| IVOD_ID |
16690 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16690 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-21T08:31:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-21T14:06:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:34:20 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c04fde1d52825d89f37b898cdd86ce78a12e9ca99aa835c0fbfea1b72ac9498b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:40 - 14:06:00 |
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報告委員會初期委員人數已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年5月14日星期三9時至12時30分5月15日星期四9時至13時35分地點群前樓801會議室 |
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1755.951 |
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1782.243 |
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出席委員陳委員招資等15人列席委員林委員得福等18人列席官員5月14日環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員5月15日勞動部部長洪森翰等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國5月14日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長經濟部勞動部及教育部就我國推動綠色轉型政策 |
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1783.624 |
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1803.582 |
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相關人才培育發展與產業政策規劃進行專題報告並被質詢。邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟部、農業部及教育部就純福及多福玩機物質管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理情形進行專題報告並被質詢。 |
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1806.365 |
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1835.475 |
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本日會議專題報告綜合詢答由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭茲等17人提出質詢軍經環境部部長衛生福利部食品藥物管理署署長江志剛經濟部能源署副組長鄭如敏經濟部產業發展署副署長鄒雨欣勞動部勞動力發展署主任秘書師署會計個相關主管等即席答覆委員廖偉祥所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢 |
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1836.175 |
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1847.362 |
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二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定5月15日報告事項處理勞動部韓衛114年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結報告案59案 |
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1870.776 |
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決定一均同意動之並提報院會二第二案通過附帶決議一項討論事項處理或審查勞動部行為一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結報告案十七案 |
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1871.536 |
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1900.459 |
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本日會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭志等13人提出質詢均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆決議一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內與書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定三均同意動之並提報院會宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺落之處 |
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1903.035 |
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1929.117 |
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沒有 我們議事錄確定那本日會議的議程邀請衛生福利部教育部就性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為進行專題報告並備執行那我們現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一位林業群委員辛苦了陳超之委員 |
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1931.972 |
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1947.019 |
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那我們請任官員 衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀 歡迎 歡迎保護司司長張秀燕 抱抱我一個啦社會救助及社工司司長蘇昭如 |
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1949.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1975.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
心理健康師代理師長鄭淑欣歡迎醫事師檢論記證李念慈歡迎社家署副署長詹美美副署醫療及社會福利機構管理委員會副執行長王育偉歡迎食藥署檢論記證林欣慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1978.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2005.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 歡迎疾管署檢任計政張雅芝教育部人事處處長林建章好 歡迎高教師專門委員賴冠偉好 歡迎學生事務及特殊教育師專門委員許惠卿國民及學前教育署專門委員王怡婷 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2006.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2015.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 歡迎 歡迎台大醫院院長吳明賢歡迎主任譚傑芝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2027.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2044.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們今天的這個的題目我們是就事論述對事不對人我們希望能精進改善所以做專題報告並來質詢希望會越做越好那繼續我們請衛部林靜儀政府次長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2053.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2073.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好 召會長主席 各位委員 女士 先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告 宣改榮幸自救性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為提出專案報告 請各位委員不吝 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2074.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2098.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
会与指教在性骚扰防治的部分为加强性骚扰防治行政院在2023年7月13日通过性平三法修正草案并在2023年8月16日经总统公布施行为了协助直辖县市政府提升性骚扰防治服务量能本部已经拟定卫生福利部推动性骚扰防治法中长程个案计划并且经行政院核定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2099.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2122.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
本部自2024年起合定強化直轄縣市政府推動性騷擾防治方案其中去年總共審議完成3130件申訴調查案件並且提供1291名被害人相關服務為根據推動業務執行今年我們總共合定補助65名人力跟業務費總共6839萬1840元 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2126.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2142.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本部強化性騷擾防治之精進作為包括推動社會大眾性騷擾防治教育宣導強化並落實場所主人性騷擾防治責任含班性騷擾調查人員培訓及調查專業人才資料庫建制要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2143.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2163.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以及办理性骚扰调查专业人员培训以增进申诉案件的审议品质落实被害人权益维护此外更需定期召开性骚扰防制业务联系会议咨询会议检视各直辖市县市政府性骚扰人力禁用经费执行及审议会办情形以精进业务的推动 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2165.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2181.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
在外聘督導的部分,社會工作督導是一個協助社會工作者專業成長與發展的歷程,透過教育、行政跟知識三大功能來進行指揮、協調、支持第一線社工提升服務品質。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2182.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2202.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
當公司部門所提供的服務有跨專業需求或內部本身沒有設置專職督導人員的人力的時候則會聘請外部專家學者擔任外聘督導以強化專業支持與服務品質近年因為家庭面臨議題比較趨向多元複雜例如家庭衝突精神疾病物質濫用貧窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2204.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2230.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
失業家庭暴力兒童虐待自殺防治等議題那社工要處理多元複雜的家庭議題所屬的機關機構團體他應該要提供第一線社工服務所需要的訓練督導跟支持那各社會福利機各社會福利團體或機構如果因為他的個別需求執行政府委託服務或補助計劃時可自行運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2231.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2258.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
外聘督導並透過個別督導團體督導的方式提供社工支持及協助指導第一線的社工那另外本部推動社會工作督導支持及培力計畫提供禁用社工人員在6人以下且未設專職社工督導的社會福利機構聘用外部督導提供穩定的社會工作督導資源擴大社工人員接受督導的涵蓋率 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2259.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2273.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
後職在地社工人員專業能力本部從大院各委員指教及監督在此盡致謝誠並期望各位委員繼續給予支持以上 謝謝好 謝謝林次長我們繼續請教育部林處長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2291.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2310.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士今天教育部受邀緊救性騷擾防治進行報告並聆聽各位委員、女士先生的一個意見深感榮幸以下報告敬請各位委員及先進指導與支持首先教育部在工作場域的性騷擾防治部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2310.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2335.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
依照性別平等工作法第13條的規定僱主應該採取適當的措施以防制性騷擾的發生本部也已經依照規定辦理性別平等工作法及性騷擾防治法修正重點職場性別平等及性騷擾防治及案例教學等這些的一個教育訓練並且透過製作文宣及利用各 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2335.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2362.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
各種場合集會來進行專題演講及每月用電子郵件的一個方式來向本部同仁宣導本部的性騷擾防治一個政策此外在落實性騷擾防治保護被害人權益本部也已經依照112年修正後的性別平等工作法及相關執法的一個規定研修本部及所屬各機關各學校的性騷擾防治措施或規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2363.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2378.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
另外為了因應校園現場的實務需求我們也訂定了各級學校非屬性別平等教育法所定性騷擾事件的申訴及處理的流程說明來提供各學校依照這樣的指引辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2382.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2407.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
其次在校園性騷擾的防治部分本部也依照《性別平等教育法》落實性別平等教育課程教學及校園性別事件防治教育宣導辦理教育訓練提升通報資能培訓事件調查專業人才落實當事人輔導及行為人防治教育督導落實不適任教師還有學校人員的通報管制等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2407.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2435.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
對於通報事件的一個處理情形我們也已經建置回報系統管理功能來提供各級主管機關來具以督導所屬的一個學校此外本部在性別平等教育白皮書2.0及12年國民基本教育課程綱要裡面規範引導各級學校在政策規劃學習環境與資源課程教材與教學校園性別事件的防治等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2436.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2453.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
來整體推動性別平等教育消除性別歧視保障學生的受教權維護人格的尊嚴防止校園性別事件的發生落實建制性別友善安全的一個學習環境以上報告敬請各位委員及先進與指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2462.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2490.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
有關本市會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報我們現在開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於上位前提出預期不受理我們暫定在10點30分左右休息言則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收案 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2492.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2508.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
現在開始我們第一位林業勤委員發言主席麻煩我們的社家屬還有社工師 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2521.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2547.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
兩位早那今天我想針對特殊安置的那個制度缺陷跟我們的外屏督導的責任到底要怎麼去界定首先來看就大家一直很關心的凱凱案我們是不是以這個案子來說明就是新北市惡富聯盟跟臺北市各自要負的責任是什麼來凸顯這個制度上的一些問題點為什麼這樣講呢孩子本來住在新北市那出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2548.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2578.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那本來就應該由新北市政府開案處理因為他是脆弱家庭那而且一直要處理到孩子呢如果他要收出養的話他要等到出養為止那過程當中呢新北市政府呢把孩子交給兒福聯盟去找保姆安置那兒福聯盟呢再度的就是把孩子就去交給流性保姆那孩子交給保姆之後兒盟照理來講要做兩件事情一個是回報新北市政府而且甚至這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2579.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2583.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
還是事實上是脆弱家庭的話是在我們的跨峽安置那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2584.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2612.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
很明确的很明显的就还是在新北市政府的手头上那二是应该要通知负责访视的居家服务中心那新北市政府如果接到回报的话确定孩子在流行保姆家的话应该按照规定他是要去访视因为案子还是在他手上那居家托育服务中心接到通知之后呢一个月内按照规定一个月内呢要进行第一次的访视也就是收托新收托九月 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2613.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2625.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
1號的話那他在9月底之前一定要訪視那而後按照法規就是每三個月要訪視一次那兒盟呢那就是按照他自己對這個個案的負責要看去 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2626.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2628.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
三方的這個合作其實應該要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2654.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2663.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是我有看到你們講有提到所謂一組折多協力所以那個組折看起來事實上是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2663.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2689.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
如果按照規定的話事實上是新北市那我們就再來看依據當時110年的中央鎖定的跨峽區兒少保護處理原則這屬於從新北市跨區到安置到台北市的案例它是非常典型的從新北要跨峽到台北市那就應該去按照跨峽區兒少保護處理原則這處理原則有提到收出養家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2689.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2715.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以想問副市長依照這個原則的話如果新北市通知台北市照顧孩子的責任我已經轉過去了那後續的追蹤訪視責任就應該由台北市負責可是如果沒有通知的話是不是這個新北市就是要繼續的去負責那還是說因為孩子被安置在台北市新北市政府一定要通報到台北市而且要通報後兩個縣市都要訪視 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2719.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2743.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我想這個凱凱案他當初進案的時候其實是退加了所以我們好像在這個新北跟台北的處理裡面其實他並沒有適用這個兒少保護的這個個案的權責分工那依照我們退加的這個分工的原則因為這個個案當時在新北市他退加他並沒有結案所以我們退加的處理原則是新北市如果沒有結案他應該要繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2745.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2772.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以如果沒有結案的話我看到這跨峽這個安置的處理原則裡面很清楚的講說你就是受理轉轄的縣市要回復同意轉接也就是說台北市說我同意那同意後一個月就要完成個案轉轄的交接權可是看起來事實上還是掛在新北市嘛如果一組折多協力的話照理來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2773.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2798.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
新北市這個案子還是他所以看起來是還是要去訪視的那第二個問題就是說今天兒童為什麼會選擇流性保母來安置那針對安置保母的這部分中央當時也有所謂的運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則有非常明確的去定了一個是他的第四點很清楚的在 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2799.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2827.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
第三小項清楚的講說依居家是托育服務提供者登記及管理辦法仿視輔導情形良好的仿視輔導情形良好不過呢這個劉彩萱呢她事實上是7月16取得我們的托育人員的技術證然後11月10號呢取得那個居家登記證那在2023年的4月17她就收拓第一個孩子那 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2828.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2849.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第二個孩子5月4號來所以他基本上還沒有經過訪視輔導2號因為5月16第一次訪視他人生當中接受的第一次訪視在5月16表示他從來都沒有接受過訪視輔導2號那如果按照剛才副署長講的那個概念上 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2850.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2874.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就是說今天這個孩子如果還在新北市即便安置是翠家的話是不是應該要運用要用這個原則就運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則所以應該要按照這個規定來做那可看起來兒童事實上是找一個沒有經驗的保姆來安置翠家的兒童這樣的處置有沒有過時 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2877.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2906.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想當初我們應該是在收出養的業務當中的時候其實對於這個安置的個案大概有兩種一種是就是安置在機構那另外一種是我們收出養的單位他自己去找保姆來做一些安置那這件事情我想應該是我們也是在檢討當中其實有發現說其實安置的這件事情其實他應該是要像這樣子他安置到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2906.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2924.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
從來沒有被仿似不到從來也是沒有接過小孩而且他才幾個月前才接他人生的4月17才接他人生第一個小孩都不知道他到底帶孩子的狀況是什麼你覺得誰應該去追究這個惡夢的責任是新北市政府台北市政府還是社交所 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2926.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2947.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我覺得應該是我們三方都應該是要負擔一些責任因為第一個我剛有提到說我們的居安置的這個個案其實不應該是讓去收出養的這個單位自己去找所以這裡我們也做了一些修正第二個是新北市他其實是沒有結案我覺得他在轉這個個案的時候其實也應該要注意到而某找到的這個保姆是不是適合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2952.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2964.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那第三個是兒盟他既然是身為我們收出場的這個案子的單位我覺得他在找這個保姆的時候也應該要遵守我們這樣的規定那我再來理清一個問題就兒盟送托 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2967.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2993.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這邊是你們的經濟報告裡面寫的就社福中心沒有結案就新北市社福中心是沒有結案的那可是兒母在10月24號的時候有回報說他第二次去訪視了去訪視保姆然後可是社福中心呢呃溯英社福中心事實上是沒有任何記錄讓人家公查說他確實兒母有回報他那我不知道這中間到底出了什麼問題兒母說我有告訴你那呃溯英社福中心這邊沒有任何記錄也沒有後 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2995.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3012.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
後期的作為可是如果我們按照剛剛跨峽的這種制度來看的話也想救教的是說今天新北市讓兒盟把孩子放到台北市那也沒有去跟台北市對焦可是孩子就是已經安置到台北市了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3013.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3034.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
新北市台北市社福中心就是都知道嗎就是我孩子已經放到你台北市了因為今天如果兒盟有回報啊回報說我已經放到台北市那為什麼新北市沒有跟台北市為什麼也沒有作為說社福中心我文山社福中心我要把孩子接起來因為跨峽的按照法規是要這樣做的可是雙方好像一個先講沒結案又說沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3035.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3055.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
沒有記錄 可是額蒙說他有回報10月24號他第二次訪視的時候有回報所以想問這樣子的狀況我覺得副座是不是可以解釋一下一個本來是主責的他沒有去告訴對方 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3057.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3073.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
黨的兒盟有去告訴了有時候我有去告訴新北市那新北市有沒有要去跟台北市真的正式做交接台北市已經知道自己孩子來著那台北市文山社福中心是不是應該要去啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3076.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3101.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這件事情也是我們就是在這個案子之後有做檢討就是三方應該要合作那我想也謝謝委員當時也給我們很多的意見我們也製作了一些相關的文件那回到這個事件當時其實應該現在我問的比較仔細就跨區安置誰應該去通報台北市政府該負責通報的單位有通報嗎是兒盟呢還是事實上是新北 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3104.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3127.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
應該這樣講就是說我們如果是我覺得大家都有一些責任譬如說新北的這個社福中心他其實把孩子因為交給兒母出養所以兒母安置到把孩子安置到哪個家庭裡面哪個保母家他應該要知道因為剛剛有提到他沒有結案所以他也應該是我們其實跨峽的這個社福的單位應該要彼此合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3128.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3148.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這是我們中央一再強調的因為地方是要協助我們做執行我們也強調大家資訊是需要分享的所以新北應該要告訴台北市的社福中心這是第一個那第二個我們收出養的這個耳蒙的單位他既然是我們收出養剛剛有提到我們其實還是希望即使是出養的兒童其實還是要維持一些親情 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3149.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3163.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
跟家庭的親情的這個關係所以他也必須要再告訴我們的這兩個社會中心他有做銜接這個也是我們在凱恩事件之後強力的要求地方政府要配合三方必須要資訊的分享再請教是 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3165.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3178.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
在2023年的12月24號孩子走了可是到隔年3月13號媒體3月11號曝光之後呢台北市才開始公告姓名跟廢紙登記證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3180.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3201.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所以本席懷疑如果媒體沒有爆料的話台北市政府是不是就不處罰人了所以想問這件事情台北市政府三個月後才做行政處分可見台北市政府有一定的責任不然這就是一個無效的行政處分了所以想問台北市政府對於保姆所在地的主管機關接受通報後應該要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3203.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3230.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
接受通報後 依照我們的流程 他其實就是要展開調查那對 可是三個月後才做處分 這有沒有屬實這件事情我們大概有問過台北市 他主要考量當時他認為是已經有司法在處理了行政調查跟司法本來就是分開 其實是應該是可以分開的那台北市政府呢 處罰姊姊 流行保姆姊姊 可是不處罰妹妹這樣子 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3233.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3259.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這件事情我們可能要來問台北市比較會清楚他們調查的細節所以我認為應該以人追案所在先是一案到底這也是後來我提出來之後我想市家署也按照這個在走以後真的孩子不是讓人家責任劃分不清楚的時候結果孩子就被在一個沒有人監管的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3260.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3285.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
而且我認為特殊需求安置的孩子就是這種特殊安置的孩子應該強度上要不一樣不能放在一般仿式的保姆的所謂這種拘托中心它只是一般仿式的話事實上是孩子父母會接回去的家庭來安置事實上實屬不太恰當我也覺得接下來分級這一塊我覺得社交署要去努力那接下來就想問那個師長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3290.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3319.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
想問外賓督導因為這是我去找你們的所謂的補助辦法裡面因為過去國外比較沒有這些東西甚至台灣事實上這個東西又沒有講清楚那這邊講的是補助原則裡面特別去提的是如果是團多的話那一對多所以就特定定主題跟任務的督導關係發揮團體的互助而且是經驗分享這一塊所以本來就所謂的內督 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3320.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3346.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以國外的話大概他們稱的事實上是不會叫做外聘督導那事實上是外部的專家學者可是我們卻把這兩個督導這詞本來社工一直用這詞通常過去在搶的事實上是內部可是內部內聘督導的話叫做主管外聘督導的話通常如果以商業界來看的話事實上是顧問所以我們看社工督導的專業平台也特別提說 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3347.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3373.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
他是聘請機構外的專家學者進行督導其餘被督導者無階層管理的一個關係通常提供的是教育跟支持的功能那因為沒有階層管理關係也不是機構內的督導比較難有一些行政功能所以這是因為政府過去事實上是政府的民間方案聘請外部專家指導所以這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3374.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3391.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
也是社工專協提出來的他們在內部的手冊裡面所以想問一下外督這個機制是因政府採購制度而設計的目的在這個顧問的一種角色去支持社工確保服務品質是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3393.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3412.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
跟委員報告我想社會工作督導他最主要的功能包括了教育支持跟行政三個就是角色那有一些組織他可能規模比較小所以他們有專責的一個督導所以他才在外向外來聘請這個督導來協助他是最主要的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3412.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3433.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那就就這三個功能而言當然是外部來的他可能是部分的時間來到這個機構那他也不是這個機構的職員所以可能他在行政的角色上會比較淡一點點那但是他還是具有教育就指導跟這個支持這樣一個功能那具體來說外部督導職務規定有在哪邊有規定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3436.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3458.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
因為當初是補助的原則裡面只是非常鬆的去講了一些東西對 就是我們在補助的那個規定裡面有提到到底什麼樣的人可以來擔任督導他要發揮的功能是什麼還有一些經費補助的一個項目那另外我們各自的福利的法規或是計畫裡面可能有提到也可以藉由督導這樣的一個功能來協助服務品質的一個確保那當然他對督導的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3463.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3475.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
資格啦或是規定啊 次數等等也會有一些相關的規範所以可不可以依照國外的經驗來去思考這件事情那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3475.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3504.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
不管假設未來你們要持續去進行就是是不是要訂定相關的契約來把職責畫明清楚當然你們也可以拿我的遭遇來做範本不管認為我是對是錯可是去把制度的漏洞補上然後把這整套的制度完成否則的話如果內都外都外界的人分不清楚然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3505.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3521.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
用一個內都的要做的角色去框架在外都的角色裡面那也實屬不妥所以是不是把內都外都講清楚說明白內都本來就是主管外都事實上是外部的專家學者一年可能來一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3522.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3545.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
到六次都有可能 不一定 那機構隨時他們去邀所以我想問一下 這樣的制度上要補上的話這種精進制度要花多少時間 請問一下市長初步我們是這樣子想 就是在社工的服務裡面督導的功能的確非常的重要那目前在社工的法規裡面 是的確沒有比較不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3545.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3571.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以我們現在也正在研議說是不是要來研定一個社會工作推動的一些作業的一個要點會把督導一個功能或是基本的一些運作的一個機制我們想要在裡面做一個擬定這是第一個general的整個社工的制度那再來各自的福利法規跟計劃裡面也可以在這邊擬定因為每一個業務的一個需求或許有它的特殊性那是不是可以朝這兩個方向都可以來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3572.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3583.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以最後我希望你們明確訂定外都制度跟整個管理上的辦法來釐清職責跟角色定位否則如果依照這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3584.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3601.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
不清楚的話我想未來沒有人敢去擔負這樣的一個角色然後釐清三方的就簽訂三方的契約就督導者機構工作者要明確那個職責所在那麻煩你們大概禁訴定下來我不知道給兩個月時間夠嗎還是給一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3603.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3617.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
委員我們是不是再來研議一下,因為如果要訂整體的要點是需要一些作業的一個時間那看看其他相關的一些業務的領域,因為我們要跟其他市屬來做一些討論討論麻煩金樹,好謝謝謝謝李委員,今天用了20分鐘讓你好好的講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3625.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3653.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我覺得這個頭銜名稱都有問題到處都講督導搞不清楚什麼叫督導連我都搞不太清楚另外一個通報系統應該也要大家都知道醫界的這個通報是不錯的我們醫療方面這個社工這一塊是不是要模仿一下我們醫界不然的話就很容易漏接掉真的會漏接好 謝謝 謝謝市長那接續我們請陳昭志委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3660.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3674.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
質詢前我要先感謝昭偉大家都很關心凱凱案跟醫院性騷案但是我知道有人向您關說希望把這個題目檢討外聘督導制度拿掉但是您挺住了人情壓力仍然把這個題目留在議程裡再次謝謝昭偉有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3685.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3689.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
次長好我想先請教社會工作督導的職責我參考了衛福部社會工作督導支持及培力計畫的內容第一項第一頁就提到剛剛也報告了督導具有教育支持及行政三種功能透過定期和持續的督導可以傳授社工專業服務的知識跟技術確保對案主服務的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3712.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3729.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那除此之外 督導也是組織內部第一層管理者所以從衛福部的定義來看 督導不是一個被動的角色他是一個主動來增進社工服務能力的角色 對嗎 次長對 如果是單位內部自己的本身品質的督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3731.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3757.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
