| IVOD_ID |
16684 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16684 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-15,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-19T08:31:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-19T11:51:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:20:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea9d66b4f497eb78a002ea0e8b14a04e9052bdb8234cc31cace78ef73fe24c006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十、繼續審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員范雲等24人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員徐富癸等17人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。【第十七案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:14 - 11:51:59 |
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132.568 |
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MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
695.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
696.595 |
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Zither Harp |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2159.281 |
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2168.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
大家早安不好意思請主任秘書報告出席人數報告聯席會出席委員16人已足法定人數好那我們現在開會進行討論事項請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2171.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2197.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
继续审查委员赖世宝等20人拟据地方制度法第7条之1条文修正草案继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法增订第7条之4条文草案继续审查委员吴丽华等17人拟据地方制度法第83条之3条文修正草案继续审查委员吴丽华等16人拟据地方制度法第52条及第61条条文修正草案继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法第56条条文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2197.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2223.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
继续审查委员李坤诚等20人拟据地方制度法第78条条文修正草案继续审查委员李燕秀等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正草案继续审查委员高金苏美等18人拟据地方制度法第83条至3条文修正草案继续审查委员鲁明哲等16人拟据地方制度法第7条至1条文修正草案继续审查委员徐晓欣等21人拟据地方制度法第55条条文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2224.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2247.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
继续审查委员卢宪英等18人拟据地方制度法部分条文修正草案审查委员邱振军等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正草案审查委员苏清泉等19人委员黄杰等18人委员范云等24人委员徐富鬼等17人委员许志杰等26人分别拟据地方制度法第33条条文修正草案宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2249.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2275.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 謝謝本市審查之法案 業經本會於114年1月13日第11屆第二會期第一次內政及司法委員會聯席會議報告及詢答結束並決議另定期繼續審查原始本市會議繼續進行審查現在進介紹在場委員及列席官員委員部分 張志倫委員羅志祥委員我們張宏祿委員王美惠委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2279.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2302.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
蘇巧慧委員黃捷委員我們范雲委員還有我們盧憲毅委員官員部分我們內政部劉思芳部長原住民族委員會鍾清華副主任委員財政部阮清華政務次長這樣可以嗎?對不對?在哪裡?我每次都把他放在後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2304.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2314.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好那我們就本日議程因為有這個委員陸陸續續提案新增審查之法案我們請提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請范雲委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2324.152 |
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2346.168 |
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朝偉跟大家好我想我的提案主要是希望能夠在過去的四分之一的婦女保障名額調整為三分之一然後是任一性別那有幾個原因第一個這個條款已經25年沒有修法那過去這個不足四分之一的保障已經失效地方制度法上次 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2346.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2367.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
修法是1999年規定地方民意代表選舉選區裡面每四個人當選人必須有一名是女性那根據台大黃長林教授的研究這個保障已經失效那為什麼因為第一個它表面上是四分之一實質上是七分之一到四分之一因為五到七人的選區只有保障一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2368.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2389.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
以2022年的選舉為例有22%超過五分之一的議員選區沒有任何一個女性議員當選甚至有些地區連女性的參選人都沒有而且這種保障方式它存在著城鄉差距應當選三人以下的小選區毫無保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2390.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2419.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
2022年我們看到全國鄉鎮市區民代表會中有47%接近一半的選區完全沒有女性當選那有40%的選區到現在完全沒有女性參選人等於是零女性選區有四個選區更是從2010年到現在從來沒有女性當選過那包含宜蘭大同屏東琉球屏東車城金門烏丘那這是第一個重點25年這個部分沒有修 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2419.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2444.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第二個是這次其實是一個進步的調整把過去的婦女黨當選名額只保障女性改成任意性別不得低於三分之一我想如果某些選區只有女性參選的話其實男性也應該要被保障所以這個條款可以促進選舉結果的性別平衡跟多元那第三其實SEDO國際的SEDO就是已經講到50% |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2447.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2462.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那过去行政院跟内政部从2011年到2024年十多年来举办多场的检讨会会议的记录都有共识说应该要修成三分之一性别比例原则那2022年我们台湾第四次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2462.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2480.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
CEDAW國家報告國際的審查委員也建議我國政府應該加強保障婦女參政權並給出具體的措施提高保障名額設立招聘跟晉升的優先條款我想我們這次修法至少希望能夠得到跨黨派的共識我們這邊除了我之外黃婕委員也有提案希望能夠改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2490.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2503.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
跟世界的趨勢也跟台灣的就是不同性別的參政實力相當的三分之一性別保障以上謝謝范瑩委員的提案說明接下來我們請黃婕委員進行提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2513.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2527.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好 主席各位同仁大家早安在我的地方制度法的修法當中也是強調性別應該要不低於三分之一因為大家也知道說台灣在性別平權的道路上一直都非常努力向前那也獲得國際的肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2530.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2547.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然後在消除對婦女一切形式歧視公園裡面也明確有指出說女性參與政治和公共生活的比例應該至少達到三成到三成五以上這也是一個國際趨勢那我國的憲法裡面更是明定應該要保障婦女的名額 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2548.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2559.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
可是現行的地方制度法在1999年設立了四分之一婦女保障名額之後雖然很明確的有看到說提升女性參政的意願有正面的影響但是到目前為止已經過了二十幾年我們發現還是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2563.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2582.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
應該要再往前走所以尤其是在這種地方政治參與的場域當中我們認為應該要更進步因為在地方的民意代表裡面僅適用當選名額超過四人的選區導致說很多當選名額如果是三人以下的小選區性別保障的制度就沒有辦法發揮作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2584.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2589.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
以2022年地方選舉的數據來說全國有681個鄉鎮市民代表的選區當中有多達318個選區完全沒有女性當選比例是47%近五成近五成的選區裡面完全沒有女性當選這代表什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2603.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2623.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
这代表说在基层的政治当中女性的声音和参与还是面临结构性的障碍甚至是刚刚其实范委员也提到说有四成的选区是完全没有女性参选过的所以我们认为地方制度法还有在修正的空间所以我在33条里面提到两个 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2623.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2641.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一個是要擴大保障的範圍落實基層的參與包括說選區當選人數如果達三人以上那任意性別不得低於三分之一這其實不只是保障女性也同時保障男性也就是說在一個選區當中男性跟女性參與的機會是平等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2642.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2664.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第二個保障多元的觀點提升決策的品質這樣的修正可以強化對於女性參政權的保障更多元更均衡的代議結構可以讓政府的施政更充分的參與不同群體的觀點來提升公共政策的品質跟周延性所以也希望所有的委員可以不分黨派的一起支持這一個提案謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2670.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2695.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那因為今天有新增條文所以我們各個機關還有在準備新的書面報告好那我們就請各位委員自行參閱我們並且刊登公報你要代表是誰代 蛤喔好可以可以可以對因為它是上次新增的版本沒關係我們在逐條的時候都可以發言好不好我們那時候再來做補充就好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2697.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2706.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好那麼報告聯席會現在要宣讀新增提案討論事項第12至17案之條文以及相關修正動議請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2710.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2728.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第33條委員蘇清泉等19人提案第二項第三款第一幕前段修正為鄉鎮市人口在1000人以下者不得超過5人人口在1萬人以下者每減少1000人遞減1人至7人為止其餘同線性條文委員黃婕等18人提案委員范雲等24人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2728.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2749.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第五项修正为各选举区选出之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表名额达三人者每三人任意性别不低于三分之一比例第六项修正为直辖市县市选出之山地园住民平地园住民名额达三人者每三人任意性别不得低于三分之一比例乡镇市选出之平地园住民名额达三人者 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2750.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2765.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
每三人任意性别不得低于三分之一比例其余同现行条文委员徐富贵等17人提案第二项第三款第一幕前段修正为乡镇市人口在1000人以下者不得超过5人人口在7000人以下者不得超过7人其余同现行条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2766.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2792.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
委员许志杰等26人提案第五项修正为各选举区选出之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表名额达四人者应设性别比例当选名额各选举区当选之结果含性别比例当选名额需符合单一性别不低于四分之一之比例第六项修正为直辖市及有山地乡之县市选出之山地原住民平地原住民名额在四人以上者应有妇女当选名额超过四人者每增加四人增一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2793.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2819.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
市及无山地乡之县选出之原住民名额在四人以上者应设性别比例当选名额各选举区当选之结果含性别比例当选名额需符合单一性别不低于四分之一之比例山地乡以外之乡镇市选出之平地原住民名额在四人以上者应设性别比例当选名额各选举区当选之结果含性别比例当选名额需符合单一性别不低于四分之一之比例其余同现行条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2820.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2839.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第55条委员邱振军等16人提案将第一项中段至副市长二人修正为至副市长三人并删除人口在250万人以下之指辖是得增至副市长一人等文字其余同现行条文第56条委员邱振军等16人提案第一项后段修正为人口在125万人以上或 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2843.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2853.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
行政區域面積超過1000平方公里之縣市德曾智副縣市長一人均由縣市長任命並報請內政部被查其餘同現行條文修正動議第33條 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2857.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2882.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第五项修正为各选举区选出之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表名额在三人以上者应有任意性别当选名额一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人第六项修正为直辖市县市选出之山地原住民平地原住民名额在三人以上者应有任意性别当选名额一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人乡镇市选出之平地原住民名额在三人以上者 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2883.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2908.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
已有任意性别当选名额一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人增订第七项中华民国全年全月全日修正之前二项条文自中华民国一百十九年十二月就职之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表适用之原第七项一列为第八项其余同现行条文提案人文黄杰等五人宣读完毕 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2912.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2913.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在就進行豬條協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3182.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3203.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們先請我們劉仕芳部長針對這段時間新增的提案做一下內政部的態度的說明來 謝謝昭緯有關於今天所新增的地方製度法的部分大概就是落在55條 56條跟33條的部分有關於邱振軍委員所提到的直轄市政府副市長人數統一規定為三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3204.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3218.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那這個部分我們覺得說目前為止地方上沒有真正的反應有急迫爭執的需求是否一律爭執的話仍然需要凝聚共識因為在邱振軍委員同樣的這個跟55 56相關的部分他有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3219.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3241.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
如果土地面積超過1000平方公里的縣市的話可以增置第二位副市長或副縣長那現在有10個縣市得設置第二位副縣長我們也覺得說有進一步討論的空間但是呢還是一樣需要你去共識那這個部分可能在增加方面的地方政府的並不是很急迫的反映這樣子的增置的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3241.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3261.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那再來有關蘇清泉委員所提到19人蘇清泉委員等19人提案的部分就是人口1萬人以下的鄉鎮市民代表總額減緩的規定會使人口差距比較明顯的鄉鎮市選出相同代表的席次它的合理性跟公平性不一臆 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3262.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3289.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
包括徐富奎委員所提到的鄉鎮市民代表的席次不得超過7席的人口數有1萬人修正為7千人那這個部分恐怕我們執行上會碰到一些矛盾因為實務上現在已經有9個代表會按照現行的規定減少席次那如果再把它降低為7千人的話等於是說以往的這個9個代表會的席次還要再增置回來這個是比較奇特 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3290.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3319.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那再來就是有關黃婕委員、范玉委員所許智傑委員所提到的這個地方民意代表婦女保障名額調整為任一性別名額我們認為這是一個進步性的法案但是也有待各政黨的共識那這樣子的方式呢在促進性別平等方面是有助於我們在民主政治上的體現尤其是以多席次的這個縣市議會或者是鄉鎮市代表會為主所以建議這個任一性別當選名額是改成 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3320.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3323.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
每達三人應有一人進行修正以上好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3330.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3353.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為它是逐條協商我們還是逐條跑一跑因為這個法案上一次就講說另外定期處理那我覺得多花一點時間做討論是有必要的因為其實這個加上新進來的提案版本它其實版本的數量是很多而且面向其實是不太一樣大家關注的地方不太一樣所以我們還是今天逐條逐條大家針對不同的意見跑一次看看有沒有一些想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3354.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3371.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那我覺得我們今天因為我有看那個出席委員還有提案委員的這個狀況嘛我們就還是先以今天有出席的委員為主所以第七條之一齁我們賴思柏委員跟盧明哲委員提案版本這個升格改制這一個部分我們國民黨會有要代表說明的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3375.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3388.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
