| IVOD_ID |
166814 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166814 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-05T13:03:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-05T13:17:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b58e0d23a1429880f583011a53eea80ce160f44abb379efbafa9f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
葉元之 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:03:38 - 13:17:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。
【本次會議僅進行詢答】
【1月5日及8日二天一次會】） |
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麻煩請主委 謝謝 |
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委員長主委好 早上的時候因為現在總預算一直沒有過嘛那當然在野黨也有我們的立場啦我們是認為說行政院應該要按照三讀通過的法律來編列預算那行政院是說他覺得違憲他不能編但我們會覺得違不違憲不是行政院說的算嘛那法律既然生下就應該依法編列所以現在卡住了那行政院也沒有要退的意思 |
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63.503 |
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那現在行政院一直說法是說那會影響到很多新興計畫因為例行性的不會影響嘛去年兩兆九千多億他現在都可以用嘛現在是新興計畫會受到影響那我早上是聽你跟應該是民進黨委員有一個對話是說如果新興計畫沒辦法執行的話部會可以個別把新興計畫送到立法院如果立法院可以同意的話還是可以執行是這樣嗎 |
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80.907 |
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他是預算法裡面就是說新興計劃是如果總預算沒有審過新興計劃是不能執行但是呢如果立法院同意是不再此限那這個指的是行政院對立法院的關係所以新興計劃如果先解套是可以的是不是 |
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81.528 |
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110.364 |
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就是看立法院要不要同意所以行政院如果認為新興計畫真的很重要的話他可以針對新興計畫個別送過來嗎不是個別就是這個新興計畫上立法院如果同意使用是可以的但是有新興計畫你如果其他的沒有辦法執行會面臨一些困難所以如果是你的話你會建議行政院怎麼做如果他真的認為新興計畫這麼重要的話我早是認為中華民國立法院 |
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130.596 |
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很多年了很少有總預算沒有省到下年度了中華民國這麼多年了也沒有行政院不依法執行編列預算的這個是很例外的一種現象所以我是覺得大家不要利用這個時間在吵因為吵不完大家各有立場如果你問我我當然覺得應該依法編列預算 |
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149.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那只要他願意依法編列預算這個就解了嘛那在他不願意依法行政的情況下如果新興計畫你的意思是說他可以個別如果立法院同意的話新興計畫可以來致用是這個意思嗎預算要是附委的才能審查審查了才能夠發現有沒有依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
151.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
161.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你現在就是沒有依法我不在這邊跟你吵這個啦因為這個吵三分鐘都吵不完啦因為這個在這個大家都已經很了解了啦那我現在只是問說如果卡在這邊那因為有別的委員問你新興計畫的問題嘛你說其實還有一個解套方式嗎我說新興計畫就以汽水來調適非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
199.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們現在就看行政院就是說就是要卡在這邊他不認為這個新計劃很重要還是怎麼樣我們看行政院的態度就像那個軍購案1.25兆現在行政院或總統一直認為那個很重要可是他覺得很重要他送來條例就只有七條就寫得不清不楚如果他認為很重要我認為他應該會寫得很詳細但是就隨便寫寫所以這個行政院跟總統到底有沒有認為這個預算很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
200.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
220.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
還是只是嘴巴講講還是說只是把它拿來當作一個政治口水來噴在野黨的一個工具我全民都在看那我跟你請教一下那個標案的問題我想問一下主委像有一些採購案評分單上面如果說有一些採購是不是有時候會要求這個廠商時機 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
221.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
238.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
譬如說有些廠商如果沒有接過政府標案的話他還不能夠來投標有的時候是這樣嘛對吧這是各採購機關他可以去訂定他的這個投標廠各採購機關當然是各採購機關但因為您是主管採購的最高機關我們只管他的採購有沒有合乎採購法 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
240.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
254.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
資格問題是各機關去認定可是因為你是最高的機關如果當你看到有一些機關它的做法可能會影響到公共品質或是採購的優劣的話你也不能做事不管我們也是依法來管 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
256.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
276.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