在衛福部的外聘督導計畫中也提到目前實務運作上規模小的社福機構只有一名社工人員產生缺乏督導支持的困境所以衛福部就推出了這個外聘督導的目的是要建置經常性的穩定的社工督導資源及制度要擴大社工人員接受督導的涵蓋率 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3757.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3771.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
也就是說外聘督導雖然不像內部督導是第一層的管理者但是外聘督導的功能其實很類似內部督導的也是要藉由置身長期的專業經驗來傳授機構內部社工人員專業服務的知識跟技術那我現在要請問次長我看完整個衛福部的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3780.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3794.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
衛福部要形塑的這個外部督導外聘督導是要在一定的程度去替代機構的內部督導是有很大的責任必須要去主動了解機構社工協助個案的狀況是嗎次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3796.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3817.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
呃先跟委員報告就是說我們的這個計畫是協助6人以下的機構就是他本身整個機構的體制不足以不足以自己內部聘他自己應該有的督導對他自己內部沒有辦法聘 聘不出來那我們讓他可以用外督但是我們還是希望大家內部可以有一個比較合理本身制度內的督導這個事情就是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3821.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3839.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
按照您的說法如果這個外聘督導沒有一定的程度責任不需要去主動了解只要在那邊等人家問問我們沒有說外聘督導不用主動了解那有時候社工沒問題不表示沒問題嘛所以這個外聘督導這樣的情況下不就是虛設嗎根本就不具備你們計畫上自己講的這幾個功能啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3841.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3858.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們有因為這個事實上是去協助規模小然後他可能組織運作上面業務單純的機構我們讓他可以用外督來補強可是如果本身有一定制度而且他本身內部已經成員上面都穩定的情況之下他內部一定要有他該有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3859.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3874.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
督導計畫上所寫的功能兩位社工系教授徐雅惠跟張英正他們在他們的一個研究提到他們研究題目叫風險管理下的社會工作督導他提到說督導的專業功能就是協助社工發展專業技術跟才能那強化服務的責任的責任與表現以確保案主從頭到尾都回到這個案主就是福祉要受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3885.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3910.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那這個研究有提到多數的內部督導仍然以團體的方式固定的進行那個別的方式有定期跟不定期的都有並沒有非常固定的時間或特定的內容那很多人表示在這個研究中他表示他的方法是隨時督導不定期督導有需要時隨時來可以問我的方式為什麼呢因為他們說太忙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3911.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3935.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
包括委員可是您舉的這個他講的事實上就是各縣市政府內部本身的保護性社工督導他不是外督請你部長我必須次長我必須說如果外部督導也跟社工的方式一樣你有問題再來問我那我覺得這樣的制度都失去了這個研究講的是內督喔這個外聘督導制度計畫的目的所以次長你認為無論是內部或外部的督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3936.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3955.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那真的都可以等社工是有問題再來問我或是他不問你就不用主動去協助社工有什麼問題嗎所以我們才很希望說原來在制度跟機構內部他要建立他自己內部穩定的督導系統那自己內部的督導系統的職權因為他基本上是被聘僱他有指揮監督的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3957.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3977.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
獨島的制度 獨島的身份不一樣我要引用兒少專家林月琼委員在2009年發表的碩士論文的其中一段話他說建立獨島制度透過定期的獨島會會議來強化專業實務技能並且能夠充分的獲得情感的支持提供紓壓團體或心理諮商的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3980.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4000.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
讓工作人員的情緒疏解有暢通的管道來減緩工作的壓力所以綜合以上我談的這些點我覺得大家都能夠理解督導這個角色在社工的實務運作上其實是非常吃重的絕對不是領了錢就閃人的一個工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4002.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4009.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我想我們很多的督導願意擔任督導這個工作就絕對是有他的熱忱我們來參考營業群委員之前的聲明他說自己是外聘督導僅根據機構的需求被動協助並不涉及機構的內部營運跟管理事務我認為這個說法對外部督導的值得定義是有出入的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4026.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4053.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
社會大眾聽到了一定有很多的滿腦子的問號而我個人是完全沒辦法接受這樣的說法2009年的林月琴督導認為督導可以強化實務技能但2025年的林月琴立委卻覺得督導只是負責被動的回答問題這個就是換了位置就換了腦袋嗎社工師如果沒有盡責去發現楷開的遭遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4054.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4074.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那甚至企圖掩瞞這個事實就是當然是一個大錯誤但是甚至社工師背後負責監督管理給予協助的督導難道沒有責任嗎那我要談的是外聘督導就是還是一樣還是資深有經驗的社工師前輩來輔導機構那就是社安網的最後一道防線 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4079.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4104.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
委員我同意你講這是最後一道所以他原先制度內部的督導他應該要完成他應該有的職責然後如果這邊不行 不足我們才會補強外部的督導來做補強市長請讓我來說明就是說如果林月琴委員可以多方的兼職出事了就一句她只接受被動的這個諮詢來切割這些經驗不足的機構難怪社安網的漏洞永遠補不起來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4105.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4120.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 次長來請你看這張圖根據台北市居家托育服務中心托育人身心狀況處遇的流程當托育人也就是保姆身心出狀況時外聘督導可以評估是否要通報社會局請問次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4121.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4137.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
凱凱案的外聘督導有沒有看過這個社工的訪視記錄如果他看了就會知道凱凱受傷而且神情有異樣那就有進一步機會去探討看就保姆到底有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4138.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4160.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那如果他沒看過他就是嚴重的失職啊為什麼呢因為台北市社會局說外聘督導的工作包含看訪視記錄次長凱凱案的外聘督導也就是林月琴委員有沒有看過社工寫的訪視記錄我只要知道他有沒有看過社工訪視記錄呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4161.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4174.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我有一種說明一下因為台北市的居托中心他本身內部他有社工他有保姆他有訪視輔導員訪視輔導員在上面還有內部督導內部督導這邊他在執行業務上面他有專業資能的需求他會從外部這邊再來補強那我想顯然他沒看過了那沒看過我覺得他是他工作之一啊那是太忙了嗎內部督導的職責我要不要先處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4191.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4216.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
訪視報告都不看嗎那外聘督導就當顧問啦外聘督導其實真的有一部分是外聘督導是補強原來內部制度社工包含他的知識他的支持以及他原來內部督導之外的部分好謝謝次長次長我現在在談利益迴避問題過去30年我被健保署聘為藥品專家委員但是為了釐清是否有利益衝突需要迴避的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4216.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4245.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我在2024年2月就職立委之後我第一次出席專家會議時我就公開在會議上聲明因為我現在的身份是黨推派的不分區立委有監督行政機關的責任這樣的身份是否適宜繼續擔任專家委還請健保署及衛福部能依現行法律制度幫忙釐清確認如果不適宜請告訴我以便進行後續的程序等等當時我還要求列入會議紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4246.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4274.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
在場的是一位參議代學勇參議他說知悉然後當天他也請我先繼續開會我要說的是我從不眷戀任何職務即便專家諮詢這個角色其實沒有決策權但是有任何問題我隨時可以離開就像立法委員並沒有規定說他不能兼職但是我有我自己的這個堅持的點我原來是核心醫院藥劑部及其他兩個部門的主管但是就任立委前我都辭職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4276.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4306.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
然而即便我在健保署會議上做了這麼清楚的說明衛福部幾個月下來都沒有表明告訴我說這個會議有利益衝突或不妥但林淑芬立委卻在質詢台上對我進行政治攻擊跟抹黑很重要的林月琴立委還親自對我說為什麼我不用最高的標準來要求自己好那我必須來告訴大家到底是誰沒有用最高的標準來要求自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4306.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4322.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
請看這張我們就來看看這位要求我用最高標準來對待自己的立委是如何的嚴以利人寬以待己林月琴擔任立委後同時兼任了四個團體的幹部 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4324.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4351.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這四個團體的幹部從林月琴委員就任後到現在總共獲得了22個標案總金額高達9400多萬其實我相信這些團體聲譽卓著它有很多的豐功偉業就算沒有立委當門捨我不認為他拿到政府的標案會有問題但問題在哪裡呢林委員有沒有用最高的標準來要求自己呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4352.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4377.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我擔任健保署的專家委員我可沒有零幾百萬的車馬費喔我也沒有拿幾千萬的標案喔可是他要我遵守最高標準那請問他自己有辭掉基金會的董事嗎有辭掉聯盟副理事長嗎還是他要各此向吳春成看齊把立委辭掉如果都做不到那這不是雙標什麼是雙標呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4382.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4404.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
市長我們現在來看一下狼醫事件市長在台大西教授事件發生的時候我就已經叮囑過台大醫院我有邀請他們到辦公室來在姓評會做過相關的決議後就要儘速往上通報西教授一案是如此黃姓住院醫師一案也是如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4406.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4421.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
請問台大醫院有沒有網上通報給台北市衛生局為什麼沒有台大醫院內部的行政環節出了什麼問題難道覺得這件事不重要不需要網上通報嗎請吳院長回答謝謝您只要回答有沒有通報為什麼有通報就有通報沒通報是為什麼謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4432.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4457.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
根據性騷髮我們這個案子很快在三個月內就處理完也通報衛生局主要是因為性騷髮在好 院長您說你通報衛生局社會局社會局但是你沒有通報衛生局好 院長我了解先這樣但是台大婦產科已經是高風險的部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4459.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4474.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他竟然連三報高風險的部門 次長台大醫院數次的不作為等同包庇這些性騷犯衛福部能不處理嗎龍頭醫院不是應該要立標杆嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4477.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4493.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
加害者可以持續在台大醫院任教診療數十年姓平慧雖然已經掌握多名的受害人數可是我們都沒有看到院方主動公開處理進度跟結果也就是說它是個系統性問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4495.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4508.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
受害者需要多年私下躲避然後同時要幫助他迴避那個加害者職場內缺乏有效的保護申訴跟轉介的管道所以形成了一個什麼呢 噤聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4510.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4525.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
制度的一個結構 噤聲大家都不敢講話噤聲的結構為什麼會這樣呢就是因為醫療體系內部權力機構跟性別的詮釋不對的導致受害者長期沒有辦法申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4526.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4540.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那由於目前的通報制度院長通報制度上有漏洞啊您通報了社會局但是您沒有通報衛生局上次我來跟您建議我就說您要趕快通報衛生局這個導致很多案件最後用什麼方式草草了結呢自行離職 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4542.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4558.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
請問自行離職草草了結的方式能夠防止再犯嗎能夠防止跨院流動嗎做得到嗎所以好麻煩次長次長未來性平會確認的性騷事件可不可能說不要等判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4559.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4572.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
不要等判刑你可以啟動醫師懲戒或是限制職業等措施來補足這個行政處理的標準跟性平制度之間它有銜接的落差嗎好請次長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4574.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4594.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
謝謝委員我想這件事情大家也非常關注我們也一直強調其實醫療人員我們病人在我們面前其實這個部分病人是因為疾病來到我們面前那醫療人員醫事人員應該採取最高標準那您剛剛所提到的就是說在性評會確認後不用等判刑其實這個部分本來就可以從醫師法第五條來啟動懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4597.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4622.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
好謝謝你那就是要行動啊但是都沒有看到行動啊那我想我想最後一件事是說當婦產科醫師們涉及性騷性侵的時候院長我問過你啊他適合繼續當醫師嗎他適合繼續當婦產科醫師嗎婦產科醫師是要檢查女性最私密的地方他已經犯了性騷案跟性侵案他可以繼續當婦產科醫師嗎您覺得可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4626.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4650.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
絕對不可以 絕對不可以嘛 市長 絕對不可以那衛福部做了什麼衛福部沒有做任何事啊 繼續行醫啊 繼續代表台灣出國啊目前在整個流程上面 在我們知悉相關的案件之後就立刻請地方衛生局來啟動醫師懲戒委員會市長 因為 當然是以台大 我的母校嘛反正就是我不是酸葡萄心理 我們都是從那裡畢業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4651.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4676.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
台大醫院他的很多通報系統出了問題台大醫院的這個婦產科婦產部門現在必須要趕快澄清他們的生育嘛因為現在變成這個高風險部門嘛所以吳院長您要趕快做這些處置醫師的懲戒處置不管是衛福部來做還是誰來做總要趕快做嘛我們現在看到不是嘛他們就是在犯嘛或是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4677.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4696.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
到別的醫院行醫就沒事了嘛 這樣吵吵吵吵了結這樣行嗎這樣對社會大家受害者都交代不過去啊好 麻煩兩位首長 謝謝主席謝謝陳道志委 謝謝次長 還有院長那繼續我們請徐曉新委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4709.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4714.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
謝謝昭緯 那我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4722.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4744.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4747.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4751.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4774.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4787.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4788.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4817.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4818.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4827.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4834.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4858.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他是否不再事任副產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部職登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4861.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4871.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4883.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4900.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4901.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4916.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4918.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4932.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4933.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4956.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告是那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4959.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4986.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是呃台北市衛生局會在之後的這個醫師懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4987.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4999.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢所以也跟我們報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5002.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5019.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5020.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5041.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次那有人能夠回覆嗎在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5048.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5066.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
但是因为邱太元部长当时就说他们会要求尽速改选嘛这是白紫黑字讲到的嘛然后他也说会把我们的这个状况以及妇产科这个理事会相关的回应随时跟我报告但完全都没有啊从一月到现在已经五个月了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5067.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5089.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這5個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的槌群議事司有回一個委員齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5096.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5114.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5115.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5133.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那在法律没有明定的事情的情况之下这件事情牵涉到重大的医学伦理所以卫福部这边我们在接下来的一轮大会也会来没问题我们再看下一张因为这个事情为什么要持续追踪是因为他非常的夸张这个理事长网站上依旧是他嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5133.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5151.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5152.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5171.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5176.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5199.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
但是他们是非常痛苦的而且台大医院这边也已经性骚这个部分也已经确定了嘛那我们点进来看到理事长还是他然后他还这个大言不惭的说要对妇女和妇产科医师争取更好的福利那请问是什么样的福利这个对于很多第一个这对很多的女医师来说看了都非常的不舒服第二个 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5199.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5215.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我们这个理事长他就讲到说要到韩国跟这个妇产科医学会来进行交流而且呢4月的时候他本来称病哦但是呢被解聘之后说要请病假两个月 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5215.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5236.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了然後就說要去溝通了 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5238.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5265.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
四月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5266.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5272.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5273.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5301.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人就是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5301.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5324.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
講到懲戒的部分喔 可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說呢要聖平三法走在前面 要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5325.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5346.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5348.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5378.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
其實因為時間的關係我直接講只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5379.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5400.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事好那我們請台愛院請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5405.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5422.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5432.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5441.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
居托中心哪一家居托中心文山的居托嘛這十年來的督導是有特定對象的嗎這十年來的督導督導指的他內部督導外部督導 外聘督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5452.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5469.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我說文山區拘托這10年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5470.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5482.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5494.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5522.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道說原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是美國的立法委員還自詡而關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5526.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5554.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是人山之託就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5555.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5571.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5572.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5591.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
報告人跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰但是我們這些團體這個進捐兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢 那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5593.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5614.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5615.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5626.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5631.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5655.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
報告委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5656.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5681.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5684.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5703.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
相關的懲處內容後續我們要進行調查後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5705.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5729.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5730.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5754.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5754.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5775.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個部分應該會是變成 這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎 好 那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準解釋自己但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5776.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5789.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
還拿標案還拿補助還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有申請對啊 我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5806.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5830.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝 謝謝謝謝徐委員 謝謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5835.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5836.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
接續我們請盧縣議員主席有請次長跟吳院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5855.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5861.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個猛懲讓我們覺得很羞愧 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5870.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5888.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們一直在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5889.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5913.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5914.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5922.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5924.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5952.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5953.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5971.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有要求為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最難逆的最要緊所以想問院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5972.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5996.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣子的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西在醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5997.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6003.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
就是全面的組織而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師所以他的課是白上了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6004.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6033.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這個我沒辦法回答我們所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第15第14 15 18 31只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6034.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6054.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很疑問發生這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6055.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6082.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6083.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6096.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6098.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6123.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
甚至我們在上次C性C性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6125.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6145.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
就是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像事實上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6146.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6162.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6163.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6181.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對 所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉 次長的態度呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6182.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6212.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說了不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的我這兩天看了一些文獻那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到比如說我要找一個所謂的sex harassmentcare provider to patient |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6212.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6241.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
結果他那個題目自動會回到patient to care provider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾所以幾乎是沒有前例可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在防治這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6242.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6256.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
可以去看的報告委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6257.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6278.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