對沒關係因為這是上次不予處理嘛那不在嘛但我的意思是我會多排幾次這樣子的會讓每一個有提案的委員都盡量可以達成那個但是你如果都不來那我當然就沒有辦法我就不處理好不好我主持的原則會是這樣喔 對不起我是要說喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3392.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3407.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我覺得這樣也很浪費時間不是啦,你既然你提案之後你之前沒來講,然後沒在庭又沒講,就在庭放棄了你現在今天又要在庭再講,我覺得是有多尊重主席啦我覺得你如果這樣,你就是沒你都在庭坐在這裡的人大半天在這裡浪費時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3421.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3446.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
不會 所以我的處理模式一向是我處理的模式一向是這樣 我會徵詢 因為各政黨 這政黨徵詢本來就是這樣 大家可以分工的如果有委託相關的委員來做說明 來做討論 那我們就討論如果沒有 那我們就不處理其實這樣是很清楚的 我覺得也比較平衡啦 好不好所以第七條的部分有沒有特別委託 沒有的話我們就今天也是不處理 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3455.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3479.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
如果下一次我們除非今天就已經把法案都做出結論要送出委員會了要不然原則上我都還是會讓大家有機會去發言好不好讓他完整OK這個我認為在每一個法案裡面充分溝通本來就是工作我們都希望可以充分的我希望盡量保障大家不同意見的這不管是對於哪一個政黨的標準一致我覺得就可以了OK |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3483.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3485.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好 7條之4 有補充說明嗎沒有齁 OK 那我們不處理來 33條剛剛這個部長有做說明嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3507.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3530.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
然後還有33條也是所有的那個性別保障名額嘛對不對好我們這邊33條來做一下討論來請黃教委員好那因為我原本的提案是說任意性別不達三分之一以上就要有保障名額然後因為其實剛剛我們有跟內政部討論過所以我有提一個修正動議應該大家手上都有可以看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3531.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3556.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我们修正动意是改成说在三人以上有任一性别当选民而一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人所以大家可以看一下文字这个会再更就是变动不会这么大一点点这样子大家可以看一下手上的这个文字那也敬请大家可以支持今天就可以送出是最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3560.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3560.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
請蘇曉輝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3564.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3590.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝主席我這裡想要表示的應該是說我們其實有好幾位委員提出了版本主要是原來的的話是蘇清泉委員還有徐富奎委員大概都是屏東的委員但我覺得他們發現問題然後提出版本我們都表示尊重但我想請部會回答我們說就兩位委員提案的版本對於現在的鄉鎮市民代表會 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3591.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3609.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
他的影響到底是什麼哪些地區會有名額的增減那這樣來修法是不是妥適那另外對於剛剛這個黃婕委員還有范瑀委員提出的這個女性名額的這個部分呢其實我們是共提我有共提我們是表示支持也希望部會表示意見謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3610.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3639.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好 謝謝 部長剛剛 部長我們剛剛那個蘇小月委員問說因為兩位屏東的委員提出來有關於鄉鎮市民代表名額修正的部分大概對於具體的員額上哪些鄉鎮市代表會員額受到影響分別是什麼 可不可以請他再做一下補充說明我可以再對 對 對沒有 我覺得如果有委員願意關心這樣子我認為都都是可以接受的當然可以啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3642.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3667.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好啊那沒關係那我們就先就我們就先不用討論這個部分好了我們先聚焦在這個委員都出席的黃婕委員提出的這個修正動議的部分好了張文昭有要補充嗎我只有一個就這個修正動議沒有什麼特別意見可是我想請問一下他這邊裡面有寫超過三人者每增加三人增一人但 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3670.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3696.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
如果啊齁比如說他有六個是不是變成兩個對不對那會不會跟我們現行的四分之一的保障會不會有衝突你三個三個三個九個他也是三個但如果現在以現行的條款八個是兩個我只是要請教一下這個我們立法可能這邊要注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3698.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3728.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
對啊 啊他如果九個的話就變三個都不會有衝突喔對議員對什麼這個 嘿主席但是用比例三分之一的話我舉一個例子比如說四個人四個人的三分之一是1.33他就變成要保障兩個就變成不合理如果是每三人保障三個是保障一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3728.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3750.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
再加三個再保障一位這樣邏輯是清楚的那我也幫忙說明一下喔不知道那個黃捷委員的修正是每達三人者嗎就是因為他現在的版本是有三人以上者我建議文字跟原本的現狀的條文是 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3751.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3775.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
名額達四人者應有就是後面都就是剛剛講單一性別那那個張宏路委員的我們解釋一下這就是為什麼我剛剛講的就是其實我們現在所謂的四分之一婦女保障實質上是七分之一到四分之一那如果現在黃婕委員的這個修正動議通過的話就會是三分之一到五分之一那這個部分這樣解釋應該沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3776.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3794.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以現在就是說每四人會有一人八人會有兩人那以後就是每三人會有一人六人會有兩人那等於就是增強保障那它的優點是任意性別都有保障到如果現在就是三個都是女的未來就會應該是兩個女的一個男的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3794.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3820.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那我想那這部分影響的比較小的就是一些比較會影響的是小選區啦那大選區的話可能就是在人數比較多的部分會增加看是哪一個性別是弱勢目前譬如說從來沒有女性當選的有宜蘭大同屏東琉球屏東車城金門烏丘那是我們在這邊2010年到現在從來都沒有女性當選過這樣請李柏宜委員然後汪玲蕙委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3822.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3845.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
其實我們這個方向上對於剛剛其實有講到其實這是性別保障而不是婦女保障強調一下為什麼我一定要強調是性別保障而不是婦女保障因為在我的選區裡面九個議員的席次裡面你知道女性是超過六個 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3846.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3875.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
即將被保障的是男性高雄市左營跟男子所以說這個但是會有問題的是我還是具體的提出來一下經過我們這個修法的討論之後我覺得這個實施的日期也要讓所有可能現任以及現在其實已經明年就面對地方選舉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3876.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3884.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那所以實施的日期我會建議說我們可以再修正往下一屆去調整讓所有選區都有來得及去處理這個問題以上提出 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3891.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3897.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
現在是原住民有五個女性的一員三名男性的一員按照這樣的比例的話應該是男生要再多一席現在是5比3 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3915.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3928.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
所以可是在現行的法律是要保障女性的那個參政權所以等於是那個男生是沒有辦法選的在平北的那個原住民地區所以這個部分是不是一起考慮副主委應該知道謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3933.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3950.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
主席謝謝,在這就是說,我們說這麼簡單就是說現在沒有保障任何女性啦就是你那個選舉的單位,你如果三個當選都是女性你就一定要有一個男性啦現在不是說有男性去受這個罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3962.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3985.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這樣是不是這個問題要公佈全數因為以前都希望說女性出頭體嘛跟都補充女性你有四個就一定要有一個女性啊跟現在是你如果有三個就是要更看那個性別是沒有的就是要有一個補充那個性別是不是這樣 議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3988.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4009.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
我稍微重整一下大家的意見就是說第一個現在按照現在的條文修正精神基本上就是盡量要達到性別之間的平衡所以有可能女性多的地方未來會有男性保障其實就是這樣男性多的地方就有女性保障我們部裡面我請教一下內政部部長部裡面有沒有統計一下這樣子跟現行狀況落差比較大的選區有哪些 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4010.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4034.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
是不是把資料補充給大家那當然剛剛李博弈委員這概念我是蠻贊成的就是說要有所謂的日出條款因為這個一定牽涉到我們都講這個大白話嘛這個一定牽涉到各政黨在下一次的地方選舉的布局嘛因為選舉要找人才嘛那你到底要不要性別考量它就是一個門檻或是一個戰術的考量所以你必須要做這樣的事情的所以說有日出條款的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4034.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4056.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那在內政部提供資料的同時我也請在場的委員因為現在我們黃酒委員這邊有提修正動議嘛那現在因為33條也蠻多人提案版本都不太一樣那是不是先收束成一個版本好不好這個看一下你們大家看一下彼此之間的版本是要以這份修正動議為主還是怎麼樣那一邊文字上哪一邊做調整是不是我們花一點點時間來做討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4059.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4064.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
就以黃捷的修正版本看內政部有什麼意見可以啊沒關係你們商量好就好好請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4067.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4092.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
谢谢赵伟那个黄杰等六位委员的那个提案里面有一个小的部分就是说是不是民国119年在试用但是我们可不可以把它写成民国119年12月25日因为在25日就职之前万一譬如说有些当选的委员议员有些什么状况的话那他会出现那个性别上面的差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4099.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4114.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
加上25日這是一個其他有在問縣市議會或者是鄉鎮市代表裡面的這些目前為止沒有辦法達到我們要修正內容的部分我請我們的民政司長跟大家做一下簡單的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4124.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4147.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那個我剛剛有收到訊息那個法治局有給我們的意見立法院法治局你那個日出條款的部分應該放在這個條文的最後面要放在最後面他有講他因為跟45條的某一些法律條文有抵觸這是立法技術的問題好不好大家商量一下那需要寫這個嗎對啊就是把這一項嘛第一個把內政部加進來這是25號嘛對不對這大家應該沒有問題對不對第二我們把這個順序往後放 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4154.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4166.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
來可以的話我們就key在上面可以嗎好我剛剛有問說哪一些選區會有比較大的影響請民政司說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4167.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4186.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
如果依照現在改為三公選一人的話台北市會有18位的保障名額新北市會19位桃園16位台中16位台南15位高雄市17位宜蘭6位新竹縣8位 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4188.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4214.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
苗栗縣10位、彰化縣14位、南投縣9位雲林縣13位、嘉義縣10位、屏東縣15位台東縣6位、花林縣10位、澎湖縣4位、金門縣5位延江縣1位、基隆市8位、新竹市有8位嘉義市有7位,是保障名額的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4218.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4235.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
您剛講的是縣市議會的部分嗎 直轄市議會跟縣市議會對啦 我要問的是 對 這一點我是同意 崑禎委員講跟縣況的差別 因為剛剛我們可以憑印象舉例嘛比如說哪一些選區女生特別多的 哪一些選區都只有男生沒有女生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4236.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4261.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
因為我在日經跟新北比起來的話其實新北現狀是比這一個保障更多啦對啊可是鄉鎮市民代表應該有差啦沒關係 再補充一下好 那范議員剛剛我有講到就是它影響比較大的應該會是那個鄉鎮市區的民代會啦因為從2022年選舉的資料有47%幾乎一半的完全沒有女性當選就零女性當選區 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4262.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4280.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那有40%的鄉鎮市區民代會完全沒有女性參選人 零女性參選所以影響比較大的應該就是鄉鎮市區民代會那個部分影響是最大的剛剛市長這樣報告其實也不準因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4285.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4307.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
因為為什麼要我們為什麼要提出日出條款就是說他還是要有時間準備嘛這跟政黨的提名跟到時候選舉的方式一定的結構一定是有變動的那你現在提出來的是因為我們現在這一套四分之一這一套制度選出來然後有受到性別或婦女保障名額的這個額數這個這個是絕對是失真的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4311.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4326.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那經過這一步法修了之後你如果要真的要比是用這一步經過這個三位就有一位然後套用在上一次的選舉結果可能會有多幾位性別保障的比例出來這個才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4327.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4349.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
其實我們要聽的啦但是也會隨著我們有日出條款到時候狀況又不一樣所以這個我還是會覺得范雲委員跟黃婕委員提出來這個還是會讓不同性別有多一層的這個參政的比例的保障這個我們表示支持但是實務的狀況你如果真的要比是要比上一屆的得票數啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4354.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4371.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
再補充說明一下那個議員的部分如果依照目前的規定是保障名額是160位如果三人選一人的話保障名額會237位會增加77位的保障名額 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4372.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4396.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
在這個代表的部分現行的規定保障的名額是232位如果依照薛政文三人選一人的話這個保障名額會有473位增加這保障名額增加我所說的是保障的名額 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4397.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4425.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
就是說保障的名額所以說這個保障名額如果由四分之一改成三分之一的話會增加兩百五十億位的保障名額這是代表的部分因為保障名額的算法應該就是反正你每三個就是一個其實就是這樣就是把總席次除以三的概念應該是這樣的概念對不對現行狀況是除以四婦女保障救治的情況之下那如果你變成所謂的性別保障名額就除以三 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4427.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4440.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
但是你只知道保障我是覺得你只知道保障名的數量跟實際上的狀況那是另外一回事嘛都還是另外一回事因為這涉及到選區的劃分有些地方不見得是用到保障名的有些會用到 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4443.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4451.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
應該是就是說也不是直接除以3因為現在如果那個地方民代有些人比較少他就只有兩個名額的現在三個現狀就是三個的話會三個都是男生所以我剛剛才會講說有47%的地方那個鄉鎮民代完全沒有女性當選人因為他的名額應該就是只有三人 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4462.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4488.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
對 因為他不在現行的保障範圍之內那這樣子會使得連女性連參選都不參選我同意對 那所以也因為這樣子會有一些影響所以剛剛李博弈提到的那個日出條款就是下下次選舉開始我覺得這樣是對所有的人都是公平的會比較好就是因為下一次選舉就已經是明年了嘛等於是在五年後的選舉開始讓大家有逐步的時間調整面對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4489.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4515.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好 謝謝 歡迎委員各位委員還有要補充的嗎來 請李坤城委員剛剛司長那一講就鄉鎮市民代表多了一倍我們聽起來好像說怎麼會多下那麼多其實你要把這個各個選區對 三個影響那個我覺得要把它講出來我覺得可能內政部再把它做仔細一點才會知道說我們這個條文如果修改之後然後對於這個鄉鎮市民代表的這一個保障大概是怎麼樣因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4516.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4544.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
因為你這樣有些選區比較大的你看應該會增加但是對於一些選區比較小的有些在三人或三人以下的那個情況會完全不一樣這個可能內政部民政事這邊要做更仔細的一個報告給我們所有的委員這樣我們會比較清楚不然一聽這個好像多了很多好那還有沒有什麼不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4546.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4568.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
看起來這一條大家應該都不會反對啦包含行政機關都OK吼部長做最後確認絕對把這個往上走好 張志倫委員就是說剛剛很多我相信很多謝謝主席喔我相信剛剛在座很多委員都有提供出來說因為台灣的這個區域選區的一些問題有些選區它比如說人數很少的問題喔會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4569.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4586.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
但我們都保障女性的參政權利跟男性的參政權利就是說是不是要把這些資料就是說等我們政府單位的時候統整起來說哪些選區未來會影響很多的時候還是要先把這些資料交給我們各個委員讓大家有充分的討論的意見不然的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4588.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4605.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
