪跟大阪去申請 地方行政首長申請那如果跨的話 他是向財務省 關東財務局那他是一個有每三年更新的部分所以今天跟我們講日本的行為規範我們要看說日本他到底是用什麼樣一個監理制度我覺得可能要把這個面向拉高一起來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8349.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8362.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以這看得到日本他目前大概最新的資料到2025年的話登記的業者在1000多家那如果是像財務局中央登記的是256個那另外他有一些行為規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8365.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8394.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
因為今天時間比較趕那我要回應這個問題我覺得立專法的目的它其實是在解決信用過度擴張以及消費爭議的問題但是在解決這個問題的前提下我們要同時來考量你是避免立法的不當來扼殺民間的這個生機因為畢竟剛剛也提了很多包括今天融資公司的行為除了這個一般的消費金融它包括企業的這個金融部分那現在很多的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8395.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8421.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
包括現在其實很多我遇到一些案子現在買的這個房子尤其買預收屋現在歷齡交務的時候交易交務的時候現在因為銀行去緊縮了房貸他借不到錢了他突然借不到錢了那他該要怎麼處理那這個如何在管制的時候也能夠立法能夠兼顧這個民間的這個經濟發展我覺得也是很重要的所以立法的討論應該要更細緻來力求周全那以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8424.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8427.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好 下一位請李坤成委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8439.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8456.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
謝謝主席那謝謝今天初列席的專家學者還有我們的機關代表那今天我們這個公聽會是這個農事公司法的討論那這其實可以追溯到這個2023年網路爆紅的這個動畫影片三道猴子的一生講述年輕人透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8456.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8479.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
融資租賃公司所推出的這個先買後付的服務無卡分期付款購車最後無力償還以債養債的杯葛那在2023年年底呢逢甲大學也爆出了近百名學生的檢入無卡分期的詐騙案那這一類新興借貸模式呢是由不肖業者跟融資租賃公司簽約提供呢先買後付的服務慫恿消費者以無卡分期來購買車輛3C等產品衍生諸多爭議亂象那其實在去年跟今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8485.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8499.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
經管會其實也對我來做專案報告過那本席先提出一些制度面的漏洞那其實剛剛專家學者也大部分都提過了第一個就是說公司法第15條的漏洞那這樣子呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8500.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8514.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
公司法第15條禁止非銀行業者從事無擔保放款但是融資業者利用假擔保品的名目規避規定那實質上是高利放款那第二個呢融資公司沒有納入聯合徵信的體系然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8518.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8535.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
導致借款人多頭借貸也沒有辦法被金融體系即時辨識與管控造成債務人陷入以債養債的惡性循環第三 沒有專法來管理融資公司運作還有代辦業務所以今天我們要討論融資公司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8536.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8557.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
那其實監察院也注意到這個問題了所以在今年的四月份監察院有糾正財政部不過監察院糾正財政部主要是說公股銀行以低於民銀行的利率大量增加放緩給融資租賃公司那成為輿論質疑說融資租賃公司利差過大的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8557.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8583.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那這是糾正的主要原因但是呢監察院提到說今年來融資註定業者以先買後付中古車貸款等融資方式引起國人購買各類型的商品那也造成說大量年輕人甚至學生以此類的模式進行消費那除了引起財務問題之外呢產生過度消費的疑慮所以呢監察院也要求了行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8584.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8602.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
確實評估訂定融資租賃公司的專法還有指定業務機關的可行性那其實金管會也算是有正面的回應那這個從這個主委的談話來提到說這個會透過這個金融消費者保護法就是金保法 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8603.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8619.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
分三階段的納管這個融資租賃公司最快是在8月底上路第一階段是4家上市櫃的公司然後第二階段是國營轉投資的14家租賃公司第三階段是所有租賃公會的會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8621.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8646.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那但是呢這也會造成一些原因就是說如果你是用這個金保法來講的話其實剛剛先進也都提過金保法當時的這個產生的原因是因為衍生性金融商品的購買糾紛那如果說你要讓他來這個解決目前這個融資租賃的一些相關的一些爭議的話那恐怕這個是這個沒有這個真正針對這個藥方 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8648.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8665.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以金寶法或許可以作為暫時過渡的一個措施但是絕對不是長久之計長久之計本席還是認為說應該要制定專法但專法要怎麼樣制定我想專家學者也有提出非常寶貴的一些建議那我也再提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8668.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8695.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
監察院他也提到如果是按照目前金管會所提出來這個三階段的這個納管那有可能這個會造成說這個有相同就是規模比較小的這些融資租賃公司他們承作融資業務屬性相近但是呢他並沒有納管造成相同業務那相同風險具有不同監理的情況那所以呢是不是應該要有這一個相關的配套措施那本席也認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8697.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8713.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
目前有一些造成一些爭議性的一些原因在此那是不是有一些可以及時先來做的呢第一個就是說是不是先建立一個融資公司的聯合爭議性的一個系統然後避免說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8715.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8743.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
借款人其實已經有借貸了但是呢這個租賃公司他也沒有去查那造成說這個債務人他變成以債養債那是不是可以先建立一個聯合的一個徵信的系統那第二個呢那是不是我們要透過這個融資透明申報制度然後明確揭示借貸利率的手續費然後禁止變相的高額代辦費的剝削然後第三呢那是不是我們要補強公司法的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8744.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8760.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
避免假買賣增借貸的一個漏洞那本席也是建議說這個金保法它雖然是這個在目前為止是專法出來之前的一個過渡的一個時期但是呢畢竟如果還是要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8762.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8782.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
長治久安來解決這相關的問題還是以立專法為優先那至於要怎麼立 怎麼樣的完善我相信透過今天的公聽會這個金管會應該會有更多一些啟示那以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝李委員的發言現在請李燕秀委員發言 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8791.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8810.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