所以他事實上就是在性平三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在性平三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的規則裁員是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6280.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6309.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能不能去單獨值班跟看看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是行通因為那發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6310.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6335.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望這法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6338.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6365.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝次長 院長來 繼續我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 有請衛福部次長以及台大醫院的院長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6372.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6396.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
吳院長我先請教一下目前台大醫院在急診那邊擁擠的狀況還嚴重嗎最近又開始嚴重因為最近是新冠肺炎JN1病毒株最厲害的時候最近這一兩個禮拜病人又開始增加我只想利用這個機會因為難得有機會在外環委員會遇到你 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6400.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6426.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我將心比心非常多家裡有老人家的人那老人家一出狀況可能後續的併發症等等會很嚴重大家第一時間都要送到台大去那過去我曾經陪伴我的父親到台大醫院的急診室那時候人多到我還記得很清楚我是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6428.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6456.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
病床不是在急診室病床是在大廳睡在大廳睡在病床外面當然每個人都需要服務整個晚上我有看到急診處的同仁大家非常非常辛苦我只想藉這個機會第一個表達我的謝意第二個台北醫院急診處或其他醫院的狀況有什麼需要立法院這邊幫忙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6458.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6480.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
請院長隨時跟我們報社聯絡該給第一線醫護同仁的支持,全力支持好,接下來請執照那個我想額六的問題喔,大家天理燃農啊非常憤怒啊,這麼多人在法院外面抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6482.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6506.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那當然過去這幾年我們的政府不斷的在強盜社會安全網那相關的預算的經費也不斷的投入那每次這樣子的悲劇發生的時候我們都會去思考我們整個社會安全網為什麼政府這麼重視投入這麼多經費接不出凱凱這也是我相信為什麼台灣社會這麼多人憤怒的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6508.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6531.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我事前預防的層次也有事後究責的層次事後究責的層次對於現在額內的處罰規定不夠這件事情已經有相關的提案雖然主管的機關是法務部但是從衛福部的立場針對額內的部分去增加刑罰的強度這件事情衛福部是不是贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6532.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6550.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我想在法律的部分委員也清楚我們在過去的修法事實上在相關法規如果是對於幼童相關的虐待事實上都加重其刑二分之一是至於其他的刑度或者是在修法上面的立場當然我們尊重法務部的當然是尊重法務部嘛所以我說法務部是主管機關所以我才請教你衛福部有沒有立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6550.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6575.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
站在衛福部的角色我們事實上就是把剛剛委員所提到的社會安全網的部分來做強化對不起我剛剛在問的是刑法的問題這邊做的是前端的預防不是刑法是 我說站在衛福部的立場針對有關兒孽增加刑法衛福部知不知恥我想 兒孽對兒童虐待在相關的法律裡面去加強去讓他加強刑法過去就有加強二分之一刑法等等所以你覺得夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6578.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6600.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
比如說站在衛福部的立場我們做的是前端的預防跟資源的補強那針對後面刑罰的加重後面刑罰的加重就是法務部的權責所以你們就完全尊重法務部我不能在這邊去為法務部說我沒有要你為法務部現在我請你站在衛福部的立場表達衛福部的態度你可以跟我說衛福部沒有態度尊重法務部這樣就好了對我剛剛說了第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6602.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6628.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
去年3月的時候,外防委員會針對這個凱凱的額內案請衛福部報告那一天出現了很多意識上的杯葛因為民進黨的委員任何主席是王育民委員王育民委員好像是額福機構的董事他當時是額福聯盟董事是,然後認為他應該要利益回一臂 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6630.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6641.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
鬧了很大的風波我今天其實是來討論制度的問題我不是來做政治攻防的問題因為最近這一兩個禮拜我相信相關的政治攻防也夠了讓大家非常詫異是不是用同樣的標準站在下面的人去抗議坐在上面的主席是那個機構的董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6657.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6683.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
結果搞到最近大家才知道,原來他是這個案子裡面外部督導那我相信,詹惟也是好意所以今天排了這樣子的一個專案報告去討論有關外部督導的權責那只不過我看了衛福部今天的報告我對外部督導的權責其實我是越來越困惑真的越來越困惑那我為什麼說我會越來越困惑我們一步一步來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6686.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6711.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那個時候在去年3月的時候衛福部所提出來的書面報告講說要去強化地方社政主管機關的監督職責包括對於居家托育服務人員的監督那這個監督我們落實到法規層面上繼續來看有關於兒少福利與權利保障法第26條第三項的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6714.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6737.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
居家式推育服務的監督直轄市政府可以自行或委託相關專業機構團體辦理這個沒有錯吧那我現在的第一個問題是說這個居托中心的監督的這件事情在凱凱案他有委託外部的團體辦理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6741.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6765.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
這個當時是文山區的這個拘托中心我們先一樣一樣來因為我覺得現在太多媒體上面的討論都著重在政治上面的攻防這不是我今天質詢的重點所以就請你們一樣一樣把問題的層次弄清楚就是那個保姆他是由兒福聯盟去轉介的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6767.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6772.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
是吧 那個保姆是不是掛在文山區的居托中心下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6773.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6799.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛就是我們一定要把法律關係先搞清楚權責才可以釐清啊你如果連基本法律關係都弄得亂七八糟的我看一堆媒體的報導我真的不曉得他們在寫什麼東西啦第一個那個保姆是掛在那個居托中心下嘛那按照這個兒少法26條第三項的規定以及直轄市縣市政府居家托育服務中心執行業務處理原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6801.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6811.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
其中有一個重要的法定任務是那個保姆去照顧小孩但我們要有個機制去監督那個保姆我這樣說應該沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6814.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6835.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那個因為這個要記在立法院公報所以就請你yes or no就直接回答這樣立法院公報才可以因為你點頭那個議事人員無法記載你點頭那個保姆我們其實是由各縣市政府他的這個居家托育服務中心來做管理是嗎好那現在法條上面26條第三項他說監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6838.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6859.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
他可以自己做也可以委託相關的專業機構團體辦理那凱凱案這個案子的監督是台北市政府自己做還是委外做台北市政府他是委託民間團體來做委託哪一個民間團體新北市大愛關懷協會新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會怎麼進行監督新北市大愛關懷協會 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6868.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6880.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
第一個他給文山區的居托中心然後小孩交給他們下面的居家的保母去照顧嘛那我現在care的事情是因為我們今天竟然講 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6882.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6902.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
外部督導我老實講啊督導這兩個字我看不懂什麼叫督導我是法律人啊所以我一定回到法律權利義務關係才會清楚嘛在法律裡面規範的是監督那監督可以委託外部監督那您剛所講的是委託外部監督是由誰做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6902.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6924.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
委員我再說明一下就是說保姆是由文山區居家托育中心來監督這個保姆文山居家托育中心是由新北市大愛關懷協會接受台北市政府的委託來經營管理這個文山居托中心那誰負責監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6929.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6948.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
監督保姆嗎還是監督第一個是台北市政府他應該要負責監督文山巨頭中心因為依照我們兒圈法的第26條所以我剛才問你嘛再回到26條第三項在這個案子裡面監督這個事項有沒有委託外面的專業機構辦理有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6950.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6968.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
還是你不知道 你不知道就說不知道沒有關係他就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會來 對吧所以就回到這個問題所以要負責監督的是不是就是新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會他監督的範圍有哪些因為我今天看你們的書面報告這樣講可能有一點你聽了會不舒服 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6977.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7001.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我看不懂在寫什麼啦我真的看不懂在寫什麼啊監督可以委託外部的機構做那他就是要做監督嘛啊你整個書面報告把它寫的好像是一個外部的顧問啦有意見聽聽他的意見就好啦委員您對外督外督的工作跟這個新北這邊那個所委託的單位做的所謂監督是不一樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7001.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7027.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我知道所以我回到這邊的監督來看現在我沒有要指涉對定的委員我已經說了我今天來這邊質詢不是來做政治攻防的是要把我們的社會安全網到底怎麼建構在法規上面的權利義務把它搞清楚這個是我今天站在這邊質詢的理由因為凱開的案子大家除了憤怒除了要重懲絕大多數的人關心的是不要再出現下一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7028.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7036.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
所以我才問嘛回到這個個案來加以檢討那個監督你是說有委託一個大愛關懷中心來做外部監督嗎對這樣說應該沒有錯嘛那個外部的大愛大愛關懷協會他要怎麼進行監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7044.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7071.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
他第一個他自己內部有督導所以他的督導應該要監督他的訪視輔導員剛剛我們有講居多中心要辦理的這些業務他都是應該是他們內部要督導的在這個案子裡面剛剛您所講的外部監督單位的那一個所謂內部的督導他有沒有盡到內部督導的責任對這件事情就是台北市政府他應該也要督導是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7073.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7099.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我們層次一樣一樣來我從來沒有說台北市政府可以免責我現在在追究的事情是監督的工作已經委託一個外部的機構你現在跟我講說外部的機構他有內部的督導跟外部的督導我的理解沒有錯嘛在凱凱這個案子裡面內部的督導有做到他該做的工作嗎這個是我的問題還是到現在你們也不知道他有沒有做到他該做的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7101.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7102.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
我剛不是在講仿事 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7122.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7139.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
的指引就是說仿似的評伺這不是我在問的問題仿似的評伺其實如果說他評伺足夠像這樣子的特殊出養兒我還是回到這個案子他內部的督導有沒有做到他該做的事情有就有 沒有就沒有這個事情就這麼簡單還不知道就說不知道嘛我希望他們可以做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7140.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7161.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
他們有沒有做到?有還是沒有?還是不知道?根據記錄他們有去做這個仿事輔導員有去仿事但是我們認為這樣子的一個敏感的狀況也許他就跨縣市他的仿事評次還有仿事的強度應該要加強所以妳意思是他做得不夠好嗎?可以這樣講 如果要這樣說那他的外部督導做得好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7162.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7171.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
外部督導要看這個居托中心要求或者是請外部督導來協助的是哪些案子好 那以這個案子來講外部督導該做哪些事 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7172.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7193.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
外部督導其實在外督的立場上來講事實上就是協助員來機構內部不論是他的這個社工或者是仿事員尤其是社工他在他的功能專業職能上的提升所以他沒有負責監督他感覺起來是比較是教育性質顧問性質心理扶植性質的是這樣嗎是這樣子的外部督導有意義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7195.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7217.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
外部督導事實上是長期以來在社工我們為了加強社工面對多元儲育很複雜的這些工作的情況之下能夠增加以及同時也給予社工一人的支持要給社工外部的資源支持我百分之一百都贊成我百分之一百都贊成這個立場先講好但是我還是回到我的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7218.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7243.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們要避免下一次悲劇發生每一個人該做什麼事情權責要很清楚如果現在劃定的權責如果現在劃定的權責不適當的話該改就改嘛為什麼我一開始強調這是一個政府委託的外部監督機構法條的功能就是要做監督嘛那監督機構你說那這個監督機構有內部督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7246.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7262.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
有外部督導內部督導沒有做好所以我才問你他的外部督導該做哪些工作因為我在法規上面完全看不到啊那你如果說今天我們對任何一個工作要有內控外控 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7264.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7292.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們就是擔心內控沒有做好才要做外控嘛但你們今天提出來的報告讓我沒有覺得根本沒外控啊有跟我們報告剛剛林月琴委員也要求我們在一定時間之內把外督應該林月琴委員要求你們什麼事情喔沒有 林月琴委員要求你們什麼事情是林月琴委員的質詢嘛現在我在質詢的是我的問題嗎跟您報告就是我們會去界定外督他在跟相關委託單位之間的權責義務需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7293.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7315.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們盡速來演你盡速是多久?這個事情發生非常久了我們是不是可以讓我們跟社工這邊再去跟社工了解社工們的需求以及執行所以這個問題意識你們是最近才發生最近才發現有這個問題意識報告員剛跟您報告了在去年事情發生之後我們事實上就訂定了直轄市跟縣市政府居托服務中心的訪視原則讓原來應該去做訪視輔導員的部分可以落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7319.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7343.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
對 那我剛剛講的是外部督導的部分啦所以我問你們的問題是你是到最近才知道我這個問題意識嗎外部督導本來他負責的事實上就是來作為原來機構的備援跟強化對不起 你還是沒有回答我的問題剛好問你要多久啊你說你需要去跟人家討論所以我才問你說你有這個問題意識多久了嘛啊你如果到現在還需要去跟人家討論這件事情的話代表是你現在才有這個問題意識嘛我有說錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7347.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7350.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
需要多久 委員我們認同我們系統性來檢討那我們剛剛是不是說兩個月我們兩個月會把這個相關的權責還有委託機構之間的權希望盡快 希望盡快 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員 謝謝次長那繼續我們請劉建國委員質詢那在圖前級委員質詢完畢後我們休息8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7373.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7382.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
好 謝謝召委 召委辛苦了齁 休息八分鐘來請次長 議事司 今天有誰來怎麼委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7388.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7417.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
是,市長早,意思是為什麼是你來,不是副市長來?副市長請病假請病假,好副市長休假,對不起,我們是另外一個同仁,對不起,休假我們另外一個同仁受傷,所以但是副市長有事,所以請休假意思是有事請休假副市長,副市長也是那副市長不用來,那市長應該可以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7419.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7420.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
今天這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7422.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7450.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
雖然是次長來嘛,但是這個是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7451.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7467.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色劇團裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7469.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7482.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7484.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7507.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
那麼現在只能查詢醫事人員的職業縣市為了得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是是是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7508.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7531.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
現在可以做慷慨的就是有在市長那邊這樣對啊 但是你們自己有說你們的部長跟你們的市長有說一句話醫事司林業平市長也回應現行早已握有醫師名單要不要公佈都很快但因需在法律之下討論公佈到什麼範圍為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的 1月份1月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7535.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7550.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來 市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講 建設平台公布名單可嚴厲那市長講什麼話 應需在法律之下來討論 公布到什麼範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7558.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7575.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7575.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7603.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性評調查那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們議事司的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7606.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7631.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
這不依據嗎議事懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行議事懲戒委員會或是議事懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的議事公會嘛議法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對 判決一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7634.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7659.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
判決一樣 判決有對啊 為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論 我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長 次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外 我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦 也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7660.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7682.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員好他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會在為難你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講的這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經五二一了這個平台沒有困難吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7688.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7704.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
呃 一個月內可以吧一個月內 跟委員報告齁 我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們報告 不是給我報告 不是不 你要反而我就找反而給你的啊再跟委員報告齁 就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7708.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7734.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思嘛所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到我找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7735.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7756.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接觸了是接觸出來出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7757.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7782.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢 那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有封堆重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居都內的名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7783.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7808.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
案發後凱凱死後三個月 雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎 薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦 我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失 但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央助理機關 次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎 接受處分應該衛福部沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7808.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7811.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7830.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7843.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
當時為何不得回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是怎麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對好 董事長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7845.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7859.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
應該這樣講後就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或這樣僵硬數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7860.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7887.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫經濟保護制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保護計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7890.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7904.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先真辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7905.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7906.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7923.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7940.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦 所以他認為他想要還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7942.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7962.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
應該這樣講我們 你要再提他講我聽你講 你只要跟我說 我跟你講就是剛剛我們講的我們其實上海主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟精進事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的精進保母制度 為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7964.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7974.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啊我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你說你不用建制名單嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7979.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8005.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相克能夠連結起來對 我簡單講嘛在拐個彎回來嘛 對不對他們是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛 不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8007.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8028.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫 其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討 不需要有人負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8029.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8047.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8050.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8078.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布7.1改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8081.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8108.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的分要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8110.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8136.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱凱案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8137.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8152.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之? |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8153.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8174.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
還是真的你們沒有做 講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛 是分級訪視嘛 對不對要是要等一等 看這個什麼規定都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8179.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8195.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我來澄清這不是要澄清 他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市 根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔 就會產生障礙一直在障礙中沒有 我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8196.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8217.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次公告再來做一次對外的我覺得市長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能內部要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝碎 還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8218.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8240.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市是否有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三是否又能有例行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8254.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8282.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
好 謝謝我們劉建國委員那下一位請我們蘇清淺委員好 謝謝主席我請次長還有台大院長好 請我們次長跟我們台大議員吳院長委員好好 次長辛苦了吳院長已經被叫來第二次了辛苦了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8284.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8310.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好我問吳院長你們台大院員工現在員額是多少人我們自己的包括公職加院聘有八千多位但是我們還有外包人員大概三千多所以大概是一萬一到一萬二左右一萬一啦包括新竹啦這些分院都只有單單台大總院那你的主管你都認識嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8313.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8339.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
醫療的主管跟醫師的主管主管的家裡的人或者家裡的狀況你知道嗎某些可能知道 某些沒有所以你這些依主管級就好了你對他們個人的性別傾向性格 能力 能力應該知道其他的要去了解我看人才非常難 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8341.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8353.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
所以那個伯克萊大學的校長講一句話說我們學校的那些教職員我就要管脖子以上管脖子以上,腦袋瓜比較重要對國家有貢獻喔那你要看什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8359.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8372.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
就是我管理我的這些行政主管一般來講我們可以有從華的層次跟秦跟李的層次那我同意我只能 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8373.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8391.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
就是我們看得到而且法有規定的這一步我是可以做因為我常常跟我們同仁講在台大醫院即使你做到院長跟任何一個機構一樣我不是私人的所以我必須要有法可依有法可循而且我要依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8392.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8416.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
最後一個是違法避救所以這16字是我自己在做院長對自己的期許那我對所有的主管我也是這樣子的要求所以你也是屬於台北市衛生局管轄嘛所以一下子要跳到外部也是很奇怪啦所以醫師性騷性騷真的有刑事的責任很重嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8422.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8437.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
在沒有現在還沒有修法以前他就是用信憑三法裡面都沒有都是行政處罰那你還刑事上沒有判刑那你這邊可以給他解職嗎沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8439.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8458.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
你沒有在管理嘛我沒有在管理我沒有在管理我們法律也是要保障然後衛生局這邊醫師公會要給他送懲戒也可以是誰來界定是那個林姓姓交辦就把他抓起來是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8460.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8484.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
