| IVOD_ID |
16686 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16686 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-19T08:30:27+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-19T12:52:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:21:33 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc9d66b4f497eb78a0802c785c9e4cb86152bdb8234cc31cacc8f6a310645761bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月19日及21日兩天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:27 - 12:52:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1911.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1925.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初席委員7人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開始開會我們進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第16次全體委員會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1927.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1947.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
時間中華民國一百二十四年五月十二日星期一上午九十二分至十二時二十三分地點本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員黃國昌委員等十二人列席委員鄭天才委員等四人列席官員監察院秘書長李君毅等人主席莊昭吉委員瑞雄報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1949.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1965.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
第二案至第四案分別為行政院人事行政總署考選部全區部檢送預算凍結書面報告請查照案各一案第五案至第八案為法務部檢送預算凍結書面報告請查照案等四案決定第二案至第八案均均與被查提報院會討論事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1967.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1995.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第一案為監察院檢送預算凍結專案報告請查照案一案第二案至第七案為行政院人事情任總處檢送預算凍結書面報告及專案報告請查照案等六案第八案至第十三案為考試院及所屬主管機關檢送預算凍結書面報告及專案報告請查照案等六案第十四案至第三十二案為法務部檢送預算凍結書面報告及專案報告等請查照案等十九案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1996.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2014.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本次會議由委員王逸川等11人提出質詢決議一 報告及詢答完畢二 法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目第14案至第32案均准予動之提報院會三 監察院主管預算凍結項目第一案准予動之提報院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2015.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2027.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
4.行政院人事行政總署及所屬主管預算凍結項目第2案至第5案及第7案均准予動之提報院會第6案令定期繼續處理5. |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2027.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2034.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目第8案至第13案均准予動之提報院會6. |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2034.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2042.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2045.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2063.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
請問各位就上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話那議事錄確定那我們接著介紹道場委還有議要列席官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2065.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2089.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個我們下一次我們本委員會我們還是要確認一件事情就是因為上一次我們在確認議事錄有無錯或遺漏的時候這到底這個確認要不要大家每個委員發表意見就是要或不要因為上次在大法庭的時候他說無異議的話如果沒有回答到底算有異議還無異議上次大法官有質疑這個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2091.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2112.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
國昌委員或是黃委員就這部分你們有沒有想法就是上次大法官有對於無異議然後沒有人表示反對的話無異議通過 大法官好像有在質疑這個點所以我們將來對於會議事錄有無錯或遺漏這到底需不需要每個委員表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2114.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2141.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就本委員會是不是要我們做一個統一的做法其實我覺得沒有必要因為上次現在法庭只是凸顯出來他們對於立法院相關意識規則的運作跟意識的潛力欠缺基本的認識嘛他們欠缺基本的認識我們還隨著他起舞要浪費多少意識時間啊每一次都這樣改從每個委員會到院會都要這樣改那不是開玩笑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2142.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2158.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好 了解 那請問王委員就這部分有沒有意見對啦 這個主席剛剛問的這個問題就是開玩笑這事情這樣問所以我們還是依照慣例顯示對意識的不熟人嘛 開玩笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2160.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2190.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我不懂 你說大法官問這個問題在開玩笑你問的問題也在開玩笑啦這個事情要問那個 王委員這樣啦齁因為上一次我們現場法庭的大法官對這東西有意義嘛有意見嘛那我們要避免將來我們的會議議事錄被認定說是無效所以我們要確認我只是說本委員會我們確認一套議事規則那如果大家沒有意見我們就依照過往的規定本委員會確定一個議事規則啊其他委員會要不要確認一個議事規則所以是個別委員會啊這第一步就是開玩笑嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2190.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2215.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
欸 王委員你要懂意思規則欸轉 轉 轉 你換人家開話就你第一次問這個問題啊 好好 那沒關係 你不懂意思規則就算了齁好 意思規則我們委員會自治不是啊 你問這個問題 剛才我國聰要說這叫開玩笑啊你問這題就是開玩笑啊好啦 如果這樣啊你換人家就一個約定俗成的做法來你問那個王委員 如果這樣那你應該去質疑大法官在問什麼問題質疑大法官 我質疑大法官 我質疑你剛才說這句話啊 國聰也給你解說說問這個問題就是開玩笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2219.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2240.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
好 沒關係你不懂就算了 如果大家沒有意見 我們就依照過往多年的議事慣例 本委員會的慣例如果當我們詢問有無意義 那大家沒有表示反對的意思的話那就是無意義 我想說我們就依照這多年的慣例來處理那我們接著介紹到場的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2246.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2263.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那因為剛因為我有詢問會議事務有無錯誤會議論那大家都沒有意見所以議事務確定好那我們接著介紹到場的委員黃國昌委員還有王逸川委員我們接著介紹應邀列席的官員司法院副秘書長王副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2265.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2278.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
法務部部長、政部長法務部調查局副局長、吳副局長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、陳代理主任委員內政部警政署張署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2281.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2302.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 其餘沒有介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次會議排定一三兩天為一次會今日邀請思考院副秘書長法務部部長等機關率所屬相關單位列席就民眾反映受到罷免聯署簡訊顯非商業廣告目的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2303.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2318.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
以質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益進行專題報告並被質詢那我們現在進行報告每月發表時間三分鐘我們先請市法院副秘書長王富彌爽報告然後接著我們會請法務部部長鄭部長報告好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2327.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2348.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席各位委員各位先進大家早安今天逢要列席貴委員會代表司法院進行專題報告深感榮幸那請說明本院意見如下進行指教民眾收到罷免連署的簡訊呢那如果是因為公務機關或者是非公務機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2349.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2362.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
洩露個人資料而是侵害人民權益的時候呢可能違反了個人資料保護法也就是個資法等相關規定那民眾可以向管轄法院提起救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2364.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2392.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我關於民事責任部分呢 個資法對於公務機關還有非公務機關的蒐集處理利用一般個人資料跟特種個人資料的要件在第六條第一項以下的都有明文的規定那如果違反了這些規定導致個人的資料被不法的蒐集處理利用或者是其他的侵害個人權利的情況那就需要負民事損害賠償責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2395.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2400.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
刑事责任部分呢各执法41条有规定行为人主观上 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2402.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2428.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
为自己或是他人不法的利益或是损害他人利益的意图违反了各自法第六条十五十六十九二十二十一条的规定足以生损害他人权利的时候呢那是有五年以下有期徒刑还有并科新台币一百万元以下罚金的刑事责任那另外同法四十二条呢也有刑事责任的规定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2429.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2437.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第三點有關於行政救濟部分呢對於非公務機關如果違反了個資法47條48條第一項第二項第三項個資法49條個資法59條的規定呢都有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2450.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2467.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
有相關的那個罰還的那個責任那另外個資法24條呢也有規定相關的行政救濟那以上 以上報告呢就請 敬請各位委員那個指教謝謝各位好 謝謝黃富密那下一位我們請鄭部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2475.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2495.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生早安今天奉邀列席貴委員會就民眾反映收到罷免連署簡訊顯微商業廣告目的的運用指以各自洩漏而侵害人民權利代表本部列席報告並被諮詢那緊就討論提綱提供意見如下那 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2496.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2511.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
個人資料的保護規範管理公務機關收集處理利用這部分的個資法就公務機關對一般個資的收集處理明文規定應有特定目的並符合執行法定職權必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2513.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2531.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
範圍內經當事人同意或對當事人權利無侵害等情侶之一方得為之對一般個人資料的利用應與執行法定職務必要範圍內為之並與收集特定目的相符非有各執法第16條但書所列情形之一不得為特定目的外之使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2532.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2554.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
另外違反的責任這部分按各自法41條規定意圖為自己或第三人部法治利益或損害他人的利益而違反上海規定處五年以下有期徒刑的病科薪台幣100萬元以下罰金公務員假借職務喪失權利機會方法而犯前階的罪加重起刑至二分之一那公務機關適用國家賠償法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2558.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2574.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那非公務機關這部分呢個資法就非公務機關對一般個資的收集處理已有規定應有的土地目的並符合當事人自行公開或其他已合法公開的個人資料經當事人同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2575.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2591.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
個人資料是取自一般可得的來源對當事人的權利無侵害等等情形之一使得為之其利用除有為增進公共利益所必要為防止他人權利之重大危害經當事人的同意有利於當事人之權利這些情形之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2593.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2613.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
而可為目的外資利用 應以收集至特定目的必要範圍內為之那違反的責任這部分會公務機關違反本法的規定自個人資料 自部法收集處理利用或其他侵害當事人的權利 互損害賠償責任主管機關可裁處五萬元以上 五十萬元以下罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2614.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2640.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
並令限期改正 坦系意圖為自己或第三者不法利益或損害他人之利益而違反除五年以下期徒刑病科的病科一百萬以下的罰金至於此間民眾反映的情形及各執法相關規定的適用問題本部尊重全責主管機關個人資料保護委員會籌備處的意見及解釋以上包括敬請主席及各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2646.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2653.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好謝謝部長那其餘的提出報告順便報告機關有沒有要口頭補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2654.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2679.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好那如果各位沒有的話好那我們機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在進行詢答那本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本委員會詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2689.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2693.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第一個問題請教一下司法院跟法務部的代表PBS民調對賴清德總統執政週年針對11個面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2714.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2738.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
各項施政的滿意跟不滿意度做出了民調知不知道在司法改革滿意度排名第幾名司法院副秘書長知不知道有在媒體上看到排名第幾名滿意度是排名最後最後一名 不滿意度呢最高 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2738.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2762.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以你對賴清德總統執政週年到目前為止事發改革你打幾分您個人打幾分不好打分數來請法務部部長那個民調是可以做一個參考所以你個人打幾分這個我是認為是及格你認為是及格嘛好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2763.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2790.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們來看一下啦 部長的認知為什麼跟一般的民眾啊脫節這麼嚴重第一個問題啊又一個重大的金融犯跑啦徐少東啊關係很好啊後台很硬啊跑啦來 請教一下現在發布通緝了沒有呃 這個是因為這個是審理中的一個案件有沒有發布通緝這是要看法院來 法院發布通緝了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2791.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2794.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
目前還沒有為什麼還沒有為什麼還沒有 多給他一點時間跑嗎現在還在具體 應該是還在具體階段你覺得具體的到嗎來請教法務部部長 這個個案最高檢察總長講了好幾次啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2817.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2836.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這種案子要盯好啊但我現在看不懂啊一個基本的問題徐少東在這個案子以前有沒有被通緝過徐少東在這件以前沒有通緝過來看一下早就多次被通緝了啦法院的裁定寫得很清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2837.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2862.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
之前他跟法院申請延長有關於禁止出境出海的法院判決理由寫得很清楚啊前面有通緝未到案的紀錄還不是一次好幾次然後法院在裁定理由當中認定什麼認定說他有應變計畫有私下管道能夠出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2863.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2892.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
結果咧結果好笑了要不要羈押是一回事有實施電子監控嗎有嗎這部分齁這部分那個二審的檢察官有建立那個法院這部分要實施電子監控然後法院沒有採欸因為沒有開庭還沒有到開庭就就所以嘛這個案子來看一下齁第一刻啊二審判了12年 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2894.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2904.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
重刑犯而且那個徐少東啊可怕的是什麼他不是只有吸金洗錢耶他沒有違反反滲透法被起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2906.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2919.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有沒有這部分我們有申請羈押但是因為法院不准我們一層一層來嘛現在人民看不懂嘛我們檢察官這部分都有申請羈押這個法務部部長請你聽我問完問題再回答好不好法務部部長請你聽我問完問題再回答可以嗎可以嗎可以嗎這可以好來人民看不懂啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2934.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2954.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
跑了好幾次被通緝啊重判12年啊還違反反滲透法結果咧沒有羈押就算了連電子監控也沒有連電子監控也沒有 我有說錯嗎 沒有啊現在人跑了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2955.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2975.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我最簡單一個事情誰要負責還是法務部跟司法院繼續上演踢皮球大賽來部長你覺得誰要負責這部分我們檢查在這三個案件都有申請羈押來司法院副秘書長所以是不是法官要檢討是不是這樣這個部分那個法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2980.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3008.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
在二審的那個法院呢 他是有訂那個庭期就是 就是要準備要那個要審理來 這個案子審理多久了這個案子審理多久了人跑了現在才說 啊我們原來有要訂庭期啊去年的時候就已經判12年了然後現在突然說人跑了開始裝忙說法院要訂庭期too late |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3009.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3034.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
人跑掉了是這樣嗎那個各位原報告齁就是從4月就是那個鍾文智那個的那個案件之後呢其實司法院也都有就是請我老實講啦鍾文智是第一個案子嗎之前朱國隆不就跑掉了嗎朱國隆跑掉了法務部司法院要不要各自回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3036.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3065.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
要不要回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿朱國榮跑了 裝忙一陣子崇文智跑了 再裝忙一陣子現在連徐少東都跑了為什麼人民對司法這麼憤怒有關係就沒關係嘛那後台硬啊違反反滲透法又怎麼樣背叛12年又怎麼樣不要說沒有羈押連電子監控都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3067.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3096.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
來請法務部部長不好意思來請調查局副局長我接到檢舉啊調查局是不是有個調查官啊裝密錄器在超商偷拍未成年少女的群體有沒有這回事有這回事我們已經在依照我們的程序在處理了什麼時候發生的事情應該是大概兩個禮拜以前兩個禮拜以前處理到今天處理成什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3097.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3118.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我們已經...我們已經...督察室有找他來約談過然後呢?我們會盡快的開考機會來做處理現在有停職嗎?目前沒有停職目前沒有停職我們要經過...考機會要經過一定程序之後才會做這樣的處理可以快點開嗎?會 盡快 我們會盡快開不是啊 做這種令人髮指的行為啊做這種令人髮指的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3120.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3144.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
結果你們調查員裡面的人跟我檢舉啊說看他好好的沒有事啊連停職都沒有啊這什麼關針啊報告員我們在知道這個狀況第二天我們就已經去找他約談過然後呢什麼時候要開考機會我們會盡快安排就開考機會盡快是多久我想我們會回去之後我們已經在討論我們在找適當的時間我會盡快還要在找適當的時間喔這樣的人還適合繼續當調查官嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3151.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3176.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
請調查局盡快不要讓大家產生錯覺一個堂堂的調查官做這種令人髮指的事情結果現在還好好的什麼事都沒有來接下來請法務部部長從列同的案子大家就開始在講無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3177.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3204.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
台灣的無期徒刑根本是假的台灣的無期徒刑是假的沒有真的在搞無期徒刑我們從具體的案子來講1999年一個大黑道殺人罪遭判無期徒刑2017年假釋出獄負保護管署結果咧把假釋放出來了以後做了什麼事情來我們繼續看 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3206.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3228.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
把假釋放出來了以後繼續啊搞買兇殺人啊洗錢啊詐欺啊恐嚇取材啊樣樣都來啊第一個問題啊法務部有沒有檢討當初這個假釋是怎麼做的有跟委員報告事實上這個假釋的這個問題假釋的要件是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3229.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3251.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
假釋的話就是有千毀十據然後呢執行的有超過有些二分之一這樣就可以囉那武器農要二十萬這部分還是要千毀十據啦要具體個案所以你覺得他這樣有千毀十據嗎這部分是那時候是如果有千毀十據的人出來又買兇殺人又洗錢又詐欺又恐嚇取材喔你不會覺得很諷刺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3253.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3278.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這個假釋認定是怎麼定的 有缺毀時劇認定他有缺毀時劇結果出來又買兇殺人造成更大的危害當初這個假釋誰准的這個是應該十一零幾回去了解好不好這個假釋應該是在十幾年前的時候的一樣嘛2017年就放出來啦我時間有講錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3280.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3299.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那這部分我們回去再做一個了解需要多久一個禮拜可不可以兩個禮拜而已好 兩個禮拜當初假釋怎麼準的提書面報告給本委員會啊提書面報告給本委員會啊為什麼人民對無期徒刑沒有信心搞假的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3301.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3321.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
殺人了 判無期徒刑又怎麼樣所以這部分我們有提一個草案就是對特殊重大暴力類型的犯罪比如說殺人 殺人未遂判無期徒刑有期徒刑逾十年這邊受刑我們是有提修正案是不得假釋好 這個修正案現在到哪裡在行政院審查中行政院還要審查多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3322.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3336.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
已經開兩次審查一樣嘛我們又陷入了無限巡迴嘛當初吹哨者保護法法務部也是說我們早就提出來了一直在行政院審查研議審查恩典 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3338.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3365.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
棄保潛逃罪不法關說罪一模一樣法務部也是說我們早提出來了就在行政院研議研議N年來就有關於法務部所謂提出來的這個法案部長你判斷行政院還要研議多久嗯這部分我們沒有辦法判斷這我們會會禁訴會禁訴對這不是到行政院了嗎對在這部分我們會這個你可以禁訴缺少者保護法沒辦法禁訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3367.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3393.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
不法關說沒辦法禁訴 棄保潛逃沒辦法禁訴請部長回去轉告行政院院長卓榮泰人民很憤怒啊 人民很憤怒啊問一下卓榮泰 他還要研議多久問一下卓榮泰 他還要研議多久全民都在等他的答案這委員放心啊 這個我們會放心 從你們過去的時機有辦法放心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3395.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3420.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