感謝昭偉我要再次跟在現場說產官學界感謝大家這個公聽會也特別感謝昭偉今天舉辦這樣的公聽會事實上在金管會在4月底4月23號已經針對於12家租賃公司未來適用金保法第三條第一項金融服務業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8811.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8814.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
未來無論是應收賬款還有包括收買分期付款的買賣或相關的融資性的業務都是用金保法的規定我們也預計在八月底九月最慢的九月底消費者跟十二家融資公司進行業務往來未來都有機會獲得更充分的保障這是我們金管會的一小步但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8835.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8849.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
這確是我們金融消費業者的保護對於消費者的保護 落實我們普惠金融很重要的一步 一大步我們目前台灣有超過8000多家業者從事應收賬款的買賣包括分期付款買賣 或者是具類似融資性業務相關的業務我們也期待未來金管會 未來能夠擴大金保法適用業者的數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8860.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8863.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
因為這一次你們分三個層次只有12家未來提供消費者未來可以適用擴大服務的相關的一些業者那至於未來是不是要訂定專法對於整個租賃業的樣態進行規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8876.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8885.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
我了解的是我們目前金管會會委託評估研究甚至會累積監理的經驗採取雙軌並行的方式來進行所以除了委託銀行公會針對專法進行研究評估報告外我們也會持續累積監理的經驗作為未來專法的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8896.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8921.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
在這邊我非常肯定彭主委跟包括整個經管會對於無論是跟產官學界的溝通還有跟這個工會的溝通也都非常充分讓我們這一次在訂定經保法的過程當中其實我們的時程掌握得非常的順利未來我們也希望經管會在制定專法的過程當中可以多傾聽銀行業者包括租賃業者消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8925.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8930.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
學界的聲音這四大塊的聲音特別是從事營收賬款的買賣還有包括分期付款買賣還有包括具類似融資業務的樣態我們大家都知道其實非常非常的多八千多家的業者服務的樣態其實非常非常的廣泛特別是業者的經營方式有時候時常跟著大環境的變化時常在轉變 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8950.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8963.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
所以又有超過8000多家的業者未來如何用一部專法來進行通案的管理恐怕需要有更多的規劃跟評估所以這絕對不是只有一場我們的公聽會未來我也期待金管會也好或者是產官學界大家可以多辦幾場不同的公聽會立法院當然也可以多辦可以廣納更多的意見來制定專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8978.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8983.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這樣未來八千多家業者相關業態的業者都進入納管我們的規範才有機會更完整所以在現階段我有三個期許跟盼望第一個就是金管會未來能擴大金保法的納管的範圍包括租賃公會的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8996.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9008.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
未來是不是都能夠納入監理讓我們的消費者可以有更多的保障對於主動願意納入金保法規範的租賃業者我覺得我上一次也提過金管會應該認證或公告告訴消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9012.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9027.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
他們有加入我們金寶法的規範他們是乖寶寶好學生我覺得這個對消費者也有一定的保障所以副主委在這邊點頭我覺得好寶寶乖學生有更多的保障是我們在金寶法規範的範圍我們就讓消費者知道有需求有需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9027.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9043.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
就應該盡量找他們這樣也會讓還沒有加入的業者更願意加入那第二點我的期望就是未來融資公司在乘坐個人金融業務的時候恐怕都會更謹慎那很多業務他們可能就不願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9044.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9066.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
意願不會那麼高 不願意做那我們更擔心的是會不會有一些消費者轉向地下金融的借貸反而地下金融的借貸特別在整個財務不太好的時候很多地下金融的借貸方式就會興起會不會有更多的金融的風暴跟風險這個恐怕是金管會要 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9067.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9094.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
告訴我們要怎麼預防這個是第二點我希望我提出來這三點你們都可以用書面的回應我那第三個對於首批納管的12家租賃業者我也期待大家可以用更健康的心態來看待金保法的監管有更明確的法律規範不僅也可以鼓勵公司內部加強內控的機制更可以洗刷外界就是一竿子打翻所有人的污名跟誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9096.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9117.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
創造未來創造業者消費者跟政府的三贏是我這三點我覺得我們應該想辦法去做的那我這三點是不是也可以拜託金管會告訴我未來我們怎麼預防那我們怎麼樣加強那做得好的或者是在金管會納管的我們是不是要讓外界知道那怎麼樣防避有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9118.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9139.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
轉到地下去做地下的這個借貸那你們怎麼去做這些房幣因為有一些很就是有一些他們可能不願意做那未來銀行業要不要做那你們會不會鼓勵做他們不願意做的話那銀行業是不是要協助做有這些需求恐怕都是我希望你們可以回復我的地方謝謝好 謝謝李委員的發言下一位請 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9147.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9149.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
云蒙祥教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9161.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9183.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
主席以及各位大家好,那以下就受邀來參加融資公司法工聽會所以以下就針對於今天的這個設定的提綱跟相關議題來做幾個簡單的報告跟分享那我的報告大概是這邊,那因為報告比較多所以我想應該不太有時間完整的把它說明白但是盡量把剛剛所收集到的一些專家學者的議題以及我們會關注到的議題簡單跟各位做相關的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9184.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9199.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那第一個是為什麼會有融資公司法的相關出現其實代表的就是我們需要有一定的族群他可能需要資金可是在既有的這個金融體系裡面可能沒有辦法能夠取得所以從我們在當時97年那個時候在立法院做的這個評估報告裡面來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9200.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9218.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
來對照一下我們目前現在可能產生出來的融資公司的亂象大概好像有點不太一樣因為報告一開始就開宗明義針對於中小企業等這些企業的部分應該要去做什麼樣資金上面的融通那當時在公司法15條相關的一個規定所以那個時候為了解開公司法15條的相關限制所以那時候會有融資公司法相關的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9219.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9237.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以他跟現在113年目前在立法院所看到的版本呢可能在時空背景上就有點不太一樣的地方那第一個問題就不幸要問大家請問那個時空背景所產生出來的一些立法的那個我們對於那個法規的那個適用上面的溝通跟那個容溝啊那個鴻溝啊有沒有已經產生解決的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9238.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9256.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