不是 就是我們有一個很清楚就是說醫師假如真的根據醫師法不管是第25條他一戶懲戒的發動主體是醫師公會或主管機關所以只有醫師公會或衛生局可以那醫師公會要處理是你們要送還是送不送 不能送啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8485.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8508.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以現在是可以主動 根據還沒有修法的性平三法其實我們要送的是 主管單位是社會局所以之前大家關心的幾個案子 我們也都是根據這樣子去送因為發生的時候是還沒有修法 性平三法之前所以萬一 絕對是依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8508.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8535.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
但是並不代表說發生這麼遺憾的事情我們就沒有改進的空間我想今天立法院已經是我們國家的最重要的一個機構那這也顯示說其實我們不管怎麼樣都要根據法來做因為法才能夠保障最多數人的權益第二個是只要依法來做才不會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8535.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8552.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
有些人可能沒有程序好 那現在就把事情我們釐清啦您台大醫院發生這個性騷的案件不管是醫生啦各個角落都會發生啦各個單位都會發生啦你有一萬多個元額或加上你們新竹啊加上雲林啊 加到我們就萬人啊萬五六個啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8555.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8581.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那你們自己有一個信憑委員會嘛有沒有 議員表嘛那信憑委員會有做出決議之後是不是就把這個案子也送直接送台北市醫事公會然後台北市醫事公會有一個委員會嘛他估計說要送懲戒因為應該是由委員會來決定嘛你不能說你吳院長你爽你就給他判定那不可能的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8582.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8595.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那我們的林市長他更沒有資格講啦對不對你在衛福部你是獨島單位嘛所以你再上社會局他又要再上台北市議事館也很奇怪啊所以你又不能一個流程齁市長流程比較簡化的你要怎麼做不是只有不是只有醫師啊到處醫院到處都會發生啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8606.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8630.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
市報委員其實我們也因為這個事情我們目前正在檢討接下來就是包含各醫事人員的部分是不是要有一個比較明確因為他閃在各個法裡面但是我們還是藉這個機會再強調因為我們144也有相關的業務就是對於性騷擾防治的宣導所以不論是在性平三法內部修法之後已經給予這個主管機關以及相關這個負責人的權限這個部分其實應該是可以充分運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8631.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8647.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
那再來的話就是剛剛提到的醫師懲戒這邊我們也希望說懲戒委員會能夠就是開醫師懲戒的這個會上能夠考慮到醫師在整個社會尤其是接觸病人這件事情上面道德上應該有的要求跟標準應該要更嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8648.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8674.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
所以你們的性評委員應該有職責也要這個案子要不要送懲戒就你們自己去決定然後再譬如說你們台北市醫師公會台北市藥師公會台北市什麼公會他們在接受這個案子之後他們在開會要不要懲戒要上幾個小時要停職要停職職業半年等等那是他們的職責啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8675.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8685.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
然後結果再反給你們嘛那個是行政上跟懲戒上的處罰那至於刑責上 那是刑責上那個遙遙無期啊破到來的婚姻啊 對不對這樣是不是可以走 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8691.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8709.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
謝謝委員指導一條明路啦 這個確實是我們這樣最簡單啦 最明確啦對 而且我們其實那個信憑委員會也有外部的委員不是都是議員有律師啊 有教授 社工人 社會人士嘛 等等嘛所以這樣會比較明快啦 不然的話每次人家講這個我講不清啊說不清楚啊 說到社長社長就說 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8715.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8739.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們還是希望我們當然是說在法律是法律是道德的最低底線那醫事人員尤其醫師我相信教會也是這樣選擇就醫師我們事實上在那個道德的要求尤其是如果就是所侵害的對象就是自己的病患的話我相信這個是我們大家所不能容許的而且那個婦產科要是高危險科 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8741.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8762.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那也再藉這個機會補充就是說那你也是入獄長出來那當然其實在我們這個門診隱私維護的這個規範裡面本來就有要求在跟病患接觸的過程中要保障病人隱私那另外的話也要有對於病人一定程度的這些保障包含說可能要有其他人的陪伴等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8762.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8784.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所以這個事實上在現有的法規內部我還是在強調現有法規是最低標準那大家我想在不論是在主管機關或者是在這個所執業單位醫院的主管等等都可以援引現有的性平三法還有醫師法跟醫師懲戒辦法但是在行為還有整個在運作的過程我想委員也知道住院醫師如果是住院醫師還在受訓的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8786.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8802.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這個其實老師對他我們要給你什麼樣我在訓練上面要額外要求你什麼事實上是還有一定程度的權限而且現在的住院醫師要去考專科醫師之前還有一本這個訓練的護照他要完成相關的這些訓練才能夠去考專科那在這個過程裡面如果師長認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8804.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8823.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
在這個所謂應該學這些護照還學的不夠或者是我沒有讓你完成我因為我認為你必須要暫停你的學習來做其他的調查或者是重新把你的能力建立起來那事實上還是有一定的工具可以做啦還是可以要約束力啦好那我另外吳院長你請回我請次次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8828.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8854.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
現在很多單位來反映就是物理治療師OT、PT、藥師連醫師第一階段考試的錄取率都很低尤其是我給他看OT跟PT最近幾年的考照及格率都不到20%不到20%那我們教育的目的訓練的目的一般是 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8856.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8863.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
訓練從嚴 考試從寬要嘛就是訓練從寬 考試從嚴那現在長照3.0要開始了喔屬下這麼多人有這些書現在要把中醫中藥商都把他幹掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8872.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8899.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那需要更多的藥師還有中藥的學分補足等等那你藥師的考週率也都不低這個就有點有點奇怪奇怪的餒 次長這是要怎麼解決啦謝謝委員關切啦因為第一個事情我們接下來面對高齡跟少子化本來人力上面就會逐漸的遇到這個挑戰那也謝謝委員提到這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8899.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8921.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那我自己以前是立委的時候其實我就注意過這個然後他包含幾個這個是前面的教考用嗎交的有沒有符合臨床的需求這點當然我們會持續來跟教育部來做這個討論因為這個是在教育部的權責第二個就是考那其實過去在考試院的考試裡面有一部分臨床的人員也反映過科企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8922.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8922.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
對啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8949.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8954.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
我現在看醫師考試的砲案第一階段的課題目很深深的專科醫師考試的題目你要說委員那麼厲害命題委員那麼厲害我來出給他考我保證他不及格 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8966.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8988.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那有這樣幹的啦藥師也是一樣啊八萬的考試考到這麼基礎的藥理都考到那麼難我是覺得有點吹毛求疵有點故意整人所以這個次郎你現在到考選部要來喝那像護理他也現在多考一次嘛是護理多考一次那其他的都考兩次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8988.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9007.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
當然我們在兼顧這個專技人員的品質上面我們還是得要求啦但是我們也希望他考試訓考能夠符合臨床的需求對啦 當然是一定要追尋要有教但是不然我們被人家刁難課的12% 課到小孩都要沒信心去啦現在小孩子又不像我們現在小孩子用鼓勵的脖子這樣戴著素絲 怎麼會沒有這樣一直忽 一直忽 大家都課不過去我覺得 我無法接受這種 市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9018.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9020.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
好 謝謝蘇慶乾委員好 謝謝圖委員 接續圖委員來質詢他質詢完畢休息8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9046.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9048.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
好 謝謝主席 那請我們次長委員好 次長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9056.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9076.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對內同案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9076.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9087.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9090.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9117.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9118.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9130.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
對 所以那在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9132.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9152.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9155.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9169.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
訪視指引的分級我們去年公告的訪視指引也就是說假設他第一個事情是他在這個訪視的過程中他要嚴謹的來做一個訪視跟輔導另外的話他要採取不預約而且安排不同的時段去訪視 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9171.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9190.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
这个才比较能够看到他真实的状况另外的话就是针对特殊需求譬如说他是发展迟缓的儿童出养的儿童家外的安置儿童或收拖任何一个儿童已有照顾风险或持续有受伤的情况的话那我们请地方的社会局要增加他的访视次数那是他的特殊情况可以再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9191.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9209.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9212.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9241.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9242.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9255.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
對 其實這剛剛我大概有瞭解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請 找這個保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9259.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9285.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
對 文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛 對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對 所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們 我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9287.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9304.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒盟找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山居托中心來負責管理那文山居托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個居托中心所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9305.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9323.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9324.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9350.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9351.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9380.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9382.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9401.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
所以我剛剛講說這個檢視法人紀錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9402.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9418.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9419.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9434.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9436.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9463.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9465.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9477.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
所以我說聽起來像顧問有問題才去問他比較是他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9478.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9497.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9500.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9511.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9515.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9535.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9538.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9561.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以它是結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候法治的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9563.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9574.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9576.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9603.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現打孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9604.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9608.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9623.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9648.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
有打算要离婚也聘了律师处理这个离婚事件所引发的这个额虐所以我觉得这还是有一些疏失啦那对太太都有暴力倾向那离婚以后太太不在那她是不是就转接到小孩子身上是如果按照常理通常法院在裁判离婚的时候会针对孩子的监护权做另做处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9648.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9671.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防綜藝治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9672.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9695.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9696.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9714.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9714.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9726.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那当然外部督导这边我们另外是协助就是说他是六人以下本身机构这个配置比较小的机构我们来协助他们有一个外督来协助原来没有办法有内督的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9727.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9744.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9750.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9774.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆或者是暴力傾向那離婚之後他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9775.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9790.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9791.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9809.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
如果照我們今天的報告這樣來寫我是感覺是不是避重就輕但是我們希望事情發生了看如何去補救 權責怎麼去處理訪視一定要確切那督導後續的工作處理情形一定要落實來追蹤謝謝委員指導好 謝謝謝謝市長 謝謝圖委員現在休息半分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9826.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9833.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10486.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10513.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
好我們繼續開會等一下在林淑芬委員執行完畢之後我們處理臨時提案啊你會想咧改書面喔那來林淑芬委員執行別說太久了好謝謝主席喔是不是請我們林次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10521.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10548.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
市長其實台大住院醫師的性侵這個個案事實上在一發生的時候不管是醫院地方北市衛生局或者是我們中央新聞剛出來的時候都是用醫事法第25條第二款要判刑確定才會送懲戒然後這種法律概念大家都覺得荒謬無比 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10549.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10574.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
然後醫師利用這個醫療職務機會而犯罪事實上同時已經也違背了這個醫療倫理那如果有高度社會矚目立法院排案要報告了次長就改口了就是說不用第二款我們要叫你回答你們當時出來的新聞稿新聞大家都看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10577.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10604.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
當時所有的第一時間地方衛生局、中央、衛福部、醫院、僱主通通都是用要判刑確定或移送懲戒都一開始都是這樣子所以你今天當然是改口了因為今天要到立法院來報告怎麼可以不改口那我不是說這樣子不行而是執行業務違背醫學倫理我現在要問你是說第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10606.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10625.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
有沒有統計這五年醫師因為妨害性自主案件而依據醫師法第25條第二款利用業務機會的犯罪行為經判刑確定而移送懲戒的案例數有多少 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10626.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10642.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第二個第四款因為執行業務違背醫學倫理而移附懲戒的案例數又有多少這五年內你可以告訴我這個數字嗎報告委員我這邊就是說這五年五年內的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10644.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10663.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
看一下現在是好五年內的話我們在110年他是有一位醫師是依照醫師法二十就是我們講的二十五條第二懲戒法二十五條第二款廢止他的醫師證書那另外一個案子我再問你數數量就好了我現在手頭上你不用移 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10664.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10686.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
你不用跟我一一的報告問你這五年內因為妨礙性自主喔然後判刑確定被醫送懲戒或者是用第四款更寬鬆的被醫學輪迷而交付懲戒的案件數有多少你就告訴我就好了我手上這個資料是姓平的案子的話這邊是1234 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10690.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10698.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我是第二款第四款分開的你為什麼要這樣子回答第二款是判刑確定的一送懲戒有幾個第四款因為違背醫學倫理而交付懲戒的個案有幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10709.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10736.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們這邊這幾案多數都是這一個包含性投訴性騷擾案然後懲戒那其中有幾個個案有三個個案是判決之後以第二款來移送懲戒你講的是多久的時間以內最近對三年內三年內對有判刑確定交付懲戒的有三個判刑確定的案子在我現在手上的資料裡面110年有一位判刑確定的案子然後在 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10739.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10756.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
111年的那個就是現在正在7月份台北市政府要召開懲戒會另外一個是111年的那個也是在因為這個案子已經提出為什麼這種問題要回答的這樣2266呢那因為被醫學倫理而交付的有幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10758.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10773.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
違背醫學倫理的案子我們現在手上沒有這樣的資料對嘛 所以嘛你們全部都是等到判刑確定才會交付審計啦你們的標準就是要判刑確定啦今天醫事司司長為什麼沒有來我們要講這些問題是說狼醫啊就是由群體依依相互相怨包庇出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10787.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10794.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
你們都用最低的標準一定要踩到刑責確定了才願意交付懲戒你們就是這樣子啊我要跟你講這個案子我要講一個我們地方三窮的故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10804.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10829.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你們掌握說因為妨礙性自主案件的醫生在司法判決以前都可以繼續執業啊所以有一個叫孔凡錦精神科醫師這個個案你有聽說過嗎孔凡錦 後來已經被我們廢止醫師證書你不要這樣講在他在他被你們吊罩以前啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10831.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10851.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
發生了第一件是2021年的4月16號在診間強制性交然後呢 三個月不到他再次犯下利用權勢性交而且被害者是16歲以上未滿18歲的少女 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10853.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10878.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
兩岸最後當然是判決有罪但是呢 他是幾年才判決有罪 你知道嗎2024年在2021到2024年之間他沒有裁定前孔繁井仍然繼續執業而且還遭人檢舉他的孔繁井的這個診所名稱改名為同安診所 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10878.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10900.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
而且用他哥哥的名字孔繁中去掛名但是實際看整個還是孔繁井所以呢這代表什麼代表說在司法判決以前沒有定業以前你奈何不了他可是事實上不是喔法律法律有工具欸可以讓你們在判決以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10904.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10924.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
就可以去給他移送懲戒孔梵琴醫師這個案子事實上在112年8月2號精神科醫學會就通知新北市衛生局來啟動這個醫師懲戒所以後來是在112年8月18日我覺得你不要把責任說是地方政府的問題啦中央跟地方都一樣因為上刑下校你們就是這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10926.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10943.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
你從中央你今天才可以跟大家跟各地方衛生局宣示不用刑事判決就可以移送懲戒這個公文你發的出去嗎你可以發出去嗎我們可以再一次提醒大家依照醫師法第五條好那我就等著看你這張公文因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10945.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10961.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
社會沒有辦法接受司法判決才可以移送懲戒更不要講法律明明有規定而主管機關從中央到地方都刻意要選擇判刑確定才要移送懲戒那我現在要跟你講喔政大法學院劉鴻恩副教授他有講過委員他曲解我的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10967.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10989.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
國外 我都還沒講他講什麼 你不要這麼緊張 認為劉鴻恩曲解你劉鴻恩有沒有曲解你我不知道 但我現在講劉鴻恩現在我想是他的制度面他怎麼說國外醫生利用診療機會性侵病患 只要是被檢舉甚至是還沒有被判刑但依照主管機關或公會調查的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10991.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11003.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
就已經先被停業處分、調扣執照、吊銷執照的案例不生沒舉而且重點就在這裡醫師的資料只要你涉案了都公開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11004.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11023.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
美國紐澤西州一名婦產科醫生因為診療時不當觸摸病患還沒有判刑就先吊扣執照同樣的在紐澤西州2025年2月兩個醫師因為在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為沒有判刑就被吊銷執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11024.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11041.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
加拿大安大略省的一個醫師在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為所以在沒有判刑的狀況就被調供執照美國的阿拉巴馬州對於病人診療時有性方面的不當行為沒有判刑就被調校執照劉鴻恩他這裡沒有講他攻擊你我現在講他講 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11047.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11063.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他說 證據調查有很多種 刑事責任的刑法責任當然需要刑事司法的調查但是不是只有刑事責任一種耶這個行為涉及到行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11066.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11081.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不一定要透過司法調查我們的法律裡面像民事責任民事責任需不需要司法調查完成才能夠進行民事責任的審理就你所知道的需要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11082.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11101.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以其實也跟我們報告就是說像相關的這幾個案子其實包含我們之前我們在大院也通過的性平三法以醫師來說他所在職業過程中所發生的這些不當的行為不論是在性別工作平等法性別平等教育法或者是性騷擾防治法都移送懲戒了嗎 都移送懲戒了嗎對 但是你們都給他移送懲戒了嗎 沒有 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11107.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11112.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
你們剛才講的數據你自己講的一清二楚都是刑事判決才移送懲戒這五年裡面你講不出來一涉案沒有經過刑事判決行政責任倫理責任還有我們剛剛講的懲戒責任都沒有被究責到都沒有移送到懲戒會去懲戒所以我就跟你講台灣光是司法制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11134.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11152.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
台灣的司法制度的民事訴訟都不需要等到刑事判決才可以才需要負起民事責任 沒有這個東西是一樣的道理如果你們是用一個比較高的標準它是等於利用職務 利用執行業務去對人家性侵性騷耶這不是道德倫理了這是法律上都踩到界限了 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11158.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11174.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
對不對 行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任 刑法責任各自有不同的要件和認定標準所以呢各自的調查程序和懲戒的標準程序都不會一樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11175.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11197.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以你們現在看到的實務面從中央到地方就是要求判決後才要移送懲戒你們的不成文規定就是這樣子啊你剛才五年內的統計你沒有辦法說出一件涉案就交一副懲戒會的沒有你剛才的統計資料就是沒有你在這裡嘴巴說你沒有這麼認為你們實務面都是這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11204.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11209.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
而你還在這裡嘴巴硬不願意承認當你承認你們有這個問題當你們承認有這個問題你承認然後你說你們未來會改進那麼我們是可以接受的你現在是我們沒有我們通通都沒有你現在就是說我通通都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11224.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11235.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
內部處理太過保守而且其實也在借這個機會因為接下來在7月份台北市衛生局要針對三位醫師的狀況來開懲戒我們也借這個機會希望大家在懲戒的過程能夠有一個比較有效的作用我再問你一個問題 職業婦產科有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11240.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11260.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
郎醫只有婦產科有嗎?精神科、兒科的郎醫就算派行以後還仍然繼續職業你們還沒收了民眾的知情權今天要討論的是到婦產科醫師這個看診大家都提心吊膽但是你知道有個兒科醫師2022年濟姓男醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11264.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11293.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
是一個女童的主治醫師 兒科的一時誤想利用而女童求診時為女童與陪同母親實施心臟超音波檢查疑似多次手持超音波探頭 以手抓住碰觸乳房乳頭的方式為猥褻行為涉及猥褻行為法院審理也判刑了七個月緩刑兩年 但判刑七個月緩刑兩年 但 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11294.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11321.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
沒有吊銷醫生執照沒有這個醫師懲戒他們後來做成的決議是警告我們也認為事實上希望大家能夠針對這樣尤其是未成年個案事實上醫界應該要有更強的自律才對我們要的是知情權我以後要去看醫生我都要先到衛福部的官網上去看這個醫生有沒有交付懲戒的紀錄這個醫生有沒有這個涉及這個刑事案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11322.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11347.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
而且更何況兒少法規定49條是97條猥褻兒童得公佈加害人性命我們更嚴謹的狼獅兒虐幼保員有定期公開的機制甚至涉及到性別不當對待的事件會處以終身或幾年內不可任用也沒有辦法進到教保機關繼續服務可是你們對狼醫 狼醫對兒童猥褻 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11351.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11359.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
你們是輕輕放下而且還能夠繼續持續的看診服務而且查不到 查詢不到我們性侵案零容忍你們這個平台雖然是在野黨委員提的但也是衛黃委員會通過的你們承諾人家要建置一個平台你們沒有完成就算了其實還繼續在包庇這種狼醫你們就是狼醫的包庇的當兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11381.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11402.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就不要講說要法律授權有法律授權啊 而受法有沒有法律授權 有沒有請問你們公佈在哪裡所以這幾個案子我們會全面的以而受法規定要加害者的名字都要公佈你們有公佈嗎 沒有因為他是醫生 所以不用公佈如果他是教保員或是狼屍 就要公佈了但醫生 請請放下 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11407.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11431.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
不是嗎 你們的醫事查詢系統也可以優化你們醫事查詢系統 因為我們要去看婦產科醫師要內診 有時候要麻醉 會昏迷我不知道醫生會對我做什麼 我也很害怕我可不可以上網去查詢一下這個醫生有沒有前科有沒有移動懲戒 有沒有涉及連兒少的也都可以看得到啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11432.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11461.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以你可以在這個既有的醫事查詢系統去優化可是你看你們的醫事查詢系統你們的醫事查詢系統大概只能證明說他是一個有合格執照的醫師吧網路上有姓名人員類別職業的縣市如果同一個縣市兩個同名同姓職登科別類別都一樣我要怎麼辨認哪一個是狼醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11463.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11472.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