從你們過去的時期有辦法放心嗎好來繼續再往下看2012年民間司改會發動了一個追緝二檢的行動針對檢察官在問案的時候威脅恐嚇逼人認罪壓人取共提出沉痛的呼籲當初這個追緝二檢行動的三位大將 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3421.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3447.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
一位林峰正現在不當黨產管理委員會主任委員一位顧立雄現在是國防部部長一位游博翔現在到憲法法庭當大法官當初這三位代表民間司改會要出來追緝二檢講的話是直立有聲請問一下部長你覺得當初要追緝二檢的問題今天還存在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3449.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3478.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這部分我們都有通函我們就有要求任何的機會就要求我們這個在依法定程序所以你沒有回答我的問題嗎?這個問題還存在嗎?我們是隨時注意我想這個所謂二檢這部分我們就依法官法這部分我們要做一個依法官來做一個處理做什麼處理?不要講空洞的啦講那麼空泛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3479.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3499.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那事實上我們有受理,依法官受理檢察個案拼件已經有982件,每年收案217件來我們看一下當初監察院是怎麼糾正法務部的來看一下,這是十幾年前檢察官代表國家刑事犯罪偵查追溯 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3500.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3527.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
以不當的方式怒罵威脅受詢問人不僅是個人的言行不當更嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴也侵害受詢問人人權的保障十幾年前我這三位民間司改會的夥伴講的是直立有聲現在呢現在呢現在會不會出現這樣的狀況我希望部長回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3528.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3554.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好好的了解一下第一線實際上面的狀況好好的了解今天我敢在這邊公開質詢我手上就是有實據我很想把錄音帶放出來好好讓全民聽一聽我們的檢察官現在是怎麼在問案的好 謝謝謝謝黃委員 那下一位我們請王逸川委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3569.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3590.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請法務部副局長麻煩法務部然後這個中選會的代表跟數位部的代表 謝謝中選會 好 數法部委員長好還有調查局 對好 麻煩副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3597.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3619.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好,我先請教調查局的這個副局長先請教你的原因是因為你們的報告寫得最好這個把所謂的簡訊的分類寫得非常清楚簡訊的來源不是只有我們有手機號碼會收到各式各樣我們用網路購物,貨到了也會收到簡訊各式各樣的這個分類 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3622.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3651.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那我先想要請教一下就是說這一個發送簡訊啊發送簡訊的人有問題還是提供提供這個這個電話給發送簡訊的單位如果違反個資法是哪一個哪一個有問題報言這個可能要看事實的個案來做認定好我現在假設假設今天召委排的這個題目啊就是說有人收到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3653.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3681.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個簡訊那請他來參與連署嘛假設是這樣那請他參與連署那一定是一定是這個電信公司收到有人給了他一個名冊或者叫電話然後就丟給了這個電信公司付了錢給電信公司那電信公司就傳給了這個不管是手機收到簡訊的人那如果違反個資法那發送訊號發送訊息的這個電信公司有沒有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3682.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3707.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那可能因為如果說有行為的分擔有翻譯的聯絡可能有共犯的問題但是像您講的這個狀況我們不知道他彼此之間聯繫的這個狀況所以還是要看個案的實際就是說我現在假設我有一千個電話號碼我就交給了假設叫中華電信我有一千個電話號碼我交給了中華電信請他幫我傳這些文字那中華電信有沒有事 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3708.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3735.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
中央電信他如果只是接受委託的話他可能在看起來是沒有犯罪的這個意圖也沒有跟他做一個犯罪行為分擔的這個狀況的話那從您講的這樣的表象看起來可能不會有犯罪的問題但是個案還是我們會如果有個案的犯罪我們還是提報到基金署好 這個我了解了第二個請這個法務部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3737.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3761.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我們在選舉前 或者是在罷免前我們都會收到 請踴躍投票會吧 應該會吧 請踴躍投票就是不管是誰傳來的 請踴躍投票那如果有人收到 請不要去投票如果有人收到 請去連署有人收到 請不要去連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3763.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3788.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
這四種嘛 只有我收到訊息 收到請去投票 請不要去投票 請參與連署 請不要參與連署這四件事情 如果按照這個各執法是損害個人 他人個人的利益的時候這四種文字 哪一種會損害到個人的利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3790.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3814.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
最主要是因為他有那個電話電話的通訊的一個一個號碼所以他那個簡訊才會發到這些這些民眾的手裡對那所以這個是這怎麼那個那個個人資料是怎麼來的這個可能還要再去做一個了解但是我想這個應該是屬於各自法的問題這個收集處理利用這是一個怎麼是收集的 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3815.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3840.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
怎麼去處理 後來怎麼利用這收集來處理嘛處理完之後我傳一個訊息給你嘛那是我個人認為我的利益受損我就可以去告發還是怎麼樣他那個如果說當然如果說用戶來講他認為有受損他認為有合乎各支法的那個41條或等其他的相關的規定的話他當然可以去檢舉或者去做一個告發 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3840.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3864.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那這樣檢察官當然以辦案的就會依法來處理來調查看會不會成立這個請中選會我剛剛提的那四個投票前有人通知你說請永樂投票或者是說這個反罷免的一方啊他說這個反正你們投票也不會超過25%啦請不要投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3866.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3889.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
或者現在還有在連署的請踴躍連署或者發一個訊息說請不要去連署這個中選會這四個你們管不管有沒有哪一個妨礙選舉包委員如果說是支持或反對罷免活動的話那我想這個都是罷免宣傳的一種態樣那除非說他那選舉呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3891.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3916.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
選舉也是一樣請不要投票這個我想這個請這個都是一種宣傳的一種行為都可以嗎像以前這個公投的時候啊就有人就什麼貼一個貼紙說請不要投就請不要投好所以這個對於這個訊息的內容基本上中選會不管我講的這四種是你們不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3917.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3932.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
如果是宣傳的行為的話 支持或是不支持我想這個都是宣傳行為的一種好所以這個宣傳說請不要投票請去投票請參加罷免請不要罷免對中選會來說這四個都沒有問題如果是單純的宣傳行為應該是沒有違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3937.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3941.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
除非有人非法利用他人的資料來傳送那非法就請教部長我最近收到叫我去驗車的通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3959.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3971.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我當時去驗車的時候我留下資料的時候他也沒有說什麼五年後會聯絡我啊現在聯絡我的是好幾年前我去驗車的一個民間的代檢場啊他怎麼可以傳簡訊給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3977.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3998.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
可能就是那個代監場有那個客戶的一些的資料這是如何去蒐集當然我們這個就可以啦這個是在我們那個資法裡面規定像那個28條跟29條它裡面公務機關這個是應該是屬於29規公務機關違反本法規定自個人資料遭受不法蒐集處理利用其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3998.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4021.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
侵害當事人權利這個要負損害賠償責任但若證明無故意或過失不在此限所以這個有沒有這個還要做個案的做一個認定做一個認定那事實上整個一個太樣很多那這個是因為各自法的主管機關在一個解釋如何非法好 說起處理用這個要個人資料保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4023.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4032.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
籌備處好那我們就有沒有代表來這個數位部的代表籌備處來請問一下不好意思請問一下我們現在去餐廳訂位子打電話去今天晚上八點王先生試會對方問我說請問手機號碼我就留給他了他只有問這樣我就會留給他大部分都這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4053.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4060.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
過了一個月以後 他傳了一個簡訊給我說 歡迎你再來吃啦 我們最近打五折 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4061.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4084.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我沒有答應他再傳給我啊這樣有沒有違反個資法因為一開始如果說是在定位的時候他可能會是有一個契約或類似契約的關係那這個時候依照個資法的規定他是可以蒐集必要的個人資料例如手機號碼但是之後他如果要做行銷之用的話其實還是需要經過當事人的同意才能夠做這個行銷你這樣說這條就嚴重了 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4087.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4094.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
這條這樣嚴重啊你今天講完之後這事情還蠻嚴重的我們打電話去餐廳他都問我電話號碼嘛這合理嘛我們好像覺得很合理啦因為我剛剛講說我不要給你電話他說那我沒辦法讓你定位喔那我就留電話給你了那留了電話給你之後他也許時間到了我遲到五分鐘他會轉簡訊給我說你遲到你到底有沒有要來對不對過了一個月之後他給我行銷了嘛他給我行銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4116.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4138.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那給我行銷這個動作在你們現在的認定裡頭他也沒有徵得我同意嘛他就是在電話中我也沒有看那個熱熱等的文字嗎我們有時候去簽一大堆他叫我看一堆文字然後說什麼保護啊這樣那現在他如果這樣這種情形他又傳給了消費者有人去檢舉說我上次去吃完之後他又傳簡訊給我你們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4141.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4169.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
就依照目前以往不管是在法務部或是國發會或是我們現在籌備處的韓式的見解就是說當你在做行銷的時候因為它跟一開始它是接受定位的這樣的一個目的是有一點不太一樣的那因為它是不同的目的所以它其實是需要額外再經過當事人的同意說我願意讓你用我的電話號碼做行銷那如果說沒有這樣的一個同意的話基本上確實可能會有違反各自法的這個疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4170.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4177.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
唉唷 那這個事情就麻煩了 這個再請法務部或司法院 大家開一下會 因為這個會很普遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4179.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4205.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
會很普遍啦 我們一般消費者就留電話給人家嘛那留了之後以後又收到如果我不開心了 我可不可以去告發他說你又沒有徵得我同意你怎麼老是傳簡訊給我好 最後一個我們參加活動 愛情部長我們參加活動會留下很多的資料參加社團 坐遊覽車 保險 旅遊都會留下蠻多跟個人資訊有關的這個訊息啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4207.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4226.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那如果這一個剛剛講這個電信公司收到了一組電話號碼假設一千個電話號碼然後他就幫我傳了一個訊息可是這一千組的電話號碼我交給電信公司的時候就是這個委託人交給電信公司的時候其實他也不知道那一千組哪裡來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4228.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4245.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
因為一千組可能是攬攬攬攬攬一通就對了反正這個社團已經二十年了這個社團都有這些社員的名冊或各式各樣的社團的名冊那這個已經攬攬攬攬攬了很久之後大家也都一直傳一傳就沒有事啊結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4248.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4264.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這次有人告發 假設啦 假設他不知道為什麼 目的他告發說 欸 你怎麼有我的電話碼 你怎麼傳簡訊給我未必是跟政治有關啦 就是一般的這樣子那如果有人去告發了 那回頭去找這個提供電話的人啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4265.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4269.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
啊你如果有這個電話,你如果拿到中華電信給你傳訊,這個電話對對來這個承辦人可能說,這個電話我們社團已經二三十年了,就都這個電話啊結果這個提供的人,現在也許會出事嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4280.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4298.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這部分事實上因為提供說不定可能就是一個收集保有這些個人資料的最原始的那個或者是輾轉來的那剛才11條的話是個人資料的收集的特定目的消失所以本來譬如說我們為了旅行做一個名冊裡面有一些聯絡資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4300.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4327.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
那如果說這個特定的目的當是為了旅遊或者某一個特定目的或者期限屆門這個屆門的時候那個當然收集處理的那一位當然就要依主動或依當事人之請求刪除停止處理或利用個人資料但是如果執行職或業務所必須或經當事人署名同意那不再執行所以這個還是要看那個要看個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4328.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4344.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
個案來處理有沒有同意或者有沒有那個個案的情形這個有一條界線啦你想說我常常收到我以前是台中嘛收到台中很多的市議員叫我沒感動的還有以前的議長祝我生日快樂我當時可能有留電話給他我名片有留電話給他可是我現在叫他不好啊我現在跟他不好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4354.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4382.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那他傳給我生日快樂我覺得你怎麼會有我的電話號碼他那個事實上據各自法也不是都是因為他第一條裡面就有規定這個因為他是做一個平衡他自己是為了規範個人資料的收集處理利用以避免人格而前受到侵害並促進個人資料的合理使用還有那個合理使用所以如果有些資料是祝你生日快樂我是認為是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4386.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4399.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
電話號碼是一個經營社會生活必要的工具就像我們這個連這個都是屬於個人的所以這都是屬於個人資料的有些的一個範圍我舉這個例子只是說因為我們到處都會留下我們的電話號碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4408.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4431.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我們也常常收到簡訊我們也不知道那個簡訊是我在哪裡留下電話號碼而收到的簡訊所以個人的利益受損或者是他不當的利用這些資料的這一條界線可能也要有一個清楚讓民眾知道像剛剛提到說我去餐廳訂餐廳電話給這間餐廳這間餐廳兩三個月架一個行銷方案給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4436.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4458.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
既然這中間那條線搞不好有跨過去因為他也沒有我書面同意諸如此類的事情我覺得這個可能相關的單位找個機會給民眾一個共同的這個答案讓大家包括商家也可以有一個依詢以上謝謝謝謝王委員那我們接下來請林倩池委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4476.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4488.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我們麻煩NCC中華電信還有各自保護委員會還有部長跟調查局副局長文豪 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4495.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4511 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
我先接著剛剛因為我剛剛聽那個王玉昌委員的問題我覺得還蠻有興趣的結果剛剛王玉昌委員其實有問部長就是這個如果這個違法的要求大家罷免或不罷免這有沒有構成違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4511.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4534.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
其實這個有耶 這個在選罷法98條有所以選罷法98條可能我先幫部長回覆一下王委員好 那一樣我想說因為我剛剛聽王委員的問題我覺得我有興趣所以我想就接著往下問幾個問題就是那剛剛所提到的如果說我們部長需不需要先看一下98條就我們時間可以先暫停就是選罷法98條時間先暫停 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4541.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4543.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
對先暫停,先讓他們看一下條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4562.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4577.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那我就順著那個王委員的問題就是那如果說我們現在看的98條第一項第二款那如果說今天我們是用一個非法的方式叫大家來罷免或不來罷免你看其實他是符合98條第一項第二款 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4578.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4590.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
就跟部長報告一下所以說如果前面有違反個資去收集到相關的資訊然後再拿違反個資所取得的資訊來做後續的傳播訊息等等的動作其實是有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4595.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4621.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我再跟部長報告一下部長你們應該要稍微了解嘛 而且另外調局你們這個應該也可以列為選舉查查的合分因為你們前面很多動作都 違照文書都列為選舉查查積分在合分的嘛那像這個的話完全就是違反選罷法98條第一項第二款更可以名正言順用那個選罷法的積分來合分副局長你們有要處理這個嗎 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4625.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4645.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
如果我們受理相關的這個告發案件的話我們會收集相關資料然後提報給地檢署好那我在這邊就是我等一下會再談一下個資的這個部分那我這邊也先跟副局長說明一下如果說這段時間的這個個資的利用上面假設是違法的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4646.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4659.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
你們千萬記得我在這邊直接跟你們說嘛那你們就要開始下去調查因為這跟全民有關嘛那我也再跟兩位說明一下最近有很多實務上面查到的炸雞集團他就是利用這些簡訊所獲得的資訊因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4662.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4685.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這些簡訊他雖然是外面的簡訊的代理商來幫忙發送這些訊息但這些代理商他所得到的這個門號他可以從門號去知道你去過哪些地點去過哪些地點嘛 使用的基地台位置這個在中華電信的廣告裡面也寫得很清楚你去過哪一間實體的售車展覽場然後之後他就會丟這個車輛的簡訊給你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4689.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4714.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這個中華電信的廣告都有那我如果這樣的話那我自然我就可以從這些簡訊發送的代理商那邊從每個人的門號去反推回這個人曾經到過哪裡使用過哪幾個基地台這些東西請你們要注意一下很多詐團現在開始在用這些資料那就台灣詐欺很多啊我們現在要幫國人守住這一塊這個你們不能都裝作都視而不見 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4716.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4734.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那我這邊跟幾位說明一下就是這個月初的新聞報告報道就有關這個罷免的連署的這個簡訊嘛那有那個反共護台聯盟的人指出說他們這個簡訊是透過跟代理商這邊下單去購買的這個服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4737.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4758.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那他說呢 這個代理商會跟三大業者合作並以區域 基地台 以及當初申請門號的地點還有作為發送地點好 所以呢 光目前依據那個報導新北市就有五個選區有 雙河 板橋 淡水 新店等等的像台中那邊也都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4759.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4783.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以 以當初發送門號的地點 他也可以針對這個門號 申請人的年齡 學歷 性別等等的這些來取得這些發送的資料那我想請教一下 就是 霸團取得這五個選區的各行動電話的門號然後廣發簡訊 鼓勵罷免的連署 那為什麼霸團可以取得這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4787.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4812.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
好 沒關係 那我幫你們回答好了那就是因為 霸團向這些業者下單嘛 對不對因為業者手上有這些資料 所以他霸團向他下單嘛但是呢 我必須提一個點我們這次我們知道的 我們最近一段時間我們很多科技執法的修法那你要知道 門號跟使用者位置 這個其實是符合通保法三之一條的通訊記錄資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4813.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4830.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
也就是說這些東西很多都是要檢察官申請法官核准才能調閱那如果中華電信今天什麼都不管就全部丟出去給業者那這個也很奇怪而且四字689號也有講得很清楚就是即使我們一般人在公開場合 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4832.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4859.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們的一些行為我們也有不受關注的權利我們在公開場合我們還是有一些個人隱私的主張的權利嘛而不是說中華電信你可以把所有的資料全部都給那些業者他們想怎麼用就怎麼用好 那我想請問一下各支委員會我們最近有民眾反映說他搬到中壢了他人搬到中壢了結果他在中壢有收到訊息啊那你們有沒有發覺這是怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4861.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4879.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
因為目前個資法他還是是一個分管的狀況所以因為我們目前我們個資籌備處是沒有調查的權限所以這個部分可能還是會變成是由各業別的目的事業主管機關他在個案他才有調查的權限那你們就沒有再管這一塊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4880.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4901.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
因為因為應該是說目前我們收到如果有收到民眾因為我目前其實也沒有收到民眾對我們有有任何的這樣我跟你講那個民眾還說那會不會我連我去汽車旅館就資料全部都被你們掌握他們現在擔心的這個點我可以去某一個汽車賣場然後你就知道我去過然後讓業者丟訊息丟汽車的訊息給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4903.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4923.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那我去了哪一間企業旅館他會不會下次你就丟他的折下券給我這是那個民眾的質疑啦另外我上網看了一下這個簡訊的這個收費大概就0.7起跳到1.5所以當然我也會覺得說哇這些霸團真的超有錢的因為我拿到一個數據就內政部的一個公開數據啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4925.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4930.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
而且是112年11月電信信息人口統計光是新聞報導的這幾個區加起來電信使用的人口有156萬3184人那如果說依據我們以最便宜的0.7塊來看好了以0.7塊的這個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4947.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4968.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
如果說他真的都發的話大概要一百零九萬多啦那當然我不知道他到底發了多少了我們也蠻希望說這些罷團最後能夠公開這些經費的使用因為我國目前在這一塊法律上面建構不夠完全我們選舉 我們最後選舉經費要報到中選會去但是罷免卻不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4969.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4988.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那他們錢哪裡來 怎麼用 都沒有人管所以現在好多個罷團 現在都發 內部都發生因為經費使用 有人私下去募款 有人錢不知道怎麼用就內部鬧哄哄 上次那個謝國良那個 他那個罷免案也是啊罷免完之後 到現在他們還在吵 還在吵罷免那個經費的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4990.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5008.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以這塊內政部是有提說要修法啦但在修法之前這次就天下大亂因為錢不知道哪裡來不知道哪裡去這也是我們質疑的一個點啦那甚至有的比較更精確化的訊息是一折要一塊半所以這個費用是非常的驚人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5009.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5026.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那我也不認為說資料可以讓大家這樣濫用一團是對國家的好事就像我剛剛說的現在很多詐欺集團他是利用這些所謂的簡訊代發業者所取得的資料去反推回去大家的習慣我講個很簡單的我的門號 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5029.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5050.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
