| IVOD_ID |
166926 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166926 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-07T11:30:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-07T11:43:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8a4de0f3676b468f9357fdd1f9f599d3781827afd94ae333a2318d3e8cde50e9b39180705a255bfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:30:54 - 11:43:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。十、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「國家安全法第十三條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國家安全法第七條、第八條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十三條之一條文草案」案。十七、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十八、審查委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員李坤城等16人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第四條之一條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員徐富癸等20人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國家安全法第六條條文修正草案」案。二十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「國家安全法部分條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；第一案、第二十一案及第二十二案如經復議則不予審查；第二十三案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
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謝謝主席本席請內政部今天來的是馬次長好 次長委員早安好 次長好我們今天談這個國安法 |
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我們都表達立場我們支持保護國家安全但是法律不能倉促不能倉促還有法律的明確性也很重要首先本席想請教是不是我們也同步請經濟部今天是誰我們經濟部今天次長沒有來 |
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首先我們在這個行政院版本第8條有講到對大陸港澳敵對勢力大幅加重刑責但是對外國維持現行的行動 |
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那我們就要想了解一下這個差別刑度的設計它的核心依據是行為的危險性還是對象的威脅性包委 刑度設計可能要請教法務部的這個長官喔 這樣喔因為這不是內政部設計的那請法務 喔 次長 我們徐次長謝謝委員 |
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委員好那次長剛剛我講的您大概了解我們在這邊有講這個對象大陸港澳敵對勢力加重刑責但是對外國維持現行的刑度那這個刑度差別的設計你核心依據是行為的危險性還是對象的威脅性 |
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我想是行為的對我們國家的危險程度行為對國家的危險程度當然所以行為對國家的危險程度那你用對象幹嘛因為對象對我們國家的威脅是不一樣的那很簡單啊那如果這樣的話這些所謂的 |
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敵對勢力他就繞道讓他偽裝成外國勢力他行動不就行了沒有沒有我們還是會去查證如果他怎麼繞怎麼繞最後查證的出來他還是來自於我們敵對勢力那當然是用敵對勢力啊所以你們查證所以你們有辦法查證就對了這是我們的方法 |
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好那我们再来请教下一个就是我今天也有特别讲的针对我们这个现代经济的间谍等于也很少直接用中国公司出面他透过第三公司他透过第三国公司境外控股白手套那如果技术是形式上泄露给外国公司但最终实质流向中国 |
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那这套刑度的设计你会你会不会就因为举证困难所以你就适用较轻的刑度如果说证明我只证明到第一层第二层那事实上就是外国的外国或他所控制的组织你怎么证明是经济部来认定还是减掉自行判断还是你依据什么怎么样的我们收集证据一定会借重于跨部会的合作 |
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甚至於有可能跨國際的合作都有可能那如果你沒有查出來所以他就是判得比較輕嘛那是限制的問題那是事實上如果你沒有證據是不是就判比較輕了對所以我們這個法律也有可能寫得很重判得很輕啊我們是看我們證據走到哪裡我們就會起訴相關的條文如果我是沒有辦法證明我不能 |
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空口說白話隨便就按一個罪名就說這是第一項而不是第二項這點本席了解接著可能這個經濟部我們請經濟部這裡 |
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我們針對這個交付傳遞這邊經濟部有反對將交付傳遞納入處罰那理由是跨國企業內部技術流動是常態那本席也接著想問如果一家台灣企業他把核心關鍵技術他傳遞給了他的中國子公司這樣算不算外流 |
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包委員我想這部分就是回到他有給中國的子公司應該是說等一下 給中國 你大聲一點就是給中國的子公司因為假設這部分屬於落到交付的時候也會變落入可是那是他跨國企業他自己內部中國內部子公司啊我想這部分你應該是會按照個案判斷吧是好 那你如果個案判斷對企業來說他就存在有高度的不確定性 |
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那如果我是工程師我合法取得資料再合法傳遞給境外公司那以現在的法制有沒有哪一條可以管這部分我們最主要是假設今天單純的交付給他的子公司的時候我們怕是交付會這樣就會漏出因為前提應該還是要營業秘密的一個概念 |
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381.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
前提也要有什麼就是會有營業秘密因為他有營業秘密那假如單純的交付的時候營業秘密就會有這個問題所以我們這樣聽起來會不會是我們經濟部認為如果我包裝成集團的分工內部分工那技術流到中國也沒關係這怎麼辦這部分我想在整個經濟部的部分假設流到中國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
382.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
401.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
中國的公司的部分子公司可能也會有這部分的一個問題所以我想我們經濟部是不是你們應該要提出很有關交付傳遞非常明確清楚的紅線還有企業可預期的一些合規的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
404.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
