| IVOD_ID |
166758 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/166758 |
| 日期 |
2025-12-31 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-12-31T11:44:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-12-31T12:00:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c2638f9bef880eb15678e6a7f7d73a44b1ecef7239bdfb16d53fbbf289ff3135d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:44:02 - 12:00:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-12-31T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請法務部部長率所屬相關單位、司法院副秘書長、內政部警政署、行政院國土安全辦公室就「無差別攻擊犯罪事件之防治與量刑檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
(一)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「政務人員法草案」案。
(二)委員羅智強等19人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案。
【第（二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【僅進行詢答】） |
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好 謝謝主席這邊首先先有請司法院的李廳長還有書記廳的廳長 |
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18.319 |
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李聽長好這次大法官做出五人判決我想也引起了全社會的嘩然我首先想請教聽長你之前本來就是刑事庭的法官我想請問一下在一般你們做你們在合議庭裡面如果說法官有人拒絕評議的時候你們會怎麼處理 |
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42.492 |
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根據我們的經驗沒有發生這樣的事情如果有人拒絕評議你們會怎麼樣案子會一直擱著嘛是不是案子會被擱著等到有法官或是說是在換另外一個法官的時候加入評議你們才會開始審議 |
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63.547 |
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87.593 |
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我們一直沒有這樣的經驗從來沒有過這樣的經驗民聽法官也沒有應該是您是民聽法官嗎我之前是辦理民視事務那也跟委員說明在我的審判經驗中我沒有遇過和議庭的法官拒絕參與評議的情形所以在你們規則裡面沒有針對如果說有法官拒絕評議的時候怎麼處理嗎 |
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93.665 |
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因為在一般的法院裡面其實我們會有因為一般的法院的法官人員會比較充裕假設 我說假設如果真的遇到有法官持續的拒絕參與評議 |
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那可能在必要的情形下會去變動相關的事物分配那或者是就換別的法官來參與評議嘛對不對也就是你們還是要達到全部的法官都要這個一起參與評議才可以做成裁判才可以做成判決對不對按照你們現在做法不就是這樣嗎 |
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153.162 |
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委員在一般的法院法官緣而充足的情形但是憲法法庭沒有這樣子的狀況憲法法庭的大法官沒有其他沒有代理的問題所以要等到他補足了之後才開始審議嘛這是最簡單不過的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
160.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
今天五人五位大法官做出的判決他就是明顯違反了不管是舊制或新制的限訴法的規定他就是一個違法的組成然後又做成了這個判決請問這兩位法官就是如果在一般的實務法事務上這個裁判如果說是違反這個法定的組織程序這個裁判是怎麼樣是不是自恥當仁無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
189.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
201.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們去講一般的法理如果是在一般法院部分是不會發生這樣的事情沒有啦 如果發生了呢這叫組織不合法的問題那可能就被上訴審就撤銷掉了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
205.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
225.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
好 所以撤銷 所以就代表什麼 就還是違法嘛對不對 違法無效的判決才會被撤銷會因為組織不合法而被撤銷對 因為組織不合法而被撤銷好 那接下來我想請問針對大法官組織不合法所作成的判決誰來約束 誰來制衡違憲違法的大法官這個部分可能我們不太適合回答這個是憲法法庭的獨立的運作那可能我們現在我們有沒有這個規定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.691 |
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266.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們憲法訴訟法裡面有沒有這樣規定針對違法違憲大法官違反這個組織法定程序所做出來的判決我們現在有沒有任何究竟程序我想跟您說明現在沒有一個大法官解釋或是憲法法庭的判決是組織不合法好很好也所以從我們行憲我們大法官會議組成以來到現在從來沒有出現過任何一例的五人判決對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
283.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我沒說錯吧 從來沒有過在過去 我們的大法官會議甚至還要達到四分之三或是三分之二的門檻才可以這個開始 這個會議組成到開始評議所以 提高大法官人數的門檻這個並沒有違法 也沒有違憲在過去就是這麼做 而且實施了非常長的一段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
298.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