哪一個是我要查詢的那個我在乎的醫師好等一下慢慢來沒關係那我又就用這個查詢網站為基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11473.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11492.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
如果 我再問你第二個問題同名同姓 同科別都一樣我怎麼確認哪個是哪個 第一個第二個這個網站裡面如果醫事人員犯案以後甚至遭到判刑以後沒有被你們吊銷執照改名了 改名了我怎麼查詢他啊改了名就海闊天空了 人生重來了他改名了就不會對病患繼續上下起手嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11502.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11510.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我不知道我們的知情權你們給我們的知情權是要是怎麼樣是這種沒好的查詢系統而且重點不在這裡喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11519.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11536.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
重點還有一個喔改名以外還有一個喔你們自己在上面的說明英式查詢系統的類別上就是一個笑話民眾在網頁上可以得到完整的資訊嗎事實上是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11537.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11563.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
你們網頁最底下的說明民眾查詢到的都是醫事人員同意放置的項目這網站不是完整的資訊你看到的資訊都是因為這些醫事人員同意給你看 你才看得到醫事人員不想給你看 你就看不到所以你們有提醒大家如果你要去查查看這是不是狼醫 有沒有記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11564.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11593.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
如果你在網頁上查詢不到不代表這個人不是醫事人員所以這是不是很荒謬?次長有沒有很荒謬?會不會醫事人員查詢系統不管是否查詢得到都在有或沒有之間所以連他有沒有執照無照醫師滿街跑也查詢不到啊無照醫師不會在這上面因為這上面必須要有執照然後有直登你怎麼那麼好笑有照的醫師不在這上面才好笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11596.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11618.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
吳趙醫師當然不在這上面但你的好笑荒謬是有趙醫師也可以不在上面你有趙醫師不在上面所以你查詢的這個人到底是有趙吳趙不知道那我請問你你自己的名字為什麼不在上面因為我現在停業陳時中為什麼在上面因為他現在可以 羅益君為什麼在上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11619.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11644.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我現在在衛福部所以我停業 蘇清泉為什麼在上面陳金輝為什麼在上面因為你不想被人家查詢啦報告委員我不是 是因為我現在是停業我沒有職業登記所以我現在不能在上面那陳時中有嗎這我不清楚他有職業登記喔 那有沒有違規違法羅益君也有欸蘇清泉有 陳金輝也有你們都還在看著有職業登記喔委員的話是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11647.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11674.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
所以我現在要跟你講說啊因為各種因素沒職業的所以我講說各種因素啊你今天司法卡案在上面你也是查不到所以你可以利用這種不想公開來掩飾你無法職業的問題我要去查詢某某某他是不是涉案然後你上面跟人家說明說查不到不代表他沒有醫師執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11676.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11697.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
因為他可以公開也可以不公開你這個制度沒問題嗎改了名以後的狼醫怎麼辦這制度沒問題嗎你給我們的只有這樣子就只有這個簡單的資料這樣子不用精進嗎如果對兒受犯以性侵害需要公開你上面也查詢不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11698.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11720.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
這沒有問題嗎你自己說這樣都沒有問題嗎不用改進嗎不用進進嗎一定要改進這次報告委員我還是一再強調醫事人員尤其是醫師在持續的繼續教育過程中都有相關的性別平等或者是相關性騷擾防治等等的學分那再來醫事機構本身基於性別工作平等法跟性騷擾防治法也有針對我現在不在講醫事機構跟醫療人員我現在講的是衛福部的這個網頁這個網站這個平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11727.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11745 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
是衛福部的責任所以跟我們報告就是說因為之前一月份的時候部長也有承諾我們要有一些公開的網頁資訊所以這個部分部長日夜晚回來之後我會跟他盡速把這個部分做起來你現在知道有公開了一月到現在了已經多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11746.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11765.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
醫改團體說你們這個網頁查詢門檻很高 民眾難自保只可以查到醫事人員的職業縣市 無法得知職業資格是否還有效職業資格有效才會在上面因為他可以不登啊他不登的話 民眾上去看找不到 民眾要懷疑他那就是意思他們沒有 你上面告訴人家是 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11767.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11792.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
也就是說他 理化紅線的再看一遍職業中的醫事人員同意放置的才給予公開如果沒有查到不代表此人不為醫事人員你這句話不就笑話 你還能夠講得出來查詢不到的 理論上查詢不到應該全部都是無照的可是你 你的制度讓他們可以閃躲躲在有照的但是不想公開的人的後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11794.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11816.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
就是承認你們不足 承認有錯誤承認你們做得不好 就是這樣子而已所以呢沒有辦法得知資格 懲處和判決紀錄懲戒紀錄四散各處 查詢不易 搜尋不到或是匿名 啊改名的咧 改名的咧民眾就醫治保 連改名就查不到 那改名的怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11818.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11833.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以其實還是要跟著他的職登跟職業職照的部分來講就改名啦改名啦他改了名字可是他的職登他還在啊所以到時候如果不公開資訊我怎麼會知道那個職登號嘛跟前一個是幾號一樣的我們在上面這個網站改名了 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11835.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11855.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
需要依法公開的資訊不需要修法的剛剛講的依須懲戒辦法第22條法院組織法第83條針對判決和懲戒確定的名單就屬於政府應公開的資料我剛剛講兒少裡面的也必要公開都不會違反任何法律都有法律授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11856.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11880.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那可不可以放進去 依照委員指導這些政府要求公開的資訊我們把它整在一起整合在這個平台可以嗎我們整在這個平台或是讓它在首頁能夠看得到是全統一如果這一塊這麼簡單這麼容易你們應作為而不作為就是行政怠惰而且距離部長1月要承諾的真的是很久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11881.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11908.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
英美各個國家都有建制公開平台除了醫師的資格背景職業的狀態還可以就近可進行的查詢有無紀律處分紀錄強化民眾自主的把關透過平台的建制也能夠強化醫界的自律更重要的是減低民眾對特定科別尤其是涉及隱私的科別不信任感和擔憂這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11911.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11922.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這個是很多好處的啊不是公開 大多數醫師都不會違規 不會違法大多數的醫師也樂於看到淘汰這些劣幣但是護短的體制是惡行的溫床啊護短的體制是惡行的溫床 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11932.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11949.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以性暴力零容忍政府跟醫界都不應該視而不見輕放拖延建制或優化這個平台的前提我們知道不影響醫師的清白但也需要在病人安全和隱私維護之間做權衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11951.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11969.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以要 這細節就是你要納入多細微你要邀請相關的利害團體大家一起來討論所以我們要一個知情權民眾就要一個知情權才能夠保障醫病雙方的權利給我們一個安心就醫的環境啊好 謝謝委員指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11971.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11988.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
會不會不如多久可以把這個平台優化好剛剛有委員要求我們在一個月內去把相關公開資訊的部分做規劃他剛剛沒有討論得很清楚我現在講得很清楚懲戒的移送懲戒的相關的法院判決的還有剛剛講的不是判刑確定你們過去五年光是違反議事倫理的沒有一件送懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11997.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12008.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這個標準 你要公文下去 告訴所有家 從中央到地方告訴這個國家所有的執法人員不是只有判刑確定好啦 謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝次長來 我們現在先處理臨時提案 總共有三案 疑病先讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12018.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12032.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
第一案現行醫師法第25條規定醫師有下列情勢之一者由醫師公會或主管機關一副懲戒二利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確定四執行業務違背醫學倫理 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12034.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12050.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
然現今各單位無法及時處理嚴重的為施原要求衛生福利部針對醫施法現行條文作出函釋序名違背醫學倫理之完整內涵以及因移送懲戒的明確時機與制度指引供各單位參考以維護醫病關係與醫療環境的正義與安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12056.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12072.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
提案人委員陳金輝 盧憲一 陳昭芝第二案有鑒於為解決我國醫學中心急診擁捨問題衛福部已於二月擬定三大短期因應策略分別為醫學中心強化院內病床調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12072.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12091.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
加強區域醫院聯防機制強化民眾分級就醫資訊至於兩大中長城改革方向則是強化護理人力整備及鼓勵醫院投入集中症研議健保調整給付然而考量該類措施發揮的政策效果不盡理想 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12092.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12113.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
特要求衛福部限期於二週內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交精進與檢討報告提案人委員陳金輝、盧憲一、蘇清泉第三案特決議衛生福利部應以將配比自二百億元提升至五百億元為目標來積極向行政院及行政院組織總處爭取藉以提升醫療韌性並完備透過全面推動擴大癌症篩檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12122.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12139.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
百億癌藥基金長照3.0升級健保財務改革等重大政策達成健康台灣之施政目標並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一蘇清泉宣讀完畢好請問第一案行政黨委員意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12149.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12162.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
主席衛福部這邊針對第一案的部分有些文字想要進行刪除就是倒數第五行各有關單位包含衛福部醫院與工會均有權 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12164.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12192.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
依法一副懲戒這幾個字我們需要把它刪除因為委員提案的本意是希望是說不要讓各位升級在一副懲戒的過程中會認為需要拘泥於這個第二款的判刑確定那這個這個訴求呢部裡面一定會照做那所以會建議說就以整個文案的明確性把這剛才所念的中間這個文字把它做刪除以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12194.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12217.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
主席我可以回覆一下嗎好可以這邊有找到一篇今年5月13號的新聞這個新聞就是因為剛講到的黃姓住院醫師事件因此衛福部表示已發文請地方衛生局啟動醫師懲戒委員會調查完成後最嚴重可能廢止醫師證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12218.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12222.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
就表示說其實你們自己就做了這件事情你們自己就發文給地方衛生局所以為什麼這句話是需要刪除的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12230.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12258.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
包括委員其實就是我們也希望說在原來的法律裡面規定的是這個工會跟地方主管機關來啟動這個懲戒那衛福部這邊是知悉這個判決之後我們來另外要求我們會希望在衛福部有機會知悉這個案子之前工會或者是地方主管機關就可以在他原來的這個性騷或者是性平三法的這個過程中他知悉這件事情就可以來啟動懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12261.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12287.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
是但因為這幾個禮拜有很多新聞事件當然是有提到說您說衛生局或者是衛福部不一定會通靈所以假使這個醫師公會或者是醫療院所他並沒有來揭露這些事情或是一眾懲戒的話這是你們也沒有辦法做的事情所以大家今天早上討論這麼多事這麼多希望可以補這些漏洞的地方不就是不就是為了這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12289.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12310.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以就像就跟刚刚委员报告就是说我们另外刚刚委员也知道就是我们卫福部会再发一个文给各地方卫生局跟工会提醒各相关的这个相关的工会跟地方的政府能够知道说假设他知悉这样的业务那他就应该可以来移送而不需要拘泥于第二款判刑确定这个部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12313.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12337.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
今天早上這個醫師公會全聯會他們可能是看到新聞所以他們就發了這個衛生福利部曾經發給他們一個函提到說如果醫學倫理客觀上都足以以執行醫師持物有關均可屬之但這個範圍是真的很大所以剛剛很多委員提到就是很怕說 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12339.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12355.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
您剛講到的他可能在這個地方工作或者是他跟這個地方的工會非常好所以我們才希望可以擴大可以移送懲戒的單位因為你還是你畢竟還是有可能會遇到這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12356.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12368.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
醫生懲戒單位這個是寫在醫師法第五條還有就是我們在應該這個是不是醫療法25條吧這個是醫師懲戒辦法吧醫師法第25條不是醫療法是不是委員這邊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12377.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12391.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
跟委員回報一下就是說我們因為之前醫食公會全聯會這邊針對這個性騷是不是適用這個違反醫學論理的部分曾經有含群微腐部所以我們在今年的4月22號我有在這裡對對對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12393.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12404.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我要講的是說因為這個案子在focus是在性騷的這樣子是不是適用違反醫倫的部分我們做出明確解釋那可是其實就像您剛才所說的違反醫學倫理其實範圍很大因為我們在的醫師倫理守則其實就是這麼大的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12412.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12432.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我把這份給你們我可以讓你們刪掉那句話可是呢其實早上議事公會就是跟我表達說他們對於這裡面的定義真的是困難的啦這個可以給你我想委員很清楚喔事實上這也是我們我想我們跟委員一樣我們都認同說在法律是最低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12433.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12461.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
一个最后道德的标准所以在原来医师法第25条医师有下列情势有医师公会或主管机关一副惩戒这边它事实上第二款的是利用业务机会犯罪经判刑确定但是我们也强调不论在第一款它的业务上有重大或重复发生过失行为第三款非属医疗必要过度用药或治疗行为第四款执行业务违背医学伦理或者是在第五款讲到的是第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12461.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12486.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
其他的这个业务上不正当行为其实这就是医事团体内部在专业上面会清楚的知道他的执行业务的这个模式这个方式事实上已经违反了已经违背了医学伦理这个是我们认为这个调整当然医事工会可以说他很不容易认定可是回过头来就是自己业内的人最清楚知道在医学伦理上面在执行业务过程中他的伦理是什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12487.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12513.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
他可以做什麼他不可以做什麼他應該做什麼應該是說就是因為他們是在同一個體系裡面因此他們就更難去做您提到的這個認定但我可以同意你們把這句話刪除但早上這個全聯會他們是希望說你們除了把這個解釋倫理的這個可不可以正式也函釋給所有的醫療機構也不是只有全聯會收到就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12514.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12531.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我們會再一次的把 包含醫師法還有醫師法第25條這邊所提到的部分還有相關的這個醫師懲戒辦法裡面這些文字全部都再一次的函給地方的主管機關跟工會好 謝謝謝謝委員次長我請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12537.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12562.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
各縣市的醫術公會、藥術公會等等他們是倫理委員會嘛他們沒有一個特別做一個懲戒委員會他要請衛生局召開懲戒委員會那是先送給各個縣市的醫術公會或藥術公會或什麼公會他們倫理委員會做完裁定之後是送給衛生局然後由衛生局來做懲戒是要這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12562.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12585.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
他們 一個的 他發現有這樣的事實 他有這樣的情勢事實上工會就可以直接把這樣他們所調查之後的資料交給地方衛生局交給地方衛生局 那地方衛生局就直接裁定裁定說要停職啦 或是啟動 啟動醫師懲戒委員會他們要召開 衛生局要召開懲戒委員會那到部裡面是沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12585.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12603.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
布是第二層就是如果地方的懲戒委員會懲戒完相關有一些爭議那我們這邊會啟動第二次的這等於是第二關好那第一案把那一段刪掉這樣大家有沒有意見可以 剛剛同意 下一位委員通過 第一案來 第二案行政單位沒有意見好我們配合辦理謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12617.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12627.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
第三案我們會積極來爭取那不過我們想至少我們會先確定這200億能夠來挹注我們在健保這邊的韌性跟醫藥的韌性也謝謝委員這邊提出來這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12645.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12665.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
主席你有什麼意見我再提一個案要藉的現在在經濟委員會那邊聯席剛剛跟次長有修改又有另外一個案所以大家一起來努力第三案就照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12670.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12677.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好那這樣臨時提案三件都處理完畢那接下來我們請陳慶輝委員質詢謝謝主席謝謝委員還有各位官員我們請林靜儀次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12704.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12733.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
市長您辛苦了當然很多新聞早上已經露出了所以我這邊紛紛的獲得了一些資訊這個我也非常的震驚因為這是昨天晚上的新聞不知道您是否有看到我們之前有發現但是您身為長久以來都是性評委員會的委員也是許多女醫師的偶像也很會經營社群我相信像我的流量可能不如您但是我已經收到很多女醫師很在意這件事您那邊應該也更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12735.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12740.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我是因為太忙所以我沒有去翻會訊但是今天早上記者來問我我才發現說1月 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12743.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12766.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
部長在這邊承諾說希望他們要改選理事長結果4月他大剌剌的發會訊說他身體康復了他要付出他要為婦產科學院貢獻另外他要帶30位年輕的醫師到日本去做交流還有做一些presentation等等的呃我不知道您是否他們應該快出發我不知道這是幾月幾號學會對學會理事長他現在要出國開會啦他現在要出國開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12772.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12798.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
但因為我有注意到其實次長之前對於權勢不對等的這種性騷你有做蠻多發文的我當然也驚呆了因為他放出來的這個list說有30位非常優秀的年輕醫師他要帶著他們去交流但你也可想而知我們也平常都開了很多國際學會嘛在這些場合會有蠻多權勢不對等是不是會有點擔心也想知道您 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12799.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12820.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
的相關處置後續會不會跟部長繼續追這件事情我想委員跟我我們都在同一個學會那這樣的事情的發生事實上對於專業的形象是非常非常大的傷害那事實上我相信從今年應該是一月份一直到現在部長跟我其實都持續有跟學會這邊做溝通就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12821.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12850.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
也希望學會這邊當然我們還是對於事件的調查以及後續法律上所賦予的相關的權利這個我們尊重但是我們也希望學會要能夠理解這是一個非常重要的影響到醫師生育而且它在醫學倫理上面甚至對於我們年輕醫師是一個很大的傷害的事件那我們也不斷的跟學會這邊溝通希望學會可以了解跟注意到不論是在性別的敏感度上面或社會的敏感度上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12850.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12870.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
要有更積極的處理因為記者揭露了這個會訊還有他們即將出國您是否今明兩天也會做一些動作其實我上禮拜就一直都在跟學會這邊說請他們要能夠注意到這件事情大家對於整個因為包含這整個事件的受害者也是我們自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12871.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12895.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
成員是我們自己的會員所以我想請他們要能夠注意到相關我想在學會的甚至是理見室也要能夠理解這件事情不單純只是理事長自己一個人的事情是整個醫界整個婦產科界以及我們在前輩對於我們年輕醫師應有的詮釋上不應該的行為以及應該有的尊重我還是強調我希望學會這邊能夠重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12897.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12925.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那當然這邊也是早上一些年輕醫師給我的建議因為你們之前有說你們也應該要親自到理監事會去溝通他們已經隔了四五個月沒有任何的動作但之前曾經衛福部有回函其他的委員說第一因為是人民團體你們比較難去做管理這是他們自治選出來的第二你們認為說可以先從提升醫師的自律開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12925.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12940.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
但這件事一般人觀感好像也蠻難接受的因為殺人放火然後跑來說我們要來提升法治的教育這件事已經蠻嚴重的可是你現在是提升醫師的自律如果提升醫生自律有效你們可能十年前就這樣做了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12941.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12966.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
年輕醫師他們是覺得台大醫院已經2025年1月25就已經在他們的官網上發布說經訪查相關人員並釐清事情始末後確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重那他們早上說問我說這是另類的台灣之光嗎他還代表我們全國的婦產科醫師到國外去跟人家做交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12966.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12978.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
因此他們有想到了一個方法在這邊也想請次長聽聽看因為你們常常說衛福部沒有權利去管人民團體但是衛福部卻把專科醫師的甄選制度交給了醫學會大家我們都考過嘛我們要經過很嚴格的口試 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12989.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13007.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
比試或是面試還會問你醫學倫理相關的問題結果現在掌管全國所有醫師到底誰可以拿到專科醫師執照的人是台大醫院網站上認證確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重這不是很荒謬嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13008.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13027.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
所以這是一個我還是再一次強調醫師這邊我們不論是現有醫師雖然是醫師身份但是他也受性平三法的管理他在工作職場上面屬於性平法性平工作法他如果是學校附屬他又是在性平性平等教育法再來性別性騷擾防治法醫師一樣受到這個規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13029.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13049.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
所以第一個事情當然在現有的法治的狀況之下我們希望各機關各要能夠去落實原來在性平三法中對於受害者的保障以及相關的性平調查那性平調查之後剛剛我想委員也指導了他不論是在醫師法相關懲戒的辦法裡面事實上是可以更積極來做處理這是第一個部分第二個部分其實我想委員也知道在 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13050.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13073.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這個像這個案子因為現在您提到的是主治醫師那有些是住院醫師之前有住院醫師的案子住院醫師在受訓過程中其實他除了原有的技術的訓練有相關的手冊要求他學到什麼程度之外我相信住院醫師在受訓過程中他本身在一定應該有的不論是法律遵循或者是人格操守尤其最重要的是醫學倫理的部分他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13074.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13083.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
訓練醫院我們講的教學訓練醫院本來也包含具有這樣的責任而且教學訓練醫院在這個過程中他也具有這個責任來為後續能夠去參與相關專科醫師這個考試應該還有一定程度的把關是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13089.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13114.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
當然大家最不能接受的就是這位性侵的住院醫師爆發才發現原來理事長也是他當時的主任嘛所以他也完成了他的住院醫師訓練最後也通過了專科醫師考試所以我是想在這邊請衛福部研擬一下你們不能給人家責任可是你們又不去究責畢竟你賦予他的還真的是個蠻大的責任啊你也知道錄取率 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13115.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13119.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
可能從90%到100%不等啦 不等不等嘛 不等所以有人還是會被刷掉的嘛所以你要怎麼樣透過你賦予他這個權利去加強對我們學會的管理因為你現在看起來是沒法源你管不了他 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13133.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13150.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
好跟委员报告谢谢委员关心这件事情我们医事司正在研拟就是说当然这一次的事件比较受瞩目是因为是著名的顶尖医院然后又是这个主管级的医师那所以会受到比较多的更多的关注不过以医事司这边我们所管理的医事人员来讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13151.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13169.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
会发生这一类的事件不单纯只是医师不单纯只是妇产科医师所以我们正在全面盘点因为相关的法规可能会散在各医事人员的法规里头甚至有些医事人员他也可能都只是他原来的这个所谓职业伦理那一块那现在我们正在跟医师师正在整理盘点就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13170.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13188.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
7月份会有一个一轮的会议那在那之前我们会有一些草案或者是一些拟定就是说对学会以及我们的专级医疗人员这些都是考过国家考试的这些人员他应该有后续的一些除了现有的性平三法之外有没有在专业上面在刻意其他的责任 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13189.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13203.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
應該是說考過國家考試之後其實還有一個不管是專科醫師審查他是沒有國家考試但你已經賦予他這個權利了所以你應該要也去限制他因為這個沒有人可以接受啦早上年輕的醫師傳簡訊給我他是寫說 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13205.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13223.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
大家是敢怒不敢言因為他們就是被他審查的人其實跟委員有報告就是說包含其實我們之前有另外一個案子是別的專科醫師那也是性騷或性騷跟性侵成立我們在衛福部就特別跟相關的團體提到這樣子的醫師如果他 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13224.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13237.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
以他的名義或者是他有參與的活動是跟我們衛福部去申請經費的話基本上我們是不支持的但現在偏偏是遇到我們審查的頭他也試射這件事情所以對於專業學會內部這邊的選擇我們會來要求要特別注意再來剛剛真的滿多衛委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13244.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13268.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
已經問過了啦但我是想知道說因為你之前呢比如說計程車司機兒童工作者教師通通都要因為涉案被停止醫師剛講到權力不對等尤其是這兩個案例有的兩個都非常明顯都是權力不對等不管是他跟同人之間同儕之間或者是有的是醫師跟病患之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13270.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13293.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這是我之前有看了很多很欣賞您的發言在台中市教師疑似權勢興造的時候您就說得非常的好沒有人想要列屋可是台中市政府4月以來該停聘的不停聘該擴大調查沒有積極調查讓台中市的父母四處詢問那接下來還有一個元能會主委的事件其實你也都記憶猶新嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13296.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13318.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
當時對全市性騷擾的態度非常明確也堅定就是立即停聘停止剛剛有提到不管是這兩個案例有一個人是繼續上班兩個人應該都繼續上班所以其實如果依照現在的我們已經修訂過的性騷擾防治法13條之一事實上機關這一邊就可以停止他的原來的工作那這邊是不是要請院長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13322.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13331.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
當時教授繼續上班但是修法後13條之一是可以停止他現有的對 因為他有教師的身份所以當他涉案的時候就應該要予以停職 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13334.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13355.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
當時候他涉案的時候是主任不過我們成立調查的時候他已經不是主任了所以這個就是對於陳姓醫師那對於那個黃姓醫師事實上他涉案以後已經被我們的性評委會不好意思院長停職好像跟不是主任的定義差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13357.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13381.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
事實上他的他之所以能夠做那些很多都是因為他是主任那事實上我們已經判定以後我們甚至已經禁止他去接觸所有的你是說判定還是說涉案開始因為如果他是教師他是因為教師因此擁有醫師這個身份嘛對 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13382.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13404.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
對 那他教師那邊就應該要馬上停止教師的部分比醫院慢一點因為教師部分還要到學校的性評委我是說我們醫院的性評委調查以後我們就禁止他接受甚至只要他在辦公室裡面他的門都要打開的這個事實上是我們有在婦產部裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13405.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13429.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
至於黃姓14他涉案以後雖然沒有停止但是我們已經禁止他獨自看病患所以有應該是說雖然沒有真正的停止但是我們有就是包括組織醫師或包括甚至在婦產部裡面他們也有規定只要他在門診裡面門都要打開 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13431.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13446.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
沒關係因為剛剛這個次長有很多答覆所以大家普遍我是反映大家的心聲啦希望您也可以在這方面從您以前的發言看起來是重視的可以做更多的著力好嗎謝謝我們就是希望可以亡羊補老快點 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13447.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13476.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