現在很多選區人很多是有幫助沒錯可是選區人數少的只有三人以下剛剛很多委員都提出來的以下的到底會造成什麼樣的影響其實大家還有應該應該還是需要消化跟討論一下所以我認為說大家是不是可以在等這個資料比較明確了以後比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4605.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4627.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
他是分全台灣哪些選區北會比較多 南比較多 中比較多大家把這個資料大家拿來重新再討論一下了以後我們相信大家都支持各個性別的參政權可是我們需要有一些更明確的資料也讓大家不要說回去的時候很多地方的人會說你們怎麼修這個法令我們都不太清楚可能對我們地方會有一些影響 以上副議長選舉的最後他改變性格或是 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4633.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4657.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們剛剛這邊收集到一個資料每次丟出來討論就好因為我覺得到目前為止大家對方向是贊成的但是在技術上面可以完善完善我們憲法第134條有講各種選舉應規定婦女當選名額其一辦法依法律定之那現在當然其實這個是某些層面是所謂的不合時宜啦但是在客觀的技巧上會不會造成衝突或者是無法執行我們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4662.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4688.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
沒有因為單一性別的概念跟婦女其實不太一樣嘛就剛剛有討論到一下精神上就是保障到有嗎對沒有問題好對啊我們廖三四大家的好朋友說明一下好不好沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4692.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4720.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
因為憲法當時制定的時候不好意思我們聽一下吧沒有用到單一性別這一個概念單一性別是就是時代演進多了新的概念嘛對那你如果文藝解釋當然婦女就是很明確嘛那應該不會有第二種解釋嘛那我們現在單一性別保障是如果從現在的概念是包括男性應該是包括男性嘛女性多的地方就變成男性要保障所以這個因為我不是四線機關我也 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4727.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4743.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
其實我認為沒有違反憲法第一個他只是說有婦女當選的保障但是他沒有限制人數那我們現在的門檻值是三個三個裡面要一定有一個女性以目前來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4743.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4766.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
或者是未來要有兩個是女性一個是男性那表示說無論怎麼樣在鄉鎮世代的這個層級或者是多席次的層級裡面一定會有婦女當選名額那這個並沒有違反憲法上面的主要意旨那我們現在用任意性別的意思是比較符合現在的趨勢因為現在包括CEDAW也好或是包括聯合國他會覺得任意性別就是我保障女性也保障男性 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4767.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4790.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
但是同時並不違反所謂的婦女當選因為他講婦女當選的保障他也沒說名額是多少那我們現在是在地方自助法裡面去規範他名額大概是多少那我們把它寫譬如說四分之一當時會通過也沒有違憲現在是三分之一或是每三人有一人當選其實也沒有違憲的疑慮啦這提供給那個要參事參考好 謝謝部長的說明參事要補充嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4796.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4798.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
沒有好沒關係這個大家想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4800.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4829.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
OK 吳清平委員先舉手先跟他講好待會張宏東找我來好不好針對你說女性的保障我們就三分之一過去是四分之一那我認為四分之一比較合適因為你說沒有女性的參選當然我們要保障那我就想說我們新北就是有我們的在過去代議會都是保障都四分之一嘛那女性的還是很多啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4830.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4845.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那你說要是這一期沒有女性的當然我們都要保障我認為我們是維持現行的法條是比較適合啦這是我本席的建議也不要說把整個台灣都搞亂了謝謝好 請坐 盧哲偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4857.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4875.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
沒有我是要跟各位報告一下我個人認為這個不管三分之一或四分之一不管三分之一或四分之一應該沒有違憲的問題那如果要違憲四分之一就違憲了已經用了那麼多年了我覺得是 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4878.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4896.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
沒關係 這個大家都可以有不同的看法啦但我個人是認為應該不會啦這個大家可以放心啦最後再補充一下這個其實我們這個任意性別三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4897.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4922.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
是比這個 如果按照範圍委員的資料會比現在的四分之一更保障女性因為我們很多的鄉鎮市民的選區因為選制的關係很多女生她根本覺得說我沒有機會選上我根本連選都不敢選所以我們這個下去之後其實是更符合憲法保障這個婦女保障名額我們是更進步四分之一到三分之一所以這沒有違憲的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4933.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4955.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
不是這樣吧等一下好對黃學偉好我再補充一下因為其實憲法的這個意思就是因為過去女性都是弱勢所以在憲法的精神當中它就是要平等嘛所以特別把這個要對女性的保障放進去然後必須要尊重性別平等那我們現在的這個修法其實也是朝向同一個目標我再講一次喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4956.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4962.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
為什麼要修法是因為就上一次的地方選舉的數據來說全國有681個鄉鎮市民代表的選區然後裡面有近47%的選區沒有女性當選零女性當選也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4974.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4986.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
681個選區當中有一半沒有任何女性耶那我們現在修這個法下去不就也是符合憲法的這個宗旨就是要讓女性可以有更多機會參政嗎那當然有一些特別剛剛幾個都會區的立委同事有提到說裡面他們過去可能是女性就比較多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4993.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5013.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那當然這個也可以同時保障到男性那其實在這個數據上來看還是多數是因為女性沒有辦法參政就像剛剛昆城委員說的在很多基層的選舉當中就是因為女性她看到說你這個地方就只有三個永遠都是三個男性那女性連參政的意願然後門檻天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5014.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5039.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
就都存在在那裡他永遠都沒有辦法參政所以我們才會這樣子修這是一個一直都是一個結構性的問題所以我們才會修這個法所以沒有什麼造成社會混亂或者是違憲的問題絕對沒有我們就是要更支持性別平等才修這個法的所以也希望所有的好同事們大家一起來支持讓性別更平等拜託 謝謝好那個巧惠委員先要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5045.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5058.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我剛剛有講到CEDAW現在的條款是希望保障50%原因就是因為我們的全國人口中女性跟男性是1比1 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5059.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5086.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那當年那個憲法是十分之一的時代所以你如果從這個歷史脈絡跟國際趨勢的話我相信不會有一個大法官會說我們現在這個制度是就是傷害婦女參政的它是提升只是它要的是一個性別軍事因為它在都會跟就是鄉鎮造成的效果不一樣那其實是而且那個也只是當選民大家都還是能夠公平的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5087.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5104.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以希望不要因為這樣子召委就是誤導目前這個方向我沒有誤導你不要亂講話我認真講我剛剛在講這段之前我是沒有講我說這個大家都很贊成方向很好但是每一個法條的討論能夠想到什麼事情大家就完備沒有誤導的意思那我收回誤導謝謝好 蔣惠美 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5108.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5123.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
对我也我觉得赵伟刚刚是提供平台让大家讨论了有点资讯了因为我本来发言我就是说我觉得用发言帮我们内政委员会永远的一席那我们的好朋友廖参思说句话我觉得他没有要说这样是违宪的意思对啊没错 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5124.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5143.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
他只是本於他的職位那上台解釋的時候告訴我們說如果憲法是用文藝來解釋的話那當時上面的文字憲法不是不是當時是到現在憲法的本文的文字都還是寫婦女所以我們要調成單一性別的話他提醒我們是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5143.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5161.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
不過我覺得如果以從真的從我的角度我個人的意見的話其實跟剛剛幾位委員是接近的是一致的就是說從文藝上面來講因為憲法的原文也是說因規定婦女當選名額所以不管我們是怎麼個規定法是不是保障其實我們都是一種規定啊我們也沒有超出文藝啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5164.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5187.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
如果從立法精神來講其實我現在就是范允葳剛剛講的我們從歷史脈絡來講當時的立法意旨立憲的意旨就是在保障少數所以我想我們現在用單一性別的這樣的狀況其實也沒有違背所以我想不管是從文藝或者是從立法意旨來講我是支持我們的同事們認為大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5188.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5210.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
这条如果我们叫这些版本改了不会有违宪的问题我支持这一讲好谢谢苏乔惠委员张志伦委员请好谢谢主席我这边有一个想法给大家做参考我觉得就是说因为刚刚提到为什么会就是我们都支持各个性别的参政的权利可是就是因为我们刚刚一直跟大家讲我们台湾有一些选区 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5211.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5230.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就是比較小然後參政人數會比較少那因為講白的就是說每個黨派都會派這個民意代表出來選所以未來可能會有一些壓縮一些選區只能派出男性或女性的候選人的問題所以我覺得女性保障民意我覺得大家都很重視可是如果以單一個小選區來講一定會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5233.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5256.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這個性別參政的一個壓力啊所以是不是說未來這個女性保障名額的時候可以就是把這個選區再擴大因為在人數比較多的部分的時候這個會更公平可是如果在人數選選選舉人數越少的時候會造成一些會造成一些壓縮所以如果說如果人數到達全部total到達一定的人數的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5257.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5284.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
女性的人數到達一定的人數的時候那是不是就是說就是有保障到那個性別可是當如果選區如果說只有兩個人或只有幾個人的時候反而會壓縮一些人的參政的一些想法不好意思對不起那我改 跟大家講三個人的時候會有一些影響所以就是說如果把這個就是說性別的把它可以說是跨選區的說多一點人可以來來討論的時候是不是會變得比較公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5286.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5308.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
這是張委員是不是那張委員你的意思是說三人以下譬如說一人兩人的選區他們百分之五十的女性都不需要有人代表嗎我剛剛跟證我說三個人的時候比如說國民黨過去三個人都是這個男的那國民黨如果兩個當選或民進黨兩個當選的時候另外一個政黨他可能就只能派女性會不會有這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5311.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5322.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
每個政黨都有不同性別的人才可以派出啊那還是要競爭嘛我的意思是說沒錯啦 我說大家都可以競爭啦我的意思說是不是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5327.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5347.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
欸我就說大家都可以考慮啦都可以討論啦所以說是不是說如果以這個整個縣市的女性的比例或男性的比例到達某一個比例的時候就是有保障每一個縣市的人口女性都有一半男性有一半所以你的意思是就是說如果當有這樣的情形的時候我說大家現在可以來討論啦現在就是剛剛說就是小選區喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5350.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5377.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
鄉鎮民代表就是有百分之四十的選區連女性參選都沒有有百分之四十七的選區沒有女性當選人零選區那他們百分之五十的人口的女性所以我的意思是說他是可以跟別的選區合併起來一起看他的意思是說會有現在的男性就沒辦法當選了他還是有機會競爭嘛他如果是那三個人中的前兩名他就有機會當選嘛對不對是第三名 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5386.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5409.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
來這個志文委員這一個問題齁就是給你一個建議就是這個有日出條款齁,就提早栽培女性啦或者是提早栽培另外一個單一性別沒有沒有,就是女性男性都有,未來是女性男性都有可能啦你從五年來栽,栽培啊這樣子也會讓男性競爭更多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5415.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5423.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
來 紅路招委沒完硬獎啊 可以啦差不多 這條差不多了就你收各位吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5425.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5450.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
其實各位大家講的都有道理啦可是我必須要說啦剛剛內政部雖然給我們那些資訊讓大家很多的討論可是有一個東西我們要去思考一下三個人以下的選區有幾個等一下然後咧八個人的選區有幾個十個因為你會受影響就這幾個級距嘛你就這幾個級距嘛其實啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5455.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5482.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
八個也會有因為現在從四分之一到八個這樣子你先聽我講完其實你一般就算議員選區最多也不會超過12個13個其實你真正受影響的人除了代表之外議員受影響的其實沒那麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5483.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5497.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
議員受影響的其實沒那麼大啦頂多是頂多是頂多是九個人的選區會多一個你要九個以上的會多一個或十二個的以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5498.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5527.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
可能會十二十三這附近可能會有但你說議員的選區有那麼多的也比較少其實最主要會受到影響的可能就是代表的選區因為代表的選區很多大概是三個人幾個人的其實大家要朝這個方向去思考我不是說內政部給我們資訊不對但是他那個資訊沒有很很細到讓我們去做一個很充足的一個判斷我的意思是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5530.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5547.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我來補充一下那個張宏祿委員所講的部分剛剛我們那個司長所提的是三人以下選區因為你們這樣給我們問嘛但是我們修法是三人以上保障一人所以我們應該去找出來說目前三個人以上選區的是199 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5550.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5573.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那两个人跟一个人的选区的是一个是188一个是71也就是188个跟71的不在我们现在讨论的范围内没有那个所谓的两个人就一定要有三分之一的保因为没有嘛因为每三人增加一人所以我们才在想说不要写成三分之一是每三人应增加一人的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5573.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5581.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
是在於這邊所以兩人以下的選區跟一人的其實就不在這一次條文的保障之列以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5588.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5616.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那個我再補充說明一下為什麼要把這個拉到後面因為那個我們同條地方制度法第45條裡面有講那個宣誓就職的規定宣誓就職的規定有援引33條第7項所以你如果沒有調你這樣就我把那個宣誓的相關規則還是留在第7項所以把這個往後調這樣你就不用再修45條好不好是因為這樣子的一個原因而針對這樣的內容目前基本上我們在這個方向達成共識請問各位有沒有問題沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5617.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5617.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5626.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5655.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
等一下等一下等一下圈圈圈對啊對啊對啊日出 我再重新圈圈一下日出條款就是2030年嘛119年 OK有沒有問題對 我覺得這合理啦好不好 那既然有這樣非常有可能有這樣一個修正的方向也就請各黨今天在這邊的代表就把相關資訊帶去各黨黨團因為這跟各黨選舉布局是有關係的要栽培不同性別的人才這本來就是大家樂見的 OK好那我們就往這個方向我們就以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5657.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5679.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
沒有 這個就變成委員會嘛 委員會的現在就委員會的版本嘛 我們就留著以這個為來 有人要補充嗎跟委員報告 如果現在的33條第7項變成33條第8項那會連動到一些線型條文引到33條第7項的那個項次也要並同去做修正 譬如說45條的對啊 我調完之後它就是留在第7項啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5682.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5687.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
沒關係 你一樣做一下統整 因為地方制度法是一部大的法所以很多確實會有連動的問題啊對啦 那個幕僚作業去處理就好了 我們不用這裡處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5725.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5738.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
33條我們現在就委員會版本像這樣好不好 OK謝謝原則上我們就這樣子好不好好 因為還有很多不同委員提不同的方向我們繼續往下走 可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5743.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5744.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
這個武力華委員提52條有沒有要幫他帶回說明這個是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5764.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5776.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個因公死亡撫恤但內政部好像有說明過嘛就是說現在有有保險嘛對不對所以修了之後沒有修之後有沒有些具體的差別現在的範圍有沒有到沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5792.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5809.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