所以我們到底是要以這一個中小企業來做我們要去做融資公司融資對象還是個人這是第一個我們必須要處理到的事因為日本的貸金業法它同時包括兩個可是兩個的規定不太相同所以這一點事實上可能要把它做分開的一個地方這是第一個跟各位解惑的地方所以這是我們當時所看到的版本的一個解答 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9256.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9272.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那這個部分我就先跳過去因為這個涉及到的是跟金融科技相關的一些議題跟內容上那這個部分在日本的貸金業我的這個報告裡面的後半部有去做了一些相關的規定那這個我就把它先暫時的先做這個跳過那另外一個部分是在資金的一個引導上我們必須要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9274.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9300.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
盤整一下我們目前先要有資金的部分所以以正規金融的銀正寶來說它有資金上面融資的地方可是我們還有一個底層金融的儲蓄物資社跟所謂的信用合作社它還是可以去做相關資金的提供所以如果能夠引導部分的融資公司所服務的對象能夠回到我們既有底層金融體系裡面的金融的引導來做處理時這也是必須要去思考到的地方因為既有的工具我們先能做 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9300.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9321.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
然後做到能夠讓我們的消費者的權益能夠獲得保障時接下來才是我們在看到未來在專法上是不是能夠把沒有去涵蓋到的漏洞去把它補足我覺得這是一個立法過程中可能大家可能要去思考到的點OK那以下就是進入第二點就是我們在看到日本貸金業法的相關改正的背景所以我們把紅色的字跟藍色的字都去做了mark這個大概是幾個我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9323.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9341.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
參考日本相關規定時他必須要做的地方所以包含高利率過度貸款跟相關的這個容易啊這個拿到相關的這個貸款這個款項所以他忽略那個利息相關的能力以及這款人的缺乏金融知識和計劃我這邊必須要以學者的身份提出在日本的金融的歷年來改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9342.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9359.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
他都會跟金融教育是非常銜接在一起的所以他在每一個像自律組織相關的公司都得要做金融教育上面的提醒所以我剛後半部就整理了一下他是怎麼提醒在我們的金融消費者要如何的去適用這個貸金業法相關的規定所以我想這個是這樣來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9360.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9381.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
OK那我想這邊的內容我就整理給大家所以這是簡單的幾個圖在年收入的幾分之幾哪一些是受到限制例外可以不受限制的範圍是什麼該怎麼樣去做還款以及該怎麼樣去做相關信用的制度所以剛剛有非常多的現金去提到是不是應該要去嫁接目前在金融機構所使用的信用平等或相關的一個信用徵信制度沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9381.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9408.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
但問題是如果他能夠嫁接到我們既有的信用制度時各位要回想到一個問題如果他能夠在我們的信用制度裡面可以在金融機構借到款項他何必去找這些款項來借呢這是一個問題點嘛所以這個既有的信用制度是來幫助我們去了解到他應該是應該什麼樣子的一個內容以避免他在金融機構跟在非金融機構的時候可能會有不同的這個表現所以我們在嫁接相關制度時應該是提供一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9409.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9427.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那至於上下限的這個規定呢事實上來講是可以經過討論的因為如果沒有這些相關的這個制度去作為進行這些人可能在既有金融體制拿不到錢的時候他應該怎麼辦這也是我們必須要在這邊做思考的一個相關的點所以在日本貸金業法相關的規定呢那他會有准入條件的嚴格啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9428.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9449.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
自立規範的要求以及相關禁止行為的一些內容我想這邊就整理給大家包含到利率上面的限制還款的限制跟相關的處理我想我都盡量的把相關的資料提供給各位專家還有我們的主管機關去供參考這個部分在後半部做制定時大家可以去思考到的地方那再來另外一個部分是如果從貸金業法相關的規定上面來說其實他們是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9450.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9468.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
做紫色的字叫做補充融資需求的內容所以其實他們的制度很簡單他不是做主要的放款的這個業務他是在補充所以這一塊就必須要跟我們剛剛所說的你必須去盤點目前在我國正規金融跟其他的底層金融上到底哪一些人是應該把事實的引到那邊去的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9469.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9485.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以第二部分大概就針對於我們的日本的代金業有關相關的規定去做了幾個事情那因為實用上面的不足我提供三點這個業法上面規範是以日本來說第一個業務的這個萎縮量非常大所以會造成他們的業者呢在後半部的經營呢可能會遇到了一些這個麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9487.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9512.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那第二個部分呢他們越來越發現到年輕的族群會是使用非常多比較科技的東西所以他們也轉往了科技的東西來做相關的這個貸款但是也不能夠完整的從那個地方去了解到他們的整個信用跟相關的狀況所以那一塊的使用上也會產生出一些問題第三個就是後繼者那代表就是說沒有人願意要去承接這個目前既有的這些組織後續該怎麼去進行的事這個是在日本呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9512.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9534.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
我們匯整了在大概他們的統計資料裡面所看到的這些事情那我想因為時間上面的因素就不去做任何的就是細部了所以這個在消費者的款項上跟一些處理上大概都會遇到的這些麻煩點那這個也是未來如果要訂定專法時大家可能要去了解到的一些基本的問題否則這個時候我們這個已經日本有相關的一些經驗上該怎麼去做的進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9534.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9554.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那最後一個部分是在詐欺的部分我想沒有一個法規的訂定可以直接把所有的這個詐欺跟相關的不法行為一併的都掃蕩所以我們在制定相關專法時是不是我們應該要可能冷靜一下把相關的一些不法行為比如說這個所謂的詐欺等行為啦或者是欺騙的行為等等應該是要把它脫鉤來作為相關的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9557.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9571.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這個時候不妨可以在我們目前既有的紮卸外防制條例的相關的一些規定直接去做一些配合的一些配套這樣子或許在我們針對一些比較我們需要保護到的特殊的金融行為上能夠去達到我們的要求而不是可能在 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9572.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9593.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
未來的專法上去討論到說這個行為在專法上應該要去訂定什麼樣子的法規那這個時候就會回到我們在民國90年那時候公司法修法開啟的金融六法修法以前在不同的專法上在不同的型度上會有不同的處理點時這個時候會在規範的監理強度上會產生很大的麻煩所以這個是跟各位去報告的一些事那目前的監理措施我大概彙整了 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9594.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9609.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
整個監理的狀況之下跟專法跟目前金保法所納管的方式跟公眾的方式我大概提供幾個建議那提供建議有三第一個因為目前我們在經濟部相關的資料上應該可以知道在公司把第15條裡面所借貸的這個在章程上有規定的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9609.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9628.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
事實上是可以做一些資料上面的統計所以應該是引導做量能上面的登錄跟相關的捨廢來看一下目前有多少公司去從事這些事情然後呢再來依照我們目前現在專法跟經保法上面所沒有規範的鴻溝去針對於相關的部分去作為處理那第二個經保法的設立是有它的必要性因為按照第三條第一項的規定經貿主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9629.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9646.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