立法院有 立法院在很多通訊欄上面 路上面也有把我的門號列出來那如果有人想要知道我的生活習慣 而他不是 我不是偵查單位 不是檢查機關他就拿我的門號去跟這些業者去反求門 門號的使用紀錄就好了啊所以我到過哪裡 去過哪些賣場 我的整個脈絡就出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5051.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5078.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
所以這是我質疑的點而且這個點是不分藍綠都要注意的風險國人也要注意的風險因為詐欺集團他要怎麼樣騙到你的錢如果你值得他騙的話如果你夠有錢值得他騙的話他就會花時間去分析你過往的記錄就像我們以前在做情勢案件偵查的時候我會去分析這個被告他的生活習慣譬如說他喜歡看不動產的資料我就會一直丟這種類似這種東西去給他去跟他談 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5080.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5094.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
所以我們會去分析對方的資料之後然後去攻破他去理解他到底在做什麼那我們不能讓這些個人的資料到最後變成犯罪集團使用的工具這是我很在乎的一個點那中華電信我請教一下你們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5095.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5123.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
官網的行動寬頻服務契約書第37條你有寫到非依法或經乙方事先同意不得為收集目的以外之利用所以呢相關的資料記錄啊經過你們處理而且客觀上無法識別懷孕識別個人的可能的時候才能夠提供第三人使用但是在這段時間有非常多的例子大家都開始在那邊擔心說他可以經過很簡單的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5125.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5143.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
反求就可以查出個人的資料就像健保資料庫的隱密性現在也被人家一直挑戰一樣那你們對於資料的個人資料的維護是遠低於健保資料庫那這個情況下我想請問一下中華電信有什麼做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5144.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5157.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
根據人報告我現在順便跟大家說明中華電信在各支的這些收集利用處理一定都是完全按照各支法去處理那在我們公司內部從內部的檢視到內控到內積到外部通過這些ISO的2700 27701 BS10012到我們通過國家標準的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5172.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5185.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
10229100-2的這個氣勢不要檢視喔有重重的這個保護你講這個有答跟沒有答一樣我都依據各執法我經過什麼認證我都沒有問題但我們看到的是結論結論我跟你說明一下結論就是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5186.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5203.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
今天很多人我當初去申請門號的時候甚至我門號是20年前申請的我沒有換過門號那我20年前申請我當時也不可能去勾選這個各自使用的同意書啊那甚至我勾選使用同意書我的範圍也沒有包括到政治活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5204.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5227.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
但是最近這是一個事實就變成有一些政治活動會利用這些發送簡訊或者是詐欺集團使用業者這些外面這個代理業者的資訊這個都已經是事實上的一個事實然後你在那邊跟我說我一切我符合各執法我一切我符合誰誰誰的認證但是我們看的是結論我們要處理的是社會問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5228.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5254.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
也跟委員報告那我為什麼先說明我們在這個部分一切有做這樣嚴謹的處理那另外一個電信公司它本身其實是一個傳輸網路的平台所以就現在爆炸的這個案或剛剛委員提到很多案例其實是來自於發訊端它的行為那我們在有關詐欺這個部分在NCC的指導跟警政機構的合作其實我們也做了很多的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5255.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5281.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那就有講跟沒有講 都是他們的錯 千錯萬錯都是他們的錯但是業者 雖然中華電信是公司 但是業者 企業有社會責任每一個企業都有他的社會責任存在那你有沒有做適當的行政調查 這就是一個很重要的點你放任說 你用我的東西 我也不知道 反正是你犯罪不是我但是你可以做行政上的控管因為現在詐欺已經是全民痛恨的東西了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5282.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5299.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
是不分你什麼政治傾向你什麼有的沒有的大家都不喜歡詐欺但是我一直講你詐欺像你剛剛說就交給警察交給誰其實這不對的所有的正確的反詐的處理是行政先行司法在末端補位 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5299.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5326.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
你一定要從最前端的NCC 金管會等等的他去把詐騙的簡訊控管掉把詐騙的廣告控管掉減少了詐欺的案件發生之後最後才由司法機關去查就現在大家都導致了司法機關衝第一線然後行政機關不管就排山倒海的詐騙廣告我常常收到欸我家人也常常收到欸那就表示控管出了問題啊那如果你認為說這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5328.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5353.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那個簡訊帶送業者的責任那我也不知道說那貴公司的企業的社會責任哪裡去了那個謝謝你的指導事實上我們在那個社會責任有關詐欺我們不管是在簡訊或通訊因為涉及到秘密通訊所以我們這個部分呢也做了很多的那個處理那詐騙的簡訊它有很多的太陽我跟你講啦你自己看我現在這PowerPoint上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5354.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5383.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你們收集了非常多的資料這是你們的廣告喔不是我們列出來的你告訴大家說你可以去哪裡收集到誰去哪裡的資料之後然後以行為分群來丟給這些人像你去有這個人常跑健身房你收集到他常跑健身房資料你就丟給他一些運動愛好的資訊這個是企業資訊上面商務上面使用沒有錯但是我跟你們說這個會導致返求之後會知道你很多資訊知道你去過哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5384.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5390.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
會有這個問題而且這個已經實務上面已經發生那麼多了另外我要跟你們提一下最近簡訊待發業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5392.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5413.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
在最五月份的時候發了一些那個訊息給他們的那些客戶裡面就有提到說要開始去查他們這些業他們來請求發送簡訊的這些人他們的資料等等的他們要求這些人提供那我的問題就是說五月 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5414.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5425.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
他們發了這些資訊然後說到九月底之前都會用勸導不開罰請問這是NCC的意見中央電信還有NZ都可以回答這是NCC嗎的意見到九月嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5426.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5452.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
沒有跟委員報告其實我們真的要求電信業的法徵是並沒有任何的時間限制那我看到九月我想那你們是不是要幹嘛要等到大罷免結束之後再來開始查嗎現階段不用查然後另外一件事情今天發送簡訊已經在台灣已經這麼多年了但是NCC以及中華電信貴公司都沒有去做行政上面的調查這是怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5453.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5470.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我們都有依據個資法第22條還有我們電信管理法第90條有進行個資檢查像這個個案我們就5月5號5月9號都進行兩次刑事檢查如果你講的啦結果現在這些簡訊待發業者在5月12號發了一個到處發了一個這個訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5472.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5487.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
訊息跟大家說之後每一個人委託發送檢訊人他們要提供相關的資料那過往都沒有耶而且他說九月之後才會開法耶所以我不知道我們的行政機關到底在做什麼真正該管的不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5489.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5515.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個造成國內的詐騙這麼嚴重的事情不管然後詐騙廣告不管簡訊發送不管個資會被冒用也不管什麼都不管然後今天一個一個點出來跟委員報告是這樣子說NCC對我們管的三大業者就是我們是有作用法來歸管他那他們跟上游大盤商那邊是用契約來約定但是他們有要求他們要做好KIC這一塊應該是末端的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5516.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5530.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
末端的就待發業者的他的企業那一部分的他們都對他們的一些要求我跟你說啦 NCC是公家機關 也算政府機關是中立的嘛然後中華電信是公司嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5531.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5558.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那我只能跟兩位說啦我自己在實務上面經驗來看你們的管理上面有出很大的問題那如果你說我講錯或說你們經歷但是我們看到的是實務上面就是非常多的詐騙訊息非常多的我剛講的我給你一個門號我不用去做違法的調查我光是從這些業者代發業者所掌握的資訊我就可以回過頭去反求出你們每個人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5559.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5581.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
過去去過哪裡幹了什麼事情我覺得這樣對嗎 這樣從個資上面這樣OK嗎在NCC的職權範圍內我們都有嚴格的把關這一塊那相關的末端的部分應該還有對應相關的主管機關來處理資訊服務業或行銷公司這邊都不在NCC的職權範圍內最後我就說麻煩調查局還有法務部我剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5587.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5611.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
麻煩你們去弄清楚有沒有違反選罷法98條第一項第二款麻煩一下那我在這邊也再次的跟各位說第一個簡訊使用有沒有問題有沒有違反各自法再來你就麻煩全部都用選舉查查去核分叫底下調查官好好的處理還有有沒有違反98條你們自己可以看清清楚楚在那邊只要用違法的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5612.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5628.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
做這些罷免的鼓動或要求大家不罷免這個都有違法請你們能夠就這部分去查查 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那相關單位是不是針對吳委員剛才所提出來的具體的那個內容然後做一個書面的回應 好不好好 謝謝我會等你 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5640.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5649.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰 我要叫調查局嗎副局長副局長有來齁中華電信也有來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5653.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5679.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
中華電信中華電信哇 抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長 我剛針對趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條 第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5681.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5684.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5691.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5695.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說國民黨快滅黨了喔你們就趕出來連署喔來罷免成癮喔你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5717.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5722.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們的這個在工讀法的一個修訂裡面本來選罷法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5734.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5753.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那如果是可以宣傳的話 應該是說這個簡訊 或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理 跟利用 你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法 不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5755.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5766.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人啊福哥你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5783.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5796.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5797.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5824.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5825.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5839.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
包圍那所謂的創製跟覆決那簡單的講就是創製就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎?是是 我也算不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5841.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5865.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第八號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5869.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5890.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你說這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5891.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5918.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5920.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5945.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5946.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5972.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個就可能要請教來複密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個複密署長你的看法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5980.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6006.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那個謝謝委員指教那因為委員這個部分所問的他還是屬於那個大法官他們那個怎麼去認定的核心範圍這個部分我們司法行政比較不方便來回答其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6008.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6029.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號那這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6031.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6059.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6061.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6086.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6088.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6112.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6112.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6139.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6142.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6158.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是 當然是沒有錯啦 但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投 其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6160.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6176.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6179.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6190.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6194.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6219.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是你餵的草莉啦 梨凍啦 一些條卡站在那裡那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公尺你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6220.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6248.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張 你說我給他寫一張要求三十公尺 都不能有人去買這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6249.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6253.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常了這個國家就不正常了你就說要罷免 我就說張署長 我就說你就不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6265.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6269.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸授、講正道,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6287.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6313.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6314.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6332.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就自由行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是自由去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你被罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6338.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6362.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓他可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6364.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6367.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個是我們警政部門應該有的 該做的事情 好不好 謝謝好 現在我們請審發會委員進行詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6388.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6393.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
主席我們先請NCC中華電信我剛才聽這些前面這些委員這些質詢大家就針對這個簡訊發送的問題大概有詢問我們國家通傳會跟這個中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6413.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6438.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那我先大概來釐清一下,因為我有一些部分我想需要釐清第一個就是說,現在我們所收到這些簡訊,不管你是商業廣告也好,或者是這些政治簡訊也好它都是透過這個簡訊代發業者,簡訊代發業者來跟我們各大電信公司來下單的一個商業行為嘛,對不對?現在是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6439.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6459.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
是兩種 個人推個人 像我們一般民眾個人我們所稱P2P person to person那就不會那商業的都business to customer就會經過像現在大家這樣子大量收到的這種這種政治性簡訊或是這些商業廣告簡訊我這樣子看 我現在要釐清的就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6462.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6491.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這個所發送的門號我這樣聽起來好像有兩種方式一種是我簡訊代發業者我提供門號給你說請你幫我發這些是不是這樣子然後另外一種是我說我要哪一個區域因為你們有提供靜態跟動態的這個這個的服務嘛齁那這個簡訊代發服務有一種叫做靜態定位發訊以及即時動態發訊是你們有提供的服務嘛對不對那我簡訊業者提說我我希望鎖定中山大同 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6492.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6508.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
中山區跟大同區的這個發放然後之後由你們透過這個LBS的技術來發放對不對是不是這樣根本報告技術上確實有LBS但是在個案上經過我們行政調查三家都沒有提供的LBS服務所以沒有提供LBS服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6509.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6531.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
結果這個個案也沒有但是像我們地震等等之類的它區域型的它也是另類廣義的區域簡訊服務這種區域簡訊服務我們現在中華電信要不要講一下你們現在有沒有提供這個區域區域簡訊服務有沒有我們在區域簡訊的服務目前大概都是在比如說百貨公司或者是活動的人潮書上因為剛才我們主席吳宗憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6531.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6546.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
主席這邊問的就是這個啊你們現在到底有沒有提供區域簡訊服務區域簡訊服務是有提供有提供嘛LBS有提供所以這個業者所以我簡訊代發業者可以說我現在希望我鎖定松山區的門號請你們幫我發可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6550.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6566.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我先跟委員補充一下那個所謂的下單 事實上我們在三位簡訊的部分就網路有簡訊廣播跟簡訊特碼兩個機制那我們跟簡訊代理商那邊對 但這個就是一個契約嘛這個就是一個契約行為不管你是透過網路還是透過什麼當然不是說坐下來簽個契約才叫契約嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6573.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6580.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
對 然後他前端的這一個客戶委託他去簡單講你們有沒有提供區域有沒有提供區域簡訊服務啦我們有提供區域簡訊服務那你們提供區域簡訊服務之後會不會把這些門號再回報給業者說我傳了這些不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6589.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6616.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
這些我業者我只知道說我今天希望你們傳給松山區但是你們傳給誰我業者不知道對不對區域檢訊服務的部分區域檢訊服務我不會回答到說你們傳了哪一些我就可以知道哪一些門號是松山區的不會嘛對不對也跟委員補充報告要提供LBS服務必須要用戶自己同意同意電信公司提供那各自的提供第三方的目的外使用要用戶自己同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6617.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6634.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以現在即使你們有提供這種區域簡訊的服務但是事實上這個發送要來跟你們希望你們發送的這個人他並不會知道得到這些訊息說哪一些門號是在這個區域裡面他可以得到這個訊息你們會回報給他說我傳了這些門號 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6639.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6658.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
會嗎?我們前進調查的結果是不會,那個報導是他的描述,事實我們調查的結果不是這樣子的不是這樣嗎?所以剛剛講的那些說什麼透過這些發放之後他就可以掌握了你今天有沒有去這個百貨公司,你今天有沒有去哪裡事實上這個發放者沒有辦法掌握,他根本不知道發給誰對不對他只知道發給這個區域的人,是不是這樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6662.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6689.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
各位報的是我們不會交付任何的資料再給業者是這樣就釐清就釐清不要好像就剛剛講的好像哇這些業者這些他發了這些霸團發了之後他就可以知道哪一些人在哪裡活動哪一些人去哪裡事實上他得這個發送者得不到這個訊息而且更何況這個根據這個我們目前的電信管理法第八條的規定你們中華電信是不得拒絕傳送訊息的 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6693.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6718.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
根據第八條我今天只要這個是保障通信秘密無正當理由你們就不得拒絕發送傳遞訊息對不對是的沒錯所以吳宗憲要求你們不能發送這個訊息這樣看起來目前按照這個電信管理法第八條目前是不是屬於無正當理由我們還要再來討論對不對來 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6722.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6745.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
好來 你有講什麼話我等一下會秀給你看會秀給你看 時間給我退回去我沒有講那句話你不要亂講話 你在那邊怎麼亂引用我講的時間給我退回去 可以嗎主席沒問題 那個時間先把它中斷15秒我跟你講 我們彼此互相尊重我知道 我也是很尊重你 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6746.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6774.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們彼此尊重你可以質疑我講,但你不要引用我沒講的話我會引用你我沒有要叫他們不要傳簡訊啦我剛剛哪有講這句話你在我面前講我沒講過的話你剛剛說傳送這些訊息現在進來很多霸團在傳送這些訊息會讓大家掌握這些個資但我沒有講說叫他們不要傳送你不可以在我面前說我沒講的話簡單講這些團體發送者他掌握不到這些個資的個資還是在你們手上 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6776.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6793.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