55條有關於副市長上次有進行初步的討論那這部分我們再請內政部做一下說明可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5826.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5838.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我現在這邊收到的是說有做就是台北市、桃園市支持嘛其他六都其他沒有意見嘛之前我們在質詢、詢答的這些結果那時候開會的結果是這樣嘛我們跟部長再次做一下確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5844.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5866.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
有關五十五條 因為我剛有特別提到像那個邱振軍委員雖然有同樣的條文但是他也提到說其他的縣市在第二位副縣長裡面他也提出來就是說要保障那我們認為說這樣的姿勢體大而且目前為止在行政法律上面好像一致性不是太齊全 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5867.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5890.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
所謂的一致性不太齊全就是說我們目前的這個第二位或是第三位副市長是以人口的比例來做修正的那現在因為有首都條款的方式要把它列為是第三位副市長那這樣子對於其他不是首都或是其他非直轄市的縣市來講的話就是所謂的直轄縣市來講的話其實也不盡公平但是最後還是要看委員會這邊怎麼討論 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5895.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5904.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
部長我覺得這不算是首都條款啦因為這個本來就是六都都有嘛六都一體適用啦那再來就是我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5905.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5933.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
對 按照整個比法 我知道但我的意思是講因為現在之所以要調整這個我也支持比如說包含縣市首長什麼的一起做檢討原因是這樣嘛因為我們已經通過財政收支劃分法未來在市權分配的角度上面來講地方的事務一定會變得比較繁重所以我是覺得本來就順應這樣的市權的調整增補人力我認為是有必要啦我認為是有必要那至於就是說這個細節來講要用什麼樣的標準來做增加我們聽一聽各委員的意見好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5937.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5959.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
來 大家針對55條有想法嗎來 張宏祿稍微請來 我想先請問一下內政部各縣市不管合併升格或直接升格他們升格之後他們多的公務人員到底有多了多少人比例大概多了多少你們手頭上有這個資料嗎原額的編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5966.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5989.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
原來是人種在控管我知道是人種啦,我剛是說請問你們我已經說請問你們有沒有資料了啊目前手上沒有目前手上沒有不是就是生殼不是不是,他生殼之後,人一定增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5992.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6013.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以 人總今天有人來嗎 人總來 請說明好 我們聽一下人事情人總是說明一下好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6019.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6039.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
是有關我們那個人總的部分是就是有關編制元額的管理啊那編制元額的話就是目前的話以地質法因為主管機關在內政部這邊那目前的話編制元額我們就是用當時那個地質法是88年修正的所以說編制元額目前的情況的話直轄市有五個級距 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6040.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6058.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那縣市政府的話是沒有用人口數的級距然後是用那個前一年87年的一個數字然後再加上一次性的一個分配計算然後再加上88年7月1號的一個編制數做一個一次性分配所以也就是說直轄市它有五個級距然後在法規目前上是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6059.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6075.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
因為人口的差別然後如果有晉升成直轄市的時候依人口數會有不同的編制數但是縣市政府目前沒有這樣的一個人口數的急遽的規範是用88年當年的一個數字做一個計算基準以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6079.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6101.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好 請問這樣有回答到趙偉的問題嗎對 所以你看所有的升格為直轄市或直轄市他的公務人員他還是依照人口數去核定他的公務人員的數目大概他剛剛人事總署的回答就是這樣所以一個直轄市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6102.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6127.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
公務人員有多少也是依據他服務的人口有多少去做的這個是一個我們設置這一個直轄市尤其是直轄市他的所有的公務人員該有多少人這是一個最基本也是最重要的原則這是基本的原則啦我剛剛問這個問題就是想要跟各位委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6128.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6143.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
不管一個直轄市要設多少的人員都是用人口去做他的一個基準的好 還有委員有想法嗎我們提案 李燕秀委員要不要補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6144.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6163.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我跟大家報告一下說明一下我的第55條跟56條的精神在於現在全世界各國但是特別台灣我們大家都知道人口的負成長的狀況是會持續的但是我們的地方自治的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6163.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6173.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
越來越多無論是面對極端氣候或者我們現在行政部門正在編的國土韌性不管他人口是260萬270萬或他只有150萬只要中央一個口令說我們要推國土韌性我們要推減量減碳 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6181.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6199.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
一個政策下去它不管有多少地方自治事項事實上是越來越多不會因為它的人口少所以它就不用做那另外除了人口數之外其實我覺得就是說整個地方自治的值的部分我們如何把它做得更好是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6200.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6219.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那我提這個案子其實無論是當時我們250萬直轄市250萬能增設第三個副市長當時只有台南市沒有辦法達標但是我們現在看人口數來看的話六都只有新北台中高雄有超過250萬那如果依現在人口的副成長未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6221.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6240.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
恐怕要達到增設第三位副市長恐怕很多縣市都沒有辦法達標那另外就是說增設一位副市長會增加多少的預算數不是因為說增設一個副市長他連他可能有幾十個秘書也沒有等一下我可能請行政部門回應我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6241.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6258.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
會因為曾社副市長而增加多少的預算數嗎這是第二點 第三我們現在地方知識事項越來越多跨行政 工程 公務 警察 文化 教育這個領域事實上是非常的廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6259.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6283.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那所以我覺得如果在專業分工的部分我們可以分得更完整對於全國各縣市地方自治的事項無論是配合中央或者是服務地方我覺得會不會做得更完整這個是我在第55條跟第56條我提出來修正案重要的意義跟他的精神在裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6284.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6306.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那希望各委員其實藍綠各縣市都有而且這是面臨現在未來全國人口負成長未來的趨勢其實恐怕無論是直轄市的第三位副市長恐怕以後都沒有機會增設第二非直轄市恐怕達120萬人口也可能越來越少增加的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6307.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6337.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
其实不多不会因为增加一个副市长而他连带有好几十个秘书也没有但是我们地方知识事项从中央配合极端气候厂照政策国土韧性这些专业的事项可能越来越多增设一个副市长在跨领域专业分工可不可以做得更好这三项是我主要提55条跟56条重要的精神跟目标在希望各位委员有机会可以支持谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6342.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6362.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
我覺得地方制度法其實跟財政收支劃分法這個是必須要合併一起討論的啦當然我們財劃法裡面當高雄一直在喊叫面積人口的時候沒有人要聽然後現在就要來跟我們說台北市人口老化等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6363.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6389.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我覺得這個是一致的必須要一併來討論的當初沒有被尊重到的一些直轄市跟現在又要讀後首都的這個法條的討論我還是覺得以全國這樣子以自信來講的話很難不讓人家聯想到這是專門只為了台北市而且還是只為了台北市的某一個副市長想要參選的一個條款啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6391.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6405.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以內政委會這麼認真嚴肅要討論整個地方制度法的時候那去扯一個可能是為了選舉量身訂做的法案我在這邊提出希望大家多三思啦 謝謝我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6409.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6426.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
現在按照法條的內容來調整來處理到沒有讀後哪一線是問題因為如果按照院學委員提的版本只要是副市長三人台北市、桃園市、台南台中應該都會提按照法條來講是這樣子啦台南市並沒有提出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6426.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6448.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那台北市的委員來提出來所以我們很容易聯想這是為了台北市來提的啦我覺得比較我們是全國的立法委員未來這個法條其實會適用到很多各縣市而且現在人口負成長未來大家都面臨得到重點是如何把事情做得更好地方自治事項做得更好是我提案的精神 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6449.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6472.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那個我先補充說明一下我們待會請王議長委員發言就是說我當初在質詢這個題目的時候我的概念是這樣就是說以桃園為例啦就我們的副市長工作其實就是督導各局處啦那我相信在其他的地方政府也一樣但現在不管大家的人口是成長的趨勢或者是下降的趨勢其實很多局處大概都是盡量滿邊嘛因為地方事項繁雜然後也多嘛那 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6474.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6499.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
加上財化法修正之後其實地方的事情會更多那更多的時候其實是增加人力讓督導的品質變好我覺得方向上是這樣所以我個人是蠻贊成說增加相關的員額啦好不好好這我補充一下說明來我們請王一川委員好這議員外界質疑這叫李四川條款大家都說他保守什麼叫首都條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6500.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6505.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
既然李四川這樣,我是建議這樣啦建議這種在民國幾年來實施啊這樣就叫李四川沒關係國民黨如果這樣說下去,事情就解決了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6511.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6527.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
對 國民黨也說這叫李四川什麼關的 沒關的啦沒關的就看是後排跟實施 下一屆開始實施這樣也寫得出來 下下屆2030啦 加加多一條一樣2030啦這樣給我們解決疑慮啦 這樣疑慮才可以解決不然一直都說李四川條款對李四川也不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6538.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6556.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
不然他也可以做台北市副市長 選新北市的市長 這樣也可以腳踏兩條船這樣也可以 不然這樣一般人也沒有在這裡 大家說他在說首都條款 說到影匯這個在四川條款 有人在保護他 所以下下介再實施 看要怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6559.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6579.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
來 請李修緯謝謝感謝王委員但是我想我們都很多事情都太政治化來看但是我要提的是全國的市民在等市政的推動我們所有的東西都要等下下屆都要壓一個這個太政治化的東西而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6583.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6604.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
台北市現在是三位副市長但是不是直轄市我這次的修法其實包括非直轄市的部分我的人口數也有放寬現在是很多沒有達到第二位未來馬上就可以第二位副市長也可以把縣政的工作做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6604.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6622.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
更何況我一直在強調地方自治法其實現在很多縣市的地方的業務也越來越多我剛才強調的包括行政部門在推的什麼國土韌性啦極端氣候啦減碳啦強照其實事務也都越來越多非直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6624.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6646.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
可以偵涉第二位副市長而不受到人口的限制我相信也會是所有其他非直轄市的福音所以我覺得請各位委員是不是可以去思考我的版本不是只有針對直轄市以上 謝謝好 我們待會要接著討論一般的縣市嘛好不好就一樣我們時間抓一下來 張宏祿早委有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6647.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6675.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我覺得好像每個人講的都有他的道理存在但我們想一想以前沒有副市長的時候這些都在幹什麼以前沒有副市長的時候政務都沒有推動嗎因為以前市長比較強以前市長比較強我覺得不能這樣講以前全台灣每個縣市每個直轄市也都沒有副市長那他的政務怎麼推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6676.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6704.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
他都沒有嗎?我講這個齁我講這一個是說要讓大家去思考一下這一個東西是可以討論的但就像剛剛李博議員講的你這個討論其實我認為要討論要三個法一起討論地方制度法、財化法跟行政區劃法三個一起去討論然後你才可以去徹底解決這個問題而不是說你用一個理由好像說啊事情沒有辦法做我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6706.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6729.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我認為啦在一個龐大的市政府裡面其實不缺一個兩個副市長那如果要這樣講我們新北市人口400萬那為什麼你不多給我們幾個我跟你講以我們新北市的立委來講如果你通過這個法案那我們新北咧我們新北是矮的你等嗎 低的你等嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6732.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6753.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
所以我覺得這一個東西我們必須要全盤的去看啦而不是這樣子看我真的覺得立法還是要有它的品質在跟它的原則在我們立法的品質還是要顧到啦好 謝謝張榮哲我們請蘇小霍委員然後徐新偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6759.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6783.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好 謝謝謝謝主席這個因為我這個做人做事一向坦蕩蕩公開啦所以大家也知道我現在確實是有報名下一場比賽所以我本來想說涉及事務的話就不要發言這樣比較公平公正因為剛剛這個王玉川委員講到的時候我想說涉及事務就不要發言可是張文烏委員說到新北市的市政的時候我又覺得不行我一定要替新北市講兩句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6785.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6811.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那我覺得是這樣就是確實我們這次從修法以來大家都各個委員提出版本我們都尊重從這一屆以來不管是裁劃法或者是任何其他的法律但是我們必須說你看到問題要提出解方這個我們都尊重可是你這個解方是不是能夠適用到全國然後到各個情況都能夠公平使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6812.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6826.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
適用這就是問題的所在然後它的配套到底有沒有已經完備這部所謂的新法就實施上路這也才是更大的問題像財政收支劃分法就是一個很明顯的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6827.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6834.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
因為各個地方政府誰不想要錢多我們當然也想要錢多一點新北市當然想要多一點錢但是問題是你的中央後面的錢和權跟地方重新怎麼劃分到底最後我們的總數是多少這如果沒有講到好還有為什麼每個比例的縣市是這樣為什麼花蓮可以增加這麼多新北才增加這樣按比例來說為什麼是這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6851.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6874.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這我們也想要知道啊所以這樣的狀況我們就覺得對才化法當時我們是很保留的嘛好那你現在說才化法現在到地方制度法的這個副市長副市長職位當然我們也覺得現在事務繁多能夠有更多的優秀人才為地方服務都是好事那麼現在我們有這個版本大家在討論的時候本來內政部並沒有覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6875.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6899.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
要由這個修法今天李委員提的這個版本內政部持保留的態度那我們是不是就一定要看為什麼是250萬人的時候徵社一席那確實就是如同張宏立委員說的嘛如果我們是因為事務繁雜以至於在250萬的時候又畫了一個新的界線變成三人那麼我們新北市現在真的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6900.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6905.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
超過400萬人啦 足足比250萬人又多了150萬人欸那我們是不是應該增加第四席 甚至是第五席到底每增設一席的集聚在哪裡 我們要不要也一併討論對啊 那如果這樣大家都講到講到鐵 好啊 這樣就來啊 對不對所以我本席提出這樣的意見 把全套一起想好 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6927.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6933.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
謝謝主席剛剛大家就打開潘朵拉的盒子那這個條款就是李時春條款吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6933.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6959.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為現在台北市人口的確是不到250萬那這個台北市人口減少但是我們新北市人口是增加的所以說今天如果說台北市沒有達到這個基準那本來就應該降成兩席所以你可以說他是李四川條款我也可以說是蔣萬恩條款你市場強的話你兩個副市長也是可以做得很好那為什麼說一定要保留到這個第三席這個你人口數不到然後你就硬要保留到第三席 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6959.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6981.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以就是說這個市長是比較弱一定要有三個副市長要來扶持他才有辦法做那如果現在不修這個法的話那到底對於現狀會有什麼樣的影響我覺得也沒有什麼影響影響不大那如果說真的硬要說這個因為這個不管是李四川或是蔣灣硬要修這個條款的話我覺得是因人設施這個比較不適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6985.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7001.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