好 謝謝那對不起最後一個問題最後一個問題問次長這個是最近也是許多男性還有泌尿科醫師會重視的前總統拜登他自己揭露說他有罹患攝護腺癌而且是末期那我們都知道反正末期他的餘命真的非常的短後來我們來回顧台灣的數據攝護腺癌是唯一在十大癌症中持續發生率繼續往上升而且在男性這邊標準化發生率是排名的第三名 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13477.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13494.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
後來我去跟泌尿科醫學會調資料大部分發現也真的是末期那晚期發現餘命可能僅有5年那尤其是他有家族史發生機率又是一般人的10倍以上我今天想探討的是泌尿科醫學會他們在這邊希望我可以幫忙發聲因為我們的這個篩檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13498.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13527.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
可不可以納入他們如果不管是他們乖乖的去做癌篩乖乖的去做成人健檢去做老人健檢或是勞工健檢都沒有包含這個項目就是PSA的抽血除非是他花錢來做自費的健檢我們也有去回顧了一些文獻像英國他是認為有可以有其必要性有其重要性那美國的預防醫學部認為可以兩年篩檢一次這邊是不是可以請衛福部研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13528.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13552.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
可不可以納入五癌篩檢或是其他的謝謝委員指導這件事情因為想我們進入到高齡化社會之後那因為這是一個跟男性年齡增長有關的一個疾病所以他是不是評估納入篩檢那他的這個預算的狀況怎麼處理以及篩檢的這個效益到底如何這個部分是不是容我跟到時候民調可以學會跟我們的國健署 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13553.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13579.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
是 那我具體建議 泌尿科學會給我的建議是50歲以上希望每兩年可以篩檢一次PSA主席你覺得呢好 主席一直看我 不能再問他們是傾向用PSA我們再來跟學會這邊討論啦學會這邊 因為他還出他有包含就是所謂的他的效益以及我們應該要預算上怎麼樣編列跟落實這個部分讓我們跟學會再來討論好 謝謝 那就一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13580.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13584.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
PSA是專業性非常高的所以這個是非常有效當然我期待是拿入來 接下來我們請陳北宇委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13603.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13610.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
好謝謝蘇委員對我叫余承培余只是都二聲大家不是那麼確定怎麼念好那有請次長謝謝我們中午不休息啊我是肚子餓自己吃便當 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13617.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13643.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
好辛苦了辛苦了謝謝大家好次長我快速跟您討論我們之前追蹤衛福部的一些議題那如果您沒有接觸到相關業務沒關係就再拜託您待會去研議好嗎好是第一個是關於安置機構裡面的兒少身心狀況其實需要更多的協助之前在3月13號的時候我們曾經拜託邱部長針對原生家庭出了狀況的孩子必須要送到安置機構去的這些所謂家外安置的兒少 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13644.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13651.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
因為原生家庭出了狀況進到安置機構裡面他們除了第一時間受到照顧之外更多心理健康的支持那當時3月13號質詢之後我們知道衛福部好像在5月初有召開相關會議但是我們沒有收到相關的進度跟結論我不知道在當次的討論結論當中是什麼不過我相信既然已經有相關專家學者在研商會議給予結論我想要知道在我們之前所要求的如何增加所謂安置機構對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13674.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13692.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
这些原生家庭脆弱的孩子给予更多心理健康的支持当天的会议结论现在有机会跟我们说吗还是说还在研议中手上有相关的会议结论好那现在委员做个报告也非常谢谢委员关心因为这是非常脆弱而且是很少数的孩子但是我们一定要顾虑到这些孩子的需求是 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13692.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13716.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那在我們上次的這個會議上面談到大概有幾個比較簡單的部分跟委員先報告就是說第一針對特殊需求的兒少我們要去發展分級分類的照顧模式那當然希望在機構裡面能夠去調整照顧人力跟資源的配比第二個部分就是說他這中間可能我們還是要希望能夠發展一些比較簡易的評估工具讓他在安置初期就能夠先知道哪幾個孩子可能我們要先給一些特殊的照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13717.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13736.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
第三个部分在专业人员这边当然我们第一个部分是希望继续督导地方政府来持续精进而少安置单位的专业人员培训那而且第二部分希望这些机构第一个事情是来跟我们的医疗机构能够有医疗系统能够有一个连接也就是说基本上是建立他们的需求假设有绿色通道这个是所谓绿色通道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13737.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13738.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
在相關專家學者會議上他們有提出這個建議有沒有機會往這裡發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13766.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13792.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
我跟委員先報告第一個部分就是說現在在機構內能夠讓我們專業的心理師或諮詢心理師他能夠來做這個業務做職業登記的部分的話他做外展做職登是可以對我知道但是如果是要他專責在內部就是說在機構內部專責來進行服務的話現實上面來講當然如果他要機構內他要變成是符合我們的這個心理師職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13793.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13812.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
没错职业登记他如果符合职业登记我们当然可以允许但是成本上面来讲可能对机构来说会有点大因为他做了一个机构那他可能内部服务他应该是做内部服务的那服务量可能不足以让这个机构让他在内部的这个心理师他的足够量能那这个部分可能机构会比较有这个考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13812.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13835.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個是一個部分但是我的意思是說如果衛福部可以先開這個可能性讓機構內不管是公立的機構或是私立的機構因為目前確實越來越多的孩子因為原生家庭出了狀況他不得不被送到機構去如果機構他們有辦法自籌裁員但是需要你們的法規範開了這個門讓他們在機構裡面除了透過所謂的外展方案之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13842.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13872.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
卫福部开这个可能性自己机构内部要聘心理师是可以的只是他心理他聘了心理师如果心理师这个心理师他要以职业登记为心理师的服务的话那这个机构要去申请职业登记对但是因为现在的心理师是不行的对那这个设置标准在他内部的设置标准怎么样可以去调整是不是可以符合哪些细节可以处理我们再来后续跟委员这边去对还有需求的团队是不是来跟我们讨论一下我们把他的设置标准看他能不能符合设置标准好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13872.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13892.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
所以次長的建議是一個是我們先跟這些機構對話聽聽看他們目前的需求是不是如同我們辦公室所收集到資訊是這樣那再來透過跟心理師學公會的討論跟這些安置機構討論不管是你認為需要透過個案申請還是衛福部給一個公開的函說明符合心理師法情況下這些機構可以成為心理師職業機構對不對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13893.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13908.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
因為現在如果他是外展或報備資源他現在是已經可以運行我們也盡量讓這個部分可以運作但是如果他這個安置機構內部自己就要去設置心理師的這個服務的機構的話那他自己內部要這個機構的設置要符合我們的設置標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13909.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13933.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
因為在機構內還有設置標準他才提供的就是我們心理師法所規範的心理師的服務這個我沒有疑問我沒有要你們放寬這個標準我認為是跟更多的討論跟溝通因為目前他們所能夠執業的機構是醫療機構心理治療所心理諮商所其他經主管機關認可之機構所以我們希望主管機關也就是衛福部在這個議題上可以開始考慮跟這些安置機構對話就是安置機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13934.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13957.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
是沒錯我們來協助他配合符合我們的設計標準這個議題我們辦公室會再持續追蹤那看起來確實還需要一些討論不過很感謝你們已經召開相關會議從我們3月13日諮詢到現在第二個是關於這些機構裡面還有非常多特殊需求而造的困境一個是剛剛次長你有快速提到所謂他們要去就診的時候可能一次需要兩三位機構的人力共同 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13958.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13978.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
去看診而且看診的科目可能很多時間很長需要一整天的時間那目前安置機構希望衛福部可以協助醫院設立所謂綠色通道減少就醫的等待時間我知道目前有一些縣市的早療評估我們用早療這個概念來看已經有綠色通道像新北 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13978.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13997.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那衛福部有沒有機會跟地方設政單位討論針對這些安置機構的孩子外出就醫也可以設置綠色通道當然還需要時間研議我知道有沒有機會往這裡去討論我們其實一直都有在補助醫療機構去辦理嚴重情緒行為障礙者精神醫療就醫障礙改善方案好那我們把 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13999.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14023.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這個114年到現在的話我們總共有15家醫院在辦理尤其是針對嚴重情緒就是所謂經脹者的特別門診那還他這裡面我們當然就是跟他結合機構然後身心障礙福利機構兒少安置機構矯正學校等我們來提供外展服務不過我想委員也知道我們在做尤其是這一塊兒少的醫療資源他真的是我們也專業人員的部分是明顯的比較吃緊一點的 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14025.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14042.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
那所以我們不論現在在新建室這邊我們是持續來會支持醫療機構來做這樣子的服務那我想很多的機構他們也都如果說他跟安置機構有配合的這個機制的話那在內部他可以產生出這樣子的一個協助剛剛次長你說的都對 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14042.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14056.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
但是我要跟次長報告現場第一線的實務是大部分現在有提供你剛剛說不管是綠色通道或是嚴重情緒行為精神醫療就醫障礙改善計畫這些都是在公立的機構目前有非常多私立的機構其實承擔了 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14057.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14057.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
好 最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14077.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14093.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
机构里面现在照顾量能不足的问题我们希望可以协助机构发展所谓的分级分类让更多在照顾这些儿童的机构在你们的支持底下可以把孩子照顾得更好因为我认为凯凯案可能看见的是0到2岁的困境但事实上 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14094.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14119.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
遠離這個年紀之後很多孩子從原生家庭被接出來我們希望在第一時間提供他們更好的照顧不管是身心健康或是生理的議題上所以我也這邊要拜託衛福部我們先把問題拋出來這是第一個再來很多這些機構的工作人員他們其實長期的壓力非常非常大我們有沒有機會提供更積極的心理健康支持方案給這些在照顧孩子們的社工也好機構工作人員督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14120.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14144.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
更多的喘息服務當然我知道需要討論需要時間我先把問題拋出來謝謝委員注意到我想助人者的支持跟助人者後續的協助也是一個非常重要的方案對好那最後今天其實很多委員提到外聘獨老的事情我就簡單的說而且我今天早上聽了很多委員的質詢確實在相關制度上我們需要更多的精進跟討論因為目前看起來行之多年的方法大家認為有檢討的必要那我認為我想後續會服務你們會在這個部分精進對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14149.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14158.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
是好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝委員謝謝陳委員謝謝次長來接下來我們請郭育晴委員質詢好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14177.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14204.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
市長好我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14205.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14209.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接劃上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14211.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14235.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14237.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14258.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14268.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14289.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14289.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14317.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14317.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14345.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14346.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14353.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14375.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14388.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14389.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14413.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
理論上是這樣就是說如果這個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些其他外來的資訊的需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14413.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14416.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14429.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14444.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14444.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14471.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14473.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14495.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14496.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14523.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
以凱凱案來講因為他也是 包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好 所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14525.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14542.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14542.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14567.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14568.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14589.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
接下來我看到這是另外一個問題這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心然後之後再委託大愛關懷協會而且它是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭包含了 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14591.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14608.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14609.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14631.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14632.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14658.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14659.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14675.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14682.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14700.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14701.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14719.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14720.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14747.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝國務委員 謝謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14751.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14755.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
邱政軍委員改書面質詢接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席我們請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14773.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14790.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
市長今天有幾個問題就是跟市長這邊討論因為暑假快到了那我們知道說現在孩子幾乎人手一機手機上面這個資訊來自四面八方我想請教就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14792.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14813.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
關於孩子的這個問題就是說我們在這幾年看到這個有關這個靈病跟梅毒的這個通報數在台灣所有的法定傳染病中排名前五名那我們也看到就是說疾管署在這幾年他有做一個數據的分析就是15歲到19歲男性靈病發生率在五年間增 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14814.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14840.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
這個增加了差不多將近這個三倍那15歲到19歲女性沒讀發生率在所有這個年齡層當中是第二高的那我想請教就是說這個性病不只是醫療的問題其實我覺得這個也要從那個台灣的這個性教育著手那我想次長你也是這個婦科這個婦產科的醫師那也在第一線 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14842.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14862.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
這個職業過那我想請教就是說類似這樣的一個問題我們未來在這個衛福部要怎麼做或者是說衛福部跟其他的這個部會譬如說跟教育部要怎麼來協助讓這樣子的一個狀況能夠逐年這個傳染病能夠逐年降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14863.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14879.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
好 謝謝委員關心因為性傳染病事實上我們都不斷強調性傳染病它很重要的第一個最關鍵就是安全的性行為所以去在不論是教育部這邊對於性教育的部分或衛福部這邊我們不斷的有宣導安全性行為以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14880.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14905.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
應該要有的這一些防護的部分以及尊重對方的身體自主權這個部分我們持續都會再來繼續來推動那這一段時間的通報上升裡面在全球其實都有發現就是在COVID疫情之後有梅毒跟靈病疫情上升的現象那有一些分析認為說可能是因為疫情期間大家沒有去比較不敢去看診所以疫情之後這一個診斷才被發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14907.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14932.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那再来的话就是说疫情趋缓之后那个相关人跟人之间的活动就变得比较多一点所以这些就医行为让通报事件出现那当然我们现在的资料里面在今年1到4月我们在15到19岁的临病通报的数字已经比去年下降了三成但是当然我们持续会来做这样子的一个传染病防治以及我们讲的安全性行为的一个宣导那 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14933.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14957.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
長期以來我們在性的性傳染病的防治的部分其實過去在門診不論是在泌尿科婦產科加醫科世上疾管署這邊都有一些案子就是說我們也請醫師這邊他假設有比方說他是膀胱炎或者他某些疾病可是他強烈懷疑這可能跟性傳染病有關那我們是有這樣子的方案請他們能夠更敏感的來做這樣的檢驗及早能夠診斷出可能的性傳染病是 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14961.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14983.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
其實在我們那個年代其實要教這個可能一些這個有關什麼樣的這個知識那可能都會透過有時候老師他不會直接鳴講那像現在的話我覺得可能在課堂上老師要鳴講可能也會有點困難那有的青少年他可能就透過這個網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14984.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14993.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
自己去探索所以我在這邊就是一方面也希望就是說未來這個衛福部跟這個教育部這邊應該針對這部分應該要應該還要再加強因為這樣的一個知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15000.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15014.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
也許從家庭也許是從這個教育從學校端這樣得知可是我們看到就是說現在網路世界真的是花花世界這個來自很多的這個資訊或者是這個交友軟體 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15016.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15042.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那很多青少年他可能會想要去嘗試所以我們希望就是說衛福部針對這部分不論是你們自己去協助這個學校或者是醫院遇到這樣的事情是不是也要通報那減少我們這樣子的一個這個傳染病逐年這樣增加其實我看到這個我我也覺得說這個也許是跟現在的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15044.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15066.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
交友這個交友軟體其實也是很方便也許也是主要的原因之一所以我們希望就是說衛福部跟教育部針對這一部分應該還要再來加強是 謝謝委員在性傳染病的部分因為這個是我們有要求要通報的性傳染病所以如果是確診沒讀或是臨病是本來醫事機構就要向我們通報的它是列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15066.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15093.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那在如果是未成年未成年的孩子他如果是相關有懷疑就是說他可能是有在兒少權法被剝削或者是性剝削的部分的話那那個部分其實我們的通報其實就是來往後端去給相關的這個社會局或者是社會服務的部分來給他協助另外一個部分也是來協助就是說假設他本身是有性侵家暴等等在社政上面來做一些協助那不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15094.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15116.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
委員所關心的通報的部分我們也要很謹慎處理因為長期以來擔心的事情就是說假設這些年輕的個案來到臨床那醫師診斷後的通報程序如果是有發現就一定要怎麼樣通報而且是到學校第一個部分是擔心對孩子的隱私造成影響第二個部分也擔心孩子會因為這個原因就忌諱就診 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15116.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15136.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那如果有機會就診當然對於他的傳染病的診察或者傳染病的治療是更不好所以這個部分我們會謹慎來處理那我想請教就是說我們現在這個在那個艾滋上面有一個完善的一個追蹤機制嘛那有沒有可能就是針對這一部分也是類似用這樣的一個追蹤機制來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15138.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15158.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這個其實就是在法定傳染病的限定裡面不過因為這三個它都是法定傳染病所以就像剛剛提到一個事情是我們在原來的這個法定傳染病的通報事項裡面它本來就要通報過去然後通報完之後主管機關或者是我們的機構這邊要去對於個案後續有沒有治療跟追要去做相關的追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15159.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15175.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
那但是就是說在法律裡面目前我們應該是沒有要求說要對他的梅毒跟靈病的性伴侶這一邊再去做就是後續的處理但不過我們在臨床上會鼓勵啦因為臨床上也知道說這樣子的個案他 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15177.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15195.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
這個性傳染病他一定是從他性伴侶來的所以也會鼓勵或者是要求就是說提醒這一個個案他要能夠提醒他的性伴侶再來後續做追蹤檢查比方說我們之前假設是病人他我們的病人發現有靈病那我們會跟他說我們要通報但是我們也請他下次把他的先生帶來 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15198.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15213.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
其實我覺得這個問題不只是說這個後端就是醫療治療這個疾病其實應該是也要在前端可能就是從社政或教育我剛剛講的這個教育方面我覺得應該也要去配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15214.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15229.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
正確的這個交友或者是正確的這個性行為我覺得這應該也是要從教育上面去去做另外我剛剛這個從小上就很多委員在關心就是凱凱案然後有關這個外聘督導的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15230.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15250.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
其實我覺得說就像月勤委員他長期他就是在攝服這個區塊那有關兒少他就是一個督導我那天還特別問說其實如果在第一線的人或者是在縣市他沒有講出來的話其實外聘督導他根本不會知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15251.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15279.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
所以如果說要把這個責任怪罪於外聘督導其實我是覺得那是非常不合理的啦所以在相關的制度內部他應該要有一定程度的防範跟這個糾錯那外聘的督導其實角色事實上是給在制度內的社工或者是訪視員在他的專業職能上的提升以及他後續他如果有需要的話由這個外聘的督導來給他們在制度上面行政上面跟服務上面更好的一些建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15282.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15306.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
市長我今天最主要是因為暑假快到了暑假到其實所有的青少年放假其實很我們希望就是說結合教育部然後結合我們衛福部其實有很多事情需要做尤其是在暑假期間或者是說一些安全或者是其實我希望說你們能夠再加強讓這樣的一個傳染病能夠逐年降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15306.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15321.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我想我們會提醒包含疾管署跟國健署在這段期間尤其暑假到了再做一些宣導讓大家能夠重視到這個傳染病防治跟安全性行為的重要性好謝謝謝謝黃秀恩委員謝謝次長接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請林次長次長見 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15341.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15364.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
市長好 本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15366.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15388.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理藍絨也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15389.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15404.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15406.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15434.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考對 因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟衛師制報告那就可以來做一個換照 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15436.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15459.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練啊但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15460.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15475.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15476.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15504.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15505.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15533.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
呃是不是請台大台大院長是離開了來院長還在是啊是好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是呃為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是呃性騷案件好所以他通報是通報衛生呃通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法應該是應該沒有這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛醫師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15535.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15563.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
跟我們報告就是說我想我們對於性騷或者是性侵等等的法規我們在性平三法裡面包含性別工作平等法性別平等教育法跟性騷的防治法那性別工作平等法跟性別平等教育法它事實上是在學校這邊要有性平相關的裁處以及性別平等工作法這邊是它的職場好那這兩邊如果是教育系統的它之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15564.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15586.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好 職場這邊的話 那它事實上就是通報地方機關機關市長你拉遠了我們現在針對個案 這是個案也可能是通案我先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是 如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15588.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15612.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
今天早上答詢的時候回復講是說因為要經判審判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說他就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理他就應該要受懲處嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15613.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15627.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15629.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15657.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15657.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15675.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛那如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15676.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15689.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
所以我們它只有內部的行政作業然後它是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論理只有醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99% |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15693.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15721.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該要成應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他都應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15723.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15748.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
所以說在這個案件我想我們利用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責往上是通報社會局法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15750.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15771.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15772.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15799.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個診檢您是主管機關不只是希望你現在應該要去要求委員他依法可以你應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15801.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15829.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就是環環相扣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15831.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15857.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