指定的金融服務業他納入到金保法所規定時包含到我們的所有的KYC跟說明義務都必須要按照金保法來所以在執法上去細膩化我們今天要去做的事情這個部分是有必要性的因為如果這些人發生這件事對不起請主席再給我三四秒抱歉我把這邊講完 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9646.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9667.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
然後呢這個部分才可以在紛爭解決上產生給他一定的幫助否則這些人可能在我們在立專法的過程之中他依然沒有辦法取得我們評議中心或者是我們既有準司法體系相關的幫助所以這一點來講事實上是有非常非常大的一個相關的必要性那最後呢最後的建議就是因為目前還在專法的力挺之中該怎麼樣去把這個業去做規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9668.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9695.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
不妨參考我們之前在107年所努力的虛擬通貨交易所自立公約的方式以自律的方式先行再輔導以成立公會的方式然後再透過主管機關的參與把相關規定OK之後那透過了相關自律規端的一個進行時最後再透過專法的部分去做處理那金寶法的一些事實的納入可以去解決目前現在消費者產生出來的爭議那雙方做搭配的情況之下目前我覺得這是一個比較可行的方法恭喜一再用大家的時間以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9699.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9705.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 謝謝民船的林教授下一位請台大的葉教授請 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9718.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9725.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
主席在座各位長官 大家好我今天當然是針對因為個人背景的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9730.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9750.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
因為個人背景的因素過去在金融業也曾經在國際組織服務那現在也在做一些融資方面的這個案例那所以我想跟各位分享一下那當然剛剛其實很多人都提到了三道猴子但是事實上我們也不要忘記絆澤指數其實應該是說不要忘記絆澤指數他爸爸 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9755.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9775.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
因為借不到錢所以導致半折指數後來要去復籌對不對但是重點是在於說三道猴子代表的是一個銷金的案例那半折指數代表的是一個契金的案例那這個兩個東西可不可以把它合在一起來思考那我覺得對於這個剛剛其實有很多前輩都已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9776.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9800.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
包括了很多鉅細靡遺的東西那對於一個在我在當學生的時候就已經出現了一個議題那我現在已經快退休了他現在還沒有決定那我們面對這種議題的話我自己本人也必須要非常的謙虛非常的謙遜所以在這裡我只是提供一些我自己研究的一些心得來跟各位來做一些分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9800.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9818.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那其實我自己最近在做一些融資租賃業的案例那當然也有契金跟小金舉個例來說因為資訊的關係我想我們不能揭露這些資訊但是你可以看到儘管剛才有很多的朋友都已經說到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9819.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9839.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
這個被害的案例可是其實有很多公司在接受了這個這個融資租賃了之後比如說他的營業利率在2014年營業利率跟資產報酬率都活過來了OK那但是我也要跟各位說也有不成功的案例所以同樣的道理銷金的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9840.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9869.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
也有成功的案例可是事實上我也知道有一些比如說社會系的老師曾經做過一些研究他收集了四五百個這個曾經被詐騙的這些案例但是我們必須要說一件事情就是我們在考慮政策或者是考慮這個甚至這個政策如何擬定法律的時候我們其實必須要把成功跟失敗的案例都納入考慮否則的話我們都只是怎麼樣只是去想壞的而不是去想好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9869.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9893.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我舉個例子來說 跟這個可能沒有關係 但值得參考歐盟 剛剛其實也有律師提到了歐盟歐盟有最先進的AI法律 但是沒有最先進的AI資料庫歐盟有最先進的GDPR 但是卻沒有這些非常先進的AI公司或者是非常先進的資料庫所以如果假設我們把監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9894.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9912.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
那個放在第一位而不是把市場放在第一位的話那我們基本上就等於是在這個市場還沒有甚至還沒有出現的時候就把這個市場給打壓掉了那所以我個人的想法是有時候可能有人說摸著石頭過河但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9913.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9931.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
當你有這個市場有做出來的時候會有成功的案例會有失敗的案例當你把成功的案例跟失敗的案例合起來一起看的時候你才能得出一個比較中性不偏或者是我們用統計學的講法來說不偏的一個思維模式來思考這些案例到底該 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9932.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9957.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
怎麼去處理所以說其實舉個例來說剛剛台灣的中小企業也有很多事各位也都知道我們去對他做問卷研究的時候他其實是悶聲發大財台灣的企業都是這樣的特色當他有事的時候他會講得很大聲當他沒事的時候他就怎麼樣他就繼續努力去賺錢所以你要對他做訪談問卷非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9959.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9975.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
但是我們還是不能忘記一件事情就是契金有成功的案例,銷金有失敗的案例但是這些案例我們都必須要綜合考量半澤直樹跟三道猴子事實上都是同樣的重要那尤其是我自己本身也是公園出身 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9976.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9992.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
有很多朋友講說我們要訂立很多很多法規啊幹嘛的但是據我自己所了解我們的金管會我們的中央銀行我們的財政部最重要的一個任務就是要防範系統性的金融風險那系統性的金融風險這件事情非常非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9992.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10018.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那那個當然如果假設行有餘力其實事實上我們的公務體系都蠻麻煩的以前我在陸委會上班的時候我禮拜一禮拜一到禮拜天我都在工作那我的處長問我說你怎麼禮拜天還來那我就看著他我不知道該怎麼說對不對因為你我才會來啊對不對所以那個我們其實不只是要想到電力法律的效果我們還要想到我們真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10019.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10036.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
要有在做很多事情的時候要有餘裕我們才能夠就是很專注的去注意我們的最重要的事情就好像現在很多人剛才談到金融消費者保護法各位都知道那是從美國的金融海嘯 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10037.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10058.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所衍生過來的它其實並不是一個新的並不是一個舊的法律它其實非常的新它還有很多容納的空間即便各位都知道最近美國發生了一些對於這些東西甚至監管這些東西發生了一些態度上的變化但是我們這裡的話其實剛才有很多朋友也講了它還有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10061.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10074.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
修正或容納的空間這個為什麼我們不把它來試試看呢剛才其實也有長官也有講到我們立這個專法的最主要的目標是什麼那我想今天的話因為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10076.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10102.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