好謝謝學信委員謝謝我想今天討論這個我也非常認同前面各位委員的這個意見也尊重那但是就是說譬如說我們看直轄市或非直轄市直轄市的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7003.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7022.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
250萬人他這個少一點多一點都在250萬上下那當然我第一個我是想提出就是說我們也不要太標籤化今天即便不是李四川假設是一個李五川他當這個台北市的副市長那台北市的人口這樣上上下下在250萬的這種這個附近上下徘徊的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7029.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7048.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
今天也不是說市長的能力怎麼樣而是說今天我們多一位副市長或是副縣長來相助讓市政或縣政可以推動得更好我們的思考是這樣然後再來就是社會的變遷我想這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7049.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7073.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
上一個會期我們在討論的時候除了人口數之外社會的變遷社會的情況我想大家應該也認同我們現在雖然智慧型手機出來十幾年前沒有智慧型手機可是智慧型手機出來好像也沒有特別清閒還反而特別忙碌所以社會的變遷包括我們警察老師現在都不好當所以我們站在這個隨著社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7075.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7075.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
人口比250萬還多這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7093.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7121.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
支持我們一併討論就是說我們看把人口集聚也弄出來然後另外縣市的話我想上次王美惠委員也有提未來你也可能是我們的也有可能是縣市長所以是不是一個縣市也可以有兩席的副市長或副縣長那其實也是因應社會的變遷那在這邊我個人提一個我在第八屆的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7122.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7148.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我一個人一個立委我的選民數有五十幾萬那時候南投兩席立委加起來都沒有我的多所以我覺得這個有的時候很難就是說人口在成長你來不及修法那當然有一些人他就承擔了但是我們如果法律完備然後再來就是其實多一席對整個財政負擔也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7148.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7172.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
影響但是呢可以讓市政縣政尤其剛剛我看到有的也提到有的面積比較大的那所以我們我是支持啦直轄市那可以最少三位那人口討論一下人口更多的我們集聚要怎麼樣來增加然後縣市的話能夠有兩位副市長或副縣長謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7174.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7197.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
好 謝謝徐欣英委員其實我剛剛非常高興我們張榮宇召委跟蘇小委員都有提到新北的問題嘛我們就討論這個事情不是一人涉世反而是就借這樣的機會一併來思考嘛一併來思考我相信未來地方政府的工作不管是直轄市或者是縣市政府一定是變比現在繁重這是確定的人口可能會變少因為少子化沒辦法但工作會繁重確定因為財化法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7198.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7218.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
所以我是覺得我是非常贊成都增加你說新北市要不要四個副市長我認為我都覺得很合理因為事實上你認真講台灣新北市的服務員跟這樣的人口數大概只有新北市會這樣我們如果真的有這樣子的一個條款我也不會認為它是所謂的新北條款因為本來就是要解決共同的問題所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7221.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7227.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
現在看起來兩邊共識是比較有限有限但是我覺得沒關係大家還沒有什麼意見要來做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7228.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7258.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
在我們往下走之前直轄市的部分大家都我覺得大家都已經大家都已經立場都表達得很清楚了嘛對不對我覺得新北市尤其是新北市的委員不管黨派啦都可以思考一下如果說按照工作量繁重等等加起來新北市要有一個怎麼樣的版本對新北市發展有利我覺得大家可以思考一下如果可以收束版本是最好不同的話我也鼓勵大家提出這個不一樣的版本直轄市市長的人數副市長的人數那縣市的部分大家有沒有想法有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7260.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7271.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
56條好 李博人我覺得那個剛剛主席講的那個我繞回來再講55條 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7273.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7291.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
今天是在討論台北市那個副市長辭掉以後要不要讓他補要用法制化來讓台北市補要變成有三個副市長結果你現在講一講講到說好那我們從三個開始加全部的職牙師從三個開始加來看新北面積多大要加幾個人口多少要加幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7292.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7316.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
高雄你人口這樣那你面積多大有沒有資格加我覺得又破壞了原本的討論是不是再收回來收束一下來討論說人口急劇以及這個地方制度法其實跟財政收支劃分法當時的審法當時的審法把整個人口擺為重點把整個面積全部忽視造成高雄的極度不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7318.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7343.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
你現在這個只要用人口或者是要用往上加的話這一個會議就只是在增加全台灣所有縣市直轄市要增加幾個副市長縣市要增加幾個副縣長我覺得這樣很奇怪啦跟我們的地方制度法以及現在的這個財政收支劃分法已經劃下去的都是一個很奇怪的修法提供給各位做參考好 請徐信委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7347.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7352.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
不好意思 我想我們今天討論地方制度法財政收支劃分法也不是在內政委員討論當初是在財政委員會討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7357.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7379.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那但是就是說地方制度法我們現在針對的是整個我們這個第55條56條副市長或是副縣長這個非直轄市的副市長副縣長的討論所以是不是有必要把財政收支化分法一起拉進來這點我覺得我們也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7380.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7406.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
再思考一下因为这个部分的讨论跟财政财政送资划分法确实它是一个非常大而且也比较复杂的但是这跟我们副市长或副县长这个应该是可以不必一并讨论那再来本席最后也强调就是说我们在讨论法条的时候其实真的也不要太过度解读真的不是说特别针对谁当然你要这样讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7407.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7435.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
那当时任职在那个位置上的那当然他这个没办法他就只能承担了但是我们还是希望能够比较理性然后平和的来看待直辖市跟非直辖市因应现在社会的整个的变化那我相信我们今天在座的委员未来也都很有可能会是直辖市的市长或是非直辖市的县市长 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7436.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7463.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以我們這個大家可以聚焦一點討論就是增加一位副市長或是副縣長這個對於整個會有什麼衝擊如果沒有但是面對現在的現況其實是真的可以相助到行政首長這一塊我本席再次說明 謝謝好 謝謝針對縣市的副縣長或副市長的人數大家有沒有想法跟意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7470.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7489.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好我覺得大家意見表達的差不多了雖然這一條的共識比較有限但沒關係我們就先hold著我們先保留那一樣就是各行各派我是覺得把這個相關的意見做一個整合跟收束啦形成統一的版本嘛我們再進到下一個階段我認為會是比較妥適的好不好那我們今天不耽誤大家的時間我們繼續往下走OK好61條這個是村里長的撫恤金按照剛剛的我們就不處理可以嗎還是有沒有代理要說明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7500.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7523.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
沒有 不處理 我們就不許處理78條 我們李昆城委員提的所謂的停發諷解來 李昆城委員 你要說明一下嗎因為我們現在地方制度法第78條有規定就是說民選首長有重大刑案被起訴那應該停職但是停職的新諷諷解是否有發放沒有明確的規定所以會有標準不一的一個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7524.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7539.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
然後現在是按照這個如果說你選首長停職的話停職期間是否發給半封是按照這個行政院人事行政總署的一個規定那是由目前是由這個等於是由內政部來決定說那是不是發給這個半封 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7541.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7568.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那我是覺得說我的這個修法是明確增訂在停職期間同時停止發給諷刺的規定那一方面防止這個公帑資源遭到濫用那一方面保持這個確保制度公平的一致性免除外界對於雙重標準的疑慮那這個目前也有這個兩位遭停職的這個縣市長那內政部也表示說為了貫徹政府掃除貪污建立年齡政治決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7568.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7591.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
因此決定停職期間不合給半數的這個縫額那我是覺得說這個我們就也不是說這一個特別針對誰那我是覺得說我們是不是我們把這個規定把這個制度把它明確化就直接在我們這個地方制度法的第78條裡面就很明確規定你只要是民選的首長這個遭到停職我們這個新縫就停止這個發給這以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7596.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7610.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我們行政單位有沒有要補充說明的好 請人事行政總署可以說明一下嗎針對這個條文放在這個地方是不是和一些內容文字的有沒有必要修正請做一下補充說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7613.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7635.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
人事總署這邊說明那因為我們今天這一塊的這個諷刑法是我們給予處的這個業務那所以有關這個之前這個函式的部分我們能夠代為說明的部分就是說這個是由那個主管機關那個地制法的主管機關內政部去決定說是不是去做後續那我們尊重內政部的一個處理這樣 以上請國務部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7640.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7642.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那個縫擠的部分 村里長會不會衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7663.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7689.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
對啊 因為你寫村里長嘛 然後停發鳳擠因為鳳擠好像是村里長是叫做那叫服務費嘛 對不對那其實不是鳳擠對不對村里長就是無擠職啦他是無擠職啊 這可以修正啦我們就在討論的過程中來做一下好 針對這一條大家還有沒有什麼要補充的那文字上要不要做一下修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7692.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7716.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
你是要改縫擠還是把村里長拿掉嗎?大概是這樣吧,因為這兩個...村里長拿掉,有噴水的意思因為對村里長沒有縫擠但如果真的發生這樣的狀況的時候,他的機制是什麼?對啊,因為你村里長還...對,他會不會就沒有停職的問題了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7733.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7744.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那個民政說明一下好不好村里長的部分因為他不叫鳳姐他就叫什麼來來你那個要說明一下有過事務補助費事務補助費嗎鳳姐或事務補助費 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7748.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7760.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那現在是叫事務的補助費那把它改成事務的補助費好了這個是村里長的 或停發奉集或事務補助費 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7791.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7799.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
可以嗎 針對這樣子的法條修正文字 請問大家有沒有意見來 巧惠委員看一下 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7806.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7821.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我們部長說一樣我們要請教我們的老朋友防護廖強憲戰士看一下這個部分好不好文資修正給我們一點意見謝謝對就是現在這樣子如果法條是這樣寫的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7829.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7850.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
因為村里長的那個費用他有他的專用名詞就是事務補助費那不好意思公務員就是一般的諷刑那現在因為原來昆城委員的版本是因為停發諷刑所以下面對應的是公務人員諷刑法第21條那我們現在加了一個事務補助費他對應的法條的部分有需要再增加嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7853.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7867.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
請教一下主管機關的是目前村里長他領事務補助費有沒有另外像公務員就是這種停職職務的時候他也有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7870.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7891.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
領一半的這種規定如果有的話才需要再加進去如果是完全沒有因為公務員目前有奉集法21條的適用所以他必須要特別在這個地方把它排除掉那我不知道村里長目前目前他的事務輔助會有沒有這一類的規定如果有的話才建議把它加上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7893.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7914.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
來 民政司那個村里長如果停職的話他失誤補助費是讓代理人來領這個失誤補助費所以其實並沒有其他相關的一個規定要做處理代理就是通常代理就是你幹事或者是什麼去代理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7920.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7942.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
巧合委員的意思是他如果已經停職了就一定就不會發補助費了嗎因為補助費是給代理的人嘛對那這樣的話我們還要寫嗎因為剛剛我們是認為他會領嘛所以我們要不要讓他領到嘛所以我們在這裡的時候說把事務補助費停掉可是你現在告訴我的是說村里里長的部分如果被停職是直接會指派代理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7943.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7970.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
而且事務補助費是直接就給這個代理人了那這樣我們還需要在這裡停發事務補助費嗎因為這樣反而會讓那個代理的里長沒有事務補助費用喔是這個意思吧也不是啦但應該說這樣寫就是有寫跟沒有寫可能效果是一樣的因為事實上停職就不會發嘛所以你有沒有寫他都不會發給那個被停職的人而是會發給那個代理的人這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7987.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7999.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
請主管機關確認的是說村里長他停止職務的時候他有沒有特別的規定類似公務人員奉集法就是他可以領一半的這種規定那如果沒有的話就不需要因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8000.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8022.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
另外代理人那是給代理人的補助費嘛那不是村里長自己個人的補助費所以應該是如果是他沒有類似公務人員奉集法21條的這種規定那就不需要再特別增列上去因為他就是停止停發而已所以其實就是沒有其實沒有必要寫嘛是這樣意思是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8029.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8056.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
村里長要停職務啊他要停職務他的職務被停了他的職務停了以後才產生了代理人嘛那依照現行的規定就是只要代理人一出來這個事務補助費是直接移轉到代理人身上的啊對不對所以我們本來就所以我們在這裡反而不應該把它停發對啊因為我們現在的狀況我們現在如果按照我們新修的狀況是停止職務及停發奉給 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8058.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8072.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
或 事務補助費呢那個或字是鳳幾或事務補助費動詞是停發啊你現在如果把它加上去我們本來以為是他有發啊啊你這樣寫了停發以後反而代理人會領不到耶是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8078.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8100.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
也不是啦 因為我們這個是針對被停職的人啦應該是針對被停職的人 不會針對到說那個GT的人的這個不管是事務補給費因為就算現在有那個代理的這個縣市長這個副市長來代理 他本來就也是有薪水啊我們只是說停職的那個人 我們不給奉給或是說事務補給費啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8105.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8123.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
那只是說因為現在這個我們鳳擠這個有沒有停發沒有一個明確的標準規定我這樣聽我這樣聽是說事務補助費只要是村里長他只要有被停止就沒了就沒了就沒了就沒了那所以說那所以那這個寫有沒有關係啦對其實沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8127.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8148.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那你還有堅持要寫嗎 還是就不寫沒有啊 我是看大家的討論 主要是就是說這個用意在於說只要是停職就沒有領薪水啦那怎麼寫會比較這個合乎法規的 大家討論一下但是你寫前面有里長 後面不曉得怪怪的 會不會這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8150.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8172.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
沒關係 去思考一下如果寫的也沒有影響因為上面還有村里長如果把它寫上去也沒有受到影響的話那就把它補上去好 另外我要提醒一下我剛剛有查到一個因為我特別去看了一下公務人員風級法第21條規定所以我建議我們委員會要達成你要把21條改成21條一項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8174.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8197.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為二十一條第一項是講說你如果有狀況我是本來要發半封嘛但因為你現在要從嚴處理嘛所以不能讓他領半封要全部拿掉可是二十一條的二項三項是萬一最後還他清白你要補給他喔那本來就應該補給他可是你如果不適用這個的話那通通都沒有了你會連個補的都沒有所以我是覺得把二十一條一項把它寫清楚來好不好這 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8203.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8221.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
對 你們確認一下好不好沒關係 來 李培委員我請問一下民政司齁 這個事務補助費我們其實定義它不是 它應該不是算縫集對不對不算縫集 對那我們現在討論的是縫集要停對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8223.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8250.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