324.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
今天這五位大法官真的很勇敢很有勇氣他創了舉世無雙的案例我們現在看到從來沒有一個什麼憲法法院的會出現有在大法官明顯不足的情況之下讓自己跳下來做判決而且還可以說這個拒絕評議拒絕參與評議的法官他們不合群 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
325.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
344.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以排除一級我們五個人自己做就好了接下來這五個大法官如果說有兩個人認為說我今天這個參與我也不想參與評議或是我持反對意見好沒關係我也排除像三個大法官然後過半數一個大法官就可以做成判決了我在這裡想要告訴大家的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
350.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
374.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們中華民國的憲法法庭真的是鬧了全世界最大的笑話做了最荒謬的事情我都不知道未來其他的憲法法院德國 日本 法國等等這些憲法法庭或他們的憲法委員會來台灣參訪的時候你們要怎麼去講這個事情丟臉至極好 請回 兩位請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
377.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
403.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那麼今天吳斯堯委員在他質詢的時候又躍提 跳題然後在批評我們今天所提出的這個《政務人員法》草案還有批評我提的《公投法》的修法以及昨天才提案的修憲案有關於要恢復人民有權可以提案罷免總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
405.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
428.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我時常懷疑就是 我們這群民進黨的委員們他們到底了不了解什麼叫權力分立立法委員的職權 他的功能在哪裡是要去制衡行政權 卻要去監督行政部門今天我們的立法院裡面 我們看到民進黨委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
430.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
451.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他們不僅沒有好好的去監督行政院為什麼不依法編列預算為什麼不依法執行反而處處在包庇行政權這是我感到非常遺憾而且也不齒的地方到底誰不事任 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
453.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
468.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
大家看得很清楚啊 民進黨的委員到現在為止 他們有沒有針對我們的這個相關的法案有提出對岸行政機關也是消極 完全不提對岸好 那接下來我要請全序部還有考試院是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
477.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
503.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
秘書長在你們的報告裡面也講得很清楚從民國84年立法院作出決議要求考試院要提出相關的政務人員法草案之後從87年到101年你們曾經五度提案108年的時候其實權敘部自己也有再提了一次案只是說到了考試院然後後來也許找了行政院一起會商之後就沒有再提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
504.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
524.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
過去認為政務人員法的主管機關考試院很有GAS擔當下來依據憲法的規定就是由考試院可以來作為政務人員法的這個主管機關政務人員的退府條例也是你們定的是什麼原因造成你們現在的立場大轉彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
527.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
542.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
其實過去你講那個以前那一段立法院的決議是大概30年前民國84年蠻久一段時間以前那當時考試院應該是尊重立法院的這個決議所以就開始進行這個工作那108年呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
544.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
556.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那108年的部分當然就是說我們內部在討論以前有這個提案後來沒有一直沒有審過那所以全區部這邊要不要續推這個工作那在院裡面討論的時候因為我們一定要徵求行政院的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
557.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
567.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那這個時候跟行政院這邊就開始出現選擇上的區分 請問一下當時行政院的意見是誰的意見當時代表是誰 行政院主要是人事總署人事總署當時人事長是誰 人事長是就是現在的市部長所以市部長你當時在108年的時候你反對權敘部的提案那你現在當權敘部長的時候你當然自然而然也反對這個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
578.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
590.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
變成說整個政務人員法沒有辦法推進看起來關鍵也是在施部長您身上也不只這樣因為你從之前你就反對到現在你也反對好 那接下來請教一下我想請那個蘇人事長好 人事長那個施部長認為考試院不適合擔任政務人員法的主管機關所以人事總處要扛下這個責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
608.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
624.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
事實上 施部長也不是說他不適合沒有 我現在只問你你要不要扛下這個責任因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