你們電信業者的手上,並不在這些發送人的手上再來,我們現在齁好,主席,你就不要再跟我吵架了來,好,我等一下會講你講過的來,稍安勿躁,稍安勿躁,來好,那這個齁,我們這個依照這個各自保護法齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6801.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6827.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
有關第十九條之一跟第一項跟第二十條第一項他分別有規定規範有關於非公務機關對於個人資資料的這個收集跟處理十九條第一項是收集跟處理第二十條是有關這些個資的利用都有規定並且有罰則對不對罰則在第四十一條都有罰則對不對那個是沒錯好是喔對那我們剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6829.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6842.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
也有這個簡訊代售業者我提供門號給你請你們傳這個簡訊這些簡訊代售業者他們所收集處理利用的這些個資有沒有違反這兩條 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6844.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6872.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們調查個案 他是接受他的企業客戶的下單來處理所以他他這個規定來到法律明文 即便洋洋灑灑都有八款有八款有九款的規定不管是他自己或者他的企業客戶如果有違反他要負這個法律責任對對對好所以如果啦假設假設有這個這個有這個簡訊代發業者他們違反了這個那你們一定會追究他的責任對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6874.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6885.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
會由相關主管機關來追究他的責任接下來下一頁主席這個就是你講過的主席要不要認證一下時間暫停讓主席認證一下這個是你講過的無中縣接著指出雖然電信業者說這是供企業商務服務使用但是什麼時候變成政治連署使用要不要處罰NCC |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6901.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6915.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這個NCC也不見了他覺得任何事情都雙標民眾各自被拿去使用這是你說的這我講的沒有錯但是我必須在這邊講一個點我們今天對於公家機關的質詢人民對公家機關有意見我們來這邊質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6917.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6939.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
結果有的人是來這裡趕快幫公家機關護航立法委員是質疑他們的點 讓他們來告訴國人哪一些東西對 哪一些東西要被懷疑 哪一些東西大家要注意不是在這裡像你 沒關係啦對 這是我講的 但是我有我的質疑點我盡到我立法委員的義務主席你至少要補一分鐘 至少要補一分鐘你講過的話就好主席你至少要補兩分鐘給 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6943.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6953.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
發會委員我說我有講過的話歡迎批評我沒有講過的話他剛剛在我面前講了我沒講的話那我如果這樣對你我現在問你這個是主席我還讓你再確認一下是不是你講過的話嘛對不對好來下一頁好請繼續下一頁我吼我因為答到今天的題目吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6966.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6994.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我們也拿不到個資 我們也收集不到什麼所以我就把我們的助理全部集合啦齁大家把那個簡訊齁自己收過的政治簡訊 大家回溯一直看看看這個都是我助理 我自己跟我的助理以前在自己現在還在手機裡面收過的這些政治性簡訊啦齁這個給大家看一下 有關罷免的部分就是今天我們主席排這個主題的齁就是2016年這個蔡正元的罷免案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6995.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7008.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
蔡正元所發的轉發通知請共同拒絕2月14日的罷免來再來等一下等一下我先我在說明這個之前我先跟大家報告一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7010.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7032.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有關於宣傳罷免到底是合法還是不合法這個其實非常清楚啦因為在2016年的時候對不起,現在請法務部上來好了這個是法務部選罷法應該是內政部中選會今天有來嗎中選會來中選會,對不起,部長不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7039.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7065.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我們在2016年11月29立法院刪除通過了選罷法第86條第三項本來有規定說除了徵求連署之必要活動之外不得有其他鼓吹罷免或阻止罷免的宣傳活動這一條是不是刪除了現在是可以宣傳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7066.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7091.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
支持或反對罷免案都可以宣傳不管你宣傳罷免鼓勵罷免他過去是用鼓動鼓動罷免或者是這個宣傳阻止罷免的宣傳活動都是合法的嘛對不對都是合法跟選舉活動一樣是合法的對不對從事支持或反對罷免案的宣傳宣傳都跟選舉的宣傳一樣都是合法的對不對法律允許的對好謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7093.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7118.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
所以我現在我來講這個我沒有講說我這個到底是不是合法的這個就是我們我們今天主席排這個案子就是因為他認為這些有疑慮所以我來看看有疑慮的來下一個這個是王浩宇罷免案的時候這個滷蛋快報這個滷蛋滷蛋快報的滷蛋是誰這個這個這個大家看來這個明天1月16號霸王任務懇請大家站出來投票好下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7120.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7148.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
來有關選舉的選舉罷免的這個是中國國民黨台北市黨部發的總統選舉請集中支持3號侯康佩政黨票投9號中國國民黨立法委員打打打張世剛游殊惠打打打來下一個來各位好朋友這蔣萬安發的台北市長蔣萬安親自發的政治性簡訊各位好友侯友宜台北市團結造勢大會定於11月6日4號下午2點半在台北市政府警區歡迎參加來下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7150.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7173.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
來,這是我們本院同仁齁,這個週六上午十點,大安立委候選人總統會議員,歡迎共襄盛舉,這羅志強的來,下一個來,各位好朋友,明天就是投票日,請您一定要來,這也是我們的同仁齁,侯孟凱的來,下一個來,感謝您的支持,讓習近,台北市議會議長齁,帶習近,讓習近能夠連任第五屆議員的這個是不是商業的還是政治性的,來,下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7174.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7202.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
告急這個新北市議員選情告急,明天投票懇請相親來,下一個來,這個台北市議員向您告急這個是政治性選情還是商業簡訊,下一個齊獨市市議員問政品質服務,懇請支持我念不完啦,我念不完各位啊這個是什麼,這個不是雙標什麼是雙標現在合法的,我剛剛講 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7204.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7224.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這個選罷法已經修改了現在宣傳罷免鼓吹罷免是合法的那發這個合法的簡訊跟這個政治的簡訊過去發了這麼多都沒有都沒問題今天不過說一個合法的宣傳罷免就拿來這裡辦專案會議然後來引設含沙射影說好像這個罷免這個是違法的為什麼不辦為什麼不辦要辦剛剛我說所列出來全部一起辦好不好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7237.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7256.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
好我們先宣告締約委員提出臨時提案那我們依照本會往例在執行本會委員範圍告一段落後依據上午11點處理那如果到時候有委員正在詢答該位委員詢答完畢之後就進行處理臨時提案好 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7257.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7283.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那個 曾委員 我們委員彼此尊重啦我只是對你剛剛說我沒有講過的話 我有意見這一句那其他我都沒有意見對於社會事實 認定合法不合法 過往怎麼樣我都沒意見謝謝主席的指教 謝謝你只要不要講我 我沒講過話 硬說我有講我只對這個 其他我都非常尊重你我時間有倒退回去啦 謝謝那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7289.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7292.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長好 麻煩鄭部長中選會好 中選會委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7301.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7325.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
早安大家辛苦了今天我們專案報告的主題是民眾反映收到罷免聯署簡訊顯非商業廣告目的之運用質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益我尊重召委的排案權但是呢我更認為如果今天要列這個主題你至少要並另外一個主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7327.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7350.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
譬如說也是社會各界更重視的主題也是影響的範圍更大的也就是我建議今天的專案報告應當題目是就民眾反映國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統個資進行偽造罷免連署嚴重侵害人民權益專案報告我認為專案報告應當是我現在說的這個題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7356.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7377.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
因為司法調查證據已經非常明確國民黨不管是在基隆或者是在花蓮都發生了公務體系地方政府濫用政府的系統的資訊來進行惡霸或者是向人民查水表 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7378.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7406.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我進入我的PPT之前 我也要說我現在看到的臨時提案喔是徐欣穎委員這邊 翁曉琳委員這邊 招委也有連署也就是呢 為了守護人民的隱私權 確保選罷法制度選罷制度之正當性與民主機制之信任基礎要求NCC法務部中選會及個人資料保護委員會籌備處要立即來成立專案調查小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7407.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7414.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
就罷免簡訊的名單來源傳送機制涉及各自處理流程等進行全面調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7415.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7440.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
如果這個臨時提案要通過的話那應當針對剛剛審發會委員列出一托拉庫國民黨的委員在選舉的期間不管是縣市首長或是地方選立委或是議員的也都利用簡訊系統去敗票 去催票如果國民黨的委員要提這個臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7442.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7456.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
就公平嘛剛剛這一拖拉扣的如果針對罷免的簡訊名單來源傳送機制就要被查的話那剛剛那些查不查部長你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7459.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7481.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個有沒有成立那個只要有人告發那我們就會依法來處理那是不是說收到簡訊是不是成立犯罪像這個剛剛有提到就個資的問題那這個個人資料依據那個個資保護法第二條說用此他個人資料是自然人而且包括什麼醫療等連絡方式得以 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7482.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7502.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
直接間接識別該個人資料如果說只是單純電話碼他沒辦法識別這王某某所有或詹某所有亂槍打擾式的發簡訊那是不是成為各自的一個我們是還是有再嚴厲的沒有錯嘛他不是指名道姓傳給吳思瑤你怎樣你怎樣他可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7503.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7518.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
像剛剛收集到很多名單就傳出去直接說王某某你好所以這可能就比較接近我們各自的問題我進入我的主題憲法保障人民的基本權利憲法22條規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7520.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7541.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
而大法官釋字第603號又再一次確認了個資以及隱私權就是憲法22條所保障的當然我們也因應111年宪判第13號對於個人資料保護的獨立監督機制國家的政策需要更強大的配套下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7542.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7559.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以說呢執政團隊負責任執政團隊撥破房因應大法官給出來的三年期限我們要修法所以個人資料保護法經濟委員會這週四就要逐條審查我們在法制面要健全它要補強它 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7560.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7577.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
而大法官要求的個人資料保護委員會要有一個專責的監督單位所以我們會用一個組織法的方式未來中瑞雄委員在私委會應當也會排案所以一個立法委員要做的是這麼在乎個人資料保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7578.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7590.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那麼趕快從法治健全的修法跟立法來著手現在的執政黨的版本要修各自法建立各自事故通報與應變義務機制設置個人資料保護長明定角色的獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7596.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7625.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
非公務機關收集個資需要定期取得授權建立公務機關與非公務機關之間的監督與集合制度還有最後一項要規劃監管權限的整合與過渡期的機制我們要從法制面去完整它如果今天教委所排的這個題目對於這個簡訊的發送到底是商業非商業怎麼收集而來我認為未來的個人資料保護法在修法的過程我們可以更進一步的健全它 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7626.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7640.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
更進一步的去討論它譬如說非公務機關收集個資要定期取得授權的這個部分就有很多可以討論的嘛部長你同意我的主張吧這個法制的完備我想更能夠保護那個個人的個人資料下一頁如果要說誰濫用個資國民黨實在是第一名啦叫國民黨第一名啦針對霸團的 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7655.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7675.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
負責人這個鬧得沸沸揚揚這個阿美啊她不只被公佈了本名她的行業她的公司都被國民黨黨中央用記者會的方式用黨機器來肉搜公民請問這有沒有違反個人資料的保護啊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7678.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7706.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
這部分如果又有告發告訴那這邊我們檢討會但是不是就構成了這個事實這個還是要有好個人來告發再來認定但是這就非常清楚的是未經他人同意把他的真實姓名行業對外公告我認為這就明確的違法了下一頁國民黨做賊喊抓賊洩露個資最佳一級的是濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7707.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7733.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
市府的資源行政不中立所以基隆的案件呢這個民政處長呢40萬交保他自己也辭職了因為動用了公家資源調出了戶政系統的個人資料去幫忙作為造假連署這個法院已經認證了是誰違法呢是郭明棟在基隆 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7737.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7755.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
有沒有往上延燒因為這個民政處長呢他隱匿共犯隱匿完整犯罪情節很可能有串供之語很可能向上延燒會不會燒到基隆市的大家長或是國民黨的任何人不知道證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡我支持檢調查辦下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7757.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7776.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
而花蓮一樣 這個民政處長也辭職了他也遭地檢署來起訴因為濫用花蓮縣府的戶政系統去對罷團有連署的公民來查水表 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7778.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7798.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這個也違反個資所以司法認證是誰在盜用人民的個資叫罪中國國民黨 下一頁而我也非常的難以相信就是國民黨的立法委員 葉委員他居然可以在節目上說呢說這個明良珍啊 就是花蓮縣府的這個民政處長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7805.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7821.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
葉元之說就他看來從頭到尾這個明良真沒有洩露什麼個資啊因為這個個資本來就在他手上就在花蓮縣政府就在民政系統的手上啊這個個資本來就是他所有的啊所以呢花蓮縣府拿這個個資 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7823.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7837.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
去做不該做的事是要批判但是葉元之認為從頭到尾花蓮縣府沒有洩漏個資因為這個個資本來就在花蓮縣政府的手上也就是把公民的個人資料當作他的私有產物 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7839.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7856.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
當作他的私有權可以動用可以濫用道用有理 挪用無罪這就是中國國民黨的委員到底是法盲還是文盲啊法律看不懂還是法律認知大有問題啊今天還有一個最新的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7857.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7881.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
花蓮又爆發了某一位 他沒有居住在花蓮他是數年前到花蓮遊玩 有去租車公司 租了一台車結果呢 他最近收到了 在調查郭台銘總統連署案他居然他的個資被拿去 他沒有要連署支持郭台銘參選總統 可是他被拿去用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7882.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7903.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這就是現在發生的在國民黨及國民黨相關系統不管是總統副總統的選舉連署或者是惡霸亂霸的連署盜用濫用人民的個資第一名的叫做中國國民黨所以今天周偉的排案我認為非常的選擇性啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7905.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7927.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
應當專案報告成為我剛剛的題目才對啊應當好好來研析一下啊國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統各自進行偽造罷免連署嚴重傷害人民權益這不就才應當是今天召委排案的主題嗎如果你要討論這個簡訊傳送也可以啊至少要併案啊怎麼這麼選擇性這麼不公正呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7932.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7957.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
違法的事證這麼明確的不敢問不敢探究護航自己人我說一次再說一次針對所謂的簡訊的使用請在野黨的委員好好在個人資料保護法裡面的法治健全的討論我們好好來研習法律在未來的要成立專責機關我們好好就法治面去探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7959.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7968.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
而不是來做這種個案的操作做這種政治的操作我認為這非常有違立法委員的專業性公平性 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7969.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7998.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
今天不好意思後面題目時間到了沒有辦法讓大家回答我們繼續努力我再一次說任何的個案尊重司法偵辦勿妄勿縱司法案件的核心是證據而不是政治司法核心是在證據而不是政治請所有的從政者都應當有這樣基本的法制態度正確的解讀好辛苦大家謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8001.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8028.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
好謝謝那我們下一位我們先做一程程序報告稍後在張綺凱委員詢問完畢後休息五分鐘那我們接著請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那我想先請NCC謝謝麻煩NCC |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8033.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8059.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好 謝謝NCC我想今天的這個題目我覺得要先幫人民定義一件事情因為這個相關的資料我們可以看到在相關的新聞中電信三雄犧牲否認洩露個資據我看相關的新聞報導事實上相關的應用其實在3G的年代三大業縣是不是就接受NCC的監督認為相關的業務是不得已在電信公司裡面進行的我想要請您先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8060.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8075.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
是的 因為電信業者本來就是NCE所下管的業者那我們都在各自法的法尊上我們也有依據各自法27條定有安慰辦法來請他們來落實這些各自維護相關事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8076.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8092.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
好 所以截至目前為止這還是你們的轄管業務內容 對嗎所以如果他們真的有做出疑似洩露個資的行為其實NCC你們會第一時間去進行調查包含主席今天排的這個案子其實當時你們已經進行調查我們看到相關業務報告 對嗎對 已經進行調查5月3號批落出來5月5號 5月9號都有兩次來找他們來做行政調查那預計什麼時候會公佈相關調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8101.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8126.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
電話已經調查告一段落我們也把相關的資料函送給相關機關做是否有違反各自的一些請他們處處簡單來講就是說這個簡訊的發送的流程裡頭最源頭端的簡訊代發業者的企客然後簡訊代發業者然後再來三大電信公司然後再達一般用戶那NCG能夠管的範圍是針對三就是三大電信這一塊我們做行政調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8127.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8141.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那另外代發業者跟代發業者企客那是有相關主管機關來處理因為他一個是資訊服務業者另外一個是行銷公司那個不在NCC的作用法能夠守管家範圍內好 謝謝您說得非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8142.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8170.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
三大電信歸NCC管理人們已經做了相關調查可是所謂代發業者或是簡訊代理公司或是說廣告行銷商他們的相關業務就不歸你們管轄所以我們可不可以定義這一次也就是主席特地排案這個事件它比較接近哪一個樣態比較接近是廣告代理商的議題還是是在三大電信這邊請您再次的說明就我們完整今天調查的結果它的問題應該是出現在最上有端或者最上有端 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8171.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8189.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
簡訊代發業的企業用戶那邊他們為什麼會有這些個資資料是那一塊的部分好 那這一塊其實就是國人最擔心的疑慮也就是說我們可能在非常多地方消費我們都會留下所謂會員資料或者是像我自己的小孩他可能他的學校資料就曾經被一些補習班拿去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8190.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8214.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
其實過往到底在民間的這些所謂商業服務公司如何使用我們每一個人的個資其實樣態是不清楚的可是確實如果收到相關的簡訊是會讓人擔心的那剛剛王逸川委員其實也有提醒到這一塊我們往下看下一張我可不可以請NCC跟我們說明到底我們身為一般消費者我就是一個不管是哪一個電信公司的門號使用者消費者我有沒有拒絕像這樣簡訊的權利有 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8217.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8247.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
一般民眾他如果要做電信公司提供LBS服務他必須要電信公司要問他說你同不同意我提供你LBS服務他同意的話他才會提供這個服務好那我們有沒有在過往的相關業務當中提醒民眾我們在申辦電信門號或者是當我電信門號已經使用超過一段時間我認為這個LBS的訊息確實讓我感到困擾的時候我可以做後續的主張就是如同您剛說的有這個而且他能隨時跟up in跟up out就是說隨時可以去申請跟電信公司申請的 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8247.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8274.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
好 如果真的像您所說的我認為加強宣導應該很重要但是至於另外一個部分就是廣告代理公司的部分或者是其他廣告代理商的部分那個是另外一個議題我覺得比較困擾但是我還是要提醒NCC我們到底可不可以舉一些例子來幫我們說明就一般民眾的角度來說什麼樣的簡訊有可能是三大電信那邊發出來的而什麼樣的簡訊比較像是廣告代理公司發出來的您可不可以幫我們做 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8275.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8296.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
科普性的說明讓一般消費者知道我今天如果收到一個簡訊不管它是政治類的非政治類的我要怎麼判斷它是來自三大電信公司的議題或者是來自所謂廣告代理公司的問題是從技術面來看民眾所有的簡訊都是電信公司發的但是它只是都是透明化的一個傳送就是跟電信管理法第八條一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8297.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8311.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