那所以如果依照這個邏輯來講的話如果村里長被停職 因為他們被停職的話他也不會領到這個私務補助費對不對那所以依據這三個脈絡來講的話我是建議說這個私務補助費就不要寫進去會比較合理啦對 因為你上面有村里長 現在沒有也蠻奇怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8254.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8255.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
好 沒關係啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8265.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8283.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我的原來版本是因為內政部說因為還有村里長在上面啦那所以說村里長他不是奉旗嘛他是失誤補助費那如果說加了或失誤補助費也沒有影響的話那我覺得讓整個法條看起來更完整我是覺得加上去也可以啦那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8297.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8319.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
給代理里長啦 對啊其實因為我們是針對被停職的人啦好 民政司補充應該不是說轉移啦 而是說實際執行這個村裡服務的這個人的補助費是這個服務村裡的一個事務的一個相關的費用誰來執行就是誰來做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8325.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8337.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
好 那如果條文照這樣子 還有問題嗎對 那個奉集法的部分 任總做最後一次的補充好不好我們差不多要有個結論 我們要往下走我們原住民委員等很久了 所以我也不太好意思了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8351.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8373.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
跟委員報告一下我這邊是詮釋部那剛剛提到的那個諷刑法部分因為其實我們諷刑法適用對象是定有關職等的公務人員所以其實村里長還有這個民選首長的部分其實他不是我們諷刑法適用對象那這可能就要回歸到內政部的跟人總或者是相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8376.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8386.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那沒有 如果他的意思是講完全跟奉行法無關意思是根本不用寫嘛對不對 不用寫 是不適用的問題嘛你的意思是這樣子嗎他不是我們奉行法的適用對象 對對對 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8392.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8415.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
好 越來越複雜了 大家頭很痛了我建議這樣子啊 來 我跟委會報告一下跟聯席委會報告一下這個 不管 我們現在有幾個爭點嘛針對這一條 譬如說諷刺 還有村里長的部分然後是不是用公務人員諷刺法那大概都還有一些發散跟一些需要思考的地方所以我建議我們這條我們就擱著好不好因為我講我們今天沒有急著要下結論我們下一次開會的時候再來處理好不好 昆城委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8417.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8441.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我的意思是說如果大家有這個共識就是停職就是不拿薪水那如果有這個共識的話那如果這樣子是他沒有適用這一個公務人員的諷刑法那我們就把它拿掉我們就把它拿掉因為就是說我們就是到前面停止其職務或是停發諷刑或事務補助費這樣就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8442.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8460.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
但如果有公務員身份的我們是講那個市的首長現在都是民選的啊因為這是地方制度法的修正所以如果你那個什麼公務員懲戒法跟公務員奉勸不要寫就是獲事務補助費後面就寫復職後也不補發這樣就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8464.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8489.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
因為那裡面很多有些不是公務人員就是民選的跟一般公務人員要有那個懲戒法或者是公務人員諷刑法的那個規範的範圍還是有一點不太完全一樣也就是說不要寫懲戒法也不要寫那個諷刑法就是就是復職後也不補發對啊會有復職後的問題我覺得有復職後的問題我們現在在處理是復職後的問題如果解職的話是全部都沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8490.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8498.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
對 所以越來越複雜了嘛 好不好沒關係 我們各自待會去稍微做一下研究我覺得方向上大家不反對就是把這個懲戒條款增加嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8500.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8521.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
沒有 因為其實如果他復職了其實我是同意他可以拿回他的薪水對 你就變成要另外再加條文如果你不這樣寫的話那狀況會是這樣那所以我的意思是說我們只是處理到他停職的這個部分停職的部分我們就是不發給他的薪水因為目前沒有這個標準嘛那我就把它明確化 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8524.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8538.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們是不是可以收束一下然後我覺得你要下一次我也沒有意見我們現在狀況就是說除了原本的停職之外我們要讓停止鳳擊的部分不發給這個薪水不發薪水給他這件事情要明確化所以我們就寫了停發鳳擊這個部分但我們第一個爭點一是因為有村里長所以事務補助費要不要寫上去這是第一個那會牽涉到的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8552.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8575.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
事務補助費到底寫上去比較明確呢還是寫上去反而會造成代理人領不到這樣的文藝這是第一個這是增點一啦增點一剛剛這樣的狀況嘛那增點二的話是因為要講這件事情所以下面要引用的法條這個不適用的部分呢除了懲戒法之外要不要是公務人員奉集法 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8576.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8603.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
第一項或者是全條文甚至是還有沒有其他的條文要引用的這個是增點二嘛然後增點三現在復職後如果這個停職就是判決之後他無罪了嘛那在這樣的狀況下那他可以復職那甚至是要是時間已經過了呢他那個任期民選的部分任期已經過了呢那要不要把他當時沒有在職的那一段時間的薪水奉給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8604.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8622.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這樣有三個爭點那是不是請內政部可以就這部分直接提出對啦我覺得可以思考一下不是啦就是下一次還有權序還有權序好不好這樣所以這點我們就先保留好不好就是請各委員彼此之間串一下就把它變成流暢可行然後大家都可以可以的版本嘛總是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8625.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8645.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
對嘛就基本的這個所以那個也請我們相關的行政機關跟我們提案委員這邊來做一下清楚的溝通跟說明然後整合出可以的版本好不好那我們這點我們先保留好我們接下來進83條但不管怎麼樣我們先休息一下好不好喘口氣喘口氣休息五分鐘大家上上廁所11點回來這邊我們做83條的討論好先來休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8651.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8656.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
你為什麼那麼高啊?因為我拉到最高小朋友什麼時候這麼大塊了我想說為什麼每次到最低的位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8677.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8680.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
高起來了耶我發現你每次站那個板子都站很高就是那個呈現很... |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8703.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8718.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
那個麥克風會擋到我就是 這裡每次看到麥克風那個是不太自然的跟我們平常的溝通我一直想說 麥克風還有這些就是財政的因為之後也是一些財政的部分那就都把它保留起來這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8735.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8751.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們來到台南的左製手工餐廳想要視乎這間餐廳財政沒有自廣的樣子所以就會變成這樣謝謝不是完全靠我們那種認識正面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8765.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8765.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
謝謝你不好意思講 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8799.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8816.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那是... |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8821.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8821.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8843.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8853.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
先不要讲谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8868.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8872.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
可是43號沒有提供口號 因為3號是口號 然後4號是 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8877.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8884.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以我們才必須要所以我們才所以我們才必須要不要說白了 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8901.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8912.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
你看 我們的第一項目就是實施手續的傳染藥物防疫科技消息這是它的版本 這是原版的版本原版 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8925.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8951.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
請問一下 要維持改制前的三峰下山嗎這已經很清楚 但是後面再有恰桑 回到後面再有恰桑這在恰桑嗎 如果還要回到恰桑就沒有問題好 你們再溝通一下都可以 好不好 就這樣比較快 待會反而比較快我們再談一會好 你們說恰桑不要進入恰桑的下山 原因是 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8953.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8955.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
因為所有的聚合體是小四的一切 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8962.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8971.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我現在是要準備去公堂我是在回到當時說要插傘因為我們在83樓之七的那一樓我們已經進了是新的一樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8989.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9001.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
對不對 但是到了最後 事實上手並不穩我們的資料是有發過來的我們投資的命運是有道理的我們是有道理的後來接下來的資料是有道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9010.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9010.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9028.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9036.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
你不是說有增加 但是實際上它是已經先減少了對啊然後再增加因為這樣是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9058.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9062.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們待會就直接討論好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9087.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9088.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
來 請坐 我們不是一起聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9091.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9115.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好報告聯席委員會我們繼續開會我補充說明一下其實我們剛剛討論昆城委員這個條文他第一次審查的時候他也是沒有來的對不對但我講我說如果是我來主持會議我們都盡量可以有現場到場我們都盡量保留大家的發言空間這樣法條的修正可以廣納各方的意見請大家諒解雖然大家會比較辛苦一點好不好但這是我們的原則我補充做一下說明好 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9116.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9136.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們現在進今天的最後一條是83條有關我們原住民朋友的部分好我們請這個看看我們各位人好請盧憲毅委員好謝謝主席那我們看到我們目前有六個三地三地鄉也就是以前的三地鄉現在的三地區分佈在我們新北市桃園市跟台中市跟高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9137.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9160.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
結果我們可能本來很高興他們是在直轄市的範圍結果10年過去他們所受到的那個財政自由然後去綁架了他們完全沒有辦法進步也就是說我們有實際的數據來看如果剛才高進在跟我們的官員在說的時候他說少了10億然後再補了1億就少了9億可是呢我這邊的資料是如果就相對的人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9162.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9189.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
來說金峰鄉的稅率大概3億左右可是呢高雄市的桃園卻只有2億那馬下甚至不到1億他跟人口差不多的達人鄉差了3億左右所以這就是他們的財政之前沒有規劃好的關係所以今天以下的那個修法跟新增的部分可能有高金委員來這邊來代勞因為我時間的關係所以我要先行離開那就麻煩我們高金委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9192.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9211.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好 謝謝盧縣議委員我們高清委員今天有提出相關的修正動議我們是不是請她說明一下高清委員有請應該都在你們桌上了吧桌上 桌上看一下 謝謝我們部長也有 對啊有啊 有好不好來 這裡來 妳先來吧 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9215.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9242.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
好 我來說明一下其實我們談到這個83條之三跟83條之七是兩個一併看的我先講一下由來再我們先講一下83條之三的部分那個之三的部分就是說原住民的自治區其實我們原住民在我們這塊土地上已經存在了6000年以上了我們實際上有一套的自治制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9243.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9268.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
即便是在日據時期的時候日本人針對原住民的特殊性仍然保持一定的自治制度然後接著我們按照憲法第十條第十二項的規定國家是應該要依照民族意願保障原住民族的地位及政治參與因為這樣所以在我們直轄市升格的時候只有原鄉地區我們的首長是屬於民選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9269.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9296.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以現在我們剛剛講到的有新北市烏來區桃園市的復興區台中市的和平區高雄市的茂林區高雄市的桃園區高雄市的納瑪夏區這兩個區我們的首長是民選的因此他自治的範圍是非常的清楚如果99年開始我們直轄市升格我們看到當時我們特別要求兩件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9297.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9312.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
第一件事情就是升格了我們必須要維持直轄市原住民族三地區的自治地位自治地位我們在民選上面已經找回來了第二個就是我今天有修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9315.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9326.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
83-7要求維持直轄市原住民族地區的財政水準跟改制前相同我們看一下我們所謂的自治就應該要有選舉權跟財政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9328.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9355.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
但是呢83條之3在原住民區我們少了稅捐跟公共債務的財政事項所以因此第83條之3我們認為我們必須要再回復這兩個部分然後再來83條之7的部分你們手上應該都有看到這個印給大家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9355.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9358.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
就是我們的當時原來的條文是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9365.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9383.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個升格之後呢我們應該要維持以前原住民鄉的財政可是很遺憾的我們看到的是我們升格之後我們原住民區的財政減少了我跟大家報告一下新北市的烏來區99年度的時候我們還有3億 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9388.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9391.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
6,876萬可是到了104年我們減少了6,784萬桃園市的復興區我們以前有8億2千多萬104年的時候只有5億2千7百減少了2億 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9406.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9411.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
和平區呢 以前有5億1千多 104年只有2億5千多 減少了2億5千多高雄市是最離譜的 高雄市我們有三個鄉茂林區以前有1億 那現在只有9千 少了2千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9425.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9443.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
桃園區以前有5億 現在只有一億 減少了4億多南阿夏 以前有5億 減少了4億所以在高雄市來說 我想今天的部長應該很清楚知道高雄市三個區就將近減少了10億 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9445.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9460.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以我們看到直轄市升格以後並沒有給原住民鄉帶來了應該要有的合理的財政分配還有自治事項所以今天有非常多的我們六位的區長 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9461.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9476.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
一併的陳情給我們原住民的立法委員希望能夠在這個部分能夠找回我們自治區應該要有的財政那另外呢我在一月份的時候也邀請我們的財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9477.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9506.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
能夠針對我提的這個部分在三個月之內要提出相關的言議那所以當他們提出相關的言議之後呢所以我看了我今天又提了修正動議修正動議的第83條之7我修我把他們給我的建議文字放在我們的第二項第二第二款第三款那這個部分我也請在場的委員參酌一下那最後我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9507.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9517.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