很多東西已經繼續迷移了所以我反而想要跳脫開來思考一下就跟剛剛有些老師一樣大框架的一些東西我們是要避免剝削嘛那避免剝削其實事實上如果假設各位知道在美國發生金融海嘯之後有非常多發生非常多跟我們類似的案例比如說你在借貸的時候你不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10104.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10129.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
你可以自述所得你不需要任何文件就可以借到大筆的錢這種事情並不是在台灣才有的在美國的話一樣層出不窮那當然美國後來就非常限縮他的所謂的信用評比個人的這個信用指數這個點數這些事情來預防這個東西那這個東西是不是要訂專法呢當然我們就留下一個問號那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10130.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10153.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們訂這個法律是為了要兼顧企經嗎?中小企業的發展嗎?事實上這個問題就很重要,但是好像跟我們現在談的專法也不一定有關係。為什麼?因為有一個人,大家都知道,這個諾貝爾獎得主,他說其實美國會經濟大蕭條不是因為發生了股災,而是因為金融中介的功能喪失。 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10153.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10170.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那金融中介的功能喪失就使得中小企業沒有辦法得到融資那當然這個中小企業得到融資這件事情不只是銀行的問題也包括了很多其他的管道那同樣的就跟我剛才所講的我們必須要很慎重的思考一件事情這個監管 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10172.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10199.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不能夠把市場給扼殺掉OK這個是很重要的另外一個就是金融穩定那金融穩定當然我想這個在座的長官都非常清楚不過我只是舉一個可能大家現在還都沒有舉到的例子給各位參考大家都知道美國聯準會有一條叫聯邦準分法第13條他把所有的金融穩定他這一條的內容幾乎跟我們的央行法一樣長那但是無論如何他用一條就 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10200.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10215.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
解決了金融穩定這件事情那是不是一定要訂專法呢或者是一部法律呢其實事實上有些事情或許我們在一個法律既有的法律裡面加入一些條文或許就可以解決那以上報告 謝謝謝謝葉教授的發言最後為我們請本院的鍾嘉賓委員請發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10233.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10260.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝主席今天的公聽會非常感謝趙偉的安排讓我們對這麼重要的民生課題邀請各界的學者專家也提供了非常精闢的見解供我們未來在修法的時候參考那今天呢我還是要來回顧一下儘管各位專家學者的分析非常到位但是呢其他的消費大眾或民眾是否能夠了解問題的嚴格為什麼會是今天這個樣子多位學者專家提到了銷金跟契金 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10262.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10287.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
融資租賃它其實有它發展的緣起後面變成債騙的冤首到底什麼原因這是我在去年7月23號針對詐騙層出不窮所寫的簡報我發現今天還是可以用來說明到底問題出在哪裡我們如何對症下藥請看下一頁其實結合融資公司的不當銷售大家常提到年輕人被無卡分期所消費所詐騙了怎麼說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10289.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10310.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
照說我們年輕人的消費信用卡買個東西信用卡設定分期六期十二期很常見那怎麼可以不用信用卡就可以來分期呢其實它這裡面它是把你的購買契約轉成了一個借貸契約你本來跟他買一組化妝品跟他買一個婦夫美容的課程服務結果呢你 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10311.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10339.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
信用卡你沒有信用卡你把一些個資交給他之後他用你的名義去辦你一個信用貸款然後呢你必須分期償付給這一個銷售公司但是實質上背債的是你背了另外一個出錢借你的人的債這就是我們典型的五卡分期當中以為是購買其實是欠債這是一個消費者不清楚的情況之下他被兩個行為混淆了到底是消費還是租賃還是那個還是借貸往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10340.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10367.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
接下來呢另外一個借貸轉租令受害者背了銀行信貸的債務還不知道那是怎麼情況呢我們講通常這個受害者他是要借錢但是信用不加銀行不借給他於是呢融資公司透過廣告找上了他告訴他說你的機車你拿來把我跟你購買使用權所以完全機車沒有過戶他那個用了20年的機車破破爛爛的剛剛有些人說只值3000塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10369.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10369.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
結果他說這個機車呢我跟你購買使用權我付你30萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10374.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10402.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
然後呢我把這個機車的使用權呢租給你你每個月要付我租金但是在這個情況之下受害者交了他的個人資料之後呢卻讓這個融資公司去跟銀行辦了一個信貸這個信貸的償還人是受害者可是他每個月以為他付機車的租金是付給了什麼付給了這個融資公司他巧妙的運用了其實他其實是一個借貸但是他用一個誤轉移成一個租賃的方式跟你收錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10403.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10424.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
但是我們把這個人換掉這是消費者我們要換掉一個企業一個營造廠他因為沒有辦法跟銀行取得大量的融資他沒辦法去購買工程機具因此他找了一個融資我們的租賃公司這個租賃公司跟他打一個合約說你這筆錢你去買了挖土機買了怪手買了起重機 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10425.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10435.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
薩斯車但是呢你設定之後設定給我那我用租賃的方式給你你每個月付我租金然後呢付完了這個就是你的了 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10436.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10461.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
有什麼不一樣 差在這個地方當時企業的時候他很清楚知道他的對象是一個融資公司他是因為借不到錢 他要買這個器具然後他用這樣的租賃方式把他的現金不足的部分解決了他並沒有欠銀行錢融資公司是用本票跟銀行取得融資之後借給他這個融資償還的風險是融資公司在承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10461.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10474.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
但是在剛才的宵禁的情況之下他是個資被融資公司拿去辦理信貸為什麼他辦辦不通這個融資公司辦辦得通這就是內神通怪鬼的問題但是負債負誰的債負這個銀行的債 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10477.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10505.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
所以我們都知道融資跟租賃其實這個行業早就有了因為無法融資該用租賃的方式解決企業他的融資的需求但是到了銷經之後他確立了一個詐騙的手法使得消費者背上了不明的債務這才是我們今天遇到的詐騙的問題往下看所以今天我們看到那時候我們提出來洗錢防治法有沒有融資性租賃規範進去了他要定期查核要指定事項他要法務部來管夠嗎不夠往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10506.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10532.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
現在顯然房產還說要有交易紀錄要保存交易紀錄出現了剛剛在銷經的融資租賃當中最常發現的是消費者根本不曉得自己欠了錢沒有看到租賃的合約也沒有看到什麼借貸的合約因為所有的公司所有的事情公司幫你解決了融資公司幫你解決 往下看所以後來我們看到了根據金融消費者保法第十條要錄音錄影取代了他沒有辦法出示這些契約但是這個夠不夠這個不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10534.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10557.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以我們今天要來立法或者來修法如果是要修金融消費者保護法就必須針對現在的詐騙行為針對新興的對銷金的手法予以規則予以克犯不然的話我們現在會誤打一個範圍如果我們另另專法那專法就是特許啊納管就是一個特許嘛那麼這種借貸的行為人類有文明以來有貨幣發明以來就在借貸 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10560.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10581.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