是那源頭端對發送的人通常都不會是三大電信公司除非是三大電信公司自己的促銷方案對例如說哪一家公司有什麼促銷方案這個可能是三大電信公司用所謂內部客戶的資料去發這個簡訊但是你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8313.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8341.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以如同您的意思是說大部分的廣告簡訊或者是我們今天要談的這所謂政治類的簡訊極有可能比較多大部分應該是所謂廣告代理公司啊行銷公司啊公安公司他們不知道什麼情況下拿到了我們每一個人的個資然後透過他們的透過三大電信的這個發送的管道發送出去比較像是這樣對大部分情況是這樣好但因為這又不是你們夜館的嘛對不對對那源頭段他資料收集是他要自己要負責任他有違反應該是相關主管機關來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8342.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8363.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好但是如果是這樣我覺得回到所謂如果有三大電信這一端所出去的我覺得就是要再次拜託NCC可以再加強宣導對於一般使用者來說我確實是可以直接去要求這些電信公司不可以用我的資料然後或者是說我不想收到所謂LBS簡訊這個是我們可以再次加強宣導跟推廣的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8364.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8386.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
會的 我們去年也有修改他們定型文化服務契約37條有規定說各自宣告事項一定要告訴說各種太陽然後他商業簡訊的服務他民眾也可以隨時選擇退出的一個權利好 這個部分我們希望看到你們更清楚的廣告文宣我不過很確定一下你們那個廣告文宣費有沒有被刪 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8390.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8412.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我們這一塊的費用有些是在基金那邊目前還可以那我們希望看到更多你們對於一般民眾加強推廣然後我覺得也可以減少大家收到相關簡訊的疑慮好不好我認為增加很多社會溝通除了政治議題上增加很多社會溝通絕對是必要的好嗎好 謝謝那接下來我要回到兒少議題我要拜託警政署 謝謝那NCT這邊請回 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8418.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8438.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
好 我們關心政治議題 關心政治困境我們也要關心家長所擔心的在整個週末 所有的社群 家長社群都炸鍋了就是在台北 新北 高雄 好像連桃園也有有所謂中國直播主在國小外面拍攝所引起的爭議跟擔心我不知道警政署這邊有沒有講過相關進度跟資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8440.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8456.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
有掌握 可不可以說明一下目前我們掌握到就是高雄有一件就是對於這個直播組的一個相關拍攝行為那經過查證這一件事沒有牽涉到拍攝到血統的這種狀況所以這件事沒有成案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8457.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8481.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那第二案就是在台北市所以等一下你們成案的標準叫做有沒有拍攝到小孩的臉這樣嗎對對對所以他整個直播的片段你們全部都看完一個小孩的臉都沒有拍到這個案就是他沒有對於這樣的一個行為正過調查之後沒有涉嫌違法拜託警政署我們講白話文給一般民眾聽啦就是這一件我剛剛家長在意的是小孩的臉有沒有被拍到然後被不當的應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8483.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8505.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
這一件事沒有做被不當的運用那第二件事有第二件事發生在台北市的這一間的一個民生國小門口嗎對 是民生國小這一間是有拍攝到這些血統的這些相關的這個樣態那這個樣態裡面是有違反有違反這個兒童及少年這個權利保護法兒少權法兒少法 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8505.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8534.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
也有違反這個個資保護法也有違反這些刑法的妨礙秘密所以這個案子我們這個案子我們依這個三個法例來做移送來移送法判好所以你們這邊已經有在進行了有進行了移送法判好太好了那高雄呢這一件這一件經過調查的結果是沒有高雄新北那新北呢目前新北我沒有還沒有接到這個訊息還沒有接到訊息可是網路上那個警政署你看一下連我在網路上都找得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8535.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8551.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
那是去年11月的這個事情這個部分應該這個案也是沒有違法的事證也是沒有違法這個是你們後續很快的幫忙做出讓家長安心的動作非常謝謝你們的回應我再次跟您強調你們會以違反兒少權法違反個資法違反妨害秘密是做相關的處理對嗎好那我們後續如何防備這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8559.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8581.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那對於這個部分因為學校的這個地方也是我們這個警察這個一個安全委員會的這個地點我們會加長這些巡邏的這個密度那會加長這樣的一個跟學校的一個聯繫聯繫看有沒有這樣的一個這個情形所以他是地方派出所的派出所基層同仁要負責在門口巡嗎每天上學時間嗎應該都是會有應該會是會有會有這個編排的情路 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8585.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8606.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
我要幫基層同仁就是上學跟下學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8611.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8633.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
或者是路人或者是老師發現在孩子們上學跟放學的時候有奇怪的人在門口做出奇怪的直播我們其實可以打電話到派出所或報警請求相關協助進行現場的蒐證跟處理我可以這樣公開呼籲嗎可以明天好那就請您幫我們重述一遍讓我們的家長因為家長社群在週末真的是炸鍋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8633.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8662.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
好如果說有這一些這個非法收集這些拍攝的這些的這個行為絕等的這些行為請立即打電話到110或小區的拍手來報案我們會到場來做處理好那其實大家也會擔心國安的議題但因為時間有限我今天國安就沒有辦法再多說但是至少警政署在這一塊非常做出非常明快的處理我們也謝謝警政署在這邊然後也謝謝基層同仁非常非常辛苦好謝謝那接下來有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8664.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8665.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
各自處謝謝那這邊請回請再處請回謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8675.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8700.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好 您好 各自處這邊 我們跟你討論一下其實我們之前就因為單項教練證的問題跟你們開過會 也跟法務部開過會但是因為它牽扯到各自的問題所以我今天比較多時間想要跟您討論相關法律見解目前因為運動部在九月即將掛牌而未來台灣會有一個所謂全民運動署也就是更多校園的運動它可能會延伸到社區裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8701.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8724.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
非常多孩子们练习运动的场域也会从校园的体育队体育班到社区里面的社区俱乐部所以我们可以想见未来会有更多的教练进到社区里面为孩子提供服务跟教学但同时我们也担心可能很多非法的样态就会从学校扩散到社区里面我们提早做出预防因为确实过去有非常多的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8724.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8742.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
在相關的討論當中我們跟你們討論就是來看下一張體育署在相關的查詢網站當中如果我今天想要去查陳培瑜這個足球教練他過往有沒有對小孩做出不法的事情不管是性侵體罰不當對待之類等等的犯罪行為體育署的網站是說這個樣態他其實是查不到的他說要請家長回到單項協會如果我去單項協會的網站上看例如說陳培瑜是曾經是足球教練 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8751.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8774.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
如果陳培宇有了犯罪行為陳培宇的名字就會從足球單項協會的教練證名字被下架我們認為這樣是消極的我們辦公室主張一直以來我們也跟非常多兒權團體主張教練如果他犯了相關尤其是對小孩不當對待這些罪法而且終局判決已經決定了他應該名字要被留在 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8776.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8801.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
單項協會或者是體育署的網站上讓家長知道這個人他不是只有被下架他曾經做過對孩子們傷害的行為當時體育署的說法說這有個資的問題所以我們就跟個資處這邊開了會你們的法律見解告訴我們在個資保護法16條第二款裡面增進公共利益的部分我們就可以主張使用這樣的資料所以我們看到今年高雄市政府非常有 guts |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8802.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8826.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
他們收到了體育署的公文在2024年7月16號他們就公告了非常多對孩子有不當對待人的名字而且是哪一項教練然後他的全名全文公告出來我認為這個是非常積極的對社區運動對於家長對於孩子的保護但是未來我不知道我們可不可以繼續主張我們認為像高雄市政府這樣做才是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8827.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8853.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
還是要回到我的投影片的左手邊體育署認為基於保護這些教練的個資他們的這個樣態不可以被公告我想要聽聽看你們的法律見解委員就是我們先前幾次委員多次開這個協調會我們表達的意見就是說因為他是一個政府資訊那因為依照我們目前的這個司法實務見解就是說政府資訊裡面他雖然含有個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8853.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8873.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那因為它是一個政府資訊公開法有一個明文規定所以會依照就是個資法16條第一款它是屬於法律明文規定的情況那所以它所有的這個包含它的公開提供或是它的限制都會回到政府資訊公開法相關的規定那因為政資法的18條的第一項第六款 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8874.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8901.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
他其實針對說如果有政府資訊的公開或提供有侵害個人隱私的話應限制公開或不予提供但是對公益有必要的話他還是可以去對外提供那至於對公益有必要跟這個個人隱私之間他到底這個公益跟私益的權衡這是要由這個政府資訊的保有機關也就是教育部體育署這邊他可以去做個案的權衡就是他去權衡這個公益跟私益那還是有這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8902.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8929.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
機制可以去做一個公開好所以聽起來其實他並不是只能指向某一端去解釋這件事情看起來他必須從個案來看去做權衡那聽起來我覺得體育署也好或者是各自處這邊有不同的法律見解不過我想我今天之所以公開質詢是希望我們辦公室後續在這一題我們會積極推進到時候也要拜託各自處這邊持續提供給我們法律見解跟意見然後讓我們再跟體育署溝通或者是到時候可能也會有法務部的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8930.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8945.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
協助我們在保護兒少這一塊我們可以做得更積極如同高雄市政府所做出那個公文這樣好嗎是好謝謝主席謝謝各支處謝謝主席跟我想找朋友的話好謝謝中華電信有來對不對好拜託一下好這個是公益的事情謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8947.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8973.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
主席我問的都很公益謝謝主席感謝中華電信在去年前任董事長有喊出要經費加碼四成我想只是要跟您確定一下今年換了董總之後對女藍的支持還是會繼續嗎是因為我現在服務金門跟馬祖其實過往我們有所謂的城鄉回饋到社區裡面去我們希望後續有更多機會WSB打完之後後續有公益列車規劃可以到更多偏鄉服務更多的孩子好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8974.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8995.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
我們一起來努力促成謝謝中華電影謝謝主席謝謝陳委員我們先做宣告先前預告11點處理的臨時提案後來提案能撤回提案做以上說明那我這邊要補充一下因為剛剛有委員說我們今天的議程怎麼沒有加入那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8998.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9012.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
就是某些縣市然後有使用各自的問題我想因為我們今天的議程還是限縮在在這個簡訊的發送如果說對於那一塊有的話那當然就是看莊瑞雄委員或這邊將來有沒有要 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9013.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9034.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
要再排這個專案報告或是公聽會等等的那個我們當然是之後但是因為他沒有在今天本日的議程內所以跟大家先說明一下剛剛有委員的詢問第二個就是有關今天的這個議題其實是這樣就跟各位行政機關以及中華電信的那個同仁報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9035.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9053.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我覺得就是因為社會上面對一些事情民眾會有質疑嘛那我們的工作就是把質疑帶到這裡來跟大家詢問那當然如果可以經過政府部門或者是三大業者的說明之後我們可以得到滿意的答案或人民可以適宜的話其實這就是我們今天舉辦這一場的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9055.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9082.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
的目的所在嘛 並不是說今天一定要追究誰的責任或怎麼樣 但我們要釐清那我也很認同剛剛吳思耀委員說 他說其實到底是公益那個商業使用或是政治使用他這個將來也是可以去釐清 然後釐清之後我們可以做規定上面的修正或是法律上面的修正因為當初的訂定比較沒有那麼明確所以當民眾他在中華電信的那定型化契約上面 他簽名的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9083.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9100.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
以為是商務使用他授權給你商務使用但是我怎麼收到一些政治的訊息有一些人就會不滿那這一塊是不是我們就可以當作將來修法或修改契約時候的一個依據所以這就是我們今天的目的而不是說在這裡互相政治攻擊或說 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9101.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9118.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
國民黨以前也幹過民進黨以前也幹過我覺得這反而不是今天會議的主軸啦我在這邊跟各位報告一下因為我們都希望國家更好希望人民更不要擔心各自被使用所以我們今天大家來集思廣益然後去做將來的一些修正如果說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9120.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9139.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這被認定是政治使用已經超過當初中華電信的定型化企業的範圍的話那定型化企業是不是就可以把它寫得更明確一點或是可以排除掉什麼那我知道NC是管三大業者那三大業者又有社會企業的社會責任去管那些簡訊待發的公司嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9139.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9152.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
那我們只是希望利用今天的時間把大家聚集在一起然後把一些問題點出來然後大家一起討論就這樣我想說立法院應該是這樣來而不是罵來罵去或政治攻擊這樣好謝謝各位好那我們下一位請張琦凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9180.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9189.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
請司法院的王副秘書長還有法務部的鄭部長麻煩鄭部長今天叫他局長請假請吳副局長副局長對啊 民進黨的吳思堯 我也強調說辦案啊不能夠選擇性辦案一定要公正跟公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9207.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9235.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那我的了解中選會這次罷免這個連署罷免民進黨的移送了16個案子罷免國民黨的移送了15個案子16比15結果從數量上來看國民黨大概辦了每個案都辦了而且大搜索又大收押民進黨現在只辦了兩個案子馬上就請回了不定 我先請到不定從質跟量 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9236.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9246.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
辦國民黨是這樣辦的大收手大收押然後民進黨是這樣辦這個符合剛剛吳思瑤說的沒有譴責性辦案是公正公平的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9247.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9276.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我想檢查在我相信檢查在判案就是依照證據證據來認定犯罪事實那我也尊重檢查對個案的一個偵查規劃我們不能夠用就是辦哪個黨派幾件或哪個黨派幾件來去衡量就是說這個司法判案是有雙標所以我們還回到個案的犯罪情節跟整個證據不一樣所以這個委員是講說這部分我是不同意啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9277.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9298.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你最少嘛 就是中選會送過去了罷免國民黨那幾個案子啊 十五個案子啊光是那個進度啊 你就沒辦法跟人民交代啦你國民黨雷厉風情 幾乎每天一個案子一個人在辦民進黨你十五個案子丟在那裡我委員跟人不清楚喔 這個案件是要看證據的啦不是說看人家給他辦幾個啦那中選會嚴重失職喔 中選會沒有證據他為什麼要移送十五個案子過去那裡你是要打臉中選會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9305.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9314.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個我沒有答 這個中選會就是你是在搭理中選會嗎因為中選不是辦案單位嘛所以不會辦案機關所以他給辦案機關來一個告發那有辦案機關 只有個案來證據的蒐集然後做一個認定 偵查規約來做一個辦案所以這個並沒有矛盾啊有沒有選擇性辦案 有沒有辦男不辦女人民眼睛是雪亮的 我剛剛講得過清楚了那你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9331.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9344.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
明天就是賴總統就職一週年了也是你當法務部長一年了老講不光彩賴總統的滿意度今天聯合報最新的剛剛公佈的不滿意度高達53%這個是我們從1997年明顯總統以來從李登輝開始五年來總統民調最低的前幾天TPPS的民調也很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9362.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9390.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
不滿意的不滿意度啊比聯合報做得還高55%耶今天我特別要問的大家知道嗎TBS做的民調啊人民最不滿的就是司法改革崩盤法定你先休息一下我先請教司法院的司法院長久也是受到尊敬的啊可是最近這一兩年沒有發現整個那個每次那個民調裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9393.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9403.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
司法體系從司法減掉受到人民很多的質疑富民你看看不滿意度高達58%滿意的人才30會不會覺得很不民主臉上無光你們有沒有做一些檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9416.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9426.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
你之前檢討的是中文字嘛對不對那個案對中方那個案子嘛對不對其實最近案子真的還不少我現在TBS公佈完已經兩三天了嘛你司法院內部應該沒有再檢討嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9430.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9444.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
報告委員其實我們司法同仁大部分司法同仁都非常認真敬業這幾年負擔非常大因為案件成長非常多我們的同仁也必須要鼓勵士氣我想這個民調 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9447.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9470.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
因為這個原因沒有分析嘛就是說他很有可能是因為近期己見就是那個被判有罪那個被告潛逃啊這個部分因為民眾會有那個近期印象那我想這部分我們司法院確實就如之前所說的我們確實是應該要那個深自檢討對我們希望深自檢討然後找出一些答案做一些改革好不好你先來我請我請這部長是複密說他們司法院有深自在檢討發不播有做了一些檢討嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9477.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9493.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們希望我們都相信檢查債辦案都是依法公正安全按照證據來認定犯罪事實那回應民眾的一個期待那我想這個整個一個民調都是任何的民調我們都是會做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9494.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9500.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我們現在嚴重的就是最近社會不是像今天在看TV的事情最近社會有很多的民調大家對檢調都搖頭啦你看政治 我們是民主社會啊你看民進黨去辦那個下鄉叫什麼 人民是頭家 人民當家頭家已經死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9513.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9526.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
不是跟TBS 你看TBS不滿意五成八滿意的才三十因為我不曉得我們那個委員是哪個案件我們不應該辦啦因為我也不曉得啦那我覺得我們現在就是用這個方法去辦啦跟他一個罷免的連署大家就害怕了你又不知道要對一個案來來來 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9532.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9548.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你說案子可多你要問我哪一個案子你光是柯文哲最近那個我們不要再談個案你不談個案你問我哪一個案子對啊案子可多咧剛剛負面都還知道說有中文字這個案子人家也知道某些重大案子要去反省對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9549.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9560.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你這個連署 讓人家覺得說你是辦案不案例那完全沒有公正公平 選擇性辦案你自己都不檢討 完全不是個案個案的話就是按照證據來辦案我們講辦案本來就是完全回復到證據來做一個認定我們現在是民主社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9567.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9584.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
你的每一分的 你的領的錢都是民脂民膏第二個我剛才說的 民進黨去辦活動 他們也是說人民是頭家啊那你從每次的民調 頭家都跟你說了喔不滿意度已經那麼高了 而且老實講欸 你是賴清德十一項重大的施政裡面最慘的欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9589.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9598.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
十一項裡面最慘的耶前幾天不是也有一個民調嗎每一條電子的報案都說五成八的民眾認為政治利益介入的減掉介入的司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9599.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9623.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
我來講不是一個民調你自己去判這個我不同意啦這個什麼正式介入司法我不同意我也希望就是說部分任何的黨派對司法都要給司法一個辦案的純淨空間我也不希望說在哪個地方去對司法做一個施壓用群眾的力量去做一個施壓那我想各界的聲音我們都會仔細去聽你是法母堡的大家長啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9624.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9644.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
你有責任讓法務體系的檢調每個人走出去都是有方的啦現在就是討人厭嘛結果你還一直在這邊強辯你的責任是什麼第一個你是頭是到家長啊對不對老實講總統為什麼任命你當法務部長我相信不得當打手或者讓人民不信任你對不對檢察官一個純淨的一個檢調純淨的辦案空間純淨的辦案空間齁這個請委員能夠支持部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9652.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9674.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
你接這個華部長職要做什麼事情?第一個你一定要有好的歷史定位嘛對不對?你就是過一陣子,可能後來要做三年四年,可以做八年很好你留下來這段時間的58%的不滿意那你要去改啊而且你是大家長啊你要讓你下面的人可以服氣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9676.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9686.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好來 我們來談某些案子最近啊 為什麼人民那麼不滿剛才說過 十萬年低調中文字這個案子最近一個案子 小平有空嗎這個案子引起人民多大的質疑跟不滿之前南檢在辦的時候 起訴的時候大家講說 哎 終於有動了 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9701.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9710.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
就台北地驗他竟然說沒辦法證明陳董就是陳仲諺雖然那個袋裡面都清清楚楚就有陳仲諺那個圖像啊現在剛司法為什麼會變那麼多質疑剛吳思瑤說一定要公正嘛不要選擇性辦案嘛你這段時間你看你最近這幾年來民進黨的不只陳仲諺 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9728.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9756.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
要嘛跑掉了對不對棄保險要嘛跑掉了要嘛就輕判更嚴重很多都是無罪你們還負責監聽你看你們監聽的那個譯文裡面多清楚多少證據也都沒問題所以人民為什麼會58%就現在看來好像是這車子一碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛國民黨就送飯嘛那個落差太大嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9758.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9782.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
柯文哲不是這樣嗎柯文哲的案子你看最近這幾天你傳朱瑤虎來法官是獨立審判是不會做任我們不應該要給法官做任何的一些的一個干涉你剛問我哪個案子就是因為最近的太多案子人民都有很多意見你柯文哲你看你的北檢找了朱瑤虎去當證人要咬個柯文哲結果弄到連 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9784.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9799.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
他自己講說柯文哲跟沈千青碰面裡面談到清華城結果他正常是要推測的他整天在外面他就跑去看朋友結果他可以這樣推測然後第二個210他也沒有任何證據結果你們北檢可以把他當成一個重要的證據起訴柯文哲 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9800.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9818.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
柯文哲跟沈憲爺講裡面都有不正訊問這個是在法院審理的時候到底這個政經能力有沒有夠正名的話我想法官會獨立審判所以你看那麼多案子都有問題的時候我們要給法官一個獨立的一個辦案的一個空間我們尊重我們也都非常尊重法院的判決至於證據夠不夠那個是在法庭公訪的問題上是一個舉證的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9820.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9834.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那我想這個既然在法院審理中我們要給法院一個獨立純淨的辦公空間所以這部分我們都不會去批評法院是什麼審判不獨立或者是不公正的一個問題那我們完全從證據來做一個認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9836.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9851.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