原鄉地区不应该因为直辖市的升格而失去了应该要有的原住民的自治权限以及我们的财政分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9524.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9544.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
好 謝謝高金素美委員的這個說明我跟大家補充報告一下在114年1月13號也就是我們上一次討論地方製作法的時候當初的那個協商的內容是這個有關於財政權的部分就是山地鄉財政權的部分這個我們那時候要要求內政部跟財政部要提出相關的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9544.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9571.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那現在應該有一些資料的準備所以我們請內政部跟財政部分別做出一下補充說明謝謝來請財政部主席 各位委員謝謝高進委員剛才提供的資料那這個這邊的資料應該是指的是稅出啦那當時的條文是講的是說不能低於就是說指甲式改制前各該三地鄉前三年度的稅客收入不是稅出 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9572.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9598.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那就我們目前掌握的資料現在就是這幾個這個園民區那就是大部分都有增加那污染是增加的比較少比較少但是像高雄台中這些都有一個大幅度的一個增加那這個會後我們待會會再發給大家這是第一點你現在就發給大家好不好發給大家謝謝那另外一點就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9601.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9622.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
對原民區的委員的提案的想法我們可以理解基本上要爭取原民區相關的裁員假定這個案子要照高經委員的這樣的一個臨時修正動議朝修正83條之7的方向來做的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9623.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9638.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那我是建議呢那這個其他委員提案修正的83條之383條之9之10之11這4條呢因為這4條就是如果我是建議不要討論就不討論那因為為什麼因為會重複會有重複補助的問題如果你要 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9646.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9674.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
修正83條之一之七然後呢又要把那個稅捐跟這個這個這個在債務那部分拉進去的話就會有重複補助的問題所以我這是第一個建議如果這個方向是各位委員如果是可以支持的話那麼我就在就這個條文83條之七這條文的內容那我再做一個進一步的說明我不知道各位是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9676.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9700.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
可以支持這樣的一個方向也就是說我們就處理83條之七但是呢83條之三83條之九之十之十一就不予討論我是同意的但是你必須要給我保證就是說在83條之七的這些文字裡面它是全部都可以包含它可以涵蓋嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9702.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9717.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
來 財政部好 那這個83條之7的這一部分有幾個地方我要提醒一下就是說在增訂的這第三款裡面那個頭的地方一定要寫到當年度啦當年度一定要加 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9718.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9736.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那就是第三款第三款慈霞市之中央統籌分配稅款實際分配金額高於通知分配數那麼慈霞市應以次一年度按實際增加比例等等那麼前面加一個當年度來知道說是哪一個年度這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9736.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9759.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
直轄市之中央 當年度 直轄市 當年度 OK那另外一個就是說這邊就講說在第三行就是說這個按增加的比例 按增加比例增加對各該3地原住民的補助也就是說呢他就是硬性的規定一定要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9759.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9789.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是我就覺得就是說石匣市跟各園民區之間的關係還是要整體的去考量整體去考量那比如說有一些這個市權那麼已經有轉由石匣市在做石匣市在做比如說像這個像這個高雄的這些幼兒園那就已經市府已經在承接了那像桃園它的道路的改善計畫也是由這個市府來承接 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9789.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9814.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那另外還有他們也有對這個園民區有其他的補助現在補助所以這個可能還是要通盤去考量不要說要硬性的就是可以增加硬性可以增加所以我們是建議說著增著增對各該山地園民區之補助這是第二點說明那第三點就是第二項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9816.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9835.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這邊修正說由中央財政主管機關定資那因為地治法是一個地方自治的條例地方自治的一個法律所以這個相關的補助事項那麼現行條文是由直轄市恰桑山地原住民區定資 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9836.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9860.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
所以這個不涉及中央,有中央涉入啦中央不適宜涉入啦這要由直轄市跟原民區來駕商啦這個由他們來協商但是我們財政部當然會就財源這部分會從旁來協助啦從旁來協助那以上簡單的補充說明,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9863.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9884.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
市長 您剛剛有一些文字的修正 我大概是沒有意見但是對於第二項的部分 中央財政主管機關訂正我也同意您剛剛說的地方制度法但是我們可不可以把洽商拿掉然後在第83條之7就保障原鄉的六個區 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9885.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9914.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
因為為什麼在原條文裡面大家看一下原條文的83條之七三地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以籌設補助並且要維持改制前各該三地相統籌分配財源的水準我們縱使在以前的條文裡面的這個第一項裡面有這樣但是呢在最後一項也是由恰商 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9914.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9941.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以因此我們本來是很信任地方政府的但是你要清楚知道地方政府的區長跟市長他們的確是會有一些些的這個要洽商原鄉地區的確是沒有辦法所以我們如果是在第83條之七我剛剛說的第二款第三款裡面都有被保障到的話我們是不是後面就不要再洽商了 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9942.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9956.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
然後我們的財政部以後可以怎麼樣做一個來監督這個地方政府有沒有實際上應該要有給原鄉地區的這些財政分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9958.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9976.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
跟委員報告我要問的就是這個請你很直白的回答第二款這部分就是本來是按照那個按照他的這個稅客收入來平均數來算嘛對不對現在你們就是可以大聲一點你的麥克風我們是還聽不太清楚對謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9981.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9996.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那麼第二款 第二款那麼委員的建議是改為用稅出預總預算稅出的平均率來算那這一部分我們原則尊重不過部分就是有一些縣市有一些縣市有講到說那麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9999.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10014.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
有一些呢是比如說它直轄市對各各園民區呢它有很多種補助包括縣統籌分配稅款還有呢計劃型補助款還有其他的協助的裁員 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10015.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10043.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那另外有一些職權已經由市府來承擔所以他們是建議說設算的基礎如果沒有排除這些項目的話就會造成重複補助的問題這一部分我就覺得他們講的也有道理所以希望職小市的意見也能夠納入參酌所以第二款原則上這個文字我們是沒有意見的 是尊重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10044.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10068.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
但是第三款剛才我也報告過就是說不要用增加著增啦就是還是要考慮到讓他們實際的這個指甲市跟各原民區之間的財政的狀況由他們去協商由他們協商因為他們有很多的補助款我們也搞不清楚我們不要說一定要增加一定要增加他搞不好已經早就給他很多了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10069.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10095.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
而且他很多的業務他已經承擔下來了所以這一部分我是講說不要直接講說增加是著真另外我是覺得地治法中央財政組織不予介入真的是不予介入這個一定要由這個直轄市跟這個園民區來協商但是我剛才也講過就是說在協商過程當中我們財政部可以從旁可以盡量來協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10097.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10126.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
怎麼樣從旁協助因為我現在看到的是你們給我的書面報告是新北無意見嘛桃園希望能夠調整至8億然後區公所是也同樣支持修正這個83條高雄的茂林區也說要增加那唯一講的是這個高雄市政府可能有比較多的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10127.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10137.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以其實呢各地方好像都都比較沒有意見修這個所以你剛剛說那個佐徵的部分我可以再問清楚佐徵一塊錢也是徵嘛對不對對嘛所以你是保留這個區長跟跟直轄市的這個首長洽商 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10148.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10157.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
等一下好謝謝我們因為剛剛吳世耀委員舉手然後曾天才委員然後我們再請這個財務部這邊再做詳細說明可以嗎好吳世耀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10159.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10182.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好謝謝主席因為今天是內政跟司法聯席所以我來這邊參與這個修法我想先確認一下資訊的來源因為手上有兩頁資料既然這一83條不管是之三之八之七呀到之八之十一都是要討論都是涉及了對於原鄉的照顧有沒有變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10183.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10211.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
因為直轄市的改制這件事情的前提要釐清如果真的是有資源的減少當然我們想辦法來補強這我們努力來討論但這有兩份資料這一份是高金委員的資料嗎好這委員提供好提案委員的資料那這一份是剛剛財政部拿來的嘛對不對所以我想確認一下因為我剛我有聽到次郎這邊說到說其實這個法的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10213.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10237.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這個補助它是用不得低於說客收入然後你們財政部提供的這個資訊是除了自治財源的補助還有其他的補助然後加總起來如果先看高金委員提案委員的這個資料看起來104年比99年相比看起來確實烏來、復興、和平、茂林、桃園跟納馬巷 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10239.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10255.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
感觉都减少了少则两千五百多万多则四亿这是看到提案委员的资料那当然就让我觉得哇那这样真的是不要亏待原乡那现在看到你们财政部的这一我刚刚按计算机一直在算 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10257.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10283.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我看到的是从一样的比较基础但你们这是104跟112资料是到112如果112年相减于104年的补助对于新北的乌来区是增加3641万那对于桃园市复兴区是减少的是六个里面唯一减少减少大概7000万然后台中和平区呢自治财源加其他补助增加是9007万 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10285.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10312.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
然後高雄茂林區加總起來增加是三八七三萬那桃園區增加三五六八萬然後那馬下區增加了六百五十九萬如果我沒有算錯的話就說兩個資料有很大解讀的落差所以這個我要確認一下到底對於原鄉的照顧有沒有因為改制而實質我們說實質當然他可能在法的規範可能是減少但是你們會想方設法例去指責是照顧原鄉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10313.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10335.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
辖區內的園鄉想辦法用其他補助來補強它我們最在乎的對於園鄉的實質的各類的補助到底是哪一個數字是我們討論這個法案要參酌的這是第一件事情因為這個前提確認了我們才能夠進一步來釐清說是不是要修法來協助好這是第一個所以我看到資訊是有很大的落差我想要釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10336.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10359.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
第二個就是說 畢竟這是直轄市的財政負擔啦所以說直轄市政府的意見到底有沒有一致因為我們不能抗人家之慨我們不能修了法 結果直轄市最後做不到所以第二個 直轄市的意見到底是什麼有沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10361.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10385.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
第三件事情是你剛剛講的話就像修裁劃法一樣嘛你要從中央增加對地方的預算的預注但是市權有沒有統一有些事情因為直轄市改制之後你剛剛講到高雄的例子有一些誘託的執行是後來就回收到直轄市政府高雄市政府來執行所以市權的統一會 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10388.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10393.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
攸關財政的挹注,有些事情已經市政府一旦亂做了,如果這樣這個衛生這個項目就硬東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10397.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10424.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
不好似曾經有去做所以我們不能說再一次財政收支劃分法那個模式跟不可能是一樣你市權沒有統一只是增加預算所以說三個前提第一個預算的增加對於原鄉到底是增加或減少這個數字是我們討論這個法案的前提我要釐清第二個各個職場市政府的意見有沒有整合有沒有共識第三個市權的統一的這個部分可能還是要在細部的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10426.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10444.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
這是我提出來的三個疑問好 謝謝我可以先回答一些第一個這個資料的差異因為高進委員的資料應該是以稅出作為邏輯然後財政部的資料是稅入那現在高進委員修正綜藝版本是要把因為現行條文是用稅入作為母體那高進委員提提稅出 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10445.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10472.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那沒關係我覺得這一點只要大家有溝通好有一致的平台就OK那第二個各縣政府因為我們之前有要求財政部提報告那現在看起來是都可以接受我目前沒有我剛剛聽高清委員說是沒有沒有反沒有明確反對的意見就是沒有意見的站比較多的多數好沒關係我們請鄭天才委員這個在在座然後我們再請財政部做說明謝謝好這個從剛才的一個會有這樣的一個質疑最主要就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10474.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10501.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
財政部的這個資料啊沒有把99年度你沒有把99年度的資料顯現出來就會讓這個相關的委員會覺得說從104104到112有不一樣啊 還好啊如果你去跟99年度所以啊所以99年度的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10503.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10524.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
確實如果是比較多很多去做一個比較的話就會覺得說確實是要去修正或者是第一個第二個不要一直去強調不要去強調說高雄市有承擔了一部分這業務因為這個修了之後他會還給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10526.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10545.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
他會還給他會還給高雄市本來已經做的啊你這個修正之後啊既然你的錢錢增加了他會還給他啊所以這個部分是一個我啊這個一個必然的一個可能性很大啊所以這個部分不必太強調說他現在承接的什麼業務啊因為他 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10546.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10564.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
未來這個變化是怎麼樣市長也會改也會換所以這個部分是我們是從制度面來去解決這個確實是99年度跟現在確實有這樣的很大的落差以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10567.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10587.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
對 我再補充一下 因為您剛剛我們看了 因為這個資料是剛剛給我們的我們再看了一下 發現你並不是從99年 你是從104年所以你升格之後 然後你告訴我是有增加現在我再告訴你 我們以前99年 喇嘛下是5億 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10588.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10609.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們是5億然後呢你現在說多了8000他還是1.9億啊那4億減少4億裡面的1.9億他還是減少啊市長你不能夠這樣子說啊所以呢重點就是呢我們要改一下就是說在制度上怎麼樣來保障我們這六個區我剛一直講到這個六個區是民選的首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10615.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10634.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
他跟其他直轄市升格之後他去派任的首長不一樣他有民權表示他有自治的權限他既然是民選的首長有自治權限他就應該要給他應該要有的財政的保障還沒升格就那麼多錢了升格之後才反而減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10636.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10651.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那你的財政收支花生法也已經增加了然後呢照理說你本來就是應該要增加那我們怎麼樣在制度上面能夠來保障這六個區這是我們今天協商最重要的這個要談的事情好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10654.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10681.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好 我們全部做統一回應好不好 謝謝剛才委員提到就是資訊落差的問題我這邊要解釋一下那高金委員提供的這個資料是真的是稅出啦是稅出的資料那我們條文是說你不能不得低於改這個這個前三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10685.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10700.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
就不得低於不得低於各該三體項前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以我們那個資料是是稅客收入來算的這是第一個我們是按照法令的規定來算的這是第一個第二個我們為什麼沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10702.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10721.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