應該未來 為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15858.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15881.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15886.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15914.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15916.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15940.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局是 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15941.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15960.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15973.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15984.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15987.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16007.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16008.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16033.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
然後落實辦理機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是 因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16038.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16043.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝次長那接著我們請張祺凱委員質詢大家好 主席 親愛的林次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16067.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16085.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
市長你什麼時候知道林業勤林惠玲是凱凱案這個案子仿事社公司的督導應該是前一段時間立法院這邊講出來的凱凱案老講現在今天談起來心都還很疼 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16086.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16111.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
心都還很疼現在大家覺得很意外的是林月琴明明是外部的這個督導她應該是第一時間應該是很快知道凱凱被售內而死這個案子可是呢她一直默不作聲就我了解月琴委員好像在2023年底還是2024年初她就跟幾位委員很關心這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16113.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16132.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
大家疑問的是說過了三個月媒體報導說那時候的國民黨立委王玉敏他是俄福聯盟的董事那時候他已經被迫要辭職了當天民進黨還有十多位的立委到衛環委員會這邊來杯葛議事大家一定有印象嘛林業勤林委員也是其中之一他安靜從容地坐在這邊而且做了質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16143.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16153.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
他一副還是以專家自居大家在問的是一個凱凱案的社工園的外部督導他盡了什麼樣的責任第二個 當民進黨圍剿王一鳴的時候你那一群不曉得他的責任也很重嗎今天台灣民眾黨沒有要向民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16172.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16197.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
那要去圍剿王毅民或者去圍剿當初推動壯世代的吳春城吳春城為了解決55歲以上的年長者希望有更好的生活有更好的這個工作也解決我們少子化缺工的問題也希望推動壯世代這個產業他在民進黨的 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16201.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16219.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
杯葛抹黑之下他為了自清為了保住他的壯士代他選擇了辭去立法委員名字現在大家最要問的林業勤啊林業勤到現在盡了什麼責任台灣民眾黨不會像民進黨這樣去圍剿林業勤可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16229.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16250.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
站在人民的角度來看至少兩個問題要解決啊一個是凱凱案為什麼這麼悲慘的事情會發生我們整個社福的制度面裡面出了什麼樣的大問題這是第一個第二個重要的林內勤的角色他到底要負責怎麼樣的責任我要請教次長林內勤到現在都還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16260.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16269.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
淨堅基金會的董事淨堅基金會多年來拿了很多包括衛福部的案子標案對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16270.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16299.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這個我們剛剛今天委員有質詢到基金會那基金會這邊我們都是來接基金會來跟我們申請的案子那根據採購法委員會這個應該是立衝法這些基金會來跟我們申請或者是來跟我們標案他們必須要提出當初民進黨在指責其他人的時候是不是講這就是在利益迴避老實講吳春城非常生氣說有人把他跟林業勤這個案子拿來對比 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16300.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16326.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
可是老實講你如果真的要拿來對比你如果講無尊整個利益迴避的這個問題林業勤這個案子嚴重100倍以上更清楚更多的案子而且是大家到現在喔林業勤到現在還是進監基金會的這個董事這是第一個問題第二個我要問你了他為什麼可以一個人身兼那麼多職他是督導又是講師又是評鑑委員評鑑演的這個委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16330.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16355.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
委員你是在哪一個單位我說你現在新北市跟台北市都提出來了對不對你在衛生部這麼久你也當過立委對不對我沒有任何委員市長除了林燕瓊之外有一個人是負責社工員當督導的又是講師又是評鑑員的委員嗎有嗎你印象中有一個嗎我們在醫界事實上蠻常會有又是醫師又是評鑑委員然後他本身可能又是某一些機關的評鑑的督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16358.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16360.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那也是一些包含指導的講師你覺得這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16363.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16378.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
一個人申請這麼多詞是合適的嗎沒有這個衝突嗎委員我們只能今天最近這一兩個禮拜有多少的專家學者跟民意代表出來提醒這一點了你們也是做一個改革嗎委員我只能就包含立衝相關的社福團體也應該這樣嗎社福團體來跟衛福部申請經費或者是標案那我們也要求社福團體依照我們剛剛講立衝的法他們要揭露他們內部的一些相關是不是有立衝的部分衛福部在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16392.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16393.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
談連王燕銘的時候談吳村長不是這樣回答吧這是嚴重的一個雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16400.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16424.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
我要強調我剛講過了我們不會像台灣台灣民眾黨不會像民進黨這樣圍剿任何的立法委員我們要的是一個公道制度破洞了趕快去找制度面把它補起來第二個個人該負的責任要負起責任這樣才是個良善的台灣社會有問題解決有辦法解決問題的台灣社會所以有具體的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16426.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16454.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
是不是林烈祺應該馬上辭掉淨堅兒童安全文教基金會的董事還有台少門副董事長副理事長這個職務這些都是民間團體民間團體衛福部這邊他們內部的董事成員那我鄭重的呼籲林烈祺林委員你好好去思考這個而且我也呼籲民進黨不只不要雙標你不要繼續包庇形同縱容 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16455.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16468.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
台灣人民都正在看這麼悲慘的一個凱凱案到底要怎麼去捕破網不要有這樣的悲劇在發生有人該負責的應該肩負自己的責任我沒有像民進黨那麼狠那麼毒圍毆 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16474.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16490.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
其他立委的時候逼迫人家要請辭還要告人家我們現在只是從制度面從個人的這個責任請民進黨也不要再包庇請你也請林委員好好面對問題面對你自己的責任解決問題 謝謝好 謝謝張委員 謝謝次長那接下來我們請換雲委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16506.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16507.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
有請次長我也好 次長好今天我是要關心台大婦產科的事我本來以為我今天要問部長因為我知道次長都有表達相關的意見不能每次性別相關都叫女性首長出來這樣很不公平今天只有次長可以問好險部長到WHO去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16532.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16551.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
這樣子 當然了解那其實今天蠻多委員有關心到黃姓前住院醫師案那我知道衛福部剛剛有表達說你們會發函給各地公會強調不需要判刑確定就能送懲處那我今天其實是想用我的投影片來問 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16553.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16568.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
這其實是D案2023年的鄭姓醫師案次長應該知道當時是我辦公室接到陳情他知道這位醫師至少性侵或性猥褻六位女性然後2024爆出的陳姓醫師現在還是婦產科醫學會理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16574.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16588.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
他被控性騷六位就是女醫師同仁然後今天很多人關心的黃姓前住院醫師性侵病人我覺得我想問的是台大婦產科都是台大婦產科 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16591.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16607.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
三年連環三大案這個是因為其中的性騷也是情節嚴重的權勢性騷然後另外兩案都是性侵案為什麼台大婦產科三年可以報三案到底是內部 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16608.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16629.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
我覺得是不是除錯機制或者是組織文化出了什麼問題因為婦產科對我們來講更嚴重因為婦產科他本來就會涉及到病患的性隱私高度的敏感那專業倫理如果出了或者組織文化出了嚴重的問題我想社會信賴也會崩解所以我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16631.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16651.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
因為剛剛已經有人講過案情了我就不再重複黃姓一失案就是一審判決出爐大家已經知道了比較少提到的剛剛有一位委員有問到就是我接到的陳情人就是這位陳姓李市長權勢性騷被台大醫院調查去年六月就是情節重大權勢性騷對多位 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16653.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16663.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
台大教評會讓他三年不得聘任為教師那這樣的人 不知道次長您覺得他適合擔任婦產科婦產學會的理事長嗎您個人會認為他適任嗎我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16669.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16685.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
是我知道所以您感觉这样子的一个事件事实上深深的伤害了不论是妇产科医师或者是全部的医师在民众的信任这件事情我想委员我们一起都处理过性平三法法律事实上是所有道德的最低底线 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16685.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16702.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那醫師身為專業工作者也接受在患症學分裡面應該有的性別學分甚至我相信醫師有足夠的專業能力以及他的知能知道他對於病患之間應該有的行為所以這件事情事實上是真的非常不可接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16703.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16726.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以你也不能接受他繼續擔任理事長而且還要帶隊出國那陳情人跟受害人可能是好朋友甚至是受害人因為他們都不願意公開揭露他的訊息那我真的覺得作為一位長期關心性評我對婦產科學會這種處理方式覺得不可思議我也覺得相關的機制應該是哪裡出了問題當然台大 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16729.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16735.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
婦產科醫師的部分我想我們今天是向衛福部請命基層醫師的公會也都已經發聲明了我們要給年輕醫師一個怎麼樣的示範我想就幾個問題想請問因為衛福部剛剛有講你們會發函給各地公會 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16747.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16776.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
可是這裡面台大醫院說他一月就已經發函不只是衛福部地方主管機關醫師公會所以台北或新北衛生局到底有沒有一副懲戒醫師公會婦產科醫學會有沒有懲戒衛福部在今天之前有沒有追蹤監督然後台大醫院把他停病三年為什麼還可以到其他醫院去任職那最後一個謝謝次長林靜次長已經回答說他不適任了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16777.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16805.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
我自己是也想問的是我們的醫師法跟相關的懲戒辦法我仔細讀了一下好像完全沒有說實現多久內要調查完畢懲戒完畢開完會那也只有給相關當事人什麼20天之內要回應等等這一些那懲戒辦法是不是應該要做修正也希望那個林建義次長那今天您就全權代表衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16805.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16809.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那既然部長人在WHO是不是就能夠承諾大家你們會修正檢討然後剛剛這幾個單位都能夠監督他們謝謝委員關心我想我們在這個事情尤其是黃姓婦產科醫師這個案子我們是到判決之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16823.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16840.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那判決看到了之後我們立刻行文給地方衛生局希望他們能夠來一副懲戒所以在衛福部這邊我們的動作知道的時候是這個樣子那至於說現在的資訊是就我們所了解地方衛生局接下來應該是預計在七月份六月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16842.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16867.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
會開懲戒那針對我們最近所關注到的三位婦產科醫師來開懲戒我們也希望我今天也在今天委員會再一次的希望就是說在懲戒的過程之中醫界要能夠發現也能夠理解整個社會對於醫療人員尤其是醫師的倫理應有的態度那至於說在學會這邊為什麼這位台大解聘三年不能夠當教授的他還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16867.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16884.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
也就是不能當醫院的醫師嗎因為這是教學院醫院呢其實這個就是理事長因為這樣學會內部當然我也跟委員報告就是我跟部長其實我們在過去這幾個月持續有跟學會這邊提到這個疑慮你們提疑慮他們還可以不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16885.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16912.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
学会一再强调就是他们内部的一些规定以及包含学会说他们还要再等一些调查等等台大医院的调查全是性骚成力情节重大他们还认为没有公信力各位知道这样的东西很难有证据所以并不容易调查我觉得这是组织文化的问题不知道次长同不同意大家轻忽了然后包庇这样的医师 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16912.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16927.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
然后让一粒老鼠屎坏了让大家失去了对整个领域的信任我觉得真的很遗憾非常需要正视的一件非常严重的事情而且我也要在这个角色里面去说我认为相关的整个医界 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16929.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16943.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
除了在談到要重視或者是要保障這個所謂的當事人的權益之外也希望我們的學會跟醫界要能夠考慮到這個過程中的被害者權益這裡面的被害者甚至很多是我們自己的同事 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16944.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16961.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
以這位那個陳姓醫師來講就是受害的女醫師而且權勢地位上遠低於她所以在這個過程裡面我們也希望醫界要能夠不斷的去提醒自己這個過程中受害者的權利是更應該要被放在優先前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16961.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16979.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
那今天是不是也請就是次長也能夠去關切因為我看醫師公會的聲明他們也認為台大醫院雖然給他相關的懲戒等等但是對於其他住院醫師受害人的權益其實並沒有做得很好好不好那所以次長願意修正懲戒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16979.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16997.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我想在懲戒辦法部分跟委員報告我們事實上除了醫師之外因為我們也發現各醫事人員的職種他內部相關的倫理或懲戒都散在各個法裡面所以醫事司我們正在研議就是說是不是把這個部分全部做一個中整那讓醫事人員的行為部份能夠有一個比較明確的準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16998.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
17008.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那在多久之內可以給本席一個報告呢我們是不是可以在兩個月兩個月內齁那希望不要再讓這些學會公會再有任何的藉口好不好是 謝謝謝謝次長謝謝 謝謝黃衛薇謝謝次長好 接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 本席要請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
17025.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
17050.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
市長好我想一早上討論大家都有一個共識病患的權益不容許有任何的大則所以在發生這樣子的性騷跟性侵害我們看到台大醫院的婦產科的這一位醫師發生了性侵的這個事件竟然還長達三年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
17051.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
17079.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
他沒有被停職或者是沒有被公佈姓名那外界都高度的質疑醫師的懲戒跟通報機制是私領的所以因此會影響病人的安全那麼所以在一整個早上本席聽起來大家都有這個共識病人的權利 病人的安全是需要受到保障那這需要怎麼保障呢目前的這個樣態因為您說台大醫品 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
17080.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
17103.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那個已經評定了過程性騷之後呢應該要主動的通報台北市衛生局更說衛生局不會用通靈的方式知道台大發生什麼事那但是台大說台大院長說了性騷的主管機關是社會局所以他們當時依法去通知社會局 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
17104.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
17119.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那剛剛你也特別說了你們是到判決決定就最近你們才會知道才開始要啟動所以這樣整個過程讓人高度的一個質疑也就是我們在整個懲戒跟通報的機制它是失靈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
17121.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
17135.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
換句話說在調查懲戒停止的時機它的法規以及在整個程序明明有不足的這個部分所以我們看到這個事件可以看它說目前的制度它是失靈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
17136.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
17154.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
他的失靈導致醫界行政單位從醫院從地方成中央都好像在踢皮球那麼有一個怠惰不負責的這個樣態產生所以本席不希望三方都在踢皮球本席舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
17156.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
17173.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
老師教育部他擬定了校園性別事件通報以及調查的處理程序如果校園發生了這樣的事件那他必須要在24小時之內他要完成校安的通報他必須要在24小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
17174.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
17193.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
如果行為人是教師 他更要通知教品會先暫停停聘 接受調查所以剛剛我也聽到市長你所說的這個是非常需要重視的你認為目前的問題在哪裡我們現行的醫師懲戒委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
17196.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
17221.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
啟動時機沒有明確的一個法律規範那是不是我們應該要來修法要來明定讓整個的事件能夠更有效能來 請說明好 謝謝委員我想第一個事情當然我們希望是說現有的醫師法跟懲戒辦法它不論是知悉這件事情之後這個學會 公會或者是這個機構它事實上可以提醒它的主管機關就地方的衛生局來 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
17222.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
17223.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
那請問 那目前沒有這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
17242.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
17250.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
那怎麼辦呢請問你們要不要去整合把這個規範更明確在校園裡頭必須24小時就立即啟動然後通知如果行為人是老師的話就是現有的這個性平三法當然它內部在機構內部機關內部它有它的這個性平的調查機制這個部分我們會希望我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
17267.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
17292.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
再次的宣導希望大家能夠遵守這個部分第二個部分就是我們剛剛今天在委員會上已經強調就是說醫師我們在衛福部這邊會再發函給各縣市的醫師公會以及就是說我們的機構這邊再一次的強調依照目前不論是性平三法或者是在醫師法跟醫師懲戒辦法內部希望大家主動的來提起這樣子對於這樣不應該發生在醫界的言行來夠積極的來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
17294.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
17314.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
所以應該要更明定醫生醫師的醫院的這個通知不管是衛生局要啟動的這個懲戒程序要讓更執事者更加的清楚是我們希望能夠在現有的法律的制度之下能夠讓現有權責這邊能夠更清楚然後然後能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
17315.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
17335.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
積極的來做處理這這麼大的一個爭議大家的不安心本席具體建議應該你要去盤點所有的法律所有的辦法要怎麼樣去規範出來讓執行者讓病患他都能夠非常的安心這個是應該要有一個均衡的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
17336.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
17363.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
對不對也跟我們報告就是說因為現在大家關注的可能因為醫師的部分比較受到關注事實上醫事人員醫事人員在相關類似的事件除了現有性品三法之外他能不能繼續職業或他在他的原來職業機構內部怎麼樣去做處理這個部分我們醫事師接下來會開一個相關的會議去做開一個相關的會議把醫事人員對醫事人員都打盤進去因為現在我們看到在整個社會的氛圍他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
17364.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
17380.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
他是害怕的我們不應當有這樣的一個樣態出來所以具體去研擬你們的進行方案那接下來本期要討論要請教的就是狼獅查詢平台邱部長在接受訪問的時候他也說要建立那現在有沒有這個進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
17381.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
17400.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
這個部分因為部長現在在WHO不過我們跟醫事室這邊我們會去優化現有的醫事人員的資訊整合的這個部分好那依照目前法律可以揭露的部分我們就先行那如果還需要再做法律調整的部分我們會後面再補上後面再補上所以你們現在可以做的我們就先做 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
17401.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
17428.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
對 當然這個非常的必要才不會導致事件又再發生這個非常重要那你們現有的趕快做那不足的趕快補這個非常重要接下來本席要請教凱凱案外聘督導的功能到底是為何本席具體建議因為現在似乎模糊的空間很多模糊的空間很多所以本席要具體來了解也就是它的功能到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
17429.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
17448.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
他的功能到底是什麼?其實我們在原來機構內部就有他的內部的督導那來進行機構內部的整個外部督導所以在本來的內部有督導之外的外部督導他事實上是來透過他是來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
17450.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
17475.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
機構內的督導他的在執行行政教育的部分增加我們第一線助人者就是社群協助嘛協助他的職能但是在這一些的工作上提升他的功能提升他的能力跟仿式的機制那發生這樣的一個事件大家推來推去仿式機制其實在原來機構內部就有對 已經發現重點內同的密切相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
17477.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
17501.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
跟我們報告內部訪視的制度裡面我們在去年的4月30跟5月1號我們都重新又施行了直轄市縣市政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引給地方政府針對他們在托育中心的訪視輔導員應該有的頻率而且這裡面我們也強調要有做分級也就是說有一些譬如說是出養啦發展遲緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
17502.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
17523.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
等特殊催加的孩童那這個部分請地方衛生局他在執行居托中心的訪視的過程中能夠針對這些比較脆弱的孩子他的增加他的訪視的頻率或他應該要有的訪視的職能目前當然我們知道這些人也都很辛苦但是我們不希望這個事件再發生所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
17525.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
17549.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
這個在我們整個的這個督導的機制要怎麼樣優化我也具體建議你們去盤點去看看哪一些可以明確可以精進好嗎 多久時間給本席報告委員其實我們去年就已經把這個部分做精進多久時間可以給本席我們那個分級訪視的這個部分是不是我們會後提供給委員好 趕快謝謝委員好 謝謝楊潔恩委員 謝謝次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17554.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17561.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那許新穎許新穎委員 許新穎委員 許新穎委員不在請陳穎委員質詢謝主席麻煩請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17580.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17607.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
市長好 公交人員有偏鄉離島的地域加擠地域加擠大致上如果是在離島的話就是至少每個月有7700元以上如果是在山地鄉的話則是每個月有3090元以上其他台東花蓮的平地鄉我們有東台加擠每個月只有630元 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17610.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17631.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
台東花蓮如果單純就是用山地鄉平地鄉的模式去劃分有一些地方會造成不公平的現象因為有很多的平地鄉雖然是平地鄉但是他一樣沒有像其他地方便利的交通環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17631.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17657.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
但是加急卻一樣只有630元喔例如像這個豐濱那不知道部長有沒有 次長有沒有去過豐濱醫院豐濱 我沒有去過就花蓮的台東交接豐濱好像還沒去過還沒去喔 有機會是 有機會可以去看看齁那因為蛤 好啊開考察你說我排還是你排 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17659.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17675.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
好我們還有很多地方要去好那這個是這樣子就是說封兵呢他是應該是全花蓮縣唯一沒有火車經過的地方那公車站呢如果按照這個加急的急速去 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17676.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17696.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
就是判斷可能有些地方它就是5到15公里就是公車站其實你要走好幾公里那個也是很遠啦所以我們看一下齁這個這張照片是豐濱醫院的正面齁那右邊我這個螢幕都沒有出來右邊是衛生所 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17697.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17720.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
對 右邊是封冰衛生所 左邊是封冰醫院那兩個單位呢 它是在同一個建築物裡面但是其實他們裡面是互通的那市長你知道嗎就是說在這個建築物裡面上班的公務人員包括這個就是醫護及行政這些等等他們上班是從左邊進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17722.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17741.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
到醫院那他們的加給就是630元但是從右邊衛生所的進來就沒人囉每個月加給有3090元我想這樣子一比較你看你聽了你們都在笑了謝謝委員幫我們博布利醫院爭取權益真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17742.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17748.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
你講到同一個建築物裡面左邊跟右邊一個630一個3090元如果你是領630的你有沒有現在覺得相對剝奪感很強對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17756.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17763.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
所以理論上你們都很客氣啊都抱歉我在這裡就替你們講了理論上封閉醫院的業務絕對不會比衛生所輕鬆因為在這個封閉的這個衛生所他是負責這個衛政那醫療部分全部都是在這個到這個封閉醫院嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17776.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17801.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那甚至有時候我們台東就比較北邊的也要往封閉醫院送啊所以這個醫院跟衛生所就在同一個屋簷下但是領的地域加擠卻是兩個世界好所以算一算應該差了四倍喔那我剛剛講齁這個人事行政總署的地域加擠規定在平地鄉有很多不公平的現象那封閉鄉平地鄉630 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17804.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17829.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那花蓮縣政府呢他們在四年前就提出了地域加擠的合理化方案送行政院並且獲得支持那封兵箱內呢它是屬於這個地方政府管理的機關那地域加擠全部改為3090元那唯獨部立醫院的封兵醫院封兵分院現在每個月還是在領630元這個市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17832.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17860.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
你覺得這樣對你們院內這個同仁是公平的嗎謝謝委員我想我們自己部立醫院事實上真的承擔了台灣非常重要的公共公醫的職責那尤其是花東我們非常感謝願意在花東來提供服務的這些醫事人員我們也全力來協助那這個部分應該是人種的規定那我們在衛福部這邊當然另外我們在其他的能夠給我們的醫療人員比較好的待遇的部分衛福部這邊盡力來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17862.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17870.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
那但是如果是人种的规定的话当然我们也希望说人种能够考量到我们这些专业医疗人员在这边的困境那让我们有比较好的夹击 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17871.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17895.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
我想是這樣啦我覺得這個部分齁你們應該要大聲疾呼啦大聲給他叫一下啦給他叫好幾下啦我們也幫忙叫也會幫忙來協調爭取啦那所以我要請你們馬上來清查就是說在就是說這個花東地區是不是還有類似的情形這個部分是不是可以請你們一週內清查完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17896.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17913.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
謝謝委員 我們請衣服會就是針對我們在不論是您剛剛所提到的原住民地區或者是這些特定偏遠地區那在相關地域加級不合理或者是已經不符現實需求的這個部分我們再整理資料給委員謝謝委員幫忙我也想請教一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17914.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17936.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
你們一句話就是說這是人總的規定我也知道這是人總的規定但是這中間你們有沒有溝通協調過搞不好他沒有看過那個統一棟建築左邊跟右邊如果我們的人總他是在他上班的那棟大樓一個右邊進去630另外一邊3090元我看他自己棟會掉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17940.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17954.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
我們自己其實長期待在華東的這個副執行長也只能說過去大概他們就默默接受不過謝謝委員我想我們一起幹嘛默默接受我們一起來看看怎麼樣跟人種做這樣的爭取啦謝謝委員幫我們關心 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17955.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17970.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