但是你不能做事不管你現在做到的都是最低標準法律的但是你都沒有想要好還要更好嗎你的態度就覺得說你做得不好但是好像也沒違法不管我的事但是國人對你們期待不是只有這樣我希望說尤其是你還是政務委員國人對這個國防預算的期待也跟大家不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
278.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
國人是多少百分之幾的國人對 你去問看看百分之幾的國人國防預算重不重要我們對於國防預算我們也希望說我們也希望總統跟行政院可以提出更詳細的說明不是這個七條不是 總統現在我在質詢你採購的問題你不要扯東扯西好不好是你先說國防預算我沒有 我現在在講採購是你先說國防預算我現在在講廠商時機我現在在講廠商時機我有跟你講國防預算嗎我也是回答你時機你不要每次來都來吵架好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
306.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
328.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你在吵架還是在被尋的啊我沒有跟任何人吵架我現在在跟你講說現在如果有一些單位他在採購的時候沒有訂出廠商時機導致於這個採購可能會品質不好那站在工程委員會的立場是什麼這個是你不了解政務採購法但是主委你的意思是說那是歸各採購單位跟你沒有 這沒有我很了解我跟你講個實際狀況採購機關有他的要求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們在我的選區板橋有一個郵局本來講說去年年底就要開幕後來現在一直拖又要拖到兩三個月原因是什麼原因是那個廠商室內裝修廠商一直出包所以廠商過去的時機他跟政府能不能配合他能不能履約這個不重要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
374.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
如果這個廠商沒有提出一個他優良的時機會導致他這個合約能不能夠履行嘛這這麼簡單嘛那當他沒有辦法履行的話他延誤的是誰延誤的是我們一般的民眾使用郵局的權利嘛所以站在公共工程的角度我只是舉這個例子所以站在工程委員會的角度當你看到各個機關如果他定的採購的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
375.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
可能會影響事後履約本來你本來就是應該行政指導啊而不是說定一個最低的標準你只要沒有違法都不關我的事你都不會想說在民眾角度怎麼讓公共工程可以做得更好這個採購的指引我們都有啦當然是希望機關是嘛 那今天為什麼會找你討論這個事情是因為之前國防部就是很奇怪嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
410.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不是嗎 一個是不是你請國防部上來回答你的問題今天國防部的事情大家都討論我現在不是那今天這個問題如果是國防部會發生其他單位不會發生嗎其他單位不會發生我們現在討論原則性欠提嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
414.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
429.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主席 我今天我要請誰回答是工程會備詢的人可以來決定的嗎我現在問你原則性的問題嘛我問你原則性的問題不是啦 我沒有看過那麼浩漫的官員啦好 葉委員 那個陳主委我想這一整天了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
430.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
456.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
一樣我們還是重申交通委員會我們就是針對議題來解決問題那等一下再請我們葉委員再持續質詢那我也要求陳主委因為備詢官員與否回答是委員的權益所以委員有指定哪一個官員回答的時候再請那官員上來那但是也拜託葉委員就是說您的問題把比較聚焦一點讓主委這邊可以針對您的問題來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
457.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
478.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我問題很聚焦啦我問題問廠商時機他扯到軍購預算了我這故意來拖時間的嘛我現在我的問題我想請教一下譬如說以國防部來講我是舉那個例子我們討論一個通案如果要政府採購採購一個巨額的採購但是資本額他只有定20萬這樣合不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
501.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我不曉得什麼假設的案它實際上發生的案每一個機構它當然要訂相關的採購廠商的資格包括時機包括資本額包括有多少專業的人力能不能履約這個當然要訂這個通案是要訂至於國防部這個案子為什麼這樣最能夠說明的就是國防部我不能代他說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
502.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
516.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不是我問一下主委你認為這樣子資格標因為他第一關是資格標嘛他第二個他按照顧立雄的說法他是說只要能夠語約就好啊反正他不能語約就扣他的錢是不是資格標我不清楚啦你們是選擇性招標還是還是公開招標20萬當然是定在資格裡面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
520.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
542.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那個不叫做選擇性招標啊不是我沒有說選擇性招標我說那個資本額20萬他有沒有訂一個資本額的標準在那邊嘛資格上面有沒有要求說資本額一定要多少所以這個應該要請國防部來說明啦好那請他說明我等一下通案的我再來問你請教好不好可以可以國防部署長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
547.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
556.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
委員好 有關這個案子是我們這個火藥原物料的案子那這個案子我們為了廣徵商源我們國內確實沒有廠商可以做 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
557.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