430.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個應該要再強化所以這也是我們今天覺得我們還不要這種倉促審查很重要的一個立場所以我們希望經濟部就是說我們大家共同維護我們國家安全這沒有問題但是法律的很多的規定你不要造成廠商企業他們的一些恐慌就是有關交付子公司的這塊我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
431.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
460.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好那另外我也想繼續問就是說有沒有評估過這個寒蟬效應也就是說我們的這種國安法那會不會導致一些外商他把研商中心研發的這些中心呢撤離台灣這一塊我們也希望一定要特別的特別的重視因為台灣就是一個小島我們很重視知識經濟所以這一塊我們希望經濟部能夠特別特別注意好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
460.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
486.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 謝謝委員那接著接著 我接著問經濟部的報告也列舉了這個負入投資審查入資來台管制 出口管制清單以及實體的名單那請問現在這些制度是有效還是失靈包委員 我想這部分我們部裡面都有在做相關的一個審查的制度但是 那制度有效的話為什麼還要大幅提高刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
488.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
500.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你制度如果有效的話我們想知道我想這部分然後制度如果無效那是不是應該先檢討這些執行名單還有查核能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
501.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
518.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我想這部分我們就我在內部再問相關的單位所以我們今天看起來就是說這個行政執行的責任呢轉嫁給司法用重刑承擔這樣的一種立法我們覺得不這麼符合比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
519.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
546.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以我们希望这一块能够再加强所以最后我想没有完整的执行评估之前我们如果直接重型化风险太高了太高所以我们这一个案如果我们也希望召开公听会的时候经济部也多听一些产业各界的意见我们能够完整的检视这个制度的失灵点我们再来谈修法的强度好吗好 谢文 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
547.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
567.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
最後一題我想說這個有關中間人條款這個利益良善我也非常肯定但是我們看到整個行政院版的草案8-1它對於中間人行為太樣的具體定義好像沒有具體的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
568.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
593.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那所以高科技產業的併購專利佈局往往會需要譬如說律師會計師專利師的介入如果一家的台灣廠商要賣給外資會計師他可能負責建價律師負責合約那事後發現買家背後有敵對勢力資金那請問這些律師跟會計師會不會因為交付持有資料被當作中間人起訴這種情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
594.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
611.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個中間人的定義是從源頭去看的如果這個中間人你現在用講的現在我們在講法條嘛法條你沒有明確的這個行為太陽具體定義在法條裡面你現在當然回答我你可以你是活的你是人是活的對所以所以你們這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
618.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
640.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
只有刑罰你沒有主觀故意的嚴格限縮也沒有合規的指引那我們會擔心這會不會導致專業服務機構為了避險他們全面退出了這個高科技產業的案件會不會這樣這個他的行為他一樣是在第七條跟第八條 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
642.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
661.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以我们希望是不是在执法或立法说明中能够明确界定中间人的范围也不要让专业人士踩在红线上来8条之一对于中间人就定义就已经写得很清楚了他就是受外国大陆地区港澳这些 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
662.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
680.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
境外敵對勢力所設立實質控制的各類的組織機構團體或他派遣之人之指示也就是這些會計師也好律師也好他一接觸到的就是這些人如果他進而又去從事的這些第七條第八條的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
682.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
701.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個尤其是律師他不可能說他不知道會計師看到這些帳他很難去脫免這個責任所以這個要件裡面有好幾個買家背後到底是不是有敵對勢力的資金他們可能不會知道我們不會用結果論就是說我們查到最後是怎樣的話就怎樣而是我們的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
702.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
730.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
有沒有辦法去證明說這個中間人是知情的這些都是靠證據去架構的如果架構的起來那當然就會用八條之一來論我想這個也許我們在我們還是希望法律整個的明確性尤其牽扯到刑法要等於我們的定義更應該明確那當然有一些細節也許我們在這個法條審查的時候我們再做充分的交換交換一點 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
732.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
735.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
謝謝 |