| IVOD_ID |
166927 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166927 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-07T11:43:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-07T11:52:32+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f345f168d89c5899a781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9b39180705a255bfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳冠廷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:43:28 - 11:52:32 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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我們先請內政部跟法務部好了內政部法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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委員午安現在的國安的修法我們這次我提出四個修法但是可能因為時間的關係我就針對第一件事情就是第二條跟第七條的修正草案那在我的這個修正草案裡面我是有提到說一線型的第二條條文有關公務上移民的部分是否能涵蓋所有秘密的形態如果改成涉及國家安全或 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
35.399 |
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公共利益因秘密之部分是否比較恰當那我們當初為什麼要改成這個樣子的原因其實是因為現在的威脅是非常多樣化那接觸到的密等或者是說在公務上接觸到的機密跟非公務上的相關的機密其實有些是更能夠傷害到國家利益的所以譬如說有些私人承包商其實美國也有相關的這些規定私人的承包商啊外包的這些設備商等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.667 |
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他不是在涉及公務的狀況之下取得跟國家相關或者是基礎建設相關重要的秘密那這樣子也會因此而影響那我們認為要把公務上改成這個國家利益或者是國家安全這樣的文字才能夠廣泛的包括各種威脅國家安全的樣態這個部分是不是先請內政部或法務部先把你們的意見各位簡單的來回覆一下 |
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88.375 |
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跟委員報告 其實公務的秘密應該來講 它又更大所以你往下算下來 有可能是有國防秘密 軍事秘密 或者是說 |
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107.436 |
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對 就是說它的最廣的概念是公務秘密底下才往下有那些根據國家機密保護法或者是刑法相關的法律規定去分 |
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125.214 |
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軍事機密它是大概最嚴格的這些都是在公務機密底下可能跟委員認知上有點當然跟我認知上是有差異的原因是在於說其實我們當時制定公務機密就是要把它全部包括國防國防以外軍事全部都包括在裡面國防國防以外的軍事是什麼意思 |
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147.971 |
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不是國防國防以外的公務機密國防以外我想因為公務機公務秘密不限於國家安全應該是你這樣講就是說你的意思就是說包含涉及國家安全或公共利益上也是在公務秘密之下所以說你認為說在現行的這個公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
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上因秘密之文書圖像影像等等其實已經把我們的法條裡面包含涉及國家安全或公共利益上面因秘密的這些相關的記錄都能夠跟全面的覆蓋你的意思是這樣子就是包括國家機密那國家機密當然包括國防秘密跟國防以外的公務的秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
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那國防秘密又分成軍事機密跟軍事機密以外的國防秘密這些都是在公務機密底下所以我們你認為說這可以完整的包含說私人的這些承包商私人承包商他如果接觸到這個工程這個工程的裡面的項目規範被核定為是機密那他也就會跑過來承包商縱使沒有這個公務人員的身份他接觸了這個東西只要被核定為國家機密或軍事機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
222.645 |
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一樣會在這一個條文的適用範圍之內所以你認為在現行的這個條文之下我們就不必特殊的在講說國家利益或公共利益上一面一致只要有現行的條文就已經完整的涵蓋住了對對對 就會把它涵蓋在裡面了OK 好 那這樣子的話我們就不會漏 才不會漏掉沒有 這樣本來就不會有漏掉的狀況對 對 對好 那這個是我們是認同的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.509 |
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那另外第七條如果說洩漏交付或傳達國家機密者現行的罰則是一年的有期徒刑如果是刺探或收集最低是六個月以上那這樣子的罰則是否足夠這個部分可不可以請法務部來簡單跟我們講一下這個法律的這個破阻效果或者是內政部都可以 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
