| IVOD_ID |
166809 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166809 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-05T12:06:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-05T12:16:43+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b586dc517120c0d702d3011a53eea80ce16c8636dcd6d4218d921e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
邱若華 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:06:17 - 12:16:43 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。
【本次會議僅進行詢答】
【1月5日及8日二天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席 主席請陳主委陳主委請 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
13.686 |
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40.094 |
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好委員長主委好 主委那政府採購法的核心效率還有防弊嘛那說白一點主要就是兩件事嘛一個就是希望事情可以做得更快一點那另外一個就是就是事情不要出事也就是防弊那效率很重要這一點我完全同意那今天我們要請教主委一個更現實還有關鍵的問題喔那我們現在這樣改是不是把更快然後放在出事怎麼辦的前面請主委說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
40.794 |
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我小朋友就是三家改為一家是基於客觀事實的改變現在的網路現在的通訊現在的一些通路跟六十年前七十年前完全不一樣了因為時代已經過去了這個是就是資訊的公開跟以前完全不一樣以前在你要領標你要當事人去縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
64.567 |
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那我還是要提醒主委那現在我們可以看到連小額採購都會出問題那也包括高機密的標案那也有被動手腳的情況下我們真的準備好要把這個競爭的門檻再往下放了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
75.339 |
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101.271 |
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我們如果不往前走就永遠在地踏步而且不是在地踏步是60年前的方法我們先來談這個市場的改動那這一次工業總會的潘理事長他也公開提醒如果取消三家的限制那他擔心的不是效率的問題而是劣幣組良幣那原因很簡單嘛他們的看法是那現在制度至少還有一個底線那不管怎麼樣還是有三家來做比較嘛那如果修法通過一個廠 |
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102.412 |
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128.828 |
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一家廠商就可以來投標就可以公開招標決標那主委您認為市場怎麼解讀這樣這件事但是我也聽到很多採購機關都贊成我們的改我們的修改尤其是縣市政府基層的採購機關贊成的居多數那另外一方面是不是有一個訊號就表示那現在就算他算準沒有人來那就是直接就有一個就有這個機會拿到標案算準沒有人來就有機會調整預算 |
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130.447 |
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153.17 |
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是那主委你認為這樣對誰最有吸引力如果說算準了沒有多少人來等著機關調整預算調整這個經費這個也是一個必端那主委你認為這樣調整之後我必須跟委員報告這個會增加政府的預算支出非常多因為你時間延了之後重新發包重新比方說計劃修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
153.73 |
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167.846 |
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那又來個物調 所以增加很多所以我們認為說我們就會聽各界的意見做適當的修正當然是也要大院委員都能夠認同才有可能修正那工程會你們有沒有去做評估說會吸引什麼樣的廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
170 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
190.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在做調整之後會不會就是反而變成吸引就是最趕最趕賭然後成本最低然後也最趕就是把這個風險轉嫁最快這種廠商他很少有機會一家去投標吧如果是一個工程能夠有意義做有獲利很多廠商都會去投所以您認為很多廠商都會去投因為他不會說不知道而不去投 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
191.167 |
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218.173 |
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是他一定知道所以不是過去說這個微標那我就直接問那您認為是有助於提升競爭力嗎當然有助於提升這個各方面的效率啦或者是決標找到好的廠商這個都是正面的而且我們參考的那主委這樣聽起來還是肯定的那你們有沒有具體還有清楚可以操作的嚴格審查的機制呢就是我們有一些配套措施啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.613 |
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233.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
配套做事是要求呢這個預算通過之後就要對外說明嘛要公告嘛這是什麼樣的配套做事就是因為你們也有提到嘛因為現在歐美他們就是他們一直都是一家 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
233.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
256.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
對 就是一些採購協定也沒有這樣的規定那這個是完全是六七十年前的規定主委你有談到這已經六七十年然後也有提到因為這是根據WTO嘛就是世界貿易組織對 採購協定是沒有這樣的那我也看到美國的制度那他們現在的單一家的投標是高風險不是常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
256.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
283.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那他單一投票他不是放寬他要特別的標記說有例外的狀況那機關也必須要書面說明為什麼只有一家那我們接下來會不會也要要求說也要有書面的說明必須要有市場調查的結果也要說明有沒有替代方案那包括那這些是文件嘛這些是說明嘛那他們也必須要出示文件那他們文件要包括說為什麼沒有辦法競爭那價格合不合理那風險如何被管控我們接下來會這樣子具體要求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