如果要99年的資料當然我們可以找啦但是我們這個修法是103年開始修的所以我們才會從104年開始列舉開始列舉說到底它到底增加多少或者是減少多少這個都清清楚楚這個東西都是數字在說話啦數字在說話這是第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10725.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10752.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
那當然就是剛才講就是說有一些市權要統一的事情那我覺得真的我覺得這蠻重要的因為為什麼因為他們現在石橋市跟園民區已經有在協商一直都有在協商當然就是說園民區也許可能不太滿意但是一直都有在協商那我要講就是說我們要給多少當然市權跟財權一定要並同考量就像我們財 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10753.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10761.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個裁判法一樣嘛就是裁選跟這個試選要並同來考量所以這是第三點說明那 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10765.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10788.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
那基本上我們是希望就是說能夠盡量來協助園民鄉在這個大家可以有共識的範圍內盡量協助園民鄉能夠取得足夠的財源來建設但是我們希望就是能夠跟直轄市之間那麼由他們跟直轄市之間要有一個溝通的管道由他們來協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10790.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10818.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
但是我們現在也給他一個多的一個機制也就是說你這個我們的時增數時增數就是我們的統合分稅款如果增加的話那麼我們直轄市就要考量這個因素那麼著針對這個園民區的這個補助這是一個我覺得這個把這個因素納進去如果放在法裡面那麼將來呢那麼他在執行的時候就有比較法律依據了 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10820.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10826.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
所以我的修正動力條文是OK的嗎是不是你只是說做文字的修正嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10828.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10854.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
OK啊 沒問題啊我們到目前為止當然一些細節一些資料大家還要再做溝通這沒有問題但大概兩個方向嘛第一個方向是大概就只修83條之7對不對這是沒有問題的對不對 財政部我們行政端我就第三款就是剛才我講過就第三款的我再重複一遍就是當年度就是在頭的地方加一個當年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10855.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10875.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那另外增加就寫濁增 叫濁增那另外那個最後第二項還是有資亞市恰桑山地原住民區來訂定這是這個那至於剛才講說稅出那一部分我不知道內政部這邊有沒有意見好 盧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10880.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10895.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
謝謝因為地制法的主管機關是內政部為主所以我們在這個條文裡面寫由中央財政主管機關來定制是一個很奇怪的法律再來就是剛剛有提到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10896.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10917.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我們在去年的時候已經先就我們若干委員尤其是山地或平地原住民所提的修法的部分那時候還沒有出現高經委員所提的修正動議雖然每一個區公所山地原住民區的區公所都表示無意見或支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10918.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10938.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
但是直轄市政府的態度都是保留啦我這邊有一個記錄在這邊包括新北市、桃園市、台中市跟高雄市那大部分所提到的意見那個如果跟財政有關的話剛剛那個次長已經跟各位回應我想大部分市政府的意見會覺得說如果說他們已經在原來的稅客的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10938.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10965.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
已經有補助的話那未來在由市政府的設算裡面恐怕是不要用重複補助為原則啦那這個就沒有在這個條文的文字裡面做修正所以我們會建議說如果要修正這個以這個高金素美委員的這個版本的話第一個就是不能只有寫中央財政主管機關那個縣市政府還是要市政府啦因為都是直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10967.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10986.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
直轄市還是要列進去然後再來就是說不管是統籌分配款或者是縣市政府的計劃補助款等等這些不能夠重複補助為原則否則這樣子對其他的一個區公所可能會造成一個排擠的效應 謝謝好還有沒有委員要補充的來 吳世耀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11002.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11008.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
想當然而我們六個原鄉的這個區公所當然希望能夠增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11009.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11028.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
這也是為什麼原住民的委員來協助提案但畢竟這個裁員本身在做分配在做事權的處理以及分工然後乃至於這個補助不能重複這個主事者還是直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11029.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11057.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以說如果說這個直轄市的意見如果剛剛劉部長所說的從新北桃園台中跟高雄的直轄市都有所保留意見的話那是不是要再跟直轄市政府再溝通一下是不是這樣否則到時候直轄市跳起來我們立法委員休一休直轄市又跳起來來找我們算賬這個是這樣子是是因為我等一下我是在問我是在問那個劉部長這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11064.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11082.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
我想針對吳委員的部分我提一下新北市政府某一項意見按照現行財化法的規定部分稅客收入由縣統籌分配與鄉鎮市如果山地原住民區准用該法規定該部分直轄市無法適用請並考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11083.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11105.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
還有就是講到園民區如果有公共債務的權限它的未償餘額比例的設計應該考慮對直轄市公共債務未償比例的影響也並同考量修正公共債務法這個是我們在去年問的時候但是我還是一再強調就是針對高金委員所提的部分我們還沒有機會去問直轄市的市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11106.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11127.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以我建議你們應當要去針對因為高金委員的提案其實剛剛財政部也釋出相當的這個彈性但是為了確保這個精確還是要針對新的版本要跟指甲市政府溝通好比較好而且這正是剛剛劉部長的回答也是我自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11128.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11147.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
这个修法的尝试性给我的经验就是说我们修了地质法地质法前一法动选生的一定会有譬如说财化法的部分财政相关或者是刚刚讲公债法的部分因为我们现在在地质法里面增加83条之3 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11148.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11166.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
像好幾個委員的版本還增加這個債務的部分所以說公債法的一併的檢討然後跟地方稅法通則對不對這跟地方稅法通則相關還有地方稅法有關鄉鎮市的規定恐怕都要一併去檢視啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11168.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11186.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
刚刚那个刘部长讲到的地方政府刚刚那是桃园还是谁的意见就提到公债的部分所以就我的经验上来讲我觉得地方税法通则也好然后这个公债法相关的部分乃至于跟财务法有没有关系我不知道这要再确认一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11188.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11205.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
那這個都應當配套要思考周延會更好所以我是建議內政部應當跟紫霞市針對新的委員的新的版本如果做得到紫霞市也OK的話那當然我們都支持但是要跟紫霞市政府獲得比較好的共識再來處理好謝謝我們鄭天才委員先好不好然後高金委員因為要看我們條文怎麼樣去修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11215.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11241.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
因為你說直接一定要去跟執行市政府他當然希望維持現行條文這是必然的那我們既然已經發現這個這個修法的當時修法的所有的一個切施怎麼樣去做一個彌補何況如果我們通過的第二項是維持現行的第二項那就不用擔心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11242.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11270.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
因為還是由直轄市恰商山地原住民7所以這個部分我們是不是能夠往前走一步這個而且這個剛才財政部也提到那個第三款也要改為走濁增就很有彈性這個濁增如果大家如果通過的是濁增而且第二項也是恰商對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11271.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11289.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
就就就沒有什麼太太多的異議啊總是要往前啊才有這個山地原住民期才有一個協商的一個一個機會啊都是恰商然後又著真嗎啊是不是我是建議啊能夠朝這個往前邁進一步啊謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11298.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11310.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
好 我再說明一下事實上今天我的再修正動議修正動議不是平白無故生出來的我這邊先要跟市要委員說一下這個部分是經過1月13號我們在這裡的會議結論這個會議結論是希望我們的財政部三個月之內檢討評估並且向我 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11320.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11347.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
在委員會提出報告那我手上這份報告呢也是財政部跟地方政府去談的所以不是沒有去跟地方政府談過所以呢我今天的修正動議的版本就是按照我們財政部提供給我的就是說研議修正地制法第83條之七第一項第二款的規定明定直轄市依照直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11349.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11377.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
改制前各該三地鄉前三年度的總預算稅出平均數扣除中央或直轄市額外補助的平均數並考量部分市權已由直轄市負責予以設算補助園民區以避免重複補助問題然後考量今年稅收成長因素亦可研議明定中央統籌稅款實際分配竟然高於通知分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11377.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11402.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
述實直轄市應該要在次一年度按照它的增加比率著針對園民區的補助所以我今天的修正動議是完全按照財政部給我的意見剛剛部長的意見我也沒有意見就是我們希望把遊戲規則定起來然後地方政府或者是中央主管機關或者是會同中央財政主管機關一起來洽商我都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11405.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11419.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
好不好所以我必須要講今天的修正動議那麼剛剛講了剛剛那個次長也說了如果我們的修83條之7的話前面之3就可以不要處理了所以就都在這裡處理了以上補充謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11423.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11452.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
好 我們請部長做最後一次回應然後我們要先下一個小的 次長對不起 次長再做一次回應我們下個結論好不好這個 謝謝各位委員的指教那這個案子其實我們真的有邀請這個直轄市還有園民區來開會啦那直轄市的意見是這樣子直轄市剛才新北市那部分那麼部長也已經有講了他是有他說要並同考量修正公債法但是因為我們現在83條43已經不修了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11452.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11469.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
所以就沒有這個問題所以我們是把它歸類不反對當時我們是這樣認定那桃園市沒有表達意見沒有表達反對的意見那台中市他是講到說不能重複 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11471.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11489.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
就是剛才我講的不能重複就是說不能又補助然後又把稅簽那些都拿進來他講說不能重複那高雄市呢他說這個不納入就是說這個比照延民區比照鄉鎮市的這個在線不納入這個直轄市的在線 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11490.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11510.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
那這個部分也是因為83條13也不處理的嘛所以沒有這個問題那沒有關係那我想為了慎重起見我是想說我們是不是容許我們再邀集他們再來再確認一次啦在我覺得這樣大家好因為會涉及到他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11511.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11533.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們給他們看一下如果可以的話因為今天已經在朝野協商了對不對今天已經在協商了然後呢這個也是你們財政部給的意見所以你的意思是說你現在給的意見地方政府沒有討論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11538.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11551.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
不是 當時他們開會的時候其實財政部你們就已經告訴地方政府是有這個方向了嘛對啊 所以他們都說沒有意見啊然後你們擔心的那個債務的部分也已經沒有不處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11565.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11586.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
就看我们如果啊财政部次长的修正的文字啊高金委员如果能够接受的话真的真的没有影响啊因为最主要是第一个他说要着真啊第二个如果还是维持第二项也是恰伤啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11587.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11608.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
所以大家就往前一步因為我並沒有看到所謂財政部給高金委員的報告然後現在跟你們一樣我現在看到了這樣但我看到他的評估報告的內容多數的意見都有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11609.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11631.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
不可以重複補助這個要確認所以條文上怎麼去處理他呢而且要綜合檢討要洽商原住民區的檢討補助事宜然後我現在非常RAF的看我看到的不管是地方財政機關的意見所謂地方財政機關包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11632.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11653.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
直辖市的包括原乡的我看到的一件事还没有那么确认那主席我是向建议就是说因为今天你还有很多条文就是要下一次再讨论那为求周延就是让他们再去因为今天确实是八七条之七是现在才看到高金委员的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11653.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11676.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那慰求周圓就下一次你們很快的去處理還排就可以確認啦我覺得這樣比較好因為沒有因為整個還是整個法今天沒有需要說哪一條就先確認嘛好不好請主席做這樣的裁決我覺得周圓是很重要我們confirm清楚confirm清楚我非常擔心指教士最後又跳出來說這個版本跟當初我們研析的時候的版本的內容不盡相同我覺得這樣不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11681.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11703.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
好 謝謝吳司長委員那這樣子好不好因為我們今天這個地質法我們當然一次修你也不要說只送一部分然後就拖在那邊很煩所以我就希望我們委員會多走幾次然後能夠盡量達成共識那今天包含前面包含李昆城委員的條文副市長相關的條文都還沒有進入完全確定的狀態嘛那我們這一條至少有一點前進嘛第一我們做成有一個結論第一個叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11703.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11730.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
原則上跟聯名財政權有關的部分我們就只修83條之7嘛其他我們就不予處理對不對那83條之7我們經過剛剛的討論之後也有一個委員會的初步意見那這樣的意見就請財政部、內政部立刻帶回去再做溝通跟資料的補充好不好那原則上我們下次在排案的時候我們就要有明確的方向這樣我們原名的議員這樣子的安排是可以的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11732.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11738.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
我原則上下一次盤就是兩個禮拜之後財務可以嗎他們會配合啊 OK |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11741.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11767.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
他們趕快去跟那個談但主席我有一個小小小小的修正就是說827條畢竟現在在整個討論的版本裡面有支3有支7有支8有支11當然我們剛剛在場的人的共識是說聚焦就827支783支783支3其他不處理我理解但是因為有其他提案的委員反正下一次會回來嘛這個結論倒是就是因為你剛說 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11768.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11780.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
希望保留一點彈性是不是因為我不知道其他委員提案委員不在因為董事委員有講交給高清委員處理抱歉我們一直以來在內政委員會就是有提案的委員如果我們在討論的時候他沒有來就不予處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11783.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11807.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那剛剛羅先生委員要離開的時候已經授權給我對授權給我所以呢今天我們就是83條之七好不好那我們也請83條之七財政部請你告訴我就是按照現在我依照財政部的文字的這個部分修正動力的部分再提一份如果按照這樣子的修正那個試算表給我看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11808.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11834.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
好不好我們需要看一下到底改這個這個只是改直轄市跟沒有改直轄市原鄉的這個這個財政的狀況是如何好嗎謝謝好謝謝高經緯其實原則上我會稍微寬一點好但原則上有達成共識我們之前都會列入紀錄好下一次延續的時候我們就原則照這個原則那原則上我們針對原民的部分我們就以83條之7為母體那我要再提醒一下因為還有一個83條之12 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11835.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11851.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
好 這個也請原民跟這個相關的主管機關跟原民委員先做一個溝通因為他試射什麼值等 那更複雜那我是建議在下一次討論之前就先有一個共識這樣我們就可以節省很多時間 好不好好 那今天大概就先到這邊好 我們先簡單宣讀一下這個協商的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11987.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12015.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
好報告聯席委員會我們現在宣讀協商結論33條的部分有一個委員會審查的初步版本好我們下次原則上我們讓他通過好但是下一次做最後的確認然後55、56條跟副市長有關我們保留78條我們也有一個初步的委員會初步討論的版本下一次我們要按照這個版本繼續做延商83條之7一樣按照這個初步保留的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12016.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12031.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
繼續做延商83條12保留好吧那請問各位委員我們就照剛剛的協商結論通過請問有異議沒有好謝謝那我們討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會 |