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請問委員是講的是第第七條的條文他說如果說洩漏交付等等他會現在最低罰則是一年的有期徒刑那如果是試探或收集最低是僅六個月以上這樣的罰則是我們這個是層級化的就說像第二條的第三 |
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第三款它這裡洩漏交付跟傳遞它是一個行為太陽那刺探跟收集又是另外一個太陽它是有那種行為的嚴重性的一個層級化的區分對我們知道行為的層級化有區分但是我們現在問的是說在法律上面的嚇阻效果你認為說就算是這樣有出兩個區分一個是六個月以上那一個是一年有期徒刑你們認為說交付這樣子的國家機密者用這樣子的 |
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量刑會不會稍嫌太輕你們的 部的看法是怎麼樣這一個齁 如果涉及的是國家機密的話他交付的那個刑責會更重會更重對對對那可是我們看到的是最低刑責是一年有期徒刑那個是適用到國家機密保護法的問題那個另外一個法律也會 也有相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.246 |
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那這樣子加起來的話你說是另外一個法源的事情可以稍微解釋一下如果我講的時候這樣的嚇阻力是夠不夠的夠因為如果他這個交付的東西是國家機密 |
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352.525 |
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兩個法條的競合的關係之下我們不會使用這個法律不會使用這個我們會直接用縱法比較更重的那個法律對 會用縱法的國家經濟保護法那那個國家經濟保護法的縱法就不會用這個緊一點因為他們競合之後我們是選用這個對 有些是用國家經濟他縱的國家經濟保護法那這個是一般的公務一般的公務涉及國家經濟但是他不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
375.268 |
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一般公務的秘密但是它不是國家機密所以這個時候用這個條文就不會太重OK 好那這個就是一個成績我現在這樣講因為之前有這個總統府部包含一些憲兵或者是這些警衛那把行程相關的資訊那這樣泄露出去當初它的適用的法條是指國家安全機密保護法還是用這種僅制公務只是公務上面的秘密這樣一年之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.622 |
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415.456 |
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他是用國防以外的秘密 他沒有核定他沒有核定嘛 對不對對啊 算是用國防以外的秘密那這樣子的話 儘管他是嚴重的影響到我們元首的安全可是他這個還是比較輕的發財這個要不要列為國家機密 這個要自己去核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
420.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
436.637 |
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對 我理解說這個是要自己去核定但是它核定之後就像上次我們講的它是用從比較輕的這種東西凸顯那當然從那之後我們當然是可以從新政經關馬上去亡羊補但是我的意思是說未來類似這種樣態它散佈在各個不同的部門裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
437.378 |
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那有的時候行政機關他要疏漏的話那法律就變成是最後一道防線那如果我們還是用這樣子是用公務這樣子的罰則的話那只有一年有期徒刑但是它是後果是非常的嚴重的所以我的意思是說有沒有考量在這個狀況之下儘管它沒有被核定為比較機敏的部分但是實質上影響到國家的公共利益或者是國家重要的領導人物相關的安全的話最低罰則僅一年有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
464.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
483.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
或者是最低僅6個月以上這個罰則是否足夠能不能夠再檢討一下是 我們尊重大約的因為我剛才提到那幾個印象那是非常嚴重的但是因為它當初沒有被核定啊這個一方面也是讓行政部門自己要去檢討不能疏忽當然是行政部門要檢討主管也要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
508 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他們甚至還有他的政治責任都需要檢討包含整個總統府 國安會這個行動當然是要檢討但是我們現在講說在法律上面想聽聽看你們的意見是不是可以我們認為適當的層級化是比較有彈性所有的法律都從嚴定下去以後萬一他洩漏的購物量明明不是非常嚴重可是因為最低刑被釘框死了以後那各位在 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
508.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
524.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那法官判下去大家就會覺得這個怎麼那麼重所以有時候你還是要層級化看他洩露的東西是什麼東西我們再決定適用法律因為如果全部都從最重量型的話那就沒有辦法區分更加惡劣的行為嘛那我理解啦但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
525.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們剛才提到幾個例子麻煩還是放在心裡面想一下因為他的後果是很嚴重的那如果僅用一年有期徒刑或者是六個月以上他的嚇阻力確實是我覺得是稍嫌不夠啦所以還是希望你們給我們一個書面上面跟我們講一下你們的看法文字給我們好不好好 謝謝 |