| IVOD_ID |
166773 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166773 |
| 日期 |
2026-01-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-01-05T09:42:58+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-01-05T09:53:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8c294bbfbc570b585035cc643b4f70b63011a53eea80ce167d23619189f10e6ce3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡其昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:42:58 - 09:53:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-01-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員、交通部、國防部、法務部、司法院、勞動部及行政院主計總處就「公告修正《政府採購法》，以求精進政府採購效率、提高重大工程進度品質、堵絕惡質廠商投標可能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查(一)委員黃捷等17人擬具「政府採購法增訂第十七條之一條文草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「政府採購法第八十七條、第九十四條及第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員賴士葆等20人、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人及(六)委員賴瑞隆等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十四條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「政府採購法第九十四條及第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員萬美玲等21人、(九)委員游顥等23人、(十)委員羅廷瑋等16人、(十一)委員林倩綺等24人、(十二)台灣民眾黨黨團、(十三)委員馬文君等16人、(十四)委員羅智強等17人、(十五)委員翁曉玲等17人及(十六)委員黃健豪等18人分別擬具「政府採購法第九十八條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員許智傑等17人擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條、第一百零二條及第一百零三條條文修正草案」案、(十八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「政府採購法第一百零一條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等20人及(二十)委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「政府採購法第一百零三條條文修正草案」案。
【本次會議僅進行詢答】
【1月5日及8日二天一次會】） |
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主席請陳主委陳主委請蔡委員麥克風接得開嗎好 謝謝委員長主委早主委我想這個前面兩位委員的質詢雖然他們兩個跟我都不同黨不過我覺得有一些建議特別是他們理性提出的建議我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.752 |
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應該公共工程會要適度的聽聽並且做一些研議的工作為什麼我這樣講其實我們要先讓社會大眾並不能夠因為在朝野或者說台灣政治社會對立的情況底下很多事情都被混淆也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.465 |
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我相信剛剛包括前面委員去提到這些所謂社會爭議的這些標案我們要先確定他有沒有違採購法如果行政部門認為OK在招標的程序都沒有違法甚至有一些案子提起訴訟法院也認為沒有違法這是一個在法律程式上我們面對社會爭議的案子大家就依法行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
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但是主委也要有一個同樣有一個觀點就是社會一般大眾的認知是什麼譬如說資本額太低飆很大的案子那這時候我們會告訴他他能不能夠履約啊可是主委你也知道有些台灣很多企業他很喜歡把資本額做小然後獲利能力變得很大他EPS可能1000元因為他資本額太小了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
110.25 |
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132.718 |
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可是對一般社會大眾的認知這個程式而言這個那麼小的公司去吃那麼大飆那麼大的金額大家先天就會認為懷疑會覺得怪怪的會覺得這個沒有問題嗎所以這個會挑戰一般社會的認知就像我們要把三家 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
134.842 |
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146.867 |
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過去我們叫做要最少要三間來標啦我們現在把那個三家廢除一家我想剛剛我好像在路上有聽到那個數我們有公布一個數據嘛就是 |
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148.949 |
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流標的因為只有因為標不到三家而沒辦法決標的案子有多少件第一次決標流標的是不足三家是三百七十以上對對所以在我們透過科學數字的管理我覺得這個比例很高嘛所以效率就會下降這個就不是常態對對對所以呢但是社會為什麼我剛剛講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.426 |
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數字的論述這個沒有問題我都尊重因為公共懲惡會要提出這個修法也一定有一個科學的根據有一個在實務面操作裡面的需求甚至公共懲惡會認為下錯藥了就是我們要防弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.067 |
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房幣的邏輯不應該三家或許這個都你們曾經在內部開會討論過等等的問題但一樣的道理他又要挑戰一次社會的認知社會認知會認為啊怎麼會以前三間在飆啊其實社會也不一定知道說很多三間在飆齁其實都是很認真飆的那一家去找兩家不大想飆的啊不一定要三間不然你們兩個來倒飆啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
213.752 |
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232.726 |
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他們沒有 不一定有作弊喔他們不一定有作弊但他可能因為他就沒有人想做但是就老是他一個人想做然後他一直流標啊所以呢他就去找兩個朋友說你兩個來標他也沒有 兩個也沒有串通也沒有做什麼這個案盤的交易但他為了要趕快把這事情標到把他執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
233.737 |
