| IVOD_ID |
166946 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166946 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-07T12:36:21+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-07T12:44:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f257f94a7ae2233b9781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e921ed209aa7b9337e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
高金素梅 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:36:21 - 12:44:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
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謝謝 辛苦了美匯召委今天你的從善如流然後聽到在野黨的聲音全體人民的聲音讓這部法可以來公開公正的在討論是非常辛苦的好 謝謝先我們請內政部馬次長法務部徐政次還有陸委會梁副主委 |
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我是最後一個在這邊質詢的那前面幾位的答詢我都聽到了那我必須要強調一下就是我們大家都非常的支持國家安全但是呢國家安全不能夠越過一個界限 |
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我们看一下院版今天的国家安全法修正总共有三个重点第一个是要增订鼓吹战争言论的行政裁罚 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
54.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
75.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第二個是要求平台要下架政府不喜歡的內容第三個是要徵定參與特定組織的罪責換句話說從你們認定開始一直到下架跟罰則幾乎全部都交給行政機關一手決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
76.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
94.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我剛剛開宗明就說了 我支持維護國安 守護國家的安全但是我們越是講國安 越不能夠用模糊的條文來偷渡擴權但是我們今天看到 政院版的文字你們真的是太寬 標準太鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
97.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
107.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你們塞了一堆看起來好像很嚴肅其實是說不清楚的概念你們刻意來創造刺激濫權的空間你們現在修正了國安法的第二條簡單來講就是要處理內亂的問題我們來看看刑法上面對於內亂罪是怎麼處理的看一下刑法第100條目前的規範是 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
126.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
145.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
意圖破壞國體竊據國土或以非法的方法變更國憲顛覆政府而以強暴或脅迫左手實行者處7年以上的有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
146.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
157.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
同樣是7年以上的重罪刑法第100條非常明確的要求是必須怎麼樣有意圖加上強暴或脅迫加上實行行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
162.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
191.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這麼樣才會成立內亂罪原因非常的簡單是什麼呢刑罰越重要見就越要清楚不能夠只憑意圖或者是口號就讓人民入罪避免回到思想入罪的老路我相信梁文傑民進黨你們最清楚我們再來看一下國安法第二條第一款的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
192.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
214.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
發起、資助、主持、操縱、指揮或發展組織足以生足以生法律用語簡單講就是足以產生危害於國家安全或社會安定大家就覺得很奇怪 足以生是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
215.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
234.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好這樣子簡單看起來你們修正的條文只要是意圖加上足以生危害於國家安全或社會安定的危險狀況就可以處以7年以上的重刑換句話說刑度拉到 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
235.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
248.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
7年以上門檻卻往更模糊的方向走讓執法的機關還有減掉起訴的裁量空間大幅的擴張而這樣寬鬆跟模糊最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
252.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
259.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
只剩下執法機關一句我認為你有危害人民就會被先約談喔然後就被貼標籤喔然後就會引起寒蟬效應的噤聲所以為什麼我剛剛說人民的言論自由言論自由很重要集會結社很重要所以我要再問一下三位 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
279.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
301.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
基本是7年以上為什麼刑法100條要強暴或脅迫裁罰而國安法是可以用更寬更模糊的標準足以生危險就辦處重刑這不是明確化 而是擴全化請三位哪位回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
304.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
321.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
報告委員 我針對第三個問題就是我們草案修改第七條跟第二條的相關的規定那我想內亂罪它的構成要件跟我們這裡國安法的構成要件本來就不一樣為什麼不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
322.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
338.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
同樣是刑法七年為什麼不一樣這有一點點是要讓人民噤聲讓人民害怕然後呢我先用國安法來定你定案完了之後送到法院去然後最後的財政是法院在決定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
339.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
360.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
時空背景不一樣當時的行為太陽跟現在行為太陽是有不一樣的謝謝次長您的回答時間的關係我們來看一下出自於福爾泰的朋友們有提到我不同意你的觀點但是我誓死捍衛你說話的權利當年民進黨您可能不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
367.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
369.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
民進黨曾經為了廢除刑法100條走上街頭現在的民進黨的朋友們你們也許當年沒有參與這個自由的活動但是你們的父母親恐怕有參與民進黨的朋友最清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
387.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
402.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
當年民進黨的朋友你們那麼樣的有氣魄帶著人民上街然後促成刑法第100條的明確化退縮化因為當初民進黨先輩知道避免思想入罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
403.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
410.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
避免國家用刑法管人民的嘴那才是民主社會該有的底線但是今天我們看到民進黨你們修的國安法你們是反其道而行 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
420.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
428.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你們想用國家安全法把當年自己那個唾棄的邏輯重新包裝然後讓模糊的要件寬鬆的入門入罪門檻配上沉重的刑度回到什麼先恐嚇先噤聲再處置的治理方式我認為這不是保護國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
445.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
472.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我認為這是用國安之名把人民的言論或者是結社推回到戒嚴的陰影我更認為這是實質的變相戒嚴也就是行政獨裁的前奏我更講得清楚這是民進黨的墮落你們不用再發言了因為你們在這邊說 說得都非常的心虛 謝謝 |