用證據的公法一切用法定程序用法律的一些的規範來做一個證據跟審判那我想這個我必須要尊重司法當有人民25萬人上街頭已經吶喊在怒火了當所有民調都能呈現 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9853.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9870.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
司法改革是崩盤的大家對於黨檢沒議題有那麼多的質疑人民也透過民調跟你講了我們期待看到從代總統到司法院到檢調有一些檢討我相信是不是在強辯你有沒有解決問題還是越講人民越生氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9873.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9891.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
再過個幾天新的民調又出來就會打臉你了我覺得我們就看人民會用各式各樣的方式表達出來我剛特別提醒你一個點你是賴清德十一項重大施政裡面最慘的不滿意最高的滿意度最低的光是這點你就要趕快好好去檢討了好來我來請教那個蜂蜜吳思瑤啊前幾天就在這裡造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9902.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9914.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
他說啊 法庭直播需要593億會不會妳那天好像也在場對不對是哪來的593億 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9920.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9945.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
法庭直播需要593億嗎我想他需要那個經費是看他那個計算基準如果說是要每一個法庭就是然後都那個硬體那個建置的話他事實上那個費用很高沒有錯我先跟你講我們現在在詢詢對不對在詢討現在都是前程直播啊你知道嗎立法院一年那麼多場的現場直播我們八個委員會嘛對不對一年你知道多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9950.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9975.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
報告委員這部分我不了解吳思瑤說要593億這是將近593倍的造謠耶逆反一年的直播費用一億怎麼可以這樣造謠呢這是將近600倍的造謠太離譜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9976.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9987.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以我今天把真相跟大家講這是第一點錢不需要這麼多第二個台灣民眾黨的提案很清楚啊我們是針對什麼特定重要的社會矚目案件啊你說凱凱案大家關不關心很關心柯文哲案子大家關不關心很關心啊重大的社會矚目案件才要撥啊所以不是所有庭都在撥嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10008.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10030.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以請不要再造謠了錢第一個本來沒有那麼多第二個民眾黨非常的負責我們是針對特定重大社會矚目的這個案件好不好所以不是叫你所有的全部都要補沒有而且提出來當事人提出來之後你們還可以還可以決定說這個是屬於真正的特定重大的社會矚目案件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10032.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10052.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那個報告委員即使是那個重大矚目的那個案件的話他跟整個那個審判那個制度就是為了要追求一個公正的那個判決這常常那個有時候那個目的經過那個法庭直播之後是會受到影響的這個部分必須要非常審慎這個直播是你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10056.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10078.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
開這個私改國事會議早就定了耶2017年蔡英文總統召開的私改國事會議耶裡面喔 念一段文字給你聽好不好私改國事會議是有做出建議那但是它還是必須要經過那個主管機關非常負責跟審慎那個周延的那個評估才有辦法去實行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10079.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10105.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我先念一下搞錯那個決議之後整個輿論事實上也有非常非常多的那個意見這部分都可以去看的我們一步步來啦 第一 當初的結論是什麼107年司法院跟法務部要逐步開放法庭直播意即在執行意見後一年內要完成草案含請立法院審議這樣有更清楚了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10107.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10129.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
總統有開的耶而且明明確確要司法院跟法務部做這件事情嘛而且老實講 後來國民黨 民進黨都提案啊就是不見司法院跟法務部的案子啊這是當初的結論啊你可以看啊 這個有啊 對不對那你就跳票啊 欺騙大眾啊而且全世界 很多先進國家都在直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10137.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10165.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
鄉民逮捕那個案子最清楚,你看多少人在看而且這老實講,這是救我...要救你們這個司法公正性、司法改革崩盤被人家質疑一個很好的一個藥啦你這是公開透明嘛在那個直播過程裡面大家會發現檢察官的這個起訴的這個內容他到底有沒有揉製罪名有沒有把重要的這個關鍵的這個筆錄把它蓋起來有沒有不正的這個詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10167.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10179.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
你明明是頭家啊 全世界都是這樣子你國內的這個司改國師會也是這樣啊怎麼可以現在反而倒退入然後我剛剛跟你講 經費上也不是問題啊沒有吳思堯造有那麼多錢啊好 民眾黨會已經提出版本了我們現在禁錮二讀了嘛我們現在禁錮二讀了 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10190.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10212.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
那我跟你講我們很期待得到司法院跟法務部的這個支持然後講這個不是為了個人任何一個人這是為了台灣整個司法改革也為了司法整個公開透明這個是就目前就你們啦救命司法院跟檢調體系這段時間受到質疑很好很重要的一大步我今天要趕快跨出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10213.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10237.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
包委員其實目前的那個法庭公開其實就已經非常的公開透明了所有公開的案件所有的司法記者跟官信人都可以進到裡面去看那但是呢就是說法庭公開跟要直播這是完全不同的那個事情就是這些影像是立刻會無遠弗屆那個出去的對於所有參與訴訟的這個人包括被告不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10238.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10262.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
不是只有公務員 包括所有進到法庭去的這些被告證人 鑑定人 事實上他們的隱私權還有他們的人格權 那個保護都必須要非常審慎的去評估所以 護密 那為什麼美國 歐美他們為什麼都在直播那個跟委員報告 這部分司法院有做過其實大部分的那個先進國家都是那個反對 而且立法也規定說不能夠法庭直播 像德國 法國 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10263.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10280.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
日本有規定可以但是他們實務上從來都不做那歐陸國家幾乎整排通通都是那個不行做的美國有聯邦跟各邦聯邦那個法院也幾乎通通都是不能夠做只有開放那個各邦那如果真的要談的話美國它事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10283.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10307.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
他只有很少那個案件是進入到那個陪審團去大部分根本不進入訴訟的所以說他們幫的那個考量他會有其他那個特殊的考量那跟我們就是這種職業法系的那個國家考量完全是不一樣的而且要法庭直播事實上是增加當事人的負擔因為你影音出去的時候那個在現代那個影音時代你去當事人希望直播呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10308.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10321.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
你為什麼幫當事人決定說他不要直播呢第二個我剛講過了吧那當初為什麼蔡英文的司法國事會議他要這樣定那時候是產官學所有人都在包括你們司法院的代表法務部的代表都在喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10323.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10349.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
可以看一下那個當時的那個輿論其實大部分都是反對那司法院除了做那個就是委託案學者那個委託案之外我們也做過了好幾次的那個就是公聽會又做過那個學術研討會就是焦點團體的學術研討會大部分的幾乎通通都是反對的怎麼你聽到聲音跟社會的大眾都是不一樣的我們還特別去做民調我們說我們做的是焦點團體的我們還特別去做民調你來來來我唸給你聽知不知詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10353.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10362.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
針對特定的重大社會矚目案件 進行法庭的公開直播支持度多少 你知道嗎7乘5耶 不支持只有19.5耶差3、4倍耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10367.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10383.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
今天我們在那個議場的時候法官協會剛剛也發了一份聲明他們也是對於這個非常質疑的對於法庭直播非常質疑所以這件事情真的必須要非常審慎的評估因為一旦開放之後就沒有辦法回頭了 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10384.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10412.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
各種聲音都有啦那我剛剛跟你講了我沿用的第一個是我們做過民調第二個之前蔡政府提出來的司法改革會議的結論要你們提版本嘛然後後來國民黨跟民進黨各黨的連時代力量立法院都有提案喔都有提啊那全世界也有一些先進國家都有做啊那現在老蔣沒有錯我剛剛講的也有更嚴重的這對目前來講就是因為司法不受到信任你讓陽光射進來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10414.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10436.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
讓一些重大的案子讓人民可以看得到嘛你不是老闆讓人民來有一個公開透明的過程嘛你目前像目前一些重要的案子現在法庭公開大家都已經可以去旁聽了絕大部分都進不去吧對不對你有看過柯文哲每次開庭前一天的晚前一天大概下午就一堆人在那邊排隊根本都進不去啊你們是會這樣你們北院每次只要柯文哲 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10444.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10452.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
明天還要開庭 你今天下午去看 下午就有人在那邊排了就是一路人進不去嘛連我們立法委人家進去旁聽都聽不了啊讓全民可以公開透明讓陽光設計我們的法庭 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10463.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10482.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
謝謝委員我們先處理會議時間 上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止那因為我們剛剛已經有宣告了就是在張季愷委員詢答後休息五分鐘那我們現在休息五分鐘時間到我們就立刻開始 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10792.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10812.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
好謝謝我們繼續開會下一位我們請麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席有請錦珍署長還有中選會麻煩署長中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10822.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10849.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好委員好署長好署長看一下我們就是這個就是闖進我們的校園的案件我們署長你認為誰對誰錯是否是我們的警衛非常盡責還是說我們罷免的團體無法無天對根據我們對你先回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10851.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10879.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那對於校園的部分我們警察組的看法就是尊重校園的自治啦校園的自治尊重校園的自治因為我們警察進入校園也要經過他們的同意啦就是去處理一些相關的可能這些學生的這個事務也要透過學校的這個同意我們才能夠進入我們警察進入校園都是這樣子的所以對於校園的這個處置的一個方式那我們是尊重校園的這個自治 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10881.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10901.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好所以說我們但是我們根據交易基準法第6條的規定交易因本中立原則你們覺得這個人號稱自己是博士生有博士生的知識的能力卻還做出這種就是違法的行為除了違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10903.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10924.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
選爆法之外 還違反了社會秩序的維護法第73條規定與學校 博物館 圖書館 還有就是展覽會 運動會或其他公共場所口角紛爭的喧嘩之勢不停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10925.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10944.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
這樣子的人所以呢經過多吃幾排還有呢就是說勸導這是你們的語言但是呢就是就挑戰公權力已經是違法的行為如果你們覺得這樣子如何處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10944.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10973.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
好那這個學校當然第一時間如果警衛他會做處理那他處理沒辦法處理的時候他會像這個案子有報案報案之後我們到場之後就會做處置所以這個案第一個當然是尊重校園處理校園沒辦法處理要經過我們的這個對於他的可能處置治安難省要做我們行政協助或者是依法去處理我們警方會到場到場之後像這一件就有做在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10974.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10999.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
對這件的一個學生的訓斷都有做排除我們道場就有協助校方來處理有排除這件事情有排除這件事情就是沒有再進去因為他當時跟這個諸位警有發生衝突他如果說能夠處置不讓他進去那當然就離開嘛那當時在那邊有爭執沒辦法處理之後請警方道場警方道場之後有處置他就離開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11000.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11007.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以說你有沒有說要去傳喚他來說明為什麼說他已經這個我們的法已經通過了他還是這樣子的行為就無法無天了嘛問題就是說當時的狀況是有沒有違法就是有沒有告訴告發嘛有沒有違法這個校方有沒有要做告訴告發有一些就是屬於告訴乃論的這個部分有些還沒達到法律的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11026.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11045.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
你說學校也是有報案 你們已經介入了所以說只是勸導他離開所以說你們沒有去查 或者是說要去換他來說明為什麼他是博士 他還是做這樣子我們拜託我們署長齁 我們不要緊啦 少子化 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11049.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11061.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
讓孩子好好去讀書啦這個是拜託你 拜託你也是要讓不要再這樣子去打擾我們的學校也不要去打擾學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11062.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11071.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
這個部分希望我們警政署這邊因為我們這個人他已經進入這樣子的學校所以已經違法我們的選罷法第52條的規定與第104條的規定違法進入學校就是宣導的意圖了所以這個選罷法在114年2月18號已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11090.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11118.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
修法通過了所以我們希望我們的警政署這邊就是要去處理啦希望你不要讓他就是就是討債我們的公權力所以不能就是已經進入如果是他沒有讓學校那麼生氣不可能會報紙都登啦因為遷倒一次兩次這樣子的話他還在那一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11119.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11144.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
才會上報不會學校這樣子就馬上去上報啦這個才是說我們感覺是嚴重性啦好就希望我們的署長就是要去進一步的了解 好嗎好 謝謝好 接下來我要想要請教一下我們的NCC代理主委還有個資保護委員會的我們的訴發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11150.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11174.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
因為我們就是根據各自保護法第20條我們各自個人資料的利用於收集日必要範圍內非經過當事人同意不得為目標外的利用但是我們看到的 請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11176.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11195.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
誰給這些罷免團體使用簡訊發各自的權限還有說中選會是否掌握誰取得了連署人的手機資料還有是說第三方的聯繫的外卸抒發部還有我們各自保護委員會的籌備處是否舉動調查這個有做嗎 我們的行政有沒有依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11204.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11229.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
公園報告NCC的之前範圍內是針對三大電信業者這一塊我們都有要求他們來落實各自法尊那針對這個個案我們在5月5號5月9號都找他們來做行政調查那調查結果是這些資訊都不是三大業者他們的這個接受的簡訊的資訊都不是電信業者所提供電信業者也沒有提供其他的LBS服務以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11230.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11235.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我們法務部長說不談個案所以很多才會到我們這邊個案的話 只有查個案的話就是沒辦法去查到水落石出所以說我們難道我們今天任何人都可以就是以政治的目的任意就是發簡信嗎所以這種就是罷免為民就是已經洩露很多我們的個資了 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11257.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11272.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以我們要用這個個資保護法放在這裡,對我們人民真的沒有保障所以這樣子的,我們政府這樣子就是個案查也沒有說真正的是讓我們知道說怎麼樣去查出還有就是我們還是呢,就像我們之前我們的王一川委員說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11282.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11289.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
引發國家機器監控還是他用這樣子的方式用手機來對比掃描把這個資料給業者嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11296.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11317.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
這個部分我們也要查清楚喔電信業者部分我們已經查過沒有這種情況但是因為這個整個發送簡訊的流程有涉及到好幾個不同的業別那不同業別有對應不同的主管機關來處理那NCC的職長範圍內的部分已經查過目前並沒有違反各自的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11319.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11339.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
所以變成是罷免團體他們就是用抓的網路抓下來就是傳簡訊是這樣子的意思嗎所以沒有這樣情形他們的資料從哪裡來的應該有源頭啦電信業者的部分沒有洩露個資也沒有做目的外的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11341.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11364.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以你們查得很清楚有資料這些如果是說這些要被莫名其妙收到簡訊的人再來去檢舉的話你們每一個都查不要說個案通盤查當事人接受人他可以來主張他的權益用個資法後面的一些29條等等來做一些主張他的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11365.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11378.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
所以你們都有研查嘛但是我們沒有看到說你們可不可以提供說你們是有去查的因為任何的資料我們登錄我們登錄都有記錄的登錄資 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11380.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11399.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
資料都有記錄護證他們登錄看資料都有記錄所以說你們都沒有查出就說就查沒有沒有不是業者這樣子用說的我們真的沒有辦法說我們人民有保障有記錄有記錄那如果委員需要我們可以跟委員報告電信業者部分是沒有問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11400.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11421.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
好 OK如果是這樣子那麼明確的話我們希望說要保障我們人民的權利啦因為我們個資保護法已經定在那裡了但是有很多我們的資料都會被人家去盜用或者是傳點信莫名其妙就會傳到很多的點信所以我們才會覺得說今天希望我們NCC這邊還有就是我們中選會我們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11427.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11452.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
各個警政署我們就是要徹查因為這些都是有認證身份還有記錄的還有我們希望不允許我們民進黨在用民主的名義掩護違法的行為還有人民的手機不是你們的政治的工具資料也不是你們動員的機器的燃料民進黨是否有聯心 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11454.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11482.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
就不該再當個資公發因為我們希望真的徹底去查避免就是假罷免還有真真壓操控我們的人民的個資這樣我們真的是會感覺就是到處都要去預防人民這樣子的恐慌我們希望在這邊訴求各單位給明確的一個交代我們如果沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11483.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11508.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
還在被人民再來去打電話來跟我們投訴的話我們就會徹底我們就要去查這個事情希望大家就是要保護我們人民的個資也是保護我們人民的安全可以嗎再麻煩你沒有問題好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝 那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11522.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11537.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委您好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11550.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11572.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
這個各自外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11573.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11594.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11596.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11610.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
一般是沒有 技術上的話一定是電信公司因為基地台的資訊在電信公司所以九天大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11613.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11632.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11632.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11656.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
對沒錯但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務他必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那他電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司百貨公司知道你的地點所在他就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司他的來做這個目的外的利用是用戶要同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11657.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11660.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我們以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各自的用戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11678.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11697.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
各自的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用那麼這也是今天在討論就是說但是在中華電信的這個服務契約裡面看起來其實並沒有寫得那麼清楚到底所謂的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11698.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11720.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這個利用的範圍到哪裡這也是今天很多的委員其實都有在問的他到底是只能夠做商業的行銷還是說包含連政治行銷也可以在內又或者是日後有很多的所謂的活動行銷是不是都可以這個做都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問就ACC對這個看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11724.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11739.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應A to PA是advertisement就是廣告廣告性質包括商業用途包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11740.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11767.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11768.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11784.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11785.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11800.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11801.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11824.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