586.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那這個案子其實就是賣方市場那我們為了廣深商業你有沒有訂資本額的標準沒有訂任何資本額的標準所以他資本額五萬十萬二十萬通通都可以只要他能夠提出能夠履約都可以來標所以我們以後面的履約的作為來約束廠商那如果他沒辦法履約你就扣他款嘛對嘛這就會造成我剛剛講的嘛會延誤的狀況但是我們20年來38個案子沒有任何一個案子沒有辦法履約的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
587.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
606.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那是過去的時機嘛我講的是說我們現在講通案嘛我剛剛為什麼舉那個郵局的例子就是說如果說你在採購的過程當中你標準訂的太寬很可能就會造成比如說他沒辦法預約會影響到人民的權利嘛我講的是這件事情嘛我跟委員報告郵局的裝修跟買國防彈尿是兩回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
606.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
636.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我知道是兩回事但是你採購東西你採購東西也是要看廠商的時機嘛我舉一個例子啦等一下等一下主委等一下好不好那時候疫情的時候衛福部也因為很緊急所以要買快篩後來不是也有一個小吃店轉型變成快篩公司可以進口快篩結果後來這個小吃店因為被踢爆說他之前是小吃店轉的他說他不接這個單子結果原來被人家發現他以前賣過假口罩 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
637.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
656.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以如果他那時候接了這個單子也跟衛福部簽約了可是事後沒有辦法履約他其實就會影響到這個快篩的進口嘛所以廠商時機當然會影響不管是公共工程採購勞務採購或貿易都是會影響的嘛現在我們討論就是說那廠商的資格資料那麼寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
662.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
681.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
還是其實掌上資格是可以定的比較嚴格一點而不是只是靠事後他能不能履約來處分他他能夠履約就奧米托弗很棒他不能履約我再扣他的履約保證金但那個就是會造成採購時程的延誤我現在討論的是這件事情所以主委你的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
682.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
707.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你覺得各單位應不應該即便是這種貿易的委員你要講通案但是舉的例子卻是很特殊的個案採購國防的彈藥疫情的時候採購疫苗這個都不是隨便街上就買得到的那個都是賣方市場所以這個通案跟這兩個個案事實上有不盡然的關係所以我們有些是做特殊考量我是只能這樣回答你的疑問了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
708.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
722.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以你還是覺得說像國防部他的這個採購還包括還有一個茶葉行可以做電腦設備跟治安的維護他的資本額10萬塊你覺得你這種問法我沒辦法做任何回覆啦為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
723.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
731.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不是 因為這個採購案我沒有講得很詳細採購案我沒有講得很詳細的原因是因為這個案子已經是國人很關注就工程會主管來講那剛剛講的那個茶葉行勒他就是做那個資安軟體的服務然後資本額10萬塊那這個是不是賣方市場是哪一個機關我來問問看哪一個機關國防部為什麼要這樣定情他說明嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
748.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
761.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒有啦我為什麼沒有因為第一個私訊時間有限第二個我舉的這幾個案子都是大家討論國人媒體討論很多的例子有茶葉嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛茶葉這些是國防部嘛那請問一下那茶葉行這個案子你有聽說嗎茶葉行這個案子你有聽說嗎你不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
774.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
782.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你不知道茶葉行做國防部電腦軟體思案的這個你沒有聽過不是啦沒關係啦因為我為什麼沒有針對每個個案說很詳細因為我剛剛講的茶葉的或者是彈藥這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
791.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
805.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個都是國人討論非常久的案子那今天因為主委您來您是主管公共工程所以想請教你的意見就是說像類似這樣的案子站在主管機關角度你的看法如何但是因為你 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
806.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
833.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我早上已經說明你居然講說明你說不知道居然你都不知道然後問你 你就說去問各單位這就是公共工程會主委兼政務委員對國人所討論非常久的採購案的態度疑問三都之然後我問你 你就來跟我吵架那趙偉也站起來了我相信剛剛直播大家看見因為這個茶葉行大家都知道只有你不知道 你說你不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
834.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
836.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
剛剛是你講 你不知道沒有關係 態度就是這樣那就這樣 謝謝 |