312.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個採購法裡面都有啦風險的評估等等那我們的採購方式包括低價標包括最有利標或者是限制性招標等等各種招標決標的方式都不一樣所以會被誤解說我們只是找特定的一家來就決給他不是啊每個標都要公開的啊公開的我沒有限制只能一家來是每個人都來 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
313.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
每個人都來存在誤解是為什麼因為近年來發生的事情大家也都很清楚像是有人利用小額的採購動手腳也有人把高機密的標案規格洩露出去那這些問題不是因為制度太嚴而是缺乏競爭然後還有外部的制衡所以制度特別容易被操作那我們要怎麼去達到這個外部的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
333.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
弊端当然跟机关有关跟采购机关有关所以我们这个采购法的修正是兼顾效率跟兼顾采购人员他的实务经验所以我们认为说一直批评说一家好像要图利谁一样这是完全是一个错误的解读 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
現在是沒有在批評誰只是我想向主委了解那現行制度下競爭門檻其實還沒有真正的降低那內控就已經管得那麼吃力那修法之後單一的單一家就可以決標那接下來我們內部控管能不能夠承受一定是符合資格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
370.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
391.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
是符合資格那在美國那他們有獨立檢查然後國會的委員也可以及時調閱資料那我們接下來也同樣可以做到嗎監辦監督機關這個採購機關上級就可以監督他工程會是主管機關也隨時可以去了解可以查核所以主計政風也可以會同來開標所以我們的機制是很嚴格 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
391.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
404.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以我們是可以做到像英國這樣子嗎他事後也要公告然後公開使用例外就是有例外的原因然後像包括最您提到就是國內外的就是國內的審查機關然後還有法院可以來做追究嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
405.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
431.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法院我是說他有一個審核的機制嗎因為他們也特別要求在單就是只有一個只有一個的情況之下他們都必須要出示文件也必須要有說明報告那當然就是如果說整個這個經公開招標之後就一家來那這個一家一定要符合採購器官他的條件比方說他是否符合那警署也說明說是什麼樣的什麼樣的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
433.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
459.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他的招標文件他的採購契約招標文件他一定是具有比方說他有多少資本額他有多少時機那他的底價是不是落在這個採購機關的這個底價之下這些都有一定的不是說一家機關因為我們現在是參考參考歐美那他們就是在在他們是也是一樣是公開競爭的那他們必須要技術上沒有辦法被替代然後還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
460.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
482.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
知識產權排他性他們才會使用單一家來去做我們這個招標方式很多種嘛我就說有的是用評選的有的是底價的有的是先評資格然後再來溢價的都有所以是不同的所以這個不是解讀說一家來任何一家我們都要決標給他並不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
500.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為剛才Asway我有提到嘛就是像我們有看到就是國防部最近的案子嘛像一個六億元的國防採購案得標的是一家室內裝修公司那國防部說他合法他在形式上是符合資格的那問題是這樣的結果是正常的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
502.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
523.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
機關他可以去設定他採購的內容他可以要求什麼樣的廠商能夠進來投標比如說剛才資本的有多少時機他曾經做過這個項目有多少時機那做這些要求之後避免這個沒有時機的進入他的這個採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
525.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
548.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
是因為政府的採購它有非常多像國防採購然後還有公共工程嘛然後鐵路還是捷運像這一類的那我們會不會來接下來來做分級化呢我們本來就有分級有具有採購因為像看到國防這個採購的案那我們看到這樣高度專業還有風險極高的採購案在絕標之前都沒有一個機制那到底我們有沒有一個機制來做審核 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
552.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
575.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
國防部他採購我剛剛講過按照他去決定採購區域所以才向主委了解我們到底是靠什麼來做把關他有主管機關也有工程會可以去查核是 目前他說形式上他認為是沒有違法所以今天就是要向主委了解如果我們把這個競爭拿掉之後我們面臨到的風險我們要怎麼去應對呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
578.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
600.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這每一個都有風險三家也有風險你剛才舉國防部這個例子也是在現行的採購法之下發生的風險所以呢我們很多配套措施必須來讓這個一家能夠開標這個修正能夠降低風險這是也是委員所關心的啦那最後那在單一的投標的加嚴審還有他風險緊急的機制啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
602.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
624.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那還沒有被制度化之前那可不可以請工程會明確的承諾我們不會就是冒然的來推動就是取消最低的競爭這個也只有在大院三讀通過之後我們才有可能實施才有可能實施我們希望在這之前就可以明確就是你們已經有制定說那接下來就只剩一家來做法律沒有修正就是為此現行的三家OK好謝謝主委 |