地下錢莊要不要納管單純的借貸要不要納管所以我們在發現既有的民法的各種的法律都有對民間的金錢借貸都有一些規範但是今天把借貸跟租賃巧妙的結合來應付企業的需求這樣的一個公司絕對不會規模小可能俗稱的薯條三兄弟它就規模很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10582.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10595.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這個時候要不要給他納入特許來管理這個主管機關要深思但是如果面對上千家打著類似跟薯條上東西類似的名號叫忠什麼的啦不是我的忠啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10596.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10624.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那這樣的公司他只是用他跟銀行去借信貸的這樣的一個手法來詐騙消費者讓他們以為手頭的周轉不靈你可以透過拿一個物件跟我做成立一個租賃關係之後呢我就可以幫你拿到一筆錢從中扣了高行的手續費然後呢你卻背下了不明銀行的債務這個時候到底要怎麼避免消費者受害我們要審慎的來思考精準的來立法才能打擊大家所痛惡的透過消費 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10625.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10630.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個租賃融資的方式被詐騙的這樣的一個惡果 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10635.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10660.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
謝謝這位委員的發言 包括委員會我們今天啊 公聽會這個所有登記的我們專家學者立委們發言全部發言結束我們現在按照原來的規劃我們就請相關的部會做回應 做回應我們首先請金管會的這個陳副主委 來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10668.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10685.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
是主席委員各位先進承蒙財委會召開本次的公聽會呢本會呢有三點的一個回應其實第一點其實對於我們這個問題我們是解決的目標方向是一致但是呢在手段有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10686.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10705.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
因為融資公司的爭議是最重點在於消費者的保護因為他沒有吸收存款所以重點是在放款的部分他並沒有所謂清償能力不足影響社會權益機構勢力而產生金融危機的問題所以是說因為吸收大眾資金的機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10706.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10727.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
如果它發生了清償能力不足或這些它會影響到存款人或整個市場所以必須列為特許的行業採高度監理而融資公司它沒有吸收大眾的資金所以在清償能力的時候是說重要但不是絕對的一個重點爭議在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10729.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10754.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
當的招攬為告知利率費率以及過度融資消費的保護的層面而呢國外對於我們不管是所謂他有一個法律或者法條的各部分的呢他也因為呢針對這種沒有收存款的貸放機構重點也是在於不要有過高的利率揭露收費透明禁止不當催收這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10755.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10783.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
第二点重点在于善战者求之于事不责于人所以我们反过来我们在讲善战者求之于事不责于法其实在这个地方不管是一个交叉活网各个法律的一个交错的一个保护或者是一个专法重点在于解决问题重点在于解决问题我国是否制定融资专法的一个讨论我们说我们在讨论其实超过30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10784.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10804.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
在这个地方的历史20多年的复杂的问题我们现在终于踏出了第一步而其实呢还有很多部分对于融资公司的范围界定监理的量能以及呢纳缓后对于整体市场不管是迄今消经市场的这个地方的这个冲击我们呢在这个地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10805.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10834.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我們真的需要做一個好好的一個評估而且目前為止我國並沒有寄存的專營放緩業務的公司我說因為公司法15條所以是說我們是不是真的要把他納入一個說給他一個執照讓有一些的所謂的非法的或者這些部分真正的說我給你一張執照就是做這個我們一個專營一個業這個是呢要一個思考而日本對於貸金業的一個管理喔這剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10835.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10836.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
金融主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10852.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10870.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
日本的一個時政剛剛也提到,在這個施行之後,其實對於放寬者他們的缺顏,不管是消費者或中小企業,取得資金的難度變高,所以某些的部分的確是轉向了一個所謂地下的一個行業。 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10871.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10888.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
第三點,所謂眾見無風,大巧不攻。也就是說,我們講真正的建樹,不是說我們要有一個法律,我們要有奪罪力,奪厲害,而是在一個所謂的修行跟巧思,我們如何透過法律、法條來處理這個問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10891.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10905.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以我們剛剛說過融資公司的爭議在消費者的一個保護而金保法就是處理金融消費爭議強化金融消費者而訂定的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10906.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10935.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
它是對於金融消費者保護的一個專法以金融保護法納管一定條件的融資註定公司在目前為止以法律位階最高此法授權明確而且得採罰還處分超到一千萬而且它能立即的適用所以比照監管嚴格的金融機構的標準所以對於金融保護金融消費者的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10936.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10951.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
是有進步而周到而跨境一大步而再來呢我們在今年4月23號已經預告將12家的大型的這個公司納入試用進寶法對於外界關切的適合度商品適合度 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10951.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10971.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
融資金融不得超過交易標的物價值利率揭露不得拒絕提前清償禁止不讓吹收處理爭議機制以納入金保法的授權修訂的重點當中所以是說在目前為止向目前為止各界對於授權執法內容若需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10972.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10995.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
強化細緻的意見其實我們都是要解決同一個問題在目前的解決方式目前的解決方式我們當然將來持續進行但目前的解決方式我也期待各界給我們更多更好的意見對於我們弱勢禁止剝削現在在受苦的這一些民眾我們給他最好的一個保護謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10998.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11000.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
商業發展署針對今天的議題做補充報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11029.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11043.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
之所以會融資公司產生這樣的課題大概就像剛剛學者專家們所提的因為民眾先買後戶或是中古車貸款中古的汽車或機車貸款引發種種這些爭議那這過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11050.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11068.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