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所以就會有這個現象的產生所以我們也覺得所以機關買機票要三家以上對對對所以這個就是我們過去在買一張機票要三家以上所以沒有三家以上被起訴沒錯所以這裡面有很多的問題所以你們才會提這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
249.887 |
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但我的意思是說有時候這些修法都要跟社會認知要做一定程度的說明跟解釋也就是大家想像裡面不合理大家想像裡面超乎他個人的主觀認知那這時候我們可能就要一點社會說服跟溝通的過程否則我們要挑戰的是社會的認知這個叫約定俗成這個叫它刻板印象這個叫它既定的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.206 |
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301.257 |
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要挑戰這個 主委這要有一些論述也可能要有一些時間不然我們會面臨很大的挑戰就是說大家認為這怎麼合理 這怎麼合得來可是我們其實在觀光層我會大家專家學者你們去討論然後實務面去看很多不合理一定要規定三加其實它是產生很多的問題不合理所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
302.17 |
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327.56 |
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挑戰大家都希望連能政府要清連又要有能力就是有效率啦大家都希望建立一個連能政府但連跟能之間常常會相互抵銷啦會相互抵銷那怎麼樣不讓兩者相互抵銷兩者可以相輔相成然後更連更能我認為這個跟很多時候都會跟社會的既定印象 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
328.683 |
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不一定是對的既定印象但它就是社會的一個既定印象它會產生干戈或衝突所以我剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.96 |
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365.373 |
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的想法裡面我一直想跟主委討論這個問題就是說你們要做這些事情本席不會說反對啦但是呢我認為那個社會說服溝通怎麼樣提出數據來告訴工程委員會沒有在新的修法裡面我們沒有任何的想要讓建立這個聯能政府有下降甚至我可以讓他提升我覺得這個這個可能在要有一點說服的過程或者怎麼說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
366.733 |
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381.375 |
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這個已經是三家以上這是70年前的事情一甲子的那70年前跟現在的通訊環境完全不一樣完全不同不同的通訊環境然後以前公告在縣府門口 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
407.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
公司本人要去領標 外面就圍起來啦投標也是 你本人要去投標外面就擋著你 不讓你去投標那現在電子領標 電子投標所有的公告都在電子採購網那我們還有其他配套措施機關預算通過的時候適當時機 他就必須公告這個採購預算 採購的相關計畫所以等標期也拉長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
408.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
415.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以我們雖然說改成一家就可以開票那反而比例反而會促成更多人去投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
416.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
423.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
反而會刺激更多人去投標會減少一家投標的這個情形這是我的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
446.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但我就要講就是說他是我們挑戰的不是我跟你講的不是你現在講這些東西的對錯而是一般民眾對於你剛剛所講到為什麼當時要三加來標他有一個歷史的因素那這個歷史因素會導致當時雖然這樣做當時是這樣做可是他後遺症很多那現在的環境又走到哪裡根本不需要這樣做所以以前我們治療肚子痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
當時的肚子痛的用藥雖然它很多副作用但是當時它是最有效的方法現在科技藥已經走到這裡了我們治療肚子痛根本就不需要這個我們有新的藥這新的藥吃下去不但肚子痛更快好而且還沒有後遺症我的意思就是說你要去說服不大家都習慣了嘛對不對 我阿嬤我肚子痛她老是拿那個她有教阿嬤不用用這個現在還有更厲害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
503.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
522.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
各位你懂我在講什麼巴勒葉 巴辣對 以前那個配方那個秘方很多所以這就是我說的社會認知以前那很有效但是社會不知道公共財產委員會你們經過了什麼樣的時間的演變很多的方法所以今天已經要希望走到這裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
542.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以我認為這個很重要第二個我們這個採購法裡面我有一個像96條我們這一次修法裡面我看到我們還是沒有去修說我們這裡面96條寫說機關於招標文件中規定優先採購取得政府認可之環境保護標章使用許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
543.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
555.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但我看現在環境部基本上在這個資源循環推動法裡面他已經規定他已經不再去談環境標章的這個產品他是直接跟你講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
558.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
575.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個依22條核准之循環產品或循環服務或其他綠色意涵之產品或服務換言之在環境部的資源循環推動法裡面它其實更廣泛的在說明這個所謂的綠色採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
577.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
603.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
但我們好像還只限於環境標章主委 這個應該要好 這個我們會遵照委員的意見來做修正應該納進 現在新的資源循環推動法也行政院還正在審議啦對對對所以應該不要 他修好了結果我們的公共整合採購法又用舊的邏輯跟概念在講好 這部分我們遵照委員的意見來修正好 謝謝 謝謝 |