636.534 |
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660.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個法案大體說明的時候有講我們現在各行各業都有專法唯獨政務人員法沒有專法政務官掌握多少的行政資源擁有多大的權利他的行為竟然可以不受規範更何況在我本席所提的政務人員法草案裡面我不是只有去約束限制政務官的行為我甚至還保障他的權利這些難道不應該定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
665.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
689.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
今天權序部失職人事行政總處也是怠惰看到我們這些法案早就提出來了吳委員的法案吳宗憲委員的法案在今年的六月就已經審查過到現在為止你們沒有任何動作沒有提出任何的對案之後我們通過了然後你們又說這都是立法委員提的案然後你們再去申請釋憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
692.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
705.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我真的很看不下去現在我們行政機關的這樣一個態度尤其是考試院請你們回去想想當時五權分立的這個國父創立五權憲法對考試院有多大的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
711.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
733.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
結果你們現在完全鬆手一攤 完全就是不管只管文官 事務官對於真正擁有權力的政務人員 你們卻擺爛各位很棒 條件憲法實現上的確設計還是作為文官法庭接下來我要再請教監察院的兩位部長可以請回 請教監察院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
738.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
768.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
請問現在公職人員利益衝突迴避法裡面誰是主管機關哪一個機關是主管機關公務人員利益衝突迴避法本院財產承包處是主政的機關財法負責財法簡單來說可能就是監察院跟法務部反正你們當時推來推去那麼現在的這個利益衝突法有沒有處罰 罰款的規定有有吧然後有沒有彈劾的規定可以送懲戒的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
769.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
797.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對 如果認為說有缺失有嗎 所以在一個法律裡面同時出現有行政法 有懲戒法這並不衝突嘛不過要跟委員報告就是說因為在執行的層面上面我們常常會主管機關的解釋跟我們在裁罰執行的時候常常會有一些爭議所以我們才會在書面意見表達說如果可以的話這個部分其實是由主管機關來負責行政調查之後做出裁罰這樣的可能權責相符會是比較好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
798.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
822.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個部分我們之後可以再討論但是我只是要講就是說是在現行的法規裡面並不是說沒有這樣子的一個情況好那最後我可能最後一個問題我想請教法務部有關於隨機殺人的問題因為今天其實在之前的委員都已經有提到了所以我在這裡我就不重複我現在只是想要請教法務部的就是說有關於隨機殺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
825.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
829.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
殺人罪我們殺人罪有多久沒有修了殺人罪最近有修增加那個虐殺幼童的那一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
846.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
866.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
除了越炸越痛之外對於像這種隨機殺人的犯罪行為過去到現在法務部從來沒有研擬要怎麼樣來規範相關的犯罪行為嗎我們要不要修殺人罪或者是說在殘害人群自罪條例裡面是不是也應該要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
867.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
888.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個有關你委員關心這個有殘害人群自罪條例有相關的規定那另外但是它有針對像這種只是因為它是個殘害人群它是針對特定的團體但是對於不特定的多數人呢它這部分其實可以用刑法五四七條來做良形的一個重要的所以只是良形但是回到我剛剛講的犯罪構成要件的部分其實也要檢討啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
889.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
916.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們看到德國法國等等這些國家他們其實對於殺人罪的犯罪構成要件甚至把這種對於不特定的多數人以危險的方式去殺害殺人的這樣的這個犯罪構成要件他們都寫定在明定在這個殺人罪裡面所以本席的建議就是說希望你們能夠去好好的研議檢討隨機殺人就無差別殺人要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
917.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
944.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
定定獨立的犯罪的罪名或者是說我們現在修正殺人罪或者是殘害人群治罪條例裡面的部分的這些這個犯罪的這個犯罪過程要件其實是可以再去針對我們剛剛講的無差別殺人的這樣的行為類型去做更具體的規範我覺得我們法務部不要怠惰好不好你們每年的立法計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
946.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
972.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
應該把這些都要納入我們看那個外國立法一直這麼規定的會期的立法計畫可以把這個相關的殺人罪還有剛剛講差案人權之罪條例等等的規定都可以併入考量積極的去提出相關的這個修法不要每次都是跑在我們立法委員後面好嗎我們作為那個請你們要去進行檢討是好 以上謝謝好 謝謝 |