| IVOD_ID |
166799 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166799 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-05T11:09:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-05T11:22:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b581349aae2f5da9e903011a53eea80ce164a653833dddfd2f18c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
許智傑 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:09:30 - 11:22:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。
【本次會議僅進行詢答】
【1月5日及8日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席大家好我們還是請主委陳主委請委員長主委辛苦這個招標真的是一件很兩極化的事情限制三家當然有他的優點那也有他的缺點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
56.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
當然我們現在用優點來往這個方向去我想最重要的缺點要怎麼防避剛才盧委員提到了其實我也深有同感就是說我們假設有95%以上的公務員都很好只有一兩%兩三%不好那這個一兩%兩三%諸位有沒有思考要怎麼去防避 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
59.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這個有相關的法律有相關的法則所以這個少數他要這個從中取巧那三家也一樣有辦法所以主要還是整個所以不管幾家就是說我希望說是不是我們工程會 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
108.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
去幫忙思考房幣的部分有沒有辦法多做一些我們過去就是房幣太多了所有的採購都考慮在房幣沒有考慮在心力所以政府採購法從87年實施到現在整個基礎還是在房幣的角度來限制採購的彈性因為當年有當年的環境現在有現在的環境彈性我們把它擴大但是房幣也沒有辦法去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
133.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
防備就是我剛才我們有一些配套措施啦機關必須預算通過之後就公告然後呢要說明那等標期要長我們其實比較務實的啦就是剛剛盧委員講的其實我也有遇到類似的case啦所以他以前有固定廠商你就怕不知道下來補啦所以我嚴肅就把你刁難啦那這個我們要怎麼樣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
137.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
157.91 |
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去看到底他是做得不好還是被刁難我想這個委員也當過市長是的那委員也當很久了一定接受到很多陳情對不可否認的我們目前中央政府在各地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
159.298 |
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185.044 |
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派出去各地的分屬這一類的因為手裡掌握很多年度預算應該怎麼處理因為我們時間不多我們比較具體一點要怎麼去防這種弊這個要多集合就是說你這個機關它的主管機關或者是首長本身就要注意這些事情如果你一個機關陳情這一類的事情太多經常發生那表示要換人 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
186.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
213.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那表示要移送調查我是建議就是說我們就是有一些具體的去思考一下比如說我以前當市長的時候我也曾經說這個設計跟施工跟建造到底合在一起比較好還是分開比較好那他如果從設計到施工到建造都是同一個人同一家公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
214.921 |
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226.273 |
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會不會比較容易就是自己去主導那把設計跟製造跟監工分開會不會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
228.277 |
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254.613 |
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我們請副主委來跟你回答委員這個大災問那確實在採購食物上面這是兩種不同的思維我們時間不多看那個重點我們講重點看有什麼重點可以處理那針對委員第一個問題就是說怎麼防篤這個承辦人員刁蘭其實他這個行為是違反採購人員的倫理準則只是我們一直以來機關沒有嚴格去執行所以我們前一陣子有用函 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
255.773 |
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283.31 |
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這個通函的話那現在還是有啊現在還 對所以第一個就是說假設進入到我們我講一個比較具體的啦我講一個比較具體的是不是主委跟副主委可以想一下就是說他其實剛盧委員提到有很多很多很多的小案子對不對那每個鄉鎮施工所可能他可以自己做決定嘛對不對那五個也很簡單啊那其實最有利標的好處就是我們大部分在買衣服買房子幹嘛的買車子都是最有利標也沒錯啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
284.486 |
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311.892 |
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但是就是說我原則上是支持最有利標的也支持就是這個三家可以放寬這個我都支持但是我現在在想我們要怎麼樣去避免避免這個弊端比如說我剛剛講這個很好玩我當市長的時候我就把設計跟建造分開我想說這樣比較沒有問題對不對結果還是有問題有一家公司專門在包建造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
312.912 |
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339.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
到最後我才發現怎麼都是這一家這一家都是刁難前面的所以有很多類似這樣子的問題啦那我是覺得就是說怎麼樣才是最好是說我們應該不是針對一個案件而是所有的案件比如說我假設省電燈泡好了我這個區公所做的跟那個區公所做的跟那個鄉公所做的好像類似同樣的東西但是平均價格差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
341.263 |
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370.622 |
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是不是有這個大樹法則可以去思考因為你每次只思考一個案件其實真的都很困難誰對誰錯有些是公務員不對有些是廠商不對那我們被陳情的我們也搞不清楚到底你是刁難還是你品質不好所以我是覺得可能我要提供主委跟副主委就是說我們工程會是不是要做一個不一樣的思考就是說我今天是針對TOTO的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
372.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
385.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
不同單位的採購有沒有辦法去做一個類似的 相近的比較好 謝謝 委員這位意見非常好那我們工程會是有能力取得所有的決標的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