電信服務的契約 不能夠這樣子這麼空泛是 各位報告回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個頂到他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關 電信公司這方面是免責的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11826.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11844.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入這個用戶的門號對 是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11845.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11853.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對 因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有 它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊大發業者的企客來提供的對 可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11869.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11891.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟三大電信公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11894.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11899.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
對 是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11901.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11929.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
所有東西一定是經過電信網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11930.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11955.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11958.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11971.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
曾主委 這個跟你們的業務都有關這些個別的行業這跟電信業者有關的行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們上禮拜五已經把我們辦法結果函轉給他們所以你們函轉給哪個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11976.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11981.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12003.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12017.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12018.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12034.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12035.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12058.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不然是企業用戶他們掌握了這個個資 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12059.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12075.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12077.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12089.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
所以我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度要有動作嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12091.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12107.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一職權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12110.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12133.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這一個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12139.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12163.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12164.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12171.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多行銷公司他們需要這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12172.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12197.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間借滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12202.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12211.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎?商業廣告你不提供資料給他們,他們怎麼做商業行銷? |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12212.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12232.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12233.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12259.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個我跟委員把去識別化的資料系統那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理他是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12259.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12267.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託委託方 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12268.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12289.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們認為交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說了因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12290.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12311.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12316.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12340.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽一點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12342.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12361.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12364.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12387.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
對應今天這些討論的個案 都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12388.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12416.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12418.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12420.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
最後不好意思 我很快再問一個問題 剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12429.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12450.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12454.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12468.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中學會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12474.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12486.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
跟委員報告 首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12492.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12515.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
是我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了這個同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12516.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12540.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
因為這個一樣是沒有規範 那我們會盡快來做審查不是 因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳思瑤的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12543.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12568.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
是 他就是在送連署書的時候 他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定 好 但如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書 是嗎是 我們會盡快來審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12571.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12600.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
處長你講清楚麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂盡快就是24小時之內嘛這樣的話才能夠確保大家在6月7號之前把那二階的聯署書然後可以送達對不對因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案影響到這個後續的聯署書聯署人的名冊二階的聯署人名冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12601.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12626.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後二階的聯署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12627.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12640.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12653.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12673.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
對 就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好 因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚接下來人家罷免團體不知道怎麼做啊可以嗎 可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12680.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12701.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
可以再一點時間嗎 就是可不可以明天再好 那就明天好不好 明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好 這真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確 好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧 明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12702.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12723.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好謝謝那就麻煩要照處理那個中選會在法制上面設計是獨立機關不是執政黨的啦啦隊所以要麻煩秉公處理我知道那個翁委員在問什麼問題然後因為剛剛那個翁委員有麻煩中華電信要補資料嘛那就可以麻煩中華電信要幾天內補不給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12728.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12750.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
好 那個中華電信就麻煩星期五的時候補一下資料然後另外因為剛剛翁委員有提到那什麼叫做輪廓性資料 請說明一下這個部分我想翁委員應該是在問這個問題輪廓性資料的定義是什麼我剛剛那邊聽很久我也聽不懂所以可能要麻煩中華電信能夠跟翁委員說明這一塊 謝謝好 那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12763.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12765.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12776.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12796.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛 民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12797.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12821.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說 部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤 天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護 法務部仍在演繹中我想請問 到底是不採納還是零容忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12823.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12840.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
跟委員報告,我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護,我們一定要非常的落實,而且要非常完備。那的確這個是對有些虐殺這種是人神功天理然容,絕對是零容忍。 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12841.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12868.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那這部分我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這部分我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12869.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12893.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種零列那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的零列自加重接管有些可能會到殺人的那部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12894.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12908.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那這部分殺人根據271條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟10年以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在眼裡中 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12911.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12937.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12938.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12963.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎?是不應該的嗎?不是吧大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12963.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12987.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12988.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12995.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12998.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13017.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13019.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13033.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13034.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13050.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13053.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13074.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13075.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13092.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13093.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13118.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪請說沒有 那這個因為個案 我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列 陵列的一般陵列 陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列 陵列而至死以至到 甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13120.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13139.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱民安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13141.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13164.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13165.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13191.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我們已經提給 報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13191.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13218.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然是因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13220.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13243.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重的一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13244.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13266.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止這個都可以討論的所以你在這部分你的修法態度是保留的嗎保守沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐的部分如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13267.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13282.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以兒童的保護規定 我要跟文在德二七一條 那我會更重喔那會更重 我們是不是他的選項是到甚至可以考慮 我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果 你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13283.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13301.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13302.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13326.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13327.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13353.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條那個強盜致死啊他後面的致死也是屬於過失啊但是328條他是有死刑耶所以我國法制上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法制本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13354.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13378.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下那個強盜強盜後性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13379.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13404.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個林立仁致死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要採的就是我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標法務部是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13405.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13420.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在怎麼會有這種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13421.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13438.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我知道聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛但是我跟你講部長我先謝謝你啦因為剛剛說 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13445.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13466.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
這個納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13468.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13491.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐六十一個人耶六十一個人其中有三個被活活的虐殺結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這六十一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13493.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13506.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個三個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13508.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13530.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13531.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13548.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下他講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13550.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13571.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13572.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13594.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這一點是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長謝謝您 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13597.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13615.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
好謝謝部長好謝謝那個羅委員那現在我們請蔡易瑜有委員蔡易瑜蔡易瑜徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈賴世寶賴世寶賴世寶鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前好現在我們請王宏威委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13624.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13644.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長 麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13652.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13670.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13672.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13700.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署階段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13710.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13724.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13725.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13752.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 這剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13754.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13758.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法所以你現在不敢講了? |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13780.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13787.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
你不敢講 請問一下那個 法務部政部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13788.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13810.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
這個行為有沒有 這要就個案的認定那是個資法有沒有那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的 因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13812.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13817.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13821.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13845.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎這個委員報告就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年月日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13846.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13859.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
如果單純的一個電話號碼我們沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13873.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13892.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反個資法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反個資法 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13893.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13902.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 那我想請問一下 因為像我是被罷免人 我們很多委員是被罷免人那假使被罷免人 這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人針對這個區域 也發送這樣的簡訊就是說 哎呀 拜託 你要出來投票 要投不同意罷免 請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13915.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13925.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13945.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13946.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