融資公司扮演在中間這個中介的角色所以如果要適度的規範剛剛陳副主委儘管陳副主委已經提到就是消費金融消費者保護法適度來介入做管理然後再來觀察後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11071.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11095.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
這個保護還有沒有強化的地方我們也蠻贊成如果說這個後續未來如果有立法需要在公司登記制度上面比如說公司名稱的使用或是許可之後我們來配合辦理相關的登記那這些事務我們都會一起來配合辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11095.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11112.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那至於公司法因為在規範公司上面有20條針對決算書表申報的要求有針對這個股東申報的要求22條之一那這一些我們對 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11114.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11130.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
所有公司都一起一體來做相關的要求那這部分我們也會針對農事公司如果有相關需要做比較那個請他們要求他們來落實的部分我們都會一併配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11131.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11157.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
至於融資公司專法在訂定之前我們在針對消費者跟融資公司各案的糾紛當中需要做債務處理的部分我們也提供消費者申訴跟協助的案子根據我們過去協處的案子裡頭大概擔保債務的案件以汽車 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11158.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11174.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
做單跑品借貸為主那所以我們就針對這個中古汽車買賣定型化系列我們也提出了修正的案子希望說在這個透過定型化系列的要求預防這個假車貸真詐騙這些情況所以我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11177.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11192.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
如果有剛剛像鍾委員提到的這個企業經營者轉介貸款或融資機構這些資訊的揭露希望在這個交易過程當中能夠透過定型化企業來要求讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11193.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11222.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
提供企業經營者提供第三人貸款資訊揭露能夠更透明那這個案子目前在行政院消保處透過這個審議過程當中那未來中古汽車如果能夠順利來實施我們也會來繼續延伸檢討這個汽車買賣定型化企業是不是一定也一樣來做相同的要求所以我們大概做以上的配合補充報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11224.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11229.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好 謝謝經濟部長官的發言下一位請法務部的長官聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11240.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11262.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
主席各位委員還有與會的學者專家還有機關代表大家好有關於剛剛我們公聽會的部分各位委員還有學者專家所表示的意見到底是就目前因為我們的融資工資現在是除了銀行法銀行保險公司當部業者以外他現在來從事放款的這個業務這邊要納管因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11265.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11282.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
的融資方式呢對於借貸者有提供免保證人啊迅速撥款這些的服務那比照一般的銀行會比較寬鬆來預放款那針對這一部分剛剛學者專家提出一些必須要管控那這邊金管會呢在最近有 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11283.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11307.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
修了金保法還有紙法那這部分呢我們法務部也會提供法治的協助至於呢要不要制定專法因為這個涉及比如金管會跟經濟部對於整個業界這整個市場的整個判斷那對於他們最後的結論是說金保法的哪裡修法還要再需要再修法那我們也會協助他那至於如果制定專法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11307.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11316.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
如果金管會或是經濟部他們有提出相關的專法或其他的修法我們法務部一定會全力的協助他做法治上的協助謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11321.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11342.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好 我們今天中間都沒有休息 也進行了快要三個小時我想做一個結論 你要發言嗎給你三分鐘好不好 你再補充三分鐘就三分鐘好不好 因為我們時間就在哪裡 對 三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11345.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11358.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
針對官員跟一些專家的一些意見的回應第一點有關講到說契金是不是會借不到錢其實我們在銷金的部分個人的部分如果是有擔保的話以擔保的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11360.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11382.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
那當然公司來借錢也是一樣但是有關銷金的部分22個月薪水我們的條文第15條第三項不適用法人不適用法人來借錢不適用第二個有關利率的部分我們20%那法人的部分是不是要高一點這個可以討論公安版的話是20 30個人是20法人是30這個倒是可以討論第三個有學術專家說我們這個負責人資格比銀行還嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11389.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11408.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
他顯然沒有看清楚我們第六條的立法局寫得很清楚我們的這些法人的資格都是引用相關銀行法守的執法規抄他們的規定他銀行法本身沒有規定那執法規寫得很清楚我們看到執法規是一樣的第四個我要講的是說大家一直在講自律自律 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11409.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11428.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
如果沒有公會還不一定會自立縱使有公會現在跟融資公司有關的在38家在這個公會裡面有2000家這怎麼自立第五個我有講過了就是說12家現在12家說九成的市佔率今晚會的報告這樣寫千里告訴我你的依據是什麼你根本沒有資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11429.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11446.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
第六個我要講的就是說剛才學術專家或者官員大概都有提到說如果實施了專法會不會人民借不到錢地下錢莊更嚴重他說日本就是這樣抱歉我們相關團體跟日本每年都交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11447.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11467.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那我們在韓國日本台灣一直在交流一直連續的交流我們也問過這樣的問題他們貸金業法實施之後有這樣嗎沒有反而是銀行的借貸金額增加第七個剛才有人說日本的這個貸金業法是事前的申請登記沒有錯支援是這樣但是請不要忘記日本的貸金業法第六條 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11468.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11493.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
跟我們的規定一樣就是在一定的情況之下是可以拒絕登記的也就簡單講就是說你如果有暴利好債你如果有一些違反規定你是可以拒絕登記的所以這字眼叫做申請登記還是許可用語可以討論但是實質內容是一樣的另外一個點有人講說P2P是一個中介的概念沒有錯那但是我要問的是中介的概念難道 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11495.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11509.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
月收入的22倍還不過高嗎日本是三分之一的年薪就四個月而已只能信用貸款只能四個月我們是22個月最後一點我要講的是大家在講說要長期規劃然後好像是不是到底怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11510.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11529.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