好 那這個部分是不是就是說你們也就是如實反映給我們整理現況給我也對 你們也要爭取一下嘛是對啊 然後那個就是人家都可以提一個合理化方案嘛那你們也可以提一個不合理的檢討報告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17972.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17988.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我們想這個是地域加緊我們願意給你們做後盾謝謝委員還有之前我們公益也提到包含這個我們偏向的交通費等等我們其實部立醫院這邊事實上長期都蠻辛苦的是好那一起努力謝謝委員好那接下來我要請教那個國教署那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17991.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
18008.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
國教署的部分上個月有很多的委員有一起召開記者會揭發了我們台東某國小的輻射幼兒園的老師對學童施暴的案件我相信你們應該都有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
18011.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
18038.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
就是說這個當然縣府對於相關人員的懲處都已經出爐但是呢有非常有還有一些家長就是說對於這件事情仍然存有很多的疑問那我想這些疑問主要來自於這個調查報告因為縣府所給的這個調查報告就是說他們應該是說家長收到這個調查報告他所呈現的就像這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
18041.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
18056.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
烏雲籠罩一樣黑壓壓的一片這你看得出來是什麼嗎你不如給一張白紙算了或者你給他一張黑紙那再來因為長這個樣子所以家長越看越氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
18058.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
18087.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
所以我不知道你們有沒有看過他們的調查報告有看過嗎報告委員有看過他們的調查報告那再來齁剛剛這是第一版的圖啦那幾乎90%都是遮蔽的那我們再來看一下下一張第一張絕對看不出內容啦好然後再來就是說家長反應之後得到了這個第二版這個圖那你們看這個圖有沒有覺得長得很像什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
18089.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
18112.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
某種密碼電腦裡面的密碼是不是亂碼對不對因為在第二版的內容他把行為人證人相關人員都同用同一種方式全部把他打黑遮蔽起來我想請問一下教育部這個你們看得出來誰是家暴老師誰是小朋友誰是家長誰是證人嗎你看得出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
18113.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
18136.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
跟委員報告因為現在我們就是有個調查辦法那其實就規定說這個有涉及到幼生個人身份的是用代號為之那因為現在看起來就是台東縣提供給家長的部分他是用整個責備的部分來做處理那這部分我們會再跟那個台東縣政府來就是做這個調查報告的部分來請他們做理解所以這個明明在你們的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
18137.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
18161.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
在這個你們叫保相關人員違法事件調查處理辦法裡面講得很清楚嘛就是要把相關要把相關人員的姓名去識別化沒錯嘛但是你要用代號來取代嘛好所以這個你們到底有沒有去指導去溝通過跟這個地方縣府跟他們講到底這個要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
18163.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
18190.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
你們到底有沒有去教他們有沒有去指導是 跟委員報告因為我們這個新修正的規定是今年4月22號實行那我們大概在前端也有透過跟地方政府的就是有修法的會議那還有我們今年的那個7月底就會辦理那個培訓那還有我們跟地方政府教育局處的這個科課長會議那都會持續的在來做這個新修正規定的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
18191.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
18219.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
因為既然你們四月份就已經四月份是新的規定嘛那你們遲至七月份才要去做這個講習嗎七月是針對審查小組那我們跟局處之間的規定大概因為我覺得通常你一個新的規定要上路前其實你們就應該要先做一些準備或者他在公告的同時就應該要同步很積極的做一些處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
18220.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
18247.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
但是因為這三個月當中你看四月到短短雖然短短好像將近兩個月的時間但是它有可能發生很多事情啊所以請你們加緊腳步市公園報告我們就是會再製作那個調查報告的那個參考的格式那再提供給立法院那你們可不可以優先趕快先把這一件處理好那你們什麼時候可以先把這一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
18249.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
18266.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
因為我們最近就已經有發文給那個台東縣政府了那大概就是最快這個五月底前就會再請他們把這個依照新規定的這個現在也五月底了啦你要不要乾脆就講幾月幾號前那可以就容許我們五月三十一號五月三十一號現在還有幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
18268.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
18286.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
今天你就重新這個報告其實你們都看過了那指導一下該怎麼怎麼用代號這應該很快吧而且他們也等很久了好那這個我們就一個禮拜內把它處理好可以嗎好好收到謝謝委員好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
18289.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
18301.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
謝謝陳委員 謝謝次長不是不是 加一部長喔 聽嘛聽嘛 次長的聽比較好來 楊耀委員質詢好 謝謝主席主席我請教社工司 蘇司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
18323.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
18337.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
市長我們來討論幾個有關社工的問題就是說在社工的職涯上大概我們招募這麼困難大概它存在幾個問題大概普遍我們會認為低薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
18342.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
18369.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
勞務高 職涯發展沒有很大的期待性那這三個大問題 這三個困境呢公部門比較有可能著力的大概就是薪資的部分所以本席先跟你討論一下社工薪資的部分其實我們社工大概會隨公務員調薪加薪 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
18371.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
18390.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
那相較於過去的本薪和家籍都原本都是新臉制度可是現在我們的家籍的部分呢包括年資碩士學歷社工師指導等等我們採採取多都是採取定額的方式那會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
18393.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
18406.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
會不會影響未來譬如說軍工教調薪的時候他定額的部分其實他是沒有辦法調的你懂我的意思嗎我的問題你能理解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
18407.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
18427.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
因為目前謝謝委員關心一直很關心社工的一些福利待遇那我們社工的分部他可能在民間單位那也可能在公部門那在公部門裡面有一些是公職社工師他就是跟正職的公務員是一樣的公職的不算他都跟著公務員條 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
18428.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
18456.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
那第二類就是約聘僱人員那約聘僱人員目前是用新典的方式沒有錯那這個部分他也是廣義的公務人員因此公務人員的加薪他也是跟著加的對就是本份的部分可以加我現在講的是我們每一年加一千塊嘛這一千塊是定額的不會隨著公務員加委員講一千塊可能是那個民間單位的是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
18457.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
18473.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
我們民間的社工如果他經過考核接受政府委託或是補助的社工我們目前已經有一套進階的機制那他如果考核通過一年就可以每一年加一千所以這個部分是沒有調的 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
18475.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
18499.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
民間社工也是有調那第二個跟委員關心的那個約聘僱的這個社工呢第一個他這群人他也是有考核的那如果考核通過呢他也是可以調整他的薪資第二個是當公務人員調薪的時候他也是公務員所以他也可以調我現在講的是非公職人員的定額的部分就每一年加一千塊的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
18501.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18504.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
你可能不大理解我的問題那個1000是不是固定沒有隨著那個調整固定1000 1000往上 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18523.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18526.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
市長請回座我再問一下市長市長就是說我們現在是到7年就停嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18539.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18553.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
你們有沒有考慮七年以後當然假如每一年都加可能在財政的負擔上太大你們有沒有考慮七年以後就是每兩年或每三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18556.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18573.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
再有獎勵的方式那謝謝委員因為委員您這邊提到一年加一千那的確就是民間的社工的目前的新制的一個制度那目前為止我們的確是行政院核定的是最多可以進七次 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18574.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18593.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
就是七階但是我們目前在規劃那個商案2.0的時候我們也已經有提出來我們希望為公部門的社工的薪資在爭取的過程那我們同時也要來爭取民間社工的一個薪資所以我們已經也提出來說想要在民間社工薪資七階我們希望再增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18595.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18611.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
目前我們正在彙整資料跟行政院來做報告每年都加可能會有問題可是七年過後就停這個也會有一些問題所以我們會繼續爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18615.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18632.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
市長我們在5月10號凱道集結了超過1萬個人他們大概提出了六大訴求我看他們裡面有一個訴求是推動訪視助理員的制度我想請教一下市長就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18634.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18645.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
助理現在我們沒有仿視助理員的制度對不對那仿視助理員的工作是不是就是由現在的社工在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18646.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18672.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
因為我大概有關心的一下齁,那這個仿事員應該是在托育這方面的仿事的工作那是不是可以由我們社家署來做一個說明?那個,呃...各位委員報告,就是我們在那個保姆的管理裡面其實是叫做仿事輔導員仿事什麼員?仿事輔導員就是仿事助理員 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18673.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18698.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
他們的訴求跟你們現在的訪視輔導員不一樣不一樣那不一樣為什麼社家署跑出來回答這個應該是社公司的吧不是因為他是整個托育業務的一部分就是說他的目的是不是在預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18699.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18710.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
進行預防性的訪視跟高風險家庭的追蹤報告委員其實這個案子因為我們去年就已經在4月30跟5月1號我們事實上另外針對就是訪視輔導員的功能跟訪視輔導員這邊針對特殊個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18716.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18730.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
他可能會有增強他的能力跟訪視評次的部分所以我們去年事實上已經重新訂定了直轄市跟縣市政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引那這個指引事實上就是請這個居家托育這邊要做分級的訪視跟輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18731.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18761.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
那这些访视辅导员呢他事实上采取的是不预约跟安排不同的时段去访视那这个过程中假设他是特殊需求譬如说是发育迟缓的小儿童出养的儿童加外安置的儿童或者是他收治的儿童有照顾风险跟持续受伤的情况的话那这个访视辅导员他应该要增加至少他应该增加的访视次数到至少六次所以这个是去年在针对这一个居家托育服务中心的访视辅导员我们就有加强了这个部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18761.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18785.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
那我們能不能理解說他的訴求裡面的推動訪視助理員制度我們現在已經在做了他們這個訪視助理員制度我這樣聽起來比較像是他們可能覺得訪視輔導員不夠但是我們也在是數量不夠還是工作範圍不夠我們不清楚他提我請謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18788.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18816.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
這個凱道的這一群我們的民間友人他想要仿照瑞典有一個制度就是比較是初級預防的一個仿式助理有點像是預防性的一個服務那其實台灣沒有這個仿式助理員沒有這個制度但是我們有很多的支持性的服務方案那其實它的性質跟瑞典這個性質是很像的 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18816.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18835.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
也就是說我們現有的人力跟制度其實已經是cover掉他們現在要推動的這個制度 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18836.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18858.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我也覺得好像是像你們這樣答覆的就是說可能是名稱的問題那有沒有建立一個制度其實並不是重點重點是相關的工作到底夠不夠人力做那人力到底有沒有把工作落實好這個才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18859.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18878.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
是不是在制度內部該工作的每個職種都有好好的去處理讓他不要漏膏的這個部分在制度內部可以一個一個把那個可能的漏洞補起來對 重點大概是這樣子好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝梁委員 謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18885.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18891.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
閻寬恆 閻寬恆 閻寬恆委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18894.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18900.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
接下來我們請賴會員質詢謝謝主席我們這個血汗委員會等了好幾個小時才輪到花園那我請我們衛福部次長還有社家署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18917.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18939.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
市長,我想今天我們大家共同討論凱凱這一個案子那我們也充分的討論,就稱呼主席講的,他說叫我青菜公公的那我想就是說跟市長跟副署長就是做一個探討,所謂社工的一個督導跟外聘的督導,他們前者上 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18941.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18970.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
權責上其實基本上有很多的一個分工那性質上也有很大的一個差異那如果我們說社工督導是機構內的主管那外聘的督導就是機構外的一個顧問是不是這樣子呢委員這張表其實做得很清楚他我想在現實的運作狀況下大家就是像委員這樣子的分類那個等一下時間暫停主席我的電腦沒有那個螢幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18992.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18999.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
反正我不要問了啦 主席 借你的口就是講說凱凱案跟這個林業情沒有關係啊 給你說就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
19002.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
19009.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
你這個螢幕沒有出來啊你影響到我的質詢的品質啊所以我的重點就是要講這些剛剛後面螢幕剛剛是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
19035.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
19050.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
那剛剛羊藥就有羊藥那我尾七點,那你要不要幫我講,你幫我講我就不要問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
19052.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
19078.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
好謝謝主席我想說次長這個很明顯就是說用這個圖表裡頭我們去看到了就是說社工督導跟外聘的一個督導其實在權職上在身份上在功能上其實是完全不同的最重要就是說社工督導其實他是管理就是我們機構內的主管所以他是可以介入個案的而且他事實上有他機構內部對他的指揮監督職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
19082.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
19108.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
機構內部對他的社工督導因為他是聘他作為社工督導所以他有指揮監督的責任那外聘督導是不是就誠如就是說我們是辦一個那個講座然後這是我們邀請就是外來的一個顧問還是一個講師這樣子的一個性質我想機構請外聘督導事實上就是讓這些經驗豐富或者是具有更多不同職能專業能力的這一些專家來 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
19109.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
19127.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
對於我們機構內部的督導或者是工作人員提升他的職能那提供他們更多的資源跟了解市長我請教你一下到底外聘督導他有沒有機會就是實際參與個案的一個環伺還是說他可以直接管理指揮我們機構內的人員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
19129.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
19152.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
我想謝謝委員這樣詢問事實上是說內部的這個原來機構內部的社工督導或者是機構內他們的工作人員的這個訪視員或社工他事實上是在找外聘督導的過程中說我們需要請外聘督導來協助我們了解或給我們更多資訊說我的他也可以針對整個通案來做教育上面的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
19153.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
19178.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
也可以針對特定個案說這個個案我處理得很困難或者說我有一些知識上的資訊需要你來幫忙我想市長你把這個外聘的一個督導跟我們的社工督導講的這個權責還有就是他的工作分配講得很清楚啦倒是本期有注意到國民黨之前有一位議員他在之前講了他說林彥琴就是受聘來監督整個居托房市計畫的一個督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
19180.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
19198.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
指控這個林委員隱匿身份假裝正義的第三方在這裡我想是不是就是說國民黨的議員其實對於就是整個志工的一個系統不熟悉所以他引用的一個錯誤其實這完全就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
19199.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
19221.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
不是只有林業勤受到這樣的一個傷害在很多第一線的這個外聘的那個督導也受到了很多的一個傷害這個是混淆社社工就是這整體的社會對社工的一個認知當然我們也希望我們也希望藉由這樣的一個事件因為凱凱這是一個悲劇那這個悲劇在這個裡頭我們希望就是說可以在這個整個事件裡頭我們得到了一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
19228.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
19254.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
我們應該要得到的這個正確的一個那個觀念還有就是那個兒童那個進捐兒童基金會這個是一個法人的一個基金會是不是這個是進捐是法人基金會嗎對柴山法人我要請問一下這一位是我們的什麼官員社交署副署長你是我們科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
19255.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
19275.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
科長我覺得你在立法院備詢你不應該是這樣的一個態度當然我們知道就是說你們會場累了因為這個會議從早上9點到這個時候不要是這個樣子謝謝所以我想是這個是學校的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
19279.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
19294.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
好簡單的來講我想大家都把這個就是這兩個這兩個工作的前者講得非常清楚了我也不佔用大家太多的時間葉燕姿再來是葉燕姿嗎葉燕姿要繼續講這樣我就繼續講了不然如果檢控的時候葉燕姿又繼續講 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
19305.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
19318.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
在這裡還是要強調就是說還給社會人員一個清白我們不要讓社會人員變成就是我們政治的一個提款機那這裡我也特別就是要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
19320.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
19340.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
就我們的市長做一個建議就是說你們在督導這個地方政府的時候要明確去釐清外聘的一個督導的角色跟責任的一個邊界避免外界去誤會這個他的角色跟混淆第二個就是外聘的督導其實是很容易引發誤解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
19341.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
19369.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以說這個名稱需不需要修正這個我們把它當成是一個議題那也希望就是說大家來探討看看那希望就是兩個月內給我一個書面的一個資料那還有就是說我們的外聘專家改成外聘的顧問這個是不是更貼近我們的角色呢讓社會大眾可以了解清楚他的職責避免未來就是引發很多的一個認知上的一個錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
19370.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
19396.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
報告委員 因為外聘督導這個在社工界長期已經是這樣運作所以在名稱上或者是在他的這個權責上面我們會再去把他的這個角色跟責任邊界做一個釐清至於說名稱上面怎麼樣去處理請委員容我們再去做一些規劃好 那我們研究看看好 謝謝主席你再給我們補充 我要補充一整組好我在這邊肯定所有全國的社工 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
19397.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
19419.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
你們都很辛苦那這種事情不然要發生那已經發生了那我們就要好好的處理往後不要再有這種悲劇那大家的那個收入也不是很高我看社工的待遇也不是很好大家都很辛苦所以在這邊再次跟大家肯定我們也希望處長回去看他有什麼時間再管他 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
19421.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
19429.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
台服更加好的啦 沛眼地區 昏殯醫院 都要給人家加薪啦再來就是這個名稱 我今天開宗明義講 我就講督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
19434.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
19460.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
我都搞不清楚這是什麼內部督導外部督導今天聽到現在才搞清楚所以這個名稱這個頭銜可能要改這樣是不妥當的所以要改的東西要進步的東西很多我們就往正向正能量看今天排這個案子也不是說要去K誰都沒有我們是希望精進然後也沒有我都說對勢不對人所以大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
19460.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
19467.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
大家就慘開心胸講謝謝賴委員謝謝主席 謝謝蘇醫師 賴委員 謝謝各位來 接續我們 葉元智你先不要了 你不要再講太久了請今天執行麻煩請那個衛福部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
19492.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
19515.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
最近很多那個醫生朋友的反應就是說那個健保署把很多醫材啊都納入健保然後但是因為那個開會定的健保點數幾副都過低導致於有很多有一些廠商不想做要退出我想問一下通常健保署就是每一年啊要列入那麼多醫材或藥本來他們都自費嘛後來要列入他主要原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
19517.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19541.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
健保署收载这一个几副项目的部分有几个评估的方向一个事情就是他可能在这个医学会会来向健保署提出对于他们常用或者是希望能够收载到健保内部的医材来提出审查那另外的话当然有的时候是厂商因为对厂商来讲台湾因为我们健保cover 99.9%的民众所以对厂商来说如果他持续在自费的品项来讲他可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19542.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19571.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
它能够这个被使用的量比较少所以有些厂商也会来跟我们要求希望能够收载到健保里面所以包含了专业医学会包含了这些医材的厂商或药品的厂商那当然有的时候可能是长期我们发现说某一些比较已经有某些医材或者是药品它已经是越来越是主要的被使用的情况那这个时候我们可能也会来跟医学会或者是这个需求端来讨论说是不是愿意让我们收载到健保里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19572.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19601.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
我是覺得這個部分以後因為我最近聽很多醫生在講就有的他們的譬如說外科醫師他打骨釘什麼之類的他說有的骨釘是自費市場有的是健保市場其實都已經行之有年了好好的忽然間他們民眾喜歡的自費的骨釘忽然被納入到健保那被納入健保之後那個廠商有的就不想做然後反而就打亂他們本來的一些醫療的行為那這部分是不是可以請健保署就在 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19601.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19627.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
做類似工作或開會的時候可以加強溝通因為譬如說我舉一個例子像這個之前大家新聞上面也都有看過就是一個手術的封合劑那有一個廠商叫做泰爾茂那這家廠商一開始的時候就是因為他被給的點數太低了所以他們就決定就不賣了那後來好像健保署又不救所以後來又重新找廠商來談把他的點數增加所以他又願意繼續留下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19628.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19653.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
我有看到非常多藍衣生有的綠色那跟政治都無關啦有的藍的有的綠的啊都跳出來罵這個事情各位有人報告喔可見說他在開會的過程當中的處理真的是有一點粗糙這個合價的部分在健保署這邊的相關合價事實上他是有些參考的公式那再來的話就是說其實當時在這一個醫材的部分事實上是好幾家廠商都來跟我們要求收載到健保裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19653.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19668.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
是廠商來跟我們要求收窄那他要求收窄然後他自己又覺得點數太低然後退出其實是廠商來跟我們要求收窄那所以你們不是說大家先談就是說如果你要進來的話我給你多少點數你願意接受你再進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19670.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19692.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
是說他談了你直接給了給了你要或不要一句話健保收窄裡面他如果是同類型的他當然會有一個收窄的價格幾付價格那這個價格其實不是健保署自己這邊訂的第一個事情就是剛剛跟委員報告他必須要有一些公式第二個部分他必須經過我們的共擬會共同擬定會議那共同擬定會議裡面不單純只有健保署我們就拿這個太陽帽當作例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19695.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
19709.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
你看像當時因為因為這個已經議題在被大家關注了所以後來健保署開一個記者會他把類似的藥全部都秀出來就是有百特醫療有泰爾茂還有埃莫高 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
19710.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
19729.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
然後就拿出來可是大家發現說你核給的健保點數11831的的百特跟奧特利這兩種實際上它的容量的計算方式是不一樣而且它的用途也不一樣等於是你把不同的容量的東西跟不同用途的東西都核給一樣的點數 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
19730.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
19741.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
所以這樣的比較基礎就會有一個落差再跟你補充一下我一直講完再請你一定回答好了還有就是當時在開會的時候也沒有列出國際價格還有一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19746.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19762.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
這個建議支付點數你們有一個報告裡面有提到像這個封合劑在臨床上臨床上申報使用是用4L為大宗可是我們剛列出來的表格你們比較基礎是拿2克來做比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19763.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19791.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
所以這個然後再加上這個藥特別是有非常多的醫生有很多不同意見其實我只是提出來就是說既然健保署基於需要因為剛剛市長一開始講了很多原因嘛要把那些藥納入既然有這麼多的需要把它納入那在核架以及開會的過程當中他那個資料的詳實性然後還有就是擴大醫界的意見的參與我覺得這一塊是不是可以多做一點啊不然的話真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19792.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19807.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
其實聽到蠻多醫生在對於盒價這件事情他們是有很多意見的我們當然希望說這個盒的價格能夠讓大家在整個使用上面或者是在醫材韌性上面能夠更好不過也報告委員就是說因為健保畢竟它是總額的 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
19808.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
19831.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
所以常常我們比如說A醫學會來希望我們收窄了某一項給付B醫學會就會說你會影響到我們的點值這也是我們常遇到的狀況所以說當然在健保這邊它的核價不是由健保署自己來決定就像剛剛跟您報告的第一它有一些公式第二它在我們的購你會議裡面包含了我們的健保的委員以及購你會的委員還有醫界跟藥界還有相關的醫學會 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
19833.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
19856.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
在供你會議上面會來針對健保署這邊必須考慮在收窄這些藥品裡面去進行評估那這裡面當然我們會尊重專家的意見好當然各自的我們也必須承認台灣事實上各自的醫院或者是醫師有比較習慣用的品牌好那我們盡量滿足有的時候可能就會有對雖然因為剛剛你也提到那個健保點子因為我們去年有一個組決議嘛就是健保1.0.95元嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
19857.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
19885.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
那本來好像是說六月底的時候要實施那目前衛福部這方面的規劃是怎樣我們固定在每個每一季我們都有點值上面的這個計算好那所以就像委員您現在所看到我們的困境我們收窄的越多給付的越高那是不是點值上面就受到影響沒有沒有這個細節不講啦我就是說因為我們那時候是講說1.0.95元嘛那時候部長邱太元也說他認為有信心可以達到嘛那因為現在已經五月快五月底了 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
19885.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
19902.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
再一個月所以真的6月底是可以實施1.0.95元各位有報告其實應該是說因為我們固定的這個應該說健保因為總額的關係我們還有每一季還有區域還有醫院各區域以及各層級醫院他都有不同的點值計算好那這個東西來自於原來的點數應該是說最低1.95啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
19903.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
19927.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
對那所以這個部分跟委員報告應該是之後我們會再跟委員會做報告那我們其實健保署本來就固定每一季甚至每個每一季都會有各區域還有各層級醫療院所他的點值我現在不是講之後啦我現在是說6月底以後是不是就可以不管是哪一區或哪一級我們是一直以來我們都在針對點值的部分做進口1.0.95元啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
19928.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
19956.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我們一直都在針對這個方向做監控跟方向的討論那做得到嗎會做得到嗎我們一直在努力那當然現在的那個是主決議啦報告委員應該是說我們現在手上當然還有各分區不一樣的現象有的區它的健保耗用沒有那麼高它甚至可以到1.1塊錢有些區它的健保耗用比較高它點值可能就比較低這個我們都知道啦這個其實去年在討論這個案子的時候大家都討論過啦現在就是說因為有一個承諾嘛6月底的時候要最少0.95元到底是有沒有做不做得到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
19957.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
19965.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
一直都在往這個方向走所以還是有信心就對了報告委員我們是六月底當月我們是一劑一劑好謝謝好謝謝葉委員謝謝次長陳冠廷委員改成書面質詢林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在黃婕改書面質詢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
19986.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20015.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
本日會議詢答全部結束委員王毅敏、陳冠廷、邱振軍、廖偉祥、黃姐所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員執行即未為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20016.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20019.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
本次會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝大家 |