因為你們的雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13952.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13974.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
的問題的話 那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人 他是被害人嘛對 民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發你看他還提供簡訊給大家 對不對看看有沒有成立他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊 部長 會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13978.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13990.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就判嘛 那我們會辦與不判之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14003.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14030.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14033.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14057.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14058.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14082.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗在指引裡面請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14084.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14112.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14113.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14132.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
不在但是在原來的我們地形化企業有要求還有個資法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14137.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14163.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14165.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14188.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來 是林副總因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14190.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14204.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解 不知道他怎麼來的他自己可以生成出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14205.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14223.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
跟蘿妍報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的當然啦我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14225.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14235.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道齁好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14247.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14274.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我們的職權範圍 作用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報 剛剛說有兩個層次 第一個層次是用戶同意LPS 第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C C是電信公司最後傳給使用者 B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司 他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明 他要負這個法律責任 他這要怎麼取得是合法還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14276.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14302.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14306.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14319.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
反正那個有涉及到犯罪的有經過告訴高發等等的那當然我們會啟動調查那不管不要說什麼個資啦如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪包括像這種可能涉及過去有查過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14321.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14323.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過 這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊 簡訊的問題我剛剛講說 簡訊這些所發的簡訊有 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14343.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14356.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
被設定特殊條件 並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉 我直接說 我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊 過年啊 他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊 什麼之類的那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙 因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14368.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14374.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管而且也不知道他的資料哪裡來的你關心的就是那個詐欺的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14393.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14399.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
根據你們過去的調查這些點訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14421.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14426.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些算什麼收集的就是最原始的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14439.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14450.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那個前端的那個是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊喔不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14467.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14476.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
因為他不能海量發送海量發送實在太貴了他要精準行銷所以這個照理講尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出他的樣態啊怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求像這樣子如果你們確定他是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14497.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14502.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
第二個 請你不要半藍不半綠不要半藍不半綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 霸團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14513.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14537.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資深記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14538.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14542.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公佈這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿一度這麼低的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14566.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14580.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14581.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14585.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就在這已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14608.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14636.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席也跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在可以我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才也講喔對不對 你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害嘛委員我的愛心 我對同情我絕對不會輸給你的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14639.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14660.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們現在在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要有這麼多的政治語言所以我剛才講說因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容我想這個叫我們一直在所以 寧願幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的寧願幼童 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14661.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14681.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛對不對這個絕對不是故意的喔好所以我們因為我們這個可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會 排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意這個委員妳放心 這部分我們會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14684.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14697.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義 這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請葉元芝委員進行詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14719.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14731.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
主委好 麻煩請NCC麻煩NCC代理主委主委好 還是想要先問一下簡訊的問題因為很多人收到這個簡訊之後都發現說他並沒有提供資料給那個霸團 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14739.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14761.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那這應該是侵略應該是侵犯個資沒錯吧先跟你確定一下這要個案來調查個案調查那比如說我現在就秀兩個個案給你看有一個他是說他收到一個什麼下一代歲月靜好是因為你的負重前行這就是霸團傳給他的行銷簡訊但他認為他根本沒有簽署任何的文件霸團怎麼取得他的電話那這個個案是有侵犯個資嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14763.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14779.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
這個要由相關對應的主管機關來調查說明你沒辦法啊我NC範圍內沒辦法跨越權限來做但是因為剛剛根據很多委員跟相關機關的詢答這應該是有啦因為電話我們看下一頁電話應該是屬於各自的一部分在下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14780.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14793.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
那我現在要請教一下因為三大電信公司是不是都已經說他們不會已經沒有提供LBS了沒錯吧LBS是有但是要用戶同意他才會提供要同意才提供對但是以我剛剛那個個案來講的話他是應該是沒有同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14798.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14810.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
對不對因為他本人並不知道嘛這兩個層次MBS要用途同意另外一個是說發送簡訊的源頭端他就精準掌握這些資訊那都跟電信公司無關那就是要問那個源頭端 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14813.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14829.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
好我再請教一下因為我們的這個簡訊的風險管理措施這邊就有提到說這個是去年10月公佈的對不對對去年10月公佈好那這個公佈之後對於LBS的管制有更嚴格吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14829.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14850.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
LBS那是在各自一般法徵本來電信公司必須要依據各自法的規定你要使用目的外的利用必須要用戶同意或依法他目前是用使用者來同意來提供所以如果當事人明確拒絕接受行銷的話是可以拒絕對不對對沒錯他已經收到了要怎麼拒絕 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14853.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14875.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
就是說今天是這樣子啦就是說因為這新聞爆出來嘛所以很多人就想說我很討厭這種行為嘛我不想要收到類似這種罷免的簡訊那他想要拒絕那現在的拒絕機制是什麼這個upup的廣告其實三大電信的官網都有其實可以打所以要打到電信公司主動去告知上網上網都可以去登錄辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14876.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14895.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
就要他們主動去拒絕去上網登記拒絕那這個部分NCT有幫忙宣導嗎還是說要三大電信公司宣導說因為現在有很多人收到這種簡訊不甘其擾如果你不想要介紹的話你可以上網去登錄你沒有宣導嗎我們也會繼續再加強宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14898.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14919.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
好那第二個就是那電信公司跟一般的這種用戶有沒有簽定型化契約就是說他以後拒絕的時候他可以直接在契約擺明如果電信公司違法的話要負什麼樣的責任有嗎就你的了解是要負什麼責任如果他已經拒絕像類似這種他通通都不要然後也有簽合約可是他還是收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14919.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14936.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
各自的部分如果他電信公司沒有照的話他就沒有照的錯誤他就違反個資法20條那個非公司機關的一些不正當的利用不正當的利用那違反個資法嘛會那個當然那個檢方會去調查嘛那我現在講的是說那他跟電信公司之間的民事責任是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14938.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14960.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
民事責任看他們的契約你有審視過那個契約嗎因為現在大家都偏向在那個形式部分但是因為NCC主要是要管那個電信公司可能電信公司也要負一定的企業責任就是說那如果還是譬如說剛剛講說這個責任可能在行銷公司但是電信公司也做行銷公司的其中一個工具嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14961.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14981.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
那也連帶的影響到這個消費者嘛所以應該是也有連帶責任那這一塊的責任是什麼這一塊的責任其實是以電信管理法第四條電信行為的發生效果如發送人來負責以今天這種態度我是說簽了約那他也明確拒絕了他也明確拒絕然後但是他也是收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14982.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15003.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
那這怎麼這個NCC是怎麼去如果他有明確的他有收到那就是中華電機這方面理由上會有一些責任那你們有請那個電競公司加強這一塊嗎我們持續都有要求他們要因為這個事件我想要問就是說這個事件發生之後NCC到底做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15004.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15026.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我們做兩次行政調查除了調查之外有沒有去防避這件事情嗎第一個我剛剛問說你們有沒有這樣宣導嗎說大家如果不想收到的話比如說你剛剛講說可以上網登錄但大家知不知道可以上網登錄嗎第二件事情就是他明明可以明確拒絕那在合約上怎麼保障他拒絕權利如果電信公司違反這規定的時候他應該負責什麼樣的賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15028.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15046.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
根本沒報告因為我如果問說什麼刑事責任大家又會推說什麼個案調查這些的就沒有沒有我現在講的是主管機關可以作為的部分有我們去在修訂三大電信業者的各自宣告事項裡頭也有發佈相關的一些FB跟新聞稿就告訴他們說就是這個事件之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15047.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15061.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我們是在事件之前就通案性那還是發生的嘛所以你們有沒有再進一步的作為有沒有我們應該這兩天會再進行再進一步的宣導說這個up out的機制好 謝謝那接下來想問一下那個中選會中選會 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15066.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15085.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
這個是有人傳給我的就是一個聯署書然後他是反映說有人找他去簽名但是那個罷免聯署書上面把他的名字還有出生年月日身份證字號跟戶籍地都已經打好了然後去找他簽名請問一下這個有沒有違反個資 中委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15089.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15107.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
這個是要看他如何取得那些資料那是另外一個問題沒有那個當事人說他不知道他並沒有找到簽名的人他根本不認識啊那這樣有沒有侵犯個資如果說是個資的資料的來源如果是非法蒐集的話那什麼樣叫非法蒐集 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15108.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15137.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那當然就是有可能是如果說以連署的而言就是不是他並沒有提供給找他連署的人這個資料嗎那人家居然有他的資料然後找上門來找他簽名有可能那中學會有沒有去查這個狀況有沒有我沒有見到個案的相關所以如果說有個案跟中研會檢舉的話中研會會去查是不是那如果最後發現說這個是有違反格子會踢掉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15140.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15165.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
如果是偽造不過重點不是說這些資料而是說你當事人你是不是有簽名蓋章是否簽名蓋章所以這個跟中選會踢不踢要無關應該是這樣講因為中選會只認定的是說他是不是本人簽名但是有沒有侵犯克制這個就是要問問法務部其他的資料我問一下部長好不好請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15168.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15177.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
部長如果是這樣的話有違反個資嗎有沒有違反個資是個案的做一個對我現在就問另外那個就委員關心的這個個資的蒐集處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15180.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15204.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那個處理那個利用那個我們看這個收集就要第15條第16條以及第19條第20條這個收集處理利用要合乎這四個法條以及第六條敏感性的個人資料的一些法定我的問題很明確就是說如果有一個人在家裡面然後有的人拿幫他把連鎖的所有資料都打好來找他簽名 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15205.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15231.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
那他覺得我們並沒有提供資料給你過啊你怎麼會我的資料叫我簽名這樣有沒有違反個資這個有嗎這個是19條的一個問題那如果說來家愛家愛護去弄我認為這個有沒有違反個資這可以另外再不是來家愛護他資料都打好連那個身份證字號跟出生年月日都有如果說這個個資的一個個資的一個所有人個人資料的所有人他認為這樣有違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15232.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15252.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
第19條的一個規定的話他可以沒有 法條規定跟他認不認為無關我現在是問部長你覺得這樣子有沒有違反你只要講有沒有違反就好這個個字是怎麼來的他就覺得 他就在懷疑這是怎麼來的他懷疑的話當然可以提出告訴他認為是有犯罪嫌疑他可以提出告訴那我們就會辦案 就會啟動偵辦所以這樣子應該是有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15254.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15282.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
那這個要個案的我沒辦法跟你講這就是有或沒有這樣子還沒有我沒有講沒有我說這樣子這樣沒辦法認定嗎這個不能用這個整個辦案不能說直接就這樣認定但是這個如果說那個被害那個個資的所有人他認為有這樣的得中因為我的個資可能有受到侵害囉那這樣的話當然他就可以來搞那部長那我順便問一下我想問一下那凱爾案因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15283.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15289.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
後來你最新的說法是有十幾萬的人在公共平台最新的說法就是說我們沒辦法去接受這種我都還沒問問題我們這是人神共憤 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15300.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15318.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我想這個大家我們要以最大的一個力量去讓這些法制做一個完美來充分來保護這些兒童早上您的這個我因為有看新聞報導的啦我們就有新聞稿然後那個不是說我早上改成好沒關係你後來的說法是說你不要那麼緊張我都還沒有問問題部長不要那麼緊張我都還沒有問問你知道我要問什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15326.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15347.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
你說凱凱命案我就闡述說我都還沒有問我的問題我只是提到說我想要關心這個案子你就啪啪講一大堆我都還沒講我要問什麼我是想問說因為第一時間那個時候有十幾萬人在公共平台上面表示說希望略同致死能夠納入唯一死刑然後或者是無期徒刑不得假釋嘛那當時法務部是說不可能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15347.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15369.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
但後來又改說要研議中嘛那我是想問說法務部後來為什麼會有這樣的一個改變中間是考量到什麼所以一開始是覺得不可能後來又覺得可以研議那你們考量的點是什麼這個本來就是對向來對我們對兒童少年的這些權力的保護我們是不予一例那為什麼一開始說不行那這個沒有說這個是一個公共裡面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15376.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15404.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
選項的一個問題這個我們看裡面的內文的話我們是沒有這樣的一個講的喔所以你從頭到尾都沒有說不行我們可以講說這個叫延益喔我們可以說一開始是說不行嘛然後後來說延益中嘛那你的轉折的點在哪裡這個本來就是我們就是一項你一項都在一項就是我們向來就是要充分落實保障的這些的權利那為什麼一開始不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15405.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15421.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
我們沒有說這個是一個選項的一個問題但是我們這個之前是我們沒有矛盾的沒有矛盾所以從頭到尾都是說演繹中我們是把著重在我們著重在做現狀的法律的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15424.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15442.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
但我想這個我想那麼多人的聲音我們一定看到了所以之後是有可能就是終身監禁不得假釋這有可能的你們在研議中嘛對不對有可能的嘛你們朝這個方向是不是這個我想委員齁這個我們剛才我有說明過齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15444.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15464.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這個零類的很多的類型齁那剛才有講說是不是可以至此可以我們一個一個一個增加一個死刑的一個一個選項因為現在最高是無期徒刑嘛那另外這個是這些零類一開始又以零類當殺人手段這就到殺人罪了殺人罪這個本來就我們現在講的是286條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15466.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15471.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
286條 因為這個這個寧略的不是286條這個還有先等到271條 286條還有那個302之1條那個好幾個法條所以我們要重新再做一個檢視把這個對弱食對未滿7歲的甚至不要說未滿7歲 未滿18歲的這些的保護我們要更加的一個徹底那我們現在在研理齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15491.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15520.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
看如何把這個法制做一個完備那大概什麼時候你們會演繹出來這個我們現在已經演繹另外那個關心假釋的問題本來我們假釋有殺人殺人未遂10年以上違反社會治安的這些的這些犯罪我們本來就已經提出不得假釋現在行政院那你剛剛前面一個大概什麼時候演繹出來我們近期內會我們盡速來做一個一個演繹我想我們會加快這個速度這個經委很放心好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15525.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15549.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
好 謝謝那所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員許諾時有要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請機關請速送交個別委員及本會委員您欠其所提書面執行列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面回覆本會議進行到此 現在休息 謝謝大家 |