如果要等到像當時候94年95年燒炭自殺全家燒炭自殺產生很多社會問題的時候才要立法那就可惜啦不要見到血才要立法我想不是這樣當時候的立法很快為什麼因為立法院要求立法院給我提出草案來所以我要我最後補充一兩句話我最後要講的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11531.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11559.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個部分要用行政的規定去介入但是我們沒有要扼殺這個經濟發展我們沒有扼殺氣經大家跳文好好看沒有這樣的道理但是我們要說的是這個問題我們透過拜會立法委員也好我們跟媒體的互動也好我們第一線互務也好這個問題涉問題已經很嚴重不處理不行我們的處理如果哪些地方條文不是很妥當或者立法委員不妥當都可以討論但是我覺得不立專法是不對的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11563.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11582.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好 謝謝喔這個要聽起來啦喔這個因為我們的立法過程這不是一個專法 新的法那麼各位律師同學知道這立法院要立一個新法除非這個新法是行政部門提出來的否則非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11586.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11602.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
佛說非常困難 這是事實所以我做一個小結現在看起來是行政部門不立這個法 目前到現在為止他們要強化金寶法 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11603.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11625.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那就是說我們就看金保法這一部分有什麼地方可以強化來滿足你們的需求滿足我們今天你說完全不能滿足那就沒有交集了我現在做一個結論就是說要立法我可以這麼講我可以下下禮拜我就排專法但結果進度是0 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11627.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11655.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
等於是騙自己騙大家 都沒有意義第二有個共識 起碼的共識就是你們這一部專法某種程度大部分行政部委要接受因為這是專法 新的法我要強調新的法如果你要改幾個字 舊的法改幾個字 比如說你的金寶法 現在的金寶法裡面我要改哪些部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11655.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11672.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
特別注重這個銷金的部分因為現在最嚴重的是銷金的企業金老實講也不是說不必了因為企業嘛企業被騙了企業怎麼樣的話它的承受能力比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11673.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11695.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
個人承受能力比較小我們想保護這個我相信各位偉大的律師們你們一直在做這個事情我真的非常敬佩就是就是在乎人因為這樣子被騙因為這樣子家破人亡因為這樣子這個很多人悲劇產生我們都想幫助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11697.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11721.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這個利益良善沒有人反對但是我剛說過了要這麼一個大步頭的一個修法立委們提出來的一個法要通過的困難度是非常高的這個要跟各位報告第一點第二點所以尋求跟官方的共識非常重要官方 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11722.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11747.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
常常在講說 這不一定要我老實講 我認為這個官方適度的介入而且往這個方向走 有沒有什麼不可以啊就我的態度 我今天願意排這個工地會你各位可以想啊 這個法已經提出多久了我今天願意排這個工地會就是某種程度我是認同的可是我要告訴各位殘酷的事實就是行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11748.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11774.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
不願意 你說那我就硬表決啊問題是每個委員都有這樣的公司嘛我們要打一個很大誤號啦我要打一個很大誤號所以是不是可以雖然我們的律師們不滿意但是能不能夠就現在來講我們在金寶寶這裡面能不能拿幾條可以把它強化的先改那幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11776.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11791.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
先改那幾條然後同時間我們再追求這個法給他修過這是我個人的一天的小結論今天排的我當然就希望說有機會還是要過那就看我們的金管會時間不要給我們等太久 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11799.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11819.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
因為畢竟還有兩年多了這一屆還有兩年多了還是有機會的不是沒有機會等到大家都有共識了我想這個就隨他取成到目前為止這個期限是很大的好不好我做這樣的結論不知道各位有沒有所謂補充的好沒有的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11830.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11853.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員在公聽會終結後10天內依出席者所提供的正分意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今天與會者所有寶貴的發言意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11854.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11882.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
作為未來修法的參考並會編成冊送交本院全體委員及今日主席出列席的提供建議的貴賓參閱如果各位貴賓還有其他書面意見或相關的資料也請盡速提供給我們將訂立本次的公聽會報告再一次感謝各位委員專家及政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11883.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11888.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
向機關代表的出席謝謝大家最後一點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11889.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11914.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我講了我希望兩照持續溝通了時間如何是我願意排如果各位等不及了你要找另外一個召委排我也沒有意見就請另外一個賴召委排願意排下禮拜就排我都沒有意見我只是告訴各位說現在這個情況排進度是0因為每個都有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11916.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11926.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
沒有共識 都不會有共識除了發明證以外要共識不容易的你們條文總共幾條啊條文總共幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11933.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11959.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
五十幾條的大部頭的法案這個就可以可想而知今天如果是行政部門提出來的那就不一樣了那就完全不一樣了這不是立法帶頭的問題是現實是如此我告訴各位就是因為要他們執行他們有他們很多的考量只是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11961.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11966.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
在我的認識裡面我們當鋪法都通過了為什麼這個法不能通過這個要請金光和我去思考一下當鋪法都可以修過了為什麼這個法不可以過 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11975.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11994.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我們要問這個問題當鋪法都可以過這個法為什麼不能過你們要給我們一個答案銀行法銀行法這個規矩的最小的當鋪法都通過了還卡在中間的融資公司法或是融資業法 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11996.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12016.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
為什麼你們的態度這麼的堅決反對我是不懂我是不懂老實講我是站在這些律師的一個角度看這個事情我們希望有進度我們希望進度我們也希望融資業法或者融資公司法也能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12018.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12043.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
有機會儘快的給他通過啦最少在這一屆我看是不是能夠給他通過啦好不好大家既然都我剛剛說過嘛這個銀行業業管理的有然後黨普法都有那卡中間的為什麼不能過呢你告訴我理由呢我找不出一個不能過的理由就就位的認知裡面看不到不通過的理由好不好我們今天的會到此節目結束謝謝各位的參與謝謝 |