388.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
413.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我們再來研究透過怎麼樣的一個軟體來找出一些異常找出一些異常或找出一些不合理的地方來作為我們可以對這個機關做一些要求改善或說明這樣子的一個方式因為我一直在想我是想說這個方法不錯你們可以思考可以 這個委員這個意見很好因為這個真的是每一個你個別去針對個別案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
416.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
422.451 |
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你搞不清楚啦那另外就是說那個主計跟政風的參與因為現在參與度有多少我請這個主管來跟你說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
430.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
451.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
報告委員之前委員有請我們要去加強這個那我們修了執法把那個得通知把它改成應通知那成立的比率大概從40%已經升至53%了謝謝委員好 謝謝這個部分我跟主委跟大家分享其實政風跟主計看起來大家都比較害怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
452.52 |
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481.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是呢 為什麼我會提出說當然會增加他們的工作啦 比較不好意思啦但是有政風跟主計在就有第三方那有他們在的時候坦白講 你想要作弊啦你想要作弊 至少他們兩個都看過這是一個防弊的概念那另外一個也讓公務員更有擔當的概念就是說他們說一句話說不完 如果叫檢察官起訴啦他可能沒有問題 但是被起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
482.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
502.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後呢 一個案子審了五年 八年這個公務員差不多就被公務員耽誤掉了沒差這幾個優秀的公務員有些人去隨便檢舉 又遇到檢察官又把他起訴你就很衰了像這種東西 為什麼我們其實我認為主計跟政風的加入是保護公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
504.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
528.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
是保護公園 就是說你有家兩女兒在看 家四女兒在看那你可以讓這個採購 大家更公平更符合規定 然後也更難作弊然後他們都在因為你如果只是讓市公所 區公所 鄉公所去做坦白講 有的 我說一批的人不好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
531.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
549.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
如果7%裡面剛好有一個鄉長或是一個區長不好他就都固定這裡有他的班樓嘛我相信那個主委很清楚啦這個班樓其實有的是真的不好的啦要怎麼去防備這個班樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
552.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
574.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們除了法制面之外大概也會定時的針對採購機關辦理採購講習就是採購人員辦理採購講習我是給主委建議講習都沒有政令宣導我是希望說類似我剛才講的有一個大數法則然後去看不同的公所這些小額採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
576.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
602.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
買賣這行 有的是3萬 有的是10萬我看才知道這個這個就可以做一個客觀的比較讓人看不到在這裡這一定有工程介紹才有多少嘛就可以比較可以有機會不會讓他說上下其所你說3萬 4萬 差1萬有什麼環境因素或者是有什麼考量我不知道但是也許有一點小價差差幾倍那就有問題了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
604.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
618.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那我們如果說第一個我是希望說第一個就是這個部分我們工程會做一個思考第二個部分就是剛剛我提到的可能要拜託主席政風辛苦一點其實你們是跟公務員保護的有你們在的大家有沒有跟後輩來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
620.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
648.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那第三個我是希望說剛講到的是說那個固定廠商有一個另外一個不是固定廠商財美有照入來的標準要去用刁蘭這個第三方坦白講工程會是很辛苦啦我來做個案件我也沒辦法處理我來拜託工程會來處理通常是設計的時候設計的太模糊啦什麼是等級品那個設計的太模糊啦這部分我們再來接近那我的意思就是說大的案子其實大部分會到工程會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
650.359 |
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658.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
但是呢 小的案子他可能不見得會到工程會來 很多那這些很多 是不是工程會再想一個機制怎麼去幫助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
661.374 |
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689.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這有時候你看不到 很多啦你從外面看都看不到 到底這件事有作弊 這件事沒作弊你真的不是那麼容易看得出來有些是廠商做不好當然我們要要求 這個我都贊成有些是廠商做不好被刁難的那這個在地方如果在全國各鄉鎮市各縣市有很多的時候你說全部都到工程會來 其實都很困難的所以搞不好在地上有的人 有的工程會有比較多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
691.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
713.586 |
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像這個東西是不是地方有機會有這種機制第三方單位或者是仲裁怎麼樣去讓他地方比較少這種問題有的直轄市他有採購申訴的機制我知道 我是說可以一起想啦就是說從我們工程會的角度因為直轄市 我說的這1%裡面如果剛好是某一個管理商現在南投有一個 你看破400多年那個好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
720.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
746.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
剛才有一個集中管理局你剛才有沒有處理所以我是覺得就是說是不是中央還是有一個這樣子一個整體的思考那針對我剛提到這些問題做一個考量這樣好不好好最後我再小小的要求一下就是我們那個主委有去看過的高雄機場國道7號高鐵延伸這個都主委有請進去拜託主委再給我們關心一下進度讓它如期如止高鐵延伸現在在環評當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
748.778 |
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761.674 |
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辦理環評不是環評審查這個有點時間對就是這三項這三項現在都是我們高雄重大建設我知道那希望說主委你都有親自去看過我們也非常的感謝那後續也希望說繼續幫忙給我們復讐讓這個工程如期如止好好謝謝 |